>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. >>These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome to Episode one of Cloud Native Insights. So this is a new program brought to you by Silicon Angle Media's The Cube. I am your host stew minimum, and we're going to be digging in to cloud native and, of course, cloud native like cloud before kind of a generic term. If you look at it online, there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of jargon out there, and so we want to help. Understand what? This is what This isn't on And really happy to welcome back to the program to help me kick it off you piss car. He is an industry analyst. His company is T l A Tech. You. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thanks, Dave. Glad we're >>all right. And one of the reasons I wanted you to help me kick this off. Not only have you been on the Cube, you know your background. I met you when you were the cto of a service provider over there in Europe, where you're Netherlands based. You were did strategy for a very large ah, supermarket chain also. And you've been on the program that shows like docker con in the past. You work in the cloud native space you've done consulting for. Some of the companies will be talking about today. But you help me kick this off a little bit. When you heard here the term cloud native. Does that mean anything to you? Did that mean anything back in your previous roles? You know, help us tee that up. >>So, you know, it kind of gives off a certain direction and where people are going. Right. Um so to me, Cloud native is more about the way you use cloud, not necessarily about the cloud services themselves. So, you know, for instance, I'll take the example of the supermarket. They had a big e commerce presence. And so we were come getting them to a place where they could, in smaller teams, deploy software in a faster, more often and in a safer way so that teams could work independently of each other, work on, you know, adding business value, whatever that may be for any kind of different company. That's a cloud native to me, Connie means using that to the fullest extent, using those services available to you in a way organizationally and culturally. That makes sense to you, you know, Go wherever you need to go. Be that release every hour or, you know, transform your s AP environment to something that is more nimble, more flexible, literally more agile. So what cloud native means so many things to so many people? Because it's immediately is not directly about the technology, but how you actually use it. >>Um, and u Pua and I are in, you know, strong agreement on this thing. One is you've noticed we haven't said kubernetes yet. We haven't talked about containers because cloud native is not about the tooling. We're, you know, strong participants in you know, the CN CF activities. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, cube con and cloud native is a huge show. Great momentum one. We're big fans of too often people would conflate and they'd say, Oh, cloud native equals. I'm doing containers and I've, you know, deployed kubernetes one of the challenges out there. You talk about companies, you know? Well, you know, I had a cloud first initiative and I'm using multi cloud and all this stuff. It's like, Well, are you actually leveraging these capabilities, or did I shove things in something I'd railed about for the last couple of years? You talk about repatriation, and repatriation is often I went to go do cloud. I didn't really understand what I was doing. I didn't understand how to leverage that stuff. And I crawled back to what I was doing before because I knew how to do that. Well, so, you know, I think you said it really well. Cloud native means I'm taking advantage of the services. I'm doing things in a much more modern way. The thing I've loved talking to practitioners and one of things I want to do on this program absolutely is talk to practitioners is how have you gone through things organizationally, there are lots of things right now. Talk about like, thin ops. And, of course, all the spin off from Dev Ops and Dev SEC ops. And, like, how are we breaking through silos? How we're modernizing our environments, how we're taking advantage of new ways of doing things and new services. So yeah, I guess you You know, there are some really cool tools out there. Those are awesome things. But, you know, I love your viewpoint. Your perspective on often people in tech are like, Hey, I have this really cool new tool that I can use, you know? Can I take advantage of that? You know, do I do things in a new way, or do I just kind of take my old way and just make things maybe a little incrementally better? Hopefully with some new tooling. >>Oh, yeah. I mean, I totally agree. Um, you know, tooling is cool. Let me let me start by saying that I You know, I'm an engineer by heart, so I love tinkering with new new stuff. So I love communities I love. Um, you know that a new terra form released, for instance, I love seeing competition in the container orchestration space. I love driving into K native server lists. You know, all those technologies I like, But it is a matter of, you know, what can you do with them, right. So, for instance, has she corporate line of mine? I work on their hashtag off. Even they offer kind of Ah, not necessarily an alternative, but kind of adjacent approach to you what the CNC F is doing, and even in those cases, and I'm up specifically calling out Hashi Corp. But I'm kind of giving. The broader overview is, um, it doesn't actually matter what to use, Even though it'll help me. It'll make me happy just to play around with them. But those new tools have to mean something. They have to solve a particular problem. You have either in speed of delivery or consistency of delivery or quality of service, the thing you are