(bright upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to the live CUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for in-person AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE two sets, live wall to wall coverage, all scopes of the hybrid events. Well, great stuff online. That was too much information to consume, but ultimately as usual, great show of new innovation for startups and for large enterprises. We've got a great guest, Paul Duffy head of startups Solutions Architecture for North America for Amazon Web Services. Paul, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Hi John, good to be here. >> So we saw you last night, we were chatting kind of about the show in general, but also about start ups. Everyone knows I'm a big startup fan and big founder myself, and we talk, I'm pro startups, everyone loves startups. Amazon, the first real customers were developers doing startups. And we know the big unicorns out there now all started on AWS. So Amazon was like a dream for the startup because before Amazon, you had to provision the server, you put in the Colo, you need a system administrator, welcome to EC2. Goodness is there, the rest is history. >> Yeah. >> The legacy and the startups is pretty deep. >> Yeah, you made the right point. I've done it myself. I co-founded a startup in about 2007, 2008. And before we even knew whether we had any kind of product market fit, we were racking the servers and doing all that kind of stuff. So yeah, completely changed it. >> And it's hard too with the new technology now finding someone to actually, I remember when we stood with our first Hadoop and we ran a solar search engine. I couldn't even find anyone to manage it. Because if you knew Hadoop back then, you were working at Facebook or Hyperscaler. So you guys have all this technology coming out, so provisioning and doing the heavy lifting for start is a huge win. That's kind of known, everyone knows that. So that's cool. What are you guys doing now because now you've got large enterprises trying to beat like startups. You got startups coming in with huge white spaces out there in the market. Jerry Chen from Greylock, and it was only yesterday we talked extensively about the net new opportunities in the Cloud that are out there. And now you see companies like Goldman Sachs have super cloud. So there's tons of growth. >> Paul: Yeah. >> Take us through the white space. How do you guys see startups taking advantage of AWS to a whole another level. >> And I think it's very interesting when you look at how things have changed in those kind of 15 years. The old world's horrible, you had to do all this provisioning. And then with AWS, Adam Szalecki was talking in his keynote on the first day of the event where people used to think it was just good for startups. Now for startups, it was this kind of obvious thing because they didn't have any legacy, they didn't have any data centers, they didn't have necessarily a large team and be able to do this thing with no commitment. Spin up a server with an API call was really the revolutionary thing. In that time, 15 years later, startups still have the same kind of urgency. They're constrained by time, they're constrained by money, they're constrained by the engineering talent they have. When you hear some of the announcements this week, or you look what is kind of the building blocks available to those startups. That I think is where it's become revolutionary. So you take a startup in 2011, 2012, and they were trying to build something maybe they were trying to do image recognition on forms for example, and they could build that. But they had to build the whole thing in the cloud. We had infrastructure, we had database stuff, but they would have to do all of the kind of the stuff on top of that. Now you look at some of the kind of the AIML services we have things like Textract, and they could just take that service off the shelf. We've got one startup in Canada called Chisel AI. They're trying to disrupt the insurance industry, and they could just use these services like text extracts to just accelerate them getting into that product market fit instead of having to do this undifferentiated (indistinct). >> Paul, we talk about, I remember back in the day when Web Services and service oriented architecture, building blocks, decoupling APIs, all that's now so real and so excellent, but you brought up a great point, Glue layers had to be built. Now you have with the scale of Amazon Web Services, things we're learning from other companies. It reminds me of the open source vibe where you stand on the shoulders of others to get success. And there's a lot of new things coming out that startups don't have to do because startup before then did. This is like a new, cool thing. It's a whole nother level. >> Yeah, and I think it's a real standing on the shoulders of giants kind of thing. And if you just unpick, like in Verna's announcement this morning, his key to this one, he was talking about the Amplify Studio kind of stuff. And if you think about the before and after for that, front-end developers have had to do this stuff for a long period of time. And in the before version, they would have to do all that kind of integration work, which isn't really what they want to spend that time doing. And now they've kind of got that headstart. Andy Jassy famously would say, when he talked about building AWS, that there is no compression algorithm for experience. I like to kind of misuse that phrase for what we try to do for startups is provide these compression algorithms. So instead of having say, hire a larger engineering team to just do this kind of crafty stuff, they can just take the thing and kind of get from naught to 60 (indistinct). >> Gives some examples today of where this is playing out in real time. What kinds of new compression algorithms can startups leverage that they couldn't get before what's new that's available? >> I think you see it across all parts of the stack. I mean, you could just take it out of a database thing, like in the old days, if you wanted to start, and you had the dream that every startup has, of getting to kind of hyper scale where things bursting that seems is the problem. If you wanted to do that in the database layer back in the day, you would probably have to provision most of that database stuff yourself. And then when you get to some kind of limiting factor, you've got to do that work where all you're really wanting to do is try and add more features to your application. Or whether you've got services like Aurora where that will do all of that kind of scaling from a storage point of view. And it gives that startup the way to stand on the shoulders of giants, all the same kind of thing. You want to do some kind of identity, say you're doing a kind of a dog walking marketplace or something like that. So one of the things that you need to do for the kind of the payments thing is some kind of identity verification. In the old days, you would have to have gone pulled all those premises together to do the stuff that would look at people's ID and so on. Now, people can take things like Textracts for example, to look at those forms and do that kind of stuff. And you can kind of pick that story in all of these different stream lines whether it's compute stuff, whether it's database, whether it's high-level AIML stuff, whether it's stuff like amplify, which just massively compresses that timeframe for the startup. >> So, first of all, I'm totally loving this 'cause this is just an example of how evolution works. But if I'm a startup, one of the big things I would think about, and you're a founder, you know this, opportunity recognition is one thing, opportunity capture is another. So moving fast is what nimble startups do. Maybe there's a little bit of technical debt. There maybe a little bit of model debt, but they can get beach head quickly. Startups can move fast, that's the benefit. So where do I learn if I'm a startup founder about where all these pieces are? Is there a place that you guys are providing? Is there use cases where founders can just come in and get the best of the best composable cloud? How do I stand up something quickly to get going that I could regain and refactor later, but not take on too much technical debt or just actually have new building blocks. Where are all these tools? >> I'm really glad you asked that one. So, I mean, first startups is the core of what everyone in my team does. And most of the people we hire, well, they all have a passion for startups. Some have been former founders, some have been former CTOs, some have come to the passion from a different kind of thing. And they understand the needs of startups. And when you started to talk about technical debt, one of the balances that startups have always got to get right, is you're not building for 10 years down the line. You're building to get yourself often to the next milestone to get the next set of customers, for example. And so we're not trying to do the sort of the perfect anonymity of good things. >> I (indistinct) conception of startups. You don't need that, you just got to get the marketplace. >> Yeah, and how we try to do that is we've got a program called Activate and Activate gives startup founders either things like AWS credits up to a hundred thousand dollars in credits. It gives them other technical capabilities as well. So we have a part of the console, the management console called the Activate Console people can go there. And again, if you're trying to build a backend API, there is something that is built on AWS capability to be launched recently that basically says here's some templatized stuff for you to go from kind of naught to 60 and that kind of thing. So you don't have to spend time searching the web. And for us, we're taking that because we've been there before with a bunch of other startups, so we're trying to help. >> Okay, so how do you guys, I mean, a zillion startups, I mean, you and I could be in a coffee shop somewhere, hey, let's do a startup. Do I get access, does everyone gets access to this program that you have? Or is it an elite thing? Is there a criteria? Is it just, you guys are just out there fostering and evangelizing brilliant tools. Is there a program? How do you guys- >> It's a program. >> How do you guys vet startup's, is there? >> It's a program. It has different levels in terms of benefits. So at the core of it it's open to anybody. So if you were a bootstrap startup tomorrow, or today, you can go to the Activate website and you can sign up for that self-starting tier. What we also do is we have an extensive set of connections with the community, so T1 accelerators and incubators, venture capital firms, the kind of places where startups are going to build and via the relationships with those folks. If you're in one, if you've kind of got investment from a top tier VC firm for example, you may be eligible for a hundred thousand dollars of credit. So some of it depends on where the stock is up, but the overall program is open to all. And a chunk of the stuff we talked about like the guidance that's there for everybody. >> It's free, that's free and that's cool. That's good learning, so yeah. And then they get the free training. What's the coolest thing that you're doing right now that startups should know about around obviously the passionate start ups. I know for a fact at 80%, I can say that I've heard Andy and Adam both say that it's not just enterprising, well, they still love the startups. That's their bread and butter too. >> Yeah, well, (indistinct) I think it's amazing that someone, we were talking about the keynote you see some of these large customers in Adam's keynote to people like United Airlines, very, very large successful enterprise. And if you just look around this show, there's a lot of startups just on this expert floor that we are now. And when I look at these announcements, to me, the thing that just gets me excited and keeps me staying doing this job is all of these little capabilities make it in the environment right now with a good funding environment and all of these technical building blocks that instead of having to take a few, your basic compute and storage, once you have all of these higher and higher levels things, you know the serverless stuff that was announced in Adam's keynotes early, which is just making it easy. Because if you're a founder, you have an idea, you know the thing that you want to disrupt. And we're letting people do that in different ways. I'll pick one