>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE coming to you from our Palo Alto studios for a CUBE Conversation. We're talking about the Citrix Workspace Summit. It happened earlier today. And we've got one of the experts in the field, CUBE alumni and always a really fun guest to have on. Let's give a welcome to Tamara McCleary. She's coming to us from Colorado. She's the CEO of Thulium but you know her from social media and seeing her at all the conferences and speaking. And Tamara, it's great to see you again >> Jeff, it's so good to be here. Hey, next best thing to being in person, right? >> Absolutely. I mean, there is some good stuff. Neither of us had to get on an airplane today and we were able just to connect via the magic of the internet, which I think people forget how magic it truly is. So I looked up, we last spoke, it was mid-April. We were about a month into this thing after the kind of shutdown. And really the topic there was about this light switch moment on the work from home front. Now we're seven months into this, eight months into this, and clearly it's not going away anytime soon. And even when it does, it's not going to go back exactly to the way it was. So first off, how are you doing? 'Cause I know you spend a lot of time at conferences and traveling all over the world, so your life's been changed quite a bit. And then two, just your kind of perspective as we've moved from the light switch moment to the, that this is the new normal and will be the new normal going forward. Maybe not exactly how it is today, but we're not going back to the way that it was before. >> You couldn't be more spot on, Jeff. In fact, when you said April, to me, it almost feels like not seven months. It feels much longer ago. And since the last time I got on an airplane was the end of February, and that was a huge disruption to me in my life. I had always been in three, four cities a week, every week, and haven't traveled on an airplane since February. So the world is different, and it has shifted, and there's no going back. We can't step in the river twice and hit that same spot. I totally messed up that quote, but that's me. You're used to that already. >> Jeff: Exactly. >> But some things don't change. But I think when we look at work, and what we were talking about back in April is that now we're looking at the potential for kind of a hybrid approach, whether we're talking about work or even kids, some kids going back to school, there's a hybrid approach. And with that comes its own set of complexities that we have to consider. So not only has the culture shifted into a place where you have your workforce who has gotten used to working remotely, and there's a lot of things with working remotely that we didn't have when office was the centrical focus for the workplace. So there's a lot of flexibility when you work from home. And I think one of the interesting things with the Citrix Workspace Summit was when CEO David Henshall talked about how it's the people, right? So it's our workforce, our employees who are our most valuable, but also our most costly assets. So we have to make sure that the employee experience is one that is pleasing and helps us to have not only talent acquisition, but also talent retention in a really dynamic, competitive atmosphere. And I'm sure I just posed this question so we could go a million different places with this. Where do you want to go with it, Jeff? >> Well, I was going to say, and of course we can go forever, and we don't have forever, so at some point we'll have to stop talking at the end of this interview. But I just love having you on. And what I want to drill in is as we've talked about the new way to work for a very, very long time. This is not a new topic. And we've had remote work tools and we've had VPNs and we've had mobile phones now since 2007, but we didn't have this forcing function, and I think that's what's really different here is that now it wasn't a choice anymore. There was no more planning and talking about it and maybe or maybe not. Work from home was kind of a first-class citizen in terms of priority. COVID changed all that dramatically overnight. And it's driven home this other kind of concept which we talk a lot about generically in terms of the customer experience as they interact with our applications, which is the way that now they actually interact with the company. And we've talked a little bit about new way to work, but now it's really driven to the forefront, because as you said, there's a lot of benefits from working from home. You could eat dinner with your family, maybe can pick up a few more of the kids' activities, whether it's a sports game in the middle of the afternoon or something in the evening, but there's also a lot of stress. There's a lot of kind of this always on and this constant notifications, whether it's coming from email or text or Slack or Teams or Asana or whatever. So refocusing on the employee experience and elevating that up into a much more important thing, as you said, for both wellness and employee satisfaction, but also retention and getting new employees. It's really changed the priority of that whole set of, kind of point of view around the employee experience that wasn't there kind of pre-COVID. >> Absolutely. And I think you just tapped onto something that I think affects all of us who are juggling these multifaceted lives, and that is the constant interruption and distraction, and that costs money. And I think about that as the CEO of our organization is that how many of these distractions could be avoided to create efficiency and