>>From around the globe. It's the cube covering data citizens. 21 brought to you by Colibra >>Welcome to the cubes coverage of Collibra data citizens 21. I'm Lisa Martin. I have three guests with me here today. Colibra customer Freddie Mac, please welcome JAG chief data officer and vice president of single family data and decisions. Jog. Welcome to the cube. >>Thank you, Lisa. Look forward to be, >>Uh, excellent on Kiko LSU as well. Vice president data transformation and analytics solution on Kay. Good to have you on the program. >>Thank you, Lisa. Great to be here and >>A teeth Malik senior director from the single family division at Freddie Mac is here as well. A team welcome. So we have big congratulations in order. Uh, pretty Mac was just announced at data citizens as the winners of the Colibra excellence award for data program of the year. Congratulations on that. We're going to unpack that. Talk about what that means, but I'd love to get familiar with the 3d Jack. Start with you. Talk to me a little bit about your background, your current role as chief data officer. >>Appreciate it, Lisa, thank you for the opportunity to share our story. Uh, my name is Arvind calls me Jack. And as you said, I'm just single-family chief data officer at Freddie Mac, but those that don't know, Freddie Mac is a Garland sponsored entity that supports the U S housing finance system and single family deals with the residential side of the marketplace, as CDO are responsible for our managed content data lineage, data governance, business architecture, which Cleaver plays a integral role, uh, in, in depth, that function as well as, uh, support our shared assets across the enterprise and our data monetization efforts, data, product execution, decision modeling, as well as our business intelligence capabilities, including AI and ML for various use cases as a background, starting my career in New York and then moved to Boston and last 20 years of living in the Northern Virginia DC area and fortunate to have been responsible for business operations, as well as led and, um, executed large transformation efforts. That background has reinforced the power of data and how, how it's so critical to meeting our business objectives. Look forward to our dialogue today, Lisa, once again. >>Excellent. You have a great background and clearly not a dull moment in your job with Freddy, Matt. And tell me a little bit about your background, your role, what you're doing at Freddie >>Mac. Definitely. Um, hi everyone. I'm,, I'm vice president of data transformation and analytics solutions. And I worked for JAG. I'm responsible for many of the things he said, including leading our transformation to the cloud and migrating all our existing data assets front of that transformation journey. I'm also responsible for our business information and business data architecture, decision modeling, business intelligence, and some of the analytics and artificial intelligence. I started my career back in the day as a computer engineer, but I've always been in the financial industry up in New York. And now in the Northern Virginia area, I called myself that bridge between business and technology. And I would say, I think over the last six years with data found that perfect spot where business and technology actually come together to solve real problems and, and really lead, um, you know, businesses to the next stage of, so thank you Lisa for the opportunity today. Excellent. >>And we're going to unpack you call yourself the bridge between business and it that's always such an important bridge. We're going to talk about that in just a minute, but I want to get your background, tell our audience about you. >>Uh, I'm Alec Malek, I'm senior director of business, data architecture, data transformation, and Freddie Mac. Uh, I'm responsible for the overall business data architecture and transformation of the existing data onto the cloud data lake. Uh, my team is responsible for the Kleberg platform and the business analysts that are using and maintaining the data in Libra and also driving the data architecture in close collaboration with our engineering teams. My background is I'm a engineer at heart. I still do a lot of development. This is my first time as of crossing over onto the bridge onto business side of maintaining data and working with data teams. >>Jan, let's talk about digital transformation. Freddie Mac is a 50 year old and growing company. I always love talking with established businesses about digital transformation. It's pretty challenging. Talk to me about your initial plan and what some of the main challenges were that you were looking to solve. >>Uh, great question, Lisa, and, uh, it's definitely pertinent as you say, in our digital world or figuring out how we need to accomplish it. If I look at our data, modernization is it is a major program and, uh, effort, uh, in, in our, in our division, what started as a reducing cost or looking at an infrastructure play, moving from physical data assets to the cloud, as well as enhancing our resiliency as quickly morphed into meeting business demand and objectives, whether it be for sourcing, servicing or securitization of our loan products. So where are we as we think about creating this digital data marketplace, we are, we are basically forming, empowering a new data ecosystem, which Columbia is definitely playing a major role. It's more than just a cloud native data lake, but it's bringing in some of our current assets and capabilities into this new data landscape. >>So as we think about creating an information hub, part of the challenges, as you say, 50 years of having millions of loans and millions of data across multiple assets, it's frigging out that you still have to care and feed legacy while you're building the new highway and figuring out how you best have to transform and translate and move data and assets to this new platform. What we've been striving for is looking at what is the business demand or what is the business use case, and what's the value to help prioritize that transformation. Exciting part is, as you think about new uses of acquiring and distribution of data, as well as news new use cases for prescriptive and predictive analytics, the power of what we're building in our daily, this new data ecosystem, we're feeling comfortable, we'll meet the business demand, but as any CTO will tell you demand is always, uh, outpaces our capacity. And that's why we want to be very diligent in terms of our execution plan. So we're very excited as to what we've accomplished so far this year and looking forward as we offered a remainder year. And as you go into 2022. Excellent, >>Thanks JAG. Uh, two books go to you. As I mentioned in the intro of that Freddie Mac has won the Culebra excellence award for data program of the year. Again, congratulations on that, but I'd love to understand the Kleber center of excellence that you're building at Freddie Mac. First of all, define what a center of excellence is to Freddie Mac and then what you're specifically building. Yeah, sure. >>So the Cleaver center of excellence provides us the overall framework from a people and process standpoint to focus in on our use of Colibra and for adopting best practices. Uh, we can have teams that are focused just on developing best practices and implementing workflows and lineage within Collibra and implementing and adopting a number of different aspects of Libra. It provides the central hub of people being domain experts on the tool that can then be leveraged by different groups within the organization to maintain, uh, the tool. >>Put another follow on question a T for you. How does Freddie Mac define, uh, dated citizens as anybody in finance or sales or marketing or operations? What does that definition of data citizen? >>It's really everyone it's within the organization. They all consume data in different ways and we provide a way of governing data and for them to get a better understanding of data from Collibra itself. So it's really everyone within the organization that way. >>Excellent. Okay. Let's go over to you a big topic at data citizens. 21 is collaboration. That's probably a word that we used a ton in the last 15 plus months or so it was every business really pivoted quickly to figure out how do we best collaborate. But something that you talked about in your intro is being the bridge between business and it, I want to understand from your perspective, how can data teams help to drive improved collaboration between business and it, >>The collaboration between business and technology have been a key focus area for us over the last few years, we actually started an agile transformation journey two years ago that we called modern delivery. And that was about moving away from project teams to persistent product teams that brought business and technology together. And we've really been able to pioneer that in the data space within Freddie Mac, where we have now teams with product owners coming from the data team and then full stack ID developers with them creating these combined teams to meet the business needs. We found that bringing these teams together really remove the barriers that were there in the interaction and the employee satisfaction has been high. And like you said, over the last 16 months with the pandemic, we've actually seen the productivity stay same or even go up because the teams were all working together, they work as a unit and they all have the sense of ownership versus working on a project that has a finite end date to fail. So we've, um, you know, we've been really lucky with having started this two years ago. Well, and >>That's great. And congratulations about either maintaining productivity or having it go up during the last 16 months, which had been incredibly challenging. Jack. I want to ask you what does winning this award from Collibra what does this mean to you and your team and does this signify that you're really establishing a data first culture? >>Great question, Lisa again. Um, I think winning the award, uh, just