>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Cube's live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS reinforce 2022. I'm John fur, host of the cube with Dave. Valante my co-host for breaking analysis, famous podcast, Dave, great to see you. Um, Beck in Boston, 2010, we started >>The queue. It all started right here in this building. John, >>12 years ago, we started here, but here, you know, just 12 years, it just seems like a marathon with the queue. Over the years, we've seen many ways. You call yourself a historian, which you are. We are both now, historians security is doing over. And we said in 2013 is security to do where we asked pat GSK. Now the CEO of Intel prior to that, he was the CEO of VMware. This is the security show fors. It's called the reinforce. They have reinvent, which is their big show. Now they have these, what they call reshow, re Mars, machine learning, automation, um, robotics and space. And then they got reinforced, which is security. It's all about security in the cloud. So great show. Lot of talk about the keynotes were, um, pretty, I wouldn't say generic on one hand, but specific in the other clear AWS posture, we were both watching. What's your take? >>Well, John, actually looking back to may of 2010, when we started the cube at EMC world, and that was the beginning of this massive boom run, uh, which, you know, finally, we're starting to see some, some cracks of the armor. Of course, we're threats of recession. We're in a recession, most likely, uh, in inflationary pressures, interest rate hikes. And so, you know, finally the tech market has chilled out a little bit and you have this case before we get into the security piece of is the glass half full or half empty. So budgets coming into this year, it was expected. They would grow at a very robust eight point half percent CIOs have tuned that down, but it's still pretty strong at around 6%. And one of the areas that they really have no choice, but to focus on is security. They moved everything into the cloud or a lot of stuff into the cloud. >>They had to deal with remote work and that created a lot of security vulnerabilities. And they're still trying to figure that out and plug the holes with the lack of talent that they have. So it's interesting re the first reinforc that we did, which was also here in 2019, Steven Schmidt, who at the time was chief information security officer at Amazon web services said the state of cloud security is really strong. All this narrative, like the pat Gelsinger narrative securities, a do over, which you just mentioned, security is broken. It doesn't help the industry. The state of cloud security is very strong. If you follow the prescription. Well, see, now Steven Schmidt, as you know, is now chief security officer at Amazon. So we followed >>Jesse all Amazon, not just AWS. So >>He followed Jesse over and I asked him, well, why no, I, and they said, well, he's responsible now for physical security. Presumably the warehouses I'm like, well, wait a minute. What about the data centers? Who's responsible for that? So it's kind of funny, CJ. Moses is now the CSO at AWS and you know, these events are, are good. They're growing. And it's all about best practices, how to apply the practices. A lot of recommendations from, from AWS, a lot of tooling and really an ecosystem because let's face it. Amazon doesn't have the breadth and depth of tools to do it alone. >>And also the attendance is interesting, cuz we are just in New York city for the, uh, ado summit, 19,000 people, massive numbers, certainly in the pandemic. That's probably one of the top end shows and it was a summit. This is a different audience. It's security. It's really nerdy. You got OT, you got cloud. You've got on-prem. So now you have cloud operations. We're calling super cloud. Of course we're having our inaugural pilot event on August 9th, check it out. We're called super cloud, go to the cube.net to check it out. But this is the super cloud model evolving with security. And what you're hearing today, Dave, I wanna get your reaction to this is things like we've got billions of observational points. We're certainly there's no perimeter, right? So the perimeter's dead. The new perimeter, if you will, is every transaction at scale. So you have to have a new model. So security posture needs to be rethought. They actually said that directly on the keynote. So security, although numbers aren't as big as last week or two weeks ago in New York still relevant. So alright. There's sessions here. There's networking. Very interesting demographic, long hair. Lot of >>T-shirts >>No lot of, not a lot of nerds doing to build out things over there. So, so I gotta ask you, what's your reaction to this scale as the new advantage? Is that a tailwind or a headwind? What's your read? >>Well, it is amazing. I mean he actually, Steven Schmidt talked about quadrillions of events every month, quadrillions 15 zeros. What surprised me, John. So they, they, Amazon talks about five areas, but by the, by the way, at the event, they got five tracks in 125 sessions, data protection and privacy, GRC governance, risk and compliance, identity network security and threat detection. I was really surprised given the focus on developers, they didn't call out container security. I would've thought that would be sort of a separate area of focus, but to your point about scale, it's true. Amazon has a scale where they'll see events every day or every month that you might not see in a generation if you just kind of running your own data center. So I do think that's, that's, that's, that's a, a, a, a valid statement having said that Amazon's got a limited capability in terms of security. That's why they have to rely on the ecosystem. Now it's all about APIs connecting in and APIs are one of the biggest security vulnerability. So that's kind of, I, I I'm having trouble squaring that circle. >>Well, they did just to come up, bring back to the whole open source and software. They did say they did make a measurement was store, but at the beginning, Schmidt did say that, you know, besides scale being an advantage for Amazon with a quadri in 15 zeros, don't bolt on security. So that's a classic old school. We've heard that before, right. But he said specifically, weave in security in the dev cycles. And the C I C D pipeline that is, that basically means shift left. So sneak is here, uh, company we've covered. Um, and they, their whole thing is shift left. That implies Docker containers that implies Kubernetes. Um, but this is not a cloud native show per se. It's much more crypto crypto. You heard about, you know, the, uh, encrypt everything message on the keynote. You heard, um, about reasoning, quantum, quantum >>Skating to the puck. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, you know, although the middleman is logged for J heard that little little mention, I love the quote from Lewis Hamilton that they put up on stage CJ, Moses said, team behind the scenes make it happen. So a big emphasis on teamwork, big emphasis on don't bolt on security, have it in the beginning. We've heard that before a lot of threat modeling discussions, uh, and then really this, you know, the news around the cloud audit academy. So clearly skills gap, more threats, more use cases happening than ever before. >>Yeah. And you know, to your point about, you know, the teamwork, I think the problem that CISOs have is they just don't have the talent to that. AWS has. So they have a real difficulty applying that talent. And so but's saying, well, join us at these shows. We'll kind of show you how to do it, how we do it internally. And again, I think when you look out on this ecosystem, there's still like thousands and thousands of tools that practitioners have to apply every time. There's a tool, there's a separate set of skills to really understand that tool, even within AWS's portfolio. So this notion of a shared responsibility model, Amazon takes care of, you know, securing for instance, the physical nature of S3 you're responsible for secure, make sure you're the, the S3 bucket doesn't have public access. So that shared responsibility model is still very important. And I think practitioners still struggling with all this complexity in this matrix of tools. >>So they had the layered defense. So, so just a review opening keynote with Steve Schmidt, the new CSO, he talked about weaving insecurity in the dev cycles shift left, which is the, I don't bolt it on keep in the beginning. Uh, the lessons learned, he talked a lot about over permissive creates chaos, um, and that you gotta really look at who has access to what and why big learnings there. And he brought up the use cases. The more use cases are coming on than ever before. Um, layered defense strategy was his core theme, Dave. And that was interesting. And he also said specifically, no, don't rely on single security control, use multiple layers, stronger together. Be it it from the beginning, basically that was the whole ethos, the posture, he laid that down >>And he had a great quote on that. He said, I'm sorry to interrupt single controls. And binary states will fail guaranteed. >>Yeah, that's a guarantee that was basically like, that's his, that's not a best practice. That's a mandate. <laugh> um, and then CJ, Moses, who was his deputy in the past now takes over a CSO, um, ownership across teams, ransomware mitigation, air gaping, all that kind of in the weeds kind of security stuff. You want to check the boxes on. And I thought he did a good job. Right. And he did the news. He's the new CISO. Okay. Then you had lean is smart from Mongo DB. Come on. Yeah. Um, she was interesting. I liked her talk, obviously. Mongo is one of the ecosystem partners headlining game. How do you read into that? >>Well, I, I I'm, its really interesting. Right? You didn't see snowflake up there. Right? You see data breaks up there. You had Mongo up there and I'm curious is her and she's coming on the cube tomorrow is her primary role sort of securing Mongo internally? Is it, is it securing the Mongo that's running across clouds. She's obviously here talking about AWS. So what I make of it is, you know, that's, it's a really critical partner. That's driving a lot of business for AWS, but at the same time it's data, they talked about data security being one of the key areas that you have to worry about and that's, you know what Mongo does. So I'm really excited. I talked to her >>Tomorrow. I, I did like her mention a big idea, a cube alumni, yeah. Company. They were part of our, um, season one of our eight of us startup showcase, check out AWS startups.com. If you're watching this, we've been doing now, we're in season two, we're featuring the fastest growing hottest startups in the ecosystem. Not the big players, that's ISVs more of the startups. They were mentioned. They have a great product. So I like to mention a big ID. Um, security hub mentioned a config. They're clearly a big customer and they have user base, a lot of E C, two and storage going on. People are building on Mongo so I can see why they're in there. The question I want to ask you is, is Mongo's new stuff in line with all the upgrades in the Silicon. So you got graviton, which has got great stuff. Um, great performance. Do you see that, that being a key part of things >>Well, specifically graviton. So I I'll tell you this. I'll tell you what I know when you look at like snowflake, for instance, is optimizing for graviton. For certain workloads, they actually talked about it on their earnings call, how it's lowered the cost for customers and actually hurt their revenue. You know, they still had great revenue, but it hurt their revenue. My sources indicate to me that that, that Mongo is not getting as much outta graviton two, but they're waiting for graviton three. Now they don't want to make that widely known because they don't wanna dis AWS. But it's, it's probably because Mongo's more focused on analytics. But so to me, graviton is the future. It's lower cost. >>Yeah. Nobody turns off the database. >>Nobody turns off the database. >><laugh>, it's always cranking C two cycles. You >>Know the other thing I wanted to bring, bring up, I thought we'd hear, hear more about ransomware. We heard a little bit of from Kirk Coel and he, and he talked about all these things you could do to mitigate ransomware. He didn't talk about air gaps and that's all you hear is how air gap. David Flo talks about this all the time. You must have air gaps. If you wanna, you know, cover yourself against ransomware. And they didn't even mention that. Now, maybe we'll hear that from the ecosystem. That was kind of surprising. Then I, I saw you made a note in our shared doc about encryption, cuz I think all the talk here is encryption at rest. What about data in motion? >>Well, this, this is the last guy that came on the keynote. He brought up encryption, Kurt, uh, Goel, which I love by the way he's VP of platform. I like his mojo. He's got the long hair >>And he's >>Geeking out swagger, but I, he hit on some really cool stuff. This idea of the reasoning, right? He automated reasoning is little pet project that is like killer AI. That's next generation. Next level >>Stuff. Explain that. >>So machine learning does all kinds of things, you know, goes to sit pattern, supervise, unsupervised automate stuff, but true reasoning. Like no one connecting the dots with software. That's like true AI, right? That's really hard. Like in word association, knowing how things are connected, looking at pattern and deducing things. So you predictive analytics, we all know comes from great machine learning. But when you start getting into deduction, when you say, Hey, that EC two cluster never should be on the same VPC, is this, this one? Why is this packet trying to go there? You can see patterns beyond normal observation space. So if you have a large observation space like AWS, you can really put some killer computer science technology on this. And that's where this reasoning is. It's next level stuff you don't hear about it because nobody does it. Yes. I mean, Google does it with metadata. There's meta meta reasoning. Um, we've been, I've been watching this for over two decades now. It's it's a part of AI that no one's tapped and if they get it right, this is gonna be a killer part of the automation. So >>He talked about this, basically it being advanced math that gets you to provable security, like you gave an example. Another example I gave is, is this S3 bucket open to the public is a, at that access UN restricted or unrestricted, can anyone access my KMS keys? So, and you can prove, yeah. The answer to that question using advanced math and automated reasoning. Yeah, exactly. That's a huge leap because you used to be use math, but you didn't have the data, the observation space and the compute power to be able to do it in near real time or real time. >>It's like, it's like when someone, if in the physical world real life in real life, you say, Hey, that person doesn't belong here. Or you, you can look at something saying that doesn't fit <laugh> >>Yeah. Yeah. >>So you go, okay, you observe it and you, you take measures on it or you query that person and say, why you here? Oh, okay. You're here. It doesn't fit. Right. Think about the way on the right clothes, the right look, whatever you kind of have that data. That's deducing that and getting that information. That's what reasoning is. It's it's really a killer level. And you know, there's encrypt, everything has to be data. Lin has to be data in at movement at rest is one thing, but you gotta get data in flight. Dave, this is a huge problem. And making that work is a key >>Issue. The other thing that Kirk Coel talked about was, was quantum, uh, quantum proof algorithms, because basically he put up a quote, you're a hockey guy, Wayne Greski. He said the greatest hockey player ever. Do you agree? I do agree. Okay, great. >>Bobby or, and Wayne Greski. >>Yeah, but okay, so we'll give the nada Greski, but I always skate to the where the puck is gonna be not to where it's been. And basically his point was where skating to where quantum is going, because quantum, it brings risks to basically blow away all the existing crypto cryptographic algorithms. I, I, my understanding is N just came up with new algorithms. I wasn't clear if those were supposed to be quantum proof, but I think they are, and AWS is testing them. And AWS is coming out with, you know, some test to see if quantum can break these new algos. So that's huge. The question is interoperability. Yeah. How is it gonna interact with all the existing algorithms and all the tools that are out there today? So I think we're a long way off from solving that problem. >>Well, that was one of Kurt's big point. You talking about quantum resistant cryptography and they introduce hybrid post quantum key agreements. That means KMS cert certification, cert manager and manager all can manage the keys. This was something that's gives more flexibility on, on, on that quantum resistance argument. I gotta dig into it. I really don't know how it works, what he meant by that in terms of what does that hybrid actually mean? I think what it means is multi mode and uh, key management, but we'll see. >>So I come back to the ho the macro for a second. We've got consumer spending under pressure. Walmart just announced, not great earning. Shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. We have Amazon meta and alphabet announcing this weekend. I think Microsoft. Yep. So everybody's on edge, you know, is this gonna ripple through now? The flip side of that is BEC because the economy yeah. Is, is maybe not in, not such great shape. People are saying maybe the fed is not gonna raise after September. Yeah. So that's, so that's why we come back to this half full half empty. How does that relate to cyber security? Well, people are prioritizing cybersecurity, but it's not an unlimited budget. So they may have to steal from other places. >>It's a double whammy. Dave, it's a double whammy on the spend side and also the macroeconomic. So, okay. We're gonna have a, a recession that's predicted the issue >>On, so that's bad on the one hand, but it's good from a standpoint of not raising interest rates, >>It's one of the double whammy. It was one, it's one of the double whammy and we're talking about here, but as we sit on the cube two weeks ago at <inaudible> summit in New York, and we did at re Mars, this is the first recession where the cloud computing hyperscale is, are pumping full cylinder, all cylinders. So there's a new economic engine called cloud computing that's in place. So unlike data center purchase in the past, that was CapEx. When, when spending was hit, they pause was a complete shutdown. Then a reboot cloud computer. You can pause spending for a little bit, make, might make the cycle longer in sales, but it's gonna be quickly fast turned on. So, so turning off spending with cloud is not that hard to do. You can hit pause and like check things out and then turn it back on again. So that's just general cloud economics with security though. I don't see the spending slowing down. Maybe the sales cycles might go longer, but there's no spending slow down in my mind that I see. And if there's any pause, it's more of refactoring, whether it's the crypto stuff or new things that Amazon has. >>So, so that's interesting. So a couple things there. I do think you're seeing a slight slow down in the, the, the ex the velocity of the spend. When you look at the leaders in spending velocity in ETR data, CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Palo Alto networks, they're all showing a slight deceleration in spending momentum, but still highly elevated. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's a, I think now to your other point, really interesting. What you're saying is cloud spending is discretionary. That's one of the advantages. I can dial it down, but track me if I'm wrong. But most of the cloud spending is with reserved instances. So ultimately you're buying those reserved instances and you have to spend over a period of time. So they're ultimately AWS is gonna see that revenue. They just might not see it for this one quarter. As people pull back a little bit, right. >>It might lag a little bit. So it might, you might not see it for a quarter or two, so it's impact, but it's not as severe. So the dialing up, that's a key indicator get, I think I'm gonna watch that because that's gonna be something that we've never seen before. So what's that reserve now the wild card and all this and the dark horse new services. So there's other services besides the classic AC two, but security and others. There's new things coming out. So to me, this is absolutely why we've been saying super cloud is a thing because what's going on right now in security and cloud native is there's net new functionality that needs to be in place to handle multiple clouds, multiple abstraction layers, and to do all these super cloudlike capabilities like Mike MongoDB, like these vendors, they need to up their gain. And that we're gonna see new cloud native services that haven't exist. Yeah. I'll use some hatchy Corp here. I'll use something over here. I got some VMware, I got this, but there's gaps. Dave, there'll be gaps that are gonna emerge. And I think that's gonna be a huge wild >>Cup. And now I wanna bring something up on the super cloud event. So you think about the layers I, as, uh, PAs and, and SAS, and we see super cloud permeating, all those somebody ask you, well, because we have Intuit coming on. Yep. If somebody asks, why Intuit in super cloud, here's why. So we talked about cloud being discretionary. You can dial it down. We saw that with snowflake sort of Mongo, you know, similarly you can, if you want dial it down, although transaction databases are to do, but SAS, the SAS model is you pay for it every month. Okay? So I've, I've contended that the SAS model is not customer friendly. It's not cloudlike and it's broken for customers. And I think it's in this decade, it's gonna get fixed. And people are gonna say, look, we're gonna move SAS into a consumption model. That's more customer friendly. And that's something that we're >>Gonna explore in the super cloud event. Yeah. And one more thing too, on the spend, the other wild card is okay. If we believe super cloud, which we just explained, um, if you don't come to the August 9th event, watch the debate happen. But as the spending gets paused, the only reason why spending will be paused in security is the replatforming of moving from tools to platforms. So one of the indicators that we're seeing with super cloud is a flight to best of breeds on platforms, meaning hyperscale. So on Amazon web services, there's a best of breed set of services from AWS and the ecosystem on Azure. They have a few goodies there and customers are making a choice to use Azure for certain things. If they, if they have teams or whatever or office, and they run all their dev on AWS. So that's kind of what's happened. So that's, multi-cloud by our definition is customers two clouds. That's not multi-cloud, as in things are moving around. Now, if you start getting data planes in there, these customers want platforms. If I'm a cybersecurity CSO, I'm moving to platforms, not just tools. So, so maybe CrowdStrike might have it dial down, but a little bit, but they're turning into a platform. Splunk trying to be a platform. Okta is platform. Everybody's scale is a platform. It's a platform war right now, Dave cyber, >>A right paying identity. They're all plat platform, beach products. We've talked about that a lot in the queue. >>Yeah. Well, great stuff, Dave, let's get going. We've got two days alive coverage. Here is a cubes at, in Boston for reinforc 22. I'm Shante. We're back with our guests coming on the queue at the short break.

