(upbeat music) >> Thanks so much, and we're back here live. Live, I love saying that, at cloud city, at Mobile World Congress. Barcelona at the Fira. It's just been crazy here all week. We've been going wall to wall coverage. Am really excited to have John Savill here, as a principal cloud solutions architect at Microsoft. John, welcome to Barcelona, man. Come on in the cube. >> Oh yeah, thank you for having me. I'm not quite getting that Barcelona vibe here, but seems great. >> Well, you were just tell you look great. You just did an iron man up in Idaho, so awesome. Congratulations on completing that and many more in your future, I'm sure. You have a really interesting background. You know, in addition to your amazing cardiovascular capabilities. As a cloud architect, you've got a long history, 20 plus year history, you know, digging in at Microsoft. In your spare time you write books on architecture and you've got a great YouTube channel, a lot of subscribers. Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, so it really started out 25 years ago. I was playing around with windows and technology and I just tried to share information. So I created a website artifact.com and I wrote magazine articles. And then people asked me to write some books and it's really evolved from there. And the most recent thing is actually the YouTube and I really enjoy doing the videos. It's a lot more rapid in terms of creating the content and sharing it, whereas the book takes six months. You'd write the book and then with technology moving as fast as it is, especially the cloud, you write a book on the cloud and then it's published and it's out on date. And so now this ability to create the content and get it to people a few minutes later, it's just phenomenal. So it's my hobby and my passion. And it's the best of both worlds for me. >> I love a CICD of books. Okay, Let's get into it. We've been talking all week about and actually drawing a lot of parallels with the traditional enterprise IT business and what's happening in Telco In one stop I just talking about the shifts in responsibilities for architects and the organizational roles, when you go from, you know, on-prem, everything's inside of a virtual machine, when you go to the cloud, there's a lot more optionality. As you just pointed out, things are a lot faster. What have you seen in your experience what's different? What should we be thinking about? >> Yeah, so exactly, as you said, it on premise really everything is a virtual machine. It's an OS that you have to manage, like the thing about the patching, the security, the policy. And then I have to put things inside this virtual machine, but that's my unit of work. Some coming to the site and look at containers on premises. And then they struggle with managing one even orchestrator. So I'm managing Kuberneters and ITs and there's work there. When you move to the cloud, you have all these other types of service. You think about serverless kind of at an end of a spectrum where, hey, I just have some code. I want to run based on some event, maybe a schedule, maybe a web hook, some trigger, some event happens. And I only pay for when it's doing work. But what I care about is my code or my focus is this is my code. I don't care about any of the other stuff that makes it work. I just can focus on my code, but you still have the options. I can do containers. I can do virtual machines if that's what I want to do. But my responsibility can really laser focus just on the business value. Generally as a company, I don't really care about managing an OS or patching, I want to see what differentiates my business from someone else. And when I moved to the cloud, I can shift my focus to just that business value and let the cloud vendor take care of the responsibility of keeping the things running, enables me to shift and just focus on value, which is key. >> And as a cloud vendor, that allows you to price by consumption in a very transparent way, and as a customer, now I know what I'm paying for and I can align that investment as you were just pointing out with the business value. >> Oh, absolutely. Right, so again, on premises, we have bits of equipment. We have this server, with memory and CPU, and generally we have different usage. We have peaks and we have lows. We have the same bit of hardware I'm paying for all of the time, we have disaster recovery. I'm paying for that all of the time. If I have customers all over the world, well, speed of light is speed of light. I have to wrap boxes all over the world in the cloud. I can have services dynamically scale based on the need, based on the work coming in. I can scale the amount of resource% I have available to meet that. So I'm optimizing my costs to only pay for what I actually need at any given moment. And of course we have regions all over the world. So suddenly now I can be super close to my customers. So its right, it completely changes how the companies can think about spending the money to only spend what they have to spend on what they want to spend it on. >> Yeah so the last decade clearly the aha moment for enterprise tech, just in terms of really understanding those benefits. And we saw it, you know, it actually first hit right around the financial crisis. When you know, all the CFOs said, "hey, shift your CapEx to OPEX immediately. And then we came out of that downturn and people said, "hey, this stuff, this cloud stuff actually is really good. Let's start to really change our business models around it." And, and there's a lot of relevance for Telco here. And you've talked about cloud as a, a flat layer, three network, what do you mean by that? >> Yes, if you think about on premises, you have bits of wire. Now that might be copper wire, it might be fiber, but you have these bits of wire that connects stuff. And I can think about connecting different bits of staff, to different network cards to enable me to separate systems and how they can communicate to each other and segregate. So that's how I've always thought about on premise is that why I separate stuff. A little bits of wire connecting different bits of network card. Well in the cloud, you don't have that. It's all software defined networking. If I think about a construct where I put my resources like a virtual network, it's just an IP of the layer three network there are no bits of wire. I can plug into different places. There are no different physical network cards. So we have to shift our thinking, and it can be very difficult. If I'm used to being an on-prem network admin, I'm used to the idea of the lines and cables and multiple nicks with different bits of copper plugged into them. When I go to the cloud, I have to shift that and think it is this flat layer three network. And when I want to segment things, now it's software defined networking walls, networks security groups, maybe botched appliances that can inspect the traffic. But it's a huge shift in thinking to how we now segregate and control how that networking actually functions. And of course, if you then want to extend that to hybrid connectivity, well, how does that then map to why my on-prem network? And I want to extend that to make it completely seamless into the cloud. >> Yeah, I don't want to come back to that, but I want to ask you about some of the organizational roles. 'Cause you've been at this for a couple of decades. So you've seen, you know, you remember the days of when you know, the expertise in managing a LAN a report was, you know, highly valued. It's not anymore. And so your colleagues, your peers in the industry, the architects that are your customers, they have to reinvent themselves. And that that's really now beginning to happen in Telco. So I wonder if you could talk about your thoughts, how you're thinking about cloud in telecom. >> Yeah, so I think what's happening is you still need skills. What shifts is, what is the type of skills you talked about LANs and managing storage. Well, you don't manage LANs anymore, but in the cloud, there's different types of storage service. There's different performance characteristics. IOPS throughput capacity. So we have to shift how we actually think about those skillings so I still need to architect accordingly. It's only to make sure I have the right characteristics, that it's just a different unit of work. I'm working with different tools now. And I think from a kind of telco perspective, they're really looking now, well, how can we leverage the cloud, Telcos in particular, have a huge pressure around very low latency. They have to be close to their customers. They deliver critical services. You can think about emergency services. They have to have super high availability. That's when you start moving to the cloud, they can now embrace the fact that well cloud has these various constructs like different physical structures within independent power calling communications. They have different regions, so I can be close my customers and kind of replicate between them. Through the Telco, you have to kind of firstly think about, well, okay, I still need to adhere to all of these core requirements. That quality of service, giving my customers a great experience, but now we have these different tools available in how we can actually deliver that. I think also a big shift is from a security perspective. I think especially Telcos love the idea of the network. The network is the be all and end all of security. When you start using the cloud network is still super important, but identity becomes this huge factor as well, because now I don't have this moat around my physical box. That copper wire doesn't have this disconnect. I'm in the cloud as so now we think about, well, how does the identity play into actually securing our resources? Because now we're going to have all these different cloud services that are going to talk to each other. We need to do that in a secure way. So the identity becomes this much bigger part of my architecture networks still super important, but now identity bumps up there as well. And I think that that's a key thing for Telcos is that there's a shift there. >> Yeah, well on speaking of shifts, a big conversation and Theme CubeCon this year was the shift left with security and designing security in. And really when you think about infrastructure as code, the programmable network, and you combine that with the cloud, I mean, Microsoft has gone through the greatest transformation of any tech company in the history of tech. And it did so with a cloud first mentality. And now you see that cloud expanding. It's clearly on prem you're bringing that you're connecting those, but now the edge. 5g networks and the it's very, you know, super exciting, you know, new compute architectures and new programming models. So this you're essentially building this abstraction layer that developers can really take advantage of having consistency across all those physical locations, really hiding the underlying complexity. I wonder if you could comment on that. >> Not, exactly. You're a 100% correct. So right Azure was a cloud service. So we had this cloud and we had services operating in that cloud, app services, data services, machine learning but you still have requirements for on-premises components. You talk about the edge. Well, hey, I may be, I'm using a private wireless network. I have my RAD, I have the core kind of packet switching components. Well, I