building for your customers. So it has to mean something. So back in the day when I started out in engineering 15 years ago, a lot of the engineering loss for the sake of engineering just because, you know you could create a piece of infrastructure a little faster, but there was no actual business value to be out there. That's a lot of the engineering kind of was stuck inside of its own realm, or as what you see now is, if you can use terraform and actually get all of you know the potential out of you, it allow you to release offer more quickly because you're able to stand up infrastructure for that software more quickly. And so you know, we've kind of shifted from back in the in the attic or in the basement doing I t. Stuff that no one really understands. The one kind of perceives the business value of it into the realm of okay, If we can deploy this faster or we don't even need to use a server, we can use server lists. Then we have an advantage in the marketplace. You know, whatever marketplace that is, whatever application we're talking about. And so that's the difference to me. And that was that. You know, that's what CN CF is doing to me. That is what has she Corpus is helping build. That is what you know. A lot of companies that built, for instance, a managed kubernetes service. But from nine spectral crowd, all those kinds of companies, they will help, you know, a given customer to speed up their delivery, to not care about the underlying infrastructure anymore. And that's what this is all about to me. And that is what cloud native means use it in a way that I don't actually have to do the toil off the engineering anymore. There's loads of smart people working for, you know, the Big Three cloud vendors. There's loads of people working for those manage service providers, but he's used them so that you can speed up your delivery, create better software created faster, make customers happy. >>Yeah, it's a lot to unpack there. I want to talk a little bit about that landscape, right When you talk about, you know, cloud native, maybe a little compare contrast I think about, you know, the wave of Dev ops and for often people like, you know, Dev Ops. You know, that's a cultural movement. But there's also tooling that I could buy to help me along that weighs automation, you know, going agile methodology. See, I CD are all things that you're like. Well, is this part of Dev Ops, isn't it? There's lots of companies out there that we saw rows rode that wave of Dev ops. And if you talk about cloud native, you know the first thing you know, you start with the cloud providers. So when I hear you talking about, how do we get rid of things that we don't need to worry about? Well, for years, we heard Amazon Web services talk about getting rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. And it's something that we're huge fans off you talk about. What is the business outcome? It's not. Hey, I went from, you know, a stand alone server to I did virtualized environments. And now I'm looking container ization or serverless. What can I get rid of? How do I take advantage of native services and all of those cloud platforms? One of the huge values there is, it isn't Hey, I deployed this and maybe it's a little bit cheaper and maybe a little better. But there's that that is really the center of where innovation is happening not only from the platform providers they're setting themselves, but from that ecosystem. And I guess I'll put it out there. One of the things I would like to see from Cloud Native should be that I should be able to take care of take advantage of innovation wherever it is. So Cloud Native does not mean it must live in the public cloud. It does not necessarily mean that I'm going, you know, full bore, multi cloud everywhere. I've had some great debates with Corey Quinn, on the Cube Online and the like, because if you look at customer environments today, you know, yes, they absolutely have their data centers. They're leveraging, typically more than one public cloud. SAS is a big part of the picture and then edge computing and pulls everything away into a much more distributed architecture. So, you know, I'm glad you brought up. You know, Hashi, a company you're working with really interesting. And if you talk about cloud native, it's there. They're not trying to get people to, oh, use multiple clouds because it's good for us. It's they. Hey, the reality is that you're probably using multiple clouds, and whether it's one cloud or many clouds or even in your data center, we have a set of tools that we can offer you. So you know, Hashi, you mentioned, you know, terra form vault. You know, the various tooling is that they have open source, you know, big play in this environment, both under the CN CF umbrella and beyond. Give us a little bit as to, you know, where are the interesting places where you see either vendors and technology today, or opportunity to make these solutions better for users. >>So that's an interesting question, because I literally don't know where to begin. The spectrum is so so broad, it's all start off with a joke on this, right? You cannot buy that helps. But the vendors were sure try and sell it to you. So it's kind of where you know, the battle is is raging on its getting foothold into an organization. Um, and you see that? You know, you see companies like, how is she doing that? Um, they started out with open source tooling that kind of move into the enterprise realm. Um, you solve the issues that enterprises usually have, and that's what the club defenders will trying to you as although you know, the kind of kick start you with a free service and then move you up into their their stack. And that's you know, that's where Cloud native is kind of risky because the landscape is so fragmented, it is really hard to figure out. Okay, this tool, it actually solves my use