>>From around the globe. If the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 20, 20 special coverage sponsored by AWS worldwide public sector. >>Okay. Welcome back everyone. To the cubes, virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, this is the cube virtual. I'm your host John farrier with the cube. The cube normally is there in person this year. It's all virtual. This is the cube virtual. We're doing the remote interviews and we're bringing in commentary and discussion around the themes of re-invent. And this today is public sector, worldwide public sector day. And the theme from Teresa Carlson, who heads up the entire team is to think big and look at the data. And I wanted to bring in a special cube alumni and special guests. Alan Cohen. Who's a partner at data collective venture capital or DCVC, um, which we've known for many, many years, founders, Matt OCO and Zachary Bogue, who started the firm, um, to over at about 10 years ago. We're on the really the big data wave and have grown into a really big firm thought big data, data, collective big ideas. That's the whole purpose of your firm. Alan. You're now a partner retired, retired, I mean a venture capitalist over at being a collective. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Great to see you as well. John, thanks for being so honest this morning. >>I love to joke about being retired because the VC game, it's not, um, a retirement for you. You guys made, you made some investments. Data collective has a unique, um, philosophy because you guys invest in essentially moonshots or big ideas, hard problems. And if I look at what's going on with Amazon, specifically in the public sector, genome sequencing now available in what they call the open data registry. You've got healthcare expanding, huge, you got huge demand and education, real societal benefits, uh, cybersecurity contested in space, more contention and congestion and space. Um, there's a lot of really hard science problems that are going on at the cloud. And AI are enabling, you're investing in entrepreneurs that are trying to solve these problems. What's your view of the big ideas? What are people missing? >>Well, I don't know if they're missing, but I think what I'd say, John, is that we're starting to see a shift. So if you look at the last, I don't know, forever 40, 50 years in the it and the tech industry, we took a lot of atoms. We built networks and data warehouses and server farms, and we, we kind of created software with it. So we took Adam's and we turned them into bets. Now we're seeing things move in the other direction where we're targeting bits, software, artificial intelligence, massive amount of compute power, which you can get from companies like, like AWS. And now we're creating better atoms. That means better met medicines and vaccines we're investor, um, and a company called abs Celera, which is the therapeutic treatment that J and J has, um, taken to market. Uh, people are actually spaces, a commercial business. >>If it's not a science fiction, novel we're investors in planet labs and rocket labs and compel a space so people can see right out. So you're sitting on your terrorists of your backyard from a satellite that was launched by a private company without any government money. Um, you talked about gene sequencing, uh, folding of proteins. Um, so I think the big ideas are we can look at some of the world's most intractable issues and problems, and we can go after them and turn them into commercial opportunities. Uh, and we would have been able to do that before, without the advent of big data and obviously the processing capabilities and on now artificial intelligence that are available from things like AWS. So, um, it's kind of, it's kind of payback from the physical world to the physical world, from the virtual world. Okay. >>Pella space was featured in the keynote by Teresa Carlson. Um, great to tie that in great tie in there, but this is the kind of hard problems. And I want to get your take because entrepreneurs, you know, it reminds me of the old days where, you know, when you didn't go back to the.com, when that bubble was going on, and then you got the different cycles and the different waves, um, the consumer always got the best kind of valuations and got the most attention. And now B to B's hot, you got the enterprise is super hot, mainly because of Amazon >>Sure. Into the Jordash IPO. Obviously this morning, >>Jordache IPO, I didn't get a phone call for friends and family and one of their top customers. They started in Palo Alto. We know them since the carton Jordache, these are companies that are getting massive, uh, zoom. Um, the post pandemic is coming. It's going to be a hybrid world. I think there's clear recognition that this some economic values are digital being digitally enabled and using cloud and AI for efficiencies and philosophy of new things. But it's going to get back to the real world. What's your, it's still hard problems out there. I mean, all the valuations, >>Well, there's always hard problems, but what's different now. And from a perspective of venture and, and investors is that you can go after really hard problems with venture scale level of investments. Uh, traditionally you think about these things as like a division of a company like J and J or general electric or some very massive global corporation, and because of the capabilities that are available, um, in the computing world, um, as well as kind of great scientific research and we fund more PhDs probably than any other, uh, any other type of background, uh, for, for founders, they can go after these things, they can create. Uh, we, uh, we have a company called pivot bio, uh, and I think I've spoken to you about them in the past, Sean, they have created a series of microbes that actually do a process called nitrogen fixation. Um, so it attaches the nitrogen to the roots of corn, sorghum and wheat. >>So you don't have to use chemical fertilizer. Well, those microbes were all created through an enormous amount of machine learning. And where did that machine learning come from? So what does that mean? That means climate change. That means more profitable farmers. Uh, that means water and air management, all major issues in our society where if we didn't have the computing capabilities we have today, we wouldn't have been able to do that. We clearly would have not been able to do that, um, as a venture level of investments to get it started. So I think what's missing for a lot of people is a paucity of imagination. And you have to actually, you know, you actually have to take these intractable problems and say, how can I solve them and then tear it apart to its actual molecules, just the little inside joke, right? And, and then move that through. >>And, you know, this means that you have to be able to invest in work on things. You know, these companies don't happen in two or three years or five years. They take sometimes seven, 10, 15 years. So it's life work for people. Um, but though, but we're seeing that, uh, you know, that everywhere, I mean, rocket lab, a company of ours out of New Zealand and now out of DC, which we actually launched the last couple of space, um, satellites, they print their rocket engines with a 3d printer, a metal printer. So think about that. How did all that, that come to bear? Um, and it started as a dangerous scale style of investments. So, you know, Peter Beck, the founder of that company had a dream to basically launch a rocket, you know, once a year, once a month, once a week, and eventually to once a day. So he's effectively creating a huge, um, huge upswing in the ability of people to commercialize space. And then what does space do? It gives you better observability on the planet from a, not just from a security point of view, but from a weather and a commerce point of view. So all kinds of other things that looked like they were very difficult to go after it now starts to become enabled. Yeah. >>I love the, uh, your investment in Capella space because I think that speaks volumes. And one of the things that the founder was talking about was getting the data down is the hard part. He he's up, he's up there now. He can see everything, but now I've got to get the data down because say, say the wildfires in California, or whether, um, things happening around the globe now that you have the, uh, the observation space, you got to get the data down there. This is the huge scale challenge. >>Well, let me, let me, let me give you something. That's also, so w you know, we are in a fairly difficult time in this country, right? Because of the covert virus, uh, we are going to maybe as quickly as next week, start to deliver, even though not as many as we'd like vaccines and therapeutics into this virus situation, literally in a year, how did all these things, I mean, obviously one of the worst public health crisis of our lifetimes, and maybe, you know, uh, of the past century, uh, how did that happen? How did it all day? Well, you know, some, I mean, the ability to use, um, computing power in, in assistance, in laboratory, in, in, uh, in, um, development of, of pharmaceutical and therapeutics is a huge change. So something that is an intractable problem, because the traditional methods of creating vaccines that take anywhere from three to seven years, we would have a much worse public health crisis. I'm not saying that this one is over, right. We're in a really difficult situation, but our ability to start to address it, the worst public health crisis in our lifetime is being addressed because of the ability of people to apply technology and to accelerate the ability to create vaccines. So great points, absolutely amazing. >>Let's just, let's just pause that let's double down on that and just unpack that, think about that for a second. If you didn't, and then the Amazon highlight is on Andy Jesse's keynote carrier, which makes air conditioning. They also do refrigeration and transport. So one IOT application leveraging their cloud is they may call it cold chain managing the value chain of the transport, making sure food. And in this case vaccine, they saw huge value to reduce carbon emissions because of it does the waste involved in food alone was a problem, but the vaccine, they had the cold, the cold, cold, cold chain. Can you hear me? >>Maybe this year, the cold chain is more valuable than the blockchain. Yeah. >>Cold don't think he was cold chain. Sounds like a band called play. Um, um, I had to get that in and Linda loves Coldplay. Um, but if you think about like where we are to your point, imagine if this hit 15 years ago or 20 years ago, um, you know, YouTube was just hitting the scene 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, so, you know, that kind of culture, we didn't have zoom education would be where we would be Skyping. Um, there's no bandwidth. So, I mean, you, you know, the, the bandwidth Wars you would live through those and your career, you had no bandwidth. You had no video conferencing, no real IOT, no real supply chain management and therapeutics would have taken what years. What's your reaction to, to that and compare and contrast that to what's on full display in the real world stage right now on digital enablement, digital transformation. >>Well, look, I mean, ultimately I'm an optimist because of what this technology allows you to do. I'm a realist that, you know, you know, we're gonna lose a lot of people because of this virus, but we're also going to be able to reduce a lot of, um, uh, pain for people and potentially death because of the ability to accelerate, um, these abilities to react. I think the biggest and the, the thing that I look for and I hope for, so when Theresa says, how do you think big, the biggest lesson I think we're going to we've learned in the last year is how to build resilience. So all kinds of parts of our economy, our healthcare systems, our personal lives, our education, our children, even our leisure time have been tested from a resilience point of view and the ability of technology to step in and become an enabler for that of resilience. >>Like there isn't like people don't love zoom school, but without zoom school, what we're going to do, there is no school, right? So, which is why zoom has become an indispensable utility of our lives, whether you're on a too much, or you've got zoom fatigue, does it really matter the concept? What we're going to do, call into a conference call and listen to your teacher, um, right in, you know, so how are you going to, you're going to do that, the ability to repurpose, um, our supply chain and, you know, uh, we, we, we see this, we're going to see a lot of change in the, in the global supply chain. You're going to see, uh, whether it's re domestication of manufacturing or tightening of that up, uh, because we're never going to go without PPE again, and other vital elements. We've seen entire industries repurposed from B2B to B to C and their ability to package, deliver and service customers. That is, those are forms of resilience. >>And, and, and, and taking that to the next level. If you think about what's actually happening on full display, and again, on my one-on-one with Andy Jassy prior to the event, and he laid this out on stage, he kind of talks about this, every vertical being disrupted, and then Dr. Matt wood, who's the machine learning lead there in Swami says, Hey, you know, cloud compute with chips now, and with AI and machine learning, every industry, vertical global industry is going to be disrupted. And so, you know, I get that. We've been saying that in the queue for a long time, that that's just going to happen. So we've been kind of on this wave of horizontal, scalability and vertical specialization with data and modern applications with machine learning, making customization really high-fidelity decisions. Or as you say, down to the molecule level or atomic level, but this is clear what, what I found interesting. And I want to get your thoughts because you have one been there, done that through many ways of innovation and now investor leading investor >>Investor, and you made up a word. I like it. Okay. >>Jesse talks about leadership to invent and reinvent. Can't fight gravity. You've got to get talent hungry for invention, solve real-world problems. Speed. Don't complexify. That's his message. I said to him, in my interview, you need a wartime conciliary cause he's a big movie buff. I quote the godfather. Yeah. Don't you don't want to be the Tom Hagen. You don't want to be that guy, right? You're not a wartime. Conciliary this is a time there's times in companies' histories where there's peace and there's wartime, wartime being the startup, trying to find its way. And then they get product market fit and you're growing and scaling. You're operating, you're hiring people to operate. Then you get into a pivot or a competitive situation. And then you got to get out there and, and, and get dirty and reinvent or re-imagine. And then you're back to peace. Having the right personnel is critical. So one of the themes this year is if you're in the way, get out of the way, you know, and some people don't want to hold on to hold onto the past. That's the way we did it before I built this system. Therefore it has to work this way. Otherwise the new ways, terrible, the mainframe, we've got to keep the mainframe. So you have a kind of a, um, an accelerated leadership, uh, thin man mantra happening. What is your take on this? Because, >>Sorry. So if you're going to have your F R R, if you're going to, if you are going to use, um, mob related better for is I'll share one with you from the final season of the Soprano's, where Tony's Prado is being hit over the head with a bunch of nostalgia from one of his associates. And he goes, remember, when is the lowest form of conversation and which is iconic. I think what you're talking about and what Andy is talking about is that the thing that makes great leadership, and what I look for is that when you invest in somebody or you put somebody in a leadership position to build something, 50% of their experience is really important. And 50% of it is not applicable in the new situation. And the hard leadership initiative has to understand which 50 matters in which 50 doesn't matter. >>So I think the issue is that, yeah, I think it is, you know, lead follow or get out of the way, but it's also, what am I doing? Am I following a pattern for a, for a, for an, a, for a technology, a market, a customer base, or a set of people are managing that doesn't really exist anymore, that the world has moved on. And I think that we're going to be kind of permanent war time on some level we're going to, we're going to be co we're because I think the economy is going to shift. We're going to have other shocks to the economy and we don't get back to a traditional normal any time soon. Yep. So I, I think that is the part that leadership in, in technology really has to, would adopt. And it's like, I mean, uh, you know, the first great CEO of Intel reminded us, right. Then only the paranoid survive. Right. Is that it's you, some things work and some things don't work and that's, that's the hard part on how you parse it. So I always like to say that you always have to have a crisis, and if there is no crisis, you create the crisis. Yeah. And, you know, >>Sam said, don't let a good crisis go to waste. You know? Um, as a manager, you take advantage of the crisis. >>Yeah. I mean, look, it wouldn't have been bad to be in the Peloton business this year. Right, too. Right. Which is like, when people stayed home and like that, you know, you know, th that will fade. People will get back on their bikes and go outside. I'm a cyclist, but you know, a lot more people are going to look at that as an alternative way to exercise or exercising, then when it's dark or when the weather is inclement. So what I think is that you see these things, they go in waves, they crest, they come back, but they never come back all the way to where they were. And as a manager, and then as a builder in the technology industry, you may not get like, like, like, okay, maybe we will not spend as much time on zoom, um, in a year from now, but we're going to still spend a lot of time on zoom and it's going to still be very important. >>Um, what I, what I would say, for example, and I, and looking at the COVID crisis and from my own personal investments, when I look at one thing is clear, we're going to get our arms around this virus. But if you look at the history of airborne illnesses, they are accelerating and they're coming every couple of years. So being able to be in that position to, to more react, more rapidly, create vaccines, the ability to foster trials more quickly to be able to use that information, to make decisions. And so the duration when people are not covered by therapeutics or vaccines, um, short, and this, that is going to be really important. So that form of resilience and that kind of speed is going to happen again and again, in healthcare, right. There's going to be in, you know, in increasing pressure across that in part of the segment food supply, right. I mean, the biggest problem in our food supply today is actually the lack of labor. Um, and so you have far, I mean, you know, farmers have had a repurpose, they don't sell to their traditional, like, so you're going to see increased amount of optimization automation and mechanization. >>Lauren was on the, um, keynote today talking about how their marketplaces collected as a collective, you know, um, people were working together, um, given that, given the big ideas. Well, let's, let's just, as we end the segment here, let's connect big ideas. And the democratization of, I mean, you know, the old expression Silicon Valley go big or go home. Well, I think now we're at a time where you can actually go big and stay and, and, and be big and get to be big at your own pace because the, the mantra has been thinking big in years, execute plan in months and execute weekly and month daily, you know, you can plan around, there's a management technique potentially to leverage cloud and AI to really think about bit the big idea. Uh, if I'm a manager, whether I'm in public sector or commercial or any vertical industry, I can still have that big idea that North star and then work backwards and figure that out. >>That sounds to the Amazon way. What's your take on how people should be. What's the right way to think about executing down that path so that someone who's say trying to re-imagine education. And I know a, some people that I've talked to here in California are looking at it and saying, Hey, I don't need to have silos students, faculty, alumni, and community. I can unify them together. That's an idea. I mean, execution of that is, you know, move all these events. So they've been supplying siloed systems to them. Um, I mean, cause people want to interact online. The Peloton is a great example of health and fitness. So there's, there's everyone is out there waiting for this playbook. >>Yeah. Unfortunately I, I had the playbook. I'd mail it to you. Uh, but you know, I think there's a couple of things that are really important to do. Maybe good to help the bed is one where is there structural change in an industry or a segment or something like that. And sorry to just people I'm home today, right? It's, everybody's running out of the door. Um, and you know, so I talked about this structural change and you, we talked about the structural change in healthcare. We talked about kind of maybe some of the structural change that's coming to agriculture. There's a change in people's expectations and how they're willing to work and what they're willing to do. Um, you, as you pointed out the traditional silos, right, since we have so much information at our fingertips, um, you know, people's responsibility as opposed to having products and services to deliver them, what they're willing to do on their own is really changed. >>Um, I think the other thing is that, uh, leadership is ultimately the most important aspect. And we have built a lot of companies in the industry based on forms of structural relations industry, um, background, I'm a product manager, I'm a sales person, I'm a CEO, I'm a finance person. And what we're starting to see is more whole thinking. Um, uh, particularly in early stage investors where they think less functionally about what people's jobs are and more about what the company is trying to get done, what the market is like. And it's infusing a lot more, how people do that. So ultimately most of this comes down to leadership. Um, uh, and, and that's what people have to do. They have to see themselves as a leader in their company, in their, in the business. They're trying to build, um, not just in their function, but in the market they're trying to win, which means you go out and you talk to a lot more people. >>You do a lot, you take a lot fewer things for granted. Um, you read less textbooks on how to build companies and you spend more time talking to your customers and your engineers, and you start to look at enabling. So the, we have made between machine learning, computer vision, and the amount of processing power that's available from things like AWS, including the services that you could just click box in places like the Amazon store. You actually have to be much more expansive in how you think about what you can get done without having to build a lot of things. Cause it's actually right there at your fingertips. Hopefully that kind of gets a little bit to what you were asking. >>Well, Alan, it's always great to have you on and great insight and, uh, always a pleasure to talk candidly. Um, normally we're a little bit more boisterous, but given how terrible the situation is with COVID while working at home, I'm usually in person, but you've been great. Take a minute to give a plug for the data collective venture capital firm. DCVC you guys have a really unique investment thesis you're in applied AI, computational biology, um, computational care, um, enterprise enablement. Geospatial is about space and Capella, which was featured carbon health, smart agriculture transportation. These are kind of like not on these are off the beaten path of like traditional herd mentality of venture capital. You guys are going after big problems. Give us an update on the firm. I know that firm has gotten bigger lately. You guys have >>No, I mean the further firm has gotten bigger, I guess since Matt, Zach started about a decade ago. So we have about $2.3 billion under management. We also have bio fund, uh, kind of a sister fund. That's part of that. I mean, obviously we are, uh, traditionally an early stage investor, but we have gone much longer now with these additional, um, um, investment funds and, and the confidence of our LPs. Uh, we are looking for bears. You said John, really large intractable, um, industry problems and transitions. Uh, we tend to back very technical founders and work with them very early in the creation of their business. Um, and we have a huge network of some of the leading people in our industry who work with us. Uh, we, uh, it's a little bit of our secret weapon. We call it our equity partner network. Many of them have been on the cube. >>Um, and these are people that work with us in the create, uh, you know, the creation of this. Uh, we've never been more excited because there's never been more opportunity. And you'll start to see, you know, you're starting to hear more and more about them, uh, will probably be a couple of years of report. We're a household name. Um, but you know, we've, we we're, we're washing deal flow. And the good news is I think more people want to invest in and build the things that we've. So we're less than itchy where people want to do what we're doing. And I think some of the large exits that starting to come our way or we'll attract more, more great entrepreneurs in that space. >>I really saw the data models, data, data trend early, you saw a Realty impacted, and I'll say that's front and center on Amazon web services reinvent this year. You guys were early super important firm. I'm really glad you guys exist. And you guys will be soon a household name if not already. Thanks for coming on. Right, >>Alan. Thanks. Thank you. Appreciate >>It. Take care. I'm John ferry with the cube. You're watching a reinvent coverage. This is the cube live portion of the coverage. Three weeks wall to wall. Check out the cube.net. Also go to the queue page on the Amazon event page, there's a little click through the bottom and the metadata is Mainstage tons of video on demand and live programming there too. Thanks for watching.

>> Hi, my name is Andy Clemenko. I'm a Senior Solutions Engineer at StackRox. Thanks for joining us today for my talk on labels, labels, labels. Obviously, you can reach me at all the socials. Before we get started, I like to point you to my GitHub repo, you can go to andyc.info/dc20, and it'll take you to my GitHub page where I've got all of this documentation, socials. Before we get started, I like to point you to my GitHub repo, you can go to andyc.info/dc20, (upbeat music) >> Hi, my name is Andy Clemenko. I'm a Senior Solutions Engineer at StackRox. Thanks for joining us today for my talk on labels, labels, labels. Obviously, you can reach me at all the socials. Before we get started, I like to point you to my GitHub repo, you can go to andyc.info/dc20, and it'll take you to my GitHub page where I've got all of this documentation, I've got the Keynote file there. YAMLs, I've got Dockerfiles, Compose files, all that good stuff. If you want to follow along, great, if not go back and review later, kind of fun. So let me tell you a little bit about myself. I am a former DOD contractor. This is my seventh DockerCon. I've spoken, I had the pleasure to speak at a few of them, one even in Europe. I was even a Docker employee for quite a number of years, providing solutions to the federal government and customers around containers and all things Docker. So I've been doing this a little while. One of the things that I always found interesting was the lack of understanding around labels. So why labels, right? Well, as a former DOD contractor, I had built out a large registry. And the question I constantly got was, where did this image come from? How did you get it? What's in it? Where did it come from? How did it get here? And one of the things we did to kind of alleviate some of those questions was we established a baseline set of labels. Labels really are designed to provide as much metadata around the image as possible. I ask everyone in attendance, when was the last time you pulled an image and had 100% confidence, you knew what was inside it, where it was built, how it was built, when it was built, you probably didn't, right? The last thing we obviously want is a container fire, like our image on the screen. And one kind of interesting way we can kind of prevent that is through the use of labels. We can use labels to address security, address some of the simplicity on how to run these images. So think of it, kind of like self documenting, Think of it also as an audit trail, image provenance, things like that. These are some interesting concepts that we can definitely mandate as we move forward. What is a label, right? Specifically what is the Schema? It's just a key-value. All right? It's any key and pretty much any value. What if we could dump in all kinds of information? What if we could encode things and store it in there? And I've got a fun little demo to show you about that. Let's start off with some of the simple keys, right? Author, date, description, version. Some of the basic information around the image. That would be pretty useful, right? What about specific labels for CI? What about a, where's the version control? Where's the source, right? Whether it's Git, whether it's GitLab, whether it's GitHub, whether it's Gitosis, right? Even SPN, who cares? Where are the source files that built, where's the Docker file that built this image? What's the commit number? That might be interesting in terms of tracking the resulting image to a person or to a commit, hopefully then to a person. How is it built? What if you wanted to play with it and do a git clone of the repo and then build the Docker file on your own? Having a label specifically dedicated on how to build this image might be interesting for development work. Where it was built, and obviously what build number, right? These kind of all, not only talk about continuous integration, CI but also start to talk about security. Specifically what server built it. The version control number, the version number, the commit number, again, how it was built. What's the specific build number? What was that job number in, say, Jenkins or GitLab? What if we could take it a step further? What if we could actually apply policy enforcement in the build pipeline, looking specifically for some of these specific labels? I've got a good example of, in my demo of a policy enforcement. So let's look at some sample labels. Now originally, this idea came out of label-schema.org. And then it was a modified to opencontainers, org.opencontainers.image. There is a link in my GitHub page that links to the full reference. But these are some of the labels that I like to use, just as kind of like a standardization. So obviously, Author's, an email address, so now the image is attributable to a person, that's always kind of good for security and reliability. Where's the source? Where's the version control that has the source, the Docker file and all the assets? How it was built, build number, build server the commit, we talked about, when it was created, a simple description. A fun one I like adding in is the healthZendpoint. Now obviously, the health check directive should be in the Docker file. But if you've got other systems that want to ping your applications, why not declare it and make it queryable? Image version, obviously, that's simple declarative And then a title. And then I've got the two fun ones. Remember, I talked about what if we could encode some fun things? Hypothetically, what if we could encode the Compose file of how to build the stack in the first image itself? And conversely the Kubernetes? Well, actually, you can and I have a demo to show you how to kind of take advantage of that. So how do we create labels? And really creating labels as a function of build time okay? You can't really add labels to an image after the fact. The way you do add labels is either through the Docker file, which I'm a big fan of, because it's declarative. It's in version control. It's kind of irrefutable, especially if you're tracking that commit number in a label. You can extend it from being a static kind of declaration to more a dynamic with build arguments. And I can show you, I'll show you in a little while how you can use a build argument at build time to pass in that variable. And then obviously, if you did it by hand, you could do a docker build--label key equals value. I'm not a big fan of the third one, I love the first one and obviously the second one. Being dynamic we can take advantage of some of the variables coming out of version control. Or I should say, some of the variables coming out of