productivity. It also creates happiness for the individual. I don't think anybody likes to be constantly distracted, but when you have a bunch of different applications and you don't have them in one accessible place and you're constantly having to flip between these applications, it can cause a lot of friction and frustration. And I think genuinely that was my very first introduction to Citrix was the ability to really streamline and have everything in one place on a beautiful dashboard that was personalized to the individual. Not everybody in the organization needs to have all the applications, right? Some of your employees only need a few, and it just depends on who they are and what they're doing within the organization. And so I think decreasing that friction, making it easier for people, and certainly ensuring not only a frictionless experience at home but also ensuring security is huge. I mean, how many times have we talked about cybersecurity is not a bolt on afterwards. It has to be all the way up through the stack. And certainly we did have an increased threat landscape with work from home situations because there were all these security breaches and issues and vulnerabilities. So I know we're not talking security today, but I'm wild about it. But I think that all of these things, what I like about what Citrix is doing, and I enjoy the Summit, is the fact that they're blending everything into a single solution so that it just gets done. Work gets done from wherever you are, whether you're at home, you're in office, or in your car, work gets done. >> And not only work but I thought the theme that's interesting that came out in David's keynote is our best work. It's good work and high-value work. And there's really kind of two aspects of that. One, as you just said, is please help me with the distractions and use machine learning and artificial intelligence and this unified platform to decide whether I should or should not be distracted. Also help me prioritize what I should be working on kind of right now, which, again, a great opportunity for AI and ML to elevate that which is most important to the top of my inbox. But even more in one of the keynotes was integrating the concept of wellness, and not just wellness in the HR manual at the back after vision and dental and getting your health checks, but wellness even where the application suggests that you take a two-hour window in this particular period of time to be thoughtful and do some deep thinking. And someone mentioned the people we talk about in automation and getting rid of drudgery and errors and all the bad stuff that comes from doing crappy work, not only is it not fun, but super error prone. This is a really different to use technology to help the employee, as you said, not only just get work done, but get good work done, get high-value work done, prioritize good stuff, and not just deal with the incessant henpecking that is the notification world that it's really easy to fall into if you don't turn some of that stuff off or at least tone them down a little bit. >> That's so true. I don't know if you saw this, but there a study by Stanford of, I think it was 16,000 workers, and over a nine-month period, they did this study, and it was a study looking at work from home and whether productivity was increased. And every, 'cause at first you remember what it was, Jeff. I mean, in the old regime, we would thought, oh dear, we don't want a remote workforce because everybody's going to be hanging out in their pajamas and screwing around and not doing work. And that's not true. What ends up happening is that this study showed that productivity increased by 13%. And, I mean, that's huge, right? So there was a huge bump in performance. And in this particular study, the variables that they cited was perhaps that they had a quieter workspace. I mean, you're not getting barraged by all the endless meetings, unless you have endless Zoom meetings, but that's a whole nother conversation. But you're having more time to focus and flexibility on when you work, which also increases focus. But I thought what you mentioned, the wellness piece was important, because then if you look at other studies, there was a Forbes article that cited that the average worker starts at 8:32 a.m. or something like that and works until 5:38 p.m. And I think the days of the week that were the most productive were Tuesday, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. But this was interesting, I thought. Telephone calls were up by 230%, so the calls that employees were making, and CRM activity was up by 176% and email up by 57% and chats up by 9%. So what we're seeing is that people are trying to find creative ways to remain connected and communicate, but in different ways. And I think that's where the wellness piece comes in and kind of what you were saying with that. I think it's a microapp that Citrix has on their Workspace, their workspace dashboard that pops up a reminder and says, hey, you think you should take a break or get up from your desk. But I think that what's nice about that is it's easy to get sucked into your computer all day. I'm guilty. I will definitely say I can start off pretty darn early in the morning or usually around by five and go till late at night. But, and it's all in front of the computer screen. So maybe I need that Citrix workspace solution to tap me on the shoulder and tell me to go take a meditation break. >> At least one of those watches that'll tell you to get up and twist around. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. They had Satya Nadella on, and Satya is a phenomenal executive, been super successful turning that big, very large boat, Microsoft, into really a cloud company and a SaaS company, and nothing but great success. Always happy to hear him. He had some interesting comments I want to run by you. One of them he said is we were dogmatic about work before, but don't replace what we were with just a new dogma. And what he really highlighted, A, obviously without the technology platform and cloud and all these tools that we have in place, this couldn't have happened. But more importantly, he said it really highlights the need for flexibility and resiliency, and to really, again, kind of elevate those as the first class citizens as to what you should be optimizing for. And really the highlight within this sudden shift with COVID that if you've got those capabilities, you're going to be successful, and if you don't, you're in real trouble >> I'm glad you brought Satya up, because he also said something really cool that I think is true, and that is we are running right now, currently we are running a global scale experiment. Do you remember him saying that? >> Yeah. >> And it's so true. I think right now the social scientists are going wild because finally they've got their captive collection of their study, their guinea pigs. But the other thing he was saying, too, is that we're going to be harnessing all these technologies to be able to re-skill and up-skill. And how long have we been talking about this, Jeff, with the future of work, that it will be a re-skilling and up-skilling of the workforce. He even mentioned holographic technology. He didn't go into it, but just the mention of it got me thinking about how we are currently using some of those nascent technologies to be able to up-skill and re-skill our workforces and also protect a workforce that doesn't necessarily need to be on scene on the edge of it all. And then he gave an example of an engineer being able to communicate with a first-line worker without having to be actually in the physical presence. And so I think this crucible that we're in called a global pandemic, forcing our hand, really, to do all the things that we've been talking about at all these conferences that we've been to, for me, maybe the past two decades, is that it's show, don't tell. So we're not talking about it anymore. We actually have to do it. And another thing that Satya said was that nine to five is definitely not true anymore with work. It's flexibility. And it's really... He also mentioned this EEG study into meeting fatigue. >> Jeff: Yes. >> I thought it was pretty wild. An EEG study into meeting fatigue. And I bet even without reading that study, all of us who are on video conferencing systems can probably tell what the outcome of that was. But concentration wanes very quickly. In fact, I think in that study it was after 20 minutes. But, so kudos to Citrix for putting on their summits, because did you notice for once we had the enjoyment of all these just really contents, deliciously packed segments that were short. >> Jeff: Right. >> Whereas at live events, they went on way too long. I mean, even customer stories went on way too long. And I really love the staccato nature of these customer stories and partnerships and what was working, and I just thought that they did a really nice job, and it was interesting because it met perfectly with staying underneath that 20-minute window before attention wanes. >> Right, right. And they even broke it up into three conferences, right? It was Citrix Synergy before. >> Right. >> Now it's workspaces, it's cloud, and then the third one will be security. But I want to double down on another concept. We talked about it last time with you and with Amy about measuring work and about kind of old work paradigms in terms of measuring performance that were really based more on activity than output. And this concept that work is an output, not a place. And it kind of makes you think of talking about cloud and a cloud-centric way of thinking about things. It's not necessarily the delivery method. It's about adopting quick change and rapid pace and having everything available that you need anywhere you are at the same time. So it seems strange to me that it took this to drive people to figure out that they should be measuring output and not activity. And were some early applications that came out when this all went down that are going to report back as to how often are you looking at your Zoom calls and how often are you sitting in front of your desk and all this silly stuff that just, again, misses the point. And I think this whole employee experience is, as you said, make 'em happy, make 'em feel fulfilled. They want to do meaningful work. They want to do high-value work. They just don't want to be an integration machine between the email system and the accounts receivable system and the accounts payable system. There's so much of an opportunity to get more value from the people, which, oh, by the way, makes for happier people. So do you think finally we're at a point where we can start getting away from just measuring activity unless that's your job to put a widget on a screw and really focus on output and high-value output and innovative output and deep thinking output versus just checking another box and passing the paper down the line? >> You know, Jeff, that reminds me of what Erica Volini, I think she's global human capital practice at Deloitte. I really loved her presentation. I also like the fact that I felt like she was speaking from her home, and she mentioned she's a new mom, and so there was this warmth and