still want things on premises then I need compute, I need workers running on my edge, close to where the data's being generated IOT sensors. What Azure has is yes, it has the public cloud services. Then it has things like Azure like edge, Azure stack hub, Azure like HCI that let me actually have things on premises in different form factors. But the can now run consistently like Azure services. I can manage them through Azure services, policy, security constructs, identity constructs, and then with things like if I have Kubernetes any kind of Kubernetes CNCF-compliant, I can actually now sync Azure arc, manage it through the cloud and I can deploy SQL manage instance, Postgres hyper-scale, machine learning, app services, serverless functions now running on-prem. So as a developer, as an architect, I create my solution, but now I can run it in the cloud, I can run it on premises. I don't have to make that conscious decision and do things differently. If my requirements change, I can move or do hybrid. So it really is a game changer. The customer gets the choice. I can leverage these technologies. I can write code and architect solutions and then run it where makes the most sense for me. >> Yeah, and we just got a couple of minutes here, just as we saw new applications emerge in the cloud, we're going to see new applications emerge at the edge. The developers will win the edge, I've said it many times. I'll give you the last thoughts, John. >> No, I just think it's a, it's an amazing, exciting time. I mean, you talked about kind of the whole shift left more and more companies are moving into kind of the whole infrastructures code and the dev ops models. And now we see security embedded all the way at the start of our pipeline. But I really just think this is the time now as a customer, as a Telco, you do have this fantastic set of capabilities available to you in the cloud, but you're always going to have, I think that on-premise is component as well. So you don't have to compromise. I don't have to say, well, I'd love to use this service, but wow, I had this anchor or I had this requirement on prem. I can use the same services. You have that complete choice. You can operate in the same way, the same pipelines, the same dev ops, the same security and one where it makes the most sense for you. I mean, it's a fantastic time. >> Well, John, thanks so much for virtually coming into Barcelona. We've got this great hybrid event, good luck in your career and in your Ironman competitions, all the best to you. Thank you. >> Thank you for having me, the pleasure. >> It's been our pleasure. So we're here, live at the, the Fira in Barcelona. We're in Cloud City. I'll tell you, I'll set it up. It's not like jammed packed where you can't move, you know, good thing we're in, still in the COVID, but it's like the post isolation economy here, but we're really excited to be sharing with you. We're going to go back to the studio to Adam Burns right now.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios and Palo Alto in Boston. Connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at our Palo Alto studio as kind of our on going leadership coverage of what's happening with the COVID crisis, and really looking out into our community to find experts who can provide tips and tricks, and some guidance as everyone is kind of charting these uncharted waters if you will. And we've got a great cube alarm in our database. He's a fantastic resourcer. We're excited to get him on. Share the information with you. We'd like to welcome once again, Darren Murph. He is the Head of Remote for GitLab. Darren, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so thank you and. First off, we had you on earlier this year, back when things were normal, in kind of a regular review. Who knew that you would be at the center of the work-from-home universe just a few short months later. I mean, you've been doing this for ever. So it's kind of a wile old veteran of the work-from-home, or not even from home, just work from some place else. What are some top level things that you can share for people that have never experienced this before? >> Yeah, on the working front. If you're one of the people that are working from home, I think there's a couple of things you can do to help acclimate, make your world a little bit better. The first is to try to create some sort of separation between your work life and your personal life. Now if you have a home big enough that you can dedicate a workspace to being your office, that's going to help a lot. Help from a focus standpoint and just. You don't want those lines between work and life to blur too much, that's where isolation kicks in. That's where burnout kicks in. You want to do whatever you can to avoid. You got to remember, when you're not physically walking out of a office and disconnecting from work. You have to replicate that and recreate that. I actually recommend for people that used to have a commute and now they don't. I would actually black something in your calendar, whether that's cooking, cleaning, spending time with your family. Resting more, anything so that you ramp into your day very deliberately and ramp out of very deliberately. Now on the team leading front. I'm going to say it may feel a little counter intuitive, but the further your team is from you, the more distributed they are. The more you really need to let go and allow them to have mechanism for feeding back to you. Managers job in a remote setting switches from just being a pure director, you're actually being an unblocker. A really active listener. And for people who have gotten to a certain point in their career through command and control, this is going to feel very strange, jarring and counter intuitive, but we've seen it time and time again. You need to trust that your workers are in a new environment. You have to give them a mechanism feeding back to you to help them unblock whatever it is. >> You know that's funny, we had someone on as part of this the other day, talking about leaders need to change their objectives that they're managing to, from kind of activity based, to deliverals based. And it actually floored me that someone is still writing in a blog in 2020, that people have to change their management deliverables from activity to deliverables. And it was so funny, you know, you had Martin Mikos on, we had him on too. My favorite comment was, "It's so easy to fake it in the office and look busy, "but when you're at home all you have is your deliverable." so it really, it seems like there's kind of a forcing function to get people to pay attention to the things they should be managing to anyway. >> You said it, forcing functions. I talk about this all the time, but there are so many forcing functions in remote that help you do remote well. But not only just do remote well, just run your business well. Even if you plan on going back to office. On some level there's a lot of things you can do now to help pave the infrastructure to creating a better and more effective team. And as a manager, if you have it in a writing down. The metrics or expectations for your direct reports in the office, now's the time to do it. Subjectivity is allowed to flourish in the office. You can praise or promote people just kind of how much you like them or how easy they are to work with. That really has nothing to do with metrics and results. I've often been asked, "How do you know if "someone's been working remotely?" And my response is, how do you know if they were working in the office. If you can't clearly answer that in the office, then you're not going to be able to answer it remotely. So frankly, in these times a lot of the burden falls more on the manager to actually take a hard look at what they're clarifying to their team. And if the metrics aren't laid out. It's on the manager to lay that out. It's not the responsibility of the direct report to figure out how to prove their worth. The manager has to be very articulant about what that value looks like. >> Right, and not only do they have to be articulate about what the deliverables are and what their expectations are, but. You guys have a remote play book GitLab has published, which is terrific. People should go online, it's 38 pages of dense, dense, dense material. It's a terrific resource, it's a open source, you got to love the open source, eat those. But one of the slides that jumped out to me, and it's consistent with a lot of these conversations that we're having, is that your frequency of communications when people are not in the same room together. Has to go up dramatically, which is a little counter intuitive, but what I found even more interesting was the variety of types of communication. Not just you kind of standard meeting, or you standard status on a project, or maybe a little bit of a look forward to some strategic stuff. But you outlined a whole variety of types of communication. Objectives or methods, or feel if you will, to help people stay connected and to help kind keep this team building going forward. >> So here's the thing about communication. You've got to be intentional about it in a remote setting. And in fact, you need to have more intentionality across the board in a remote setting. And communications is just a very obvious. So for a lot of companies, they leave a lot of things to spontaneity Inter-personal relationships and communications are two of the biggest ones. Where you may not actually lay out a plan for how work is communicated about, or what opportunities you give people to chat about their weekends, or sports, or anything like that. You just kind of put them in the same building and then people just kind of figure it out. In a remote setting that's unwise. You're going to get a lot of chaos and disfunction when people don't know how to communicate and on what channel. So at GitLab we're very prescriptive that work communication happens in a GitLab issue or a merge request. And then informal communication happens through Zoom calls or Slack. We actually expired our Slack messages after 90 days, specifically to force people not to do work in Slack. We want the work to begin where it needs to end up, and in that case it's a very, it's a tool, GitLab, that's built for asynchronous communication. We want to continue to encourage that bias towards asynchronous communication. So yeah, we write down everything about how we want people to communicate and through what channels. And that may sound like a lot of rules, but actually it's very much appreciated by our global team. We have over 1200 people, in more that 65 countries. And they all just need to know where communication is going to happen. And our team is really cohesive and on the same page because we're articulant about that. >> So I want to double down on that. On 'A secret is peace', 'cause you brought this up, or you and Stu brought it up in your conversation with Stu, and Stu raised an interesting point, right. Unfortunately in the day of email and connected phones, and this and that, there has grown an expectation that used to be business, okay was, "I'll get back to you within 24 hours "if you leave me a voicemail." And lord knows what it was when we were still typing letters and memos, and sticking stuff in the yellow envelop with the string, right, as multiple days. But somehow that all got changed to, "I need to hear back form you now." And often it feels