our CI system. And that way, it self documents effectively at build time, which is kind of cool. How do we view labels? Well, there's two major ways to view labels. The first one is obviously a docker pull and docker inspect. You can pull the image locally, you can inspect it, you can obviously, it's going to output as JSON. So you going to use something like JQ to crack it open and look at the individual labels. Another one which I found recently was Skopeo from Red Hat. This allows you to actually query the registry server. So you don't even have to pull the image initially. This can be really useful if you're on a really small development workstation, and you're trying to talk to a Kubernetes cluster and wanting to deploy apps kind of in a very simple manner. Okay? And this was that use case, right? Using Kubernetes, the Kubernetes demo. One of the interesting things about this is that you can base64 encode almost anything, push it in as text into a label and then base64 decode it, and then use it. So in this case, in my demo, I'll show you how we can actually use a kubectl apply piped from the base64 decode from the label itself from skopeo talking to the registry. And what's interesting about this kind of technique is you don't need to store Helm charts. You don't need to learn another language for your declarative automation, right? You don't need all this extra levels of abstraction inherently, if you use it as a label with a kubectl apply, It's just built in. It's kind of like the kiss approach to a certain extent. It does require some encoding when you actually build the image, but to me, it doesn't seem that hard. Okay, let's take a look at a demo. And what I'm going to do for my demo, before we actually get started is here's my repo. Here's a, let me actually go to the actual full repo. So here's the repo, right? And I've got my Jenkins pipeline 'cause I'm using Jenkins for this demo. And in my demo flask, I've got the Docker file. I've got my compose and my Kubernetes YAML. So let's take a look at the Docker file, right? So it's a simple Alpine image. The org statements are the build time arguments that are passed in. Label, so again, I'm using the org.opencontainers.image.blank, for most of them. There's a typo there. Let's see if you can find it, I'll show you it later. My source, build date, build number, commit. Build number and get commit are derived from the Jenkins itself, which is nice. I can just take advantage of existing URLs. I don't have to create anything crazy. And again, I've got my actual Docker build command. Now this is just a label on how to build it. And then here's my simple Python, APK upgrade, remove the package manager, kind of some security stuff, health check getting Python through, okay? Let's take a look at the Jenkins pipeline real quick. So here is my Jenkins pipeline and I have four major stages, four stages, I have built. And here in build, what I do is I actually do the Git clone. And then I do my docker build. From there, I actually tell the Jenkins StackRox plugin. So that's what I'm using for my security scanning. So go ahead and scan, basically, I'm staging it to scan the image. I'm pushing it to Hub, okay? Where I can see the, basically I'm pushing the image up to Hub so such that my StackRox security scanner can go ahead and scan the image. I'm kicking off the scan itself. And then if everything's successful, I'm pushing it to prod. Now what I'm doing is I'm just using the same image with two tags, pre-prod and prod. This is not exactly ideal, in your environment, you probably want to use separate registries and non-prod and a production registry, but for demonstration purposes, I think this is okay. So let's go over to my Jenkins and I've got a deliberate failure. And I'll show you why there's a reason for that. And let's go down. Let's look at my, so I have a StackRox report. Let's look at my report. And it says image required, required image label alert, right? Request that the maintainer, add the required label to the image, so we're missing a label, okay? One of the things we can do is let's flip over, and let's look at Skopeo. Right? I'm going to do this just the easy way. So instead of looking at org.zdocker, opencontainers.image.authors. Okay, see here it says build signature? That was the typo, we didn't actually pass in. So if we go back to our repo, we didn't pass in the the build time argument, we just passed in the word. So let's fix that real quick. That's the Docker file. Let's go ahead and put our dollar sign in their. First day with the fingers you going to love it. And let's go ahead and commit that. Okay? So now that that's committed, we can go back to Jenkins, and we can actually do another build. And there's number 12. And as you can see, I've been playing with this for a little bit today. And while that's running, come on, we can go ahead and look at the Console output. Okay, so there's our image. And again, look at all the build arguments that we're passing into the build statement. So we're passing in the date and the date gets derived on the command line. With the build arguments, there's the base64 encoded of the Compose file. Here's the base64 encoding of the Kubernetes YAML. We do the build. And then let's go down to the bottom layer exists and successful. So here's where we can see no system policy violations profound marking stack regimes security plugin, build step as successful, okay? So we're actually able to do policy enforcement that that image exists, that that label sorry, exists in the image. And again, we can look at the security report and there's no policy violations and no vulnerabilities. So that's pretty good for security, right? We can now enforce and mandate use of certain labels within our images. And let's flip back over to Skopeo, and let's go ahead and look at it. So we're looking at the prod version again. And there's it is in my email address. And that validated that that was valid for that policy. So that's kind of cool. Now, let's take it a step further. What if, let's go ahead and take a look at all of the image, all the labels for a second, let me remove the dash org, make it pretty. Okay? So we have all of our image labels. Again, author's build, commit number, look at the commit number. It was built today build number 12. We saw that right? Delete, build 12. So that's kind of cool dynamic labels. Name, healthz, right? But what we're looking for is we're going to look at the org.zdockerketers label. So let's go look at the label real quick. Okay, well that doesn't really help us because it's encoded but let's base64 dash D, let's decode it. And I need to put the dash r in there 'cause it doesn't like, there we go. So there's my Kubernetes YAML. So why can't we simply kubectl apply dash f? Let's just apply it from standard end. So now we've actually used that label. From the image that we've queried with skopeo, from a remote registry to deploy locally to our Kubernetes cluster. So let's go ahead and look everything's up and running, perfect. So what does that look like, right? So luckily, I'm using traefik for Ingress 'cause I love it. And I've got an object in my Kubernetes YAML called flask.doctor.life. That's my Ingress object for traefik. I can go to flask.docker.life. And I can hit refresh. Obviously, I'm not a very good web designer 'cause the background image in the text. We can go ahead and refresh it a couple times we've got Redis storing a hit counter. We can see that our server name is roundrobing. Okay? That's kind of cool. So let's kind of recap a little bit about my demo environment. So my demo environment, I'm using DigitalOcean, Ubuntu 19.10 Vms. I'm using K3s instead of full Kubernetes either full Rancher, full Open Shift or Docker Enterprise. I think K3s has some really interesting advantages on the development side and it's kind of intended for IoT but it works really well and it deploys super easy. I'm using traefik for Ingress. I love traefik. I may or may not be a traefik ambassador. I'm using Jenkins for CI. And I'm using StackRox for image scanning and policy enforcement. One of the things to think about though, especially in terms of labels is none of this demo stack is required. You can be in any cloud, you can be in CentOs, you can be in any Kubernetes. You can even be in swarm, if you wanted to, or Docker compose. Any Ingress, any CI system, Jenkins, circle, GitLab, it doesn't matter. And pretty much any scanning. One of the things that I think is kind of nice about at least StackRox is that we do a lot more than just image scanning, right? With the policy enforcement things like that. I guess that's kind of a shameless plug. But again, any of this stack is completely replaceable, with any comparative product in that category. So I'd like to, again, point you guys to the andyc.infodc20, that's take you right to the GitHub repo. You can reach out to me at any of the socials @clemenko or andy@stackrox.com. And thank you for attending. I hope you learned something fun about labels. And hopefully you guys can standardize labels in your organization and really kind of take your images and the image provenance to a new level. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas It's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2019. This is theCUBE's 7th year covering Amazon re:Invent. It's their 8th year of the conference. I want to just shout out to Intel for their sponsorship for these two amazing sets. Without their support we wouldn't be able to bring our mission of great content to you. I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman. We're here with the chief of AWS, the chief executive officer Andy Jassy. Tech athlete in and of himself three hour Keynotes. Welcome to theCUBE again, great to see you. >> Great to be here, thanks for having me guys. >> Congratulations on a great show a lot of great buzz. >> Andy: Thank you. >> A lot of good stuff. Your Keynote was phenomenal. You get right into it, you giddy up right into it as you say, three hours, thirty announcements. You guys do a lot, but what I liked, the new addition, the last year and this year is the band; house band. They're pretty good. >> Andy: They're good right? >> They hit the queen notes, so that keeps it balanced. So we're going to work on getting a band for theCUBE. >> Awesome. >> So if I have to ask you, what's your walk up song, what would it be? >> There's so many choices, it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. But, uh, maybe Times Like These by the Foo Fighters. >> John: Alright. >> These are unusual times right now. >> Foo Fighters playing at the Amazon Intersect Show. >> Yes they are. >> Good plug Andy. >> Headlining. >> Very clever >> Always getting a good plug in there. >> My very favorite band. Well congratulations on the Intersect you got a lot going on. Intersect is a music festival, I'll get to that in a second But, I think the big news for me is two things, obviously we had a one-on-one exclusive interview and you laid out, essentially what looks like was going to be your Keynote, and it was. Transformation- >> Andy: Thank you for the practice. (Laughter) >> John: I'm glad to practice, use me anytime. >> Yeah. >> And I like to appreciate the comments on Jedi on the record, that was great. But I think the transformation story's a very real one, but the NFL news you guys just announced, to me, was so much fun and relevant. You had the Commissioner of NFL on stage with you talking about a strategic partnership. That is as top down, aggressive goal as you could get to have Rodger Goodell fly to a tech conference to sit with you and then bring his team talk about the deal. >> Well, ya know, we've been partners with the NFL for a while with the Next Gen Stats that they use on all their telecasts and one of the things I really like about Roger is that he's very curious and very interested in technology and the first couple times I spoke with him he asked me so many questions about ways the NFL might be able to use the Cloud and digital transformation to transform their various experiences and he's always said if you have a creative idea or something you think that could change the world for us, just call me he said or text me or email me and I'll call you back within 24 hours. And so, we've spent the better part of the last year talking about a lot of really interesting, strategic ways that they can evolve their experience both for fans, as well as their players and the Player Health and Safety Initiative, it's so important in sports and particularly important with the NFL given the nature of the sport and they've always had a focus on it, but what you can do with computer vision and machine learning algorithms and then building a digital athlete which is really like a digital twin of each athlete so you understand, what does it look like when they're healthy and compare that when it looks like they may not be healthy and be able to simulate all kinds of different combinations of player hits and angles and different plays so that you could try to predict injuries and predict the right equipment you need before there's a problem can be really transformational so we're super excited about it. >> Did you guys come up with the idea or was it a collaboration between them? >> It was really a collaboration. I mean they, look, they are very focused on players safety and health and it's a big deal for their- you know, they have two main constituents the players and fans and they care deeply about the players and it's a-it's a hard problem in a sport like Football, I mean, you watch it. >> Yeah, and I got to say it does point out the use cases of what you guys are promoting heavily at the show here of the SageMaker Studio, which was a big part of your Keynote, where they have all this data. >> Andy: Right. >> And they're data hoarders, they hoard data but the manual process of going through the data was a killer problem. This is consistent with a lot of the enterprises that are out there, they have more data than they even know. So this seems to be a big part of the strategy. How do you get the customers to actually wake up to the fact that they got all this data and how do you tie that together? >> I think in almost every company they know they have a lot of data. And there are always pockets of people who want to do something with it. But, when you're going to make these really big leaps forward; these transformations, the things like Volkswagen is doing where they're reinventing their factories and their manufacturing process or the NFL where they're going to radically transform how they do players uh, health and safety. It starts top down and if the senior leader isn't convicted about wanting to take that leap forward and trying something different and organizing the data differently and organizing the team differently and using machine learning and getting help from us and building algorithms and building some muscle inside the company it just doesn't happen because it's not in the normal machinery of what most companies do. And so it always, almost always, starts top down. Sometimes it can be the Commissioner or CEO sometimes it can be the CIO but it has to be senior level conviction or it doesn't get off the ground. >> And the business model impact has to be real. For NFL, they know concussions, hurting their youth pipe-lining, this is a huge issue for them. This is their business model. >> They lose even more players to lower extremity injuries. And so just the notion of trying to be able to predict injuries and, you know, the impact it can have on rules and the impact it can have on the equipment they use, it's a huge game changer when they look at the next 10 to 20 years. >> Alright, love geeking out on the NFL but Andy, you know- >> No more NFL talk? >> Off camera how about we talk? >> Nobody talks about the Giants being 2 and 10. >> Stu: We're both Patriots fans here. >> People bring up the undefeated season. >> So Andy- >> Everybody's a Patriot's fan now. (Laughter) >> It's fascinating to watch uh, you and your three hour uh, Keynote, uh Werner in his you know, architectural discussion, really showed how AWS is really extending its reach, you know, it's not just a place. For a few years people have been talking about you know, Cloud is an operational model its not a destination or a location but, I felt it really was laid out is you talked about Breadth and Depth and Werner really talked about you know, Architectural differentiation. People talk about Cloud, but there are very-there are a lot of differences between the vision for where things are going. Help us understand why, I mean, Amazon's vision is still a bit different from what other people talk about where this whole Cloud expansion, journey, put ever what tag or label you want on it but you know, the control plane and the technology that you're building and where you see that going. >> Well I think that, we've talked about this a couple times we have two macro types of customers. We have those that really want to get at the low level building blocks and stitch them together creatively however they see fit to create whatever's in their-in their heads. And then we have the second segment of customers that say look, I'm willing to give up some of that flexibility in exchange for getting 80% of the way there much faster. In an abstraction that's different from those low level building blocks. And both segments of builders we want to serve and serve well and so we've built very significant offerings in both areas. I think when you look at microservices um, you know, some of it has to do with the fact that we have this very strongly held belief born out of several years of Amazon where you know, the first 7 or 8 years of Amazon's consumer business we basically jumbled together all of the parts of our technology in moving really quickly and when we wanted to move quickly where you had to impact multiple internal development teams it was so long because it was this big ball, this big monolithic piece. And we got religion about that in trying to move faster in the consumer business and having to tease those pieces apart. And it really was a lot of impetus behind conceiving AWS where it was these low level, very flexible building blocks that6 don't try and make all the decisions for customers they get to make them themselves. And some of the microservices that you saw Werner talking about just, you know, for instance, what we-what we did with Nitro or even what we did with Firecracker those are very much about us relentlessly working to continue to uh, tease apart the different components. And even things that look like low level building blocks over time, you build more and more features and all of the sudden you realize they have a lot of things that are combined together that you wished weren't that slow you down and so, Nitro was a completely re imagining of our Hypervisor and Virtualization layer to allow us, both to let customers have better performance but also to let us move faster and have a better security story for our customers. >> I got to ask you the question around transformation because I think that all points, all the data points, you got all the references, Goldman Sachs on stage at the Keynote, Cerner, I mean healthcare just is an amazing example because I mean, that's demonstrating real value there there's no excuse. I talked to someone who wouldn't be named last night, in and around the area said, the CIA has a cost bar like this a cost-a budget like this but the demand for mission based apps is going up exponentially, so there's need for the Cloud. And so, you see more and more of that. What is your top down, aggressive goals to fill that solution base because you're also a very transformational thinker; what is your-what is your aggressive top down goals for your organization because you're serving a market with trillions of dollars of spend that's shifting, that's on the table. >> Yeah. >> A lot of competition now sees it too, they're going to go after it. But at the end of the day you have customers that have a demand for things, apps. >> Andy: Yeah. >> And not a lot of budget increase at the same time. This is a huge dynamic. >> Yeah. >> John: What's your goals? >> You know I think that at a high level our top down aggressive goals are that we want every single customer who uses our platform to have an outstanding customer experience. And we want that outstanding customer experience in part is that their operational performance and their security are outstanding, but also that it allows them to build, uh, build projects and initiatives that change their customer experience and allow them to be a sustainable successful business over a long period of time. And then, we also really want to be the technology infrastructure platform under all the applications that people build. And we're realistic, we know that you know, the market segments we address with infrastructure, software, hardware, and data center services globally are trillions of dollars in the long term and it won't only be us, but we have that goal of wanting to serve every application and that requires not just the security operational premise but also a lot of functionality and a lot of capability. We have by far the most amount of capability out there and yet I would tell you, we have 3 to 5 years of items on our roadmap that customers want us to add. And that's just what we know today. >> And Andy, underneath the covers you've been going through some transformation. When we talked a couple of years ago, about how serverless is impacting things I've heard that that's actually, in many ways, glue behind the two pizza teams to work between organizations. Talk about how the internal transformations are happening. How that impacts your discussions with customers that are going through that transformation. >> Well, I mean, there's a lot of- a lot of the technology we build comes from things that we're doing ourselves you know? And that we're learning ourselves. It's kind of how we started thinking about microservices, serverless too, we saw the need, you know, we would have we would build all these functions that when some kind of object came into an object store we would spin up, compute, all those tasks would take like, 3 or 4 hundred milliseconds then we'd spin it back down and yet, we'd have to keep a cluster up in multiple availability zones because we needed that fault tolerance and it was- we just said this is wasteful and, that's part of how we came up with Lambda and you know, when we were thinking about Lambda people understandably said, well if we build Lambda and we build this serverless adventure in computing a lot of people were keeping clusters of instances aren't going to use them anymore it's going to lead to less absolute revenue for us. But we, we have learned this lesson over the last 20 years at Amazon which is, if it's something that's good for customers you're much better off cannibalizing yourself and doing the right thing for customers and being part of shaping something. And I think if you look at the history of technology you always build things and people say well, that's going to cannibalize this and people are going to spend less money, what really ends up happening is they spend less money per unit of compute but it allows them to do so much more that they ultimately, long term, end up being more significant customers. >> I mean, you are like beating the drum all the time. Customers, what they say, we encompass the roadmap, I got that you guys have that playbook down, that's been really successful for you. >> Andy: Yeah. >> Two years ago you told me machine learning was really important to you because your customers told you. What's the next traunch of importance for customers? What's on top of mind now, as you, look at- >> Andy: Yeah. >> This re:Invent kind of coming to a close, Replay's tonight, you had conversations, you're a tech athlete, you're running around, doing speeches, talking to customers. What's that next hill from if it's machine learning today- >> There's so much I mean, (weird background noise) >> It's not a soup question (Laughter) And I think we're still in the very early days of machine learning it's not like most companies have mastered it yet even though they're using it much more then they did in the past. But, you know, I think machine learning for sure I think the Edge for sure, I think that um, we're optimistic about Quantum Computing even though I think it'll be a few years before it's really broadly useful. We're very um, enthusiastic about robotics. I think the amount of functions that are going to be done by these- >> Yeah. >> robotic applications are much more expansive than people realize. It doesn't mean humans won't have jobs, they're just going to work on things that are more value added. We're believers in augmented virtual reality, we're big believers in what's going to happen with Voice. And I'm also uh, I think sometimes people get bored you know, I think you're even bored with machine learning already >> Not yet. >> People get bored with the things you've heard about but, I think just what we've done with the Chips you know, in terms of giving people 40% better price performance in the latest generation of X86 processors. It's pretty unbelievable in the difference in what people are going to be able to do. Or just look at big data I mean, big data, we haven't gotten through big data where people have totally solved it. The amount of data that companies want to store, process, analyze, is exponentially larger than it was a few years ago and it will, I think, exponentially increase again in the next few years. You need different tools and services. >> Well I think we're not bored with machine learning we're excited to get started because we have all this data from the video and you guys got SageMaker. >> Andy: Yeah. >> We call it the stairway to machine learning heaven. >> Andy: Yeah. >> You start with the data, move up, knock- >> You guys are very sophisticated with what you do with technology and machine learning and there's so much I mean, we're just kind of, again, in such early innings. And I think that, it was so- before SageMaker, it was so hard for everyday developers and data scientists to build models but the combination of SageMaker and what's happened with thousands of companies standardizing on it the last two years, plus now SageMaker studio, giant leap forward. >> Well, we hope to use the data to transform our experience with our audience. And we're on Amazon Cloud so we really appreciate that. >> Andy: Yeah. >> And appreciate your support- >> Andy: Yeah, of course. >> John: With Amazon and get that machine learning going a little faster for us, that would be better. >> If you have requests I'm interested, yeah. >> So Andy, you talked about that you've got the customers that are builders and the customers that need simplification. Traditionally when you get into the, you know, the heart of the majority of adoption of something you really need to simplify that environment. But when I think about the successful enterprise of the future, they need to be builders. how'l I normally would've said enterprise want to pay for solutions because they don't have the skill set but, if they're going to succeed in this new economy they need to go through that transformation >> Andy: Yeah. >> That you talk to, so, I mean, are we in just a total new era when we look back will this be different than some of these previous waves? >> It's a really good question Stu, and I don't think there's a simple answer to it. I think that a lot of enterprises in some ways, I think wish that they could just skip the low level building blocks and only operate at that higher level abstraction. That's why people were so excited by things like, SageMaker, or CodeGuru, or Kendra, or Contact Lens, these are all services that allow them to just send us data and then run it on our models and get back the answers. But I think one of the big trends that we see with enterprises is that they are taking more and more of their development in house and they are wanting to operate more and more like startups. I think that they admire what companies like AirBnB and Pintrest and Slack and Robinhood and a whole bunch of those companies, Stripe, have done and so when, you know, I think you go through these phases and eras where there are waves of success at different companies and then others want to follow that success and replicate it. And so, we see more and more enterprises saying we need to take back a lot of that development in house. And as they do that, and as they add more developers those developers in most cases like to deal with the building blocks. And they have a lot of ideas on how they can creatively stich them together. >> Yeah, on that point, I want to just quickly ask you on Amazon versus other Clouds because you made a comment to me in our interview about how hard it is to provide a service to other people. And it's hard to have a service that you're using yourself and turn that around and the most quoted line of my story was, the compression algorithm- there's no compression algorithm for experience. Which to me, is the diseconomies of scale for taking shortcuts. >> Andy: Yeah. And so I think this is a really interesting point, just add some color commentary because I think this is a fundamental difference between AWS and others because you guys have a trajectory over the years of serving, at scale, customers wherever they are, whatever they want to do, now you got microservices. >> Yeah. >> John: It's even more complex. That's hard. >> Yeah. >> John: Talk about that. >> I think there are a few elements to that notion of there's no compression algorithm for experience and I think the first thing to know about AWS which is different is, we just come from a different heritage and a different background. We ran a business for a long time that was our sole business that was a consumer retail business that was very low margin. And so, we had to operate at very large scale given how many people were using us but also, we had to run infrastructure services deep in the stack, compute storage and database, and reliable scalable data centers at very low cost and margins. And so, when you look at our business it actually, today, I mean its, its a higher margin business in our retail business, its a lower margin business in software companies but at real scale, it's a high volume, relatively low margin business. And the way that you have to operate to be successful with those businesses and the things you have to think about and that DNA come from the type of operators we have to be in our consumer retail business. And there's nobody else in our space that does that. So, you know, the way that we think about costs, the way we think about innovation in the data center, um, and I also think the way that we operate services and how long we've been operating services as a company its a very different mindset than operating package software. Then you look at when uh, you think about some of the uh, issues in very large scale Cloud, you can't learn some of those lessons until you get to different elbows of the curve and scale. And so what I was telling you is, its really different to run your own platform for your own users where you get to tell them exactly how its going to be done. But that's not the way the real world works. I mean, we have millions of external customers who use us from every imaginable country and location whenever they want, without any warning, for lots of different use cases, and they have lots of design patterns and we don't get to tell them what to do. And so operating a Cloud like that, at a scale that's several times larger than the next few providers combined is a very different endeavor and a very different operating rigor. >> Well you got to keep raising the bar you guys do a great job, really impressed again. Another tsunami of announcements. In fact, you had to spill the beans earlier with Quantum the day before the event. Tight schedule. I got to ask you about the musical festival because, I think this is a very cool innovation. It's the inaugural Intersect conference. >> Yes. >> John: Which is not part of Replay, >> Yes. >> John: Which is the concert tonight. Its a whole new thing, big music act, you're a big music buff, your daughter's an artist. Why did you do this? What's the purpose? What's your goal? >> Yeah, it's an experiment. I think that what's happened is that re:Invent has gotten so big, we have 65 thousand people here, that to do the party, which we do every year, its like a 35-40 thousand person concert now. Which means you have to have a location that has multiple stages and, you know, we thought about it last year and when we were watching it and we said, we're kind of throwing, like, a 4 hour music festival right now. There's multiple stages, and its quite expensive to set up that set for a party and we said well, maybe we don't have to spend all that money for 4 hours and then rip it apart because actually the rent to keep those locations for another two days is much smaller than the cost of actually building multiple stages and so we thought we would try it this year. We're very passionate about music as a business and I think we-I think our customers feel like we've thrown a pretty good music party the last few years and we thought we would try it at a larger scale as an experiment. And if you look at the economics- >> At the headliners real quick. >> The Foo Fighters are headlining on Saturday night, Anderson Paak and the Free Nationals, Brandi Carlile, Shawn Mullins, um, Willy Porter, its a good set. Friday night its Beck and Kacey Musgraves so it's a really great set of um, about thirty artists and we're hopeful that if we can build a great experience that people will want to attend that we can do it at scale and it might be something that both pays for itself and maybe, helps pay for re:Invent too overtime and you know, I think that we're also thinking about it as not just a music concert and festival the reason we named it Intersect is that we want an intersection of music genres and people and ethnicities and age groups and art and technology all there together and this will be the first year we try it, its an experiment and we're really excited about it. >> Well I'm gone, congratulations on all your success and I want to thank you we've been 7 years here at re:Invent we've been documenting the history. You got two sets now, one set upstairs. So appreciate you. >> theCUBE is part of re:Invent, you know, you guys really are apart of the event and we really appreciate your coming here and I know people appreciate the content you create as well. >> And we just launched CUBE365 on Amazon Marketplace built on AWS so thanks for letting us- >> Very cool >> John: Build on the platform. appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me guys, I appreciate it. >> Andy Jassy the CEO of AWS here inside theCUBE, it's our 7th year covering and documenting the thunderous innovation that Amazon's doing they're really doing amazing work building out the new technologies here in the Cloud computing world. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, be right back with more after this short break. (Outro music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation LeBron welcome to the cube studio I'm John Ferrier here in Palo Alto in our remote coverage of the tech industry we are in our quarantine crew here getting all the stories in the technology industry from all the thought leaders and all the newsmakers we've got a great story here about data data compliance and really about the platforms around how enterprises are using data I've got two great guests and some news to announce Kieran our CEO is the vice president of business development with elation and William Murphy vice president of technology alliances of big ID got some interesting news a integration partnership between the two companies really kind of compelling especially now as people have to look at the cloud scale what's happening in our world certainly in the new realities of kovin 19 and going forward the role of data new kinds of applications and the speed and agility are gonna require more and more automation more reality around making sure things are in place so guys thanks for coming on appreciate it Kieran William thanks for joining me thank you thank you so let's take a step back elation you guys have been on the cube many times we've been following you guys been a leader and Enterprise catalog a new approach it's a real new technology approach and methodology and team approach to building out the data catalogues so talk about the Alliance here why what's the news why you guys in Creighton is integration partnership well let me start and thank you for having us today you know as you know elation launched the data catalog a category seven years ago and even today we're acknowledging the leader as a leader in that space you know and but we really began with the core belief that ultimately data management will be drive driven more and more by business demand and less by information suppliers so you know another way to think about that is you know how people behave with data will drive how companies manage data so our philosophy put very simply is to start with people and not first not data and our customers really seem to agree with this approach and we've got close to 200 brands using our data you know our tool every single day to drive vibrant data communities and and foster a real data culture in the environment so one of the things that was really exciting to us is the in been in data privacy by large corporate customers to get their arms around this and you know we really strive to improve our ability to use the tool inside you know these enterprises across more use cases so the partnership that we're announcing with big ID today is really you know Big Ideas the leading modern data intelligence platform for privacy and what we're trying to do is to bring bring a level of integration between our two technologies so that enterprises in better manage and scale their their data privacy compliance capability William talked about big ID what you guys are doing you guys also have a date intelligence platform we've been covering gdpr for a very long time I once called I won't say it again because it wasn't really that complimentary but the reality has sit in and they and the users now understand more than ever privacy super important companies have to deal with this you guys have a solution take a minute to explain big-big ID and what you guys are doing yeah absolutely so our founders Demetri Shirota and Nimrod Beck's founded big idea in 2016 Sam you know gdpr was authored and the big reason there is that data changed and how companies and enterprises doubled data was changing pretty much forever that profound change meant that the status quo could no longer exist and so privacy was gonna have to become a day-to-day reality to these enterprises but what big ID realized is that to start to do to do anything with privacy you actually have to understand where your data is what it is and whose it is and so that's really the genesis of what dimitri nimrod created which which is a privacy centric data discovery and intelligence platform that allows our enterprise customers and we have over 70 customers in the enterprise space many within the Fortune hundred to be able to find classify and correlate sensitive data as they defined it across data sources whether its own Prem or in the cloud and this gives our users and kind of unprecedented ability to look into their data to get better visibility which if both allows for collaboration and also allows for real-time decision-making a big place with better accuracy and confidence that regulations are not being broken and that customers data is being treated appropriately great I'm just reading here from the release that I want to get you guys thoughts and unpack some of the concepts on here but the headline is elation strengthens privacy capabilities with big ID part nur ship empowering organizations to mitigate risks delivering privacy aware data use and improved adherence to data privacy regulations it's a mouthful but the bottom line is is that there's a lot of stuff to that's a lot of complexity around these rules and these platforms and what's interesting you mentioned discovery the enterprise discovery side of the business has always been a complex nightmare I think what's interesting about this partnership from my standpoint is that you guys are bringing an interface into a complex platform and creating an easy abstraction to kind of make it usable I mean the end of the day you know we're seeing the trends with Amazon they have Kendre which they announced and they're gonna have a ship soon fast speed of insights has to be there so unifying data interfaces with back-end is really what seems to be the pattern is that the magic going on here can you guys explain what's going on with this and what's the outcome gonna be for customers yeah I guess I'll kick off and we'll please please chime in I think really there's three overarching challenges that I think enterprises are facing is they're grappling with these regulations as as we'll talked about you know number one it's really hard to both identify and classify private data right it's it's not as easy as it might sound and you know we can talk a little bit more about that it's also very difficult to flag at the point of analysis when somebody wants to find information the relevant policies that might apply to the given data that they're looking to it to run an analysis on and lastly the enterprise's are constantly in motion as enterprises change and by new businesses and enter new markets and launch new products these policies have to keep up with that change and these are real challenges to address and you know with Big Idea halation we're trying to really accelerate that compliance right with the the you know the combination of our tools you know reduce the the cost and complexity of compliance and fundamentally keep up through a single interface so that users can know what to do with data at the point of consumption and I think that's the way to think about it well I don't know if you want to add something to that absolutely I think when Karen and I have been working on this for actually many months at this point but most companies don't have a business plan of just saying let's store as much data as possible without getting anything out of it but in order to get something out of it the ability to find that data rapidly and then analyze it so that decision makers make up-to-date decisions is pretty vital a lot of these things when they have to be done manually take a long time they're huge business issues there and so the ability to both automate data discovery and then cataloging across elation and big ID gives those decision makers whether the data steward the data analyst the chief data officer an ability to really dive deeper than they have previously with better speed you know one of the things that we've been talking about for a long time with big data as these data links and they're fairly easy to pull I mean you can put a bunch of data into a corpus and you you act on them but as you start to get across these silos there's a need for you know getting a process down around managing just not only the data wrangling but the policies behind it and platforms are becoming more complex can you guys talk about the product market fit here because there's sass involved so there's also a customer activity what's the product market fit that you guys see with this integration what are some of the things that you're envisioning to emerge out of this value proposition I think I can start I think you're exactly right enterprises have made huge investments in you know historically data warehouses data Mart's data lakes all kinds of other technology infrastructure aimed at making the data easier to get to but they've effectively just layered on to the problem so elations catalog has made it incredibly much more effective at helping organizations to find to understand trust to reuse and use that data so that stewards and people who know about the data can inform users who may need need to run a particular report or conduct a specific analysis can accelerate that process and compress the time the insights much much more than then it's are possible with today's technologies and if you if you overlay that on to the data privacy challenge its compounded and I think you know will it would be great for you to comment on what the data discovery capability it's a big ID do to improve that that even further yeah absolutely so as to companies we're trying to bridge this gap between data governance and privacy and and John as you mentioned there's been a proliferation of a lot of tools whether their data lakes data analysis tools etc what Big Idea is able to do is we're looking across over 70 different types of data platforms whether they be legacy systems like SharePoint and sequel whether they be on pram or in the cloud whether it's data at rest or in motion and we're able to auto populate our metadata findings into relations data catalog the main purpose there being that those data stewards and have access to the most authentic real time data possible so on the terms of the customer value they're going to see what more built in privacy aware features is its speed but you know what I mean the problem is compounded with the data getting that catalog and getting insights out of it but for this partnership is it speed to outcome what does the outcome that you guys are envisioning here for the customer I think it's a combination of speed as you said you know they can much more rapidly get up to speed so an analyst who needs to make a decision about specific data set whether they can use it or not and know at the point of analysis if this data is governed by policies that has been informed by big IDs so the elation catalog user can make a much more rapid decision about how to use that the second piece is the complexity and costs of compliance they can really reduce and start to winnow down their technology footprint because with the combination of the discovery that big ID provides the the the ongoing discovery the big ID provides and the enterprise it data catalog provided violation we give the framework for being able to keep up with these changes in policies as rules and as companies change so they don't have to keep reinventing the wheel every time so we think that there's a significant speed time the market advantage as well as an ability to really consolidate technology footprint well I'll add to that yeah yeah just one moment so elation when they helped create this marketplace seven years ago one of the goals there and I think we're Big Ideas assisting as well as the trusting confidence that both the users of these software's the data store of the analysts have and the data that they're using and then the the trust and confidence are building with their end consumers is much better knowing that there is the this is both bi-directional and ongoing continuously you know I've always been impressed with relations vision it's big vision around the role of the human and data and it's always been impressive and yeah I think the world spinning in that direction you starting to see that now William I want to get your thoughts with big id because you know one of the things is challenging out there from what we're hearing is you know people want to protect the sensitive data obviously with the hacks and everything else and personal information there's all kinds of regulation and believe me state by state nation by nation it's crazy complex at the same time they've got to ensure this compliance tripwires everywhere right so you have this kind of nested complex web of stuff and some real security concerns at the same time you want to make data available for machine learning and for things like that this is the real kind of things that the problem has twisted around so if I'm an enterprise I'm like oh man this is a pain in the butt so how are you guys seeing this evolve because this solution is one step in that direction what are some of the pain points what are some of the examples can you share any insights around how people are overcoming that because they want to get the data out there they want to create applications that are gonna be modern robust and augmented with whether it's augmented AI of some sort or some sort of application at the same time protecting the information and compliance it's a huge problem challenge your thoughts absolutely so to your point regulations and compliance measures both state-by-state and internationally they're growing I mean I think when we saw GDP our four years ago in the proliferation of other things whether it be in Latin America in Asia Pacific or across the United States potentially even at the federal level in the future it's not making it easier to add complexity to that every industry and many companies individually have their own policies in the way that they describe data whether what's sensitive to them is it patent numbers is it loyalty card numbers is it any number of different things where they could just that that enterprise says that this type of data is particularly sensitive the way we're trying to do this is we're saying that if we can be a force multiplier for the individuals within our organization that are in charge of the stewardship over their data whether it be on the privacy side on the security side or on the data and analytics side that's what we want to do and automation is a huge piece of this so yes the ID has a number of patents in the machine learning area around data discovery and classification cluster analysis being able to find duplicate of data out there and when we put that in conjunction with what elations doing and actually gave the users of the data the kind of unprecedented ability to curate deduplicate secure sensitive data all by a policy driven automated platform that's actually I think the magic gear is we want to make sure that when humans get involved their actions can be made how do I say this minimum minimum human interaction and when it's done it's done for a reason of remediation so they're there the second step not the first step here I'll get your thoughts you know I always riff on the idea of DevOps and it's a cloud term and when you apply that the data you talk about programmability scale automation but the humans are making calls whether you're a programmer and devops world or to a data customer of the catalog and halation i'm making decisions with my business I'm a human I'm taking action at the point of design or whatever this is where I think the magic can happen your thoughts on how this evolves for that use case because what you're doing is you're augmenting the value for the user by taking advantage of these things is is that right or am i around the right area yeah I think so I think the one way to think about elation and that analogy is that the the biggest struggle that enterprise business users have and we target the the consumers of data we're not a provider to the information suppliers if you will but the people who had need to make decisions every single day on the right set of data we're here to empower them to be able to do that with the data that they know has been given the thumbs up by people who know about the data connecting stewards who know about the subject matter at hand with the data that the analyst wants to use at the time of consumption and that powerful connection has been so effective in our customers that enabling them to do in our analytical work that they just couldn't dream of before so the key piece here is with the combination with big ID we can now layer in a privacy aware consumption angle which means if you have a question about running some customer propensity model and you don't know if you can use this data or that data the big ID data discovery platform informs the elation catalog of the usage capabilities of that given data set at the moment the analyst wants conduct his or her analysis with the appropriate data set as identified by the stewards and and as endorsed by the steward so that point in time is really critical because that's where the we can we can fundamentally shrink the decision sight yeah it's interesting and so have the point of attack on the user in this case the person in the business who's doing some real work that's where the action is yeah it's a whole nother meaning of actionable data right so you know this seems to where the values quits its agility really it's kind of what we're talking about here isn't it it is very agile on the differentiation between elation and big idea in what we're bringing to the market now is we're also bringing flexibility and you meant that the point of agility there is because we allow our customers to say what their policies are what their sense of gait is define that themselves within our platforms and then go out find that data classify and catalog at etc like that's giving them that extra flexibility the enterprise's today need so that it can make business decisions and faster and I actually operationalize data guys great job good good news it's I think this is kind of a interesting canary in the coal mine around the trends that are going on around how data is evolving what's next how you guys gonna go to market partnership obviously makes a lot of sense technical integration business model integration good fit what's next for you guys I'm sorry I mean I think the the great thing is that you know from the CEO down our organizations are very much aligned in terms of how we want to integrate our two solutions and how we want to go to market so myself and will have been really focused on making sure that the skill sets of the various constituents within both of our companies have the level of education and knowledge to bring these results to bear coupled with the integration of our two technologies well your thoughts yeah absolutely I mean between our CEOs who have a good cadence to care to myself who probably spend too much time on the phone at this point we might have to get him a guest bedroom or something alignments a huge key here ensuring that we've enabled our field to - and to evangelize this out to the marketplace itself and then doing whether it's this or our webinars or or however we're getting the news out it's important that the markets know that these capabilities are out there because the biggest obstacle honestly to adoption it's not that other solutions or build-it-yourself it's just lack of knowledge that it could be easier it could be done better that you could have you could know your data better you could catalog it better great final question to end the segment message to the potential customer out there what it what about their environment that might make them a great prospect for this solution is it is it a known problem is it a blind spot when would someone know to call you guys up in this to ship and leverage this partnership is it too much data as it's just too much many applications across geographies I'm just trying to understand the folks watching when it's an opportunity to call you guys welcome a relation perspective there that can never be too much data they the a signal that may may indicate an interest or a potential fit for us would be you know the need to be compliant with one or more data privacy regulations and as well said these are coming up left and right individual states in the in addition to the countries are rolling out data privacy regulations that require a whole set of capabilities to be in place and a very rigorous framework of compliance those those requirements and the ability to make decisions every single day all day long about what data to use and when and under what conditions are a perfect set of conditions for the use of a data catalog evacuation coupled with a data discovery and data privacy solution like big I well absolutely if you're an organization out there and you have a lot of customers you have a lot of employees you have a lot of different data sources and disparate locations whether they're on prime of the cloud these are solid indications that you should look at purchasing best-of-breed solutions like elation and Big Ideas opposed to trying to build something internally guys congratulations relations strengthening your privacy capabilities with the big ID partnership congratulations on the news and we'll we'll be tracking it thanks for coming I appreciate it thank you okay so cube coverage here in Palo Alto on remote interviews as we get through this kovat crisis we have our quarantine crew here in Palo Alto I'm John Fourier thanks for watching [Music] okay guys

>> from the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the cue Now, here's your host. Day Volonte. >> Hi, buddy. This is David Lantz. Welcome to this cube. Conversation with Dr Rico is the CMO of infinite out. It's still I still have a hard time saying that doctor or an engineer and I love having you on because we could talk storage. We could go deep and we could talk trends and marketing trends, too. But so welcome. Thanks for coming on my sled. So tell me what's new since the scale to win launch that you guys had. Tell me what you know. Is everything shipping Now What's the uptake been like with customers? And the reaction? Yeah, >> they're the reaction has been phenomenal. This, as you may recall, you were there. It was biggest launch in our history, which was fantastic. And the reaction has just been overwhelmingly positive, with customers with partners with analysts. Human scum cases with competitors is an interesting you know, we had a lot of things that were already shipping. They were an early customer release. There were a few things that we had started shipping in December on the things that we said we'd be coming in three Q. We G eight on time. So there, there now all generally available except the stuff that we talked about that would be available in 2020 which right now looks like it's on track. It's doing very, very well. >> So VM wear VM world eyes coming up later on this month, things are obviously changing. There was announcement recently that that VM wears gonna choir pivotal. So a little bit of financial engineering going on stock stock rose 77% on the day when the Dow dropped 800. So okay, the funny money. But things are changing in the V m where ecosystem you certainly saw we we This is our 10th year the M world. We go back and you hear Tod Nielsen back in the day, talk about for every dollar spent on a V M where lice and 15 was spent a Negro system, you know, we're kinda del izing vm wear now, which is sort of interesting, but I'm curious as to what you're seeing what that all means to you. I mean, still half a million 600,000 customers, you've got to be there you guys have great success at that show. So your thoughts what's going on? But VM world this year? Yeah, I >> kind of kind of loaded their first of all congratulations on the milestone. That's great. 10 years is super. Remember, probably seeing you with the 1st 1 there. Of course we knew each other longer. Uh, you know, and sure I get the incestuous, you know, money changing of hand there, I think I think it's it's good in one respect. You certainly CBM where, you know, making big inroads with VM wear on AWS. And this isn't now with Pivotal will be a good launching platform for Della's well, a svm where to be a little bit more in control of their own destiny. And it's certainly the way a lot of people are going. We're doing a lot of that ourselves. Not so much, in a sense. We don't have a cloud platform that we sell is a total encompassing platform. But of course, with new tricks cloud on big players and then certainly a large portion of our our customer base, our cloud service providers, they love our stuff. It helps them compete. It actually gives them in some respects, a competitive advantage, but VM world itself. Lots going on there. We have amplified our presence once again because VM where does represent a large portion of our customer base? So we're we're very proud of that. We're very proud to be a technology alliance partner of the M wears Andi. We're expecting to see a really good show in a really good cloud. A cloud crowd has they return back to their home base in San Francisco for us this year, it's It's gonna be a different experience. Were tellingme or of the software story, more of the portfolio story more about how you scare scale the win. We have a virtual presence this year, which is going to be very helpful in telling that story. Customers can come in and they can see more than just a ah box that in our world is really not important because it's for us. It's all about the software and stuff we do. We even in Booth Theater, we have some private meeting spaces well, to take people into a bigger, deeper drill down. But the virtual experience will allow them to touch and feel stuff that maybe they didn't get to do before, and that's gonna be kind of exciting as well. >> So you mentioned C S P s. We had Michael Gray thrive on a while back, and you know, he was saying that Look, he likes your product because it allows him to do other things. And don't worry about, you know, the old sort of tuning and managing and ableto re shift labor. I felt like that was an interesting discussion, primarily because you've got all these cloud service providers that everybody thought aws was just gonna kill. And if anything, it's elevated them. What are you seeing in the CSP space? Yeah, you know, >> Michael had a lot of interesting things to say that definitely love the fact that we enable multiple workloads without them having to do lots of cautious planning and re planning and shifting and shuffling. And we are seeing C S P is becoming more value. Add to a lot of businesses, especially the mid market and the smaller enterprise where people may want more than just infrastructure. You know, they don't they need that application level support and companies like thrive in some of our other really good customer, US signal and you know they're all capable of Flex Central's. Another one they're all capable of providing service is beyond the hardware they're capable of providing that application support the guidance and, in the case of Thrive, the cybersecurity guidance especial Really, which is really, really critical. So they're growing, and they're also, by the way, working with eight of us and Google and Azure to provide that capabilities well, when necessary. >> Well, that leads me to the sort of multi cloud discussion in our industry. We tend to have this alphabet soup of acronyms like another reason I like talking to you because we can kind of cut through that. And, you know, I love the marketing. I think marketing helps people understand what's going on differentiate. It gives you an indication of where the industry is going, and multi cloud is one of those things that I mean. I've kind of said it's a symptom of multi vendor and more so than a strategy. But increasingly it seems like it's becoming a strategy with customers, and you just gave an example of thrive working with multiple cloud vendors. Clearly, VM where wants to be in that business. What your thoughts on multi cloud and and hybrid. What does it mean for for infinite at What's your strategy there? You know, it's it's interesting because I >> just read an article the other day about you know, the definition of multi cloud on whether it's being abused and, you know, I I look at it as someone just trying to tell their story and give it. Give it some favor. I think at the end of the day, uh, every business is going to be talking to multiple platforms whether they want to or not. You know, there are many customers and companies out there, businesses who are in our customers who have gone the way of the cloud and repatriated. Certain things is they've they found that it it may work. It may not work, and there are many cloud providers who were trying to do things to accelerate migration of applications because they see that certain applications don't work. You know, we got one of the cloud providers buying Ah, now as provider, another one buying very recently, you know, an envy me based flash company to try to pick up those loose workloads where they might struggle today. But the end of the day everybody's going to be multiple. And whether it's because they're using cloud service is from from a software perspective or whether they just need to basically broker and maintain sort of that that independence so that they can maintain some cost control, availability, control, security, control and in some cases it will remain on premises. And some of things will be off just so they could get the applications closer to their end users. So you know what is multi Cloud? Multi Cloud really is just one of those terms that literally means what it says. It's your business running in multiple places. It doesn't have to necessarily be simultaneously by the same application. >> A big part of your value proposition is the simplicity. We've heard that from your customers, and you guys obviously push that out there. I want to ask you because you mentioned repatriation and you know, Cloud keeps growing like crazy. Sure, and the on prem not so much. You guys are smaller company. You're growing your stealing share, So yep. So maybe is that simplicity thing. Here's my question. So it's around automation. The cloud providers, generally an Amazon specifically have have driven automation. They've attacked the IittIe labor problem and they're able to charge for that on Dhe. So my question is, are you seeing that you're able to attack that labor problem in a similar sense and bring forth the value proposition to customers is Look, we can create a cloud like experience on Prem if you want MacLeod. Great. But if you want to stay on Prem, you're gonna get the benefit of being able to shift. Resource is two more strategic things and not have to worry about all this heavy, heavy lifting. You You seeing tangible evidence of that? >> We're seeing significant tangible evidence of that on and, you know, a couple of things. You know, you talk about growth, right? And I think when we did the launch, you know, only a few months ago we were at about 4.6 exabytes of capacity shipped. We just passed 5.1. That's some significant growth in in just a few months. It's like a 33% growth just