connection there which also I think is something really that we don't think about being, but it is a gift since we've all had to work from home is being able to see kind of executive individuals in a regular environment, and it humanizes it all, right? She said something really interesting in her talk. She was talking about rearchitecting the future of work, and she was talking about essentially, the premise was that human beings need, crave, have to have work that's meaningful and real. And part of this whole experience piece, part of this removing the friction from the experience of the employee and providing opportunities, stimulating growth opportunities for employees to give them that sense of meaning. But also she talked about the relationships. I mean, work is a huge part of the relationships in our life. And so this meaningful relationships and connections and in her architecting the work of the future, it's harnessing technology in service to humans to do a better job. And I think the word she used was augmentation, right? So the augmentation piece would be as we think about reinventing or re-imagining or re-architecting, we look at what's going to happen when we have the human working with the machine, but the machine in service to augmenting that human being to do, potential is what she was talking about, to really reach their potential. And so it's not about being replaced by technology. It's not being replaced by artificial intelligence, with machine learning algorithms. It's actually working in tandem so that technology potentiates the human that is using the technology. And I think that was a really good way of putting it. >> Right, right. I mean, we talk, it's one of our taglines, right? To separate the signal from the noise. And the problem is with so many systems now, and I forget, you may know off the top of your head, the average number of applications that people have to interact with every day to get their job done. >> Too many. >> Too many. >> Too many. >> It's a lot. So, so there is a lot of noise, but there's also some signal. And so if you're not paying attention, you can miss the signal that might be super, super important because you're overwhelmed by the noise. And so I think it is a real interesting challenge. It's a technology challenge to apply the machine learning and artificial intelligence, to sort through the total flow, to be able to prioritize and separate the signal from the noise to make sure we're working on the stuff that we should be working on. And I think it's a growing challenge as we just seem to always be adding new applications and adding new notifications and adding new systems that we have to interact with versus taking them away. So Citrix has this approach where we're just going to bring it all in together under one place. And so whether it's your Salesforce notification or your Slack notification or Zoom meeting, whatever, to have it orchestrated as a single place so I don't have 18 tabs, 14 browsers, and two laptops running just to get my day job done. >> You're going to make me self-conscious of all the tabs I have right now. Thanks a lot, Jeff. But, it's kind of, I like hearing stories, right? I think stories communicate to me kind of these practical applications. And I think Citrix did a brilliant job in the Workspace Summit of highlighting some of these customer stories that were really inspiring during the pandemic. One of 'em was City National Bank and Ariel Carrion? This is a test of my memory. He's the CTO, right, of City National Bank. And he's talking about that they had already had a partial migration to the cloud prior to the pandemic. So obviously there was an advantage for those organizations that already had their toe in the water. So, but when the pandemic hit, then it really catalyzed that movement all the way into the cloud and essentially creating a digital bank. And what was really interesting to me is that they funded 9600 loans and taking on new clients during that time of transformation to a digital bank. And one of the coolest things that he said to me was that in a regular program, it would've taken, mind you, get this. It would've taken 14 years, 14 years to accomplish what they did in three months. >> That's a long time. >> I was blown away, right? Just to me, that speaks a lot, because what we're talking about here is their clients are small business, and who do you think was impacted most during the pandemic? Small business. So the ability to get loans was critically important to the survival of a lot of companies. And the same story they had with eBay and David Lessor was talking, he's a senior manager in the office of the CIO, I think I remember. And he was talking about how obviously eBay is a digital platform, right? But if you think about the pandemic when we were all had these shelter in place orders, lots of people were able to still make money and earn a living because they were able to do business on eBay. And both eBay and City National Bank are obviously customers of Citrix. But I just found this to be really inspiring, because for eBay pre-pandemic, it was like, I don't know. I think they said they had 11,000 connected users prior to the pandemic, and a lot of those were in physical call centers. >> Jeff: Right. >> And then post-pandemic, I think he was reaching, saying end of Q4 was going to be something like 14,000 connected users. That's huge from 11 to 14. >> Yeah. >> And again, to your point, it's kind of forcing our hand into really not only pivoting, but increasing our speed in this ever-changing dynamic environment. >> Right. >> You