from a team standpoint, it's a great honor. Uh, Kleber has been a fantastic partner. And when I think about the journey of going from spread sheets, right, that all of us had in the past to now having all our business class returns lineage, and really being at the forefront of our data monetization. So as we think about moving to the cloud Beliebers step in step with us in terms of our integral part of that holistic delivery model, when I ultimately, as a CDO, it's really the team's honor and effort, cause this has been a multi-year journey to get here. And it's great that Libra as a, as a partner has helped us achieve some of these goals, but also recognized, um, where we are in terms of, uh, as looking at data as a product and some of our, um, leading forefront and using that holistic delivery, uh, to, uh, to meet our business objectives. So overall poorly jazzed when, uh, we've been found that we wanted the data program here at Collibra and very honored, um, uh, to, to win this award. That's >>Where we got to bring back I'm jazzed. I liked that jug sticking with you, let's unpack a little bit, some of those positive results, those business outcomes that you've seen so far from the data program. What are those? >>Yeah. So again, if you were thinking about a traditional CDO model, what were the terms that would have been used few years ago? It was around governance and may have been viewed as an oversight. Um, maybe less talking, um, monetization of what it was, the business values that you needed to accomplish collectively. It's really those three building blocks managing content. You got to trust the source, but ultimately it's empowering the business. So the best success that I could say at Freddy, as you're moving to this digital world, it's really empowering the business to figure out the new capabilities and demand and objectives that we're meeting. We're not going to be able to transform the mortgage industry. We're not going to be able or any, any industry, if we're still stuck in old world thinking, and ultimately data is going to be the blood that has to enable those capabilities. >>So if you tell me the business best success, we're no longer talking a okay, I got my data governance, what do we have to do? It's all embedded together. And as I alluded to that partnership between business and it informing that data is a product where you now you're delivering capabilities holistically from program teams all across data. It's no longer an afterthought. As I said, a few minutes ago, you're able to then meet the demand what's current. And how do we want to think about going forward? So it's no longer buzzwords of digital data marketplace. What is the value of that? And that's what the success, I think if our group collectively working across the organization, it's just not one team it's across the organization. Um, and we have our partners, our operations, everyone from business owners, all swimming in the same direction with, and I would say critical management support. So top of the house, our, our head of business, my, my boss was the COO full supportive in terms of how we're trying to execute and I've makes us, um, it's critical because when there is a potential, trade-offs, we're all looking at it collectively as an organization, >>Right. And that's the best viewpoint to have is that sort of centralized unified vision. And as you say, JAG, the support from, from up top, uh, I'd see if I want to ask you, you establish the Culebra center of excellence. What are you focused on now? >>So we really focused in allowing our users to consume data and understand data and really democratizing data so that they can really get a better understanding of that. So that's a lot of our focus and engaging with Collibra and getting them to start to define things in Colibra law form. That's a lot of focus right now. >>Excellent. Want to stay with you one more question and take that I'm gonna ask to all of you, what are you most excited about a lot of success that you've talked about transforming a legacy institution? What are you most excited about and what are the next steps for the data program? Uh, teak what's are your thoughts? >>Yeah, so really modernizing onto, uh, onto a cloud data lake and allowing all of the users and, uh, Freddie Mac to consume data with the level of governance that we need around. It is a exciting proposition for me. >>What would you say is most exciting to you? >>I'm really looking forward to the opportunities that artificial intelligence has to offer, not just in the augmented analytics space, but in the overall data management life cycle. There's still a lot of things that are manual in the data management space. And, uh, I personally believe, uh, artificial intelligence has a huge role to play there. And Jackson >>Question to you, it seems like you have a really strong collaborative team. You have a very collaborative relationship with management and with Collibra, what are you excited about? What's coming down the pipe. >>So Lisa, if I look at it, you know, we sit back here June, 2021, where were we a year ago? And you think about a lot of the capabilities and some of the advancements that we may just in a year sitting virtually using that word jazzed or induced or feeling really great about. We made a lot of accomplishments. I'm excited what we're going to be doing for the next year. So there's other use cases, and I could talk about AIML and OCHA talks about, you know, our new ecosystem. Seeing those use cases come to fruition so that we're, we are contributing to value from a business standpoint. The organization is what really keeps me up. Uh, keeps me up at night. It gets me up in the morning and I'm really feeling dues for the entire division. Excellent. >>Well, thank you. I want to thank all three of you for joining me today. Talking about the successes that Freddie Mac has had transforming in partnership with Colibra again, congratulations on the Culebra excellence award for the data program. It's been a pleasure talking to all three of you. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of Collibra data citizens 21.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well, there's no question these days that in the world of business, it's all about data. Data is the king. How you harvest data, how you organize your data, how you distribute your data, how you secure your data, all very important questions. And certainly a leader in the data replication business is HVR. We're joined now by their CEO, Anthony Brooks-Williams, and by Diwakar Goel, who is the Global Chief Data Officer at GE. We're going to talk about, you guessed it, data. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. Good to have you here on theCUBE Conversation. >> Thank you. Thanks, John. >> Yeah, well, listen, >> Thanks, John. >> first off, let's just characterize the relationship between the two companies, between GE and HVR. Maybe Diwakar, let's take us back to how you got to HVR, if you will and maybe a little bit about the evolution of that relationship, where it's gone from day one. >> No, absolutely. It's now actually a long time back. It's almost five and a half years back, that we started working with Anthony. And honestly it was our early days of big data. We all had big, different kind of data warehousing platforms, but we were transitioning into the big data ecosystem and we needed a partner that could help us to get more of the real-time data. And that's when we started working with Anthony. And I would say, John, over the years, you know we have learned a lot and our partnership has grown a lot. And it's grown based on the needs. When we started, honestly just being able to replicate a lot sources and to give you context like GBG, we have the fifth largest Oracle ERP. We have the seventh largest SAP ERP. They just, just by the nature of just getting those systems in was a challenge. And we had to work through different, different solutions because some of the normal ones wouldn't work. As we got matured, and we started using data over the last two, three years, specifically, we had different challenges. The challenges was like, you know is the data completely accurate? Are we losing and dropping some data? When you're bringing three billion, five billion rows of data, every five to six hours, even if you've dropped 1% you've lost like a huge set of insights, right? So that's when you started working with Anthony more around like the nuances as to, you know what could be causing us to lose some data, or duplicate some datasets, right? And I think our partnership's been very good, because some of our use cases have been unique and we've continuously pushed Anthony and the team to deliver that. With the light of, you know these use cases are not unique, in some cases we were just ahead, just by the nature of what we were handling. >> Okay. Anthony, about then the HVR approach, Diwakar, just took us through somewhat higher level of how this relationship has evolved. It's started with big data, now, it's gone (mumbles) in terms of even fine tuning the accuracy, that's so important. Latency is obviously a huge topic too from your side of the fence. But how do you address it then? Let's take GE for example, in terms of understanding their business, learning their business, their capabilities, maybe where their holes are, you know where their weaknesses were, and showing that up. How did you approach that from the HVR side? >> Yeah. Do you mean wanting back a few years? I mean, obviously it starts, you get in there, you find an initial use case and that was moving data into a certain data warehouse platform, whether it be around analytics or reporting such as Diwakar mentioned. And that's, I mean, most commonly what we see from a lot of customers. It's, the typical use case is real-time analytics, and moving the data to an area for consolidated reporting. It's either most (indistinct) in these times, it's in the cloud. But GE you know, where that's evolved and GE are a top customer for us. We work across many of their