>> Announcer: The cube's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) (background indistinct chatter) >> Good morning from Barcelona, everyone. It's theCUBE live at MWC23, day three of our four days of coverage. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. Dave, we have had some great conversations. Can't believe it's day three already. Anything sticking out at you from a thematic perspective that really caught your eye the last couple days? >> I guess I go back to kind of our experience with sort of the generalized world of information technology and a lot of the parallels between what's been happening in other parts of the economy and what's happening in the telecom space now. So it helps me understand some of the complexity when I tie it back to things that I'm aware of >> A lot of complexity, but a big ecosystem that's growing. We're going to be talking more about the ecosystem next and what they're doing to really enable customers CSPs to deliver services. We've got two guests here, Tammy Wyman joins us the Global head of Partners Telco at AWS. And Kurt Schaubach, CTO of Federated Wireless. Welcome to theCUBE Guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you here, day three. Lots of announcements, lots of news at MWC. But Tammy, there's been a lot of announcements from partners with AWS this week. Talk to us a little bit more about first of all, the partner program and then let's unpack some of those announcements. One of them is with Federated Wireless. >> Sure. Yeah. So AWS created the partner program 10 years ago when they really started to understand the value of bringing together the ecosystem. So, I think we're starting to see how this is becoming a reality. So now we 100,000 partners later, 150 countries, 70% of those partners are outside of the US. So truly the global nature and partners being ISVs, GSIs. And then in the telco space, we're actually looking at how we help CSBs become partners of AWS and bring new revenue streams. So that's how we start having the discussions around Federated Wireless. >> Talk a little bit about Federated Wireless, Kurt, give the audience an overview of what you guys are doing and then maybe give us some commentary on the partnership. >> Sure. So we're a shared spectrum and private wireless company, and we actually started working with AWS about five years ago to take this model that we developed to perfect the use of shared spectrum to enable enterprise communications and bring the power of 5G to the enterprise to bring it to all of the AWS customers and partners. So through that now through we're one of the partner network participants. We're working very closely with the AWS team on bringing this, really unique form of connectivity to all sorts of different enterprise use cases from solving manufacturing and warehouse logistics issues to providing connectivity to mines, enhancing the experience for students on a university campus. So it's a really exciting partnership. Everything that we deliver on an end-to-end basis from design deployment to bringing the infrastructure on-prem, all runs on AWS. (background indistinct chatter) >> So a lot of the conversations that we've had sort of start with this concept of the radio access network and frankly in at least the public domain cellular sites. And so all of a sudden it's sort of grounded in this physical reality of these towers with these boxes of equipment on the tower, at the base of the tower, connected to other things. How does AWS and Federated Wireless, where do you fit in that model in terms of equipment at the base of a tower versus what having that be off-premises in some way or another. Kind of give us more of a flavor for the kind of physical reality of what you guys are doing? >> Yeah, I'll start. >> Yeah, Tammy. >> I'll hand it over to the real expert but from an AWS perspective, what we're finding is really I don't know if it's even a convergence or kind of a delaying of the network. So customers are, they don't care if they're on Wi-Fi if they're on public spectrum, if they're on private spectrum, what they want are networks that are able to talk to each other and to provide the right connectivity at the right time and with the right pricing model. So by moving to the cloud that allows us that flexibility to be able to offer the quality of service and to be able to bring in a larger ecosystem of partners as with the networks are almost disaggregated. >> So does the AWS strategy focus solely on things that are happening in, say, AWS locations or AWS data centers? Or is AWS also getting into the arena of what I would refer to as an Outpost in an AWS parlance where physical equipment that's running a stack might actually also be located physically where the communications towers are? What does that mix look like in terms of your strategy? >> Yeah, certainly as customers are looking at hybrid cloud environments, we started looking at how we can use Outpost as part of the network. So, we've got some great use cases where we're taking Outpost into the edge of operators networks, and really starting to have radio in the cloud. We've launched with Dish earlier, and now we're starting to see some other announcements that we've made with Nokia about having ran in the cloud as well. So using Outpost, that's one of our key strategies. It creates, again, a lot of flexibility for the hybrid cloud environment and brings a lot of that compute power to the edge of the network. >> Let's talk about some of the announcements. Tammy was reading that AWS is expanding, its telecom and 5g, private 5G network support. You've also unveiled the AWS Telco Network Builder service. Talk about that, who that's targeted for. What does an operator do with AWS on this? Or maybe you guys can talk about that together. >> Sure. Would you like to start? I can talk. All right. So from the network builder, it's aimed at the, I would say the persona that it's aimed at would be the network engineer within the CSPs. And there was a bit of a difficulty when you want to design a telco network on AWS versus the way that the network engineers would traditionally design. So I'm going to call them protocols, but you know I can imagine saying, "I really want to build this on the cloud, but they're making me move away from my typical way that I design a network and move it into a cloud world." So what we did was really kind of create this template saying, "You can build the network as you always do and we are going to put the magic behind it to translate it into a cloud world." So just really facilitating and taking some of the friction out of the building of the network. >> What was the catalyst for that? I think Dish and Swisscom you've been working with but talk about the catalyst for doing that and how it's facilitating change because part of that's change management with how network engineers actually function and how they work. >> Absolutely, yeah. And we're looking, we listen to customers and we're trying to understand what are those friction points? What would make it easier? And that was one that we heard consistently. So we wanted to apply a bit of our experience and the way that we're able to use data translate that using code so that you're building a network in your traditional way, and then it kind of spits out what's the formula to build the network in the cloud. >> Got it. Kurt, talk about, yeah, I saw that there was just an announcement that Federated Wireless made JBG Smith. Talk to us more about that. What will federated help them to create and how are you all working together? >> Sure. So JBG Smith is the exclusive redeveloper of an area just on the other side of the Potomac from Washington DC called National Landing. And it's about half the size of Manhattan. So it's an enormous area that's getting redeveloped. It's the home of Amazon's new HQ two location. And JBG Smith is investing in addition to the commercial real estate, digital place making a place where people live, work, play, and connect. And part of that is bringing an enhanced level of connectivity to people's homes, their residents, the enterprise, and private wireless is a key component of that. So when we talk about private wireless, what we're doing with AWS is giving an enterprise the freedom to operate a network independent of a mobile network operator. So that means everything from the ran to the core to the applications that run on this network are sort of within the domain of the enterprise merging 5G and edge compute and driving new business outcomes. That's really the most important thing. We can talk a lot about 5G here at MWC about what the enterprise really cares about are new business outcomes how do they become more efficient? And that's really what private wireless helps enable. >> So help us connect the dots. When we talk about private wireless we've definitely been in learning mode here. Well, I'll speak for myself going around and looking at some of the exhibits and seeing how things work. And I know that I wasn't necessarily a 100% clear on this connection between a 5G private wireless network today and where Wi-Fi still comes into play. So if I am a new resident in this area, happily living near the amazing new presence of AWS on the East coast, and I want to use my mobile device how am I connected into that private wireless network? What does that look like as a practical matter? >> So that example that you've just referred to is really something that we enable through neutral host. So in fact, what we're able to do through this private network is also create carrier connectivity. Basically create a pipe almost for the carriers to be able to reach a consumer device like that. A lot of private wireless is also driving business outcomes with enterprises. So work that we're doing, like for example, with the Cal Poly out in California, for example is to enable a new 5G innovation platform. So this is driving all sorts of new 5G research and innovation with the university, new applications around IoT. And they need the ability to do that indoors, outdoors in a way that's sort of free from the domain of connectivity to a a mobile network operator and having the freedom and flexibility to do that, merging that with edge compute. Those are some really important components. We're also doing a lot of work in things like warehouses. Think of a warehouse as being this very complex RF environment. You want to bring robotics you want to bring better inventory management and Wi-Fi just isn't an effective means of providing really reliable indoor coverage. You need more secure networks you need lower latency and the ability to move more data around again, merging new applications with edge compute and that's where private wireless really shines. >> So this is where we do the shout out to my daughter Rachel Nicholson, who is currently a junior at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Rachel, get plenty of sleep and get your homework done. >> Lisa: She better be studying. >> I held up my mobile device and I should have said full disclosure, we have spotty cellular service where I live. So I think of this as a Wi-Fi connected device, in fact. So maybe I confuse the issue at least. >> Tammy, talk to us a little bit about the architecture from an AWS perspective that is enabling JBG Smith, Cal Poly is this, we're talking an edge architecture, but give us a little bit more of an understanding of what that actually technically looks like. >> Alright, I would love to pass this one over to Kurt. >> Okay. >> So I'm sorry, just in terms of? >> Wanting to understand the AWS architecture this is an edge based architecture hosted on what? On AWS snow, application storage. Give us a picture of what that looks like. >> Right. So I mean, the beauty of this is the simplicity in it. So we're able to bring an AWS snowball, snow cone, edge appliance that runs a pack of core. We're able to run workloads on that locally so some applications, but we also obviously have the ability to bring that out to the public cloud. So depending on what the user application is, we look at anything from the AWS snow family to Outpost and sort of develop templates or solutions depending on what the customer workloads demand. But the innovation that's happened, especially around the pack core and how we can make that so compact and able to run on such a capable appliance is really powerful. >> Yeah, and I will add that I think the diversification of the different connectivity modules that we have a lot of them have been developed because of the needs from the telco industry. So the adaptation of Outpost to run into the edge, the snow family. So the telco industry is really leading a lot of the developments that AWS takes to market in the end because of the nature of having to have networks that are able to disconnect, ruggedize environments, the latency, the numerous use cases that our telco customers are facing to take to their end customers. So like it really allows us to adapt and bring the right network to the right place and the right environment. And even for the same customer they may have different satellite offices or remote sites that need different connectivity needs. >> Right. So it sounds like that collaboration between AWS and telco is quite strong and symbiotic, it sounds like. >> Tammy: Absolutely. >> So we talked about a number of the announcements in our final minutes. I want to talk about integrated private wireless that was just announced last week. What is that? Who are the users going to be? And I understand T-Mobile is involved there. >> Yes. Yeah. So this is a program that we launched based on what we're seeing is kind of a convergence of the ecosystem of private wireless. So we wanted to be able to create a program which is offering spectrum that is regulated as well. And we wanted to offer that on in a more of a multi country environment. So we launched with T-Mobile, Telephonica, KDDI and a number of other succeed, as a start to start being able to bring the regulated spectrum into the picture and as well other ISVs who are going to be bringing unique use cases so that when you look at, well we've got the connectivity into this environment, the mine or the port, what are those use cases? You know, so ISVs who are providing maybe asset tracking or some of the health and safety and we bring them in as part of the program. And I think an important piece is the actual discoverability of this, because when you think about that if you're a buyer on the other side, like where do I start? So we created a portal with this group of ISVs and partners so that one could come together and kind of build what are my needs? And then they start picking through and then the ecosystem would be recommended to them. So it's a really a way to discover and to also procure a private wireless network much more easily than could be done in the past. >> That's a great service >> And we're learning a lot from the market. And what we're doing together in our partnership is through a lot of these sort of ruggedized remote location deployments that we're doing, mines, clearing underbrush and forest forest areas to prevent forest fires. There's a tremendous number of applications for private wireless where sort of the conventional carrier networks just aren't prioritized to serve. And you need a different level of connectivity. Privacy is big concern as well. Data security. Keeping data on premise, which is a another big application that we were able to drive through these edge compute platforms. >> Awesome. Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the program talking about what AWS Federated are doing together and how you're really helping to evolve the telco landscape and make life ultimately easier for all the Nicholsons to connect over Wi-Fi, our private 5g. >> Keep us in touch. And from two Californians you had us when you said clear the brush, prevent fires. >> You did. Thanks guys, it was a pleasure having you on the program. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. For our guest and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from our third day of coverage of MWC23. Stick around Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCube's first day of coverage of MWC 23 from Barcelona, Spain. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson. I'm literally in between two Daves. We've had a great first day of coverage of the event. There's been lots of conversations, Dave, on disaggregation, on the change of mobility. I want to be able to get your perspectives from both of you on what you saw on the show floor, what you saw and heard from our guests today. So we'll start with you, Dave V. What were some of the things that were our takeaways from day one for you? >> Well, the big takeaway is the event itself. On day one, you get a feel for what this show is like. Now that we're back, face-to-face kind of pretty much full face-to-face. A lot of excitement here. 2000 plus exhibitors, I mean, planes, trains, automobiles, VR, AI, servers, software, I mean everything. I mean, everybody is here. So it's a really comprehensive show. It's not just about mobile. That's why they changed the name from Mobile World Congress. I think the other thing is from the keynotes this morning, I mean, you heard, there's a lot of, you know, action around the telcos and the transformation, but in a lot of ways they're sort of protecting their existing past from the future. And so they have to be careful about how fast they move. But at the same time if they don't move fast, they're going to get disrupted. We heard some complaints, essentially, you know, veiled complaints that the over the top guys aren't paying their fair share and Telco should be able to charge them more. We heard the chairman of Ericsson talk about how we can't let the OTTs do that again. We're going to charge directly for access through APIs to our network, to our data. We heard from Chris Lewis. Yeah. They've only got, or maybe it was San Ji Choha, how they've only got eight APIs. So, you know the developers are the ones who are going to actually build out the innovation at the edge. The telcos are going to provide the connectivity and the infrastructure companies like Dell as well. But it's really to me all about the developers. And that's where the action's going to be. And it's going to be interesting to see how the developers respond to, you know, the gun to the head. If you want access, you're going to have to pay for it. Now maybe there's so much money to be made that they'll go for it, but I feel like there's maybe a different model. And I think some of the emerging telcos are going to say, you know what, here developers, here's a platform, have at it. We're not going to charge you for all the data until you succeed. Then we're going to figure out a monetization model. >> Right. A lot of opportunity for the developer. That skillset is certainly one that's in demand here. And certainly the transformation of the telecom industry is, there's a lot of conundrums that I was hearing going on today, kind of chicken and egg scenarios. But Dave, you had a chance to walk around the show floor. We were here interviewing all day. What were some of the things that you saw that really stuck out to you? >> I think I was struck by how much attention was being paid to private 5G networks. You sort of read between the lines and it appears as though people kind of accept that the big incumbent telecom players are going to be slower to move. And this idea of things like open RAN where you're leveraging open protocols in a stack to deliver more agility and more value. So it sort of goes back to the generalized IT discussion of moving to cloud for agility. It appears as though a lot of players realize that the wild wild west, the real opportunity, is in the private sphere. So it's really interesting to see how that works, how 5G implemented into an environment with wifi how that actually works. It's really interesting. >> So it's, obviously when you talk to companies like Dell, I haven't hit HPE yet. I'm going to go over there and check out their booth. They got an analyst thing going on but it's really early days for them. I mean, they started in this business by taking an X86 box, putting a name on it, you know, that sounded like it was edged, throwing it over, you know, the wall. That's sort of how they all started in this business. And now they're, you know, but they knew they had to form partnerships. They had to build purpose-built systems. Now with 16 G out, you're seeing that. And so it's still really early days, talking about O RAN, open RAN, the open RAN alliance. You know, it's just, I mean, not even, the game hasn't even barely started yet but we heard from Dish today. They're trying to roll out a massive 5G network. Rakuten is really focused on sort of open RAN that's more reliable, you know, or as reliable as the existing networks but not as nearly as huge a scale as Dish. So it's going to take a decade for this to evolve. >> Which is surprising to the average consumer to hear that. Because as far as we know 5G has been around for a long time. We've been talking about 5G, implementing 5G, you sort of assume it's ubiquitous but the reality is it is just the beginning. >> Yeah. And you know, it's got a fake 5G too, right? I mean you see it on your phone and you're like, what's the difference here? And it's, you know, just, >> Dave N.: What does it really mean? >> Right. And so I think your point about private is interesting, the conversation Dave that we had earlier, I had throughout, hey I don't think it's a replacement for wifi. And you said, "well, why not?" I guess it comes down to economics. I mean if you can get the private network priced close enough then you're right. Why wouldn't it replace wifi? Now you got wifi six coming in. So that's a, you know, and WiFi's flexible, it's cheap, it's good for homes, good for offices, but these private networks are going to be like kickass, right? They're going to be designed to run whatever, warehouses and robots, and energy drilling facilities. And so, you know the economics I don't think are there today but maybe they can be at volume. >> Maybe at some point you sort of think of today's science experiment becoming the enterprise-grade solution in the future. I had a chance to have some conversations with folks around the show. And I think, and what I was surprised by was I was reminded, frankly, I wasn't surprised. I was reminded that when we start talking about 5G, we're talking about spectrum that is managed by government entities. Of course all broadcast, all spectrum, is managed in one way or another. But in particular, you can't simply put a SIM in every device now because there are a lot of regulatory hurdles that have to take place. So typically what these things look like today is 5G backhaul to the network, communication from that box to wifi. That's a huge improvement already. So yeah, my question about whether, you know, why not put a SIM in everything? Maybe eventually, but I think, but there are other things that I was not aware of that are standing in the way. >> Your point about spectrum's an interesting one though because private networks, you're going to be able to leverage that spectrum in different ways, and tune it essentially, use different parts of the spectrum, make it programmable so that you can apply it to that specific use case, right? So it's going to be a lot more flexible, you know, because I presume the needs spectrum needs of a hospital are going to be different than, you know, an agribusiness are going to be different than a drilling, you know, unit, offshore drilling unit. And so the ability to have the flexibility to use the spectrum in different ways and apply it to that use case, I think is going to be powerful. But I suspect it's going to be expensive initially. I think the other thing we talked about is public policy and regulation, and it's San Ji Choha brought up the point, is telcos have been highly regulated. They don't just do something and ask for permission, you know, they have to work within the confines of that regulated environment. And there's a lot of these greenfield companies and private networks that don't necessarily have to follow those rules. So that's a potential disruptive force. So at the same time, the telcos are spending what'd we hear, a billion, a trillion and a half over the next seven years? Building out 5G networks. So they got to figure out, you know how to get a payback on that. They'll get it I think on connectivity, 'cause they have a monopoly but they want more. They're greedy. They see the over, they see the Netflixes of the world and the Googles and the Amazons mopping up services and they want a piece of that action but they've never really been good at it. >> Well, I've got a question for both of you. I mean, what do you think the odds are that by the time the Shangri La of fully deployed 5G happens that we have so much data going through it that effectively it feels exactly the same as 3G? What are the odds? >> That's a good point. Well, the thing that gets me about 5G is there's so much of it on, if I go to the consumer side when we're all consumers in our daily lives so much of it's marketing hype. And, you know all the messaging about that, when it's really early innings yet they're talking about 6G. What does actual fully deployed 5G look like? What is that going to enable a hospital to achieve or an oil refinery out in the middle of the ocean? That's something that interests me is what's next for that? Are we going to hear that at this event? >> I mean, walking around, you see a fair amount of discussion of, you know, the internet of things. Edge devices, the increase in connectivity. And again, what I was surprised by was that there's very little talk about a sim card in every one of those devices at this point. It's like, no, no, no, we got wifi to handle all that but aggregating it back into a central network that's leveraging 5G. That's really interesting. That's really interesting. >> I think you, the odds of your, to go back to your question, I think the odds are even money, that by the time it's all built out there's going to be so much data and so much new capability it's going to work similarly at similar speeds as we see in the networks today. You're just going to be able to do so many more things. You know, and your video's going to look better, the graphics are going to look better. But I think over the course of history, this is what's happening. I mean, even when you go back to dial up, if you were in an AOL chat room in 1996, it was, you know, yeah it took a while. You're like, (screeches) (Lisa laughs) the modem and everything else, but once you were in there- >> Once you're there, 2400 baud. >> It was basically real time. And so you could talk to your friends and, you know, little chat room but that's all you could do. You know, if you wanted to watch a video, forget it, right? And then, you know, early days of streaming video, stop, start, stop, start, you know, look at Amazon Prime when it first started, Prime Video was not that great. It's sort of catching up to Netflix. But, so I think your point, that question is really prescient because more data, more capability, more apps means same speed. >> Well, you know, you've used the phrase over the top. And so just just so we're clear so we're talking about the same thing. Typically we're talking about, you've got, you have network providers. Outside of that, you know, Netflix, internet connection, I don't need Comcast, right? Perfect example. Well, what about the over the top that's coming from direct satellite communications with devices. There are times when I don't have a signal on my, happens to be an Apple iPhone, when I get a little SOS satellite logo because I can communicate under very limited circumstances now directly to the satellite for very limited text messaging purposes. Here at the show, I think it might be a Motorola device. It's a dongle that allows any mobile device to leverage direct satellite communication. Again, for texting back to the 2,400 baud modem, you know, days, 1200 even, 300 even, go back far enough. What's that going to look like? Is that too far in the future to think that eventually it's all going to be over the top? It's all going to be handset to satellite and we don't need these RANs anymore. It's all going to be satellite networks. >> Dave V.: I think you're going to see- >> Little too science fiction-y? (laughs) >> No, I, no, I think it's a good question and I think you're going to see fragments. I think you're going to see fragmentation of private networks. I think you're going to see fragmentation of satellites. I think you're going to see legacy incumbents kind of hanging on, you know, the cable companies. I think that's coming. I think by 2030 it'll, the picture will be much more clear. The question is, and I think it's come down to the innovation on top, which platform is going to be the most developer friendly? Right, and you know, I've not heard anything from the big carriers that they're going to be developer friendly. I've heard "we have proprietary data that we're going to charge access for and developers are going to have to pay for that." But I haven't heard them saying "Developers, developers, developers!" You know, Steve Bomber running around, like bend over backwards for developers, they're asking the developers to bend over. And so if a network can, let's say the satellite network is more developer friendly, you know, you're going to see more innovation there potentially. You know, or if a dish network says, "You know what? We're going after developers, we're going after innovation. We're not going to gouge them for all this network data. Rather we're going to make the platform open or maybe we're going to do an app store-like model where we take a piece of the action after they succeed." You know, take it out of the backend, like a Silicon Valley VC as opposed to an East Coast VC. They're not going to get you in the front end. (Lisa laughs) >> Well, you can see the sort of disruptive forces at play between open RAN and the legacy, call it proprietary stack, right? But what is the, you know, if that's sort of a horizontal disruptive model, what's the vertically disruptive model? Is it private networks coming in? Is it a private 5G network that comes in that says, "We're starting from the ground up, everything is containerized. We're going to go find people at KubeCon who are, who understand how to orchestrate with Kubernetes and use containers in microservices, and we're going to have this little 5G network that's going to deliver capabilities that you can't get from the big boys." Is there a way to monetize that? Is there a way for them to be disrupted, be disruptive, or are these private 5G networks that everybody's talking about just relegated to industrial use cases where you're just squeezing better economics out of wireless communication amongst all your devices in your factory? >> That's an interesting question. I mean, there are a lot of those smart factory industrial use cases. I mean, it's basically industry 4.0 use cases. But yeah, I don't count the cloud guys out. You know, everybody says, "oh, the narrative is, well, the latency of the cloud." Well, not if the cloud is at the edge. If you take a local zone and put storage, compute, and data right next to each other and the cloud model with the cloud APIs, and then you got an asynchronous, you know, connection back. I think that's a reasonable model. I think the cloud guys figured out developers, right? Pretty well. Certainly Microsoft and, and Amazon and Google, they know developers. I don't see any reason why they can't bring their model to the edge. So, and that's really disruptive to the legacy telco guys, you know? So they have to be careful. >> One step closer to my dream of eliminating the word "cloud" from IT lexicon. (Lisa laughs) I contend that it has always been IT, and it will always be IT. And this whole idea of cloud, what is cloud? If AWS, for example, is delivering hardware to the edge where it needs to be, is that cloud? Do we go back to the idea that cloud is an operational model and not a question of physical location? I hope we get to that point. >> Well, what's Apex and GreenLake? Apex is, you know, Dell's as a service. GreenLake is- >> HPE. >> HPE's as a service. That's outposts. >> Dave N.: Right. >> Yeah. >> That's their outpost. >> Yeah. >> Well AWS's position used to be, you know, to use them as a proxy for hyperscale cloud. We'll just, we'll grow in a very straight trajectory forever on the back of net new stuff. Forget about the old stuff. As James T. Kirk said of the Klingons, "let them die." (Lisa laughs) As far as the cloud providers were concerned just, yeah, let, let that old stuff go away. Well then they found out, there came a point in time where they realized there's a lot of friction and stickiness associated with that. So they had to deal with the reality of hybridity, if that's the word, the hybrid nature of things. So what are they doing? They're pushing stuff out to the edge, so... >> With the same operating model. >> With the same operating model. >> Similar. I mean, it's limited, right? >> So you see- >> You can't run a lot of database on outpost, you can run RES- >> You see this clash of Titans where some may have written off traditional IT infrastructure vendors, might have been written off as part of the past. Whereas hyperscale cloud providers represent the future. It seems here at this show they're coming head to head and competing evenly. >> And this is where I think a company like Dell or HPE or Cisco has some advantages in that they're not going to compete with the telcos, but the hyperscalers will. >> Lisa: Right. >> Right. You know, and they're already, Google's, how much undersea cable does Google own? A lot. Probably more than anybody. >> Well, we heard from Google and Microsoft this morning in the keynote. It'd be interesting to see if we hear from AWS and then over the next couple of days. But guys, clearly there is, this is a great wrap of day one. And the crazy thing is this is only day one. We've got three more days of coverage, more news, more information to break down and unpack on theCUBE. Look forward to doing that with you guys over the next three days. Thank you for sharing what you saw on the show floor, what you heard from our guests today as we had about 10 interviews. Appreciate your insights and your perspectives and can't wait for tomorrow. >> Right on. >> All right. For Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's day one wrap from MWC 23. We'll see you tomorrow. (relaxing music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting instrumental music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE Live at MWC '23. I'm Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, our co-founder, our co-CEO of theCUBE, you know him, you love him. He's here as my co-host. Dave, we have a great couple of guests here to break down day one keynote. Lots of meat. I can't wait to be part of this conversation. Chris Lewis joins us, the founder and MD of Lewis Insight. And Sarbjeet Johal, one of you know him as well. He's a Cube contributor, cloud architect. Guys, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me today. >> Lovely to be here. >> Thank you. >> Chris, I want to start with you. You have covered all aspects of global telecoms industries over 30 years working as an analyst. Talk about the evolution of the telecom industry that you've witnessed, and what were some of the things you heard in the keynote that excite you about the direction it's going? >> Well, as ever, MWC, there's no lack of glitz and glamour, but it's the underlying issues of the industry that are really at stake here. There's not a lot of new revenue coming into the telecom providers, but there's a lot of adjustment, readjustment of the underlying operational environment. And also, really importantly, what came out of the keynotes is the willingness and the necessity to really engage with the API community, with the developer community, people who traditionally, telecoms would never have even touched. So they're sorting out their own house, they're cleaning their own stables, getting the cost base down, but they're also now realizing they've got to engage with all the other parties. There's a lot of cloud providers here, there's a lot of other people from outside so they're realizing they cannot do it all themselves. It's quite a tough lesson for a very conservative, inward looking industry, right? So should we be spending all this money and all this glitz and glamour of MWC and all be here, or should would be out there really building for the future and making sure the services are right for yours and my needs in a business and personal lives? So a lot of new changes, a lot of realization of what's going on outside, but underlying it, we've just got to get this right this time. >> And it feels like that monetization is front and center. You mentioned developers, we've got to work with developers, but I'm hearing the latest keynote from the Ericsson CEOs, we're going to monetize through those APIs, we're going to charge the developers. I mean, first of all, Chris, am I getting that right? And Sarbjeet, as somebody who's close to the developer community, is that the right way to build bridges? But Chris, are we getting that right? >> Well, let's take the first steps first. So, Ericsson, of course, acquired Vonage, which is a massive API business so they want to make money. They expect to make money by bringing that into the mainstream telecom community. Now, whether it's the developers who pay for it, or let's face it, we are moving into a situation as the telco moves into a techco model where the techco means they're going to be selling bits of the technology to developer guys and to other application developers. So when he says he needs to charge other people for it, it's the way in which people reach in and will take going through those open APIs like the open gateway announced today, but also the way they'll reach in and take things like network slicing. So we're opening up the telecom community, the treasure chest, if you like, where developers' applications and other third parties can come in and take those chunks of technology and build them into their services. This is a complete change from the old telecom industry where everybody used to come and you say, "all right, this is my product, you've got to buy it and you're going to pay me a lot of money for it." So we are looking at a more flexible environment where the other parties can take those chunks. And we know we want collectivity built into our financial applications, into our government applications, everything, into the future of the metaverse, whatever it may be. But it requires that change in attitude of the telcos. And they do need more money 'cause they've said, the baseline of revenue is pretty static, there's not a lot of growth in there so they're looking for new revenues. It's in a B2B2X time model. And it's probably the middle man's going to pay for it rather than the customer. >> But the techco model, Sarbjeet, it looks like the telcos are getting their money on their way in. The techco company model's to get them on their way out like the app store. Go build something of value, build some kind of app or data product, and then when it takes off, we'll take a piece of the action. What are your thoughts from a developer perspective about how the telcos are approaching it? >> Yeah, I think before we came here, like I said, I did some tweets on this, that we talk about all kind of developers, like there's game developers and front end, back end, and they're all talking about like what they're building on top of cloud, but nowhere you will hear the term "telco developer," there's no API from telcos given to the developers to build IoT solutions on top of it because telco as an IoT, I think is a good sort of hand in hand there. And edge computing as well. The glimmer of hope, if you will, for telcos is the edge computing, I believe. And even in edge, I predicted, I said that many times that cloud players will dominate that market with the private 5G. You know that story, right? >> We're going to talk about that. (laughs) >> The key is this, that if you see in general where the population lives, in metros, right? That's where the world population is like flocking to and we have cloud providers covering the local zones with local like heavy duty presence from the big cloud providers and then these telcos are getting sidetracked by that. Even the V2X in cars moving the autonomous cars and all that, even in that space, telcos are getting sidetracked in many ways. What telcos have to do is to join the forces, build some standards, if not standards, some consortium sort of. They're trying to do that with the open gateway here, they have only eight APIs. And it's 2023, eight APIs is nothing, right? (laughs) So they should have started this 10 years back, I think. So, yeah, I think to entice the developers, developers need the employability, we need to train them, we need to show them some light that hey, you can build a lot on top of it. If you tell developers they can develop two things or five things, nobody will come. >> So, Chris, the cloud will dominate the edge. So A, do you buy it? B, the telcos obviously are acting like that might happen. >> Do you know I love people when they've got their heads in the clouds. (all laugh) And you're right in so many ways, but if you flip it around and think about how the customers think about this, business customers and consumers, they don't care about all this background shenanigans going on, do they? >> Lisa: No. >> So I think one of the problems we have is that this is a new territory and whether you call it the edge or whatever you call it, what we need there is we need connectivity, we need security, we need storage, we need compute, we need analytics, and we need applications. And are any of those more important than the others? It's the collective that actually drives the real value there. So we need all those things together. And of course, the people who represented at this show, whether it's the cloud guys, the telcos, the Nokia, the Ericssons of this world, they all own little bits of that. So that's why they're all talking partnerships because they need the combination, they cannot do it on their own. The cloud guys can't do it on their own. >> Well, the cloud guys own all of those things that you just talked about though. (all laugh) >> Well, they don't own the last bit of connectivity, do they? They don't own the access. >> Right, exactly. That's the one thing they don't own. So, okay, we're back to pipes, right? We're back to charging for connectivity- >> Pipes are very valuable things, right? >> Yeah, for sure. >> Never underestimate pipes. I don't know about where you live, plumbers make a lot of money where I live- >> I don't underestimate them but I'm saying can the telcos charge for more than that or are the cloud guys going to mop up the storage, the analytics, the compute, and the apps? >> They may mop it up, but I think what the telcos are doing and we've seen a lot of it here already, is they are working with all those major cloud guys already. So is it an unequal relationship? The cloud guys are global, massive global scale, the telcos are fundamentally national operators. >> Yep. >> Some have a little bit of regional, nobody has global scale. So who stitches it all together? >> Dave: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. >> Absolutely. >> I know that saying never gets old. It's true. Well, Sarbjeet, one of the things that you tweeted about, I didn't get to see the keynote but I was looking at your tweets. 