start up that I find really exciting to talk to. It's called Study. It's run by a guy called Zack Kansa. And he started that start up relatively recently. Now, if you started 15 years ago, you were going to use EC2 instances building on the cloud, but you were still using compute instances. Zack is really opinionated and a kind of a technology visionary in this sense that he takes this serverless approach. And when you talk to him about how he's building, it's almost this attitude of, if I've had to spin up a server, I've kind of failed in some way, or it's not the right kind of thing. Why would we do that? Because we can build with these completely different kinds of architectures. What was revolutionary 15 years ago, and it's like, okay, you can launch it and serve with an API, and you're going to pay by the hour. But now when you look at how Zack's building, you're not even launching a server and you're paying by the millions. >> So this is a huge history lesson slash important point. Back 15 years ago, you had your alternative to Amazon was provisioning, which is expensive, time consuming, lagging, and probably causes people to give up, frankly. Now you get that in the cloud either you're on your own custom domain. I remember EC2 before they had custom domains. It was so early. But now it's about infrastructures code. Okay, so again, evolution, great time to market, buy what you need in the cloud. And Adam talked about that. Now it's true infrastructure is code. So the smart savvy architects are saying, Hey, I'm just going to program. If I'm spinning up servers, that means that's a low level primitive that should be automated. >> Right. >> That's the new mindset. >> Yeah, that's why the fun thing about being in this industry is in just in the time that I've worked at AWS, since about 2011, this stuff has changed so much. And what was state of the art then? And if you take, it's funny, when you look at some of the startups that have grown with AWS, like whether it's Airbnb, Stripe, Slack and so on. If you look at how they built in 2011, because sometimes new startups will say, oh, we want to go and talk to this kind of unicorn and see how they built. And if you actually talked to the unicorn, some of them would say, we wouldn't build it this way anymore. We would do the kind of stuff that Zack and the folks studied are doing right now, because it's totally different (indistinct). >> And the one thing that's consistent from then to now is only one thing, it has nothing to do with the tech, it's speed. Remember rails front end with some backend Mongo, you're up on EC2, you've got an app, in a week, hackathon. Weekend- >> I'm not tying that time thing, that just goes, it gets smaller and smaller. Like the amplify thing that Verna was talking about this morning. You could've gone back 15 years, it's like, okay, this is how much work the developer would have to do. You could go back a couple of years and it's like, they still have this much work to do. And now this morning, it's like, they've just accelerated them to that kind of thing. >> We'll end on giving Jerry Chan a plug in our chat yesterday. We put the playbook out there for startups. You got to raise your focus on the beach head and solve the problem you got in front of you, and then sequence two adjacent positions, refactor in the cloud. Take that approach. You don't have to boil the ocean over right away. You get in the market, get in and get automating kind of the new playbook. It's just, make everything work for you. Not use the modern. >> Yeah, and the thing for me, that one line, I can't remember it was Paul Gray, or somehow that I stole it from, but he's just encouraging these startups to be appropriately lazy. Like let us do the hard work. Let us do the undifferentiated heavy lifting so people can come up with these super cool ideas. >> Yeah, just plugging the talent, plugging the developer. You got a modern application. Paul, thank you for coming on theCUBE, I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Head of Startup Solution Architecture North America, Amazon Web Services is going to continue to birth more startups that will be unicorns and decacorns now. Don't forget the decacorns. Okay, we're here at theCUBE bringing you all the action. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE. You're watching the Leader in Global Tech Coverage. We'll be right back. (bright upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage for ADFS reinvent 2020 I'm John Ford with the cube, your host. We are the cube virtual. We're not there in person this year. We're remote with the pandemic and we're here for the keynote analysis for Verner Vogels, and we've got some great analysts on and friends of the cube cube alumni is Rob Hirschfeld is the founder and CEO of Rakin a pioneer in the dev ops space, as well as early on on the bare metal, getting on the whole on-premise he's seen the vision and I can tell you, I've talked to him many times over the years. He's been on the same track. He's on the right wave frog. Great to have you on. I'm going to have to start Veatch, come on. Y'all come on as well, but great to see you. Thanks, pleasure to be here. Um, so the keynote with Verna was, you know, he's like takes you on a journey, you know, and, and virtual is actually a little bit different vibe, but I thought he did an exceptional job of stage layout and some of the virtual stage craft. Um, but what I really enjoyed the most was really this next level, thinking around systems thinking, right, which is my favorite topic, because, you know, we've been saying, going back 10 years, the cloud is just, here's a computer, right. It's operating system. And so, um, this is the big thing. This is, what's your reaction to the keynote. >>Wow. So I think you're right. This is one of the challenges with what Amazon has been building is it's, you know, it is a lock box, it's a service. So you don't, you don't get to see behind the scenes. You don't really get to know how they run these services. And what, what I see happening out of all of those pieces is they've really come back and said, we need to help people operate this platform. And, and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Right? Last couple of years, they've been rolling out service, service service, all these new things. This talk was really different for Verner's con normal ones, because he wasn't talking about whizzbang new technologies. Um, he was really talking about operations, um, you know, died in the wool. How do we make the system easier to use? How do we expose things? What assistance can we have in, in building applications? Uh, in some cases it felt like, uh, an application performance monitoring or management APM talk from five or even 10 years ago, um, canaries, um, you know, Canary deployments, chaos engineering, observability, uh, sort of bread and butter, operational things. >>We have Savi Joel, who's a influencer cloud computing Xtrordinair dev ops guru. Uh, we don't need dev ops guru from Amazon. We got Sarpy and prop here. So it'd be great to see you. Um, you guys had a watch party. Um, tell me what the reaction was, um, with, of the influencers in the cloud or ADI out there that were looking at Vernon's announcement, because it does attract a tech crowd. What was your take and what was the conversation like? >>Yeah, we kinda geeked out. Um, we had a watch party and we were commenting back and forth, like when we were watching it. I think that the general consensus is that the complexity of AWS stack itself is, is increasing. Right. And they have been focused on developers a lot, I think a lot longer than they needed to be a little bit. I think, uh, now they need to focus on the operations. Like we, we are, we all love dev ops talks and it's very fancy and it's very modern way of building software. But if you think deep down that, like once we developed software traditionally and, and also going forward, I think we need to have that separation. Once you develop something in production, it's, it's, it's operating right. Once you build a car, you're operating car, you're not building car all the time. Right? >>So same with the software. Once you build a system, it should have some stability where you're running it, operating it for, for a while, at least before you touch it or refactoring all that stuff. So I think like building and operating at the same time, it's very good for companies like Amazon, AWS, especially, uh, and, and Google and, and, and Facebook and all those folks who are building technology because they are purely high-tech companies, but not for GM Ford Chrysler or Kaiser Permanente, which is healthcare or a school district. The, they, they need, need to operate that stuff once it's built. So I think, uh, the operationalization of cloud, uh, well, I think take focus going forward a lot more than it has and absorbable Deanna, on a funny note, I said, observability is one of those things. I, now these days, like, like, you know, and the beauty pageants that every contestant say is like, whatever question you asked, is it Dora and the answer and say at the end world peace, right? >>And that's a world peace term, which is the absorbability. Like you can talk about all the tech stuff and all that stuff. And at the end you say observability and you'll be fine. So, um, what I'm making is like observability is, and was very important. And when I was talking today about like how we can enable the building of absorbability into this new paradigm, which is a microservices, like where you pass a service ID, uh, all across all the functions from beginning to the end. Right. And so, so you can trace stuff. So I think he was talking, uh, at that level. Yeah. >>Let me, let's take an observer Billy real quick. I have a couple of other points. I want to get your opinions on. He said, quote, this three, enabling major enabling technologies, powering observability metrics, logging and tracing here. We know that it would, that is of course, but he didn't take a position. If you look at all the startups out there that are sitting there, the next observability, there's at least six that I know of. I mean, that are saying, and then you got ones that are kind of come in. I think signal effects was one. I liked, like I got bought by Splunk and then is observability, um, a feature, um, or is it a company? I mean, this is something that kind of gets talked about, right? I mean, it's, I mean, is it really something you can build a business on or is it a white space? That's a feature that gets pulled in what'd you guys react to that? >>So this is a platform conversation and, and, you know, one of the things that we've been having conversations around recently is this idea of platforms. And, and, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on infrastructure as code and distributed infrastructure and how people want infrastructure to be more code, like, which is very much what, what Verna was, was saying, right? How do we bring development process capabilities into our infrastructure operations? Um, and these are platform challenges. W what you're asking about from, uh, observability is perspective is if I'm running my code in a platform, if I'm running my infrastructure as a platform, I actually need to understand what that platform is doing and how it's making actions. Um, but today we haven't really built the platforms to be very transparent to the users. And observability becomes this necessary component to fix all the platforms that we have, whether they're Kubernetes or AWS, or, you know, even going back to VMware or bare metal, if you can't see what's going on, then you're operating in the blind. And that is an increasingly big problem. As we get more and more sophisticated infrastructure, right? Amazon's outage was based on systems can being very connected together, and we keep connecting systems together. And so we have to be able to diagnose and troubleshoot when those connections break or for using containers or Lambdas. The code that's running is ephemeral. It's only around for short periods of time. And if something's going wrong in it, it's incredibly hard to fix it, >>You know? And, and also he, you know, he reiterated his whole notion of log everything, right? He kept on banging on the drum on that one, like log everything, which is actually a good practice. You got to log everything. Why wouldn't you, >>I mean, how you do, but they don't make it easy. Right? Amazon has not made it easy to cross, cross, and, uh, connect all the data across all of those