like, if your trying to have just some uninterrupted work time, to get something done. It's like, why is your lack of planning suddenly my emergency. And you talked about, you can't operate that on a global, asynchronous team because everyone's in different timezones. And just by rule, there are going to be a lot of people that are not awake when you need the answer to that question. But that you've developed a culture that that's okay, and that that is kind of the flow and the pacing which A, forces people to ask in advance, not immediately when you need it. But also gives people unfettered time to actually plan to do work versus plan to answer communications. I wonder if you can dig into how did that evolve and how do you enforce that when somebody comes in from the outside world. >> The real key to that is something that might not be immediately apparent to everyone. Which is, at GitLab we try to shift as much burden as we possibly can humans to documentation. And this even starts at onboarding, where to get onboarded at GitLab, you get an onboarding issue within GitLab, with over 200 check boxes of things to read and knowledge assessments to take. And humans are a part of it, but very minimal compared to what most companies would do. And the thing that you just outlined was, we're talking about asking questions. Or tapping someone on the shoulder to fill in a knowledge gap. But at GitLab we want to write everything down in a very formalized structured way. We try to work handbook first. So we need to document all of our processes, protocols and solutions. Basically everything that we've ever seen or done, needs to be documented in the handbook. So it's not that GitLab team members just magically need less information, it's just that instead of having to ask someone on our team, we go ask the handbook. We go consult the documentation. And the more rich that your documentation is, the less you have to bother other people, and the less you need to rely on synchronicity. So for us it all starts with operating handbook first. That allows our humans to reserve their cycles for doing truly creative things, not just answering your question for the thousandth time. >> Right, another thing you covered, which I really enjoyed was getting senior executives to work from home for an extended period of time. Now obviously, before COVID that would probably be a lot harder to do. Well now COVID has forced that. And I think to your point about that is, it really forces the empathy for someone who had no interest in working from home. Didn't like to work from home. Loves going to the office, has their routine. Been doing it for decades, to kind of wake up to A, you need to have more empathy for what this is all about. And B, what's it all about by actually doing it. So I wonder, kind of your take in the movement to more of a work from anywhere future. Now that all the senior executives have been thrown into this work from home situation. >> Look Jeff, you never want to waste a crisis. We can't wish away the crisis that's in front of us, but we can choose how we respond to it. And this does present an opportunity to lay ground work, to lay infrastructure, to build a more remote organization. And I have absolutely advocated for companies to get their leadership teams out of the office for a meaningful amount of time. A month, ideally a quarter. So that they actually understand what the remote life is. They actually have some of those communication gaps and challenges so they can document what's happening. And then help fix it. But to your point, executives love going to the office because they're on a different playing field to begin with. They usually have an executive assistant. Things are just. There's less friction in general. So it behooves them to just kind of keep charging in that direction, but now what we have is a situation where all of those executives are remote. And I'm seeing a lot of them say, "You know what, I'm seeing the myths that I've perpetrated "break down in front of me." And this is even in the most suboptimal time ever to go remote. This isn't remote work, this is crisis induced work from home. We're all dealing with social isolation. Our parents are also doubling as homeschool teachers. We have a lot going on. And even on top of all of that, I'm amazed at how adaptable the human society has been. In just adjusting to this and figuring it out on the fly. And I think the companies that take this opportunity, to ask themselves the right question, and build this into their ongoing talent and operational strategy, will actually come out stronger on the other side. >> Yeah, as you said. This is as challenging as it's ever been. There was no planning ahead, you're spouse or significant other's also working from home. And has the same Zoom schedule as you do, for some strange reason, right. The kids are home as you said, and your homeschooling them. And they also have to get on Zoom to do their classes. So it's really suboptimal. But as you said, it's a forcing function and people are going to learn. One of the other things in your handbook is the kind of definitions. It's not just work from home or work at the office, but there's actually a continuum and a spectrum. And as people are doing this for weeks and months. And behaviors turn into habits. People are not going to want to go back to sitting on 101 for two hours every morning to go work on a laptop in the office. It just doesn't make sense. So as you kind of look forward. How do you see the evolution. How are people taking baby steps, if you will. To incorporate more of this learning as we go forward. And incorporate into more of their regular, everyday procedures. >> I'm really optimistic about the future because what I see happening here is people are unlocking their imaginations. So once they've kind of stabilized, they're starting to realize, "Hey, I'm getting a lot more time with my family. "I'm spending a lot less on gas. "I just feel better as a person because I don't show up "to work everyday with road rage. "So how can I keep this going." And I genuinely think what's going to happen in four or five months, we're going to have millions of people collectively look at each other and they say, "The boss just called me back into the office "but I just did my job from home. "Even in suboptimal conditions. "I saw my family more, I exercised more. "I had more time to cook and clean. "How about no, I'm not going to go back to the office "as my default location." And I think what's going to happen is the 80, 20 rule is going to flip. Right now people work from home only for a special occasion, like the cable company's coming or something like that. Going forward it think the offices are going to be the special occasion. You're only going to commute to the office, or fly to the office when you have a large contingent of people coming in and you need to wine and dine them, or something like that. And the second order of this is, people that are only living in expensive cities because of their location. When their lease comes up for renewal, they're going to cast a glance at places like Wyoming and Idaho, and Ohio. Maybe even Vietnam and Cambodia, or foreign places. Because now you have them thinking of, "What could life look like if I decouple geography at work. "I still want to work really hard "and contribute this knowledge. "But I can go to a place with better air quality, "better schools, better opportunity to actually "invest in a smaller community, "where I can see real impact." And I think that's just going to have massive, massive societal impacts. People are really taking this time to consider how tightly their identity has been woven into work. Now that they're home and they've become something more than just whatever the office life has defined them as. I think that's really healthy. I think a lot of people may have intertwined those two things too tightly in the past. And now it's a forcing function to really ask yourself, you aren't just your work, you're more than your work. And what can that look like when you can do that job from anywhere. >> Right, right. And as you said, there's so many kind of secondary benefits in terms of traffic and infrastructure, and the environment and all kinds of things. And the other thing I think that's interesting what you said, 80, 20 I think that was pretty generous. I wouldn't give it a 20 percent. But if people, even in this hybrid steps, do more once a week, twice a week. Once every two weeks, right. The impact on the infrastructure and peoples lives is going to be huge. But I wanted to drill on something as we go into kind of this hybrid mode at some point in time. And you talked about, and I thought it was fascinating, about the norms and really coming out from a work from home first, or a work from anywhere first. Your very good at specifying anywhere doesn't mean home. Could be the library, could be the coffee shop. Could be an office, could be a WeWork. Could be wherever. Because if you talked about the new norms and the one I thought was really interesting, which probably impacts a lot of teams, is when some of the team's in the office and some of the team isn't. The typical move, right, is to have everyone in the office go into the conference room. We sit around one big screen. So you get like five people sitting around one table and you got a bunch of heads on Zoom. And you said, "You know, no. "Let's all be remote. So if we just be happen to be sitting at our desk. If we happen to be in the office, that's okay. But really normalize. And like we saw the movement from Cloud got to Cloud-e to Cloud first, why not Cloud. And then you know, kind of mobile and does it work in a mobile. No, no, no it has to. It's mobile first. Really the shift to not, can it be done at home, but tell me why it shouldn't be done at home, a really different kind of opening position as to how people deploy resources and think about staffing and assigning teams. It's like turning the whole thing upside down. >> Completely upside down. I think remote first to your point, is going to be the default going forward. I think we're just one or two quarters away from major CEO's sitting on the hot seat on CNBC, when it's their turn for quarterly earnings. And they're going to have to justify why they're spending what they spend on real estate. Is if your spending a billion dollars a year on real estate, you could easily deploy that to more people, more R&D. Once that question is asked in mass, that is when you're going to see the next phase of this. Where you really have to justify, even from a cost stand point, why are you spending so much? Why are you tying so much of your business results to geography. The thing about remote first is that it's not a us versus them. A lot of what we've learned at GitLab, and how we operate so efficiently. They work really well for remote teams, and they are remote first. But they would work just as well in an office. We attach a Google doc agenda to every single business meeting that we have, so that there's always an artifact. There's always a documented thread on what happened in a meeting. Now this would work just as well in a co-located meeting. Who wouldn't want to have a meeting where it's not just in one ear and out the other. You're going to give the time to the meeting, you might as well get something out of it. And so a lot of these remote forced. Remote