46% of telcos think they won't make it to the next decade. That's a big number. Did that surprise you? >> No, actually it didn't surprise me because the competition is like closing in on them and the telcos are competing with telcos as well and the telcos are competing with cloud providers on the other side, right? So the smaller ones are getting squeezed. It's the bigger players, they can hook up the newer platforms, I think they will survive. It's like that part is like any other industry, if you will. But the key is here, I think why the pain points were sort of described on the main stage is that they're crying out loud to tell the big tech cloud providers that "hey, you pay your fair share," like we talked, right? You are not paying, you're generating so much content which reverses our networks and you are not paying for it. So they are not able to recoup the cost of laying down their networks. By the way, one thing actually I want to mention is that they said the cloud needs earth. The cloud and earth, it's like there's no physical need to cloud, you know that, right? So like, I think it's the other way around. I think the earth needs the cloud because I'm a cloud guy. (Sarbjeet and Lisa laugh) >> I think you need each other, right? >> I think so too. >> They need each other. When they said cloud needs earth, right? I think they're still in denial that the cloud is a big force. They have to partner. When you can't compete with somebody, what do you do? Partner with them. >> Chris, this is your world. Are they in denial? >> No, I think they're waking up to the pragmatism of the situation. >> Yeah. >> They're building... As we said, most of the telcos, you find have relationships with the cloud guys, I think you're right about the industry. I mean, do you think what's happened since US was '96, the big telecom act when we started breaking up all the big telcos and we had lots of competition came in, we're seeing the signs that we might start to aggregate them back up together again. So it's been an interesting experiment for like 30 years, hasn't it too? >> It made the US less competitive, I would argue, but carry on. >> Yes, I think it's true. And Europe is maybe too competitive and therefore, it's not driven the investment needed. And by the way, it's not just mobile, it's fixed as well. You saw the Orange CEO was talking about the her investment and the massive fiber investments way ahead of many other countries, way ahead of the UK or Germany. We need that fiber in the ground to carry all your cloud traffic to do this. So there is a scale issue, there is a competition issue, but the telcos are very much aware of it. They need the cloud, by the way, to improve their operational environments as well, to change that whole old IT environment to deliver you and I better service. So no, it absolutely is changing. And they're getting scale, but they're fundamentally offering the basic product, you call it pipes, I'll just say they're offering broadband to you and I and the business community. But they're stepping on dangerous ground, I think, when saying they want to charge the over the top guys for all the traffic they use. Those over the top guys now build a lot of the global networks, the backbone submarine network. They're putting a lot of money into it, and by giving us endless data for our individual usage, that cat is out the bag, I think to a large extent. >> Yeah. And Orange CEO basically said that, that they're not paying their fair share. I'm for net neutrality but the governments are going to have to fund this unless you let us charge the OTT. >> Well, I mean, we could of course renationalize. Where would that take us? (Dave laughs) That would make MWC very interesting next year, wouldn't it? To renationalize it. So, no, I think you've got to be careful what we wish for here. Creating the absolute clear product that is required to underpin all of these activities, whether it's IoT or whether it's cloud delivery or whether it's just our own communication stuff, delivering that absolutely ubiquitously high quality for business and for consumer is what we have to do. And telcos have been too conservative in the past. >> I think they need to get together and create standards around... I think they have a big opportunity. We know that the clouds are being built in silos, right? So there's Azure stack, there's AWS and there's Google. And those are three main ones and a few others, right? So that we are fighting... On the cloud side, what we are fighting is the multicloud. How do we consume that multicloud without having standards? So if these people get together and create some standards around IoT and edge computing sort of area, people will flock to them to say, "we will use you guys, your API, we don't care behind the scenes if you use AWS or Google Cloud or Azure, we will come to you." So market, actually is looking for that solution. I think it's an opportunity for these guys, for telcos. But the problem with telcos is they're nationalized, as you said Chris versus the cloud guys are still kind of national in a way, but they're global corporations. And some of the telcos are global corporations as well, BT covers so many countries and TD covers so many... DT is in US as well, so they're all over the place. >> But you know what's interesting is that the TM forum, which is one of the industry associations, they've had an open digital architecture framework for quite some years now. Google had joined that some years ago, Azure in there, AWS just joined it a couple of weeks ago. So when people said this morning, why isn't AWS on the keynote? They don't like sharing the limelight, do they? But they're getting very much in bed with the telco. So I think you'll see the marriage. And in fact, there's a really interesting statement, if you look at the IoT you mentioned, Bosch and Nokia have been working together 'cause they said, the problem we've got, you've got a connectivity network on one hand, you've got the sensor network on the other hand, you're trying to merge them together, it's a nightmare. So we are finally seeing those sort of groups talking to each other. So I think the standards are coming, the cooperation is coming, partnerships are coming, but it means that the telco can't dominate the sector like it used to. It's got to play ball with everybody else. >> I think they have to work with the regulators as well to loosen the regulation. Or you said before we started this segment, you used Chris, the analogy of sports, right? In sports, when you're playing fiercely, you commit the fouls and then ask for ref to blow the whistle. You're now looking at the ref all the time. The telcos are looking at the ref all the time. >> Dave: Yeah, can I do this? Can I do that? Is this a fair move? >> They should be looking for the space in front of the opposition. >> Yeah, they should be just on attack mode and commit these fouls, if you will, and then ask for forgiveness then- >> What do you make of that AWS not you there- >> Well, Chris just made a great point that they don't like to share the limelight 'cause I thought it was very obvious that we had Google Cloud, we had Microsoft there on day one of this 80,000 person event. A lot of people back from COVID and they weren't there. But Chris, you brought up a great point that kind of made me think, maybe you're right. Maybe they're in the afternoon keynote, they want their own time- >> You think GSMA invited them? >> I imagine so. You'd have to ask GSMA. >> I would think so. >> Get Max on here and ask that. >> I'm going to ask them, I will. >> But no, and they don't like it because I think the misconception, by the way, is that everyone says, "oh, it's AWS, it's Google Cloud and it's Azure." They're not all the same business by any stretch of the imagination. AWS has been doing loads of great work, they've been launching private network stuff over the last couple of weeks. Really interesting. Google's been playing catch up. We know that they came in readily late to the market. And Azure, they've all got slightly different angles on it. So perhaps it just wasn't right for AWS and the way they wanted to pitch things so they don't have to be there, do they? >> That's a good point. >> But the industry needs them there, that's the number one cloud. >> Dave, they're there working with the industry. >> Yeah, of course. >> They don't have to be on the keynote stage. And in fact, you think about this show and you mentioned the 80,000 people, the activity going on around in all these massive areas they're in, it's fantastic. That's where the business is done. The business isn't done up on the keynote stage. >> That's why there's the glitz and the glamour, Chris. (all laugh) >> Yeah. It's not glitz, it's espresso. It's not glamour anymore, it's just espresso. >> We need the espresso. >> Yeah. >> I think another thing is that it's interesting how an average European sees the tech market and an average North American, especially you from US, you have to see the market. Here, people are more like process oriented and they want the rules of the road already established before they can take a step- >> Chris: That's because it's your pension in the North American- >> Exactly. So unions are there and the more employee rights and everything, you can't fire people easily here or in Germany or most of the Europe is like that with the exception of UK. >> Well, but it's like I said, that Silicone Valley gets their money on the way out, you know? And that's how they do it, that's how they think it. And they don't... They ask for forgiveness. I think the east coast is more close to Europe, but in the EU, highly regulated, really focused on lifetime employment, things like that. >> But Dave, the issue is the telecom industry is brilliant, right? We keep paying every month whatever we do with it. >> It's a great business, to your point- >> It's a brilliant business model. >> Dave: It's fantastic. >> So it's about then getting the structure right behind it. And you know, we've seen a lot of stratification where people are selling off towers, Orange haven't sold their towers off, they made a big point about that. Others are selling their towers off. Some people are selling off their underlying network, Telecom Italia talking about KKR buying the whole underlying network. It's like what do you want to be in control of? It's a great business. >> But that's why they complain so much is that they're having to sell their assets because of the onerous CapEx requirements, right? >> Yeah, they've had it good, right? And dare I say, perhaps they've not planned well enough for the future. >> They're trying to protect their past from the future. I mean, that's... >> Actually, look at the... Every "n" number of years, there's a new faster network. They have to dig the ground, they have to put the fiber, they have to put this. Now, there are so many booths showing 6G now, we are not even done with 5G yet, now the next 6G you know, like then- >> 10G's coming- >> 10G, that's a different market. (Dave laughs) >> Actually, they're bogged down by the innovation, I think. >> And the generational thing is really important because we're planning for 6G in all sorts of good ways but actually what we use in our daily lives, we've gone through the barrier, we've got enough to do that. So 4G gives us enough, the fiber in the ground or even old copper gives us enough. So the question is, what are we willing to pay for more than that basic connectivity? And the answer to your point, Dave, is not a lot, right? So therefore, that's why the emphasis is on the business market on that B2B and B2B2X. >> But we'll pay for Netflix all day long. >> All day long. (all laugh) >> The one thing Chris, I don't know, I want to know your viewpoints and we have talked in the past as well, there's absence of think tanks in tech, right? So we have think tanks on the foreign policy and economic policy in every country, and we have global think tanks, but tech is becoming a huge part of the economy, global economy as well as national economies, right? But we don't have think tanks on like policy around tech. For example, this 4G is good for a lot of use cases. Then 5G is good for smaller number of use cases. And then 6G will be like, fewer people need 6G for example. Why can't we have sort of those kind of entities dictating those kind of like, okay, is this a wiser way to go about it? >> Lina Khan wants to. She wants to break up big tech- >> You're too young to remember but the IT used to have a show every four years in Geneva, there were standards around there. So I think there are bodies. I think the balance of power obviously has gone from the telecom to the west coast to the IT markets. And it's changing the balance about, it moves more quickly, right? Telecoms has never moved quickly enough. I think there is hope by the way, that telecoms now that we are moving to more softwarized environment, and God forbid, we're moving into CICD in the telecom world, right? Which is a massive change, but I think there's hopes for it to change. The mentality is changing, the culture is changing, but to change those old structured organizations from the British telecom or the France telecom into the modern world, it's a hell of a long journey. It's not an overnight journey at all. >> Well, of course the theme of the event is velocity. >> Yeah, I know that. >> And it's been interesting sitting here with the three of you talking about from a historic perspective, how slow and molasseslike telecom has been. They don't have a choice anymore. As consumers, we have this expectation we're going to get anything we want on our mobile device, 24 by seven. We don't care about how the sausage is made, we just want the end result. So do you really think, and we're only on day one guys... And Chris we'll start with you. Is the theme really velocity? Is it disruption? Are they able to move faster? >> Actually, I think invisibility is the real answer. (Lisa laughs) We want communication to be invisible, right? >> Absolutely. >> We want it to work. When we switch our phones on, we want it to work and we want to... Well, they're not even phones anymore, are they really? I mean that's the... So no, velocity, we've got... There is momentum in the industry, there's no doubt about that. The cloud guys coming in, making telecoms think about the way they run their own business, where they meet, that collision point on the edges you talked about Sarbjeet. We do have velocity, we've got momentum. There's so many interested parties. The way I think of this is that the telecom industry used to be inward looking, just design its own technology and then expect everyone else to dance to our tune. We're now flipping that 180 degrees and we are now having to work with all the different outside forces shaping us. Whether it's devices, whether it's smart cities, governments, the hosting guys, the Equinoxis, all these things. So everyone wants a piece of this telecom world so we've got to make ourselves more open. That's why you get in a more open environment. >> But you did... I just want to bring back a point you made during COVID, which was when everybody switched to work from home, started using their landlines again, telcos had to respond and nothing broke. I mean, it was pretty amazing. >> Chris: It did a good job. >> It was kind of invisible. So, props to the telcos for making that happen. >> They did a great job. >> So it really did. Now, okay, what have you done for me lately? So now they've got to deal with the future and they're talking monetization. But to me, monetization is all about data and not necessarily just the network data. Yeah, they can sell that 'cause they own that but what kind of incremental value are they going to create for the consumers that... >> Yeah, actually that's a problem. I think the problem is that they have been strangled by the regulation for a long time and they cannot look at their data. It's a lot more similar to the FinTech world, right? I used to work at Visa. And then Visa, we did trillion dollars in transactions in '96. Like we moved so much money around, but we couldn't look at these things, right? So yeah, I think regulation is a problem that holds you back, it's the antithesis of velocity, it slows you down. >> But data means everything, doesn't it? I mean, it means everything and nothing. So I think the challenge here is what data do the telcos have that is useful, valuable to me, right? So in the home environment, the fact that my broadband provider says, oh, by the way, you've got 20 gadgets on that network and 20 on that one... That's great, tell me what's on there. I probably don't know what's taking all my valuable bandwidth up. So I think there's security wrapped around that, telling me the way I'm using it if I'm getting the best out of my service. >> You pay for that? >> No, I'm saying they don't do it yet. I think- >> But would you pay for that? >> I think I would, yeah. >> Would you pay a lot for that? I would expect it to be there as part of my dashboard for my monthly fee. They're already charging me enough. >> Well, that's fine, but you pay a lot more in North America than I do in Europe, right? >> Yeah, no, that's true. >> You're really overpaying over there, right? >> Way overpaying. >> So, actually everybody's looking at these devices, right? So this is a radio operated device basically, right? And then why couldn't they benefit from this? This is like we need to like double click on this like 10 times to find out why telcos failed to leverage this device, right? But I think the problem is their reliance on regulations and their being close to the national sort of governments and local bodies and authorities, right? And in some countries, these telcos are totally controlled in very authoritarian ways, right? It's not like open, like in the west, most of the west. Like the world is bigger than five, six countries and we know that, right? But we end up talking about the major economies most of the time. >> Dave: Always. >> Chris: We have a topic we want to hit on. >> We do have a topic. Our last topic, Chris, it's for you. You guys have done an amazing job for the last 25 minutes talking about the industry, where it's going, the evolution. But Chris, you're registered blind throughout your career. You're a leading user of assertive technologies. Talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, some of the things you're doing there. >> Well, we should have had 25 minutes on that and five minutes on- (all laugh) >> Lisa: You'll have to come back. >> Really interesting. So I've been looking at it. You're quite right, I've been using accessible technology on my iPhone and on my laptop for 10, 20 years now. It's amazing. And what I'm trying to get across to the industry is to think about inclusive design from day one. When you're designing an app or you're designing a service, make sure you... And telecom's a great example. In fact, there's quite a lot of sign language around here this week. If you look at all the events written, good to see that coming in. Obviously, no use to me whatsoever, but good for the hearing impaired, which by the way is the biggest category of disability in the world. Biggest chunk is hearing impaired, then vision impaired, and then cognitive and then physical. And therefore, whenever you're designing any service, my call to arms to people is think about how that's going to be used and how a blind person might use it or how a deaf person or someone with physical issues or any cognitive issues might use it. And a great example, the GSMA and I have been talking about the app they use for getting into the venue here. I downloaded it. I got the app downloaded and I'm calling my guys going, where's my badge? And he said, "it's top left." And because I work with a screen reader, they hadn't tagged it properly so I couldn't actually open my badge on my own. Now, they changed it overnight so it worked this morning, which is fantastic work by Trevor and the team. But it's those things that if you don't build it in from scratch, you really frustrate a whole group of users. And if you think about it, people with disabilities are excluded from so many services if they can't see the screen or they can't hear it. But it's also the elderly community who don't find it easy to get access to things. Smart speakers have been a real blessing in that respect 'cause you can now talk to that thing and it starts talking back to you. And then there's the people who can't afford it so we need to come down market. This event is about launching these thousand dollars plus devices. Come on, we need below a hundred dollars devices to get to the real mass market and get the next billion people in and then to educate people how to use it. And I think to go back to your previous point, I think governments are starting to realize how important this is about building the community within the countries. You've got some massive projects like NEOM in Saudi Arabia. If you have a look at that, if you get a chance, a fantastic development in the desert where they're building a new city from scratch and they're building it so anyone and everyone can get access to it. So in the past, it was all done very much by individual disability. So I used to use some very expensive, clunky blind tech stuff. I'm now using mostly mainstream. But my call to answer to say is, make sure when you develop an app, it's accessible, anyone can use it, you can talk to it, you can get whatever access you need and it will make all of our lives better. So as we age and hearing starts to go and sight starts to go and dexterity starts to go, then those things become very useful for everybody. >> That's a great point and what a great champion they have in you. Chris, Sarbjeet, Dave, thank you so much for kicking things off, analyzing day one keynote, the ecosystem day, talking about what velocity actually means, where we really are. We're going to have to have you guys back 'cause as you know, we can keep going, but we are out of time. But thank you. >> Pleasure. >> We had a very spirited, lively conversation. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live in Barcelona, Spain at MWC '23. We'll be back after a short break. See you soon. (uplifting instrumental music)

(upbeat music beginning) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Making predictions about the future of enterprise tech is more challenging if you strive to lay down forecasts that are measurable. In other words, if you make a prediction, you should be able to look back a year later and say, with some degree of certainty, whether the prediction came true or not, with evidence to back that up. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we aim to do just that, with predictions about the macro IT spending environment, cost optimization, security, lots to talk about there, generative AI, cloud, and of course supercloud, blockchain adoption, data platforms, including commentary on Databricks, snowflake, and other key players, automation, events, and we may even have some bonus predictions around quantum computing, and perhaps some other areas. To make all this happen, we welcome back, for the third year in a row, my colleague and friend Eric Bradley from ETR. Eric, thanks for all you do for the community, and thanks for being part of this program. Again. >> I wouldn't miss it for the world. I always enjoy this one. Dave, good to see you. >> Yeah, so let me bring up this next slide and show you, actually come back to me if you would. I got to show the audience this. These are the inbounds that we got from PR firms starting in October around predictions. They know we do prediction posts. And so they'll send literally thousands and thousands of predictions from hundreds of experts in the industry, technologists, consultants, et cetera. And if you bring up the slide I can show you sort of the pattern that developed here. 40% of these thousands of predictions were from cyber. You had AI and data. If you combine those, it's still not close to cyber. Cost optimization was a big thing. Of course, cloud, some on DevOps, and software. Digital... Digital transformation got, you know, some lip service and SaaS. And then there was other, it's kind of around 2%. So quite remarkable, when you think about the focus on cyber, Eric. >> Yeah, there's two reasons why I think it makes sense, though. One, the cybersecurity companies have a lot of cash, so therefore the PR firms might be working a little bit harder for them than some of their other clients. (laughs) And then secondly, as you know, for multiple years now, when we do our macro survey, we ask, "What's your number one spending priority?" And again, it's security. It just isn't going anywhere. It just stays at the top. So I'm actually not that surprised by that little pie chart there, but I was shocked that SaaS was only 5%. You know, going back 10 years ago, that would've been the only thing anyone was talking about. >> Yeah. So true. All right, let's get into it. First prediction, we always start with kind of tech spending. Number one is tech spending increases between four and 5%. ETR has currently got it at 4.6% coming into 2023. This has been a consistently downward trend all year. We started, you know, much, much higher as we've been reporting. Bottom line is the fed is still in control. They're going to ease up on tightening, is the expectation, they're going to shoot for a soft landing. But you know, my feeling is this slingshot economy is going to continue, and it's going to continue to confound, whether it's supply chains or spending. The, the interesting thing about the ETR data, Eric, and I want you to comment on this, the largest companies are the most aggressive to cut. They're laying off, smaller firms are spending faster. They're actually growing at a much larger, faster rate as are companies in EMEA. And that's a surprise. That's outpacing the US and APAC. Chime in on this, Eric. >> Yeah, I was surprised on all of that. First on the higher level spending, we are definitely seeing it coming down, but the interesting thing here is headlines are making it worse. The huge research shop recently said 0% growth. We're coming in at 4.6%. And just so everyone knows, this is not us guessing, we asked 1,525 IT decision-makers what their budget growth will be, and they came in at 4.6%. Now there's a huge disparity, as you mentioned. The Fortune 500, global 2000, barely at 2% growth, but small, it's at 7%. So we're at a situation right now where the smaller companies are still playing a little bit of catch up on digital transformation, and they're spending money. The largest companies that have the most to lose from a recession are being more trepidatious, obviously. So they're playing a "Wait and see." And I hope we don't talk ourselves into a recession. Certainly the headlines and some of their research shops are helping it along. But another interesting comment here is, you know, energy and utilities used to be called an orphan and widow stock group, right? They are spending more than anyone, more than financials insurance, more than retail consumer. So right now it's being driven by mid, small, and energy and utilities. They're all spending like gangbusters, like nothing's happening. And it's the rest of everyone else that's being very cautious. >> Yeah, so very unpredictable right now. All right, let's go to number two. Cost optimization remains a major theme in 2023. We've been reporting on this. You've, we've shown a chart here. What's the primary method that your organization plans to use? You asked this question of those individuals that cited that they were going to reduce their spend and- >> Mhm. >> consolidating redundant vendors, you know, still leads the way, you know, far behind, cloud optimization is second, but it, but cloud continues to outpace legacy on-prem spending, no doubt. Somebody, it was, the guy's name was Alexander Feiglstorfer from Storyblok, sent in a prediction, said "All in one becomes extinct." Now, generally I would say I disagree with that because, you know, as we know over the years, suites tend to win out over, you know, individual, you know, point products. But I think what's going to happen is all in one is going to remain the norm for these larger companies that are cutting back. They want to consolidate redundant vendors, and the smaller companies are going to stick with that best of breed and be more aggressive and try to compete more effectively. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I'm seeing much more consolidation in vendors, but also consolidation in functionality. We're seeing people building out new functionality, whether it's, we're going to talk about this later, so I don't want to steal too much of our thunder right now, but data and security also, we're seeing a functionality creep. So I think there's further consolidation happening here. I think niche solutions are going to be less likely, and platform solutions are going to be more likely in a spending environment where you want to reduce your vendors. You want to have one bill to pay, not 10. Another thing on this slide, real quick if I can before I move on, is we had a bunch of people write in and some of the answer options that aren't on this graph but did get cited a lot, unfortunately, is the obvious reduction in staff, hiring freezes, and delaying hardware, were three of the top write-ins. And another one was offshore outsourcing. So in addition to what we're seeing here, there were a lot of write-in options, and I just thought it would be important to state that, but essentially the cost optimization is by and far the highest one, and it's growing. So it's actually increased in our citations over the last year. >> And yeah, specifically consolidating redundant vendors. And so I actually thank you for bringing that other up, 'cause I had asked you, Eric, is there any evidence that repatriation is going on and we don't see it in the numbers, we don't see it even in the other, there was, I think very little or no mention of cloud repatriation, even though it might be happening in this in a smattering. >> Not a single mention, not one single mention. I went through it for you. Yep. Not one write-in. >> All right, let's move on. Number three, security leads M&A in 2023. Now you might say, "Oh, well that's a layup," but let me set this up Eric, because I didn't really do a great job with the slide. I hid the, what you've done, because you basically took, this is from the emerging technology survey with 1,181 responses from November. And what we did is we took Palo Alto and looked at the overlap in Palo Alto Networks accounts with these vendors that were showing on this chart. And Eric, I'm going to ask you to explain why we put a circle around OneTrust, but let me just set it up, and then have you comment on the slide and take, give us more detail. We're seeing private company valuations are off, you know, 10 to 40%. We saw a sneak, do a down round, but pretty good actually only down 12%. We've seen much higher down rounds. Palo Alto Networks we think is going to get busy. Again, they're an inquisitive company, they've been sort of quiet lately, and we think CrowdStrike, Cisco, Microsoft, Zscaler, we're predicting all of those will make some acquisitions and we're thinking that the targets are somewhere in this mess of security taxonomy. Other thing we're predicting AI meets cyber big time in 2023, we're going to probably going to see some acquisitions of those companies that are leaning into AI. We've seen some of that with Palo Alto. And then, you know, your comment to me, Eric, was "The RSA conference is going to be insane, hopping mad, "crazy this April," (Eric laughing) but give us your take on this data, and why the red circle around OneTrust? Take us back to that slide if you would, Alex. >> Sure. There's a few things here. First, let me explain what we're looking at. So because we separate the public companies and the private companies into two separate surveys, this allows us the ability to cross-reference that data. So what we're doing here is in our public survey, the tesis, everyone who cited some spending with Palo Alto, meaning they're a Palo Alto customer, we then cross-reference that with the private tech companies. Who also are they spending with? So what you're seeing here is an overlap. These companies that we have circled are doing the best in Palo Alto's accounts. Now, Palo Alto went and bought Twistlock a few years ago, which this data slide predicted, to be quite honest. And so I don't know if they necessarily are going to go after Snyk. Snyk, sorry. They already have something in that space. What they do need, however, is more on the authentication space. So I'm looking at OneTrust, with a 45% overlap in their overall net sentiment. That is a company that's already existing in their accounts and could be very synergistic to them. BeyondTrust as well, authentication identity. This is something that Palo needs to do to move more down that zero trust path. Now why did I pick Palo first? Because usually they're very inquisitive. They've been a little quiet lately. Secondly, if you look at the backdrop in the markets, the IPO freeze isn't going to last forever. Sooner or later, the IPO markets are going to open up, and some of these private companies are going to tap into public equity. In the meantime, however, cash funding on the private side is drying up. If they need another round, they're not going to get it, and they're certainly not going to get it at the valuations they were getting. So we're seeing valuations maybe come down where they're a touch more attractive, and Palo knows this isn't going to last forever. Cisco knows that, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all these companies that are trying to make a push to become that vendor that you're consolidating in, around, they have a chance now, they have a window where they need to go make some acquisitions. And that's why I believe leading up to RSA, we're going to see some movement. I think it's going to pretty, a really exciting time in security right now. >> Awesome. Thank you. Great explanation. All right, let's go on the next one. Number four is, it relates to security. Let's stay there. Zero trust moves from hype to reality in 2023. Now again, you might say, "Oh yeah, that's a layup." A lot of these inbounds that we got are very, you know, kind of self-serving, but we always try to put some meat in the bone. So first thing we do is we pull out some commentary from, Eric, your roundtable, your insights roundtable. And we have a CISO from a global hospitality firm says, "For me that's the highest priority." He's talking about zero trust because it's the best ROI, it's the most forward-looking, and it enables a lot of the business transformation activities that we want to do. CISOs tell me that they actually can drive forward transformation projects that have zero trust, and because they can accelerate them, because they don't have to go through the hurdle of, you know, getting, making sure that it's secure. Second comment, zero trust closes that last mile where once you're authenticated, they open up the resource to you in a zero trust way. That's a CISO of a, and a managing director of a cyber risk services enterprise. Your thoughts on this? >> I can be here all day, so I'm going to try to be quick on this one. This is not a fluff piece on this one. There's a couple of other reasons this is happening. One, the board finally gets it. Zero trust at first was just a marketing hype term. Now the board understands it, and that's why CISOs are able to push through it. And what they finally did was redefine what it means. Zero trust simply means moving away from hardware security, moving towards software-defined security, with authentication as its base. The board finally gets that, and now they understand that this is necessary and it's being moved forward. The other reason it's happening now is hybrid work is here to stay. We weren't really sure at first, large companies were still trying to push people back to the office, and it's going to happen. The pendulum will swing back, but hybrid work's not going anywhere. By basically on our own data, we're seeing that 69% of companies expect remote and hybrid to be permanent, with only 30% permanent in office. Zero trust works for a hybrid environment. So all of that is the reason why this is happening right now. And going back to our previous prediction, this is why we're picking Palo, this is why we're picking Zscaler to make these acquisitions. Palo Alto needs to be better on the authentication side, and so does Zscaler. They're both fantastic on zero trust network access, but they need the authentication software defined aspect, and that's why we think this is going to happen. One last thing, in that CISO round table, I also had somebody say, "Listen, Zscaler is incredible. "They're doing incredibly well pervading the enterprise, "but their pricing's getting a little high," and they actually think Palo Alto is well-suited to start taking some of that share, if Palo can make one move. >> Yeah, Palo Alto's consolidation story is very strong. Here's my question and challenge. Do you and me, so I'm always hardcore about, okay, you've got to have evidence. I want to look back at these things a year from now and say, "Did we get it right? Yes or no?" If we got it wrong, we'll tell you we got it wrong. So how are we going to measure this? I'd say a couple things, and you can chime in. One is just the number of vendors talking about it. That's, but the marketing always leads the reality. So the second part of that is we got to get evidence from the buying community. Can you help us with that? >> (laughs) Luckily, that's what I do. I have a data company that asks thousands of IT decision-makers what they're adopting and what they're increasing spend on, as well as what they're decreasing spend on and what they're replacing. So I have snapshots in time over the last 11 years where I can go ahead and compare and contrast whether this adoption is happening or not. So come back to me in 12 months and I'll let you know. >> Now, you know, I will. Okay, let's bring up the next one. Number five, generative AI hits where the Metaverse missed. Of course everybody's talking about ChatGPT, we just wrote last week in a breaking analysis with John Furrier and Sarjeet Joha our take on that. We think 2023 does mark a pivot point as natural language processing really infiltrates enterprise tech just as Amazon turned the data center into an API. We think going forward, you're going to be interacting with technology through natural language, through English commands or other, you know, foreign language commands, and investors are lining up, all the VCs are getting excited about creating something competitive to ChatGPT, according to (indistinct) a hundred million dollars gets you a seat at the table, gets you into the game. (laughing) That's before you have to start doing promotion. But he thinks that's what it takes to actually create a clone or something equivalent. We've seen stuff from, you know, the head of Facebook's, you know, AI saying, "Oh, it's really not that sophisticated, ChatGPT, "it's kind of like IBM Watson, it's great engineering, "but you know, we've got more advanced technology." We know Google's working on some really interesting stuff. But here's the thing. ETR just launched this survey for the February survey. It's in the field now. We circle open AI in this category. They weren't even in the survey, Eric, last quarter. So 52% of the ETR survey respondents indicated a positive sentiment toward open AI. I added up all the sort of different bars, we could double click on that. And then I got this inbound from Scott Stevenson of Deep Graham. He said "AI is recession-proof." I don't know if that's the case, but it's a good quote. So bring this back up and take us through this. Explain this chart for us, if you would. >> First of all, I like Scott's quote better than the Facebook one. I think that's some sour grapes. Meta just spent an insane amount of money on the Metaverse and that's a dud. Microsoft just spent money on open AI and it is hot, undoubtedly hot. We've only been in the field with our current ETS survey for a week. So my caveat is it's preliminary data, but I don't care if it's preliminary data. (laughing) We're getting a sneak peek here at what is the number one net sentiment and mindshare leader in the entire machine-learning AI sector within a week. It's beating Data- >> 600. 600 in. >> It's beating Databricks. And we all know Databricks is a huge established enterprise company, not only in machine-learning AI, but it's in the top 10 in the entire survey. We have over 400 vendors in this survey. It's number eight overall, already. In a week. This is not hype. This is real. And I could go on the NLP stuff for a while. Not only here are we seeing it in open AI and machine-learning and AI, but we're seeing NLP in security. It's huge in email security. It's completely transforming that area. It's one of the reasons I thought Palo might take Abnormal out. They're doing such a great job with NLP in this email side, and also in the data prep tools. NLP is going to take out data prep tools. If we have time, I'll discuss that later. But yeah, this is, to me this is a no-brainer, and we're already seeing it in the data. >> Yeah, John Furrier called, you know, the ChatGPT introduction. He said it reminded him of the Netscape moment, when we all first saw Netscape Navigator and went, "Wow, it really could be transformative." All right, number six, the cloud expands to supercloud as edge computing accelerates and CloudFlare is a big winner in 2023. We've reported obviously on cloud, multi-cloud, supercloud and CloudFlare, basically saying what multi-cloud should have been. We pulled this quote from Atif Kahn, who is the founder and CTO of Alkira, thanks, one of the inbounds, thank you. "In 2023, highly distributed IT environments "will become more the norm "as organizations increasingly deploy hybrid cloud, "multi-cloud and edge settings..." Eric, from one of your round tables, "If my sources from edge computing are coming "from the cloud, that means I have my workloads "running in the cloud. "There is no one better than CloudFlare," That's a senior director of IT architecture at a huge financial firm. And then your analysis shows CloudFlare really growing in pervasion, that sort of market presence in the dataset, dramatically, to near 20%, leading, I think you had told me that they're even ahead of Google Cloud in terms of momentum right now. >> That was probably the biggest shock to me in our January 2023 tesis, which covers the public companies in the cloud computing sector. CloudFlare has now overtaken GCP in overall spending, and I was shocked by that. It's already extremely pervasive in networking, of course, for the edge networking side, and also in security. This is the number one leader in SaaSi, web access firewall, DDoS, bot protection, by your definition of supercloud, which we just did a couple of weeks ago, and I really enjoyed that by the way Dave, I think CloudFlare is the one that fits your definition best, because it's bringing all of these aspects together, and most importantly, it's cloud agnostic. It does not need to rely on Azure or AWS to do this. It has its own cloud. So I just think it's, when we look at your definition of supercloud, CloudFlare is the poster child. >> You know, what's interesting about that too, is a lot of people are poo-pooing CloudFlare, "Ah, it's, you know, really kind of not that sophisticated." "You don't have as many tools," but to your point, you're can have those tools in the cloud, Cloudflare's doing serverless on steroids, trying to keep things really simple, doing a phenomenal job at, you know, various locations around the world. And they're definitely one to watch. Somebody put them on my radar (laughing) a while ago and said, "Dave, you got to do a breaking analysis on CloudFlare." And so I want to thank that person. I can't really name them, 'cause they work inside of a giant hyperscaler. But- (Eric laughing) (Dave chuckling) >> Real quickly, if I can from a competitive perspective too, who else is there? They've already taken share from Akamai, and Fastly is their really only other direct comp, and they're not there. And these guys are in poll position and they're the only game in town right now. I just, I don't see it slowing down. >> I thought one of your comments from your roundtable I was reading, one of the folks said, you know, CloudFlare, if my workloads are in the cloud, they are, you know, dominant, they said not as strong with on-prem. And so Akamai is doing better there. I'm like, "Okay, where would you want to be?" (laughing) >> Yeah, which one of those two would you rather be? >> Right? Anyway, all right, let's move on. Number seven, blockchain continues to look for a home in the enterprise, but devs will slowly begin to adopt in 2023. You know, blockchains have got a lot of buzz, obviously crypto is, you know, the killer app for blockchain. Senior IT architect in financial services from your, one of your insight roundtables said quote, "For enterprises to adopt a new technology, "there have to be proven turnkey solutions. "My experience in talking with my peers are, "blockchain is still an open-source component "where you have to build around it." Now I want to thank Ravi Mayuram, who's the CTO of Couchbase sent in, you know, one of the predictions, he said, "DevOps will adopt blockchain, specifically Ethereum." And he referenced actually in his email to me, Solidity, which is the programming language for Ethereum, "will be in every DevOps pro's playbook, "mirroring the boom in machine-learning. "Newer programming languages like Solidity "will enter the toolkits of devs." His point there, you know, Solidity for those of you don't know, you know, Bitcoin is not programmable. Solidity, you know, came out and that was their whole shtick, and they've been improving that, and so forth. But it, Eric, it's true, it really hasn't found its home despite, you know, the potential for smart contracts. IBM's pushing it, VMware has had announcements, and others, really hasn't found its way in the enterprise yet. >> Yeah, and I got to be honest, I don't think it's going to, either. So when we did our top trends series, this was basically chosen as an anti-prediction, I would guess, that it just continues to not gain hold. And the reason why was that first comment, right? It's very much a niche solution that requires a ton of custom work around it. You can't just plug and play it. And at the end of the day, let's be very real what this technology is, it's a database ledger, and we already have database ledgers in the enterprise. So why is this a priority to move to a different database ledger? It's going to be very niche cases. I like the CTO comment from Couchbase about it being adopted by DevOps. I agree with that, but it has to be a DevOps in a very specific use case, and a very sophisticated use case in financial services, most likely. And that's not across the entire enterprise. So I just think it's still going to struggle to get its foothold for a little bit longer, if ever. >> Great, thanks. Okay, let's move on. Number eight, AWS Databricks, Google Snowflake lead the data charge with Microsoft. Keeping it simple. So let's unpack this a little bit. This is the shared accounts peer position for, I pulled data platforms in for analytics, machine-learning and AI and database. So I could grab all these accounts or these vendors and see how they compare in those three sectors. Analytics, machine-learning and database. Snowflake and Databricks, you know, they're on a crash course, as you and I have talked about. They're battling to be the single source of truth in analytics. They're, there's going to be a big focus. They're already started. It's going to be accelerated in 2023 on open formats. Iceberg, Python, you know, they're all the rage. We heard about Iceberg at Snowflake Summit, last summer or last June. Not a lot of people had heard of it, but of course the Databricks crowd, who knows it well. A lot of other open source tooling. There's a company called DBT Labs, which you're going to talk about in a minute. George Gilbert put them on our radar. We just had Tristan Handy, the CEO of DBT labs, on at supercloud last week. They are a new disruptor in data that's, they're essentially making, they're API-ifying, if you will, KPIs inside the data warehouse and dramatically simplifying that whole data pipeline. So really, you know, the ETL guys should be shaking in their boots with them. Coming back to the slide. Google really remains focused on BigQuery adoption. Customers have complained to me that they would like to use Snowflake with Google's AI tools, but they're being forced to go to BigQuery. I got to ask Google about that. AWS continues to stitch together its bespoke data stores, that's gone down that "Right tool for the right job" path. David Foyer two years ago said, "AWS absolutely is going to have to solve that problem." We saw them start to do it in, at Reinvent, bringing together NoETL between Aurora and Redshift, and really trying to simplify those worlds. There's going to be more of that. And then Microsoft, they're just making it cheap and easy to use their stuff, you know, despite some of the complaints that we hear in the community, you know, about things like Cosmos, but Eric, your take? >> Yeah, my concern here is that Snowflake and Databricks are fighting each other, and it's allowing AWS and Microsoft to kind of catch up against them, and I don't know if that's the right move for either of those two companies individually, Azure and AWS are building out functionality. Are they as good? No they're not. The other thing to remember too is that AWS and Azure get paid anyway, because both Databricks and Snowflake run on top of 'em. So (laughing) they're basically collecting their toll, while these two fight it out with each other, and they build out functionality. I think they need to stop focusing on each other, a little bit, and think about the overall strategy. Now for Databricks, we know they came out first as a machine-learning AI tool. They were known better for that spot, and now they're really trying to play catch-up on that data storage compute spot, and inversely for Snowflake, they were killing it with the compute separation from storage, and now they're trying to get into the MLAI spot. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see them make some sort of acquisition. Frank Slootman has been a little bit quiet, in my opinion there. The other thing to mention is your comment about DBT Labs. If we look at our emerging technology survey, last survey when this came out, DBT labs, number one leader in that data integration space, I'm going to just pull it up real quickly. It looks like they had a 33% overall net sentiment to lead data analytics integration. So they are clearly growing, it's fourth straight survey consecutively that they've grown. The other name we're seeing there a little bit is Cribl, but DBT labs is by far the number one player in this space. >> All right. Okay, cool. Moving on, let's go to number nine. With Automation mixer resurgence in 2023, we're showing again data. The x axis is overlap or presence in the dataset, and the vertical axis is shared net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum. As always, you've seen UI path and Microsoft Power Automate up until the right, that red line, that 40% line is generally considered elevated. UI path is really separating, creating some distance from Automation Anywhere, they, you know, previous quarters they were much closer. Microsoft Power Automate came on the scene in a big way, they loom large with this "Good enough" approach. I will say this, I, somebody sent me a results of a (indistinct) survey, which showed UiPath actually had more mentions than Power Automate, which was surprising, but I think that's not been the case in the ETR data set. We're definitely seeing a shift from back office to front soft office kind of workloads. Having said that, software testing is emerging as a mainstream use case, we're seeing ML and AI become embedded in end-to-end automations, and low-code is serving the line of business. And so this, we think, is going to increasingly have appeal to organizations in the coming year, who want to automate as much as possible and not necessarily, we've seen a lot of layoffs in tech, and people... You're going to have to fill the gaps with automation. That's a trend that's going to continue. >> Yep, agreed. At first that comment about Microsoft Power Automate having less citations than UiPath, that's shocking to me. I'm looking at my chart right here where Microsoft Power Automate was cited by over 60% of our entire survey takers, and UiPath at around 38%. Now don't get me wrong, 38% pervasion's fantastic, but you know you're not going to beat an entrenched Microsoft. So I don't really know where that comment came from. So UiPath, looking at it alone, it's doing incredibly well. It had a huge rebound in its net score this last survey. It had dropped going through the back half of 2022, but we saw a big spike in the last one. So it's got a net score of over 55%. A lot of people citing adoption and increasing. So that's really what you want to see for a name like this. The problem is that just Microsoft is doing its playbook. At the end of the day, I'm going to do a POC, why am I going to pay more for UiPath, or even take on another separate bill, when we know everyone's consolidating vendors, if my license already includes Microsoft Power Automate? It might not be perfect, it might not be as good, but what I'm hearing all the time is it's good enough, and I really don't want another invoice. >> Right. So how does UiPath, you know, and Automation Anywhere, how do they compete with that? Well, the way they compete with it is they got to have a better product. They got a product that's 10 times better. You know, they- >> Right. >> they're not going to compete based on where the lowest cost, Microsoft's got that locked up, or where the easiest to, you know, Microsoft basically give it away for free, and that's their playbook. So that's, you know, up to UiPath. UiPath brought on Rob Ensslin, I've interviewed him. Very, very capable individual, is now Co-CEO. So he's kind of bringing that adult supervision in, and really tightening up the go to market. So, you know, we know this company has been a rocket ship, and so getting some control on that and really getting focused like a laser, you know, could be good things ahead there for that company. Okay. >> One of the problems, if I could real quick Dave, is what the use cases are. When we first came out with RPA, everyone was super excited about like, "No, UiPath is going to be great for super powerful "projects, use cases." That's not what RPA is being used for. As you mentioned, it's being used for mundane tasks, so it's not automating complex things, which I think UiPath was built for. So if you were going to get UiPath, and choose that over Microsoft, it's going to be 'cause you're doing it for more powerful use case, where it is better. But the problem is that's not where the enterprise is using it. The enterprise are using this for base rote tasks, and simply, Microsoft Power Automate can do that. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I've had people on theCube that are both Microsoft Power Automate customers and UiPath customers, and I've asked them, "Well you know, "how do you differentiate between the two?" And they've said to me, "Look, our users and personal productivity users, "they like Power Automate, "they can use it themselves, and you know, "it doesn't take a lot of, you know, support on our end." The flip side is you could do that with UiPath, but like you said, there's more of a focus now on end-to-end enterprise automation and building out those capabilities. So it's increasingly a value play, and that's going to be obviously the challenge going forward. Okay, my last one, and then I think you've got some bonus ones. Number 10, hybrid events are the new category. Look it, if I can get a thousand inbounds that are largely self-serving, I can do my own here, 'cause we're in the events business. (Eric chuckling) Here's the prediction though, and this is a trend we're seeing, the number of physical events is going to dramatically increase. That might surprise people, but most of the big giant events are going to get smaller. The exception is AWS with Reinvent, I think Snowflake's going to continue to grow. So there are examples of physical events that are growing, but generally, most of the big ones are getting smaller, and there's going to be many more smaller intimate regional events and road shows. These micro-events, they're going to be stitched together. Digital is becoming a first class citizen, so people really got to get their digital acts together, and brands are prioritizing earned media, and they're beginning to build their own news networks, going direct to their customers. And so that's a trend we see, and I, you know, we're right in the middle of it, Eric, so you know we're going to, you mentioned RSA, I think that's perhaps going to be one of those crazy ones that continues to grow. It's shrunk, and then it, you know, 'cause last year- >> Yeah, it did shrink. >> right, it was the last one before the pandemic, and then they sort of made another run at it last year. It was smaller but it was very vibrant, and I think this year's going to be huge. Global World Congress is another one, we're going to be there end of Feb. That's obviously a big big show, but in general, the brands and the technology vendors, even Oracle is going to scale down. I don't know about Salesforce. We'll see. You had a couple of bonus predictions. Quantum and maybe some others? Bring us home. >> Yeah, sure. I got a few more. I think we touched upon one, but I definitely think the data prep tools are facing extinction, unfortunately, you know, the Talons Informatica is some of those names. The problem there is that the BI tools are kind of including data prep into it already. You know, an example of that is Tableau Prep Builder, and then in addition, Advanced NLP is being worked in as well. ThoughtSpot, Intelius, both often say that as their selling point, Tableau has Ask Data, Click has Insight Bot, so you don't have to really be intelligent on data prep anymore. A regular business user can just self-query, using either the search bar, or even just speaking into what it needs, and these tools are kind of doing the data prep for it. I don't think that's a, you know, an out in left field type of prediction, but it's the time is nigh. The other one I would also state is that I think knowledge graphs are going to break through this year. Neo4j in our survey is growing in pervasion in Mindshare. So more and more people are citing it, AWS Neptune's getting its act together, and we're seeing that spending intentions are growing there. Tiger Graph is also growing in our survey sample. I just think that the time is now for knowledge graphs to break through, and if I had to do one more, I'd say real-time streaming analytics moves from the very, very rich big enterprises to downstream, to more people are actually going to be moving towards real-time streaming, again, because the data prep tools and the data pipelines have gotten easier to use, and I think the ROI on real-time streaming is obviously there. So those are three that didn't make the cut, but I thought deserved an honorable mention. >> Yeah, I'm glad you did. Several weeks ago, we did an analyst prediction roundtable, if you will, a cube session power panel with a number of data analysts and that, you know, streaming, real-time streaming was top of mind. So glad you brought that up. Eric, as always, thank you very much. I appreciate the time you put in beforehand. I know it's been crazy, because you guys are wrapping up, you know, the last quarter survey in- >> Been a nuts three weeks for us. (laughing) >> job. I love the fact that you're doing, you know, the ETS survey now, I think it's quarterly now, right? Is that right? >> Yep. >> Yep. So that's phenomenal. >> Four times a year. I'll be happy to jump on with you when we get that done. I know you were really impressed with that last time. >> It's unbelievable. This is so much data at ETR. Okay. Hey, that's a wrap. Thanks again. >> Take care Dave. Good seeing you. >> All right, many thanks to our team here, Alex Myerson as production, he manages the podcast force. Ken Schiffman as well is a critical component of our East Coast studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief. He's at siliconangle.com. He's just a great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes that are available as podcasts, wherever you listen, podcast is doing great. Just search "Breaking analysis podcast." Really appreciate you guys listening. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch, david.vellante@siliconangle.com. That's how I got all these. I really appreciate it. I went through every single one with a yellow highlighter. It took some time, (laughing) but I appreciate it. You could DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post and please check out etr.ai. Its data is amazing. Best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat music beginning) (upbeat music ending)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2. This is Dave Vellante. We're here exploring the intersection of data and analytics in the future of cloud and data. In this segment, we're going to look deeper into the life sciences business with Jesse Cugliotta, who leads the Healthcare and Life Sciences industry practice at Snowflake. And Nicholas Nick Taylor, who's the executive director of Informatics at Ionis Pharmaceuticals. Gentlemen, thanks for coming in theCUBE and participating in the program. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you for having us- >> Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome, okay, we're go really try to look at data sharing as a use case and try to understand what's happening in the healthcare industry generally and specifically, how Nick thinks about sharing data in a governed fashion whether tapping the capabilities of multiple clouds is advantageous long term or presents more challenges than the effort is worth. And to start, Jesse, you lead this industry practice for Snowflake and it's a challenging and vibrant area. It's one that's hyper-focused on data privacy. So the first question is, you know there was a time when healthcare and other regulated industries wouldn't go near the cloud. What are you seeing today in the industry around cloud adoption and specifically multi-cloud adoption? >> Yeah, for years I've heard that healthcare and life sciences has been cloud diverse, but in spite of all of that if you look at a lot of aspects of this industry today, they've been running in the cloud for over 10 years now. Particularly when you look at CRM technologies or HR or HCM, even clinical technologies like EDC or ETMF. And it's interesting that you mentioned multi-cloud as well because this has always been an underlying reality especially within life sciences. This industry grows through acquisition where companies are looking to boost their future development pipeline either by buying up smaller biotechs, they may have like a late or a mid-stage promising candidate. And what typically happens is the larger pharma could then use their commercial muscle and their regulatory experience to move it to approvals and into the market. And I think the last few decades of cheap capital certainly accelerated that trend over the last couple of years. But this typically means that these new combined institutions may have technologies that are running on multiple clouds or multiple cloud strategies in various different regions to your point. And what we've often found is that they're not planning to standardize everything onto a single cloud provider. They're often looking for technologies that embrace this multi-cloud approach and work seamlessly across them. And I think this is a big reason why we, here at Snowflake, we've seen such strong momentum and growth across this industry because healthcare and life science has actually been one of our fastest growing sectors over the last couple of years. And a big part of that is in fact that we run on not only all three major cloud providers, but individual accounts within each and any one of them, they had the ability to communicate and interoperate with one another, like a globally interconnected database. >> Great, thank you for that setup. And so Nick, tell us more about your role and Ionis Pharma please. >> Sure. So I've been at Ionis for around five years now. You know, when when I joined it was, the IT department was pretty small. There wasn't a lot of warehousing, there wasn't a lot of kind of big data there. We saw an opportunity with Snowflake pretty early on as a provider that would be a lot of benefit for us, you know, 'cause we're small, wanted something that was fairly hands off. You know, I remember the days where you had to get a lot of DBAs in to fine tune your databases, make sure everything was running really, really well. The notion that there's, you know, no indexes to tune, right? There's very few knobs and dials, you can turn on Snowflake. That was appealing that, you know, it just kind of worked. So we found a use case to bring the platform in. We basically used it as a logging replacement as a Splunk kind of replacement with a platform called Elysium Analytics as a way to just get it in the door and give us the opportunity to solve a real world use case, but also to help us start to experiment using Snowflake as a platform. It took us a while to A, get the funding to bring it in, but B, build the momentum behind it. But, you know, as we experimented we added more data in there, we ran a few more experiments, we piloted in few more applications, we really saw the power of the platform and now, we are becoming a commercial organization. And with that comes a lot of major datasets. And so, you know, we really see Snowflake as being a very important part of our ecology going forward to help us build out our infrastructure. >> Okay, and you are running, your group runs on Azure, it's kind of mono cloud, single cloud, but others within Ionis are using other clouds, but you're not currently, you know, collaborating in terms of data sharing. And I wonder if you could talk about how your data needs have evolved over the past decade. I know you came from another highly regulated industry in financial services. So what's changed? You sort of touched on this before, you had these, you know, very specialized individuals who were, you know, DBAs, and, you know, could tune databases and the like, so that's evolved, but how has generally your needs evolved? Just kind of make an observation over the last, you know, five or seven years. What have you seen? >> Well, we, I wasn't in a group that did a lot of warehousing. It was more like online trade capture, but, you know, it was very much on-prem. You know, being in the cloud is very much a dirty word back then. I know that's changed since I've left. But in, you know, we had major, major teams of everyone who could do everything, right. As I mentioned in the pharma organization, there's a lot fewer of us. So the data needs there are very different, right? It's, we have a lot of SaaS applications. One of the difficulties with bringing a lot of SaaS applications on board is obviously data integration. So making sure the data is the same between them. But one of the big problems is joining the data across those SaaS applications. So one of the benefits, one of the things that we use Snowflake for is to basically take data out of these SaaS applications and load them into a warehouse so we can do those joins. So we use technologies like Boomi, we use technologies like Fivetran, like DBT to bring this data all into one place and start to kind of join that basically, allow us to do, run experiments, do analysis, basically take better, find better use for our data that was siloed in the past. You mentioned- >> Yeah. And just to add on to Nick's point there. >> Go ahead. >> That's actually something very common that we're seeing across the industry is because a lot of these SaaS applications that you mentioned, Nick, they're with from vendors that are trying to build their own ecosystem in walled garden. And by definition, many of them do not want to integrate with one another. So from a, you know, from a data platform vendor's perspective, we see this as a huge opportunity to help organizations like Ionis and others kind of deal with the challenges that Nick is speaking about because if the individual platform vendors are never going to make that part of their strategy, we see it as a great way to add additional value to these customers. >> Well, this data sharing thing is interesting. There's a lot of walled gardens out there. Oracle is a walled garden, AWS in many ways is a walled garden. You know, Microsoft has its walled garden. You could argue Snowflake is a walled garden. But the, what we're seeing and the whole reason behind the notion of super-cloud is we're creating an abstraction layer where you actually, in this case for this use case, can share data in a governed manner. Let's forget about the cross-cloud for a moment. I'll come back to that, but I wonder, Nick, if you could talk about how you are sharing data, again, Snowflake sort of, it's, I look at Snowflake like the app store, Apple, we're going to control everything, we're going to guarantee with data clean rooms and governance and the standards that we've created within that platform, we're going to make sure that it's safe for you to share data in this highly regulated industry. Are you doing that today? And take us through, you know, the considerations that you have in that regard. >> So it's kind of early days for us in Snowflake in general, but certainly in data sharing, we have a couple of examples. So data marketplace, you know, that's a great invention. It's, I've been a small IT shop again, right? The fact that we are able to just bring down terabyte size datasets straight into our Snowflake and run analytics directly on that is huge, right? The fact that we don't have to FTP these massive files around run jobs that may break, being able to just have that on tap is huge for us. We've recently been talking to one of our CRO feeds- CRO organizations about getting their data feeds in. Historically, this clinical trial data that comes in on an FTP file, we have to process it, take it through the platforms, put it into the warehouse. But one of the CROs that we talked to recently when we were reinvestigate in what data opportunities they have, they were a Snowflake customer and we are, I think, the first production customer they have, have taken that feed. So they're basically exposing their tables of data that historically came in these FTP files directly into our Snowflake instance now. We haven't taken advantage of that. It only actually flipped the switch about three or four weeks ago. But that's pretty big for us again, right? We don't have to worry about maintaining those jobs that take those files in. We don't have to worry about the jobs that take those and shove them on the warehouse. We now have a feed that's directly there that we can use a tool like DBT to push through directly into our model. And then the third avenue that's came up, actually fairly recently as well was genetics data. So genetics data that's highly, highly regulated. We had to be very careful with that. And we had a