>> Announcer: theCUBE presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon, Cloudnativecon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend and alongside Enrico senior IT analyst for (indistinct). Welcome back to the show Enrico. >> Thank you again for having me here. >> First impressions of Kubecon. >> Well, great show. As I mentioned before, I think that we are really in this very positive mood of talking with each other and people wanting to see the projects, people that build the projects and it's amazing. A lot of interesting conversation in the show floor and in the various sessions, very positive mood. >> So this is going to be a fun one, we have some amazing builders on the show this week and none other than William Morgan, CEO of Buoyant. What's your role in the Linkerd project? >> So I was one of the original creators of Linkerd, but at this point I'm just the beautiful face of the project. (all laughing) >> Speaking of beautiful face of the project Linkerd just graduated from as a CNCF project. >> Yeah, that's right so last year we became the first service mesh to graduate in the CNCF, very proud of that and that's thanks largely to the incredible community around Linkerd that is just excited about the project and wants to talk about it and wants to be involved. >> So let's talk about the significance of that. Linkerd not the only service mesh project out there. Talk to me about the level effort to get it to the point that it's graduated. You don't see too many projects graduating CNCF in general so let's talk about kind of the work needed to get Linkerd to this point. >> Yeah so the bar is high and it's mostly a measure, not necessarily of like the project being technically good or bad or anything but it's really a measure of maturity of the community around it so is it being adopted by organizations that are really relying on it in a critical way? Is it being adopted across industries? Is it having kind of a significant impact on the Cloudnative community? And so for us there was the work involved in that was really not any different from the work involved in kind of maintaining Linkerd and growing the community in the first place, which is you try and make it really useful. You try and make it really easy to get started with, you try and be supportive and to have a friendly and welcoming community. And if you do those things and you kind of naturally get yourself to the point where it's a really strong community full of people who are excited about it. >> So from the point of view of users adopting this technology, so we are talking about everybody or do you see really large organization, large Kubernetes clusters infrastructure adopting it? >> Yeah, so the answer to that is changed a little bit over time but at this point we see Linkerd adoption across industries, across verticals, and we see it from very small companies to very large ones so one of the talks I'm really excited about at this conference is from the folks at Xbox cloud gaming who are going to talk about how they deployed Linkerd across 22,000 pods around the world to serve basically on demand video games. Never a use case I would ever have imagined for Linkerd and at the previous Kubecon virtually Kubecon EU, we had a whole keynote about how Linkerd was used to combat COVID 19. So all sorts of uses and it really doesn't, whether it's a small cluster or large cluster it's equally applicable. >> Wow so as we talk about Linkerd service mesh we obviously are going to talk about security, application control, etcetera. But in this climate software supply chain is critical and you think about open source software supply chain, talk to us about the recent security audit of Linkerd. >> Yeah so one of the things that we do as part of a CNCF project and also as part of, I think our relationship with our community is we have regular security audits where we engage security professionals who are very thorough and dig into all the details. Of course the source code is all out there, so anyone can read through the code but they'll build threat model analysis and things like that. And then we take their report and we publish it. We say, "Hey look, here's the situation." So we have earlier reports online and this newest one was done by a company called Trail of Bits and they built a whole threat model and looked through all the different ways that Linkerd could go wrong and they always find issues of course, it would be very scary, I think, to get a report that was like, no, we didn't find- >> Yeah everything's clean. >> Yeah everything's fine, should be okay, I don't know. But they did not find anything critical. They found some issues that we rapidly addressed and then everything gets written up in the report and then we publish it, as part of an open source artifact. >> How do you, let's say, do they give you and adds up something? So if something happens so that you can act on the code before somebody else discovers the- >> Yeah, they'll give you a preview of what they found and then often it's not like you're going before the judge and the judge makes a judgment and then like off to jail, it's a dialogue because they don't necessarily understand the project. Well, they definitely don't understand it as well as you do. So you are helping them understand which parts are interesting to look at from the security perspective, which parts are not that interesting. They do their own investigation of course but it's a dialogue the entire time. So you do have an opportunity to say, "Oh you told me that was a a minor issue. "I actually think that's larger or vice versa." You think that's a big problem actually, we thought about that and it's not a big problem because of whatever. So it's a collaborative process. >> So Linkerd been around, like when I first learned about service mesh Linkerd was the project that I learned about. It's been there for a long time, just mentioned 22,000 clusters. That's just mind boggling- >> Pods, 22,000 pods. >> That's pods. >> Clusters would be great. >> Yeah, clusters would be great too but it filled 22,000 pods. >> It's a big deployment. >> That's a big deployment of Linkerd, but all the way down to the smallest set of pods as well. What are some of the recent project updates some of the learnings you bought back from the community and updated the project as a result? >> Yeah so a big one for us, on the topic of security, Linkerd, a big driver of Linkerd adoption is security and less on the supply chain side and more on the traffic, like live traffic security. So things like mutual TLS, so you can encrypt the communication between pods and make sure it's authenticated. One of the recent feature additions is authorization policy so you can lock down connections between services and you can say Service A is only allowed to talk to Service B and I want to do that not based on network identity, not based on like IP addresses, 'cause those are spoofable and we've kind of like as an industry moved, we've gotten a little more advanced from that but actually based on the workload identity as captured by the mutual TLS certificate exchange. So we give you the ability now to restrict the types of communication that are allowed to happen on your cluster. >> So, okay this is what happened. What about the future? Can you give us into suggestion on what is going to happen in the medium and long term? >> I think we're done you know we graduated, so we're just going to stop. (all laughing) What else is there to do? There's no grad school. No, so for us, there's a clear roadmap ahead continuing down the security realm, for sure. We've given you kind of the very first building block which at the service level, but coming up in the 2.12 release we'll have route based policy as well, as you can say this service is only allowed to call these three routes on this end point. And we'll be working later to do things like mesh expansions so