first forcing functions, they do help remote teams work well. But I think it's especially important for hybrid teams. Offices aren't going to vanish overnight. A lot of these companies are going to have some part of their company return to the office, when travel restrictions are lifted. It think the key here is that its going to be a lot more fluent. You're never going to know on a day to day basis, who is coming into the office, and who is not. So you need to optimize for everyone being out of the office. And if they just so happen to be there, they just so happen to be there. >> Right, right. So before we. I want to get into one little nitty gritty subject, in terms of investment into the home office. You know, we're doing 100% remote interviews now on theCUBE, we used to go to pretty much. Probably 80% of our business was at events, or at peoples offices, or facilities. Now it's all dial-in. You talked a lot about people need to flex a little bit on enabling people to invest in the little bits and pieces of infrastructure for their home office, that they just don't have the same set ups. You're talking about multiple monitors, a comfortable chair, a good light. That there's a few things you can invest in, not tremendous amounts of money. But a couple of hundred bucks here and there, to make a big difference on the home work environment. And how people should think about making that investment into a big monitor that they don't see. It's not sitting at the desk in the office. >> 100%, look if you're coming from a co-located space, you're probably sitting in a cube that costs five, 10, maybe 20 thousand dollars put together. You might not notice that, but it's not cheap to build cubicles in a high rise. And if you go to your home and you have nothing set up, I would say it's on the people group to think really hard about being more lax and more lenient about spending policy. People need multiple monitors. You need a decent webcam, you need a decent microphone. You need a chair that isn't going to kill your back. You want to help people create healthy ergonomics. Sustainable workspaces in their home. This is the kind of thing that will inevitably impact productivity. You force someone to just be hunched over on their couch, in front of a 13 inch laptop. I mean, what kind of productivity do you really expect from that. That's not a great long term solution. I think the people group actually has a higher burden to bare all the way around. You know when it comes to making sure teams feel like teams and they have the atmosphere to connect on a meaningful level. It comes down to the people group, to not letting that just go to spontaneity. You want to have a happy hour virtually, you're going to have to put a calendar invite on peoples calendar. You're going to create topical channels in Slack for people to talk about things other than work. Someone's going to have to do that. They don't just happen by default. So, from hardware all the way to communication. The people group really needs to use this opportunity to think about, "Okay, what can we unlock in this new world." >> Right, I'm glad you said the people group and not the resources group because they're not coal, or steel, or a factory. >> No, if anything COVID has humanized this in a way, and I think it's actually a really big silver lining, where we're all now peering into each others homes. And it is glaringly obvious, that we're all humans first, colleagues second. And of course that always been the case, but there's something about a sterile or co-located work environment. You check a piece of you at the door. And you just kind of get down to business. Why is that, we have technology at out fingertips. We can be humans with each other. And that going to actually encourage more empathy. As we've seen at GitLab, more empathy leads to better business results. It leads to more meaningful connections. I mean, I have people, friends, located all over the world that I feel like I have a closer bond with. A closer, more intimate connection with that a lot of people I've met in office. To some degree you don't know who they really are. You don't know what they really love and what makes them tick. >> Right, right. All right Darren, so before I let you go and again thank you for the time, the conversation. I'm sure everyone is calling you up and I just love the open source ETHOS and the sharing. It's made such a huge impact on the technology world and second order impacts that a lot of people take advantage. Again, give us the place that people can go for the playbook, so they can come and leverage some of the resources. And again, thank you guys for publishing 'em. >> Absolutely, so we're an open source. We try to open source all of our learnings on remote. So go to allremote.info that will redirect you right into the All Remote section of GitLab handbook. All of which is open source. Right at the top you can download the remote playbook, which is PDF that we talked about. Download that, it takes you through all of our best information on getting started and thriving as a remote team. Just under that there's a lot of comprehensive guides on how we think about everything. And how we operate synchronously. How we handle meeting, and even hiring and compensation. allremote.info and of course you're welcome to reach out to me on Twitter, I'm @darrenmurph. >> All right, well thanks a lot Darren. And I find it somewhat ironic that you have a jetliner over your shoulder. Waiting for the lockdown and the quarantine to end so you can get back on the airplane. And we're looking forward to that day. >> Can't wait man, I miss, I miss the airplanes. I told someone the other day, I never thought I'd say I miss having a middle seat at the very back of the airplane, with someone reclined into my nose. But honestly, I can't wait. Take me anywhere. >> I think you'll be fighting people for that seat in another month or so. All right, thanks a lot, Darren. >> Absolutely, take care all. >> All right, he's Darren. I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, from our Palo Altos Studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the special CUBE presentation here in the studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, this special segment's experiencing the future of networking with the extend the SD-WAN to Wireless LAN segment conversation with Bruce Miller, Vice President of Product Marketing at Riverbed Xirrus, thanks for joining me today. Thanks for coming in. >> Great, thanks for having me. >> So, we had a whole segment on experiencing the future of networking with SD-WAN in action, but this is a dedicated segment really addressing the hottest area in the planet right now, relative to networking, that's wireless. >> Mmmhmm. >> Known as Wireless LAN, local area networking, or WiFi, is pervasive, it's everywhere, most everyone knows about WiFi if they have a device, they've had connections, large stadiums, large events, a lot of use cases, for it. But there's also the use case of Internet of Things. This certainly is a topic of conversation for the future -- >> Absolutely. >> of networking. >> Yeah, and you know, WiFi is pervasive like you said, >> It's the connection to the Internet for most people. In fact, a lot of people equate that, WiFi equals the Internet for a lot of teenagers for example, so, and as you mention the IoT, and where we are moving forward, it's all about growth and scale, I mean, we only had maybe one or two WiFi devices five or six years ago, now we're walking around with three, sometimes four, we have college students showing up with 15 sometimes, in their dorms. So it's very pervasive, and then the IoT as you mentioned, billions and billions of devices coming online. So, what we've seen is very much a scale and the need to scale these WiFi networks. >> Yeah, and folks watching that are in the business of IT, we're all consumers too. We've all been to stadiums or places where there's plenty of WiFi, but you just can't get the page to load. That's a backhaul issue, or, in some cases, there's not enough WiFi frequency around. So it's been a dense challenge, it's been scale challenges, and then on the IoT side for large enterprises, they have requirements that have to meet the network configurations. >> Right. >> So, there's complexity and scale on many fronts. This is the top priority of companies -- >> Yeah. >> How are you, how do you see that evolving, because, WiFi wasn't really kind of built for that -- >> Yeah. >> in the old days. How has it evolved today? >> This is actually a topic that Xirrus kind of solved very early on, so if you go back 10, 12 years, when we first put the company together, it was foreshadowing or foreseeing that this was going to happen. There was a lot of money going into the WiFi devices, if you actually think about it, the WiFi devices we're carrying around, but not the infrastructure. So, we've set out to solve that problem, and really the market kind of eventually came to us, in the sense of, "Hey, how do I get 10,000 people online at a convention center?", for example, or 20,000 people, 80,000 people in a stadium? Those are the extreme examples, but in general, it's just pervasive everywhere. You know, you need WiFi indoors, outdoors, in the elevator shafts, in the bathrooms, we're called to cover any kind of scenario, from that perspective. And so, Xirrus, that was a challenge that we took on, and today, I believe we solve it very very well, because we can scale into these scenarios. It keeps on going, up and to the right. I mean, there's more traffic, there's more devices on the network every single day. Millions of devices in fact, are provisioned to connect to WiFi every single day that are new, and that keeps on, like I said, going up, and up and up. >> So, scale and density has been your forte at Xirrus, now part of Riverbed through the acquisition. Translate that to the end user, customer for you, which is the person in IT, or someone in operational technologies that has to deploy network fast. >> Right. >> And they're going to use wireless and WiFi for that. >> Mmmhmm. >> What's in it for them? >> Yeah, and that's very key part of it is deploying and getting this out there very simply and it's scale. And provisioning the WiFi network, deploying something that is now basically a utility, you know, think about it, water, gas, water, electric, all these things are utilities, WiFi is basically the same thing. In fact, I was just visiting a higher ed customer of ours, who made that statement, if the power goes out, the students are asking for WiFi, they expect it to still work, right? It's more important in fact, almost to them, if they don't have that. >> God forbid they lose the Internet, but they're happy to live without power. >> Yeah, yeah. Or water, or whatever. So, we see it that way, WiFi is a utility. You need to make it utility grade, you need to make it enterprise grade so it can scale and support those things. So, you hit on a couple of those key things, how do you do it at scale, and then how do you provision and make that very ubiquitous and be able to roll that out in a broad fashion. That's key to what we do. >> I know you got a demo we're going to get to that shortly, so, stay tuned, stay with us for the demo, we'll walk through a use case, let's talk about the integration with Riverbed. Why is it now important? Because I think we all can imagine and see