(soft music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's covers of Splunk's dot com virtual event, their annual summit. I'm John Ferry, host of the cube. We've been covering dot conf since twenty twelve. Usually a physical event in person. This year it's virtual. I'm here with Claire Hockin, the CMO of Splunk. She's been here three and a half years. Your first year as CMO, and you got to go virtual from physical. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. >> Thank you very much, John. Great. >> I got to ask you, I mean, this has been the most impressive virtual venue, you've taken over the hotel here in Silicon valley. You're entire teams here. It feels like there's a dynamic of like the teamwork. You can kind of feel the vibe. It's almost like a little VIP Splunk event, but you're broadcasting it to the world. Tell us what's happening. >> Yeah, it's been, I think for everyone a year where we really hope to be back to having a hybrid event, so having a big virtual component, but running dot conf as we had before from Las Vegas, which wasn't possible. So what we thought in the last six weeks is that we would actually bring the Splunk studio to a physical location. So we've been live all of this week from California, where we're sitting today and really thought through bringing the best of that programming to our, you know, our amazing audience of twenty six thousand people. So we were sitting here in a studio, we have a whole live stage and we've activated the best of dot conf to bring as many Splunkers as we can. And as many external guests to make it feel as real and as vibrant as possible. So. >> I have to say I'm very impressed. Since twenty twelve we've been watching the culture evolve. Splunk has always been that next big thing. And then the next big thing again, it seems to be the theme as data becomes so bigger and more important even than ever. There's a new Splunk emerging, another kind of next big thing. And this kind of says the patterns like do something big, that's new, operationalize it and do something new again. This is a theme, big part of this culture here. Can you share more about how you see this evolving? >> Sure. And I think that's what makes Splunk such a great place to be. And I think it attracts people who like to continually challenge reinvent. And I think we've spent a lot of time this year building out our portfolio, going through this cloud transformation. It just gives you a whole new landscape of how you unlock that power of data and how customers use it. So we've had a lot of fun, always building on top of that building, you know, our partnerships, what customers do and really having fun with it. I think one of the best things about Splunk is we do have this incredibly fun and playful brand and as data just becomes something that is more and more powerful, it's really relatable. And we have fun with activating that and storytelling. So, yeah. >> And you have a new manager, Teresa Carlson came in from Amazon web services. You have a lot more messaging kind of building on previous messaging. How are you handling and looking at the aperture of, that's growing from a messaging standpoint, you have a partner verse, which has rebranded of your solution of your ecosystem, kind of a lot of action going on in your world. What's the update? >> Yeah. It keeps us busy. And I think at one end, you know, the number of people that are using Splunk inside any customer base is just growing. So you have different kinds of users. And this year we're really working hard on how to partner and position Splunk with developers, but at the top end of that, the value of data and the idea of having a data foundation is something that's incredibly compelling for CTOs. So working really hard about looking at Splunk and data from that perspective, as well as the individual uses across areas like security and observability. So. >> You know, one of the things I wanted to ask you is, I was thinking about this when I was driving in this morning, Splunk has a lot of customers and you keep your customers and you've have a lot of customers that organically came into the Splunk through the product leadership and just great product. And then as security became more important, Splunk kind of takes that territory now. Now mainstream enterprise with the platform are leaning into Splunk solutions, and now you've got an ecosystem. So it's just becoming bigger and bigger just seems that the scale of the Splunk is growing radically bigger than it was, Is that happening? And what's your take on that? >> I think that's definitely a thing, John. So I think that the power of the ecosystem is amazing. We have customers, partners, as you've seen and everything just joins up. So we're seeing more and more dot joining through data. And we're just seeing this incredible velocity in terms of what's possible and how we can co-build with our partners and do more and more with our customers. So Splunk moves incredibly quickly. And I think if anything, we're just, gaining velocity, which is fun and also really challenging. >> Cloud-scale. And certainly during the pandemic, you guys had a tailwind on the business side, talk about the journey that you've had with Splunk as in your career and also for the customers. How are they reacting and what can they expect as Splunk continues to evolve? >> I think we're working really hard to make sure that Splunk is easier to use. Everything gets every more integrated. And I think our goal and our vision is you just capture your data and you can apply it to any use case using Splunk. And to make it sort of easier see that data in action. And one of the things I love from today was the dashboard studio. They're just these beautiful visualizations that really are inspiring around how data is working in your organization. And for me, I've been a Splunker for three and a half years. And I just think there is just so much to do, and there's so much of our story ahead of us and so much potential. So just really enjoying working with customers on the next data frontier, really. >> You have the Jedi Knight from Star Wars speaking, you had the F1 car racing. Lando was here, kind of the young Jedi, the old Jedi. The generations are coming together. You're seeing that old IT world, which relied on Splunk. And now you have this new developer real-time shifting left with security DevOps now going mainstream, you kind of have the confluences of these cultures coming together. It's not really clashing. It's kind of jelling. How are you handling that? How do you see that? What's Splunk kind of doing? Because I can see the themes, am I right? >> No, no. One of the stories from this morning that really struck me is we have Cal Poly and we worked with Cal Poly on their security and they actually have their students using Splunk and they run their whole security environment. And at the very top end, you have Walmart, the Fortune one, just using Splunk at a massive, incredible scale. And I think that's the power of data. I mean, data is something that everyone should and can be able to use. And that's what we're really seeing is unlocking the ability to bring, you know, bring all of your data in service of what you're trying to do, which is fun. And it just keeps growing. >> We had Zach Brown, the CEO of F1 McLaren Racing Team, here on the queue earlier. And it was interesting cause I was like driving the advantage with data, you know, kind of cliche, but they're using data very specifically, highly competitive. It almost kind of feels like a cloud kind of scale model because we've got thousands of people working on the team. They're on the track, they're competing, they're using data, they got to be agile and they got to be fast real time. Kind of sounds like the current enterprise's these days. >> Absolutely. And I think what's interesting about McLaren that the thing I love is either they have hundreds of terabytes of data moving at just at incredible speed through Splunk Enterprise, but it all goes back to their mission control in the UK. And there are 32 people that look at all that data. And I think it's got a half second delay and they make all the decisions for the car on the track. And that I think is a great lesson to any enterprises you have to, you know, you have to bring all that data together and you have to look at it and take decisions centrally for the benefit of your whole team. And I think McLaren is a really good example of when you do that it pays dividends and the team has had a really, really great season. >> Well, I want to say congratulations for pulling off a great virtual event. I know you had your physical event was on track and literally canceled the last minute because of the pandemic with the Delta virus. But it was amazing, made for digital TV kind of event. >> Absolutely, >> This is the future of media. >> Absolutely. And it is a lot of fun. And I think I'm really proud. We have done all of this with our in-house team, the brand, the experiences that you see, which is really fantastic. And it's given us a lot of ideas for sort of, you know, digital media and how we story tell, and really connect to our twenty thousand customers or two hundred and thirty thousand community members and keep everyone connected through digital. So this has been a lot of fun and a really nice moment for us this week. >> You know it's interesting, I was saying to the team here on one of our breaks, is that when you have this kind of agility with media to tell your own story directly, you're almost telling more stories there before. And there's a lot to tell you have a lot of successful customers, the new partners. What's the coolest story that you've seen. What would you share that you think is your favorite? If you could pick one or a few of them, what are your top stories that you see happening? >> So I've talked about Cal Poly, which I love because it's students and you know, the scale of Walmart, but there are so many stories. And I think the ones that I love most are the data heroes. We talk about the data here is a lot of Splunk and the people that are able to harness that data and to take action on that data and make something amazing happen. And we just see that time and time again, across all kinds of organizations where data heroes are surfacing, those insights. Those red flags, if you like and helping organizations stay on step ahead. And Conf is really a celebration of that. I think that's why we do this every year. And we really celebrate those data heroes. So across the program, probably too many to mention, but in every industry and at every scale, people are, you know, making things happen with data and that's an incredibly exciting place to be. >> Well you have a lot of great customers to, to use as references. But I got to ask you that as you go forward this year in marketing, what are your plans to take on this new dynamic? You've got hybrid events, you've got the community is always popular and thriving with Splunk at large-scale enterprises, global system integrators, doing business deals with you guys, as you guys are continuing to grow and grow and grow, what's the strategy? How do you keep the Splunk coolness going? Cause that's, you know, you guys are growing so fast. That's your job, is to keep things on track. What's your strategy? >> I think I look at that and just, we put the customer at the heart of that. And we think, you know, who are the personas, who are the people that use Splunk? What's their experience? What are they trying to do? What are those challenges? And we design those moments to help them move forward faster. And so that I think is just a really good north star. It is really unifying and our partners and customers, and every Splunker gets really behind that. So stay focused on that. >> Thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it. Congratulations for great event. And thanks for having the Cube. We love coming in and sharing our media partnership with you. Thank you for coming. >> Thank you so much. And next year is your tenth year John. So we look forward to celebrating that as well. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Okay it's the Cube coverage here live in the Splunk studios. We are a virtual event, but it's turning out to be a hybrid event. It's like a VIP event, a lot of great stories. Check them out online. They'll be recycling through so much digital content. This is truly a great digital event. Jeffery, hot of the Cube. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> As you know by now, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, is stepping aside from his CEO role and AWS CEO, Andy Jassy, is being promoted to head all of Amazon. Bezos, of course, is going to remain executive chairman. Now, 15 years ago, next month, Amazon launched it's simple storage service, which was the first modern cloud offering. And the man who wrote the business plan for AWS, was Andy Jassy, and he's navigated the meteoric rise and disruption that has seen AWS grow into a $45 billion company that draws off the vast majority of Amazon's operating profits. No one in the media has covered Jassy more intimately and closely than John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And John joins us today to help us understand on theCUBE this move and what we can expect from Jassy in his new role, and importantly what it means for AWS. John, thanks for taking the time to speak with us. >> Hey, great day. Great to see you as always, we've done a lot of interviews together over the years and we're on our 11th year with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE. But I got to be excited too, that we're simulcasters on Clubhouse, which is kind of cool. Love Clubhouse but not since the, in December. It's awesome. It's like Cube radio. It's like, so this is a Cube talk. So we opened up a Clubhouse room while we're filming this. We'll do more live hits in studio and syndicate the Clubhouse and then take questions after. This is a huge digital transformation moment. I'm part of the digital transformation club on Clubhouse which has almost 5,000 followers at the moment and also has like 500 members. So if you're not on Clubhouse, yet, if you have an iPhone go check it out and join the digital transformation club. Android users you'll have to wait until that app is done but it's really a great club. And Jeremiah Owyang is also doing a lot of stuff on digital transformation. >> Or you can just buy an iPhone and get in. >> Yeah, that's what people are doing. I can see all the influences are on there but to me, the digital transformation, it's always been kind of a cliche, the consumerization of IT, information technology. This has been the boring world of the enterprise over the past, 20 years ago. Enterprise right now is super hot because there's no distinction between enterprise and society. And that's clearly the, because of the rise of cloud computing and the rise of Amazon Web Services which was a side project at AWS, at Amazon that Andy Jassy did. And it wasn't really pleasant at the beginning. It was failed. It failed a lot and it wasn't as successful as people thought in the early days. And I have a lot of stories with Andy that he told me a lot of the inside baseball and we'll share that here today. But we started covering Amazon since the beginning. I was as an entrepreneur. I used it when it came out and a huge fan of them as a company because they just got a superior product and they have always had been but it was very misunderstood from the beginning. And now everyone's calling it the most important thing. And Andy now is becoming Andy Jassy, the most important executive in the world. >> So let's get it to the, I mean, look at, you said to me over holidays, you thought this might have something like this could happen. And you said, Jassy is probably in line to get this. So, tell us, what can you tell us about Jassy? Why is he qualified for this job? What do you think he brings to the table? >> Well, the thing that I know about Amazon everyone's been following the Amazon news is, Jeff Bezos has a lot of personal turmoil. They had his marriage fail. They had some issues with the smear campaigns and all this stuff going on, the run-ins with Donald Trump, he bought the Washington post. He's got a lot of other endeavors outside of Amazon cause he's the second richest man in the world competing with Elon Musk at Space X versus Blue Origin. So the guy's a billionaire. So Amazon is his baby and he's been running it as best he could. He's got an executive team committee they called the S team. He's been grooming people in the company and that's just been his mode. And the rise of AWS and the business performance that we've been documenting on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, it's just been absolutely changing the game on Amazon as a company. So clearly Amazon Web Services become a driving force of the new Amazon that's emerging. And obviously they've got all their retail business and they got the gaming challenges and they got the studios and the other diversified stuff. So Jassy is just, he's just one of those guys. He's just been an Amazonian from day one. He came out of Harvard business school, drove across the country, very similar story to Jeff Bezos. He did that in 1997 and him and Jeff had been collaborating and Jeff tapped him to be his shadow, they call it, which is basically technical assistance and an heir apparent and groomed him. And then that's how it is. Jassy is not a climber as they call it in corporate America. He's not a person who is looking for a political gain. He's not a territory taker, but he's a micromanager. He loves details and he likes to create customer value. And that's his focus. So he's not a grandstander. In fact, he's been very low profile. Early days when we started meeting with him, he wouldn't meet with press regularly because they weren't writing the right stories. And everyone is, he didn't know he was misunderstood. So that's classic Amazon. >> So, he gave us the time, I think it was 2014 or 15 and he told us a story back then, John, you might want to share it as to how AWS got started. Why, what was the main spring Amazon's tech wasn't working that great? And Bezos said to Jassy, going to go figure out why and maybe explain how AWS was born. >> Yeah, we had, in fact, we were the first ones to get access to do his first public profile. If you go to the Google and search Andy Jassy, the trillion dollar baby, we had a post, we put out the story of AWS, Andy Jassy's trillion dollar baby. This was in early, this was January 2015, six years ago. And, we back then, we posited that this would be a trillion dollar total addressable market. Okay, people thought we were crazy but we wrote a story and he gave us a very intimate access. We did a full drill down on him and the person, the story of Amazon and that laid out essentially the beginning of the rise of AWS and Andy Jassy. So that's a good story to check out but really the key here is, is that he's always been relentless and competitive on creating value in what they call raising the bar outside Amazon. That's a term that they use. They also have another leadership principle called working backwards, which is like, go to the customer and work backwards from the customer in a very Steve Job's kind of way. And that's been kind of Jobs mentality as well at Apple that made them successful work backwards from the customer and make things easier. And that was Apple. Amazon, their philosophy was work backwards from the customer and Jassy specifically would say it many times and eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That was a key principle of what they were doing. So that was a key thesis of their entire business model. And that's the Amazonian way. Faster, cheaper, ship it faster, make it less expensive and higher value. While when you apply the Amazon shipping concept to cloud computing, it was completely disrupted. They were shipping code and services faster and that became their innovation strategy. More announcements every year, they out announced their competition by huge margin. They introduced new services faster and they're less expensive some say, but in the aggregate, they make more money but that's kind of a key thing. >> Well, when you, I was been listening to the TV today and there was a debate on whether or not, this support tends that they'll actually split the company into two. To me, I think it's just the opposite. I think it's less likely. I mean, if you think about Amazon getting into grocery or healthcare, eventually financial services or other industries and the IOT opportunity to me, what they do, John, is they bring in together the cloud, data and AI and they go attack these new industries. I would think Jassy of all people would want to keep this thing together now whether or not the government allows them to do that. But what are your thoughts? I mean, you've asked Andy this before in your personal interviews about splitting the company. What are your thoughts? >> Well, Jon Fortt at CNBC always asked the same question every year. It's almost like the standard question. I kind of laugh and I ask it now too because I liked Jon Fortt. I think he's an awesome dude. And I'll, it's just a tongue in cheek, Jassy. He won't answer the question. Amazon, Bezos and Jassy have one thing in common. They're really good at not answering questions. So if you ask the same question. They'll just say, nothing's ever, never say never, that's his classic answer to everything. Never say never. And he's always said that to you. (chuckles) Some say, he's, flip-flopped on things but he's really customer driven. For example, he said at one point, no one should ever build a data center. Okay, that was a principle. And then they come out and they have now a hybrid strategy. And I called them out on that and said, hey, what, are you flip-flopping? You said at some point, no one should have a data center. He's like, well, we looked at it differently and what we meant was is that, it should all be cloud native. Okay. So that's kind of revision, but he's cool with that. He says, hey, we'll revise based on what customers are doing. VMware working with Amazon that no one ever thought that would happen. Okay. So, VMware has some techies, Raghu, for instance, over there, super top notch. He worked with Jassy, directly in his team Sanjay Poonen when they went to business school together, they cut a deal. And now Amazon essentially saved VMware, in my opinion. And Pat Gelsinger drove that deal. Now, Pat Gelsinger, CEO, Intel, and Pat told me that directly in candid conversation off theCUBE, he said, hey, we have to make a decision either we're going to be in cloud or we're not going to be in cloud, we will partner. And I'll see, he was Intel. He understood the Intel inside mentality. So that's good for VMware. So Jassy does these kinds of deals. He's not afraid he's got a good stomach for business and a relentless competitor. >> So, how do you think as you mentioned Jassy is a micromanager. He gets deep into the technology. Anybody who's seen his two hour, three hour keynotes. No, he has a really fine grasp of the technology across the entire stack. How do you think John, he will approach things like antitrust, the big tech lash of the unionization of the workforce at Amazon? How do you think Jassy will approach that? >> Well, I think one of the things that emerges Jassy, first of all, he's a huge sports fan. And many people don't know that but he's also progressive person. He's very progressive politically. He's been on the record and off the record saying things like, obviously, literacy has been big on, he's been on basically unrepresented minorities, pushing for that, and certainly cloud computing in tech, women in tech, he's been a big proponent. He's been a big supporter of Teresa Carlson. Who's been rising star at Amazon. People don't know who Teresa Carlson is and they should check out her. She's become one of the biggest leaders inside Amazon she's turned around public sector from the beginning. She ran that business, she's a global star. He's been a great leader and he's been getting, forget he's a micromanager, he's on top of the details. I mean, the word is, and nothing gets approved without Andy, Andy seeing it. But he's been progressive. He's been an Amazon original as they call it internally. He's progressive, he's got the business acumen but he's perfect for this pragmatic conversation that needs to happen. And again, because he's so technically strong having a CEO that's that proficient is going to give Amazon an advantage when they have to go in and change how DC works, for instance, or how the government geopolitical landscape works, because Amazon is now a global company with regions all over the place. So, I think he's pragmatic, he's open to listening and changing. I think that's a huge quality >> Well, when you think of this, just to set the context here for those who may not know, I mean, Amazon started as I said back in 2006 in March with simple storage service that later that year they announced EC2 which is their compute platform. And that was the majority of their business, is still a very large portion of their business but Amazon, our estimates are that in 2020, Amazon did 45 billion, 45.4 billion in revenue. That's actually an Amazon reported number. And just to give you a context, Azure about 26 billion GCP, Google about 6 billion. So you're talking about an industry that Amazon created. That's now $78 billion and Amazon at 45 billion. John they're growing at 30% annually. So it's just a massive growth engine. And then another story Jassy told us, is they, he and Jeff and the team talked early on about whether or not they should just sort of do an experiment, do a little POC, dip their toe in and they decided to go for it. Let's go big or go home as Michael Dell has said to us many times, I mean, pretty astounding. >> Yeah. One of the things about Jassy that people should know about, I think there's some compelling relative to the newest ascension to the CEO of Amazon, is that he's not afraid to do new things. For instance, I'll give you an example. The Amazon Web Services re-invent their annual conference grew to being thousands and thousands of people. And they would have a traditional after party. They called a replay, they'd have a band like every tech conference and their conference became so big that essentially, it was like setting up a live concert. So they were spending millions of dollars to set up basically a one night concert and they'd bring in great, great artists. So he said, hey, what's been all this cash? Why don't we just have a festival? So they did a thing called Intersect. They got LA involved from creatives and they basically built a weekend festival in the back end of re-invent. This was when real life was, before COVID and they turned into an opportunity because that's the way they think. They like to look at the resources, hey, we're already all in on this, why don't we just keep it for the weekend and charge some tickets and have a good time. He's not afraid to take chances on the product side. He'll go in and take a chance on a new market. That comes from directly from Bezos. They try stuff. They don't mind failing but they put a tight leash on measurement. They work backwards from the customer and they are not afraid to take chances. So, that's going to board well for him as he tries to figure out how Amazon navigates the contention on the political side when they get challenged for their dominance. And I think he's going to have to apply that pragmatic experimentation to new business models. >> So John I want you to take on AWS. I mean, despite the large numbers, I talked about 30% growth, Azure is growing at over 50% a year, GCP at 83%. So despite the large numbers and big growth the growth rates are slowing. Everybody knows that, we've reported it extensively. So the incoming CEO of Amazon Web Services has a TAM expansion challenge. And at some point they've got to decide, okay, how do we keep this growth engine? So, do you have any thoughts as to who might be the next CEO and what are some of their challenges as you see it? >> Well, Amazon is a real product centric company. So it's going to be very interesting to see who they go with here. Obviously they've been grooming a lot of people. There's been some turnover. You had some really strong executives recently leave, Jeff Wilkes, who was the CEO of the retail business. He retired a couple of months ago, formerly announced I think recently, he was probably in line. You had Mike Clayville, is now the chief revenue officer of Stripe. He ran all commercial business, Teresa Carlson stepped up to his role as well as running public sector. Again, she got more power. You have Matt Garman who ran the EC2 business, Stanford grad, great guy, super strong on the product side. He's now running all commercial sales and marketing. And he's also on the, was on Bezos' S team, that's the executive kind of team. Peter DeSantis is also on that S team. He runs all infrastructure. He took over for James Hamilton, who was the genius behind all the data center work that they've done and all the chip design stuff that they've innovated on. So there's so much technical innovation going on. I think you still going to see a leadership probably come from, I would say Matt Garman, in my opinion is the lead dog at this point, he's the lead horse. You could have an outside person come in depending upon how, who might be available. And that would probably come from an Andy Jassy network because he's a real fierce competitor but he's also a loyalist and he likes trust. So if someone comes in from the outside, it's going to be someone maybe he trusts. And then the other wildcards are like Teresa Carlson. Like I said, she is a great woman in tech who's done amazing work. I've profiled her many times. We've interviewed her many times. She took that public sector business with Amazon and changed the game completely. Outside the Jedi contract, she was in competitive for, had the big Trump showdown with the Jedi, with the department of defense. Had the CIA cloud. Amazon set the standard on public sector and that's directly the result of Teresa Carlson. But she's in the field, she's not a product person, she's kind of running that group. So Amazon has that product field kind of structure. So we'll see how they handle that. But those are the top three I think are going to be in line. >> So the obvious question that people always ask and it is a big change like this is, okay, in this case, what is Jassy going to bring in? And what's going to change? Maybe the flip side question is somewhat more interesting. What's not going to change in your view? Jassy has been there since nearly the beginning. What are some of the fundamental tenets that he's, that are fossilized, that won't change, do you think? >> I think he's, I think what's not going to change is Amazon, is going to continue to grow and develop their platform business and enable more SaaS players. That's a little bit different than what Microsoft's doing. They're more SaaS oriented, Office 365 is becoming their biggest application in terms of revenue on Microsoft side. So Amazon is going to still have to compete and enable more ecosystem partners. I think what's not going to change is that Bezos is still going to be in charge because executive chairman is just a code word for "not an active CEO." So in the corporate governance world when you have an executive chairman, that's essentially the person still in charge. And so he'll be in charge, will still be the boss of Andy Jassy and Jassy will be running all of Amazon. So I think that's going to be a little bit the same, but Jassy is going to be more in charge. I think you'll see a team change over, whether you're going to see some new management come in, Andy's management team will expand, I think Amazon will stay the same, Amazon Web Services. >> So John, last night, I was just making some notes about notable transitions in the history of the tech business, Gerstner to Palmisano, Gates to Ballmer, and then Ballmer to Nadella. One that you were close to, David Packard to John Young and then John Young to Lew Platt at the old company. Ellison to Safra and Mark, Jobs to Cook. We talked about Larry Page to Sundar Pichai. So how do you see this? And you've talked to, I remember when you interviewed John Chambers, he said, there is no rite of passage, East coast mini-computer companies, Edson de Castro, Ken Olsen, An Wang. These were executives who wouldn't let go. So it's of interesting to juxtapose that with the modern day executive. How do you see this fitting in to some of those epic transitions that I just mentioned? >> I think a lot of people are surprised at Jeff Bezos', even stepping down. I think he's just been such the face of Amazon. I think some of the poll numbers that people are doing on Twitter, people don't think it's going to make a big difference because he's kind of been that, leader hand on the wheel, but it's been its own ship now, kind of. And so depending on who's at the helm, it will be different. I think the Amazon choice of Andy wasn't obvious. And I think a lot of people were asking the question who was Andy Jassy and that's why we're doing this. And we're going to be doing more features on the Andy Jassy. We got a tons, tons of content that we've we've had shipped, original content with them. We'll share more of those key soundbites and who he is. I think a lot of people scratching their head like, why Andy Jassy? It's not obvious to the outsiders who don't know cloud computing. If you're in the competing business, in the digital transformation side, everyone knows about Amazon Web Services. Has been the most successful company, in my opinion, since I could remember at many levels just the way they've completely dominated the business and how they change others to be dominant. So, I mean, they've made Microsoft change, it made Google change and even then he's a leader that accepts conversations. Other companies, their CEOs hide behind their PR wall and they don't talk to people. They won't come on Clubhouse. They won't talk to the press. They hide behind their PR and they feed them, the media. Jassy is not afraid to talk to reporters. He's not afraid to talk to people, but he doesn't like people who don't know what they're talking about. So he doesn't suffer fools. So, you got to have your shit together to talk to Jassy. That's really the way it is. And that's, and he'll give you mind share, like he'll answer any question except for the ones that are too tough for him to answer. Like, are you, is facial recognition bad or good? Are you going to spin out AWS? I mean these are the hard questions and he's got a great team. He's got Jay Carney, former Obama press secretary working for him. He's been a great leader. So I'm really bullish on, is a good choice. >> We're going to jump into the Clubhouse here and open it up shortly. John, the last question for you is competition. Amazon as a company and even Jassy specifically I always talk about how they don't really focus on the competition, they focus on the customer but we know that just observing these folks Bezos is very competitive individual. Jassy, I mean, you know him better than I, very competitive individual. So, and he's, Jassy has been known to call out Oracle. Of course it was in response to Larry Ellison's jabs at Amazon regarding database. But, but how do you see that? Do you see that changing at all? I mean, will Amazon get more publicly competitive or they stick to their knitting, you think? >> You know this is going to sound kind of a weird analogy. And I know there's a lot of hero worshiping on Elon Musk but Elon Musk and Andy Jassy have a lot of similarities in the sense of their brilliance. They got both a brilliant people, different kinds of backgrounds. Obviously, they're running different things. They both are builders, right? If you were listening to Elon Musk on Clubhouse the other night, what was really striking was not only the magic of how it was all orchestrated and what he did and how he interviewed Robin Hood. He basically is about building stuff. And he was asked questions like, what advice do you give startups? He's like, if you need advice you shouldn't be doing startups. That's the kind of mentality that Jassy has, which is, it's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart, but Elon Musk is a builder. Jassy builds, he likes to build stuff, right? And so you look at all the things that he's done with AWS, it's been about enabling people to be successful with the tools that they need, adding more services, creating things that are lower price point. If you're an entrepreneur and you're over the age of 30, you know about AWS because you know what, it's cheaper to start a business on Amazon Web Services than buying servers and everyone knows that. If you're under the age of 25, you might not know 50 grand to a hundred thousand just to start something. Today you get your credit card down, you're up and running and you can get Clubhouses up and running all day long. So the next Clubhouse will be on Amazon or a cloud technology. And that's because of Andy Jassy right? So this is a significant executive and he continue, will bring that mindset of building. So, I think the digital transformation, we're in the digital engine club, we're going to see a complete revolution of a new generation. And I think having a new leader like Andy Jassy will enable in my opinion next generation talent, whether that's media and technology convergence, media technology and art convergence and the fact that he digs music, he digs sports, he digs tech, he digs media, it's going to be very interesting to see, I think he's well-poised to be, and he's soft-spoken, he doesn't want the glamorous press. He doesn't want the puff pieces. He just wants to do what he does and he puts his game do the talking. >> Talking about advice at startups. Just a quick aside. I remember, John, you and I when we were interviewing Scott McNealy former CEO of Sun Microsystems. And you asked him advice for startups. He said, move out of California. It's kind of tongue in cheek. I heard this morning that there's a proposal to tax the multi-billionaires of 1% annually not just the one-time tax. And so Jeff Bezos of course, has a ranch in Texas, no tax there, but places all over. >> You see I don't know. >> But I don't see Amazon leaving Seattle anytime soon, nor Jassy. >> Jeremiah Owyang did a Clubhouse on California. And the basic sentiment is that, it's California is not going away. I mean, come on. People got to just get real. I think it's a fad. Yeah. This has benefits with remote working, no doubt, but people will stay here in California, the network affects beautiful. I think Silicon Valley is going to continue to be relevant. It's just going to syndicate differently. And I think other hubs like Seattle and around the world will be integrated through remote work and I think it's going to be much more of a democratizing effect, not a win lose. So that to me is a huge shift. And look at Amazon, look at Amazon and Microsoft. It's the cloud cities, so people call Seattle. You've got Google down here and they're making waves but still, all good stuff. >> Well John, thanks so much. Let's let's wrap and let's jump into the Clubhouse and hear from others. Thanks so much for coming on, back on theCUBE. And many times we, you and I've done this really. It was a pleasure having you. Thanks for your perspectives. And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (soft ambient music)