case versus this one doesn't. But again, it's in the ecosystem in this ecosystem already, so let's let's still use it just because it's easier. Um, but it does boil the disk a lot of the discussion down into. Basically, it's a friction. How much effort does it take to start using something? Because that's where and that's basically the issues enterprises are trying to solve. It's around friction, and it used to be friction around, you know, buying servers and then kind of being stuck with him for 4 to 5 years. But now it is the vendor lock in where people in organizations have to make tough decisions. You know, what ecosystems am I going to buy into it? It's It's also where a lot of the multi cloud marketing comes from on the way down to get you into a specific ecosystem on your end companies kind of filling that gap, helping you manage that complexity and how she corpus is one of those examples in my book that help you manage that multi cloud ah challenge. So but yeah, But it is all part of that discussion around friction. >>Yeah, and I guess I would start if you say, as you said, it is such a broad spectrum out there. If you look in the developer tooling marketplace is, there's lots of people that have, you know, landscapes out there. So CN cf even has a great landscape. And you know, things like Security, you no matter wherever I am and everywhere that I am. And there's a lot of effort to try to make sure that I can have something that spans across the environment. Of course, Security, you know, huge issue in general. And right now, Cohen, 19. The global pandemic coming on has been, you know, putting a spotlight on it even more. We know shared responsibility models where security needs to be. Data is at the center of what we're talking about when we've been talking for years about companies going through their transformation, I hadn't talked about, you know, digital transformation. What that means is, at the end of the day, you need to be data driven. So there's lots of companies, you know, big movement and things like ml ops. How can I actually harness my data? I said one of the things I think we got out of the whole big data wave. It was that bit flip from, Oh my God, their data everywhere. And maybe that's a challenge for me. It now becomes an opportunity and often times somewhere that I can have new value or even new business models that we can create around data. So, you know, data security on and everyone is modernizing. So, you know, worry a bit that there is sometimes, you know, cloud native washing. You know, just like everything else. It's, you know, cloud enabled. You know, ai ready from an infrastructure standpoint, you know, how much are you actually leveraging Cloud native? The bar, we always said, is, you know, if you're putting something in your data center, how does that compare against what I could get if I'm doing aws azure or Google type of environment? So I have seen good progress over the last couple of years in what we used to call it Private Cloud. And now it's more Ah, hybrid environment or multi cloud. And it looks and acts and is managed much more like the public cloud at a lot of that. Is that driver for developers? So you know Palmer, you know, developers, developers, developers, you know, absolutely. He was right as to how important that is. And one of the things I've been a little bit hardened at is it used to be. You talked about the enterprise and while the developers were off in the corner and, you know, we need to think about them and help enable them. But now, like the Dev Ops movement, we're trying to break down those silos. You know, developers are much more in the workflow. When I look at tools out there not only get hub, you know, you talked about Hashi, you know, get lab answerable and others. Often they have ways to have nothing to developers. The product owners and others all get visibility into it. Because if you can get, you know, people in the organization all accessing the same work stream the way that they need to have it there. There's goodness there. So I guess final question I have for you is you know, what advice do we have for practitioners themselves? Often, the question is, how do I get from where I've been? So where I'm going, This whole discussion of Cloud native is you know, we spent more than a decade talking about cloud, and it was often the kind of where in the movement and the like So what? I want to tee up with cloud native is discussion, really for the next decade. And you know, if I'm, you know, a c i o If I'm in, i t how do I make sure that I'm ready for these next opportunities while still managing? You know what I have in my own environment. >>So that kind of circles back to where we started this discussion, right? Cloud native and Dev ops and a couple of those methodologies they're not actually about the tooling. They are about what to do with them. Can you leverage them to achieve a goal? And so my biggest advice is Look for that goal. First, have something toward towards because if you have a problem, the solution will present itself. Um, and I'm not saying go look for a problem. The problems, they're already It's a matter of, um, you know, articulating that problem in a way that your developers will actually understand what to do. And then they will go and find the tools that are needed to solve that particular problem. And so we turn this around in a sense that so finally, we are at a point where we can have business problems. Actually, solved by I t in a way that doesn't require, you know, millions of upfront investment or, you know, consultants from an outside company. Your developers are now able to start solving those problems, and it will maybe take a while. They may need some outside help Teoh to figure some stuff out, But the point is, we can now use you know, these cloud resource is these cloud native services