how WiFi is relevant. No doubt about it. Scale is a huge thing happening as more devices come online, people, and machines. But when it has to connect into the network, that's a big conversation point with IT practitioners and people in these large companies, they want more WiFi, they want it secure, they want it at scale, they want it with all the policies, where's that integration with Riverbed, can you explain how that works? >> Right, and that's key to where the acquisition came from. So we kind of talked about scale and then complexity and how you deploy these things. The integration with Riverbed is really focused on the second one, where, there's the SD-WAN, story that we've been talking about, and the vision for running common policies across the WAN, the LAN, the WLAN, into the datacenter, all managed through the cloud. And Xirrus fulfills that WLAN piece of that equation where it can deployed at the wireless edge, connecting all those devices in an enterprise, or in whatever deployment you're talking about. And now the policies that are actually deployed are common with what is being put into the SD-WAN portion of it, so in the Riverbed side of things that's the SteelConnect solution. So, we're integrating in as part of the SteelConnect solution to support the software defined LAN, so to speak, at the edge of the network, with switches and WiFi access points that will support that. So, the synergies are very much there in terms of, providing that vision across the entire network. >> So full integration into SteelConnect, from a managing and provisioning standpoint, demo perspective -- >> Right. Yeah, configuration and the policies, especially the application layer policies where you can say, "Hey, I have a new CRM application that I'm rolling out", or database application. Then that policy to prioritize that, and ensure a good user experience could be rolled out across the entire network. >> Give some quick use cases of customer industries that you guys are successful in. >> Sure. So, probably the one we're best known for is what we call large public venues or LPVs, this could be for example, Louisville Pro Football Club, which is a great name for us, Microsoft is another customer, so these are places where you have literally 10,000, 20,000 people connecting at once, or 80,000 people in the stadium for example, a portion of those are connected to WiFi. That is a very very difficult scenario to actually solve. We did some things that are very unique in the industry to support those kind of situations. Another big one for us is education. That is actually the biggest WiFi market in general, if you look at how many people are buying it, or what kind of organizations are buying WiFi. And we have some very large customers there, Brigham Young University for example in Idaho. Columbus State University, these are scenarios where they've rolled ubiquitous WiFi across campus, stadiums, basketball arenas, all the way to the dorms, to the offices, to the auditoriums, to the libraries, indoor, outdoor, I mean, very broad use cases. And that's what you see in higher ed. >> WiFi really kind of redefines, it doesn't reimagine, but it redefines what a campus is. I mean college -- >> Yeah. >> You know what a campus is, hospitals, large venues like public -- >> Right. >> Flash mob contained campus. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Problem there is different. >> Yeah. >> Too many people trying to get into the -- >> All at the same time. >> Spectrum. >> Yeah, we call that flash traffic, like when you see like at halftime maybe of a game, or some event happens -- >> Touchdown all the videos -- >> Yeah everybody wants to do it at the same time, and those are very challenging to support. Those kind of scenarios, and that's something that we have really defined a solution that can handle very well. >> Well, congratulations, thank you for building that, because I love to get my WiFi at Stanford Stadium, and all the other places that need to have that. And when I go to Liverpool to watch a soccer game, I'll think about you guys. Okay, let's get into the demo, let's take a real life in action of extending SD-WAN into wireless LANs with WiFi. >> Right. >> Show us what you got here. Sure. So, the first thing I want to talk about is provisioning the network. So, we have a solution called CommandCenter that makes that very fast, and easy. This is actually a view of a dashboard that shows multiple tenants in a cloud management system. Okay? So, imagine each of these as a separate customer, or, if I'm a large organization, this could be separate sites or locations. So, I'm going to just do an example here and say, let's create a new customer. And, say theCUBE is that customer. >> John: Alright, we like that. >> Bruce: I will say that we're enabling you with WiFi, so I'll create theCUBE. And what this is actually doing is just with literally a few mouse clicks I've actually created a new cloud instance that is theCUBE, and then what I can come down here and do, is edit that location, and let's just say that let's see here, Joe is going to be the administrator of that, so he's going to have access to manage that network. And then I have identified a couple access points here, I'm just going to drag and drop those in there. And these are now provisioned to theCUBE. And then, the last thing I'm going to do is, let's take a profile, so let's say, I have a configuration template or whatever, maybe I'll just call you, you have a business profile, and I'm going to deploy that, to your location as well. Hit deploy, and basically just that quickly what I've done is actually spun up a new customer, so you can imagine if you're a service provider in fact, then that means you're quicker to revenue. I'm actually able to turn on a customer and start charging 'em for WiFi, right? >> John: Let's stay on this example with theCUBE, because I think this is really important to the dense cloud problem. So we go to Moscone Center all the time. >> Bruce: Sure. >> And they have WiFi, they have large crowds come in, and we're still doing a live broadcast, there. >> Right, sure. >> So, I'd love to have my own WiFi provisioned. Is that what that happened there? Could they potentially say, dedicate this access point, or this subnet of the network to theCUBE? >> It could, it'd be a variation on this, but absolutely. One of the things that we do very well is taking a WiFi device, or a AP, and segment it out for use cases like that. >> John: AP being access point. >> Access point, exactly. So, in a convention environment like that, those are actually quite challenging, cause you have so many people on the network and what you need to do is carve out a resource that might be dedicated to that. So, if you can't get WiFi, >> Like a video -- >> We can do that. >> We do video production, so we want to actually prioritize the video traffic. >> Absolutely, and we'll show that a little bit later in the demo -- >> or the recreational... >> Yeah, you separate it out and make sure that you're -- >> Okay, continue. So that onramping there -- >> Bruce: Yeah, so basically this was just showing you how quickly you can create theCUBE. This is the environment that I basically set up. It's got a couple APs, it's ready to go. I can now start, I can plug in those access points, and that site is up and running. So that's the provisioning aspect. The second aspect of WiFi that we're going to talk about is access to the network itself. This is actually a challenge with a lot of environments, that's, you know, how do I get all these people onto the network, at the same time, and do that very easily without IT getting a phone call saying, "Hey, help me. I dunno what the password is," >> John: So onboarding users and stuff like that? >> Bruce: Yeah, onboarding. So, what we have for a solution there is called EasyPass. That solution allows you to create the portals that you see when you log into the network. >> John: Like going through the toll booths. >> Bruce: Yeah, and it basically provides a very easy way of doing that. So let's just say this is theCUBE guest, and I'll create a new portal, and this is a guest network, right? So I know when I came in here today, I connected to the WiFi network, I had to figure out how to do that, and what was the password? So let's just say we're creating a WiFi network here, this just shows how easy and quick that interface is. I can customize a page, let's select an image, we'll select a background image here, and then actually use Facebook and Google can be optionally used to log in. So just that quickly, I've created a portal that says, "This is what you're going to see when you log in." Now, obviously, if it's theCUBE you'd put your own logos and data there, but the idea here is that a user can come in here and either register with his email, or use Facebook or Google, for example, you get on the network. >> John: Is that OAuthing in, through the pre-existing credentials? >> Bruce: This is using, in this case, yeah with Facebook you're using the credential that they have to get onto their system, and you're basically using that for WiFi as well. So that the username and password is now providing access. >> John: So it's seamless to the user what their choice is. >> Bruce: Yeah, and some people use Facebook, others will just connect with their email. >> John: Some people want to register, but most people just want to connect with Twitter, LinkedIn, or whatever they have. >> Bruce: Yeah, and so this basically shows how quick and easy it is to set up a guest page, that gets somebody on the network, very simple to use, and so IT administers love this because it simplifies their job significantly. The other thing I wanted to show real quick is just the Microsoft Azure and Google integration. We actually have integration directly with these two ecosystems, where, if you're already are in an Office 365 shop, or a Google Apps shop, as a lot of schools are, they can just use those credentials, the student, the user logs in with their laptop, with their username password and it gets them access to WiFi at the same time. >> So if it's connected -- >> Kill two birds with one stone. >> So if it's active directory you got your Microsoft, if it's Google and what they use, you can do that. >> Bruce: Yeah, so it's all in the cloud. So now, this is again, moving everything to the cloud as opposed to using some local resource to do authentication, and maintaining those resources. >> John: That seems to be the theme with Riverbed. Simplify. >> Bruce: Right, absolutely. And that's, those are the two big things here. We're scaling the WiFi network to support these broad use cases, and then we're simplifying it with the tools to enable that to roll out very smoothly. >> Well that's, all the research points to that manual task that don't add value, will be automated away, and those tasks will be shifted to more value activities. Okay, so take us to monitoring. Now what happens when I'm doing my SnapChats, or Instagram, or my Facebook Lives, you go, Woah! >> Bruce: Right. >> John: Or, I'm interested in knowing if someone is downloading the latest movie on BitTorrent. >> Bruce: Yeah, that's very key. So, if I go back to our solution here, the dashboard actually shows what's going on in the network, right? So, this is actually a very flexible interface, you can move things around, create widgets, do different things, and in fact, we