conversation with Snowflake about the data white rooms practice, and we see that as a pretty interesting opportunity. We are having one organization run genetic analysis being able to send us those genetic datasets, but then there's another organization that's actually has the in quotes "metadata" around that, so age, ethnicity, location, et cetera. And being able to join those two datasets through some kind of mechanism would be really beneficial to the organization. Being able to build a data white room so we can put that genetic data in a secure place, anonymize it, and then share the amalgamated data back out in a way that's able to be joined to the anonymized metadata, that could be pretty huge for us as well. >> Okay, so this is interesting. So you talk about FTP, which was the common way to share data. And so you basically, it's so, I got it now you take it and do whatever you want with it. Now we're talking, Jesse, about sharing the same copy of live data. How common is that use case in your industry? >> It's become very common over the last couple of years. And I think a big part of it is having the right technology to do it effectively. You know, as Nick mentioned, historically, this was done by people sending files around. And the challenge with that approach, of course, while there are multiple challenges, one, every time you send a file around your, by definition creating a copy of the data because you have to pull it out of your system of record, put it into a file, put it on some server where somebody else picks it up. And by definition at that point you've lost governance. So this creates challenges in general hesitation to doing so. It's not that it hasn't happened, but the other challenge with it is that the data's no longer real time. You know, you're working with a copy of data that was as fresh as at the time at that when that was actually extracted. And that creates limitations in terms of how effective this can be. What we're starting to see now with some of our customers is live sharing of information. And there's two aspects of that that are important. One is that you're not actually physically creating the copy and sending it to someone else, you're actually exposing it from where it exists and allowing another consumer to interact with it from their own account that could be in another region, some are running in another cloud. So this concept of super-cloud or cross-cloud could becoming realized here. But the other important aspect of it is that when that other- when that other entity is querying your data, they're seeing it in a real time state. And this is particularly important when you think about use cases like supply chain planning, where you're leveraging data across various different enterprises. If I'm a manufacturer or if I'm a contract manufacturer and I can see the actual inventory positions of my clients, of my distributors, of the levels of consumption at the pharmacy or the hospital that gives me a lot of indication as to how my demand profile is changing over time versus working with a static picture that may have been from three weeks ago. And this has become incredibly important as supply chains are becoming more constrained and the ability to plan accurately has never been more important. >> Yeah. So the race is on to solve these problems. So it start, we started with, hey, okay, cloud, Dave, we're going to simplify database, we're going to put it in the cloud, give virtually infinite resources, separate compute from storage. Okay, check, we got that. Now we've moved into sort of data clean rooms and governance and you've got an ecosystem that's forming around this to make it safer to share data. And then, you know, nirvana, at least near term nirvana is we're going to build data applications and we're going to be able to share live data and then you start to get into monetization. Do you see, Nick, in the near future where I know you've got relationships with, for instance, big pharma like AstraZeneca, do you see a situation where you start sharing data with them? Is that in the near term? Is that more long term? What are the considerations in that regard? >> I mean, it's something we've been thinking about. We haven't actually addressed that yet. Yeah, I could see situations where, you know, some of these big relationships where we do need to share a lot of data, it would be very nice to be able to just flick a switch and share our data assets across to those organizations. But, you know, that's a ways off for us now. We're mainly looking at bringing data in at the moment. >> One of the things that we've seen in financial services in particular, and Jesse, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is companies like Goldman or Capital One or Nasdaq taking their stack, their software, their tooling actually putting it on the cloud and facing it to their customers and selling that as a new monetization vector as part of their digital or business transformation. Are you seeing that Jesse at all in healthcare or is it happening today or do you see a day when that happens or is healthier or just too scary to do that? >> No, we're seeing the early stages of this as well. And I think it's for some of the reasons we talked about earlier. You know, it's a much more secure way to work with a colleague if you don't have to copy your data and potentially expose it. And some of the reasons that people have historically copied that data is that they needed to leverage some sort of algorithm or application that a third party was providing. So maybe someone was predicting the ideal location and run a clinical trial for this particular rare disease category where there are only so many patients around the world that may actually be candidates for this disease. So you have to pick the ideal location. Well, sending the dataset to do so, you know, would involve a fairly complicated process similar to what Nick was mentioning earlier. If the company who was providing the logic or the algorithm to determine that location could bring that algorithm to you and you run it against your own data, that's a much more ideal and a much safer and more secure way for this industry to actually start to work with some of these partners and vendors. And that's one of the things that we're looking to enable going into this year is that, you know, the whole concept should be bring the logic to your data versus your data to the logic and the underlying sharing mechanisms that we've spoken about are actually what are powering that today. >> And so thank you for that, Jesse. >> Yes, Dave. >> And so Nick- Go ahead please. >> Yeah, if I could add, yeah, if I could add to that, that's something certainly we've been thinking about. In fact, we'd started talking to Snowflake about that a couple of years ago. We saw the power there again of the platform to be able to say, well, could we, we were thinking in more of a data share, but could we share our data out to say an AI/ML vendor, have them do the analytics and then share the data, the results back to us. Now, you know, there's more powerful mechanisms to do that within the Snowflake ecosystem now, but you know, we probably wouldn't need to have onsite AI/ML people, right? Some of that stuff's very sophisticated, expensive resources, hard to find, you know, it's much better for us to find a company that would be able to build those analytics, maintain those analytics for us. And you know, we saw an opportunity to do that a couple years ago and we're kind of excited about the opportunity there that we can just basically do it with a no op, right? We share the data route, we have the analytics done, we get the result back and it's just fairly seamless. >> I mean, I could have a whole another Cube session on this, guys, but I mean, I just did a a session with Andy Thurai, a Constellation research about how difficult it's been for organization to get ROI because they don't have the expertise in house so they want to either outsource it or rely on vendor R&D companies to inject that AI and machine intelligence directly into applications. My follow-up question to you Nick is, when you think about, 'cause Jesse was talking about, you know, let the data basically stay where it is and you know bring the compute to that data. If that data lives on different clouds, and maybe it's not your group, but maybe it's other parts of Ionis or maybe it's your partners like AstraZeneca, or you know, the AI/ML partners and they're potentially on other clouds or that data is on other clouds. Do you see that, again, coming back to super-cloud, do you see it as an advantage to be able to have a consistent experience across those clouds? Or is that just kind of get in the way and make things more complex? What's your take on that, Nick? >> Well, from the vendors, so from the client side, it's kind of seamless with Snowflake for us. So we know for a fact that one of the datasets we have at the moment, Compile, which is a, the large multi terabyte dataset I was talking about. They're on AWS on the East Coast and we are on Azure on the West Coast. And they had to do a few tweaks in the background to make sure the data was pushed over from, but from my point of view, the data just exists, right? So for me, I think it's hugely beneficial that Snowflake supports this kind of infrastructure, right? We don't have to jump through hoops to like, okay, well, we'll download it here and then re-upload it here. They already have the mechanism in the background to do these multi-cloud shares. So it's not important for us internally at the moment. I could see potentially at some point where we start linking across different groups in the organization that do have maybe Amazon or Google Cloud, but certainly within our providers. We know for a fact that they're on different services at the moment and it just works. >> Yeah, and we learned from Benoit Dageville, who came into the studio on August 9th with first Supercloud in 2022 that Snowflake uses a single global instance across regions and across clouds, yeah, whether or not you can query across you know, big regions, it just depends, right? It depends on latency. You might have to make a copy or maybe do some tweaks in the background. But guys, we got to jump, I really appreciate your time. Really thoughtful discussion on the future of data and cloud, specifically within healthcare and pharma. Thank you for your time. >> Thanks- >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE team and my co-host, John Furrier. Keep it right there for more action at Supercloud 2. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, brilliant cloud community, and welcome back to AWS re:Invent. We are here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by my co-host Dave Vellante. Dave, how you doing? >> I'm doing well, thanks, yeah. >> Yeah, I feel like... >> I'm hanging in there. >> you've got a lot of pep in your step today for the fourth day. >> I think my voice is coming back, actually. >> (laughs) Look at you, resilient. >> I was almost lost yesterday, yeah. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> So, I actually, at a Hitachi event one time almost completely lost my voice. The production guys pulled me off. They said, "You're done." (Savannah laughing) They gave me the hook. >> You got booted? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, you actually (laughs) got the hook, wow. >> So, I have good memories of Hitachi. >> I was going to say (Dave laughing) interesting that you mentioned Hitachi. Our two guests this morning are from Hitachi. Sid and KP, welcome to the show. >> Thank you. >> Savannah: How you guys doing? Looking great for day four. >> Great. Thank you. >> Great. >> Hanging in there. >> Thank you, Dave and Savannah. (Savannah laughing) >> Dave: Yeah, cool. >> Savannah: Yeah. (laughs) >> Yeah, it was actually a Pentaho thing, right? >> Oh, Pentaho? Yeah. >> Which kind of you guys into that software edge. It was right when you announced the name change to Hitachi Vantara, which is very cool. I had Brian Householder on. You remember Brian? >> Yeah, I know. >> He was explaining the vision, and yeah (indistinct). >> Yeah. Well, look at you a little Hitachi (indistinct). >> Yeah, I've been around a long time, yeah. >> Yeah, all right. (Dave laughing) >> Just a casual flex to start us off there, Dave. I love it. I love it. Sid, we've talked a lot on the show about delivering outcomes. It's a hot theme. Everyone wants to actually have tangible business outcomes from all of this. How are customers realizing value from the cloud? What does that mean? >> See, still 2007, 2008, it was either/or kind of architecture. Either I'm going to execute my use cases on cloud or I'm going to keep my use cases and outcomes through edge. But in the last four or five years and specifically we are in re:Invent, I would talk about AWS. Lot of the power of hyperscalers has been brought to edge. If you talk about the snowball family of AWS, if you talk about monitor on edge devices, if you talk about the entire server list being brought into Lambda coupled inside snowball, now the architecture premise, if I talk about logical shift is end. Now the customers are talking about executing the use cases between edge and cloud. So, there is a continuum rather than a binary bullion decision. So, if you are talking about optimizing a factory, earlier I'll do the analytics at cloud, and I'll do machine on edge. Now it is optimization of a factory outcome at scale across my entire manufacturing where edge, private cloud, AWS, hyperscalers, everything is a continuum. And the customer is not worried about where, which part of my data ops, network ops, server ops storage ops is being executed. >> Savannah: It's like (indistinct). >> The customer is enjoying the use cases. And the orchestration is abstracted through an industrial player like Hitachi working very collaboratively with AWS. So, that is how we are working on industrial use cases right now. >> You brought up manufacturing. I don't think there's been a hotter conversation around supply chain and manufacturing than there has been the last few years. I can imagine taking that guessing game out for customers is a huge deal for you guys. >> Big because if you look at the world today, right from a safety pin, to a cell phone jacket, to a cell phone, the entire supply chain is throttled. The supply chain is throttled because there are various choke points. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And each choke points is surrounded by different kind of supply and geopolitical issues. >> Savannah: 100%. >> Now, if we talk about the wheat crisis happening because of the Ukraine-Russia war, but the wheat crisis actually creates a multiple string of impacts which impact everything. Silicon, now we talk about silicon, but we then forget about nickel. Nickel is also controlled in one part of that geopolitical conflict. So, everything is getting conflagrated into a very big supply issue. So, if your factories are not performing beyond optimum, if they are not performing at real, I'm, we are talking about factory, hyperscale of the factory. The factory needs to perform at hyperscale to provide what the world needs today. So, we are in a very different kind of a scenario. Some of the economists call it earlier the recession was because of a demand constraint. The demand used to go down. Today's recession is because the supply is going down. The demand is there, but the supply is going down. And there is a different kind of recession in the world. The supply is what is getting throttled. >> And the demand is somewhat unpredictable too. People, you know, retailers, they've... >> Especially right now. >> kind of messed up their inventory. And so, the data is still siloed. And that's where, you know, you get to, okay, can I have the same experience across clouds, on-prem, out to the edge? Kind of bust those silos. >> Yep. >> You know, I dunno if it's, it's certainly not entirely a data problem. There's (laughs), like you say, geopolitical and social issues. >> Savannah: There's so much complexity. >> But there's a data problem too. >> Yes. >> Big. >> So, I wonder if you could talk about your sort of view of, point of view on that cross-cloud, hybrid, out to the edge, what I call super cloud? >> Absolutely. So, today, if you look at how enterprises are adopting cloud or how they're leveraging cloud, it's not just a hosting platform, right? It is the platform from where they can draw business capabilities. You heard in the re:Invent that Amazon is coming up with a supply chain service out of the box in the cloud. That's the kind of capabilities that business wants to draw from cloud today. So, the kind of multicloud or like hybrid cloud, public cloud, private cloud, those are the things which are kind of going to be behind the scenes. At the end of the day, the cloud needs to be able to support businesses by providing their services closer to their consumers. So, the challenges are going to be there in terms of like reliability, resilience, cost, security. Those are the ones that, you know, many of the enterprises are grappling with in terms of the challenges. And the way to solve that, the way how we approach our customers and work with them is to be able to bring resilience into the cloud, into the services which are running in cloud, and by driving automation, making autonomous in everything that you do, how you are monitoring your services, how we are making it available, how we are securing it, how we are making it very cost-effective as well. It cannot be manually executed; it has to be automated. So, automation is the key in terms of making the services leveraged from all of this cloud. >> That's your value add. >> Absolutely. >> And how do I consume that value add? Is it sort of embedded into infrastructure? Is it a service layer on top? >> Yeah, so everything that we do today in terms of like how these services have to be provided, how the services have to be consumed, there has to be a modern operating model, right? I think this is where Hitachi has come up with what we are calling as Hitachi Application Reliability Center and Services. That is focusing on modern operating, modern ways of like, you know, how you support these cloud workloads and driving this automation. So, whether we provide a hyper-converged infrastructure that is going to be at the edge location, or we are going to be able to take a customer through the journey of modernization or migrating onto cloud, the operating model that is going to be able to establish the foundation on cloud and then to be able to operate with the right levels of reliability, security, cost is the key. And that's the value added service that we provide. And then the way we do that is essentially by looking at three principles: one, to look at the service in totality. Gone are the days you look at infrastructure separately, applications separately, data and security separately, right? >> Savannah: No more silos. >> No more silos. You look at it as a workload, and you look at it as a service. And number two is to make sure that the DevOps that you bring and what you do at the table is totally integrated and it's end to end. It's not a product team developing a feature and then ops team trying to keep the lights on. It has to be a common backlog with the error budget that looks at you know, product releases, product functionalities, and even what ops needs to do to evolve the product as well. And then the third is to make sure that reliability and resiliency is inbuilt. Cloud offers native durability, native availability. But if your service doesn't take advantage of that, it's kind of going to still be not available. So, how do you kind of ingrain and embed all of these things as a value add that we provide? >> There's a lot of noise. We've got hybrid cloud. We've got multicloud. We've got a lot going on. It adds to the complexity. How do you help customers solve that complexity as they begin their transformation journey? I mean, I'm sure you're working with the biggest companies, making really massive change. How do you guide them through that process? >> So, it is to look at the outcome working backwards, like what AWS does, right? Like, you know, how do you look at the business outcome? What is the value that you're looking to drive? Again, it's not to be pinned through one particular cloud. I know there is lot of technology choices that you can make and lot of deployment models that you can choose from. But at the end of the day, having a common operating model which is kind of like modern, agile, and it is kind of like keeping the outcomes in the mind, that is what we do with our customers to be able to create that operating model, which completes the transformation, by the way. And cloud is just one part of the LEGO blocks which provides that overall scheme and then the view for driving that overall transformation. >> So, let's paint a picture. Let's say you've got this resilient foundation; you've kind of helped the customers build that out. How do they turn that into value for their customers? Do you have any examples that you can share? That'd be great. >> Yeah, I can start with what we're doing for one of the, you know, world's largest facility, infrastructure, power, cooling, security, monitoring company that has their products deployed in 2,000 locations across the globe. For them, and always on business means you are monitoring the temperature. You are monitoring the safety of people who are within the facility, right? A temperature shift of one to two degree can affect even the sustainability goals of NARC, our customer, but also their end consumers. So, how do you monitor these kind of like critical parameters? How do you have a platform? >> Savannah: Great example, yeah. >> How you have cloud resources that are going to be always on, that are going to be reliable, that are going to be cost-effective as well is what we are doing for one of our customers. Sid can talk about another example as well. >> Great. >> Yeah, go for it, Sid. >> So, there are examples: rail. We are working with a group in England; it's called West Coast Partnership. And they had a edge device which was increasing in size. Now, this edge device was becoming big because the parameters which go into the edge device were increasing because of regulation and because the rail is part of national security infrastructure. We have worked with West Coast Partnership and Hitachi Rail, which is a group company, to create a miniaturization of this edge device, because if the size of the edge device is increasing on the train, then the weight of the train increases, and the speed profile, velocity profile, everything goes down. So, we have miniaturized the edge device. Secondly, all the data profiles, signal control, traction control, traction motors, direction control, timetable compliance, everything has been kept uniform. And we have done analytics on cloud. So, what is the behavior of the driver? What is a big breaking parameter of the driver? If the timetable has being missed, is there an erratic behavior being demonstrated by the driver to just meet the timetable? And the timetable is a pretty important criteria in rail because if you miss one, then... So, what we have done is we have created an edge-to-cloud environment where the entire rail analytics is happening. Similarly, in another group company, Hitachi Energy, they had a problem that arguably one of the largest transformer manufacturer in the world. The transformer is a pretty common name now because you're seeing what is happening in Ukraine. Russia went after the transformers and substations before the start of the winter so that their district heating can be meddled with. Now, the transformer, it had a lead time of 17 weeks before COVID. So, if you put me an order of a three-phase transformer, I can deliver it to you in 17 weeks. After and during COVID, the entire lead time increased to 57 to 58 weeks. In cases of a complex transformer, it even went up to something like two years. >> Savannah: Ooh! >> Now, they wanted to increase the productivity of their existing plant because there is only that much sheet metal, that much copper for solenoid, that much microprocessor and silicon. So, they wanted to increase the output of their factory from 95 to 105, 10 more transformers every day, which is 500 and, which is 3,650 every- >> Savannah: Year. >> Year. Now, to do that, we went to a very complex machine; it's called a guard machine. And we increased the productivity of the guard machine by just analyzing all the throttles and all the wastages which are happening there. There are multiple case studies because, see, Hitachi is an industrial giant with 105 years of body of work. KP and I just represent the tip of the digital tip of the arrow. But what we are trying to do through HARC, through industry cloud, through partnership with AWS is basically containerizing and miniaturizing our entire body of work into a democratized environment, an industrial app store, if I may say, where people can come and take their industrial outcomes at ease without worrying about their computational and network orchestration between edge and cloud. That's what we are trying to do. >> I love that analogy of an industrial app cloud. Makes it feel easier in decreasing the complexity of all the different things that everyone's factoring into making their products, whatever they're making. So, we have a new challenge here on theCUBE at AWS re:Invent, where we are looking for your 30-second hot take, your Instagram reel, sound bite. What's the most important story or theme either for you as a team or coming out of the show? You can ponder it for a second. >> It might be different. See, for me, it is industrial security. Industrial OT security should be the theme of the Western world. Western world is on the crosshairs of multiple bad actors. And the industrial security is in the chemical plants, is in the industrial plants, is in the power grids, is in our postal networks and our rail networks. They need to be secured; otherwise, we are geopolitically very weak. Gone are the days when anyone is going to pick up a battle with America or Western world on a field. The battle is going to be pretty clandestine on an cyber world. And that is why industrial security is very important. >> Critical infrastructure and protecting it. >> Absolutely. >> Well said, Sid. KP, what's your hot take? >> My take is going to be a modern operating model, which is going to complete the transformation and to be able to tap into business services from cloud. So, a modern operating model through HARC, that is going to be my take. >> Fantastic. Well, can't wait to see what comes out of Hitachi next. Sid, KP... >> KP: Thank you. >> thank you so much for being here. >> Sid: Thank you. >> Absolutely. >> Dave: Thanks, guys. >> Savannah: This is I could talk to you all about supply chain all day long. And thank all of you for tuning in to our continuous live coverage here from AWS re:Invent in fantastic Sin City. I'm Savannah. Oh, excuse me. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (digital xylophone music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Hello, wonderful cloud community, and welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent. My name is Savannah Peterson, and I am very excited to be joined by two brilliant gentlemen today. Please welcome Keith from Cockroach Labs and Jeff from AMD. Thank you both for tuning in, coming in from the East coast. How you doing? >> Not too bad. A little cold, but we're going >> Doing great. >> Love that and I love the enthusiasm Keith, you're definitely bringing the heat in the green room before we got on, so I'm going to open this up with you. Cockroach Labs puts out a pretty infamous and useful cloud report each year. Can you tell us a little bit about that, the approach and the data that you report on? >> Yeah, so Cockroach Labs builds a distributed SQL database that we are able to run across multiple cloud regions, multiple sites, multiple data centers. Frequently is running a hybrid kind of a use case and it's important for our customers to be able to compare the performance of configurations when they don't have exact the same hardware available to them in every single location. So since we were already doing this internally for ourselves and for our customers, we decided to turn it into something we shared with the greater community. And it's been a great experience for us. A lot of people come and ask us every year, "Hey, when's the new cloud report coming out?" Because they want to read it. It's been a great win for us. >> How many different things are you looking at? I mean, when you're comparing configurations I imagine there's a lot of different complex variables there. Just how much are you taking into consideration when you publish this report? >> Yeah, so we look at micro benchmarks around CPU network and storage. And then our flagship benchmark is we use the database itself where we have the most expertise to create a real world benchmark on across all of these instances. This year I think we tested over 150 different discrete configurations and it's a bit of a labor of love for us because we then not only do we consume it for best practices for our own as a service offering, but we share it with our customers. We use it internally to make all kinds of different decisions. >> Yeah, 150 different comparisons is not a small number. And Jeff, I know that AMD's position in this cloud report is really important. Where do you fit into all of this and what does it mean for you? >> Right, so what it means for us and for our customers is, there's a good breath and depth of testing that has gone of from the lab. And you look at this cloud report and it helps them traverse this landscape of, why to go on instance A, B, or C on certain workloads. And it really is very meaningful because they now have the real data across all those dimensional kinds of tests. So this definitely helps not only the customers but also for ourselves. So we can now look at ourselves more independently for feedback loops and say, "Hey, here's where we're doing well, here's where we're doing okay, here's where we need to improve on." All those things are important for us. So love seeing the lab present out such a great report as I've seen, very comprehensive, so I very much appreciate it. >> And specifically I love that you're both fans of each other, obviously, specifically digging in there, what does it mean that AMD had the best performance ratio tested on AWS instances? >> Yeah, so when we're looking at instances, we're not just looking at how fast something is, we're also looking at how much it costs to get that level of performance because CockroachDB as a distributed system has the opportunity to scale up and out. And so rather than necessarily wanting the fastest single instance performance, which is an important metric for certain use cases for sure, the comparison of price for performance when you can add notes to get more performance can be a much more economical thing for a lot of our customers. And so AMD has had a great showing on the price performance ratio for I think two years now. And it makes it hard to justify other instance types in a lot of circumstances simply because it's cheaper to get, for each transaction per second that you need, it's cheaper to use an AMD instance than it would be a competitive instance from another vendor. >> I mean, everyone I think no matter their sector wants to do things faster and cheaper and you're able to achieve both, it's easy to see why it's a choice that many folks would like to make. So what do these results mean for CIOs and CTOs? I can imagine there's a lot of value here in the FinOps world. >> Yep. Oh, I'll start a few of 'em. So from the C-suite when they're really looking at the problem statement, think of it as less granular, but higher level. So they're really looking at CapEx, OpEx, sustainability, security, sort of ecosystem on there. And then as Keith pointed out, hey, there's this TCO conversation that has to happen. In other words, as they're moving from sort of this lift and shift from their on-prem into the cloud, what does that mean to them for spend? So now if you're looking at the consistency around sort of the performance and the total cost of running this to their insights, to the conclusions, less time, more money in their pocket and maybe a reduction for their own customers so they can provide better for the customer side. What you're actually seeing is that's the challenge that they're facing in that landscape that they're driving towards that they need guidance and help with towards that. And we find AMD lends itself well to that scale out architecture that connects so well with how cloud microservices are run today. >> It's not surprising to hear that. Keith, what other tips and tricks do you have for CIOs and CTOs trying to reduce FinOps and continue to excel as they're building out? >> Yeah, so there were a couple of other insights that we learned this year. One of those two insights that I'd like to mention is that it's not always obvious what size and shape infrastructure you need to acquire to maximize your cost productions, right? So we found that smaller instance types were by and large had a better TCO than larger instances even across the exact same configurations, we kept everything else the same. Smaller instances had a better price performance ratio than the larger instances. The other thing that we discovered this year that was really interesting, we did a bit of a cost analysis on networking. And largely because we're distributed system, we can scan span across availability zones, we can span across regions, right? And one of the things we discovered this year is the amount of cost for transferring data between availability zones and the amount of cost for transferring data across regions at least in the United States was the same. So you could potentially get more resiliency by spanning your infrastructure across regions, then you would necessarily just spanning across availability zones. So you could be across multiple regions at the same cost as you were across availability zones, which for something like CockroachDB, we were designed to support those workloads is a really big and important thing for us. Now you have to be very particular about where you're purchasing your infrastructure and where those regions are. Because those data transfer rates change depending on what the source and the target is. But at least within the United States, we found that there was a strong correlation to being more survivable if you were in a multi-region deployment and the cost stayed pretty flat. >> That's interesting. So it's interesting to see what the correlation is between things and when you think there may be relationship between variables and when there maybe isn't. So on that note, since it seems like you're both always learning, I can imagine, what are you excited to test or learn about looking forward? Jeff, let's start with you actually. >> For sort of future testing. One of those things is certainly those more scale out sort of workloads with respect to showing scale. Meaning as I'm increasing the working set, as I'm increasing the number of connections, variability is another big thing of showing that minimization from run to run because performance is interesting but consistency is better. And as the lower side is from the instant sizes as I was talking about earlier, a (indistinct) architecture lends itself so well to it because they have the local caching and the CCDs that you can now put a number of vCPUs that will benefit from that delivery of the local caching and drive better performance at the lower side for that scale out sort of architecture, which is so consistent with the microservices. So I would be looking for more of those dimensional testings variability across a variety of workloads that you can go from memory intense workloads to database persistence store as well as a blend of the two, Kafka, et cetera. So there's a great breath and depth of testing that I am looking for and to more connect with sort of the CTOs and CIOs, the higher level that really show them that that CapEx, OpEx, sustainability and provide a bit more around that side of it because those are are the big things that they're focused on as well as security, the fact that based on working sets et cetera, AMD has the ability with confidential compute around those kind of offerings that can start to drive to those outcomes and help from what the CTOs and CIOs are looking for from compliance as well. So set them out (indistinct). >> So you're excited about a lot. No, that's great. That means you're very excited about the future. >> It's a journey that continues as Keith knows, there's always something new. >> Yeah, absolutely. What about you Keith? What is the most excited on the journey? >> Yeah, there are a couple of things I'd like to see us test next year. One of those is to test a multi-region CockroachDB config. We have a lot of customers running in that configuration and production but we haven't scaled that testing up to the same breadth that we we do with our single region testing which is what we've based the cloud report on for the past four years. The other thing that I'd really love to see us do,, I'm a Kubernetes SME, at least that's kind of my technical background. I would love to see us get to a spot where we're comparing the performance of raw EC2 instances to using that same infrastructure running CockroachDB via EKS and kind of see what the differences are there. The vast majority of CockroachDB customers are running at least a portion of their infrastructure in Kubernetes. So I feel like that would be a real great value add to the report for the next time that we go around but go about publishing it. >> If I don't mind adding to that just to volley it back for a moment. And also as I was saying about the ScaleOut and how it leverages our AMD architecture so well with EKS specifically around the spin up, spin down. So you think of a whole development life cycle. As they grow and shrink the resources over time, time of those spin ups to spin downs are expensive. So that has to be as reduced as much as possible. And I think they'll see a lot of benefits in AMD's architecture with EKS running on it as well. >> The future is bright. There's a lot of hype about many of the technologies that you both just mentioned, so I'm very curious to see what the next cloud report looks like. Thank you Keith, and the team for the labor of love that you put into that every year. And Jeff, I hope that you continue to be as well positioned as everyone's innovation journey continues. Keith and Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. As you know, this is a continuation of our coverage of AWS re:Invent here on theCUBE. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our next fascinating segment. (upbeat music)