business units of their different BUS. GE had another arm Predix, which is the industrial IOT platform that actually OEM must as well for a solution they sell to other companies in the space. But where we've worked with GE is, you know the ability one, just to support the scale, the complexity, the volume of data, many different sources systems, many different BUS, whether it be, you know, their aviation division or our divisions, or those types, to sending that data across. And the difference being as well where we've really pushed us and Diwakar and team pushed us is around the accuracy to the exact point that Diwakar mentions. This study is typically financial data. This is data that they run their business off. This is data that the executing CEOs get dashboards on a daily basis. It can't be wrong. You may not only do businesses these days, you want to make decisions on the freshest data that they can, and specifically over the last year, because that's a matter about survival. Not only is it about winning, it's about survival and doing business in the most cost-effective way. But then that type of data, that we're moving, the financial data, the financial data lags we built for GE that is capturing this out of SAP systems, where we have some other features benefits, you know that's where that really pushed us around the accuracy. And that's whereby you mean, you can't really, these, you can't ever, but especially these days, have a typical just customer tab vendor approach. It has to be a partnership. And that was one other thing Diwakar and I spoke a while ago. It was about, how do we really push and develop a partnership between the two companies, between the two organizations? And that's key. And that's where we've been pushed. And there's much new things we're working on for them based on where they are going as a business, whether it be different sources, different targets. And so that's where it's worked out well for both companies. >> So Diwakar, about the margin of error then, in terms of accuracy, 'cause I'm hearing from Anthony that this is something you really pushed them on, right? You know, and 96, 97%, doesn't cut it, right? I mean, you can't be that close. It's got to be spot on. At what point in your data journey, if you will, did it come to roost that the accuracy, you know had to improve or, you know you needed a solution that would get you where you needed to operate your various businesses? >> I think John, it basically stems down to a broader question. You know, what are you using the data for? You know, a lot of us, when we're starting this journey we want to use the data for a lot of analytical use cases. And that basically means you want to look at a broad pattern and say, okay, you know what, do I have a significant amount of inventory sitting on one plant? Or, you know, is there a bigger problem with how I'm negotiating with a vendor, and I want to change that? And for those use cases, you know getting good enough data gives you an indicator as to how do you want to work with them, right? But when you want to take your data to a far more fidelity and more critical processes, whether, you know you're trying to capture from an airplane, the latest signal, and if you had five more signal, perhaps you solve the mystery of the Malaysian Med Sync plan, or when you're trying to solve and report on your financials, right? Then the fidelity and the accuracy of data has to be spot on. And what you realize is, you know you unlock a certain set of value with analytical use cases. But if you truly want to unlock what can be done with big data, you have to go at the operational level, you have to run your business using the data real-time. It's not about like, you know, in hindsight, how can I do things better? If I want to make real-time decisions on, you know, how, what I need to make right now, what's my healthcare indicator suggesting, how do I change the dosage for a customer or a patient, right? It has to be very operational. It has to be very accurate. And that margin of error then almost becomes zero, because you are dealing with things. If you go wrong you can cost lives, right? So that's where we are. And I think honestly being able to solve that problem has now opened up a massive door of what all we can do with data. >> Yeah. Yeah, man. I think I would just build on that as well. I mean, one, it's about us as a company. We are in the data business, obviously. Sources and targets. I mean that's the table stakes stuff. What do we support? It's our ability to bridge these modern environments and the legacy environments, that we do. And you see that across all organizations. A lot of their data source sits in these legacy top environments, but that will transition to other either target systems or the new world ones that we see, more modern bleeding edge environments. So we have to support those but they're not the same time. It's building on the performance, the accuracy of the total product, versus just being able to connect the data. And that's where we get driven down the path with companies like GE, with Diwakar. And they've pushed us. But it's really bridging those environments. >> You know, it also seems like with regard to data that you look at this almost like a verb tense, what happened, what is happening, what will happen, right? So in looking at it to that person, Diwakar, if you will, in terms of the kind of information that you can glean from this vast repository of data as opposed to, you know, what did happen, what's going on right now, and then what can we make happen down the road? Where does HVR factor into that for you in terms of not only, you know, making those, having those kinds of insights, but also making sure that the right people within your organization have access to the information that they need. And maybe just, they only need. >> No, you're right, John. It's funny, you're using a different analogy but I keep referring to as taillights versus headlights, right? Gone are the days you can refer back as to what's happening. You need to just be able to look forward, right? And I think real-time data too is no longer a question or believe, it's a necessity. And I think one of the things we often miss out is real-time data is actually a very collaborative piece of how it brings the various operators together. Because in the past, if you think, if you just go a little bit old school, people will go and do their job. And then they will come back and submit what they did, right? And then you will accumulate what everybody did and make sense out of it. Now, as people are doing things live, you are hearing about it. So for example, if I am issuing payments across different, different places I need to know how much balance I need to keep in the bank, it's the simplest example, right? Now I can keep the math, I can always stack my bank with a ton of money, then I'm losing money because now I'm blocking my money. And especially now, if you think about GE which has 6,000 bank account. If I keep stacking it, I will practically go bankrupt, right? So if I have an inference of what's happening every time a payment card issued by anybody, I am knowing it real-time. It allows me to adjust for optimal liquidity. As simple as it sounds, it saves you a hundred billion dollars if you do it right, in a year, right? So I think it is just fundamentally changes. We need to think about real-time data is no longer, it's just how you need to operate. It's no longer an option. >> Yeah. You may, we see, what we've seen as posture, we were fortunate. We had a great 2020. Just under a hundred percent year-over-year growth. Why? It's about the immediacy of data, so that they can act accordingly. You mean these days, it's table stakes. You mean, it's about winning and, or just surviving compared to, you know, years ago when day old data, week old data, that was okay. You mean, then largely these legacy type (mumbles) technologies, well it was fine. It's not anymore. You mean exactly what Diwakar was saying. It's table stakes. It's just what, that's what it is. >> And I think John, in fact, I see actually it's getting further pushed out, right? Because what happens is I get real-time data from HVR but then I'm actually doing some stuff to get real-time insights after that. And there is a lag from that time to when I'm actually generating insights on which I'm acting on. Now, there is more and more of a need that how do I even shorten that cycle time, right? I actually, from it, we are getting, not only data when it's getting refresh, I actually get signals when I need to add something. So I think in fact, the need of the future is going to be also far more event-driven, where every time something happens that I need to act on, how can technologies like HVR even help you with understanding those? >> Anthony: Yes. >> Anthony, what does scale do to all this? Diwakar touched on it briefly about accuracy and all of a sudden, if you know, if you have a, if you've got a, you know a small discrepancy on a small dataset, no big deal, right? But all of a sudden, if there are issues down the road and you're talking about, you know, millions and millions and millions of inputs, now we've got a problem. So just in terms of scale and with an operation the size of GE, what kind of impacts does that have? >> Yeah. Massive. You mean, it's part of the reason why we went, why we've been successful. We have the ability to scale very well from this highly distributed architecture that we have. And so that's what's been, you know, fortunate for us over the last year, as we know. What does the stat mean? 90% of the world's data was generated over the last two years or something like that. And that just feeds into more, human scale is key. Not only complexity at scale is a key thing, and that's where we've been fortunate to set ourselves apart on that space. I mean we, GE push us and challenge us on a daily basis. The same we do with another company, the biggest online e-commerce platform, massive scale, massive scale. Then that's, we get pushed