from the same time last year, which is which is fairly significant. And of course, if you're familiar with the way we talk, you know you have an engineer is the head of marketing. We like to tell the truth. You know, we don't like to mask, do many things and confuse people. We don't like talking about effective storage because effective capacity doesn't really mean much to some people. So that's, you know, this is what we This is what we shipped and it's growing rapidly. And a lot of that is growing, in part because of the significance of the message and in part because of this need to control costs, contain costs and really operate in a more modern way. So get back to your comments about cloud and cloud operation. That's really what people want. People like the consumption model of cloud. They don't always like the cost on hidden costs. So simplifying that, but giving them the flexibility Thio have either an op X or cap ex that allows him to grow and shrink as they move workloads around. Because everybody grows even on Prem is growing. It's just, you know, it's the law of numbers, right? Cloud is growing, absolutely. But on Prem really is growing. And then the other thing I want is they want the operational flexibility. And that's what we talked about in our elastic data fabric. They don't like constantly having to re jigger and re balance workloads. Infinite box by itself. The platform of infinite Box takes away a lot of that mystery and magic, because it it kind of hides all of the complexity of that workload. And it, you know, we take the randomness out of the I o. I think maybe Craig Hibbert mentioned in his video is he was describing in detail how that happens. Remember Michael Gray talking about that as well, you know, So those those things come out in a single infinite box. But even if you said well, I still want to move my workload from, uh, you know this data center to an adjacent data center or perhaps a data center in another facility. Um, excuse me, Another city. So that's closer to the end user. Making that transparent to the applications is critically important. >> Yes, he talked about growth in about 1/2 a PETA bite. Sorry, half an exabyte in just a few months. A couple months? Really Right. That's that's growth. But I want to ask you about petabytes. Petabytes scales. Kind of key of companies that don't do that in a year day, eh? Exactly. So that's a petabytes scale. Is big party of marketing two questions? Why is that relevant? Or is that relevant to VM? Where customers? Why so and then, does it scare some people owe you? Asked a great question. >> It absolutely scared some people. And I know that there are some pundits out their industry pundits who who basically don't agree with our messaging. But this is this is the business problem that we we targeted the solve rate. Um, there are a lot of people out there who don't think they're petabytes scale yet because maybe they're individual applications aren't petabytes scale. But when you add it up, they get there and a lot of our customers are existing. Customers didn't start with infinite at at petabytes scale. They started a couple 100 terabytes, perhaps, but they're petabytes skill now. In fact, over 80% of the customers and systems that we have out there today or above the petty bite. We have customers that are in the tens of petabytes. We have customers that are in the hundreds of petabytes. They grow, they grow rapidly on. Why is that? Well, to two factors. Really. Number one, if you go back to. Probably when I first met you back when I had your hair, at least in quantity, way had way. Were kind of crusting that terabyte mark. Right? Right. And what was the problem? The problem was nobody could figure out how to deal with the performance. Nobody wanted to put that much risk on a single platform, so they couldn't deal with the availability. And they really didn't know how to deal with even the serviceability of that scale. So terabyte was a problem solved No, 25 years ago, and then things were rapidly from there. Now we're at the same juncture, just three orders of magnitude later. Right? >> Well, that's interesting, because, you know, you're right. People didn't want to put all all that capacity under an actuator that cost performance problems. They were concerned about, you know, just availability. And then two things happen so simultaneously, flash comes along. And, you know, you would say was put sort of a Band aid to some of the performance problems. Sure. And you guys came up with, like, this magic sauce to actually use spinning disc and get the same performance or better performance you would argue with flash. And so as a result, you were now able to do a lot Maur with the data, the concerns about that much date under the actuator somewhat attenuated because, I mean, you've got now so much data, you've got to do something that's almost that's flywheel effective. You've got tons of data machine intelligence and a I. Now, coming into the picture, you've got Cloud, which has been this huge tail when for the industry and for data creation in general. And so I see. You know, you see, like the I. D. C numbers and for forecasting growth of data and storage could be low. I mean, the curve could be bending, you know, kind of more than exponentially your thoughts on that. >> Yeah, it's an interesting, interesting observation. I think what it really comes down to is our storyline is math is greater than media, all right? And when you when you look at the flash being, you know, the panacea to performance it was just a step in the evolution, right? You go back and and say, spinning disc was the same solution to the performance problem 20 years ago. 25 years ago, even it was 5400 rpm discs and then very rapidly. Servers got faster. The interconnects got a little bit faster. They were still mostly differential. Scuzzy. There was 7200 rpm discs. And I promise you, by the way, that if you're running 5400 rpm desk, you install 7200 rpm. All yours performance problems will go away until the day you install it. And then it was 10,000 rpm discs and I was 15,000 rpm disc, and it still wasn't getting fast enough because, you know, you went to Fibre Channel One Gig Fibre channel and then to Geek Fibre, Channel four, Gig fibre, Channel eight, gig fibre channel. The unified connects got faster. The servers got faster. That was more cash on the servers. Then this thing came along, cuts called solid state disc. Right. And then it was it was SLC single layer cell technology. But don't worry about it's very expensive. Not a problem. You only need 4% of your application, right? Jerry? No, no, I'm sorry. percent. No, I'm sorry. 30%. What the heck? You know, M l c is now a little bit more reliable, so let's just make make it all slash. Right? So that was the end of the story, right? No. Servers continue to get faster. Uh, the media continue to get faster and denser, right? So now the interconnect isn't fast enough, So envy me. Is that the answer to life? The universe and everything? Well, wait. I got a better answer for your test. CIA storage class memory in parallel with that. By the way, there are some vendors out there who said that's still not fast enough. We want to put more d ram and the servers and do things in memory. We went in memory databases. I guarantee whatever you do from a media perspective on my personal guarantee to you, it's obsolete by the time you're up and running. By the time you get your applications migrated, configured and running with business value, it's already obsolete. Some vendors got something better coming out. The right answers. This stuff you talked about, the right answer is everything that you're doing for your business. APs. It's a it's a Mel. It's solving the problems in software and, you know, you said we use disc and make it fast. It's not despite itself, of course, right? It's D Bram. It's a lot of the Ram, which, by the way, is orders of magnitude faster than flash the NAND flash. And even if its ECM and still orders of magnitude faster than that, what we use the disk for today in the architecture is the cost factor. We take the random ization out in the flash and we take the >> end and in the in the diagram >> and we used the SAS in the back end to manage costs. But we use it in a way that it performs well, which is highly sequential, massively parallel. And we take full advantage of that Beck and Ben with to do that with that massive dear am front end. Our cash ratios are unparalleled in the industry and and we use it even more effectively that way. But if architecture already evolves, so if if SCM becomes more stable and becomes more cost effective, we can replace that that S S D layer with the cm. And if you know, if the economics of Q L C or something beyond that. Come down will replace the back end with that, do you? Do >> you ever look at what you're doing today as sort of a modern day symmetric. So I mean, a lot of things you just said. I mean, you've got a lot of memory. You've got a massive back end. You know, those were two of the characteristics of symmetric snow. Of course. Fast forward. Whatever. 30 years, right. But a lot of it was sort of intelligence and understanding. Sure. So how data works, is it Is it a fair sort of, or is it radically different? Well, in terms of mindset, I mean, I know the implementation is >> right, right? >> Yeah. I mean, it's not an unfair comparison. I mean, tiered storage was around before some metrics. Right? So it's certainly existed existed then, too. It was just at the time. It was a significant innovation course to layer at the time, right? A big cash front, ending some slower media and then taking advantage of the media on the back end. The big difference today is that if you look at what some metrics became through its Evolution's DMX and V Max and now Power Max. It's still tiered storage, you know, you still have some cash. That's that's for unending some faster media with power. Max, you're you're dealing now with us with an SS a back end. But what happened with those types of architectures is the tearing became more automated. But you're still moving information around. You're still moving Information from one said it This to another set of this leader in the cycle. You're still trying to promote things you know, to to the cash up front. We're doing it in real time. We're >> doing it by analyzing >> the data on the way it comes in. We're reassembling it again, taking the random ization out we're reassembling it and storing it across multiple disks in a way that it it increases our probability of pulling that information associated information back when we need it later. So there's there's no movement. Once its place, we don't have to replace it. You know it's already associated with other data that makes sense, and that gives us a lot of value. >> And secret sauce is the outcome of the secret sauce is you're able to very efficiently. Well, historically, you haven't been able to do a lot of garbage collection, a lot of data movement, and that just kills performance. There's >> really no garbage collection necessary in our in our world way. Also use very modern data structures or patents. Ah, lot of them on our neural cash Deal with the fact that we use a try data structure. So we're not using old fashioned hash tables and you know, l are you algorithms, You know it Sze very, very rapid traverse a ll of these trees >> and you're taking advantage of machine intelligence inside the software architecture. That really is some of the new innovation that really wasn't around to be able to take advantage of that 20 years ago. Maybe it was it was just not cost effective. Do the math was there, put it that the math of the mouth was there and >> there there There's been lots of evolutions of that over the years, a swell, but we continue to evolve and innovate. And, you know, one of the one of the cool things I think about working infinite at is is the multiple multiple generations of engineer where you've got people who understand that math they understand the real nuances of what it means to operate in a world of storage, which is quite a bit different than operating, saying networks or proceed be used because data integrity is paramount. There's lots of lots of things that go on there as well. But we also have younger generations, generations who like new challenges and like to re invent things so they find newer and greater ways to do things. >> This is exciting. So systems, thinkers and I mean server thinkers. I mean, people who understand, you know, systems designed it all the way through and and, you know, newbies who are super smart like you say, wanna learn and solve problems? Go back to the petabytes scale discussion, >> solve problems at petabytes scale, right? Even if the customer doesn't need that necessarily to solve that problem is critically important because even if you look at Les, just take, you know NFS, for example, most NFS systems deal with thousands of objects. Hundreds to thousands of objects are an F s. Implementation deals with billions, right? Do you need billions? How many applications you know that have billions of objects, But being able to do that in a way where performance doesn't degrade over time and also do it in a way where we say our nlm implementation isn't impacted by any any type of service events, we can take a note out, and it doesn't impact in ln There's no no degradation and performance. There's no impact or outage in service. All that's important. Even when you're dealing with smaller application sizes because they add up, they really do add up. He also brought up the point about, you know, density and actually intensity. Great. You know, back 25 years ago, when we were dealing with, you know, the first terabyte storage system, you know, how much how much stories did you have on your laptop? How much you have today, right? You know, you're probably more than a terabyte. They were laughing about putting things terabyte on the floor. And now you get more than a terabyte on your laptop. Things changing? >> Yeah. Um, I wanna ask you where you see the competition. We talked about all flash. We've had a long conversation, long, many conversations in the past about this, But you really, you know, the all flashy kind of described it as a Band Aid, essentially my words, but it was sort of a step function. Okay, great. Um, you have one company, really us who achieve escape velocity in that business in terms of pure But is that where you see in competition and you're seeing it from, you know, the hyper scale er's where you Yeah, you know, >> it's interesting. You know, you look at companies like, you know, we admire what they dio, especially with regard to marketing. They do a really good job of that. They also, um I have some really interesting ideas innovating the media, which is which is great. It helps us in the long run as well. Um, we just look at it as a component of our system, not these system, which makes it different. We don't really see the A f a. You know, the small scale a FAA is are the majority of our competition. We do run into them, but typically it the lower end of the opportunity. Even within the bigger companies that have competitors to those products, we run into them and smaller opportunities, not bigger opportunities where we run into them where there's a significant performance advantage as long as you don't mind the scale out approach to solving the problem. Unfortunately, when you're using a phase two skill out, you know you're putting all of the intelligence requirements on some poor storage administrator or system administrator to figure out what those where right, we take all of that away. So once it starts to scale, that's where we come in a plan. We don't see tons of competition there. Certainly, we're seeing competition from the clouds. And the competition from the clouds is more born of customer mandates and company mandates. Sometimes they I'm not quite sure that everybody knows why there who think to the cloud and we're problem they're trying to solve. But once they start to see a story that says, Hey, if the reasons are and you do understand those reasons, if the reasons are agility and financial flexibility and operational agility not as well as his acquisition agility, you know, we have answers to that and it starts to become a little bit more interesting and compelling. >> All right. One of the highlights of the M world each year is your dinner. Your customer I crashed in a couple of years ago when there were no other analysts there. And then last year again, it was in Vegas. Shows a nice steak house. This year we're in San Francisco, but But I had some great conversations with customers. I remember speaking to one customer about juxtaposing the sand thio to infinite debts platform. And you know the difference. The Sands taken off doing really well, but But he helped me understand the thinking from their standpoint of how they're applying it to solve problems and why v san wasn't a good fit. Your system was, um that was just one of many conversations last year had again other great conversations with customers. What do you do in this year? You have a customer dinner. We are? Yeah. We love to have you in and gave the invitation there. Yeah, the invitation. Is that definitely there? You know, a couple of >> years ago we didn't invite analysts, and you know what it was? It was a mistake. We and we learned that lesson into a large part. We credit you for for showing us how wrong we are. Our customers are very loyal. They're some of the most loyal in the industry. Don't take my word for it going. The gardener Pierre Insights and and look at our numbers compared to everybody else's any pick. Pick a vendor. We're at the top of the list with regard to not only the ratings but, more importantly, the customers willingness to recommend in every category, too. By the way, it's It's not just product quality and performance, and it's it's service support. It's easy doing business. It's an entirely different experience. So we love having the customers there, and the customers love having you there, too. They love having you and your appears in the industry there because they love learning from you and they love answering the questions and getting new insights. And we'd love to have you there. We're gonna be in the Mint this year. San Francisco meant not the not the current one that that's pretty coins, but the original historical site on duh. You know we have. We have invitations out thio to about 130 people because there's only so much room we have it at the event, but we're looking forward to a great time and a great meal and good conversation. >> That's great. Well, VM World is obviously one of the marquee events in our industry. It's the It's the fat middle of where the IittIe pro goes on dhe We're excited. Used to be Labor Day started the fall season. Now it's VM world. Well, Doc will see you out there. Thanks very much for your good to see you. All right. Excellent. All right. Thank you for watching everybody. This is day Volonte in the Cube will see you next time we'll see you at the M World 2019.

>> [Introduction Narrator] Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE, covering AWS Public Sector Summit brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit here in Washington D.C. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, John Furrier. We are welcoming to the program Shannon Kellogg. He is the V.P. Public Policy Americas at AWS. Thanks so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> Yes, I know. A CUBE veteran. >> Yeah, I feel like a CUBE alumni at this point. >> You are indeed, Shannon. >> Well, this is your show, I mean this is a policies front and center, here at AWS. You got Andy Jassy's Fireside Chat. >> Indeed. >> Kind of his first foray into revealing some of his political thoughts and his mission around what Amazon could do to change it. Pretty interesting time. >> Yeah, it was. I thought it was a really interesting Fireside Chat today with Andy and Teresa. You know, Andy talked about, of course, a lot of what's going on at AWS and some of the big picture challenges that our country faces, so it was great to hear him. >> Well, so that's what I want to get into right now, is that we are having this Summit with the backdrop of an emerging tech backlash, where not only are the regulators sharpening their focus on big tech, and a lot of political candidates saying they we want to break up these companies, the public becoming increasingly wary of big tech's power over us. Give us a little bit of a peek into your mindset and how AWS is thinking about all of these issues. >> Sure, well so I've been at Amazon for about seven years, and so I've seen the growth and evolution of the company firsthand. I've focused during that time frame mostly on working with our Amazon web services business, or AWS, which of course is all around us today. And you know we really, when I started working seven years ago here in Washington, D.C., a lot of people didn't even understand what cloud computing was. I remember one of my first conversations was going into a very senior policy maker on the Hill, and explaining to him what cloud was, and it was very hard to kind of understand during those days this transformation that had already begun if you're a policy maker. And there were a lot of questions back then around security and sort of how the cloud computing would fit within the security discussion. And there was even during that time frame a lot of national discussions around cyber security. And now that conversation has completely changed. More people know what cloud computing is, and now policy makers more and more are seeing cloud computing as part of the answer to help organizations and even governments strengthen their cyber security posture. And Andy talked a little bit about that today at the Fireside Chat. So the conversation has changed in areas like that, even though there are these broader, macro conversations going on as well. >> Well, Shannon, I want to get your thoughts, because you have a history in public policy and policy with tech, which is good. More than ever now, one of the things that we heard from Andy was the acceleration of change happening now. The ability to solve big problems now. New kinds of conversations and approaches are being invented to existing ways. So I got to ask you the question of how policy's modernizing with this modernization cloud trend and where it's remaining the same, so in some cases, the game is still the same, just kind of same wine, new bottle kind of thing, or is there areas that got to be changed. So, for instance, is there an approach that can still be evergreen today that's historically been working for government and private enterprises over the years, and where is it different where it needs to really change. >> Yeah. >> You've got to tease us and walk us through where that policy game is evolving to. >> Well when I started Amazon seven years ago, and started having conversations with customers and policy makers, like I was saying, there were still a lot of people even at the agency level who were experimenting very early on with cloud, and trying to figure out how they were going to use commercial cloud computing, right? And I would classify them as first movers. And so the conversation with them back then was really understanding what they were trying to do by moving a few applications to cloud. What kind of services they were trying to offer and new innovations that they were trying to offer. And so, the policy work that we did around that was much different than what we're doing today, because now you have so many organizations that are moving to cloud and you see this big push, not just in the U.S. but around the world toward IT modernization as an example. And if you're going to modernize your systems within government, then you actually ultimately have to do many different kinds of policy changes, unlike seven or eight years ago, right? And some of those include modernizing or updating your procurement policies and acquisition policies. Some of those include how you're budgeting and funding those initiatives, because there's a shift from capital expenditure into operational expenditure. Some of those policy conversations also involve updating your cyber security policies and your data protection policies. And so all of that is happening today, and we're seeing the federal government, Congress here wanting- >> Net new changes. Net new changes. >> Yeah, net new changes, and adapting, those policies and frameworks to how organizations are moving faster and faster to commercial cloud. >> Inside the policy beltway and even Silicon Valley, you've seen a lot of things that has worked and hasn't worked in the past. What do you think works for policy? If you look back histories, we've seen in the short history of technology and computer industries it's not that old, it's still young. We still have the internet, rise of the web, mobile computing, obviously spectrum and all these connectivity issues. What has worked that you think is relevant today that we should double down on and what should be taken away and reinvented? >> Well first of all, I think it's really important for, not just our company, and me as a leader at Amazon on public policy, but quite frankly, the entire industry, all of my peers, we all need to listen to what customers are trying to do to achieve their missions. And so when you think about whether it's NASA and the new initiatives that they have, to not only go back to the moon, but beyond to Mars, or you talk to health and human services or the Veterans Administration or some of our National Security agencies, they all have really, really important missions, so understanding what they are and how you can be supportive is very important. >> Well I mean, but there's all, I get that, that the customer's always right, listen to the customer, that's Andy's line, Amazon's line. But there's some potentially conflicting things, I'll just throw an example out there. Open government, open data creates more observability of data, hence more creativity, that's a theme that's getting a lot of traction in circles. And then customers want security and privacy. >> Right, so lots of unintended consequences to make all that. >> So as this new ground for a real, first-generational problem needs to be solved, you can't just pick one old way. Like you open it up, you're going to expose the data. >> Right. But I'm glad you mentioned open data, because it's actually one of the areas over the last few years that we've actually gotten some really important things done. There was federal legislation here in the U.S. that passed just, I think it was about 18 months ago, the first open data, comprehensive open data legislation. And we're seeing also other governments internationally kind of move in this direction as well. And I was part of those conversations, and other colleagues in my company were part of those conversations, took a lot of education. And took a lot of outreach to policy makers to get them to understand the benefits of open data and how technology could enable those benefits, which by the way, include getting more data sets so people can actually innovate on those data sets and build new businesses, which is a benefit and so- >> Keith Alexander's business, for instance, is all about visibility into threats, as one example. >> Right. But back to your question, what I found that was very helpful to policy makers is to give them a very baseline explanation of what open data was and how technology like cloud computing was enabling more access to that data or protections would need to be in place, but also how organizations and individuals and entrepreneurs were going to use that data, so having that conversation and educating. And I would say, John, that's sort of the new way of lobbying, the new conversations is to actually go in and try to understand, not only what's on a customer's mind, but what is on a policy maker's mind in terms of what do they really care about, and what are they trying to do to support whatever mission or to support whatever big initiative that matters to their district. >> So education is really the blocking and tackling tenet. You keep on pounding the education. Doing things in the open is interesting. You mentioned open data. We're in a world now in digital where everything's out in the open. You can't hide in the shadows. And so I wrote a story about Jedi, which through my sources, I essentially was referring to Oracle having this smear campaign against Amazon, which was supported by many sources. No one wanted to go on the record, so no other journalists reported it. But this is happening out in the open. These are old tactics of lobbying. >> They're old tactics, yeah. >> There's a sea change going on where open, turning the lights on, is more reality for policy lobbyists than ever before. Can you comment on your reaction to that? >> Sure. All anyone has to do, to look at some of the tactics that are being used by companies like Oracle, and we generally look at them as the legacy players, the legacy IT companies that are trying to protect their particular business model and their margins and the way that they're doing business, versus doing what I said earlier, which was listen to your customers, listen where they want to go, and try to align to that, right? Oracle is doing the exact opposite. It doesn't appear that they are listening to their customers at all. But putting Oracle aside as the only company doing this, there are other companies that are doing it as well, and if you look at the history of lobbying over the last 20 years, and you look at companies like Oracle or IBM, some of those players, they have done these kind of things previously, right? I mean, look at the original anti-trust case against Microsoft, or look at what Oracle was doing with Google and the EU on Fair Search. I mean, these are the same old tactics that these companies have used again and again and again, >> Beck and I were talking with the general Keith Alexander on this one point, where misinformation is so elevated now, and with machine learning and AI and openness, you can't do that anymore. There's no place to hide, so the transparency become a big part of processes. >> Right. >> Your reaction to how that's going to change, how policy is shaped, the participants and the actors involved, and potentially accelerated outcomes. Your thoughts on that. >> In terms of what the Department of Defense is trying to do, I think there's been a lot of transparency in that process, and there's been a lot of media coverage and light shown on what's going on there, so I don't probably need to go into those details. You know, I think it's really important for policy makers to always go out and get several perspectives. There are a lot of organizations out there that like policy makers and our general experience are trying to support the mission of these agencies that are trying to transform. And so if you looked at what the Department of Defense is trying to do or if you looked at what the intelligence community has already undergone several years of transformation with commercial cloud and emerging technologies, these are really important missions that policy makers want to support. >> John Furrier: And public policy- >> And you see that again and again and again. And other organizations. National Security think tanks, third party organizations and associations. They want to support that, too. So I would look to those voices versus listening to some of the same old tired IT legacy voices of the past. >> How do I know which entities are tainted or not tainted, because as someone who's not a big D.C. guy or tech guy, we got in through the cloud, and we're seeing all this stuff that's kind of, you see bad behavior and it's out in the open. Wow, I can't believe they're doing that. So the transparency is good, I get that, but how do I know- >> Transparency and learning from history. Look back and read about some of the tactics that have been used previously. I mean this is reported. >> So is there an organization out there that's like we're a think tank for the greater good of society. How do I know that they're not funded by someone? I mean, is there ways to detect- >> Various >> someone's reputation? Is there a working- >> Well there are organizations that are set up just to basically attack either other companies or another audience, and so those are generally known as astroturfing like organizations. >> I've seen those Google fair search, like they're really not a fair search, they're trying- >> And you can usually, if you look under the hood a little bit, you can usually figure out who those are. Not just those of us in the industry who have seen this playbook used again and again and again, by companies like Oracle and IBM, but also policy makers, if they just go out and talk to people they hear different perspectives, they're going to be able to figure out pretty quickly what is an astroturfing organization. Because they use the same old tactics that they've used for many years. >> I want to pick up on something that Andy Jassy was talking about during his Fireside Chat, and then he's talking about the culture of Amazon, which is the culture that tolerates failure, that allows people to go out and pursue these high-risk ideas which could be career-ending in other organizations. I want to hear what your thoughts are about the public sector, and I know the public sector is vast and not monolithic, but how would you describe the culture that you're seeing, the agencies you're working with, also the state and locals, the educational institutions, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, you bet. Well I think it's actually a really critical point in question, because we're seeing, at really every level of government that we work at, we're seeing people who are trying to be creative and innovate and offer new ways of services to citizens or to other constituencies that they serve, but we're also seeing cultural challenges, where you may have this particular group that is trying to come up with a new way to meet the mission, but then you have this other group over here, and they've always managed the data center, they've always been able to hug their box, their iron box, and see the blinking lights and get close to that, and it's hard sometimes for people who have done something for a certain amount of time in a certain way to necessarily embrace a new way of doing things. >> Rebecca Knight: Change is hard. >> For a couple of reasons. Change is hard, but also sometimes because of the, the fact is, if you look at really any level of government, there are always going to be IT failures, right? And there have been some doozies in the past, here at the federal level, as well as at the state and local level. And I would say consistently we've heard from government leaders who are trying to be first movers who are trying to be transformers, that sometimes they are tepid because of the failures of the past. And so then it gets them to step back and maybe go over to this group and do things the way they've always done them, versus take that risk. And what we need to do as citizens and as in our case, industry, and as a company like Amazon that is so customer-focused, we need to go out there and help them be creative, innovative, and have a voice. And that goes back to John's question about how policy has changed. That's the work I want to do. How do you help people who are really change agents who are trying to do the right thing for their constituents, do the right thing for their citizens, do the right thing for the National Security mission of the United States. Do the right thing for the war fighter who is out there executing the mission of the day. How do you help them achieve their goals and to be able to move forward and transform what they're doing. >> Well you got tail winds with the cloud, Andy pointed it out, we've been talking about it, but I think one thing that's key is, as you guys get the policy gurus together, as you lead the younger generation to shape these new territories, it's a - >> [ Shannon Kellogg] Thank you for calling me younger, John. >> Yeah, you're looking good, by the way. But you've been around the block, you've seen a few waves, and you've seen what works and what doesn't work, and when more than ever, younger majors are going to come in, whether they're from science, or different disciplines are going to be, you have to come and bring that interdisciplinary skill to really solve some of these world problems, I mean Andy's laid out a few. >> That's right. That's right. >> It's a critical... These are opportunities now that can be solved. >> Yeah, and by the way, that trend that you're pointing to is something that we're seeing not just domestically here in the U.S., but internationally. And we're seeing a lot of governments set up some kind of innovation units within government, so they bring in younger generation, but also entrepreneurs, folks that have been out in industry, creating and failing, and creating again and innovating, and bringing them in, and really trying to help them transform their missions. We're seeing that in so many different places now. >> Well, we're going to... you need to keep in touch, and check in on your progress and track the accountability of the industry. We've been really passionate about that, so thanks for sharing your vision and perspective. >> You bet. Thanks for having me on theCUBE again. It's really great to be back and to talk to you as always. >> Rebecca Knight: It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit. Stay tuned. (upbeat music)