in such a small, practical way that we can actually start solving these business problems in a real way. >>Yeah, you actually, earlier this year I've done a series of interviews getting ready for this type of environment. You know, one of the areas I spent a bunch of time trying to dig in. And to be frank, understand has been server lists. So, you know, people very excited about server lists. You know, one of the dynamics always is, You know, everything we're talking about with containers and kubernetes driving them to think about that. I always looked as container ization was kind of moving up the stack in making infrastructure easier. The work for applications, but something like serverless it comes, top down. It's it's more of not the tooling, but how do I build those applications in those environments and not need to think at least as much about the infrastructure? So server lists Absolutely something we will cover, you know, containers, kubernetes what I'm looking for. Always love practitioners love to somebody. You you've been, you know, in that end, user it before startups. Absolutely. We'll be talking to as well as other people you know, in the ecosystem that you want to help, have discussions, have debates. You know, we don't have, you know, a strong. You know, this is the agenda that we have for cloud native, but I really want to help facilitate the dialogue. So I'll give you a final word here. Anything You know, what's exciting you these days when you talk to your peers out there, you know, in general, you know, it can be some tools, even though we understand tools are only a piece of it or any other final tips that you have in this market >>space. Well, I want to kind of go go forward on on your statement earlier about server lists without calling, You know, any specific serverless technology out there specifically, but you're looking at those technologies you'll see, But we're now able to solve those business problems. Um, without actually even needing I t right. So no code low code platforms are very adjacent to you to do serverless movement. Um, and that's where you know, that's what really excites me of this at this point, simply because, you know, we no longer need actual hardcore engineering as a trait Teoh use i t to move the needle forward. And that's what I love about the cloud native movement that it used to be hard. And it's getting simpler in a way also more complex in a way. What we're paying someone else Teoh to solve those issues. So I'm excited to see where you know, no code low code survivalism those the kinds of technologies will take us in the next decade. >>Absolutely wonderful. When you have technology that makes it more globally accessible There, obviously, you know, large generational shifts happening in the workforce. You Thank you so much for joining us, >>actually, Sue. >>All right. And I guess the final call to action really is We are looking for those guests out there, so, you know, practitioners, startups people that have a strong viewpoint. You can reach out to me. My emails just stew Stu at silicon angle dot com where you can hit me up on the twitters. I'm just at stew on there. Also. Eso thank you so much for joining us. Planning to do these in General Weekly cadence. You'll find the articles that go along with these on silicon angle dot com. Of course. All the video on the cube dot net I'm stew minimum in and love to hear more about your cloud Native insights >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe. Of course the event this year was supposed to be in the Netherlands, I know I was very much looking forward to going to Amsterdam. This year of course it's going to be virtual, I'm really excited theCUBE's coverage, we've got some great members of the CNCF, we've got a bunch of end users, we've got some good thought leaders, and I'm also bringing a little bit of the Netherlands to help me bring in and start this keynote analysis, happy to welcome back to the program my cohost for the show, Joep Piscaer, who is an industry analyst with TLA. Thank you, Joep, so much for joining us, and we wish we could be with you in person, and check out your beautiful country. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me Stu, and I'm still a little disappointed we cannot eat the (indistinct foreign term) rijsttafel together this year. >> Oh, yeah, can we just have a segment to explain to people the wonder that is the fusion of Indonesian food and the display that you get only in the Netherlands? Rijsttafel, I seriously had checked all over the US and Canada, when I was younger, to find an equivalent, but one of my favorite culinary delights in the world, but we'll have to put a pin in that. You've had some warm weather in the Netherlands recently, and so many of the Europeans take quite a lot of time off in July and August, but we're going to talk about some hardcore tech, KubeCon, a show we love doing, the European show brings good diversity of experiences and customers from across the globe. So, let's start, the keynote, Priyanka Sharma, the new general manager of the CNCF, of course, just some really smart people that come out and talk about a lot of things. And since it's a foundation show, there's some news in there, but it's more about how they're helping corral all of these projects, of course, a theme we've talked about for a while is KubeCon was the big discussion for many years about Kubernetes, still important, and we'll talk about that, but so many different projects and everything from the sandbox, their incubation, through when they become fully, generally available, so, I guess I'll let you start and step back and say when you look at this broad ecosystem, you work with vendors, you've been from the customer side, what's top of mind for you, what's catching your attention? >> So, I guess from a cloud-native perspective, looking