we can run the data plane outside of Kubernetes, so the control plane will stay in Kubernetes but the data plane will, you'll be able to run that on Vms and things like that. And then of course in the, we're also starting to look at things like, I like to make a fun of (indistinct) a lot but we are actually starting to look at (indistinct) in the ways that that might actually be useful for Linkerd users. >> So we talk a lot about the flexibility of a project like Linkerd you can do amazing things with it from a security perspective but we're talking still to a DevOps type cloud of developers who are spread thin across their skillset. How do you help balance the need for the flexibility which usually comes with more nerd knobs and servicing a crowd that wants even higher levels of abstraction and simplicity. >> Yeah, that's a great question and this is what makes Linkerd so unique in the service mesh spaces. We have a laser focus on simplicity and especially on operational simplicity so our audience, we can make it easy to install Linkerd but what we really care about is when you're running it and you're on call for it and it's sitting in this critical, vulnerable part of your infrastructure, do you feel confident in that? Do you feel like you understand it? Do you feel like you can observe it? Do you feel like you can predict what it's going to do? And so every aspect of Linkerd is designed to be as operationally simple as possible. So when we deliver features, that's always our primary consideration, is we have to reject the urge, we have an urge as engineers to like want to build everything, it's an ultimate platform to solve all problems and we have to really be disciplined and say we're not going to do that, we're going to look at solving the minimum possible problem with a minimum set are features because we need to keep things simple and then we need to look at the human aspect to that. And I think that's been a part of Linkerd's success. And then on the Buoyant side, of course, I don't just work on Linkerd, I also work on Buoyant which helps organizations adopt Linkerd and increasingly large organizations that are not service mesh experts don't want to be service mesh experts, they want to spend their time and energy developing their business, right? And building the business logic that powers their company. So for them we have actually recently introduced, fully managed Linkerd where we can take on, even though Linkerd has to run on your cluster, the sidecar proxies has to be alongside your application. We can actually take on the operational burden of upgrades and trust income rotation, and installation. And you could effectively treat it as a utility, and have a hosted-like experience even though the actual bits, at least most of them not all of them, most of 'em have to live on your cluster. >> I love the focus of most CNCF projects, it's peanut butter or jelly, not peanut butter trying to be become jelly. What's the peanut butter to Linkerd's jelly? Like where does Linkerd stop? And some of the things that customers should really consider when looking at service mesh? >> Yeah, now that's a great way of looking at it and I actually think that philosophy comes from Kubernetes. I think Kubernetes itself, one of the reasons it was so successful is because it had some clearly delineated boundaries. It said, "This is what we're going to do. "And this is what we're not going to do. "So we're going to do layer three, four networking, "but we're going to stop there, "we're not going to do anything with layer seven." And that allowed the service mesh. So I guess if I were to go down the bread of the sandwich is Kubernetes, and then Linkerd is the peanut butter, I guess. And then the jelly, so I think the jelly is every other aspect of of building a platform. So if you are the audience for Linkerd most of the time is a platform owners. They're building a platform an internal platform for their developers to write code and so, as part of that, of course you've got Kubernetes, you've got Linkerd, but you've also got a CICD system. You've also got a code repository that's GitLab or or GitHub or whatever, you've got other kind of tools that are enforcing various other constraints. All of that is the jelly in the, this is analogy it's getting complicated now, and like the platform sandwich that you're serving. >> So talk to us about trans and service mesh from the, as we think of the macro. >> Yeah, so it's been an interesting space because, we were talking a little bit about this before the show but, there was so much buzz and then what we saw was basically it took two years for that buzz to become actual adoption and now a lot of the buzz is off on other exciting things and the people who remain in the Linkerd space are very focused on, "Oh, I actually have a real problem "that I need to solve "and I need to solve it now." So that's been great. So in terms of broader trends, I think one thing we've seen for sure is the service mesh space is kind of notorious for complexity, and a lot of what we've been doing on the Linkerd side has been trying to reverse that idea, because it doesn't actually have to be complex. There's interesting stuff you can do, especially when you get into the way we handle the sidecar model. It's actually really, it's a wonderful model operationally. It's really, it feels weird at first and then you're like, "Oh, actually this makes my operations a lot easier." So a lot of the trends that I see at least for Linkerd is doubling down on the sidecar model trying to make side cars as small and as thin as possible and try and make them kind of transparent to the rest of the application. >> Well, William Morgan, one of the coolest Twitter handles I've seen at WM on Twitter, that's actually a really cool Twitter handle. >> William: Thank you. >> CEO of Buoyant. Thank you for joining theCube again, Cube alum. From Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Towns, along with Enrico's (indistinct) and you're watching theCube, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to vincia Spain in Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns alongside en Rico senior. Etti senior it analyst for giong welcome back to the show en >>Rico. Thank you again for having me here. >>First impressions of QAN. >>Well, great show. As, as I mentioned before, I think that we are really in this very positive mode of talking with each other and people wanting to see, you know, the projects, people that build the projects at it's amazing. I mean, a lot of interesting conversation in the show floor and in the various sessions, very positive move. >>So this is gonna be a fun one. We have some amazing builders on the show this week, and none other than William Morgan, CEO of buoyant. What's your role in the link D project? >>So I was one of the original creators of link D but at this point I'm just the, the beautiful face of the project. >>Speaking of beautiful face of the project, linker D just graduated from as a CNCF project. >>Yeah, that's right. So last year we, we became the first service mesh to graduate in the CNCF. Very proud of that. And that's thanks, you know, largely to the incredible community around Linky that is just excited about the project and, you know, wants to talk about it and wants to be involved. >>So let's talk about the significance of that link D not the only service mesh project out there. Talk to me about the level effort to get it to the point that it's graduated. That's you don't see too many projects graduating CNCF in general. So let's talk about kind of the work needed to get Nier D to this point. >>Yeah. So, you know, the, the, the bar is high and it's mostly a measure, not necessarily of like the, the project being technically good or bad or anything, but it's really a measure of maturity of the community around it. So is it being adopted by organizations that are really relying