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel AWS and our community partners. >>Hey, welcome back. You're ready, Jeffrey here with the Cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios with our continuing coverage of aws reinvent 2020 the virtual event. We're excited to be back. We've been coming to reinvent for years and years and years, I think since 2013 1st years virtual But that's the way it is. And we're gonna jump into Cloud and government and D o d. And we're really excited to have our next guest. You know a lot about the topic. We have Robert Grote. He is the VP of technology and strategy from spark Tronics coming to us from Virginia. Great to see you, Robert. >>Great. Thank you. >>And joining him is Anthony Voltaggio, the CTO of Smartronix. Anthony. Good to see you as well. Thank you. Great. So let's jump into it. I think Rob, we had you on a couple of years ago. I I looked it up. It was early October 18 and you guys were getting a lot of success with cloud in government and I think it was before the Jedi and all that other stuff was going down. Two years is forever in cloud time. I wonder if you could just share a little bit about how the market has changed since I think it was February or March of 2018 to now late November 2020 in terms of cloud and government and Department of Defense. And you're highly regulated customers. >>Sure, I think one of the things that's changed is that security certainly used to be a headwind on bond. Now we're actually seeing it more of a tailwind where our customers, especially are heavily regulated, compliance driven customers in the public sector and the D. O. D are really looking at new ways of embracing the value of the cloud. So one of the things that has changed is that maybe two years ago, we were looking at How do we move digital estate from on premise into the cloud environment? We're now we're looking at. How do we actually achieve value in the cloud? How do we allow our customers to optimize their portfolio? How do they modernize their application footprint in a in a secure way and some of the things that we focused on, particularly smartronix, is how do we remove that friction that exists when a new kind of legacy customer really wants to transform the way that they deliver services. So we built, uh, capabilities that really allow them to more rapidly migrate their services into the cloud environment. We created and have an 80 0, now for a cloud assured manage services, which means that our customers who want to meet the rigorous security mandates now have that ability to utilize our services when they're deploying these services. And it really enables them to focus on the development of the modernization, you know, versus having to do the cumbersome components of security compliance and operation on def. You if you look at what we're trying to build and trying Thio intersect with where our customers we're going, they really want to get to that pace of innovation that the cloud provides. Um, you know, I think I've said this before to the Cube that the slope of disruption is correlated to the pace of innovation. And if you continue to build technical debt like our customers may have done in the past, they're gonna fall behind and it might be okay, um, for, you know, Blockbuster to fall behind the Netflix or for uber disrupted industry. But for our customers, there's national security consequences when they fall behind. So we've got to create a platform and a capability that enables them to innovate on, deliver very agile services rapidly. >>And then I wanna go. I wanna go to you because I think Robin, in your last interview, talked about your customers very secure, highly regulated, compliance driven environments. Right? And? And to be clear, you guys sell a lot to Department of Defense and all the various branches of the U. S. Military etcetera. You know, Anthony, a lot of talk of digital transformation on the commercial side and and people going right And then, of course, all the jokes and memes about Covic, you know, being the accelerator to that for >>your >>customers. The accelerators thio at modernization in the digital transformation are very different. It's not about necessarily the competitors down the street, but it's about some nasty competitors that want to cause this real harm. How how have they adopted? You know, kind of this this digital transformation and what's different in terms of accelerating it in your customer base. >>We're looking our defense customers and national security customers. Absolutely. The velocity and scale of cloud is becoming an enabler again. Looking at those information work was that they have looking at the nation state adversaries that we're facing right now. Information is information warfare. So if we're not ready to scale, innovate at much higher velocity than we have in the past, we're gonna become victim to those attacks. Methodologies that score matters of using so that the scale and power of the cloud as well is that tailwind of all these authorized services that are offered by Amazon that are already at the federal federal high and D o D. Impact. Those for higher, up to impact level six really, really enable them to go ahead and meet that mission. But mad and speed and agility. They need toe mash that for necessary, >>right? Well lets you just talked about impact level, and I want to dig into that for a little bit because in doing research on you guys and a lot of the solutions that customers you talk about, there's there's constant conversation about these impact levels Impact level for impact level five Impact Level six Again. It's highly regulated industry. You guys have a very, very high bar that you have to hit in your solutions. What does impact level mean and why is it important? And how are you basically working your way up the chart, which I assume is a much more impactful? Not not no pun intended, but much more significant solution delivery. >>So impact levels really have to do with information risk. So what is the level of information that that system is processing? So as you move up the impact levels, that information becomes more more critical to national security. So on impact Level four system may have to do with standard mission operations and Ministry of Task, etcetera, where when you go up the staff to impeccable five and even to impact level six or higher, you're really dealing with, let's say, in the d. O d, uh, perspective, the horror fighter eso. Now you're dealing with where that war fighters deployed the capabilities of the water fighter that they're leveraging To fight that battle against the adversary eso you have to put more and more rigorous controls around that information to ensure the adversaries can gain the tactical advantage over our war fighters. >>It's really interesting. You know how all these systems are really designed? Uh, toe work together. And as you said, kind of for that, that warfighter, if you you know, you you watch anything on defense, it's kind of the point into the stick, but there's a whole lot of support behind that behind that person at the very end to help them get the information to be successful in their job and support them. Um, etcetera. But I'm curious. Have you seen a change in attitude in terms of not only the data and the information in the systems as a support for the war fighter, but in fact, that data itself being a significant asset as well as a significant target, probably bigger and more valuable than an aircraft carrier or any other kind of traditional defense assets? >>Yeah, I would say we've definitely seen that change. Our our our customers air really looking at data and aggregate and when you're when you're building a cloud profile when you're building a portfolio systems, um, and it's all in a single type environment or an enclave where you can unlock the value of that data, the aggregate of all of those applications. The aggregate of that data has increased value, and that allows you to do a lot more things with it. Allows you to innovate a lot. Mawr toe. Learn more about that data on We're seeing our customers really looking at. How can they unlock that value? Whether it's looking at improving the supply chain, looking at data feeds that they're able to aggregate from commercial sources as well as sources that they're getting in a distributed fashion or whether it's just, you know, looking at, how can they improve the efficiency of of delivering services to the to the warfighter? Um, it really is about unlocking that value of data. So that's why it's also important that we have capabilities that protect that data. And then we provide more capabilities that allow our customers to be able to leverage as the C. S. P s as AWS innovates. Allow them to leverage these new capabilities much more rapidly than they could in the past, >>right? Well, and you talk about technical debt and you know there's kind of technical dead and There's application dead, and there's kind of application portfolio stuff that that you have right that may or may not work well, that's probably running and has been running for years. That doesn't necessarily all have to be modernized. You said Sometimes you know it's it's best to leave. Leave it as it lies. How are you helping people figure out? You know what, what to modernize, what to leave it as as it is. And then you know, or you know how much effort should really be spent on new on new applications and new development. You know, taking taking advantage of the latest because that's kind of a tricky portfolio strategy. And as you said, there's a whole lot of legacy stuff that's still running in those old data centers. >>You mentioned the key word there and that strategy. Our our customers are looking to us to help them evaluate their portfolio, determine what things that they should be doing next, the sequencing events and how they can unlock some of those values in the cloud. So, you know, one of the things that we talk about is that ability to even if you're taking stuff from a legacy environment and moving that estate into the cloud. There's certain things that you can do to opportunistically re factor and get value out of the cloud. You don't have to rewrite the application every time there's things that you can do to just re factor. Um, and one of those components is that when you look at cloud and you look at the a p I nature of the cloud, um, transparency is the gift of the cloud. And automation is how you get value out of that gift. And when when you look at how automation and transparency you're kind of tied together for our customers and you look at the fact that again everything's in a P I based, you know, with, you know, full non repudiation who made that call when they made that call? You've got an ability to create this autonomic response system, and this is This is a key part of application modernization, giving that customer the ability to rapidly respond to an event, create automation, create run books, use you know, advanced technologies like machine learning for anomaly detection, create, you know, security orchestration, all of those components when you could build that framework. Then your customers can even take some of their legacy assets and be able to utilize, you know, the high value of the cloud and respond to events much faster and in, um, or automated an autonomic manner. >>I love that transparency in automation. And I want to go back to you. Anthony, you've been doing this for a long time. Um, you didn't have these tools at your disposal before, and you didn't have necessarily the automation that you have before. And I think more importantly, you know, interesting thing that Rob you touched on on on your earlier interview a couple of years back, you know, kind of this scale learning something identified by by Bill Chamorro's I once in terms of calling it out where you learn something in one place and you can apply that learning, you know, across many, many places. And then the other piece. I want you to comment on its automation because, as we know, a lot of errors happen from silly things, fat fingers, bad copy paste, putting in a wrong config code. This that and the other. So, by adding mawr and Mawr automation and continuing to kind of remove potential little slip ups that can cause big big problems. It's a really different world that you've got in the tools that you have in your portfolio to offer these solutions up to your clients >>absolutely again, as we've learned MAWR Maura about these repeatable patterns that have happened across our different customers. That allows us to create that run book automation library that then allows our team and our capabilities scale across multiple workloads and kind of like Robert identified earlier. There's a lot of these cognitive services, and I'll take Amazon a specific example. Guard duty. It is a very innovative capability with M. L. A. I behind it that allow you to look at these access patterns and communication patterns of these application workloads and quickly identify threats. But the automation and road book and orchestration that you can build behind this then allows you to leverage that library to immediately respond to these events. When you see a threat and you see that pattern, your your ability to rapidly respond to that and mitigate that threat, Israel allows your business and information systems continue providing no the primary business use case and again in our GOP customer. National security system. Customers dividing to the warfighter complete their mission. >>Yeah, well, what a good and let you give. Give a plug for some of your processes and techniques. You have something that you call fast, um, to help people, you know, go through this decision process. And I think, as you said, Rob, you know, you gotta have some strategy before you start making some decisions. And also, this thing that we're seeing out there called the shift left. Um, what does that mean to you? What does it mean to your customers? Why is that important? Why should people know about it? Start with you, Rob. >>So what? We notice we've been doing cloud services, you know, since 2009, Really? One of the first eight of us public sector partners delivering the first capabilities to that market. And what we noticed is that ah, lot of organizations found it easy to move one or two workloads into the cloud. But they struggled in making a cloud, a true enterprise asset. So we took a step back and we created something that we call foundational agile strategic transformation. And that's fast. It's a It's a program that we developed that allows complex organizations. Security minded organizations understand What are all the foundational things that need to be in place to really treat cloud as an enterprise asset? And it covers much more than just the technical components. It covers the organizational components. It covers all the stakeholders around security. But one of the key things that we've changed in the past couple of years is how do we not only look at, you know, leveraging the cloud is an enterprise asset, But how do we allow them to accelerate how they can get the value out of the cloud, modernize their applications, create thes capabilities? And the shift left component of fast is providing as much capability all the way down to where the developer is, where you have maybe dead set cops when it used to be a developer on one side and operations on the other. Security is kind of a binding function. Now we're talking about how can we create more capability, right at the point of development? How can we shift that capability? And I think the role of the managed service provider is to enable that in an organization provide capability, provide operations capability but also help them in a You know, we use the term SRE quite a bit. Site reliability, engineering. How can we really help them continuously optimize their portfolio and build a set of capabilities and services? So when they're building new applications, they're not adding to their technical debt. >>That's great and so and so, so important. And it's just been so interesting. Toe watch again. A security specifically for Public Cloud in AWS has become from you know, what was potentially a concern and a headwind to now being a tailwind. And all you have to do is go to go to some of the the architectural keynotes my some of my favorites and see the scale in massive investments that they can put into infrastructure. And they can put into security that no single company, unless you have the biggest, biggest ones you know, can possibly invested to be able to leverage that opportunity. And obviously, Teresa Carlson and the Public Sector team have done a really good job and giving you guys the solutions that satisfy the very tight requirements that you're very important customers have. So it's really a great story and really enjoy learning mawr and continued success to you guys And, uh, and your teams and your importance, your customers and all the important stuff that they protect for us. Uh, eso thank you very much. All right. Thank you. All right, well, signing off. That's Robert and Anthony. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Ongoing coverage of aws reinvent 2020. Thanks for watching. See you next time. Thank you.

>>Okay, >>listen, we're gearing up for the start of the snowflake Data Cloud Summit, and we wanna go back to the early roots of Snowflake. We've got some of the founding engineers here. Abdul Monir, Ashish Motive, Allah and Alison Lee There three individuals that were at snowflake in the early years and participated in many of the technical decisions that led to the platform and is making snowflake famous today. Folks, great to see you. Thanks so much for taking some time out of your busy schedules. Hey, it's gotta be really gratifying. Thio, See this platform that you've built, you know, taking off and changing businesses. So I'm sure it was always smooth sailing. Right? There were. There were no debates. Wherever. >>I've never seen an engineer get into the bed. >>Alright, So seriously so take us back to the early days. You guys, you know, choose whoever wants to start. But what was it like early on? We're talking 2013 here, right? >>When I think back to the early days of Snowflake, I just think of all of us sitting in one room at the time. You know, we just had an office that was one room with, you know, 12 or 13 engineers sitting there clacking away on our keyboards, uh, working really hard, turning out code, uh, punctuated by you know, somebody asking a question about Hey, what should we do about this, or what should we do about that? And then everyone kind of looking up from their keyboards and getting into discussions and debates about the work that we're doing. >>So so Abdul it was just kind of heads down headphones on, just coating or e think there was >>a lot of talking and followed by a lot of typing. Andi, I think there were periods of time where where you know, anyone could just walk in into the office and probably out of the office and all the here is probably people, uh, typing away at their keyboards. And one of my member vivid, most vivid memories is actually I used to sit right across from Alison, and there's these huge to two huge monitor monitors between us and I would just here typing away in our keyboard, and sometimes I was thinking and and and, uh and all that type and got me nervous because it seemed like Alison knew exactly what what, what she needed to do, and I was just still thinking about it. >>So she she was just like bliss for for you as a developer engineer was it was a stressful time. What was the mood? So when you don't have >>a whole lot of customers, there's a lot of bliss. But at the same time, there was a lot of pressure on us to make sure that we build the product. There was a time line ahead of us. We knew we had to build this in a certain time frame. Um, so one thing I'll add to what Alison and Abdulle said is we did a lot of white boarding as well. There are a lot of discussions, and those discussions were a lot of fun. They actually cemented what we wanted to build. They made sure everyone was in tune, and and there we have it. >>Yes, so I mean, it is a really exciting time doing any start up. But when you know when you have to make decisions and development, invariably you come to a fork in the road. So I'm curious as to what some of those forks might have been. How you guys decided You know which fork to take. Was there a Yoda in the room that served as the Jedi master? I mean, how are those decisions made? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I think one of a Zai think back. One of the memories that that sticks out in my mind is is this, uh, epic meeting and one of our conference rooms called Northstar. Many of our conference rooms are named after ski resorts because the founders, they're really into skiing. And that's why that's where the snowflake name comes from. So there was this epic meeting and I'm not even sure exactly what topic we were discussing. I think it was It was the sign up flow and and there were a few different options on the table and and and one of the options that that people were gravitating Teoh, one of the founders, didn't like it and and on, and they said a few times that there's this makes no sense. There's no other system in the world that does it this way, and and I think one of the other founders said, uh, that's exactly why we should do it this way. And or at least seriously, consider this option. So I think there was always this, um, this this, uh, this tendency and and and this impulse that that we needed to think big and think differently and and not see the world the way it is but the way we wanted it to be and then work our way backwards and try to make it happen. >>Alison, Any fork in the road moments that you remember. >>Well, I'm just thinking back to a really early meeting with sheesh! And and a few of our founders where we're debating something probably not super exciting to a lot of people outside of hardcore database people, which was how to represent our our column metadata. Andi, I think it's funny that you that you mentioned Yoda because we often make jokes about one of our founders. Teary Bond refer to him as Yoda because he hasn't its tendency to say very concise things that kind of make you scratch your head and say, Wow, why didn't I think of that? Or you know, what exactly does that mean? I never thought about it that way. So I think when I think of the Yoda in the room, it was definitely Terry, >>uh, excuse you. Anything you can add to this, this conversation >>I'll agree with Alison on the you're a comment for short. Another big fork in the road, I recall, was when we changed. What are meta store where we store our own internal metadata? We used >>to use >>a tool called my sequel and we changed it. Thio another database called Foundation TV. I think that was a big game changer for us. And, you know, it was a tough decision. It took us a long time. For the longest time, we even had our own little branch. It was called Foundation DB, and everybody was developing on that branch. It's a little embarrassing, but, you know, those are the kind of decisions that have altered altered the shape of snowflake. >>Yeah. I mean, these air, really, you know, down in the weeds, hardcore stuff that a lot of people that might not be exposed to What would you say was the least obvious technical decision that you had to make it the time. And I wanna ask you about the most obvious to. But what was the what was the one that was so out of the box? I mean, you kind of maybe mentioned it a little bit before, but what if we could double click on that? >>Well, I think one of the core decisions in our architectures the separation of compute and storage on Do you know that is really court architecture. And there's so many features that we have today, um, for instance, data sharing zero copy cloning that that we couldn't have without that architecture. Er, um and I think it was both not obvious. And when we told people about it in the early days, there was definitely skepticism about being able to make that work on being able Thio have that architecture and still get great performance. >>Anything? Yeah, anything that was, like, clearly obvious, that is, Maybe that maybe that was the least and the most that that separation from computing story because it allowed you toe actually take advantage of cloud native. But But was there an obvious one that, you know, it's sort of dogma that you, you know, philosophically lived behind. You know, to this day, >>I think one really obvious thing, um is the sort of no tuning, no knobs, ease of use story behind snowflake. Andi and I say it's really obvious because everybody wants their system to be easy to use. But then I would say there are tons of decisions behind that, that it's not always obvious three implications of of such a choice, right, and really sticking to that. And I think that that's really like a core principle behind Snowflake that that led to a lot of non obvious decisions as a result of sticking to that principle. So, yeah, I >>think to add to that now, now you've gotten us thinking I think another really interesting one was was really, um, should we start from scratch or or should we use something that already exists and and build on top of that? And I think that was one of these, um, almost philosophical kind of stances that we took that that a lot of the systems that were out there were the way they were because because they weren't built for the for the platforms that they were running on, and the big thing that we were targeting was the cloud. And so one of the big stances we took was that we were gonna build it from scratch, and we weren't gonna borrow a single line of code from many other database out there. And this was something that really shocked a lot of people and and many times that this was pretty crazy and it waas. But this is how you build great products. >>That's awesome. All right. She should give you the last word. We got, like, just like 30 seconds left to bring us home >>Your till date. Actually, one of those said shocks people when you talk to them and they say, Wow, you're not You're not really using any other database and you build this entirely yourself. The number of people who actually can build a database from scratch are fairly limited. The group is fairly small, and so it was really a humongous task. And as you mentioned, you know, it really changed the direction off how we design the database. What we what does the database really mean? Tow us right the way Snowflake has built a database. It's really a number of organs that come together and form the body and That's also a concept that's novel to the database industry. >>Guys, congratulations. You must be so proud. And, uh, there's gonna be awesome watching the next next decade, so thank you so much for sharing your stories. >>Thanks, dude. >>Thank you.

>> Okay, listen, we're gearing up for the start of the Snowflake Data Cloud Summit and we want to go back to the early roots of Snowflake. We got some of the founding engineers here, Abdul Muneer, Ashish Modivala, and Alison Lee. They're three individuals that were at Snowflake in the early years and participated in many of the technical decisions that led to the platform that is making Snowflake famous today. Folks, great to see you. Thanks so much for taking some time out of your busy schedules. >> Than you for having us. >> Same. >> Hey, it's got to be really gratifying to see this platform that you've built, you know, taking off and changing businesses. So, I'm sure it was always smooth sailing, right? There were no debates, were there ever? >> Never. >> Now, I've never seen an engineer get into a debate. (laughter) >> All right, so seriously though, so take us back to the early days, you guys, you know, choose whoever wants to start but, what was it like early on? We're talking 2013 here, right? >> That's right. >> When I think back to the early days of Snowflake, I just think of all of us sitting in one room at the time you know, we just had an office that was one room with you know, 12 or 13 engineers sitting there, clacking away at our keyboards, working really hard, churning out code, punctuated by, you know, somebody asking a question about, "Hey, what should we do about this? Or what should we do about that?" And then everyone kind of looking up from their keyboards and getting into discussions and debates about, about the work that we were doing. >> So Abdul, it was just kind of heads down, headphones on, just coding, or >> I think there was a lot of talking and followed by a lot of typing. And, and I think there were periods of time where, you know, anyone could just walk in into the office and probably out of the office and all they'd hear is probably people typing away at their keyboards. And one of my vivid, most vivid memories is is actually I used to sit right across from Alison and there's these huge two, two huge monitors monitors between us. And I would just hear her typing away at our keyboard. And sometimes I was thinking and and all that typing got me nervous because it seemed like Alison knew exactly what, what she needed to do, and I was just still thinking about it. >> So Ashish was this like bliss for you as a developer, an engineer, or was it, was it a stressful time? What was the mood? >> When you don't have a whole lot of customers there's a lot of bliss, but at the same time, there's a lot of pressure on us to make sure that we build the product. There was a timeline ahead of us, we knew we had to build this in a certain timeframe. So one thing I'll add to what Alison and Abdul said is we did a lot of white boarding as well. There were a lot of discussions and those discussions were a lot of fun. They actually cemented what we wanted to build. They made sure that everyone was in tune and there we have it. >> (Dave) Yeah, so, I mean, it is a really exciting time doing any startup. When you have to make decisions in development and variably you come to a fork in the road. So I'm curious as to what some of those forks might've been, how you guys decided, you know, which fork to take. Was there a Yoda in the room that served as the Jedi master? I mean, how are those decisions made? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah. That's an interesting question. And I think one of, as I think back, one of the memories that, that sticks out in my mind is this epic meeting in one of our conference rooms called North star. And many of our conference rooms are named after ski resorts because the founders are really into skiing and that's why, that's where the Snowflake names comes from. So there was this epic meeting and and I'm not even sure exactly what topic we were discussing. I think it was, it was the signup flow and there were a few different options on the table. and one of the options that, that people were gravitating to one of the founders didn't like it. And they said a few times that there's this makes no sense, there's no other system in the world that does it this way. And I think one of the other founders said that's exactly why we should do it this way. And, or at least seriously considered this option. So I think there was always this this tendency and this impulse that that we needed to think big and think differently and not see the world the way it is but the, the way we wanted it to be and then work our way backwards and try to make it happen. >> Alison, any fork in the road moments that you remember? >> Well, I'm just thinking back to a really early meeting with Ashish and a few of our founders where we were debating something, probably not super exciting to a lot of people outside of hardcore database people which was how to represent our column metadata. And I think it's funny that you, that you mentioned Yoda because we often make jokes about one of our founders Terry and referred to him as Yoda, because he has this tendency to say very concise things that kind of make you scratch your head and say, "Wow why didn't I think of that?" Or, you know, what exactly does that mean? I never thought about it that way. So I think when I think of the Yoda in the room, it was definitely Terry. >> Ashish, anything you can add to this conversation? >> I'll agree with Alison on the Yoda comment, for sure. Another big fork in the road I recall was when we changed one of our meta store where we store our on internal metadata. We used to use a tool called MySQL and we changed it to another database called FoundationDB, I think that was a big game changer for us. And, you know, it was a tough decision, it took us a long time. For the longest time we even had our own little branch it was called FoundationDB and everybody who was developing on that branch. It's a little embarrassing, but, you know, those are the kinds of decisions that alter the shape of Snowflake. >> Yeah, I mean, these are really, you know, down in the weeds hardcore stuff that a lot of people might not be exposed to. What would you say was the least obvious technical decision that you had to make at the time? And I want to ask you about the most obvious too, but what was the one that was so out of the box? I mean, you kind of maybe mentioned it a little bit before but I wonder if we could double click on that? >> Well, I think one of the core decisions in our architecture is the separation of compute and storage. And, you know, that is really core to our architecture, and there are so many features that we have today for instance, data sharing, zero copy cloning, that we couldn't have without that architecture. And I think it was both not obvious, and when we told people about it in the early days there was definitely skepticism about being able to make that work and being able to have that architecture and still get great performance. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Anything that was like clearly obvious that maybe that, maybe that was the least and the most that, that separation from compute and store, because it allowed you to actually take advantage of Cloud native. But was there an obvious one that you know, is it sort of dogma that you, you know philosophically live by, you know, to this day? >> I think one really obvious thing is the sort of no tuning, no knobs, ease of use story behind Snowflake. And I say, it's really obvious because everybody wants their system to be easy to use. But then I would say there were tons of decisions behind that, that it's not always obvious, the implications, of such a choice, right? And really sticking to that. And I think that that's really like a core principle behind Snowflake, that led to a lot of non-obvious decisions as a result of sticking to that principle. >> So >> I think, to add to that, now you've grabbed us thinking. I think another really interesting one was really, should we start from scratch or should we use something that already exists and build on top of that? And I think that was one of these almost philosophical kind of stances that we took, that a lot of the systems that were out there were the way they were, because, because they weren't built for the, for the platforms that they were running on. And the big thing that we were targeting was the Cloud. And so one of the big stances we took was that we were going to build from scratch. And we weren't going to borrow a single line of code from many other database out there. And this was something that really shocked a lot of people and many times that this was pretty crazy, and it was, but this is how you build great products. >> That's awesome. All right Ashish, I should give you the last word. We got like just like 30 seconds left, bring us home. >> Till date, actually one of those said shocks people when you talk to them and they say, "Wow, you are naturally using any other database, and you build this entirely yourself." The number of people who actually can build a database from scratch are fairly limited, the group is fairly small. And so it was really a humongous task, and as you've mentioned, you know, it really changed the direction of how we designed a database. What we, what does the database really mean to us, right? The way Snowflake has built a database, it's really a number of organs that come together and form the body. And that's also a concept that's novel to the database industry. >> Guys, congratulations, you must be so proud and it's going to be awesome watching the next decade. So thank you so much for sharing your stories. >> Thanks too. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Okay listen, we're gearing up for the start of the Snowflake Data Cloud Summit. And we want to go back to the early roots of Snowflake. We got some of the founding engineers here, Abdul Munir, Ashish Motivala and Allison Lee. They're three individuals that were at Snowflake, in the early years and participated in many of the technical decisions. That led to the platform and is making Snowflake famous today. Folks great to see you. Thanks so much for taking some time out of your busy schedules. >> Thank you for having us- >> Same. >> It's got to be really gratifying to see this platform that you've built, taking off and changing businesses. So I'm sure it was always smooth sailing, right? There were no debates, where there ever? >> I've never seen an engineer get into a debate. >> Yeah alright, so seriously. So take us back to the early days, you guys choose whoever wants to start, but what was it like, early on we're talking 2013 here, right? >> That's right. >> When I think back to the early days of Snowflake. I just think of all of us sitting in one room at the time, we just had an office that was one room with 12 or 13 engineers sitting there, clacking away at our keyboards, working really hard, churning out code punctuated by somebody asking a question about hey, what should we do about this? Or what should we do about that? And then everyone kind of looking up from their keyboards and getting into discussions and debates about the work that we were doing. >> So, Abdul was it just kind of heads down, headphones on just coding or? >> I think there was a lot of talking and followed by a lot of typing. And I think there were periods of time where anyone could just walk in into the office and probably out of the office and all they'd hear is probably people typing away their keyboards. And one of my most vivid memory is actually I used to sit right across from Allison and there was these two huge monitors between us. And I would just hear her typing away at her keyboard. And sometimes I was thinking and all that typing got me nervous because it seemed like Allison knew exactly what she needed to do. And I was just still thinking about it. >> So Ashish was this like bliss for you as a developer or an engineer? Or was it a stressful time? What was the mood? >> Then when you don't have a whole lot of customers, there's a lot of bliss, but at the same time, there's a lot of pressure on us to make sure that we build the product. There was a timeline ahead of us. We knew we had to build this in a certain timeframe. So one thing I'll add to what Allison and Abdul said is, we did a lot of whiteboarding as well. There were a lot of discussions and those discussions were a lot of fun. They actually cemented what we wanted to build. They made sure everyone was in tune and there we have it. >> Yeah, it is a really exciting time. We can do it any start-up. When you have to make decisions in development and variably you come to a fork in the road. So I'm curious as to what some of those forks might've been, how you guys decided which fork to take. Was there a Yoda in the room that served as the Jedi Master? How are those decisions made? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> That's an interesting question. And as I think back one of the memories that sticks out in my mind is this epic meeting in one of our conference rooms called Northstar and many of our conference rooms are named after ski resorts because the founders are really into skiing. And that's where the Snowflake name comes from. So there was this epic meeting and I'm not even sure exactly what topic we were discussing. I think it was the sign up flow and there were a few different options on the table. And one of the options that people were gravitating to, one of the founders didn't like it. And they said a few times that this makes no sense. There's no other system in the world that does it this way. And I think one of the other founders said, that's exactly why we should do it this way or at least seriously consider this option. So, I think there was always this tendency and this impulse that we needed to think big and think differently and not see the world the way it is, but the way we wanted it to be and then work our way backwards and try to make it happen. >> Allison, any fork in the road moments that you remember? >> Well, I'm just thinking back to a really early meeting with Ashish and a few of our founders where we're debating something probably not super exciting to a lot of people outside of hardcore database people, which was how to represent our column metadata. And I think it's funny that you that you mentioned Yoda, because we often make jokes about one of our founders Thierry and referred to him as Yoda, because he has this tendency to say very concise things that kind of make you scratch your head and say, wow, why didn't I think of that? Or what exactly does that mean? I never thought about it that way. So, when I think of the Yoda in the room, it was definitely Thierry, >> Ashish is there anything you can add to this conversation? >> I'll agree with Allison on the Yoda comment for sure. Another big fork in the road I recall was when we changed one of our meadow store, where we store and are willing to try and metadata. We used to use a tool called my SQL and we changed it to another database called foundation DV. I think that was a big game changer for us. And it was a tough decision. It took us a long time, for the longest time we even had our own little branch it was called foundation DV and everybody was developing on that branch, it's a little embarrassing but those are the kinds of decisions that have altered the shape of Snowflake. >> Yeah, these are really down in the weeds hardcore stuff that a lot of people might not be exposed to. What would you say was the least obvious technical decision that you had to make at the time? And I want to ask you about the most obvious too, but what was the one that was so out of the box? You kind of maybe mentioned it a little bit before, but I wonder if we could double click on that? >> Well, I think one of the core decisions in our architecture is the separation of compute and storage that is really core to our architecture. And there's so many features that we have today, for instance data sharing, zero-copy cloning, that we couldn't have without that architecture. And I think it was both not obvious. And when we told people about it in the early days, there was definitely skepticism about being able to make that work and being able to have that architecture and still get great performance. >> Exactly- >> Yeah, anything that was like clearly obvious, maybe that was the least and the most that separation from compute and store, 'cause it allowed you to actually take advantage of cloud native, but was there an obvious one that is it sort of dogma that you philosophically live behind to this day? >> I think one really obvious thing is the sort of no tuning, no knobs, ease of use story behind Snowflake. And I say it's really obvious because everybody wants their system to be easy to use. But then I would say there were tons of decisions behind that, that it's not always obvious the implications of such a choice, right? And really sticking to that. And I think that that's really like a core principle behind Snowflake that led to a lot of non-obvious decisions as a result of sticking to that principle. >> To wrap to that now you've gotten us thinking, I think another really interesting one was really, should we start from scratch or should we use something that already exists and build on top of that. And I think that was one of these almost philosophical kind of stances that we took, that a lot of the systems that were out there were the way they were because they weren't built for the platforms that they were running on. And the big thing that we were targeting was the cloud. And so one of the big stances we took was that we were going to build it from scratch and we weren't going to borrow a single line of code from any other database out there. And this was something that really shocked a lot of people and many times that this was pretty crazy. And it was, but this is how you build great products. >> That's awesome, all right, Ashish give your last word, we got like just 30 seconds left take, bring us home. >> Till date actually one of those that shocks people when you talk to them and they say, wow, you're not really using any other database? And you build this entirely yourself? The number of people who actually can build a database from scratch are fairly limited. The group is fairly small. And so it was really a humongous task. And as you've mentioned, it really changed the direction of how we designed the database. What does the database really mean to us, right? The way Snowflake has built a database, it's really a number of organs that come together and form the body. And that's also a concept that's novel to the database industry. >> Guys congratulations, you must be so proud and it's going to be awesome watching the next decade. So thank you so much for sharing your stories. >> Thanks Dave. >> Thank you- >> Thank you.

