>> Hello everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversations here in Palo Alto, California John Furrier, host of the Cube. I'm here with Jagane Sundar CTO chief technology officer of WANdisco, you get great to see you again. Place we're coming on. >> Thank you for having me, John. >> So the conversation I want to talk to about the technology behind WANdisco and we've had many conversations. So for the folks watching good, our YouTube channel insurgency the evolution of conversations over, I think. Eight, eight, nine years now we've been chatting. What a level up. You guys are now with cloud big announcements around multi cloud live data in particular. So the technology is the gift that keeps giving for WANdisco you guys continuing to take territory now, a big way with cloud, big growth, A lot of changes, a lot of hires. What's going on? >> So, as you well know, WANdisco stands for wide area network distributed, computing on the value ofthe the wide data network aspect is really shining through now because nobody goes to the cloud saying, I'm going to put it in one data center. It's always multiple regions, multiple data centers in each region. Suddenly, problem of having your data consistent, being across multiple cloud windows are on prem to cloud becomes a real challenge. We stepped in. We had something that was a good solution for small users, small data. But we developed it into something that's fantastic for large data volumes on people are running into the problem. The biggest problem that IT providers have is that data scientists do not respect data that's not consistent. If you look at a replica of data and you're not sure whether it's exactly accurate or not the data scientists who spent all his time building algorithms to predict some model gonna look at it and go, that data's not quite right. I'm not going to look at it. So if you use a inconsistent tool or an inadequate tool to replicate your data, you have the problem that nobody is going to respect the replicas. Everybody's going to go back to the source of truth. We solved that problem elegantly and accurately >> State the problem specifically. Is it the integrity of the data? What is the specific problem statement that you guys solve with technology? >> Let me give you an exam you have notifications that come out of cloud object stores when an object this place into the store or deleted from the store that the best effort delivery. If there are logjams in this mechanism used to deliver some notifications, maybe drop the problem with using that notification mechanism to replicate your data is that over a period of time, so you have two three petabytes of data and you're replicating it over a month or month and a half, you'll find that maybe point one percent of your data is not quite accurate anymore. So the value ofthe the replicas essentially zero >> like a leaky pipe. Basically, >> indeed, if you have a leaking pipe, then it's just totally >> we need to have integrity and to end. All right, let's get back to some of the things I want to ask because I think it's a fascinating been following your story. For years, you had a point solution. Multiple wider. You had the replication active, active great for data centers. So disaster recovery not mission critical, but certainly critical. Correct, depending on how it the mission of us. It wasn't this asked Income's Cloud. You mentioned a wide area. Networks and you go back to the old days when I was breaking into the business. That's when they had, you know, dial up modems and front pagers. Not even cell phones. Just starting. Why do your network would have really complicated beast and all the best resource is worked on expensive bandwith, that he had remote offices and you had campus networking then. So why the area networking went through that phase one? Correct. Now we're living in. They win all the time. Cloud is when white area >> correct cloud is when. But there are subtle aspect that people miss all the time. If you go to store an object in Amazon, says three, for example, you pick a region. If it's a complete wide area distributed entity, why do you need to pick a region? The truth is, each cloud vendor hides a number of region specific or local area network specific aspects of their service. Dynamo DB runs and one data centre one one region, two or three availability zones in a region. If you want to replicate that data, you don't really have much help from the cloud vendor themselves. So you need to parse the truth from what has offered what you will find us. The van is still a very challenging problem for a lot of these data application problems. >> Talk about the wide area network challenges in the modern era we're living in, which is cloud computing mentioned some of the nuances around regions and availability zones. Basically, the cloud grew up as building blocks and the plumbing on the neither essentially a mai britt of of certain techniques and networking. Local area network V lands tunneling All these stuff Nets router. So it's obviously plumbing. Yes, what's different now that's important to take that to the next level. Because, you know, there are arguments that saying, Hey, GPR, I might want to have certain regions be smarter, right? So you're starting to see a level up that Amazon and others air going. Google, in particular, talks about this a lot as Ama's Microsoft. What's that next level of when, where the plumbing it's upgraded from basically the other things. >> So the problem really has to be stated in terms ofthe your data architecture. If you look at your data on, figure out that you need the set of data to be available for your business critical applications, then the problem turns into. I need replicas of this data in this region and the other reasons, perhaps in two different cloud render locations because you don't want to be tied down to their availability. One cloud vendor, then the problem tones into How do you hide the complexity of replicating and keeping this data consistent from the users of the data data scientists, the application authors and so on. Now, that's where we step in. We have a transparent replication solution that fits into the plumbing. It's often offered by the IT folks as part of their cloud offering or as part of the hybrid offering. The application. Developers don't really need to worry about those things. A specific example would be hive tables that are users building in one data center an IT Professional from that organization can buy our replication software. That table will be available in multiple data centers and multiple regions available for both Read and write. The user did not do anything or does not need to be a there. So if you have problems such as GDPR requires the data to be here. But this summarized data can be available across all of these regions. Then we can solve the problem elegantly for you without any act application rewiring or reauthoring. >> Talk about the technology that makes all this happen again. This has been a key part of your success that WANdisco love the always love the name wide area there was a big wide area that were fan did that in my early days configuring router tables. You know how it has been. You know, hardcore back then, Distributed systems is certainly large. Scale now is part of the clouds. So all the large scale guys like me when we grew up into computer science days had to think about systems, architecture at scale. We're actually living it now, Correct. So talk about the technology. What specifically do you guys have that that that's your technology and talk about the impact to the scale piece. I think that's a real key technology piece >> indeed. So the core of our algorithm is enhancements and superior implementation. Often algorithm called paxos. Now paxos itself is the only mathematically proven algorithm for keeping replicas in multiple machines or multiple regions. So multiple data centers the other alternatives. Such a raft and zookeeper protocol. These are all compromises for the sake of the ease of implementation. Now we don't feel the cost of implementation. We spent many years doing the research on it, so we have fantastic implementation. Of paxos is extended for use over wide data networks without any special hardware I mentioned without any special hardware piece, because Google Spanner, which is one of our primary competitors, has an implementation that that needs your own specific network and hardware. So the value of >> because they're tired, the clock, atomic clock, actually, to the infrastructure of their timings, that's all synchronized. So it's it's only within Google Cloud? >> Exactly. It cannot even be made available to Google's customers of Google Cloud. That was a feature that they added recently, but it's rolling out in very limited. >> They inherited that from their large scale correct Google. Yes, which is a big table spanner. These are awesome products. >> These are awesome products, but they're very specific >>Tailored for Google. >> Yes, they're great in the Google environment. They're not so great outside of Google. Now we have technology that makes you able to run this across a Google Cloud and Microsoft's Cloud and Amazons Cloud. The value of this is that you have truly cloud neutral solutions. You don't need to worry about when the lock in, you don't need to worry about availability problems in one of the cloud vendors and then you can scale your solution. You can go in with an approach such that when the virtual machines or the compute resource is in one cloud vendor are really inexpensive. Will use that when it's very expensive. Will move our workloads to other locations. You can think up architectures like that, with our solution underpinning your replication >> rights again. I'm gonna ask you the technical quite love these conversations get down and dirty on the hood. So Joel Horowitz was on your new CMO former Microsoft. Keep alumni Richard CEO Talk aboutthe. Same thing. Moving data around the key value probably that's tied right into your legacy of your I P and how that value is with integrity. Moving data from point A to point B. But the world's moving also to identify scenarios where I'm going to move compute rather than through the day, because people have recognized that moving data is hard you got late in C and this cost in band with so two schools of thought not mutually exclusive. When do you pick one? >> Okay, absolutely. They're not mutually exclusive because there are data availability needs that defined some replication scenarios on their computer needs that can be more flexible. If you had the ability to say, have data in Amazon's cloud on in Microsoft's Cloud, You mean Want to use some Amazon specific tools for specific computer scenarios at the same time, used Microsoft tools for other scenarios or perhaps use open source, too, like Hadoop in either one of those clouds? Those are all mechanisms that work perfectly well, but at the core you have to figure out your data architecture. If you can live with your data in one region or in one data center, clearly that's what you should do. But if you cannot have that data, be unavailable, you do have to replicate it. At that point, you should consider replicating to a different cloud window because availability is concerned with all these vendors. >> So two things I hear you say one availability is it's a driver. The other one is user preference Yes. Why not have people who know Microsoft tools and Microsoft software work on Microsoft framework of someone using something else in another cloud? The same data can live in both places. You guys make that happen? Is that what you're saying? Exactly. That's a big deal. >> Absolutely. And we guarantee the consistency that a guarantee that you will not get from any other bender. >> So this basically debunks the whole walk in, Yes, that you guys air solution to to essentially relieve this notion of lock and so me as a customer and say, Hey, I'm an Amazon right now. We're all in an Amazon. But, you know, I've got some temptation to goto Azure or Google. Why wouldn't I if I have the ability to make my data consistent, exact. Is that what you're saying? >> That is exactly what I'm saying. You have this ability to experiment with different cloud vendors. You also have the ability to mitigate some of the cost aspect. If you're going to pay for copies in two different geographic locations, you might as well do it on two different cloud vendor see have the richer subset of applications and better availability. >> So for people who say date is a lock inspect for cloud. It's kind of right if unless they use WANdisco because in a sense, and because you know what really moves with it. I mean, your data's Did you stay there? Yeah, that's kind of common sense. It's not so much technical locket, so there's no real technical lockets. More operational lock and correct with data, if you don't wantto. But if you're afraid of lock in, you go with the WANdisco. That's live data. Multi cloud is that >> that was live data multi cloud on. Does this new ability to actually have active data sets that are available in different cloud bender locations? >> Well, that's a killer app right there. How do you feel? You must You must feel pretty good. You know, you and I have talked many times. Yes, but this's like you been waiting for this moment. This is actually really wide here in a k a cloud. I was a big data problem. Which only getting bigger, exactly. Replication is now the transport between clouds for anti lock. And this is the Holy Grail for home when >> it is the Holy Grail for the industrial. We've been talking about it for years now, and we feel completely redeemed. Now we feel that the industry has gotten to the point back. They understand what we've talked about. I feel very excited, the custom attraction we're seeing on watching our customers light of when we describe the attributes we bring, It's >> exciting and just the risk management alone is a hedge. I mean, if I'm a if I'm someone in the cyber security challenges alone on data, you've got data sovereignty, compliance. Never mind the productivity piece of it, which is pretty amazing. So you guys are changing the data equation. >> Indeed, R R No most excited customers are CEOs because mitigating risk from things like cyber security. As you point out, you may have a breach in one cloud vendor. You can turn that off and use your replica in the other cloud vendor side instantly. Those are comfort. You do not get that other solutions. >> So world having a love fest here. I love the whole multi cloud data. No anti lock. And I think that's a killer feature. Think we'll sell that baby? I'm going to say, OK, that's all good, but I'm going to get you on this one. Security. So no one saw security yet. So if you saw that, then you pretty much got it all. So tell me the securities. Just >> so I'll start by saying, right. Our biggest customer base is the financial industry, banking in companies insurance company's health care. There is no industry in the world that's more security conscious than the banking. And does the government the comment? Perhaps I would. I mean, the banks are really security >> conscious, Their money's money, >> money is money. And and they have, ah, judicially responsibility both governments and to their to their customers. So we've catered to these customers for upwards off a decade. Now, every technical decision we make has security. Ask one of the focus items on DH >> years. A good un security. You >> feel's way insecurity when minute comes to date. Yes. >> Encryption. Is that what this is? It's >> encrypted on the wire. We support all on this data at rest encryption schemes. We support all the the the soup and the cloud vendor security mechanisms. We have a cross cloud product, so the security problems are multiplied and we take care of each of those specifically. So you can be confident that your data secure >> and wire speed security, no overhead involved, >> no overhead involved at all. It's not measurable. >> So well, congratulations on where you guys are a lot more work to do. You guys going to staff? So you hiring a lot of people talk about the talent you're hiring real quick because, you know large skin attracting large scale talent is also one indicator. Yeah, the successful opportunity. I see, the more I think the positioning is phenomenal. Congratulations absent about the hiring, >> as you know, as as David mentioned. A few minutes ago, we hired Joel from IBM for our marketing a department. He cmo wonderful. Higher. We've got Ronchi, who's from the University of Denver. I left the head of that computer science department to come work for us. Another amazing guy. Terrific background. We've got shocked me. Who's another column? UT Austin, phD. He's running engineering for us. We're so pleased to be able to hire talent at this level. As as you well know, it's the people who make these jobs interesting and products interesting. We are. So what are >> some of the things that those guys say when they when they get into really exposed. I mean, why would someone with somewhat what would take someone to quit their ten year professor job at a university, which is pretty much retirement to engage in a growing opportunity? What's the What do they say? >> So the single I mean that you'll find in all of this is very complex, unique technology that has bean refined on it's on the verge of exploding toe, probably something ten to one hundred times the size it is today. People see that when dish when we show them the value ofthe what we've got on the market, that we're taking this too. I'm just getting excited. >> Well, congratulations. You guys have certainly worked hard. Has been great to watch the entrepreneurial journey of getting into that growth stream and just the winds that you're back all that hard work into technologies. Phenomenal again. Multi cloud data not worrying about where your data is is going to give people some East and rest in the other rest of night. Well, because that's the number one of the number one was besides security absolutely Jagane Sundar CTO chief technology officer of WANdisco here inside the CUBE in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(regal music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris And welcome to another Cube conversation from our beautiful studios here in Palo Alto, California. Got another great guest today, Jagane Sundar is the CTO of WANdisco Jagane, welcome back to the Cube. >> Good morning, Peter. >> So, Jagane, I want to talk about something that I want to talk about. And I want you to help explicate for our clients what this actually means. So there's two topics that I want to discuss. We've done extensive research in both of them, and one is this notion that we call plastic infrastructure. And the other one, related, is something we call networks of data. Let's start with networks of data because I think that that's perhaps foundational for plastic infrastructure. If we look back at the history of computing, we've seen increasing decentralization of data. Yet today many people talk about data gravity and how the Cloud is going to bring all data into the Cloud. Our belief, however, is that there's a relationship between where data is located and the actions that have to be taken. And data locality has a technical reality to it. We think we're going to see more distribution of data, but in a way that nonetheless allows us to federate. To bring that data into structures that nonetheless can ensure that the data is valuable wherever it needs to be. When you think of the notion of networks of data, what does that make you think about? >> That's a very interesting concept, Peter. When you consider the Cloud, and you talk about S3 for example and buckets of objects, people automatically assume that it's a global storage system for objects. But if you scratch a little deeper under the surface you'll find that each bucket is located in one region. If you want it available in other regions you've got to set up something called cross-region replication, which replicates in an eventual consistent fashion. It may or may not get there in time. So even in the Cloud storage systems, there is a notion of locality of data. It's something that you have to pay attention to. Now you hit the nail on the head when you said networks of data. What does that mean? Where does the data go? How it is used. Our own platform, the Fusion platform for replication of data is a strongly consistent platform which helps you conform to legal requirements and locality of data and many such things. It was built with such a thing in mind. Of course, we didn't quite call it that way, but I like your way of describing it. >> So as we think then about where this is, the idea is, 40 years ago, ARPANET allowed us to create networks of devices in a relatively open application-oriented way. And the web allowed us to create networks of pages of content. But again, that content was highly stylized. More recently social media's allowed us great networks of identities. All very important stuff. Now as we start talking about digital business and the fact that we want to be able to rearrange our data assets very quickly in response to new business opportunities whether it's customer experience or operational-oriented, this notion of networks of data allows us to think about the approach to doing that, so that we can have the data being in service to existing business opportunities, new business opportunities, and even available for future activities. So we're talking about creating networks out of these data sources, but as you said, to do that properly, we need to worry about consistency, we need to worry about cost. The platform for doing this, Fusion is a good one, it's going to require over time, however we think, some additional types of capabilities. The ability to understand patterns of data usage, the ability to stage data in advance and predictably, et cetera. Where do you think this goes as we start conceiving of networks of data as a fundamental value proposition for technology and business? >> Sure, one of the first things that occurs to me when you talk about a network of data, if you consider that as parallel to a network of computers, you don't have a notion of things like read-only computers whereas read-write computers. That's just silly. You want all computers to be roughly equal in the world. If you have a network of servers, and a network of computers, any of them can read. Any of them can write, and any of them can store. Now our Fusion platform brings about that capability to your definition of a network of data. What we call live data is the ability for you to store replicas of the data in different data centers around the world with the ability to write to any of those locations. If one of the locations happens to go down, it's a non-event. You can continue writing and reading from the other locations. That truly makes the first step towards building this network of data that you're talking about feasible. >> But I want to build on that notion a little bit because we are seeing increased specialization for example, AI, or GPUs. >> Sure. >> AI-specific processors, so even though we are still looking forward to general purpose nonetheless we see some degree of specialization. But let me also take that notion of live data and say I expect that we're going to see something similar. So for example, the same data set can be applied to multiple different classes of applications where each application may take advantage of underlying hardware advantages. But you don't have a restriction on how you deploy it built into the data. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely. Our Fusion platform includes the capability to replicate across Cloud vendors. You can replicate your storage between Amazon S3 and Azure Blob store. Now this is interesting because suddenly, you may discover that Redshift is great for certain applications while Azure SQLDW is better for others. We give you the freedom to invent new applications based on what location is best suited for that purpose. You've taken this concept of network of data, you've applied a consistent replication platform, now you have the ability to build applications in different worlds, in completely different worlds. And that's very interesting to us because if we look at data as the primary asset of any company, consider a company like Netflix, their data and the way they manage their data is the most important thing to that company. We bring the capability to distribute that data across different Cloud vendors, different storage systems, and run different applications. Perhaps you have a GPU heavy Cloud that maybe a GPU vendor offers. Replicate your data into that Cloud, and run your AI applications against that particular replica. We give you truly the freedom to invent new applications for your purpose. >> But very importantly, you are also providing, and I think this is essential, a certainty that there's consistency no matter how you do it. And I think that's the basis of the whole, the Paxos algorithms you guys are using. >> Exactly. The fundamental fact is this. Data scientists hate to deal with outdated data. Because all the work they're doing may be for no use if the data that they're applying it to is outdated, invalid, or partially consistent. We give you guarantees that the data is constantly updated, live data, it's completely consistent. If you ask the same question of two replicas of your data, you will get exactly the same answer. There is no other product in the industry today that can offer that guarantee. And that's important for our customers. >> Now building on the foundation, we're going to have to add some additional things to it. So pattern recognition, ML inside the tool. Is that on the drawing board? And I don't want you to go too far in the future, but is that kind of the future that you see too? >> We are a platform company with an excellent plug-in API. And one of the uses of our plug-in API, I'll give you a simple example, we have banking customers and they need to prevent credit card numbers from flying over the wire under certain circumstances. Our plug-in API enables them to do that. Applying an ML intelligence program into the plug-in API, again, a very simple development effort to do that. We are facilitating such capabilities. We expect third-party developers. We already have a host of third-party developers and companies building to our plug-in API. We expect that to be the vehicle for this. We won't claim expertise in ML, but there are plenty of companies that will do that on our platform. >> All right, so that leads to the second set of questions that I wanted to ask you about. We've defined what we call plastic infrastructure as a future for the industry. And to make sense of that, what we've done is we've said let's take a look at three phases of infrastructure, not based on the nature of the hardware, but based on the fundamental capabilities of the infrastructure. Static infrastructure is when we took an application, we wired it to a particular class of infrastructure. New load hits it, often you broke the infrastructure. Elastic infrastructure is the ability to be able to take a set of workloads and have it vary up and down, so that you can consume more and release the infrastructure so it has a kind of a rubber orientation. You hit it with a new load, it will deform for as long as you need it to, then it snaps back into shape. So you've predictability about what your costs are. We think that increasingly digital business is going to have to think about plastic infrastructure. The ability to very rapidly have the infrastructure deform in response to new loads, but persist that new shape, that new structure in response to how the load has impacted the business if in fact that is a source of value for the business. >> Sure. >> What do you think about that notion of plastic infrastructure? >> I love the way you describe it. In our own internal terminology we have this notion of live data and freedom to invent. What you've described is exactly that. The plastic infrastructure matches exactly with our notion of freedom to invent. Once you've solved the problem of making your data consistently available in different Clouds, different regions, different data centers, the next step of course is the freedom to invent new applications. You're going to throw experimental things at it. You're going to find that there are specific business intelligence that you can draw from this by virtue of a new application. Use it to make some critical decisions, improve profitability perhaps. That results in what you describe as plastic infrastructure. I really love that description by the way. Because we've gone from, the Cloud brought us plastic infrastructure, we've replicated, we've built a system that enables innovation and invention of new ideas. That's plastic infrastructure. I really like the idea that you're proposing. >> So as you think about this concept of plastic infrastructure, obviously there's a lot of changes that're going to take place in the industry. But Fusion in particular, by providing consistency, by increasing the availability, more importantly even the delivery of data where it's required facilitates at that data level, that notion of plasticity. >> Absolutely. The notion that you can throw brand new applications at it in a Cloud vendor of your choice, the fact that we can replicate across different Clouds is important for plastic infrastructure. Perhaps there are certain applications that work better in one Cloud versus the other. You definitely want to try it out that. And if that results in some real valuable applications, continue running it. So your definition that elastic becomes plastic infrastructure matches perfectly with that. We love this notion that we take the CIO's problems of mundane data management away and introduce the capability to invent and innovate in their space. >> So let me give you a very, or let me ask you a very practical, simple question. Historically, the back-up and restore people, and the application development people didn't spend a lot of time with each other, and that has created some tension. Are we now because of our ability to do this live data, are we able to bring those two worlds more closely together so that developers can now think about building increasingly complex, increasingly rich applications? And at the same time ensure that the data that they're building and testing with is in fact very close to the live data that they're actually going to use. >> Absolutely. We do bridge that gap. We enabled application developers to think of more complex, more sophisticated applications without actually worrying about the availability or the consistency of data. And the IT administrators and the CIO run operations that need to deliver that, have the confidence that they can in fact deliver it with the levels of consistency and availability that they need. >> So I'm going to give you the last word in this. I talked about a fair amount now, about this notion of networks of data, and infrastructure plasticity, where do you think this kind of matures over the course of the next four or five years? And what's your peer CTOs of large businesses that are thinking about these challenges of data management be focusing on? >> So the first thing that you have to acknowledge is that people need to stop thinking about machines and servers, and consider this as infrastructure that they acquire from different Cloud vendors. Different Cloud vendors because in fact there is going to be a few, a handful of good Cloud vendors that'll give you different capabilities. Once you get to that conclusion, you need your data available in all of these different Cloud vendors perhaps on your on-prem location as well, with strong consistency. Our platform enables you to do that. Once you get to that point, you have the freedom to build new applications, build business-critical systems that can depend on the consistency and availability of data. That is your definition of plasticity and networks of data. I truly like that. >> Yeah, and so we, great, great summary. We would say that we would agree with you, that increasing with the CIO, or the CDO, whoever it's going to be, has to focus on how do I increase returns on my business's data, and to do that they need to start thinking differently about their data, about their data assets, both now and in the future. Very, very important stuff. Jagane, thank you very much for being on the Cube. >> Thank you, Peter. >> And once again, I'm Peter Burris, and this has been a Cube conversation with Jagane Sundar, CTO of WANdisco. Thanks again. (regal music)