on it in a critical way? Is it, you know, being adopted across industries, you know, is it having kind of a significant impact on the cloud native community? And so for us, you know, there was the, the work involved in that was really not any different from the work involved in, in kind of maintaining ity and growing the community in the first place, which is you try and make it really useful. You try and make it really easy to get started with you, try and be supportive and to, you know, have a, a friendly and welcoming community. And if you do those things and, you know, you kind of naturally get yourself to the point where it's a, it's a really strong community full of people who are excited about it. >>So from the of view of, you know, users adopting the, this technology, so we are talking about everybody, or do you see really, you know, large organization, large Kubernetes yeah. Clusters infrastructure adopting it. >>Yeah. So that's the answer to that is changed a little bit over time. But at this point we see Linky adoption across industries, across verticals, and we see it from very small companies to very large ones. So, you know, one of the talks I'm really excited about at this conference is from the folks at Xbox cloud gaming, who talked about, who are gonna talk about how they deployed Linky across, you know, 22,000 pods around the world to serve, you know, basically on demand video games, never a use case I would ever have imagined for Linky. And at the previous Kuan, you know, virtually Kuan EU, we had a whole keynote about how Linky was used to combat COVID 19. So all sorts of uses. And it really doesn't, you know, whether, whether it's a small cluster or large cluster it's equally applicable. >>Wow. So as we talk about link D service match, we obviously are gonna talk about security application control, etcetera. But in this climate Software supply chain is critical, right. And as we think about open source software supply chain, talk to us about the recent security audit of link dealer. >>Yeah. So one of the things that we do as part of a CNCF project, and also as part of, I, I think our relationship with our community is we have regular security audits, you know, where we, we engage security professionals who are very thorough and, you know, dig into all the details. Of course the source code is all out there, you know, so anyone can read through the code, but they'll build threat model analyses and things like that. And then we take their, their report and we publish it. We say, Hey, look, here's, you know, here's the situation. So we have earlier reports online, and this newest one was done by a company called trail of bits. And they built a whole threat model and looked through all the different ways that Linky could go wrong. And they always find issues. Of course, you know, it's, it would be very scary, I think, to get a report that was like, no, we didn't find yeah. Earth clean, you know? Yeah. Everything's fine. You know, should be okay. I don't know. Right. But they, you know, they did not find anything critical. They found some issues that we rapidly addressed and then, you know, everything gets written up in the report and, and then we publish it, you know, as part of an open source artifact >>Are, you let's say, you know, do they give you and add something? So if something happens so that you can act on the code before, you know, somebody else discovers the >>Yeah, yeah. They'll give you a preview of what they found. And then often, you know, it's not like you're going before the judge and the judge makes a judgment and then like off the jail, right. It's, it's a dialogue because they don't necessarily understand the project. Well, they definitely don't understand it as well as you do. So you are helping them, you know, understand which parts and, and your, you know, are, are interesting to look at from the security perspective, which parts are not that interesting. They do their own investigation of course, but it's a dialogue the entire time. So you do have an opportunity to say, oh, you told me that was a, a, a minor issue. I actually think that's larger or, or vice versa. You know, you, you think that's a big problem. Actually, we thought about that, and it's not a big problem because of whatever. So it's a collaborative process. >>So link D been around, like, when I first learned about service me link D was the project that I learned about. Yeah. It's been there for a long time, but just mentioned 22,000 clusters. That's just mind boggling pod, 22,000 pods, the pods. Okay. >>Clusters would be >>Great. Yeah. Yeah. Clusters would be great too, but filled 22 thousands pods, big deployment. That's the big deployment of link D but all the way down to the small, smallest set of pods as well. What are some of the recent project updates from of the learnings you bought back from the community and updated the, the project as a result? >>Yeah. So a big one for us, you know, on the topic of security link, a big driver of link adoption is security and, and less on the supply chain side and more on the traffic, like live traffic security. So things like mutual TLS. So you can encrypt the communication between pods and make sure it's authenticated. One of the recent feature additions is authorization policy. So you can lock down connections between services and you can say service a is only allowed to talk to service B. And I wanna do that. Not based on network identity, you know, and not based on like IP addresses, cuz those are spoof. And you know, we've kind of like as an industry moved, moved, we've gotten a little more advanced from that, but actually based on the workload identity, you know, as captured by the mutual TLS certificate exchange. So we give you the ability now to, to, to restrict the types of communication that are allowed to happen on your cluster. >>So, okay. This is what happened. What about the future? Can you give us, you know, into suggestion of what is going to happen in the medium and long term? >>I think we're done, you know, we graduated, so we're just gonna >>Stop there's >>What else is there to do? There's no grad school, you know? No, no. So for us, there's a clear roadmap ahead, continuing down the, the security realm, for sure. We've given you kind of the very first building block, which at the service level, but coming up in, in the two point 12 release, we'll have route based policy as well, as you can say, this service is only allowed to call these three, you know, routes on this end point and we'll be working later to do things like mesh expansion so we can run the data plane outside of Kubernetes. You know, so the control plane will stay in in Kubernetes, but the data plane will, you'll be able to run that on VMs and, and, and things like that. And then of course in the, you know, we're also starting to look at things like I like to make a fun of WAM a lot, but we are actually starting to look at WAM in, in the ways that that might actually be useful for Linky users. >>So we talk a lot about the flexibility of a project, like link D you can do amazing things with it from a security perspective, but we're talking still to a DevOps type cloud of, of, of developers who are spread thin across their skillset. How do you help balance the need for the flexibility, which usually becomes more nerd knobs and servicing a crowd that wants even higher levels of abstraction and simplicity. >>Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And this is, this is what makes Linky so unique in the service mesh spaces. We have a laser focus on simplicity and especially on operational simplicity. So our audience, you know, we can make it easy to install Linky, but what we really care about is when you're running it and you're on call for it and it's sitting in this critical, vulnerable part of your infrastructure, do you feel confident in that? Do you feel like you understand