platforms. Right? People think of Amazon as one thing, but you know, the people who are using it understand it's actually a collection of services. And some of those are not particularly that tied together. So figuring out something that's going on across, across all of your service bundles, and this isn't an Amazon problem, this is an industry challenge. Especially as we go towards microservices, I have to be able to figure out what happened, even if I used 10 services, >>Horizontal, scalability argument. Sorry. Do you want to get your thoughts on this? So the observability, uh, he also mentioned theory kind of couched it before he went into the talk about systems theory. I'm like, okay. Let's, I mean, I love systems, and I think that's going to be the big wake up call here for the next 10 years. That's a systems mindset. And I think, you know, um, Rob's right. It's a platform conversation. When you're thinking about an operating system or a system, it has consequences when things change, but he talked about controllability versus, uh, observability and kinda T that teed up the, well, you can control systems controls, or you can have observability, uh, what's he getting at in all of this? What's he trying to say, keep, you know, is it a cover story? Is it this, is it a feature? What was the, what was the burner getting at with all this? >>Uh, I, I, I believe they, they understand that, that, uh, that all these services are very sort of micro in nature from Amazon itself. Right. And then they are not tied together as Rob said earlier. And they, he addressed that. He, uh, he, uh, announced that service. I don't know the name of that right now of problem ahead that we will gather all the data from all the different places. And then you can take a look at all the data coming from different services at this at one place where you have the service ID passed on to all the servers services. You have to do that. It's a discipline as a software developer, you have to sort of adhere to even in traditional world, like, like, you know, like how you do logging and monitoring and tracing, um, it's, it's your creativity at play, right? >>So that's what software is like, if you can pass on, I was treating what they gave an example of Citrix, uh, when, when, when you are using like tons of applications with George stream to your desktop, through Citrix, they had app ID concept, right? So you can trace what you're using and all that stuff, and you can trace the usage and all that stuff, and they can, they can map that log to that application, to that user. So you need that. So I think he w he was talking about, I think that's what he's getting too. Like we have to, we have to sort of rethink how we write software in this new Microsoft, uh, sort of a paradigm, which I believe it, it's a beautiful thing. Uh, as long as we can manage it, because Microsoft is, are spread across like, um, small and a smaller piece of software is everywhere, right? So the state, how do we keep the state intact? How do we, um, sort of trace things? Uh, it becomes a huge problem if we don't do it right? So it it's, um, it's a little, this is some learning curve for most of the developers out there. So 60 dash 70% >>Rob was bringing this up, get into this whole crash. And what is it kind of breakdown? Because, you know, there's a point where you don't have the Nirvana of true horizontal scalability, where you might have microservices that need to traverse boundaries or systems, boundaries, where, or silos. So to Rob's point earlier, if you don't see it, you can't measure it or you can't get through it. How do you wire services across boundaries? Is that containers, is that, I mean, how does this all work? How do you guys see that working? I just see a train wreck there. >>It's, it's a really hard problem. And I don't think we should underestimate it because everything we toast talked about sounds great. If you're in a single AWS region, we're talking about distributed infrastructure, right? If you think about what we've been seeing, even more generally about, you know, edge sites, uh, colo on prem, you know, in cloud multi-region cloud, all these things are actually taking this one concept and you're like, Oh, I just want to store all the log data. Now, you're not going to store all your log data in one central location anymore. That in itself, as a distributed infrastructure problem, where I have to be able to troubleshoot what's going on, you know, and know that the logs are going to the right place and capture the data, that's really important. Um, and one of the innovations in this that I think is going to impact the industry over the next couple of years is the addition of more artificial intelligence and machine learning, into understanding operations patterns and practices. >>And I think that that's a really significant industry trend where Amazon has a distinct advantage because it's their systems and it's captive. They can analyze and collect a lot of data across very many customers and learn from those things and program systems that learn from those things. Um, and so the way you're going to keep up with this is not by logging more and more data, but by doing exactly what we're talking through, which was how do I analyze the patterns with machine learning so that I can get predictive analysis so that I can understand something that looks wrong and then put people on checking it before it goes wrong. >>All right, I gotta, I gotta bring up something controversial. I can't hold back any longer. Um, you know, Mark Zuckerberg said many, many years ago, all the old people, they can do startups, they're too old and you gotta be young and hungry. You gotta do that stuff. If we're talking systems theory, uh, automated meta reasoning, evolvable systems, resilience, distributed computing, isn't that us old guys that have actually have systems experience. I mean, if you're under the age of 30, you probably don't even know what a system is. Um, and, or co coded to the level of systems that we use to code. And I'm putting my quote old man kind of theory, only kidding, by the way on the 30. But my point is there is a generation of us that had done computer science in the, in the eighties and seventies, late seventies, maybe eighties and nineties, it's all it was, was systems. It was a systems world. Now, when you have a software world, the aperture is increasing in terms of software, are the younger generation of developers system thinkers, or have we lost that art, uh, or is it doesn't matter? What do you guys think? >>I, I think systems thinking comes with age. I mean, that's, that's sort of how I think, I mean, like I take the systems thinking a greater sort of, >>Um, world, like state as a system country, as a system and everything is a system, your body's a system family system, so it's the same way. And then what impacts the system when you operated internal things, which happened within the system and external, right. And we usually don't talk about the economics and geopolitics. There's a lot of the technology. Sometimes we do, like we have, I think we need to talk more about that, the data sovereignty and all that stuff. But, but even within the system, I think the younger people appreciate it less because they don't have the, they don't see, um, software taught like that in the universities. And, and, and, and by these micro micro universities now online trainings and stuff like sweaty, like, okay, you learn this thing and you're good at it saying, no, no, it's not like that. So you've got to understand the basics and how the systems operate. >>Uh, I'll give you an example. So like we were doing the, the, the client server in early nineties, and then gradually we moved more towards like having ESB enterprise services, bus where you pass a state, uh, from one object to another, and we can bring in the heterogeneous, uh, languages. This thing is written in Java. This is in.net. This is in Python. And then you can pass it through that. Uh, you're gonna make a state for, right. And that, that was contained environment. Like ESBs were contained environment. We were, I, I wrote software for ESPs myself at commerce one. And so like, we, what we need today is the ESP equallant in the cloud. We don't have that. >>Rob, is there a reverse ageism developers? I mean, if you're young, you might not have systems. What do you think? I, I don't agree with that. I actually think that the nature of the systems that we're programming forces people into more distributed infrastructure thinking the platforms we have today are much better than they were, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um, in the sense that I can do distributed infrastructure programming without thinking about it very much anymore, but you know, people know, they know how to use cloud. They know how to use a big platform. They know how to break things into microservices. I, I think that these are inherent skills that people need to think about that you're you're right. There is a challenge in that, you know, you get very used to the platform doing the work for you, and that you need to break through it, but that's an experiential thing, right? >>The more experienced developers are going to have to understand what the platforms do. Just like, you know, we used to have to understand how registers worked inside of a CPU, something I haven't worried about for a long, long time. So I, I don't think it's that big of a problem. Um, from, from that perspective, I do think that the thing that's really hard is collaboration. And so, you know, it's, it's hard people to people it's hard inside of a platform. It's hard when you're an Amazon size and you've been rolling out services all over the place and now have to figure out how to fit them all together. Um, and that to me is, is a design problem. And it's more about being patient and letting things, uh, mature. If anything might take away from this keynote is, you know, everybody asked Amazon to take a breath and work on usability and, and cross cross services synchronizations rather than, than adding more services into the mix. And that's, >>That's a good point. I mean, again, I bring up the conversation because it's kind of the elephant in the room and I make it being controversial to make a point there. So our view, because, you know, I interviewed Judy Estrin who helped found the internet with Vince Cerf. She's well-known for her contributions for the TCP IP protocol. Andy Besta Stein. Who's the, who's the Rembrandt of motherboards. But as Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware, I would say both said to me on the cube that without systems thinking, you don't understand consequences of when things change. And we start thinking about this microservices conversation, you start to hear a little bit of that pattern emerging, where those systems, uh, designs matter. And then you have, on the other hand, you have this modern application framework where serverless takes over. So, you know, Rob back to your infrastructure as code, it really isn't an either, or they're not mutually exclusive. You're going to have a set of nerds and geeks engineering systems to make them better and easier and scalable. And then you're going to have application developers that need to just make it work. So you start to see the formation of kind of the, I won't say swim lanes, but I mean, what do you guys think about that? Because you know, Judy and, um, Andy better sign up. They're kind of right. Uh, >>Th th the enemy here, and we're seeing this over and over again is complexity. And, and the challenge has been, and serverless is like, those people like, Oh, I don't have to worry about servers anymore because I'm dealing with serverless, which is not true. What you're doing is you're not worrying about infrastructure as much, but you, the complexity, especially in a serverless infrastructure where you're pulling, you know, events from all sorts of things, and you have one, one action, one piece of code, you know, triggering a whole bunch of other pieces of code in a decoupled way. We are, we are bringing so much complexity into these systems, um, that they're very hard to conceive of. Um, and AIML is not gonna not gonna address that. Um, I think one of the things that was wonderful about the setting, uh, in the sugar factory and at all of that, you know, sort of very mechanical viewpoint, you know, when you're actually connecting all things together, you can see it. A lot of what we've been building today is almost impossible to observe. And so the complexity