>> (soft music) >> Presenter: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back everyone to the CUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021. I'm your host, John furry with theCUBE. Our next guest Manish Chawla who's the industry general manager of energy, resources and manufacturing, a great guest to break down this next generation of infrastructure modern applications and changing the business in the super important areas he's regulated verticals. Manish, it's great to see you. Thank you for coming back on theCUBE. >> Thank you John. Good to meet you. >> You know, this is the area where I've been saying for years the cloud brings great scale horizontally scalable data, but at the end of the day, AI and automation really has to be specialized in the verticals. In this we're going to see the action the ecosystems for connecting. This is a big deal here I think this year, transformation is the innovation, innovation at scale. This seems to be the underlying theme that we've been reporting on. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see this Fourth Industrial Revolution as you say, coming about. Can you define for us what that means? And when you say that, what does it mean for customers? >> Yeah, sure, sure. So, you know, in sort of simple terms all the technologies that we see around us, whether it's AI we talk about AI, we talk about 5G, we talk about Edge Cloud Robotics. So the application of those to the physical world in some sense in the industrial world is what we define as the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Essentially, it's the convergence between the humans, the physical aspect, like the machines and the cyber either digital aspects, bringing that together. So companies can unlock the value from the terabytes and petabytes of data that our connected world is now able to produce. >> How does the IOT world come in? We've been again, I did a panel I think two years ago called you know the industrial IOT Armageddon. And it was really kind of pointing. It was kind of provocative title, but the point was you know, the industrial connections are all devices now and they're connected to the network security super important. This industrial revolution includes this new edge. >> It's got to be smarter and intelligent. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, absolutely. It is about the edge. It's about devices. It's about delivering capturing the data from the umpteen devices. You know, we've recently heard about the chip shortage which gives you an idea that there is so much utilization of compute power everywhere in the world. And the world is becoming very software defined. So whether it's software defined machines software defined products, the washing machines that we use at home, the cars we use home, everything is gradually becoming, not gradually I'd say rapidly becoming intelligent. And so that edge or IOT is the foundation stone of everything we're talking about. >> Well, you mentioned software on a chip SOC that's a huge mega wave coming. That's going to bring so much more compute into smaller form factors which leads me to my next question, which kind of, I'm kind of answering for myself but I'm not a manufacturing company but why should they care about this trend from a business perspective besides the obvious new connection points? What's really in it for them? >> Yeah. So big topic right now is this topic of resilience, right? So that's one aspect. This, the pandemic has taught us that resilience is a core objective. The second objective, which is front and center of all CEOs or CEOs is out-performance. And so what we're seeing is out-performance are investing in technology for many goals, right? So it's either sustainability which is a big topic these days, and a huge priority. It's about efficiency. It's about productivity. It's also now more and more about delivering a much stronger customer experience, right? Making your products easier to use much easily consumable as well. So if you, when you pull it all together it's an end to end thinking about using data to drive those objectives of out-performance as well as resilience. >> What's the progress being made so far on the manufacturing industry on this front? I mean, is it moving faster or you mentioned accelerating but where is the progress bar right now? >> So I think as we came into 2020, I would have described it as we were starting to enter the chapter two where companies were moving from experimentation to really thinking of scaling this. And what we found is the pandemic really caused a big focus on these, as Winston Churchill has been attributed the quote "Never waste a good crisis." A lot of CEOs, a lot of executives and leadership really put their energy into accelerating digital transformation. I think we really, two thirds have been able to accelerate their digital transformation. So the good news is, you know companies don't have to be convinced about this anymore. They're really, their focus is on where should I start? Where should I focus? And what should I do next? Right, is really the focus. And they are investing in sort of two types of technologies is the way we see it. What I would call foundational technologies because there's a recognition that to apply the differentiating technologies like AI and capturing and taking value of the data you need a strong architectural foundation. So whether it's cybersecurity, it's what we call ITOT integration connecting the devices back to the mothership. And it's also applying cloud but cloud in this context is not about typically what we think as public cloud or a central spot. It's really bringing cloud-like technologies also to the edge or to the plant or to the device itself whether it's a mobile device or a physical device. And that foundation is that recognition that you've got to have the foundation that you can build your capabilities on top. Whether it's for customers or clients or colleagues. >> That's a great insight on the architecture. I think that's a successful playbook. It sounds so easy. I do agree with you. I think people have said this is a standard now hybrid cloud, the edge pretty clear visibility on the architecture of what to do or what needs to be done, how to do it, all other story. So I have to ask you, we hear of these barriers. There's always blockers. I think COVID's released some of those relieved some of those blockers because people have to force their