(lively music) >> Good morning. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage at Supercomputing Conference 2022, live here in Dallas. I'm Dave Nicholson with my co-host Paul Gillin. So far so good, Paul? It's been a fascinating morning Three days in, and a fascinating guest, Ian from AWS. Welcome. >> Thanks, Dave. >> What are we going to talk about? Batch computing, HPC. >> We've got a lot, let's get started. Let's dive right in. >> Yeah, we've got a lot to talk about. I mean, first thing is we recently announced our batch support for EKS. EKS is our Kubernetes, managed Kubernetes offering at AWS. And so batch computing is still a large portion of HPC workloads. While the interactive component is growing, the vast majority of systems are just kind of fire and forget, and we want to run thousands and thousands of nodes in parallel. We want to scale out those workloads. And what's unique about our AWS batch offering, is that we can dynamically scale, based upon the queue depth. And so customers can go from seemingly nothing up to thousands of nodes, and while they're executing their work they're only paying for the instances while they're working. And then as the queue depth starts to drop and the number of jobs waiting in the queue starts to drop, then we start to dynamically scale down those resources. And so it's extremely powerful. We see lots of distributed machine learning, autonomous vehicle simulation, and traditional HPC workloads taking advantage of AWS Batch. >> So when you have a Kubernetes cluster does it have to be located in the same region as the HPC cluster that's going to be doing the batch processing, or does the nature of batch processing mean, in theory, you can move something from here to somewhere relatively far away to do the batch processing? How does that work? 'Cause look, we're walking around here and people are talking about lengths of cables in order to improve performance. So what does that look like when you peel back the cover and you look at it physically, not just logically, AWS is everywhere, but physically, what does that look like? >> Oh, physically, for us, it depends on what the customer's looking for. We have workflows that are all entirely within a single region. And so where they could have a portion of say the traditional HPC workflow, is within that region as well as the batch, and they're saving off the results, say to a shared storage file system like our Amazon FSx for Lustre, or maybe aging that back to an S3 object storage for a little lower cost storage solution. Or you can have customers that have a kind of a multi-region orchestration layer to where they say, "You know what? "I've got a portion of my workflow that occurs "over on the other side of the country "and I replicate my data between the East Coast "and the West Coast just based upon business needs. "And I want to have that available to customers over there. "And so I'll do a portion of it in the East Coast "a portion of it in the West Coast." Or you can think of that even globally. It really depends upon the customer's architecture. >> So is the intersection of Kubernetes with HPC, is this relatively new? I know you're saying you're, you're announcing it. >> It really is. I think we've seen a growing perspective. I mean, Kubernetes has been a long time kind of eating everything, right, in the enterprise space? And now a lot of CIOs in the industrial space are saying, "Why am I using one orchestration layer "to manage my HPC infrastructure and another one "to manage my enterprise infrastructure?" And so there's a growing appreciation that, you know what, why don't we just consolidate on one? And so that's where we've seen a growth of Kubernetes infrastructure and our own managed Kubernetes EKS on AWS. >> Last month you announced a general availability of Trainium, of a chip that's optimized for AI training. Talk about what's special about that chip or what is is customized to the training workloads. >> Yeah, what's unique about the Trainium, is you'll you'll see 40% price performance over any other GPU available in the AWS cloud. And so we've really geared it to be that most price performance of options for our customers. And that's what we like about the silicon team, that we're part of that Annaperna acquisition, is because it really has enabled us to have this differentiation and to not just be innovating at the software level but the entire stack. That Annaperna Labs team develops our network cards, they develop our ARM cards, they developed this Trainium chip. And so that silicon innovation has become a core part of our differentiator from other vendors. And what Trainium allows you to do is perform similar workloads, just at a lower price performance. >> And you also have a chip several years older, called Inferentia- >> Um-hmm. >> Which is for inferencing. What is the difference between, I mean, when would a customer use one versus the other? How would you move the workload? >> What we've seen is customers traditionally have looked for a certain class of machine, more of a compute type that is not as accelerated or as heavy as you would need for Trainium for their inference portion of their workload. So when they do that training they want the really beefy machines that can grind through a lot of data. But when you're doing the inference, it's a little lighter weight. And so it's a different class of machine. And so that's why we've got those two different product lines with the Inferentia being there to support those inference portions of their workflow and the Trainium to be that kind of heavy duty training work. >> And then you advise them on how to migrate their workloads from one to the other? And once the model is trained would they switch to an Inferentia-based instance? >> Definitely, definitely. We help them work through what does that design of that workflow look like? And some customers are very comfortable doing self-service and just kind of building it on their own. Other customers look for a more professional services engagement to say like, "Hey, can you come in and help me work "through how I might modify my workflow to "take full advantage of these resources?" >> The HPC world has been somewhat slower than commercial computing to migrate to the cloud because- >> You're very polite. (panelists all laughing) >> Latency issues, they want to control the workload, they want to, I mean there are even issues with moving large amounts of data back and forth. What do you say to them? I mean what's the argument for ditching the on-prem supercomputer and going all-in on AWS? >> Well, I mean, to be fair, I started at AWS five years ago. And I can tell you when I showed up at Supercomputing, even though I'd been part of this community for many years, they said, "What is AWS doing at Supercomputing?" I know you care, wait, it's Amazon Web Services. You care about the web, can you actually handle supercomputing workloads? Now the thing that very few people appreciated is that yes, we could. Even at that time in 2017, we had customers that were performing HPC workloads. Now that being said, there were some real limitations on what we could perform. And over those past five years, as we've grown as a company, we've started to really eliminate those frictions for customers to migrate their HPC workloads to the AWS cloud. When I started in 2017, we didn't have our elastic fabric adapter, our low-latency interconnect. So customers were stuck with standard TCP/IP. So for their highly demanding open MPI workloads, we just didn't have the latencies to support them. So the jobs didn't run as efficiently as they could. We didn't have Amazon FSx for Lustre, our managed lustre offering for high performant, POSIX-compliant file system, which is kind of the key to a large portion of HPC workloads is you have to have a high-performance file system. We didn't even, I mean, we had about 25 gigs of networking when I started. Now you look at, with our accelerated instances, we've got 400 gigs of networking. So we've really continued to grow across that spectrum and to eliminate a lot of those really, frictions to adoption. I mean, one of the key ones, we had a open source toolkit that was jointly developed by Intel and AWS called CFN Cluster that customers were using to even instantiate their clusters. So, and now we've migrated that all the way to a fully functional supported service at AWS called AWS Parallel Cluster. And so you've seen over those past five years we have had to develop, we've had to grow, we've had to earn the trust of these customers and say come run your workloads on us and we will demonstrate that we can meet your demanding requirements. And at the same time, there's been, I'd say, more of a cultural acceptance. People have gone away from the, again, five years ago, to what are you doing walking around the show, to say, "Okay, I'm not sure I get it. "I need to look at it. "I, okay, I, now, oh, it needs to be a part "of my architecture but the standard questions, "is it secure? "Is it price performant? "How does it compare to my on-prem?" And really culturally, a lot of it is, just getting IT administrators used to, we're not eliminating a whole field, right? We're just upskilling the people that used to rack and stack actual hardware, to now you're learning AWS services and how to operate within that environment. And it's still key to have those people that are really supporting these infrastructures. And so I'd say it's a little bit of a combination of cultural shift over the past five years, to see that cloud is a super important part of HPC workloads, and part of it's been us meeting the the market segment of where we needed to with innovating both at the hardware level and at the software level, which we're going to continue to do. >> You do have an on-prem story though. I mean, you have outposts. We don't hear a lot of talk about outposts lately, but these innovations, like Inferentia, like Trainium, like the networking innovation you're talking about, are these going to make their way into outposts as well? Will that essentially become this supercomputing solution for customers who want to stay on-prem? >> Well, we'll see what the future lies, but we believe that we've got the, as you noted, we've got the hardware, we've got the network, we've got the storage. All those put together gives you a a high-performance computer, right? And whether you want it to be redundant in your local data center or you want it to be accessible via APIs from the AWS cloud, we want to provide that service to you. >> So to be clear, that's not that's not available now, but that is something that could be made available? >> Outposts are available right now, that have this the services that you need. >> All these capabilities? >> Often a move to cloud, an impetus behind it comes from the highest levels in an organization. They're looking at the difference between OpEx versus CapEx. CapEx for a large HPC environment, can be very, very, very high. Are these HPC clusters consumed as an operational expense? Are you essentially renting time, and then a fundamental question, are these multi-tenant environments? Or when you're referring to batches being run in HPC, are these dedicated HPC environments for customers who are running batches against them? When you think about batches, you think of, there are times when batches are being run and there are times when they're not being run. So that would sort of conjure, in the imagination, multi-tenancy, what does that look like? >> Definitely, and that's been, let me start with your second part first is- >> Yeah. That's been a a core area within AWS is we do not see as, okay we're going to, we're going to carve out this super computer and then we're going to allocate that to you. We are going to dynamically allocate multi-tenant resources to you to perform the workloads you need. And especially with the batch environment, we're going to spin up containers on those, and then as the workloads complete we're going to turn those resources over to where they can be utilized by other customers. And so that's where the batch computing component really is powerful, because as you say, you're releasing resources from workloads that you're done with. I can use those for another portion of the workflow for other work. >> Okay, so it makes a huge difference, yeah. >> You mentioned, that five years ago, people couldn't quite believe that AWS was at this conference. Now you've got a booth right out in the center of the action. What kind of questions are you getting? What are people telling you? >> Well, I love being on the show floor. This is like my favorite part is talking to customers and hearing one, what do they love, what do they want more of? Two, what do they wish we were doing that we're not currently doing? And three, what are the friction points that are still exist that, like, how can I make their lives easier? And what we're hearing is, "Can you help me migrate my workloads to the cloud? "Can you give me the information that I need, "both from a price for performance, "for an operational support model, "and really help me be an internal advocate "within my environment to explain "how my resources can be operated proficiently "within the AWS cloud." And a lot of times it's, let's just take your application a subset of your applications and let's benchmark 'em. And really that, AWS, one of the key things is we are a data-driven environment. And so when you take that data and you can help a customer say like, "Let's just not look at hypothetical, "at synthetic benchmarks, let's take "actually the LS-DYNA code that you're running, perhaps. "Let's take the OpenFOAM code that you're running, "that you're running currently "in your on-premises workloads, "and let's run it on AWS cloud "and let's see how it performs." And then we can take that back to your to the decision makers and say, okay, here's the price for performance on AWS, here's what we're currently doing on-premises, how do we think about that? And then that also ties into your earlier question about CapEx versus OpEx. We have models where actual, you can capitalize a longer-term purchase at AWS. So it doesn't have to be, I mean, depending upon the accounting models you want to use, we do have a majority of customers that will stay with that OpEx model, and they like that flexibility of saying, "Okay, spend as you go." We need to have true ups, and make sure that they have insight into what they're doing. I think one of the boogeyman is that, oh, I'm going to spend all my money and I'm not going to know what's available. And so we want to provide the, the cost visibility, the cost controls, to where you feel like, as an HPC administrator you have insight into what your customers are doing and that you have control over that. And so once you kind of take away some of those fears and and give them the information that they need, what you start to see too is, you know what, we really didn't have a lot of those cost visibility and controls with our on-premises hardware. And we've had some customers tell us we had one portion of the workload where this work center was spending thousands of dollars a day. And we went back to them and said, "Hey, we started to show this, "what you were spending on-premises." They went, "Oh, I didn't realize that." And so I think that's part of a cultural thing that, at an HPC, the question was, well on-premises is free. How do you compete with free? And so we need to really change that culturally, to where people see there is no free lunch. You're paying for the resources whether it's on-premises or in the cloud. >> Data scientists don't worry about budgets. >> Wait, on-premises is free? Paul mentioned something that reminded me, you said you were here in 2017, people said AWS, web, what are you even doing here? Now in 2022, you're talking in terms of migrating to cloud. Paul mentioned outposts, let's say that a customer says, "Hey, I'd like you to put "in a thousand-node cluster in this data center "that I happen to own, but from my perspective, "I want to interact with it just like it's "in your data center." In other words, the location doesn't matter. My experience is identical to interacting with AWS in an AWS data center, in a CoLo that works with AWS, but instead it's my physical data center. When we're tracking the percentage of IT that's that is on-prem versus off-prem. What is that? Is that, what I just described, is that cloud? And in five years are you no longer going to be talking about migrating to cloud because people go, "What do you mean migrating to cloud? "What do you even talking about? "What difference does it make?" It's either something that AWS is offering or it's something that someone else is offering. Do you think we'll be at that point in five years, where in this world of virtualization and abstraction, you talked about Kubernetes, we should be there already, thinking in terms of it doesn't matter as long as it meets latency and sovereignty requirements. So that, your prediction, we're all about insights and supercomputing- >> My prediction- >> In five years, will you still be talking about migrating to cloud or will that be something from the past? >> In five years, I still think there will be a component. I think the majority of the assumption will be that things are cloud-native and you start in the cloud and that there are perhaps, an aspect of that, that will be interacting with some sort of an edge device or some sort of an on-premises device. And we hear more and more customers that are saying, "Okay, I can see the future, "I can see that I'm shrinking my footprint." And, you can see them still saying, "I'm not sure how small that beachhead will be, "but right now I want to at least say "that I'm going to operate in that hybrid environment." And so I'd say, again, the pace of this community, I'd say five years we're still going to be talking about migrations, but I'd say the vast majority will be a cloud-native, cloud-first environment. And how do you classify that? That outpost sitting in someone's data center? I'd say we'd still, at least I'll leave that up to the analysts, but I think it would probably come down as cloud spend. >> Great place to end. Ian, you and I now officially have a bet. In five years we're going to come back. My contention is, no we're not going to be talking about it anymore. >> Okay. >> And kids in college are going to be like, "What do you mean cloud, it's all IT, it's all IT." And they won't remember this whole phase of moving to cloud and back and forth. With that, join us in five years to see the result of this mega-bet between Ian and Dave. I'm Dave Nicholson with theCUBE, here at Supercomputing Conference 2022, day three of our coverage with my co-host Paul Gillin. Thanks again for joining us. Stay tuned, after this short break, we'll be back with more action. (lively music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCUBE live in Miami on the floor of IFS Unleashed. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Had some great conversations. Have more great conversations coming your way. I have two guests joining me. Please welcome Martin Schirmer, the President of Enterprise Service Management, IFS Assyst. And Parminder Khosa, the Senior IT Manager at Parexel. Guys, it's great to have you on the program. >> Lovely to be here. >> It's good to be here. >> Martin, talk to me a little bit... tell the audience a little bit about Assyst so that that get that context before we start asking questions. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So IFS Assyst is a recent acquisition. It's an acquisition we made about a year ago. And fundamentally, it's a platform that takes care of IT service management, enterprise service management and IT operations management. So think of it, of managing sort of the ERP for IT and then broadening that out into the sort of enterprise where you're driving enterprise use cases for all lines of businesses like HR, finance, facilities, so on and so forth. >> Got it. And then Parminder, give the audience just a little bit of a flavor of Parexel, who you guys are, what you do. >> Sure. >> Maybe the impact that you make. >> Yeah, so Parexel is a clinical research organization. And what that means is that we manage drug trials for big pharmaceutical companies. So we're a big company. We're 25,000 people. We have offices in 150 locations all the way from Japan and the east through to the West Coast of the USA. >> Big company. >> Yeah, we are. We are a lot of people. >> And let's start chatting now Martin with some of the questions that you have so we get the understanding of how IFS and Parexel are working together. >> Yeah. Absolutely. I suppose... I mean the first thing is and thank you for traveling here all the way from the UK. (Lisa chuckles) Appreciate it and great energy and vibe. So just what the first question I had really was, you're customer of ours for the last 15 years plus. Maybe just give the audience a bit of context into your journey and how you've evolved from the sort of early years to where you're going into the future. >> Sure. So our history, I was part of a company that Parexel acquired that was already using Assyst. And as Parexel acquired us, they were in the process of also buying Assyst. So it became a kind of natural fit where I carried on with Assyst. And we started relatively small, sort of just the service desktop. And throughout the ongoing 15 years or so, we've just grown and expanded into kind of being a critical tool for Parexel right now. >> Okay, that's fantastic. I mean part of that journey, I know you started in sort of the more they call a ticketing space or IT service management space. Expand a little bit how you've expanded out of that and really moved into the enterprise. >> Sure. So yeah. So when we first rolled Assyst out, it was as I say, purely IT. And eventually we reached out to other business units to say asking questions like, Are you managing your workload through email? Are you managing your workload through Excel spreadsheets? In which case, if you are, we've got a solution for you that will make it a much better experience for your customers. They're all internal. It'll make it much easier for you because you will have official tracking going on through our system. I'll make it better for your management because we can drive metrics from all of the data that we're getting. So if you imagine finance we're getting, kind of 200 miles a day because of the size of our company. And they were just working through them one by one responding, and they becomes just a mess. So we developed forms for them to say, "Okay, Larry raise all your requests here. We will pick it up. We will manage it. We will communicate with you. And once the piece of work that you've asked for is done, we will let you know." And as we go through that process, we'll make it better for us because as I say we're getting those metrics. And we'll make it better for you because we can spot where our gaps are. If a request is taking three days, and of that three days, two days is waiting for someone on our end to respond to you or is waiting for us waiting for a customer to respond, we can iron those out and make it a much better experience for everyone. >> That's fantastic. It's really music to my ears because we always pushing the industry to say move away from just the IT side and really get into the enterprise. And it sounds like you've really gotten a lot of sort of productivity and efficiency gains out of that. >> Definitely, definitely. And it becomes kind of a happy circle. So the finance guys will work with the procurement guys. And they also look... Well, we're doing all of our work through Assyst now. So procurement's a little turnaround. So, well we're using this big spreadsheet to manage all of ours. Can we do the same? And they'll reach out to us and we'll say, "Of course we can. What is your process?" For example, they will say, okay, if someone asks for a new laptop, we need to get the approval from their line manager, from the supplier. We need to do our own internal work and then we will send it out. So imagine if you're doing that in a an email chain. It just becomes chaos. >> Yeah. >> So we will build all of that out for them. And then procurement will talk to HR and it just becomes a snowball. And before you know it, we are doing about 4,000 tickets per day in our Assyst system. And of those, 50% perhaps maybe more than 50% now will be non IT related. >> Oh, that's fantastic. Really music to my ears. And it really breaking down the boundaries or silos within an organization. It's really good. Let the teams work together. Right? >> Definitely. And that's one of the key things that we've learned is that we have to engage completely with our business partners. And our business partners are becoming more and more IT literate as well. So for example, we had a recent big HR solution provided to us. And as part of that, we know there are going to be questions, and queries and perhaps even issues to do with our HR system. So we have to work with us guys, the Assyst front end, the IT HR guys who look after the databases, all of the technology in the background. Then there'll be IT HR who are Workday experts. And then kind of not necessarily at the bottom of the chain will be the HR people themselves who are in their own way, experts in their area, experts in IT in a certain way. So all of those people have to work together. We become the front end, but we have to work with all of those parts of the business. >> That's really great. It's basically what you just said is taking business, IT processes and underpinning solutions. Effectively digital transformation, right? >> Exactly. Yeah. So HR is a great example. They used to have paper flying around with leave request, with sickness requests, with all of those kind of issues. And you said, well if you have an issue with your HR system, you can't raise a leave request, or you can't raise a sickness request, tell us. We will take care of it. We will fix it for you. We will give you the instructions. And we will get rid of all of that paper. >> That's brilliant. Just sort of turning the attention. And all of that, how do you drive the sort of, we'll talk about the autonomous enterprise. How do you drive automation in that process? >> Yeah. Of course, we have to map all of those processes out. Because we're not the experts in HR or procurement or whatever the business area may be. We have to really dig into their work methods, their working areas. What is necessary for them? What is a must have? What is a like to have? What is we don't really need? So we really drive into that processes. Once we've got those, we will automate them. We will build them out in Assyst with the process designer. It's very intuitive now. The latest version is really good to work with. We will do some pretty clever stuff in there. We'll say, okay the manager approval. If the manager is not there, then escalate it to the next person. Then we go to HR and say, okay HR have taken two days to do this. We're not particularly okay with that. So we will escalate it to the next person. And all of that process is completely automated, completely in Assyst. >> Brilliant. I mean obviously, we have a codeless workflow engine with a designer. And if you look at one of the trends from post covid is a war in talent in particular developers. The IDC says there's going to be around 4 million shortage of developers. What is your view on, how easy... Do I need developers? Is it easy, is it difficult to do these workflow extensions and automations? >> Definitely not, no. So the two key areas that you mentioned that with the customizer to develop the forms to make them available to our end users, drag and drop. Really easy to do. You can put some nice filters in there. You can put some nice variables in there. You can drive intelligent drive the forms from there as well. So if option A is correct, then don't show me option B, show me option C. And all of that is codeless, entirely codeless. I don't need to type any code. And when we move on to a process designer that hooks in nicely with the form customizer because we can say, "Okay, if option B on that form is selected, then runs this process." And all of that process is entirely codeless as well. Drag and drop. Creates some tasks. Create some decisions. >> Fantastic. >> Brilliant. >> Sounds really good. Switching gears a little bit. You spoke about experience, and that's also obviously very topical post, well, Covid becoming a remote workforce. Clearly, we need to be digitally connected to our business and organization because the hybrid workforce, as we all know, is here to stay. And that employee experience is fundamental because it is their sort of channel to the engagement of the organization. Of course, that has retention impacts and productivity impact. So just from your perspective, how was Covid, from your perspective, and how easy or difficult was it to get your employees engaged and productive and working? >> Yeah. And for us, it's a double edged sword Covid was. Because of the nature of our business. We do covid stuff. We do drug stuff. So we may have issues with some trials that are related to that. So we need to escalate those. We need to be aware of them and move them to the top of the chain as soon as possible. And then Assyst becomes a source of truth. Everybody knows that if I've got an issue with the current environment that we're living in, I can raise it in Assyst. And everybody knows that's where that information is. There's no need to have huge conference calls or huge email chains to try and follow those around. So with our Assyst platform, with our employees as well, everybody knew that this is where the source of truth was. We didn't have any dropouts. We didn't have any concerns with our system or performance. We knew it was there. We had to do some work like, as I say, around covid issues just to make sure they get pushed up to the top of the chain. But otherwise, we were fine. And great credit to our IT operations team as well who managed that pretty much seamlessly. >> That's brilliant. That's good news. >> Yeah. >> It really is. Just taking a little bit further and talking a little bit about what next. My team has been, I know, talking to your team about the whole area of asset management. Maybe talk to us a little bit about that journey. >> Sure, sure. So we're an ITOM customer as well. So all of our hardware data is stored within the ITOM platform. So we've pushed out the agents to all of our end user machines, so 25,000 agents. And we're in the process of integrating that into our Assyst platform to make that the single source of truth. And that part of that we're working on the software asset management side as well. So we've got a really good idea of where our software assets are. It comes to all license auditing, we know exactly how much we've got there. And the more complex side of it is of course server. So software management management as well. So we're in the process of getting all of that data as well. So once we've done all that, there is other all as the next step. The next step will be to perhaps do monitoring or pushing out software using the ITOM platform and getting rid of some of the disparate systems that we have right now. >> Well that's good news. And I think I saw a study. I think, every single person as an employee carries around 15 or 20 assets with him at any one time. Be it from a PC, phone, physical software licenses, so on and so forth. In that context, I can imagine the business case around it. >> Definitely. Yeah. And every, again, we map every user to their assets and (indistinct) their assets. And again Assyst as a source of truth for that. So if you want to look at my record, so, all right. Pam's got a laptop. He's got a mobile phone. We're thinking about giving him a tablet, but we'll find out. That he's in the process of getting a tablet as well. So I can have a look at my user record and know exactly what I've got with all of the asset tags and the various links that it has to the software pieces so it becomes a big tree of my assets. >> That's wonderful. Just the question I had was, we spoke about breaking down silos and the enterprise use cases and the effect that has. Do you envisage that Assyst can really get to being enterprisewide as, when I say enterprisewide, everybody in the organization effectively using this tool as their sort of source of experience, and level of automation of process? >> Definitely, definitely. As I say, we're getting... We're really pushing to get to that. As I say, 4,000 tickets a day with a user base of 25,000 kind of means that everybody will interact with the system perhaps every two weeks or so. So we're getting to that point and with the new functionality that's coming out with the Assyst product, with the team's integration, and the bot and everything that will bring to us because we are a big. We use teams. We use bots. We use that kind of technology. It will just fit in seamlessly. And trying to break down the silos, as I say finance, procurement, all of the big beasts within our company already are using the Assyst tool. And we want to bring in more and more of those processes as we mature. >> Brilliant. I think Omnichannel's critical. We want to connect from any device from anywhere. It's just the way we work. So I think that's critical. Teams is of course a a tool that most of us have become too familiar with. >> Yup. (chuckles) >> To be fair. (chuckles) It's better to be here in person finally, right? >> Yeah. >> So I think, that's all exciting news. And it's really fantastic. >> Great. >> So I suppose maybe in the time that we have left, what's next? >> What's next for us is that we're in the process of migrating our solution to the cloud, to the IFS cloud. That will open up a huge new user base for us. If we think all of our customers, all of our people who work on studies will have the ability to connect to Assyst and ask questions. That's a lot of it is just ask a question, or raise an issue or ask for something. So we're talking, it could be expanded by hundreds of thousands of new users that will meet more people on the backend to manage those requests as well. So yeah. It's just going to get bigger and bigger. And as you say, with the CMDB work that we're doing as well, that's another big ongoing stream for us. >> It's great because as you know, with Assyst we have a disruptive licensing model. >> Yeah. >> We have a t-shirt size pricing. All you can need based a number of employees. So there's no barriers to entry for you. >> There really is. And that really helps us because as I said initially, particularly when finance came on board and now they're expanding, there is no cost implication for it. The more that we use it, the better it is for. The more bang for buck that we get. >> Yep. That's our mantra. Enterprise users, right? For the price of a cup of coffee, for the price of a user. That's our mantra. >> I love it. You guys have done such a great job of articulating the synergies in the relationship that IFS Assyst has with Paraxel. You talked about the great outcomes that you're achieving. And it's all about Martin, I know, from IFS Assyst perspective, it's all about helping customers achieve those outcomes and those moments of service that are so critical to your customers on the other end staying with you, doing more business. Whether it's the end user customer, whether it's the actual employee. You talked a lot about the customer experience, the employee experience, and what you guys are doing together to enable that. And I always think that the employee experience and the customer experience are like this. They're inextricably linked. You can't, you shouldn't. Otherwise you're going to have problems. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. And there's actually a study on that saying that, 70% of customers generally don't feel they get what they want from organizations. >> 70. Wow! >> And if you take that one step further to what you said, the interconnectivity between customer employee, employee shops on Amazon, right? It's on those websites. So you can't be rolling out and digitally connect to the employee with something that is clunky and has the wrong experience. Like I said, it really affects that level of engagement the employee has with the company which happens to be largely these days remote. >> It does. Last question Martin, is for you. Talk to us about what's next for IFS Assyst. Obviously, we're back in person. There's a lot of momentum about the company. I was talking with Darren, the growth and first half was great. He kind of gave us some teaser about second half, but what's next from your perspective? >> Yeah. So what's next for us is achieving our goal. We are here to disrupt the industry. It's an industry that's dominated by one player and a fair amount of legacy players. We've disrupted the business model as I've told you. We here to do more because it's a simple thing. And that's the word simple. We want to keep things simple. We're going to keep engineering and driving our product forward, right? We've made sure that our platform is up there with the best. Yeah. We've just been certified by pink. Pink is a verification of ITIL four they call it. So it's a body. And the top level is you can get 20 out of 20. We got 17 out of 20. There's only one other vendor that has more than us and it's only by little. And after it's a big white space, the next one is 14. So we on the right track. We are going to of course drive and capture the market. So watch this space. We here to grow. >> We will watch this space. Congratulations on being that disrupter. >> Thank you. >> Parminder great work with what you guys are doing. You did a great job of articulating, as I said, the customers tour here. We appreciate your insights, your time. >> Thank you very much. >> Pleasure. >> All right, my pleasure. >> Thank you. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube live from Miami on the show floor of IFS Unleashed. We'll be back after a short break.