the whole time and get pushed to improve all the time. But fortunately we have a very good solution that fits into that, but it's just, and I think it just doesn't get, worse is the wrong word. It's just, it's going to continue to grow. The problem is not going away. You know, the volumes are going to increase massively. >> So Diwakar, if I could, before we wrap up here, I'm just curious from your, if you put on your forward-thinking glasses right now, in terms of the data capabilities that HVR has provided you, are they driving you to different kinds of horizons in terms of your business strategy or are your business strategies driving the data solutions that you need? I mean, which way is it right now in terms of how you are going to expand your services down the road? >> It's an interesting question. I think, and Anthony keep correcting me on this one, but today, you know because if you think about big data solutions, right? They were largely designed for a different world historically. They were designed for our IOT parametric set of data sets in different kind of world. So there was a big catch up that a lot of these companies had to do to make it relevant even for the other relational data sets, transactional data sets and everything else, right? So a big part of what I feel like Anthony and other companies have been focusing on is really making this relevant for that world. And I feel like companies like HVR are now absolutely there. And as they are there they are now starting to think about solving or I would say focusing on people who are early in their stage, and how can they get them up and quick, you know, efficient early, because that's a lot of the challenges, right? So I would say, I don't know if Anthony's focuses me in, right? So it should not be me, but it's, I think like where they're going, for example like how do they connect with all the different cloud vendors? So when a company wants to come live and if they're using data from, you know the HR Workday solution or Concord Travel solution, they can just come pitch. We are plug and play. And say, okay, enable me data from all of these and it's there. Today what took us six months to get there, right? So I think rightly so, I think Anthony and the team are focusing on that. And I think we have been partnering on with Anthony more, I would say, perhaps pushing a little more on you know, getting not only accurate data but also now on the paradigm of compliant data. Because I think what you're going to also start seeing is as companies, especially in like different kind of industries, like financial, healthcare and others, they would need data certification also of various kinds. And that would require each of these tool to meet compliance standards that were very, they were not designed for again, right? So I think that's a different paradigm, that again Anthony and the team are really doing great in helping us get there. >> Yeah. I think there's, that was good Diwakar. There's quite a bit to unpack there, you know. With companies such as GE, we've been on a journey for many years. And so that's why we deployed across the enterprise. And let's start off with, I have this source system, I'll move my data into their target system. These targets systems you know, become more frequently either data lakes or environments that were on-premise to running in the cloud, to newer platforms that are built for the cloud, like we've seen the uptake in companies like Snowflake and those types. And you mean, we see this from you know big query from Google and those type of environments. So we see those. And that's things we've got to support along the way as well. But then at the same time, more and more data starts getting generated in your non-traditional trial platforms. I mean, cloud-based applications and those things which we then support and build into this whole framework. But at the same time to what Diwakar was saying, the eyes, you know, the legal requirements, the regulator requirements on the type of data that is now being used. Before you would never typically have years ago companies moving their most valuable or their financial data into these cloud-based type environments. Well, they are today. It happens. And so with that comes a whole bunch of regulation in security. And we've certainly seen particularly this last year the uptake in when these transactions have another level of scrutiny when you're bringing in new products into these environments. So they go through, you know, basically the security and the legal requirements are a lot longer and more depth than they used to be. And that's just the typical of the areas that they're deploying these technologies in as well, and where you're taking some technologies that weren't necessarily built for the modern world that they are now adopt in the modern world. So it's quite complex and a lot to unpack there, but it's, you've got to be on top of all of that. But that's where you then work with your top customers, like at GE, that future roadmap, that feeds where one, you obviously make a decision and you go, this is where we believe the market's going, and these are the things we need to go, we know we need to go support, no matter that no customer has asked us for it yet. But the majority of it is still where customers that are pushing, bleeding edge, that are pushing you as well, and that feeds the roadmap. And, you know, there's a number of new profile platforms GE even pushed us to go support and features that Diwakar and the team have pushed us around accuracy and security and those types of things. So it's an all encompassing approach to it. >> John, we could like-- >> Actually, I think we've set up an entirely new CUBE Conversation we're going to have down the road, I think. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Hey, gentlemen, thank you for the time. I certainly appreciate it. Really enjoyed it. And I wish you both a very happy and importantly, a healthy 2021. >> Great. >> Thank you both. Appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, John. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Anthony. Bye bye. >> Bye bye. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, and welcome to this CUBE Conversation, from our Boston area studio, I'm Stu Miniman, happy to welcome to the program, first of all we have a first time guest, always love when we have a founder on the program, Anurag Goel is the founder and CEO of Render, and we've brought along a longtime friend of the program, Dr. Steve Herrod, he is a managing director at General Catalyst, a investor in Render. Anurag and Steve, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Yeah, thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Anurag, Render, your company, the tagline is the easiest cloud for developers and startups. It's a rather bold statement, most people feel that the first generation of cloud has happened and there were certain clear winners there. The hearts and minds of developers absolutely has been a key thing for many many companies, and one of those drivers in the software world. Why don't you give us a little bit of your background, and as the founder of the company, what was it, the opportunity that you saw, that had you create Render? >> Yeah, so I was the fifth engineer at Stripe, and helped launch the company and grow it to five billion dollars in revenue. And throughout that period, I saw just how much money we were spending on just hiring DevOps engineers, AWS was a huge huge management headache, really, there's no other way to describe it. And even after I left Stripe, I was thinking hard about what I wanted to do next, and a lot of those ideas required some form of development and deployment, and putting things in production, and every single time I had to do the same thing over and over and over again, as a developer, so despite all the advancements in the cloud, it was always repetitive work, that wasn't just for my projects, I think a lot of my friends felt the same way. And so, I decided that we needed to automate some of these new things that have come about, as part of the regular application deployment process, and how it evolves, and that's how Render was born. >> All right, so Steve, remember in the early days, cloud was supposed to be easy and inexpensive, I've been saying on theCUBE it's like well, I guess it hasn't quite turned out that way. Love your viewpoint a little bit, because you've invested here, to really be competitive in the cloud, tens of billions of dollars a year, that need to go into this, right? >> Yeah, I had the fortunate chance to meet Anurag early on, General Catalyst was an investor in Stripe, and so seeing what they did sort of spurred us to think about this, but I think we've talked about this before, also, on theCUBE, even back, long ago in the VMware days, we looked very seriously at buying Heroku, one of the early players, and still around, obviously, at Salesforce in this PaaS space, and every single infrastructure conversation I've had from the start, I have to come back to myself and come back to everyone else and just say, don't forget, the only reason any infrastructure even exists is to run applications. And as we talked about, the first generation of cloud, it was about, let's make the infrastructure disappear, and make it programmatic, but I think even that, we're realizing from developers, that is just still way too low of an abstraction level. You want to write code, you want to have it in GitHub, and you want to just press go, and it should automatically deploy, automatically scale, automatically secure itself, and just let the developer focus purely on the app, and that's a idea that people have been talking about for 20 years, and should continue to talk about, but I really think with Render, we found a way to make it just super easy to deploy and run, and certainly it is big players out there, but it really starts with developers loving the platform, and that's been Anurag's obsession since I met him. >> Yeah, it's interesting, when I first was