have a map function where you would lay all this stuff out on a map, and then I can actually show what the coverage is, for example, that WiFi had a floorplan. This happens to be my house. >> John: That's an RF map right there? >> Bruce: This is actually RF coverage within this location of these access points. >> John: That's very cool. >> Bruce: Then I can jump in here and troubleshoot from there. But to your point in terms of what's going on -- >> John: So it shows overlaying clouds and channels and all that, kind of deep configuration stuff? >> Bruce: All the information If you need to go there. >> John: And you just don't need to get involved in that. >> Bruce: Most of this stuff is automated. There's the auto button for a lot of this when you hook up the WiFi the first time. You don't want to have to tweak all those things, so we have the auto button that 90% of the users would use, or more, and then if you need to tune it we can go from there. But yeah, to your point on in terms of application policies and controls, here's an example of what we do here. For example, I can see what types of traffic is on this network here. So, let's look at, for example, YouTube, and we see that there's actually a couple users here that are using a lot of YouTube traffic, I can click on any of these applications and see what the amount of traffic is associated with that. But what's more interesting then, is doing something about it. So, what we have is a policy engine that recognizes 1600 different applications, and allows me to create policies on them. So, I can create rules, and say, okay, let's look at YouTube specifically. Which is a streaming media application, and you can see we have hundreds in here, in fact 1600 in total, and I can block YouTube if I so desire from the network, or maybe I allow it in there, but I limit that traffic per user, to say, 500K or something like that, so they maybe can't watch a 4K video or something like that. So, enterprises -- >> Make it crawl for 'em. >> Bruce: Yeah, you can do it, but you can't overload the network. So, enterprises, hospitals. Schools love this, because they can get that granular control of the network. Maybe this happens to be instead of an enterprise that's using a database, maybe they're an Oracle shop, and so they want to raise the quality of service on that, and put that high priority. So you can do that just the same. >> John: And so whatever the priority is, they can give bandwidth to it. So, if it's live gaming, if I want to have that game be -- >> Yeah. >> John: That's what I want. >> Bruce: Exactly. >> John: Or minimize it. >> Bruce: So this really, what this map ends up doing is mapping the wireless to the business needs of the organization that's deploying it, so -- >> John: So, the optimization of the network, you can look at, much more clearly with the visualization, and make decisions. On the network map there with the RF, is that for placement of access points, or is that more for understanding propagation, or -- >> Bruce: It's, yeah, we have a separate design tool that allows you to design those heat maps, and then when you actually have a live network what you were looking at was actually the coverage estimation based on what's actually deployed. >> John: So that's kind of -- >> So if an AP goes down it turns red and then you'll see a hole in your coverage, and you know that you have a problem that you have to go and solve. >> Okay great, so it's a little... because you handle it. Okay, analytics. What other analytics do you have in the demo that you can share? >> Bruce: Right. So analytics is an interesting one. We have a lot data that we pull into the network from the WiFi. If you think about it, we know, who is on the network, we know what they're doing, what applications they're going to, we know where they are, because we actually calculate the location of those users, and that information is all pulled into this central location here. So if I pull in a couple of these analytics charts, you actually see now, what is going on in that location over time. Here we have users and how long they're actually in the network. >> John: Can you see the URL path that they're using? >> Bruce: That's in the application portion, right? This is just kind of showing bulk, like, how many users are showing on the network, and how long are they there. And how many are there, and how many are repeat or new. So a retail customer might be interested in that, it's like I'm getting 40% existing customers coming back, but maybe there's 60% on a given day. And then that could change over time depending on location. So, the bottom line is, WiFi is turning for us into a big data challenge or solutional, where I can take all that data on who, what, where, why, that they're doing, and turn that into business intelligence that the retailer, that's a big one, can use for making more intelligent decisions about how they run their business. >> Okay, so, bottom line for the folks watching, with respect to wireless, what's the future state that they need to be thinking about in terms of planning for WiFi and to experience the future of networking, by extending SD-WAN to the wireless LAN. >> Right, so there's a lot of things to consider when you look at WiFi, what you're doing today is probably not going to be the same as what you do next year, and certainly not five years from now. This is actually a big challenge for a lot of our customers to kind of get that future view of what's going to happen, because they're making a purchase decision today, that's going to last them for a while. So, what we look at is solving the problems that those users might run into, which could be scale, you might be using, and seeing double or triple the number of users and traffic in the next few years. So you have to solve that. You have to solve the security problems, which we didn't talk about too much today, but EasyPass is one of the solutions for that. I want to ensure those users can get on, but make sure that they're secure, my corporate data is going to be protected. And then finally, the simplicity of doing that. So, I know my WiFi is going to change, I know the network requirements are going to change, how I can a simply go into an interface through this cloud management solution we provide, and make those changes that are needed, and adapt to that dynamic that we're talking about. Then all of that folds into the broader picture of the SD-WAN story that we talked about with Riverbed where now I can do some of those things across the LAN and the WAN holistically, through a common control point. >> And the common control point is key, because users don't view things as LAN and WAN, they just want their stuff, wherever they are. >> Yeah, they don't care, right. So, you know they might be connected to the WiFi, so that's pretty visible, but in the end, the WiFi could work fine, but if that WAN connection is down, or compromised, or anywhere in between the datacenter, all these things have to be working. >> And the tools to make the integration easier, whether it's Microsoft 365, and Google on Premise, or Google login, or Facebook. >> Right, right. All those ecosystems, I mean, this is a big part of what we're trying to do, is tap into those systems that everybody is using anyway, and make it all seamless. Everyone knows how to login to their Google or, Facebook account, so now let's make that part of the WiFi experience. >> And security is all solid. >> Yeah, security is solid if you use it. And that's the big thing about WiFi, is there's a lot of open guest networks still, out there, and little by little, you're seeing those become secure, but what tends to happen is that security and simplicity, are kind of, er, complexity, and security are kind of at odds with each other. The more secure you make a network, the more complex. >> And here you're making it easier. >> That's why EasyPass, I mean in the name, that's what we do to make that as simple as possible, because security is very important. >> Bruce Miller, extending the SD-WAN to the Wireless LAN, in our segment experiencing the future of networking, thanks so much for sharing, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(techno music) >> Hello and welcome to the special Cube presentation here in the Palo Alto studios of TheCube. I'm here with the Extend SD-Wan to the Wireless LAN segment here at Riverbed. I'm John Furrier. Our next guest is Bruce Miller, Vice President of Product Marketing at Riverbed Xirrus. Welcome to the segment: Extend the SD-Wann to the Wireless Lan Wi-Fi. [Production Man] No Wi-Fi. (sharp clap) >> Production Man: (mumbles) let's try it again. Let's get that good solid intro. >> Okay, good call. (laughing) >> Production Man: Reset please. >> Been a long day. >> Production Man: Yeah, that's okay. >> That's how long? >> Production Man: Well let's see. >> It's a tongue-twister on extend the wireless LAN. (laughing) Doesn't just roll off the tongue. (laughing) I got flustered, hold on. I got to make my font bigger. >> Production Man: You only get one mulligan. >> John: I buy mulligans when I play, or use lifesavers. (techno music) >> Hello and welcome to the special Cube presentation here in the studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, co-host of TheCube. This special segment: Experiencing the Future of Networking With the Extend the SD-WAN to Wireless LAN segment conversation with Bruce Miller, Vice President of Product Marketing at Riverbed Xirrus. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for coming in. >> Great. Thanks for having me. >> So we had a whole segment on experiencing the future of networking with SD-WAN in action, but this is a dedicated segment really addressing the hottest area in the planet right now, relative to networking, that's wireless. Known as wireless LAN, local area networking or Wi-Fi. It's pervasive. It's everywhere. Most everyone knows about Wi-Fi if they have a device. They've had connections at large stadiums, large events, lot of use cases for it. But there's also the use case of internet of things. So this certainly is a topic of conversation for the future -- >> Absolutely. >> John: Of networking. >> Yeah and Wi-Fi is pervasive like you said. It's the connection to the internet for most people. In fact, a lot of people equate that; Wi-Fi equals the internet for a lot of teenagers for example. And as you mentioned, the IoT and where we are moving forward, you know it's all about growth and scale. And we only had maybe one or two Wi-Fi devices five or six years ago and now we're walking around with three, sometimes four. We have college students showing up with 15 sometimes, to their dorm. So it's very pervasive and the IoT, as you mentioned, billions and billions of devices coming online. So what we've seen is very much a scale and the need to scale these Wi-Fi networks. >> Yeah and then folks watching that are in the business of IT, you know we're all consumers too. So we've all been to stadiums or places where there's plenty of Wi-Fi, but you just can't get -- >> Bruce: Right. >> The (mumbles) to load. That's a backhaul issue, or in some cases there's not enough Wi-Fi frequency around. So there's been a dense challenge, there's been scale challenges. And then on the IoT side, for large enterprises, they have requirements that have to meet the network-- >> Right. >> Configuration. So there's complexity and scale on many