>> [Introduction Narrator] Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE, covering AWS Public Sector Summit brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit here in Washington D.C. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, John Furrier. We are welcoming to the program Shannon Kellogg. He is the V.P. Public Policy Americas at AWS. Thanks so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> Yes, I know. A CUBE veteran. >> Yeah, I feel like a CUBE alumni at this point. >> You are indeed, Shannon. >> Well, this is your show, I mean this is a policies front and center, here at AWS. You got Andy Jassy's Fireside Chat. >> Indeed. >> Kind of his first foray into revealing some of his political thoughts and his mission around what Amazon could do to change it. Pretty interesting time. >> Yeah, it was. I thought it was a really interesting Fireside Chat today with Andy and Teresa. You know, Andy talked about, of course, a lot of what's going on at AWS and some of the big picture challenges that our country faces, so it was great to hear him. >> Well, so that's what I want to get into right now, is that we are having this Summit with the backdrop of an emerging tech backlash, where not only are the regulators sharpening their focus on big tech, and a lot of political candidates saying they we want to break up these companies, the public becoming increasingly wary of big tech's power over us. Give us a little bit of a peek into your mindset and how AWS is thinking about all of these issues. >> Sure, well so I've been at Amazon for about seven years, and so I've seen the growth and evolution of the company firsthand. I've focused during that time frame mostly on working with our Amazon web services business, or AWS, which of course is all around us today. And you know we really, when I started working seven years ago here in Washington, D.C., a lot of people didn't even understand what cloud computing was. I remember one of my first conversations was going into a very senior policy maker on the Hill, and explaining to him what cloud was, and it was very hard to kind of understand during those days this transformation that had already begun if you're a policy maker. And there were a lot of questions back then around security and sort of how the cloud computing would fit within the security discussion. And there was even during that time frame a lot of national discussions around cyber security. And now that conversation has completely changed. More people know what cloud computing is, and now policy makers more and more are seeing cloud computing as part of the answer to help organizations and even governments strengthen their cyber security posture. And Andy talked a little bit about that today at the Fireside Chat. So the conversation has changed in areas like that, even though there are these broader, macro conversations going on as well. >> Well, Shannon, I want to get your thoughts, because you have a history in public policy and policy with tech, which is good. More than ever now, one of the things that we heard from Andy was the acceleration of change happening now. The ability to solve big problems now. New kinds of conversations and approaches are being invented to existing ways. So I got to ask you the question of how policy's modernizing with this modernization cloud trend and where it's remaining the same, so in some cases, the game is still the same, just kind of same wine, new bottle kind of thing, or is there areas that got to be changed. So, for instance, is there an approach that can still be evergreen today that's historically been working for government and private enterprises over the years, and where is it different where it needs to really change. >> Yeah. >> You've got to tease us and walk us through where that policy game is evolving to. >> Well when I started Amazon seven years ago, and started having conversations with customers and policy makers, like I was saying, there were still a lot of people even at the agency level who were experimenting very early on with cloud, and trying to figure out how they were going to use commercial cloud computing, right? And I would classify them as first movers. And so the conversation with them back then was really understanding what they were trying to do by moving a few applications to cloud. What kind of services they were trying to offer and new innovations that they were trying to offer. And so, the policy work that we did around that was much different than what we're doing today, because now you have so many organizations that are moving to cloud and you see this big push, not just in the U.S. but around the world toward IT modernization as an example. And if you're going to modernize your systems within government, then you actually ultimately have to do many different kinds of policy changes, unlike seven or eight years ago, right? And some of those include modernizing or updating your procurement policies and acquisition policies. Some of those include how you're budgeting and funding those initiatives, because there's a shift from capital expenditure into operational expenditure. Some of those policy conversations also involve updating your cyber security policies and your data protection policies. And so all of that is happening today, and we're seeing the federal government, Congress here wanting- >> Net new changes. Net new changes. >> Yeah, net new changes, and adapting, those policies and frameworks to how organizations are moving faster and faster to commercial cloud. >> Inside the policy beltway and even Silicon Valley, you've seen a lot of things that has worked and hasn't worked in the past. What do you think works for policy? If you look back histories, we've seen in the short history of technology and computer industries it's not that old, it's still young. We still have the internet, rise of the web, mobile computing, obviously spectrum and all these connectivity issues. What has worked that you think is relevant today that we should double down on and what should be taken away and reinvented? >> Well first of all, I think it's really important for, not just our company, and me as a leader at Amazon on public policy, but quite frankly, the entire industry, all of my peers, we all need to listen to what customers are trying to do to achieve their missions. And so when you think about whether it's NASA and the new initiatives that they have, to not only go back to the moon, but beyond to Mars, or you talk to health and human services or the Veterans Administration or some of our National Security agencies, they all have really, really important missions, so understanding what they are and how you can be supportive is very important. >> Well I mean, but there's all, I get that, that the customer's always right, listen to the customer, that's Andy's line, Amazon's line. But there's some potentially conflicting things, I'll just throw an example out there. Open government, open data creates more observability of data, hence more creativity, that's a theme that's getting a lot of traction in circles. And then customers want security and privacy. >> Right, so lots of unintended consequences to make all that. >> So as this new ground for a real, first-generational problem needs to be solved, you can't just pick one old way. Like you open it up, you're going to expose the data. >> Right. But I'm glad you mentioned open data, because it's actually one of the areas over the last few years that we've actually gotten some really important things done. There was federal legislation here in the U.S. that passed just, I think it was about 18 months ago, the first open data, comprehensive open data legislation. And we're seeing also other governments internationally kind of move in this direction as well. And I was part of those conversations, and other colleagues in my company were part of those conversations, took a lot of education. And took a lot of outreach to policy makers to get them to understand the benefits of open data and how technology could enable those benefits, which by the way, include getting more data sets so people can actually innovate on those data sets and build new businesses, which is a benefit and so- >> Keith Alexander's business, for instance, is all about visibility into threats, as one example. >> Right. But back to your question, what I found that was very helpful to policy makers is to give them a very baseline explanation of what open data was and how technology like cloud computing was enabling more access to that data or protections would need to be in place, but also how organizations and individuals and entrepreneurs were going to use that data, so having that conversation and educating. And I would say, John, that's sort of the new way of lobbying, the new conversations is to actually go in and try to understand, not only what's on a customer's mind, but what is on a policy maker's mind in terms of what do they really care about, and what are they trying to do to support whatever mission or to support whatever big initiative that matters to their district. >> So education is really the blocking and tackling tenet. You keep on pounding the education. Doing things in the open is interesting. You mentioned open data. We're in a world now in digital where everything's out in the open. You can't hide in the shadows. And so I wrote a story about Jedi, which through my sources, I essentially was referring to Oracle having this smear campaign against Amazon, which was supported by many sources. No one wanted to go on the record, so no other journalists reported it. But this is happening out in the open. These are old tactics of lobbying. >> They're old tactics, yeah. >> There's a sea change going on where open, turning the lights on, is more reality for policy lobbyists than ever before. Can you comment on your reaction to that? >> Sure. All anyone has to do, to look at some of the tactics that are being used by companies like Oracle, and we generally look at them as the legacy players, the legacy IT companies that are trying to protect their particular business model and their margins and the way that they're doing business, versus doing what I said earlier, which was listen to your customers, listen where they want to go, and try to align to that, right? Oracle is doing the exact opposite. It doesn't appear that they are listening to their customers at all. But putting Oracle aside as the only company doing this, there are other companies that are doing it as well, and if you look at the history of lobbying over the last 20 years, and you look at companies like Oracle or IBM, some of those players, they have done these kind of things previously, right? I mean, look at the original anti-trust case against Microsoft, or look at what Oracle was doing with Google and the EU on Fair Search. I mean, these are the same old tactics that these companies have used again and again and again, >> Beck and I were talking with the general Keith Alexander on this one point, where misinformation is so elevated now, and with machine learning and AI and openness, you can't do that anymore. There's no place to hide, so the transparency become a big part of processes. >> Right. >> Your reaction to how that's going to change, how policy is shaped, the participants and the actors involved, and potentially accelerated outcomes. Your thoughts on that. >> In terms of what the Department of Defense is trying to do, I think there's been a lot of transparency in that process, and there's been a lot of media coverage and light shown on what's going on there, so I don't probably need to go into those details. You know, I think it's really important for policy makers to always go out and get several perspectives. There are a lot of organizations out there that like policy makers and our general experience are trying to support the mission of these agencies that are trying to transform. And so if you looked at what the Department of Defense is trying to do or if you looked at what the intelligence community has already undergone several years of transformation with commercial cloud and emerging technologies, these are really important missions that policy makers want to support. >> And public policy- >> And you see that again and again and again. And other organizations. National Security think tanks, third party organizations and associations. They want to support that, too. So I would look to those voices versus listening to some of the same old tired IT legacy voices of the past. >> How do I know which entities are tainted or not tainted, because as someone who's not a big D.C. guy or tech guy, we got in through the cloud, and we're seeing all this stuff that's kind of, you see bad behavior and it's out in the open. Wow, I can't believe they're doing that. So the transparency is good, I get that, but how do I know- >> Transparency and learning from history. Look back and read about some of the tactics that have been used previously. I mean this is reported. >> So is there an organization out there that's like we're a think tank for the greater good of society. How do I know that they're not funded by someone? I mean, is there ways to detect- >> Various >> someone's reputation? Is there a working- >> Well there are organizations that are set up just to basically attack either other companies or another audience, and so those are generally known as astroturfing like organizations. >> I've seen those Google fair search, like they're really not a fair search, they're trying- >> And you can usually, if you look under the hood a little bit, you can usually figure out who those are. Not just those of us in the industry who have seen this playbook used again and again and again, by companies like Oracle and IBM, but also policy makers, if they just go out and talk to people they hear different perspectives, they're going to be able to figure out pretty quickly what is an astroturfing organization. Because they use the same old tactics that they've used for many years. >> I want to pick up on something that Andy Jassy was talking about during his Fireside Chat, and then he's talking about the culture of Amazon, which is the culture that tolerates failure, that allows people to go out and pursue these high-risk ideas which could be career-ending in other organizations. I want to hear what your thoughts are about the public sector, and I know the public sector is vast and not monolithic, but how would you describe the culture that you're seeing, the agencies you're working with, also the state and locals, the educational institutions, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, you bet. Well I think it's actually a really critical point in question, because we're seeing, at really every level of government that we work at, we're seeing people who are trying to be creative and innovate and offer new ways of services to citizens or to other constituencies that they serve, but we're also seeing cultural challenges, where you may have this particular group that is trying to come up with a new way to meet the mission, but then you have this other group over here, and they've always managed the data center, they've always been able to hug their box, their iron box, and see the blinking lights and get close to that, and it's hard sometimes for people who have done something for a certain amount of time in a certain way to necessarily embrace a new way of doing things. >> Change is hard. >> For a couple of reasons. Change is hard, but also sometimes because of the, the fact is, if you look at really any level of government, there are always going to be IT failures, right? And there have been some doozies in the past, here at the federal level, as well as at the state and local level. And I would say consistently we've heard from government leaders who are trying to be first movers who are trying to be transformers, that sometimes they are tepid because of the failures of the past. And so then it gets them to step back and maybe go over to this group and do things the way they've always done them, versus take that risk. And what we need to do as citizens and as in our case, industry, and as a company like Amazon that is so customer-focused, we need to go out there and help them be creative, innovative, and have a voice. And that goes back to John's question about how policy has changed. That's the work I want to do. How do you help people who are really change agents who are trying to do the right thing for their constituents, do the right thing for their citizens, do the right thing for the National Security mission of the United States. Do the right thing for the war fighter who is out there executing the mission of the day. How do you help them achieve their goals and to be able to move forward and transform what they're doing. >> Well you got tail winds with the cloud, Andy pointed it out, we've been talking about it, but I think one thing that's key is, as you guys get the policy gurus together, as you lead the younger generation to shape these new territories, it's a - >> [ Shannon Kellogg] Thank you for calling me younger, John. >> Yeah, you're looking good, by the way. But you've been around the block, you've seen a few waves, and you've seen what works and what doesn't work, and when more than ever, younger majors are going to come in, whether they're from science, or different disciplines are going to be, you have to come and bring that interdisciplinary skill to really solve some of these world problems, I mean Andy's laid out a few. >> That's right. That's right. >> It's a critical... These are opportunities now that can be solved. >> Yeah, and by the way, that trend that you're pointing to is something that we're seeing not just domestically here in the U.S., but internationally. And we're seeing a lot of governments set up some kind of innovation units within government, so they bring in younger generation, but also entrepreneurs, folks that have been out in industry, creating and failing, and creating again and innovating, and bringing them in, and really trying to help them transform their missions. We're seeing that in so many different places now. >> Well, we're going to... you need to keep in touch, and check in on your progress and track the accountability of the industry. We've been really passionate about that, so thanks for sharing your vision and perspective. >> You bet. Thanks for having me on theCUBE again. It's really great to be back and to talk to you as always. >> It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit. Stay tuned. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the theCUBE. Now here's your host Stu Miniman. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a special theCUBE conversation here in our Boston area studio. Happy to welcome back to the program, Danny Cobb, who's with Dell EMC in the CTO office. >> Thanks Stu, great to see you here today. >> Great to see you too. So Danny, we're going to talk about a topic that like many things in the industry. It seems like it's something that happen overnight, but there's been a lot of hard work going on for quite a lot of years, even going back to heck when you and I worked together. >> Danny: That's right. >> A company use to be called EMC. NVMe, so first of all just bring everybody up to speed as to what you work on inside the Dell family. >> Danny: Sure, so my responsibility at now Dell EMC has been this whole notion of emergence systems. New technologies, new capabilities that are just coming into broad market adoption, broad readiness, technological feasibility, and those kinds of things. And then making sure that as a company we're prepared for their adoption and inclusion in our product portfolio. So it's a great set of capabilities a great set of work to be doing especially if you have a short attention span like I do. >> Danny, I spend a lot of time these days in the open source world. You talk about people are moving faster, people are trying lots of technologies. You've been doing some really hard work. The company and the industry in the standards world. What's the importance of standards these days, and bring us back to how this NVMe stuff started. >> So a great way to get everybody up to speed as you mentioned when you kicked off. NVMe, an overnight success, almost 11 years in the making now. The very first NVMe standard was about 2007. EMC joined the NVMe consortium in 2008 along with an Austin, Texas computer company called Dell. So Dell and EMC were both in the front row of defining the NVMe standard, and essentially putting in place a set of standards, a set of architectures, a set of protocols, product adoption capabilities, compatibility capabilities for the entire industry to follow, starting in 2008. Now you know from our work together that the storage industry likes to make sure that everything's mature, everything works reliably. Everything has broad interoperability standards and things like that. So since 2008, we've largely been about how do we continue to build momentum and generate support for a new storage technology that's based on broadly accepted industry standards, in order to allow the entire industry to move forward. Not just to achieve the most out of the flash revolution, but prepare the industry for coming enhancements to storage class memory. >> Yeah, so storage class memory you mentioned things like flash. One thing we've looked at for a long time is when flash rolled out. There's a lot of adoption on the consumer side first, and then that drove the enterprise piece, but flash today is still done through Ikusi interface with SaaS or Sata. And believe we're finally getting rid of when we go to NVMe. What some in the industry have called the horrible Ikusi stack. >> Danny: That's right. >> So explain to us a little bit about first, the consumer piece of where this fits first, and how it gets the enterprise. Where are we in the industry today with that? >> Yeah so as you pointed out a number of the new media technologies have actually gained a broad acceptance and a grounds full of support starting in the consumer space. The rapid adoption of mobile devices whether initially iPods and iPhones and things like that. Tablets where the more memory you have the more songs you carry, the more pictures you can take. A lot of very virtuous cycle type things occurred in the consumer space to allow flash to go from a fairly expensive perhaps niche technology to broad high volume manufacturing. And with high volume manufacturing comes much lower costs and so we always knew that flash was fast when we first started working on it at EMC in 2005. It became fast and robust when we shipped in 2008. It went from flash to robust to affordable with technologies like the move from SLC to MLC, and now TLC flash and the continuing advances of Moore's law. And so flash has been the beneficiary of high volume consumer economics along with our friend Moore's law over a number of years. >> Okay, so on the NVMe piece, your friends down in Round Rock in Dell. They've got not only the storage portfolio, but on the consumer side. There's pieces like my understanding NVMe already in the market for some part of this today, correct. >> That's right, I think one of the very first adoption scenarios for NVMe was in Lightweight laptop device. The storage deck could be more efficient. The fundamental number of gates in Silicon required to implement the stack was more efficient. Power was more efficient, so a whole bunch of things that were beneficial to a mobile high volume client device like an ultra light, ultra portable laptop made it a great place to launch the technology. >> Okay, and so bring us to what does that mean then for storage? Is that available in the enterprise storage today? >> Danny: Yeah. >> And where is that today and where is that today, and where are we going to see in the next years though? >> So here's the progression that the industry has more or less followed. If we went from that high volume, ultra light laptop device to very inexpensive M.2 devices that could be used in laptops and desktops more broadly, also gained a fair amount of traction with certain used cases and hyperscalers. And then as the spec matured and as the enterprise ecosystem around it, broader data integrity type solutions in the sili-case itself. A number of other things that are bread and butter for enterprise class devices. As those began to emerge, we've now seen NVMe move forward from laptop and client devices to high volume M.2 devices to full function, full capability dual ported enterprise NVMe devices really crossing over this year. >> Okay, so that means we're going to see not only in the customer pieces but should be seeing really enterprise roll out in I'm assuming things like storage arrays, maybe hyper converged. All the different flavors in the not too distant future. >> Absolutely right, the people who get paid to forecast these things when they look into their crystal balls. They've talked about when does NVMe get close enough to its predecessor SaaS to make the switch over be a no brainer. And often times, you get a performance factor where there's more value or you get a cost factor where suddenly that becomes the way the game is won. In the case of NVMe versus SaaS, both of those situations value and cost are more or less a wash right now across the industry. And so there are very few impediments to adoption. Much like a few years ago, there were very few impediment to adoption of enterprise SSDs versus high performance HDDs. The 15Ks and the 10K HDDs. Once we got to close enough in terms of cost parity. The entire industry went all flash over night. >> Yeah, it's a little bit different than say the original adoption of flash versus HDD. >> Danny: That's right. >> HDD versus SSD. Remember back, you had to have the algebra sheet. And you said okay, how many devices did I have.? What's the power savings that I could get out of that? Plus the performance that I had and then does this makes sense. It seems like this is a much more broadly applicable type of solution that we'll see. >> Danny: Right. >> For much faster adoption. >> Do you remember those days of a little goes a long way? >> Stu: Yeah. >> And then more is better? And then almost be really good, and so that's where we've come over what seems like a very few years. >> Okay, so we've only been talking about NVMe, the thing I know David Foyer's been look a lot from an architectural standpoint. Where we see benefit obviously from NVMe but NVMe over Fabrics is the thing that has him really excited if you talk about the architectures, maybe just explain a little bit about what I get with NVMe and what I'll get added on top with the over fabric piece of that. >> Danny: Sure. >> And what's that roll out look like? >> Can I tell you a little story about what I think of as the birth of NVMe over Fabrics? >> Stu: Please. >> Some of your viewers might remember a project at EMC called Thunder. And Thunder was PCI flash with an RDMA over ethernet front end on it. We took that system to Intel developers forum as a proof of concept. Around the corner from me was an engineer named Dave Min-turn, who's an Intel engineer. Who had almost exactly the same software stack up and running except it was an Intel RDMA capability nick and an Intel flash drive, and of course some changes to the Intel processor stack to support the used case that he had in mind. And we started talking and we realized that we were both counting the number of instructions from packet arriving across the network to bytes being read or written on the vis-tory fast PCI E device. And we realized that there has to be a better way, and so from that day, I think it was September 2013, maybe it was August. We actually started working together on how can we take the benefits of the NVMe standard that exists mapped onto PCI E. And then map those same parameters as cleanly as we possibly can onto, at that time ethernet but also InfiniBand, Fiber channel, and perhaps some other transports as a way to get the benefits of the NVMe software stack, and build on top of the new high performance capabilities of these RDMA capable interconnects. So it goes way back to 2013, we moved it into the NVMe standard as a proposal in 2014. And again three, four years later now, we're starting to see solutions roll out that begin to show the promise that we saw way back then. >> Yeah and the challenge with networking obviously is sounds like you've got a few different transport layers that I can use there. Probably a number of different providers. How baked is the standard? Where do things like hits the interoperability fit into the mix? When do customers get their hands on it, and what can they expect the roll out to be? >> We're clearly at the beginning of what's about to be a very, I think long and healthy future for NVMe over Fabrics. I don't