>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, It's the Cube! Covering VM World 2019 Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners >> Hello everyone and welcome to the Cube's coverage here in San Francisco, California of the VMWorld 2019. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vellante Dave, 10 years covering VMWorld since 2010, it's been quite a ride, lot of changes. >> Dave: Sure has. >> John: We're going to do a Power Panel our format we normally do it remote guests in our Palo Alto and Boston studios in person because we're here. Why not do it? Of course, Keith Townsend, CTO Advisor friend of the Cube, Cube host sometimes and Sarbjeet Johal, cloud architect cloud expert, friends on Twitter. We're always jammin' on Twitter. So we'll have to take it to the video. Guys, thanks for joining us on the Power Panel. >> Good to see you, Gents. >> Good seein' ya. >> Good to be here. >> Yeah, I, I hope we don't come to blows, Sarbjeet. I mean we've had some passionate conversations over the past couple months. >> Yeah, Santoro, yes, yes. >> John: The activity has been at an all time high. I mean, snark aside, there's real things to talk about. >> Yes. >> I mean we are talking about VMware a software company, staying with their roots. We know what happened in 2016 The Amazon relationship cleared the air so to speak, pun intended. Vcloud air kind of goes it's way stock prices go up and to the right Yeah, fluctuations happening but still financially doing well. >> Keith: Yeah. >> Customers have clarity. They're an operate. They run, they target operators not developers. We're living in a DevOps world we talk about this all the time dev and ops this is the cloud world that they want Michael Dell was on the Cube Dell Technologies owns VMware they put Pivotal on VMware moves are being made. Keith, how do you make sense of it? What's your take? You've been on the inside. >> Well, you know, VMware has a tough time. Pat came in, 2013, we remember it. He said we are going to double down on virtualization. He is literally paying the cost for that hockey stick movement VMware has had this reputation of being an operator based company Infrastructure based, you go into accounts, you're stuck in this IT Infrastructure cells movement. VMware has done awesome over the past year. Few years, I had to eat a little crow and say that the move to eject Pivotal was the right thing for the Stock but for the reputation, VMware is stuck so Pat, what, tallied up 5 billion dollars in sales, in purchases last week to get out of this motion of being stuck in the IT Infrastructure realm Will it pay off? I think it's going to be a good conversation because they're going to need those Pivotal guys to push this PKS vision of theirs. This PKS and Kubernetes vision that they have >> Well they got to figure it out but certainly it's a software world and one of the things that's interesting we were talking before we started is, they are stuck in that operator world but it's part of DevOps, Dev and Ops. This is the world that they operate in Google's cloud shows how to do it. You got SRE's run things and developers this program infrastructure is code. This is the promise of this new generation. Sarbjeet, we talk about it all the time on Twitter developers coding away not dealing with the infrastructure, that's the goal >> Yeah, traditionally, developers never sort of mucked around with infrastructure. Gradually we are moving into where developers have to take care of infrastructure themselves the teams are like two person teams we hear that all the time. They are responsible for running the show from beginning to the end. Operations are under them, it's Dev and Ops are put together, right? But I'll speak from my own personal experience with working at VMware in the past that from all the companies which are operations focused, that's HP, IBM, and Oracle to a certain extent. So portfolio and all that. And BMC, and CA, those are pure companies in the operations space, right? I think VMware is one of those which values software a lot. So it's a purely, inside the VMware it's purely software driven. But to the outside, what they produce what they have produced in the past that's all operations, right? So I think they can move that switch because of the culture and then with Pivotal acquisition I think it will make it much easier because there's some following of the Pivotal stack, if you will the only caveat I think on that side is it is kind of a little bit of interlocking-ish, right? That is one of the fears I have. >> Who's not, even RedHat these days is, locking you in. >> Yeah, you know, I pulled some interesting stat metadata from a blog post from Paul Fazzone announcing the Pivotal acquisition. He mentioned Kubernetes 22 times. He mentioned Pivotal Cloud Foundry once. So VMware is all in on this open-shift type movement I think VMware is looking at the Red shift I mean Red OpenShift acquisition by IBM and thinking, "Man, I wish we didn't have this "Sense of relationship with Pivotal "So we could have went out and bought RedHat." >> Well that's a good point about Kubernetes, I think you're right on that. And remember, we've been covering Open Stack