>>The Cube Presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path, >>Everybody. We're back in Las Vegas. The cube's coverage we're day one at UI Path forward. Five. Pascal Borne is here. He's an expert and bestselling author in the topic of AI and automation and the book Intelligent Automation. Welcome to the world of Hyper Automation, the first book on the topic. And of course, Ray Wong is back on the cube. He's the founder, chairman and principal analyst, Constellation Reese, also bestselling author of Everybody Wants To Rule the World. Guys, thanks so much for coming on The Cubes. Always a pleasure. Ray Pascal, First time on the Cube, I believe. >>Yes, thank you. Thanks for the invitation. Thank you. >>So what is artificial about artificial intelligence, >>For sure, not people. >>So, okay, so you guys are both speaking at the conference, Ray today. I think you're interviewing the co CEOs. What do you make of that? What's, what are you gonna, what are you gonna probe with these guys? Like, how they're gonna divide their divide and conquer, and why do you think the, the company Danielle in particular, decided to bring in Rob Sland? >>Well, you know what I mean, Like, you know, these companies are now at a different stage of growth, right? There's that early battle between RPA vendors. Now we're actually talking something different, right? We're talking about where does automation go? How do we get the decisioning? What's the next best action? That's gonna be the next step. And to take where UI path is today to somewhere else, You really want someone with that enterprise cred and experience the sales motions, the packages, the partnership capabilities, and who else better than Roblin? He, that's, he's done, he can do that in his sleep, but now he's gotta do that in a new space, taking whole category to another level. Now, Daniel on the other hand, right, I mean, he's the visionary founder. He put this thing from nothing to where he is today, right? I mean, at that point you want your founder thinking about the next set of ideas, right? So you get this interesting dynamic that we've seen for a while with co CEOs, those that are doing the operations, getting the stuff out the door, and then letting the founders get a chance to go back and rethink, take a look at the perspective, and hopefully get a chance to build the next idea or take the next idea back into the organization. >>Right? Very well said. Pascal, why did you write your book on intelligent automation and, and hyper automation, and what's changed since you've written that book? >>So, I, I wrote this book, An Intelligent Automation, two years ago. At that time, it was really a new topic. It was really about the key, the, the key, the key content of the, of the book is really about combining different technologies to automate the most complex end to end business processes in companies. And when I say capabilities, it's, we, we hear a lot about up here, especially here, robotic process automation. But up here alone, if you just trying to transform a company with only up here, you just fall short. Okay? A lot of those processes need more than execution. They need language, they need the capacity to view, to see, they need the capacity to understand and to, and to create insights. So by combining process automation with ai, natural language processing, computer vision, you give this capability to create impact by automating end to end processes in companies. >>I, I like the test, what I hear in the keynote with independent experts like yourself. So we're hearing that that intelligent automation or automation is a fundamental component of digital transformation. Is it? Or is it more sort of a back office sort of hidden in inside plumbing Ray? What do you think? >>Well, you start by understanding what's going on in the process phase. And that's where you see discover become very important in that keynote, right? And that's where process mining's playing a role. Then you gotta automate stuff. But when you get to operations, that's really where the change is going to happen, right? We actually think that, you know, when you're doing the digital transformation pieces, right? Analytics, automation and AI are coming together to create a concept we call decision velocity. You and I make a quick decision, boom, how long does it take to get out? Management committee could free forever, right? A week, two months, never. But if you're thinking about competing with the automation, right? These decisions are actually being done a hundred times per second by machine, even a thousand times per second. That asymmetry is really what people are facing at the moment. >>And the companies that are gonna be able to do that and start automating decisions are gonna be operating at another level. Back to what Pascal's book talking about, right? And there are four questions everyone has to ask you, like, when do you fully intelligently automate? And that happens right in the background when you augment the machine with a human. So we can find why did you make an exception? Why did you break a roll? Why didn't you follow this protocol so we can get it down to a higher level confidence? When do you augment the human with the machine so we can give you the information so you can act quickly. And the last one is, when do you wanna insert a human in the process? That's gonna be the biggest question. Order to cash, incident or resolution, Hire to retire, procure to pay. It doesn't matter. When do you want to put a human in the process? When do you want a man in the middle, person in the middle? And more importantly, when do you want insert friction? >>So Pascal, you wrote your book in the middle of the, the pandemic. Yes. And, and so, you know, pre pandemic digital transformation was kind of a buzzword. A lot of people gave it lip service, eh, not on my watch, I don't have to worry about that. But then it became sort of, you're not a digital business, you're out of business. So, so what have you seen as the catalyst for adoption of automation? Was it the, the pandemic? Was it sort of good runway before that? What's changed? You know, pre isolation, post isolation economy. >>You, you make me think about a joke. Who, who did your best digital transformation over the last years? The ceo, C H R O, the Covid. >>It's a big record ball, right? Yeah. >>Right. And that's exactly true. You know, before pandemic digital transformation was a competitive advantage. >>Companies that went into it had an opportunity to get a bit better than their, their competitors during the pandemic. Things have changed completely. Companies that were not digitalized and automated could not survive. And we've seen so many companies just burning out and, and, and those companies that have been able to capitalize on intelligent automation, digital transformations during the pandemic have been able not only to survive, but to, to thrive, to really create their place on the market. So that's, that has been a catalyst, definitely a catalyst for that. That explains the success of the book, basically. Yeah. >>Okay. Okay. >>So you're familiar with the concept of Stew the food, right? So Stew by definition is something that's delicious to eat. Stew isn't simply taking one of every ingredient from the pantry and throwing it in the pot and stirring it around. When we start talking about intelligent automation, artificial intelligence, augmented intelligence, it starts getting a bit overwhelming. My spy sense goes off and I start thinking, this sounds like mush. It doesn't sound like Stew. So I wanna hear from each of you, what is the methodical process that, that people need to go through when they're going through digital trans transmission, digital transformation, so that you get delicious stew instead of a mush that's just confused everything in your business. So you, Ray, you want, you want to, you wanna answer that first? >>Yeah. You know, I mean, we've been talking about digital transformation since 2010, right? And part of it was really getting the business model, right? What are you trying to achieve? Is that a new type of offering? Are you changing the way you monetize something? Are you taking existing process and applying it to a new set of technologies? And what do you wanna accomplish, right? Once you start there, then it becomes a whole lot of operational stuff. And it's more than st right? I mean, it, it could be like, well, I can't use those words there. But the point being is it could be a complete like, operational exercise. It could be a complete revenue exercise, it could be a regulatory exercise, it could be something about where you want to take growth into the next level. And each one of those processes, some of it is automation, right? There's a big component of it today. But most of it is really rethinking about what you want things to do, right? How do you actually make things to be successful, right? Do I reorganize a process? Do I insert a place to do monetization? Where do I put engagement in place? How do I collect data along the way so I can build better feedback loop? What can I do to build the business graph so that I have that knowledge for the future so I can go forward doing that so I can be successful. >>The Pascal should, should, should the directive be first ia, then ai? Or are these, are these things going to happen in parallel naturally? What's your position on that? Is it first, >>So it, so, >>So AI is part of IA because that's, it's, it's part of the big umbrella. And very often I got the question. So how do you differentiate AI in, I a, I like to say that AI is only the brain. So think of ai cuz I'm consider, I consider AI as machine learning, Okay? Think of AI in a, like a brain near jar that only can think, create, insight, learn, but doesn't do anything, doesn't have any arms, doesn't have any eyes, doesn't not have any mouth and ears can't talk, can't understand with ia, you, you give those capabilities to ai. You, you basically, you create a cap, the capability, technological capability that is able to do more than just thinking, learning and, and create insight, but also acting, speaking, understanding the environment, viewing it, interacting with it. So basically performing these, those end to end processes that are performed currently by people in companies. >>Yeah, we're gonna get to a point where we get to what we call a dynamic scenario generation. You're talking to me, you get excited, well, I changed the story because something else shows up, or you're talking to me and you're really upset. We're gonna have to actually ch, you know, address that issue right away. Well, we want the ability to have that sense and respond capability so that the next best action is served. So your data, your process, the journey, all the analytics on the top end, that's all gonna be served up and changed along the way. As we go from 2D journeys to 3D scenarios in the metaverse, if we think about what happens from a decentralized world to decentralized, and we think about what's happening from web two to web three, we're gonna make those types of shifts so that things are moving along. Everything's a choose your end venture journey. >>So I hope I remember this correctly from your book. You talked about disruption scenarios within industries and within companies. And I go back to the early days of, of our industry and East coast Prime, Wang, dg, they're all gone. And then, but, but you look at companies like Microsoft, you know, they were, they were able to, you know, get through that novel. Yeah. Ibm, you know, I call it survived. Intel is now going through their, you know, their challenge. So, so maybe it's inevitable, but how do you see the future in terms of disruption with an industry, Forget our industry for a second, all industry across, whether it's healthcare, financial services, manufacturing, automobiles, et cetera. How do you see the disruption scenario? I'm pretty sure you talked about this in your book, it's been a while since I read it, but I wonder if you could talk about that disruption scenario and, and the role that automation is going to play, either as the disruptor or as the protector of the incumbents. >>Let's take healthcare and auto as an example. Healthcare is a great example. If we think about what's going on, not enough nurses, massive shortage, right? What are we doing at the moment? We're setting five foot nine robots to do non-patient care. We're trying to capture enough information off, you know, patient analytics like this watch is gonna capture vitals from a going forward. We're doing a lot what we can do in the ambient level so that information and data is automatically captured and decisions are being rendered against that. Maybe you're gonna change your diet along the way, maybe you're gonna walk an extra 10 minutes. All those things are gonna be provided in that level of automation. Take the car business. It's not about selling cars. Tesla's a great example. We talk about this all the time. What Tesla's doing, they're basically gonna be an insurance company with all the data they have. They have better data than the insurance companies. They can do better underwriting, they've got better mapping information and insights they can actually suggest next best action do collision avoidance, right? Those are all the things that are actually happening today. And automation plays a big role, not just in the collection of that, that information insight, but also in the ability to make recommendations, to do predictions and to help you prevent things from going wrong. >>So, you know, it's interesting. It's like you talk about Tesla as the, the disrupting the insurance companies. It's almost like the over the top vendors have all the data relative to the telcos and mopped them up for lunch. Pascal, I wanna ask you, you know, the topic of future of work kind of was a bromide before, but, but now I feel like, you know, post pandemic, it, it actually has substance. How do you see the future of work? Can you even summarize what it's gonna look like? It's, it's, Or are we here? >>It's, yeah, it's, and definitely it's, it's more and more important topic currently. And you, you all heard about the great resignation and how employee experience is more and more important for companies according to have a business review. The companies that take care of their employee experience are four times more profitable that those that don't. So it's a, it's a, it's an issue for CEOs and, and shareholders. Now, how do we get there? How, how do we, how do we improve the, the quality of the employee experience, understanding the people, getting information from them, educating them. I'm talking about educating them on those new technologies and how they can benefit from those empowering them. And, and I think we've talked a lot about this, about the democratization local type of, of technologies that democratize the access to those technologies. Everyone can be empowered today to change their work, improve their work, and finally, incentivization. I think it's a very important point where companies that, yeah, I >>Give that. What's gonna be the key message of your talk tomorrow. Give us the bumper sticker, >>If you will. Oh, I'm gonna talk, It's a little bit different. I'm gonna talk for the IT community in this, in the context of the IT summit. And I'm gonna talk about the future of intelligent automation. So basically how new technologies will impact beyond what we see today, The future of work. >>Well, I always love having you on the cube, so articulate and, and and crisp. What's, what's exciting you these days, you know, in your world, I know you're traveling around a lot, but what's, what's hot? >>Yeah, I think one of the coolest thing that's going on right now is the fact that we're trying to figure out do we go to work or do we not go to work? Back to your other point, I mean, I don't know, work, work is, I mean, for me, work has been everywhere, right? And we're starting to figure out what that means. I think the second thing though is this notion around mission and purpose. And everyone's trying to figure out what does that mean for themselves? And that's really, I don't know if it's a great, great resignation. We call it great refactoring, right? Where you work, when you work, how we work, why you work, that's changing. But more importantly, the business models are changing. The monetization models are changing macro dynamics that are happening. Us versus China, G seven versus bricks, right? War on the dollar. All these things are happening around us at this moment and, and I think it's gonna really reshape us the way that we came out of the seventies into the eighties. >>Guys, always a pleasure having folks like yourself on, Thank you, Pascal. Been great to see you again. All right, Dave Nicholson, Dave Ante, keep it right there. Forward five from Las Vegas. You're watching the cue.

(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone. theCube's live coverage here. Day two, of two sets, three days of theCube coverage here at VMware Explore. This is our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference, formerly called VM World. I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. We'd love seeing the progress and we've got great security comes Tom Gill, senior vices, president general manager, networking and advanced security business group at VMware. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks. for having me. >> Yeah, really happy we could have you on. >> I think this is my sixth edition on the theCube. Do I get frequent flyer points or anything? >> Yeah. >> You first get the VIP badge. We'll make that happen. You can start getting credits. >> Okay, there we go. >> We won't interrupt you. Seriously, you got a great story in security here. The security story is kind of embedded everywhere, so it's not called out and blown up and talked specifically about on stage. It's kind of in all the narratives in the VM World for this year. But you guys have an amazing security story. So let's just step back and to set context. Tell us the security story for what's going on here at VMware and what that means to this supercloud, multi-cloud and ongoing innovation with VMware. >> Yeah, sure thing. So probably the first thing I'll point out is that security's not just built in at VMware. It's built differently. So, we're not just taking existing security controls and cut and pasting them into our software. But we can do things because of our platform, because of the virtualization layer that you really can't do with other security tools. And where we're very, very focused is what we call lateral security or East-West movement of an attacker. 'Cause frankly, that's the name of the game these days. Attackers, you've got to assume that they're already in your network. Already assume that they're there. Then how do we make it hard for them to get to the stuff that you really want? Which is the data that they're going after. And that's where we really should. >> All right. So we've been talking a lot, coming into VMware Explore, and here, the event. About two things. Security, as a state. >> Yeah. >> I'm secure right now. >> Yeah. >> Or I think I'm secure right now, even though someone might be in my network or in my environment. To the notion of being defensible. >> Yeah. >> Meaning I have to defend and be ready at a moment's notice to attack, fight, push back, red team, blue team. Whatever you're going to call it. But something's happening. I got to be able to defend. >> Yeah. So what you're talking about is the principle of Zero Trust. When I first started doing security, the model was we have a perimeter. And everything on one side of the perimeter is dirty, ugly, old internet. And everything on this side, known good, trusted. What could possibly go wrong. And I think we've seen that no matter how good you make that perimeter, bad guys find a way in. So Zero Trust says, you know what? Let's just assume they're already in. Let's assume they're there. How do we make it hard for them to move around within the infrastructure and get to the really valuable assets? 'Cause for example, if they bust into your laptop, you click on a link and they get code running on your machine. They might find some interesting things on your machine. But they're not going to find 250 million credit cards. >> Right. >> Or the script of a new movie or the super secret aircraft plans. That lives in a database somewhere. And so it's that movement from your laptop to that database. That's where the damage is done and that's where VMware shines. >> So if they don't have the right to get to that database, they're not in. >> And it's not even just the right. So they're so clever and so sneaky that they'll steal a credential off your machine, go to another machine, steal a credential off of that. So, it's like they have the key to unlock each one of these doors. And we've gotten good enough where we can look at that lateral movement, even though it has a credential and a key, we're like wait a minute. That's not a real CIS Admin making a change. That's ransomware. And that's where you. >> You have to earn your way in. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah. >> And we're all kinds of configuration errors. But also some user problems. I've heard one story where there's so many passwords and username and passwords and systems that the bad guys scour, the dark web for passwords that have been exposed. >> Correct. >> And go test them against different accounts. Oh one hit over here. >> Correct. >> And people don't change their passwords all the time. >> Correct. >> That's a known vector. >> Just the idea that users are going to be perfect and never make a mistake. How long have we been doing this? Humans are the weakest link. So people are going to make mistakes. Attackers are going to be in. Here's another way of thinking about it. Remember log4j? Remember that whole fiasco? Remember that was at Christmas time. That was nine months ago. And whoever came up with that vulnerability, they basically had a skeleton key that could access every network on the planet. I don't know if a single customer that said, "Oh yeah, I wasn't impacted by log4j." So here's some organized entity had access to every network on the planet. What was the big breach? What was that movie script that got stolen? So there wasn't one, right? We haven't heard anything. So the point is, the goal of attackers is to get in and stay in. Imagine someone breaks into your house, steals your laptop and runs. That's a breach. Imagine someone breaks into your house and stays for nine months. It's untenable, in the real world, right? >> Right. >> We don't know in there, hiding in the closet. >> They're still in. >> They're watching everything. >> Hiding in your closet, exactly. >> Moving around, nibbling on your cookies. >> Drinking your beer. >> Yeah. >> So let's talk about how this translates into the new reality of cloud-native. Because now you hear about automated pentesting is a new hot thing right now. You got antivirus on data is hot within APIs, for instance. >> Yeah. >> API security. So all kinds of new hot areas. Cloud-native is very iterative. You know, you can't do a pentest every week. >> Right. >> You got to do it every second. >> So this is where it's going. It's not so much simulation. It's actually real testing. >> Right. Right. >> How do you view that? How does that fit into this? 'cause that seems like a good direction to me. >> Yeah. If it's right in, and you were talking to my buddy, Ahjay, earlier about what VMware can do to help our customers build cloud native applications with Tanzu. My team is focused on how do we secure those applications? So where VMware wants to be the best in the world is securing these applications from within. Looking at the individual piece parts and how they talk to each other and figuring out, wait a minute, that should never happen. By almost having an x-ray machine on the innards of the application. So we do it for both for VMs and for container based applications. So traditional apps are VM based. Modern apps are container based. And we have a slightly different insertion mechanism. It's the same idea. So for VMs, we do it with a hypervisor with NSX. We see all the inner workings. In a container world we have this thing called a service mesh that lets us look at each little snippet of code and how they talk to each other. And once you can see that stuff, then you can actually apply. It's almost like common sense logic of like, wait a minute. This API is giving back credit card numbers and it gives five an hour. All of a sudden, it's now asking for 20,000 or a million credit cards. That doesn't make any sense. The anomalies stick out like a sore thumb. If you can see them. At VMware, our unique focus in the infrastructure is that we can see each one of these little transactions and understand the conversation. That's what makes us so good at that East-West or lateral security. >> You don't belong in this room, get out or that that's some weird call from an in memory database, something over here. >> Exactly. Where other security solutions won't even see that. It's not like there algorithms aren't as good as ours or better or worse. It's the access to the data. We see the inner plumbing of the app and therefore we can protect the app from. >> And there's another dimension that I want to get in the table here. 'Cause to my knowledge only AWS, Google, I believe Microsoft and Alibaba and VMware have this. >> Correct >> It's Nitro. The equivalent of a Nitro. >> Yes. >> Project Monterey. >> Yeah. >> That's unique. It's the future of computing architectures. Everybody needs a Nitro. I've written about this. >> Yeah. >> Right. So explain your version. >> Yeah. >> It's now real. >> Yeah. >> It's now in the market, right? >> Yeah. >> Or soon will be. >> Here's our mission. >> Salient aspects. >> Yeah. Here's our mission of VMware. Is that we want to make every one of our enterprise customers. We want their private cloud to be as nimble, as agile, as efficient as the public cloud. >> And secure. >> And secure. In fact, I'll argue, we can make it actually more secure because we're thinking about putting security everywhere in this infrastructure. Not just on the edges of it. Okay. How do we go on that journey? As you pointed out, the public cloud providers realized five years ago that the right way to build computers was not just a CPU and a graphics process unit, GPU. But there's this third thing that the industry's calling a DPU, data processing unit. And so there's kind of three pieces of a computer. And the DPU is sometimes called a Smartnic. It's the network interface card. It does all that network handling and analytics and it takes it off the CPU. So they've been building and deploying those systems themselves. That's what Nitro is. And so we have been working with the major Silicon vendors to bring that architecture to everybody. So with vSphere 8, we have the ability to take the network processing, that East-West inspection I talked about, take it off of the CPU and put it into this dedicated processing element called the DPU and free up the CPU to run the applications that Ahjay and team are building. >> So no performance degradation at all? >> Correct. To CPU offload. >> So even the opposite, right? I mean you're running it basically Bare Metal speeds. >> Yes, yes and yes. >> And you're also isolating the storage from the security, the management, and. >> There's an isolation angle to this, which is that firewall, that we're putting everywhere. Not just that the perimeter, but we put it in each little piece of the server is running when it runs on one of these DPUs it's a different memory space. So even if an attacker gets to root in the OS, they it's very, very, never say never, but it's very difficult. >> So who has access to that resource? >> Pretty much just the infrastructure layer, the cloud provider. So it's Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and the enterprise. >> Application can't get in. >> Can't get in there. Cause you would've to literally bridge from one memory space to another. Never say never, but it would be very. >> But it hasn't earned the trust to get. >> It's more than barbwire. It's multiple walls. >> Yes. And it's like an air gap. It puts an air gap in the server itself so that if the server is compromised, it's not going to get into the network. Really powerful. >> What's the big thing that you're seeing with this supercloud transition. We're seeing multi-cloud and this new, not just SaaS hosted on the cloud. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing a much different dynamic of, combination of large scale CapEx, cloud-native, and then now cloud-native drills on premises and edge. Kind of changing what a cloud looks like if the cloud's on a cloud. >> Yeah. >> So we're the customer, I'm building on a cloud and I have on premise stuff. So, I'm getting scale CapEx relief from the hyperscalers. >> I think there's an important nuance on what you're talking about. Which is in the early days of the cloud customers. Remember those first skepticism? Oh, it'll never work. Oh, that's consumer grade. Oh, that's not really going to work. Oh some people realize. >> It's not secure. >> Yeah. It's not secure. >> That one's like, no, no, no it's secure. It works. And it's good. So then there was this sort of over rush. Let's put everything on the cloud. And I had a lot of customers that took VM based applications said, I'm going to move those onto the cloud. You got to take them all apart, put them on the cloud and put them all back together again. And little tiny details like changing an IP address. It's actually much harder than it looks. So my argument is, for existing workloads for VM based workloads, we are VMware. We're so good at running VM based workloads. And now we run them on anybody's cloud. So whether it's your east coast data center, your west coast data center, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, IBM keep going. We pretty much every. >> And the benefit of the customer is what. >> You can literally VMotion and just pick it up and move it from private to public, public to private, private to public, Back and forth. >> Remember when we called Vmotion BS, years ago? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> VMotion is powerful. >> We were very skeptical. We're like, that'll never happen. I mean we were. This supposed to be pat ourselves on the back. >> Well because alchemy. It seems like what you can't possibly do that. And now we do it across clouds. So it's not quite VMotion, but it's the same idea. You can just move these things over. I have one customer that had a production data center in the Ukraine. Things got super tense, super fast and they had to go from their private cloud data center in the Ukraine, to a public cloud data center out of harm's way. They did it over a weekend. 48 hours. If you've ever migrated a data center, that's usually six months. Right. And a lot of heartburn and a lot of angst. Boop. They just drag and dropped and moved it on over. That's the power of what we call the cloud operating model. And you can only do this when all your infrastructures defined in software. If you're relying on hardware, load balancers, hardware, firewalls, you can't move those. They're like a boat anchor. You're stuck with them. And by the way, they're really, really expensive. And by the way, they eat a lot of power. So that was an architecture from the 90's. In the cloud operating model your data center. And this comes back to what you were talking about is just racks and racks of X86 with these magic DPUs, or smart nics, to make any individual node go blisteringly fast and do all the functions that you used to do in network appliances. >> We just had Ahjay taking us to school, and everyone else to school on applications, middleware, abstraction layer. And Kit Culbert was also talking about this across cloud. We're talking supercloud, super pass. If this continues to happen, which we would think it will happen. What does the security posture look like? It feels to me, and again, this is your wheelhouse. If supercloud happens with this kind of past layer where there's vMotioning going on. All kinds of spanning applications and data across environments. >> Yeah. Assume there's an operating system working on behind the scenes. >> Right. >> What's the security posture in all this? >> Yeah. So remember my narrative about the bad guys are getting in and they're moving around and they're so sneaky that they're using legitimate pathways. The only way to stop that stuff, is you've got to understand it at what we call Layer 7. At the application layer. Trying to do security to the infrastructure layer. It was interesting 20 years ago, kind of less interesting 10 years ago. And now it's becoming irrelevant because the infrastructure is oftentimes not even visible. It's buried in some cloud provider. So Layer 7 understanding, application awareness, understanding the APIs and reading the content. That's the name of the game in security. That's what we've been focused on. Nothing to do with the infrastructure. >> And where's the progress bar on that paradigm. One to ten. Ten being everyone's doing it. >> Right now. Well, okay. So we as a vendor can do this today. All the stuff I talked about, reading APIs, understanding the individual services looking at, Hey, wait a minute this credit card anomalies, that's all shipping production code. Where is it in customer adoption life cycle? Early days 10%. So there's a whole lot of headroom for people to understand, Hey, I can put these controls in place. They're software based. They don't require appliances. It's Layer 7, so it has contextual awareness and it's works on every single cloud. >> We talked about the pandemic being an accelerator. It really was a catalyst to really rethink. Remember we used to talk about Pat as a security do over. He's like, yes, if it's the last thing I do, I'm going to fix security. Well, he decided to go try to fix Intel instead. >> He's getting some help from the government. >> But it seems like CISOs have totally rethought their security strategy. And at least in part, as a function of the pandemic. >> When I started at VMware four years ago, Pat sat me down in his office and he said to me what he said to you, which is like, "Tom," he said, "I feel like we have fundamentally changed servers. We fundamentally change storage. We fundamentally change networking. The last piece of the puzzle of security. I want you to go fundamentally change it." And I'll argue that the work that we're doing with this horizontal security, understanding the lateral movement. East- West inspection. It fundamentally changes how security works. It's got nothing to do with firewalls. It's got nothing to do with Endpoint. It's a unique capability that VMware is uniquely suited to deliver on. And so Pat, thanks for the mission. We delivered it and it's available now. >> Those WET web applications firewall for instance are around, I mean. But to your point, the perimeter's gone. >> Exactly. >> And so you got to get, there's no perimeter. so it's a surface area problem. >> Correct. And access. And entry. >> Correct. >> They're entering here easy from some manual error, or misconfiguration or bad password that shouldn't be there. They're in. >> Think about it this way. You put the front door of your house, you put a big strong door and a big lock. That's a firewall. Bad guys come in the window. >> And then the windows open. With a ladder. >> Oh my God. Cause it's hot, bad user behavior trumps good security every time. >> And then they move around room to room. We're the room to room people. We see each little piece of the thing. Wait, that shouldn't happen. Right. >> I want to get you a question that we've been seeing and maybe we're early on this or it might be just a false data point. A lot of CSOs and we're talking to are, and people in industry in the customer environment are looking at CISOs and CSOs, two roles. Chief information security officer, and then chief security officer. Amazon, actually Steven Schmidt is now CSO at Reinforce. They actually called that out. And the interesting point that he made, we had some other situations that verified this, is that physical security is now tied to online, to your point about the service area. If I get a password, I still got the keys to the physical goods too. >> Right. So physical security, whether it's warehouse for them or store or retail. Digital is coming in there. >> Yeah. So is there a CISO anymore? Is it just CSO? What's the role? Or are there two roles you see that evolving? Or is that just circumstance. >> I think it's just one. And I think that the stakes are incredibly high in security. Just look at the impact that these security attacks are having on. Companies get taken down. Equifax market cap was cut 80% with a security breach. So security's gone from being sort of a nuisance to being something that can impact your whole kind of business operation. And then there's a whole nother domain where politics get involved. It determines the fate of nations. I know that sounds grand, but it's true. And so companies care so much about it they're looking for one leader, one throat to choke. One person that's going to lead security in the virtual domain, in the physical domain, in the cyber domain, in the actual. >> I mean, you mention that, but I mean, you look at Ukraine. I mean that cyber is a component of that war. I mean, it's very clear. I mean, that's new. We've never seen. this. >> And in my opinion, the stuff that we see happening in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what could happen. >> Yeah. >> So the US, we have a policy of strategic deterrence. Where we develop some of the most sophisticated cyber weapons in the world. We don't use them. And we hope never to use them. Because our adversaries, who could do stuff like, I don't know, wipe out every bank account in North America. Or turn off the lights in New York City. They know that if they were to do something like that, we could do something back. >> This is the red line conversation I want to go there. So, I had this discussion with Robert Gates in 2016 and he said, "We have a lot more to lose." Which is really your point. >> So this brand. >> I agree that there's to have freedom and liberty, you got to strike back with divorce. And that's been our way to balance things out. But with cyber, the red line, people are already in banks. So they're are operating below the red line line. Red line meaning before we know you're in there. So do we move the red line down because, hey, Sony got hacked. The movie. Because they don't have their own militia. >> Yeah. >> If their were physical troops on the shores of LA breaking into the file cabinets. The government would've intervened. >> I agree with you that it creates tension for us in the US because our adversaries don't have the clear delineation between public and private sector. Here you're very, very clear if you're working for the government. Or you work for an private entity. There's no ambiguity on that. >> Collaboration, Tom, and the vendor community. I mean, we've seen efforts to try to. >> That's a good question. >> Monetize private data and private reports. >> So at VMware, I'm very proud of the security capabilities we've built. But we also partner with people that I think of as direct competitors. We've got firewall vendors and Endpoint vendors that we work with and integrate. And so coopetition is something that exists. It's hard. Because when you have these kind of competing. So, could we do more? Of course we probably could. But I do think we've done a fair amount of cooperation, data sharing, product integration, et cetera. And as the threats get worse, you'll probably see us continue to do more. >> And the government is going to trying to force that too. >> And the government also drives standards. So let's talk about crypto. Okay. So there's a new form of encryption coming out called processing quantum. >> Quantum. Quantum computers have the potential to crack any crypto cipher we have today. That's bad. Okay. That's not good at all because our whole system is built around these private communications. So the industry is having conversations about crypto agility. How can we put in place the ability to rapidly iterate the ciphers in encryption. So, when the day quantum becomes available, we can change them and stay ahead of these quantum people. >> Well, didn't NIST just put out a quantum proof algo that's being tested right now by the community? >> There's a lot of work around that. Correct. And NIST is taking the lead on this, but Google's working on it. VMware's working on it. We're very, very active in how do we keep ahead of the attackers and the bad guys? Because this quantum thing is a, it's an x-ray machine. It's like a dilithium crystal that can power a whole ship. It's a really, really, really powerful tool. >> Bad things will happen. >> Bad things could happen. >> Well, Tom, great to have you on the theCube. Thanks for coming on. Take the last minute to just give a plug for what's going on for you here at VMWorld this year, just VMware Explore this year. >> Yeah. We announced a bunch of exciting things. We announced enhancements to our NSX family, with our advanced load balancer. With our edge firewall. And they're all in service of one thing, which is helping our customers make their private cloud like the public cloud. So I like to say 0, 0, 0. If you are in the cloud operating model, you have zero proprietary appliances. You have zero tickets to launch a workload. You have zero network taps and Zero Trust built into everything you do. And that's what we're working on. Pushing that further and further. >> Tom Gill, senior vices president, head of the networking at VMware. Thanks for coming on. We do appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Always getting the security data. That's killer data and security of the two ops that get the most conversations around DevOps and Cloud Native. This is The theCube bringing you all the action here in San Francisco for VMware Explore 2022. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Welcome back everyone Cube's live coverage here. Day two, two sets, three days of cube coverage here at VMware Explorer. This is our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference, formally called world I'm Jean Dave ante. We'd love seeing the progress and we've got great security comes Tom Gill, senior rights, president general manager, networking and advanced security business group at VMware. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks >>For having me. Yeah, really happy we could have you on, you know, I think, I think this is my sixth edition on the cube. Like, do I get freaking flyer points or anything? >>Yeah, you get first get the VIP badge. We'll make that happen. You can start getting credits. >>Okay. There we go. >>We won't interrupt you. No, seriously, you got a great story in security here. The security story is kind of embedded everywhere, so it's not like called out and, and blown up and talked specifically about on stage. It's kind of in all the narratives in, in the VM world for this year. Yeah. But you guys have an amazing security story. So let's just step back into set context. Tell us the security story for what's going on here at VMware and what that means to this super cloud multi-cloud and ongoing innovation with VMware. Yeah, >>Sure thing. So, so probably the first thing I'll point out is that, that security's not just built in at VMware it's built differently, right? So we're not just taking existing security controls and cut and pasting them into, into our software. But we can do things because of our platform because of the virtualization layer that you really can't do with other security tools and where we're very, very focused is what we call lateral security or east west movement of an attacker. Cuz frankly, that's the name of the game these days. Right? Attackers, you gotta assume that they're already in your network. Okay. Already assume that they're there, then how do we make it hard for them to get to what the, the stuff that you really want, which is the data that they're, they're going after. Right. And that's where we, >>We really should. All right. So we've been talking a lot coming into world VMware Explorer and here the event about two things security as a state. Yeah. I'm secure right now. Yeah. Or I, I think I'm secure right now, even though someone might be in my network or in my environment to the notion of being defensible. Yeah. Meaning I have to defend and be ready at a moment's notice to attack, fight, push back red team, blue team, whatever you're gonna call it, but something's happening. I gotta be a to defend. Yeah. >>So you, what you're talking about is the principle of zero trust. So the, the, when we, when I first started doing security, the model was we have a perimeter and everything on one side of the perimeter is dirty, ugly, old internet and everything on this side known good, trusted what could possibly go wrong. And I think we've seen that no matter how good you make that perimeter, bad guys find a way in. So zero trust says, you know what? Let's just assume they're already in. Let's assume they're there. How do we make it hard for them to move around within the infrastructure and get to the really valuable assets? Cuz for example, if they bust into your laptop, you click on a link and they get code running on your machine. They might find some interesting things on your machine, but they're not gonna find 250 million credit cards. Right. Or the, the script of a new movie or the super secret aircraft plans, right. That lives in a database somewhere. And so it's that movement from your laptop to that database. That's where the damage is done. Yeah. And that's where VMware shines. If they don't >>Have the right to get to that database, they're >>Not >>In and it's not even just the right, like, so they're so clever. And so sneaky that they'll steal a credential off your machine, go to another machine, steal a credential off of that. So it's like they have the key to unlock each one of these doors and we've gotten good enough where we can look at that lateral movement, even though it has a credential and a key where like, wait a minute, that's not a real CIS admin making a change. That's ransomware. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's where we, you have to earn your way in. That's right. That's >>Right. Yeah. And we're all, there's all kinds of configuration errors. But also some, some I'll just user problems. I've heard one story where there's so many passwords and username and passwords and systems that the bad guy's scour, the dark web for passwords that have been exposed. Correct. And go test them against different accounts. Oh one hit over here. Correct. And people don't change their passwords all the time. Correct? Correct. That's a known, known vector. We, >>We just, the idea that users are gonna be perfect and never make mistake. Like how long have we been doing this? Like humans with the weakest link. Right. So, so, so people are gonna make mistakes. Attackers are gonna be in here's another way of thinking about it. Remember log for J. Remember that whole ago, remember that was a Christmas time. That was nine months ago. And whoever came up with that, that vulnerability, they basically had a skeleton key that could access every network on the planet. I don't know if a single customer that was said, oh yeah, I wasn't impacted by log for J. So seers, some organized entity had access to every network on the planet. What was the big breach? What was that movie script that got stolen? So there wasn't one. Right? We haven't heard anything. So the point is the goal of attackers is to get in and stay in. Imagine someone breaks into your house, steals your laptop and runs. That's a breach. Imagine someone breaks into your house and stays for nine months. Like it's untenable, the real world. Right, right. >>We don't even go in there. They're still in there >>Watching your closet. Exactly. Moving around, nibbling on your ni line, your cookies. You know what I mean? Drinking your beer. >>Yeah. So, so let's talk about how this translates into the new reality of cloud native, because now know you hear about, you know, automated pen testing is a, a new hot thing right now you got antivirus on data. Yeah. Is hot is hot within APIs, for instance. Yeah. API security. So all kinds of new hot areas, cloud native is very iterative. You know, you, you can't do a pen test every week. Right. You gotta do it every second. Right. So this is where it's going. It's not so much simulation. It's actually real testing. Right. Right. How do you view that? How does that fit into this? Cuz that seems like a good direction to me. >>Yeah. It, it, it fits right in. And you were talking to my buddy AJ earlier about what VMware can do to help our customers build cloud native applications with, with Zu, my team is focused on how do we secure those applications? So where VMware wants to be the best in the world is securing these applications from within looking at the individual piece parts and how they talk to each other and figuring out, wait a minute. That, that, that, that, that should never happen by like almost having an x-ray machine on the ins of the application. So we do it for both for VMs and for container based applications. So traditional apps are VM based. Modern apps are container based and we, and we have a slightly different insertion mechanism. It's the same idea. So for VMs, we do it with the hypervisor, with NSX, we see all the inner workings in a container world. >>We have this thing called a service me that lets us look at each little snippet of code and how they talk to each other. And once you can see that stuff, then you can actually apply. It's almost like common sense logic of like, wait a minute. You know, this API is giving back credit card numbers and it gives five an hour. All of a sudden, it's now asking for 20,000 or a million credit card that doesn't make any sense. Right? The anomalies stick out like a sore thumb. If you can see them. And VMware, our unique focus in the infrastructure is that we can see each one of these little transactions and understand the conversation. That's what makes us so good at that east west or lateral >>Security. Yeah. You don't belong in this room, get out or that that's right. Some weird call from an in-memory database, something over >>Here. Exactly. Where other, other security solutions won't even see that. Right. It's not like there algorithms aren't as good as ours or, or better or worse. It's that, it's the access to the data. We see the, the, the, the inner plumbing of the app. And therefore we can protect >>The app from, and there's another dimension that I wanna get in the table here, cuz to my knowledge only AWS, Google, I, I believe Microsoft and Alibaba and VMware have this, it nitro the equivalent of a nitro. Yes. Project Monterey. Yeah. That's unique. It's the future of computing architectures. Everybody needs a nitro. I've I've written about this. Yeah. Right. So explain your version. Yeah. Project. It's now real. It's now in the market right. Or soon will be. Yeah. Here. Here's our mission salient aspects. Yeah. >>Here's our mission of VMware is that we wanna make every one of our enterprise customers. We want their private cloud to be as nimble, as agile, as efficient as the public cloud >>And secure >>And secure. In fact, I'll argue, we can make it actually more secure because we're thinking about putting security everywhere in this infrastructure. Right. Not just on the edges of it. So, so, so, okay. How do we go on that journey? As you pointed out, the public cloud providers realized, you know, five years ago that the right way to build computers was not just a CPU and a GPU graphics process, unit GPU, but there's this third thing that the industry's calling a DPU data processing unit. So there's kind of three pieces of a computer. And the DPU is sometimes called a smart Nick it's the network interface card. It does all that network handling and analytics and it takes it off the CPU. So they've been building and deploying those systems themselves. That's what nitro is. And so we have been working with the major Silicon vendors to bring that architecture to everybody. So, so with vSphere eight, we have the ability to take the network processing that east west inspection. I talked about, take it off of the CPU and put it into this dedicated processing element called the DPU and free up the CPU to run the applications that AJ and team are building. >>So no performance degradation at all, correct. >>To CPU >>Offload. So even the opposite, right? I mean you're running it basically bare metal speeds. >>Yes, yes. And yes. >>And, and, and you're also isolating the, the storage right from the, from the, the, the security, the management. And >>There's an isolation angle to this, which is that firewall that we're putting everywhere. Not just that the perimeter, we put it in each little piece of the server is running when it runs on one of these DPU, it's a different memory space. So even if, if an attacker gets to root in the OS, they it's very, very, never say never, but it's very difficult. >>So who has access to that? That, that resource >>Pretty much just the infrastructure layer, the cloud provider. So it's Google Microsoft, you know, and the enterprise, the >>Application can't get in, >>Can't get in there. Cause it, you would've to literally bridge from one memory space to another, never say never, but it would be very, very, >>It hasn't earned the trust >>To get it's more than Bob wire. It's, it's, it's multiple walls and, and >>It's like an air gap. It puts an air gap in the server itself so that if the server's compromised, it's not gonna get into the network really powerful. >>What's the big thing that you're seeing with this super cloud transition we're seeing, we're seeing, you know, multicloud and this new, not just SAS hosted on the cloud. Yeah. You're seeing a much different dynamic of combination of large scale CapEx, cloud native. And then now cloud native develops on premises and edge kind of changing what a cloud looks like if the cloud's on a cloud. So rubber customer, I'm building on a cloud and I have on-prem stuff. So I'm getting scale CapEx relief from the, from the cap, from the hyperscalers. >>I, I think there's an important nuance on what you're talking about, which is, is in the early days of the cloud customers. Remember those first skepticism? Oh, it'll never work. Oh, that's consumer grade. Oh, that's not really gonna work. And some people realize >>It's not secure. Yeah. >>It, it's not secure that one's like, no, no, no, it's secure. It works. And it, and it's good. So then there was this sort of over rush. Like let's put everything on the cloud. And I had a lot of customers that took VM based applications said, I'm gonna move those onto the cloud. You gotta take 'em all apart, put 'em on the cloud and put 'em all back together again. And little tiny details, like changing an IP address. It's actually much harder than it looks. So my argument is for existing workloads for VM based workloads, we are VMware. We're so good at running VM based workloads. And now we run them on anybody's cloud. So whether it's your east coast data center, your west coast data center, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, IBM keep going. Right. We pretty much every, and >>The benefit of the customer is what you >>Can literally vMotion and just pick it up and move it from private to public public, to private, private, to public, public, back and forth. >>Remember when we called VMO BS years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >>We were really, skeptic is >>Powerful. We were very skeptical. We're like, that'll never happen. I mean, we were, I mean, it's supposed to be pat ourselves on the back. We, well, >>Because it's alchemy, it seems like what you can't possibly do that. Right. And so, so, so, and now we do it across clouds, right? So we can, you know, it's not quite VMO, but it's the same idea. You can just move these things over. I have one customer that had a production data center in the Ukraine, things got super tense, super fast, and they had to go from their private cloud data center in the Ukraine to a public cloud data center outta harm's way. They did it over a weekend, 48 hours. If you've ever migrated data, that's usually six months, right? And a lot of heartburn and a lot of angst, boom. They just drag and drop, moved it on over. That's the power of what we call the cloud operating model. And you can only do this when all your infrastructure's defined in software. >>If you're relying on hardware, load, balancers, hardware, firewalls, you can't move those. They're like a boat anchor. You're stuck with them. And by the way, really, really expensive. And by the way, they eat a lot of power, right? So that was an architecture from the nineties in the cloud operating model, your data center. And this goes back to what you were talking about is just racks and racks of X 86 with these magic DPU or smart necks to make any individual node go blisteringly fast and do all the functions that you used to do in network appliances. >>We just said, AJ taking us to school and everyone else to school on applications, middleware abstraction layer. Yeah. And kit Culver was also talking about this across cloud. We're talking super cloud, super pass. If this continues to happen, which we would think it will happen. What does the security posture look like? It has. It feels to me. And again, this is, this is your wheelhouse. If super cloud happens with this kind of past layer where there's B motioning going on, all kinds of yeah. Spanning applications and data. Yeah. Across environments. Yeah. Assume there's an operating system working on behind the scenes. Right. What's the security posture in all this. Yeah. >>So remember my narrative about like VA guys are getting in and they're moving around and they're so sneaky that they're using legitimate pathways. The only way to stop that stuff is you've gotta understand it at what, you know, we call layer seven at the application layer the in, you know, trying to do security, the infrastructure layer. It was interesting 20 years ago, kind of less interesting 10 years ago. And now it's becoming irrelevant because the infrastructure is oftentimes not even visible, right. It's buried in some cloud provider. So layer seven, understanding, application awareness, understanding the APIs and reading the content. That's the name of the game in security. That's what we've been focused on. Right. Nothing to do with >>The infras. And where's the progress bar on that, that paradigm early one at the 10, 10 being everyone's doing it >>Right now. Well, okay. So we, as a vendor can do this today. All the stuff I talked about about reading APIs, understanding the, the individual services looking at, Hey, wait a minute. This credit card anomalies, that's all shipping production code. Where is it in customer adoption life cycle, early days, 10%. So, so there's a whole lot of headroom. We, for people to understand, Hey, I can put these controls in place. There's software based. They don't require appliances. It's layer seven. So it has contextual awareness and it's works on every single cloud. >>You know, we talk about the pandemic. Being an accelerator really was a catalyst to really rethink. Remember we used to talk about pat his security a do over. He's like, yes, if it's the last thing I'm due, I'm gonna fix security. Well, he decided to go try to fix Intel instead, but, >>But, but he's getting some help from the government, >>But it seems like, you know, CISOs have totally rethought, you know, their security strategy. And, and at least in part is a function of the pandemic. >>When I started at VMware four years ago, pat sat me down in his office and he said to me what he said to you, which is like Tom, he said, I feel like we have fundamentally changed servers. We fundamentally changed storage. We fundamentally changed networking. The last piece of the puzzle of security. I want you to go fundamentally change it. And I'll argue that the work that we're doing with this, this horizontal security understanding the lateral movement east west inspection, it fundamentally changes how security works. It's got nothing to do with firewalls. It's got nothing to do with endpoint. It's a unique capability that VMware is uniquely suited to deliver on. And so pat, thanks for the mission. We delivered it and available >>Those, those wet like web applications firewall for instance are, are around. I mean, but to your point, the perimeter's gone. Exactly. And so you gotta get, there's no perimeter. So it's a surface area problem. Correct. And access and entry, correct. They're entering here easy from some manual error or misconfiguration or bad password that shouldn't be there. They're >>In. Think about it this way. You put the front door of your house, you put a big strong door and a big lock. That's a firewall bad guys, come in the window. Right. And >>Then the window's open and the window with a ladder room. Oh my >>God. Cause it's hot, bad user behavior. Trump's good security >>Every time. And then they move around room to room. We're the room to room people. Yeah. We see each little piece of the thing. Wait, that shouldn't happen. Right. >>I wanna get you a question that we've been seeing and maybe we're early on this, or it might be just a, a false data point. A lot of CSOs and we're talking to are, and people in industry in the customer environment are looking at CSOs and CSOs, two roles, chief information security officer, and then chief security officer Amazon, actually, Steven Schmidt is now CSO at reinforced. They actually called that out. Yeah. And the, and the interesting point that he made, we've had some other situations that verified. This is that physical security is now tied to online to your point about the service area. If I get a password, I still at the keys to the physical goods too. Right. Right. So physical security, whether it's warehouse for them is, or store or retail digital is coming in there. Yeah. So is there a CSO anymore? Is it just CSO? What's the role or are there two roles you see that evolving or is that just, >>Well, >>I circumstance, >>I, I think it's just one. And I think that, that, you know, the stakes are incredibly high in security. Just look at the impact that these security attacks are having on it. It, you know, companies get taken down, Equifax market cap was cut, you know, 80% with a security breach. So security's gone from being sort of a nuisance to being something that can impact your whole kind of business operation. And then there's a whole nother domain where politics get involved. Right. It determines the fate of nations. I know that sounds grand, but it's true. Yeah. And so, so, so companies care so much about it. They're looking for one liter, one throat to choke, you know, one person that's gonna lead security in the virtual domain, in the physical domain, in the cyber domain, in, in, you know, in the actual, well, it is, >>I mean, you mentioned that, but I mean, mean you look at Ukraine. I mean the, the, that, that, that cyber is a component of that war. I mean, that's very clear. I mean, that's, that's new, we've never seen >>This. And in my opinion, the stuff that we see happening in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what could happen. Yeah, yeah. Right. So the us, we have a policy of, of strategic deterrents where we develop some of the most sophisticated cyber weapons in the world. We don't use them and we hope never to use them because the, the, our adversaries who could do stuff like, oh, I don't know, wipe out every bank account in north America, or turn off the lights in New York city. They know that if they were to do something like that, we could do something back. >>I, this discuss, >>This is the red line conversation I wanna go there. So >>I had this discussion with Robert Gates in 2016 and he said, we have a lot more to lose, which is really >>Your point. So this brand, so I agree that there's the, to have freedom and Liberty, you gotta strike back with divorce and that's been our way to, to balance things out. Yeah. But with cyber, the red line, people are already in banks. So they're addresses are operating below the red line, red line, meaning before we know you're in there. So do we move the red line down because Hey, Sony got hacked the movie because they don't have their own militia. Yeah. If they were physical troops on the shores of LA breaking into the file cabinets. Yeah. The government would've intervened. >>I, I, I agree with you that it creates, it creates tension for us in the us because our, our adversaries don't have the clear delineation between public and private sector here. You're very, very clear if you're working for the government or you work for an private entity, there's no ambiguity on that. And so, so we have different missions in each department. Other countries will use the same cyber capabilities to steal intellectual, you know, a car design as they would to, you know, penetrate a military network. And that creates a huge hazard for us on the us. Cause we don't know how to respond. Yeah. Is that a civil issue? Is that a, a, a military issue? And so, so it creates policy ambiguity. I still love the clarity of separation of, you know, sort of the various branches of government separation of government from, >>But that, but, but bureau on multinational corporation, you then have to, your cyber is a defensible. You have to build the defenses >>A hundred percent. And I will also say that even though there's a clear D mark between government and private sector, there's an awful lot of cooperation. So, so our CSO, Alex toshe is actively involved in the whole intelligence community. He's on boards and standards and we're sharing because we have a common objective, right? We're all working together to fight these bad guys. And that's one of the things I love about cyber is that that even direct competitors, two big banks that are rivals on the street are working together to share security information and, and private, is >>There enough? Is collaboration Tom in the vendor community? I mean, we've seen efforts to try to, that's a good question, monetize private data, you know? Yeah. And private reports and, >>And, you know, like, so at VMware, we, we, I'm very proud of the security capabilities we've built, but we also partner with people that I think of as direct competitors, we've got firewall vendors and endpoint vendors that we work with and integrate. And so cooperation is something that exists. It's hard, you know, because when you have these kind of competing, you know, so could we do more? Of course we probably could, but I do think we've done a fair amount of cooperation, data sharing, product integration, et cetera, you know, and, you know, as the threats get worse, you'll probably see us continue to do more. >>And the governments is gonna trying to force that too. >>And, and the government also drives standards. So let's talk about crypto. Okay. So there's a new form of encryption coming out called quantum processing, calling out. Yeah. Yeah. Quantum, quantum computers have the potential to crack any crypto cipher we have today. That's bad. Okay. Right. That's not good at all because our whole system is built around these private communications. So, so the industry is having conversations about crypto agility. How can we put in place the ability to rapidly iterate the ciphers in encryption? So when the day quantum becomes available, we can change them and stay ahead of these quantum people. Well, >>Didn't this just put out a quantum proof algo that's being tested right now by the, the community. >>There's a lot of work around that. Correct. And, and, and this is taking the lead on this, but you know, Google's working on it, VMware's working on it. We're very, very active in how do we keep ahead of the attackers and the bad guys? Because this quantum thing is like a, it's a, it's a x-ray machine. You know, it's like, it's like a, a, a di lithium crystal that can power a whole ship. Right. It's a really, really, really powerful >>Tool. It's bad. Things will happen. >>Bad things could happen. >>Well, Tom, great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming. Take the last minute to just give a plug for what's going on for you here at world this year, VMware explore this year. Yeah. >>We announced a bunch of exciting things. We announced enhancements to our, our NSX family, with our advanced load balancer, with our edge firewall. And they're all in service of one thing, which is helping our customers make their private cloud like the public cloud. So I like to say 0, 0, 0. If you are in the cloud operating model, you have zero proprietary appliances. You have zero tickets to launch a workload. You have zero network taps and zero trust built into everything you do. And that's, that's what we're working on and pushing that further and further. >>Tom Gill, senior vices president head of the networking at VMware. Thanks for coming up for you. Appreciate >>It. Yes. Thanks for having guys >>Always getting the security data. That's killer data and security of the two ops that get the most conversations around dev ops and cloud native. This is the queue bringing you all the action here in San Francisco for VMware. Explore 2022. I'm John furrier with Dave, Alan. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes, live coverage here at VMware Explorer, 22. We're here on the ground on the floor of Mosco. I'm John for David ante. We're at kit Goldberg, CTO of VMware, the star of the show, the headliner@supercloud.world. The event we had just a few weeks ago, kit. Great to see you super excited to, to chat with you. Thanks for coming on. Oh >>Yeah. Happy to be here, man. It's been a wild week. Tons of excitement. We are jazzed. We're jacked, like to look at things >>For both, of course, jacked up and jazzed. Ready to go. So you got UN stage loved your keynote, you know, very CTO oriented, hit the, all your marks cloud native, the vSphere eight intro. Yep. More performance, more power. Yeah, more efficiency. And now the cloud native over the top, you shipped a white paper a few weeks ago, which we discussed at our super cloud event. Yep. You know, really laying out the narrative of cloud native. This is the priority for you. Is that true? Is that your only priority? What are the things going on right now for you that are your top priorities, >>Top priorities. So absolutely at a high level, it's flushing out this vision that, that we're talking about in terms of what we call cross cloud services. Other people call multi-cloud, you guys have super cloud, but the point is, I think what we see is that there's these different sort of vertical silos, the different public clouds they're on-prem data center edge. And what we're looking at is trying to create a new type of cloud something that's more horizontal in architecture. And I think this is something that we realize we've been doing at VMware for a while, and we gave it a name, we call it cross cloud. But what's important is that while we do bring a lot of value there, we can't possibly do everything. This has to be an industrywide movement. And so I think what we're really excited about is figuring out, okay, how do we actually build an architecture and a framework such that there's clear sort of lines of responsibility. Here's what one company does. Here's what another one does make sure that there's clean sort of APIs between that basically an overall architecture and structure. So that's probably one of the, the high level things that we're doing as an organization right now. >>What's been the feedback here at VMware Explorer, obviously the new name, Explorer rag laid that out in the keynote. Yep. It's about moving forward. Not replacing the community. Yep. Extending the world core and exploring new frontiers multicloud. Obviously one of them key. Yeah. Very clever actually names dig into it. It's nuanced. What's been the reaction. Yep. You're right. Yep. You're crazy. I love it. I need it. It's it's too early. It's perfect timing. No, it's a bit of, what's the feedback always a little >>Bit of everything, you know, I think one of us firstno people didn't really understand it. I think people were confused about what it was, but now that we're here in person, I think generally speaking, I'm hearing a lot of positive things about it. We've been gone or been apart for three years now, right? Since the last in person one, and this is an interesting opportunity for recreation sort of rebirth, right? We've certainly lost some traditions during the COVID pandemic, but also gives us the opportunity to build new ones. And to your point, world was always associated with virtualization. And of course, we're still doing that. We're still doing cloud infrastructure, but we're doing so much more. And given this focus on multi-cloud that I just mentioned and how it is the go forward focus for VMware, we wanted to evolve the conference to have that focus. And so I've been actually really pleased to see how many folks for it's their first time here. Right? They haven't been Tom worlds before and you know, this broader sort of conference that we're creating to, to apply to the support, more disciplines, different focus areas, you know, application development, developers, platform teams, you got cloud management things with aria, public cloud management, networking security, and user computing, all in addition to the core infrastructure bits. >>So John all week's been paying homage to, to Andy Grove talking about, let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. Right. And so when you talk to customers, that chaos message cloud chaos, how is it resonating? Are they aware of that chaos? Are they saying, yes, we have cloud chaos or some saying, eh, yeah. It's okay. Everything's good. And they just maybe have some blind spots. What do >>You think? Yeah. I'm actually surprised at how strongly it's resonating. I mean, I think we knew that we were onto something, but people even love the specific term. They're like cloud chaos. I never thought about it that way, but you're like, you're absolutely right. It was a movie. It's a great, yeah. I know. Sounds like a thriller, but, but what we sort of, the picture we paint there about these silos across clouds, the duplication of technologies, duplication of teams and training, all this stuff. People realize that's where they're at. And it's one of those things where there's this headlong rush to cloud for good reasons. People wanted to be in the agility, but now they're dealing with some of that complexity that, that gets built up there and it absolutely is chaos. And while speed is great, you need to somehow balance that speed with control things like security compliance. These are sort of enterprise requirements that are sort of getting left out. And I think that's the realization, that's the sort of chaos that we're hitting on. >>It's almost like when in bus, in business school, you had the economic lines when break even hits, you know, cloud had a lot of great goodness to it. Yep. A lot of great value. It still does on the CapEx side, but as distributed computing architectures become reality. Yep. Private cloud instantiation of hybrid cloud operations. Now you've got edge and opening up all these new, new net new applications. Yep. What are you seeing there? And it's a question we've been asked some of the folks in the partner network, what are some of those new next gen apps that are gonna be enabled by, by this next wave edge specifically? Yeah. More performance, more application development, more software. Yeah. More faster, cheaper going on here. Kind of a Moore's law vibe there. What's next. >>Yeah. So, you know, when we look at edge, so, okay. Take today. Today. Edge is oftentimes highly customized software and hardware. It's not general purpose or to cloud technologies. And while edge is certainly gonna be limited. You can't just infinitely scale. Like you can in the cloud and the network bandwidth might be a little bit limited. You still wanna imagine it or manage it as if it were another cloud location, right. That like, I wanna be able to address it. Just like I addressed a certain availabilities done within AWS. I wanna be able to say the specific edge location at, you know, wherever somewhere here in San Francisco, let's say right now there's a few different things though. The first of which is that you got to manage at scale. Cause you don't have with cloud, you got a small number of very large locations with edge. >>You got a large number of very small locations. And so it's the scale is inverted there. So what this means is that you probably can't exactly specify which edge you want to go to. What instead you wanna say is more relational. Like I've got an IOT device out there. I want my app to be in data to be near it. And the system needs to figure out, okay, where do I put that thing? And how do I get it near it? And there may be some different constraints. You have cost security, privacy, it may be your edge or maybe telco edge location, you know, one, one of these sorts of things. Right? And so I think where we're going there is to enable the movement of applications and data to the right place. And this again goes back to the whole cross cloud architecture, right? >>You don't wanna be limited in terms of where you put an app, you wanna have that flexibility. This is the whole, you know, we use the term cloud smart. Right. And that's what it means. It's like put the, the app where it needs to be sort of the right tool for the right job. And so I think the innovation though, it's gonna be huge. You're gonna see new application architectures that the app can be placed near a user near a device near like a, an iPhone or near an IOT device, like a video camera. And the way that you manage that is gonna be much kind of infrastructure is code base. Yeah. So I think there's huge possibilities there. And it's really amazing to see just real quick on the telco side, what's happening there as well. The move to 5g, the move to open ran telco is now starting to adopt these data center and cloud technologies kinda standard building blocks that we use now out at the edge. So I think, you know, the amount of innovation that we're gonna see, >>It's really the first time on telco, they actually have a viable, scalable opportunity to, to put real gear data center, liked capabilities yep. At a location for specific purpose. Yeah. The edge function. >>Yeah. And well, and what we, without >>Building a, a monster >>Facility. Exactly. Yeah. It's like the base of a cell tower or something telephone closet. But what we've been able to do is improve these general purpose technologies. Like you look at vSphere in our hypervisor today. We are great at real time workloads, right? Like as a matter of fact, you look at performance on vSphere versus bare metal. Oftentimes an app runs faster on vSphere now because of all the efficiency and scale and so forth we can bring. So it means that these telecom applications that are very latency sensitive can now run fun on there. But Hey, guess what? Once you have a general purpose server that can run some of the telecom apps, well, Hey, you got extra space to run other apps. Maybe you could sell that space to customers or partners. And you know, then you have this new architecture >>Is the dev skill, a, a barrier for the, for the telcos, where are we at >>With that? It, it, it is. I think the barriers are really, how do you provide, I dunno if it's a skill set. I mean, there's probably some skill set aspects. I think in my mind, it's more about giving them the APIs to get access to that. Like, as I said, you're not gonna have developers knowing, okay, here are the specific geographic locations of all the cell towers in San Francisco and set what you're gonna say again, I need to be near this thing. And so you used geolocation and figure out, just put it some, put it in the right place. I don't really care. Right. So again, I think it's an evolution of management evolution of the APIs that developers use to access. Like today, I'm gonna say, okay, I know my app needs to be on the east coast so I can use us east one. I know the specific AZs at a, at a cloud level. That makes sense at an edge level. It doesn't, you're not gonna know. Okay. Like the specific cross streets or whatever, you gotta let the system figure that >>Out kid. I know you gotta go on. Times's tight, real quick. You got a session here on web three. Yeah. The Cube's got the, you know, the cube versus coming soon. We might be heavy. The cube versus coming powered by arm token, we had all kinds of stuff going on. Yep. You saw the preview a couple years ago. We did with the Cuban. Anyway, you did a session on web three and DM. VMware's rolling real quick. What was that about? Yeah, what's the purpose? >>What's the direction. That was a fascinating conversation. So I was talking about web three. It was talking about why enterprises haven't really started even to scratch the surface of the potential of web three. So part of it was like, okay, what is web three? It's a buzz words. We talked through that. We talked through the use of blockchain, how that sits with the core of a lot of web three. We talked about the use of cryptocurrency and how that makes sense. We talked about the consumerization, continuing consumerization of it. We've seen it with end user devices. We may well see it with some of the web three changes around ownership, individual ownership of data, of assets, et cetera. That's gonna have a downstream impact on enterprises, how they go to market their commercial models. So it was a fascinating discussion that unfortunately it's hard to summarize, but gotten to a lot of the nuances of this and some of the, are >>You bullish on >>It? Very bullish, a hundred percent. Like I think blockchain is a hugely enabling technology and not from a cryptocurrency standpoint, put that aside. All the enterprise use cases, we have customers like broad bridge financial today leveraging VMware blockchain, doing a hundred billion in transactions a day with the sort of repo market >>You think defi is booming >>Defi. So I, I think we're just starting to get there. But what you find is oftentimes these trends start on the consumer side and then all of a sudden they surprise enterprises. >>They call it a tri tried tread five traditional fi finance >>Versus okay. >>Any >>Other way around? No, no, no. But I'm saying is that it's, these consumer trends will start to impact enterprises. But what I'm saying is that enterprises need to be ready now or start preparing now for those comings. >>And what's the preparation for that? Just education learning. Yeah. >>Education learning, looking at blockchain, use cases, looking at what will this enable consumers to do that they couldn't do before there is gonna be a democratization of access to data. You're still gonna wanna have gatekeepers. You're still gonna wanna have enterprises or services that add value on top of that, but it's gonna be a bit more of an open ecosystem now, and that's gonna change some of the market dynamics in subtle ways. >>Okay. So we got one minute left. I want to ask you, what's your impression of the super cloud event we had also, you were headlining and you guys were a big part of bringing the, a large C of great people together. Are you happy with the outcome? What do you think's next for? >>Absolutely. No. I was super excited to see how much reception and engagement it got from across the industry. Right? So many different entry participants, so many different customers, partners, et cetera, viewing it online have had a lot of conversations here at explore already. As you know, you know, VMware, we put out a white paper, our point of view on what is a multi-cloud service. What is the taxonomy of those services? Again, as I mentioned before, we need to get as an industry to a place where we have alignment about this overall architecture to enable interoperability. And I think that's really the key thing. If we're gonna make this industry architectural shift, which is what I see coming, this is what we got. >>And you're gonna be jumping all in with this and helping out if we need you >>Hundred percent. All right. >>All in. I really love your transparency on the, on your white paper. Check out the white paper online on vmware.com. It's the cross cloud cloud native. I, I call the, the mission statement. It's not a Jerry McGuire memo. It's more me than that. It's the, it's the direction of cloud native. Yep. And multi-cloud thanks for coming on and, and thanks for doing that too. >>No, of course. And thanks for having me. Thanks. Love the discussion. >>Okay. More live coverage here at world Explorer, VMware Explorer, after the short break.