know about you. I was at Flash Memory Summit back in August in Santa Clara and there were a number of vendors there starting to talk about NVMe over Fabrics basics. FPGA implementation, system on chip implementations, software implementations across a variety of stacks. The great thing was NVMe over Fabrics was a phrase of the entire show. The challenging thing was probably no two of those solutions interoperated with each other yet. We were still at the running water through the pipes phase, not really checking for leaks and getting to broad adoption. Broad adoption I think comes when we've got a number of vendors broad interoperability, multi-supplier, component availability and those things, that let a number of implementations exists and interoperate because our customers live in a diverse multi-vendor environment. So that's what it will take to go from interesting proof of concept technology which I think is what we're seeing in terms of early customers engagement today to broad base deployment in both existing fiber channel implementations, and also in some next generation data center implementations, probably beginning next year. >> Okay, so Danny, I talked to a lot of companies out there. Everyone that's involved in this (mumbles) has been talking about NVMe over Fabric for a couple of years now. From a user standpoint, how are they going to help sort this out? What will differentiate the check box. Yes, I have something that follows this to, oh wait this will actually help performance so much better. What works with my environment? Where are the pitfalls and where are the things that are going to help companies? What's going to differentiate the marketplace? >> As an engineer, we always get into the speeds and the feeds and the weeds on performance and things like that, and while those are all true. We can talk about fewer and fewer instructions in the networks stack. Fewer and fewer instructions in the storage stack. We can talk about more efficient Silicon implementations. More affinity for multi-processor, multi-core processing environments, more efficient operating system implementations and things like that. But that's just the performance side. The broader benefits come to beginning to move to more cost effective data center fabric implementation. Where I'm not managing an orange wire and a blue wire unless that's really what I want. There's still a number of people who want to manage their fiber channel and will run NVMe over that. They get the compatibility that they want. They get the policies that they want and the switch behavior that they want, and the provisioning model that they want and all of those things. They'll get that in an NVMe over Fabrics implementation. A new data center however will be able to go, you know what, I'm all in day one on 25, 5000 bit gigabit ethernet as my fundamental connection of choice. I'm going 400 gigabit ethernet ports as soon as Andy Beck-tels shine or somebody gives them to me and things like that. And so if that's the data center architecture model that I'm in, that's a fundamental implementation decision that I get to make knowing that I can run an enterprise grade, storage protocol over the top of that, and the industry is ready. My external storage is ready, my servers are ready and my workloads can get the benefit of that. >> Okay, so if I just step back for a second, NVMe sounds like a lot of it is what we would consider the backend in proving that NVMe over Fabrics helps with some of the front end. From a customer stand point, what about their application standpoint? Can they work with everything that they have today? Are there things that they're going to want to do to optimize for that? So the storage industry just take care of it for them. What do they think about today and future planning from an application standpoint? >> I think it's a matter of that readiness and what is it going to take. The good news and this has analogs to the industry change from HDD to SSDs in the first place. The good new is you can make that switch over today and your data management application, your database application, your warehouse, you're analytics or whatever. Not one line of software changes. NVMe device shows up in the block stack of your favorite operating system, and you get lower latency, more IOs in parallel. More CPU back for your application to run because you don't need it in the storage stack anymore. So you get the benefits of that just by changing over to this new protocol. For applications who then want to optimize for this new environment, you can start thinking about having more IOs in flight in parallel. You could start thinking about what happens when those IOs are satisfied more rapidly without as much overhead in and interrupt processing and a number of things like that. You could start thinking about what happens when your application goes from hundred micro-second latencies and IOs like the flash devices to 10 microsecond or one microsecond IOs. Would perhaps with some of these new storage class memory devices that are out there. Those are the benefits that people are going to see when they start thinking about an all NVMe stack. Not just being beneficial for existing flash implementations but being fundamentally required and mandatory to get the benefits of storage class memory implementations. So this whole notion of future ready was one of the things that was fundamental in how NVMe was initially designed over 10 years ago. And we're starting to see that long term view pay benefits in the marketplace. >> Any insight from the customer standpoint? Is it certain applications or verticals where this is really going to help? I think back to the move to SSDs. It was David Foyer who just wet around the entire news feed. He was like, database, database, database is where we can have the biggest impact. What's NVMe going to impact? >> I think what we always see with these things. First of all, NVMe is probably going to have a very rapid advancement and impact across the industry much more quickly than the transition from HDD to SSD, so we don't have to go through that phase of a little goes a long way. You can largely make the switch and as your ecosystem supports it as your vendor of choice supports it. You can make that switch and to a large extent have the application be agnostic from that. So that's a really good way to start. The other place is you and I have had this conversation before. If you take out a cocktail napkin and you draw an equation that says time equals money. That's an obvious place where NVMe and NVMe over Fabrics benefit someone initially. High speed analytics, real time, high frequency trading, a number of things where more efficiency. My ability to do more work per unit time than yours gives me a competitive advantage. Makes my algorithms better, exposes my IP in a more advantageous way. Those are wonderful places for these types of emerging technologies to get adopted because the value proposition is just slam dunk simple. >> Yeah, so running through my head are all the latest buzz words. Is everything at Wikibon when we did our predictions for this year, data is at the center of all of it. But machine learning, AI, heck blockchain, Edge computing all of these things can definitely be affected by that. Is NVMe going to help all of them? >> Oh machine learning. Incredible high bandwidth application. Wonderful thing stream data in, compute on it, get your answers and things like that. Wonderful benefits for a new squeaky clean storage stack to run into. Edge where often times, real time is required. The ability to react to a stimulus and provide a response because of human safety issue or a risk management issue or what have you. Any place that performance let's you get close, get you outer close to real time is a win. And the efficiency of NVMe has a significant advantage in those environments. So NVMe is largely able to help the industry be ready just at the time that new processing models are coming in such as machine learning, artificial intelligence. New data center deployment architectures like the Edge come in and the new types of telemetry and algorithms that they maybe running there. It's really a technology that's arriving just at the time that the industry needs it. >> Yeah, was reading up on some of the blogs on the Dell sites. Jeff Brew-dough said, "We should expect "to see things from 2018." Not expecting you to pre-announce anything but what should we be looking for from Dell and the Dell family in 2018 when it comes to this space? >> We're very bullish on NVMe. We've been pushing very, very hard in the standards community. Obviously, we have already shipped NVMe for a series of internal use cases in our storage platforms. So we have confidence in the technology, its readiness, the ability of our software stacks to do what they need to do. We have a robust, multi-supplier supply chain ready to go so that we can service our customers, and provide them the choice in capacities and capabilities and things like that that are required to bet your business, and long term supply assurance for and things like that. So we're seeing the next year or so be the full transition to NVMe and we're ready for it. We've been getting ready for a long time. Now, the ecosystem is there and we're predicting very big things in the future. >> Okay, so Danny, you've been working on this for 11 years. Give us just a little bit of insight. What you learned, what this group has learned from previous transitions? What's excited you the most? Give us a little bit of sausage making? >> What's been funny about this is we talk about the initial transition to flash, and just getting to the point where a little goes a long way. That was a three year journey. We started in 2005, we shipped in 2008. We moved from there. We flash in a raise as a tier, as a cache, as the places where a little latency, high performance media adds value and those things. Then we saw the industry begin to develop into some server centric storage solutions. You guys have been at the front of forecasting what that market looks like with software defined storage. We see that in technologies like ScaleIO and VSAN where their abilities to start using the media when it's resident in a server became important. And suddenly that began to grow as a peer to the external storage market. Another market San alternative came along with them. Now we're moving even further out where it seems like we use to ask why flash? And it will get asked that. Now it's why not flash? Why don't we move there? So what we've seen is a combination of things. As we get more and more efficient low latency storage protocols. The bottle neck stops being about the network and start being about something else. As we get more multi-core compute capabilities and Moore's law continues to tickle along. We suddenly have enough compute and enough bandwidth and the next thing to target is the media. As we get faster and faster more capable media such as the move to flash and now the move to storage class memory. Again the bottle neck moves away from the media, maybe back to something else in the stack. As I advance compute in media and interconnect, suddenly it becomes beneficial for me to rewrite my application or re-platform it, and create an entire new set of applications that exploit the current capabilities or the technologies. And so we are in that rinse, lather repeat cycle right now in the technology. And for guys like you and me who've been doing this for awhile, we've seen this movie before. We know how it hands. It actually doesn't end. There are just new technologies and new bottlenecks and new manifestations of Moore's law and Holmes law and Metcalfe's law that come into play here. >> Alright so Danny, any final predictions from you on what we should be seeing? What's the next thing you work on that you call victory soon right? >> Yes, so I'm starting to lift my eyes a little bit and we think we see some really good capabilities coming at us from the device physicists in the white coats with the pocket protectors back in the fabs. We're seeing a couple of storage class memories begin to come to market now. You're led by Intel and microns, 3D XPoint but a number of other candidates on the horizon that will take us from this 100 microsecond world to a 10 microsecond world maybe to a 100 nanosecond world. And you and I we back here talking about that fairly soon I predict. >> Excellent, well Danny Cobb always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for walking us through all of the pieces. We'll have lots more coverage of this technology and lots more more. Check out theCUBE.net. You can see Dell Technology World and lots of the other shows will be back. Thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)

>> Hello and welcome to a special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. We're here in Sundance 2018 at the Intel Tech Lounge for a panel discussion with experts on the topic of The New Creative. We believe a new creative renaissance is coming in application development and also artistry. The role of craft and the role of technology and software coming together at the intersection. You're seeing results in the gaming industry. Virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality. A new wave is coming and it's really inspiring, but also there's a few thought leaders at the front end of this big wave setting the trends and they're here with us in this special panel for The New Creative. Here with us is Brooks Browne, Global Director of VR at Starbreeze Studios, a lot to share there, welcome to the panel. Lisa Watt, VR Marketing Strategist at Intel, Intel powering a lot of these VR games here. And Winslow Porter, co-founder and director of The New Reality Company. Many submissions at Sundance. Not this year, but a ton of experience talk about the role of Sundance and artistry. And then we have Gary Radburn who's a director of commercial VR and AR from media within Dell, Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome to this panel. Lisa, I want to start off with you at Intel. Obviously the Tech Lounge here, phenomenal location on Main Street in Sundance. Really drawing a massive crowd. Yesterday it was packed. This is a new generation here and you're seeing a younger demographic. You're seeing savvier consumers. They love tech, but interesting Sundance is turning into kind of an artistry tech show and the game is changing, your thoughts on this new creative. >> Yeah, it's been amazing to watch. I've been here for, this is my third year coming back with VR experiences. And it's really just been incredible to see. Sundance has been on the leading edge of exploring new technologies for a long time and I think this is, I feel like you know this feels like the break out year really. I mean, it's been successful the last few years, but something about this year feels a little bit different. And I think maybe it's the people are getting more familiar with the technology. I think the artists are getting more comfortable with how to push the boundaries. And then we certainly are getting a lot out of seeing what they're doing and how we can improve our products in the future. >> We were talking yesterday, Lisa, about the dynamic at Sundance. And you were mentioning that you see a few trends popping out. What is the most important story this year for the folks who couldn't make it, who might be watching this video that you see at Sundance? Obviously it's a great day today, it's snowing, it's a white day, it's beautiful powder, greatest snow on Earth. But there's some trends that are emerging. We had a march this morning, the Women's March. You're seeing interesting signals. What's your view? >> I think there's a lot less desire to put up with subpar experiences. I mean I think everyone is really starting to push the boundaries, I mean, we saw a lot of 360 video which we love for a linear narrative. But they're really breaking out and really exploring what does it mean to have autonomy especially in the virtual reality experiences, a lot more social is coming to the forefront. And then a lot more exploration of haptics and the new ways of extending into more 4D effects, etc. So I think it's very very exciting. We're really excited to see all the new innovations. >> Winslow, I want to ask you, if you can comment, you've been an active participant in the community with submissions here at Sundance. This year you're kind of chilling out, hanging out. You've been on the front lines, what is your take on the vibe? What's the sentiment out there? Because you're seeing the wave coming, we're feeling it. It feels early. I don't know how early it is, and the impact to people doing great creative work. What's that take? >> Well yeah, it's kind of like VR years are like dog years, you know. Like a lot can happen in a month in the VR space. So I had a piece here in 2014 called Clouds. It was an interactive documentary about Creative Code, but that was back when there was only two other VR pieces. It's interesting to see how the landscape has changed. Because CCP Games had a piece there. An early version of E Valkyrie. And unfortunately in the last three months, they had to close their VR wing. So, and then Chris Milk also had a Lincoln piece with Beck. Which was a multi camera 360, actually it was a flash video that they recorded to the DK1. And so that was, seeing that everyone was, saw the potential. The technology was still pretty rudimentary or crude even, we should say. Before any tracking cameras. But every year people learned from previous Sundances and other festivals. And we're seeing that Sundance kind of raises the bar every year. It's nice that it's in January because then there's all these other festivals that sort of follow through with either similar content, newer versions of content that's here, or people have just sort of learned from what is here. >> So I got to ask you. You know, obviously Sundance is known for pushing the boundaries. You see a lot of creative range. You see a lot of different stuff. And also you mentioned the VR. We've seen some failures, you've seen some successes, but that's growth. This market has to have some failures. Failures create opportunities to folks who are reiterating in that. What are some of the things that you can point to that are a positive? Things that have happened whether they're failures and/or successes, that folks can learn from? >> Well, I think that this year there's a lot more social VR. We're connecting people. Even though they're in the same space, they're able to be in this new virtual world together. There's something amazing about being able to interact with people in real life. But as soon as you have sort of a hyper reality where people are able to be experiencing a Sufi ritual together. Things that you wouldn't normally... That they're not possible in the real world. And also, I think that there's issues with lines too. Obviously every year, but the more that we can have larger experiences with multiple people, the more people we can get through. And then more impact we can make on the audience. It's really... We were in claim jumper last year. And we could only get one person in every 10 minutes. And that makes things pretty tricky. >> And what are you doing at Sundance this year? You've obviously got some stuff going on with some of the work you've done. What's your focus? >> So yeah we have a company called New Reality Company where we produce Giant and Tree. It's part of a trilogy where Breathe is going to be the third part. We're going to be completing that by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the best thing about Sundance is the projects, but also the people. Being able to come here, check in, meet new people, see partners that we've been working with in the past. Also new collaborations, everywhere you turn, there's amazing possibilities abound. >> I want to talk about empathy and social. I mentioned social's interesting in these trends. I want to go to Brooks Brown, who's got some really interesting work with Starbreeze and the Hero project. You know, being a pioneer, you've got to take a few arrows in your back, you've got to blow peoples' minds. You're doing some pretty amazing work. You're in the front lines as well. What's the experience that you're seeing? Talk about your project and its impact. >> Well for us, we set out with our partner's ink stories, Navid Khonsari, a wonderful creative, and his entire team to try to create that intensely personal experience kind of moving the opposite direction of these very much social things. The goal, ultimately being to try to put a person inside of an event rather than a game style situation where you have objective A, B, or C. Or a film that's a very, very hyper linear narrative. What is that sort of middle ground that VR itself has as unique medium? So we built out our entire piece. Deep 4D effects, everything is actually physically built out so you have that tactility as you walk around. Things react to you. We have smell, temperature, air movement, the audio provided by our partners at DTS is exceptional. And the goal is ultimately to see if we put you in a situation... I'm doing my best not to talk about what that situation is. It's pretty important to that. But to watch people react. And the core concept is would you be a hero? All over the world, every day people are going through horrific stuff. We're fortunate because we're the kind of people who, in order to experience, say a tragedy in Syria, we're fortunate that we have to go to Park City, Utah and go in virtual reality to experience something that is tragic, real, and deeply emotional. And so our goal is to put people through that and come out of it changed. Traumatized actually. So that way you have a little bit more empathy into the real world into the actual experiences they went through. >> And what's the goal? This is interesting because most of the some stuff you see, the sizzle out there is look at the beautiful vistas and the beaches and the peaks and you can almost be there. Now you're taking a different approach of putting people in situations that probe some emotional responses. >> Yeah. It's a big deal to us. The way Navid like to put it, and I'm going to steal this from him, is you see a great deal of people prototyping on hardware and all of these things, and it's great cause we need that. We need to be able to stand on the shoulders of those giants to be able to do these things. But you see very few people really prototyping what is the concept of story as per VR? We've been doing, at Starbreeze, we've been doing location based for some time now and I've been getting thousands upon thousands of pitches. And whenever you get a pitch, you can pretty much identify, oh you come from a film background, you come from a games background. There's very few people who come down that middle line and go, well this is what VR is supposed to be. This is that interesting thing that makes it very deeply unique. >> What's the confluence and what's the trend in your mind as this changes? Cause you mentioned that gamers have affinity towards VR. We were talking about that before we came on the panel. You know, pump someone in mainstream USA or around the world who does email, does work, may not be there, you're seeing this confluence. How is that culture shifting? How do you see that? Cause you're bringing a whole nother dimension. >> We're trying to go back to a little bit, something about this Sundance being a little bit different. I think in general in VR, you're seeing this sort of shift from a few years ago it was all potentiality. And I think a lot of us, the projects were great, but a lot of us who work in VR were like oh I see what they're trying to do. And people like my dad would be like I don't. I don't see what they're trying to do. But that is shifting. And you're seeing a larger shift into that actuality where we're not quite there yet where we can talk about the experiences every day Americans are going to have. What is the real ready player one that we're actually going to have existing. We're not there yet, but we're much closer every time. And we're starting to see a lot of these things that are pushing towards that. Final question before I go to some of the speeds and feeds questions I want to get with Intel and Dell on is what is the biggest impact that you're seeing with your project and VR in general that will have the most important consequences for societal impact? >> Well, we were fortunate yesterday we had a number of people come through Hero. And a number of them simply actually couldn't handle it. Had to come out. We had to pull people out. The moment we took the headset off, they were, tears were streaming down their face. There's a level of emotional impact VR is extremely able to cut through. It's not that you're playing a character. It's not that you're in a separate world. You are you inside of that space. And that is a dangerous but very promising ability of VR. >> Winslow, could you take a stab at that, I'd like to get your reaction to that because people are trying to figure out the societal impact in a positive way and potentially negative. >> Yeah I mean, so with that, whenever you traumatize somebody else or have the ability to possibly re-traumatize somebody... In Giant, we made sure that we gave them a trigger warning because yeah these things can be intensely intimate or personal for somebody who already has that sort of baggage with them or could be living in a similar experience. In Giant, we witnessed the last moments of a family. As they're convincing their daughter that the approaching bomb blast is a giant that actually wants to play with her. And so we put haptics in the chair so the audience was also surprised. But we let them know that it was going to be taking place in a conflict zone. So if that was something that they didn't want to participate in, that they could opt out. But again, like we didn't know... We had to go and buy tissues like right off the bat because people were crying in the headset. And that's kind of a... It's an interesting problem to have for the sake of what are sort of the rules around that? But also it makes it more difficult to get people through the experience in a timely fashion as well. But yeah, but we're seeing that as things become more real then there's also a chance to possibly impact people. It's the... >> So it's social for you? You see it as a social impact? >> Well, I mean if everyone's experiencing the same thing that can be social, but again if it's a one on one experience, it's sort of like up to the filmmaker to make sure that they have the scruples that they are playing by the rules. Cause there's right now most every piece of content is being released through Oculus, Steam, or Viveport. But there will be... It's heavily regulated right now, but as soon as there's other means of distributing the content, it could take a different sort of face. >> Certainly some exciting things to grab on, great stuff. I want to get to the commercial angle. Then we're going to talk more about the craft and the role of artistry in the creating side of it. Gary, you're the commercial VR expert at Dell. You're commercializing this. You're making the faster machines. We want faster everything. I mean everyone... Anyone who's in VR knows that all the graphics cards. They know the speeds and feeds. They're totally hardware nerds. What's going on? Where's the action? >> Okay, that's such a large question. I mean we've had some great stuff here that I also want to comment on as well. But inside the commercial side, then yeah everybody wants bigger, stronger, better, faster. And to Winslow's comment about the dog years, that really puts the pressure on us to continue that innovation and working with partners like Intel to get those faster processors in there. Get faster graphics cards in there so that we can get people more emotionally bought in. We can do better textures, we can get more immersion inside the content itself. We're working a lot around VR in terms of opening peoples' eyes for societal impact. So VR for good for instance. Where we're taking people to far flung corners of the Earth. We work with Nat Geo explorer Mike Libecki to show the plight of polar bears in Greenland and how they're gradually becoming extinct for an edutainment and a learning tool. The boundaries are really being pushed in entertainment and film. That's always been the case. Consumer has always really pushed that technology. Commercial's always been a bit of a lagger. They want stability in what's going on. But the creation that's going on here is absolutely fantastic. It's taken what is essentially a prosumer headset and then taking it into that commercial world and lit it up. 360 video, its very inception, people are using it for training inside of their businesses and so that's now going out into businesses now. We're starting to see advances in 360 video with more compute power needed. Where, to the point about immersion and getting people emotionally bought in. Then you can start doing volumetric, getting them in there. And then we're also working with people like Dr. Skip Rizzo who was on our panel yesterday where we're starting to go into, okay, we can treat PTSD. Help people with autism, through the medium of VR. So again, that buys into... >> These are disruptive use cases that are legit? >> Yeah. >> These are big time, market moving, helping people... >> Absolutely. And that where it becomes really, really powerful. Yes, we want our companies to embrace it. Companies are embracing it for training. But when you start seeing the healthcare implications and people crying inside of headsets. That's effecting you deeply, emotionally. If you can make that for good, and change somebody's trigger points inside of PTSD, and the autism side of helping somebody in interview techniques to be able to be more self sufficient, it's absolutely awesome. >> This is the new creative. So what's your take on the new creative? What's your definition? Cause you're talking about a big range of use cases beyond just film making and digital artistry. >> Yeah, absolutely so the new creative is like with all the great work that's here, people are looking at film and entertainment. Now the world really is the oyster for all the creatives out there. People are clamoring out for modelers, artists, story tellers, story experiencers to be able to use that inside their commercial environments to make their businesses more effective. But they're not going to have a 360 video production company inside of their commercial organization. And it's then leveraging all of the creative here and all of the great stuff here. Which is really going to help the whole world a lot. >> Lisa, I want to get your thoughts on this cause you guys at Intel here at the Tech Lounge have a variety of demos, but there's a range of pro and entry level tools that can get someone up and running quickly to pro. And so there's a creative range not only just for digital artistry, but also business we're hearing. So what's the... Cause AI's involved in a lot of this too though. It's not just AI, it's a lot of these things. What's the Intel take on this. >> Well I think it's really an interesting time for us at Intel because one of the things that we have that I think probably nobody else has. We have this amazing slate of products that really cover the end to end process. Both from the creation side of the house all the way to the consumption side. And we talk a lot about our processors. We worked on an amazing project, a couple of huge scenes inside of the Sansar environment. Which is a great tool for really democratizing the creation of spaces. It's a cloud hosted service but it utilizes this amazing client-server architecture. We created four huge spaces in a matter of eight weeks to launch at CES. And some of the technologies that Gary was referring to just in pure processing power like two generations old processors were taking three hours to render just a small portion of a model where our newest generation Core i9s with our opting technology took that time to 15 minutes. So when we think about what we can do now, and those technologies are going to be available in even portable laptop form factors. We've got the piece where we were working here SPHERES. They were able to actually make some corrections and some tweaks basically immediately without having to send them off to some render farm. They were able to do those things. And I know Winslow has talked about that as well. What does it mean to you to be able to react real time. And be able to do your creative craft where you are and then be able to share that so readily. And then you know... I just think that's kind of an amazing equalizer. It's really democratizing the creation process. >> Okay the next question that begs for everyone to address is where are we in this progression? Early? What work needs to get done? Where are we holding back? Is it speeds and feeds? Is it the software? Is it the routines, libraries, art? Where's the bottleneck? Why isn't it going faster? Or is it going faster? >> I would, and I'm sure the team would agree here, I would say that one of the key things is the creator tools