up until about a year ago, and they changed the name it's now something else, but I remember when Open Shift wasn't doing well. >> Keith: I do too! >> And what really was a tipping point for them was they had all the elements, but it was Kubernetes that really put them in a position to take advantage of what they were trying to do and I think you're right, I think VMware sees that, now that IBM owns RedHat and Open Shift, it's clear. But I think the vSphere deal with Project Pacific points out that they want to use Kubernetes as a distraction layer for developers, and have a developer interface to vSphere. So they get the operators with vSphere, they put Kubernetes in there and they say, "Hey developers, use us." Now I think that's a hedge also against Pivotal 'cause if that horse doesn't come across the track to the finish line, you know... >> It's definitely a hedge on Containers just a finer point of what you were saying there was a slight difference in the cash outlay for RedHat, 34 billion versus the cash outlay for Pivotal was 800 million. So they picked up an 800 million dollar asset or a 4 billion dollar asset for 2.7 billion. >> Hold on, explain that because 2.7 billion was the number we reported you're saying that VMware put out only 800 million in cash, which, what's that mean? >> That's correct. So they put out 800 million in cash to the existing shareholders of Pivotal, which is a minority of the shareholders. Michael Dell owns 70% of it, VMware owns 15% of it. So they take the public shareholders get the 800 million >> John: They get taken out, yep. >> Michael Dell gets more VMware stock, so now he owns more of VMware. VMware already owns 15% of Pivotal, so for 800 million, they get Pivotal. >> So, the VMware independent shareholders get... they get diluted. >> Right. >> Did they lose out in the deal is the question and I think the thing that most people are missing in this conversation is that Pivotal has a army of developers. Regardless of whether developers focus on PCF or Kubernetes is irrelevant. VMware has a army, a services army now that they can point towards the industry and say, "We have the chops to have "The conversation around why you should "Come to us for developing." >> So I want to come back to that but just, a good question is, Do the VMware shareholders get screwed? Near term, the stock drops, right? Which is what happens, right? Pivotal was up 77% on the day that the Dow dropped 800 points. Here's where I think it makes sense, and there are some external risks. Pivotal plus Carbon Black, the combination they shelled out 2.7 billion in cash. They're going to add a billion dollars to VMware's subscription business next year. VMware trades at 5x revenue multiple, so the shareholders will, in theory, get back 5 billion. In year two, it's going to be 3 billion that they're going to add to the subscription revenue so in theory, that's 15 billion of value added. I think that goes into the thinking, so, now, are people going to flock to VMware? Are Kubernetes developers going to flock to VMware? I mean to your point, that to me, that's the value of Pivotal is they can get VMware into the developer community. 'Cause where is VMware with developers? Nobody, no developers in this audience. >> That's true. >> What are your guys' thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I think that we have to dissect the workload of applications at the enterprise level, right? There are a variety of applications, right, from SAPs Oracles of the world those are two heavyweights in the application space. And then there's a long trail of ISVs, right. And then there's homegrown applications I think where Pivotal plays a big role is the homegrown applications. When you're shipping a lot as an ISV or within your enterprise, you're writing software you're shipping applications to the user base. It could be internal for partners, for customers, right, I think that's where Pivotal plays Pivotal is pivotal, if you will. >> I think that's a good bet too, one of the things we've been pulling the CESoEs data for when we got reinforced we started pulling CESoEs in our network, and it's interesting. They're under the gun to produce security solutions and manage the vendors and do all that stuff they're all telling us, the majority of them are telling us that they're building their own stacks internally to handle the crisis and the challenge of security, which I think's a leading indicator versus the kind of slow, slower CIO which LOVES multi-anything. Multi-vendor, control, a deal with contracts CESoEs, they don't have the DOGMA because they can't have the DOGMA. They got to deliver and they're saying, "We're going to build a stack "On one cloud. "Have a backup cloud, "I want all my developer resources "On this cloud, not fork my team "And I'm going to build a stack "And then I'm going to ship APIs "And say to my suppliers, in the RFP process, "If you support these APIs, "You could do business with us." >> Keith: So, if you don't -- >> That's kind of a cutting edge. If you don't, you can't, you can't. And that's the new normal. We're seeing it with the Jedi deal with Oracle not getting, playing 'cause they're not certified at the level