way into the transformation but what are those barriers that are stopping the acceleration for customers to achieve the benefits that they need to see? >> Yeah. So I think one or one key barrier is a recognition that most of our plants or manufacturing facilities or supply chains really run in a brownfield manner. I, there's so many machines so many facilities that have been built over decades. So there's a proliferation of different ages of devices, machines, et cetera. So making sure that there is a focus on laying out a foundation, that's a key barrier. There is also a concern that, you know the companies have around cybersecurity. The more you connect the more you increase the attack surface. And we know that that hacks and so on are, are a dominant issue now whether it's for ransomware or for other malicious reasons. And so modernizing the foundation and making sure you're doing it in a secure way those are the key concerns that executives have. And then another key barrier I see is making sure that you have a key, key core objective and not making too many different varied experimentation beds. So keeping a focus on what's the core use case of benefit you're after and then what's the foundation to make sure that you're going after it. Like I said, whether it's quality or productivity or such like. >> So the keys to success, if I get this right is you have the right framework for this as you say, industry 4.0 you got to understand the collaborative dynamics and then have an ecosystem. >> Yeah. Can you unpack those three things? Because take me through that. You got to the framework, the collaboration and the ecosystem. What does that mean specifically? >> So the way I take the simplest way to think of it is the amount of work and effort that all companies have to put in, is so great in front of them. The opportunities are so great as well that nobody can hire all the smart people that are needed to achieve the goals. Everybody has their own specific I would say focus and capabilities they bring to bear. So the collaboration between manufacturers the collaboration between operational technology companies like the Siemens, ABB, Schlumberger, et cetera and IT technology companies like ourselves that three-part collaboration is sort of the heart of what I see as ecosystems coming together. The other dimensionality of ecosystems is also looking at it from a supply chain or a value chain perspective cause how something becomes more intelligent or smarter or more effective is also being able to work across the supply chain or value chain. So those are our key focus areas make sure we are collaborating across value chains and supply chains, as well as collaborating with manufacturers and OT, operational technology companies to be able to bring these digital capabilities with the right capabilities of operational technology companies into the manufacturers. >> If I asked you, how are you doing that? What specifically would you say? I mean, how are you collaborating? What's some examples give some examples of this enaction. >> Certainly. So we recently announced over the last say, nine months or so three strategic, very transformative partnerships. The first one I'll share with you is with Schlumberger. Schlumberger is the world's largest oil field services company. And now also the world's largest distill technology company for the oil and gas industry. So we've collaborated with them to bring hybrid cloud to the digital platform so they now can deploy their capabilities to any customer regardless of whether they want it in country or on a public cloud. Another example is we've established a data platform with Schlumberger for the oil and gas industry, to be able to bring again that data platform to any location around the world. The advantage of hybrid, the advantage of AI. With EVB, what we've done is we've taken our smart sync IT security connected with their products and capabilities for operational systems. And now are delivering an end to end solution that you can get cyber alerts or issues coming from manufacturing systems dry down to right up to an IT command center where you're seeing all the events and alerts so that they can be acted upon right away. So that's a great example of collaborating with IT from a security point of view. The third one is industrial IOT with Siemens and we've partnered with Siemens to deliver the MindSphere private cloud edition. Delivered on our red hat hybrid cloud. So this is an example where we are able to take our horizontal technologies, apply it with their verticals smarts and deep industry context put our services capabilities on top of it so they can deliver their innovations anywhere >> Manish is such an expert on this such a great leader on this area and I have to ask you you know, you've been in this mode of evangelizing and leading teams and building solutions around digital re platforming or whatever you want to call it, renovations. >> Manish: Right >> What's the big deal now, if you had to, I mean, it seems like it's all coming together with red hat under the covers, you get distributed networks with the Edge. It's all kind of coming together now for the verticals because you got the best of both worlds. Programmable scalable infrastructure with modern software applications on top. I mean, you've been even in the industry for many many waves, why is this wave so big and important? >> So I think there is no longer the big reason why it's important is I think there's no reason why companies have to be convinced now that the clarity is there that this needs to happen so that's one. The second is, I think there's a high degree of expectation among consumers, among employees and among customers as well, that everything that we touch will be intelligent. So these technologies really unlock the value unlock the value, and they can be deployed at scale that's really, I think what we're seeing as the focus now. And being able to deliver the innovation anywhere whether someone wants it at the Edge next to a machine that's operating, or be able to look at how a manufacturing facility or different product portfolio is doing in the boardroom. It's all available. And so that shop floor, the top floor connection is what everybody's aiming for but we also now call it Edge to enterprise. >> And everything works better, the employees are happy people are happy, stakeholders are happy. Manish great insight. Thank you for sharing here on theCUBE for Think 2021. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Absolutely thanks John for having me. >> Okay. I'm John Furry host theCUBE for IBM Think 2021. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