>> Hi, my name is Andy Clemenko. I'm a Senior Solutions Engineer at StackRox. Thanks for joining us today for my talk on labels, labels, labels. Obviously, you can reach me at all the socials. Before we get started, I like to point you to my GitHub repo, you can go to andyc.info/dc20, and it'll take you to my GitHub page where I've got all of this documentation, socials. Before we get started, I like to point you to my GitHub repo, you can go to andyc.info/dc20, (upbeat music) >> Hi, my name is Andy Clemenko. I'm a Senior Solutions Engineer at StackRox. Thanks for joining us today for my talk on labels, labels, labels. Obviously, you can reach me at all the socials. Before we get started, I like to point you to my GitHub repo, you can go to andyc.info/dc20, and it'll take you to my GitHub page where I've got all of this documentation, I've got the Keynote file there. YAMLs, I've got Dockerfiles, Compose files, all that good stuff. If you want to follow along, great, if not go back and review later, kind of fun. So let me tell you a little bit about myself. I am a former DOD contractor. This is my seventh DockerCon. I've spoken, I had the pleasure to speak at a few of them, one even in Europe. I was even a Docker employee for quite a number of years, providing solutions to the federal government and customers around containers and all things Docker. So I've been doing this a little while. One of the things that I always found interesting was the lack of understanding around labels. So why labels, right? Well, as a former DOD contractor, I had built out a large registry. And the question I constantly got was, where did this image come from? How did you get it? What's in it? Where did it come from? How did it get here? And one of the things we did to kind of alleviate some of those questions was we established a baseline set of labels. Labels really are designed to provide as much metadata around the image as possible. I ask everyone in attendance, when was the last time you pulled an image and had 100% confidence, you knew what was inside it, where it was built, how it was built, when it was built, you probably didn't, right? The last thing we obviously want is a container fire, like our image on the screen. And one kind of interesting way we can kind of prevent that is through the use of labels. We can use labels to address security, address some of the simplicity on how to run these images. So think of it, kind of like self documenting, Think of it also as an audit trail, image provenance, things like that. These are some interesting concepts that we can definitely mandate as we move forward. What is a label, right? Specifically what is the Schema? It's just a key-value. All right? It's any key and pretty much any value. What if we could dump in all kinds of information? What if we could encode things and store it in there? And I've got a fun little demo to show you about that. Let's start off with some of the simple keys, right? Author, date, description, version. Some of the basic information around the image. That would be pretty useful, right? What about specific labels for CI? What about a, where's the version control? Where's the source, right? Whether it's Git, whether it's GitLab, whether it's GitHub, whether it's Gitosis, right? Even SPN, who cares? Where are the source files that built, where's the Docker file that built this image? What's the commit number? That might be interesting in terms of tracking the resulting image to a person or to a commit, hopefully then to a person. How is it built? What if you wanted to play with it and do a git clone of the repo and then build the Docker file on your own? Having a label specifically dedicated on how to build this image might be interesting for development work. Where it was built, and obviously what build number, right? These kind of all, not only talk about continuous integration, CI but also start to talk about security. Specifically what server built it. The version control number, the version number, the commit number, again, how it was built. What's the specific build number? What was that job number in, say, Jenkins or GitLab? What if we could take it a step further? What if we could actually apply policy enforcement in the build pipeline, looking specifically for some of these specific labels? I've got a good example of, in my demo of a policy enforcement. So let's look at some sample labels. Now originally, this idea came out of label-schema.org. And then it was a modified to opencontainers, org.opencontainers.image. There is a link in my GitHub page that links to the full reference. But these are some of the labels that I like to use, just as kind of like a standardization. So obviously, Author's, an email address, so now the image is attributable to a person, that's always kind of good for security and reliability. Where's the source? Where's the version control that has the source, the Docker file and all the assets? How it was built, build number, build server the commit, we talked about, when it was created, a simple description. A fun one I like adding in is the healthZendpoint. Now obviously, the health check directive should be in the Docker file. But if you've got other systems that want to ping your applications, why not declare it and make it queryable? Image version, obviously, that's simple declarative And then a title. And then I've got the two fun ones. Remember, I talked about what if we could encode some fun things? Hypothetically, what if we could encode the Compose file of how to build the stack in the first image itself? And conversely the Kubernetes? Well, actually, you can and I have a demo to show you how to kind of take advantage of that. So how do we create labels? And really creating labels as a function of build time okay? You can't really add labels to an image after the fact. The way you do add labels is either through the Docker file, which I'm a big fan of, because it's declarative. It's in version control. It's kind of irrefutable, especially if you're tracking that commit number in a label. You can extend it from being a static kind of declaration to more a dynamic with build arguments. And I can show you, I'll show you in a little while how you can use a build argument at build time to pass in that variable. And then obviously, if you did it by hand, you could do a docker build--label key equals value. I'm not a big fan of the third one, I love the first one and obviously the second one. Being dynamic we can take advantage of some of the variables coming out of version control. Or I should say, some of the variables coming out of our CI system. And that way, it self documents effectively at build time, which is kind of cool. How do we view labels? Well, there's two major ways to view labels. The first one is obviously a docker pull and docker inspect. You can pull the image locally, you can inspect it, you can obviously, it's going to output as JSON. So you going to use something like JQ to crack it open and look at the individual labels. Another one which I found recently was Skopeo from Red Hat. This allows you to actually query the registry server. So you don't even have to pull the image initially. This can be really useful if you're on a really small development workstation, and you're trying to talk to a Kubernetes cluster and wanting to deploy apps kind of in a very simple manner. Okay? And this was that use case, right? Using Kubernetes, the Kubernetes demo. One of the interesting things about this is that you can base64 encode almost anything, push it in as text into a label and then base64 decode it, and then use it. So in this case, in my demo, I'll show you how we can actually use a kubectl apply piped from the base64 decode from the label itself from skopeo talking to the registry. And what's interesting about this kind of technique is you don't need to store Helm charts. You don't need to learn another language for your declarative automation, right? You don't need all this extra levels of abstraction inherently, if you use it as a label with a kubectl apply, It's just built in. It's kind of like the kiss approach to a certain extent. It does require some encoding when you actually build the image, but to me, it doesn't seem that hard. Okay, let's take a look at a demo. And what I'm going to do for my demo, before we actually get started is here's my repo. Here's a, let me actually go to the actual full repo. So here's the repo, right? And I've got my Jenkins pipeline 'cause I'm using Jenkins for this demo. And in my demo flask, I've got the Docker file. I've got my compose and my Kubernetes YAML. So let's take a look at the Docker file, right? So it's a simple Alpine image. The org statements are the build time arguments that are passed in. Label, so again, I'm using the org.opencontainers.image.blank, for most of them. There's a typo there. Let's see if you can find it, I'll show you it later. My source, build date, build number, commit. Build number and get commit are derived from the Jenkins itself, which is nice. I can just take advantage of existing URLs. I don't have to create anything crazy. And again, I've got my actual Docker build command. Now this is just a label on how to build it. And then here's my simple Python, APK upgrade, remove the package manager, kind of some security stuff, health check getting Python through, okay? Let's take a look at the Jenkins pipeline real quick. So here is my Jenkins pipeline and I have four major stages, four stages, I have built. And here in build, what I do is I actually do the Git clone. And then I do my docker build. From there, I actually tell the Jenkins StackRox plugin. So that's what I'm using for my security scanning. So go ahead and scan, basically, I'm staging it to scan the image. I'm pushing it to Hub, okay? Where I can see the, basically I'm pushing the image up to Hub so such that my StackRox security scanner can go ahead and scan the image. I'm kicking off the scan itself. And then if everything's successful, I'm pushing it to prod. Now what I'm doing is I'm just using the same image with two tags, pre-prod and prod. This is not exactly ideal, in your environment, you probably want to use separate registries and non-prod and a production registry, but for demonstration purposes, I think this is okay. So let's go over to my Jenkins and I've got a deliberate failure. And I'll show you why there's a reason for that. And let's go down. Let's look at my, so I have a StackRox report. Let's look at my report. And it says image required, required image label alert, right? Request that the maintainer, add the required label to the image, so we're missing a label, okay? One of the things we can do is let's flip over, and let's look at Skopeo. Right? I'm going to do this just the easy way. So instead of looking at org.zdocker, opencontainers.image.authors. Okay, see here it says build signature? That was the typo, we didn't actually pass in. So if we go back to our repo, we didn't pass in the the build time argument, we just passed in the word. So let's fix that real quick. That's the Docker file. Let's go ahead and put our dollar sign in their. First day with the fingers you going to love it. And let's go ahead and commit that. Okay? So now that that's committed, we can go back to Jenkins, and we can actually do another build. And there's number 12. And as you can see, I've been playing with this for a little bit today. And while that's running, come on, we can go ahead and look at the Console output. Okay, so there's our image. And again, look at all the build arguments that we're passing into the build statement. So we're passing in the date and the date gets derived on the command line. With the build arguments, there's the base64 encoded of the Compose file. Here's the base64 encoding of the Kubernetes YAML. We do the build. And then let's go down to the bottom layer exists and successful. So here's where we can see no system policy violations profound marking stack regimes security plugin, build step as successful, okay? So we're actually able to do policy enforcement that that image exists, that that label sorry, exists in the image. And again, we can look at the security report and there's no policy violations and no vulnerabilities. So that's pretty good for security, right? We can now enforce and mandate use of certain labels within our images. And let's flip back over to Skopeo, and let's go ahead and look at it. So we're looking at the prod version again. And there's it is in my email address. And that validated that that was valid for that policy. So that's kind of cool. Now, let's take it a step further. What if, let's go ahead and take a look at all of the image, all the labels for a second, let me remove the dash org, make it pretty. Okay? So we have all of our image labels. Again, author's build, commit number, look at the commit number. It was built today build number 12. We saw that right? Delete, build 12. So that's kind of cool dynamic labels. Name, healthz, right? But what we're looking for is we're going to look at the org.zdockerketers label. So let's go look at the label real quick. Okay, well that doesn't really help us because it's encoded but let's base64 dash D, let's decode it. And I need to put the dash r in there 'cause it doesn't like, there we go. So there's my Kubernetes YAML. So why can't we simply kubectl apply dash f? Let's just apply it from standard end. So now we've actually used that label. From the image that we've queried with skopeo, from a remote registry to deploy locally to our Kubernetes cluster. So let's go ahead and look everything's up and running, perfect. So what does that look like, right? So luckily, I'm using traefik for Ingress 'cause I love it. And I've got an object in my Kubernetes YAML called flask.doctor.life. That's my Ingress object for traefik. I can go to flask.docker.life. And I can hit refresh. Obviously, I'm not a very good web designer 'cause the background image in the text. We can go ahead and refresh it a couple times we've got Redis storing a hit counter. We can see that our server name is roundrobing. Okay? That's kind of cool. So let's kind of recap a little bit about my demo environment. So my demo environment, I'm using DigitalOcean, Ubuntu 19.10 Vms. I'm using K3s instead of full Kubernetes either full Rancher, full Open Shift or Docker Enterprise. I think K3s has some really interesting advantages on the development side and it's kind of intended for IoT but it works really well and it deploys super easy. I'm using traefik for Ingress. I love traefik. I may or may not be a traefik ambassador. I'm using Jenkins for CI. And I'm using StackRox for image scanning and policy enforcement. One of the things to think about though, especially in terms of labels is none of this demo stack is required. You can be in any cloud, you can be in CentOs, you can be in any Kubernetes. You can even be in swarm, if you wanted to, or Docker compose. Any Ingress, any CI system, Jenkins, circle, GitLab, it doesn't matter. And pretty much any scanning. One of the things that I think is kind of nice about at least StackRox is that we do a lot more than just image scanning, right? With the policy enforcement things like that. I guess that's kind of a shameless plug. But again, any of this stack is completely replaceable, with any comparative product in that category. So I'd like to, again, point you guys to the andyc.infodc20, that's take you right to the GitHub repo. You can reach out to me at any of the socials @clemenko or andy@stackrox.com. And thank you for attending. I hope you learned something fun about labels. And hopefully you guys can standardize labels in your organization and really kind of take your images and the image provenance to a new level. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas It's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2019. This is theCUBE's 7th year covering Amazon re:Invent. It's their 8th year of the conference. I want to just shout out to Intel for their sponsorship for these two amazing sets. Without their support we wouldn't be able to bring our mission of great content to you. I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman. We're here with the chief of AWS, the chief executive officer Andy Jassy. Tech athlete in and of himself three hour Keynotes. Welcome to theCUBE again, great to see you. >> Great to be here, thanks for having me guys. >> Congratulations on a great show a lot of great buzz. >> Andy: Thank you. >> A lot of good stuff. Your Keynote was phenomenal. You get right into it, you giddy up right into it as you say, three hours, thirty announcements. You guys do a lot, but what I liked, the new addition, the last year and this year is the band; house band. They're pretty good. >> Andy: They're good right? >> They hit the queen notes, so that keeps it balanced. So we're going to work on getting a band for theCUBE. >> Awesome. >> So if I have to ask you, what's your walk up song, what would it be? >> There's so many choices, it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. But, uh, maybe Times Like These by the Foo Fighters. >> John: Alright. >> These are unusual times right now. >> Foo Fighters playing at the Amazon Intersect Show. >> Yes they are. >> Good plug Andy. >> Headlining. >> Very clever >> Always getting a good plug in there. >> My very favorite band. Well congratulations on the Intersect you got a lot going on. Intersect is a music festival, I'll get to that in a second But, I think the big news for me is two things, obviously we had a one-on-one exclusive interview and you laid out, essentially what looks like was going to be your Keynote, and it was. Transformation- >> Andy: Thank you for the practice. (Laughter) >> John: I'm glad to practice, use me anytime. >> Yeah. >> And I like to appreciate the comments on Jedi on the record, that was great. But I think the transformation story's a very real one, but the NFL news you guys just announced, to me, was so much fun and relevant. You had the Commissioner of NFL on stage with you talking about a strategic partnership. That is as top down, aggressive goal as you could get to have Rodger Goodell fly to a tech conference to sit with you and then bring his team talk about the deal. >> Well, ya know, we've been partners with the NFL for a while with the Next Gen Stats that they use on all their telecasts and one of the things I really like about Roger is that he's very curious and very interested in technology and the first couple times I spoke with him he asked me so many questions about ways the NFL might be able to use the Cloud and digital transformation to transform their various experiences and he's always said if you have a creative idea or something you think that could change the world for us, just call me he said or text me or email me and I'll call you back within 24 hours. And so, we've spent the better part of the last year talking about a lot of really interesting, strategic ways that they can evolve their experience both for fans, as well as their players and the Player Health and Safety Initiative, it's so important in sports and particularly important with the NFL given the nature of the sport and they've always had a focus on it, but what you can do with computer vision and machine learning algorithms and then building a digital athlete which is really like a digital twin of each athlete so you understand, what does it look like when they're healthy and compare that when it looks like they may not be healthy and be able to simulate all kinds of different combinations of player hits and angles and different plays so that you could try to predict injuries and predict the right equipment you need before there's a problem can be really transformational so we're super excited about it. >> Did you guys come up with the idea or was it a collaboration between them? >> It was really a collaboration. I mean they, look, they are very focused on players safety and health and it's a big deal for their- you know, they have two main constituents the players and fans and they care deeply about the players and it's a-it's a hard problem in a sport like Football, I mean, you watch it. >> Yeah, and I got to say it does point out the use cases of what you guys are promoting heavily at the show here of the SageMaker Studio, which was a big part of your Keynote, where they have all this data. >> Andy: Right. >> And they're data hoarders, they hoard data but the manual process of going through the data was a killer problem. This is consistent with a lot of the enterprises that are out there, they have more data than they even know. So this seems to be a big part of the strategy. How do you get the customers to actually wake up to the fact that they got all this data and how do you tie that together? >> I think in almost every company they know they have a lot of data. And there are always pockets of people who want to do something with it. But, when you're going to make these really big leaps forward; these transformations, the things like Volkswagen is doing where they're reinventing their factories and their manufacturing process or the NFL where they're going to radically transform how they do players uh, health and safety. It starts top down and if the senior leader isn't convicted about wanting to take that leap forward and trying something different and organizing the data differently and organizing the team differently and using machine learning and getting help from us and building algorithms and building some muscle inside the company it just doesn't happen because it's not in the normal machinery of what most companies do. And so it always, almost always, starts top down. Sometimes it can be the Commissioner or CEO sometimes it can be the CIO but it has to be senior level conviction or it doesn't get off the ground. >> And the business model impact has to be real. For NFL, they know concussions, hurting their youth pipe-lining, this is a huge issue for them. This is their business model. >> They lose even more players to lower extremity injuries. And so just the notion of trying to be able to predict injuries and, you know, the impact it can have on rules and the impact it can have on the equipment they use, it's a huge game changer when they look at the next 10 to 20 years. >> Alright, love geeking out on the NFL but Andy, you know- >> No more NFL talk? >> Off camera how about we talk? >> Nobody talks about the Giants being 2 and 10. >> Stu: We're both Patriots fans here. >> People bring up the undefeated season. >> So Andy- >> Everybody's a Patriot's fan now. (Laughter) >> It's fascinating to watch uh, you and your three hour uh, Keynote, uh Werner in his you know, architectural discussion, really showed how AWS is really extending its reach, you know, it's not just a place. For a few years people have been talking about you know, Cloud is an operational model its not a destination or a location but, I felt it really was laid out is you talked about Breadth and Depth and Werner really talked about you know, Architectural differentiation. People talk about Cloud, but there are very-there are a lot of differences between the vision for where things are going. Help us understand why, I mean, Amazon's vision is still a bit different from what other people talk about where this whole Cloud expansion, journey, put ever what tag or label you want on it but you know, the control plane and the technology that you're building and where you see that going. >> Well I think that, we've talked about this a couple times we have two macro types of customers. We have those that really want to get at the low level building blocks and stitch them together creatively however they see fit to create whatever's in their-in their heads. And then we have the second segment of customers that say look, I'm willing to give up some of that flexibility in exchange for getting 80% of the way there much faster. In an abstraction that's different from those low level building blocks. And both segments of builders we want to serve and serve well and so we've built very significant offerings in both areas. I think when you look at microservices um, you know, some of it has to do with the fact that we have this very strongly held belief born out of several years of Amazon where you know, the first 7 or 8 years of Amazon's consumer business we basically jumbled together all of the parts of our technology in moving really quickly and when we wanted to move quickly where you had to impact multiple internal development teams it was so long because it was this big ball, this big monolithic piece. And we got religion about that in trying to move faster in the consumer business and having to tease those pieces apart. And it really was a lot of impetus behind conceiving AWS where it was these low level, very flexible building blocks that6 don't try and make all the decisions for customers they get to make them themselves. And some of the microservices that you saw Werner talking about just, you know, for instance, what we-what we did with Nitro or even what we did with Firecracker those are very much about us relentlessly working to continue to uh, tease apart the different components. And even things that look like low level building blocks over time, you build more and more features and all of the sudden you realize they have a lot of things that are combined together that you wished weren't that slow you down and so, Nitro was a completely re imagining of our Hypervisor and Virtualization layer to allow us, both to let customers have better performance but also to let us move faster and have a better security story for our customers. >> I got to ask you the question around transformation because I think that all points, all the data points, you got all the references, Goldman Sachs on stage at the Keynote, Cerner, I mean healthcare just is an amazing example because I mean, that's demonstrating real value there there's no excuse. I talked to someone who wouldn't be named last night, in and around the area said, the CIA has a cost bar like this a cost-a budget like this but the demand for mission based apps is going up exponentially, so there's need for the Cloud. And so, you see more and more of that. What is your top down, aggressive goals to fill that solution base because you're also a very transformational thinker; what is your-what is your aggressive top down goals for your organization because you're serving a market with trillions of dollars of spend that's shifting, that's on the table. >> Yeah. >> A lot of competition now sees it too, they're going to go after it. But at the end of the day you have customers that have a demand for things, apps. >> Andy: Yeah. >> And not a lot of budget increase at the same time. This is a huge dynamic. >> Yeah. >> John: What's your goals? >> You know I think that at a high level our top down aggressive goals are that we want every single customer who uses our platform to have an outstanding customer experience. And we want that outstanding customer experience in part is that their operational performance and their security are outstanding, but also that it allows them to build, uh, build projects and initiatives that change their customer experience and allow them to be a sustainable successful business over a long period of time. And then, we also really want to be the technology infrastructure platform under all the applications that people build. And we're realistic, we know that you know, the market segments we address with infrastructure, software, hardware, and data center services globally are trillions of dollars in the long term and it won't only be us, but we have that goal of wanting to serve every application and that requires not just the security operational premise but also a lot of functionality and a lot of capability. We have by far the most amount of capability out there and yet I would tell you, we have 3 to 5 years of items on our roadmap that customers want us to add. And that's just what we know today. >> And Andy, underneath the covers you've been going through some transformation. When we talked a couple of years ago, about how serverless is impacting things I've heard that that's actually, in many ways, glue behind the two pizza teams to work between organizations. Talk about how the internal transformations are happening. How that impacts your discussions with customers that are going through that transformation. >> Well, I mean, there's a lot of- a lot of the technology we build comes from things that we're doing ourselves you know? And that we're learning ourselves. It's kind of how we started thinking about microservices, serverless too, we saw the need, you know, we would have we would build all these functions that when some kind of object came into an object store we would spin up, compute, all those tasks would take like, 3 or 4 hundred milliseconds then we'd spin it back down and yet, we'd have to keep a cluster up in multiple availability zones because we needed that fault tolerance and it was- we just said this is wasteful and, that's part of how we came up with Lambda and you know, when we were thinking about Lambda people understandably said, well if we build Lambda and we build this serverless adventure in computing a lot of people were keeping clusters of instances aren't going to use them anymore it's going to lead to less absolute revenue for us. But we, we have learned this lesson over the last 20 years at Amazon which is, if it's something that's good for customers you're much better off cannibalizing yourself and doing the right thing for customers and being part of shaping something. And I think if you look at the history of technology you always build things and people say well, that's going to cannibalize this and people are going to spend less money, what really ends up happening is they spend less money per unit of compute but it allows them to do so much more that they ultimately, long term, end up being more significant customers. >> I mean, you are like beating the drum all the time. Customers, what they say, we encompass the roadmap, I got that you guys have that playbook down, that's been really successful for you. >> Andy: Yeah. >> Two years ago you told me machine learning was really important to you because your customers told you. What's the next traunch of importance for customers? What's on top of mind now, as you, look at- >> Andy: Yeah. >> This re:Invent kind of coming to a close, Replay's tonight, you had conversations, you're a tech athlete, you're running around, doing speeches, talking to customers. What's that next hill from if it's machine learning today- >> There's so much I mean, (weird background noise) >> It's not a soup question (Laughter) And I think we're still in the very early days of machine learning it's not like most companies have mastered it yet even though they're using it much more then they did in the past. But, you know, I think machine learning for sure I think the Edge for sure, I think that um, we're optimistic about Quantum Computing even though I think it'll be a few years before it's really broadly useful. We're very um, enthusiastic about robotics. I think the amount of functions that are going to be done by these- >> Yeah. >> robotic applications are much more expansive than people realize. It doesn't mean humans won't have jobs, they're just going to work on things that are more value added. We're believers in augmented virtual reality, we're big believers in what's going to happen with Voice. And I'm also uh, I think sometimes people get bored you know, I think you're even bored with machine learning already >> Not yet. >> People get bored with the things you've heard about but, I think just what we've done with the Chips you know, in terms of giving people 40% better price performance in the latest generation of X86 processors. It's pretty unbelievable in the difference in what people are going to be able to do. Or just look at big data I mean, big data, we haven't gotten through big data where people have totally solved it. The amount of data that companies want to store, process, analyze, is exponentially larger than it was a few years ago and it will, I think, exponentially increase again in the next few years. You need different tools and services. >> Well I think we're not bored with machine learning we're excited to get started because we have all this data from the video and you guys got SageMaker. >> Andy: Yeah. >> We call it the stairway to machine learning heaven. >> Andy: Yeah. >> You start with the data, move up, knock- >> You guys are very sophisticated with what you do with technology and machine learning and there's so much I mean, we're just kind of, again, in such early innings. And I think that, it was so- before SageMaker, it was so hard for everyday developers and data scientists to build models but the combination of SageMaker and what's happened with thousands of companies standardizing on it the last two years, plus now SageMaker studio, giant leap forward. >> Well, we hope to use the data to transform our experience with our audience. And we're on Amazon Cloud so we really appreciate that. >> Andy: Yeah. >> And appreciate your support- >> Andy: Yeah, of course. >> John: With Amazon and get that machine learning going a little faster for us, that would be better. >> If you have requests I'm interested, yeah. >> So Andy, you talked about that you've got the customers that are builders and the customers that need simplification. Traditionally when you get into the, you know, the heart of the majority of adoption of something you really need to simplify that environment. But when I think about the successful enterprise of the future, they need to be builders. how'l I normally would've said enterprise want to pay for solutions because they don't have the skill set but, if they're going to succeed in this new economy they need to go through that transformation >> Andy: Yeah. >> That you talk to, so, I mean, are we in just a total new era when we look back will this be different than some of these previous waves? >> It's a really good question Stu, and I don't think there's a simple answer to it. I think that a lot of enterprises in some ways, I think wish that they could just skip the low level building blocks and only operate at that higher level abstraction. That's why people were so excited by things like, SageMaker, or CodeGuru, or Kendra, or Contact Lens, these are all services that allow them to just send us data and then run it on our models and get back the answers. But I think one of the big trends that we see with enterprises is that they are taking more and more of their development in house and they are wanting to operate more and more like startups. I think that they admire what companies like AirBnB and Pintrest and Slack and Robinhood and a whole bunch of those companies, Stripe, have done and so when, you know, I think you go through these phases and eras where there are waves of success at different companies and then others want to follow that success and replicate it. And so, we see more and more enterprises saying we need to take back a lot of that development in house. And as they do that, and as they add more developers those developers in most cases like to deal with the building blocks. And they have a lot of ideas on how they can creatively stich them together. >> Yeah, on that point, I want to just quickly ask you on Amazon versus other Clouds because you made a comment to me in our interview about how hard it is to provide a service to other people. And it's hard to have a service that you're using yourself and turn that around and the most quoted line of my story was, the compression algorithm- there's no compression algorithm for experience. Which to me, is the diseconomies of scale for taking shortcuts. >> Andy: Yeah. And so I think this is a really interesting point, just add some color commentary because I think this is a fundamental difference between AWS and others because you guys have a trajectory over the years of serving, at scale, customers wherever they are, whatever they want to do, now you got microservices. >> Yeah. >> John: It's even more complex. That's hard. >> Yeah. >> John: Talk about that. >> I think there are a few elements to that notion of there's no compression algorithm for experience and I think the first thing to know about AWS which is different is, we just come from a different heritage and a different background. We ran a business for a long time that was our sole business that was a consumer retail business that was very low margin. And so, we had to operate at very large scale given how many people were using us but also, we had to run infrastructure services deep in the stack, compute storage and database, and reliable scalable data centers at very low cost and margins. And so, when you look at our business it actually, today, I mean its, its a higher margin business in our retail business, its a lower margin business in software companies but at real scale, it's a high volume, relatively low margin business. And the way that you have to operate to be successful with those businesses and the things you have to think about and that DNA come from the type of operators we have to be in our consumer retail business. And there's nobody else in our space that does that. So, you know, the way that we think about costs, the way we think about innovation in the data center, um, and I also think the way that we operate services and how long we've been operating services as a company its a very different mindset than operating package software. Then you look at when uh, you think about some of the uh, issues in very large scale Cloud, you can't learn some of those lessons until you get to different elbows of the curve and scale. And so what I was telling you is, its really different to run your own platform for your own users where you get to tell them exactly how its going to be done. But that's not the way the real world works. I mean, we have millions of external customers who use us from every imaginable country and location whenever they want, without any warning, for lots of different use cases, and they have lots of design patterns and we don't get to tell them what to do. And so operating a Cloud like that, at a scale that's several times larger than the next few providers combined is a very different endeavor and a very different operating rigor. >> Well you got to keep raising the bar you guys do a great job, really impressed again. Another tsunami of announcements. In fact, you had to spill the beans earlier with Quantum the day before the event. Tight schedule. I got to ask you about the musical festival because, I think this is a very cool innovation. It's the inaugural Intersect conference. >> Yes. >> John: Which is not part of Replay, >> Yes. >> John: Which is the concert tonight. Its a whole new thing, big music act, you're a big music buff, your daughter's an artist. Why did you do this? What's the purpose? What's your goal? >> Yeah, it's an experiment. I think that what's happened is that re:Invent has gotten so big, we have 65 thousand people here, that to do the party, which we do every year, its like a 35-40 thousand person concert now. Which means you have to have a location that has multiple stages and, you know, we thought about it last year and when we were watching it and we said, we're kind of throwing, like, a 4 hour music festival right now. There's multiple stages, and its quite expensive to set up that set for a party and we said well, maybe we don't have to spend all that money for 4 hours and then rip it apart because actually the rent to keep those locations for another two days is much smaller than the cost of actually building multiple stages and so we thought we would try it this year. We're very passionate about music as a business and I think we-I think our customers feel like we've thrown a pretty good music party the last few years and we thought we would try it at a larger scale as an experiment. And if you look at the economics- >> At the headliners real quick. >> The Foo Fighters are headlining on Saturday night, Anderson Paak and the Free Nationals, Brandi Carlile, Shawn Mullins, um, Willy Porter, its a good set. Friday night its Beck and Kacey Musgraves so it's a really great set of um, about thirty artists and we're hopeful that if we can build a great experience that people will want to attend that we can do it at scale and it might be something that both pays for itself and maybe, helps pay for re:Invent too overtime and you know, I think that we're also thinking about it as not just a music concert and festival the reason we named it Intersect is that we want an intersection of music genres and people and ethnicities and age groups and art and technology all there together and this will be the first year we try it, its an experiment and we're really excited about it. >> Well I'm gone, congratulations on all your success and I want to thank you we've been 7 years here at re:Invent we've been documenting the history. You got two sets now, one set upstairs. So appreciate you. >> theCUBE is part of re:Invent, you know, you guys really are apart of the event and we really appreciate your coming here and I know people appreciate the content you create as well. >> And we just launched CUBE365 on Amazon Marketplace built on AWS so thanks for letting us- >> Very cool >> John: Build on the platform. appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me guys, I appreciate it. >> Andy Jassy the CEO of AWS here inside theCUBE, it's our 7th year covering and documenting the thunderous innovation that Amazon's doing they're really doing amazing work building out the new technologies here in the Cloud computing world. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, be right back with more after this short break. (Outro music)