at the CNCF, I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not about any individual technology, isn't about just Kubernetes or just Prometheus, or just service mesh. I think the added value of the CNCF, and the way I look at it at least, looking back at my customer perspective, I would've loved to have a organization curate the technology world around me, for me. To help me out with the decisions on a technology perspective that I needed to make to kind of move forward with my IT stack, and with the requirements my customer had, or my organization had, to kind of move that into the next phase. That is where I see the CNCF come in and do their job really well, to help organizations, both on the vendor side as well as on the customer side, take that next step, see around the corner, what's new, what's coming, and also make sure that between different, maybe even competing standards, the right ones surface up and become the de facto standard for organizations to use. >> Yeah, a lot of good thoughts there, Joep, I want to walk through that stack a little bit, but before we do, big statement that Priyanka made, I thought it was a nice umbrella for her keynote, it's a foundation of doers powering end user driven open-source, so as I mentioned, you worked at a service provider, you've done strategies for some other large organizations, what's your thought on the role of how the end users engage with and contribute to open-source? One of the great findings I saw a couple years ago, as you said, it went from open-source being something that people did on the weekend to the sides, to many end users, and of course lots of vendors, have full-time people that their jobs are to contribute and participate in the open-source communities. >> Yeah, I guess that kind of signals a maturity in the market to me, where organizations are investing in open-source because they know they're going to get something out of it. So back in the day, it was not necessarily certain that if you put a lot of effort into an open-source project, for your own gain, for your own purposes, that that would work out, and that with the backing of the CNCF, as well as so many member organizations and end user organizations, I think participating in open-source becomes easier, because there's more of a guarantee that what you put in will kind of circulate, and come out and have value for you, in a different way. Because if you're working on a service mesh, some other organization might be working on Prometheus, or Kubernetes, or another project, and some organizations are now kind of helping each other with the CNCF as the gatekeeper, to move all of those technology stacks forward, instead of everyone doing it for themselves. Maybe even being forced to reinvent the wheel for some of those technology components. >> So let's walk through the stack a little bit, and the layers that are out there, so let's start with Kubernetes, the discussion has been Kubernetes won the container orchestration battles, but whose Kubernetes am I going to use? For a while it was would it be distributions, we've seen every platform basically has at least one Kubernetes option built into it, so doesn't mean you're necessarily using this, before AWS had their own flavor of Kubernetes, there was at least 15 different ways that you could run Kubernetes on top of it, but now they have ECS, they have EKS, even things like Fargate now work with EKS, so interesting innovation and adoption there. But VMware baked Kubernetes into vSphere 7. Red Hat of course, with OpenShift, has thousands of customers and has great momentum, we saw SUSE buy Rancher to help them move along and make sure that they get embedded there. One of the startups you've worked with, Spectro Cloud, helps play into the mix there, so there is no shortage of options, and then from a management standpoint, companies like Microsoft, Google, VMware, Red Hat, all, how do I manage across clusters, because it's not going to just be one Kubernetes that you're going to use, we're expecting that you're going to have multiple options out there, so it sure doesn't sound boring to me yet, or reached full maturity, Joep. What's your take, what advice do you give to people out there when they say "Hey, okay, I'm going to use Kubernetes," I've got hybrid cloud, or I probably have a couple things, how should they be approaching that and thinking about how they engage with Kubernetes? >> So that's a difficult one, because it can go so many different ways, just because, like you said, the market is maturing. Which means, we're kind of back at where we left off virtualization a couple years ago, where we had managers of managers, managing across different data centers, doing the multicloud thing before it was a cloud thing. We have automation doing day two operations, I saw one of the announcements for this week will be a vendor coming out with day two operations automation, to kind of help simplify that stack of Kubernetes in production. And so the best advice I think I have is, don't try to do it all yourself, right, so Kubernetes is still maturing, it is still fairly open, in a sense that you can change everything, which makes it fairly complex to use and configure. So don't try and do that part yourself, necessarily, either use a managed service, which there are a bunch of, Spectro Cloud, for example, as well as Platform9, even the bigger players are now having those platforms. Because in the end, Kubernetes is kind of the foundation of what you're going to do on top of it. Kubernetes itself doesn't have business value in that sense, so spending a lot of time, especially at the beginning of a project, figuring that part out, I don't think makes sense, especially if the risk and the impact of making mistakes is fairly large. Like, make a mistake in a monitoring product, and you'll be able to fix that problem