>>from around the >>globe. It's the cube with digital >>coverage of IBM >>Think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 I'm your host john ferry with the cube. Our next guest is Michelle well who's the industry General manager of Energy resources manufacturing. Great guest to break down this next generation of infrastructure, modern applications and changing the business and the super important areas is regulated verticals. Great to see you. Thank you for coming back on the queue. >>Thank you john good to meet you. >>You know this is the area where I've been saying for years the cloud brings great scale, horizontally scalable data but at the end of the day AI and automation really has to be specialized in in the verticals and this. We're going to see the action ecosystems for connecting. This is a big deal here think this year transformation is the innovation innovation at scale. It seems to be the underlying theme that we've been reporting on. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see this fourth industrial revolution as you say, coming about. Can you define for us what that means and when you say that, what does it mean for customers? >>Yeah, sure, sure. So you know, in in sort of simple terms, all the technologies that we see around us whether it's a I we talk about a I we talked about five G. We talk about edge cloud, robotics. So the application of those to the physical world in some sense, in the industrial world is what we define as uh as the fourth industrial revolution. Essentially it's the convergence between the humans, the physical aspect by the machines and the cyber at the digital aspects, bringing that together so companies can unlock the value from the terabytes and petabytes of data that's that are connected world is now able to produce, >>How does the IOT world come in? We've been again, I did a panel I think two years ago called you know the industrial IOT Armageddon. And it was really kind of point, it was kind of provocative title but the point was you know, the industrial connections are all devices now and they're connected to the network security. Super important, this industrial revolution includes this new edge, it's gotta be smarter and intelligent. What's your take on that? >>Absolutely, it is about the edge, it's about devices, it's about delivering capturing the data from the emptying devices. We've recently heard about the chip shortage which gives you an idea that there is so much utilization of compute power everywhere in the world and the world is becoming very software defined. So whether it's software defined machines, software defined products, the washing machines that he that we use at home, the cars we use at home, there everything is gradually becoming, not gradually, I'd say rapidly becoming intelligent and so that edge or IOT is the foundation stone also everything we're talking about. >>Well you mentioned software on a chip, S. O. C. Um, that's a huge mega wave coming. That's gonna bring so much more compute into smaller form factors. Which leads me to my next question, which kind of, I'm kind of answering for myself, but I'm not a manufacturing company, but why should they care about this trend from a business perspective? Besides the obvious new connection points? What's really in it for them? >>Yes, it's a big topic right now, is, is this topic of resilience? Right, So that's one aspect uh, this the pandemic has taught us that resilience is a core objective. The second objective which which is front and center of all CEOS, or CEOS, is out performance. And so what we're seeing is is out performance, are investing in technology for many goals, right? So it's either sustainability which is a big topic these days and huge priority. Uh it's about efficiency, it's about productivity, it's also now more and more about delivering a much stronger customer experience, right? Making your products easier to use much easily consumable as well. So, if you, when you pull it all together, it's it's an end to end thinking about using data to drive those objectives of out performance, as well as resilience. >>What's the progress being made so far in the manufacturing industry on this front? I mean, is it moving faster? Are you mentioned accelerating? But where is the progress bar? Right now? >>So, I think as we came into 2020, I would have described it as we were starting to enter the Chapter. Two companies were moving from experimentation to really thinking of scaling this and and what we found is the pandemic really caused a big focus on these. As Winston Churchill has been attributed the court never waste a good crisis. So a lot of ceos, a lot of executives and leadership really put their What their energy into accelerate industrial transformation. I think we relieve 2/3 southwell have been able to accelerate the industrial transformation. So the good news is, you know, companies don't have to be convinced about this anymore. They're really they're focuses on what's where should I start? Where should I focus on what should I do next? Right is really the focus and they're investing instead of two types of technologies is the way we see it, what I would call foundational technologies because there's a recognition that to apply the differentiating technologies like Ai and captured and taking value of the data, you need a strong architectural foundation. So whether it's it's cybersecurity, it's what we call it, the integration, connecting the devices back to to the mother ship and it's also applying cloud. But cloud in this context is not about typically what we think is public cloud or or or central spot. It's really bringing cloud like technology is also to the edge I. E. To the plant or to the device itself, whether it's a mobile device or a physical device. And that foundation is the recognition that you've got to have the foundation, that you can build your your capabilities on top, whether it's for customers or clients and colleagues >>as a great insight on the architecture, I think that's a successful playbook. Um It sounds so easy, I do agree with you. I think people have said this is a standard now, Hybrid cloud the edge, pretty clear visibility on the architecture of what to do or what needs to be done, how