>> From theCube studios in Paloalto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this special Cube conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio, and theCube is really mostly about people, about network, and so we're going to have a focus in, we're going to talk about some technology, we're also going to talk a little bit about careers. I want to welcome to the program, I've got two first-time guests on the program. First, Mark Zbikowski. Probably butchered that badly, Mark, sorry, technical advisor, and Blue Gaston. Uh, Gaston. Boy, I'm doing horrible with names here. Software engineer, you're both with Polyverse. But, you know, my last name's Miniman, it has been butchered a million times. But Mark, and Blue, thank you so much for joining us. >> You're welcome. Our pleasure. >> Yes. >> All right. So one of you I've read a lot about online and the other one is Mark, go to the Wikipedia page, stuff like that. So we'll get to that too. So, Blue, maybe start with you, give us a little bit about your background. >> Yeah, so I work at Polyverse now, a cybersecurity startup. But actually I got my undergraduate degree in Philosophy, and from there, kind of just like, what am I going to do with a philosophy degree? And it just weirdly was like a natural transition. I was like, oh, computer science. And kind of the logical, like the technical version of philosophy. So got my master's in philosophy and now, or not philosophy, in computer science, and now have been working at Polyverse. I started as an intern and they hired me on, I think after a month, they were like, no, we want you full-time. So that was cool and I've loved it. So I'm starting off my story, that's kind of where my kick-off point is. >> Awesome. So, and Mark, first of all, you have to give us the connection between yourself and Blue, and a little bit surprising that she waited so long to go into the computer business. >> Uh, okay, I'm her stepfather. It's not surprising that she, you know, wanted to go into computer science. She's got lots of aptitude for it. She was just on a career path and an education path that was primarily logic, analysis, which is basically what we do in computer science. >> All right. So Mark, if you could just give our audience a little bit of a thumbnail sketch as to your background in the tech industry, and it's a storied one. >> Uh, okay. I was, I think, employee number 55 at Microsoft, when I started back in 1981. The first task that they gave me was to work on something that ended up becoming MS-DOS. I worked on MS-DOS for a long time, about five and a half years, worked on a number of other operating systems at Microsoft, ending up with being one of the initial development managers and architects for Windows. I was responsible for all file storage. And I was there for about 26 years. >> Yeah, you know, interesting, you know, when you look on the Wikipedia page, you were the third employee that reached the 25-year milestone. Some guy, Bill Gates, and Steve Balmer, were the first two to reach that milestone. So, you know, quite impressive. I think back, back when I learned computers, it was programming, and you know, today it's coding, and things are quite different there. But, Mark, you were also, you're noted as one of the early hackers there, so what does that mean to you, how have you seen that's been changing? Polyverse is in the cybersecurity realm, so would love your kind of viewpoint on just hacking in general. >> Oh, the early days, well my hacking started pretty much when I was in eighth or ninth grade back in Detroit. We had access to an academic operating system called MTS by way of Wayne State University. I grew up in, just in the suburbs of Detroit. And we had access to it, and for me Excuse me. Hacking at the time was all about trying to understand and learn stuff that was arcane and hidden and mysterious. Figuring out how, for example, password encryption algorithms worked, figuring out how operating systems worked, because at the time, there were very few organized textbooks about how to construct operating systems. Even though operating systems had been around for 20 years. So my early, earliest stuff was in basically, finding holes in security at MTS, and that's how I started, in what they would say "hacking", but it was very innocent, it was very, let's see what we can do! As opposed to, let's extract information, let's go and ransom people's data for bitcoin, which is, you know, I think, a wrong direction to go. >> Yeah. I'm curious your thoughts as the decades have progressed, you know, hacking today, what's your take on, you know, there's the white hats and the black hats, and everything in between. >> Uh, it's kind of an arms race. (laughs) Everything that the white hats will throw up, the black hats will eventually attack to some degree. Social engineering is sort of the ultimate way that people have been getting around, you know, software protections. I think it's unfortunate that there is such a financial reward to the black hat side of things, as counter to one's ethics. I think there's a lot of slippery slopes involved, in terms of, you know, boy, these companies shouldn't be making money, so I deserve my bit. I think that it's much better that, you know, people should come at this from an intellectual, you know, exploration standpoint, rather than an exploitative. But that's the nature of the world. >> Yeah, well, Blue, maybe we can help connect the dots towards what you both do at Polyverse. You mentioned you started as an intern, and I loved the article that talked about this. Well, you know, you're going to be an intern. Can you fix the internet for us? And you did some things to help, you know, help stop some of that malicious hacking. >> Yeah, I, that was crazy. I was very intimidated when I heard that, you're going to be fixing the internet. What I've been working at the company, which is different from our flagship product, but kind of in the same vein, is to stop malicious php javascript code execution. So that's what they came in, that's how they prefaced that problem to me. It was, you're going to go fix the internet. Um, and it was crazy. It was really cool and surprisingly, a lot of philosophy that goes into the way we look at our problem-solving at Polyverse, and how we tackle problems, but of course, I have my Jedi master Mark over here, and I was constantly, "What do you think about this? Isn't this crazy? "Like, look at how Polyverse is attacking this." And I think finally I broke him down, and I was like, come join. Come jump in, and you be the foresight, and you tell us what we're going to do in a year or two. And I convinced him, and now, he's, he's with us too. >> Excellent. So, Mark, tell us a little bit about, you know, more about Polyverse, your role there. In the industry there's a lot of talk about, you know, lots of money obviously gets spent on cybersecurity, but it's still a major challenge in the industry. So what's your role there and how's Polyverse helping to attack that? >> Well, my title is Technology Advisor, and I'm one of a small collection of people who have pretty wide-ranging expertise across operating systems, networks, compilers, languages, development tools, all of that. And our goal is, you know, my role, as well the other Jedi masters, is to take a look at what Polyverse is doing at present, try to figure out where we need to go, try to figure out what the next set of challenges are, use our broad experience and knowledge of the computing milieu, and try to figure out what are the tough issues we need to face? We make some progress on those tough issues, and then turn everything over for the mainline Polyverse development staff to bring it to reality. We're not like researchers, we're much more into the product planning side of things, but product planning in, I hate to use this word, but in a visionary sense. (Blue laughs) >> Yeah, no, it's-- >> We look for the vision. We're not visionaries. We look for the vision. >> You're a visionary, Mark. Admit it. >> Excellent. Well, I do love the, you know, Jedi analogy there. When you look at, I'm curious to your thoughts, both of you, you know, some of the real challenges and opportunities facing the cybersecurity industry. It's a large financial industry company, they'll spend a billion dollars and, you know, does that make them secure? Well, at least they've done what they can and they're pushing enough pieces. But, you know, fundamentally, we understand that this is such a huge issue. >> I think-- >> Blue? >> Well, (laughs) I can try to answer. I think Polyverse recognizes that as well. So we're trying to create new solutions, that instead of just being compliant and checking the boxes, we're actually trying to create systems and products that will stop attacks from actually working. Rather than being reactive and being responsive, we're trying to build these systems out where the attacks just don't work as they're currently designed. And I think we, you know, and to do so in an easy-to-deploy, time-saving kind of way is definitely our goal. Rather than the status quo and, you know, we're fighting inertia, we're trying to, to change that narrative in a really meaningful way. >> Thanks, Blue. Mark, do you have some comments you can add to that? >> Once we started taking individual computers and hooking them up to the internet, where they can communicate fairly freely with each other, and by intent communicate fairly freely with each other, by design, by intent, all of a sudden that opened us to just a wide range of malicious behavior, from being DoS'd, to leaking passwords, et cetera. There are, there's layers and layers that one can do to mitigate these problems. From IT operational manuals to buzz-testing your API, to best practices, it's a, there's a long list. And every bit, every piece of it is important. You need to secure your passwords before you can do anything else. You need to make sure that there's a firewall in your system be fore you go and start, before you even start thinking about doing things like, like what's goin on with what we're doing at Polyverse. It's a, like I said, there's a wide range of tools that people need, that people use, that people spend money on today. Polyverse has got a very unique perspective on how to go and extend this. We, it's a, it's very pragmatic, you know, the realization is that these attackers are going to keep attacking, and they're going to exploit certain features that, despite everyone's best intentions, aren't covered, and we have found a rather unique and novel way to prevent people from doing it. Is it going to solve everything? No. There's still, there's all these other early layers that need to be taken care of first, before the more sophisticated tools that, for example, that Polyverse has or that other companies have. >> Great. Well, Blue, you talked a little bit about it, but, you know, love your, what you've found, you know, working together as a family dynamic here. You know, specifically. >> Um, (laughs) I think it's really cool. What's the best, I'll say this, is when, I always like asking Mark his opinion, because why wouldn't I? The brain that guy has, and just the experience, he can add so much. Every once in a while, I'll go, and I'll say, you know, oh, this is what I'm working on, and here's what I'm kind of thinking, and he'll say, oh, yeah, well what about this? And I'll actually get to explain something to him. And I got to tell you, that feels really good. Is when I get to say, oh, well, actually it looks like this, and this was my plan, and he's like, oh yeah, definitely. And I get that validation, which is really cool. And I can, you know, drive to his house and bug him whenever I want to. I know where he lives, so if I'm really stuck, or just want to bounce ideas off of him, it's really cool. It's really cool, and I, you know, strong-armed, not strong-armed, I enticed him to come and join Polyverse just by the cool things that we're doing, and I think that's cool too. To now be able to work on something together. >> Yeah, and Mark, sounds like you're learning some things from Blue. Give us your side of that relationship. >> Well, it's a great relationship. Blue, um, Blue never hesitates to challenge. (Blue laughs) >> Blue: Okay. And that, I'm saying that in a very positive sense. Um, you know, she'll come up, every so often I'll get a text from her that says, "Help!" >> Oh my god! (laughing) >> Yes. Sorry. At least I'm not showing it. (laughs) But it's great. And we get together and we talk about stuff, and she says, you know, here's the problem I'm facing, and I'll ask her about it and she gets to go and teach me about what her problem is. I'm a big fan of teaching. I think one of the frustrations that Blue has is I almost never give her the answer when she asks a question. (laughs) >> Not even when I was in school, >> Yeah, not even when you were in school. I was always asking the questions and leading her to the answer rather than just giving it to her. >> Or saying, well why don't we sit down and I'll teach you how to implement knowledge. Just like, oh my god. What are you doing? >> Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a big fan of teaching and learning by way of teaching. One of the things I do is I'm an affiliate with the University of Washington, and I teach every year one quarter of their Operating Systems class. And I love teaching, I love seeing the light go on. But every year, when I'm teaching a class that I know pretty well, I learn something new. By a question the student asks, or by reading a paper that I'm asking the students to read, I learn something new just about every year. And so having Blue teach me is a way that I get to learn, but I think in the process Blue also gets to learn as well. You know, in the process of teaching me. >> Yeah, well, that's such a great point. All right, want to give you both the final word on what's exciting you, what draws you to working in the cybersecurity industry. >> Um, I'll start. (laughs) So when I started at Polyverse, I actually got to, as an intern, own my own product. And in, I think, less than a month now, we're actually officially releasing that product, polyscripting. Officially, like Marketing is coming up with materials for it, and that was right out of school is when I started on this project, so it's kind of like a big deal for me. You know, I've owned the project, I'd say like 90% of it, over the last year or two, and now I get to see it come into fruition. So that's really exciting to me. Um, you know, that's exciting. So I'm excited about that, I'm excited about what Polyverse is doing in general. So, yeah. >> And Mark? >> Yeah. It's great working in a startup, it's great working with a bunch of very, very bright, energetic people. For me, contributing to that environment is extremely valuable. Helping Polyverse out, they're, you know, cybersecurity is problem. Trying to come up with good, effective solutions that are really pragmatic in terms of, you know, we're not going to solve every problem, but here's a great little space that we're going to solve all the problems in. That's, there's a huge appeal to that for me. >> Well, Mark and Blue, thank you so much for joining. Appreciate you sharing some of the personal as well as the professional journeys that you've both been on. Thanks so much. >> Yeah, thank you >> Yeah, you're welcome. >> All right. Thank you for watching theCube. I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching. (soothing music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE virtual coverage of the AWS summit virtual online. This is an event that Amazon normally has in-person in San Francisco, but now it's virtual around the world, Seoul, Korea, in Tokyo, all over the world and Asia-Pacific and in North America. I'm John Furrier here joined with Stu Miniman. So Stu, we're kicking off AWS virtual with theCUBE virtual. I'm in Palo Alto with the quarantine crew. You're in Massachusetts, in Boston and the quarantine crew there. Stu, great to have you on to talk about AWS virtual summit. >> Yeah, John, it's great to see you. It's been, you know, interesting times doing all these remote interviews. As many of us say, I sure don't miss the planes and the hotels, but I do miss the communities. I do miss the hallway conversation, but great to see you John. Love the Midnight Madness shirt from re:Invent last year. >> Well, we want to thank Amazon for stepping up with some sponsorship for allow us to do the virtual CUBE alongside their virtual event, because now it's a global community. It's all virtual, there are no boundaries theCube has no boundary. Stu, we've got a great program. We have Corey Quinn coming up and expect to hear from him last week in AWS. He's known for, he's a rising star in the community, certainly CUBE guest and also guest host and analyst for theCUBE. We expect to hear all the latest from his big Zoom post controversy, to really what's going on in AWS, around what services are high. I know you're going to do a great interview with him, but let's start with Amazon. We're seeing a ton of activity. Obviously most recently, last week was the JEDI thing, which was an agency protest, kind of confidential. Microsoft blew that up big time with a post by their worldwide comms person Frank Shaw, countered by Drew Herdener, who's the comms global lead for AWS. And so a war of words is ensuing. This is again, pointing to the cloud native war that's going on with a JEDI conference. I mean, the JEDI contract for $10 billion, which is worth to Microsoft. This shows that the heat is on, Stu. This is a absolute bloodbath between AWS and Microsoft. We're seeing it play out now virtually with Amazon, A.I. large scale cloud. This is huge, this is another level. A DEFCON one basically, your thoughts? >> Yeah, John, you've covered this really well. It's been really interesting plot, number one, you talked about the security requirement, when AWS launched the GovCloud had the CIA as a client, early on many years ago. It was the green light for many companies that go from "Wait, is the cloud secure enough?" to "Well, if it's good enough for "the federal government in the U.S., "it's probably good enough for the enterprise." When Microsoft won JEDI, they didn't have all the certification, to meet what was in the contract. They had a ticking clock to make sure that they could meet those security engagements, as well as one of the pieces on the task board that moved was Oracle made a partnership announcement with Azure. We know the federal government uses Oracle quite a bit, so they can now run that in Azure and not have the penalties from Oracle. So that many have said, "Hey AWS, "why don't you kind of let that one piece of business go? "You've got federal business." But those ripple effects we understand from one contract kind of move things around. >> Well, my take on this is just the tempest in the teapot. Either Microsoft's got something that we don't know or they're running scared. My prediction, Stu, is that the clock is going to tick out. D.O.D. is going to award the contract again to Microsoft because I don't think the D.O.D. wants to change based upon the data that I'm getting from my reporting. And then ultimately Amazon will keep this going in court because Microsoft has been deficient on winning the deal. And that is by the judge and in government contracts, as you know, when you're deficient, you're ineligible. So essentially on the tech specs, Microsoft failed to meet the criteria of the contract and they're deficient. They still can't host top secret content even if they wanted to. This is going to be a game changer. If this comes out to be true, it will be a huge tech scandal. If it's true, then AWS is going to have egg on their face. Okay, so moving past JEDI, this speaks to the large scale problems that are having with COVID. You seeing Amazon, they're all working at home, but they still get to run the servers. They can do it, they've got cloud native, you got DevOps, but for their customers Stu, but people who are trying to do hybrid, what are you hearing in terms of the kinds of situations that people are doing? Are they still going to work with masks on? Are there still data centers that need to be managed? What are you hearing Stu, in the tech worlds do around COVID-19 and as the cloud becomes more apparent, it's obvious that if you're not cloud native, you're going to be on the wrong side of history here, it's pretty obvious. >> Well, absolutely John, there is a bit of a tailwind behind cloud or with COVID-19, everything from, you mentioned work from home. Everybody needs to be on their VPN. They need to access their services, where they are. If you've got a global workforce, if you thought that your infrastructure was going to be able to handle that, you might not be in for a good story. AWS is meeting that need. There's been some of the cloud providers that have had performance issues, that have had to prioritize which customers can get access to things. AWS is standing strong, they're meeting their customers and they're answering the call of cloud. We know that AWS puts a huge investment into their environment. If you compare an availability zone or from AWS, it is very, very sturdy. It's not just, you know, a small cluster and they say, "Hey, we can run all over the place." To be specific Azure, has been having some of those performance issues and there's been some concerns. Corey actually wrote a really good article talking about that it actually puts a bad view on public cloud in general, but we know not all public clouds are the same. So, Google has been doing quite well, managing the demand spike, so has AWS. Microsoft has needed to respond a little bit. >> Since you just mentioned, Microsoft's outages, Microsoft actually got caught on their 8K filing, which I just had me going through and I noticed that they said they had all this uptime for the cloud. It turns out it wasn't the cloud, it was the team's product. They had to actually put a strike a line through it legally. So a lot of people getting called out, but it doesn't matter, it's a crisis. I think that's not going to be a core issue. This is going to be what technology has been needed the most. And I got to ask you Stu, when was the last time you and I talked about virtual desktops? Because hey, if you're working at home and you're not at your desk, you might need some stuff on your desk. This is a real issue. I mean it's kind of a corner case in tech, but virtual desktops, if you're not at the office, you need to have that at home. This is a huge issue and it's been a surge of demand. >> Yeah, there were jokes in the community that, you know, finally at the year of V.D.I., but desktop as the service John, is an area that took a little while to get going. So, Dave Vellante and I were just having a conversation about this. You and Dave interviewed me when Amazon released workspaces and it was like, you know, Citrix is doing so well and V.D.I. isn't the hotness anymore, but desktop as a service, has grown, if you talk about desktop as a service compared to VDI, VDI is still a bit of a heavy lift. Even if you've got hyper converged infrastructure, roll this out, it's a couple of months to put these whole solutions together. Now if you have some of that infrastructure, can you scale it, can you build them up much faster? Yes you can. But if you're starting to enable your workforce a little bit faster, desktop as a service is going to be faster. AWS has a strong solution with workspaces. It really is that enablement and it's also putting pressure on the SaaS providers. One, they need scale and two, they need to be responsive that some of their customers need to scale up really fast and some of them need to dial things down. Always worry about, some of these contracts that the SaaS providers put you in. So, customers need to make sure they're being loud and clear with their providers. If you need help, if you need to adjust something, push back on them because they should be responsive, because we know that there is a broad impact on this, but it will not be a permanent impact. So, these are the times that companies need to work closely with customers, because otherwise you will, either make a customer for life or you will have somebody that will not be saying good about you for a long time. >> Well Stu, so let's just quickly run through some of the highlights so far on the virtual conference, virtual event. Obviously Amazon pre-announced last month, the Windows migration service, which has been a big part of their business. They've been doing it for 11 years. So we're going to have an interview with an AWS person to talk about that. Also AppFlow is announced as well as part of the virtual kind of private connects. So, you know, you're seeing that right here, large scale data lakes breaking down those silos, moving data from the cloud, from the console into the top applicants, like Salesforce is the big one. So that was kind of pre announced. The big story here is the Kendra availability and the augmented A.I. availability, among other things. This is this big story. This kind of shows the Amazon track record. They pre-announced that re:Invent and try to run as fast as they can to get it shipping. The focus of AI, the focus of large scale capacity, whether it's building on top of EC2, serverless, Lambda, A.I., all this is kind of coming together. Data, high capacity operational throughput and added value. That seems to be the highlights, your reaction? >> Yeah, so John, AppFlow is an interesting one, we were just talking about task providers. An area that we've been spending a lot of time talking with the East coast system is my data is all over the place. Yes, there's my data centers, public cloud, but there's all of these task providers. So, if I have data in ServiceNow I have it in Workday, I have it in Salesforce, how do I have connectors there? How do I secure that? How do I protect that? So Amazon, working with a broad ecosystem and helping to pull that together is definitely an interesting one to watch. Kendra definitely been some good buzz in the ecosystem for a while there. The question is on natural language processing and A.I., where are the customers with these deployments? Because some of them, if they're a little bit more longterm strategic might be the kind of projects that get put on pause rather than the ones that are critical for me to run the business today. >> And I just did a podcast with the VMware ecosystem last week talking about which projects will be funded, which ones won't. It brings up this new virtual work environment, where some people are going to get paid and some people aren't. If you're not core to the enterprise, you're probably not going to get paid. If you're not getting a phone call to come into work, you're probably going to get fired. So there will be projects that will be cut and projects that will be funded. Certainly virtual events, which I want to talk to you about in a minute, to applications that are driving revenue and or engagement around the new workforce. So the virtualization of business is happening. Now, we joke because we know server virtualization actually enabled the cloud, right? So I think there's going to be a huge Cambrian explosion of applications. So I want to get your thoughts, the folks you've been talking through the past few months, what are you hearing in terms of those kinds of projects that people are going to be leaning into and funding, versus ones they might put on hold? Have you heard anything? >> Yeah, well, John, it's interesting, when you go back at its core, what is AWS? And they want to enable build. So the last couple of years we've been talking about all of the new applications that will get built. That's not getting put on hold, John. What I do, not just to run the business but grow the business. I need to still have applications at the core of what we do. Data and application really are what driving companies today. So that piece is so critically important and therefore AWS is a very strategic partner there. >> Yeah, I've been seeing the same things too. I think the common trend that I would just add to that would be I'm seeing companies looking at the COVID crisis as an opportunity. And frankly in some cases an excuse to lay people off and that's kind of, you're seeing some of that. But at the end of the day that people are resetting, re-inventing and then putting new growth strategies together, that still doesn't change. business still needs to get done, so great point. All right, Stu, virtual events. We're here with the AWS summit. Normally we're on the show floor with theCUBE, we are here with the virtual CUBE doing our virtual thing. It's been interesting, Stu. A lot of our events have converted to virtual, some have been canceled but most of them have been been running on the virtual. We've been plugged in. But theCUBE is evolving, and I want to get your thoughts on how you see theCube evolving. I've been getting a lot of questions. This came up again on the VMware community podcast. How has theCUBE morphed? And I know that we've been working hard with a lot of our customers, how have we evolved? Because we're in the middle of this digital wave. This is a virtualization wave. theCUBE is in there. We've been successful, there's been different use cases. Some have been embedded into the software. Amazon's got their own run a show. But events are more than just running the show content. There's a lot more community behind this Stu, your thoughts on how theCUBE has evolved and what are you seeing? >> I'm glad John, you just mentioned community. So you and I have talked many times on air and did this too about theCUBE is as much a network and a community as it is a media company. So, first of all it's been so heartening over the last couple of months that we've been putting out content. We're still getting some great feedback from the community. One of the things I personally miss is, when we step off the stage and you walk the hallway and you bump into people that know and they ask you questions or they share some of the things that they're going through. That data that we always look for is something we still need. So I'm making sure to reach out to friends diving back into the social panels to make sure that we understand the pulse of what's going on. But, John, our community has always been online so a big piece of theCUBE is relatively unchanged other than we're doing all of the interviews remote. We have to deal with everyone's home systems and home network. Every once in a while you hear a dog barking in the background or a child running, but it actually humanized. So there's that opportunity for the communities to rally together. Some of my favorite interviews have been, the open source communities that are gathering together to work on common issues. A lot of them specifically for the global pandemic. And so there are some really good stories out there. I worry when you talk about companies that are saying, Hey, this is the-- (sound cuts out) There have been so many job losses, in this pandemic that it just is heartbreaking. So, we love when the tech community is helping to spur new opportunities, great new industries. I had a great interview that I did with our friends from A Cloud Guru and they've seen about a 20 to 30% increase on people taking the online training. And one of the main things that they're taking training on is the 101 courses on AWS, on Google and on Azure as well as an interesting point John, they said multicloud is something that has come up. So, 2020, we've been wondering is AWS going to admit that multicloud is a thing? Or are they going to stick with their hybrid message and ask that their partners not talk about multicloud? >> It's been interesting on the virtual queue, because we and Amazon's been a visionary in this and letting theCUBE be virtual with them. It's become a connective tissue, Stu, between the community and if you think about how much money the companies are saving by not running the physical events and with the layoffs as you mentioned, I think there could be an opportunity for theCUBE to be that connective tissue to bring people together. And I think that's the mission that we hope will unfold. But ultimately digital investments will probably go up from this. I'm seeing a lot of great conversion around, okay, so the content, what does it mean to me? Is that my my friend group, how are my friends involved? How do I learn, how do I discover? How do I connect? And I think the interesting thing about theCube is we've seen that upfront and I think there's a positive sign ahead, Stu, around virtualization of the media and the community and I think is going to be an economic opportunity and I hope that we could help people find either jobs or ways to reengage and reconnect. So again, re:Invent's coming, you've got VMworld, all these big shows too, they drop so much cash! Can you imagine if they put all that cash into the community? I think that's a viable scenario. >> Yeah, no, absolutely, John. There is big money in events. Yes, there are less costs. There are also almost none of them are charging for people to attend and very few of them are charging their sponsors. So, big shift in how we have to look at these. It needs to be a real focus on content. I mean, from our standpoint, John, from day one, and we've been doing this a decade now, in the early days when it was a wing and a prayer on the technology, it was always about the content and the best people help extract that signal from the noise. So, some things have changed, the mission overall stays the same. >> And you know what, Amazon is being humble. They're saying we're figuring it out. Of course, we're psyched that we're there with the virtual CUBE. Stu, thanks for spending the time kicking off this virtual coverage, wrap up. Not as good as face-to-face, love to be there on site, but I think it's going to be easier to get guests too Stu in the virtual world, but we're going to go to a hybrid as soon as it comes back to normal. It sounds like cloud Stu, public hybrid virtual. There it is. Stu, thanks so much. >> Thanks John. >> Okay, that's theCUBE coverage for AWS Summit Virtual Online. It's theCUBE virtual coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for the next segment. (upbeat music)