know, one of the other things that came up, before I let you go, that it's always nice to have frameworks. Sometimes it just helps us organize our thoughts and it's kind of a mental cheat sheet. And they talked about the four Cs, connectivity, content, collaboration, and culture. And I would have to say they're in inverse order of how I would potentially have prioritized them. But I just wanted to zero in on the culture piece, 'cause I don't think people focus enough on culture. And one of the things I think we talked about in April, and I've certainly talked about a number of times going through this thing in leadership in these crazy times is that the frequency and the type and the topics in communication within your internal world have gone up dramatically. I think we had the, we had a CMO on the other day, and she said internal comms, this is a big company, prior to COVID was important, but not that important within the list of the CMO's activity. But then once this thing hit, right, suddenly internal communications, again, in terms of frequency and the types of topics you're talking about and the forums that you talk about and the actual vehicles in which you talk about, whether it's a all hands Zoom call or it's more frequent one-on-ones with your manager, really, really increase the importance of culture, and then I think probably is going to show over time the people that have it right, getting some separation distance from the people that got it wrong. I wonder if you could just talk about, 'cause you're a big culture person and you know how important the people part of the whole thing is. >> Yeah, culture drives everything. You're right. And that was Citrix's CIO who gave those four Cs, I think, Meerah Rajavel. >> Yeah, yeah. >> She gave those four Cs. And you couldn't be, you couldn't have tapped into something that I think is the soft underbelly of the organization, which is what is the culture. And anyone who's worked in an organization with a sick culture knows that it's just, it's cancerous, right? It grows and it causes decay. And I don't care how much innovation you have. If the culture is sick, you just, you're going to lose your best people. It's hard to work in a sick culture. And so I think what we had to do is when we all started working remotely, that was a culture shift, because we were siloed off of it. We weren't actually hanging out in physical space. Some of the things that we enjoyed about meeting with other human beings physically changed. And so it really behooved organizations to take a look at how they were going to foster culture digitally, how they were going to create that sense of bonding between not only those within your departmental area, but cross over into other areas. And I think that creating that culture that says I don't have to be in the exact same physical space, but we can still connect. I mean, you and I are doing this. We're not in the same physical space. >> Jeff: Right. >> But I'm still going to feel like we met today. >> Jeff: Right. >> You can create that for your employees. And it also means that we learned that we don't have to be in that same physical space, right? And I thought that was a really interesting position when Hayden Brown, the CEO of Upwork, was talking at the summit and saying that even when we look at creating culture with employees who aren't necessarily, maybe it's a workforce from all over the world that you're using, a remote workforce. And when you're using things like employees, if you've got work to do and you can find a really good talent and you can grab them for what it is that you need, you're actually increasing your ability to be able to deliver on things versus having to worry about whether you have that person in house, but you still can create that culture where everyone is inclusive, where someone can be in Australia and someone's in San Francisco and someone's in the UK, and you still have to create a cohesive, inclusive culture. And it matters not anymore whether or not you are a full-time employee or if you're a contract worker. I think in today's space, and certainly in those future of work conversations, it's more about, to the very first thing you said at the beginning, it's more about output. How's that for tying it back up again? >> Jeff: Yeah, very good. >> And that was totally unplanned. But it is about output, and that's going to be the future of work culture. It's not going to be the title that you have, whether or not you're a full-time employee or a part-time employee or a contract worker. It's going to be who are you meeting with? Who are you having these digital interfaces with and Slacking with or using any sort of platform application that you want to use. It's remaining in touch and in communication, and no longer is it about a physical space. It's a digital space. >> Right, right. All right, well, I'm going to give you the last word. You are a super positive person, and there's reasons, and for people that haven't watched your TED Talk, they should. I think it's super impactful and it really changed the way I look at you. So of all the negatives, wrap us up with some positives that you see as we come out of COVID that going through this experience will make in our lives, both our work lives as well as our personal lives. >> Well, since you're going to allow me to go deep here, I would say one of the things that COVID has brought us is pause. It caused us to go in. And with any dark night of the soul, we have to wrestle with the things that are real for us, and the things that fall away are those that were false, false perceptions, false