to do it almost story. So I have to ask you, we hear this barriers, there's always blockers. I think Covid released some of those, relieved some of those blockers because people have to force their way into into the transformation. But what are those barriers um that that are stopping the acceleration for customers to achieve the benefits that they need to see. >>Yes. So I think 11 key barrier is is a recognition that most of our plants or manufacturing facilities that supply chains really run run in a brownfield manner. I there's so many machines, so many facilities that have been built over decades. So there's a there's a proliferation of different ages of devices, machines, etcetera. So making sure that there is a focus on laying out the foundation. That's a key key barrier. Uh There is also a concern that uh you know, the companies have around cybersecurity, the more you connect, the more you increase the attack surface and we know that that acts and so on are the dominant issue. Now, whether it's for ransom, fair or for or for other malicious reasons, uh and so modernizing the foundation and making sure you're doing it in a secure way. Those are the key concerns that executives have. And then another key barrier I see is making sure that you have a key key core objective and not making sure making too many different varied experimentation bets. So keeping a focus on what's the call? Use case of benefit your after and then what's the foundation to make sure that you're going after it? Like I said, whether it's quality or productivity or such, like >>So the keys to success that I get this right is gonna have the right framework for this, as you say, industry 4.0, you got to understand the collaborative dynamics and then have an ecosystem. Yeah, can you unpack those three things? Because take me through that, you got to the framework, the collaboration and the ecosystem. What does that mean? Specifically? >>So uh the way, I think the simplest way to think of it as the amount of work and effort that all companies have been put in is so great in front of them, the opportunities are so great as well uh that nobody can hire all the smart people that are needed to achieve the goals. Everybody has their own specific I would say focus and capabilities they bring to bear. So the collaboration between manufacturers, the collaboration between operational technology companies like the Seaman's, A B B, Schlumberger's, etcetera. And and it technology companies like ourselves that three part collaboration is sort of the heart of what I see as ecosystems coming together. The other dimensionality of ecosystems is also looking at it from a supply chain or value chain perspective because how something becomes more intelligent or smarter or more effective is also being able to work across the supply chain or value chain. So those, those are our key focus areas, make sure we are collaborating across value chains and supply chains as well as collaborating with manufacturers and oT operational technology companies to be able to bring these digital capabilities with the right capabilities of operational technology companies into the manufacturers. >>If I asked you, how is you doing that? What specifically would you say? I mean, how are you collaborating? What's some examples, give some examples of of this in action? >>Certainly. So we recently announced uh over the last say nine months or so, three strategic very translated partnerships. The first one I'll share with you is uh is which number number two is the world's largest oil field services company and now also the world's largest distal technology company for the oil and gas industry. So we've collaborated with them to bring hybrid cloud to the digital platforms so they now can deploy the capabilities to any customer regardless of whether they want it in country or on a public cloud. Another example is we've we've established a data platform which number J for the oil and gas industry to be able to bring again that data platform to any location around the world. The advantage of hybrid, the advantage of A. I with the B. B. What we've done is we've taken our smarts in I. T. Security connected with their products and capabilities for operational systems and now are delivering an into institution that you can get cyber alerts or issues coming from from manufacturing systems right down to right up to an I. T. Command center where you're seeing all the events and alerts so that they can be acted upon right away. So that's a great example of collaborating with from a security point of view. The 3rd 1 is industrial iot with ceilings and we've partnered with Siemens to deliver their minds Fear Private cloud edition delivered on our red hat Hybrid cloud. So this is an example where we are able to take our horizontal technologies, apply it with their vertical smarts and deep industry cause of context put our services capabilities on top of it so they can deliver their innovations anymore. >>It is such an expert on this, such a great leader on this area. And I have to ask you, you know, you've been in this um mode of evangelizing and leading teams and building solutions around digital re platform or whatever you wanna call her innovation. Um what's the big deal now? If you had to? I mean, it seems like it's all coming together with red hat under the covers, get distributed networks with the edge, it's all kind of coming together now for the verticals because you get the best of both worlds programmable scalable infrastructure with modern software applications on top. I mean you've been even even in the industry for many, many waves, why is this wave so big and important? >>So I think there is no longer uh big reason why it's important. I think there's no no reason why companies have to be convinced now the clarity is there, that this needs to happen. So that's one. The second is I think there is a high degree of expectation among consumers, among employees and among among customers as well that everything that we touch will be intelligent. So these technologies really unlock the value, uh unlock the value and they can be deployed at scale. That's really, I think what we're seeing as the focus now and being able to deliver the innovation anywhere, whether someone wants it at the edge next to a machine that's operating or be able to look at how a manufacturing facility or different product portfolio is doing in the boardroom, it's all available and so that shop floor, the top floor connection is what everybody is aiming for. We also now called edge to enterprise >>And everything works better. The employees are happy, people are happy to, stakeholders are happy finish. Great insight. Thank you for sharing here on the Cube for think 2021. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >>Absolutely. Thanks for having me. >>Okay. I'm John Kerry hosted the queue for IBM think 2021. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.