price that we're paying in infrastructure is going up exponentially and we can't sustain infrastructures like that. We have to start leveling that in, right? >>Your point on the keynote, by the way, great call out on, on the, on the setting. I thought that was very clever. So what do you think about this? Because as enterprises go through this transformation, one of the big conversations is the solution architecture, the architecture of, um, how you lay all this out. It's complexity involved. Now you've got on premise system, you've got cloud, you've got edge, which you're hearing more and more local processing, disconnected systems, managing it at the edge with visualization. We're going to hear more about that, uh, with Dirk, when he comes on the queue, but you know, just in general as a practitioner out there, what, what's, what's your, what do you see people getting their arms around, around this, this keynote? What do they, what's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the pattern I see emerging is like, or in the whole industry, regardless, like if you put, when does your sign is that like, we will write less and less software in-house I believe that SAS will emerge. Uh, and it has to, I mean, that is the solution to kill the complexity. I believe, like we always talk about software all the time and we, we try to put this in the one band, like it's, everybody's dining, same kind of software, and they have, I'm going to complexity and they have the end years and all that stuff. That's not true. Right. If you are Facebook, you're writing totally different kind of software that needs to scale differently. You needs a lot of cash and all that stuff, right. Gash like this and cash. Well, I ain't both gases, but when you are a mid size enterprise out there in the middle, like fly over America, what, uh, my friend Wayne says, like, we need to think about those people too. >>Like, how do they drive software? What kind of software do they write? Like how many components they have in there? Like they have three tiers of four tiers. So I think they're a little more simpler software for internal use. We have to distinguish these applications. I always talk about this, like the systems of record systems of differentiation, the system of innovation. And I think cloud will do great. And the newer breed of applications, because you're doing a lot of, a lot of experimentation. You're doing a lot of DevOps. You have two pizza teams and all that stuff, which is good stuff we talk about, well, when you go to systems of record, you need stability. You need, you need some things which is operational. You don't want to touch it again, once it's in production. Right? And so the, in between that, that thing is, I think that's, that's where the complexity lies the systems are, which are in between those systems of record and system or innovation, which are very new Greenfield. That, that's what I think that's where we need to focus, uh, our, um, platform development, um, platform as a service development sort of, uh, dollars, if you will, as an industry, I think Amazon is doing that right. And, and Azura is doing that right to a certain extent too. I, I, I, I worry a little bit about, uh, uh, Google because they're more tilted towards the data science, uh, sort of side of things right now. >>Well, Microsoft has the most visibility into kind of the legacy world, but Rob, you're shaking your head there. Um, on his comment, >>You know, I, I, you know, I, I watched the complexity of all these systems and, and, you know, I'm not sure that sass suffocation of everything that we're doing is leading to less is pushing the complexity behind a curtain so that you, you, you can ignore the man behind the curtain. Um, but at the end of the day, you know what we're really driving towards. And I think Amazon is accelerating this. The cloud is accelerating. This is a new set of standard operating processes and procedures based on automation, based on API APIs, based on platforms, uh, that ultimately, I think people could own and could come back to how we want to operate it. When I look at what we w we were just shown with the keynote, you know, it was an, is things that application performance management and monitoring do. It's, it's not really Amazon specific stuff. There's no magic beans that Amazon is growing operational knowledge, you know, in Amazon, greenhouses that only they know how to consume. This is actually pretty block and tackle stuff. Yeah. And most people don't need to operate it at that type of scale to be successful. >>It's a great point. I mean, let's, let's pick up on that for the last couple of minutes we have left. Cause I think that's a great, great double-down because you're thinking about the mantra, Hey, everything is a service, you know, that's great for business model. You know, you hand it over to the techies. They go, wait a minute. What does that actually mean? It's harder. But when I talk to people out there and you hear people talking about everything is a service or sanctification, I do agree. I think you're putting complexity behind the curtain, but it's kind of the depends answer. So if you're going to have everything as a service, the common thesis is it has to have support automation everywhere. You got to automate things to make things sassiphy specified, which means you need five nines, like factory type environments. They're not true factories, but Rob, to your point, if you're going to make something a SAS, it better be Bulletproof. Because if you're, if you're automating something, it better be automated, right? You can measure things all you want, but if it's not automated, like a, like a, >>And you have no idea what's going on behind the curtains with some of these, these things, right. Especially, you know, I know our business and you know, our customers' businesses, they're, they're reliant on more and more services and you have no idea, you know, the persistence that service, if they're going to break an API, if they're going to change things, a lot of the stuff that Amazon is adding here defensively is because they're constantly changing the wheels on the bus. Um, and that is not bad operational practice. You should be resilient to that. You should have processes that are able to be constantly updated and CICB pipelines and, you know, continuous deployments, you shouldn't expect to, to, you know, fossilize your it environment in Amber, and then hope it doesn't have to change for 10 years. But at the same time, we'll work control your house. >>That's angle about better dev ops hypothetical, like a factory, almost metaphor. Do you care if the cars are being shipped down the assembly line and the output works and the output, if you have self-healing and you have these kinds of mechanisms, you know, you could have do care. The services are being terminated and stood up and reformed as long as the factory works. Right? So again, it's a complexity level of how much it, or you want to bite off and chew or make work. So to me, if it's automated, it's simple, did it work or not? And then the cost of work to be, what's your, what's your angle on this? Yeah. >>I believe if you believe in systems thinking, right. You have to believe in, um, um, the concept of, um, um, Oh gosh, I'm losing over minor. Um, abstraction. Right? So abstraction is your friend in software. Abstraction is your friend anyways, right? That's how we, humans pieces actually make a lot more progress than any other sort of living things here in this world. So that's why we are smart. We can abstract complexity behind the curtains, right? We, we can, we can keep improving, like from the, the, you know, wooden cart to the car, to the, to the plane, to the other, like, we, we, we have this, like when, when we see we are flying these airplanes, like 90% of the time they're on autopilot, like that's >>Hi, hiding my attractions is, is about evolution. Evolvable software term. He said, it's true. All right, guys, we have one minute left. Um, let's close this out real quick. Each of you give a closing statement on what you thought of the keynote and Verner's talk prop, we'll start with you. >>Uh, you know, as always, it's a perf keynote, uh, very different this year because it was so operationally focused and using the platform and, and helping people run their, their, off their applications and software better. And I think it's an interesting turn that we've been waiting for for Amazon, uh, to look at, you know, helping people use their own platform more. Um, so, uh, refreshing change and I think really powerful and well delivered. I really did like the setting >>Great shopping. And when we found, I found out today, that's Teresa Carlson is now running training and certification. So I'm expecting that to be highly awesomely accelerated a success there. Sorry, what's your take real quick on burners talk, walk away. Keynote thoughts. >>I, I, I think it was what I expected it to be like, he focused on the more like a software architecture kind of discussion. And he focused this time a little more on the ops side and the dev side, which I think they, they are pivoting a little bit, um, because they, they want to sell more AWS stuff to us, uh, to the existing enterprises. So I think, um, that was, um, good. Uh, I wish at the end, he said, not only like, go, go build, but also go build and operate. So can, you know, they all say, go build, build, build, but like, who's going to operate this stuff. Right. So I think, um, uh, I will see a little shift, I think, going forward, but we were talking earlier, uh, during or watch party that I think, uh, going forward, uh, AWS will open start open sourcing the commoditized version of their cloud, which have been commoditized by other vendors and gradually they will open source it so they can keep the hold onto the enterprises. I think that's what my take is. That's my prediction is >>Awesome and want, I'll make sure I'm at your watch party next time. Sorry. I missed it. Nobody's taking notes. Try and prepare. Sorry, Rob. Thanks for coming on and sharing awesome insight and expertise to experts in cloud and dev ops. I know them. And can firstly vouch for their awesomeness? Thanks for coming on. I think Verner can verify what I thought already was reporting Amazon everywhere. And if you connect the dots, this idea of reasoning, are we going to have smarter cloud? That's the next conversation? I'm John for your host of the cube here, trying to get smarter with Aus coverage. Thanks to Robin. Sarvi becoming on. Thanks for watching.

>>Fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the QS live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John. My coasts do many minutes. We are in the dev net. Similar all the action is the accused third year covering where dev net has been evolving into the centerpiece of Cisco strategy. And all the sessions are here. We've got a great guest. Make D as product marketing for Cisco with umbrella is a takeover going on here. The Devin, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So tell us about umbrella, cause that's a new brand open DNS kind of confer. What's the story with umbrella? Give us the update. >>Sure. So umbrella was first really developed an introduced in the market in 2012 under the open DNS company. We were acquired by Cisco in 2015 and rebranded it to Cisco umbrella. So we've taken the same great product that we've had for years and just continued to develop and add to it. >>And what's the main features now as that same product? Has it been integrated in, cause everything's becoming API base here. We're seeing that. What's the tweak? Is it security? What's the main linkage with the Cisco? >>Yeah, so um, umbrella really started off, uh, providing DNS layer security. So it was often an added layer or foundational layer that customers would use to reduce the amount of malware, make sure that their users were protected anywhere that they were connecting to the internet. And so we've taken that. It's, it's always been developed as an open platform and we've continued to add additional API APIs to it and a lot of additional security features too. So beyond just DNS, we now have a full secure web gateway cloud delivered firewall, uh, Cosby capabilities. So there's been a lot of new capabilities that we've built into the product. >>Can you bring us inside a little bit? We've been in the dev net zone for three years, as John said, got to dev net, create that API economy is something that is so important and that's what so many people, I mean