ideas, illusions of even thinking who we are, what we're doing. And we had to come home to ourselves. And I think one of the things that COVID gave us through uncertainty was finding a center in that uncertainty. And maybe we got to know our beloveds a bit more. Maybe we got to know our kids a bit more, even if they drive us crazy sometimes. But in the end, I think maybe we all got to know ourselves a little bit more. And for that, I think we can harness those seeds of wisdom and make better choices in the future to co-create together a future that we are all pleased to wake up in, one that is fair, one that is equal, one that is inclusive, and one that we can be proud to have contributed to. And that's what I hope we've taken from this extremely hard time. >> Well, Tamara, thanks for sharing your wisdom with us. Really appreciate it. And great to see ya. >> Good to see you, too, thank you. >> All right, she's Tamara, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (bright music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Dell Technologies. World Digital Experience Brought to you by Dell Technologies. Hey, welcome back already, Jeffrey. Here with the Q. Come to you from our Palo Alto studio with our ongoing coverage of Del Tech World 2020. The digital experience Let's jump into a really excited to have our next guest CIA Sam Bird, the president of the Client Solutions Group for Dell. Sam, where you joining us from today? >>Hey, I am joining you live from Austin, Texas. Jeff looks beautiful. All weather? Yeah, its's turning really nice. Uh, nice time to be here in Austin, right? So, >>Sam, let's jump into it. I mean, you, you cover, you know, kind of the heart of what Dell started with which was which was PCs. And, you know, it's funny. A couple days ago, Michael tweeted because he likes to tweet, which is fun. An article that said that the PC officially died today. It's a reference back to an article I had to look at the January 26 2010. Officially, the PC officially died today. >>That >>is so bizarre, and that is not in fact, not true, you guys. We're seeing unprecedented demand, so I wonder if it is You Look back at that. And I'm sure you saw Michaels tweet. What kind of goes through your head? Because we're in a very different space than we were 10 years ago. >>Yeah, I think the world's changed a lot, Jeff from 10 years ago. I got to say, uh, the PC died 10 years ago. It feels pretty good being being dead for 10 years. So I think we actually saw a, you know, still alive and very vibrant. PC. So you think about everything that's happened with Cove it We have seen the PC and people using technology to stay connected, whether it's, you know, working in their business, learning from home, staying connected with other family members. So we'd like to talk about it Is the renaissance of the PC. It kind of this rebirth reemergence of this really good friend that you had has become really core toe how we're getting stuff done in the world today, and we've stayed bullish about the opportunity around the PC. Michaels had that view from, you know, when he started this company, and we've since expanded to many other areas beyond selling PCs. But we continue to be really committed to the value of that technology in people's hands, >>right? So just in defense of the of the article, it was written on the launch of the iPad right, which was a new a new form factor. And, you know, we've seen this proliferation of form factors both within PCs and mobile phones, and you know, the sizes of screens getting bigger and the size of green getting smaller and surface all kinds of different things. So I wonder if you could share, you know, kind of your perspective in, you know, kind of the opportunity that opens up when people are looking for different types of form factors. And then, more importantly, I think now it's horses for courses. So when I'm sitting at my desk, you know, I haven't a big giant XPS with all the ram and GPU and stuff Aiken stuff into it. If I'm going to the airport with a long flight, I want something small and light and easy to carry and what's interesting, I think, with cloud it enables you now to basically have the form factor that you need where you need it for the types of work that you're trying to get done. >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. You know, if you if you take that 10 years ago, article to today we have had an enormous amount of innovation in the industry that's made the device is exciting and appealing for how people wanna want to operate. So, you know, we've seen Jeff a shift towards more mobile form factors with cove in. So, um, a commercial space that used to be maybe half desktops, half notebooks is now in the 70% range. More mobile form factors which reflects how people want to use them. You know, they're sitting at home, they need that device to be portable. They wanna go between rooms and home. That's the other thing that we found in some of our, you know, research and work on the spaces. You know, people might want to sit at the kitchen table in the morning in the afternoon. Maybe they're outside. They might have their kids do in school from home and have to be around them part of the day, so they still need a mobile kind of form factor, but it's plugged in. I want full power to run my applications. And, like you said, we will get back to a world with travel and people being mobile. And then you need to dial in the right form factor that has maybe a smaller screen, more portable device. So one of the things that's kept this business vibrant, you know, for the past 10 years and right now