(intense orchestral music) >> Hi I'm Peter Burris, welcome to another CUBEConversation. Today we've got a special guest from WANdisco, Jagane Sundar, who's the CTO, Jagane, welcome to theCUBE again! >> Thanks Peter, happy to be here! >> So Jagane, we've got a lot to talk about today, WANdisco's doing a lot of new things, but clearly the industry is, itself, in the midst of a relatively important evolution. Now we at Wikibon and SiliconANGLE have been calling it the transformation to digital business. Everybody talks about this, but we've been pretty specific, we think that it boils down to how a company uses data as an asset, and the degree to which it's institutionalizing, or re-institutionalizing work around those assets. How does WANdisco see this big transformation that we're in the midst of right now? >> So, you're exactly right, businesses are transforming from traditional means to a digital based business, and the most important thing about that is the data. WANdisco is at the forefront of making your data available for your innovation. We start off with the basic use-cases, disaster recovery, that's a traditional problem that people have half-solved in many different ways, but we have the ability to solve that problem, take you to the next stage, which is what we call live data, where you don't worry about the availability or the location of your data anymore. Finally, we take you from that live data platform to a place where you can invent with your data, the freedom to invent phase of our--of what we call. Now, that's what you're calling the digital transformation and there's great synergy between our two terminologies, that's an important aspect here. >> So let me impact that a little bit, if I can. So the core notion is: that every business has to start acknowledging that data is something more than the exhaust that comes out of applications, it really is a core data asset. So let's start with this notion of backup and restore, or disaster recovery, the historical orientation is: I have these very expensive assets, typically in the form of hardware, or maybe applications, and I have to ensure that I can back those assets up. So backup restore used to be back up a device, backup a volume, backup whatever else it might be, and now it's moved to more of a backup of a virtual machine. I think we're talking about something different when we talk about your approach to backup and restore we're really talking about backing up data assets, do I have that right? >> That is correct. You have gone from a place where you are backing up PC's and Macintosh's and cellphones, to a place where the digital assets of your company, that are useful analytics, are far more important. Now, a simple backup, where you take the contents in one data center, push it to another data center, are a half-solution to the problem. What we've come up with is this notion called live data. You have multiple data centers, some of them you own, they're on premise, some of them are Cloud vendor data centers, they definitely reside in different parts of the world. Your data also is generated in different parts of the world, now all of this data goes into this data system, this platform that we've built for you, and it's available under all circumstances. If a region of a Cloud vendor goes down or if your own data center goes down, that's a non-event, because that data is available in other data centers around the world. This gives you the flexibility to treat this as a live data platform. You can write data where you want, you can read and run analytics wherever you want. You've gone from backing up PC's and phones, to actually using your digital assets in a manner such that you can make critical business decisions based on that. Imagine that insurance company that's making-- underwriting policies based on this digital data. If the data's not available, you've got a full halt on the business, that's not acceptable. If the data is not available because a specific data center went down, you can't call a full-stop to your business, you've got to make it available. Those are simple examples of how digital transformation is happening, and regular backup and DR are really inadequate to fuel your digital transformation. >> In fact, we like to think, we're advising our clients, that as they think about digital transformation, the role that data's playing, a digital business is not just backing up and restoring or sustaining or avoiding disasters associated with the data, they're really talking about backing up and restoring their entire business. That's kind of what we mean when we talk about DR in the digital business sense, disaster recovery, or backup and recovery, restore, in a digital business sense. And as you said, this notion of live data increases our ability to do that, but partly that requires a second kind of a step. By that I mean, most people think about storage, they think about where data's located in terms of persisting the data. When we talk about this new approach, we're talking about ensuring that we can deliver the data. Restore takes on more importance than backup than it has before, would you agree with that? That really talking about live data is really about being able to restore data wherever it's needed. >> It's an interesting new approach where we don't really define a primary and a backup. One of the important things about our Paxos-based replication system is that each location, or each instance, replica of your data, is exactly equal. So if you have a West Coast data center, and an East Coast data center, and a Midwest data center, and your West Coast data center happens to go down, none of the activities that you perform on your data will stop, you can continue writing your data to your Midwest and your East Coast data center, you continue writing and reading, running your applications against this data set. Now there wasn't a definition that the West Coast is primary and East Coast is backup. When a disaster strikes, we will cut over to the backup, we'll start using that, when the primary comes back, now we have to reconcile it, that's the traditional way of doing things, and it brings about some really bad attributes. Such as you need to have all your data pumped into one data center, that's counter to our philosophy. We believe that live data is where each of these replicas is equal, we build a platform for you where you can write to any of these, you can run your analytics against any of those. Once you get past that mental hurdle, what you've got is the freedom to innovate. You can look at it and go: I've got my data available everywhere, I can write to it, I can read from it, what can I do with this data? How can I quickly iterate so I can make more interesting business decisions, more relevant business decisions that will result in better business, profits and revenue. This interesting outcome is because you're now, not concerned about the availability of data or the primary, backup, and failover and failback, all those disappear from your radar. >> So let me build on that a little bit too, Jagane. So the way we would describe that is that a digital business, most have those data assets, those crucial data assets available, so that they can be delivered to applications and new activities, so we think in terms, what we call data zones, where the idea, you take a look at what your digital business value proposition is, what activities are essential to delivering on that value proposition, and then, whether or not the data is in a zone approximate to that activity, so that activity can actually be executed. So that means, from a physical standpoint, it needs to be there, from a legal standpoint, from a intellectual property control, from cost, but also from a consistency standpoint, you don't want dramatically different behaviors in your business just because the data that's over there is not consistent with the data that's over here, that's kind of what you guys are looking at. Now, ultimately that means, going out a little bit, but ultimately that means that this notion of deploying data so it serves your business now, has to also include a futures orientation. That we want to choose technologies that give us high value options on data futures as well. Is that what you mean by effectively, freedom to invent? >> It's definitely one aspect of our definition of freedom to invent. We are focused fully on complying with some of these requirements that you talked about. Regions of data, for example, there are parts of the world where you cannot take the data from that part of the world outside but often you need to do analytics in a global manner, such that if you detect a flaw or a problem that is surfaced by data in one part of the world, the chances are very good that that'll apply to this restricted zone as well. You want to be able to apply your analytics against that. Critical business decisions may need to be made, yet you cannot export that data out of that country, we facilitate such capabilities. So we've gone from a simpler primary backup type of system to a live data platform. And finally, we've given you the freedom to invent because you can now take a look at it and go I can start building applications that are in the critical business path because I'm confident of the availability of my data, the fact that we comply with all regulatory consilience things like aging out data after a certain number of months or days, we can help you do that really well with our platform. So yes, in fact the notion that data resides in different pools, in different areas, replicated consistently, available under all circumstances, enables business to think about their data in a completely different manner, up-level it. >> And satisfying physical, legal, intellectual property, and cost realities. >> Exactly. Those are all consilience that need to be addressed by this replication platform. >> So as we think about where customers are going with this clearly they've started around this backup and restore, but it sounds like you guys are helping them today conceive of what it means to do backup and restore and analytics, that is a particularly sensitive issue for a lot of businesses right now that are trying to marry together data science and good practices associated with IT. How is that playing out, can you give us some insight into how customers are doing a better job of that? >> Sure. A global auto maker that has acquired our software can do replication started off by using it for two very simple use-cases. They were looking at migrating from an older version of a data system to a newer version, we enabled them to do that without downtime, that was a clear win for us. The second thing they wanted to do was enable a disaster recovery type scenario. Once we got to that stage, we showed them how easy it was for them to continue writing to what was originally notionally the backup system, that made about twice as much compute resources available for them, because their original notion was that the backup system would just be a backup system, nothing could be done on it. Light bulbs went off in our customers head, they looked at it and went I can continue writing here, even if my primary goes down, there's no real notion of a backup, there's no real notion of failover and failback, that opened their minds to a whole bunch of new ideas. Now, they are in a position to build some business critical applications. Gone are the days when an analytics thing meant you run a report once a week and send it off to the CIO, it's not that anymore, it's up to minute accuracy, people are making things like insurance companies making underwriting decisions, and healthcare companies tracking the spread of diseases based on up to the minute information that they're getting. These are not weekly once analytics applications anymore, these are truly businesses that are based on their digital data. >> So a fundamental promise of live data is that wherever the data is, the application is live? >> Jagane: Yes, absolutely. >> Alright one more thing I think we want to talk about very quickly Jagane is there is some differences in mindset that a CIO has to apply here, again the CIO used to look at the assets and say machines, the hardware, yes, and maybe the applications, and now, to really see the value of this, they have to think of this in terms of data being the asset. How are your customers starting to evolve that notion so that they see the problem differently? >> So, I think the first thing that happened was the Cloud, we can't take credit for that, of course, but it helped our costs a great deal because people looked at infrastructure with a completely different viewpoint. They don't look at it as I'm going to buy a server with this size to run my Oracle, that mentality went away, and people started looking at, I have to store my data here and I can run an elastic application on this, I can grow our resources on demand and surrender those resources back to the Cloud when I don't need that. We take that to the next step, we enable them to have consistent replicas of their data across multiple regions of Cloud vendors, across different Cloud vendors. Suddenly they have the ability to do things like, I can run this analytics on Redshift here in Amazon really well, I can use this same data to run it on Azure SQL DW here, which is a better application for this specific use-case. We've opened up the possibilities to them, such that, they don't worry about what data they're going to use, how much resources they're going to get, resources are truly elastic now, you can buy and surrender resources, as per your demand, so it's opening up possibilities that they never had before. >> Excellent! Jagane Sundar, CTO of WANdisco, talking about live data, and the journey the customers are on to make themselves more fully digital businesses. >> Thanks, Peter. >> Once again this is Peter Burris from theCUBE, CUBEConversation with Jagane Sundar of WANdisco. (intense orchestral music)

>> Voiceover: Live from the Moscone Center, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit San Francisco 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of AWS Summit here in San Francisco. Happy to welcome back to the program Jagane Sundar, who is the CTO of WANdisco. Jagane, great to see you, how have you been? >> Well, been great Stu, thanks for having me. >> All right so, every show we go to now, data really is at the center of it, you know. I'm an infrastructure guy, you know, data is so much of the discussion here, here in the cloud in the keynotes, they were talking about it. IOT of course, data is so much involved in it. We've watched WANdisco from the days that we were talking about big data. Now it's you know, there's AI, there's ML. Data's involved, but tell us what is WANdisco's position in the marketplace today, and the updated role on data? >> So, we have this notion, this brand new industry segment called live data. Now this is more than just itty-bitty data or big data, in fact this is cloud-scale data located in multiple regions around the world and changing all the time. So you have East Coast data centers with data, West Coast data centers with data, European data centers with data, all of this is changing at the same time. Yet, your need for analytics and business intelligence based on that is across the board. You want your analytics to be consistent with the data from all these locations. That, in a sense, is the live data problem. >> Okay, I think I understand it but, you know, we're not talking about like, in the storage world there was like hot data, what's hot and cold data. And we talked about real-time data for streaming data and everything like that. But how do you compare and contrast, you know, you said global in scope, talked about multi-region, really talking distributed. From an architectural standpoint, what's enabling that to be kind of the discussion today? Is it the likes of Amazon and their global reach? And where does WANdisco fit into the picture? >> So Amazon's clearly a factor in this. The fact that you can start up a virtual machine in any part of the world in a matter of minutes and have data accessible to that VM in an instant changes the business of globally accessible data. You're not simply talking about a primary data center and a disaster recovery data center anymore. You have multiple data centers, the data's changing in all those places, and you want analytics on all of the data, not part of the data, not on the primary data center, how do you accomplish that, that's the challenge. >> Yeah, so drill into it a little bit for us. Is this a replication technology? Is this just a service that I can spin up? When you say live, can I turn it off? How do those kind of, when I think about all the cloud dynamics and levers? >> So it is indeed based on active-active replication, using a mathematically strong algorithm called Paxos. In a minute, I'll contrast that with other replication technologies, but the essence of this is that by using this replication technology as a service, so if you are going up to Amazon's web services and you're purchasing some analytics engine, be it Hive or Redshift or any analytics engine, and you want to have that be accessible from multiple data centers, be available in the face of data center or entire region failure, and the data should be accessible, then you go with our live data platform. >> Yeah so, we want you to compare and contrast. What I think about, you know, I hear active-active, speed of light's always a challenge. You know globally, you have inconsistency it's challenging, there's things like Google Spanner out there to look at those. You know, how does this fit compared to the way we've thought of things like replication and globally distributed systems in the past? >> Interesting question. So, ours great for analytics applications, but something like Google Spanner is more like a MySQL database replacement that runs into multiple data centers. We don't cater to that and database-transaction type of applications. We cater to analytics applications of batch, very fast streaming applications, enterprise data warehouse-type analytics applications, for all of those. Now if you take a look inside and see what kind of replication technology will be used, you'll find that we're better than the other two different types. There are two different types of existing replication technologies. One is log shipping. The traditional Oracle, GoldenGate-type, ship the log, once the change is made to the primary. The second is, take a snapshot and copy differences between snapshots. Both have their deficiencies. Snapshot of course is time-based, and it happens once in a while. You'll be lucky if you can get one day RTO with those sorts of things. Also, there's an interesting anecdote that comes to mind when I say that because the Hadoop folks in their HTFS, implemented a version of snapshot and snapdiff. The unfortunate truth is that it was engineered such that, if you have a lot of changes happening, the snapshot and snapdiff code might consume too much memory and bring down your NameNode. That's undesirable, now your backup facility just brought down your main data capability. So snapshot has its deficiencies. Log shipping is always active/passive. Contrast that with our technology of live data, whereat you can have multiple data centers filled with data. You can write your data to any of these data centers. It makes for a much more capable system. >> Okay, can you explain, how does this fit with AWS and can it live in multi-clouds, what about on-premises, the whole you know, multi and hybrid cloud discussion? >> Interesting, so the answer is yes. It can live in multiple regions within the same cloud, multiple reasons within different clouds. It'll also bridge data that exists on your on-prem, Hadoop or other big data systems, or object store systems within Cloud, S3 or Azure, or any of the BLOB stores available in the cloud. And when I say this, I mean in a live data fashion. That means you can write to your on-prem storage, you can also write to your cloud buckets at the same time. We'll keep it consistent and replicated. >> Yeah, what are you hearing from customers when it comes to where their data lives? I know last time I interviewed David Richards, your CEO, he said the data lakes really used to be on premises, now there's a massive shift moving to the public clouds. Is that continuing, what's kind of the breakdown, what are you hearing from customers? >> So I cannot name a single customer of ours who is not thinking about the cloud. Every one of them has a presence on premise. They're looking to grow in the cloud. On-prem does not appear to be on a growth path for them. They're looking at growing in the cloud, they're looking at bursting into the cloud, and they're almost all looking at multi-cloud as well. That's been our experience. >> At the beginning of the conversation we talked about data. How are customers doing you know, exploiting and leveraging or making sure that they aren't having data become a liability for them? >> So there are so many interesting use cases I'd love to talk about, but the one that jumps out at me is a major auto manufacturer. Telematics data coming in from a huge number, hundreds of thousands, of cars on the road. They chose to use our technology because they can feed their West Coast car telematics into their West Coast data center, while simultaneously writing East Coast car data into the East Coast data center. We do the replication, we build the live data platform for them, they run their standard analytics applications, be it Hadoop-sourced or some other analytics applications, they get consistent answers. Whether you run the analytics application on the East Coast or the West Coast, you will get the same exact answer. That is very valuable because if you are doing things like fault detection, you really don't want spurious detection because the data on the West Coast was not quite consistent and your analytics application was led astray. That's a great example. We also have another example with a top three bank that has a regulatory concern where they need to operate out of their backup data centers, so-called backup data center, once every three months or so. Now with live data, there is no notion of active data center and backup data center. All data centers are active, so this particular regulatory requirement is extremely simple for them to implement. They just run their queries on one of the other data centers and prove to the regulators that their data is indeed live. I could go on and on about a number of these. We also have a top two retailer who has got such a volume data that they cannot manage it in one Hadoop cluster. They use our technology to create the live data data link. >> One of the challenges always, customers love the idea of global but governance, compliance, things like GDPR pop up. Does that play into your world? Or is that a bit outside of what WANdisco sees? >> It actually turns out to be an important consideration for us because if you think about it, when we replicate the data flows through us. So we can be very careful about not replicating data that is not supposed to be replicated. We can also be very careful about making sure that the data is available in multiple regions within the same country if that is the requirement. So GDPR does play a big role in the reason why many of our customers, particularly in the financial industry, end up purchasing our software. >> Okay, so this new term live data, are there any other partners of yours that are involved in this? As always, you want like a bit of an ecosystem to help build out a wave. >> So our most important partners are the cloud vendors. And they're multi-region by nature. There is no idea of a single data center or a single region cloud, so Microsoft, Amazon with AWS, these are all important partners of ours, and they're promoting our live data platform as part of their strategy of building huge hybrid data lakes. >> All right, Jagane give us a little view looking forward. What should we expect to see with live data and WANdisco through the rest of 2018? >> Looking forward, we expect to see our footprint grow in terms with dealing with a variety of applications, all the way from batch, pig scripts that used to run once a day to hive that's maybe once every 15 minutes to data warehouses that are almost instant and queryable by human beings, to streaming data that pours things into Kafka. We see the whole footprint of analytics databases growing. We see cross-capability meaning perhaps an Amazon Redshift to an Azure or SQL EDW replication. Those things are very interesting to us, to our customers, because some of them have strengths in certain areas and other have strengths in other areas. Customers want to exploit both of those. So we see us as being the glue for all world-scale analytics applications. >> All right well, Jagane, I appreciate you sharing with us everything that's happening at WANdisco. This new idea of live data, we look forward to catching up with you and the team in the future and hearing more about the customers and everything on there. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from AWS Summit here in San Francisco. I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas It's theCube covering AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Welcome back to our live coverage. theCube here at AWS re:Invent 2017 Our fifth year covering Amazon Web Services and their massive growth. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lisa Martin. Here our next guest is CTO of WANdisco, Jugane Sundar. Welcome back to theCube. >> Thank you John. >> You guys are everywhere. WANdisco around the table and all these deals so you guys have been doing extremely well with (indistinct talking) property. What's new? You got some news? >> Yes we do, we recently announced integration with Amazon's AWS Snowball device which gives you the ability to do migration of on-premises workload into the Cloud without down time, and then the end result is a hybrid cloud environment that you can have an active for right environment on both sides. That's a unique capability, nobody else can do that today. >> What does it mean for AWS and their customers 'cause they're very customer focused. What are you guys bringing to the table? >> We bring a whole lot of big data workloads, analytics workloads, IoT workloads into their Cloud. And the beauty of the cloud is that you may have a 20 node cluster on-premises but you can run analytics with a 1000 nodes up in the Cloud on demand and pay just for that use. We think it's a very powerful value proposition. >> Where are you seeing the most traction? We've talking about the massive growth at 18 billion dollar annual runway that fit AWS and Andy's conversation with you John the other day said we haven't gotten that big on startups alone. So even some of the things like the advertising that AWS is now starting to do suggests they're going up the stack to the Enterprise and to the Sea Suites. Where are you guys seeing the most traction with AWS? Is it in the Enterprise space, is it in the start up space, both? >> So somewhat because of our route, what we're finding is that the large majority of Big Data customers and analytics customers from the last two, three years are all considering some form of addition of a cloud to their environment. If it's not a wholesale migration, it's a hybrid environment. It's bursting out into the cloud type of use case and what you're finding is that growth of on-premise Big Data and analytics systems is slowing down because once you get to the Cloud, the plethora of tools you have, the facilities that the scale brings to you is just unmatched. That's the trend we really see in the market. >> We've seen a lot of people go and use it in the marketplace. Juniper Networks for instance, are seeing some activity at the network. Who would have thought a network player is gonna to pick it in the Cloud, but this is what industrial-strength cloud looks like. You guys have the active active. Where does that fit in for the customers who wanna leverage the apps, and don't wanna worry about the networks? >> Exactly, the traditional model of thinking was use the Cloud for back up. You have your on-premise stuff. The cheapest way to back it up is into the Cloud. But that's really just scratching the tip of the iceberg. Once you put your data up in the Cloud, you have the ability to have it strongly consistently replicated then you can do amazing things from the Cloud. You can do a whole new analytics system. Perhaps you want to experiment with Spark in the Cloud and have it on on high on-premise that works very well. Now that both sides are actively writeable, you can create partitions of your data that are dynamically generated written to both sides. These are things that people did not consider. Once they stumble upon it, it just opens their mind to a whole new way of operating. >> Business Park, I've heard some rumors and rumblings in the developer community here that they're running Spark on Lando. People always hacking with new stuff. So Lando server list I think is coming down. How does that relate to some of things that are driving WANdisco's, how do you relate to that? Does that help you? Does that hurt you guys? >> It helps us, the way we look at it. We're all about strong replication of storage. Lando is no storage, you talk to the underlying storage of some kind. It's S3, it's EBS volumes whatever. So long as the storage comes through our system. Any growth, any simple easy way for applications to be written is hugely positive for us. >> What are the start ups out there? We've seen a lot of start ups really missed the mark. They misfired on the Cloud and you seen some stars that have played it well. They've got in the tornadoes as we say. In fact, Geoffrey Moore, I think is rewriting his book Inside the Tornado, which is a management paradigm. But there really seems to be a new business model. You guys are like ever green at WANdisco because you're unique (indistinct talking) property. How are you guys working with that business model and what are some of the things you're seeing with start ups and companies who are trying to play the cloud but are misfiring? >> Right so WANdisco as you know stands for Wide Area Network Distributed Computing, and the Cloud is like a huge bonus to it. It's all about the Wide Area Network. We are now consolidating a bunch of work in the cloud, but guess what? It's gonna go back to going to go into the edge in some way 'cause the edges are getting smarter. You need replication between those. We see a lot of that coming up in the next two, three, five years. IoT workloads and use cases all involve somewhat of edge smart computing. We replicate between those really well. >> Lisa, we always talk about the trend is your friend. In your case, Cloud is your friend. >> Indeed, it is. The Cloud is all about wide area network computing and we are the ones who can really replicate-- >> How does a customer know what to do when it comes down to getting involved with WANdisco? It's not obvious. Spell it out, why do they need you guys? When do you get involved? What specific things should be red flags to a potential customer or a customer who says I'm gonna go in on the Cloud. Unpack that. >> Let me give you a simple example. We look at Amazon S3, it's a Cloud service storage. But do you know that it's actually on a per region basis. When you create a bucket to put objects into the bucket, it's located in one region. If you want it replicated elsewhere, they have cross-region replication which is an eventually consistent replication system that doesn't give you the consistent results that you want. If you have such a situation employing our technology immediately gives you consistent replication. Be it Cloud regions, Cloud to Cloud or on-premise to Cloud. The end result is the minute you step into replication across the land, every solution out there doesn't do it consistently and that's our core-- >> And that's your unique IP. >> Indeed, it is. >> Okay so I'm seeing Amazon racing their roll out regions. They got one coming in China, one in the Middle East. That's a big part of the strategy. Does that help you or what does that do? >> Absolutely it helps us a great deal, partly because customers now do not look at their applications as a single region applications. That doesn't fly anymore. The the notion that my banking app cannot work because a data center went down is just not acceptable in the modern world anymore. The fact that we depend so much on the services means they need to be up all the time. More regions, more data replication. That's why we step in. >> So that sounds like a lot of symbiosis here. You talk about S3 and replication challenges. So tell us how WANdisco is actually helping AWS. That's one example but help you us understand the symbiosis with your relationship with AWS. >> The best example I can give you is a large travel service company in the internet. They had to Adobe infrastructure that was growing out of control. They wanted to manage costs by moving some workloads to Amazon but didn't really know where to start, because you can't do such a thing as take a copy of the data, ship it off on a Snowball into the Cloud and tell the users of that data, stop writing to it now. It's gonna be available in the Cloud, a week, 10 days from now. Then you can start writing again. That's just not acceptable. This is live data problem. The problem here is that you need to be able to ship out your data on Snowballs, continue to write the on-premise storage. When it shows up in the Cloud, start writing that. Both are consistently replicated, you have a proper hybrid Cloud environment. So this was a great bonus to them. As for AWS, they watched this and they look at it as a easy way to move vast majority of data from on-premise big Data analytics systems. >> Have they been a fuel to your fire, in a sense that they've been on this incredible acceleration of their innovation and as Andy Joci said many times to you John. It's speed and customer focus. So how has their accelerated pace of innovation helped fuel WANdisco's so that like you were saying the unique value. How have they really ignited that? >> So they started off with just plain Snowball two years ago. Last year they announced Snowball Edge which is a pretty improved device. Now they have in the works, capability to do some compute on those boxes. That's very interesting to us. Now our services can decide on the Snowball, It arrives at a customer site. He plugs it in, turns it on instant replication capabilities Those are fueled both by Amazon's drive and extreme speed and our own capabilities. So Amazon is a wonderful partner for us partly because their charge to us innovation is quite amazing. >> Snowball, snow mobile, it's gonna be a white Christmas for you guys. Business is good. >> Business is great. >> Okay, final question. What's the conversations you're having here this year, share with us some of the quick conversations you're having in the hallways, meetings, Amazon got execs, partners. >> So most of the conversation are about moving workloads from on-premise into the Cloud. I personally am very interested in IoT use cases because I see the volume of data and the ability for us to do some interesting replications at being critical. That's where our focus is right now. >> Jugane Sundar, CTO of WANdisco. Big announcement, partnership with Amazon Web Services and Snowball replication active active. Great solution for replication. You got regions across regions. Check out WANdisco. Thanks for coming by, great to see you again. Congratulations on all your success. This is theCube, live coverage day one. It's coming down to an end. The halls open, we got two more days of packed two Cubes. Stay tuned for more, we got some great guest coming up, stay with us. (uptempo techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Midtown Manhattan, it's theCUBE, covering Big Data, New York City, 2017. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. Live in Manhattan, this is theCUBE's coverage of our fifth year doing Big Data, NYC; eighth year covering Hadoop World, which is now evolved into Strata Data which is right around the corner. We're doing that in conjunction with that event. This is, again, where we have the thought leaders, we have the experts, we have the entrepreneurs and CEOs come in, of course. The who's who in tech. And my next two guests, is Jagane Sundar, CUBE alumni, who was on yesterday. CTO of WANdisco, one of the hottest companies, most valuable companies in the space for their unique IP, and not a lot of people know what they're doing. So congratulations on that. But you're here with one of your partners, a company I've heard of, called Microsoft, also doing extremely well with Azure Cloud. We've got Pranav Rastogi, who's the program manager of Microsoft Cloud Azure. You guys have an event going on as well at Microsoft Ignite which has been creating a lot of buzz this year again. As usual, they have a good show, but this year the Cloud certainly has taken front and center. Welcome to theCUBE, and good to see you again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Alright, so talk about the partnership. You guys, Jagane deals with all the Cloud guys. You're here with Microsoft. What's going on with Microsoft? Obviously they've been, if you look at the stock price. From 20-something to a complete changeover of the leadership of Satya Nadella. The company has mobilized. The Cloud has got traction, putting a dent in the universe. Certainly, Amazon feels a little bit of pain there. But, in general, a lot more work to do. What are you guys doing together? Share the relationship. >> So, we just announced a product that's a one-click deployment in the Microsoft Azure Cloud, off WANdisco's Fusion Replication technology. So, if you got some data assets, Hadoop or Cloud object stores on-premise and you want to create a hybrid or a Cloud environment with Azure and Picture, ours is the only way of doing Active/Active. >> Active/Active. And there is some stuff out there that's looking like Active/Active. DataPlane by Hortonworks. But it's fully not Active/Active. We talked a little bit about that yesterday. >> Jagane: Yes. >> Microsoft, you guys, what's interesting about these guys besides the Active/Active? It's a unique thing. It's an ingredient for you guys. >> Yes, the interesting thing for us is, the biggest problem that we think customers have for big data perspective is, if you look at the landscape of the ecosystem in terms of open source projects that are available it's very hard to a: figure out How do I use this software?, b: How do I install it? And, so what we have done is created an experience in Azure HDInsight where you can discover these applications, within the context of your cluster and you can install these applications by one-click install. Which installs the application, configures it, and then you're good to go. We think that this is going to sort of increase the productivity of users trying to get sense out of big data. The key challenges we think customers have today is setting up some sort of hybrid environment between how do you connect your on premise data to move it to the Cloud, and there are different use cases that you can have you can move parts of the data and you can do experiment easily in the Cloud. So what we've done is, we've enabled WANdisco as an application on our HDInsight application platform, where customers can install it using a single-click deploy connected with the data that's sitting on-prem, use the Active/Active feature to have both these environments running simultaneously and they're in sync. >> So one benefits the one-click thing, that's on your side, right? You guys are enabling that. So, okay, I get that. That's totally cool. We'll get to that in a second. I want to kind of drill down on that. But, what's the benefit to the customers, that you guys are having? So, I'm a customer, I one-click, I want some WANdisco Active/Active. Why am I doing it? What does the Cloud change? How does your Cloud change from that experience? >> One example that you can think about is going to change is in an on-premise environment you have a cluster running, but you're kind of limited on what you can do with the cluster, because you've already setup the number of nodes and the workloads your running is fairly finite, but what's happening in reality and today is, lots of users, especially in the machine learning space, and AI space, and the analytic space are using a lot of open source libraries and technologies and they're using it on top of Hadoop, and they're using it on top of Spark. However, in experimenting with these technologies is hard on-prem because it's a locked environment. So we believe, with the Cloud, especially with it offering WANdisco and HDInsight, once you move the data you can start spinning up clusters, you can start installing more open source libraries, experiment, and you can shut down the clusters when you're done. So it's going to increase your efficiency, it's going to allow you to experiment faster, and it's going to reduce for cost as well, because you don't have to have the cluster running all the time and once you are done with your experimentation, then you can decide which way do you want to go. So, it's going to remove the-- >> Jagane, what's your experience with Azure? A lot of people have been, some people have been critical, and rightfully so. You guys are moving as fast you can. You can only go as fast you can, but the success of the Cloud has been phenomenal. You guys have done a great job with the Cloud. Got to give you props on that. Your customers are benefiting, or Microsoft's customers are benefiting. How's the relationship? Are you getting more customers through these guys? Are you bringing customers from on-prem to Cloud? How's the customer flow going? >> Almost all of our customers who have on-prem instances of Hadoop are considering Cloud in one form or the other. Different Clouds have different strengths, as they've found-- >> Interviewer: And different technologies. >> Indeed. And Azure's strengths appear to be the HDInsight piece of it and as Pranam just mentioned, the cool thing is, you can replicate into the Cloud, start up a 50 node Spark cluster today to run a query, that may return results to you really fast. Now, remember this is data that you can write to both in the Cloud and on-premise. It's kept consistent by our technology, or tomorrow you may find that somebody tells you, Hive with the new Tez enhancements is faster, sure, spin up a hundred node Hive cluster in the Cloud, HDInsight supports that really well. You're getting consistent data and your queries will respond much faster than your on-premise. >> We've had Oliver Chu on, before with Hortonworks obviously they're partnering there. HDInsight's been getting a lot of traction lately. Where's that going? We've seen some good buzz on that. Good people talking about it. What's the latest update on your end? >> HDInsight is doing really good. The customers love the ease of creating a cluster using just a few clicks and the benefits that customers get, clusters are optimized for certain scenarios. So if you're doing data science, you can create a Spark cluster, install open source libraries. We have Microsoft R Server running on Spark, which is a unique offering to Microsoft, which lots of customers have appreciated. You also have streaming scenarios that you can do using open source technologies, like we have Apache Kafka running on a stack, which is becoming very popular from an ingestion perspective. Folks have been-- >> Has the Kupernetes craze come down to your group yet? Has it trickled down? It seems to be going crazy. You hired an amazing person from Google, Brendan Burns, we've interviewed before. He's part of the original Kubernetes spec he now works for Microsoft. What's the buzz on the Kubernetes container world there? >> In general, Microsoft Azure has seen great benefits out of it. We are seeing lots of traction in that space. From my role in particular, I focus more on the HDInsight big data space, which is kind of outside of what we do with Kubernetes' work. >> And your relationship is going strong with WANdisco? >> Pranav: Yes. >> Right. >> We just launched this offering just about yesterday is what we announced and we're looking forward to getting customers on to the stack. >> That's awesome. What's your take on the industry right now? Obviously, the partnerships are becoming clearer as people can see there's (mumbles). You're starting to see the notion of infrastructure and services are changing. More and more people want services and then you got the classic infrastructure which looks like it's going to be hybrid. That's pretty clear, we see that. Services versus infrastructure, how should customers think about how they architect their environments? So they can take advantage of the Active/Active and also have a robust, clean, not a lot of re-skilling going on, but more of a good organization from a personnel standpoint, but yet get to a hybrid architecture? >> So, it depends, the Cloud gives you lots of options to meet the customers where they are. Different customers have different kinds of requirements. Customers who have specialized, some of their applications will probably want to go more of an infrastructure route, but customers also love to have some of the past benefits where, you know, I have a service running where I don't have to worry about the infrastructure, how dispatching happen, how does OS updates happen, how does maintenance happen. They want to sort of rely on the Microsoft Azure Cloud provider to take care of it. So that they can focus on their application specific logic, or business specific logic, or analytical workloads, and worry about optimizing those parts of the application because that is their core-- >> It's been great.I want to get your thoughts real quick. Share some color. What's going on inside Microsoft? Obviously, open source has become a really big part of the culture, even just at Ignite. More Linux news is coming. You guys have been involved in Linux. Obviously, open source with Azure, ton of stuff, I know is built in the Microsoft Cloud on open source. You're contributing now as to Kubernetes, as I mentioned earlier. Seems to be a good cultural shift at Microsoft. What's the vibe on the open source internally at Microsoft? Can you share, just some anecdotal insight into what's the vibe like inside, around open source? >> The vibe has increased quite a lot around open source. You rightly mentioned, just recently we've announced a SQL server on Linux as well, at the Ignite conference. You can also deploy a SQL server on a docker container, which is quite revolutionary if you think about how forward we have come. Open source is so pervasive it's almost used in a lot of these projects. Microsoft employees are contributing back to open source projects in terms of, bug fixes, feature requests, or documentation updates. It's a very, very active community and by and large I think customers are benefiting a lot, because there are so many folks working together on open source projects and making them successful and especially around the Azure stack, we also ensure that you can run these open source workloads lively in the Cloud. From an enterprise perspective, you get the best of both worlds. You get the latest innovations happening in open source, plus the reliability of the managed platform that Azure provides at an enterprise scale. >> So again, obviously Microsoft partnership is huge, all the Clouds as well. Where do you want to take the relationship with Microsoft? What happens next? You guys are just going to continue to do business, you're like expecting the one-click's nice, I have some questions on that. What happens next? >> So, I see our partnership becoming deeper. We see the value that HDInsight brings to the ecosystem and all of that value is captured by the data. At the end of the day, if you have stale data, if you have data that you can't rely on the applications are useless. So we see ourselves getting more and more deeply embedded in the system. We see of ourselves as an essential part of the data strategy for Azure. >> Yeah, we see continuous integration as a development concept, continuous analytics as a term, that's being kicked around. We were talking yesterday about, here in theCUBE, real time, I want some data real time and IT goes back, "Here it is, it's real time!" No, but the data's three weeks old. I mean, real time (laughs) is a word that doesn't mean I got to see it really fast, low latency response. Well, that's not the data I want. I meant the data in real time, not you giving me a real time query. So again, this brings up a mind shift in terms of the new way to do business in the Cloud and hybrid. It's changing the game. As customers scratch their heads and try to figure out how to make their organizations more DevOps oriented, what do you guys see for advice for those managers, who are really getting behind it, really want to make change, who kind of have to herd the cats a little bit, and maybe break out security and put it in it's own group? Or you come and say, okay IT guys we're going to change into our operating model, even on-prem, we'll use some burst in to the Cloud, Azure's got 365 on there, lot of coolness developing. What's the advice for the mindset of the change agents out there that are going to do the transformation? >> My advice would be, if you've done the same thing by hand over two times, it's time you automated it, but-- >> Interviewer: Two times?! >> Two times. >> No three rule? Three strikes you're out? >> You're saying two, contrarian. >> That's a careful statement. Because, if you try automating something that you've never actually tried by hand, that's a disaster as well. A couple times, so you know how it's supposed to work. >> Interviewer: Get a good groove on it. >> Right, then you optimize, you automate, and then you turn the knobs. So, you try a hundred node cluster, maybe that's going to be faster. Maybe after a certain point, you don't get any improvements, so you know how to-- >> So take some baby steps, and one easy way to do it is to automate something that you've done. >> Jagane: Yes, exactly. >> That's almost risk-free, relatively speaking. Thoughts, advice to change agents out there. This is your industry hat on. You can take your Microsoft hat off. >> Baby steps. So you start small, you get familiar with the environment and your toolsets are provided so that you get a consistent experience on what you were doing on-prem and sort of in a hybrid space. And the whole idea is as you get more comfortable the benefits of the Cloud far outweigh any sort of cultural changes that need to happen-- >> Guys, thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it. Thoughts on the Big Data NYC this week? What do you think? >> I think it's a conference that has a lot of Cloud hanging over it and people are scratching their heads. Including vendors, customers, everybody scratching their head, but there is a lot of Cloud in this conference, although this is not a Cloud conference. >> Yeah, they're trying to make it an AI conference. A lot of AI watching certainly we're seeing that everywhere. But again, nothing wrong hyping up AI. It's good for society. It really is cool, but still, that's talking about baby steps, AI is still not there. It seems like, AI from when I got my CS degree in the 80's, not a lot innovation, well machine learning is getting better, but, a lot more way to go on AI. Don't you think? >> Yes, you know a few of the announcements we've made in this week is all about making it easier for developers to get started with AI and machine learning and our whole hope is with these investments that we've done and Azure machine learning improvements and the companion app and the workbench, allows you to get started very easily with AI and machine learning models and you can apply and build these models, do a CICD process and deploy these models and be more effective in the space. >> Yeah and also the tooling market has kind of gotten out of control. We were just joking the other day, that there's this tool shed mindset where everything is in the tool shed and people bought a hammer and turned it into a lawnmower. So it's like, you got to be careful which tools you have. Think about a platform. Think holistically, but if you take the baby steps and implement it, certainly it's there. My personal opinion, I think the Cloud is the equalizer. Cloud can bring compute power that changes what a tool was built for. Even, go back six years, the tools that were out there even six years ago are completely changed by the impact of unlimited, potentially unlimited capacity horsepower. So, okay that resets a little bit. You agree? >> I do. I totally agree. >> Who wins, who loses on the reset? >> The Cloud is an equalizer, but there is a mindset shift that goes with that those who can adapt to the mindset shift, will win. Those who can not and are still clinging to their old practices will have a hard time. >> Yeah, it's exciting. If you're still reinventing Hadoop from 2011 then, probably not good shape right now. >> Jagane: Not a good place to be. >> Using Hadoop is great for Bash, but you can't make that be a lawnmower. That's my opinion. Okay, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it (laughs) You're smiling, you got something that you, no? >> Pranav: (laughs) Thank you so much for that comment. >> Yeah, tool sheds are out there, be careful. Guys do your job. Congratulations on your partnership, appreciate it. This is theCUBE, live in New York. More after this short break. We'll be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from midtown Manhattan, it's theCUBE, covering BigData New York City 2017, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Okay welcome back everyone here live in New York City. This is theCUBE special presentation of our annual event with theCUBE and Wikibon Research called BigData NYC, it's our own event that we have every year, celebrating what's going on in the big data world now. It's evolving to all data, cloud applications, AI, you name it, it's happening. In the enterprise, the impact is huge for developers, the impact is huge. I'm John Furrier, cohost of the theCUBE, with Peter Burris, Head of Research, SiliconANGLE Media and General Manager of Wikibon Research. Our next guest is Jagane Sundar, who's the CTO of WANdisco, Cube alumni, great to see you again as usual here on theCUBE. >> Thank you John, thank you Peter, it's great to be back on theCUBE. >> So we've been talking the big data for many years, certainly with you guys, and it's been a great evolution. I don't want to get into the whole backstory and history, we covered that before, but right now is a really, really important time, we see you know the hurricanes come through, we see the floods in Texas, we've seen Florida, and Puerto Rico now on the main conversation. You're seeing it, you're seeing disasters happen. Disaster recovery's been the low hanging fruit for you guys, and we talked about this when New York City got flooded years and years ago. This is a huge issue for IT, because they have to have disaster recovery. But now it's moving more beyond just disaster recovery. It's cloud. What's the update from WANdisco? You guys have a unique perspective on this. >> Yes, absolutely. So we have capabilities to replicate between the cloud and Hadoop multi data centers across geos, so disasters are not a problem for us. And we have some unique technologies we use. One of the things we do is we can replicate in an active-active mode between different cloud vendors, between cloud and on-prem Hadoop, and we are the only game in town. Nobody else can do that. >> So okay let me just stop right there. When you say the only game in town I got a little skeptic here. Are you saying that nobody does active-active replication at all? >> That is exactly what I'm saying. We had some wonderful announcements from Hortonworks, they have a great product called the Dataplane. But if you dig deep, you'll find that it's actually an active-passive architecture, because to do active-active, you need this capability called the Paxos algorithm for resolving conflict. That's a very hard algorithm to implement. We have over 10 years' experience in that. That's what gives us our ability to do this active-active replication, between clouds, between on-prem and cloud. >> All right so just to take that a step further, I know we're having a CTO conversation, but the classic cliche is skate to where the puck is going to be. So you kind of didn't just decide one morning you're going to be the active-active for cloud. You kind of backed into this. You know the world spun in your direction, the puck came to you guys. Is that a fair statement? >> That is a very fair statement. We've always known there's tremendous value in this technology we own, and with the global infrastructure trends, we knew that this was coming. It wasn't called the cloud when we started out, but that's exactly what it is now, and we're benefiting from it. >> And the cloud is just a data center, it's just, you don't own it. (mumbles) Peter, what's your reaction to this? Because when he says only game in town, implies some scarcity. >> Well, WANdisco has a patent, and it actually is very interesting technology, if I can summarize very quickly. You do continuous replication based on writes that are performed against the database, so that you can have two writers and two separate databases and you guarantee that they will be synchronized at some point in time because you guarantee that the writing of the logs and the messaging to both locations >> Absolutely. >> in order, which is a big issue. You guys put a stamp on the stuff, and it actually writes to the different locations with order guaranteed, and that's not the way most replication software works. >> Yes, that's exactly right. That's very hard to do, and that's the only way for you to allow your clients in different data centers to write to the same data store, whether it's a database, a Hadoop folder, whether it's a bucket in a cloud object store, it doesn't matter. The core fact remains, the Paxos algorithm is the only way for you to do active-active replication, and ours is the only Paxos implementation that can work over the >> John: And that's patented by you guys? >> Yes, it's patented. >> And so someone to replicate that, they'd have to essentially reverse engineer and have a little twist on it to not get around the patents. Are you licensing the technology or are you guys hoarding it for yourselves? >> We have different ways of engaging with partners. We are very reasonable with that, and we work with several powerful partners >> So you partner with the technology. >> Yes. >> But the key thing, John, in answer to your question is that it's unassailable. I mean there's no argument, that is, companies move more towards a digital way of doing things, largely driven by what customers want, your data becomes more of an asset. As you data becomes more of an asset, you make money by using that data in more places, more applications and more times. That is possible with data, but the problem you end up with consistency issues, and for certain applications, it's not an issue, you're basically writing, or if you're basically reading data it's not an issue. But the minute that you're trying to write on behalf of a particular business event or a particular value proposition, then now you have a challenge, you are limited in how you can do it unless you have this kind of a technology. And so this notion of continuous replication in a world that's going to become increasingly dependent upon data, data that is increasingly distributed, data that you want to ensure has common governance and policy in place, technologies like WANdisco provides are going to be increasingly important to the overall way that a business organizes itself, institutes its work and makes sure it takes care of its data assets. >> Okay, so my next question then, thanks for the clarification, it's good input there and thanks for summarizing it like that, 'cause I couldn't have done that. But when we last talked, I always was enamored by the fact that you guys have the data center replication thing down. I always saw that as a great thing for you guys. Okay, I get that, that's an on-premise situation, you have active-active, good for disaster recovery, lot of use cases, people should be beating down your door 'cause you have a better mousetrap, I get that. Now how does that translate to the cloud? So take me through why the cloud now fits nicely with that same paradigm. >> So, I mean, these are industry trends, right. What we've found is that the cloud object stores are very, very cost effective and efficient, so customers are moving towards that. They're using their Hadoop applications but on cloud object stores. Now it's trivial for us to add plugins that enable us to replicate between a cloud object store on one side, and a Hadoop on the other side. It could also be another cloud object store from a different cloud provider on the other side. Once you have that capability, now customers are freed from lock-in from either a cloud vendor or a Hadoop vendor, and they love that, they're looking at it as another way to leverage their data assets. And we enable them to do that without fear of lock-in from any of these vendors. >> So on the cloud side, the regions have always been a big thing. So we've heard Amazon have a region down here, and there was fix it. We saw at VMworld push their VMware solution to only one western region. What's the geo landscape look like in the cloud? Does that relate to anything in your tech? >> So yes, it does relate, and one of the things that people forget is that when you create an Amazon S3 bucket, for example, you specify a region. Well, but this is the cloud, isn't it worldwide? Turns out that object store actually resides in one region, and you can use some shaky technologies like cross-region replication to eventually get the data to the other region. >> Peter: Which just boosts the prices you pay. >> Yes, not just boost the price. >> Well they're trying to save price but then they're exposed on reliability. >> Reliability, exactly. You don't know when the data's going to be there, there are no guarantees. What we offer is, take your cloud storage, but we'll guarantee that we can replicate it in a synchronous fashion to another region. Could be the same provider, could be another provider. That gives tremendous benefits to the customers. >> So you actually have a guarantee when you go to customers, say with an SLA guarantee? Do you back it up with like money back, what's the guarantee? >> So the guarantees are, you know we are willing to back it up with contracts and such like, and our customers put us through rigorous testing procedures, naturally. But we stand up to every one of those. We can scale and maintain the consistency guarantees that they need for modern businesses. >> Okay, so take me through the benefits. Who wants this? Because you can almost get kind of sucked into the complexities of it, and the nuances of cloud and everything as Peter laid out, it's pretty complex even as he simplified it. Who buys this? (laughs) I mean, who's the guy, is it the IT department, is it the ops guy, is it the facilities, who... >> So we sell to the IT departments, and they absolutely love the technology. But to go back to your initial statement, we have all these disasters happening, you know, hopefully people are all doing reasonably okay at the end of these horrible disasters, but if you're an enterprise of any size, it doesn't have to be a big enterprise, you cannot go back to your users or customers and say that because of a hurricane you cannot have access to your data. That's sometimes legally not allowed, and other times it's just suicide for a business >> And HPE in Houston, it's a huge plant down there. >> Jagane: Indeed. >> They got hit hard. >> Yep, in those sort of circumstances, you want to make sure that your data is available in multiple data centers spread throughout the world, and we give you that capability. >> Okay, what are some of the successes? Let's talk through now, obviously you've got the technology, I get that. Where's the stakes in the ground? Who's adopting it? I know you do a lot of biz dev deals. I don't know if they're actually OEM-type deals, or they're just licensing deals. Take us through to where your successes are with this technology. >> So, biz dev wise, we have a mix of OEM deals and licenses and co-selling agreements. The strong ones are all OEMs, of course. We have great partnerships with IBM, Amazon, Microsoft, just wonderful partnerships. The actual end customers, we started off selling mostly to the financial industry because they have a legal mandate, so they were the first to look into this sort of a thing. But now we've expanded into automobile companies. A lot of the auto companies are generating vast amounts of data from their cars, and you can't push all that data into a single data center, that's just not reasonable. You want to push that data into a single data store that's distributed across the world in just wherever the car is closest to. We offer that capability that nobody else can, so that we've got big auto manufacturers signed up, we've got big retailers signed up for exactly the same capability. You cannot imagine ingesting all that data into a single location. You want this replicated across, you want it available no matter what happens to any single region or a data center. So we've got tremendous success in retail, banking, and a lot of this is through partnerships again. >> Well congratulations, I got to ask, you know, what's new with you guys? Obviously you have success with the active-active. We'll dig into the Hortonworks things to check your comment around them not having it, so we'll certainly look with the Dataplane, which we like. We interviewed Rob Bearden. Love the announcement, but they don't have the active-active, we're going to document that, and get that on the record. But you guys are doing well. What's new here, what's in New York, what are some of your wins, can you just give a quick update on what's going on at WANdisco? >> Okay, so quick recap, we love the Hortonworks Dataplane as well. We think that we can build value into that ecosystem by building a plugin for them. And we love the whole technology. I have wonderful friends there as well. As for our own company, we see all of our, a lot of our business coming from cloud and hybrid environments. It's just the reality of the situation. You had, you know, 20 years ago, you had NFS, which was the great appender of all storage, but turned out to be very expensive, and you had 10 years, seven years ago you had HDFS come along, and that appended the cost model of NFS and SANs, which those industries were still working their way through. And now we have cloud object stores, which have appended the HDFS model, it's much more cost-efficient to operate using cloud object stores. So we will be there, we have replication products for that. >> John: And you're in the major clouds, you in Azure? >> Yes, we are in Azure. >> Google? >> Jagane: Yes, absolutely. >> AWS? >> AWS, of course. >> Oracle? >> Oracle, of course. >> So you got all the top four companies. >> We're in all of them. >> All right, so here's the next question is, >> And you're also in IBM stuff too. >> Yes, we're built tightly into IBM >> So you've got a pretty strong legacy >> And a monopoly. >> On the mainframe. >> Like the fiber channel of replication. (John and Jagane laugh) That was a bad analogy. I mean it's like... Well, I mean fiber channel has only limited suppliers 'cause they have unique technology, it was highly important. >> But the basic proposition is look, any customer that wants to ensure that a particular data source is going to be available in a distributed way, and you're going to have some degree of consistency, is going to look at this as an option. >> Yes. >> Well you guys certainly had a great team under your leadership, it's got great tech. The final question I have for you here is, you know, we've had many conversations about the industry, we like to pontificate, I certainly like to speculate, but now we have eight years of history now in the big data world, we look back, you know, we're doing our own event in New York City, you know, thanks to great support from you guys and other great friends in the community. Appreciate everyone out there supporting theCUBE, that's awesome. But the world's changed. So I got to ask you, you're a student of the industry, I know that and knowing you personally. What's been the success formula that keeps the winners around today, and what do people need to do going forward? 'Cause we've seen the train wreck, we've seen the dead bodies in the industry, we've kind of seen what's happened, there've been some survivors. Why did the current list of characters and companies survive, and what's the winning formula in your opinion to stay relevant as big data grows in a huge way from IoT to AI cloud and everything in between? >> I'll quote Stephen Hawking in this. Intelligence is the capability to adapt to changes. That's what keeps industries, that's what keeps companies, that what keeps executives around. If you can adapt to change, if you can see things coming, and adapt your core values, your core technology to that, you can offer customers a value proposition that's going to last a long time. >> And in a big data space, what is that adaptive key focus, what should they be focused on? >> I think at this point, it's extracting information from this volume of data, whether you use machine learning in the modern days, or whether it was simple hive queries, that's the value proposition, and making sure the data's available everywhere so you can do that processing on it, that remains the strength. >> So the whole concept of digital business suggests that increasingly we're going to see our assets rendered in some form as data. >> Yes. >> And we want to be able to ensure that that data is able to be where it needs to be when it needs to be there for any number of reasons. It's a very, very interesting world we're entering into. >> Peter, I think you have a good grasp on this, and I love the narrative of programming the world in real time. What's the phrase you use? It's real time but it's programming the world... Programming the real world. >> Yeah, programming the real world. >> That's a huge, that means something completely, it's not a tech, it's a not a speed or feed. >> Well the way we think about it, is that we look at IoT as a big information transducer, where information's in one form, and then you turn it into another form to do different kinds of work. And that big data's a crucial feature in how you take data from one form and turn it into another form so that it can perform work. But then you have to be able to turn that around and have it perform work back in the real world. There's a lot of new development, a lot of new technology that's coming on to help us do that. But any way you look at it, we're going to have to move data with some degree of consistency, we're still going to have to worry about making sure that if our policy says that that action needs to take place there, and that action needs to take place there, that it actually happens the way we want it to, and that's going to require a whole raft of new technologies. We're just at the very beginning of this. >> And active-active, things like active-active in what you're talking about really is about value creation. >> Well the thing that makes active-active interesting is, again, borrowing from your terms, it's a new term to both of us, I think, today. I like it actually. But the thing that makes it interesting is the idea that you can have a source here that is writing things, and you can have a source over there that are writing things, and as a consequence, you can nonetheless look at a distributed database and keep it consistent. >> Consistent, yeah. >> And that is a major, major challenge that's going to become increasingly a fundamental feature of our digital business as well. >> It's an enabling technology for the value creation and you call it work. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Transformation of work. Jagane, congratulations on the active-active, and WANdiscos's technology and all your deals you're doing, got all the cloud locked up. What's next? Well you going to lock up the edge? You're going to lock up the edge too, the cloud. >> We do like this notion of the edge cloud and all the intermediate steps. We think that replicating data between those systems or running consistent compute across those systems is an interesting problem for us to solve. We've got all the ingredients to solve that problem. We will be on that. >> Jagane Sundar, CTO of WANdisco, back on theCUBE, bringing it down. New tech, whole new generation of modern apps and infrastructure happening in distributed and decentralized networks. Of course theCUBE's got it covered for you, and more live coverage here in New York City for BigData NYC, our annual event, theCUBE and Wikibon here in Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from New York, it's theCUBE covering BigData New York City 2016, brought to you by headline sponsors Cisco, IBM, Nvidia, and our ecosystem sponsors. Now here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Peter Burris. >> Welcome back to theCUBE everybody. This is BigData NYC and we are covering wall to wall, we've been here since Monday evening. We we're with Nvidia, Nvidia talking about deep learning, machine learning. Yesterday we had a full slate, we had eight data scientists up on stage yesterday and then we covered the IBM event last night, the rooftop party. Saw David Richards there, hanging out with him, and wall to wall today and tomorrow. Jagane Sundar is here, he is the CTO of WANdisco, great to see you again Jagane. >> Thanks for having me Dave. >> You're welcome. It's been a while since you and I sat down and I know you were on theCUBE recently at Oracle Headquarters, which I was happy to see you there and see the deals that are going on you've got good stuff going on with IBM, good stuff going on with Oracle, the Cloud is eating the world as we sort of predicted and knew but everybody wanted to put their head in the sand but you guys had to accommodate that didn't you. >> We did and if you remember us from a few years ago we were very very interested in the Hadoop space but along the journey we realized that our replication platform is actually much bigger than Hadoop. And the Cloud is just a manifestation of that vision. We had this ability to replicate data, strongly consistent, across wide area networks in different data centers and across storage systems so you can go from HDFS to a Cloud storage system like S3 or Azure Wasabi and we will do it with strong consistency. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than actually providing just replication for the Hadoop platform. So we expanded beyond our initial Hadoop Forex and now we're big in the Cloud. We replicate data to many Cloud providers and customers use us for many use cases like disaster recovery, migration, active/active, Cloud bursting, all of those interesting use cases. >> So any time I get you on theCUBE I like to refresh the 101 for me and for the audience that may not be familiar with it but you say strongly consistent, versus you hear the term eventual consistency, >> Jugane: Correct. >> What's the difference, why is the latter inadequate for the applications that you're serving. >> Right so when people say eventually consistent, what they don't remember is that eventually consistent systems often have different data in the different replicas and once in a while, once every five minutes or 15 minutes, they have to run an anti-entropy process to reconcile the differences and entropy is the total randomness right if you go back to your physics, high school physics. What you're really talking about is having random data and once every 10 minutes making it reconcile and the reconciliation process is very messy, it's like last right winds and the notion of time becomes important, how do you keep time accurate between those. Companies like Google have wonderful infrastructure where they have GPS and atomic clocks and they can do a better job but for the regular enterprise user that's a hard problem so often you get wrong data that's reconciled. So asking the same query you may get different answers and your different replicas. That's a bad sign, you want it consistent enough so you can guarantee results. >> Dave: And you've done this with math, right? >> Exactly, our basis is an algorithm called Paxos, which was invented by a gentleman called Leslie Lamport back in '89 but it took many decades for that algorithm to be widely understood. Our own chief scientists spent over a decade developing those, adding enhancements to make it run over the wide area network. The end result is a strongly consistent system, mathematically proven, that runs over the wide area network and it's completely resistant to failure of all sorts. >> That allows you to sort of create the same type of availability, data consistency as you mentioned Google with the atomic clocks, Spanner I presume, is this fascinating, I mean when the paper came out I was, my eyes were bleeding reading it and but that's the type of capability that you're able to bring to enterprises right? >> That's exactly right, we can bring similar capabilities across diverse networks. You can have regular networking gear, time synchronized by NTP, out in the Cloud, things are running in a virtual machine where time adrift most of the time, people don't realize that VMs are pretty bad at keeping time and all you get up in the Cloud is VMS. Across all those enviroments we can give you strongly consistent replication at the same quality that Google does with their hardware. So that's the value that we bring to the Fortune 500. >> So increasingly enterprises are recognizing that data has an, I don't want to say intrinsic value but data is a source of value in context all by itself. Independent of any hardware, independent of any software. That it's something that needs to be taken care of and you guys have an approach for ensuring that important aspects of it are better taken care of. Not the least of which, is that you can provide an option to a customer who may make a bad technology choice one day to make a better technology choice the next day and not be too worried about dead ending themselves. I'm reminded of the old days when somebody who was negotiating an IBM main frame deal would put an Amdahl coffee cup in front of IBM or put an Oracle coffee cup in front of SAP. Do you find customers metaphorically putting a WANdisco coffee cup in front of those different options and say these guys are ensuring that our data remains ours? >> Customers are a lot more sophisticated now, the scenarios that you pointed out are very very funny but what customers come to us for is the exact same thing, the way they ask it is, I want to move to Cloud X, but I want to make sure that I can also run on Cloud Y and I want to do it seamlessly without any downtime on my on-prem applications that are running. We can give them that. Not only are they building a disaster recovery environment, often they're experimenting with multiple Clouds at the same time and may the better Cloud win. That puts a lot of competition and pressure on the actual Cloud applications they're trying. That's a manifestation in modern Cloud terms of the coffee cup competitor in the face that you just pointed out. Very funny but this how customers are doing it these days. >> So are you using or are they starting to, obviously you are able to replicate with high fidelity with strong fidelity, strong consistency, large volumes of data. Are you starting to see customers, based on that capability actually starting to redesign how they set up their technology plant? >> Absolutely, when customers were talking about hybrid Cloud which was pretty well hyped a year or so ago, they basically had some data on-prem and some other data in the Cloud and they were doing stuff but what we brought to them was the ability to have the same data both on-prem and in the Cloud, maybe you had a weekly analytics job that took a lot of resources. You'd burst that out into the Cloud and run it up there, move the result of that analytics job back on-prem. You'd have it with strong consistency. The result is that true hybrid Cloud is enabled when only when you have the same exact data available in all of your Cloud locations. We're the only company that can provide that so we've got customers that are expanding their Cloud options because of the data consistency we offer. >> And those Cloud options are obviously are increasing >> Jugane: They are. >> But there's also a recognition that it's as we gain more experience with Cloud, that different workloads are better than others as we move up there. Now Oracle with some of their announcements last week may start to push the envelope on that a little bit but as you think about where the need for moving large volumes of data with high, with strong consistency what types of applications do you think people are focusing on? Is it mainly big data or are there other application styles or job types that you think are going to become increasingly important? >> So we've got much more than big data, one of the big sources of leads for us now is our capability to migrate netapp filers up into the Cloud and that has suddenly become very important because an example I'd like to give is a big financial firm that has all of its binaries and applications and user data and netapp filers, the actual data is in HDFS on-prem. They're moving their binaries from the netapp up into the Cloud in a specific Cloud windows equal into the filer and the big data part of it from HDFS up into Cloud object store, we are the only platform that can deal with both in the strong consistent manner that I've talked about and we're a single replication platform so that gives them the ability to make the sort of a migration with very low risk. One of the attributes of our migration is that we do it with no downtime. You don't have to take your online, your on-prem environment offline in order to do the migration so they are doing that so we see a lot of business from that sort of migration efforts where people have data in mass filers, people have data in other non-HDFS storage systems. We're happy to migrate all of those. Our replication platform approach, which we've taken in the last year and a half or so is really paying off in that respect. >> And you couldn't do that with conventional migration techniques because it would take too long, you'd have to freeze the applications? >> A couple of things, one you'd probably have to take the applications offline, second you'd be using tools of periodic synchronization variety such as RSYNC and anybody in the devops or operations whose ever used RSYNC across the wide area network will tell you how bad that experience is. It really is a very bad experience. We've got capability to migrate netapp filer data without imposing a load on the netapp's on-prem so we can do it without pounding the crap out of the netapp's server such that they can't offer service to their existing customers. Very low impact on the network configuration, application configuration. We can go in, start the migration without downtime, maybe it takes two, three days for the data to get up over there because of mavenlink. After that is done, you can start playing with it up in the Cloud. And you can cut over seamlessly so there's so real downtime, that's the capability we've seen. >> But you've also mentioned one data type, binaries, they can't withstand error propagation. >> Jugane: Absolutely. >> And so being able to go to a customer and say you're going to have to move these a couple times over the course of the next n-months or years, as a consequence of the new technology that's now available and we can do so without error propagation is going to have a big impact on how well their IT infrastructure, their IT asset base runs in five years. >> Indeed, indeed. That's very important. Having the ability to actually start the application, having the data in a consistent and true form so you can start, for example, the data base and have it mount the actual data so you can use it up in the Cloud, those are capabilities that are very important to customers. >> So there's another application. If you think about, you tend to be more bulk, the question I'm going to ask is and at what point in time is the low threshold in terms of specific types of data movement. Here's why I'm asking. IOT data is a data source or is a use-case that has often the most stringent physical constraints possible. Time, speed of light, has an implication but also very importantly, this notion of error propagation really matters. If you go from a sensor to a gateway to another gateway to another gateway you will lose bits along the way if you're not very careful. >> Correct. >> And in a nuclear power plant, that doesn't work that way. >> Jugane: Yeah. >> Now we don't have to just look at a nuclear power plant as an example but there's increasingly industrial IOTs starting to dramatically impact not just life and death circumstances but business success or failure. What types of smaller batch use-cases do you guys find yourselves operating in, in places like IOT where this notion of error or air control strong consistency is so critical? >> So one of the most popular applications that use our replication is Spark and Spark Streaming which as you can imagine is a big part of most IOT infrastructure, we can do replication such that you ingest into the closest data center, you go from your server or your car or whatever to the closest data center, you don't have to go multiple hops. We will take care consistency from there on. What that gives you is the ability to say I have 12 data centers with my IOT infrastructure running, one data center goes down, you don't have a downtime at all. It's only the data that was generated inside the data center that's lost. All client machines connecting to that data center will simply connect to another data center, strong replication continues, this gives you the ability to ingest at very large volumes while still maintaining the consistency and IOT is a big deal for us, yes. >> We're out of time but I got a couple of last minute questions if I may. So when you integrate with IBM, Oracle, what kind of technical issues do you encounter, what kind of integration do you have to do, is it lightweight, heavyweight, middleweight? >> It's middleweight I would say. IBM is a great example, they have a deep integration with our product and some of the authentication technology they use was more advanced than what was available in open source at that time. We did a little of work, and they did a little bit of work to make that work, but other than that, it's a pretty straight forward process. The end result is that they have a number of their applications where this is a critical part of their infrastructure. >> Right, and then road map. What can you tell us about, what should we look for in the future, what kind of problems are you going to be solving? >> So we look at our platform as the best replication engine in the world. We're building an SDK, we expect custom plugins for different other applications, we expect more high-speed streaming data such as IOT data, we want to be the choice for replication. As for the plugins themselves, they're getting easier and easier to build so you'll see wide coverage from us. >> Jugane, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, always a pleasure to have you. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're welcome. Alright keep it right there everybody, we'll be back to wrap. This is theCUBE, we're live from NYC. We'll be right back. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> This past week we saw two of the Big 3 cloud providers present the latest update on their respective cloud visions, their business progress, their announcements and innovations. The content at these events had many overlapping themes, including modern cloud infrastructure at global scale, applying advanced machine intelligence, AKA AI, end-to-end data platforms, collaboration software. They talked a lot about the future of work automation. And they gave us a little taste, each company of the Metaverse Web 3.0 and much more. Despite these striking similarities, the differences between these two cloud platforms and that of AWS remains significant. With Microsoft leveraging its massive application software footprint to dominate virtually all markets and Google doing everything in its power to keep up with the frenetic pace of today's cloud innovation, which was set into motion a decade and a half ago by AWS. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the immense amount of content presented by the CEOs of Microsoft and Google Cloud at Microsoft Ignite and Google Cloud Next. We'll also quantify with ETR survey data the relative position of these two cloud giants in four key sectors: cloud IaaS, BI analytics, data platforms and collaboration software. Now one thing was clear this past week, hybrid events are the thing. Google Cloud Next took place live over a 24-hour period in six cities around the world, with the main gathering in New York City. Microsoft Ignite, which normally is attended by 30,000 people, had a smaller event in Seattle, in person with a virtual audience around the world. AWS re:Invent, of course, is much different. Yes, there's a virtual component at re:Invent, but it's all about a big live audience gathering the week after Thanksgiving, in the first week of December in Las Vegas. Regardless, Satya Nadella keynote address was prerecorded. It was highly produced and substantive. It was visionary, energetic with a strong message that Azure was a platform to allow customers to build their digital businesses. Doing more with less, which was a key theme of his. Nadella covered a lot of ground, starting with infrastructure from the compute, highlighting a collaboration with Arm-based, Ampere processors. New block storage, 60 regions, 175,000 miles of fiber cables around the world. He presented a meaningful multi-cloud message with Azure Arc to support on-prem and edge workloads, as well as of course the public cloud. And talked about confidential computing at the infrastructure level, a theme we hear from all cloud vendors. He then went deeper into the end-to-end data platform that Microsoft is building from the core data stores to analytics, to governance and the myriad tooling Microsoft offers. AI was next with a big focus on automation, AI, training models. He showed demos of machines coding and fixing code and machines automatically creating designs for creative workers and how Power Automate, Microsoft's RPA tooling, would combine with Microsoft Syntex to understand documents and provide standard ways for organizations to communicate with those documents. There was of course a big focus on Azure as developer cloud platform with GitHub Copilot as a linchpin using AI to assist coders in low-code and no-code innovations that are coming down the pipe. And another giant theme was a workforce transformation and how Microsoft is using its heritage and collaboration and productivity software to move beyond what Nadella called productivity paranoia, i.e., are remote workers doing their jobs? In a world where collaboration is built into intelligent workflows, and he even showed a glimpse of the future with AI-powered avatars and partnerships with Meta and Cisco with Teams of all firms. And finally, security with a bevy of tools from identity, endpoint, governance, et cetera, stressing a suite of tools from a single provider, i.e., Microsoft. So a couple points here. One, Microsoft is following in the footsteps of AWS with silicon advancements and didn't really emphasize that trend much except for the Ampere announcement. But it's building out cloud infrastructure at a massive scale, there is no debate about that. Its plan on data is to try and provide a somewhat more abstracted and simplified solutions, which differs a little bit from AWS's approach of the right database tool, for example, for the right job. Microsoft's automation play appears to provide simple individual productivity tools, kind of a ground up approach and make it really easy for users to drive these bottoms up initiatives. We heard from UiPath that forward five last month, a little bit of a different approach of horizontal automation, end-to-end across platforms. So quite a different play there. Microsoft's angle on workforce transformation is visionary and will continue to solidify in our view its dominant position with Teams and Microsoft 365, and it will drive cloud infrastructure consumption by default. On security as well as a cloud player, it has to have world-class security, and Azure does. There's not a lot of debate about that, but the knock on Microsoft is Patch Tuesday becomes Hack Wednesday because Microsoft releases so many patches, it's got so much Swiss cheese in its legacy estate and patching frequently, it becomes a roadmap and a trigger for hackers. Hey, patch Tuesday, these are all the exploits that you can go after so you can act before the patches are implemented. And so it's really become a problem for users. As well Microsoft is competing with many of the best-of-breed platforms like CrowdStrike and Okta, which have market momentum and appear to be more attractive horizontal plays for customers outside of just the Microsoft cloud. But again, it's Microsoft. They make it easy and very inexpensive to adopt. Now, despite the outstanding presentation by Satya Nadella, there are a couple of statements that should raise eyebrows. Here are two of them. First, as he said, Azure is the only cloud that supports all organizations and all workloads from enterprises to startups, to highly regulated industries. I had a conversation with Sarbjeet Johal about this, to make sure I wasn't just missing something and we were both surprised, somewhat, by this claim. I mean most certainly AWS supports more certifications for example, and we would think it has a reasonable case to dispute that claim. And the other statement, Nadella made, Azure is the only cloud provider enabling highly regulated industries to bring their most sensitive applications to the cloud. Now, reasonable people can debate whether AWS is there yet, but very clearly Oracle and IBM would have something to say about that statement. Now maybe it's not just, would say, "Oh, they're not real clouds, you know, they're just going to hosting in the cloud if you will." But still, when it comes to mission-critical applications, you would think Oracle is really the the leader there. Oh, and Satya also mentioned the claim that the Edge browser, the Microsoft Edge browser, no questions asked, he said, is the best browser for business. And we could see some people having some questions about that. Like isn't Edge based on Chrome? Anyway, so we just had to question these statements and challenge Microsoft to defend them because to us it's a little bit of BS and makes one wonder what else in such as awesome keynote and it was awesome, it was hyperbole. Okay, moving on to Google Cloud Next. The keynote started with Sundar Pichai doing a virtual session, he was remote, stressing the importance of Google Cloud. He mentioned that Google Cloud from its Q2 earnings was on a $25-billion annual run rate. What he didn't mention is that it's also on a 3.6 billion annual operating loss run rate based on its first half performance. Just saying. And we'll dig into that issue a little bit more later in this episode. He also stressed that the investments that Google has made to support its core business and search, like its global network of 22 subsea cables to support things like, YouTube video, great performance obviously that we all rely on, those innovations there. Innovations in BigQuery to support its search business and its threat analysis that it's always had and its AI, it's always been an AI-first company, he's stressed, that they're all leveraged by the Google Cloud Platform, GCP. This is all true by the way. Google has absolutely awesome tech and the talk, as well as his talk, Pichai, but also Kurian's was forward thinking and laid out a vision of the future. But it didn't address in our view, and I talked to Sarbjeet Johal about this as well, today's challenges to the degree that Microsoft did and we expect AWS will at re:Invent this year, it was more out there, more forward thinking, what's possible in the future, somewhat less about today's problem, so I think it's resonates less with today's enterprise players. Thomas Kurian then took over from Sundar Pichai and did a really good job of highlighting customers, and I think he has to, right? He has to say, "Look, we are in this game. We have customers, 9 out of the top 10 media firms use Google Cloud. 8 out of the top 10 manufacturers. 9 out of the top 10 retailers. Same for telecom, same for healthcare. 8 out of the top 10 retail banks." He and Sundar specifically referenced a number of companies, customers, including Avery Dennison, Groupe Renault, H&M, John Hopkins, Prudential, Minna Bank out of Japan, ANZ bank and many, many others during the session. So you know, they had some proof points and you got to give 'em props for that. Now like Microsoft, Google talked about infrastructure, they referenced training processors and regions and compute optionality and storage and how new workloads were emerging, particularly data-driven workloads in AI that required new infrastructure. He explicitly highlighted partnerships within Nvidia and Intel. I didn't see anything on Arm, which somewhat surprised me 'cause I believe Google's working on that or at least has come following in AWS's suit if you will, but maybe that's why they're not mentioning it or maybe I got to do more research there, but let's park that for a minute. But again, as we've extensively discussed in Breaking Analysis in our view when it comes to compute, AWS via its Annapurna acquisition is well ahead of the pack in this area. Arm is making its way into the enterprise, but all three companies are heavily investing in infrastructure, which is great news for customers and the ecosystem. We'll come back to that. Data and AI go hand in hand, and there was no shortage of data talk. Google didn't mention Snowflake or Databricks specifically, but it did mention, by the way, it mentioned Mongo a couple of times, but it did mention Google's, quote, Open Data cloud. Now maybe Google has used that term before, but Snowflake has been marketing the data cloud concept for a couple of years now. So that struck as a shot across the bow to one of its partners and obviously competitor, Snowflake. At BigQuery is a main centerpiece of Google's data strategy. Kurian talked about how they can take any data from any source in any format from any cloud provider with BigQuery Omni and aggregate and understand it. And with the support of Apache Iceberg and Delta and Hudi coming in the future and its open Data Cloud Alliance, they talked a lot about that. So without specifically mentioning Snowflake or Databricks, Kurian co-opted a lot of messaging from these two players, such as life and tech. Kurian also talked about Google Workspace and how it's now at 8 million users up from 6 million just two years ago. There's a lot of discussion on developer optionality and several details on tools supported and the open mantra of Google. And finally on security, Google brought out Kevin Mandian, he's a CUBE alum, extremely impressive individual who's CEO of Mandiant, a leading security service provider and consultancy that Google recently acquired for around 5.3 billion. They talked about moving from a shared responsibility model to a shared fate model, which is again, it's kind of a shot across AWS's bow, kind of shared responsibility model. It's unclear that Google will pay the same penalty if a customer doesn't live up to its portion of the shared responsibility, but we can probably assume that the customer is still going to bear the brunt of the pain, nonetheless. Mandiant is really interesting because it's a services play and Google has stated that it is not a services company, it's going to give partners in the channel plenty of room to play. So we'll see what it does with Mandiant. But Mandiant is a very strong enterprise capability and in the single most important area security. So interesting acquisition by Google. Now as well, unlike Microsoft, Google is not competing with security leaders like Okta and CrowdStrike. Rather, it's partnering aggressively with those firms and prominently putting them forth. All right. Let's get into the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft and Google are positioned in four key markets that we've mentioned before, IaaS, BI analytics, database data platforms and collaboration software. First, let's look at the IaaS cloud. ETR is just about to release its October survey, so I cannot share the that data yet. I can only show July data, but we're going to give you some directional hints throughout this conversation. This chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the data, i.e., how pervasive the platform is. That's on the horizontal axis. And we've inserted the Wikibon estimates of IaaS revenue for the companies, the Big 3. Actually the Big 4, we included Alibaba. So a couple of points in this somewhat busy data chart. First, Microsoft and AWS as always are dominant on both axes. The red dotted line there at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated spending velocity and all of the Big 3 are above the line. Now at the same time, GCP is well behind the two leaders on the horizontal axis and you can see that in the table insert as well in our revenue estimates. Now why is Azure bigger in the ETR survey when AWS is larger according to the Wikibon revenue estimates? And the answer is because Microsoft with products like 365 and Teams will often be considered by respondents in the survey as cloud by customers, so they fit into that ETR category. But in the insert data we're stripping out applications and SaaS from Microsoft and Google and we're only isolating on IaaS. The other point is when you take a look at the early October returns, you see downward pressure as signified by those dotted arrows on every name. The only exception was Dell, or Dell and IBM, which showing slightly improved momentum. So the survey data generally confirms what we know that AWS and Azure have a massive lead and strong momentum in the marketplace. But the real story is below the line. Unlike Google Cloud, which is on pace to lose well over 3 billion on an operating basis this year, AWS's operating profit is around $20 billion annually. Microsoft's Intelligent Cloud generated more than $30 billion in operating income last fiscal year. Let that sink in for a moment. Now again, that's not to say Google doesn't have traction, it does and Kurian gave some nice proof points and customer examples in his keynote presentation, but the data underscores the lead that Microsoft and AWS have on Google in cloud. And here's a breakdown of ETR's proprietary net score methodology, that vertical axis that we showed you in the previous chart. It asks customers, are you adopting the platform new? That's that lime green. Are you spending 6% or more? That's the forest green. Is you're spending flat? That's the gray. Is you're spending down 6% or worse? That's the pinkest color. Or are you replacing the platform, defecting? That's the bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score. Now one caveat here, which actually is really favorable from Microsoft, the Microsoft data that we're showing here is across the entire Microsoft portfolio. The other point is, this is July data, we'll have an update for you once ETR releases its October results. But we're talking about meaningful samples here, the ends. 620 for AWS over a thousand from Microsoft in more than 450 respondents in the survey for Google. So the real tell is replacements, that bright red. There is virtually no churn for AWS and Microsoft, but Google's churn is 5x, those two in the survey. Now 5% churn is not high, but you'd like to see three things for Google given it's smaller size. One is less churn, two is much, much higher adoption rates in the lime green. Three is a higher percentage of those spending more, the forest green. And four is a lower percentage of those spending less. And none of these conditions really applies here for Google. GCP is still not growing fast enough in our opinion, and doesn't have nearly the traction of the two leaders and that shows up in the survey data. All right, let's look at the next sector, BI analytics. Here we have that same XY dimension. Again, Microsoft dominating the picture. AWS very strong also in both axes. Tableau, very popular and respectable of course acquired by Salesforce on the vertical axis, still looking pretty good there. And again on the horizontal axis, big presence there for Tableau. And Google with Looker and its other platforms is also respectable, but it again, has some work to do. Now notice Streamlit, that's a recent Snowflake acquisition. It's strong in the vertical axis and because of Snowflake's go-to-market (indistinct), it's likely going to move to the right overtime. Grafana is also prominent in the Y axis, but a glimpse at the most recent survey data shows them slightly declining while Looker actually improves a bit. As does Cloudera, which we'll move up slightly. Again, Microsoft just blows you away, doesn't it? All right, now let's get into database and data platform. Same X Y dimensions, but now database and data warehouse. Snowflake as usual takes the top spot on the vertical axis and it is actually keeps moving to the right as well with again, Microsoft and AWS is dominant in the market, as is Oracle on the X axis, albeit it's got less spending velocity, but of course it's the database king. Google is well behind on the X axis but solidly above the 40% line on the vertical axis. Note that virtually all platforms will see pressure in the next survey due to the macro environment. Microsoft might even dip below the 40% line for the first time in a while. Lastly, let's look at the collaboration and productivity software market. This is such an important area for both Microsoft and Google. And just look at Microsoft with 365 and Teams up into the right. I mean just so impressive in ubiquitous. And we've highlighted Google. It's in the pack. It certainly is a nice base with 174 N, which I can tell you that N will rise in the next survey, which is an indication that more people are adopting. But given the investment and the tech behind it and all the AI and Google's resources, you'd really like to see Google in this space above the 40% line, given the importance of this market, of this collaboration area to Google's success and the degree to which they emphasize it in their pitch. And look, this brings up something that we've talked about before on Breaking Analysis. Google doesn't have a tech problem. This is a go-to-market and marketing challenge that Google faces and it's up against two go-to-market champs and Microsoft and AWS. And Google doesn't have the enterprise sales culture. It's trying, it's making progress, but it's like that racehorse that has all the potential in the world, but it's just missing some kind of key ingredient to put it over at the top. It's always coming in third, (chuckles) but we're watching and Google's obviously, making some investments as we shared with earlier. All right. Some final thoughts on what we learned this week and in this research: customers and partners should be thrilled that both Microsoft and Google along with AWS are spending so much money on innovation and building out global platforms. This is a gift to the industry and we should be thankful frankly because it's good for business, it's good for competitiveness and future innovation as a platform that can be built upon. Now we didn't talk much about multi-cloud, we haven't even mentioned supercloud, but both Microsoft and Google have a story that resonates with customers in cross cloud capabilities, unlike AWS at this time. But we never say never when it comes to AWS. They sometimes and oftentimes surprise you. One of the other things that Sarbjeet Johal and John Furrier and I have discussed is that each of the Big 3 is positioning to their respective strengths. AWS is the best IaaS. Microsoft is building out the kind of, quote, we-make-it-easy-for-you cloud, and Google is trying to be the open data cloud with its open-source chops and excellent tech. And that puts added pressure on Snowflake, doesn't it? You know, Thomas Kurian made some comments according to CRN, something to the effect that, we are the only company that can do the data cloud thing across clouds, which again, if I'm being honest is not really accurate. Now I haven't clarified these statements with Google and often things get misquoted, but there's little question that, as AWS has done in the past with Redshift, Google is taking a page out of Snowflake, Databricks as well. A big difference in the Big 3 is that AWS doesn't have this big emphasis on the up-the-stack collaboration software that both Microsoft and Google have, and that for Microsoft and Google will drive captive IaaS consumption. AWS obviously does some of that in database, a lot of that in database, but ISVs that compete with Microsoft and Google should have a greater affinity, one would think, to AWS for competitive reasons. and the same thing could be said in security, we would think because, as I mentioned before, Microsoft competes very directly with CrowdStrike and Okta and others. One of the big thing that Sarbjeet mentioned that I want to call out here, I'd love to have your opinion. AWS specifically, but also Microsoft with Azure have successfully created what Sarbjeet calls brand distance. AWS from the Amazon Retail, and even though AWS all the time talks about Amazon X and Amazon Y is in their product portfolio, but you don't really consider it part of the retail organization 'cause it's not. Azure, same thing, has created its own identity. And it seems that Google still struggles to do that. It's still very highly linked to the sort of core of Google. Now, maybe that's by design, but for enterprise customers, there's still some potential confusion with Google, what's its intentions? How long will they continue to lose money and invest? Are they going to pull the plug like they do on so many other tools? So you know, maybe some rethinking of the marketing there and the positioning. Now we didn't talk much about ecosystem, but it's vital for any cloud player, and Google again has some work to do relative to the leaders. Which brings us to supercloud. The ecosystem and end customers are now in a position this decade to digitally transform. And we're talking here about building out their own clouds, not by putting in and building data centers and installing racks of servers and storage devices, no. Rather to build value on top of the hyperscaler gift that has been presented. And that is a mega trend that we're watching closely in theCUBE community. While there's debate about the supercloud name and so forth, there little question in our minds that the next decade of cloud will not be like the last. All right, we're going to leave it there today. Many thanks to Sarbjeet Johal, and my business partner, John Furrier, for their input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast and Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE, who does some wonderful editing. And check out SiliconANGLE, a lot of coverage on Google Cloud Next and Microsoft Ignite. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can always get in touch with me via email, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or you can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai, the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> As you know by now, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, is stepping aside from his CEO role and AWS CEO, Andy Jassy, is being promoted to head all of Amazon. Bezos, of course, is going to remain executive chairman. Now, 15 years ago, next month, Amazon launched it's simple storage service, which was the first modern cloud offering. And the man who wrote the business plan for AWS, was Andy Jassy, and he's navigated the meteoric rise and disruption that has seen AWS grow into a $45 billion company that draws off the vast majority of Amazon's operating profits. No one in the media has covered Jassy more intimately and closely than John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And John joins us today to help us understand on theCUBE this move and what we can expect from Jassy in his new role, and importantly what it means for AWS. John, thanks for taking the time to speak with us. >> Hey, great day. Great to see you as always, we've done a lot of interviews together over the years and we're on our 11th year with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE. But I got to be excited too, that we're simulcasters on Clubhouse, which is kind of cool. Love Clubhouse but not since the, in December. It's awesome. It's like Cube radio. It's like, so this is a Cube talk. So we opened up a Clubhouse room while we're filming this. We'll do more live hits in studio and syndicate the Clubhouse and then take questions after. This is a huge digital transformation moment. I'm part of the digital transformation club on Clubhouse which has almost 5,000 followers at the moment and also has like 500 members. So if you're not on Clubhouse, yet, if you have an iPhone go check it out and join the digital transformation club. Android users you'll have to wait until that app is done but it's really a great club. And Jeremiah Owyang is also doing a lot of stuff on digital transformation. >> Or you can just buy an iPhone and get in. >> Yeah, that's what people are doing. I can see all the influences are on there but to me, the digital transformation, it's always been kind of a cliche, the consumerization of IT, information technology. This has been the boring world of the enterprise over the past, 20 years ago. Enterprise right now is super hot because there's no distinction between enterprise and society. And that's clearly the, because of the rise of cloud computing and the rise of Amazon Web Services which was a side project at AWS, at Amazon that Andy Jassy did. And it wasn't really pleasant at the beginning. It was failed. It failed a lot and it wasn't as successful as people thought in the early days. And I have a lot of stories with Andy that he told me a lot of the inside baseball and we'll share that here today. But we started covering Amazon since the beginning. I was as an entrepreneur. I used it when it came out and a huge fan of them as a company because they just got a superior product and they have always had been but it was very misunderstood from the beginning. And now everyone's calling it the most important thing. And Andy now is becoming Andy Jassy, the most important executive in the world. >> So let's get it to the, I mean, look at, you said to me over holidays, you thought this might have something like this could happen. And you said, Jassy is probably in line to get this. So, tell us, what can you tell us about Jassy? Why is he qualified for this job? What do you think he brings to the table? >> Well, the thing that I know about Amazon everyone's been following the Amazon news is, Jeff Bezos has a lot of personal turmoil. They had his marriage fail. They had some issues with the smear campaigns and all this stuff going on, the run-ins with Donald Trump, he bought the Washington post. He's got a lot of other endeavors outside of Amazon cause he's the second richest man in the world competing with Elon Musk at Space X versus Blue Origin. So the guy's a billionaire. So Amazon is his baby and he's been running it as best he could. He's got an executive team committee they called the S team. He's been grooming people in the company and that's just been his mode. And the rise of AWS and the business performance that we've been documenting on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, it's just been absolutely changing the game on Amazon as a company. So clearly Amazon Web Services become a driving force of the new Amazon that's emerging. And obviously they've got all their retail business and they got the gaming challenges and they got the studios and the other diversified stuff. So Jassy is just, he's just one of those guys. He's just been an Amazonian from day one. He came out of Harvard business school, drove across the country, very similar story to Jeff Bezos. He did that in 1997 and him and Jeff had been collaborating and Jeff tapped him to be his shadow, they call it, which is basically technical assistance and an heir apparent and groomed him. And then that's how it is. Jassy is not a climber as they call it in corporate America. He's not a person who is looking for a political gain. He's not a territory taker, but he's a micromanager. He loves details and he likes to create customer value. And that's his focus. So he's not a grandstander. In fact, he's been very low profile. Early days when we started meeting with him, he wouldn't meet with press regularly because they weren't writing the right stories. And everyone is, he didn't know he was misunderstood. So that's classic Amazon. >> So, he gave us the time, I think it was 2014 or 15 and he told us a story back then, John, you might want to share it as to how AWS got started. Why, what was the main spring Amazon's tech wasn't working that great? And Bezos said to Jassy, going to go figure out why and maybe explain how AWS was born. >> Yeah, we had, in fact, we were the first ones to get access to do his first public profile. If you go to the Google and search Andy Jassy, the trillion dollar baby, we had a post, we put out the story of AWS, Andy Jassy's trillion dollar baby. This was in early, this was January 2015, six years ago. And, we back then, we posited that this would be a trillion dollar total addressable market. Okay, people thought we were crazy but we wrote a story and he gave us a very intimate access. We did a full drill down on him and the person, the story of Amazon and that laid out essentially the beginning of the rise of AWS and Andy Jassy. So that's a good story to check out but really the key here is, is that he's always been relentless and competitive on creating value in what they call raising the bar outside Amazon. That's a term that they use. They also have another leadership principle called working backwards, which is like, go to the customer and work backwards from the customer in a very Steve Job's kind of way. And that's been kind of Jobs mentality as well at Apple that made them successful work backwards from the customer and make things easier. And that was Apple. Amazon, their philosophy was work backwards from the customer and Jassy specifically would say it many times and eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That was a key principle of what they were doing. So that was a key thesis of their entire business model. And that's the Amazonian way. Faster, cheaper, ship it faster, make it less expensive and higher value. While when you apply the Amazon shipping concept to cloud computing, it was completely disrupted. They were shipping code and services faster and that became their innovation strategy. More announcements every year, they out announced their competition by huge margin. They introduced new services faster and they're less expensive some say, but in the aggregate, they make more money but that's kind of a key thing. >> Well, when you, I was been listening to the TV today and there was a debate on whether or not, this support tends that they'll actually split the company into two. To me, I think it's just the opposite. I think it's less likely. I mean, if you think about Amazon getting into grocery or healthcare, eventually financial services or other industries and the IOT opportunity to me, what they do, John, is they bring in together the cloud, data and AI and they go attack these new industries. I would think Jassy of all people would want to keep this thing together now whether or not the government allows them to do that. But what are your thoughts? I mean, you've asked Andy this before in your personal interviews about splitting the company. What are your thoughts? >> Well, Jon Fortt at CNBC always asked the same question every year. It's almost like the standard question. I kind of laugh and I ask it now too because I liked Jon Fortt. I think he's an awesome dude. And I'll, it's just a tongue in cheek, Jassy. He won't answer the question. Amazon, Bezos and Jassy have one thing in common. They're really good at not answering questions. So if you ask the same question. They'll just say, nothing's ever, never say never, that's his classic answer to everything. Never say never. And he's always said that to you. (chuckles) Some say, he's, flip-flopped on things but he's really customer driven. For example, he said at one point, no one should ever build a data center. Okay, that was a principle. And then they come out and they have now a hybrid strategy. And I called them out on that and said, hey, what, are you flip-flopping? You said at some point, no one should have a data center. He's like, well, we looked at it differently and what we meant was is that, it should all be cloud native. Okay. So that's kind of revision, but he's cool with that. He says, hey, we'll revise based on what customers are doing. VMware working with Amazon that no one ever thought that would happen. Okay. So, VMware has some techies, Raghu, for instance, over there, super top notch. He worked with Jassy, directly in his team Sanjay Poonen when they went to business school together, they cut a deal. And now Amazon essentially saved VMware, in my opinion. And Pat Gelsinger drove that deal. Now, Pat Gelsinger, CEO, Intel, and Pat told me that directly in candid conversation off theCUBE, he said, hey, we have to make a decision either we're going to be in cloud or we're not going to be in cloud, we will partner. And I'll see, he was Intel. He understood the Intel inside mentality. So that's good for VMware. So Jassy does these kinds of deals. He's not afraid he's got a good stomach for business and a relentless competitor. >> So, how do you think as you mentioned Jassy is a micromanager. He gets deep into the technology. Anybody who's seen his two hour, three hour keynotes. No, he has a really fine grasp of the technology across the entire stack. How do you think John, he will approach things like antitrust, the big tech lash of the unionization of the workforce at Amazon? How do you think Jassy will approach that? >> Well, I think one of the things that emerges Jassy, first of all, he's a huge sports fan. And many people don't know that but he's also progressive person. He's very progressive politically. He's been on the record and off the record saying things like, obviously, literacy has been big on, he's been on basically unrepresented minorities, pushing for that, and certainly cloud computing in tech, women in tech, he's been a big proponent. He's been a big supporter of Teresa Carlson. Who's been rising star at Amazon. People don't know who Teresa Carlson is and they should check out her. She's become one of the biggest leaders inside Amazon she's turned around public sector from the beginning. She ran that business, she's a global star. He's been a great leader and he's been getting, forget he's a micromanager, he's on top of the details. I mean, the word is, and nothing gets approved without Andy, Andy seeing it. But he's been progressive. He's been an Amazon original as they call it internally. He's progressive, he's got the business acumen but he's perfect for this pragmatic conversation that needs to happen. And again, because he's so technically strong having a CEO that's that proficient is going to give Amazon an advantage when they have to go in and change how DC works, for instance, or how the government geopolitical landscape works, because Amazon is now a global company with regions all over the place. So, I think he's pragmatic, he's open to listening and changing. I think that's a huge quality >> Well, when you think of this, just to set the context here for those who may not know, I mean, Amazon started as I said back in 2006 in March with simple storage service that later that year they announced EC2 which is their compute platform. And that was the majority of their business, is still a very large portion of their business but Amazon, our estimates are that in 2020, Amazon did 45 billion, 45.4 billion in revenue. That's actually an Amazon reported number. And just to give you a context, Azure about 26 billion GCP, Google about 6 billion. So you're talking about an industry that Amazon created. That's now $78 billion and Amazon at 45 billion. John they're growing at 30% annually. So it's just a massive growth engine. And then another story Jassy told us, is they, he and Jeff and the team talked early on about whether or not they should just sort of do an experiment, do a little POC, dip their toe in and they decided to go for it. Let's go big or go home as Michael Dell has said to us many times, I mean, pretty astounding. >> Yeah. One of the things about Jassy that people should know about, I think there's some compelling relative to the newest ascension to the CEO of Amazon, is that he's not afraid to do new things. For instance, I'll give you an example. The Amazon Web Services re-invent their annual conference grew to being thousands and thousands of people. And they would have a traditional after party. They called a replay, they'd have a band like every tech conference and their conference became so big that essentially, it was like setting up a live concert. So they were spending millions of dollars to set up basically a one night concert and they'd bring in great, great artists. So he said, hey, what's been all this cash? Why don't we just have a festival? So they did a thing called Intersect. They got LA involved from creatives and they basically built a weekend festival in the back end of re-invent. This was when real life was, before COVID and they turned into an opportunity because that's the way they think. They like to look at the resources, hey, we're already all in on this, why don't we just keep it for the weekend and charge some tickets and have a good time. He's not afraid to take chances on the product side. He'll go in and take a chance on a new market. That comes from directly from Bezos. They try stuff. They don't mind failing but they put a tight leash on measurement. They work backwards from the customer and they are not afraid to take chances. So, that's going to board well for him as he tries to figure out how Amazon navigates the contention on the political side when they get challenged for their dominance. And I think he's going to have to apply that pragmatic experimentation to new business models. >> So John I want you to take on AWS. I mean, despite the large numbers, I talked about 30% growth, Azure is growing at over 50% a year, GCP at 83%. So despite the large numbers and big growth the growth rates are slowing. Everybody knows that, we've reported it extensively. So the incoming CEO of Amazon Web Services has a TAM expansion challenge. And at some point they've got to decide, okay, how do we keep this growth engine? So, do you have any thoughts as to who might be the next CEO and what are some of their challenges as you see it? >> Well, Amazon is a real product centric company. So it's going to be very interesting to see who they go with here. Obviously they've been grooming a lot of people. There's been some turnover. You had some really strong executives recently leave, Jeff Wilkes, who was the CEO of the retail business. He retired a couple of months ago, formerly announced I think recently, he was probably in line. You had Mike Clayville, is now the chief revenue officer of Stripe. He ran all commercial business, Teresa Carlson stepped up to his role as well as running public sector. Again, she got more power. You have Matt Garman who ran the EC2 business, Stanford grad, great guy, super strong on the product side. He's now running all commercial sales and marketing. And he's also on the, was on Bezos' S team, that's the executive kind of team. Peter DeSantis is also on that S team. He runs all infrastructure. He took over for James Hamilton, who was the genius behind all the data center work that they've done and all the chip design stuff that they've innovated on. So there's so much technical innovation going on. I think you still going to see a leadership probably come from, I would say Matt Garman, in my opinion is the lead dog at this point, he's the lead horse. You could have an outside person come in depending upon how, who might be available. And that would probably come from an Andy Jassy network because he's a real fierce competitor but he's also a loyalist and he likes trust. So if someone comes in from the outside, it's going to be someone maybe he trusts. And then the other wildcards are like Teresa Carlson. Like I said, she is a great woman in tech who's done amazing work. I've profiled her many times. We've interviewed her many times. She took that public sector business with Amazon and changed the game completely. Outside the Jedi contract, she was in competitive for, had the big Trump showdown with the Jedi, with the department of defense. Had the CIA cloud. Amazon set the standard on public sector and that's directly the result of Teresa Carlson. But she's in the field, she's not a product person, she's kind of running that group. So Amazon has that product field kind of structure. So we'll see how they handle that. But those are the top three I think are going to be in line. >> So the obvious question that people always ask and it is a big change like this is, okay, in this case, what is Jassy going to bring in? And what's going to change? Maybe the flip side question is somewhat more interesting. What's not going to change in your view? Jassy has been there since nearly the beginning. What are some of the fundamental tenets that he's, that are fossilized, that won't change, do you think? >> I think he's, I think what's not going to change is Amazon, is going to continue to grow and develop their platform business and enable more SaaS players. That's a little bit different than what Microsoft's doing. They're more SaaS oriented, Office 365 is becoming their biggest application in terms of revenue on Microsoft side. So Amazon is going to still have to compete and enable more ecosystem partners. I think what's not going to change is that Bezos is still going to be in charge because executive chairman is just a code word for "not an active CEO." So in the corporate governance world when you have an executive chairman, that's essentially the person still in charge. And so he'll be in charge, will still be the boss of Andy Jassy and Jassy will be running all of Amazon. So I think that's going to be a little bit the same, but Jassy is going to be more in charge. I think you'll see a team change over, whether you're going to see some new management come in, Andy's management team will expand, I think Amazon will stay the same, Amazon Web Services. >> So John, last night, I was just making some notes about notable transitions in the history of the tech business, Gerstner to Palmisano, Gates to Ballmer, and then Ballmer to Nadella. One that you were close to, David Packard to John Young and then John Young to Lew Platt at the old company. Ellison to Safra and Mark, Jobs to Cook. We talked about Larry Page to Sundar Pichai. So how do you see this? And you've talked to, I remember when you interviewed John Chambers, he said, there is no rite of passage, East coast mini-computer companies, Edson de Castro, Ken Olsen, An Wang. These were executives who wouldn't let go. So it's of interesting to juxtapose that with the modern day executive. How do you see this fitting in to some of those epic transitions that I just mentioned? >> I think a lot of people are surprised at Jeff Bezos', even stepping down. I think he's just been such the face of Amazon. I think some of the poll numbers that people are doing on Twitter, people don't think it's going to make a big difference because he's kind of been that, leader hand on the wheel, but it's been its own ship now, kind of. And so depending on who's at the helm, it will be different. I think the Amazon choice of Andy wasn't obvious. And I think a lot of people were asking the question who was Andy Jassy and that's why we're doing this. And we're going to be doing more features on the Andy Jassy. We got a tons, tons of content that we've we've had shipped, original content with them. We'll share more of those key soundbites and who he is. I think a lot of people scratching their head like, why Andy Jassy? It's not obvious to the outsiders who don't know cloud computing. If you're in the competing business, in the digital transformation side, everyone knows about Amazon Web Services. Has been the most successful company, in my opinion, since I could remember at many levels just the way they've completely dominated the business and how they change others to be dominant. So, I mean, they've made Microsoft change, it made Google change and even then he's a leader that accepts conversations. Other companies, their CEOs hide behind their PR wall and they don't talk to people. They won't come on Clubhouse. They won't talk to the press. They hide behind their PR and they feed them, the media. Jassy is not afraid to talk to reporters. He's not afraid to talk to people, but he doesn't like people who don't know what they're talking about. So he doesn't suffer fools. So, you got to have your shit together to talk to Jassy. That's really the way it is. And that's, and he'll give you mind share, like he'll answer any question except for the ones that are too tough for him to answer. Like, are you, is facial recognition bad or good? Are you going to spin out AWS? I mean these are the hard questions and he's got a great team. He's got Jay Carney, former Obama press secretary working for him. He's been a great leader. So I'm really bullish on, is a good choice. >> We're going to jump into the Clubhouse here and open it up shortly. John, the last question for you is competition. Amazon as a company and even Jassy specifically I always talk about how they don't really focus on the competition, they focus on the customer but we know that just observing these folks Bezos is very competitive individual. Jassy, I mean, you know him better than I, very competitive individual. So, and he's, Jassy has been known to call out Oracle. Of course it was in response to Larry Ellison's jabs at Amazon regarding database. But, but how do you see that? Do you see that changing at all? I mean, will Amazon get more publicly competitive or they stick to their knitting, you think? >> You know this is going to sound kind of a weird analogy. And I know there's a lot of hero worshiping on Elon Musk but Elon Musk and Andy Jassy have a lot of similarities in the sense of their brilliance. They got both a brilliant people, different kinds of backgrounds. Obviously, they're running different things. They both are builders, right? If you were listening to Elon Musk on Clubhouse the other night, what was really striking was not only the magic of how it was all orchestrated and what he did and how he interviewed Robin Hood. He basically is about building stuff. And he was asked questions like, what advice do you give startups? He's like, if you need advice you shouldn't be doing startups. That's the kind of mentality that Jassy has, which is, it's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart, but Elon Musk is a builder. Jassy builds, he likes to build stuff, right? And so you look at all the things that he's done with AWS, it's been about enabling people to be successful with the tools that they need, adding more services, creating things that are lower price point. If you're an entrepreneur and you're over the age of 30, you know about AWS because you know what, it's cheaper to start a business on Amazon Web Services than buying servers and everyone knows that. If you're under the age of 25, you might not know 50 grand to a hundred thousand just to start something. Today you get your credit card down, you're up and running and you can get Clubhouses up and running all day long. So the next Clubhouse will be on Amazon or a cloud technology. And that's because of Andy Jassy right? So this is a significant executive and he continue, will bring that mindset of building. So, I think the digital transformation, we're in the digital engine club, we're going to see a complete revolution of a new generation. And I think having a new leader like Andy Jassy will enable in my opinion next generation talent, whether that's media and technology convergence, media technology and art convergence and the fact that he digs music, he digs sports, he digs tech, he digs media, it's going to be very interesting to see, I think he's well-poised to be, and he's soft-spoken, he doesn't want the glamorous press. He doesn't want the puff pieces. He just wants to do what he does and he puts his game do the talking. >> Talking about advice at startups. Just a quick aside. I remember, John, you and I when we were interviewing Scott McNealy former CEO of Sun Microsystems. And you asked him advice for startups. He said, move out of California. It's kind of tongue in cheek. I heard this morning that there's a proposal to tax the multi-billionaires of 1% annually not just the one-time tax. And so Jeff Bezos of course, has a ranch in Texas, no tax there, but places all over. >> You see I don't know. >> But I don't see Amazon leaving Seattle anytime soon, nor Jassy. >> Jeremiah Owyang did a Clubhouse on California. And the basic sentiment is that, it's California is not going away. I mean, come on. People got to just get real. I think it's a fad. Yeah. This has benefits with remote working, no doubt, but people will stay here in California, the network affects beautiful. I think Silicon Valley is going to continue to be relevant. It's just going to syndicate differently. And I think other hubs like Seattle and around the world will be integrated through remote work and I think it's going to be much more of a democratizing effect, not a win lose. So that to me is a huge shift. And look at Amazon, look at Amazon and Microsoft. It's the cloud cities, so people call Seattle. You've got Google down here and they're making waves but still, all good stuff. >> Well John, thanks so much. Let's let's wrap and let's jump into the Clubhouse and hear from others. Thanks so much for coming on, back on theCUBE. And many times we, you and I've done this really. It was a pleasure having you. Thanks for your perspectives. And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (soft ambient music)