fronts. This is the top priority companies. >> Yeah. >> How do you see that evolving? Because Wi-Fi wasn't really kind of built for that in the old days? >> Yeah. >> How has it evolved today? >> And it is actually a topic that Xirrus kind of saw very early on. And so if you go back 10, 12 years when we first put the company together, it was foreshadowing or foreseeing that this was going to happen. There was a lot of money going into the Wi-Fi devices, if you actually think about it, the Wi-Fi devices we're carrying around, but not the infrastructure itself. So we set out to solve that problem. And really the market then eventually kind of came to us in the sense of; hey, how do I get 10,000 people online at a convention center for example, or 20,000 people, 80,000 people in a stadium. Those are the extreme examples. But in general, it's just pervasive everywhere. You know you need Wi-Fi indoors, outdoors, in the elevator shafts, in the bathrooms. I mean we're called to cover any kind of scenario from that perspective. And so Xirrus, you know that was a challenge that we took on. And today I believe we solved it very, very well, because we can scale into these scenarios. And it keeps on going up into the right. I mean there's more traffic. There's more devices on the network every single day. Millions of devices in fact are provisioned to connect to Wi-Fi every single day that are new. And that keeps on, like I said, going up, and up. >> So scale and density has been your forte at Xirrus, now part of Riverbed though the acquisition. >> Bruce: Right. >> Translate that to the end-user or customer for you, which is the person either in IT or someone in operational technologies that has to deploy network fast. >> Bruce: Right. >> And they're going to use wireless Wi-Fi for that. What's in it for them? >> Yeah, and that's a very key part of it is deploying and getting this out there very simply and at scale. And you know provisioning the Wi-Fi network, deploying something that is now basically utility. You think about it, gas, water, electric, all these things are utilities. Wi-Fi's basically the same thing. In fact, I was just visiting a higher-ed customer of ours who made that statement. If the power goes out, the students are asking for Wi-Fi. They expect it to still work, right? It's more important, in fact, almost to them if they don't have that. So -- >> God forbid they lose the internet, but they're happy to live without power. >> Yeah, yeah, or water or whatever. So we see it that way. Wi-Fi is a utility. You need to make it utility-grade. You need to make it enterprise-grade, so we can scale and support those things. So you hit on a couple of those key things. How do you do it at scale? And then how do you provision and make that very ubiquitous and be able to role that out in a broad fashion? And that's key to what we do. >> I know you got a demo, we're going to get to that shortly. So stay tuned. Stay with us for the demo. We'll walk through a use case. Let's talk about the integration with Riverbed. Why is now important? Because I think we all can imagine and see how Wi-Fi is relevant. No doubt about it. Scale is a huge thing happening as more devices come online; people and machines. But when it has to connect into the network, that's a big conversation point with IT practitioners and people in these large companies. They want more Wi-Fi. They want it secure. They want it at scale. They want it with all the policies. Where's that integration with Riverbed? Can you explain how that works? >> Right. And that's key to where the acquisition came from. So we kind of talked about scale and then complexity, and how you deploy these things. The integration with Riverbed is really focused on the second one where there's the SD-WAN story that we've been talking about and the vision for running common policies across the WAN, the LAN, the WLAN into the data center, all managed though the cloud. And Xirrus fulfills that WLAN piece of that equation where it can be deployed at the wireless edge, connecting all those devices in an enterprise, or in whatever deployment you're talking about. And now the policies that are actually deployed are common with what is being put into the SD-WAN portion of it. So in the Riverbed side of things, that's a SteelConnect solution. So we're integrating in, as part of the SteelConnect solution, to support the software to find LAN, so to speak, at the edge of the network with switches and Wi-Fi access points that will support that. And so the synergies are very much there in terms of providing that vision across the entire network. >> So full integration of the SteelConnect from a management and provisioning standpoint -- demo perspective. >> Right. Yeah, configuration and the policies. Especially the application layer policies where you can say, hey I have a new CRN application I'm rolling out, or database application. And then that policy to prioritize that and insure a good user experience could be rolled out across the entire network. >> Give some quick use cases of customer industries that you guys are successful in. >> Sure. Probably the one we're best known for is what we call large public venues or LPVs. So this could be, for example, Liverpool Football Club which is a great name for us. Microsoft is another customer. So these are places where you have literally 10,000 and 20,000 people connecting at once, or 80,000 people in the stadium for example, a portion of those are connected to Wi-Fi. That is a very, very difficult scenario to actually solve. So we did some things that are very unique in the industry to support those kind of situations. Another big one for us is education. That is actually the biggest Wi-Fi market in general if you look at how many people are buying it or what kind of organizations are buying Wi-Fi. And we have some very large customers there; Brigham Young University for example and Idaho, Columbus State University. These are scenarios where they've rolled out ubiquitous Wi-Fi across campus, you know, stadiums, basketball arenas, all the way to the dorms, to the offices, to the auditoriums, to the libraries, indoor, outdoor, I mean it's very broad-use cases. And that's what you see in higher ed. >> I mean the Wi-Fi really kind of redefines, doesn't reimagine, but it redefines what a campus is. I mean in college -- >> Bruce: Yeah. >> You know what a campus is; hospitals, large venues like public flash mob contained campus. >> Yeah. >> The problem there's different. >> Yeah. >> There's 28 people trying to get into the -- >> All at the same time. >> Spectrum. >> Yeah, we call that flash traffic when you see, like at halftime maybe of a game, or some event happens. >> John: Touchdown, and all the videos. >> Yeah and everybody wants do do it at the same time. And those are very challenging to support those kind of scenarios. And that's something that we have really defined a solution that can handle very well. >> Well congratulations. Thank you for building that, because I love to get my Wi-Fi at Stanford Stadium and all the other places that need to have that. >> Bruce: Sure. >> And when I go to Liverpool to watch a soccer game-- >> Bruce: Yeah. I'll be kind of thinking about you guys. >> Bruce: Next time you're there. >> Okay, let's get into the demo. Let's take the real life, in action of extending SD-WAN to wireless LANs with Wi-Fi. >> Right. >> Show us what you got here. >> Bruce: Sure. So the first thing I want to talk about is provisioning the network. We have solution called CommandCenter that makes that very fast and easy. And this is actually a view of a dashboard that shows multiple tenants in a cloud management system. Okay, so imagine each of these as a separate customer. Or if I'm a large organization, this could be separate sites or locations. So I'm going to just do an example here and say let's create a new customer, and say TheCube is that customer. >> John: All right, I like that. >> Bruce: I will say that we're enabling you with Wi-Fi. So I'll create TheCube. And what this is actually doing is just with literally a few mouse clicks I've actually created a new cloud instance that is TheCube. And then what I can come down here and do is edit that location. And let's just say that, well let's see here, Joe is going to be the administrator of that. So he's going to have access to manage that network. And then I have identified a couple access points here. I'm just going to drag and drop those in there. And these are now provisioned to TheCube. And then the last thing I'm going to do is, let's take a profile. So let's say, I have a configuration template, or whatever, maybe I'll just call you. You have a business profile and I'm going to deploy that to your location as well. Hit deploy. And basically, just that quickly what I've done is actually spun up a new customer. So you can imagine if you're a service provider in fact, then that means you're quicker to revenue. I'm actually able to turn on a customer and start charging him for Wi-Fi. >> John: Let's stay on this example with TheCube. Because I think this is really important to the dense qua problem. So we go to Moscone Center all the time. >> Bruce: Sure. >> And they have Wi-Fi. They have large crowds come in. And we're used to doing a live broadcast there. >> Right, sure. >> So I'd love to have my own Wi-Fi provisioned. Is that what happened there? Could they potentially say, you know, dedicate this access point or this subnet of the network to TheCube? >> They could, I mean it would be a variation on this, but absolutely. I mean one of the things that we do very well is taking a Wi-Fi device or an AP and segment it out for use cases like that. >> John: AP being access point. >> Access point, exactly. So in a convention environment like that, those are actually quite challenging 'cause you have so many people on the network. And what you need to do is carve out a resource that might be dedicated to that. So if you can't get good Wi-Fi-- >> John: Like good video, like we do video production-- >> We can do that. >> and so we want to-- >> Yeah. >> Actually prioritize the video traffic. >> Bruce: Absolutely. And we'll show that a little bit later in the demo. >> The recreational. >> Bruce: Yeah, you separate it out, right. And make sure that-- >> So continue, so that on-ramping there-- >> Bruce: Yeah, so basically this was just showing you how quickly you can create TheCube. This is the environment that I basically set up. It's got a couple APs. It's ready to go. I can now start. I can plug in those access points, and that side is up and running. So that's the provisioning aspect. The second aspect of Wi-Fi that we don't talk about is access to the network itself. This is actually a challenge with a lot of environments that's how do I get all of these people onto the network at the same time and do that very easily without IT getting a phone call saying, hey help me I dunno what the password is or -- >> John: Are we onboarding users and stuff like that? >> Bruce: Yeah, onboarding. Well we have a solution there, it's called EasyPass. And that solution allows you to create the portals that you see when you log into -- >> John: Like (mumbles) tollbooths? >> Bruce: Yeah, and it basically provides a very easy way of doing that. So let's just say this is TheCube guest, and I'll create a new portal. And this is a guest network right, so I know when I came in here today, I