it? Do you feel like you can observe it? Do you feel like you can predict what it's gonna do? And so every aspect of Linky is designed to be as operationally simple as possible. So when we deliver features, you know, that's always our, our primary consideration is, you know, we have to reject the urge. You know, we have an urge as, as engineers to like want to build everything, you know, it's an ultimate platform to solve all problems and we have to really be disciplined and say, we're not gonna do that. >>We're gonna look at solving the minimum possible problem with a minimum set of features because we need to keep things simple. And, and then we need to look at the human aspect to that. And I think that's been a part of, of Link's success. And then on the buoyant side, of course, you know, I don't just work on link day. I also work on, on buoyant, which helps organizations adopt Linky and, and increasingly large organizations that are not service mesh experts don't wanna be service mesh experts that, you know, they wanna spend their time and energy developing their business, right. And, and building the business logic that powers their company. So for them, we have actually re recently introduced, fully managed. Linky where we can take on, even though Linky has to run on your cluster, right? The, the, the, the sidecar proxies has to be alongside your application. We can actually take on the operational burden of, of upgrades and trust, anchor rotation, and installation. And you can effectively treat it as a utility, right. And, and, and have a, a hosted, like, experience, even though the, the actual bits, at least most of them, not all of them, most of 'em have to live on your cluster. >>I love the focus of most CNCF projects, you know, it's, it's peanut butter or jelly, not peanut butter. Yeah. Trying to be become jelly. Right. What's the, what's the, what's the peanut butter to link D's jelly. Like where does link D stop and some of the things that customers should really consider yeah. When looking at service mesh. >>Yeah. No, that's a great way of looking at it. And I, I actually think that that philosophy comes from Kubernetes. I think Kubernetes itself, one of the reasons it was so successful is because it had some clearly delineated, it said, this is what we're gonna do. Right. And this is what we're not gonna do. So we're gonna do layer three, four networking. Right. But we're gonna stop there. We're not gonna do anything with layer seven. And that allowed the service mesh. So I guess if I were to go down the, the bread, the bread of the sandwich has Kubernetes, and then Linky is the, is the peanut butter, I guess, and then the jelly, you know, so I think the jelly is every other aspect of, of building a platform. Right. So if you are the, the audience for Linky, most of the time, it's a platform owners, right. They're building a platform, an internal platform for their developers to write code. And so, as part of that, of course, you've got Kubernetes, you've got Linky, but you've also got a C I CD system. You've also got a, you know, a code repository, if it's GitLab or, or GitHub or wherever you've got, you know, other kind of tools that are enforcing various other constraints. All of that is the jelly, you know, in the, this is, analogy's getting complicated now. And like the, the platform sandwich that, you know, that you're serving. >>So talk to us about trans and service mesh from the, from the, as we think of the macro. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's been an interesting space because we were talking a little bit about, you know, about this before the show, but the, there was so much buzz, you know, and then what we, what we saw was basically it took two years for that buzz to become actual adoption, you know, and now a lot of the buzz is off on other exciting things. And the people who remain in the Linky space are, are very focused on, oh, I actually have a, a real problem that I need to solve and I need to solve it now. So that's been great. So in terms of broader trends, you know, I think one thing we've seen for sure is the service mesh space is kind of notorious for complexity, you know, and a lot of what we've been doing on the Linky side has been trying to, to reverse that, that, that idea, you know, because it doesn't actually have to be complex. There's interesting stuff you can do, especially when you get into the way we handle the sidecar model. It's actually really, it's a wonderful model operationally. It's really, it feels weird at first. And then you're like, oh, actually this makes my operations a lot easier. So a lot of the trends that I see at least for Linky is doubling down on the sidecar model, trying to make side cards as small and as thin as possible and try and make them, you know, kind of transparent to the rest of the application. So >>Well, William Morgan, one of the coolest Twitter handles I've seen at WM on Twitter, that's actually a really cool Twitter handle. Thank you, CEO of buoyant. Thank you for joining the cube again. Cube alum from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with en Rico, and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube. Covering VM World 2017. Brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. >> I'm Stu Miniman, here with my cohost Keith Townsend, and you're watching wall to wall coverage of VM World 2017 on the Cube here in Las Vegas. You know, third day of programming. We've done so many interviews. A lot of people went to parties last night, you know up early for lots of executive meetings, but you know we go strong through the whole show because we've got great guests, so happy to welcome to the program first time guest, Peter FitzGibbon, Vice President and General Manager with Rackspace, and welcome back to the program Ajay Patel with VM Ware. >> Great to be here. >> Alright, so Peter, you know, Rackspace, interesting transformation over the last few years. You know we've had the Cube at OpenStack for a bunch of years. I've heard almost no discussion of OpenStack this week at the show. >> Man: I'm not complaining. >> I talked to Rackers though, at Reinvent. You have, you know, kind of reinvented the business there, but the VM partnership is one that's been going on for many years. Some people I talk to don't understand. I mean this is a sizable business that you've been doing. I said, you know, let's measure the Rackspace managed VM Ware business against the entire revenue stream of OpenStack outside of what RackSpace does, you know, and it's an interesting comparison. >> So RackSpace continues through the multi cloud company, offering our customers the choice and flexibility they want, so our OpenStack practice continues to grow strong and we continue to invest there, as we do in our VM Ware practice, which we have a great partnership with. Ajay and his team, over the last 10 plus years. >> Also for us, the partnership's only growing stronger. If you walk around WM World with all the banners, you've walked into the airports, the investment RackSpace is making around VM Ware technology, I couldn't be much more happier, so thank you for that. >> So Peter, to Stu's point, RackSpace has been part of the VM Ware community for a long time. I've run into a couple of Rackers on the show floor, talked through kind of what they're doing with their feet on the ground, great work. Can you talk through the relationship with the customer to this point? I mean RackSpace is known for fanatical support. How has that conversation changed over the past three years or so as we've gone through this changing VM Ware strategy to where we're at today? >> Yeah, we're continuing to try to support the customer on whichever technology they really want to land on, so it starts with the planning and analysis phase that we sit with customers and analyze their work loads and try to figure out what's the best fit for them