more easily. But make a mistake in a Kubernetes platform, and that's much more difficult, especially because I see organizations build one cluster to rule them all, instead of leveraging what the cloud offers, which is just spin up another cluster. Even spin it up somewhere else, because we can now do the multicloud thing, we can now manage applications across Kubernetes clusters, we can manage many different clusters from a single pane of glass, so there's really no reason anymore to see that Kubernetes thing as something really difficult that you have to do yourself, hence just do it once. Instead, my recommendation would be to look at your processes and figure out, how can I figure out how to have a Kubernetes cluster for everything I do, maybe that's per team, maybe that's per application or per environment, per cloud, and they kind of work from that, because, again, Kubernetes is not the holy grail, it's not the end state, it is a means to an end, to get where we're going with applications, with developing new functionality for customers. >> Well, I think you hit on a really important point, if you look out in the social discussion, sometimes Kubernetes and multicloud get attacked, because when I talk to customers, they shouldn't have a Kubernetes strategy. They have their business strategy, and there are certain things that they're trying to, "How do I make sure everything's secure," and I'm looking at DevSecOps, I need to really have an edge computing strategy because that's going to help my business objectives, and when I look at some of the tools that are going to help and get me there, well, Kubernetes, the service meshes, some of the other tools in the CNCF are going to help me get there, and as you said, I've got managed services, cloud providers, integrators are going to help me build those solutions without me having to spend years to understand how to do that. So yeah, I'd love to hear any interesting projects you're hearing about, edge computing, the security space has gone from super important to even more important if that's possible in 2020. What are you hearing? >> Yeah, so the most interesting part for me is definitely the DevSecOps movement, where we're basically not even allowed to call it DevOps anymore. Security has finally gained a foothold, they're finally able to shift lift the security practices into the realm of developers, simplifying it in a way, and automating it in a way that, it's no longer a trivial task to integrate security. And there's a lot of companies supporting that, even from a Kubernetes perspective, integrating with Kubernetes or integrating with networking products on top of Kubernetes. And I think we finally have reached a moment in time where security is no longer something that we really need to think about. Again, because CNCF is kind of helping us select the right projects, helping us in the right direction, so that making choices in the security realm becomes easier, and becomes a no-brainer for teams, special security teams, as well as the application development teams, to integrate security. >> Well, Joep, I'm glad to hear we've solved security, we can all go home now. That's awesome. But no, in all seriousness, such an important piece, lots of companies spending time on there, and it does feel that we are starting to get the process and organization around, so that we can attack these challenges a little bit more head-on. How 'about service mesh, it's one of those things that's been a little bit contentious the last couple of years, of course ahead of the show, Google is not donating Istio to the foundation, instead, the trademark's open. I'm going to have an interview with Liz Rice to dig into that piece, in the chess moves, Microsoft is now putting out a service mesh, so as Corey Quinn says, the plural of service mesh must be service meeshes, so, it feels like Mr. Meeseeks, for any Rick and Morty fans, we just keep pressing the button and more of them appear, which may cause us more trouble, but, what's your take, do you have a service mesh coming out, Kelsey Hightower had a fun little thing on Twitter about it, what's the state of the state? >> Yeah, so I won't be publishing a service mesh, maybe I'll try and rickroll someone, but we'll see what happens. But service meshes are, they're still a hot topic, it's still one of the spaces where most discussion is kind of geared towards. There is yet to form a single standard, there is yet a single block of companies creating a front to solve that service mesh issue, and I think that's because in the end, service meshes are, from a complexity perspective, they're not mature enough to be able to commoditize into a standard. I think we still need a little while, and maybe ask me this question next year again, and we'll see what happens. But we'll still need a little while to kind of let this market shift and let this market innovate, because I don't think we've reached the end state with service meshes. Also kind of gauging from customer interest and actual production implementations, I don't think this has trickled down from the largest companies that have the most requirements into the smaller companies, the smaller markets, which is something that we do usually see, now Kubernetes is definitely doing that. So in terms of service meshes, I don't think the innovation has reached that endpoint yet, and I think we'll still need a little while, which will mean for the upcoming period, that we'll kind of see this head to head from different companies, trying to gain a foothold, trying to lead a market, introduce their own products. And I think that's okay, and I think the CNCF will continue to kind of curate that experience, up to a point where maybe somewhere in the future we will have a noncompeting standard to finally have something that's commoditized and easy to implement. >> Yeah, it's