la from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web Services and in care along with its ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone cubes live coverage of eight of us reinvent 2019 this is the cube seventh year covering Amazon reinvent it's their eighth year of the conference and want to just shout out to Intel for their sponsorship for these two amazing sets without their support we would be able to bring our mission of great content to you I'm John Force to many men we're here with the chief of AWS the chief executive officer Andy chassis tech athlete and himself three our keynotes welcome to the cube again great to see you great to be here thanks for having me guys congratulations on a great show a lot of great buzz thank you a lot of good stuff your keynote was phenomenal you get right into you giddy up right into as you say three hours 30 announcements you guys do a lot but what I liked the new addition in the last year and this year is the band house man yeah they're pretty good they hit the Queen note so that keeps it balanced so we're going to work on getting a band for the cube awesome so if I have to ask you what's your walk-up song what would it be there's so many choices depends what kind of mood I'm in but maybe times like these by the Foo Fighters these are unusual times right now Foo Fighters playing at the Amazon intersect show they are Gandy well congratulations on the intersect you got a lot going on intersect is the music festival I'll get that in a second but I think the big news for me is two things obviously we had a one-on-one exclusive interview and you laid out essentially what looks like was gonna be your keynote it was transformation key for the practice I'm glad to practice use me anytime yeah and I like to appreciate the comments on Jedi on the record that was great but I think the transformation story is a very real one but the NFL news you guys just announced to me was so much fun and relevant you had the Commissioner of NFL on stage with you talking about a strategic partnership that is as top-down aggressive goals you could get yeah I have Roger Goodell fly to a tech conference to sit with you and then bring his team talk about the deal well you know we've been partners with the NFL for a while with the next-gen stats are they using all their telecasts and one of the things I really like about Roger is that he's very curious and very interested in technology in the first couple times I spoke with him he asked me so many questions about ways the NFL might be able to use the cloud and digital transformation to transform their various experiences and he's always said if you have a creative idea or something you think that could change the world for us just call me is it or text me or email me and I'll call you back within 24 hours and so we've spent the better part of the last year talking about a lot of really interesting strategic ways that they can evolve their experience both for fans as well as their players and the player health and safe safety initiative it's so important in sports and particularly important with the NFL given the nature of the sport and they've always had a focus on it but what you can do with computer vision and machine learning algorithms and then building a digital athlete which is really like a digital twin of each athlete so you understand what does it look like when they're healthy what and compare that when it looks like they may not be healthy and be able to simulate all kinds of different combinations of player hits and angles and different plays so that you can try to predict injuries and predict the right equipment you need before there's a problem can be really transformational so it was super excited about it did you guys come up with the idea it was the collaboration between there's really a collaboration I mean they look they are very focused on player's safety and health and it's it's a big deal for their you know they have two main constituents that the players and fans and they care deeply about the players and it's a it's a hard problem in a sport like football but you watch it yeah I gotta say it does point out the use cases of what you guys are promoting heavily at the show here of the stage maker studio which is a big part of your keynote where they have all this data right and they're dated hoarders they've the hoard data but they're the manual process of going through the data it was a killer problem this is consistent with a lot of the enterprises that are out there they have more data than they even know so this seems to be a big part of the strategy how do you get the customers to actually a wake up to the fact that they got data and how do you tie that together I think in almost every company they know they have a lot of data and there are always pockets of people who want to do something with it but when you're gonna make these really big leaps forward these transformations so things like Volkswagen is doing with they're reinventing their factories in their manufacturing process or the NFL where they're gonna radically transform how they do players health and safety it starts top-down and if they if the senior leader isn't convicted about wanting to take that leap forward and trying something different and organizing the data differently and organizing the team differently and using machine learning and getting help from us and building algorithms and building some muscle inside the company it just doesn't happen because it's not in the normal machinery of what most companies do and so it all wait almost always starts top-down sometimes it can be the commissioner or the CEO sometimes it can be the CIO but it has to be senior level conviction or it does get off the ground and the business model impact has to be real for NFL they know concussions hurting their youth pipelining this is a huge issue for them is their business model they they lose even more players to lower extremity injuries and so just the notion of trying to be able to predict injuries and you know the impact it can have on rules the impact it can have on the equipment they use it's a huge game changer when they look at the next 10 to 20 years all right love geeking out on the NFL but no more do you know off camera a 10 man is here defeated season so everybody's a Patriots fan now it's fascinating to watch you and your three-hour keynote Vernor in his you know architectural discussion really showed how AWS is really extending its reach you know it's not just a place for a few years people have been talking about you know cloud as an operation operational model it's not a destination or a location but I felt that really was laid out is you talked about breadth and depth and Verna really talked about you know architectural differentiation people talk about cloud but there are very there are a lot of differences between the vision for where things are going help us understand and why I mean Amazon's vision is still a bit different from what other people talk about where this whole cloud expansion journey but put over what tagger label you want on it but you know the control plane and the technology that you're building and where you see that going well I think that we've talked about this a couple times we we have two macro types of customers we have those that really want to get at the load level building blocks and stitch them together creatively and however they see fit to create whatever is in there in their heads and then we have this second segment of customers who say look I'm willing to give up some of that flexibility in exchange for getting 80% of the way they're much faster in an abstraction that's different from those low level building blocks in both segments of builders we want to serve and serve well and so we built very significant offerings in both areas I think when you look at micro services you know some of it has to do with the fact that we have this very strongly held belief born out of several years at Amazon where you know the first seven or eight years of Amazon's consumer business we basically jumbled together all of the parts of our technology and moving really quickly and when we wanted to move quickly where you had to impact multiple internal development teams it was so long because it was this big ball this big monolithic piece and we got religion about that and trying to move faster in the consumer business and having to tease those pieces apart and it really was a lot of the impetus behind conceiving AWS where it was these low-level very flexible building blocks that don't try and make all the decisions for customers they get to make them themselves and some of the micro services that you saw Verner talking about just you know for instance what we what we did with nitro or even what we do with firecracker those are very much about us relentlessly working to continue to to tease apart the different components and even things that look like low-level building blocks over time you build more and more features and all of a sudden you realize they have a lot of things that are they were combined together that you wished weren't that slowed you down and so nitro was a completely reimagining of our hypervisor and virtualization layer to allow us both to let customers have better performance but also to let us move faster and have a better security story for our customers I got to ask you the question around transformation because I think it all points to that all the data points you got all the references goldman-sachs on stage at the keynote Cerner and the healthcare just an amazing example because I mean this demonstrating real value there there's no excuse I talked to someone who wouldn't be named last night and then around the area said the CIA has a cost bar like this cost up on a budget like this but the demand for mission based apps is going up exponentially so there's need for the cloud and so seeing more and more of that what is your top-down aggressive goals to fill that solution base because you're also very transformational thinker what is your what is your aggressive top-down goals for your organization because you're serving a market with trillions of dollars of span that's shifting that's on the table a lot of competition now sees it too they're gonna go after it but at the end of the day you have customers that have that demand for things apps yeah and not a lot of budget increase at the same time this is a huge dynamic what's your goals you know I think that at a high level are top-down aggressive goals so that we want every single customer who uses our platform to have an outstanding customer experience and we want that outstanding customer experience in part is that their operational performance and their security are outstanding but also that it allows them to build and it build projects and initiatives that change their customer experience and allow them to be a sustainable successful business over a long period of time and then we also really want to be the technology infrastructure platform under all the applications that people build and they were realistic we know that that you know the market segments we address with infrastructure software hardware and data center services globally are trillions of dollars in the long term it won't only be us but we have that goal of wanting to serve every application and that requires not just the security operational performance but also a lot of functionality a lot of capability we have by far the most amount of capability out there and yet I would tell you we have three to five years of items on our roadmap that customers want us to add and that's just what we know today well and any underneath the covers you've been going through some transformation when we talked a couple years ago about how serverless is impacting things I've heard that that's actually in many ways glue behind the two pizza teams to work between organizations talk about how the internal transformations are happening how that impacts your discussions with customers that are going through that transformation well I mean there's a lot of a lot of the technology we build comes from things that we're doing ourselves you know and that we're learning ourselves it's kind of how we started thinking about microservices serverless - we saw the need we know we would have we would build all these functions that when some kind of object came into an object store we would spin up compute all those tasks would take like three or four hundred milliseconds then we spin it back down and yet we'd have to keep a cluster up in multiple availability zones because we needed that fault tolerance and it was we just said this is wasteful and that's part of how we came up with lambda and that you know when we were thinking about lambda people understandably said well if we build lambda and we build the serverless event-driven computing a lot of people who are keeping clusters of instances aren't going to use them anymore it's going to lead to less absolute revenue for us but we we have learned this lesson over the last 20 years at Amazon which is if it's something it's good for customers you're much better off cannibalizing yourself and doing the right thing for customers and being part of shaping something and I think if you look at the history of Technology you always build things and people say well that's gonna cannibalize this and people are gonna spend less money what really ends up happening is they spend spend less money per unit of compute but it allows them to do so much more that the ultimately long-term end up being you know more significant customers I mean you are like beating the drum all the time customers what they say we implement the roadmap I got that you guys have that playbook down that's been really successful for you yeah two years ago you told me machine learning was really important to you because your customers told what's the next tranche of importance for customers what's on top of mine now as you look at this reinvent kind of coming to a close replays tonight you had conversations your your tech a fleet you're running around doing speeches talking to customers what's that next hill from from my fist machine learning today there's so much I mean that's not it's not a soup question you know I think we're still in this in the very early days of machine learning it's not like most companies have mastered yet even though they're using it much more than they did in the past but you know I think machine learning for sure I think the edge for sure I think that we're optimistic about quantum computing even though I think it'll be a few years before it's really broadly useful we're very enthusiastic about robotics I think the amount of functions are going to be done by these robotic applications are much more expansive than people realize it doesn't mean humans won't have jobs they're just going to work on things that are more value-added I thought we're believers in augmented and virtual reality we're big believers and what's going to happen with voice and I'm also I think sometimes people get bored you know I think you're even bored with machine learning maybe already but yet people get bored with the things you've heard about but I think just what we've done with the chips you know in terms of giving people 40% better price performance in the latest generation of x86 processors it's pretty unbelievable and the difference in what people are going to be able to do or just look at big data I mean big date we haven't gotten through big data where people have totally solved it the amount of data that companies want to store process and analyze is exponentially larger than it was a few years ago and it will I think exponentially increase again in the next few years you need different tools the service I think we're not we're not for with machine learning we're excited to get started because we have all this data from the video and you guys got sage maker yeah we call it a stairway to machine learning heaven we start with the data move up what now guys are very sophisticated with what you do with technology and machine learning and there's so much I mean we're just kind of again in this early innings and I think that it was soaked before sage maker was so hard for everyday developers and data scientists to build models but the combination of sage maker and what's happened with thousands of companies standardizing on it the last two years Plus now sage maker studio giant leap forward we hope to use the data to transform our experience with our audience and we're on Amazon Cloud I really appreciate that and appreciate your support if we're with Amazon and Instant get that machine learning going a little faster for us a big that'll be better if you have requests so any I'm you talked about that you've got the customers that are builders and the customers that need simplification traditionally when you get into the you know the heart of the majority of adoption of something you really need to simplify that environment but when I think about the successful enterprise of the future they need to be builders yeah so has the model flipped if you know I normally would said enterprise want to pay for solutions because they don't have the skill set but if they're gonna succeed in this new economy they need to go through that transformation that yeah so I mean are we in just a total new era when we look back will this be different than some of these previous waves it's a it's a really good question Stu and I I don't think there's a simple answer to it I think that a lot of enterprises in some ways I think wish that they could just skip the low level building blocks and and only operate at that higher level abstraction it's why people were so excited by things like sage maker or code guru or Kendra or contact lens these are all services that allow them to just send us data and then run it on our models and get back the answers but I think one of the big trends that we see with enterprises is that they are taking more and more of their development in-house and they are wanting to operate more and more like startups I think that they admire what companies like Airbnb and Pinterest and slack and and you know Robin Hood and a whole bunch of those companies stripe have done and so when you know I think you go through these phases and errors where there are waves of success at different companies and then others want to follow that success and and replicate and so we see more and more enterprises saying we need to take back a lot of that development in-house and as they do that and as they add more developers those developers in most cases like to deal with the building blocks and they have a lot of ideas on how they can create us to creatively stitch them together on that point I want to just quickly ask you on Amazon versus other clouds because you made a comment to me in our interview about how hard it is to provide a service that to other people and it's hard to have a service that you're using yourself and turn that around and the most quoted line in my story was the compression algorithm there's no compression outliving for experience which to me is the diseconomies of scale for taking shortcuts yeah and so I think this is a really interesting point just add some color comments or I think this is a fundamental difference between AWS and others because you guys have a trajectory over the years of serving at scale customers wherever they are whatever they want to do now you got micro services it's even more complex that's hard yeah how about that I think there are a few elements to that notion of there's no compression algorithm I think the first thing to know about AWS which is different is we just come from a different heritage in a different background we sweep ran a business for a long time that was our sole business that was a consumer retail business that was very low margin and so we had to operate a very large scale given how many people were using us but also we had to run infrastructure services deep in the stack compute storage and database in reliable scalable data centers at very low costs and margins and so when you look at our our business it actually today I mean it's it's a higher margin business in our retail business the lower margin business and software companies but at real scale it's a it's a high-volume relatively low margin business and the way that you have to operate to be successful with those businesses and the things you have to think about and that DNA come from the type of operators that we have to be in our consumer retail business and there's nobody else in our space that does that you know the way that we think about cost the way we think about innovation and the data center and and I also think the way that we operate services and how long we've been operating services of the company it's a very different mindset than operating package software then you look at when you think about some of the issues and very large scale cloud you can't learn some of those lessons until you get two different elbows of the curve and scale and so what I was telling you is it's really different to run your own platform for your own users where you get to tell them exactly how it's going to be done but that's nothing really the way the real world works I mean we have millions of external customers who use us from every imaginable country and location whenever they want without any warning for lots of different use cases and they have lots of design patterns and we don't get to tell them what to do and so operating a cloud like that at a scale that's several times larger the next few providers combined is a very different endeavor and a very different operating rigor well you got to keep raising the bar you guys do a great job really impress again another tsunami of announcements in fact you had to spill the beans early with quantum the day before the event tight schedule I gotta ask you about the music festival because I think there's a really cool innovation it's the inaugural intersex conference yeah it's not part of replay which is the concert tonight right it's a whole new thing big music act you're a big music buff your daughter's an artist why did you do this what's the purpose what's your goal yeah it's an experiment I think that what's happened is that reinvent has gotten so big with 65,000 people here that to do the party which we do every year it's like a thirty five forty thousand person concert now which means you have to have a location that has multiple stages and you know we thought about it last year when we were watching it and we said we're kind of throwing like a four hour music festival right now there's multiple stages and it's quite expensive to set up that set for our partying we said well maybe we don't have to spend all that money for four hours in the rip it apart because actually the rent to keep those locations for another two days is much smaller than the cost of actually building multiple stages and so we we would try it this year we're very passionate about music as a business and I think we are I think our customers feel like we throw in a pretty good music party the last few years and we thought we were trying at a larger scale as an experiment and if you look at the economics the headliners real quick the Foo Fighters are headlining on Saturday night Anderson Park and the free Nashville free Nationals Brandi Carlile Shawn Mullins Willie Porter it's a good set Friday night it's back in Kacey Musgraves so it's it's a really great set of about 30 artists and we're hopeful that if we can build a great experience that people want to attend that we can do it it's scale and it might be something that you know both pays for itself and maybe helps pay for reinvent to overtime and you know I think that we're also thinking about it as not just a music concert and festival the reason we named it intersect is that we want an intersection of music genres and people and ethnicities and age groups and art and Technology all there together and this will be the first year we try it it's an experiment and we're really excited about I'm gone congratulations all your success and I want to thank you we've been seven years here at reinvent we've been documenting the history two sets now once-dead upstairs so appreciate a cube is part of reinvent you know you guys really are a part of the event and we really appreciate your coming here and I know people appreciate the content you create as well and we just launched cube 365 on Amazon Marketplace built on AWS so thanks for letting us cool build on the platform appreciate it thanks for having me guys Jesse the CEO of AWS here inside the cube it's our seventh year covering and documenting they're just the thunderous innovation that Amazon is doing they're really doing amazing work building out the new technologies here in the cloud computing world I'm John Force too many men be right back with more after this short break [Music]

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hello everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Day three coverage of ADAS reinvent in Las Vegas. It's the cubes coverage. Want to thank Intel for being the headline sponsor for the cube two sets. Without Intel, we wouldn't make it happen. We're here extracting the signal from the noise as usual. Wall-to-wall SiliconANGLE the cube coverage. I'm John Feria with student men and men doing a keynote analysis from Verner Vogel. Stu, you know Vernor's, they always, they always got the disc, the format jazzy kicks it off. You get the partner thing on day two and then they say Verner flask could nerd out on all the good stuff. Uh, containers. Coobernetti's all under the hood stuff. So let's jump in a keynote analysis. What's your take? What's Verner's posture this year? What's the vibe? What's the overall theme of the keynote? >>Well, well, first of all, John, to answer the question that everybody asks when Werner takes the stage, this year's t-shirt was posse. So Verner usually either has a Seattle band or it's usually a Dutch DJ, something like that. So he always delivers it. The geek crowd there. And really after seeing it of sitting through Werner's keynote, I think everybody walks out with AWS certification because architecturally we dig into all these environments. So right. You mentioned they started out with the master class on how Amazon built their hypervisor. Super important. Nitro underneath is the secret sauce. When they bought Annapurna labs, we knew that those chips would be super important going forward. But this is what is going to be the driver for outposts. It is the outpost is the building block for many of the other services announced this week. And absolutely the number one thing I'm hearing in the ecosystems around outpost but far gate and firecracker micro databases and managing containers. >>Um, they had some enterprises up on stage talking about transformation, picking up on the themes that Andy started with his three hour keynote just yesterday. But um, it's a lighter on the news. One of the bigger things out there is we will poke Amazon about how open and transparent they are. About what they're doing. And one of the things they announced was the Amazon builders library. So it's not just getting up on stage and saying, Hey, we've got really smart people and we architected these things and you need to use all of our tools, but Hey, this is how we do things. Reminded me a little bit of a, you know, just echoes of what I heard from get lab, who of course is fully open source, fully transparent, but you know, Amazon making progress. It's Adrian Cockcroft and that team has moved on open source, the container group. >>I had a great interview yesterday with Deepak saying, and Abby fuller, the container group actually has a roadmap up on containers. They're so sharing a lot of deep knowledge and good customers talk about how they're taking advantage, transforming their business. In serverless, I mean, John, coming out of Andy's keynote, I was like, there wasn't a lot of security and there wasn't a lot of serverless. And while serverless has been something that we know is transforming Amazon underneath the covers, we finally got to hear a little bit more about not just Lambda but yes, Lambda, but the rest of it as to how serverless is transforming underneath. >>You know ain't Jessie's got along three hour keynote, 30 announcements, so he has to cut save some minutes there. So for Verner we were expecting to go in a little bit more deeper dive on this transformational architecture. What did you learn about what they're proposing, what they're saying or continuing to say around how enterprises should be reborn in the cloud? Because that's the conversation here and again, we are, the memes that are developing are take the T out of cloud native. It's cloud naive. If you're not doing it right, you're going to be pretty naive. And then reborn in the cloud is the theme. So cloud native, born in the cloud, that's proven. Reborn in the cloud is kind of the theme we're hearing. Did he show anything? Did he talk about what that architecture is for transformation? Right. >>Did actually, it was funny. I'm in a watching the social stream. While things are going on. There was actually a cube alumni that I follow that we've interviewed at this show and he's like, if we've heard one of these journeys to you know, transformation, haven't we heard them all and I said, you know, while the high level message may be similar is I'm going to transfer math transform, I'm going to use data. When you looked at what they were doing, and this is a significant, you know, Vanguard, you know the financial institutions, Dave Volante commenting that you know the big banks, John, we know Goldman Sachs, we know JP Morgan, these banks that they have huge it budgets and very smart staffs there. They years ago would have said, Oh we don't need to use those services. We'll do what ourselves. Well Vanguard talking about how they're transforming rearchitecting my trip services. >>I love your term being reborn cloud native because that is the architecture. Are you cloud native or I used to call it you've kind of cloud native or kinda you know a little bit fo a cloud. Naive is a great term too. So been digging in and it is resonating is to look, transformation is art. This is not trying to move the organizational faster than it will naturally happen is painful. There's skillsets, there's those organizational pieces. There are politics inside the company that can slow you down in the enterprise is not known for speed. The enterprises that will continue to exist going forward better have taken this methodology. They need to be more agile and move. >>Well the thing about the cloud net naive thing that I like and first of all I agree with reborn in the cloud. We coined the term in the queue but um, that's kinda got this born again kind of vibe to it, which I think is what they're trying to say. But the cloud naive is, is some of the conversations we're hearing in the community and the customer base of these clouds, which is there are, and Jesse said it is Kino. There are now two types of developers and customers, the ones that want the low level building blocks and ones who want a more custom or solution oriented packages. So if you look at Microsoft Azure and Oracle of the clouds, they're trying to appeal to the folks that are classic it. Some are saying that that's a naive approach because it's a false sense of cloud, false sense of security. >>They got a little cloud. Is it really true? Cloud is, it's really true. Cloud native. So it's an interesting confluence between what true cloud is from a cloud native standpoint and yet all the big success stories are transformations not transitions. And so to me, I'm watching this it market, which is going to have trillions of dollars in, are they just transitioning? I old it with a new coat of paint or is it truly a skill, a truly an architectural transformation and does it impact the business model? That to me is the question. What's your reaction to that? >>Yeah, so John, I think actually the best example of that cloud native architecture is the thing we're actually all talking about this week, but is misunderstood. AWS outpost was announced last year. It is GA with the AWS native services this year. First, the VMware version is going to come out early in 2020 but here's why I think it is super exciting but misunderstood. When Microsoft did Azure stack, they said, we're going to give you an availability zone basically in your data center. It wasn't giving you, it was trying to extend the operational model, but it was a different stack. It was different hardware. They had to put these things together and really it's been a failure. The architectural design point of outpost is different. It is the same stack. It is an extension of your availability zone, so don't think of it of I've got the cloud in my data center. >>It's no, no, no. What I need for low latency and locality, it's here, but starting off there is no S3 in it because we were like, wait, what do you mean there's no S3 in it? I want to do all these services and everything. Oh yeah. Your S three bucket is in your local AC, so why would you say it's sharing? If you are creating data and doing data, of course I want it in my S three bucket. You know that, that that makes that no, they're going to add us three next year, but they are going to be very careful about what surfaces do and don't go on. This is not, Oh Amazon announces lots of things. Of course it's on outpost. It has the security, it has the operational model. It fits into the whole framework. It can be disconnected song, but it is very different. >>I actually think it's a little bit of a disservice. You can actually go see the rack. I took a selfie with it and put it out on Twitter and it's cool gear. We all love to, you know, see the rack and see the cables and things like that. But you know, my recommendation to Amazon would be just put a black curtain around it because pay no attention to what's here. Amazon manages it for you and yes, it's Amazon gear with the nitro chip underneath there. So customers should not have to think about it. It's just when they're doing that architecture, which from an application standpoint, it's a hybrid architecture. John, some services stay more local because of latency, but others it's that transformation. And it's moving the cloud, the edge, my data center things are much more mobile. Can you to change and move over? >>Well this spring you mentioned hybrid. I think to me the outpost announcement in terms of unpacking that is all about validation of hybrid. You know, VMware's got a smile on their face. Sanjay Poonen came in because you know Gelson you're kind of was pitching hybrid, you know, we were challenging him and then, but truly this means cloud operations has come. This is now very clear. There's no debate and this is what multi-cloud ultimately will look like. But hybrid cloud and public cloud is now the architecture of the of it. There's no debate because outpost is absolute verification that the cloud operating model with the cloud as a center of gravity for all the reasons scale, lower costs management, but moving the cloud operations on premises or the edge proves hybrid is here to stay. And that's where the money is. >>So John, there's a small nuance I'll say there because hybrid, we often think of public and private as equal. The Amazon positioning is it's outpost. It's an extension of what we're doing. The public cloud is the main piece, the edge and the outposts are just extensions where we're reaching out as opposed to if I look at, you know what VMware's doing, I've got my data center footprint. You look at the HCI solution out there. Outpost is not an HCI competitor and people looking at this misunderstand the fundamental architecture in there. Absolutely. Hybrid is real. Edge is important. Amazon is extending their reach, but all I'm saying is that nuance is still, Amazon has matured their thinking on hybrid or even multi-cloud. When you talk to Andy, he actually would talk about multi-cloud, but still at the center of gravity is the public cloud and the Amazon services. It's not saying that, Oh yeah, like you know, let's wrap arounds around all of your existing, >>well, the reason why I liked the cloud naive, take the T out of cloud native and cloud naive is because there is a lot of negativity around what cloud actually is about. I forget outpost cloud itself, and if you look at like Microsoft for instance, love Microsoft, I think they do an amazing work. They're catching up as fast as they can, but, and they play the car. Well we are large scale too, but the difference between Amazon and Microsoft Azure is very clear. Microsoft's had these data centers for MSN, I. E. browsers, global infrastructure around the world for themselves and literally overnight they have to serve other people. And if you look at Gardner's results, their downtime has been pretty much at an all time high. So what you're seeing is the inefficiencies and the district is a scale for Microsoft trying to copy Amazon because they now have to serve millions of customers anywhere. This is what Jessie was telling me in my one-on-one, which is there's no compression algorithm for experience. What he's basically saying is when you try to take shortcuts, there's diseconomies of scale. Amazon's got years of economies of scale, they're launching new services. So Jesse's bet is to make the capabilities. The problem is Microsoft Salesforce do is out there and Amos can't compete with, they're not present and they're going into their customers think we got you covered. And frankly that's working like real well. >>Yeah. So, so, so John, we had the cube at Microsoft ignite. I've done that show for the last few years. And my takeaway at Microsoft this year was they build bridges. If you are, you know, mostly legacy, you know, everything in my data center versus cloud native, I'm going to build your bridge. They have five different developer groups to work with you where you are and they'll go there. Amazon is a little bit more aggressive with cloud native transformation, you know, you need to change your mindset. So Microsoft's a little bit more moderate and it is safer for companies to just say, well, I trust Microsoft and I've worked with Microsoft and I've got an enterprise license agreement, so I'll slowly make change. But here's the challenge, Don. We know if you really want to change your business, you can't get there incrementally. Transformation's important for innovation. So the battle is amazing. You can't be wrong for betting on either Microsoft or Amazon these days. Architecturally, I think Amazon has clear the broadest and deepest out there. They keep proving some of their environments and it has, >>well the economies of scale versus diseconomies scale discussion is huge because ultimately if Microsoft stays on that path of just, you know, we got a two and they continue down that path, they could be on the wrong side of the history. And I'll tell you why I see that and why I'm evaluating Microsoft one, they have the data center. So can they reach tool fast enough? Can they, can they eliminate that technical debt because ultimately they're, they're making a bet. And the true bet is if they become just an it transition, they in my opinion, will, will lose in the long run. Microsoft's going all in on, Nope, we're not the old guard. We're the new guard. So there's an interesting line being formed too. And if Microsoft doesn't get cloud native and doesn't bring true scale, true reliability at the capabilities of Amazon, then they're just going to be just another it solution. And they could, that could fall right on there, right on their face on that. >>And John, when we first came to this show in 2013 it was very developer centric and could Amazon be successful in wooing the enterprise? You look around this show, the answer was a resounding yes. Amazon is there. They have not lost the developers. They're doing the enterprise. When you talk to Andy, you talked about the bottoms up and the top down leadership and working there and across the board as opposed to Google. Google has been trying and not making great progress moving to the enterprise and that has been challenging. >>Oh, I've got to tell you this too. Last night I was out and I got some really good information on jet eye and I was networking around and kind of going in Cognito mode and doing the normal and I found someone who was sharing some really critical information around Jedi. Here's what I learned around this is around Microsoft, Microsoft, one that Jed ideal without the capabilities to deliver on the contract. This was a direct quote from someone inside the DOD and inside the intelligence community who I got some clear information and I said to him, I go, how's that possible? He says, Microsoft one on the fact that they say they could do it. They have not yet proven any capabilities for Jedi. And he even said quote, they don't even have the data centers to support the deal. So here you have the dynamic we save, we can do it. Amazon is doing it. This is ultimately the true test of cloud naive versus cloud native. Ask the clouds, show me the proof, John, you could do it and I'll go with, >>you've done great reporting on the jet. I, it has been a bit of a train wreck to watch what's going on in the industry with that because we know, uh, Microsoft needs to get a certain certification. They've got less than a year. The clock is ticking to be able to support some of those environments. Amazon could support that today. So we knew when this started, this was Amazon's business and that there was the executive office going in and basically making sure that Amazon did not win it. So we said there's a lot of business out there. We know Amazon doing well, and the government deals Gelsinger was on record from VMware talking about lots of, >>well here's, here's, here's the thing. I also talked to someone inside the CIA community who will tell me that the spending in the CIA is flat. Okay. And the, the flatness of the, of the spending is flat, but the demand for mission support is going exponential. So the cloud fits that bill. On the Jedi side, what we're hearing is the DOD folks love this architecture. It was not jury rig for Amazon's jury rig for the workload, so