outside of determining is it OpenStack, is it VM Ware? Is it our fanatical support on top of AWS? From a VM Ware perspective, we're really helping people to determine how to move out of the data center, or at least not extend the data centers as they have them right now. We recently launched our RackSpace private cloud powered by VM Ware Cloud foundations. It went to general availability last week, so that's a global effort that we're discussing with our clients and it's proving a very attractive options for those looking for an alternative to their own private cloud and moving to hosting private cloud model. >> Peter, that operating experience is one of the things that customers have been challenged with, and RackSpace, you know, known for, you know, they know how to do this. Talk to us about some of this journey as to how your customers are seeing things. You know RackSpace has had a few different private cloud options you talk about. You've given your customers choice, but what's different now in 2017 and what's the mindset of your customers? >> Yeah, we continue to offer 24 by seven, 365 fanatical support. It's what we really see as our true differentiator in the market, or we have 150 certified VM Ware Rackers on the team that really go beyond, above and beyond every single day for these customers, and looking at not just how to migrate into our private cloud, but how to optimize them when we're there, when they've landed on a VM Ware private hosted cloud solution, how do we really optimize it and really get the full value of the technology? And these are expensive and difficult technologies to use, so you want to make sure people are really getting the true value out of NSX and VSAN, and now with VCF, which we're really excited about. >> Yeah, for us, it's, you know, as you were speaking, I mean the biggest challenge and the constraints exclude resources. Having 150 specialists out there with fanatical support with the great VM Ware technology. And in some ways the VM Ware cloud announcement is kind of making the awareness that you have a cloud stack, that you can now get through, you know RackSpace private cloud, so for us it's really all boats are rising as a result, and not having the skilled capability to then accelerate deployment and delivery and operations is pretty exciting. >> So Ajay, can you talk a little bit about working with RackSpace specifically because RackSpace has a tradition of having a very pronounced way of supporting customers, whether you're a Fortune 500 or you're a small ma and pa shop, RackSpace is going to come with full engineering might and help build the most reliable solution, and that comes with kind of, I imagine, a predisposed position on something like VCF, VM Ware Cloud Foundation. What has it been like to engineer? >> I'll speak the best thing from one of the joint customers that we had the opportunity to be on a panel with, Show Tell, right, and it was interesting to say how Show Tell said RackSpace is part of their operating team, so they enrolled up front in terms of having a partner who can help them with the choice, they made the selection based on the excellent support, but more importantly, they're just an extension of the operating team, and being able to have a single team manage both the on prem and the cloud without having to build a separate kind of cloud team, that was a critical piece of this decision, so kind of this common operating model, which they seamlessly augment with skillset, you know, that was really what resonated for Show Tell and was the reason they chose. >> The operating model is something I was just going to go to in terms of really helping people how they're going to live in this multi cloud world across multiple different technology stacks, and that's what our fanatical support is intended to be, to really be an extension of their, of a homegrown IT team so we can really get the full benefit of these complicated technologies. >> Alright, Peter, you talk multi cloud, and one of the things we talk to customers is a lot of times they say they have a cloud strategy, but how they got there wasn't necessarily as plan full as they might have liked. I had somebody writing for Wikibon a couple years ago said we have composite cloud because you kind of look at it and you always said, you know, do I have Amazon? Yeah, everybody does, you know. Oh I've got some app that somebody needed on GCP. RackSpace is a manage service provider for a lot of different pieces. How do you help customers get their arms around it, you know, and you know, maybe talk, the VM Ware on Amazon, the VMC stuff, how do you look at that in the future, how does that tie into kind of the skillset that your team has? >> So we often see customers coming in with that composite cloud situation where they're like we think we're multi cloud, but we're not truly because they don't have a defined strategy about why they put certain workloads in certain places, it just grew up organically, often through lines of business. VMC is a really exciting offer for us and we're going to be launching it in early 2018. It really gives more choice for customers in terms of where they're going to run their workloads, be it running them in different availability zones that RackSpace doesn't cover or potentially used as a DR solution. >> So let's dive into that composite cloud space, and I really love that comment. What, cloud, multi cloud is one of those things, you don't know you don't have a multi cloud until you don't know you don't have a multi cloud. What are some of the surefire indicators that customers are in where a composite cloud experience or environment versus a true multi cloud? Like what is that conversation like? >> Man: What's a good best practice, yeah? >> Well I think there isn't a lot of good best practices from our customers' point of view. I think they often come in and we lay out their, look at their architectures, look at their different applications, and they're often just, central IT doesn't know where most of it is running half the time, so it's really like okay, let's look at each part of this and decide for you what's the best fit, where should it go? Should we be putting something on Azure or Azure Stack? Should it be better suited to OpenStack? Or is it, they're very familiar with VM Ware and they want to continue to leverage VM Ware either on a host model or internally in their own data center. >> What we're learning is you just don't have visibility, so the biggest interest and the demand when we launched our cross cloud or cloud services, the notion of having visibility of what's running where. And the second question is how much is it costing me, and what can I move and what are the data security leakages that I want to put in place because these things weren't controlled. So those are kind of just knowing, right, knowing where your data is, knowing where your workloads are and how much they're costing you. That's the first baseline they're looking for help on. Once they've got that, then they're like okay, how do I still provide some level of self service and control to the end user while putting some structure by which I can go to a multi cloud strategy? So that's the journey we're just about to see with IT coming into play. >> Peter, I have to mention human interest viewpoint on the ecosystem. RackSpace, I think I understand better now than a few years ago what services you did. VM Ware just launched a bunch of SAS offerings. There were some launched last year. I can't count how many companies are helping people with cloud cost management, licensing, you know, you name it, 12 different aspects to take bites out of this giant elephant of multi cloud and do that. What are the biggest pain points you're hearing from customers? How do you help advise some of them and bring some of the pieces together? >> And it's not even what we see from a customer standpoint. You think of