we've seen just huge crowds all week. Help us understand how those APIs fit into Cisco and Cisco umbrella. >>Sure. So when you look at, there's a number of API APIs that we've built into umbrella. So to give you some examples, we have a, uh, a device network device API to make it easy to actually integrate different network devices that you have to umbrella. So how do you get that traffic very easily from any device to our cloud platform? So that's one example. Uh, we've rebuilt a lot of integrations but that allows you to, to help build any additional integrations that you want. Um, we have a reporting API that helps you to, you know, automate some of the, the reporting, send it and integrate it with systems that you have. Um, and then another example, even with, uh, all of the intelligence behind umbrella, we make it available through our investigate API. So we see a lot of organizations use that to enrich their Sam or threat intelligence platform. >>So being able to take all of the data that you have within umbrella and make sure that it can be integrated in the right ways. >> Any new features you guys announcing an umbrella that we should know about here this week? >> Yes. One of the big ones that we've I've been talking about at our booth and in some of the sessions is with any connect, so any connect has always been really big for a lot of Cisco customers to protect roaming users and we've had the ability to, I enable a DNS module as part of that, so that enables them to, even when users are off the VPN, their VPN isn't even turned on. They're still getting protection from umbrella and we've taken that and we've also enabled them to leverage our security gateway functionality when users are roaming as well. So that's for the use cases. >>They're on a VPN, they're doing their thing, they go to a coffee shop or go somewhere else or they're, they're moving around. Exactly. And they might not be actually connected to the VPN, so their traffic isn't actually being protected, so they might be connecting directly to the internet. That's where when they have umbrella enabled there, they can still get the right protection for those users. May talk about the dynamics going on with, with injecting hacks in DNS, because this has always been kind of a, you're always been people but always been chasing this because you are rails, they run the internet, we know some URLs could look like PayPal or this or the other bank. And so it becomes kind of a, your URL, DNS management challenge. This is something that's been fundamental for security. What's, what are some of the things that are going on that people should pay attention to? >>Sure. So I think that there's, there's a few different aspects of that that we're really delivering on today. So first of all, when it comes to just, uh, people, uh, trying to get you to click on a link that looks like PayPal, but it's actually not. Um, so there's a number of different methods that we're using in the product to detect that. So one of the things is, is we'll look at, uh, the way that the domain is actually written. A lot of times you can see some, uh, we, we look at, you know, the, the structure of the wording. And sometimes you can see little, uh, little characters or letters or numbers that are off and we can detect that that's happening. But then we also look at the infrastructure beyond behind the domain. So we look at where is that IP, uh, where is that domain actually hosted? Right? So what's the IP address? What other activity do we see happening on that IP address? Cause you can really learn a lot, right? We saw a, a, a, a PayPal, uh, domain that was supposedly a UK PayPal domain, but it was actually hosted on a Bulletproof hosting site, which no legitimate PayPal account would be or domain would be hosted on. So things like that that we're able to detect. >>Yeah. So make us this way. I saw something talked about online puny code. Is this, what we're talking about here is that there's a different topic, >>a little bit different cause that, but yeah, there, there's also, yeah, they could be embedded within puny code, things like that. But this is just some of our fundamental, what we look at when we're determining if a domain is malicious or not. >>Okay. Could you walk us through a little bit, the demos going on? We've got the takeover going on right now. What, what's the umbrella presence here in the dev net zone and throughout Cisco live? >>Yeah, so there's, there's a lot of different areas that we are. So we have a latch of Verna. Uh, the cafe. Uh, we have all of our demo stations. We have theater presentations pretty much running every 15 minutes. So you can learn more on a number of different topics. Uh, we have the dev net takeover, we have a number of breakout sessions that are happening. Um, so there's a lot of activity happening around Cisco live. >>Well the, Cisco's got a huge technical crowd here. Obviously they're their network geeks. They all know DNS. What are some of the conversations you guys are having? What are some of the cool things that are cause that's not know about programming and they getting into different formats? How is the DNS fitting into that? I've saw some cool demos. What are some of the cool tech conversations? >>Yeah, I think, I think a lot of times it's still, um, we're seeing more of a, a an uptake in people understanding that DNS can be used to actually deliver security as well. So I think, you know, those are some of the, the conversations still educating people about how they can add additional layers of security to their environment and DNS being really one of them. Um, I think what we're also seeing is just because with umbrella we're going beyond just DNS and really taking multiple security services, bringing them into a single cloud platform. And that's a lot of the conversation that we're having and that's where you're seeing the market going. So organizations starting to look at how does that fit into their environment, how can they start to architect their network differently for the future and, and how to wrap security in there. So a lot of the conversations we're having are around that. >>It's interesting the whole dynamic internet conversation kids interesting. Because DNS is, you got to resolve, you got named servers, get your resolution to the, to the destination URL and you load the page or app. As you start getting into more of the dynamic situations, the software is programming it. So it's interesting to see how DNS is evolves. You guys are leading the forefront on that. What's your view on that? What do you, how do you guys see that evolving as you got ACI intent based networking app dynamics over the top kind of programming down as DNS fit into all that? How does that, how does that all work? >>Definitely I think, I think DNS continues to be a, you know, a foundational part of how the internet works. And I, I don't see that really changing. I think, you know, some of the things that we've been, or even the different ways that you see attackers leveraging DNS, uh, you're seeing DNS tunneling for example, being one of the kind of, uh, I wouldn't say newer, but it's one of the types of techniques that nation States are using at times when they're actually embedding, you know, data to, into DNS to exfiltrate it. So, you know, things like that we're seeing, uh, come into place of trying to use DNS in, in different ways from the attack side. Yeah. But I think, you know, when you look at the overall, you know, network and, and all of that, it is a really important and kind of core part of this, >>it's interesting is that the international thing too is you submitted your hosting. A lot of these hosting sites are outside of North America, outside of Europe. They're in these countries where it's suspect, you know, and some of the foreign characters sets get interesting cause that's not ASCII, it's Unicode or you've got all kinds of things going on. So it's a complex not that easy is it? >>No, we have a lot of very, very smart people, doctors working on the, uh, the backend on the, on the engineering side to really look at that. And you know, one of the things that we tried to do, even from the beginning was take a different approach to security where we're not just looking strictly at the file hash or just the basic information, but seeing how can you take data science principles and apply them to use security in new ways to uncover attacks even before they launch. >>I gotta say one of the sessions I was walking around the hall, the couple of the main kind of clusters of people was obviously the big panoramic WebEx room was pretty popular. It looks pretty cool, but the IOT security section was packed. As you hit more devices out there, they're just internet addresses too. And there you've got destination, you got URLs over DNS there too. So you have now that edge piece that's a big security perimeter. I mean, and security surface area, I should say. That's popular. People are interested in this. >>Yes. And that's, I mean, and that's one of the big use cases that we've even seen with umbrella is you have hospitals who have all of these IOT devices and you know that are in their patients and, and it's really scary to think about where they could be connecting on the internet. And that's one of the things that we've seen with umbrella is because we're providing some of that security at the DNS layer, you don't need to have an agent or something on those devices when they're on the network. It's protected by umbrella. So that is one of the use cases that we see. >>I got to ask you, because you came from the acquisition open DNS, I know David, the founder of donut when he started. Great company, great success, congratulations to the whole team there. As you guys come into Cisco, what's it like, because startups are, you know, you're hungry, you grow in and then you get in here, it's almost an a waste of tech. He got new divisions. What's it been like at Cisco with the open DNS now? Umbrella brand, same product with some tweaks. What's it like? >>No, I mean it's been amazing. >>I mean I'm still here, uh, you know, almost five years later. Um, and I think one of the things that's been really exciting is, is the fact that we have been able to leverage a lot of the Cisco technology, right? We've embedded, you know, amp technology, threat grid technology, things that, that ultimately, because we're, you know, sharing those resources and, and embedding them, it's going to make the products more secure. It's going to allow us to share more information between products. And I think just the, you know, the investment, I think Cisco sees where the future is going and you know, how important the cloud is, you know, not only from just a, the way that businesses work, but from the security perspective. So there's been a lot of investment in it. Awesome. Well thanks for coming on sharing your insight. I got to ask you kind of an industry question because you've been on, again the startup now Cisco, most normal people like DNS, I know what a URL is, but they know security. So when they asked you a lot, they hae all this fake news, all this malware, spear fishing. I mean the average consumer, they get the security thing. When they asked you what's going on, what, what do you say to them? How do you explain what you do and your vision of how you see the world evolving? >>Sure. I think, I think for a lot of people, I mean I've, I've been in security now for for a while when I started it was really, it was still all the compliance conversation and you were still educating a lot of people on security. But now my grandma knows about it and you know, she'll ask me questions. So I think, you know, it has become so much more mainstream and you know when I, in in simplest terms, I just talked to people about the fact that we are making sure that wherever users are connecting to the internet, they're doing it securely. You know, no matter what application they're trying to access, we can help secure that. And so that's kind of the, >>and be careful what you click on. It would be, you know, the emails you get. Well you don't know what's in there exactly. Well thanks for come on. Great. Great to have you on. Thanks for the insight. Cisco umbrella. It's taking over dev net dev net zone is packed. It just gets bigger every year and this is where people are learning is very community driven. A lot of, a lot of education, a lot of great content. You're starting out or you're more experienced software certifications all here inside the cube coverage of Barcelona. We'll be right back after this short break.