reading I'm like "Wait," reminds me a lot of somebody like DigitalOcean, cloud for developers who are, Steve, we walked through, the PaaS discussion has gone through so many iterations, what would containerization do for things, or serverless was from its name, I don't need to think about that underlying layer. Anurag, give us a little bit as to how should we think of Render, you are a cloud, but you're not so much, you're not an infrastructure layer, you're not trying to compete against the laundry list of features that AWS, Azure, or Google have, you're a little bit different than some of the previous PaaS players, and you're not serverless, so, what is Render? >> Yeah, it is actually a new category that has come about because of the advent of containers, and because of container orchestration tools, and all of the surrounding technologies, that make it possible for companies like Render to innovate on top of those things, and provide experiences to developers that are essentially serverless, so by serverless you could mean one of two things, or many things really, but the way in which Render is serverless is you just don't have to think about servers, all you need to do is connect your code to GitHub, and give Render a quick start command for your server and a build command if needed, and we suggest a lot of those values ourselves, and then every push to your GitHub repo deploys a new version of your service. And then if you wanted to check out pull requests, which is a way developers test out code before actually pushing it to deployment, every pull request ends up creating a new instance of your service, and you can do everything from a single static site, to building complex clusters of several microservices, as well as managed Postgres, things like clustered Kafka and Elasticsearch, and really one way to think about Render, is it is the platform that every company ends up building internally, and spends a lot of time and money to build, and we're just doing it once for everyone and doing it right, and this is what we specialize in, so you don't have to. >> Yeah, just to add to that if I could, Stu, what's I think interesting is that we've had and talked about a lot of startups doing a lot of different things, and there's a huge amount of complexity to enable all of this to work at scale, and to make it work with all the things you look for, whether it's storage or CDNs, or metrics and alerting and monitoring, all of these little startups that we've gone through and big companies alike, if you could just hide that entirely from the developer and just make it super easy to use and deploy, that's been the mission that Anurag's been on to start, and as you hear it from some of the early customers, and how they're increasing the usage, it's just that love of making it simple that is key in this space. >> All right, yeah, Anurag, maybe it would really help illustrate things if you could talk a little bit about some of your early customers, their use case, and give us what stats you can about how your company's growing. >> Certainly. So, one of our more prominent customers was the Pete Buttigieg campaign, which ran through most of 2019, and through the first couple of months of 2020. And they moved to us from Google Cloud, because they just could not or did not want to deal with the complexity in today's standard infrastructure providers, where you get a VM and then you have to figure out how to work with it, or even Managed Kubernetes, actually, they were trying to run on Managed Kubernetes on GKE, and that was too complex or too much to manage for the team. And so they moved all of their infrastructure over to Render, and they were able to service billions of requests over the next few months, just on our platform, and every time Pete Buttigieg went on stage during a debate and said "Oh, go to PeteForAmerica.com," there's a huge spike in traffic on our platform, and it scaled with every debate. And so that's just one example of where really high quality engineering teams are saying "No, this stuff is too complex, it doesn't need to be," and there is a simpler alternative, and Render is filling in that gap. We also have customers all over, from single indie hackers who are just building out their new project ideas, to late stage companies like Stripe, where we are making sure that we scale with our users, and we give them the things that they would need without them having to "mature" into AWS, or grow into AWS. I think Render is built for the entire lifecycle of a company, which is you start off really easily, and then you grow with us, and that is what we're seeing with Render where a lot of customers are starting out simple and then continuing to grow their usage and their traffic with us. >> Yeah, I was doing some research getting ready for this, Anurag, I saw, not necessarily you're saying that you're cheaper, but there are some times that price can help, performance can be better, if I was a Heroku customer, or an AWS customer, I guess what might be some of the reasons that I'd be considering Render? >> So, for Heroku, I think the comparison of course, there's a big difference in price, because we think Heroku is significantly overpriced, because they have a perpetual free tier, and so their paid customers end up footing the bill for that. We don't have a perpetual free tier that way, we make sure that our paid customers pay what's fair, but more importantly, we have features that just haven't been available in any platform as a service up until now, for example, you cannot spin up persistent storage, block storage, in Heroku, you cannot set up private networking in Heroku as a developer, unless you pay for some crazy enterprise tier which is 1500, 3000 dollars a month. And Render just builds all of that into the platform out of the box, and when it comes to AWS, again, there's no comparison in terms of ease of use, we'll never be cheaper than AWS, that's not our goal either, it's our goal to make sure that you never have to deal with the complexity of AWS while still giving you all of the functionality that you would need from AWS, and when you think about applications as applications and services as opposed to applications that are running on servers, that's where Render makes it much easier for developers and development teams to say "Look, we don't actually need "to hire hundreds of DevOps people," we can significantly reduce our DevOps team and the existing DevOps team that we have can focus on application-level concerns, like performance. >> All right, so Steve, I guess, a couple questions for you, number one is, we haven't talked about security yet, which I know is a topic near and dear to your heart, was one of the early concerns about cloud, but now often is a driver to move to cloud, give us the security angle for this space. >> Yeah, I mean the key thing in all of the space is to get rid of the complexity, and complexity and human error is often, as we've talked about, that is the number one security problem. So by taking this fresh approach that's all about just the application, and a very simple GitOps-based workflow for it, you're not going to have the human error that typically has misconfigured things and coming into there, I think more broadly, the overall notion of the serverless world has also been a very nice move forward for security. If you're only bringing up and taking down the pieces of the application as needed, they're not there to be hacked or attacked. So I think for those two reasons, this is really a more modern way of looking at it, and again, I think we've talked about many times, security is the bane of DevOps, it's the slowest part of any deployment, and the more we get rid of that, the more the extra value proposition comes safer and also faster to deploy. >> The question I'd like to hear both of you is, the role of the developer has changed an awful lot. Five years ago, if I talked to companies, and they were trying to bring DevOps to the enterprise, or anything like that, it seemed like they were doomed, but things have matured, we all understand how important the developer is, and it feels like that line between the infrastructure team and the developer team is starting to move, or at least have tools and communication happening between them, I'd love, maybe Steve if you can give us a little bit your macroview of it, and Anurag, where that plays for Render too. >> Yeah, and Anurag especially would be able to go into our existing customers. What I love about Render, this is a completely clean sheet approach to thinking about, get rid of infrastructure, just make it all go away, and have it be purely there for the developers. Certainly the infrastructure people need to audit and make sure that you're passing the certifications and make sure that it has acceptable security, and data retention and all those other pieces, but that becomes Anurag's problem, not the developer problem. And so that's really how you look at it. The second thing I've seen across all these startups, you don't typically have, especially, you're not talking about startups, but mid-sized companies and above, they don't convert all the way to DevOps. You typically have people peeling off individual projects, and trying to move faster, and use some new approach for those, and then as those hopefully go successful, more and more of the existing projects will begin to move over there, and so what Render's been doing, and what we've been hoping from the start, is let's attract some of the key developers and key new projects, and then word will spread within the companies from there, but so the answer, and a lot of these companies make developers love you, and make the infrastructure team at least support you. >> Yeah, and that was a really good point about developers and infrastructure, DevOps people, the line between them sort of thinning, and becoming more of a gray area, I think that's absolutely right, I think the developers want to continue to think about code, but then, in today's environment, outside of Render when we