(energetic music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley; Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Power Panel recorded here in Palo Alto, California. We've got remote guests from around the Internet. We have Evan Anderson, Mark Anderson, Phil Lohaus. Thanks for comin' on. Evan is with INVNT/IP, an organization with companies and individuals that fight nation-sponsored intellectual property theft and also author of the huge report Theft Nation Almost a 100 pages of really comprehensive analysis on it. Mark Anderson with the Future in Review CEO of Pattern, Computer and Strategic New Service Chairman of Future in Review Conference, and author of the book "The Pattern Future: "Find the World's Greatest Secrets "and Predicting the Future Using Discovery Patterns" and Phil Lohaus, American Enterprise Institute. Former intelligent analyst, researcher at the American Enterprise Institute, studying competitive strategy and emerging technologies. Guys, thanks for coming on. This topic is, is industrial IoT the new battleground? Mark, you cover the Future Review. Security is the battleground. It's not just a silo'd space. It's horizontally scalable across every single touch point of the Internet, individuals, national security, companies, global, what's your perspective on this new battleground? >> Well, thank you, I took some time and watched your last presentation on this, which I thought was excellent. And maybe I'll try to pick up from there. There's a lot of discussion there about the technical aspects of IoT, or IIoT, and some of the weaknesses, you know firewalls failing, assuming that someone's in your network. But I think that there's a deeper aspect to this. And the problem I think, John, is that yes, they are in your network already, but the deeper problem here is, who is it? Is it an individual? Is it a state? And whoever it is, I'm going to put something out that I think is going to be worth talking more deeply about, and that is, if people who can do the most damage are already in there, and are ready to do it, the question isn't "Can they?" It's "Why have they not?" And so literally, I think if you ask world leaders today, are they in the electric grid? Yes. Is Russia in ours, are we in theirs? Yes. If you said, is China in our most important areas of enterprise? Absolutely. Is Iran in our banks and so forth? They are. And you actually see states of war going on, that are nuisances, but are not what you might call Cybergeddon. And I really believe that the world leaders are truly afraid. Perhaps more afraid of that than of nuclear war. So the amount of death and destruction that could happen if everybody cut loose at the same time, is so horrifying, my guess is that there's a human restraint involved in this, but that technically, it's already game over. >> Phil, Cybergeddon, I love that term, because that's a part of our theme here, is apocalypse now or later? Industrial IoT, or IIoT, or the Internet, all these touch points are creating a surface area that for penetration's purposes, any packet can get in. Nation-states, malware, you name it. It's all problem. But this is the new war battleground. This is now digital Cybergeddon. Forget the wall on the southern border, physical wall. We're talking about a digital wall. We have major threats going on to our society in the United States, and global. This is new, rules of engagement, or no rules of engagement on how to compete in a digital war. This is something that the government's supposed to protect us for. I mean, if someone drops troops in California, physical people, the government's supposed to stop that. But if it's a digital war, it's packets. And the companies are responsible for all this. This doesn't make any sense to me. Break it down, what's the problem? And how do we solve this? >> Sure, well the problem is is that we're actually facing different kinds of threats than we were typically used to facing in the past. So in the past when we go to war, we may have a problem with a foreign country, or a conflict is coming up. We tend to, and by we I mean the United States, we tend to think of these things as we're going to send troops in, or we're going to actually have a physical fight, or we're going to have some other kind of decisive culmination of events, end of a conflict. What we're dealing with now is very different. And it's actually something that isn't entirely new. But the adversaries that we're facing now, so let's say China, Russia, and Iran, just to kind of throw them into some buckets, they think about war very differently. They think about the information space more broadly, and partially because they've been so used to having to kind of be catching up to America in terms of technology, they found other ways to compete with America, and ways that we really haven't been focusing on. And that really, I would argue, extends most prominently to the information space. And by the information space I'm speaking very broadly. I'm talking about, not just information in terms of social media, and emails, and things like that, but also things like what we're talking about today, like IIoT. And these are new threat landscapes, and ones where our competitors have a integrated way of approaching the conflict, one in which the state and private sectors kind of are molded or fused or at least are compelled to work together and we have a very different space here in the United States. And I'm happy to unpack that as we talk about that today, but what we're now facing, is not just about technical capabilities, it's about differences in governing systems, differences in governing paradigms. And so it's much bigger than just talking about the technical specifics. >> Evan, I want you to weigh in on this because one of the things that I feel strongly about, and this is pretty obvious from the commentary, and experts I talk to is, the United States has always been good at defending itself physically, you know