la from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web Services and in care along with its ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone cubes live coverage of eight of us reinvent 2019 this is the cube seventh year covering Amazon reinvent it's their eighth year of the conference and want to just shout out to Intel for their sponsorship for these two amazing sets without their support we would be able to bring our mission of great content to you I'm John Force to many men we're here with the chief of AWS the chief executive officer Andy chassis tech athlete and himself three our keynotes welcome to the cube again great to see you great to be here thanks for having me guys congratulations on a great show a lot of great buzz thank you a lot of good stuff your keynote was phenomenal you get right into you giddy up right into as you say three hours 30 announcements you guys do a lot but what I liked the new addition in the last year and this year is the band house man yeah they're pretty good they hit the Queen note so that keeps it balanced so we're going to work on getting a band for the cube awesome so if I have to ask you what's your walk-up song what would it be there's so many choices depends what kind of mood I'm in but maybe times like these by the Foo Fighters these are unusual times right now Foo Fighters playing at the Amazon intersect show they are Gandy well congratulations on the intersect you got a lot going on intersect is the music festival I'll get that in a second but I think the big news for me is two things obviously we had a one-on-one exclusive interview and you laid out essentially what looks like was gonna be your keynote it was transformation key for the practice I'm glad to practice use me anytime yeah and I like to appreciate the comments on Jedi on the record that was great but I think the transformation story is a very real one but the NFL news you guys just announced to me was so much fun and relevant you had the Commissioner of NFL on stage with you talking about a strategic partnership that is as top-down aggressive goals you could get yeah I have Roger Goodell fly to a tech conference to sit with you and then bring his team talk about the deal well you know we've been partners with the NFL for a while with the next-gen stats are they using all their telecasts and one of the things I really like about Roger is that he's very curious and very interested in technology in the first couple times I spoke with him he asked me so many questions about ways the NFL might be able to use the cloud and digital transformation to transform their various experiences and he's always said if you have a creative idea or something you think that could change the world for us just call me is it or text me or email me and I'll call you back within 24 hours and so we've spent the better part of the last year talking about a lot of really interesting strategic ways that they can evolve their experience both for fans as well as their players and the player health and safe safety initiative it's so important in sports and particularly important with the NFL given the nature of the sport and they've always had a focus on it but what you can do with computer vision and machine learning algorithms and then building a digital athlete which is really like a digital twin of each athlete so you understand what does it look like when they're healthy what and compare that when it looks like they may not be healthy and be able to simulate all kinds of different combinations of player hits and angles and different plays so that you can try to predict injuries and predict the right equipment you need before there's a problem can be really transformational so it was super excited about it did you guys come up with the idea it was the collaboration between there's really a collaboration I mean they look they are very focused on player's safety and health and it's it's a big deal for their you know they have two main constituents that the players and fans and they care deeply about the players and it's a it's a hard problem in a sport like football but you watch it yeah I gotta say it does point out the use cases of what you guys are promoting heavily at the show here of the stage maker studio which is a big part of your keynote where they have all this data right and they're dated hoarders they've the hoard data but they're the manual process of going through the data it was a killer problem this is consistent with a lot of the enterprises that are out there they have more data than they even know so this seems to be a big part of the strategy how do you get the customers to actually a wake up to the fact that they got data and how do you tie that together I think in almost every company they know they have a lot of data and there are always pockets of people who want to do something with it but when you're gonna make these really big leaps forward these transformations so things like Volkswagen is doing with they're reinventing their factories in their manufacturing process or the NFL where they're gonna radically transform how they do players health and safety it starts top-down and if they if the senior leader isn't convicted about wanting to take that leap forward and trying something different and organizing the data differently and organizing the team differently and using machine learning and getting help from us and building algorithms and building some muscle inside the company it just doesn't happen because it's not in the normal machinery of what most companies do and so it all wait almost always starts top-down sometimes it can be the commissioner or the CEO sometimes it can be the CIO but it has to be senior level conviction or it does get off the ground and the business model impact has to be real for NFL they know concussions hurting their youth pipelining this is a huge issue for them is their business model they they lose even more players to lower extremity injuries and so just the notion of trying to be able to predict injuries and you know the impact it can have on rules the impact it can have on the equipment they use it's a huge game changer when they look at the next 10 to 20 years all right love geeking out on the NFL but no more do you know off camera a 10 man is here defeated season so everybody's a Patriots fan now it's fascinating to watch you and your three-hour keynote Vernor in his you know architectural discussion really showed how AWS is really extending its reach you know it's not just a place for a few years people have been talking about you know cloud as an operation operational model it's not a destination or a location but I felt that really was laid out is you talked about breadth and depth and Verna really talked about you know architectural differentiation people talk about cloud but there are very there are a lot of differences between the vision for where things are going help us understand and why I mean Amazon's vision is still a bit different from what other people talk about where this whole cloud expansion journey but put over what tagger label you want on it but you know the control plane and the technology that you're building and where you see that going well I think that we've talked about this a couple times we we have two macro types of customers we have those that really want to get at the load level building blocks and stitch them together creatively and however they see fit to create whatever is in there in their heads and then we have this second segment of customers who say look I'm willing to give up some of that flexibility in exchange for getting 80% of the way they're much faster in an abstraction that's different from those low level building blocks in both segments of builders we want to serve and serve well and so we built very significant offerings in both areas I think when you look at micro services you know some of it has to do with the fact that we have this very strongly held belief born out of several years at Amazon where you know the first seven or eight years of Amazon's consumer business we basically jumbled together all of the parts of our technology and moving really quickly and when we wanted to move quickly where you had to impact multiple internal development teams it was so long because it was this big ball this big monolithic piece and we got religion about that and trying to move faster in the consumer business and having to tease those pieces apart and it really was a lot of the impetus behind conceiving AWS where it was these low-level very flexible building blocks that don't try and make all the decisions for customers they get to make them themselves and some of the micro services that you saw Verner talking about just you know for instance what we what we did with nitro or even what we do with firecracker those are very much about us relentlessly working to continue to to tease apart the different components and even things that look like low-level building blocks over time you build more and more features and all of a sudden you realize they have a lot of things that are they were combined together that you wished weren't that slowed you down and so nitro was a completely reimagining of our hypervisor and virtualization layer to allow us both to let customers have better performance but also to let us move faster and have a better security story for our customers I got to ask you the question around transformation because I think it all points to that all the data points you got all the references goldman-sachs on stage at the keynote Cerner and the healthcare just an amazing example because I mean this demonstrating real value there there's no excuse I talked to someone who wouldn't be named last night and then around the area said the CIA has a cost bar like this cost up on a budget like this but the demand for mission based apps is going up exponentially so there's need for the cloud and so seeing more and more of that what is your top-down aggressive goals to fill that solution base because you're also very transformational thinker what is your what is your aggressive top-down goals for your organization because you're serving a market with trillions of dollars of span that's shifting that's on the table a lot of competition now sees it too they're gonna go after it but at the end of the day you have customers that have that demand for things apps yeah and not a lot of budget increase at the same time this is a huge dynamic what's your goals you know I think that at a high level are top-down aggressive goals so that we want every single customer who uses our platform to have an outstanding customer experience and we want that outstanding customer experience in part is that their operational performance and their security are outstanding but also that it allows them to build and it build projects and initiatives that change their customer experience and allow them to be a sustainable successful business over a long period of time and then we also really want to be the technology infrastructure platform under all the applications that people build and they were realistic we know that that you know the market segments we address with infrastructure software hardware and data center services globally are trillions of dollars in the long term it won't only be us but we have that goal of wanting to serve every application and that requires not just the security operational performance but also a lot of functionality a lot of capability we have by far the most amount of capability out there and yet I would tell you we have three to five years of items on our roadmap that customers want us to add and that's just what we know today well and any underneath the covers you've been going through some transformation when we talked a couple years ago about how serverless is impacting things I've heard that that's actually in many ways glue behind the two pizza teams to work between organizations talk about how the internal transformations are happening how that impacts your discussions with customers that are going through that transformation well I mean there's a lot of a lot of the technology we build comes from things that we're doing ourselves you know and that we're learning ourselves it's kind of how we started thinking about microservices serverless - we saw the need we know we would have we would build all these functions that when some kind of object came into an object store we would spin up compute all those tasks would take like three or four hundred milliseconds