that Amazon is, and you're going to start to see these new requirements emerging this is a huge point. I think that's where Pivotal could really shine not being the, quote, developer channel for VMware. I think it's more of really writing apps >> And John, I think people aren't even going to question that model. Capital One is probably the poster child for that model they actually went out and acquired a start-up, a security, a container security start up, integrated them into their operations and they still failed. Security in the cloud is hard. I think we'll get into a multi-cloud discussion this is one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of multi-cloud from an architecture perspective, but from a practical challenge, security is one of the number one challenges. >> That's a great point on Capital One in fact, that's a great example. In fact, I love to argue this point. On Twitter, I was heavily arguing this point which is, yeah, they had a breach. But that was a very low-level it's like the equivalent of a S3 bucket not being configured, right? I mean it was so trivial of a problem but still, it takes one whole-- (hearty laughing) One, one entry point for malware to get in. One entry point to get into any network where it's IOT This is the huge challenge. So the question there is, automation. Do you do the, so, again, these are the, that's a solvable problem with Capital One. What we don't know is, what has Capital One done that we don't know that they've solved? So, again, I look at that breech as pretty, obviously, major, but it was a freakin' misconfigured firewall. >> So, come back to your comments on multi-cloud. I'm inferring from what you said, and I'd love to get your opinion, Sarbjeet. That multi-cloud is not an architectural strategy. I've said this. It's kind of a symptom of multiple vendors playing but so, can multi-cloud become, because certainly VMware IBM RedHat, Google with Anthos, maybe a little bit less Microsoft but those three-- >> Dell Technologies. >> Cisco, Cisco and certainly Dell all talking about multi-cloud is the clear strategy that's where CIOs are going, you're not buying it. Will it ever become a clear strategy from an architectural standpoint? >> Multi-cloud is the NSX and I don't mean NSX in VMware NSX it's the Acura NSX of enterprise IT. The idea of owning the NSX is great it brings me into the showroom, but I am going to buy, I'm going to go over to the Honda side or I'm going to go buy the MDX or something more reasonable. Multi-cloud, the idea, sure it's possible. It's possible for me to own a NSX sports car. But it's more practical for me to be able to shop around I can go to Google via cloud simple I mean I can go via cloud simple to Azure, GCP or I can go BMC, I have options to where I land, but to say that I am going to operate across all three? That's the NSX. >> If you had a NSX sports car, by the way, to use the analogy in my mind is great one, the roads aren't open yet. So, yeah, okay great. (hearty laughing) >> Or you go to Germany and you're in California. So, the transport, and again in the applications you could build tech for good applications all you want, and they're talking about tech for good here but if it's insecure, those apps are going to create more entry points. Again, for cyber threats, for malware, so again, the security equation, and you're right is super important, and they don't have it. >> Dave: What's your thought on all (mumble)? >> Sarbjeet: I think on multi-cloud you are, when you are going to use multi-cloud you going to expand the threat surface if you will 'cause you're putting stuff at different places. But I don't think it, like as you said Dave, the multi-cloud is not more of an architectural choice, it's more like a risk mitigation strategy from the vendor point of view. Like, Amazon, who they don't compete with or who they won't compete with in the future we don't know, right? So... >> You mean within the industry. >> Yeah, within the industry right-- >> Autos or healthcare or... >> Sarbjeet: Yeah, they will, they are talking about that, right? So if you put all, all sort of all your bets on that or Azure, let's say even Azure, right? They are not in that kind of category, but still if you go with one vendor, and that's mission critical and something happens like government breaks them up or they go under, sideways, whatever, right? And then your business is stuck with them and another thing is that the whole US business, if you think about it at a global scale, like where US stands and all that stuff and even global companies are using these hourglass providers based in US, these companies are becoming like they're becoming too big to fail, right? If you put everything on one company, right, and then something happens will we bail them out? Right, will the government bail them out? Like stuff like that. Like banks became too big to fail, I think. I think from that point of view, bigger companies will shift to multi-cloud for, to hedge, right, >> Risk Mitigation >> Risk mitigation. >> Yeah, that's, okay, that's fair. >> I mean, I believe in multi-cloud in one definition only. I think, for now, the nirvana of having different workload management