RackSpace, we have to integrate all of these clouds into our own internal system, so we get to experience it firsthand as the customer how we create unified billing systems, how we have unified monitoring, how we integrate all their own legacy systems to deal with these clouds, so we effectively learn from integrating into our own systems, then can advise our customers on the pain points we've seen and bring them on that journey to help them through their true multi cloud approach. >> So if we blow it out and a customer comes to you and they want a multi cloud strategy, and you know, you kind of show them the ugly, you show them the truth for where they're at, what's the next step, like from a practical tactical perspective? What's like step one to helping with SAS applications and for viability for each one of the RackSpace offerings? >> Yeah, so we have a framework which we call PADMO. It's plan, analyze, design, migrate, optimize. It took me a second to get the last part out, and trying to, that planning stage is really where we sit with the customer aside, okay, what does your environment look like and why is it that way? Were things made in a conscious decision or did it just happen organically? So we try to figure out what did they do intentionally and what, what just grew up organically? And move from there into designing or analyzing what's best fit for the different cloud strategies, then start designing it, migrating it, and then effectively optimizing it when they land on RackSpace and show the value of our 24 seven, 365 fanatical support. >> For us, it's about, for us the technology part, and we want to enable the core VM Foundation, but we also believe that network connectivity's the next big thing, so things like NSXT is something we're already having conversation with, like how are we going to stitch these clouds together, how do we make it more software defined so as we move towards this kind of policy driven, you know management abstraction, how do we then open up the different clouds and service that capability? So that's really the next journey for both of us from VCM, or VM Ware Cloud Foundation to the broader multi cloud strategy. >> And Ajay, your, you know, cloud provider partners, what about services? Is there any joint engagement or things that VM Ware helps write that are? >> So one of the big service for all, we're kind of coming together is around DR. Consistently the easy step to get to a hybrid or a leverage cloud is disaster recovery. What if we made that a native feature of the VM Ware stack? We could have our customer right click on a VM and protected by all these service provider clouds. That's an example of something we're kind of trying to generalize. Now on each of them, the complexity of operating it, the scale, the visibility, the service levels, those are unique to each partner, but we're trying to make sure that the platform gives you this basic capability to capture workloads. >> I feel like DR is essential to everyone's road map right now. Most of our customers, maybe all of our customers are requiring DR when they land on RackSpace, and we're really looking at that on our 2018 roadmap to see how we make DR, as a service, consistently part of the offering. >> So what works well and what doesn't work well? When you go through that initial setup complication, so DR's a great example of oh, this is low hanging fruit. We either don't have a DR that's working or we don't have DR at all, and there's kind of this, you know, when you whiteboard it, it works extremely well. What are some of the practical business challenges that you see customers experience on that journey? >> There's definitely some easy options to move first for customers. DR is a common one that we see, DevTest as well in terms of okay, how can you test out our environments and do it in a low risk way? There's always going to be those more core applications, those mission critical applications that people will wait till the end until they migrate, so let's migrate them to RackSpace private cloud and see how it operates, maybe as a DR environment, or as a DEV environment test environment, and then as they build confidence and see what fanatical support we offer, then they start moving more mission critical workloads. >> I share the same. Tier one usually is high availability, high design, high touch, tier two often ignored, too expensive, too hard. We're trying to go after the tier two or tier three apps and just provide a convenient cloud economics for protecting those workloads. >> Peter, I'm curious, how often are customers trying one thing and then moving into another? You know I get calls all the time, you know, data gravity of course is a big issue, but you know if I'm building an application, sometimes it's like oh wait, you know maybe this isn't the best place to live. Lots of customers, you know, will build one place and run production in another place. You know we've seen that. How much is mobility in turn, is lock in still a challenge? You know, how much, what's real and what's not? >> I think lock in is still a challenge, but we're certainly looking into how we're helping our customers move from one cloud to another. We continue work in our different business units across RackSpace, be it VM Ware, AWS, Azure Open Stack, and see how we can offer flexibility for customers. When they realize they've gone too far on one or another, we're not seeing specific use cases of everybody moving from one to another, it's more of a pick and choose, and so we're helping customers migrate from one to another as needed. >> So I'd be interested to know what, not percentage, what type of customer kind of has this hybrid IT or hybrid cloud approach in RackSpace where they build cloud native applications and then connect them to a VCF or VM Ware private cloud, and I think more specifically, I think the question that I would like to get at is that a real thing that, not necessarily real thing, is that impacting friction between the public cloud with cloud native applications and your ability to manage that and add that fanatical support in the developer looking to consume that, to integrate it to VM Ware? >> I'm not seeing that friction between the different technologies. I think, at RackSpace we try work across all of them to offer the choice to our clients and our customers as much as possible, make sure we really offer them the best choice and put the workloads in where they really are best suited to run. >> And opposition is you know container and micro sourced architecture are going to provide an excellent frameworks and tools. The maturity's still in the works, and our goal is to say can we make, you know, either VM or physical, be it the best place for deploying, and what are the tools and capability you need to provide? So for us, networking, security, those are kind of fundamental problems regardless if you're building a cloud native app or a traditional app, and how do we insert our value into the equation versus trying to own the whole solution, right? >> Peter FitzGibbon, thank you so much for getting the update on RackSpace. Ajay, always a pleasure. I'm trying to remember what the five time award is. We'll talk to John Furrier, make sure we have it ready for the next time we have you on. For Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman. This is VM World 2017 and you are watching the Cube. >> Man: Thank you guys. (upbeat instrumental music)