that they're all worried that it's going to get scuttled and they don't want that project to fail. There's huge support and I think the Jedi supports the workload transformational thinking because it's completely different. And that's why everyone was running scared because the old guard was getting, getting crushed by it. But no one wants that deal to fail. They want it to go forward. So it's gonna be very interesting dynamics do if Microsoft can't deliver the goods, Amazon's back in the driver's seat >>deal. And John, I guess you know my final takeaway, we talked a bunch about outpost but that is a building block, 80 West local zones starting first in LA for the telco media group, AWS wavelength working with the five G providers. We had Verizon on the program here. Amazon is becoming the everywhere cloud and they really, as Dave said in your opening keynote there, shock and awe, Amazon delivers mere after a year >>maybe this logo should be everything everywhere cause they've got a lot of capabilities that you said the everything cloud, they've got everything in the store do great stuff. Great on the keynote from Verner Vogel's again, more technology. I'm super excited around the momentum around Coobernetti's you know we love that they think cloud native is going to be absolutely legit and continue to be on a tear in 2020 and beyond. I think the five G wavelength is going to change the network constructs because that's going to introduce new levels of kinds of policy. Managing data and compute at the edge will create new opportunities at the networking layer, which for us, you know, we love that. So I think the IOT edge is going to be a super, super valuable. We even had Blackberry on their, their car group talking about the software inside the car. I mean that's a moving mobile device of, of of industrial strength is industrial IOT. So industrial IOT, IOT, edge outpost, hybrid dude, we called this what year? Yeah, we call that 2013. >>And John, it's great to help our audience get a little bit more cloud native on their education and uh, you know, make sure that we're not as naive anymore. >>Still you're not naive. You're certainly cloud native, born in the clouds do, it's us born here. Our seventh year here at Amazon web services. Want to thank Intel for being our headline sponsor. Without Intel support, we would not have the two stages and bringing all the wall to wall coverage. Thanks for supporting our mission. Intel. We really appreciate it. Give them a shout out. We've got Andy Jassy coming on for exclusive at three o'clock day three stay with us for more coverage. Live in Vegas for reinvent 2019 be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello there and welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2019. This is theCube's seventh year covering re:Invent. They've been doing this show for eight years, we missed the first year, I'm John Furr, and my co-host David Vellante. We're here extracting the signal from the noise, and we're here with an amazing guest, our friend, she's been here with us from the beginning of theCube, since inception. Always great to get to comment with her. Sandy Carter Vice President with Amazon Web Services. >> Thank you. >> Now in the public sector handling partners. Great to see you, thanks for coming on again and sharing your content. >> So great to see you guys, so dressed up and looking good guys, I have to say. (laughs) >> You're looking good to, but I can't help but stare at our other guest here, the IoT suitcase. >> First, tell us-- >> Yes. >> About the IoT suitcase. >> Well we, in public sector we have a partner program, and that program helps entrepreneurs. And we're really keen on especially helping female entrepreneurs. So one of our entrepreneurs created this suitcase, that's an IoT based suitcase, you can put your logo's and that sort of thing on it, but more importantly for public sectors, she created this safety ring, John. And so, if I touch it I've de-activated it, but if I touch it, it will call the police for me, if I'm being assaulted. Or if I'm having an emergency, I can touch it and have an ambulance come for me as well. And the really cool thing about it is she worked backwards from the customer, figuring out like how are most people assaulted, and if you have an emergency and you fall, what's the best way to get ahold of someone. It's not your phone, because you don't always carry it, it's for a device like this. >> Or a bigger device that you can't, or you leave on the table somewhere, but that's you know it's attractive. >> It's awesome. >> And it's boom, simple. >> And it's pink. (laughs) >> What I love fast about re:Invent as an event is that there's so much innovation going on, but one of the areas that's become modernized very rapidly is the public sector. Your now in this area, there's a lot of partners, a huge ecosystem going, and the modernization effort is real. >> It is. >> Could you share some commentary on what's going on. Give people a feel for the pace of change, what's accelerating? What are people doubling down on, what are some of the dynamics in public sector? >> Yeah, so if you know public sector, public sector actually has a lot of Windows or Microsoft workloads in it. And so we're seeing a lot of public sector customers looking to modernize their Windows workloads, in fact we made several announcements just yesterday around helping more public sector customers modernize. For example, one is Windows Servers 2003, and 2008 will go out of support, and so we have a great new offering, with technology, that can help them to not re-factor, but actually abstract those layers and move quickly to 2016 and 2019, because both of those will go out of support in January. >> A lot of people don't know, and I've learned this from talking with Andy Jassy in the keynote, as well as hearing from some other folks, is that you got, Amazon runs a lot of Windows. >> Oh, we have 57% Windows workloads on AWS in terms of market segment share. Which is 2x the next nearest cloud provider, 2x. And most customers choose to run their Windows workloads on us, because we are so innovative, we move really fast. We're more reliable. The latest public data from 2018 shows that the nearest cloud provider had seven times more downtime. So if your in public sector or even commercial, who can afford to be down that long, and then finally, we have better security. So one of the things we've been focused on for public sector is FedRamp solutions. We know have over 90 solutions that are FedRamp ready. Which is four times more than the next two cloud providers. Four times more than the two combined. >> That's interesting, so I got to ask the question that's popping up in my mind, I'm sure people are curious about. >> Yeah. >> I get the Windows working on Amazon, and that makes a lot of sense, why wouldn't you want to run on the best cloud. The question I would have is, how would the licensing work, because, that's seems to be lock-in spec, Oracle does it, Microsoft does it, does license become the lock-in. So, when something expires, what happens on the licensing side. Licensing is really tricky, and in fact, October 1st, Microsoft made some new licensing changes. And so, we have some announcement to help our customers still bring their own licenses, or what we call fondly, BYOL over to AWS, so they don't have to double invest on the license. >> So you can honor that license on AWS. >> Yeah, and you have to do it on a dedicated host. Which at midnight madness, we announced new dedicated host solution, that's very cloud-like. Makes it as easy to run a dedicated host instance as it is an EC2 instance. So, wicked easy, very cost effective if your moving those on-premises workloads over. >> I just want to point out John, something that's really important here is a lot of times, software companies will use scare tactics, to your point. They'll jack up the cost of the license, to say, ah you got to stay with us, if you run on our hardware or our platform, you pay half. And then they'll put out, "Oh, Amazon's twice as expensive." But these are all negotiable. I've talked to a number of customers, particularly on the Oracle side, and said, no, no, we just went to Oracle and said look, you got a choice, I either give us the same license price or we're migrating off your database. Okay, all right. But some of it is scare tactics, and I think you know increasingly, that's not working in the marketplace. So I just wanted to point that out. >> So what's the strategy for customers to take, I guess that's the question. Because, certainly the licensing becomes again like they get squeezed, I can see that. But what do customers do, is there a playbook? >> Well there is, and so the best one is you buy your license from Microsoft, and then using BYOL, you can bring that over to AWS. It's faster, more performance, more reliable, that sort of thing. If you do get restricted though John, like they are doing for instance with their end of support, you could run that on Azure, and get all the security fixes. We are trying to provide technical solutions, like the ability to abstract Windows Server 2003 and Server 2008 as it goes out of support. >> I mean certainly in the case of Oracle, it used to be you know 10-15 years ago, you didn't have a choice. Instead of one RDBMS, and now it's so much optionality in databases. >> And I will also tell you that we have a lot of customers today, who are migrating from SQL server, or Oracle over to Aurora. Aurora, is equally as performant, and a tenth of the cost. So we actually have this team called the database freedom team that will help you do that migration. In fact I was talking to a very large customer last night, and I was explaining some of the options. And their like, "Let's do the Aurora thing." Let's do it two-step. Let's start by migrating the database over, Oracle and SQL and then I want to go to Aurora. It's like database built for the cloud, it's faster and its cheaper. So why wouldn't you do that? >> Yeah, and I think the key is, to my question about a friction. What's frictionless? How can they get it done quickly without going through the trip-wires of the licensing. >> Certain workloads are tough, right. You know if you're running your business on high transaction volume. But a lot of the analytics stuff, the data warehouse, you know look at Amazon's own experiences. You guys are just ticking it off, moving over from Oracle to Aurora, it's been fun to watch. >> I want to get you guy's perspective Dave, you and Sandy, because I think you guys might have good insight on this, because everyone knows that I'm really passionate about public sector, I've been really enamored with Teresa's business from Day one, but when she won the CIA deal, that really got my attention. As I dug into the Jedi deal, and that all went sideways, it really jumped out at me, that public sector is probably the most transformative market, because they are modernizing at a record pace. I mean this is like a glacier moving market. They don't really have old ways, they got the beltway bandits, they got old procurement, old technology, and like literally in a short period of time, they have to modernize. So they're becoming more enterprise like, can you guys, I mean pros in the enterprise, what's your take? It just seems like a Tsunami of change in the public sector, because the technology is driving it. What do you guys think about this? Am I on or off base? What are some of the trends that are going on? >> I mean I have a perspective, but please. >> No, okay. So I'll start. So I see so much transformation regardless of what industry your looking at. If you're looking at Government for example working with SAP NS2, we just actually took 26 different flavors of SAP ERP for the Navy, and helped them to migrate to the cloud. For the US Navy, which is awesome. Arkis Global, did the same thing for the UK. We actually have Amazon Connect in there, so that's like a cool call center driven by Machine Learning, and the health care system for the UK. Or you can even look at things, like here in the U.S. there's a company that really looks at how you do monitoring for the children to keep them safe. They've partnered up with a National Police Association, and they are bringing that to the cloud. So regardless of education, non-profits, government, and it's around the world, it's not just the US. We are seeing these governments education, start-ups, non-profits, all moving to the cloud, and taking their own legacy systems to Linux, to Aurora, and moving very rapidly. >> And I think Andy hit on it yesterday, it's got to start with top-down leadership. And in the government, if you can get somebody whose a leading thinker, CIO, we're going cloud first. Mandate cloud, you know you saw that years ago, but today, I think it's becoming more mainstream. I think the one big challenge is obviously the disruption in defense and that's why you talked about Jedi, in defense it's very high risk, and it needs disruption, it's like healthcare its like certain parts of financial services are very high risk industries, so they need leadership, and they need the best platform underneath in a long term strategy. >> Well Jedi actually went different. It was actually the right call, but I reported on that. But I think that what gets me is that Cerner on stage yesterday, on Yaney's keynote highlights that it's just not inefficiencies that you can solve, there's multiple win-win-win benefits so in that health care example, lower the costs, better care, better, the providers are in better shape, so in government in public sector, there's really no excuse to take the slack out of the system. >> Yeah. >> Well, there's regulation though. >> Yeah, and Dave mentioned cloud first strategies, we're also seeing a lot of movement around data. You know data is really powerful. Andy mentioned this as well yesterday, but for example in our partner keynote where I just came from. We had on stage Avis. Now, Avis, not public sector customer, but what they're doing is, the gentleman said, was that your car can now talk to you, and that data is now being given to local state officials, local city officials, they can use it for emergency response systems. So that public and private use of data, coming together, is also a big trend that we're seeing. >> I think that's a great example, because Avis I think what he said is a 70 year old company, I think the fleet was 18 billion dollar fleet. >> 600,000 vehicles. >> 600,000 vehicles, 18 billion dollars worth of assets, this is not a born in the cloud start-up, right. That's essentially transformed the entire fleet and made it intelligent. >> Right, and using data to drive a lot of their changes. Like the way they manage fuel for 600,000 cars, and the way they exchange that with local officials is helping them to you know not just be number two, but to start to take over number one. >> But to your point, data is at the core, right. >> Yeah. >> If you are the incumbent and you want to transform, you got to start with the data. >> Sandy, I want to get your reaction to two memes that have been developing on theCube this week. One is, if you take the T out of Cloud Native, and it's Cloud Naive. (Sandy laughs) The other one is, if your born in the cloud, that's great, your winning, but at the price of becoming re-born in the cloud. This is the transformation. Some are, and they're going to not have a long shelf life. So there's a real enterprise and now public sector re-birth, re-borning in the cloud, the new awakening. This is something that is happening. You're an industry veteran, you've seen a lot of waves, what's the re-born, what's this getting back on the cloud, really happening. What is going on? >> It's really interesting, because now I'm in the partner business, and one of our most successful programs is called our partner transformation program. And what that does, is it's a hundred day transformation program to get our partners drinking our own champagne, which is to be on the cloud. And one of the things, we know we first started testing it out, we didn't have a lot of takers, but now, those partners who have gone through that transformation, they're seeing 70% year to year growth, versus other apion partners, even though they're at an advanced layer, they're only seeing 34% growth. So its 2x of revenue growth having transformed to the cloud. So I think, you know back to your question, I think some of this showing the power. Like, why do you go to the cloud, it's not just about cost, it's about agility, it's about innovation, it's about that revenue growth, right. I mean 2x, 70% growth, you can't sneeze at that. That's pretty impactful. >> And you know this really hits, something of passion for me and Dave and our team is the impact on a society. This is a real focus across all generations now, not just millennials, and born in the web, into older folks like us, who have seen before the web. There's real impact, mission driven things. This is a check for good, shaping technology for good. Educate you guys have. This is a big part of what you guys are doing. >> Absolutely, this is one of the reasons why I really wanted to come work in the public sector, because it's fun helping customers make money, and we still do that. But it's really better, when you can help them make money and do great things. So you know, making with the Mayo clinic, for example, and some of these non-profit hospitals, so they can get better data. The GE example that Andy used yesterday, that data is used in public sector. Doing things, like, I know that you guys are part of re-powered tech. You know we brought a 112 unrepresented minorities and women to the conference. And I have to tell you I got goosebumps when one person came up to me and he said, it's the first time he stayed in a hotel, and he's coming here to enhance his coding. You don't realize when I go back to my country, you will have changed my life. And that's just like, don't you get goosebumps from that, versus it's great to change a company, and we want to do that, but it's really great when you can impact people, and that form or fashion. >> And the agility makes that happen faster, its a communal activity, tech for good is here. >> Absolutely, and we just announced today, right before this in the partner's session, that we now have the public safety and disaster response competency for our partners. Because when a customer is dealing with some sort of disaster or emergency they need a disconnected environment for a long periods of time. They need a cloud solution to rally the troops. So we announced that, and we had 17 partners step up immediately to sign up for that. And again, that's all about, giving back, helping in emergency situations, whether it's Ebola in Africa or Hurricane Dorene, right. >> Well, Sandy congratulations, not only have you a senior leader for AWS doing a great job. >> Thank you. >> Just a great passion, and Women in Tech, Underabridged Minorities, you do an amazing job on Tech for Good. >> Thank you. Well it's such an honor to always be on the show. I love what you guys do. I love the memes, I'm going to steal them, okay. >> Can I ask you another question? >> Absolutely. >> Before you wrap. You've had an opportunity to work with developers, you've experienced other clouds. Now you're with AWS and a couple of different roles. Can you describe, what's different about AWS, is it cultural, is it the innovation, I mean what's tangible that you can share with our audience in terms of the difference. >> I think it's a couple of things, the first one the way they we hire. So we hire builders, and you know what it really starts from that hiring. I actually interviewed Vernor the other day, and he and I had a debate about can you transform a company where you have all the same people, or do you need to bring in some new talent as well. So I think it's the way we hire. We search for people that not only meet the leadership criteria, but also are builders, are innovators. And the second one is, you know when Andy says we're customer obsessed, we're partnered obsessed. We really are. We have the mechanisms in place, we have the product management discipline. We have the process to learn from customers. So my first service I launched at AWS, I personally talked to 141 customers and another 100 partners. So think about that, that's almost two hundred almost fifty customers and partners. And at most large companies, as a senior executive you only spend about 20% of your time with customers, I spent about 80% of my time here with customers and partners. And that's a big difference. >> Well we look forward to covering the partner network this year. >> Awesome >> Your amazing, we'll see Teresa Carson on theCube here at 3:30. We are going to ask her some tough questions. What should we ask Teresa? >> What to jest Teresa? Where did you get those red pants? (everyone laughs) >> She's amazing, and again. >> She is amazing. >> We totally believe in what you're doing, and we love the impact, not only the technology advancement for modernizing the public sector across the board. But there's real opportunity for the industry to make, shape technology for betterment. >> Yeah. >> You're doing a great job. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. I think we should start another hashtag for theCube too, is #technologyforgood. >> Awesome. >> What do you think? >> Let's do it. >> I love that. >> But Jonathan been doing a lot of work in that area. >> I know he has. >> We love that. #technologyforgood, #techforgood. This is theCube here live in Las Vegas for re:Invent. I want to thank Intel and AWS, this is the big stage. We had two stages, without sponsoring our mission we wouldn't be here. Thank you AWS and Intel. More coverage after this short break. (dramatic music)

(upbeat music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicone Valley Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversation here at our Palo Alto CUBE studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got a great conversation here with Matt Cain, CEO of Couchbase. Matt, welcome to theCUBE. >> John, thanks for having me here. >> So it's great to have you on because we've been following Couchbase really from the beginning but in 2011 that was the big movement with Couchbase and Membase coming together. Since then quite a tear. Couple of things, one from a business standpoint, good mix of you guys. And then you've got the cloud trend just absolute change the game with scale. So enterprise is now a reeling, cloud is there, the roll of data's changed. Now data's now a part of everything. This has been a big part of the successful companies in this next cloud 2.0 or this next shift. Give us an update on Couchbase. What's going on with the company? You've been the CEO for a couple of years, what's new? >> Yeah, so I'm 2 1/2 years in, John. It's been a great ride so far. Let's talk a little bit about how successful the company is and then we'll spend some time on the market. We just finished the first half of our fiscal year and the business is on a phenomenal trajectory. We're up 70% year on year. Average contract values up 50%. Total contract value up over 100%. We now call 30% of the Fortune 100 customers. So in terms of business success we're really proud of what we're able to do and the problems that we're solving for our customers. The backdrop, and what we're so excited about is the market transition that we're participating in. And it's our belief at Couchbase that the world of databases represents the single biggest market transition that's going to occur in technology over the next couple years. And I think there are two fundamental drivers behind that transition which you talked about. One of them is a technology disruption and the other is business disruption. On the business side we believe deeply in digital transformation or the fourth industrial revolution. And we spend our time going around the world talking to enterprise customers and everyone of 'em is figuring out how to use technology to get closer to their customers and change their business. In order to do that they need to build next generation applications that change our customer experience as both professionals and our personal lives. To enable that though, you need a completely different approach to the database. And how you manage the underlying data to enable those experiences and Couchbase sits at the intersection of those two transitions. >> Want to get into some of the database software dynamics from being a software company, a database company. You guys are, you're on a good wave, you've got a good surfboard as we say in California. But the couple of things I want to get your thoughts on, you see the database market like the oracles of the world. The database that rules the world, that's changed. Now there's multiple databases out there. Different needs for different workloads. And then you've got open-source. So you've got the two things going on I want to get your reaction to. One is the changing landscape of the database market. And two, the impact of open-source because both have been changing and growing and evolving. What's your reaction to those two dynamics? >> So let's talk databases first. I think to reflect on databases one needs to think about the applications that those databases have been architected to support. And if you look at legacy solutions, legacy systems, it was really built on relational technology. And the applications those were optimized for and have been really running for the last many decades were big monolithic applications. And I like to say the implementation of one of those at a large financial firm in New York probably wasn't much different than a consumer company in Seattle. That is changing now in the world of microservices and customer experiences and applications demand a different type of database. And so as we think about what is an application literally everything that we do between the human world and the digital world goes via an application. Whether it's our, you know, checking our banking statements, how we engage with our health care provider, how we travel, how we buy things, whether we're in a store or we're doing it from the comfort of our home. Everything is via an application and what we've come to expect is I want that application to work my way which is different than your way. Well that's a very different thing than legacy applications that were built for CRM or ERP and so databases are going through this big transformation because of that business transition that I talked about where we as consumer are demanding different ways of engaging. And if you look at enterprise success in digital transformation it's very tied to the experiences that they're creating which necessitate a database that is capable of handling those. So we're seeing a massive shift in database technologies or proliferation of new companies that are supporting next generation applications. With respect to open-source, when I talk to enterprises they want the flexibility of a new way of acquiring technology. And people are very used to, "I want to examine things "in the way I want to learn about it. "And I want to play with technology "to make sure that it's going to meet my needs." In the case of databases, does it have the scale and performance? Does it have the usability? And so as an open-source company we want to enable our application developers, our enterprise architects, our dev-ops teams to use the technology and see what's it like. And I think enterprises really appreciate that model. So I think open-source is not only unique to databases, it's how enterprises want to-- >> And certainly is growing and changing as well. So you mentioned open-source and databases. I want to get your thoughts on the cloud impact because if you look at the success of Amazon which I call them the leaders and they won the cloud 1.0 game, or the first inning, or the first game of the double header as some say. APIs led itself well to decoupling and creating highly cohesive workloads. Using APIs and (mumbles). There you got to store data in the databases. You might have one workload with one database and another workload using other databases. So have you have a diverse database landscape. >> For sure. >> So that's kind of out there. So if that's the case how do I as an enterprise deal with this because now I'm thinking, "Okay, I want to stitch it all together. "I got to maintain security. "Now I'm dealing with multiple clouds." It's become a discussion and design point for dealing with all these new dimensions. What's the mind of the customer in all this? >> Yeah, and on top of that I want to do it without dramatically increasing my total cost of ownership. And so I talk a lot to enterprises that represent that very challenge. What they say is I have to change the customer experience. In order to do that I need to understand who they are. What are their preferences? What inventory do I have as an organization? What do I have in physical locations? What we talk about is different data silos. And the reality is data has been in those silos for a long time and in some cases it's not coming out anytime soon. So one of the new approaches with data platforms is how do I take advantage of existing investment and infrastructure and layer in new technology platforms that can sit between the application and the legacy systems? And then you can suck that data into a data store that is helping feed the applications on a real time basis whether that's in the cloud or out to the edge. And Couchbase is one of the examples of a database that can handle that but can handle it at scale unlike any other company on the planet. So when we talk to customers it's how do you extract all that different information which has rich potential if they application logic can present it in a way that's customized but do that in a way that's constantly on, available from anywhere in the network topology and reliable. So it is a challenge and it's one of the greatest computer science challenges in the enterprise right now. >> On that point I want to ask you, what's the number one story or trend that people should be paying attention to? >> Yeah, so you asked a question on cloud, which I think is fundamental, and enterprise is like pay as you go models and utilization based economics which make complete sense. A lot of the architecture therefor is being driven in a centralized manor. So bring information into centralized cloud take advantage of bundling effects. I believe that one of the best kept secrets if you will or biggest trends that people aren't spending as much time on is edge. If you think about us in this studio right now there isn't a cloud sitting behind us and yet you're working on your machine, I was on my device a moment ago and I'm expecting real time information across all my applications. We are constantly manipulating, moving, accessing data and we expect to be able to do that at all times. Well in order to do that at the scale in which we're talking you have to have database technology at the edge. And by definition if you're expecting a roundtrip of data processing, which you're potentially doing, is increasing latency. And that's if you have a reliable connection. If you don't have a reliable connection you're dead in the water with it with that application. So if you think about the future of healthcare, if you think about next generation retail, if you think about connected homes and connected cars, the reality is we're going to expect massive processing of data out at the edge. And I think data platform companies have to be mindful of what they're architecting for. Now Couchbase is uniquely positioned in NoSQL databases that we can run in any public cloud and we can run that same platform out to the edge and orchestrate the movement of applications and data between every point of the network topology. And that's when our enterprises say, "Wow, this is game changing technology "that allows me to serve my customers "the way they want to be served." >> Most people might not know this about you, and I'm going to put you on the spot here, is that you had almost a 10 year run at Cisco. >> Yeah, that's right. >> From the 2000 timeframe. Those were the years that Cisco was cutting its teeth into going from running the internet routes to building application layers and staring see... And the debate at that time was should Cisco move up the stack. I'm sure you were involved in a lot of those conversations. They never did and they're kind of staying in their swim lane. But the network is the network and we're in a distributed network with the cloud, so the question is what is the edge now? So is the edge just the network edge? Is it the persons body? Is it the wearable? How do you guys define the edge? >> I think the edge is constantly being pushed further and further, right? One of the things that we talk a lot about is mobile devices, right? If we think about the device that we as humans ultimately touch at the end where we're not dependent on sensors and things, it is our mobile devices and we all know the impact that's had. I'd be willing to bet you that cup of coffee that you have Couchbase database running in your mobile device because we can actually embed it inside the application and allow the application architect to determine how much data you want to use. But the way we've architected things is we think for the future. This isn't just mobile devices, this is the ability to put things directly into sensors. And if we think about how applications are working the amount of data that you can draw with machine learning algorithms, which we've enabled in our latest release, imagine a world where we're embedding a database instance inside of a sensor. So companies aren't quite there today, but we're not that far off where that's going to be the case. >> Well I bring up the Cisco example because you obviously at that time the challenge was moving packets around from point A to point B. You mentioned storage, you store things from here to there. Move packets around in point A to point B. That's the general construct. But when we think about data they're not packets you're talking about sometimes megabytes and betabytes of data. So the general theme is don't move data around the network. How does that impact your business? How does that impact a customer? Because okay they maybe have campuses or wide area networks or SD-WAN, whatever they got. They still want a instrument, they still want to run compute at the edge, but moving the data around has become persona non gratae in **. So how do people get around that? What's the design point? >> So you and I remember these examples when we use to go into conference rooms and ask for ethernet cables, right? The days of what is my wifi connectivity weren't there yet. If we think about that philosophical challenge that was I'm used to a certain experience with connectivity, how do I enable that same connectivity and performance as I get further and further away from the central topology? And so what we did at Cisco is put more and more sophistication into branch routing and make sure that we had reliability and performance between all points of the topology. The reality is if you were to take that same design approach to databases, what you end up with is that centralized cloud model which a lot of companies have chosen. The problem with it occurs when you're running truly business critical applications that demand real-time performance and processing of massive applications. And so-- >> Like what, retail? >> Yeah. So at Couchbase what we've decided to do is take the data logic where the data resides. So we actually now call four of the top 10 retailers in the world customers. And what they are doing is changing our experience as consumers. Omnichannel. When I walk into a store, imagine if you're at a do-it-yourself retailer, somethings popped off the back of your washing machine and you say, "I don't know how old the washing machine is. "I don't know what the part is." Go into one of these mega stores that we know, with the application now via Couchbase in a mobile phone I could take a picture of that. With machine learning algorithms I'm now running technology to say, "Do I have this in inventory?" "What is it compatible with?" "Oh, and it happens to be on aisle 5." Or, "We don't have it and we're going to ship it out." I mean that's game-changing stuff. Well to enable that use case I need to understand who you are. I need to know what you've bought before. I need to understand our product catalog, what things are compatible with. You're literally storing, in that case, three or four billion instances in a data store that you need to access on a real-time basis. >> In milliseconds. >> In less than 2 1/2 second millisecond response rates. To make the challenge even more exciting, those customers come to us and they say, "Well what if there's a hurricane?" "What if there is no internet connectivity?" "What if I don't have a cellular connection?" I still want my users to have a great customer experience. Well now all of a sudden that isn't an extension of a cloud, that becomes it's own cloud. Now to orchestrate the movement of information and applications from that point and have consistency across all your other stores, you need to figure out orchestrating applications, orchestrating massive amounts of data, having consistency. And so the way to do it, bring the data logic where the data resides and then really understand how applications want to move things around. >> So first of all, my database antenna goes up. The comparison of the old days was you had to go to a database, run packets across the network, access the database, do a lookup, send it back and then go back again. >> Right, right. And that's not possible. That's interesting modern approach. But you also mentioned all that complexity that's involved in that. Okay, no power or no connectivity you have to have an almost a private cloud instance right there. I mean this is complex. >> Very complex. >> And this is some of the kinds of things we saw with the recent Jedi proposal that Amazon and Microsoft fought over. Microsoft won to deal with the battle fields. All this complexity where there's no bandwidth, you got to have the data stored locally, it's got to use the back hall properly. So there's a lot of things going on in the system. There's a lot to keep track of. How do you guys manage that from a product standpoint because there's somethings are out of your control. >> Yeah. >> How does Couchbase make that scale work? >> So that's a great question. Let me again complete the problem statement which is databases need to account for all that complexity but application developers and dev-ops teams don't want to deal with the specifics of a database. And so when we're selling into enterprises at this magnitude we need to be very relevant to application developers where they want speed and agility and familiarity of tools they know and yet we need to have the robustness and completeness of a platform that can literally run business critical applications. And so part of the power of Couchbase is that we engineer with extreme elegance, that we put a lot of that sophistication into the database and our job is to write the code that manages that complexity. But what we also do is we go to enterprise and we say we give you the full power of this NoSQL engine that is in memory, shared nothing, scale out, highest performance on the planet but we allow