see things like AWS, and things like DigitalOcean, you still see developers struggling. And in some ways, Render is making it easy for smaller companies and developers and startups to use the same best practices that a fully fledged DevOps team would give them, and then for larger companies, again, it makes it much easier for them to focus their efforts on business development and making sure they're building features for their users, and making their apps more secure outside of the infrastructure realm, and not spending as much time just herding servers, and making those servers more secure. To give you an example, Render's machines aren't even accessible from the public internet, where our workloads run, so there's no firewall to configure, really, for your app, there's no DMZ, there's no VPN. And then when you want to make sure that you're just, you want a private network, that's just built into Render along with service discovery. All your services are visible to each other, but not to anyone else. And just setting those things up, on something like AWS, and then managing it on an ongoing basis, is a huge, huge, huge cost in terms of resources, and people. >> All right, so Anurag, you just opened your first region, in Europe, Frankfurt if I remember right. Give us a little bit as to what growth we should expect, what you're seeing, and how you're going to be expanding your services. >> Yeah, so the expansion to Europe was by far our most requested feature, we had a lot of European users using Render, even though our servers were, until now, based in the US. In fact, one of, or perhaps the largest recipe-sharing site in Italy was using Render, even though the servers were in the US, and all their users were in Italy, and when we moved to Europe, that was like, it was Christmas come early for them, and they just started moving over things to our European region. But that's just the start, we have to make sure that we make compute as accessible to everyone, not just in the US or Europe but also in other places, so we're looking forward to expanding in Asia, to expanding in South America, and even Africa. And our goal is to make sure that your applications can run in a way that is completely transparent to where they're running, and you can even say "Look, I just want my application to run "in these four regions across the globe, "you figure out how to do it," and we will. And that's really the sort of dream that a lot of platforms as service have been selling, but haven't been able to deliver yet, and I think, again, Render is sort of this, at this point in time, where we can work on those crazy crazy dreams that we've been selling all along, and actually make them happen for companies that have been burned by platforms as a service before. >> Yeah, I guess it brings up a question, you talk about platforms, and one of the original ideas of PaaS and one of the promises of containerization was, I should be able to focus on my code and not think about where it lives, but part of that was, if I need to be able to run it somewhere else, or want to be able to move it somewhere else, that I can. So that whole discussion of portability, in the Kubernetes space, it definitely is something that gets talked quite a bit about. And can I move my code, so where does multicloud fit into your customers' environments, Anurag, and is it once they come onto Render, they're happy and it's easy and they're just doing it, or are there things that they develop on Render and then run somewhere else also, maybe for a region that you don't have, how does multicloud fit into your customers' world? >> That's a great question, and I think that multicloud is a reality that will continue to exist, and just grow over time, because not every cloud provider can give you every possible service you can think of, obviously, and so we have customers who are using, say, Redshift, on AWS, but they still want to run their compute workloads on Render. And as a result, they connect to AWS from their services running on Render. The other thing to point out here, is that Render does not force you into a specific paradigm of programming. So you can take your existing apps that have been containerized, or not, and just run them as-is on Render, and then if you don't like Render for whatever reason, you can take them away without really changing anything in your app, and run them somewhere else. Now obviously, you'll have to build out all the other things that Render gives you out of the box, but we don't lock you in by forcing you to program in a way that, for example, AWS Lambda does. And when it comes to the future, multicloud, I think Render will continue to run in all the major clouds, as well as our own data centers, and make sure that our customers can run the appropriate workloads wherever they are, as well as connect to them from the Render services with ease. >> Excellent. >> And maybe I'll make one more point if I could, Stu, which is one thing I've been excited to watch is the, in any of these platform as a services, you can't do everything yourself, so you want the opensource package vendors and other folks to really buy into this platform too, and one exciting thing we've seen at Render is a lot of the big opensource packages are saying "Boy, it'd be easier for our customers to use our opensource "if it were running on Render." And so this ecosystem and this set of packages that you can use will just be easier and easier over time, and I think that's going to lead to, at the end of the day people would like to be able to move their applications and have it run anywhere, and I think by having those services here, ultimately they're going to deploy to AWS or Google or somewhere else, but it is really the right abstraction layer for letting people build the app they want, that's going to be future-proof. >> Excellent, well Steve and Anurag, thank you so much for the update, great to hear about Render, look forward to hearing more updates in the future. >> Thank you, Stu. >> Thanks, Stu, good to talk to you. >> All right, and stay tuned, lots more coverage, if you go to theCUBE.net you can see all of the events that we're doing with remote coverage, as well as the back catalog of what we've done. I'm Stu Miniman, thank you for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Cube's live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS reinforce 2022. I'm John fur, host of the cube with Dave. Valante my co-host for breaking analysis, famous podcast, Dave, great to see you. Um, Beck in Boston, 2010, we started >>The queue. It all started right here in this building. John, >>12 years ago, we started here, but here, you know, just 12 years, it just seems like a marathon with the queue. Over the years, we've seen many ways. You call yourself a historian, which you are. We are both now, historians security is doing over. And we said in 2013 is security to do where we asked pat GSK. Now the CEO of Intel prior to that, he was the CEO of VMware. This is the security show fors. It's called the reinforce. They have reinvent, which is their big show. Now they have these, what they call reshow, re Mars, machine learning, automation, um, robotics and space. And then they got reinforced, which is security. It's all about security in the cloud. So great show. Lot of talk about the keynotes were, um, pretty, I wouldn't say generic on one hand, but specific in the other clear AWS posture, we were both watching. What's your take? >>Well, John, actually looking back to may of 2010, when we started the cube at EMC world, and that was the beginning of this massive boom run, uh, which, you know, finally, we're starting to see some, some cracks of the armor. Of course, we're threats of recession. We're in a recession, most likely, uh, in inflationary pressures, interest rate hikes. And so, you know, finally the tech market has chilled out a little bit and you have this case before we get into the security piece of is the glass half full or half empty. So budgets coming into this year, it was expected. They would grow at a very robust eight point half percent CIOs have tuned that down, but it's still pretty strong at around 6%. And one of the areas that they really have no choice, but to focus on is security. They moved everything into the cloud or a lot of stuff into the cloud. >>They had to deal with remote work and that created a lot of security vulnerabilities. And they're still trying to figure that out and plug the holes with the lack of talent that they have. So it's interesting re the first reinforc that we did, which was also here in 2019, Steven Schmidt, who at the time was chief information security officer at Amazon web services said the state of cloud security is really strong. All this narrative, like the pat Gelsinger narrative securities, a do over, which you just mentioned, security is broken. It doesn't help the industry. The state of cloud security is very strong. If you follow the prescription. Well, see, now Steven Schmidt, as you know, is now chief security officer at Amazon. So we followed >>Jesse all Amazon, not just AWS. So >>He followed Jesse over and I asked him, well, why no, I, and they said, well, he's responsible now for physical security. Presumably the warehouses I'm like, well, wait a minute. What about the data centers? Who's responsible for that? So it's kind of funny, CJ. Moses is now the CSO at AWS and you know, these events are, are good. They're growing. And it's all about best practices, how to apply the practices. A lot of recommendations from, from AWS, a lot of tooling and really an ecosystem because let's face it. Amazon doesn't have the breadth and depth of tools to do it alone. >>And also the attendance is interesting, cuz we are just in New York city for the, uh, ado summit, 19,000 people, massive numbers, certainly in the pandemic. That's probably one of the top end shows and it was a summit. This is a different audience. It's security. It's really nerdy. You got OT, you got cloud. You've got on-prem. So now you have cloud operations. We're