war, in being places. Digitally, we've been really good at offense, but terrible on defense, has been the metaphor. I spoke with former four-star General Keith Alexander, who ran the NSA and was first commander of the cyber command, who is now the CEO of IronNet. He and I were talking on-camera and privately and he's saying, "Look it. "we suck at defense digitally. "We're great at offense, we can take someone out "on the offense." But we're talking about IoT, about monitoring. These are technical challenges. This is network nerds, and software engineers have to solve this problem with the prism of defense. This is a new paradigm. This is what we're kind of getting to. And Mark, you kind of addressed it. But this is the challenge. IoT is going to create more points that we have to defend that we suck now at defending, how are we going to get better. This is the paradox. >> Yeah, I think that's certainly accurate. And one of our problems here is that as a society we've always been open. And that was how the Internet was born. And so we have a real paradigm shift now from a world in which the U.S. was leading an open world, that was using the Internet for, I mean there have been problems with security since day one, but originally the Internet was an information-sharing exercise. And we reached a point in human history now where there are enough malicious hackers that have the capabilities we didn't want them to have, but we need to change that outlook. So, looking at things like Industrial IoT, what you're seeing is not so much that this is the battlefield in specific, it's that everything like it is now the battlefield. So in my work specifically we're focused more on economic problems. Economic conflicts and strategies. And if you look at the doctrines that have come out of our adversaries in the last decade, or really 20 years, they very much did what Phil said, and they looked at our weaknesses, and one of those biggest weaknesses that we've always had is that an open society is also unable necessarily to completely defend itself from those who would seek to exploit that openness. And so we have to figure out as a society, and I believe we are. We're running a fine line, we're negotiating this tightrope right now that involves defending the values and the foundational critical aspects of our society that require openness, while also making sure that all the doors aren't open for adversaries. And so we'll continue to deal with that as a society. Everything is now a battlefield and a much grayer area, and IoT certainly isn't helping. And that's why we have to work so hard on it. >> I want to talk about the economic piece on the next talk track of rounds. Theft, and intellectual property that you cover deeply. But Mark and Phil, this notion of Cybergeddon meets the fact that we have to be more defensive. Again, principles of openness are out there. I mean, we have open source. There is a potential path here. Open source software has been, I think, depending on who you talk to, fourth generation, or fifth, depending on how old you are, but it's now mainstream enough now. Are we ever going to get to a formula where we can actually be strong in defense as well as just offense with respect to protecting digitally? >> Phil, do you want that? >> Well, yeah, I would just say that I'm glad to hear that General Alexander is confident about our offensive capabilities. But one of the... To NSA that is conducting these offensive capabilities. When we talk about Russia, Iran, China, or even a smaller group, like let's say an extremist group or something like that, there's an integration between command and control, that we simply don't have here in the States. For example, the Panasonic and Sony examples always come to mind, as ones where there are attacks that can happen against American companies that then have larger implications that go beyond just those companies. So and this may not be a case where the NSA is even tracking the threat. There's been some legislation that's come out, rather controversial legislation about so-called hacking back initiatives and things like that. But I think everybody knows that this is already kind of happening. The real question is going to be, how does the public sector, and how does the private sector work together to create this environment where they're working in synergy, rather than at cross purposes? >> Yeah, and this brings up, I've heard this before. I've heard people talk about the fact that open source nation states can actually empower by releasing tools in open source via the Dark Web or other vehicles, to not actually have, quote, their finger prints, on any attacks. This seems to be a tactic. >> Or go through criminals, right? Use proxies, things like that. It's getting even more complicated and Alexander's talked about that as well, right? He's talked about the convergence of crime and nation-state actions. So whereas with nation-states it's already hard-attributed enough, if that's being outsourced to either whether it's patriotic hackers or criminal groups, it's even more difficult. >> I think you know, Keith is a good friend of all of ours, obviously, good guy. His point is a good one. I'd like to take it a little more extreme state and say, defense is worth doing and probably hopeless. (everyone laughs) So, as they always say, all it takes is one failure. So, we always talk about defense, but really, he's right. Offense is easy. You want to go after somebody? We can get them. But if you want to play defense against a trillion potential points of failure, there's no chance. One way to say this is, if we ignore individuals for a moment and just look at nation-states, it's pretty clear that any nation-state of size, that wants to get into a certain network, will get in. And then the question will be, Well, once they're in, can they actually do damage? And the answer is probably yeah, they probably can. Well, why don't they? Why don't they do more damage? We're kind of back to the original premise here, that there's some restraint going on. And I suspect that Keith's absolutely right because in general, they don't want to get attacked. They don't want to have to come back at them what they're about to do to your banks or your grid, and we could do that. We all could do that. So my guess is, there's a little bit of failure on our part to have deep discussions about how great our defenses either are, or are not, when frankly the idea of defense