an interesting piece, one of the things I've always enjoyed when I go to the show is just wander, and the things you bump into are like "Oh my gosh, wow, look at all of these cool little projects." I don't think we are going to stop that Cambrian explosion of innovation and ideas. When you go walk around there's usually over 200 vendors there, and a lot of them are opensource projects. I would say many of them, when you have a discussion with them, I'm not sure that there's necessarily a business behind that project, and that's where you also see maturity in spaces. A year or so ago, in the observability space, open tracing helped pull together a couple of pieces. Storage is starting to mature. Doesn't mean we're going to get down to one standard, there's still a couple of storage engines out there, I have some really good discussions this week to go into that, but it goes from, "Boy, storage is a mess," to "Oh, okay, we have a couple of uses," and just like storage in the data center, there's not a box or a protocol to do anything, it's what's your use case, what performance, what clouds, what environments are you living on, and therefore you can do that. So it's good to see lots of new things added, but then they mature out and they consolidate, and as you said, the CNCF is help giving those roadmaps, those maps, the landscapes, which boy, if you go online, they have some really good tools. Go to CNCF, the website, and you can look through, Cheryl Hung put one, I'm trying to remember which, it's basically a bullseye of the ones that, here's the one that's fully baked, and here's the ones that are making its way through, and the customer feedback, and they're going to do more of those to help give guidance, because no one solution is going to fit everybody's needs, and you have these spectrums of offerings. Wild card for you, are there any interesting projects out there, new things that you're hearing about, what areas should people be poking around that might not be the top level big things? >> So, I guess for me, that's really personal because I'm still kind of an infrastructure geek in that sense. So one of the things that really surprised me was a more traditional vendor, Zerto in this case, with a fantastic solution, finally, they're doing data protection for Kubernetes. And my recommendation would be to look at companies like Zerto in the data protection space, finally making that move into containers, because even though we've completed the discussion, stateful versus stateless, there's still a lot to be said for thinking about data protection, if you're going to go all-in into containers and into Kubernetes, so that was one that really provoked my thoughts, I really was interested in seeing, "Okay, what's Zerto doing in this list of CNCF members?" And for that matter, I think other vendors like VMware, like Red Hat, like other companies that are moving into this space, with a regained trust in their solutions, is something that I think is really interesting, and absolutely worth exploring during the event, to see what those more traditional companies, to use the term, are doing to innovate with their solutions, and kind of helping the CNCF and the cloud data world, become more enterprise-ready, and that's kind of the point I'm trying to make, where for the longest time, we've had this cloud-native versus traditional, but I always thought of it like cloud-native versus enterprise-ready, or proven technology. This is kind of for the developers doing a new thing, this is for the IT operations teams, and we're kind of seeing those two groups, at least from a technology perspective, being fused into one new blood group, making their way forward and innovating with those technologies. So, I think it's interesting to look at the existing vendors and the CNCF members to see where they're innovating. >> Well, Joep, you connected a dotted line between the cloud-native insights program that I've been doing, you were actually my first guest on that. We've got a couple of months worth of episodes out there, and it is closing that gap between what the developers are doing and what the enterprise was, so absolutely, there's architectural pieces, Joep, like you, I'm an infrastructure geek, so I come from those pieces, and there was that gap between, I'm going to use VMs, and now I'm using containers, and I'm looking at things like serverless too, how do we built applications, and is it that bottom-up versus top-down, and what a company's needs, they need to be able to react fast, they need to be able to change along the way, they need to be able to take advantage of the innovation that ecosystems like this have, so, I love the emphasis CNCF has, making sure that the end users are going to have a strong voice, because as you said, the big companies have come in, not just VMware and Red Hat, but, IBM and Dell are behind those two companies, and HPE, Cisco, many others out there that the behemoths out there, not to mention of course the big hyperscale clouds that helped start this, we wouldn't have a lot of this without Google kicking off with Kubernetes, AWS front and center, and an active participant here, and if you talk to the customers, they're all leveraging it, and of course Microsoft, so it is a robust, big ecosystem, Joep, thank you so much for helping us dig into it, definitely hope we can have events back in the Netherlands in the near future, and great to see you as always. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, stay tuned, we have, as I said, full spectrum of interviews from theCUBE, they'll be broadcasting during the three days, and of course go to theCUBE.net to catch all of what we've done this year at the show, as well as all the back history. Feel free to reach out to me, I'm @Stu on Twitter, and thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE. (calm music)