calling super cloud. Of course we're having our inaugural pilot event on August 9th, check it out. We're called super cloud, go to the cube.net to check it out. But this is the super cloud model evolving with security. And what you're hearing today, Dave, I wanna get your reaction to this is things like we've got billions of observational points. We're certainly there's no perimeter, right? So the perimeter's dead. The new perimeter, if you will, is every transaction at scale. So you have to have a new model. So security posture needs to be rethought. They actually said that directly on the keynote. So security, although numbers aren't as big as last week or two weeks ago in New York still relevant. So alright. There's sessions here. There's networking. Very interesting demographic, long hair. Lot of >>T-shirts >>No lot of, not a lot of nerds doing to build out things over there. So, so I gotta ask you, what's your reaction to this scale as the new advantage? Is that a tailwind or a headwind? What's your read? >>Well, it is amazing. I mean he actually, Steven Schmidt talked about quadrillions of events every month, quadrillions 15 zeros. What surprised me, John. So they, they, Amazon talks about five areas, but by the, by the way, at the event, they got five tracks in 125 sessions, data protection and privacy, GRC governance, risk and compliance, identity network security and threat detection. I was really surprised given the focus on developers, they didn't call out container security. I would've thought that would be sort of a separate area of focus, but to your point about scale, it's true. Amazon has a scale where they'll see events every day or every month that you might not see in a generation if you just kind of running your own data center. So I do think that's, that's, that's, that's a, a, a, a valid statement having said that Amazon's got a limited capability in terms of security. That's why they have to rely on the ecosystem. Now it's all about APIs connecting in and APIs are one of the biggest security vulnerability. So that's kind of, I, I I'm having trouble squaring that circle. >>Well, they did just to come up, bring back to the whole open source and software. They did say they did make a measurement was store, but at the beginning, Schmidt did say that, you know, besides scale being an advantage for Amazon with a quadri in 15 zeros, don't bolt on security. So that's a classic old school. We've heard that before, right. But he said specifically, weave in security in the dev cycles. And the C I C D pipeline that is, that basically means shift left. So sneak is here, uh, company we've covered. Um, and they, their whole thing is shift left. That implies Docker containers that implies Kubernetes. Um, but this is not a cloud native show per se. It's much more crypto crypto. You heard about, you know, the, uh, encrypt everything message on the keynote. You heard, um, about reasoning, quantum, quantum >>Skating to the puck. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, you know, although the middleman is logged for J heard that little little mention, I love the quote from Lewis Hamilton that they put up on stage CJ, Moses said, team behind the scenes make it happen. So a big emphasis on teamwork, big emphasis on don't bolt on security, have it in the beginning. We've heard that before a lot of threat modeling discussions, uh, and then really this, you know, the news around the cloud audit academy. So clearly skills gap, more threats, more use cases happening than ever before. >>Yeah. And you know, to your point about, you know, the teamwork, I think the problem that CISOs have is they just don't have the talent to that. AWS has. So they have a real difficulty applying that talent. And so but's saying, well, join us at these shows. We'll kind of show you how to do it, how we do it internally. And again, I think when you look out on this ecosystem, there's still like thousands and thousands of tools that practitioners have to apply every time. There's a tool, there's a separate set of skills to really understand that tool, even within AWS's portfolio. So this notion of a shared responsibility model, Amazon takes care of, you know, securing for instance, the physical nature of S3 you're responsible for secure, make sure you're the, the S3 bucket doesn't have public access. So that shared responsibility model is still very important. And I think practitioners still struggling with all this complexity in this matrix of tools. >>So they had the layered defense. So, so just a review opening keynote with Steve Schmidt, the new CSO, he talked about weaving insecurity in the dev cycles shift left, which is the, I don't bolt it on keep in the beginning. Uh, the lessons learned, he talked a lot about over permissive creates chaos, um, and that you gotta really look at who has access to what and why big learnings there. And he brought up the use cases. The more use cases are coming on than ever before. Um, layered defense strategy was his core theme, Dave. And that was interesting. And he also said specifically, no, don't rely on single security control, use multiple layers, stronger together. Be it it from the beginning, basically that was the whole ethos, the posture, he laid that down >>And he had a great quote on that. He said, I'm sorry to interrupt single controls. And binary states will fail guaranteed. >>Yeah, that's a guarantee that was basically like, that's his, that's not a best practice. That's a mandate. <laugh> um, and then CJ, Moses, who was his deputy in the past now takes over a CSO, um, ownership across teams, ransomware mitigation, air gaping, all that kind of in the weeds kind of security stuff. You want to check the boxes on. And I thought he did a good job. Right. And he did the news. He's the new CISO. Okay. Then you had lean is smart from Mongo DB. Come on. Yeah. Um, she was interesting. I liked her talk, obviously. Mongo is one of the ecosystem partners headlining game. How do you read into that? >>Well, I, I I'm, its really interesting. Right? You didn't see snowflake up there. Right? You see data breaks up there. You had Mongo up there and I'm curious is her and she's coming on the cube tomorrow is her primary role sort of securing Mongo internally? Is it, is it securing the Mongo that's running across clouds. She's obviously here talking about AWS. So what I make of it is, you know, that's, it's a really critical partner. That's driving a lot of business for AWS, but at the same time it's data, they talked about data security being one of the key areas that you have to worry about and that's, you know what Mongo does. So I'm really excited. I talked to her >>Tomorrow. I, I did like her mention a big idea, a cube alumni, yeah. Company. They were part of our, um, season one of our eight of us startup showcase, check out AWS startups.com. If you're watching this, we've been doing now, we're in season two, we're featuring the fastest growing hottest startups in the ecosystem. Not the big players, that's ISVs more of the startups. They were mentioned. They have a great product. So I like to mention a big ID. Um, security hub mentioned a config. They're clearly a big customer and they have user base, a lot of E C, two and storage going on. People are building on Mongo so I can see why they're in there. The question I want to ask you is, is Mongo's new stuff in line with all the upgrades in the Silicon. So you got graviton, which has got great stuff. Um, great performance. Do you see that, that being a key part of things >>Well, specifically graviton. So I I'll tell you this. I'll tell you what I know when you look at like snowflake, for instance, is optimizing for graviton. For certain workloads, they actually talked about it on their earnings call, how it's lowered the cost for customers and actually hurt their revenue. You know, they still had great revenue, but it hurt their revenue. My sources indicate to me that that, that Mongo is not getting as much outta graviton two, but they're waiting for graviton three. Now they don't want to make that widely known because they don't wanna dis AWS. But it's, it's probably because Mongo's more focused on analytics. But so to me, graviton is the future. It's lower cost. >>Yeah. Nobody turns off the database. >>Nobody turns off the database. >><laugh>, it's always cranking C two cycles. You >>Know the other thing I wanted to bring, bring up, I thought we'd hear, hear more about ransomware. We heard a little bit of from Kirk Coel and he, and he talked about all these things you could do to mitigate ransomware. He didn't talk about air gaps and that's all you hear is how air gap. David Flo talks about this all the time. You must have air gaps. If you wanna, you know, cover yourself against ransomware. And they didn't even mention that. Now, maybe we'll hear that from the ecosystem. That was kind of surprising. Then I, I saw you made a note in our shared doc about encryption, cuz I think all the talk here is encryption at rest. What about data in motion? >>Well, this, this is the last guy that came on the keynote. He brought up encryption, Kurt, uh, Goel, which I love by the way he's VP of platform. I like his mojo. He's got the long hair >>And he's >>Geeking out swagger, but I, he hit on some really cool stuff. This idea of the reasoning, right? He automated reasoning is little pet project that is like killer AI. That's next generation. Next level >>Stuff. Explain that. >>So machine learning does all kinds of things, you know, goes to sit pattern, supervise, unsupervised automate stuff, but true reasoning. Like no one connecting the dots with software. That's like true AI, right? That's really hard. Like in word association, knowing how things are connected, looking at pattern and deducing things. So you predictive analytics, we all know comes from great machine learning. But when you start getting into deduction, when you say, Hey, that EC two cluster never should be on the same VPC, is this, this one? Why is this packet trying to go there? You can see patterns beyond