then we spin it back down and yet we'd have to keep a cluster up in multiple availability zones because we needed that fault tolerance and it was we just said this is wasteful and that's part of how we came up with lambda and that you know when we were thinking about lambda people understandably said well if we build lambda and we build the serverless event-driven computing a lot of people who are keeping clusters of instances aren't going to use them anymore it's going to lead to less absolute revenue for us but we we have learned this lesson over the last 20 years at Amazon which is if it's something it's good for customers you're much better off cannibalizing yourself and doing the right thing for customers and being part of shaping something and I think if you look at the history of Technology you always build things and people say well that's gonna cannibalize this and people are gonna spend less money what really ends up happening is they spend spend less money per unit of compute but it allows them to do so much more that the ultimately long-term end up being you know more significant customers I mean you are like beating the drum all the time customers what they say we implement the roadmap I got that you guys have that playbook down that's been really successful for you yeah two years ago you told me machine learning was really important to you because your customers told what's the next tranche of importance for customers what's on top of mine now as you look at this reinvent kind of coming to a close replays tonight you had conversations your your tech a fleet you're running around doing speeches talking to customers what's that next hill from from my fist machine learning today there's so much I mean that's not it's not a soup question you know I think we're still in this in the very early days of machine learning it's not like most companies have mastered yet even though they're using it much more than they did in the past but you know I think machine learning for sure I think the edge for sure I think that we're optimistic about quantum computing even though I think it'll be a few years before it's really broadly useful we're very enthusiastic about robotics I think the amount of functions are going to be done by these robotic applications are much more expansive than people realize it doesn't mean humans won't have jobs they're just going to work on things that are more value-added I thought we're believers in augmented and virtual reality we're big believers and what's going to happen with voice and I'm also I think sometimes people get bored you know I think you're even bored with machine learning maybe already but yet people get bored with the things you've heard about but I think just what we've done with the chips you know in terms of giving people 40% better price performance in the latest generation of x86 processors it's pretty unbelievable and the difference in what people are going to be able to do or just look at big data I mean big date we haven't gotten through big data where people have totally solved it the amount of data that companies want to store process and analyze is exponentially larger than it was a few years ago and it will I think exponentially increase again in the next few years you need different tools the service I think we're not we're not for with machine learning we're excited to get started because we have all this data from the video and you guys got sage maker yeah we call it a stairway to machine learning heaven we start with the data move up what now guys are very sophisticated with what you do with technology and machine learning and there's so much I mean we're just kind of again in this early innings and I think that it was soaked before sage maker was so hard for everyday developers and data scientists to build models but the combination of sage maker and what's happened with thousands of companies standardizing on it the last two years Plus now sage maker studio giant leap forward we hope to use the data to transform our experience with our audience and we're on Amazon Cloud I really appreciate that and appreciate your support if we're with Amazon and Instant get that machine learning going a little faster for us a big that'll be better if you have requests so any I'm you talked about that you've got the customers that are builders and the customers that need simplification traditionally when you get into the you know the heart of the majority of adoption of something you really need to simplify that environment but when I think about the successful enterprise of the future they need to be builders yeah so has the model flipped if you know I normally would said enterprise want to pay for solutions because they don't have the skill set but if they're gonna succeed in this new economy they need to go through that transformation that yeah so I mean are we in just a total new era when we look back will this be different than some of these previous waves it's a it's a really good question Stu and I I don't think there's a simple answer to it I think that a lot of enterprises in some ways I think wish that they could just skip the low level building blocks and and only operate at that higher level abstraction it's why people were so excited by things like sage maker or code guru or Kendra or contact lens these are all services that allow them to just send us data and then run it on our models and get back the answers but I think one of the big trends that we see with enterprises is that they are taking more and more of their development in-house and they are wanting to operate more and more like startups I think that they admire what companies like Airbnb and Pinterest and slack and and you know Robin Hood and a whole bunch of those companies stripe have done and so when you know I think you go through these phases and errors where there are waves of success at different companies and then others want to follow that success and and replicate and so we see more and more enterprises saying we need to take back a lot of that development in-house and as they do that and as they add more developers those developers in most cases like to deal with the building blocks and they have a lot of ideas on how they can create us to creatively stitch them together on that point I want to just quickly ask you on Amazon versus other clouds because you made a comment to me in our interview about how hard it is to provide a service that to other people and it's hard to have a service that you're using yourself and turn that around and the most quoted line in my story was the compression algorithm there's no compression outliving for experience which to me is the diseconomies of scale for taking shortcuts yeah and so I think this is a really interesting point just add some color comments or I think this is a fundamental difference between AWS and others because you guys have a trajectory over the years of serving at scale customers wherever they are whatever they want to do now you got micro services it's even more complex that's hard yeah how about that I think there are a few elements to that notion of there's no compression algorithm I think the first thing to know about AWS which is different is we just come from a different heritage in a different background we sweep ran a business for a long time that was our sole business that was a consumer retail business that was very low margin and so we had to operate a very large scale given how many people were using us but also we had to run infrastructure services deep in the stack compute storage and database in reliable scalable data centers at very low costs and margins and so when you look at our our business it actually today I mean it's it's a higher margin business in our retail business the lower margin business and software companies but at real scale it's a it's a high-volume relatively low margin business and the way that you have to operate to be successful with those businesses and the things you have to think about and that DNA come from the type of operators that we have to be in our consumer retail business and there's nobody else in our space that does that you know the way that we think about cost the way we think about innovation and the data center and and I also think the way that we operate services and how long we've been operating services of the company it's a very different mindset than operating package software then you look at when you think about some of the issues and very large scale cloud you can't learn some of those lessons until you get two different elbows of the curve and scale and so what I was telling you is it's really different to run your own platform for your own users where you get to tell them exactly how it's going to be done but that's nothing really the way the real world works I mean we have millions of external customers who use us from every imaginable country and location whenever they want without any warning for lots of different use cases and they have lots of design patterns and we don't get to tell them what to do and so operating a cloud like that at a scale that's several times larger the next few providers combined is a very different endeavor and a very different operating rigor well you got to keep raising the bar you guys do a great job really impress again another tsunami of announcements in fact you had to spill the beans early with quantum the day before the event tight schedule I gotta ask you about the music festival because I think there's a really cool innovation it's the inaugural intersex conference yeah it's not part of replay which is the concert tonight right it's a whole new thing big music act you're a big music buff your daughter's an artist why did you do this what's the purpose what's your goal yeah it's an experiment I think that what's happened is that reinvent has gotten so big with 65,000 people here that to do the party which we do every year it's like a thirty five forty thousand person concert now which means you have to have a location that has multiple stages and you know we thought about it last year when we were watching it and we said we're kind of throwing like a four hour music festival right now there's multiple stages and it's quite expensive to set up that set for our partying we said well maybe we don't have to spend all that money for four hours in the rip it apart because actually the rent to keep those locations for another two days is much smaller than the cost of actually building multiple stages and so we we would try it this year we're very passionate about music as a business and I think we are I think our customers feel like we throw in a pretty good music party the last few years and we thought we were trying at a larger scale as an experiment and if you look at the economics the headliners real quick the Foo Fighters are headlining on Saturday night Anderson Park and the free Nashville free Nationals Brandi Carlile Shawn Mullins Willie Porter it's a good set Friday night it's back in Kacey Musgraves so it's it's a really great set of about 30 artists and we're hopeful that if we can build a great experience that people want to attend that we can do it it's scale and it might be something that you know both pays for itself and maybe helps pay for reinvent to overtime and you know I think that we're also thinking about it as not just a music concert and festival the reason we named it intersect is that we want an intersection of music genres and people and ethnicities and age groups and art and Technology all there together and this will be the first year we try it it's an experiment and we're really excited about I'm gone congratulations all your success and I want to thank you we've been seven years here at reinvent we've been documenting the history two sets now once-dead upstairs so appreciate a cube is part of reinvent you know you guys really are a part of the event and we really appreciate your coming here and I know people appreciate the content you create as well and we just launched cube 365 on Amazon Marketplace built on AWS so thanks for letting us cool build on the platform appreciate it thanks for having me guys Jesse the CEO of AWS here inside the cube it's our seventh year covering and documenting they're just the thunderous innovation that Amazon is doing they're really doing amazing work building out the new technologies here in the cloud computing world I'm John Force too many men be right back with more after this short break [Music]