you all the power and familiarity of the language you know which is SQL. You've got this, I'm sure back to your database education you were familiar with, SQLs a programing language, well there's an entire world of database people and architects that understand that as an interface. So how do I account for that complexity but then go to you and say, "You know that language "that you've been speaking the whole time "talking to your old database? "Well you can speak with that same language "on your new database." And that's how you can really break through enabling customers to modernize their applications with all this complexity but do so in a way that they're comfortable with and is aligned to the skills that they-- >> So you extract away the interface, or language NoSQL I know there are others and modernize onto the covers? >> Correct. >> And at scale? >> At the highest scale. >> All right, I got to ask you about multi-cloud because multi-cloud is something that we were talking before we came on camera around cloud sprawl, inheriting clouds, M&A. Companies have multiple clouds they're dealing with but no one's, well my opinion, no one's architecting to build the best multi-cloud system. They're dealing with multi-clouds and design point which you mentioned which is interesting. I want to get your thoughts on this because you're hearing a lot of multi-cloud buzz. And it's a reality but it's also a challenge for application developers. And I want to get your thoughts on this. How should people thinking about multi-cloud in your opinion? >> Yeah, so my perspective starts with what we hear from our customers. And our customers say for truly business critical applications that they are running their business on, whether it's core booking engines, customer platforms, the touchpoint between users and stores, they say, "Look, I need to design a system "that's reliable and higher performing "and public cloud is a reality. "At the same time I have legacy data center on-prem, "I've got things out at the edge," and so they have to architect a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, and distributed environment. And so depending on the layer of the stack that you're in I think the cloud companies would talk about their multi-cloud strategy. I come at it a different way which is how do we build a data platform that supports the applications that demand a hybrid multi-cloud environment? And so when we have a certain application that's running on-prem, how do we alive for a reliable failover instance to be running in a public cloud? To me that is truly fulfilling on the demands that enterprises have. And so I think multi-cloud is a strategy of all enterprises. Giving the flexibility with things like Kubernetes to avoid cloud lock in. Making sure your system can handle migration of workloads and active, active, active, passive scenario. I think that's our approach to multi-cloud. >> It's interesting, again back to this Jedi thing which was front and center in the news. Kind of speaks to the modern era of what the needs are. The Department of Defense has a multi-cloud strategy, they have multiple clouds, and well turns out Microsoft might be the sole source. But their idea was it's okay to have a sole source cloud for a workload but still deal within a multi-cloud framework. What's your thoughts on this? Some people are saying, "Hey, if you've got a workload "that runs great on cloud, do it." >> Yeah. I don't want to make that decision for the enterprise, I want them to determine what the best instance is based on the application that they're enabling. So I ask all my enterprise customers, "How many applications do you have in your environment?" Thousands of applications. It would be wrong for me to go dictate and say, "Well I have the answer "for every one of those applications." Instead we want to build a sophisticated platform that says look, if these are the requirements, the performance requirements, run your database in this instance and you determine if that's the best for you. If you have a legacy application that needs an underlying mainframe or relational database, that's fine. We're not asking you to forklift upgrade that. Put the database in there that's going to give you the performance and requirements you want. And so again, it's where do application developers want to stand up their application for the best performance? I'll tell you what, in the 2 1/2 years I've been at Couchbase I've sat down with Fortune 100 CIOs that have absolutely told me, "Here is our cloud strategy "with public cloud vendor number one." Come back two years later and they said, "We have shifted for X, Y, and Z reason "and we are going to public cloud vendor number two." If we had chosen one specific deployment and not given thought to how enterprises are eventually going to want to have that flexibility we would be having a very different conversation. And so when we talk about we're enterprise class, multi-cloud to edge, NoSQL database, it's giving enterprises this flexibility at a database-- >> So on that example of I went with cloud number one and then moved to cloud number two, was that a I'm stopping with cloud one going to cloud two or I'm going to move a little bit to cloud two or both? >> I think it varies depending on the CIO that you're talking to. It could be they didn't handle GDPR the way I wanted to or it could be they're not deployed in a certain geographic reason. It could be-- >> Capabilities issue. >> Capabilities. Could be business relationship. You know, I have a particular commercial relationship over here therefor I have an incentive to move here. Some of 'em have dual strategies, so I think it's very dangerous for companies like us to try to-- >> Beauty's in the eye of the beholder as I always say with cloud. You pick your cloud based on what you're trying to do. Final question, security obviously, cloud security you're seeing. Amazon just had a recent even called re:Inforce which was I think the first cloud security show, RSA, there's a bunch of other shows that go on, they're all different. But security clearly is being baked in everywhere. Kind of like data, kind of horizontally embedded, need real time, you need a lot of complexity involved. They want to make it easier. What's your view on how security is playing out for Couchbase? >> Look, it's a paramount design principle for us. And we think that to build a database for business critical applications you need to have reliability, you need to have performance, you need to have scalability, you have to have security. So it's part of how we think about every component from cloud to edge and everything in between. How do we have encryption? How do we have multi-factor authentication? How do we ensure that not just securing the data itself, but how do we give the operational controls to the database teams to orchestrate the movement of data and synchronize it in a reliable way. So absolutely important to us because it's important to our customers. >> Awesome. Matt Cain, CEO of Couchbase here inside theCUBE for CUBE conversation. Matt, I want to give you a chance to get the plug in for the company. Give the pitch if I'm a customer or prospect. Hey Couchbase I heard a little buzz. You guys got momentum going on, got good references. What's the pitch to me? >> Yeah so look, Couchbase is the only company on the planet that can make the following claim. We bring the best of NoSQL with the power and familiarity of SQL in one elegant solution from the public cloud to the edge. So let me walk through that. Our architecture was enabled for the highest performance in the world. Billions of documents. We have a customer who on a daily basis is running 8 million operations per second with less than two millisecond response time. Their business is running on Couchbase. You can't do that if you have the best data schema, the architecture for scalability, scale out, do that at high total cost of ownership. At the same time we want to bring the familiarity of programing languages that people know so that application developers don't have a big barrier to entry in deploying Couchbase. And that's where we've uniquely enabled the SQL query language for both query's, our operational analytics capability, that combination is extremely powerful. To be able to run in anyone of the public clouds, which we do via the marketplace or customers bring in their own nodes to their instances knowing that that's a changing thing per our conversation. But having a seamless integrated platform where you can run the same query in the public cloud as you can at the edge and then synchronizing that back together, that is a very powerful thing. One elegant platform we have, you know, we're a multi-model database. We can run a key-value cache, we can run a JSON database. We give you advanced querying, we give you indexing. To do that in one integrated platform no one else has thought about that and future proof their solution. Let me give you an example of how that all wraps up. One of the more innovative industries right now believe it or not, are cruise lines. And so we talk about digital transformation which is by definition customer experience. Well if you're in the cruise line business, if you're not creating a great customer experience, it's not like airline travel where you've got to get from point A to point B so you chose the best. This is I'm opting for an experience if this isn't great. so one of the most leading edge cruise lines out there has deployed Couchbase and they give every passenger a wearable. That wearable now fundamentally changes the interface between me as a passenger and the physical boat, the digital services, and the other people on the ship. And this is in a world... It's a floating device. There is no cloud, there is no cellular connections. So let's say we happen to be on the same ship. We end up at sports bar after we drop our family off, maybe we're talking databases, maybe we're talking something else. And we have beer, we have a second beer, what we don't know is that this cruise line is using our device. They know who we are, they know where we are, they're using geospatial technology back in e-commerce. They have a hypothesis that we're now friends, right? Or at least maybe we want to see each other again. Unbeknownst to us the next day we get a promotion that says 50% off at the sports bar for the next game. Wow that's great, I'm going to go. And then I run into you and it's like, "Wow, what are the chances that I run into you?" Well the chances in the old world very slim. The chances in new world very good. If I had little kids the digital content in the cabin is different. If there's a movie getting out how it navigates me around the ship is different. All of this is empowered by massive amounts of data processing, data collection and they've embedded that now in a device. Now if you're in that business and now you've got weeks worth of information on what we like, ship comes back to shore, how do you take all that information, extract it back to a cloud, improve the algorithm, start to offer different shipping option. They're literally changing the physical display of the boats to optimize customer experience. So think about that. Power of processing massive amounts of information in real time. If I'm getting a promotion and it's too late and I miss a game, does me no good. The combination of all those different data silos, right? Doing that where application developers can be agile and swift and make changes in an innovative way and stay ahead of their competition. Cloud to edge. Right? I mean that's literally a ship comes back, it goes to cloud, it enables it in this consistent... We're the only company on the planet that can do that. >> Lot of complexity involved. >> Yeah. >> Awesome. Quick plug. Are you guys hiring? What's going on with the company? What are you looking for? >> As quickly as possible. Based on our conversation earlier and your knowledge of databases, we're looking for quota carriers and engineers. So if you want to come on over we're-- >> I was thinking about the cruise ship and having a couple of beers with you watching some sports. My (mumbles) says >> Sounds like sports-- >> "Hey John's had so many beers "why don't you hit the tables?" >> Sounds like-- >> "We'll take your money." >> Sound like more a rep than an engineer. (both laughing) >> Matt, thanks for coming to theCUBE. Really appreciate it. Matt Cain, CEO of Couchbase. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by, Cohesity. >> Good morning everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. We are here in the Orange County Convention Center. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with Stu Miniman. Stu, this is Microsoft's Big Show. 26,000 people from around the globe, all descending on Orlando. This is the big infrastructure show. Thoughts, impressions, now that we're on day two of a three day show. >> Yeah, Rebecca. Last year I had this feeling that it was a little bit too much talking about the Windows 10 transition and the latest updates to Office 365. I could certainly want to make sure that we really dug in more to what's going on with Azure, what's happening in 6the developer space. Even though they do have a separate show for developers, it's Microsoft build. They actually have a huge partner show. And so, Microsoft has a lot of shows. So it's, what is this show that is decades old? And really it is the combination of Microsoft as a platform today. Satya Nadella yesterday talked about empowering the world. This morning, Scott Hanselman was in a smaller theater, talking about app devs. And he came out and he's like, "Hey, developers, isn't it a little bit early for you this morning?" Everybody's laughing. He said, "Even though we're kicking off at 9:00 a.m., Eastern." He said, "That's really early, especially for anybody coming from the West Coast." He was wearing his Will Code For Tacos shirt. And we're going to have Scott on later today, so we'll talk about that. But, where does Microsoft sit in this landscape? Is something we've had. I spent a lot of time looking at the cloud marketplace. Microsoft has put themselves as the clear number two behind AWS. But trying to figure out because SaaS is a big piece of what Microsoft does. And they have their software estate in their customer relationship. So how many of those that are what we used to call window shops. And you had Windows people are going to start, Will it be .NET? Will it be other operating systems? Will it come into Azure? Where do they play? And the answer is, Microsoft's going to play a lot of places. And what was really kind of put on with the point yesterday is, it's not just about the Microsoft solutions, it is about the ecosystem, they really haven't embraced their role, very supportive of open source. And trust is something that I know both you and I have been pointing in on because, in the big tech market, Microsoft wants to stand up and say, "We are the most trusted out there. And therefore, turn to us and we will help you through all of these journeys." >> So you're bringing up so many great points and I want to now go through each and every one of them. So, absolutely, we are hearing that this is the kinder, gentler Microsoft, we had Dave Totten on yesterday. And he was, as you just described, just talking about how much Microsoft is embracing and supporting customers who are using a little bit of Microsoft here, a little bit of other companies. I'm not going to name names, but they're seemingly demanding. I just want best to breed, and this is what I'm going to do. And Microsoft is supporting that, championing that. And, of course we're seeing this as a trend in the broader technology industry. However, it feels different, because it's Microsoft doing this. And they've been so proprietary in the past. >> Yeah, well, and Rebecca, it's our job on theCUBE actually, I'm going to name names. (laughs) And actually Microsoft is-- >> Okay. >> Embracing of this. So, the thing I'm most interested in at the show was Azure Arc. And I was trying to figure out, is this a management platform? And at the end of the day really, it is, there's Kubernetes in there, and it's specifically tied to applications. So they're going to start with databases specifically. My understanding, SQL is the first piece and saying, it sounds almost like the next incarnation of platform as a service to our past. And say, I can take this, I can put it on premises in Azure or on AWS. Any of those environments, manage all of them the same. Reminds me of what I hear from VMware with Hangzhou. Vmworld, Europe is going on right now in Barcelona. Big announcement is to the relationship with VMware on Azure. If I got it right, it's actually in beta now. So, Arc being announced and the next step of where Microsoft and VMware are going together, it is not a coincidence. They are not severing the ties with VMware. VMware, of course partners with all the cloud providers, most notably AWS. Dave Totten yesterday, talked about Red Hat. You want Kubernetes? If you want OpenShift, if you are a Red Hat customer and you've decided that, the way I'm going to leverage and use and have my applications run, are through OpenShift, Microsoft's is great. And the best, most secure place to run that environment is on Azure. So, that's great. So Microsoft, when you talk about choice, when you talk about flexibility, and you talk about agility cause, it is kinder and gentler, but Satya said they have that tech intensity. So all the latest and greatest, the new things that you want, you can get it from Microsoft, but they are also going to meet you where you are. That was Jeremiah Dooley, the Azure advocate, said that, "There's, lots of bridges we need to make, Microsoft has lots of teams. It's not just the DevOps, it's not just letting the old people do their own thing, from your virtualization through your containerization and everything in between microservices server list, and the like. Microsoft has teams, they have partners. Sure that you could buy everything in Microsoft, but they know that there are lots of partners and pieces. And between their partners, their ecosystem, their channel, and their go-to-market, they're going to pull this together to help you leverage what you need to move your business forward. >> So, next I want to talk about Scott Hanselman who was up on the main stage, we're going to have him on the show and he was as you said, adorned in coder dude, attire with a cool t-shirt and snappy kicks. But his talk was app development for everyone. And this is really Microsoft's big push, democratizing computing, hey, anyone can do this. And Satya Nadella, as we've talked about on the show. 61% of technologist's jobs are not in the technology industry. So this is something that Microsoft sees as a trend that's happening in the employment market. So they're saying, "Hey, we're going to help you out here." But Microsoft is not a hardware company. So how does this really change things for Microsoft in terms of the products and services-- >> Well right, >> It offers. >> So really what we're talking about here, we're talking about developers right? 61% of jobs openings for developers are outside the tech sector. And the high level message that Scott had is your tools, your language, your apps. And what we have is, just as we were talking about choice of clouds, it's choice of languages. Sure they'd love to say .NET is wonderful, but you want your Java, your PHP, all of these options. And chances are, not only are you going to use many of them, but even if you're working on a total solution, different groups inside your company might be using them and therefore you need tools that can spam them. The interesting example they use was Chipotle. And if there's a difference between when you're ordering and going through the delivery service, and some of the back-end pieces, and data needs to flow between them, and it can't be, "Oh wait, I've got silos of my data, I've got silos of all these other environments." So, developer tools are all about, having the company just work faster and work across environments. I was at AnsibleFest show earlier this year. And, Ansible is one of those tools that actually, different roles where you have to have the product owner, the developer, or the the operations person. They all have their way into that tool. And so, Microsoft's showing some very similar things as to, when I build something, it's not, "Oh, wait, we all chose this language." And so many of the tools was, " Okay, well, I had to standardize on something." But that didn't fit into what the organization needed. So I need to be able to get to what they all had. Just like eventually, when I'm picking my own taco, I can roll it, bowl it, soft or hard shell-- >> It was a cool analogy. >> And choose all my toppings in there. So it is Taco Tuesday here-- >> Yes. >> At Microsoft Ignite and the developers like their choices of tools, just like they like their tacos. >> And they like their extra guac. So going back to one of the other points you made at the very opening. And this is the competitive dynamic that we have here. We had David Davis and Scott Lowe on yesterday from a ActualTech Media. Scott was incredibly bullish about Microsoft. And saying it could really overtake AWS, not tomorrow, but within the next decade. Of course, the choice for JEDI certainly could accelerate that. What do you make of it? I mean, do you think that's still pie in the sky here? AWS is so far ahead. >> So look, first of all, when you look at the growth rates, first of all, just to take the actual number, we know what AWS's, revenue is. Last quarter, AWS did $9 billion. And they're still growing at about a 35% clip. When I look at Microsoft, they have their intelligent cloud bucket, which is Azure, Windows Server, SQL Server and GitHub. And that was 10.8 billion. And you say, "Oh, okay, that's really big." But last year, Azure did about $12 billion dollars. So, AWS is still two to three times larger when you look at infrastructure as a service. But SaaS hugely important piece of what's going on in the cloud opportunity. AWS really is more of the platform and infrastructure service, they absolutely have some of the PaaS pieces. Azure started out as PaaS and has this. So you're trying to count these buckets, and Azure is still growing at, last quarter was 64%. So if you look at the projection, is it possible for Azure to catch up in the next three years? Well, Azure's growth rate is also slowing down, so I don't think it matters that much. There is a number one and a number two, and they're both clear, valid choices for a customer. And, this morning at breakfast, I was talking to a customer and they are very heavily on Microsoft shop. But absolutely, they've got some AWS on the side. They're doing Azure, they've got a lot of Azure, being here at our Microsoft show. And when I go to AWS, even when I talked to the companies that are all in on AWS, " Oh, you got O 365?" "Of course we do." "Oh, if you're starting to do O 365, are there any other services that you might be using out of Azure?" "Yeah, that's possible." I know Google is in the mix. Ali Baba's in the mix. Oracle, well, we're not going to talk about Oracle Cloud, but we talked about Oracle, because they will allow their services to run on Azure specifically. We talked about that a lot yesterday, especially how that ties into JEDI. So, look, I think it is great when we have a healthy competitive marketplace. Today really, it is a two horse race. It is, AWS and Azure are the main choices for customers. Everyone else is really a niche player. Even a company like IBM, there's good solutions that they have, but they play in a multi cloud world. Google has some great data services, and absolutely a important player when you talk about multi cloud for all they've done with Kubernetes and Istio. I'm going to be at Kube Con in a couple of weeks and Google is front and center there. But if you talk about the general marketplace, Microsoft has a lot of customers, they had a lot of applications and therefore, can they continue to mature that market and grow their environment? Absolutely. AWS has so many customers, they have the marketplace is stronger. It's an area that I want to dig in a little bit more at this show is the Azure Marketplace, how much we talked about the ecosystem. But, can I just procure through the cloud and make it simpler? Big theme we've talked about is, cloud in the early days was supposed to be cheap and simple. And it is neither of those things. So, how do we make it easier, so that we can go from the 20% of applications in the public cloud, up to 50% or more? Because it is not about all everything goes to the public cloud, but making customers put the applications and their data in the right place at the right time with the right services. And then we haven't even talked about edge computing which Microsoft has a big push on, especially with their partners. We talked to HP, a little bit about that yesterday. But really the surface area that this show and Microsoft covers is immense and global. >> It is indeed, and we are going, this is our second day of three days of coverage and we're going to be getting into all of those things. We've got a lot of great guests. We have Cute Host, Keith Townsend, Dave Cahill, a former Wikibon guy, a lot of other fantastic people. So I'm excited to get it on with you today, Stu. >> Thank you, Rebecca. Great stuff. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. (upbeat music`)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, It's the Cube! Covering VM World 2019 Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners >> Hello everyone and welcome to the Cube's coverage here in San Francisco, California of the VMWorld 2019. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vellante Dave, 10 years covering VMWorld since 2010, it's been quite a ride, lot of changes. >> Dave: Sure has. >> John: We're going to do a Power Panel our format we normally do it remote guests in our Palo Alto and Boston studios in person because we're here. Why not do it? Of course, Keith Townsend, CTO Advisor friend of the Cube, Cube host sometimes and Sarbjeet Johal, cloud architect cloud expert, friends on Twitter. We're always jammin' on Twitter. So we'll have to take it to the video. Guys, thanks for joining us on the Power Panel. >> Good to see you, Gents. >> Good seein' ya. >> Good to be here. >> Yeah, I, I hope we don't come to blows, Sarbjeet. I mean we've had some passionate conversations over the past couple months. >> Yeah, Santoro, yes, yes. >> John: The activity has been at an all time high. I mean, snark aside, there's real things to talk about. >> Yes. >> I mean we are talking about VMware a software company, staying with their roots. We know what happened in 2016 The Amazon relationship cleared the air so to speak, pun intended. Vcloud air kind of goes it's way stock prices go up and to the right Yeah, fluctuations happening but still financially doing well. >> Keith: Yeah. >> Customers have clarity. They're an operate. They run, they target operators not developers. We're living in a DevOps world we talk about this all the time dev and ops this is the cloud world that they want Michael Dell was on the Cube Dell Technologies owns VMware they put Pivotal on VMware moves are being made. Keith, how do you make sense of it? What's your take? You've been on the inside. >> Well, you know, VMware has a tough time. Pat came in, 2013, we remember it. He said we are going to double down on virtualization. He is literally paying the cost for that hockey stick movement VMware has had this reputation of being an operator based company Infrastructure based, you go into accounts, you're stuck in this IT Infrastructure cells movement. VMware has done awesome over the past year. Few years, I had to eat a little crow and say that the move to eject Pivotal was the right thing for the Stock but for the reputation, VMware is stuck so Pat, what, tallied up 5 billion dollars in sales, in purchases last week to get out of this motion of being stuck in the IT Infrastructure realm Will it pay off? I think it's going to be a good conversation because they're going to need those Pivotal guys to push this PKS vision of theirs. This PKS and Kubernetes vision that they have >> Well they got to figure it out but certainly it's a software world and one of the things that's interesting we were talking before we started is, they are stuck in that operator world but it's part of DevOps, Dev and Ops. This is the world that they operate in Google's cloud shows how to do it. You got SRE's run things and developers this program infrastructure is code. This is the promise of this new generation. Sarbjeet, we talk about it all the time on Twitter developers coding away not dealing with the infrastructure, that's the goal >> Yeah, traditionally, developers never sort of mucked around with infrastructure. Gradually we are moving into where developers have to take care of infrastructure themselves the teams are like two person teams we hear that all the time. They are responsible for running the show from beginning to the end. Operations are under them, it's Dev and Ops are put together, right? But I'll speak from my own personal experience with working at VMware in the past that from all the companies which are operations focused, that's HP, IBM, and Oracle to a certain extent. So portfolio and all that. And BMC, and CA, those are pure companies in the operations space, right? I think VMware is one of those which values software a lot. So it's a purely, inside the VMware it's purely software driven. But to the outside, what they produce what they have produced in the past that's all operations, right? So I think they can move that switch because of the culture and then with Pivotal acquisition I think it will make it much easier because there's some following of the Pivotal stack, if you will the only caveat I think on that side is it is kind of a little bit of interlocking-ish, right? That is one of the fears I have. >> Who's not, even RedHat these days is, locking you in. >> Yeah, you know, I pulled some interesting stat metadata from a blog post from Paul Fazzone announcing the Pivotal acquisition. He mentioned Kubernetes 22 times. He mentioned Pivotal Cloud Foundry once. So VMware is all in on this open-shift type movement I think VMware is looking at the Red shift I mean Red OpenShift acquisition by IBM and thinking, "Man, I wish we didn't have this "Sense of relationship with Pivotal "So we could have went out and bought RedHat." >> Well that's a good point about Kubernetes, I think you're right on that. And remember, we've been covering Open Stack up until about a year ago, and they changed the name it's now something else, but I remember when Open Shift wasn't doing well. >> Keith: I do too! >> And what really was a tipping point for them was they had all the elements, but it was Kubernetes that really put them in a position to take advantage of what they were trying to do and I think you're right, I think VMware sees that, now that IBM owns RedHat and Open Shift, it's clear. But I think the vSphere deal with Project Pacific points out that they want to use Kubernetes as a distraction layer for developers, and have a developer interface to vSphere. So they get the operators with vSphere, they put Kubernetes in there and they say, "Hey developers, use us." Now I think that's a hedge also against Pivotal 'cause if that horse doesn't come across the track to the finish line, you know... >> It's definitely a hedge on Containers just a finer point of what you were saying there was a slight difference in the cash outlay for RedHat, 34 billion versus the cash outlay for Pivotal was 800 million. So they picked up an 800 million dollar asset or a 4 billion dollar asset for 2.7 billion. >> Hold on, explain that because 2.7 billion was the number we reported you're saying that VMware put out only 800 million in cash, which, what's that mean? >> That's correct. So they put out 800 million in cash to the existing shareholders of Pivotal, which is a minority of the shareholders. Michael Dell owns 70% of it, VMware owns 15% of it. So they take the public shareholders get the 800 million >> John: They get taken out, yep. >> Michael Dell gets more VMware stock, so now he owns more of VMware. VMware already owns 15% of Pivotal, so for 800 million, they get Pivotal. >> So, the VMware independent shareholders get... they get diluted. >> Right. >> Did they lose out in the deal is the question and I think the thing that most people are missing in this conversation is that Pivotal has a army of developers. Regardless of whether developers focus on PCF or Kubernetes is irrelevant. VMware has a army, a services army now that they can point towards the industry and say, "We have the chops to have "The conversation around why you should "Come to us for developing." >> So I want to come back to that but just, a good question is, Do the VMware shareholders get screwed? Near term, the stock drops, right? Which is what happens, right? Pivotal was up 77% on the day that the Dow dropped 800 points. Here's where I think it makes sense, and there are some external risks. Pivotal plus Carbon Black, the combination they shelled out 2.7 billion in cash. They're going to add a billion dollars to VMware's subscription business next year. VMware trades at 5x revenue multiple, so the shareholders will, in theory, get back 5 billion. In year two, it's going to be 3 billion that they're going to add to the subscription revenue so in theory, that's 15 billion of value added. I think that goes into the thinking, so, now, are people going to flock to VMware? Are Kubernetes developers going to flock to VMware? I mean to your point, that to me, that's the value of Pivotal is they can get VMware into the developer community. 