across utility bases, that's fantasy. >> Keith: Yeah, that's fantasy. >> I think you could probably engineer it, but there might not be a workload for that or maybe data analytics I could see moving around as a use case, certainly, but I think-- >> D-R! >> The reality is, is that all companies will probably have multiple clouds, clearly like, if you're going to run Office 365, and it's going to be on Azure, you're an Azure customer, okay. You have Azure cloud. If you're building your security stack on Amazon, and got a development team, you're on Amazon. You got two clouds. You add Google in there, big tables, great for certain things you know, Big Query, you got Google. You might even have Alibaba if you're operating in China So, again, you going to have multiple clouds the question is, the workloads define cloud selection. So, I've been on this thing, if you got a workload, an app, that app should choose its best infrastructure possible that maximizes what the outcome is. >> And John, I think what people fail to realize, that users, when you give them a set of tools, they're going to do what users do, which is, be productive. Just like users went out and took credit cards swiped it and got Amazon. If you, if in your environment you have Amazon you have GCP, you have Azure, you have Salesforce, O-365, and a user has access to all five platforms, whether or not you built a multi-cloud application a user's going to find a way to get their work done with all five, and you're going to have multi-cloud fallout because users will build data sets and workloads across that, even if IT isn't the one that designed it. >> All right, guys, final question of the Power Panel Dave, I want to include this for you too, and I'll weigh in as well. Take a minute to share what you're thinking right now is on the industry. What's taking up your attention? What's dominating your Twittershpere right now? What's the bee in your bonnet? What's the hot-button issue that you're kicking the tires on, learning about, or promoting? Sarbjeet, we'll start with you. What's on top of the mind for you these days? >> I think with talk about multi-cloud all the time, that's in discussions all the time and then Blockchain is another like slow-moving train, if you will, I think it's arriving now, and we will see some solutions coming down the pike from different, like a platformization of the Blockchain, if you will, that's happening, I think those are two actually things I keep my eyes on and how developers going to move, which side to take and then how the AWSs dominance is challenged by Microsoft and Google there's one thing I usually talk about on Twittersphere, is that there's a data gravity and there's a scales gravity, right? So people who are getting trained on Amazon, they will tend to stay with them 'cause that's, at the end of the day, it's people using technology, right? So, moving from one to another is a challenge. Whoever throws in a lot of education at the developers and operators, they will win. >> Keith, what are you gettin' excited about? >> So, CTO advisor has this theory about the data framework, or data infrastructure. Multi-cloud is the conversation about workloads going here, there, irrelevant, it's all about the data. How do I have a consistent data policy? A data protection policy, data management policy across SAS, O-365, Sales Force Workday, my IAF providers, my PATH providers, and OMPRIM, how do I move that data and make sure another data management backup company won Best of VMWorld this year. This is like the third or fourth year and a reason it's not because of backup. It's because CIOs, CDOs are concerned about this data challenge, and as much as we want to talk about multi-cloud, I think well, the industry will discover the problem isn't in Kubernetes the solution isn't in Kubernetes it's going to be one of these cool start-ups or one of these legacy vendors such as NetAp, Dell, EMC that solves that data management layer. >> All right, great stuff. My hot button is cloud 2.0 as everyone knows, I think there's new requirements that are coming out, and what got my attention is this enterprise action of VMware, the CIA deal at Amazon, the Jedi deal show that there are new requirements that our customers are driving that the vendors don't have, and that's a function that cloud providers are going to provide, and I think that's that's the canary in the coal mine. >> I've got to chime in. I've got to chime in. Sorry, Lenard, but it's the combination what excites me is the combination of data plus machine intelligence and cloud scale. A new scenario of disruption moving beyond a remote set of cloud services to a ubiquitous set of digital services powered by data that are going to disrupt every industry. That's what I get excited about. >> Guys, great Power Panel. We'll pick this up online. We'll actually get the Power Panels working out of our Palo Alto studio. If you haven't seen the Power Panels, check them out. Search Power Panels the Cube on Google, you'll see the videos. We talk about an issue, we get experts it's an editorial product. You'll see more of that online. More coverage here at VMWorld 2019 after this short break. (lively techno music)