is a good idea, worthwhile idea, but not really achievable. >> Yeah, that's a great point. That comes up a lot where it's like, people don't want retaliation, so it's a big, critical event that happens, that's noticeable as a counterstrike or equivalent. But there's been discussion of the, I call it "the slow bleed" where they push the line of where that is, like slowly infiltrate, and just cause disruption and inconvenience, as a tactic. This has become something we're seeing a lot of. Whether it's misinformation campaigns on fake news, to just disrupting operations slowly over time, and just kind of, 1,000 paper cuts, if you will. Your guys' thoughts on that? Is that something you guys see out there that's happening? >> Well, you saw Iran go after our banks. And we were pushing Iran pretty hard on the sanctions. Everybody knows they did that. It wasn't very much fun for anybody. But what they didn't do is take down the entire banking system. Not sure they could, but they didn't. >> Yeah, I would just add there that you see this on multiple fronts. You see this is by design. I'm sure that Mark is talking about this in his report but... they talk about this incremental approach that over time, this is part of the problem, right? Is that we have a very kind of black or white conception of warfare in this country. And a lot of times, even companies are going to think, well you know, we're at peace, so why would I do something that may actually be construed as something that's warlike or offensive or things like that? But in reality, even though we aren't technically at war, all of these other actors view this as a real conflict. And so we have to get creative about how we think about this within the paradigm that we have and the legal strictures that we have here in this country. >> Well there's no doubt at least in my non-expert military opinion, but as someone who is a techie, been on the Internet from day one, all my life, and all those tools, you guys as well, I personally think we're at war. 100%, there's no debate on that. And I think that we have to get better policy around this and understand it better. Because it's happening. And one of the obvious areas that we see in the news everyday, it's Huawei and intellectual property theft. This is an economic impact. I mean just look at what's happening in Brexit in the U.K. If that was essentially manipulated, that's the ultimate smart bomb, is to just destroy their financial system, which ended up happening through that misinformation. So there are economic realizations here, Evan,that not only come from the misinformation campaigns and other attacks, but there's real value with intellectual property. This is the report you put out. Your thoughts? >> There's very much an active conflict going on in the economic sphere, and that's certainly an excellent point. I think one of the most important things that most of the world doesn't quite understand yet, but our adversaries certainly understand, is that wars are fought for usually, just a few reasons. And there's a lot of different justification that goes on. But often it's for economic benefit. And if you look at human history, and you look at modern history, a lot of wars are fought for some form of economic benefit, often in the form of territory, et cetera, but in the modern age, information can directly and very quite obviously translate into economic benefit. And so when you're bleeding information, you're really bleeding money. And when I say information, again, it's a broad word, but intellectual property, which our definition, here at INVNT/IP is quite broad too, is incredibly valuable. And so if you have an adversary that's consistently removing intellectual property from what I would call our information ecosystem, and our business ecosystem, we're losing a lot of economic value there, and that's what wars are fought over. And so to pretend that this conflict is inactive, and to pretend that the underlying economy and economic strength that is bolstered or created by intellectual property isn't critical would be silly. And so I think we need to look at those kinds of dynamics and the kind of Gerasimov Doctrine, and the essential doctrine of unrestricted warfare that came out of the People's Republic of China are focused on avoiding kinetic conflict while succeeding at the kinds of conflict that are more preferable, particularly in an asymmetric environment. So that's what we're dealing with. >> Mark and Phil, people waking up to this reality are certainly. People in the know are that I talk to, but generally speaking across the board, is this a woke moment for tech? This Armageddon now or later? >> Woke moment for politicians not for tech, I think. I'm sure Phil would agree with this, but the old guard, go back to when Keith was running the NSA. But at that time, there was a very clear distinction between military and economic security. And so when you said security, that meant military. And now all the rules have changed. All the ways CFIUS works in the United States have changed. The legislation is changing, and now if you want to talk about security, most major nations equate economic security with national security. And that wasn't true 10 years ago. >> That's a great point. That's really profound, I totally agree. Phil. >> I think you're seeing a change in realization in Washington about this. I mean, if you look at the cybersecurity strategy of 2018, it specifically says that we're going to be moving from a posture of active defense to one of defending forward. And we can get into the discussion about what those words mean, but the way I usually boil down is it means, going from defending, but maybe a little bit forward, to actually going out and making sure that our interests are protected. And the reason why that's important, and we're talking about offense versus defense here, obviously the reason why, from what Mark was saying, if they're already in the networks, and they haven't actually done anything, it's because they're afraid of what that offensive response could be. So it's important that we selectively demonstrate what costs we could impose on different actors for different kinds of actions, especially knowing that they're already operating inside of our network. >> That's a great point. I mean, I think that's again another profound statement because it's almost like the pin in the grenade. Once they pull it, the damage is done. Again, back to our