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re:Invent 2017, presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Las Vegas for AWS Amazon web services re:Invent 2017. I'm John Furrier with Keith Townsend. Our next guest is Laura Stevens, data scientist at the American Heart Association, an AWS customer, welcome to theCUBE. >> Hi, it's nice to be here. >> So, the new architecture, we're seeing all this great stuff, but one of the things that they mention is data is the killer app, that's my word, Verna didn't say that, but essentially saying that. You guys are doing some good work with AWS and precision medicine, what's the story? How does this all work, what are you working with them on? >> Yeah, so the American Heart Association was founded in 1924, and it is the oldest and largest voluntary organization dedicated to curing heart disease and stroke, and I think in the past few years what the American Heart Association has realized is that the potential of technology and data can really help us create innovative ways and really launch precision medicine in a fashion that hasn't been capable to do before. >> What are you guys doing with AWS? What's that, what's the solution? >> Yeah so the HA has strategically partnered with Amazon Web Services to basically use technology as a way to power precision medicine, and so when I say precision medicine, I mean identifying individual treatments, based on one's genetics, their environmental factors, their life factors, that then results in preventative and treatment that's catered to you as an individual rather than kind of a one size fits all approach that is currently happening. >> So more tailored? >> Yeah, specifically tailored to you as an individual. >> What do I do, get a genome sequence? I walk in, they throw a high force computing, sequence my genomes, maybe edit some genes while they're at it, I mean what's going on. There's some cutting edge conversations out there we see in some of the academic areas, course per that was me just throwing that in for fun, but data has to be there. What kind of data do you guys look at? Is it personal data, is it like how big is the data? Give us a sense of some of the data science work that you're doing? >> Yeah so the American Heart Association has launched the Institute for Precision Cardiovascular Medicine, and as a result, with Amazon, they created the precision medicine platform, which is a data marketplace that houses and provides analytic tools that enable high performance computing and data sharing for all sorts of different types of data, whether it be personal data, clinical trial data, pharmaceutical data, other data that's collected in different industries, hospital data, so a variety of data. >> So Laura, there's a lot of think fud out there around the ability to store data in a cloud, but there's also some valid concerns. A lot of individual researchers, I would imagine, don't have the skillset to properly protect data. What is the Heart Association doing with the framework to help your customers protect data? >> Yeah so the I guess security of data, the security of the individual, and the privacy of the individual is at the heart of the AHA, and it's their number one concern, and making anything that they provide that a number one priority, and the way that we do that in partnering with AWS is with this cloud environment we've been able to create even if you have data that you'd like to use sort of a walled garden behind your data so that it's not accessible to people who don't have access to the data, and it's also HIPAA compliant, it meets the standards that the utmost secure standards of health care today. >> So I want to make sure we're clear on this, the Heart Association doesn't collect data themselves. Are you guys creating a platform for your members to leverage this technology? >> So there's, I would so maybe both actually. The American Heart Association does have data that it is associated with, with its volunteers and the hospitals that it's associated with, and then on top of that, we've actually just launched My Research Legacy, which allows individuals of the community to, who want to share their data, whether you're healthy or just sick, either one, they want to share their data and help in aiding to cure heart disease and stroke, and so they can share their own data, and then on top of that, anybody, we are committed to strategically partnering with anybody who's involved and wants to share their data and make their data accessible. >> So I can share my data? >> Yes, you can share your data. >> Wow, so what type of tools do you guys use against that data set and what are some of the outcomes? >> Yeah so I think the foundation is the cloud, and that's where the data is stored and housed, and then from there, we have a variety of different tools that enable researchers to kind of custom build data sets that they want to answer the specific research questions they have, and so some of those tools, they range from common tools that are already in use today on your personal computer, such as Python or R Bioconductor, and then they have more high performance computing tools, such as Hal or any kind of s3 environment, or Amazon services, and then on top of that I think what is so awesome about the platform is that it's very dynamic, so a tool that's needed to use for high performance computing or a tool that's needed even just as a on a smaller data set, that can easily be installed and may be available to researchers, and so that they can use it for their research. >> So kind of data as a service. I would love to know about the community itself. How are you guys sharing the results of kind of oh this process worked great for this type of analysis amongst your members? >> Yeah so I think that there's kind of two different targets in that sense that you can think of is that there's the researchers and the researchers that come to the platform and then there's actually the patient itself, and ultimately the HA's goal is to make, to use the data and use the researcher for patient centered care, so with the researchers specifically, we have a variety of tutorials available so that researchers can one, learn how to perform high performance computing analysis, see what other people have done. We have a forum where researchers can log on and enable, I guess access other researchers and talk to them about different analysis, and then additionally we have My Research Legacy, which is patient centered, so it's this is what's been found and this is what we can give back to you as the patient about your specific individualized treatment. >> What do you do on a daily basis? Take us through your job, are you writing code, are you slinging API's around? What are some of the things that you're doing? >> I think I might say all of the above. I think right now my main effort is focused on one, conducting research using the platform, so I do use the platform to answer my own research questions, and those we have presented at different conferences, for example the American Heart Association, we had a talk here about the precision medicine platform, and then two, I'm focused on strategically making the precision medicine platform better by getting more data, adding data to the platform, improving the way that data is harmonized in the platform, and improving the amount of data that we have, and the diversity, and the variety. >> Alright, we'll help you with that, so let's help you get some people recruited, so what do they got to do to volunteer, volunteer their data, because I think this is one of those things where you know people do want to help. So, how do they, how you onboard? You use the website, is it easy, one click? Do they have to wear an iWatch, I mean what I mean? >> Yeah. >> What's the deal? What do I got to do? >> So I think I would encourage researchers and scientists and anybody who is data centric to go to precision.heart.org, and they can just sign up for an account, they can contact us through that, there's plenty of different ways to get in touch with us and plenty of ways to help. >> Precision.heart.org. >> Yup, precision.heart.org. >> Stu: Register now. >> Register now click, >> Powered by AWS. >> Yup. >> Alright so I gotta ask you as an AWS customer, okay take your customer hat off, put your citizen's hat on, what is Amazon mean to you, I mean is it, how do you describe it to people who don't use it? >> Okay yeah, so I think... the HA's ultimate mission right, is to provide individualized treatment and cures for cardiovascular disease and stroke. Amazon is a way to enable that and make that actually happen so that we can mine extremely large data sets, identify those individualized patterns. It allows us to store data in a fashion where we can provide a market place where there's extremely large amounts of data, extremely diverse amounts of data, and data that can be processed effectively, so that it can be directly used for research. >> What's your favorite tool or product or service within Amazon? >> That's a good question. I think, I mean the cloud and s3 buckets are definitely in a sense they're my favorites because there's so much that can be stored right there, Athena I think is also pretty awesome, and then the EMR clusters with Spark. >> The list is too long. >> My jam. >> It is. (laughs) >> So, one of the interesting things that I love is a lot of my friends are in non-profits, fundraising is a big, big challenge, grants are again, a big challenge, have you guys seen any new opportunities as a result of the results of the research coming out of HA and AWS in the cloud? >> Yeah so I think one of the coolest things about the HA is that they have this Institute for Precision Cardiovascular Medicine, and the strategic partnership between the HA and AWS, even just this year we've launched 13 new grants, where the HA kind of backs the research behind, and the AWS provides credit so that people can come to the cloud and use the cloud and use the tools available on a grant funded basis. >> So tell me a little bit more about that program. Anybody specifically that you, kind of like saying, seeing that's used these credits from AWS to do some cool research? >> Yeah definitely, so I think specifically we have one grantee right now that is really focused on identifying outcomes across multiple clinical trials, so currently clinical trials take 20 years, and there's a large variety of them. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Framingham heart study, the Dallas heart study, the Jackson heart study, and trying to determine how those trials compare, and what outcomes we can generate, and research insights we can generate across multiple data sets is something that's been challenging due to the ability to not being able to necessarily access that data, all of those different data sets together, and then two, trying to find ways to actually compare them, and so with the precision medicine platform, we have a grantee at the University of Colorado-Denver, who has been able to find those synchronicities across data sets and has actually created kind of a framework that then can be implemented in the precision medicine platform. >> Well I just registered, it takes really two seconds to register, that's cool. Thanks so much for pointing out precision.heart.org. Final question, you said EMR's your jam. (laughing) >> Why, why is it? Why do you like it so much, is it fast, is it easy to use? >> I think the speed is one of the things. When it comes to using genetic data and multiple biological levels of data, whether it be your genetics, your lifestyle, your environment factors, there's... it just ends up being extremely large amounts of data, and to be able to implement things like server-less AI, and artificial intelligence, and machine learning on that data set is time consuming, and having the power of an EMR cluster that is scalable makes that so much faster so that we can then answer our research questions faster and identify those insights and get them to out in the world. >> Gotta love the new services they're launching, too. It just builds on top of it. Doesn't it? >> Yes. >> Yeah, soon everyone's gonna be jamming on AWS in our opinion. Thanks so much for coming on, appreciate the stories and commentary. >> Yeah. >> Precision.heart.org, you want to volunteer if you're a researcher or a user, want to share your data, they've got a lot of data science mojo going on over there, so check it out. It's theCUBE bringing a lot of data here, tons of data from the show, three days of wall to wall coverage, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)