normal observation space. So if you have a large observation space like AWS, you can really put some killer computer science technology on this. And that's where this reasoning is. It's next level stuff you don't hear about it because nobody does it. Yes. I mean, Google does it with metadata. There's meta meta reasoning. Um, we've been, I've been watching this for over two decades now. It's it's a part of AI that no one's tapped and if they get it right, this is gonna be a killer part of the automation. So >>He talked about this, basically it being advanced math that gets you to provable security, like you gave an example. Another example I gave is, is this S3 bucket open to the public is a, at that access UN restricted or unrestricted, can anyone access my KMS keys? So, and you can prove, yeah. The answer to that question using advanced math and automated reasoning. Yeah, exactly. That's a huge leap because you used to be use math, but you didn't have the data, the observation space and the compute power to be able to do it in near real time or real time. >>It's like, it's like when someone, if in the physical world real life in real life, you say, Hey, that person doesn't belong here. Or you, you can look at something saying that doesn't fit <laugh> >>Yeah. Yeah. >>So you go, okay, you observe it and you, you take measures on it or you query that person and say, why you here? Oh, okay. You're here. It doesn't fit. Right. Think about the way on the right clothes, the right look, whatever you kind of have that data. That's deducing that and getting that information. That's what reasoning is. It's it's really a killer level. And you know, there's encrypt, everything has to be data. Lin has to be data in at movement at rest is one thing, but you gotta get data in flight. Dave, this is a huge problem. And making that work is a key >>Issue. The other thing that Kirk Coel talked about was, was quantum, uh, quantum proof algorithms, because basically he put up a quote, you're a hockey guy, Wayne Greski. He said the greatest hockey player ever. Do you agree? I do agree. Okay, great. >>Bobby or, and Wayne Greski. >>Yeah, but okay, so we'll give the nada Greski, but I always skate to the where the puck is gonna be not to where it's been. And basically his point was where skating to where quantum is going, because quantum, it brings risks to basically blow away all the existing crypto cryptographic algorithms. I, I, my understanding is N just came up with new algorithms. I wasn't clear if those were supposed to be quantum proof, but I think they are, and AWS is testing them. And AWS is coming out with, you know, some test to see if quantum can break these new algos. So that's huge. The question is interoperability. Yeah. How is it gonna interact with all the existing algorithms and all the tools that are out there today? So I think we're a long way off from solving that problem. >>Well, that was one of Kurt's big point. You talking about quantum resistant cryptography and they introduce hybrid post quantum key agreements. That means KMS cert certification, cert manager and manager all can manage the keys. This was something that's gives more flexibility on, on, on that quantum resistance argument. I gotta dig into it. I really don't know how it works, what he meant by that in terms of what does that hybrid actually mean? I think what it means is multi mode and uh, key management, but we'll see. >>So I come back to the ho the macro for a second. We've got consumer spending under pressure. Walmart just announced, not great earning. Shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. We have Amazon meta and alphabet announcing this weekend. I think Microsoft. Yep. So everybody's on edge, you know, is this gonna ripple through now? The flip side of that is BEC because the economy yeah. Is, is maybe not in, not such great shape. People are saying maybe the fed is not gonna raise after September. Yeah. So that's, so that's why we come back to this half full half empty. How does that relate to cyber security? Well, people are prioritizing cybersecurity, but it's not an unlimited budget. So they may have to steal from other places. >>It's a double whammy. Dave, it's a double whammy on the spend side and also the macroeconomic. So, okay. We're gonna have a, a recession that's predicted the issue >>On, so that's bad on the one hand, but it's good from a standpoint of not raising interest rates, >>It's one of the double whammy. It was one, it's one of the double whammy and we're talking about here, but as we sit on the cube two weeks ago at <inaudible> summit in New York, and we did at re Mars, this is the first recession where the cloud computing hyperscale is, are pumping full cylinder, all cylinders. So there's a new economic engine called cloud computing that's in place. So unlike data center purchase in the past, that was CapEx. When, when spending was hit, they pause was a complete shutdown. Then a reboot cloud computer. You can pause spending for a little bit, make, might make the cycle longer in sales, but it's gonna be quickly fast turned on. So, so turning off spending with cloud is not that hard to do. You can hit pause and like check things out and then turn it back on again. So that's just general cloud economics with security though. I don't see the spending slowing down. Maybe the sales cycles might go longer, but there's no spending slow down in my mind that I see. And if there's any pause, it's more of refactoring, whether it's the crypto stuff or new things that Amazon has. >>So, so that's interesting. So a couple things there. I do think you're seeing a slight slow down in the, the, the ex the velocity of the spend. When you look at the leaders in spending velocity in ETR data, CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Palo Alto networks, they're all showing a slight deceleration in spending momentum, but still highly elevated. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's a, I think now to your other point, really interesting. What you're saying is cloud spending is discretionary. That's one of the advantages. I can dial it down, but track me if I'm wrong. But most of the cloud spending is with reserved instances. So ultimately you're buying those reserved instances and you have to spend over a period of time. So they're ultimately AWS is gonna see that revenue. They just might not see it for this one quarter. As people pull back a little bit, right. >>It might lag a little bit. So it might, you might not see it for a quarter or two, so it's impact, but it's not as severe. So the dialing up, that's a key indicator get, I think I'm gonna watch that because that's gonna be something that we've never seen before. So what's that reserve now the wild card and all this and the dark horse new services. So there's other services besides the classic AC two, but security and others. There's new things coming out. So to me, this is absolutely why we've been saying super cloud is a thing because what's going on right now in security and cloud native is there's net new functionality that needs to be in place to handle multiple clouds, multiple abstraction layers, and to do all these super cloudlike capabilities like Mike MongoDB, like these vendors, they need to up their gain. And that we're gonna see new cloud native services that haven't exist. Yeah. I'll use some hatchy Corp here. I'll use something over here. I got some VMware, I got this, but there's gaps. Dave, there'll be gaps that are gonna emerge. And I think that's gonna be a huge wild >>Cup. And now I wanna bring something up on the super cloud event. So you think about the layers I, as, uh, PAs and, and SAS, and we see super cloud permeating, all those somebody ask you, well, because we have Intuit coming on. Yep. If somebody asks, why Intuit in super cloud, here's why. So we talked about cloud being discretionary. You can dial it down. We saw that with snowflake sort of Mongo, you know, similarly you can, if you want dial it down, although transaction databases are to do, but SAS, the SAS model is you pay for it every month. Okay? So I've, I've contended that the SAS model is not customer friendly. It's not cloudlike and it's broken for customers. And I think it's in this decade, it's gonna get fixed. And people are gonna say, look, we're gonna move SAS into a consumption model. That's more customer friendly. And that's something that we're >>Gonna explore in the super cloud event. Yeah. And one more thing too, on the spend, the other wild card is okay. If we believe super cloud, which we just explained, um, if you don't come to the August 9th event, watch the debate happen. But as the spending gets paused, the only reason why spending will be paused in security is the replatforming of moving from tools to platforms. So one of the indicators that we're seeing with super cloud is a flight to best of breeds on platforms, meaning hyperscale. So on Amazon web services, there's a best of breed set of services from AWS and the ecosystem on Azure. They have a few goodies there and customers are making a choice to use Azure for certain things. If they, if they have teams or whatever or office, and they run all their dev on AWS. So that's kind of what's happened. So that's, multi-cloud by our definition is customers two clouds. That's not multi-cloud, as in things are moving around. Now, if you start getting data planes in there, these customers want platforms. If I'm a cybersecurity CSO, I'm moving to platforms, not just tools. So, so maybe CrowdStrike might have it dial down, but a little bit, but they're turning into a platform. Splunk trying to be a platform. Okta is platform. Everybody's scale is a platform. It's a platform war right now, Dave cyber, >>A right paying identity. They're all plat platform, beach products. We've talked about that a lot in the queue. >>Yeah. Well, great stuff, Dave, let's get going. We've got two days alive coverage. Here is a cubes at, in Boston for reinforc 22. I'm Shante. We're back with our guests coming on the queue at the short break.