themselves, right. They are still somewhat cumbersome. We were talking to another filmmaker. He was like I can't even, I have to play the whole piece from the beginning, I can't just go in and edit, you know change control, being able to collaborate on these pieces with other people. I mean, if you can collaborate in a real world space, you should be able to also collaborate in VR and have change control and all those sorts of things that are necessary to the iteration of a project. So we're trying to work with our software partners. They're all doing a really great job of trying to iterate that, but it's going to take some time. I mean I think that's probably the bigger thing that's holding everything back. We're going to be right there with the processing power and the other technologies that we bring to the table. OEM partners are going to be right there with the best devices. I really think it's something we've all got to push for as far as those tools getting better. >> Brooks, comment on anything? You're in the... >> So for me, the thing that's holding back VR in general is actually the art form itself. One of the great challenges, if you look back, at say the history of film... We're at Sundance, so it's probably fairly apropo. Very early on in the early movies, aside from penny arcade machines that you'd actually stare at, they were 10 minute almost like plays that people would go to almost a playhouse and they'd watch this thing. There were not cuts, there were no angles. It was a single wide shot. Great Train Robbery came around and there was this crazy thing they did called an edit. Where they spliced film together. And if you go back and you read, and they did these dolly shots. People will have no idea what they're watching. There's no way people will be able to follow that. Like people were not happy with it at the time. Now it's stuff that children do on their iMacs at home. They do iMacs all the time, they do it on their iPhones, on their Android devices. These are normal languages of film that we have. VR doesn't have that yet. And there's not a great deal of effort being made in that direction. There's people here doing that. So I'm kind of speaking in the middle of the group, but outside of these people, there's only a handful who are really doing that and it's a significant challenge. When people who are the mainstream consumer put on a VR headset, it needs to be more than just a magic trick where they go oh that's cool. And that tends to be the vast majority of experiences. So what is the thing that is going to make someone go oh I get why we have VR as a medium. And we're not there yet. We're in the direction, but that's >> So you mentioned earlier the point where you can tell if someone's from film or gaming or whatever when you talk to them about VR. Who is the future VR developer? Is it a filmmaker? Is it a gamer? Is it a digital artist? What is this evolving? >> It's a kid in his basement who no one knows and is screwing around with it and is going to do something that everyone thinks is stupid. Like, it's going to be that. Basically every major leap in gaming is kind of the same thing. It's when we understand how ludonarrative dissonance works inside of telling how people move around a space. It's about how we do Dutch angle suddenly in film. And these things get invented. It's going to be some kid who's just screwing around who doesn't have the baggage of the language of film. A lot of the people I know in VR have been fortunate to work in film, in games and interactive or web dev. So you come from a lot of places but someone's going to come along who has none of that baggage. And they're going to be... >> Well you guys are pioneers and you're doing it. So for the first person out there that's in their basement, that inspirational soundbite or comment. How can you guys talk to that person or that group? Because this is the democratization, this is what's happening. It's not the gatekeepers. It's real creatives out there that could come from anywhere. YouTube generation, Twitch generation, gaming. What would you say to that person to motivate them and to give them that passion? >> Well it's only going to get easier, faster, cheaper, all these things are happening. But again, yeah I totally agree with what Brooks said. It's really about the culture and about educating the audience and getting them up to speed. There are some VR experiences that as soon as they put on the headset, like somebody who's never done it before, immediately will take it off cause they'll get nauseated. And then there's people, like kids who are like jet fighters. They've seen everything. You could throw like a 30 frames per second experience at them and that doesn't even phase them. They can be, all of a sudden their worlds are changing and they're like bring it because they're ready for that. So I think it's sort of about raising the bar for what the audience is comfortable with, familiar with, educating the community. There's a lot of tools right now, you know with Unreal and Unity that allow people who have very little... They don't need to know C# or C++, they can get started in a lot of like visual. What you see is what you get. Being able to drag things into a virtual room. And the windows headsets that are out. They refer to them as mixed reality, but just even having the ability to flip up the screen and transition from the virtual world to the real world in milliseconds, it allows you to be able to create things more at the speed of thought instead of coming up with an idea, coding it, and making sure it works, and then eventually putting on the headset. The sooner that we can actually be ideating inside this virtual environment is when things will get really interesting. >> So the next question is to take to the next level is what's the playbook? How does someone get involved? How does someone ingratiate into a community? If I'm an artist, I want to get, and I'm proficient with technology, or maybe not, how do they get involved? Is it community driven? Is it social? You guys mentioned seeing social's a big trend here. How do people get involved? What's the track? >> Well yeah you don't just need to go to a grad school or... There's a lot of programs out there that are popping up. Almost every single major state school has like an interactive art program now. And that wasn't the case like two or three years ago. So we're seeing that that's a big shift in the culture. But again, VR is still... It's expensive and it's you know, like VR, I refer to it's in the stage of it's almost like in the neo geo phase, maybe a little before that. But it's the really expensive thing that your friend's neighbor has. Or his older brother or something. You get to play it a little bit, you're like that's great but there's no way in hell I'm going to... You know, I can't afford that or like that just doesn't really work with my lifestyle right now so it needs to incorporate itself into our everyday, our habits. And it needs to be something that... If we're all doing it then it makes sense for us to do it together not just somebody in their basement doing it by themselves. >> Yeah feel free to comment, this is a good topic. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. So what we're doing is sort of about democratization and accessibility. So for people to get into the then they're going to need a rig, they're going to need a headset and previously it's actually been quite expensive to actually take that first plunge into it. So now by democratizing and bringing price points down, it makes it more accessible. That helps content creators because there's now more of an audience that can now consume that content. And the people that can then play with the medium and consume it now have a better reason to do it. So we're working on that. We're also working on the education pieces like Key. It's actually going out there to schools and actually letting them experience VR and play with VR. Because it is a whole new different medium. We've seen film directors and filmmakers go into the VR space and things that worked in 2D film like fast pans and whatever else so the points have already been made don't really translate into VR without somebody losing their lunch. So it is going to be somebody who's coming up who hasn't got the baggage of previous skill sets inside of 2D doing it inside of VR. So we're going to see that. And in terms of the technology, everybody's wanting things to progress. That shows the level of excitement out there. And everybody wants to get into it. Everybody wants to see it go further. And I'm reminded of the mobile phone. Mobile phone, 30 years ago? Two suitcases for batteries, a large brick on the ear and a car antennae. Okay, so where we are now, if you had a time machine and you went back in time to talk to the inventor of the mobile phone, well, I'd be a lot richer because I know sports results and all, but that aside, but you go back and talk to them and you said do you know in 30 years time, everybody is going to be carrying that device? Everybody's going to be dependent on that device? They're going to get social anxiety and separation anxiety if they lose it. And they will probably laugh in your face. >> Alright so since you brought up the phone analogy, since I love that example, are we in the Blackberry moment of VR and no one yet has built the iPhone? Because the iPhone was the seminal moment for smartphones. And you see what happened there. Is VR needing that kind of break? Or is it there? >> I think we're on the cusp. Where we are at the moment with technology, we've had the headsets, which I say have been more in the consumer space, they've been designed to hit a certain price point. We had CES the other week where we've had advancements now in the resolutions of headset that are now coming out. One of the issues was well I can't see texts, I can't read texts. So from a working environment, if you're actually using tools that you would normally use on a 2D screen, you can now translate that and read that text. However, in terms of the tools that people use, why are we trying to put 2D screens into a VR headset? We've got a whole new way of interacting with data. We've got a whole new way of doing things that are going to be more intuitive than the mouse and keyboard interaction that we're used to. Why just translate that. Let's push that envelope and those are the developments that we're pushing our partners and our ISVs to really embrace. >> So it's an evoution. >> It's absolutely an evolution. >> You guys have any thoughts on that comment. That we have that inflection point, are we hitting that, will we see it soon, is it here? >> Well I think it's a very interesting symbiotic relationship between multiple factors. So you know, we hear the cost factor, we hear the technology factor, then we have the content factor. You know I saw an interesting evolution at CES we had created this virtual booth experience so that you could still come to the CES Intel booth without actually having to be there. And I met a guy in there and I was like hey where are you? He goes I've been in here like all week. (laughter) And I was like oh yeah, where do you live? He goes oh I'm in my basement in Nebraska. But he had just, this was Friday when I met him. He'd been in there all week, but in 2D mode. And he had gone out the night before and bought a headset just so he could come back and go in VR mode. And I think, yes, all these factors have to kind of line up, but I do think that content, those experiences that are going to keep people coming back for more. Like these guys literally kept coming back to our booth. Right, to see... >> Content gain. >> To see who was there. And to them at that point, it wasn't really a barrier of cost. It was like there is something that I want to consume therefore I am going to go get what I need to consume it. And I use the analogy of HDTV, right. When we kind of moved over that hump where there was enough content people didn't really care how much that television cost. >> Sports was great. Sports really highlighted HD. >> Yeah. >> But this is a good point. This is a good question to ask. Brooks, I'd love to get your thoughts. Content drives experiences, amazing experiences, but we're building the scaffolding of everything at the same time. So where are we, what's your opinion? >> So here on the Starbreeze side, we're fortunate because we have our own headset. We have the StarVR headset we've been building with Acer. 5K all of that stuff and we're upgrading it over the next year. Our focus has been, we skipped the consumer market very much. We went straight to location based and enterprise. And the reason we did that is because there's a promise of VR at a basic, I don't want to say technology stand point, but from an experience perspective, when it comes to that resolution, when it comes to that field of view, when it comes to these things people expect. Average consumers who go to a movie and they see these giant screens. They want that translated. They don't have the understanding like we do of well, LED panels are actually a pain in the ass to build and it takes a little bit and they flip at their own speeds. Time to photon is not a thing my dad will ever see in his life. But there's a reality that people have a need for that. And it is extremely expensive. It's again the reason we went straight to LBE. But for us it's about marrying the two and consistently trying to match what's happening. So when we're talking about, as I mentioned earlier the technology and how we're standing on the shoulders of giants very very quickly, someone who's doing technology is going to see what we're doing content wise and go well I can do that better technology wise. And then we're just going to keep leap frogging. And it's very similar to the phone in the same way that we're not at the final stage of the phone. Like we're at our stage of the phone and no doubt in 30 years people will laugh at us for carrying anything. The same way we laugh about the briefcases and the giant batteries in the cars we had to pull with us. So it's one of those things that's continually transitional. And VR's in an odd, amazing place. >> Well you know, it was a lot of waves that we've all seen. You mentioned the mobile phone, that's a good one to point to. It feels like the PC revolution to me because the same culture of entrepreneurs and pioneers come from a bunch of different backgrounds. So I'd like to get Brooks perspective and Winslow's perspective on this because I think there's an entrepreneurial culture out there right now that's just emerging very fast. It's not like your classic entrepreneur software developer. So in this movement, in this wave, the entrepreneur is the filmmaker, it could be the kid in the basement, could be the gamer. Those entrepreneurs are trying to find a path. >> Yeah, it's a weird mix. VR is at this odd point where not only is it the people who are wanting to be cutting edge in terms of content or technology, but also that first mover strategy from the business side of things. And so everyone wants to be those guys who are charging ahead because in reality, if you look at the financials around all of this, VR is one of those things that you don't want to finance. It's not nearly as safe as say Marvel Avengers or the next Call of Duty. >> You've got to be, you've got to hustle. >> Yeah you've got to hustle. You've got to make... >> What's your advice? >> Start doing it. That's really it. It's the same advice I used to give to game makers when people would be like well I want to learn how to make games. It's like go to YouTube, download a thing and go do it. There's literally no reason why you can't. >> Are there meetups or like the Homebrew Computer Club that spawned the Mac. >> There are, there are infinite groups of VR people who are more than happy to give you all the terrible and wonderful opinions that come with that. There's no shortage of people. There's no shortage and it's an amazingly helpful group. Because everyone wants someone else to figure out something so they can steal that and then figure out something else. >> Winslow, your advice to entrepreneurs out there that are young and/or 14 to 50, what should they do? Jump right in obviously is a good one. >> Well yeah, experiment, break things, that's really the only way to learn. I would say watch as much VR as you can because sometimes bad VR is the best VR. Because you can learn don't do that. And if you learn, if you put all that together, you can really... It's like this lexicon that you can really follow. Also, I think we... As people in tech, we kind of get obsessed with things like resolution, frame rate, and these are very important, but it's also good to remember, or at least for me, I watch some of the best experiences from storytelling when I was a kid, eight years old on a 12 inch screen that was 640 by 480. You know, like scan lines on the VHS. But for me the story still resonated and it's important to think of story first, but obviously it's a dance between the story and the technology. They kind of have to both organically work together. And if they don't, one thing in the story that doesn't work because the tech isn't supporting it, can throw you out of the experience. >> Other concern entrepreneurs might have is financing. How do I get someone to help me build it? And then doing relationships. Finding relationships that could... One plus one equals more than two, right. So how do you? >> You have to get really creative when it comes to funding right now. Unless you're doing location based, which also requires a certain amount of investment to get it up to a bar where you want to be showing it to people with all the haptic effects when it's heat, smell, vibration, stuff like that. You know, it's not cheap to develop. But as far as like working with film foundations, we're fortunate enough to be sponsored by Fledgling Fund and Chicken and Egg. But we also were able to get partnerships with people like Intel and NVidia. And also work with people who come from a traditional film background. There's not one way to successfully fund a project. There's a million. And that's why it's interesting that the technology's innovating, but also the market place is as well. >> One of the things I want to ask is as any new industry gets building, is cultures form early. DNA forms in the entrepreneurs, in the pioneers. And one of the big hottest topics in the creative world is inclusion and diversity. So what's the makeup of the culture of this new generation? Because democratization means everyone can participate, everyone's involved. What's the state of the community vis a vis diversity, inclusion, and the role of the actors in the community. >> Well I think it's important to understand that VR has a profound ability to place you in somebody else's shoes. The trick though is to make sure that those feel like they're your shoes. But I think that we're learning a lot more about story telling techniques and we're able to empower people that their voices you know were previously not heard. The tricky thing is being able to yeah, educate all different groups of people how to use the technology, but once they're enabled and empowered to do it, it's amazing what you can experience inside the headset. >> So VR can be an enabler for education, outreach, a variety of things? >> Yes, I mean the term empathy, empathy machine gets thrown around a lot. You could do a drinking game around it. For panels when people are talking about it. But it's important to know there is a truth to that. And it's, yeah the perspective shift from looking at a screen, a 16 by 9 screen where you can look away, then dissolving the screen and becoming that person. Becoming the director, the actor, the camera person, the editor. When you're in the first person perspective, there's so much more... It feels more personal and that's a really interesting angle that we're going to continue to explore. >> So you could walk in someone's shoes, literally? >> Yes, you literally can. You just have to make sure that you got a... The tracking system's proper or else you'll look like there's... It can be come a horror movie pretty quickly if your leg is behind your head. >> Lisa, your thoughts on this, I know it's important to you. >> Yeah, I mean I think it's fascinating because I've been in tech for a really long time. And seen many, many trends. I mean the first job I had at Intel I was a PC tech and as you can imagine as a female, I think there was one other tech female in the department at the time and I would get funny looks when I would show up with my bag. They were like hi can I help you? I'm like I'm not here to deliver coffee, I'm here to fix your computer, you know. So I've seen a lot of trends and it's super exciting to me to see so much diversity cross culture, cross country, I mean we're having... We had guys come in from all over the world. From even war torn, they've escaped their country just several years ago and they're coming and they're bringing all that creativity to the market. We're seeing very, very strong female contingent from the filmmaker perspective so it's this wonderful, wonderful just primordial soup of people that I think are growing their own voice and their own power. They're breaking molds as far as how you actually get content produced. Distribution is kind of crazy right now. I mean, how do you get it distributed? There's like so many different ways. But all of those things are so important to the evolutionary and biological process of this. Yes, we need to let it go and sometimes we're frustrated. We're like where's the standards? Where's the one ring to rule them all? Where there's not going to be one. And it's good for us that there's not right now. It's frustrating from a business perspective sometimes. You're like, I can't peanut butter myself around all of these places, but I think it's just a very unique time where so many people are... The technology is accessible, that means that so many creators can now bring their fresh voice to this space and it's just going to be fascinating to continue to watch. >> That's awesome. Well two more questions and I'll give you some time to think about the last one which is your perspective on Sundance, what's happening this year, your personal view of what you think's happening, what might happen during this year. But the question I have for you now is to go down the line. We'll start with Brooks here, and talk about the coolest thing that you're involved in right now. >> It actually has to be Hero. We're debuting it here at Sundance. We've been working on it and not talking about it for about nine months. And it's been very difficult. Again it's sacrosanct to the experience that you don't know literally what you're getting in to. And the emotional response has been essentially our goal, trying to find out how far can we take that. You actually being in a space, moving around, having that interactivity, doing what you would do. But it being your story and how deeply we can absolutely effect a human being. And again, watching people come out, it's one of those things, I've been doing game development, I've worked on films, I've done all kinds of stuff. And you usually get a chance when someone experiences something you've made, you walk up to them and you go so what'd you think? And that's not at all what we can do with ours. >> How has it impacted you, that reaction? >> Well, I personally suffer significant PTSD and I've had some traumas in my life. And so it's been incredibly powerful to be able to share these things with people. Share this emotion in a deeply profound, yet amazingly personal way. Which I'm amazingly fortunate to be able to be a part of it. >> Alright thanks for sharing. Coolest thing that's going on with you right now here at Sundance. >> Just the fact that I'm here at all. I mean, it's incredible right? Personally was able to be an advisor on the SPHERES project that is premiering here with Eliza McNitt. She's someone who was an Intel Science Fair winner back in high school and kind of came back to us. So just to see the evolution of an artist really from the beginning to the point where they've been able to come here to Sundance. I'm also very passionate about the work that we're doing with Sansar. I kind of consider myself one of the chief storytellers at Intel around Virtual reality and this new move into social where people are like well what's this game. I'm like, it's not a game. It's you are the game, you are the interactivity. You become the person that makes the space interesting. We're just really setting the scene for you. And there's so many... You know there's a lot of different people kind of chasing this be togetherness. But what we've been able to produce there. And just to be able to explore some of my own personal ideas has just been such a gift. Then to be working with guys like these on the panels and see what they're doing and just be in touch is really just an exciting time. >> John: Awesome. >> Probably what, other than the people on the projects, or the projects that are being shown here, we're working on our new project, which we would have loved to premiere here, but we did... Basically when you get in, you have two months to create a piece, so you have a demo and you have to finish it, so we're taking a little bit more time. This one's going to be about a year development cycle. It's called Breathe where we take you from where Giant left off, where, in Giant, the ceiling collapses on a family. They're in front of you. In this experience, we use a breathing apparatus to basically bring yourself back to life. And then you realize you're trapped under rubble and you remove the... We actually want to have physical objects on top of you that are going to be tracked. So you're moving rubble from you and you realize that you're a six year old girl. You're the survivor from Giant. And you get to witness what it's like to be a future refugee sort of in different key moments of her life that use breath. Whether it's a flirtatious moment, blowing a dandelion, seeing your own breath in snow as a drone shows you a message that your parents pre-recorded on your 18th birthday. This is all in the future, obviously, but every time you walk around an object, you actually grow 10 to 15 years older in the experience. As you get older, the world becomes smaller. And then we witness what's like for her last breath. From being six years old to being 90 years old. But it's a profound personal experience. >> John: That sounds cool, cool. Gary, coolest thing that you're involved in right now at Sundance. >> Wow. I could say it's all cool that would be a bit trite. They say if you enjoy what you do, is it really a job? And I'm lucky enough to be in that position. Because working with all these guys here and like people around the place, they're doing such great things that every day I wake up and I'm astounded of where the industry's going. In terms of what we're doing here at Sundance, then we're really starting to push those envelopes as well. I've been lucky enough to be involved with Dunkirk and Spider-Man: Homecoming. Like last year, so some great pieces there. And moving out into this year, we've got some other developments which I can't mention at this point, but we're showing things like AR and VR mashup. So we haven't talked much about augmented reality here. It's an evolutionary, it's not a replacement. Both can be used and we've started to really start to blend those two technologies now. So you can still see the outside world. Just touching on the commercial side, and health care's very big for me. That's where I think the really cool stuff is happening. Entertainment is great and that's really pushing the envelope and allowing us to then take it for the good of human kind. >> It happens everywhere, it's not just entertainment. >> Yeah absolutely. You start looking at MRI scans inside of VR or AR. Talking a patient through it so they can actually see exactly what you're talking about. You're now no longer pointing at flat things on a screen. You're now actually taking them through it. If you're using AR, you can actually judge the responses of the patient as for how they're reacting to the news. And effectively, inside of the VR, and what's really cool for me is seeing people's reaction to that content and to the entertainment content. >> That's awesome. Okay final question. This is a little bit of self serving because I'd like you to help me do my job at SiliconANGLE. If you were a reporter and you were going to report the most important stories happening this year at Sundance or really kind of what's really happening versus what's kind of being billed to be happening here. What's the story? What is the story this year at Sundance 2018 in your personal perspective? We'll go down the line and share your observations. >> Well, mine here, I'm a Sundance newbie. This is my first year of being here. I'm absolutely astounded by the community spirit that's around. I go to a lot of technical trade shows and technical presentations. People coming here with a willingness to learn. Wanting to learn from other people. It's been touched on already. It's the pool of knowledge that's available inside of Sundance that everybody that comes here can actually tap into to create better content, to learn not what to do as well as learn what to do. And I just think that's brilliant because in that community spirit, that's really going to help enable this industry quickly. >> John: Winslow, you've got some experience, what's your thoughts? >> Obviously, this Intel house, just a little plug for you Lisa. (laughter) Tech Lounge. We got that? Okay good. I mean, yeah, the people that's here. Every year we come here and see where the high water mark is. All these people are... Some of these teams first started with two people and then they grew to six and then by the end of it, there's 100 people working around the clock, pulling all-nighters to be able to give the latest and greatest of what's available with these current tools. So it's amazing because the work itself doesn't really mean anything until people get to experience it. So that's nice that they make a big splash. The people here are very attentive to it. It's a very nice audience and this will continue the momentum for future festivals throughout the year, but also will excite people that have never done VR before. People who have never been to Sundance before. We're seeing that there's a lot of new people. And that will continue to influence many years to come. >> John: So you think VR is the top story here being told? >> As far as like just to generalize, I would say last year kind of the big VR year. This is kind of the big AR year. Next year's going to be the AI year. Then after that we're going to start putting them all together. >> John: Great, great feedback. >> I think it's just exciting for Intel just to be back here. I think Intel hasn't been here in quite some time. Dell coming in here probably one of the breakout years for us to come back and really talk to creators what we're doing from the Intel Studios all the way through to the stuff you can take home and do at home. And I think coming in, we're coming back here with a purpose really, not just to be here to be seen. We're really here with real things and want to have real conversations on how tech can enable what people are doing. Not just from a brand perspective, but from a real hands on point of view. >> John: Yeah, some great demos too, phenomenal tech. >> Really just, yeah everything from the AI stuff we have to the social to the great new pieces that have been submitted here like we mentioned with SPHERES. So I think, yeah, it doesn't feel gratuitous to me you know that Dell or Intel is here this year. We've really come with a purpose. >> You guys are moving the needle, it's really awesome. We need more horsepower. >> Brooks, your thoughts on Sundance this year. Observation, the vibe, what would you tell your friend back home when you get back? >> If, for me, I think it's almost the non-story. It's like the opposite of a story. It's just the deep integration of VR into the normal Sundance flow I think has been interesting. Some people have been here for a few years. And back in the day when it was one or two, it was a lot of oh, you do VR? What's that then? Whereas now, you see a lot more people who are crossing over. Going to see documentaries, then they come to see a VR piece and it's just a part of the normal flow. And the team at New Frontier has done exceptional work to kind of make sure that they have this ridiculous high level of broad content for all kinds of people. All kinds of experiences, all high end things. But it's not that VR's here. Oh good, we have a VR section. It's a lot more of an integrated set up. And it's been really encouraging to see. >> Well you guys have been great. It's been very inspirational. Great information. You guys are reimagining the future and building it at the same time so entrepreneurially and also with content and technology. So thanks so much for sharing on this panel The New Creative. This is SiliconANGLE's coverage of Sundance 2018 here at the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat music)