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the cubes coverage here at in San Francisco, the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm job for your host. We are the very special guests, the COO of VMware, Sanjay Poonen, cube alumni. When you talk about security, talk about the modern enterprise as it transforms new use cases, new problems emerge. New opportunities exist here to break it down. Sanjay, welcome back. Thank you John. Always a pleasure to be on your show and I think it's my first time at RSA. We've talked a number of times, but nice to see you here. Well, it's a security guard. Well, this is really why I wanted you to talk, talk to you because operations is become now the big conversation around security. So you know, security was once part of it. It comes out and part of the board conversation, but when you look at security, all the conversations that we're seeing that are the most important conversations are almost a business model conversation. >>Almost like if you're the CEO of the company, you've got HR people, HR, organizational behavior, collaboration, technology, stack compliance and risk management. So the threat of cyber has to cut across now multiple operational functions of the business. It's no longer one thing, it's everything. So this is really kind of makes it the pressure of the business owners to be mindful of a bigger picture. And the attack velocity is happening so much faster, more volume of attacks, milliseconds and nanosecond attacks. So this is a huge, huge problem. I need you to break it down for me. >> Good. But then wonderful intro. No, I would say you're absolutely right. First off, security is a boardroom topic. Uh, audit committees are asking, you know, the CIO so often, you know, reports a report directly, sometimes, often not even to the CIO, to the head of legal or finance and often to the audit. >>So it's a boardroom topic then. You're right, every department right now cares about security because they've got both threat and security of nation state, all malicious, organized crime trying to come at them. But they've also got physical security mind. I mean, listen, growing a virus is a serious threat to our physical security. And we're really concerned about employees and the idea of a cyber security and physical security. We've put at VMware, cybersecurity and, and um, um, physical security. One guy, the CIO. So he actually runs vote. So I think you're absolutely right and if you're a head of HR, you care about your employees. If you're care ahead of communications, you care about your reputation and marketing the same way. If you're a finance, you care about your accounting systems and having all of the it systems that are. So we certainly think that holistic approach does, deserves a different approach to security, which is it can't be silo, silo, silo. >>It has to be intrinsic. And I've talked on your show about why intrinsic and how differentiated that intrinsic security, what I talked about this morning in my keynote. >> Well, and then again, the connect the dots there. It's not just security, it's the applications that are being built on mobile. For instance, I've got a mobile app. I have milliseconds, serious bond to whether something's yes or no. That's the app on mobile. But still the security threat is still over here and I've got the app over here. This is now the reality. And again, AirWatch was a big acquisition that you did. I also had some security. Carbon black was a $2 billion acquisition that VMware made. That's a security practice. How's it all coming together? Can you think of any questions? Blame the VMware because it's not just security, it's what's around it. >> Yeah. I think we began to see over the course of the last several years that there were certain control points and security that could help, you know, bring order to this chaos of 5,000 security vendors. >>They're all legitimate. They're all here at the show. They're good vendors. But you cannot, if you are trying to say healthy, go to a doctor and expect the doctor to tell you, eat 5,000 tablets and sailed. He just is not sustainable. It has to be baked into your diet. You eat your proteins, your vegetables, your fruit, your drink, your water. The same way we believe security needs to become intrinsically deeper parts, the platform. So what were the key platforms and control points? We decided to focus on the network, the endpoint, and you could think of endpoint as to both client and workload identity, cloud analytics. You take a few of those and network. We've been laboring the last seven years to build a definitive networking company and now a networking security company where we can do everything from data center networking, Dell firewalls to load balancing to SDN in this NSX platform. >>You remember where you bought an nice syrup. The industry woke up like what's VM ever doing in networking? We've now built on that 13,000 customers really good growing revenue business in networking and and now doing that working security. That space is fragmented across Cisco, Palo Alto, FIU, NetScaler, checkpoint Riverbed, VMware cleans that up. You get to the end point side. We saw the same thing. You know you had an endpoint management now workspace one the sequel of what AirWatch was, but endpoint security again, fragmented. You had Symantec McAfee, now CrowdStrike, tenable Qualis, you know, I mean just so many fragmented IOM. We felt like we could come in now and clean that up too, so I have to worry about to do >> well basically explaining that, but I want to get now to the next conversation point that I'm interested in operational impact because when you have all these things to operationalize, you saw that with dev ops and cloud now hybrid, you got to operationalize this stuff. >>You guys have been in the operations side of the business for our VMware. That's what you're known for and the developers and now on the horizon I gotta operationalize all the security. What do I do? I'm the CSO. I think it's really important that in understanding operations of the infrastructure, we have that control point called vSphere and we're now going to take carbon black and make it agentless on the silverside workloads, which has never been done before. That's operationalizing it at the infrastructure level. At the end point we're going to unify carbon black and workspace one into a unified agent, never been done before. That's operationalizing it on the client side. And then on the container and the dev ops site, you're going to start bringing security into the container world. We actually happened in our grade point of view in containers. You've seen us do stuff with Tansu and Kubernetes and pivotal. >>Bringing that together and data security is a very logical thing that we will add there. So we have a very good view of where the infrastructure and operations parts that we know well, a vSphere, NSX workspace one containers with 10 Xu, we're going to bring security to all of them and then bake it more and more in so it's not feeling like it's a point tool. The same platform, carbon black will be able to handle the security of all of those use cases. One platform, several use cases. Are you happy with the carbon black acquisition? Listen, you know, you stay humble and hungry. Uh, John for a fundamental reason, I've been involved with number of acquisitions from my SAP VMware days, billion dollar plus. We've done talking to us. The Harvard business review had an article several years ago, which Carney called acquisitions and majority of them fail and they feel not because of process of product they feel because good people leave. >>One of the things that we have as a recipe does acquisition. We applied that to AirWatch, we apply the deny Sera. There is usually some brain trust. You remember in the days of nice area, it was my team Cosato and the case of AirWatch. It was John Marshall and that team. We want to preserve that team to help incubate this and then what breve EV brings a scale, so I'm delighted about Patrick earlier. I want to have him on your show next time because he's now the head of our security business unit. He's culturally a fit for the mr. humble, hungry. He wants to see just, we were billion dollar business now with security across networking endpoint and then he wants to take just he's piece of it, right? The common black piece of it, make it a billion dollar business while the overall security business goes from three to five. >>And I think we're going to count them for many years to come to really be a key part of VMware's fabric, a great leader. So we're successful. If he's successful, what's my job then? He reports to me is to get all the obstacles out of the way. Get every one of my core reps to sell carbon black. Every one of the partners like Dell to sell carbon black. So one of the deals we did within a month is Dell has now announced that their preferred solution on at Dell laptops, this carbon bike, they will work in the past with silence and crowd CrowdStrike. Now it's common black every day laptop now as a default option. That's called blank. So as we do these, John, the way we roll is one on here to basically come in and occupy that acquisition, get the obstacles out of the way, and that let Patrick scaled us the same way. >>Martine Casado or jumbo. So we have a playbook. We're gonna apply that playbook. Stay humble and hungry. And you ask me that question every year. How are we doing a carbon black? I will be saying, I love you putting a check on you. It will be checking in when we've done an AirWatch. What do you think? Pretty good. Very good. I think good. Stayed line to the radar. Kept growing. It's top right. Known every magic quadrant. That business is significant. Bigger than the 100 million while nice here. How do we do a nice hero? NSX? It's evolved quite a bit. It's evolved. So this is back to the point. VMware makes bets. So unlike other acquisitions where they're big numbers, still big numbers, billions or billions, but they're bets. AirWatch was a good bet. Turned out okay. That the betting, you're being conservative today anyway. That's it. You're making now. >>How would you classify those bets? What are the big bets that you're making right now? Listen, >> I think there's, um, a handful of them. I like to think of things as no more than three to five. We're making a big bet. A multi-cloud. Okay. The world is going to be private, public edge. You and us have talked a lot about VMware. AWS expanded now to Azure and others. We've a big future that private cloud, public cloud edge number two, we're making a big bet on AB motorization with the container level 10 zoos. I think number three, we're making a big bet in virtual cloud networking cause we think longterm there's going to be only two networking companies in matter, VMware and Cisco. Number four, we're making a big bet in the digital workspace and build on what we've done with AirWatch and other technologies. Number five, and make it a big bet security. >>So these five we think of what can take the company from 10 to 20 billion. So we, you know, uh, we, we've talked about the $10 billion Mark. Um, and the next big milestone for the company is a 20 billion ball Mark. And you have to ask yourself, can you see this company with these five bets going from where they are about a 10 billion revenue company to 20. Boom. We hope again, >> Dave, a lot that's doing a braking and now he might've already shipped the piece this morning on multi-cloud. Um, he and I were commenting that, well, I said it's the third wave of cloud computing, public cloud, hybrid multi-cloud and hybrids, the first step towards multi-cloud. Everyone kind of knows that. Um, but I want to ask you, because I told Dave and we kind of talked about this is a multi-decade growth opportunity, wealth creation, innovation, growth, new opportunity multicloud for the generation. >>Take the, this industry the next level. How do you see that multicloud wave? Do you agree on the multigenerational and if so, what specifically do you see that unfolding into this? And I'm deeply inspired by what Andy Jassy, Satya Nadella, you know, the past leading up to Thomas Korea and these folks are creating big cloud businesses. Amazon's the biggest, uh, in the iOS pass world. Azure is second, Google is third, and just market shares. These folks collectively are growing, growing really well. In some senses, VM-ware gets to feed off that ecosystem in the public cloud. So we are firm believers in what you're described. Hybrid cloud is the pot to the multicloud. We coined that term hybrid thought. In fact, the first incantation of eco there was called via cloud hybrid service. So we coined the term hybrid cloud, but the world is not multi-cloud. The the, the key though is that I don't think you're gonna walk away from those three clouds I mentioned have deep pockets. >>Then none of them are going away and they're going to compete hard with each other. The market shares may stay the same. Our odd goal is to be a Switzerland player that can help our customers take VM or workloads, optimize them in the private cloud first. Okay? When a bank of America says on their earnings caller, Brian Warren and said, I can run a private cloud better than a public cloud and I can save 2 billion doing that, okay? It turns off any of the banks are actually running on VMware. That's their goal. But there are other companies like Freddie Mac, we're going all in with Amazon. We want to ride the best of both worlds. If you're a private cloud, we're going to make you the most efficient private cloud, VMware software, well public cloud, and going to Amazon like a Freddie Mac will help you ride your apps into that through VMware. >>So sometimes history can be a predictor of future behavior. And just to kind of rewind the computer industry clock, if you looked at mainframe mini-computers, inter networking, internet proprietary network operating systems dominated it, but you saw the shift and it was driven by choice for customers, multiple vendors, interoperability. So to me, I think cloud multicloud is going to come down to the best choice for the workload and then the environment of the business. And that's going to be a spectrum. But the key in that is multi-vendor, multi, a friend choice, multi-vendor, interoperability. This is going to be the next equation in the modern error. It's not gonna look the same as mainframe mini's networking, but it'll create the next Cisco, the create the next new brand that may or may not be out there yet that might be competing with you or you might be that next brand. >>So interoperability, multi-vendor choice has been a theme in open systems for a long time. Your reactions, I think it's absolutely right, John, you're onto something there. Listen, the multicloud world is almost a replay of the multi hardware system world. 20 years ago, if you asked who was a multi hardware player before, it was Dell, HP at the time, IBM, now, Lenovo, EMC, NetApp, so and so forth and Silva storage, networking. The multicloud world today is Amazon, Azure, Google. If you go to China, Alibaba, so on and so forth. A Motiva somebody has to be a Switzerland player that can serve the old hardware economy and the new hardware economy, which is the, which is the cloud and then of course, don't forget the device economy of Apple, Google, Microsoft, there too. I think that if you have some fundamental first principles, you expressed one of them. >>Listen where open source exists, embrace it. That's why we're going big on Kubernetes. If there are multiple clouds, embrace it. Do what's right for the customer, abstract away. That's what virtualization is. Managed common infrastructure across Ahmed, which is what our management principles are, secure things. At the point of every device and every workload. So those are the principles. Now the engineering of it changes. The way in which we're doing virtualization today in 2020 is slightly different from when Diane started the company and around the year 2020 years ago. But the principals are saying, we're just not working just with the hardware vendors working toward the cloud vendors. So using choices where it's at, the choice is what they want. Absolutely, absolutely. And you're right. It's choice because it was the big workloads. We see, for example, Amazon having a headstart in the public cloud markets, but there's some use cases where Azure is applicable. >>Some use his word, Google's applicable, and to us, if the entire world was only one hardware player or only one cloud player, only one device player, you don't need VMware. We thrive in heterogeneity. It's awesome. I love that word. No heterogeneity provides not 3000 vendors. There's almost three, three of every kind, three silver vendors, three storage vendors, three networking vendors, three cloud vendors, three device vendors. We was the middle of all of it. And yeah, there may be other companies who tried to do that too. If they are, we should learn from them, do it better than them. And competition even to us is a good thing. All right. My final question for you is in the, yeah, the Dell technologies family of which VMware is a part of, although big part of it, the crown jewel as we've been calling them the cube, they announced RSA is being sold to a private equity company. >>What's the general reaction amongst VMware folks and the, and the Dell technology family? Good move, no impact. What we support Dell and you know, all the moves that they've made. Um, and from our perspective, you know, if we're not owning it, we're going to partner it. So I see no overlap with RSA. We partner with them. They've got three core pillars, secure ID, net witness and Archer. We partnered with them very well. We have no aspirations to get into those aspects of governance. Risk and compliance or security has been, so it's a partner. So whoever's running it, Rohit runs on very well. He also owns the events conference. We have a great relationship and then we'll keep doing that. Well, we are focused in the areas I described, network, endpoint security. And I think what Michael has done brilliantly through the course of the last few years is set up a hardware and systems company in Dell and allow the software company called Vima to continue to operate. >>And I think, you know, the movement of some of these assets between the companies like pivotal to us and so on and so forth, cleans it up so that now you've got both these companies doing well. Dell has gone public, we Hammer's gone public and he has said on the record, what's good for Dell is good, what's good for VMware and vice versa and good for the customer. And I think the key is there's no visibility on what cloud native looks like. Hybrid, public, multi, multi, not so much. But you get almost, it's an easy bridge to get across and get there. AI, cyber are all big clear trends. They're waves. Sasha. Great. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Um, your thoughts on the security show here. Uh, what's your, what's your take to, uh, definitive security shows? I hope it stays that way. Even with the change of where RSA is. >>Ownership goes is this conference in black hat and we play in both, uh, Amazon's conference. I was totally starting to, uh, reinforce, reinforce cloud security will show up there too. Uh, but we, we think, listen, there's what, 30,000 people here. So it's a force. It's a little bit like VMworld. We will play here. We'll play a big, we've got, you know, it just so happens because the acquisition happened before we told them, but we have two big presences here. We were at carbon black, um, and it's an important business for us. And I said, like I said, we have $1 billion business and security today by 30,000 customers using us in a security network, endpoints cloud. I want to take that to be a multi, multiple times that size. And I think there's a pot to do that because it's an adjacent us and security. So we have our own kind of selfish motives here in terms of getting more Mindshare and security. >>We did a keynote this morning, which was well received with Southwest airlines. She did a great job. Carrie Miller, she was a fantastic speaker and it was our way of showing in 20 minutes, not just to our point of view, because you don't want to be self serving a practitioner's point of view. And that's what's really important. Well finally on a personal note, um, you know, I always use the term tech athlete, which I think you are one, you really work hard and smart, but I got to get your thoughts. But then I saw you're not on Twitter. I'm on. When IBM announced a new CEO, Arvin, um, fishnet Indian American, another CEO, this is a pattern. We're starting to see Indian American CEOs running cup American companies because this is the leadership and it's really a great thing in my mind, I think is one of the most successful stories of meritocracy of all time. >>You're quick. I'm a big fan of oven, big fan of Shantanu, Sundar Pichai, something that Ellen, many of them are close friends of mine. Uh, many of them have grown up in Southern India. We're a different ages. Some of them are older than me and in many cases, you know, we were falling behind other great players like Vino Cosla who came even 10 to 15 years prior. And you know, it's hard for an immigrant in this country. You know, um, when I first got here and I came as an immigrant to Dartmouth college, there may have been five or 10 Brown skin people in the town of Hanover, New Hampshire. I don't know if you've been to New Hampshire. I've been there, there's not many at that time. And then the late 1980s, now of course, there's much more, uh, so, you know, uh, we stay humble and hungry. >>There's a part of our culture in India that's really valued education and hard work and people like Arvin and some of these other people are products. I look up to them, the things I learned from them. And um, you know, it's true of India. It's a really good thing to see these people be successful at name brand American companies, whether it's IBM or Microsoft or Google or Adobe or MasterCard. So we're, we're, I'm in that fan club and there's a lot I learned from that. I just love being around people who love entrepreneurship, love innovation, love technology, and work hard. So congratulations. Thank you so much for your success. Great to see you again soon as you put in the COO of VM-ware here on the ground floor here at RSA conference at Moscone, sharing his insight into the security practice that is now carbon black and VMware. All the good things that are going on there. Thanks for watching.

>> From the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of wiki buns cube insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, I plan to look deeper into the cloud market and specifically the business results and the momentum of the big three U.S cloud players. Now, Google last week opened up a bit and they not only broke out YouTube's revenues but also its cloud business. And quite a bit more detailed now like Microsoft the numbers are still somewhat opaque and hard to compare with AWS numbers which I find much cleaner. Nonetheless by squinting through the data, we're able to better understand the momentum that these three companies have in cloud and of course the ETR spending data, gives us an added data-driven dimension that is really insightful and helpful. Today we're focusing on, the big three in cloud. Amazon's AWS, Google's cloud platform GCP and Microsoft Azure. Now to meet the other U.S players are not hyper scalars and they're really not even in the discussion other than is an extension of their existing business. As an example, it would take IBM and Oracle between four and six years to spend as much on capex as Google spends, in four months. Now coming back to the big three. Each of these companies is coming at the opportunity with a different perspective. But Amazon and Microsoft, have been on a collision course for quite some time now. Google of course aspires to get into that conversation. Amazon in my opinion is the gold standard in cloud and I specifically refer to infrastructure as a service. They created the market and have earned the right to define the sector. Competitors like Microsoft are smart to differentiate and I'm going to discuss that. But first, let's take a listen as to how Amazon's CEO Andy Jassy Amazon web services CEO Andy Jassy, thinks about the goals of the AWS business. Roll the clip please. >> A high-level are top-down aggressive goals that we want every single customer who uses our platform to have an outstanding customer experience. And we want that outstanding customer experience in part is that their operational performance and their security are outstanding. But also that it allows them to build projects and initiatives that change their customer experience and allow them to be a sustainable successful business over a long period of time and then, we also really want to be the technology infrastructure platform under all the applications of people build. >> So, what's interesting to me here is how Jesse thinks about the AWS platform. It's a platform, to build applications. It's not a SaaS, it's not a platform which AWS can use to sell its software packages, it's a place to build apps. Any application, any workload, any place in the world. So when I say AWS has clean numbers, it's because they have a clean business. Infrastructure is what they do, period. That's what they report in their numbers and it's clean. Now compare that with Microsoft. Microsoft is doing incredibly well in the cloud and will come back to that, but Microsoft is taking a much different approach to the market. They report cloud revenue but it comprises public, private and hybrid. It includes SQL Server, Windows Server, Visual Studio, System Center, GateHub and Azure. And also support services and consulting. But the key here is they defined cloud to their advantage which is smart trying to differentiate with a multi cloud any cloud, any edge, story. Think Microsoft Azure stack slash Microsoft Ark etc. Now Google as we know is coming at this as a late comer. They admit they're a challenger. Their starting point is G suite. Their cloud focus is infrastructure and analytics. So, with that as some background let's take a look at the wiki bond estimates for I as revenue in 2019. What we have here is our estimates of AWS Azure and GCPs is IaaS and PaaS revenue, for 2018 and 2019. We've tried to strip out everything else so we can make an apples-to-apples comparison with Amazon. So let's start with Amazon. The street is concerned about the growth rate of AWS. It grew 35% last quarter, which admittedly is slowing down. But it did just under 10 billion. Think about that. AWS will probably hit a 50 billion dollar run rate this year 50 billion and it's growing in the double digits. AWS is going to be larger than Oracle this year and Cisco is next in its sights. it's like Drew Brees knocking down records in the NFL. Microsoft is very strong but remember, these are estimates. They report as your growth, but they don't really give us a dollar figure. We have to infer that from other data. So the narrative on Microsoft is they're catching up to AWS and in one-dimension that's true because they're growing faster than AWS. But AWS in 2019 grew by an amount almost equal to Asher's entire business in 2018. Now Google is hard to peg. The only thing we know is Google said it's cloud business was 9 billion in 2019, up from 5.8 billion in 18 and 4 billion in 17. So we're seeing an accelerating growth rate. That they said is largely attributable to GCP and they told us that GCP is growing significantly faster than their overall business. Which remember includes, G suite, cloud business that is. Okay. So that's the picture. Now, I want to take a minute to talk about the profitability of the cloud. On the Microsoft earnings call, Heather Bellini of Goldman Sachs, she was effusive she's an analyst exclaiming how impressed she was with the fact that Microsoft has been consistently increasing its cloud gross margins each quarter. I think was up five points in the last quarter. And on the Google call, Heather again was praising Google CEO Sundar Pichai on gross margin guidance for GCP. Which Sundar didn't answer. As well, Andy Jassy said in the Q blast reinvent that the cloud was higher margin than retail but it's scale, it's a relatively low margin business. As compared to software. I would like to comment on all this. First I think Jesse is sandbagging. AWS is a great margin business in my opinion. AWS has operating margins consistently in the mid 20s like 26% last quarter. Now, Bellini on the earnings call, was pressing on gross margins which in my opinion are even more impressive. Here's why. This is a chart I drew a long long time ago. It's a very basic view of the economics of the different sectors of the technology business. Namely hardware, software and services. Now, that each have a different margin profile as we're showing here. On the vertical axes, marginal cost that is the incremental cost of producing one additional unit of a product or service. On the horizontal axis, is volume. And we're showing the Pre-Cloud Era on the left and the Post-Cloud Era on the right-hand side of the chart. And you can see each segment has a different cost and hence different margin profile. In Hardware, you have economies at volume but you have to purchase and assemble components and so at some point your marginal cost hit a floor. Professional services have a diseconomies of scale. Meaning at higher volume, things get more complex and you have more overhead. Now that red line is software and everybody loves software because the marginal costs go to zero and your gross margin approaches the cost of distributing the software. Back in the old days, it really came down to the cost of a what our custom distributed a disk or a CD. So software gross margins are absolutely huge. Now let me call your attention to the green line that we've labeled outsourcing. In the pre-cloud era, outsourcing companies could get some economies but it really wasn't game changing. But in the post-cloud world the hyper scalars are driving automation. Now I'm exaggerating the margin impact because the cloud players still have to buy hardware and they have other costs. But the point is, gross margin and outsourcing IT to a cloud player is far more attractive to the vendor at scale. So Heather Bellini, was essentially asking Sachini Adela how is it that you can keep expanding your gross margins each quarter and she was trying to understand, if GCP gross margins were tracking similar to where AWS and Azure were back when they were smaller. And I think these curves at least give us some guidance. All right, so now let's pivot into the ETR data. This chart shows net score which remember, refers to spending velocity for each of the big three cloud players. Over the past nine surveys for cloud computing the cloud computing sector. Now three things stand out. First is that AWS remains very strong with net scores solidly in the 60% plus range. Second, is Azure has sustained a clear momentum lead over AWS, since the July 18 survey. And the third, is look at GCP's uptick. It's very notable and quite encouraging for Google. Now, let's take another cut on this data and drill into the larger companies, in the ETR data set. Look what happens when you isolate on Fortune 500. Two points here, AWS actually retakes the lead over azure, in net score or spending velocity even though Azure remains very strong. Amazon's showing in large accounts is very very impressive. Nearly back to early 2018 peak levels at 76%. So really strong net scores. The second point is GCPs uptrend holds firm and actually increases slightly, in these larger accounts. So it appears, that the big brands which perhaps used to shy away from cloud, are now increasingly adopting. Now, one of the things ETR does that I love is these drill downs, where they'll ask specific questions that are both timely and relevant. So we want to know, what every salesperson wants to know. Why do they buy? And that's what this chart shows. It shows data from the ETR drill downs and on the left hand in the green or the y the buys from Microsoft AWS and Google cloud. For Microsoft CIOs a compatibility with existing skills and the organization's IT footprint then its feature set etc. Look here's the deal, this is mr. softies huge advantage. It's just simpler to migrate work to Azure if you're already running Microsoft apps. And if Microsoft continues to deliver adequate features it's a no-brainer for many customers. For AWS, the pluses are ROI near-term and long-term and I've said many times, best cloud in terms of reliability, uptime, security AWS has the best cloud for infrastructure. And if you're not incurring huge migration cost or if you're not Walmart, why wouldn't you go, with the best cloud? Now GCP comes down to the tech. Google has good tech and IT guys. They're geeks. And geeks love Tech. And when it comes to analytics, Google is very very strong as well. Now the right-hand side of this chart shows why this is not in my opinion a winner-take-all game. The chart shows the percent of workloads in the cloud today in two years and three years across different survey dates. Today it's between 25% and 35% and it's headed upwards to 50% , this is a huge growth opportunity for these companies. You know sometimes people say to me that Google doesn't care about the cloud because it's such a small piece of their business or well they can't be number one or number two so they'll exit it. I don't buy this for a second. This is a trillion dollar business. Google is in it for the long game, and in my opinion, is going to slowly gain share over time. All right let's wrap up by looking forward to 2020 and beyond. The first thing I want to say is feel good for Google for reporting its cloud revenues but I think Google has to show more in cloud. I understand it's a good first step but IT buyers are still going to want to see more transparency. The other point I want to make is we are entering a new era the story of the past isn't going to be the same as this decade. Buyers aren't afraid of cloud anymore. It has become a mandate. The dominant services of the past and compute storage and networking to still be there but they're evolving, to support analytics, with AI and new types of database services. And these are becoming platforms for business transformation. Competition is, as we've seen, much more real today. Buyers have optionality. And that's going to create more innovation. SaaS, continues to be a huge factor but more so than ever. And hybrid and multi cloud is increasingly real and it's become a challenge for IT buyers so, I expect AWS is going to enter the ring in a bigger way to expand its Tim. Finally developers are no longer tinkerers, they are product creators. Now they said, there's a huge market. And the big tree can all participate as well as overseas players like, Ali Baba. As a customer it's becoming a more and more complicated situation. Cloud is not just about experimentation or startups it's increasingly about something that you really need to get right. Where to bet, migration and managing risks all become much more critical. On one hand, optionality is a good thing but if you make the wrong bet, it could be costly if you don't have a good exit strategy. Now as always, I really appreciate the comments that I get on my LinkedIn post and on Twitter I'm @DVellante So thanks for watching and thanks for your comments and your feedback This is Dave Vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(energetic music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley; Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Power Panel recorded here in Palo Alto, California. We've got remote guests from around the Internet. We have Evan Anderson, Mark Anderson, Phil Lohaus. Thanks for comin' on. Evan is with INVNT/IP, an organization with companies and individuals that fight nation-sponsored intellectual property theft and also author of the huge report Theft Nation Almost a 100 pages of really comprehensive analysis on it. Mark Anderson with the Future in Review CEO of Pattern, Computer and Strategic New Service Chairman of Future in Review Conference, and author of the book "The Pattern Future: "Find the World's Greatest Secrets "and Predicting the Future Using Discovery Patterns" and Phil Lohaus, American Enterprise Institute. Former intelligent analyst, researcher at the American Enterprise Institute, studying competitive strategy and emerging technologies. Guys, thanks for coming on. This topic is, is industrial IoT the new battleground? Mark, you cover the Future Review. Security is the battleground. It's not just a silo'd space. It's horizontally scalable across every single touch point of the Internet, individuals, national security, companies, global, what's your perspective on this new battleground? >> Well, thank you, I took some time and watched your last presentation on this, which I thought was excellent. And maybe I'll try to pick up from there. There's a lot of discussion there about the technical aspects of IoT, or IIoT, and some of the weaknesses, you know firewalls failing, assuming that someone's in your network. But I think that there's a deeper aspect to this. And the problem I think, John, is that yes, they are in your network already, but the deeper problem here is, who is it? Is it an individual? Is it a state? And whoever it is, I'm going to put something out that I think is going to be worth talking more deeply about, and that is, if people who can do the most damage are already in there, and are ready to do it, the question isn't "Can they?" It's "Why have they not?" And so literally, I think if you ask world leaders today, are they in the electric grid? Yes. Is Russia in ours, are we in theirs? Yes. If you said, is China in our most important areas of enterprise? Absolutely. Is Iran in our banks and so forth? They are. And you actually see states of war going on, that are nuisances, but are not what you might call Cybergeddon. And I really believe that the world leaders are truly afraid. Perhaps more afraid of that than of nuclear war. So the amount of death and destruction that could happen if everybody cut loose at the same time, is so horrifying, my guess is that there's a human restraint involved in this, but that technically, it's already game over. >> Phil, Cybergeddon, I love that term, because that's a part of our theme here, is apocalypse