(bright upbeat music) >> In 2011, early Facebook employee and Cloudera co-founder Jeff Hammerbacher famously said, "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to get people to click on ads, and that sucks!" Let's face it. More than a decade later, organizations continue to be frustrated with how difficult it is to get value from data and build a truly agile and data-driven enterprise. What does that even mean, you ask? Well, it means that everyone in the organization has the data they need when they need it in a context that's relevant to advance the mission of an organization. Now, that could mean cutting costs, could mean increasing profits, driving productivity, saving lives, accelerating drug discovery, making better diagnoses, solving supply chain problems, predicting weather disasters, simplifying processes, and thousands of other examples where data can completely transform people's lives beyond manipulating internet users to behave a certain way. We've heard the prognostications about the possibilities of data before and in fairness we've made progress, but the hard truth is the original promises of master data management, enterprise data warehouses, data marts, data hubs, and yes even data lakes were broken and left us wanting for more. Welcome to The Data Doesn't Lie... Or Does It? A series of conversations produced by theCUBE and made possible by Starburst Data. I'm your host, Dave Vellante, and joining me today are three industry experts. Justin Borgman is the co-founder and CEO of Starburst, Richard Jarvis is the CTO at EMIS Health, and Teresa Tung is cloud first technologist at Accenture. Today, we're going to have a candid discussion that will expose the unfulfilled, and yes, broken promises of a data past. We'll expose data lies: big lies, little lies, white lies, and hidden truths. And we'll challenge, age old data conventions and bust some data myths. We're debating questions like is the demise of a single source of truth inevitable? Will the data warehouse ever have feature parity with the data lake or vice versa? Is the so-called modern data stack simply centralization in the cloud, AKA the old guards model in new cloud close? How can organizations rethink their data architectures and regimes to realize the true promises of data? Can and will an open ecosystem deliver on these promises in our lifetimes? We're spanning much of the Western world today. Richard is in the UK, Teresa is on the West Coast, and Justin is in Massachusetts with me. I'm in theCUBE studios, about 30 miles outside of Boston. Folks, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, let's get right into it. You're very welcome. Now, here's the first lie. The most effective data architecture is one that is centralized with a team of data specialists serving various lines of business. What do you think Justin? >> Yeah, definitely a lie. My first startup was a company called Hadapt, which was an early SQL engine for IDU that was acquired by Teradata. And when I got to Teradata, of course, Teradata is the pioneer of that central enterprise data warehouse model. One of the things that I found fascinating was that not one of their customers had actually lived up to that vision of centralizing all of their data into one place. They all had data silos. They all had data in different systems. They had data on prem, data in the cloud. Those companies were acquiring other companies and inheriting their data architecture. So despite being the industry leader for 40 years, not one of their customers truly had everything in one place. So I think definitely history has proven that to be a lie. >> So Richard, from a practitioner's point of view, what are your thoughts? I mean, there's a lot of pressure to cut cost, keep things centralized, serve the business as best as possible from that standpoint. What does your experience show? >> Yeah, I mean, I think I would echo Justin's experience really that we as a business have grown up through acquisition, through storing data in different places sometimes to do information governance in different ways to store data in a platform that's close to data experts people who really understand healthcare data from pharmacies or from doctors. And so, although if you were starting from a greenfield site and you were building something brand new, you might be able to centralize all the data and all of the tooling and teams in one place. The reality is that businesses just don't grow up like that. And it's just really impossible to get that academic perfection of storing everything in one place. >> Teresa, I feel like Sarbanes-Oxley have kind of saved the data warehouse, right? (laughs) You actually did have to have a single version of the truth for certain financial data, but really for some of those other use cases I mentioned, I do feel like the industry has kind of let us down. What's your take on this? Where does it make sense to have that sort of centralized approach versus where does it make sense to maybe decentralize? >> I think you got to have centralized governance, right? So from the central team, for things like Sarbanes-Oxley, for things like security, for certain very core data sets having a centralized set of roles, responsibilities to really QA, right? To serve as a design authority for your entire data estate, just like you might with security, but how it's implemented has to be distributed. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to scale, right? So being able to have different parts of the business really make the right data investments for their needs. And then ultimately, you're going to collaborate with your partners. So partners that are not within the company, right? External partners. We're going to see a lot more data sharing and model creation. And so you're definitely going to be decentralized. >> So Justin, you guys last, jeez, I think it was about a year ago, had a session on data mesh. It was a great program. You invited Zhamak Dehghani. Of course, she's the creator of the data mesh. One of our fundamental premises is that you've got this hyper specialized team that you've got to go through if you want anything. But at the same time, these individuals actually become a bottleneck, even though they're some of the most talented people in the organization. So I guess, a question for you Richard. How do you deal with that? Do you organize so that there are a few sort of rock stars that build cubes and the like or have you had any success in sort of decentralizing with your constituencies that data model? >> Yeah. So we absolutely have got rockstar data scientists and data guardians, if you like. People who understand what it means to use this data, particularly the data that we use at EMIS is very private, it's healthcare information. And some of the rules and regulations around using the data are very complex and strict. So we have to have people who understand the usage of the data, then people who understand how to build models, how to process the data effectively. And you can think of them like consultants to the wider business because a pharmacist might not understand how to structure a SQL query, but they do understand how they want to process medication information to improve patient lives. And so that becomes a consulting type experience from a set of rock stars to help a more decentralized business who needs to understand the data and to generate some valuable output. >> Justin, what do you say to a customer or prospect that says, "Look, Justin. I got a centralized team and that's the most cost effective way to serve the business. Otherwise, I got duplication." What do you say to that? >> Well, I would argue it's probably not the most cost effective, and the reason being really twofold. I think, first of all, when you are deploying a enterprise data warehouse model, the data warehouse itself is very expensive, generally speaking. And so you're putting all of your most valuable data in the hands of one vendor who now has tremendous leverage over you for many, many years to come. I think that's the story at Oracle or Teradata or other proprietary database systems. But the other aspect I think is that the reality is those central data warehouse teams, as much as they are experts in the technology, they don't necessarily understand the data itself. And this is one of the core tenets of data mesh that Zhamak writes about is this idea of the domain owners actually know the data the best. And so by not only acknowledging that data is generally decentralized, and to your earlier point about Sarbanes-Oxley, maybe saving the data warehouse, I would argue maybe GDPR and data sovereignty will destroy it because data has to be decentralized for those laws to be compliant. But I think the reality is the data mesh model basically says data's decentralized and we're going to turn that into an asset rather than a liability. And we're going to turn that into an asset by empowering the people that know the data the best to participate in the process of curating and creating data products for consumption. So I think when you think about it that way, you're going to get higher quality data and faster time to insight, which is ultimately going to drive more revenue for your business and reduce costs. So I think that that's the way I see the two models comparing and contrasting. >> So do you think the demise of the data warehouse is inevitable? Teresa, you work with a lot of clients. They're not just going to rip and replace their existing infrastructure. Maybe they're going to build on top of it, but what does that mean? Does that mean the EDW just becomes less and less valuable over time or it's maybe just isolated to specific use cases? What's your take on that? >> Listen, I still would love all my data within a data warehouse. I would love it mastered, would love it owned by a central team, right? I think that's still what I would love to have. That's just not the reality, right? The investment to actually migrate and keep that up to date, I would say it's a losing battle. Like we've been trying to do it for a long time. Nobody has the budgets and then data changes, right? There's going to be a new technology that's going to emerge that we're going to want to tap into. There's going to be not enough investment to bring all the legacy, but still very useful systems into that centralized view. So you keep the data warehouse. I think it's a very, very valuable, very high performance tool for what it's there for, but you could have this new mesh layer that still takes advantage of the things I mentioned: the data products in the systems that are meaningful today, and the data products that actually might span a number of systems. Maybe either those that either source systems with the domains that know it best, or the consumer-based systems or products that need to be packaged in a way that'd be really meaningful for that end user, right? Each of those are useful for a different part of the business and making sure that the mesh actually allows you to use all of them. >> So, Richard, let me ask you. Take Zhamak's principles back to those. You got the domain ownership and data as product. Okay, great. Sounds good. But it creates what I would argue are two challenges: self-serve infrastructure, let's park that for a second, and then in your industry, one of the most regulated, most sensitive, computational governance. How do you automate and ensure federated governance in that mesh model that Teresa was just talking about? >> Well, it absolutely depends on some of the tooling and processes that you put in place around those tools to centralize the security and the governance of the data. And I think although a data warehouse makes that very simple 'cause it's a single tool, it's not impossible with some of the data mesh technologies that are available. And so what we've done at EMIS is we have a single security layer that sits on top of our data mesh, which means that no matter which user is accessing which data source, we go through a well audited, well understood security layer. That means that we know exactly who's got access to which data field, which data tables. And then everything that they do is audited in a very kind of standard way regardless of the underlying data storage technology. So for me, although storing the data in one place might not be possible, understanding where your source of truth is and securing that in a common way is still a valuable approach, and you can do it without having to bring all that data into a single bucket so that it's all in one place. And so having done that and investing quite heavily in making that possible has paid dividends in terms of giving wider access to the platform, and ensuring that only data that's available under GDPR and other regulations is being used by the data users. >> Yeah. So Justin, we always talk about data democratization, and up until recently, they really haven't been line of sight as to how to get there, but do you have anything to add to this because you're essentially doing analytic queries with data that's all dispersed all over. How are you seeing your customers handle this challenge? >> Yeah, I mean, I think data products is a really interesting aspect of the answer to that. It allows you to, again, leverage the data domain owners, the people who know the data the best, to create data as a product ultimately to be consumed. And we try to represent that in our product as effectively, almost eCommerce like experience where you go and discover and look for the data products that have been created in your organization, and then you can start to consume them as you'd like. And so really trying to build on that notion of data democratization and self-service, and making it very easy to discover and start to use with whatever BI tool you may like or even just running SQL queries yourself. >> Okay guys, grab a sip of water. After the short break, we'll be back to debate whether proprietary or open platforms are the best path to the future of data excellence. Keep it right there. (bright upbeat music)

>> Announcer: theCube presents HPE Discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >> Hello and welcome back to theCube's continuous coverage HPE Discover 2022 and from Las Vegas the formerly Sands Convention Center now Venetian, John Furrier and Dave Vellante here were excited to welcome in Jen Huffstetler. Who's the Chief product Sustainability Officer at Intel Jen, welcome to theCube thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> You're really welcome. So you dial back I don't know, the last decade and nobody really cared about it but some people gave it lip service but corporations generally weren't as in tune, what's changed? Why has it become so top of mind? >> I think in the last year we've noticed as we all were working from home that we had a greater appreciation for the balance in our lives and the impact that climate change was having on the world. So I think across the globe there's regulations industry and even personally, everyone is really starting to think about this a little more and corporations specifically are trying to figure out how are they going to continue to do business in these new regulated environments. >> And IT leaders generally weren't in tune cause they weren't paying the power bill for years it was the facilities people, but then they started to come together. How should leaders in technology, business tech leaders, IT leaders, CIOs, how should they be thinking about their sustainability goals? >> Yeah, I think for IT leaders specifically they really want to be looking at the footprint of their overall infrastructure. So whether that is their on-prem data center, their cloud instances, what can they do to maximize the resources and lower the footprint that they contribute to their company's overall footprint. So IT really has a critical role to play I think because as you'll find in IT, the carbon footprint of the data center of those products in use is actually it's fairly significant. So having a focus there will be key. >> You know compute has always been one of those things where, you know Intel's been makes chips so that, you know heat is important in compute. What is Intel's current goals? Give us an update on where you guys are at. What's the ideal goal in the long term? Where are you now? You guys always had a focus on this for a long, long time. Where are we now? Cause I won't say the goalpost of changed, they're changing the definitions of what this means. What's the current state of Intel's carbon footprint and overall goals? >> Yeah, no thanks for asking. As you mentioned, we've been invested in lowering our environmental footprint for decades in fact, without action otherwise, you know we've already lowered our carbon footprint by 75%. So we're really in that last mile. And that is why when we recently announced a very ambitious goal Net-Zero 2040 for our scope one and two for manufacturing operations, this is really an industry leading goal. And partly because the technology doesn't even exist, right? For the chemistries and for making the silicon into the sand into, you know, computer chips yet. And so by taking this bold goal, we're going to be able to lead the industry, partner with academia, partner with consortia, and that drive is going to have ripple effects across the industry and all of the components in semiconductors. >> Is there a changing definition of Net-Zero? What that means, cause some people say they're Net-Zero and maybe in one area they might be but maybe holistically across the company as it becomes more of a broader mandate society, employees, partners, Wall Street are all putting pressure on companies. Is the Net-Zero conversation changed a little bit or what's your view on that? >> I think we definitely see it changing with changing regulations like those coming forth from the SEC here in the US and in Europe. Net-Zero can't just be lip service anymore right? It really has to be real reductions on your footprint. And we say then otherwise and even including in our supply chain goals what we've taken new goals to reduce, but our operations are growing. So I think everybody is going through this realization that you know, with the growth, how do we keep it lower than it would've been otherwise, keep focusing on those reductions and have not just renewable credits that could have been bought in one location and applied to a different geographical location but real credible offsets for where the the products manufactured or the computes deployed. >> Jen, when you talk about you've reduced already by 75% you're on that last mile. We listened to Pat Gelsinger very closely up until recently he was the number one most frequently had on theCube guest. He's been busy I guess. But as you apply that discipline to where you've been, your existing business and now Pat's laid out this plan to increase the Foundry business how does that affect your... Are you able to carry through that reduction to, you know, the new foundries? Do you have to rethink that? How does that play in? >> Certainly, well, the Foundry expansion of our business with IBM 2.0 is going to include the existing factories that already have the benefit of those decades of investment and focus. And then, you know we have clear goals for our new factories in Ohio, in Europe to achieve goals as well. That's part of the overall plan for Net-Zero 2040. It's inclusive of our expansion into Foundry which means that many, many many more customers are going to be able to benefit from the leadership that Intel has here. And then as we onboard acquisitions as any company does we need to look at the footprint of the acquisition and see what we can do to align it with our overall goals. >> Yeah so sustainable IT I don't know for some reason was always an area of interest to me. And when we first started, even before I met you, John we worked with PG&E to help companies get rebates for installing technologies that would reduce their carbon footprint. >> Jen: Very forward thinking. >> And it was a hard thing to get, you know, but compute was the big deal. And there were technologies and I remember virtualization at the time was one and we would go in and explain to the PG&E engineers how that all worked. Cause they had metrics and that they wanted to see, but anyway, so virtualization was clearly one factor. What are the technologies today that people should be paying, flash storage was another one. >> John: AI's going to have a big impact. >> Reduce the spinning disk, but what are the ones today that are going to have an impact? >> Yeah, no, that's a great question. We like to think of the built in acceleration that we have including some of the early acceleration for virtualization technologies as foundational. So built in accelerated compute is green compute and it allows you to maximize the utilization of the transistors that you already have deployed in your data center. This compute is sitting there and it is ready to be used. What matters most is what you were talking about, John that real world workload performance. And it's not just you know, a lot of specsmanship around synthetic benchmarks, but AI performance with the built in acceleration that we have in Xeon processors with the Intel DL Boost, we're able to achieve four X, the AI performance per Watts without you know, doing that otherwise. You think about the consolidation you were talking about that happened with virtualization. You're basically effectively doing the same thing with these built in accelerators that we have continued to add over time and have even more coming in our Sapphire Generation. >> And you call that green compute? Or what does that mean, green compute? >> Well, you are greening your compute. >> John: Okay got it. >> By increasing utilization of your resources. If you're able to deploy AI, utilize the telemetry within the CPU that already exists. We have customers KDDI in Japan has a great Proofpoint that they already announced on their 5G data center, lowered their data center power by 20%. That is real bottom line impact as well as carbon footprint impact by utilizing all of those built in capabilities. So, yeah. >> We've heard some stories earlier in the event here at Discover where there was some cooling innovations that was powering moving the heat to power towns and cities. So you start to see, and you guys have been following this data center and been part of the whole, okay and hot climates, you have cold climates, but there's new ways to recycle energy where's that cause that sounds very Sci-Fi to me that oh yeah, the whole town runs on the data center exhaust. So there's now systems thinking around compute. What's your reaction to that? What's the current view on re-engineering a system to take advantage of that energy or recycling? >> I think when we look at our vision of sustainable compute over this horizon it's going to be required, right? We know that compute helps to solve society's challenges and the demand for it is not going away. So how do we take new innovations looking at a systems level as compute gets further deployed at the edge, how do we make it efficient? How do we ensure that that compute can be deployed where there is air pollution, right? So some of these technologies that you have they not only enable reuse but they also enable some you know, closing in of the solution to make it more robust for edge deployments. It'll allow you to place your data center wherever you need it. It no longer needs to reside in one place. And then that's going to allow you to have those energy reuse benefits either into district heating if you're in, you know Northern Europe or there's examples with folks putting greenhouses right next to a data center to start growing food in what we're previously food deserts. So I don't think it's science fiction. It is how we need to rethink as a society. To utilize everything we have, the tools at our hand. >> There's a commercial on the radio, on the East Coast anyway, I don't know if you guys have heard of it, it's like, "What's your one thing?" And the gentleman comes on, he talks about things that you can do to help the environment. And he says, "What's your one thing?" So what's the one thing or maybe it's not just one that IT managers should be doing to affect carbon footprint? >> The one thing to affect their carbon footprint, there are so many things. >> Dave: Two, three, tell me. >> I think if I was going to pick the one most impactful thing that they could do in their infrastructure is it's back to John's comment. It's imagine if the world deployed AI, all the benefits not only in business outcomes, you know the revenue, lowering the TCO, but also lowering the footprint. So I think that's the one thing they could do. If I could throw in a baby second, it would be really consider how you get renewable energy into your computing ecosystem. And then you know, at Intel, when we're 80% renewable power, our processors are inherently low carbon because of all the work that we've done others have less than 10% renewable energy. So you want to look for products that have low carbon by design, any Intel based system and where you can get renewables from your grid to ask for it, run your workload there. And even the next step to get to sustainable computing it's going to take everyone, including every enterprise to think differently and really you know, consider what would it look like to bring renewables onto my site? If I don't have access through my local utility and many customers are really starting to evaluate that. >> Well Jen its great to have you on theCube. Great insight into the current state of the art of sustainability and carbon footprint. My final question for you is more about the talent out there. The younger generation coming in I'll say the pressure, people want to work for a company that's mission driven we know that, the Wall Street impact is going to be financial business model and then save the planet kind of pressure. So there's a lot of talent coming in. Is there awareness at the university level? Is there a course where can, do people get degrees in sustainability? There's a lot of people who want to come into this field what are some of the talent backgrounds of people learning or who might want to be in this field? What would you recommend? How would you describe how to onboard into the career if they want to contribute? What are some of those factors? Cause it's not new, new, but it's going to be globally aware. >> Yeah well there certainly are degrees with focuses on sustainability maybe to look at holistically at the enterprise, but where I think the globe is really going to benefit, we didn't really talk about the software inefficiency. And as we delivered more and more compute over the last few decades, basically the programming languages got more inefficient. So there's at least 35% inefficiency in the software. So being a software engineer, even if you're not an AI engineer. So AI would probably be the highest impact being a software engineer to focus on building new applications that are going to be efficient applications that they're well utilizing the transistor that they're not leaving zombie you know, services running that aren't being utilized. So I actually think-- >> So we got a program in assembly? (all laughing) >> (indistinct), would get really offended. >> Get machine language. I have to throw that in sorry. >> Maybe not that bad. (all laughing) >> That's funny, just a joke. But the question is what's my career path. What's a hot career in this area? Sustainability, AI totally see that. Anything else, any other career opportunities you see or hot jobs or hot areas to work on? >> Yeah, I mean, just really, I think it takes every architect, every engineer to think differently about their design, whether it's the design of a building or the design of a processor or a motherboard we have a whole low carbon architecture, you know, set of actions that are we're underway that will take to the ecosystem. So it could really span from any engineering discipline I think. But it's a mindset with which you approach that customer problem. >> John: That system thinking, yeah. >> Yeah sustainability designed in. Jen thanks so much for coming back in theCube, coming on theCube. It's great to have you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Dave Vellante for John Furrier, we're sustaining theCube. We're winding down day three, HPE Discover 2022. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)