>> Commentator: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube. Covering VM World 2017. Brought to you by VMWare and its ecosystem partner. >> Welcome back to The Cube, we are live covering VMWorld 2017, day two of coverage. I'm Lisa Martin with my co host Stu Miniman, we've had a great morning, main stage, Michael Dell, Patt Gelsinger, Google, et cetera. We're excited to be joined by Doctor Sadir, Sadir is kind of awesome, the CTO of Dell EMC, Stewart, welcome to The Cube! >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> We're excited to have you here, so you were an EMC guy, we talked about that. When people think of Dell, they think of, well maybe used to, PCs, when they think of EMC they think of storage arrays, talk to us about, you know, one year post combination almost, how has your customers' perception changed, what have you heard in the last year? >> Sure yeah, it's been a pretty dramatic change, I would say in the sense of about a year ago when the deal was, or actually two years ago when the deal was first announced that it would be happening there was a lot of skepticism in the customer base obviously around A, what does this mean, how's it going to come together? I think a year into it people started to see some initial signs of better together. And now a year later we're seeing dramatic, dramatic positive energy and feedback from customer base on how, when they're actually seeing the products and solutions coming together in a combined solution I think that's, I mean we used to joke in the old days where our products, you know, EMC's got our portfolio, and our products would only come together on the PO, that was the common joke inside. And I think that perception is changing quite a lot now. >> So bring us into the storage group, because it was one that you know, if you look there were a lot of places where there were no overlaps. Storage, there was a long partnership between Dell and EMC then Dell had acquired a couple of companies, EMC, as you said already had a very large portfolio so bring us inside a little bit, especially kind of with your, you know, your CTO, your technologist. What are those lenses you look through and where are we into, you know, things coming together soon? >> Sure, I think it's a great question, I know and thank you because one of the things that people miss is that the portfolio strategy is a conscious strategy, right? It is really hard to cover the entire spectrum of work loads, use cases with a single widget, if you will. And a lot of our competitors will try to convince customers of that and they're finding that out themselves that it's really hard to cover that gamut so I think fundamentally, first and foremost the portfolio strategy is very important now that said, it is acknowledged and I'll admit that it is perhaps more in the portfolio right now than perhaps is needed. And so that in fact is one of our first, one of our big priorities for this year is to simplify the portfolio because it's confusing for our customers and so we're definitely working towards that. You'll see that roll out starting next year. And then over the next few years. >> So on that front, and sort of maybe waiting things out to simplify, from an innovation perspective Michael Dell also talked on main stage this morning about the importance of customer innervation but I'd love to understand how if you can take us kind of more through that, how is Dell EMC innovating internally so that you can be leaders in innovation-- >> Yeah, that's a great question, it's a great question because you know when you have a multi billion dollar business everybody assumes it's really really hard to innovate and it is, there's no question because you've got a big business to sustain. Now but the, I completely agree with Michael, what he said on stage and what he said to us privately which is in fact Dick Egan used to say the same thing. Founder of EMC he was, if there's one thing that you should be comfortable with, it's change and because this industry is changing like crazy, and I've been in the industry now for what, coming up on 20 years. Seen a lot, you know from FDDI to wherever you're at today. And I'm still constantly amazed by how much change is going on even now. So we do believe in change, we believe in actually innovating constantly, and Jeff Budrow, one of my manager he's a big believer in change as well, we're working on a lump number of innovations internally, organic innovations, big innovations. I can't tell you much about that today but we'll hopefully as we get closer to the next year we'll be able to talk more about it. That said, we're innovating on our existing products as well, we've refreshed our entire portfolio at Dell EMC World earlier this year. At VMWorld just now we announced our availability of our X2 platform which is the next generation of the XGMIL platform, so we're constantly innovating and as a result it's more of a rolling thunder as opposed to like a big bang. >> So I kind of look at it, there's kind of two ways that things are changing along storage. Number one there's kind of the underneath pieces, so you talked about going from FDDI, you know when we saw from disk to flash for EMC was you know, early on that that kind of reemergence of flash after a couple of decades of it being you know, not used for awhile. We've got things like NVME, NVME over fabric coming out so we're going to start there, maybe by one o'clock after there's kind of the operating model on how we change things because we've converged and cloud and all those but on some of those underlying pieces which I know keep the storage people kind of really engaged, you know where are we today with some of those transitions, what are some of the things that you're looking at over the next kind of 12, 24, 36 months? >> Terrific, I mean I see actually three vectors of change impacting the storage business and impacting us. One is the media like you said, there's NVME and we'll talk a little bit more about that. There's actually a whole bunch of stuff beyond NVME right, storage class memory, persistent memory coming out. Second set of things is consumption models, what we call consumption model round, whether it's a cloud consumption model, where if you think of cloud actually more as a consumption model as opposed to a destination. And software defined is a big thing, I think that's going to dramatically change the game, especially when you combine it with things like persistent memory. And then the third thing I think is the new wave of applications as well, that's generating a whole new class of data and adds a whole new set of requirements. For example, real time streaming analytics, right, that changes the, you can't deal with block and file and object in those worlds, you're dealing with new semantics. So those are some of the vectors that we're looking at in terms of. >> So let's start with kind of the low level, the media, you know some of those things right, what is data, what is memory, you know all those things blurring. Where you know, I hear, there seems to be so many people NVME, NVME over fabrics seems to be-- >> Hey look, so let me hit that off right in front. Right so it was 10 years ago that Dell and EMC independently before obviously we were one company actually co founded the contortion that invented NVME so we saw the meat of this technology, the limitations of SAS and SATA 10 years ago, we saw this coming. We helped drive the standards including NVME over fabric standard, and that's like, well before some of these companies that are claiming NVME today weren't actually even born. So NVME to me is a journey, right there's the there's the bus, changing from the SAS bus to the NVME bus. That's one part, then there's the media that stands behind them all, the NVME transport. Things like 3D cross point that are starting to come out, and then even beyond that you get to really persistent memory type of applications. So we see this as a journey, we're going to be rolling our NVME in all our products across the entire portfolio starting this year, later this year. For first, today scale IO already supports NVME devices in 14G, so we're going to, you're going to see that. >> Yeah, I guess my follow up, just to dig in a little deeper because when we got the CTO you've got to dig down. There were some, when flash came out, they were like oh yeah, whatever, I'm