now or later? Industrial IoT, or IIoT, or the Internet, all these touch points are creating a surface area that for penetration's purposes, any packet can get in. Nation-states, malware, you name it. It's all problem. But this is the new war battleground. This is now digital Cybergeddon. Forget the wall on the southern border, physical wall. We're talking about a digital wall. We have major threats going on to our society in the United States, and global. This is new, rules of engagement, or no rules of engagement on how to compete in a digital war. This is something that the government's supposed to protect us for. I mean, if someone drops troops in California, physical people, the government's supposed to stop that. But if it's a digital war, it's packets. And the companies are responsible for all this. This doesn't make any sense to me. Break it down, what's the problem? And how do we solve this? >> Sure, well the problem is is that we're actually facing different kinds of threats than we were typically used to facing in the past. So in the past when we go to war, we may have a problem with a foreign country, or a conflict is coming up. We tend to, and by we I mean the United States, we tend to think of these things as we're going to send troops in, or we're going to actually have a physical fight, or we're going to have some other kind of decisive culmination of events, end of a conflict. What we're dealing with now is very different. And it's actually something that isn't entirely new. But the adversaries that we're facing now, so let's say China, Russia, and Iran, just to kind of throw them into some buckets, they think about war very differently. They think about the information space more broadly, and partially because they've been so used to having to kind of be catching up to America in terms of technology, they found other ways to compete with America, and ways that we really haven't been focusing on. And that really, I would argue, extends most prominently to the information space. And by the information space I'm speaking very broadly. I'm talking about, not just information in terms of social media, and emails, and things like that, but also things like what we're talking about today, like IIoT. And these are new threat landscapes, and ones where our competitors have a integrated way of approaching the conflict, one in which the state and private sectors kind of are molded or fused or at least are compelled to work together and we have a very different space here in the United States. And I'm happy to unpack that as we talk about that today, but what we're now facing, is not just about technical capabilities, it's about differences in governing systems, differences in governing paradigms. And so it's much bigger than just talking about the technical specifics. >> Evan, I want you to weigh in on this because one of the things that I feel strongly about, and this is pretty obvious from the commentary, and experts I talk to is, the United States has always been good at defending itself physically, you know war, in being places. Digitally, we've been really good at offense, but terrible on defense, has been the metaphor. I spoke with former four-star General Keith Alexander, who ran the NSA and was first commander of the cyber command, who is now the CEO of IronNet. He and I were talking on-camera and privately and he's saying, "Look it. "we suck at defense digitally. "We're great at offense, we can take someone out "on the offense." But we're talking about IoT, about monitoring. These are technical challenges. This is network nerds, and software engineers have to solve this problem with the prism of defense. This is a new paradigm. This is what we're kind of getting to. And Mark, you kind of addressed it. But this is the challenge. IoT is going to create more points that we have to defend that we suck now at defending, how are we going to get better. This is the paradox. >> Yeah, I think that's certainly accurate. And one of our problems here is that as a society we've always been open. And that was how the Internet was born. And so we have a real paradigm shift now from a world in which the U.S. was leading an open world, that was using the Internet for, I mean there have been problems with security since day one, but originally the Internet was an information-sharing exercise. And we reached a point in human history now where there are enough malicious hackers that have the capabilities we didn't want them to have, but we need to change that outlook. So, looking at things like Industrial IoT, what you're seeing is not so much that this is the battlefield in specific, it's that everything like it is now the battlefield. So in my work specifically we're focused more on economic problems. Economic conflicts and strategies. And if you look at the doctrines that have come out of our adversaries in the last decade, or really 20 years, they very much did what Phil said, and they looked at our weaknesses, and one of those biggest weaknesses that we've always had is that an open society is also unable necessarily to completely defend itself from those who would seek to exploit that openness. And so we have to figure out as a society, and I believe we are. We're running a fine line, we're negotiating this tightrope right now that involves defending the values and the foundational critical aspects of our society that require openness, while also making sure that all the doors aren't open for adversaries. And so we'll continue to deal with that as a society. Everything is now a battlefield and a much grayer area, and IoT certainly isn't helping. And that's why we have to work so hard on it. >> I want to talk about the economic piece on the next talk track of rounds. Theft, and intellectual property that you cover deeply. But Mark and Phil, this notion of Cybergeddon meets the fact that we have to be more defensive. Again, principles of openness are out there. I mean, we have open source. There is a potential path here. Open source software has been, I think, depending on who you talk to, fourth generation, or fifth, depending on how old you are, but it's now mainstream enough now. Are we ever going to get to a formula where we can actually be strong in defense as well as just offense with respect to protecting digitally? >> Phil, do you want that? >> Well, yeah, I would just say that I'm glad to hear that General Alexander is confident about our offensive capabilities. But one of the... To NSA that is conducting these offensive capabilities. When we talk about Russia, Iran, China, or even a smaller group, like let's say an extremist group or something like that, there's an integration between command and control, that we simply don't have here in the States. For example, the Panasonic and Sony examples always come to mind, as ones where there are attacks that can happen against American companies that then have larger implications that go beyond just those companies. So and this may not be a case where the NSA is even tracking the threat. There's been some legislation that's come out, rather controversial legislation about so-called hacking back initiatives and things like that. But I think everybody knows that this is already kind of happening. The real question is going to be, how does the public sector, and how does the private sector work together to create this environment where they're working in synergy, rather than at cross purposes? >> Yeah, and this brings up, I've heard this before. I've heard people talk about the fact that open source nation states can actually empower by releasing tools in open source via the Dark Web or other vehicles, to not actually have, quote, their finger prints, on any attacks. This seems to be a tactic. >> Or go through criminals, right? Use proxies, things like that. It's getting even more complicated and Alexander's talked about that as well, right? He's talked about the convergence of crime and nation-state actions. So whereas with nation-states it's already hard-attributed enough, if that's being outsourced to either whether it's patriotic hackers or criminal groups, it's even more difficult. >> I think you know, Keith is a good friend of all of ours, obviously, good guy. His point is a good one. I'd like to take it a little more extreme state and say, defense is worth doing and probably hopeless. (everyone laughs) So, as they always say, all it takes is one failure. So, we always talk about defense, but really, he's right. Offense is easy. You want to go after somebody? We can get them. But if you want to play defense against a trillion potential points of failure, there's no chance. One way to say this is, if we ignore individuals for a moment and just look at nation-states, it's pretty clear that any nation-state of size, that wants to get into a certain network, will get in. And then the question will be, Well, once they're in, can they actually do damage? And the answer is probably yeah, they probably can. Well, why don't they? Why don't they do more damage? We're kind of back to the original premise here, that there's some restraint going on. And I suspect that Keith's absolutely right because in general, they don't want to get attacked. They don't want to have to come back at them what they're about to do to your banks or your grid, and we could do that. We all could do that. So my guess is, there's a little bit of failure on our part to have deep discussions about how great our defenses either are, or are not, when frankly the idea of defense is a good idea, worthwhile idea, but not really achievable. >> Yeah, that's a great point. That comes up a lot where it's like, people don't want retaliation, so it's a big, critical event that happens, that's noticeable as a counterstrike or equivalent. But there's been discussion of the, I call it "the slow bleed" where they push the line of where that is, like slowly infiltrate, and just cause disruption and inconvenience, as a tactic. This has become something we're seeing a lot of. Whether it's misinformation campaigns on fake news, to just disrupting operations slowly over time, and just kind of, 1,000 paper cuts, if you will. Your guys' thoughts on that? Is that something you guys see out there that's happening? >> Well, you saw Iran go after our banks. And we were pushing Iran pretty hard on the sanctions. Everybody knows they did that. It wasn't very much fun for anybody. But what they didn't do is take down the entire banking system. Not sure they could, but they didn't. >> Yeah, I would just add there that you see this on multiple fronts. You see this is by design. I'm sure that Mark is talking about this in his report but... they talk about this incremental approach that over time, this is part of the problem, right? Is that we have a very kind of black or white conception of warfare in this country. And a lot of times, even companies are going to think, well you know, we're at peace, so why would I do something that may actually be construed as something that's warlike or offensive or things like that? But in reality, even though we aren't technically at war, all of these other actors view this as a real conflict. And so we have to get creative about how we think about this within the paradigm that we have and the legal strictures that we have here in this country. >> Well there's no doubt at least in my non-expert military opinion, but as someone who is a techie, been on the Internet from day one, all my life, and all those tools, you guys as well, I personally think we're at war. 100%, there's no debate on that. And I think that we have to get better policy around this and understand it better. Because it's happening. And one of the obvious areas that we see in the news everyday, it's Huawei and intellectual property theft. This is an economic impact. I mean just look at what's happening in Brexit in the U.K. If that was essentially manipulated, that's the ultimate smart bomb, is to just destroy their financial system, which ended up happening through that misinformation. So there are economic realizations here, Evan,that not only come from the misinformation campaigns and other attacks, but there's real value with intellectual property. This is the report you put out. Your thoughts? >> There's very much an active conflict going on in the economic sphere, and that's certainly an excellent point. I think one of the most important things that most of the world doesn't quite understand yet, but our adversaries certainly understand, is that wars are fought for usually, just a few reasons. And there's a lot of different justification that goes on. But often it's for economic benefit. And if you look at human history, and you look at modern history, a lot of wars are fought for some form of economic benefit, often in the form of territory, et cetera, but in the modern age, information can directly and very quite obviously translate into economic benefit. And so when you're bleeding information, you're really bleeding money. And when I say information, again, it's a broad word, but intellectual property, which our definition, here at INVNT/IP is quite broad too, is incredibly valuable. And so if you have an adversary that's consistently removing intellectual property from what I would call our information ecosystem, and our business ecosystem, we're losing a lot of economic value there, and that's what wars are fought over. And so to pretend that this conflict is inactive, and to pretend that the underlying economy and economic strength that is bolstered or created by intellectual property isn't critical would be silly. And so I think we need to look at those kinds of dynamics and the kind of Gerasimov Doctrine, and the essential doctrine of unrestricted warfare that came out of the People's Republic of China are focused on avoiding kinetic conflict while succeeding at the kinds of conflict that are more preferable, particularly in an asymmetric environment. So that's what we're dealing with. >> Mark and Phil, people waking up to this reality are certainly. People in the know are that I talk to, but generally speaking across the board, is this a woke moment for tech? This Armageddon now or later? >> Woke moment for politicians not for tech, I think. I'm sure Phil would agree with this, but the old guard, go back to when Keith was running the NSA. But at that time, there was a very clear distinction between military and economic security. And so when you said security, that meant military. And now all the rules have changed. All the ways CFIUS works in the United States have changed. The legislation is changing, and now if you want to talk about security, most major nations equate economic security with national security. And that wasn't true 10 years ago. >> That's a great point. That's really profound, I totally agree. Phil. >> I think you're seeing a change in realization in Washington about this. I mean, if you look at the cybersecurity strategy of 2018, it specifically says that we're going to be moving from a posture of active defense to one of defending forward. And we can get into the discussion about what those words mean, but the way I usually boil down is it means, going from defending, but maybe a little bit forward, to actually going out and making sure that our interests are protected. And the reason why that's important, and we're talking about offense versus defense here, obviously the reason why, from what Mark was saying, if they're already in the networks, and they haven't actually done anything, it's because they're afraid of what that offensive response could be. So it's important that we selectively demonstrate what costs we could impose on different actors for different kinds of actions, especially knowing that they're already operating inside of our network. >> That's a great point. I mean, I think that's again another profound statement because it's almost like the pin in the grenade. Once they pull it, the damage is done. Again, back to our theme, Armageddon, now or later? What's the answer to this, guys? Is it the push to policy conversation and the potential consequences higher? Get that narrative going. Is it more technical protection in the networks? What's some of the things that people are talking about and thinking about around this? >> And it's really all of the above. So the tough part about this for any society and for our society is that it's expensive to live in a world with this much insecurity. And so when these kind of low-level conflicts are going on, it costs money and it costs resources. And companies had to deal with that. They spent a long time trying to dodge security costs, and now particularly with the advent of new law like the GDPR in Europe, it's becoming untenable not to spend that defensive money, even as a company, right? But we also are looking at a deepening to change policy. And I think there's been a lot of progress made. Mark mentioned the CFIUS reforms. There are a lot of different essentially games of Whack-A-Mole being played all around the world right now figuring out how to chase these security problems that we let go too long, but there's many, many, many fronts that we need to-- >> Whack-A-Mole's a great example. The visualization of that is just horrendous. You know, not the ideal scenario. But I got to get your point on this, because one of the things that comes up all the time in our conversations in theCUBE is, the government's job is to protect our securities. So again, if someone came in, and invaded my town in Palo Alto, it's not my responsibility to fight for the town. Maybe defend my own house. But if I'm a company being attacked by Russia, or China or Iran, isn't it the government's responsibility to protect me as a citizen and the company doing business there? So again, this is kind of the confusion that people have. If somebody's going to defend their hack, I certainly got to put security practices in place. This is new ground for the government, digitally speaking. >> When we started this INVNT/IP project, it was about seven years ago. And I was told by a very smart guy in D.C. that our greatest challenge was going to be American corporations, global corporations. And he was absolutely right. Literally in this fight to protect intellectual property, and to protect the welfare even of corporations, our greatest enemies so far have been American corporations. And they lobby hard for China, while China is busy stealing from them, and stealing from their company, and stealing from their country. All that stuff's going on, on a daily basis and they're in D.C. lobbying in favor of China. Don't do anything to make them mad. >> They're getting their pockets picked at the same time. And they're trying to do business in China. They're getting their pockets picked. That's what you're saying. >> They're going for the quarterly earnings report and that's all. >> So the problem is-- >> Yeah so-- >> The companies themselves are kind of self-inflicted wounds here for them. >> Yes. >> Yeah, just to add to that, on this note, there have been some... Business to settle interest. And this is something you're seeing a little bit more of. There's been legislation through CFIUS and things like that. There have been reforms that discourage the flow of Chinese money in the Silicon Valley. And there's actually a measurable difference in that. Because people just don't want to deal with the paperwork. They don't want to deal with the reputational risk, et cetera, et cetera. And this is really going to be the key challenge, is having policy makers not only that are interested in addressing this issue, because not all of them are even convinced it's a problem, if you can believe it or not, but having them interested and then having them understand the issue in a way that the legislation can actually be helpful and not get in the way of things that we value, such as innovation and entrepreneurialism and things like that. So it's going to take sophisticated policy-making and providing incentives so that companies actually want to participate and helping to make America safer. >> You're so right about the politicians. Capitol Hill's really not educated. I mean I tell my kids, and they ask the same questions, just look at Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai present to the government. They don't even know what an Android phone versus an iPhone is, nevermind what the Internet, and how this global economy works. This has become a makeup problem of the personnel in Capitol Hill. You guys see any movement? I'm seeing some change with a new guard, a new generation of younger people coming in. Certainly from the military, that's an easy when you see people get this. But a new generation of young millennials who are saying, "Hey, why are we doing this the old way?" and actually becoming more informed. Not being the lawyer at law-making. It's actually more technically savvy. Is there any movement, any bright hope there? >> I think there's a little hope in the sense that at a time when Congress has trouble keeping the lights on, they seem to have bipartisan agreement on this set of issues that we're talking about. So, that's hopeful. You know, we've seen a number of strongly bipartisan issues supported in Congress, with the Senate, with the House, all agreeing that this is an issue for us all, that they need to protect the country. They need to protect IP. They need to extend the definition of security. There's no argument there. And that's a very strange thing in today's D.C. to have no argument between the parties. There's no error between the GOP and the Democrats as far as I can tell. They seem to all agree on this, and so it is hopeful. >> Freedom has its costs and I think this is a new era of modern freedom and warfare and protection and all these dynamics are changing, just like Cloud 2.0 is changing application developers. Guys, this is a really important topic. Thank you so much for coming on, appreciate it. Love to do a follow-up on this again with you guys. Thanks for sharing your insight. Some great, profound statements there, appreciate it. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's been a CUBE Power Panel here from Palo Alto, California with Evan Anderson, Mark Anderson, and Phil Lohaus. Thank you guys for coming on. Power Panel: The Next Battleground in Industrial IoT. Security is a big part of it. Thanks for watching, this has been theCUBE. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Washington D.C. It's theCUBE! Covering AWS Public Sector Summit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of AWS Public Sector here in beautiful Washington D.C. Springtime in D.C., there's no better time to be here. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, co-hosting along with John Furrier, always so much fun to work with you. >> Great to see you. >> And this is a very exciting event for you in particular 'cause you've been doing a lot of great reporting around the modernization of IT in government. I'd love to have you just start riffing, John. What's on your mind right now coming into this show? What are some of the questions that're burning? >> I mean clearly the most important story that needs to be told and is being talked about here in D.C. in the tech world is, for this show specifically, is the JEDI contract, the Joint Enterprise Defense Initiative. It's a word that's not being kicked around at this show because-- >> Rebecca: Nothing to do with Star Wars. >> It's literally the elephant in the room because the contract's been waiting, Oracle's been dragging it on and Oracle's been part of apparently, my opinion from my reporting, is involved in some dirty under-handed tactics against Amazon. But it's being delayed because they're suing it. And Oracle's out. They have no chance of winning the deal, it's really Microsoft and Amazon are going to get a lion's share of the business. So you have, that's the biggest story in tech in D.C. in a long time, is the role of cloud computing is playing in reshaping how government, public sector operates. Combine that with the fact that a new generation of workers are coming in who have no dogma around IT technology, how it's bought or consumed and purchased, and the overcharging that's been going on for many many years, it's been called the Beltway Bandits for a reason because of the waste and sometimes corruption. So a new generation's upon us and Amazon is the leader in making the change happen. The deal they did with the CIA a few years ago really was the catalyst. And since then, public sector and the government has realized that there's advantages to cloud, not only for operating and serving society and its citizens but also competitiveness on a global scale. So a huge transformation, that's the story we're following. That's the story that we got into from the cloud side of the business here in D.C. and that is just raging and expanding and compounded by other factors like Facebook. Irresponsibility in how they managed the data there. Elections were tied in the balance. You're seeing Brexit in the UK. You're seeing counter-terrorism organizations using the dark web and other cyber security challenges at the United States. Literally digital war is happening so a lot of people, smart people, have recognized this and it's now for the first time coming out. >> Right, and I think the other thing that we're also starting to talk much more about is the regulation. I know that you're friendly with Kara Swisher and she bangs on about this all the time. But then she said in a column the other day the problem is is that they're now guns ablazing but do they really understand it? And also, is it too feeble, too little too late? >> I mean, Kara Swisher nailed her story in the New York Times and opinion piece. And I've had similar opinions. Look it. She's been around for a long time, I've been around for a long time. I remember when Bill Clinton was president, that's when the internet was upon us, the Department of Commerce did a good job with the domain name system, they shepherded the technology and they brought it out in a way that was responsible and let government and industry have a nice balancing act with each other and the government really didn't meddle too much. But there was responsibility back then and it wasn't moving as fast. So now you look at what's happening now, the government can't just not ignore the fact that YouTube is, in essence, its own state. And it's acting irresponsibly with how they're handling their situation. You got Facebook run by a 30-something-year-old, which essentially could be as large as a government. So there's no ethics, there's no thinking behind some of the consequences that they've become. So this begs the question, as a technology hock myself, I love tech, never seen tech I didn't like. I mean I love tech. But there's a point where you got to get in there and start shaping impact on ethics and society and we're seeing real examples of how this can wildfire out of control, how tech has just become uncontrollable in a way. >> Yes, no absolutely. And so who is going to be the one to do that? I know that on the show later you're going to be talking to Jay Carney who was obviously in the Obama administration, now here at AWS. It's a well-worn path from the public sector to technology. Susan Molinari, a couple of other, David Plouffe. That is the thing though, that these people really need to get it. Before they can lay down regulations and laws. >> Again, back to why we're here and stories we're trying to tell and uncover and extract is I think the big story that's emerging from this whole world is not just the impact of cloud, we talked about that, we're going to continue to cover that. It's the societal impact and this real there there, there's the intersection of public policy and technology and science where you don't have to be a programmer, you can be an architect of change and know how it works. Then being a coder and trying to codify a government or society. I think you're going to see a new kind of skillset emerge where there's some real critical thinking into how technology can be used for good. You're seeing the trends, Hackathon For Good here, you're seeing a lot of different events where you have inclusion and diversity, bringing more perspectives in. So you got the perfect storm right now for a sea change where it won't be led by the nerds, so to speak, but geeky digital generations will change it. I think that's going to be a big story. Not just workforce changeover but real disciplines around using machine-learning for ethics, societal impact. These are the storylines. I think this is going to be a big long 10-year, 20-year changeover. >> But what will it take though? For the best and the brightest of the nerds to want to go into public service rather than go work for the tech behemoths that are making these changes? I mean that's the thing, it's a war for talent and as we know and we've discussed a lot on theCUBE, there's a big skills gap. >> I think it's been talked about a lot on the web, the millennials want to work for a company that's mission-based. What more mission-based can you look for than so unto our public service right now? John F. Kennedy's famous line, "Ask not what your country can do for you, "what you can do for you country." That might have that appeal for the younger generation because we need it! So the evidence is there and you look at what's going on with our government. There's so many inefficiencies from healthcare to tax reform to policies. There's a huge opportunity to take that waste, and this is what cloud computing and AI and machine-learning can do, is create new capabilities and address those critical waste areas and again, healthcare is just one of many many many others in government where you can really reduce that slack with tech. So it's a great opportunity. >> And where would you say, and I know you've been reporting on this for a long time, where is the government in terms of all of this? I remember not very long ago when healthcare.gov was rolled out and it was revealed that many agencies were still using floppy disks. The government is, first of all is not this monolithic thing, it's many different agencies all with their own tech agendas and with their own processes and policies. So where do you place the government in terms of its modernization right now? >> On the elected officials side, it's weak. They're really not that smart when it comes to tech. Most of the people that are involved in the elected side of the Hill are either lawyers or some sort of major that's not technical. So you can see that with Sundar Pichai from Google and Mark Zuckerberg's testimony when the basic kind of questions they're asking, it's almost a joke. So I think one, the elected officials have to become more tech-savvy. You can't regulate and govern what you don't understand. I think that something that's pretty obvious to most digital natives. And then on the kind of working class, the Defense Department and these other agencies, there's real people in there that have a passion for change and I think there's change agents, Amazon's done really well there. I think that is a piece where you're going to see a movement, where you're going to see this digital native movement where people going to be like, "There's no excuse not to do this right." And I think there's new ways to do it, I think that's going to change. So that's that. On the business side, to how the government procures technology is literally like the '80s, it's like that movie "Hot Tub Time Machine" where you get thrown back. Everything is based on 1980s procurement, 1990s procurement. I mean, shipping manuals. So all these things have to change. How do you procure cloud? If you got to go through a six-month procurement process just to spit up some servers, that's not agility. So procurement's got to change. Competitiveness, what does that mean? This Oracle deal with JEDI highlights a lot of flaws in the government. Which is Oracle's using these rules around procurement to try to stall Amazon, it's kind of like a technicality but it's so irrelevant to the reality of the situation. So procurement has to change. >> Well one of the things you said about how there's a lot of pressure to get it right. And that is absolutely true because we are dealing with national security issues, people's lives, health, these really important topics. And yet the private sector doesn't always get it right the first time either. So how would you describe the government, the federal approach to how they start to implement these new technologies and experiment with other kinds of tools and techniques? >> Well I think there's obviously some agencies that have sensitive things. CIA's a poster child in my opinion of how to do it right. The JEDI, Department of Defense is emulating that and that's a good thing. The Department of Defense is also going multicloud as they put out in their statement. Amazon for the JEDI piece which is for troops in the field. I think that every agency's going to have its own workload and those workloads should decide which cloud to use based upon the architecture of the workload. 'Cause the data needs to be in the cloud, it needs to be real time. And to take the military example, you can't have lag in military, it's not a video game, it's real life, people die. Lag can literally kill people in the field. So technology can be a betterment there but technology to avoid fighting is another one. So you have all these things going on, I think the government's got to really design everything around the workload, their mission, their applications, rather than designing around here's your infrastructure, then decide. >> One of the things we talk about all the time, almost ad nauseam, on theCUBE is digital transformation. And so how do you think about those two, private sector versus public sector? What are the big differences in terms of these institutions on their own journeys of digital transformation? >> I think the government's slower. That's an easy one to talk about. I think there's a lot of moving parts involved, you mentioned some of the procurement things, so a lot of processes. It's the same kind of equation. People process technology, except the people that process is much more complicated on the public sector side than private sector, unless it's a big company. So imagine the biggest company in the private sector side, multiply that times a hundred, that's the government. So in each agency there's a lot of things going on there. But it's getting better. I think cloud has shown that you can actually do that, the people side of things going to be addressed by this new migration of new generation of people coming in saying, "I don't really care how you did it before, "this is how we're going to do it today." The processes are going to be optimized so there's some innovation around process improvement that's going to end on the wayside and the technology everyday is coming faster and faster. Recognition, facial recognition software. Look at that. AI. These are things that are just undeniable now, they have to be dealt with. What do you do to privacy? So again, back to process. So people process technology. >> AWS is a behemoth in cloud computing. What do you want to be hearing here at this conference? They're so far ahead of Google and Microsoft but we cannot count those two companies out, of course not. But what are you looking for for key messaging at this show? >> Well I'm looking forward to seeing Andy Jassy's Fireside Chat with Teresa Carlson tomorrow. I'm interested in some of the use cases coming out of Teresa Carlson's top customers in public sector, again it's global public sector so it's not just in North America here in the United States. I'm interested in also understanding what's real and what's not real around the fear, uncertainty and doubt that a lot of people have been putting on Amazon. Because I see Amazon posturing in a way that's saying go faster, make change and it's not so much that they want to monopolize the entire thing, they're just moving faster. And I think Andy Jassy yesterday saying that they welcome regulation is something that they're trying to push the regulators on. So I think they welcome change. So I want to understand if Amazon really wants to go faster or is there an agenda there. (laughs) What's going on? >> I know, methinks these tech titans are asking for a little too much regulation right now. I mean obviously Mark Zuckerberg has also said, "Please regulate us, I can't do this alone." And here we have Andy Jassy yesterday saying those same things. >> Andy Jassy said on stage yesterday with Kara Swisher, "We can't arrest people." So if their tech goes bad, they're only beholden to the consequences as a private entity. They're not the law so this is where again, back to top story here is that, what is the role of government? This change is here. It's not going away, it's only going to get faster. So the sooner the elected officials and all the agencies get out in front of the digital transformation, the sooner the better. Otherwise it's going to be a wrecking ball. >> Well I cannot wait to dig into more of this over the next two days with you, here at AWS Public Sector. >> All right. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier, you are watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen, right Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco for cubes. Coverage of Google next twenty nineteen. Hashtag Google. Next nineteen, Google's Cloud Conference, where their customers, developers all come together Cubes. Three days of coverage. Day one. I'm John forward, my Coast, Dave Aloft as well. Astute many men Who's out there doing some reporter? Next guess Allison. Wagon filled is the CMO of Google Cloud. Great to see you. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here, >> so I got to say, looking out on the floor here, we're in the middle of the floor. Great demographics. A lot of developers, lot of enterprise customers. A lot of you know, sea levels will also enterprise architects and cloud architects. So this is not just a developer fest. This is a business developer conference. >> Yes. So that's been a real change this year. Not only have we increase the numbers I think I mentioned earlier that we have thirty thousand people are actually able even more than that. We had a cap registration we sold out last week. But the composition is different this year because this year we have over seventy percent from enterprise companies and then within enterprise Cos it's Dev's decision makers, business leaders. And then we have a whole executive track of leader Circle program as well. So it's been a really great mix of different energy, different questions in different sessions. >> You guys do a great job in event kudos to the team original Google Io was a great event that continues to be the consumer side on Google. You guys have that same kind of grew swing going on a lot of sessions. Take him in to explain the theme of the show. What's going on around the events? Breakouts? What's the focus? >> Yes, so the focus? Well, there's a theme and a couple different levels. The broad theme is a cloud like no other, because we've introduced a lot of new, different features and products and programs. We introduced Antos this morning, which was really revolutionary way of using containers broadly multi cloud, high but cloud. So it's from a product standpoint, but it's also a cloud like no other, because it's about the community that's here, and it's truly a partnership with our customers and our partners about building this cloud together, and we see the community as a really key part of that. It's really corta Google's values around openness, open source technology and really embracing the broader community to build the cloud together. >> And I thought was interesting. The Kino was phenomenal. You had the CEO of Google come out Sundar Pichai and the new CEO on the job for ten weeks. T K >> Sommers. Korean. Yes. Lot of action >> going on a Google right now. >> Yeah, it's been great to have Thomas. Diane was phenomenal and building the business. It's wonderful. Have Sundar here. He's got a lot of commitment, really engaged with our customers. And so it's a lot of energy and a lot of excitement. A Google. >> I thought the vory class act of Thomas Curry and his first words on stage at the CEO was to give props. The Diane Green very, very respected, that was >> great, was very gracious of, Thomas >> said. Sorry, he said. The press, sir, that one of things I really like about Google is not afraid of hard problems, So I wanted to ask you a CMO I always asked the most about brand promise. What's the brand promise? That you want customers and the community to take away from an event like this? >> So the brand promise has a couple different areas. First and foremost, we want our customers to be successful with their customers. And so we think, really holistically about lessons. Make sure that we're delivering the cloud technologies so that customers can really serve everyone that they want to serve, whether it be a retailer that wants to create a wonderful, offline and online experience, whether it's a health care provider that wants to ensure that every doctor, it knows all of the right data about all the patients or within a hospital. And so that's the way we're always thinking is how do we ensure that we help our customers set up to be successful? >> So one of the big teams we heard this morning was the industry focus, and you just referenced that again. It seems to be an increasingly important part of the messaging and the technologies that you're creating, and it ties into digital transformation. You seeing every industry transform data is at the heart of that transformation. You're seeing big companies traverse different industries. So what if you could talk about the industry focus? Uh, where'd that come from? Where do you see it going? >> Yes, So there's really three core parts of what we've been talking about today. First and foremost is the infrastructure and ensuring that we have the world's best infrastructure. Then, on top of that, it's ensuring that we have all the right applications to help with digital transformation. And then, as part of that further, is the industry solutions. Because in our six focus industries, we want to make sure that we're really developing the right applications with the right solutions and half a deep expertise that companies are looking for so that we can really part with partner with them and really, truly be innovative. And we could feel much more comfortable being innovative. But we really understand our customer problems >> keep Part of that is the global s eyes. You look out here, you see all the big names I won't name because I'll forget one. But there's two obvious ones right there because once you start to see those guys come into the ecosystem, that's when you can partner and get really deep industry expertise globally, >> I agree. And so we do have a great partnerships that said here with Accenture in tow, Lloyd and Antos or three of them, many more that we were working really closely with. And there really are an extension of what we want to build because we know that we will not be able Teo create every single last mile industry solution and every single industry, and working with those companies really helps us. >> I was on the plane last night watching the game. Of course, I love you guys got to see it. You're probably appear busy, but I focused. Google was all over the this year, >> so this is our second year of our partnership with the law, and it's been great. There's a couple dimensions to that partnership. First and foremost, we help them analyze eighty years worth of data. And through all of that analysis, we've been working with him about making predictions about games in helping them understand players and coaches and teams better. Everything from creating brackets. Teo, how do you fan experience? And then as part of that, we also had opportunity to do some advertising within their games. So you may have seen some of the TV spots that we did, which was about analyzing that data. We put ourselves on the line by making predictions during the game about what we thought would happen based on all of our analysis. And then the Big Chef this year was we included students, so it was really studies. Last year we created all these models, but we did it within Google. We had Google, Debs and Google engineers creating prediction models. We said, like, What if we brought students in tow? Help us? So we recruited thirty or so all star students around the country from their schools, brought them together. They learned DCP like that. It was awesome. And then they started working together doing predictions. And so a lot of what you saw in the Games and on our hub was actually students using Google Claude platform to make predictions about the games. >> So just get this right. The reference on stage by T K students. So you had data from the that was exposed to the students. They had a hackathon. How much lead time that they have? What was that >> did everything with thirty days. So they hack it on was about two months ago or so. But within the last thirty days, they did all of these different projects and they were actually doing really creative things about trying to come up with new types of stats like explosiveness. What does that mean? Does that mean that you move in closer to the basket or does it mean that here they're coming up, the stats around pace of game and different elements of the place? It was really fun. >> How many slam dunk this, Miss Fowles? So >> question, Who do you who you're rooting for? I was >> writing from Virginia. You know, Let's say I >> was right for >> Virginia after my bracket got busted, so I was allowed to kind of change a little bit. And they're Michigan. Once they were gone, I was like, >> So I use no way. I but I hit ninety ninth percentile. So you go. I had Michigan in Michigan State rather in Virginia in my Final Four for Michigan State. Lost, but still, I would have been >> That's pretty good >> night, point nine. So what is with what kind of predictions were the students doing well, >> predictions about everything from, well, last night we had some predictions about the number two point last. We had about how many different times we're going to exchange like the ball will go back and forth between teams. We had predictions about three pointers and one game everything. So it's been really fun. Teo work with >> that kind of in game predictions. To see that a lot. >> You probably saw some stats real >> probability of, ah, victory, which of course, last night. Forget it. I mean, it's changed so quickly. >> Great program. One of those I want to ask you change gears is you have a book in the press room called customer Voices. So this has been a focus, and I think a lot of people have been Lego Google's great tact, but not a lot of customers, which you guys air debunking with. Not only this, but here to show shown the logo slide really kind of showing the traction from a customer's standpoint. >> Yes, about >> the focus on the customer. How does that change? How you doing your job? How is the tech rolling out? Can you share some insight into customer focused. >> Yeah, this has been a really big step change this year. We have over four hundred customers speaking throughout this event, and then we have a number of them that are on stage in the keynotes telling real stories. Two years ago, we had some customers speaking and they would say, I'm looking. I'm dabbling and this But now they're making rial kind of bet The company decisions using our technology. And so this customer voices is looking at those companies. We have something called the customer innovation serious this afternoon, where the CIA of HSBC will be talking about their evolution and Gogo Cloud. Two years ago, Darrell West was on stage talking about just kind of what they will be getting. Two Dio with Google Cloud Platform And now here we are two years later, when they've made a lot of progress and we'LL be sharing their stories that the custom innovation Siri's is one of my favorite parts. It next, >> you know, we cover a lot of events. David eyes were like two ESPN of tech or game day. We've gotten the shows, we see a lot of events and you kind of hear the key words over and over again. Soon these events here we're hearing scale, which we've heard all the time. Google scales, scales, scales solve all our problems. But we're hearing more about customers. OK, this has been a big focus. How have you guys shifted internally? Because this seems to been around for a while. Like you said, I think it's a step function from what we're seeing as well. What's going on internally. How you guys mobilizing, How you guys taking this to the mark? Because you've got great partition. So Cisco onstage VM wears even up there. You got an ecosystem developing a lot of momentum. >> So we're truly this year Enterprise ready to use a buzz word that comes up. So two years ago, we still had some holes in some of our technology stack, and we're still really building to go to market teams. We still vastly scaling that so absolutely growing there. But we're in a whole different place as a business where we are able to serve really large enterprises at scale. McKesson just announced sixth largest company that they are moving and working with us a Google cloud. I mean, so these air major companies that are making big decisions to work with us. And so it's at a whole different level this year, and we're really proud that the customers have chosen to work with us, and we're building the organization to ensure that their successful. So that's our customer success program. That's ensuring we have the right kind of customer engineers working hand in hand with our customers. So it's a big focus ever. Whole group. It's a focus where Thomas Kurian has a lot of background serving enterprise customers at Oracle for twenty years, bringing that expertise. So you'LL see that everywhere. So I'm glad you picked up on that and feel it because it's really permeates everything we're doing at Google clouds, >> and it's been a good, positive change. The results of their What's the focus for you As you look forward, It's a lot to do. You guys are a great opportunity. I always say Google's dark horse now Samson's got a good lead out there being first in, but you guys have a lot of tech. You got the customer focus. You got a lot of momentum on the tech side. Cloud native Open source. Partner ecosystem Developing customer ecosystem. So kind of ball's in your court, so to speak. >> You feel really well, position we It's early. So in the whole market, people seem to think that I like all these decisions, but it's really still eighty percent of workload Zoran data centers of these big enterprises, everybody who's here with us right now. And most companies were choosing a multi club strategy this morning. We announced a major product and those that really enables the multi cloud strategy so enables Google to really be at the center of that multi cloud and provide the services using containers and a lot of the biggest best advances right now. And so as we scale our go to market, we can really bring this technology that way here, over and over again, is the best technology in the business. Yeah, we had it really had to go to market in place to bring it to customers. And this is really where we're taking it so we can help get this awesome technology. It's so fun is a marketer to them, bring it to everybody. >> I always say it so early. The wave is just getting started more ways behind it. I'm very impressed. That intrigue also by the rebranding of the Google Cloud platform what you guys announced last kind of hybrid and those is interesting because it's a rebrand slash new set of integration points Sisco again on stage kind of integrating with your container platform is a key key story that I think is nuanced but kind of points to a whole new Google. What was behind the rebranding? Can you just share some insight that what the commerce she's like Google Cloud Platforms is descriptive. But I mean, >> sister, thanks >> Cloud Services platform when we chose that name last year is when we wanted to Alfa with a product and frankly, within the marketing team, he kind of knew was always a placeholder name. And then the debate was, What do we change the name when you go to Beta, which we did a couple months ago? Or when we go to went to Gaea and we decided this would be a great opportunity to change the name, so we always knew it was going to change the name. Picking a name is always complicated, and so we spent a lot of time thinking about what way wanted that name too mean and what we wanted to stand for. And we really liked Anthros. It's a Greek word. It is a nod to the Greek aspects of the history of the product. With Cooper, Netease, Andhis, Teo and other areas. It means the blossom it means to grow. It means all. And so you many words like Anthology and things like that. So we'd liked both what it meant, And we also liked that with all Namie decisions, it's easy to spell. It's easy to find. It's all great, >> and it's super >> booming in California. Here as we speak. Well, ironic. >> It has an international flavor to it. But you guys, you guys are taking this show overseas, right? They've got a big show in London in November, I know and yes, >> be in Tokyo in July at next and then London in November. And then we do it between all of these. What we call Clouds Summit Siri's, which are in country slightly smaller. But we bring a lot of the same technology, and speakers and sessions just have a slightly scaled down version. >> Intimate. We really appreciate your support. We love doing the Cube hearing a lot of Czech athletes, as we say here on the show floor. Lot of knowledge, good customer converses. Alison's Thanks for sharing the inside congratulates on the great >> show, so I left be here. Thanks >> for rebranding as the market shifts. Great time to have a rebrand, certainly when it means something more. Multi cloud hybrid cloud Google Cloud Platform now and those that cube bring you live coverage here from the floor at Google next twenty nineteen. Stay with us for more after this short break.

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes live Google next nineteen coverage. I'm General Dave Violante. We're here for three days of wall to wall coverage, breaking down all the content from Google Clouds. Big conference here, Google next twenty nineteen or next gas joke of a vice president. Google Data Centers spans all the data centers that Google and Google Cloud deploy. He's the man in charge of thousands of full time employees, thousands of contractors, tens of thousands of construction worker. He's building out the infrastructure and footprint to make the cloud work for Joe. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you both Very much. >> So. Sin DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google, kicked off the Kino, the new CEO of Google Cloud. Thomas Korean came on always ten weeks into the job. Clearly, the investment in Google cloud new building on separate from campus. So Google and Google Cloud or two separate groups, has been reported clearly by us and others. But at the end of the day, you're gonna run all the stuffs on somewhere. So you know, you guys have deep, deep experience. I know personally and following Google and covering Google thie excellence and engineering the excellence in building on data centers. What is the status of just quickly Take a minute to explain how it's organized? Get Google proper, Which is where Ron knows Google, Google Search, etcetera, Gmail and Google Cloud. How's that? How's that operate? What's some of the data points? >> Okay, um so, as you know, the head of the teams that do everything from procuring land and writing energy contracts and buying renewable energy to designing, building and operating all the data centers. Cloud is one of my largest customers. But my other customers air search and ads and Gmail and G sweetened. So, really, our data centers I Google are built for the entire Google enterprise, and cloud happens to be one of our largest internal customers in that enterprise. >> How about some of stats countries, regions, data centers? What's the new one? Because you have regions, you availability zones. Talk about some of the stats inside the numbers >> s o what the starting at the Google level, we have data centers in four continents. So we're in North America South America, Asia and Europe. Of course, we have a probably one of the world's largest global private networks with, you know, thirteen undersea cables that are our own and hundreds of thousands of miles of dark fiber and lit fiber that way operate like I said, probably one of the world's largest networks we have in in Europe were in five countries in Europe, were in two countries in Asia. We're in one country in South America, and that's at the Google and North America. Of course, we have many, many, many sites across all of North America. That's it. The Google level now Cloud has nineteen regions that they operate in and fifty eight zones. So each region, of course, has multiple zones in it. You know, we we cover. Google has presence in over two hundred countries worldwide, so really, it is truly global operations. >> So the two hundred countries is Google wide nineteen cloud regions and fifty eight availability zones. That's Google Cloud. That's great. Okay, so do you not sort of mix infrastructure for cloud and things like Gmail and maps and search is that is that correct? This their separate infrastructures or >> it's It's not so separate infrastructure. So when when my team builds a data center, any one of our internal customers could be in that day this up. In addition to the Google owned and operated data centers, we also have some sites that are least in certain regions, and Cloud may be occupying those. But regardless of whether it's owned or leased, its the same hardware in there, it's the same operation staff that Aeryn they're the same expertise, the same deep knowledge about operating cloud environments. And so, regardless of whether we built it or we leased it >> from a CEO Syrian from a CEO's perspective, it's the same cell A nobody availabilities owners. I mean, that's what really matters, right? Okay, >> talk about the scale because one of the things I liked in the Kino Sundar is awesome. And Chris, Great keynote, You scale multiple times. He also had a clever comin around steal, she's said before publicly, amount of steel that goes into building this. This gives you guys large scale. Your guys are building on massive. It's like smart cities almost cause of your own like country, pretty much on the infrastructure. What are some of the key learning that you guys had because you have to be very efficient. Google likes to solve hard problems. You guys have done some things with sustainability. Specifically, talk about some of the learnings. As you guys have been building out these data centers for years with cloud on a massive expansion, you gotta watch the environment. You got to do some things. What if some of the learnings with some of the notable accomplishments you guys air forging on and what are some of the goals? >> So I googled we've been We've been at this for two decades. For more than twenty years we've been building and innovating on hyper efficiency, hyper scale, basically trying to build infrastructure that was more sustainable than had ever been thought possible. And then as our cloud business started to expand and boom, frankly, we set apart Teo build the world's most sustainable cloud. And really, what that means is that you know, we were the first company to announce that we were buying one hundred percent renewable energy, new renewable P P A's to match one hundred percent of our consumption and in twenty seventeen, we achieve that. That was after being carbon neutral for ten years before that. So going all the way back to two thousand seven were a carbon neutral company by mostly buying, buying high quality carbon offsets. Then we decided that no, we want to advance the transition, Teo renewable and sustainable energy. So we started buying direct power purchase agreements for wind and solar on DH. And then in twenty seventeen, we announced that we had matched one hundred percent. What that means is that we've acquired over three gigawatts of new solar and wind power purchase agreements, Mom. And now we're taking it a step further. We have a very ambitious kind of moonshot. Arguably, too, not only match our consumption, but match it twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three sixty five. So you can imagine the complexity with this because the wind doesn't always blow, the sun doesn't always shine. And so that's going to take moonshot thinking in order for us to get there. But we feel so strongly about it were so committed to this cause that we've got a dedicated team working on this right now. >> So it's not just squeezing tea. You'ii out of the data center I'm sure you're doing that, but absolutely doing >> that. Since the earliest days I've been at Google for over eleven years. From the very first day I got there, I was completely blown away with the numbers that I was seeing about the Peewee and for maybe your audience. Pee Wee's a measure of efficiency in the data center, and and at the time, like back two thousand eight, Cooper was achieving numbers that the EPA thought wouldn't be achieved until, like, twenty twenty. And so I started to dig in and look how, and it was astounding to me the lengths that the company had gone tio toe optimize every single step of the way from the high voltage transformers in our own dedicated substations. Excuse me that that are much more efficient than typical. You know, utility transformers all the way through, minimizing the number of transformations going from grid level like three hundred forty five thousand bolts down to server voltage level, minimising the number of transformations reinventing the way people think about cooling. When we when I got to Google, I was also amazed. Our data centers are running it like roughly about eighty degrees Fahrenheit most data centers run it like sixty five degrees are data centers consume about half of the energy of a traditional enterprise data center at the same size. And in addition to that, we're producing about seven times the computer capacity for the same amount of Watts that enterprise data >> centers comes from. A from a practice of engineering really purpose engineering from day one into the overall holistic plan of the building. >> It's a relentless focus on efficiency and innovation. Right from Day one, when I got there, it had already been well in motion, but it's optimizing across the entire stack. It's optimizing software to be efficient, optimizing the server architecture er, to be more efficient, optimizing the power supplies in the server's optimizing the racks. You know, designing the racks to be working with the cooling equipment, specifically, are cooling systems are unique to Google. There they're not traditional air conditioning units that you would buy for traditional data centers. Sometimes, you know, we'll sight data centers where we can use natural environment in Finland. Our data centers right on the Gulf of Finland, and we use cold seawater from the Gulf of Finland to cool the data center. >> So to be clear, you're doing quite a bit of vertical integration, whether it's your own transformers of power supplies and other equipment, right? Try >> fiberoptic across the K Atlantica, Sundar pointed out. That's what I was doing your own stuff, absolutely officious as you pass on in savings to the customers and society with the sustainability piece. That's right. You have two angles on that. >> Really, it's you know it's good business, of course, because the bottom line. But more importantly, it's also the right thing for us to do. We feel very strongly that we need to be responsible for our impact on the environment and to minimize that impact and to be accountable for it. And we realized that the only way we can truly be accountable for our impact on the environment and for our energy consumption is to have it matched with renewable energy twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, >> not take a side track you. But you know, we've been covering the tech business for many, many decades, and certainly recently tech kind of got a bad name headlines. But I always look for tech stories that you know there was a text bad for people. There's always a good story. I think this is an example of tech for good. You guys have taken real engineering, building large scale systems and facilities, have software running on it. It's really a tech for good story. Congratulations on that. That's awesome work. Now I want to kind of asked you put you on the spot here because I think one conversation we're hearing a lot and I want him Get your expert opinion on this could be Google and also a CZ a person in the industry. Security in the supply chain has come up a lot in terms of whether chips have been hacked. Wave heard things like that in the story. Some of them have proved to be misinformation. Fake news. But you gotta watch security. Google's really hard core on security because you you lived that. How do you look at the supply chain? Is if you're not just throwing contractors at this, you could thinking of a realistic ground zero engineering approach to a holistic picture. How do you guys manage security challenge in the supply chain? Throughout the facilities from chips Teo, access things of that nature. >> So there's two aspects. There's always the logical and the physical security aspect from the physical security aspect in our warehouses that we manage. Of course, we apply the same rigorous standards for physical security. That way, do it their data centers. And that's multi layer in various different types of security technologies that we apply. And but on the logical side, you know, I think you're probably familiar with our Titan chips that way developed and those tightened ships are put in all of our servers, and from the time that they're built to the time that they're in the facility, you know those those chips that's our are securing the servers and your logical side. Though the you know, my colleagues on our information security team are truly the experts that could address that. >> That's where the software shines. That's right, and this is not just one. It's not a silo. You gotta deal physical build. It's kind of a bigger is It's a holistic, any rated model >> it is, and this is, you know, from from the data center industry perspective for us. Long as there's been it, there's always been the debate between facilities and I t right. When I got to Google, I was also so relieved to see that was all technical infrastructure and the systems. The software that runs on those those data centers are all under the same technical infrastructure group. And so you know it all. The buck stops at *** >> For years, there was a discussion and generalize about those groups coming together, and I think the way they come together is the cloud. Frankly, because you haven't seen a lot of change within organizations of ight and facilities really working together, that's right. >> Well, Joe, thanks for coming on the Q. Thanks for sharing your insight. Final word. What's the thoughts folks watching out there who were trying to understand how to bring technology into facilities? In general, people still have data centers they still have on premise activity, from lightbulbs to whatever any, any learnings in parting wisdom. Folks watching there in the facilities and or physical building space on howto build out these, whether it's smart cities with its construction and experiences, you could share with folks out there looking to build a ballistic long term plan. >> Yeah, there's a there's a few things first of all, we've published all of our energy efficiency, best practices. And so I encourage everyone to take a look at those best practices because the best you know, energy savings is the energy not consumed in the first place. So do all the right things to reduce the overall energy consumption in the first place to we want to help further the transition to renewable energy. And so we've published a lot about our power purchase agreements and a lot of the policy work that enables us to do. Those is also set in place for other large energy consumers that want to do the same thing. So our policy work can help Teo allow others to do the same thing. The third part of our sustainability aspect is really a circular economy. You know, we want Teo. I have zero waste to a landfill. We've currently achieved ninety one percent diversion of all of our data center operations, so ninety one percent is diverted to landfill. But we have a objective of one hundred percent note note no waste to a landfill. And then that means you have to do smart things like better re use better recycling better reselling of products that are still good but maybe out of date for for your use and then just ended off. We've really invested in our machine learning and a intelligence both on the data center operations. We have now ml running our some of our cooling systems in fully autonomous mode and doing a much better job of matching the cooling needs to the workloads at the time. And we took that same learning with our deepmind group, partnered with them, and we've applied that Teo are a wind farm now as well, so that they can better predict what the output of wind farm is going to be thirty six hours in advance. That allows the operators of the grid to better bring on more more energy and get higher value Out of that that win dinner. >> Great engineering story at scale. Congratulations. Love the societal impact tech for good. Congratulations. Love to have you back talk about the impact of a i ot Joe, Thanks for coming on the Yeah, it's all coming together with our arms. Jean. A center is not going away. House in the cloud needs to run on servers and has to be done in a engine engineered fashion. Google's leading the charge there. It's Cube Live coverage day, one of three days of coverage will be right back after this short break.