'Cause where is VMware with developers? Nobody, no developers in this audience. >> That's true. >> What are your guys' thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I think that we have to dissect the workload of applications at the enterprise level, right? There are a variety of applications, right, from SAPs Oracles of the world those are two heavyweights in the application space. And then there's a long trail of ISVs, right. And then there's homegrown applications I think where Pivotal plays a big role is the homegrown applications. When you're shipping a lot as an ISV or within your enterprise, you're writing software you're shipping applications to the user base. It could be internal for partners, for customers, right, I think that's where Pivotal plays Pivotal is pivotal, if you will. >> I think that's a good bet too, one of the things we've been pulling the CESoEs data for when we got reinforced we started pulling CESoEs in our network, and it's interesting. They're under the gun to produce security solutions and manage the vendors and do all that stuff they're all telling us, the majority of them are telling us that they're building their own stacks internally to handle the crisis and the challenge of security, which I think's a leading indicator versus the kind of slow, slower CIO which LOVES multi-anything. Multi-vendor, control, a deal with contracts CESoEs, they don't have the DOGMA because they can't have the DOGMA. They got to deliver and they're saying, "We're going to build a stack "On one cloud. "Have a backup cloud, "I want all my developer resources "On this cloud, not fork my team "And I'm going to build a stack "And then I'm going to ship APIs "And say to my suppliers, in the RFP process, "If you support these APIs, "You could do business with us." >> Keith: So, if you don't -- >> That's kind of a cutting edge. If you don't, you can't, you can't. And that's the new normal. We're seeing it with the Jedi deal with Oracle not getting, playing 'cause they're not certified at the level that Amazon is, and you're going to start to see these new requirements emerging this is a huge point. I think that's where Pivotal could really shine not being the, quote, developer channel for VMware. I think it's more of really writing apps >> And John, I think people aren't even going to question that model. Capital One is probably the poster child for that model they actually went out and acquired a start-up, a security, a container security start up, integrated them into their operations and they still failed. Security in the cloud is hard. I think we'll get into a multi-cloud discussion this is one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of multi-cloud from an architecture perspective, but from a practical challenge, security is one of the number one challenges. >> That's a great point on Capital One in fact, that's a great example. In fact, I love to argue this point. On Twitter, I was heavily arguing this point which is, yeah, they had a breach. But that was a very low-level it's like the equivalent of a S3 bucket not being configured, right? I mean it was so trivial of a problem but still, it takes one whole-- (hearty laughing) One, one entry point for malware to get in. One entry point to get into any network where it's IOT This is the huge challenge. So the question there is, automation. Do you do the, so, again, these are the, that's a solvable problem with Capital One. What we don't know is, what has Capital One done that we don't know that they've solved? So, again, I look at that breech as pretty, obviously, major, but it was a freakin' misconfigured firewall. >> So, come back to your comments on multi-cloud. I'm inferring from what you said, and I'd love to get your opinion, Sarbjeet. That multi-cloud is not an architectural strategy. I've said this. It's kind of a symptom of multiple vendors playing but so, can multi-cloud become, because certainly VMware IBM RedHat, Google with Anthos, maybe a little bit less Microsoft but those three-- >> Dell Technologies. >> Cisco, Cisco and certainly Dell all talking about multi-cloud is the clear strategy that's where CIOs are going, you're not buying it. Will it ever become a clear strategy from an architectural standpoint? >> Multi-cloud is the NSX and I don't mean NSX in VMware NSX it's the Acura NSX of enterprise IT. The idea of owning the NSX is great it brings me into the showroom, but I am going to buy, I'm going to go over to the Honda side or I'm going to go buy the MDX or something more reasonable. Multi-cloud, the idea, sure it's possible. It's possible for me to own a NSX sports car. But it's more practical for me to be able to shop around I can go to Google via cloud simple I mean I can go via cloud simple to Azure, GCP or I can go BMC, I have options to where I land, but to say that I am going to operate across all three? That's the NSX. >> If you had a NSX sports car, by the way, to use the analogy in my mind is great one, the roads aren't open yet. So, yeah, okay great. (hearty laughing) >> Or you go to Germany and you're in California. So, the transport, and again in the applications you could build tech for good applications all you want, and they're talking about tech for good here but if it's insecure, those apps are going to create more entry points. Again, for cyber threats, for malware, so again, the security equation, and you're right is super important, and they don't have it. >> Dave: What's your thought on all (mumble)? >> Sarbjeet: I think on multi-cloud you are, when you are going to use multi-cloud you going to expand the threat surface if you will 'cause you're putting stuff at different places. But I don't think it, like as you said Dave, the multi-cloud is not more of an architectural choice, it's more like a risk mitigation strategy from the vendor point of view. Like, Amazon, who they don't compete with or who they won't compete with in the future we don't know, right? So... >> You mean within the industry. >> Yeah, within the industry right-- >> Autos or healthcare or... >> Sarbjeet: Yeah, they will, they are talking about that, right? So if you put all, all sort of all your bets on that or Azure, let's say even Azure, right? They are not in that kind of category, but still if you go with one vendor, and that's mission critical and something happens like government breaks them up or they go under, sideways, whatever, right? And then your business is stuck with them and another thing is that the whole US business, if you think about it at a global scale, like where US stands and all that stuff and even global companies are using these hourglass providers based in US, these companies are becoming like they're becoming too big to fail, right? If you put everything on one company, right, and then something happens will we bail them out? Right, will the government bail them out? Like stuff like that. Like banks became too big to fail, I think. I think from that point of view, bigger companies will shift to multi-cloud for, to hedge, right, >> Risk Mitigation >> Risk mitigation. >> Yeah, that's, okay, that's fair. >> I mean, I believe in multi-cloud in one definition only. I think, for now, the nirvana of having different workload management across utility bases, that's fantasy. >> Keith: Yeah, that's fantasy. >> I think you could probably engineer it, but there might not be a workload for that or maybe data analytics I could see moving around as a use case, certainly, but I think-- >> D-R! >> The reality is, is that all companies will probably have multiple clouds, clearly like, if you're going to run Office 365, and it's going to be on Azure, you're an Azure customer, okay. You have Azure cloud. If you're building your security stack on Amazon, and got a development team, you're on Amazon. You got two clouds. You add Google in there, big tables, great for certain things you know, Big Query, you got Google. You might even have Alibaba if you're operating in China So, again, you going to have multiple clouds the question is, the workloads define cloud selection. So, I've been on this thing, if you got a workload, an app, that app should choose its best infrastructure possible that maximizes what the outcome is. >> And John, I think what people fail to realize, that users, when you give them a set of tools, they're going to do what users do, which is, be productive. Just like users went out and took credit cards swiped it and got Amazon. If you, if in your environment you have Amazon you have GCP, you have Azure, you have Salesforce, O-365, and a user has access to all five platforms, whether or not you built a multi-cloud application a user's going to find a way to get their work done with all five, and you're going to have multi-cloud fallout because users will build data sets and workloads across that, even if IT isn't the one that designed it. >> All right, guys, final question of the Power Panel Dave, I want to include this for you too, and I'll weigh in as well. Take a minute to share what you're thinking right now is on the industry. What's taking up your attention? What's dominating your Twittershpere right now? What's the bee in your bonnet? What's the hot-button issue that you're kicking the tires on, learning about, or promoting? Sarbjeet, we'll start with you. What's on top of the mind for you these days? >> I think with talk about multi-cloud all the time, that's in discussions all the time and then Blockchain is another like slow-moving train, if you will, I think it's arriving now, and we will see some solutions coming down the pike from different, like a platformization of the Blockchain, if you will, that's happening, I think those are two actually things I keep my eyes on and how developers going to move, which side to take and then how the AWSs dominance is challenged by Microsoft and Google there's one thing I usually talk about on Twittersphere, is that there's a data gravity and there's a scales gravity, right? So people who are getting trained on Amazon, they will tend to stay with them 'cause that's, at the end of the day, it's people using technology, right? So, moving from one to another is a challenge. Whoever throws in a lot of education at the developers and operators, they will win. >> Keith, what are you gettin' excited about? >> So, CTO advisor has this theory about the data framework, or data infrastructure. Multi-cloud is the conversation about workloads going here, there, irrelevant, it's all about the data. How do I have a consistent data policy? A data protection policy, data management policy across SAS, O-365, Sales Force Workday, my IAF providers, my PATH providers, and OMPRIM, how do I move that data and make sure another data management backup company won Best of VMWorld this year. This is like the third or fourth year and a reason it's not because of backup. It's because CIOs, CDOs are concerned about this data challenge, and as much as we want to talk about multi-cloud, I think well, the industry will discover the problem isn't in Kubernetes the solution isn't in Kubernetes it's going to be one of these cool start-ups or one of these legacy vendors such as NetAp, Dell, EMC that solves that data management layer. >> All right, great stuff. My hot button is cloud 2.0 as everyone knows, I think there's new requirements that are coming out, and what got my attention is this enterprise action of VMware, the CIA deal at Amazon, the Jedi deal show that there are new requirements that our customers are driving that the vendors don't have, and that's a function that cloud providers are going to provide, and I think that's that's the canary in the coal mine. >> I've got to chime in. I've got to chime in. Sorry, Lenard, but it's the combination what excites me is the combination of data plus machine intelligence and cloud scale. A new scenario of disruption moving beyond a remote set of cloud services to a ubiquitous set of digital services powered by data that are going to disrupt every industry. That's what I get excited about. >> Guys, great Power Panel. We'll pick this up online. We'll actually get the Power Panels working out of our Palo Alto studio. If you haven't seen the Power Panels, check them out. Search Power Panels the Cube on Google, you'll see the videos. We talk about an issue, we get experts it's an editorial product. You'll see more of that online. More coverage here at VMWorld 2019 after this short break. (lively techno music)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's The Cube! Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Qualities Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody. You're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm here with my cohost Paul Gillin. And we're covering the 13th annual MIT CDOIQ conference. The Cube first started here in 2013 when the whole industry Paul, this segment of the industry was kind of moving out of the ashes of the compliance world and the data quality world and kind of that back office role, and it had this tailwind of the so called big data movement behind it. And the Chief Data Officer was emerging very strongly within as we've talked about many times in theCube, within highly regulated industries like financial services and government and healthcare and now we're seeing data professionals from all industries join this symposium at MIT as I say 13th year, and we're now seeing a lot of discussion about not only the role of the Chief Data Officer, but some of what we heard this morning from Mark Ramsey some of the failures along the way of all these north star data initiatives, and kind of what to do about it. So this conference brings together several hundred practitioners and we're going to be here for two days just unpacking all the discussions the major trends that touch on data. The data revolution, whether it's digital transformation, privacy, security, blockchain and the like. Now Paul, you've been involved in this conference for a number of years, and you've seen it evolve. You've seen that chief data officer role both emerge from the back office into a c-level executive role, and now spanning a very wide scope of responsibilities. Your thoughts? >> It's been like being part of a soap opera for the last eight years that I've been part of this conference because as you said Dave, we've gone through all of these transitions. In the early days this conference actually started as an information qualities symposium. It has evolved to become about chief data officer and really about the data as an asset to the organization. And I thought that the presentation we saw this morning, Mark Ramsey's talk, we're going to have him on later, very interesting about what they did at GlaxoSmithKline to get their arms around all of the data within that organization. Now a project like that would've unthinkable five years ago, but we've seen all of these new technologies come on board, essentially they've created a massive search engine for all of their data. We're seeing organizations beginning to get their arms around this massive problem. And along the way I say it's a soap opera because along the way we've seen failure after failure, we heard from Mark this morning that data governance is a failure too. That was news to me! All of these promising initiatives that have started and fallen flat or failed to live up to their potential, the chief data officer role has emerged out of that to finally try to get beyond these failures and really get their arms around that organizational data and it's a huge project, and it's something that we're beginning to see some organization succeed at. >> So let's talk a little bit about the role. So the chief data officer in many ways has taken a lot of the heat off the chief information officer, right? It used to be CIO stood for career is over. Well, when you throw all the data problems at an individual c-level executive, that really is a huge challenge. And so, with the cloud it's created opportunities for CIOs to actually unburden themselves of some of the crapplications and actually focus on some of the mission critical stuff that they've always been really strong at and focus their budgets there. But the chief data officer has had somewhat of an unclear scope. Different organizations have different roles and responsibilities. And there's overlap with the chief digital officer. There's a lot of emphasis on monetization whether that's increasing revenue or cutting costs. And as we heard today from the keynote speaker Mark Ramsey, a lot of the data initiatives have failed. So what's your take on that role and its viability and its longterm staying power? >> I think it's coming together. I think last year we saw the first evidence of that. I talked to a number of CDOs last year as well as some of the analysts who were at this conference, and there was pretty good clarity beginning to emerge about what they chief data officer role stood for. I think a lot of what has driven this is this digital transformation, the hot buzz word of 2019. The foundation of digital transformation is a data oriented culture. It's structuring the entire organization around data, and when you get to that point when an organization is ready to do that, then the role of the CDO I think becomes crystal clear. It's not so much just an extract transform load discipline. It's not just technology, it's not just governance. It really is getting that data, pulling that data together and putting it at the center of the organization. That's the value that the CDO can provide, I think organizations are coming around to that. >> Yeah and so we've seen over the last 10 years the decrease, the rapid decrease in cost, the cost of storage. Microprocessor performance we've talked about endlessly. And now you've got the machine intelligence piece layering in. In the early days Hadoop was the hot tech, and interesting now nobody talks even about Hadoop. Rarely. >> Yet it was discussed this morning. >> It was mentioned today. It is a fundamental component of infrastructures. >> Yeah. >> But what it did is it dramatically lowered the cost of storing data, and allowing people to leave data in place. The old adage of ship a five megabytes of code to a petabyte of data versus the reverse. Although we did hear today from Mark Ramsey that they copied all the data into a centralized location so I got some questions on that. But the point I want to make is that was really early days. We're now entered an era and it's underscored by if you look at the top five companies in terms of market cap in the US stock market, obviously Microsoft is now over a trillion. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Google and Facebook. Top five. They're data companies, their assets are all data driven. They've surpassed the banks, the energy companies, of course any manufacturing automobile companies, et cetera, et cetera. So they're data companies, and they're wrestling with big issues around security. You can't help but open the paper and see issues on security. Yesterday was the big Capital One. The Equifax issue was resolved in terms of the settlement this week, et cetera, et cetera. Facebook struggling mightily with whether or not how to deal fake news, how to deal with deep fakes. Recently it shut down likes for many Instagram accounts in some countries because they're trying to protect young people who are addicted to this. Well, they need to shut down likes for business accounts. So what kids are doing is they're moving over to the business Instagram accounts. Well when that happens, it exposes their emails automatically so they've all kinds of privacy landmines and people don't know how to deal with them. So this data explosion, while there's a lot of energy and excitement around it, brings together a lot of really sticky issues. And that falls right in the lap of the chief data officer, doesn't it? >> We're in uncharted territory and all of the examples you used are problems that we couldn't have foreseen, those companies couldn't have foreseen. A problem may be created but then the person who suffers from that problem changes their behavior and it creates new problems as you point out with kids shifting where they're going to communicate with each other. So these are all uncharted waters and I think it's got to be scary if you're a company that does have large amounts of consumer data in particular, consumer packaged goods companies for example, you're looking at what's happening to these big companies and these data breaches and you know that you're sitting on a lot of customer data yourself, and that's scary. So we may see some backlash to this from companies that were all bought in to the idea of the 360 degree customer view and having these robust data sources about each one of your customers. Turns out now that that's kind of a dangerous place to be. But to your point, these are data companies, the companies that business people look up to now, that they emulate, are companies that have data at their core. And that's not going to change, and that's certainly got to be good for the role of the CDO. >> I've often said that the enterprise data warehouse failed to live up to its expectations and its promises. And Sarbanes-Oxley basically saved EDW because reporting became a critical component post Enron. Mark Ramsey talked today about EDW failing, master data management failing as kind of a mapping and masking exercise. The enterprise data model which was a top down push for a sort of distraction layer, that failed. You had all these failures and so we turned to governance. That failed. And so you've had this series of issues. >> Let me just point out, what do all those have in common? They're all top down. >> Right. >> All top down initiatives. And what Glaxo did is turn that model on its head and left the data where it was. Went and discovered it and figured it out without actually messing with the data. That may be the difference that changes the game. >> Yeah and it's prescription was basically taking a tactical approach to that problem, start small, get quick hits. And then I think they selected a workload that was appropriate for solving this problem which was clinical trials. And I have some questions for him. And of the big things that struck me is the edge. So as you see a new emerging data coming out of the edge, how are organizations going to deal with that? Because I think a lot of what he was talking about was a lot of legacy on-prem systems and data. Think about JEDI, a story we've been following on SiliconANGLE the joint enterprise defense infrastructure. This is all about the DOD basically becoming cloud enabled. So getting data out into the field during wartime fast. We're talking about satellite data, you're talking about telemetry, analytics, AI data. A lot of distributed data at the edge bringing new challenges to how organizations are going to deal with data problems. It's a whole new realm of complexity. >> And you talk about security issues. When you have a lot of data at the edge and you're sending data to the edge, you're bringing it back in from the edge, every device in the middle is from the smart thermostat. at the edge all the way up to the cloud is a potential failure point, a potential vulnerability point. These are uncharted waters, right? We haven't had to do this on a large scale. Organizations like the DOD are going to be the ones that are going to be the leaders in figuring this out because they are so aggressive. They have such an aggressive infrastructure and place. >> The other question I had, striking question listening to Mark Ramsey this morning. Again Mark Ramsey was former data God at GSK, GlaxoSmithKline now a consultant. We're going to hear from a number of folks like him and chief data officers. But he basically kind of poopooed, he used the example of build it and they will come. You know the Kevin Costner movie Field of Dreams. Don't go after the field of dreams. So my question is, and I wonder if you can weigh in on this is, everywhere we go we hear about digital transformation. They have these big digital transformation projects, they generally are top down. Every CEO wants to get digital right. Is that the wrong approach? I want to ask Mark Ramsey that. Are they doing field of dreams type stuff? Is it going to be yet another failure of traditional legacy systems to try to compete with cloud native and born in data era companies? >> Well he mentioned this morning that the research is already showing that digital transformation most initiatives are failing. Largely because of cultural reasons not technical reasons, and I think Ramsey underscored that point this morning. It's interesting that he led off by mentioning business process reengineering which you remember was a big fad in the 1990s, companies threw billions of dollars at trying to reinvent themselves and most of them failed. Is digital transformation headed down the same path? I think so. And not because the technology isn't there, it's because creating a culture where you can break down these silos and you can get everyone oriented around a single view of the organizations data. The bigger the organization the less likely that is to happen. So what does that mean for the CDO? Well, chief information officer at one point we said the CIO stood for career is over. I wonder if there'll be a corresponding analogy for the CDOs at some of these big organizations when it becomes obvious that pulling all that data together is just not feasible. It sounds like they've done something remarkable at GSK, maybe we'll learn from that example. But not all organizations have the executive support, which was critical to what they did, or just the organizational will to organize themselves around that central data storm. >> And I also said before I think the CDO is taking a lot of heat off the CIO and again my inference was the GSK use case and workload was actually quite narrow in clinical trials and was well suited to success. So my takeaway in this, if I were CDO what I would be doing is trying to figure out okay how does data contribute to the monetization of my organization? Maybe not directly selling the data, but what data do I have that's valuable and how can I monetize that in terms of either saving money, supply chain, logistics, et cetera, et cetera, or making money? Some kind of new revenue opportunity. And I would super glue myself for the line of business executive and go after a small hit. You're talking about digital transformations being top down and largely failing. Shadow digital transformations is maybe the answer to that. Aligning with a line of business, focusing on a very narrow use case, and building successes up that way using data as the ingredient to drive value. >> And big ideas. I recently wrote about Experian which launched a service last called Boost that enables the consumers to actually impact their own credit scores by giving Experian access to their bank accounts to see that they are at better credit risk than maybe portrayed in the credit store. And something like 600,000 people signed up in the first six months of this service. That's an example I think of using inspiration, creating new ideas about how data can be applied And in the process by the way, Experian gains data that they can use in other context to better understand their consumer customers. >> So digital meets data. Data is not the new oil, data is more valuable than oil because you can use it multiple times. The same data can be put in your car or in your house. >> Wish we could do that with the oil. >> You can't do that with oil. So what does that mean? That means it creates more data, more complexity, more security risks, more privacy risks, more compliance complexity, but yet at the same time more opportunities. So we'll be breaking that down all day, Paul and myself. Two days of coverage here at MIT, hashtag MITCDOIQ. You're watching The Cube, we'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering AWS re:Inforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web services and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's the Cube's live coverage in Boston, Massachusetts for Amazon Webster's AWS re:Inforce: their first inaugural conference around security, cloud security. I'm John Furrier with my host Dave Vellante. If you're talking about security, you can not talk about cybersecurity, how it impacts government, society and commercial. We've got two great guests here from Telos, leader in cyber out of D.C. AJ Turcot, business development, and Tom Ryder, VP of commercial sales at Telos. Great to see you guys. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you, John- (A.J. talks over) >> Thanks, John, great to be here. >> I've been intrigued by Telos over the years. One, great company you guys, so congratulations. John Wood is phenomenal CEO. He's been hanging around for a long, long time. He's seen many cyber waves in security. You guys have a lot of experience. Now, we're talking about modernization of government. A week and a half ago we were at AWS Public Sector Summit which is this show in DC with Theresa Carlson's team. That's all about modernizing government, public sector, procurement, modernization in technology cloud. Here, the security conference feels the same kind of vibe for security. Not so much modernization but kind of level up, get faster, get better, get stronger. You know, everything's great, now lets go do it. So, similar kind of experience. You guys are in the middle of both those worlds. >> Yes. >> What's your impression? Are these coming together? Are they two separate? What's your impression of the show? >> Uh. It's, security is job zero. People have been saying that for a long time. The rubber's meeting the road now. You can see, this is, this wouldn't have been this big years ago. So, we're happy to be here and be part of this. Our company has been focused on cybersecurity since the word 'go'. And we're definitely seeing you can't do modernization without baking security in. Everybody gets it. It's not a bow tie any more. Wouldn't you say? >> Absolutely and it goes from the software development of the life cycle all the way up the stack. Little anecdote, John has been around for a long time. He's actually in the, and he'll hate me for saying this, but he's the longest standing CEO of a company in Virginia right now at 25 years. (laughter) We've been around for a long time. We understand cyber security and we've seen it morph as the various platforms have evolved. But, definitely a great show. A lot of vendors: some new, some old. We meet some friends that were with one that are now with another. And asking them why they changed and they say, "Well, the old school and the new school, different methodologies, different ways to approach it." But the problem fundamentally stays the same. >> Everyone else uses the old guard, uses the term 'old guard, new guard.' That's Jazzy and Theresa's word. But it really is about the transformation of that all companies are becoming security companies. They say that about media. All companies are becoming media companies. You inherently have in this horizontal impact of security. It used to be that this firms does security. You hire them and they come in, they do the job. But now, to where you got to bake it in, you start to see the brands: Microsoft, all these brands that were once software companies in general purpose areas really getting deeper into security. And then companies themselves like Capital One, Liberty Mutual, they're building out. >> Right. >> And potentially now turning it from a cost center to a revenue center. So, the model's upside down right now in a good way. What's that doing to the industry? And do you believe that it's happening then too? What do you see happening? >> The challenge in front of us right now is security has to keep up the pace and the scale of the cloud and the modern world. I know that we've had to change our tunes in our product suite to be able to, you know, test and demonstrate compliance at pace and at scale. Otherwise, you're just slowing down development. I mean, the real beauty of the cloud is, uh, the speed at which you can fail, recover, get the feedback loop, move forward and security's now at that pace and I think you'll see around here the companies that are offering that, not just a new coat of paint on a traditional offering are going to excel in this space. >> Well, this is why I like what you guys do because you talk to practitioners. They say their number one challenge is how to keep up with that pace. I mean, you could talk to one person at Amazon and no one person knows all the services or they think 'Oh, Amazon doesn't have that or oh, yes they do have that." So, having a partner like you guys to help navigate that pace of change is critical. So, how have you made that, you know, a tailwind for you guys. And what are customers telling you that they need help with? >> Uh, what we, our end of it, the piece of the elephant we touch, >> Yeah. is, um, the customers are allowed to use the cloud. They're encouraged to use the cloud. They're going to school to get trained and certified. But you can't go at this pace unless you are authorized. Right? You need permission. Nobody's allowed to put in the plug without their permission. And that's where our end of it is. And we've had to really retool to go at this cloud pace. I've been at Telos for over nineteen years and it's exciting now. And when we had the opportunity to go into the commercial side of things, I really lept at that because we're now building, you know, as I said, tooling out to keep at this pace of 'how do I test? Don't be a detractor. Don't be a slower-downer.' and, you know, it's the way we got to be. >> Take a minute to explain your product offerings for the commercial sector. What are you guys offering? What's the value proposition? >> Sure, um, our product suite is called Exacta. It's a mature product in the fed space. It's been around for nineteen years. And it's in very wide use in the fed space to operationalize their assessment and authorization: the NIST risk management framework. We're now seeing NIST cybersecurity standards are getting a lot of traction in spaces outside the fed. If you're a software company like we see around here, you want to business in the fed, you got to get a fed ramp authorization. Exacta's tooled to do that now. We're seeing state and local government embracing NIST cybersecurity standards. The defense industrial base has NIST 800-171. It's built into the defense acquisition regulations. You need to corporately meet these security controls. So, you know, it's not just for an agency on its own anymore. Everyone's getting in the game. >> So those standards are moving to commercial? >> Yes. >> You guys were baked out, bulletproof hardened product you're bringing that into commercial? >> And I would say if you take spreadsheets off the table, Exacta is the number one NIST cybersecurity automation and management platform. >> Yes. >> Spreadsheets will always be number one. It's like- >> Spread sheets are dead sheets >> Other than the pie chart. (mumbling) >> Right, right. >> So, you know, it used to be, and I'm wondering if it still is, the public sector would look to the commercial for sort of best practice, they might be a little slower to adopt things, and there's certainly examples of that today. You see Theresa at public sector announces something that maybe Amazon announced a year ago and now it's available public sector. But the cloud feels a little bit different. You've had cloud first mandates, things like Jedi. Is that trend changing? You just sort of gave us an example where certification's bringing that up to commercial, Is there still a wide gap between commercial adoption and public sector adoption? >> Well, I think one thing that we see is a lot of commercial or government entities built data centers because they had to. Right? Now, you see entities that have, you know, big robust data center infrastructure, they like what they do in there but not necessarily keeping up that data center. So, they're looking, they're all going to the cloud in varying degrees of speed. But nobody wants to be in the data center business like they used to. >> Charles Phillips from Infor says, 'friends don't let friends build data centers." >> Data centers, right. (laughter) >> That's right. AJ, how about some customer use cases and examples where you guys are helping them? What's their challenge? Give us some real-world experiences. >> Sure, sure. So, one of the industries that's highly regulated is financial industry. And, you know, we talk about healthcare with HIPAA, and different regulations. But in financials, they're really hit from regulatory bodies throughout the country. And they can change from state to state and a lot of times it just piles on top. So, one of the main issues that these companies face is audit fatigue. Internal audit teams to make sure they're compliant, external audit requests that come in, and they're really looking for a way to reduce this audit fatigue. One of the ways of doing it is to operationalize as we do with out tool, the systems internally to make sure that you can be compliant and, I'll throw out a phrase here, we believe strongly that you apply good cybersecurity hygiene, a byproduct of that will be compliance. So if foundationally things are good and you're taken care of cybersecurity from the get go, you know, you might have to tweak a few things to demonstrate compliance but you will be able to comply to many different regulatory products. >> So being built in from the beginning. >> Being baked in, right. So, what this particular organization, they've been around for a hundred years, they're in the financial sector, they've got a lot of regulations and state to state, as I mentioned, are different, they were really looking, and they use all the tools, they've got them all. They have data centers. They have one of the largest networks outside of the defense in the country. So they're quite big. And they were really feeling this audit fatigue. Eight hundred auditors working day in and day out to get, to meet these requirements are thrown at them. We're able to help them take the process from months to weeks. So, just there, there's an economy of time as well. So, the resources can really go off and do what their mission is without having to, you know, daily deal with the grind of going through spreadsheets, for example. >> Yeah. >> And the different systems. >> Do you, do you discern any patterns in terms of can you get more specific on what they're doing with that freed up budget or the digital transformation. Are they developing apps? Are they retraining people? How, how are they dealing with that? >> Sure. In this particular case, a lot of training internally. And it's like moving a cruise ship, you know? >> Yeah. >> It doesn't turn on a dime so you have direction on the top. They take primary focus might change and they have study groups. Interesting about them is they don't make, they make group decisions. So, they do, they're very big on data analytics. They're all actuaries I guess and they're used to that. And they want to look at the value. And I think that's something that we see. That's a tendency we see throughout all the different industries we work with. The demonstration of value. So, it might be neat. It might be fun. It might be more secure, less secure. Do we accept the risk? What value does that bring to the organization? And what they've done through training, through trying to change the old guard, you know, it's also reorganizing their systems internally and how they do things. Not just tools. >> So you guys got to love the fact that Amazon decided to have a security focused show. I mean, every show Amazon does is security focused but dedicated. (mumbles) You were mentioning the other day that, you know, a lot of partners here, a lot of vendors, but actually it's very attendee heavy event. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> This is now like a huge COMDEX show floor. A lot of practitioners, sec ops guys, >> Yes. >> You know, developers. What are your thoughts on why Amazon did this? And your reaction to this. >> Well, Amazon has, you know, like we said, security is job zero for everyone at Amazon. They put their money where their mouth is. This was not an experiment. This was an eventuality. And, you know, there's zero doubt they're going continue to do this year on, year round. It's going to get bigger. >> Houston next year. >> Houston. >> Kind of an interesting choice: Houston. >> Yeah. >> It's going to be hot in June. >> Stay in the air conditioning. (lauging) >> I wish they'd stay in Boston. >> Yeah. >> I like Boston. >> I like Boston, too. >> Better than Houston. >> Yes. >> But the show is to your point, some dev ops and sec ops. So, again, there's bus dev folks here. >> Yep. >> You got geeks here. Not a lot of CEOs of big companies because it's not a glam converse. There's no big fanfare announcements. The announcements are pretty meaty: VPC traffic mirroring huge announcement, security you have general ability, not a surprise, but just smaller announcements. >> A lot of CSOs obviously. >> A lot of CSOs. >> Yeah, I'd say CSO in that vertical down. >> Yeah. >> The CSO, this is CSOs cloud security show. A lot of things getting invested in. Seems to be heavy activity. >> So, going into this when it was announced, you know, AJ and I had our hands up right away saing, "Let's do this." And then we get here and we're like 'okay, is this going to be a direct hit for us?' and I wouldn't say that everyone we talk to's a direct hit, but everyone that comes by the booth has some understanding of what we do. And there's been no wasted time. We're having a lot of good conversations. >> They're right where you guys are. They know what you do, the value to them. >> Right. >> All right, so here's a question for you on the show, given that you guys have this perspective so many years at Telos and cyber, shipping a great product, now commercial's changing cloud scale, cloud security, what do you think the most important stories are that should be told? That the media should be telling? Or maybe they are telling and need to be amplified. Or isn't being told that should be told. What are the top stories coming out of this event and this industry right now that should be told? >> I think that the two trends I'm seeing is that, like we said before, um, building and maintaining data centers is not, it's not cool anymore. And you see the trends of all these entities getting out from under that and they might be making a big commitment to the cloud or phasing out their data centers over time, but that is happening. And I want to read more about it because that helps us, you know, target who's going to be most receptive to our message. And then the other thing, like we said before, the security at scale and at pace. I know we've had to retool for it. The other companies here that are built for that are going to succeed. >> Yeah. >> There's an appetite for that. >> AJ, anything to add on that? >> Good point. No, very good point. At scale and to be able to pivot quickly and someone mentioned before to be able to fail, retool, start again. >> Yep. >> But to have, it's really essential to have security baked in. That confidentiality, integrity, availability of data, you know, the basics. >> You guys have partnered well with Amazon in the public sector now you're in commercial. Not a lot has changed. Amazon is still Amazon. Question for you is what are you guys think about what the opportunity is to differentiate is? You guys have your solution: speed and scale. Totally agree? (agreement) Size, speed, scale. You guys take the benefits of that by partnering with Amazon. But as it gets bigger and bigger, you guys still have to differentiate help customers. >> Yeah. >> How, how, what is the formula for success? You don't just do things, do a relationship saying "we're done" now collect the business. They're moving so fast that if you don't iterate on top of it you die seems to be the playbook. What do you guys think the value for ecosystem partners, the formula to be successful, what does that, what does that formula for, with an eighth of this cloud scale? >> Well, you know, everyone would just love to hitch your partner wagon to a, you know, something that's rising and not do a lot of work. But, that's not the way we roll. I think we get in a great partnership with Amazon because we have a lot of similarities, especially the customer obsession. You know, we want the customer to be successful and we ride along on that train. That's how we're successful. >> Great. Well, guys, congratulations, great to see you here. >> Likewise. >> It'll be a good journey. Cube's kicking off their security coverage at this event. Obviously cloud security changing the game. >> Yep. >> And it's got to level up with dev ops, agility. You guys have been doing. Thanks for sharing your insights. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> It was terrific. >> Cube coverage continues here in Boston for AWS: reInforce. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay tuned for more coverage after this short break. (digital music)