going to throw a couple of percentage in, well we saw flash greatly change architectures, it changed some of those application considerations-- >> Absolutely. >> Especially you know, Wikibon's David Floyer has been beating on let's really look at databases, let's do this. NVME, is it an extension and kind of evolution or will this be a similar revolution to what we saw with flash? >> I think it's a similar revolution. It's a similar but perhaps less of a quantum leap, I would say. And the reason is because you're going from like 10s of milliseconds or milliseconds of latency with spinning media to sub millisecond with flash. Now you're going from sub millisecond to sub sub millisecond but you know, it's getting diminishing. I think where you're going to see a lot of dramatic is as it's more on the latency as you get as the applications get closer and closer to the servers. Right so I think you're going to see a lot of pretty dramatic change in that space. >> Speaking of change and revolution, the three vectors that you talked about, media, consumption models, this new wave of applications, how, ST to you are you seeing the buyers' journey change as a result of these vectors? >> So that's actually part two of the question that Stu was just asking is while I agree that it's going to be a revolution, what I've also seen in 20 years is that these things don't happen instantly, yes flash was a big change. But even today, over 40, 40, 50% of our revenue still comes from hybrid systems. Mixed flash and, so these things take time, right? So customers are taking leaps I would say I'm seeing a spread of the early adopters and, we're probably in the big medium, in the big, the bell curve right now and then there's some laggards as well that are still buying you know, pure HDD only systems. >> Do you see a difference there, sorry, with respect to industries, maybe healthcare or financial services that are early adopters? >> Definitely, I think, there's industries and there's also size of customer, right, the bigger the customer the more, eager we see they are in doing this digital transformation so we're seeing a lot of them going all in on software defined, right, so we're definitely seeing that shift from buying purpose build arrays to software defined. Now it's not going to be instantaneous, again it's going to be over many years, similarly in the mid range and below we're seeing a shift from, modular systems to hyper converged systems as well. So we're seeing that as well, we're seeing a lot of shift from purely on prem to a hybrid solution of on prem plus cloud, so all of our products are now attaching to the cloud as well. So we're definitely seeing all of these transitions. >> When it comes to the cloud native piece, there are some that have said well, it's kind of could be a kind of completely different way of doing things, really focused on the developers and won't that just live in the public cloud, or you know will SAS applications you know, be where a lot of those live, so you know what do you say to the, you've improved media, you've improved consumption models but, maybe they're just, it's easier for me not to own some of these pieces, one of the company, small companies, I don't want to deal with infrastructure at all, let me, you know, let me yeah-- >> Yeah that's another great, great question. What we are seeing I would say is definitely some of that. Especially as you said in the smaller companies it's easy for them to get started, right, with minimal initial expenses they can get started in the public cloud so we definitely see that. But as you get larger, what we're seeing is the economics of running everything in the cloud on a sustained basis, just don't work out, it's much more cost effective to run things on ground, so I think for cost reasons when you're running over a sustained operations as well as for security reasons, we're still seeing a lot of hesitation and especially as you get to the higher end of the market, people are concerned especially with all the breaches and things like that, that they're concerned about where their assets are. So we actually at Dell Technologies I would say, and Dell EMC in particular, we're seeing a pretty significant opportunity popping up where customers want to run on prem data centers just like the cloud. And that's where things like software defined storage become really important because hey, the public clouds are running all the software defined, that's their, one of the secrets to their agility and speed. Why can't we have that prem and we actually absolutely see that in fact today's announcement of PKS is right on the money for that. >> So we're here at VMWorld, with respect to that, seeing more customers want to bring things on prem maybe kind of the true private cloud that Wikibon's been talking about. What are you guys doing now with VM or to align that, we've heard a number of things about, yesterday with AWS you mentioned Pivotal today, Google, what's going on today with Dell EMC and WM Ware to help customers really build a solid on prem solution? >> Yeah so I think Pivotal is certainly a key piece of that, Pivotal, VM Ware, so the whole VM Ware cloud foundation, cloud suite is a key piece of that. The integration with PCF is actually going to be very key because what customers need, especially the traditional customers, if you will, who don't quite have the expertise yet to build cloud native applications, they need a platform, not just an infrastructure. So I think that's why Pivotal is very important. And we're working very closely with, as Dell EMC we're working closely with both of those partners in delivering those solutions, VX Rail is a good example of that. VX Rail, VX Rack are good examples of the two technologies coming together. And so those are the kinds of things, I think that's where software defined storage, you'll see a lot more integration between Dell EMC's software defined portfolio, with the VM Ware and Pivotal ecosystems. >> So the storage group you've talked about you have a lot of options, we've been talking about software defined storage, how that you know is driving a lot of the change there, gives a lot of flexibility there. How does the storage team look at things like VMAX and Extreme IO compared to the software defined storage these days? >> Yeah so I think we, I presume everybody's seen the famous chart where there's the traditional infrastructure and then there's the cloud native, the new world. And that's a transition that's going to happen and we think it's going to be a really long transition, right. Mainframes are not dead, right, so they're still alive. And there's a reason, because people are running their absolute mission critical application on those infrastructures so we think there's definitely going to be a place for both, and it isn't all or nothing. And that's, I think, going back to innovation, your question about it, where is Dell EMC innovating, we're the only company that's actually embracing these changes, this transition to software defined, right? Where with products like ECS and Scale IO and so on and so forth, so we see that the transitions will happen slowly but there's going to be a lot of opportunity for highly reliable, you know, six, seven, nines reliable infrastructure based on purpose built infrastructure. >> Yeah, it definitely matches a lot of as you said the true private cloud report that we have on Wikibon. >> Well thank you so much, Sadir, for joining us on The Cube, we now bring you into The Cube alumni, the illustrious Cube alumni category. >> Glad to be here. >> Lisa: And thank you for sharing your insights as CTO on what you're doing with customers and innovation. >> Sadir: Thank you very much. >> And we want to thank you for watching, I'm Lisa Martin. From my cohost Stu Miniman we are live covering day two of VM World 2017 from Las Vegas, stick around, we will be right back. (upbeat music)