connected to the Wi-Fi network and I had to figure out how to do that, and what was the password. So let's just say we're creating a Wi-Fi network here. This just shows how easy and quick that interface is. I can customize the page. Let's select an image. We'll select a background image here. And then actually use Facebook and Google can be optionally used to log in. So just that quickly I've created a portal that says, this is what you're going to see when you log in. Now obviously if it's TheCube you put your own logos and data there. But the idea here is that a user can come in here and either register with his email or use Facebook or Google for example to get on the network. >> John: Is that (mumbles) thing in through the preexisting credentials? >> Bruce: This is used, in this case, yeah with Facebook you're using the credential that they have to get onto their system. And You're basically using that for Wi-Fi as well, so that the user name and password is now providing access. >> John: So it's seamless to the user what their choice is. >> Bruce: Yeah. And some people use Facebook, others will just connect with their email. >> John: Some people want to register, but most people just want to connect with either Twitter, LinkedIn, or whatever they have. >> Bruce: Yeah, yeah. And so this basically just shows how quick and easy it is to set up a guest page that gets somebody on the network. Very simple to use. And so IT administers love this because it simplifies their job significantly. The other thing I wanted to show here real quick is just the Microsoft Azure to Google integration. We actually have integration directly with these two ecosystems where if you already are in a Office 365 shop or a Google App shop as a lot of schools are, they can just use those credentials. The user logs in with their laptop, with their username, password, and it gets them access to Wi-Fi at the same time. Kill two birds with one stone. >> John: So if it's active directory, you got your Microsoft. If it's Google and what they use you can do that. >> Bruce: Right, yeah. So it's all in the cloud. So now this is again, moving everything into the cloud as opposed to using some local resource to do authentication and maintaining those resources. >> John: That seems to be the theme with Riverbed; simplify. >> Bruce: Right, absolutely. And this is the two big things here. We're scaling the Wi-Fi network to support these broad use cases. And then we're simplifying it with the tools to enable that to roll out very smoothly. >> Well all the research points to, that manual task that don't add value will be automated away. And those tasks will be shifted to more value activities. >> Right. >> Okay, so take us through monitoring. Now what happens when, you know I'm doing my Snapchats or Instagram, or my Facebook Lives, and you go, whoa, whoa, whoa. >> Bruce: Right. >> John: Or I'm interested in knowing if someone's downloading the latest movie on BitTorrent. >> Bruce: Yeah, yeah and that's very key. So if I go back to our solution here. The dashboard actually shows what's going on in the network. So this is actually a very flexible interface. You can move things around, create widgets, do different things. And in fact we have a map function where you would lay all the stuff out on a map and then I can actually show what the coverage is, for example that Wi-Fi and a floorplan. This happens to be my house. >> John: That's an RF metric? >> Bruce: That is actually RF coverage within this location of these access points. >> John: That is very cool. >> Bruce: Then I can jump in here and troubleshoot from there. But to your point in terms of what's going on -- >> John: So it shows overlaying clouds and channels and all those deep, deep configuration stuff. >> Bruce: All the information if you need to go there. >> John: And you just don't need to get involved in that. >> Bruce: Most of this stuff is automated. There's the auto button for a lot of this when you hook up the Wi-Fi the first time. You don't want to have to tweek all of those things. So we have the auto button that 90% of the users would use or more. And then if you needed to tune it we can go from there. But yeah, to your point in terms of application policies and controls. Here's an example of what we do here. For example, I can see what types of traffic is on this network here. So let's look at for example, YouTube. And we see that there's actually a couple users here that are using a lot of YouTube traffic. I can click on any of these applications and see what the amount of traffic is associated with that. But what's more interesting then is doing something about it. So what we have is a policy engine that recognizes 1,600 different applications and allows me to create policies on them. I can create rules and say, okay let's look at YouTube specifically, which is a streaming media application. And you can see we have hundreds in here, in fact 1,600 total. And I can block YouTube if I so desire from the network. Or maybe I allow it in there, but I limit that traffic per user to say 500 K or something like that so they maybe can't watch a 4 K video or something like that. So Enterprise is-- >> John: Make it crawl for them. >> Bruce: Yeah, you can do it, but you can't overload the network. So Enterprise is hospitals. You know schools love this because they can get that granular control of the network. And maybe this happens to be instead of Enterprise that's using a database, maybe they're an Oracle shop, and so they want to raise the quality of service on that and put that high priority. So you could do that just the same. >> John: And so whatever the priority is, they can get bandwidth through it. So if it's live gaming, and you want to have that game be, that's what I want. >> Bruce: Exactly. >> John: Or minimize it. >> Bruce: So this really, what this map ends up doing is mapping the wireless to the business needs of the organization that's deploying it. >> John: So the optimization of the network, you can look at much more clearly with the visualization, and make decisions. On the network map there with the RF. Is that for placement of access points? Or is that more for understanding propagation or -- >> Bruce: It's, yeah we have a separate design tool that allows you to design those heat maps. And then when you actually have a live network what you were looking at was actually the coverage estimation based on what's actually deployed. >> John: So it's kind of -- >> Bruce: So if an AP goes down, it turns red and then you'll see a hole in your coverage and you'll know that you have a problem that you have to go and solve. >> Okay, great. So it's (mumbles) gives you a hand. >> Yeah. >> Okay, analytics. What other analytics do you have in the demo that you could share? >> Bruce: Right, so analytics is an interesting one. We have a lot of data that we pull into the network from the Wi-Fi. So if you think about it, we know who is on the network. We know what they're doing. What applications they're going to. We know where they are, 'cause we actually calculate the location of those users. And that information is all pulled into this central location here. So if I pull in a couple of these analytics charts you actually see now what is going on in that location over time. So here we have users and how long they're actually in the network. >> John: Can you see the URL path they're using? >> Bruce: That's in the application portion. This is just kind of showing bulk, like how many users are showing in the network and how long are they there. And then how many are there, and how many are actually repeat or new. So a retail customer may be interested that, if it's like I'm getting 40% existing customers coming back, but maybe there's 60% on a given day. And then that can change over time depending on location. So the bottom line is Wi-Fi is turning, for us, into a big data challenge or solution to where I can take all that data on who, what, where, why that they're doing and then turn that into business intelligence that the retailer, that's a big one, can use for making more intelligent decisions about how they run their business. >> Okay, so bottom line for the folks watching, with respect to wireless; what's the future state that they need to be thinking about in terms of planning for Wi-Fi and to experience the future of networking by extending SD-WAN to the wireless LAN? >> Right, so there's a lot of things to consider when you look at Wi-Fi. What you're doing today is probably not going to be the same as what you do next year, and certainly not five years from now. So this is actually a big challenge for a lot of our customers to kind of get that future view of what's going to happen, because they're making a purchase decision today that's going to last them for awhile. So what we look at is solving the problems that those users might run into, which can be scale, you might be using and seeing double or triple the number of users in traffic in the next few years, so you have to solve that. You have to solve the security problems, which we didn't talk about too much today, but EasyPass is one of the solutions for that. I want to ensure those users can get on, but make sure that they're secure, my corporate data is going to be protected. And then finally the simplicity of doing that. So I know Wi-Fi is going to change. I know the network requirements are going to change. How can I simply go into an interface, though this cloud management solution we provide and make those changes that are needed and adapt to that dynamic that we're talking about. And then all of that then folds into the broader picture of the SD-WAN story that we talk about with Riverbed, where now I can do some of those things across the LAN and WAN holistically through a common control point. >> And the common control point is key because the users don't view things as LAN and WAN. They just want their stuff. >> Bruce: Yeah, right. >> Wherever they are. >> Yeah, they don't care. So they might be connected into the Wi-Fi, so that's pretty visible, but in the end the Wi-Fi could work fine, but if that WAN connection is down or compromised, or anywhere in between the data center, all these things have to be working. >> And the tools to make the integration easier, whether it's Microsoft 365, and Google, On-Premise or GoogleLogin or Facebook. >> Right, right, all those ecosystems. I mean this is the big part of what we're trying to do is tap into those systems that everybody is using anyway and make it all seamless. >> John: And easy. >> So everyone knows how to log into their Google or Facebook account, so now let's just make that part of the Wi-Fi experience. >> And security's all solid? >> Yeah, security is solid if you use it. And that's the big thing about Wi-Fi is there's a lot of open guest network still out there. And little by little you're seeing those become secure, but what tends to happen is that complexity and security are kind of at odds with each other. The more secure you make a network, the more complex. >> John: And here you're making it easier. >> That's why EasyPass and the name, that's what we do to make that as simple as possible because security is very important. >> Bruce Miller: Extending the SD-WAN to the Wireless LAN in our segment experiencing the future of networking. Thanks so much for sharing. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (techno music)