theme, Armageddon, now or later? What's the answer to this, guys? Is it the push to policy conversation and the potential consequences higher? Get that narrative going. Is it more technical protection in the networks? What's some of the things that people are talking about and thinking about around this? >> And it's really all of the above. So the tough part about this for any society and for our society is that it's expensive to live in a world with this much insecurity. And so when these kind of low-level conflicts are going on, it costs money and it costs resources. And companies had to deal with that. They spent a long time trying to dodge security costs, and now particularly with the advent of new law like the GDPR in Europe, it's becoming untenable not to spend that defensive money, even as a company, right? But we also are looking at a deepening to change policy. And I think there's been a lot of progress made. Mark mentioned the CFIUS reforms. There are a lot of different essentially games of Whack-A-Mole being played all around the world right now figuring out how to chase these security problems that we let go too long, but there's many, many, many fronts that we need to-- >> Whack-A-Mole's a great example. The visualization of that is just horrendous. You know, not the ideal scenario. But I got to get your point on this, because one of the things that comes up all the time in our conversations in theCUBE is, the government's job is to protect our securities. So again, if someone came in, and invaded my town in Palo Alto, it's not my responsibility to fight for the town. Maybe defend my own house. But if I'm a company being attacked by Russia, or China or Iran, isn't it the government's responsibility to protect me as a citizen and the company doing business there? So again, this is kind of the confusion that people have. If somebody's going to defend their hack, I certainly got to put security practices in place. This is new ground for the government, digitally speaking. >> When we started this INVNT/IP project, it was about seven years ago. And I was told by a very smart guy in D.C. that our greatest challenge was going to be American corporations, global corporations. And he was absolutely right. Literally in this fight to protect intellectual property, and to protect the welfare even of corporations, our greatest enemies so far have been American corporations. And they lobby hard for China, while China is busy stealing from them, and stealing from their company, and stealing from their country. All that stuff's going on, on a daily basis and they're in D.C. lobbying in favor of China. Don't do anything to make them mad. >> They're getting their pockets picked at the same time. And they're trying to do business in China. They're getting their pockets picked. That's what you're saying. >> They're going for the quarterly earnings report and that's all. >> So the problem is-- >> Yeah so-- >> The companies themselves are kind of self-inflicted wounds here for them. >> Yes. >> Yeah, just to add to that, on this note, there have been some... Business to settle interest. And this is something you're seeing a little bit more of. There's been legislation through CFIUS and things like that. There have been reforms that discourage the flow of Chinese money in the Silicon Valley. And there's actually a measurable difference in that. Because people just don't want to deal with the paperwork. They don't want to deal with the reputational risk, et cetera, et cetera. And this is really going to be the key challenge, is having policy makers not only that are interested in addressing this issue, because not all of them are even convinced it's a problem, if you can believe it or not, but having them interested and then having them understand the issue in a way that the legislation can actually be helpful and not get in the way of things that we value, such as innovation and entrepreneurialism and things like that. So it's going to take sophisticated policy-making and providing incentives so that companies actually want to participate and helping to make America safer. >> You're so right about the politicians. Capitol Hill's really not educated. I mean I tell my kids, and they ask the same questions, just look at Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai present to the government. They don't even know what an Android phone versus an iPhone is, nevermind what the Internet, and how this global economy works. This has become a makeup problem of the personnel in Capitol Hill. You guys see any movement? I'm seeing some change with a new guard, a new generation of younger people coming in. Certainly from the military, that's an easy when you see people get this. But a new generation of young millennials who are saying, "Hey, why are we doing this the old way?" and actually becoming more informed. Not being the lawyer at law-making. It's actually more technically savvy. Is there any movement, any bright hope there? >> I think there's a little hope in the sense that at a time when Congress has trouble keeping the lights on, they seem to have bipartisan agreement on this set of issues that we're talking about. So, that's hopeful. You know, we've seen a number of strongly bipartisan issues supported in Congress, with the Senate, with the House, all agreeing that this is an issue for us all, that they need to protect the country. They need to protect IP. They need to extend the definition of security. There's no argument there. And that's a very strange thing in today's D.C. to have no argument between the parties. There's no error between the GOP and the Democrats as far as I can tell. They seem to all agree on this, and so it is hopeful. >> Freedom has its costs and I think this is a new era of modern freedom and warfare and protection and all these dynamics are changing, just like Cloud 2.0 is changing application developers. Guys, this is a really important topic. Thank you so much for coming on, appreciate it. Love to do a follow-up on this again with you guys. Thanks for sharing your insight. Some great, profound statements there, appreciate it. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's been a CUBE Power Panel here from Palo Alto, California with Evan Anderson, Mark Anderson, and Phil Lohaus. Thank you guys for coming on. Power Panel: The Next Battleground in Industrial IoT. Security is a big part of it. Thanks for watching, this has been theCUBE. (energetic music)