is a bigger screen experience is really, really valuable. A keyboard and multiple ways of in putting into devices are valuable, so there's core. Things are great. And then we've got systems that are set up for how people want to use them. You know, we still have designers sitting at home using big desktop workstations because the most powerful thing there times really valuable. There's a right system for how you want to use technology, and I think that that's attendant, you know, an approach we take in our business, and that's what we see in the industry. I think that's what's helped keep it very vibrant and alive. >>I love it, I love it. It is truly that work from anywhere and anywhere as you just defined, could be a whole bunch of things, and it doesn't even mean just at home or just at the coffee shop. That's really interesting. Is you even change locations where you're working within within the home. That really supports that. So, >>you >>know, Cove, it hits light switch moment. Everybody's gotta work from home. So huge, huge pressure there. And now, as you said, you know, we're seven months into it. Still gonna be going on for a little bit while a little while before people go back. Huge, huge boost to your guys business. I'm curious if you can share some thoughts in terms of, you know, now, I I need to kind of project a little bit of that office back to the work from anywhere situation. And, you know, you guys are that you're kind of that edge device that ultimately connects back to the mother ship. >>Yeah, I think it's and that's where we've seen people realized. It's a really valuable device that helps keep them, you know, productive and connected. Um, we have seen it's very interesting of it used to be, you know, pre co vid for Most people work with the location, you know, Post Cove. It it's something you do, and suddenly it's very location agnostic, and we see the world operating that way in the future Jeff of these devices at the edge or need gonna be working in a world where sometimes it makes sense to be in an office. Maybe there's collaboration, other things you need to dio. But we're going to see people working from home working from a coffee shop, working from, you know, anywhere in the world, and we're gonna need to stay connected. In that way, it's enabling a great set of talent. It's enabling people to be where they want, you know, get done what they need to do in their personal lives and then be contributing in a great way, thio to a business. So I think technology plays a huge role in going and getting that done. And to me, the world doesn't just return back to a you know, pre cove in space. But we're now in this. We've learned we can operate in this kind of multi modality world where technology can help keep us connected, collaborating, getting stuff done in some cases more productive than ever before, and it's kind of unleashed this new wave of thinking. I think we will continue to see great creativity on stuff we're putting in our devices to enable that, you know, software applications approaches that are gonna enable that that will really take us forward as we look at the future. >>You know, I'm just curious if you could share, uh, you know, kind of Ah, general breakdown by kind of form factor. What do you see between kind of, you know, I don't know if you split high end desktops and low on desktops and then, you know, kind of laptops and Chromebooks, what's kind of the high level kind of breakdown, and how's that? Is it change significantly over the last several years? And you you just mentioned a boost. You know, during the time of Cove in >>Yeah, we've seen a shift towards notebooks. Now you know much Is the article you you pulled up from 10 years ago? I think the death, the death of the desktop has also been much exaggerated. So we're Maurin, a mode of 70% of the systems that were selling our notebooks 70 to 80% range. It's a little higher, and consumer Andi, that's, you know, 20 points up in the commercial space. So we're seeing, you know, people have valued that kind of portability of systems. You know that, said is we talk through some of the ways people use it. There are great uses for desktops, for people are in the same place where I need ultimate ultimate power and then a z your home. We've seen a little more shift Teoh a suddenly you know, portability. That was really valuable because you had Salesforce's engineers on the road all the time. And I really wanted something that, you know, lasted had great battery life and was really easy to carry around. Suddenly we're in a world plugged in at home like we look at our devices, we've gone. Now more than half of our laptops are basically on is we have intelligence built into our systems. That tunes how battery management is done. Empower Management's done. More than half those systems are now in a mode of all, basically, always on a C. So people are, you know, plugged in all the time. They would like a little more powerful system. So whether they're running, zoom or teams or some other app. Multitasking. It's like there's a, you know, different requirements there. I think that changes Azzawi go forward and we get back to, you know, the notebook. It's like the ultimate design people want is a great big screen. That's super light, and the battery lasts forever. And I'm like that keeps our engineers and designers working every day because that's a really hard, complex thing to solve. And, you know, we're we continue to work and and and push that next forward. Now it's a little more biased to power. Sitting on a desk. We will be back in a world where it's gonna be, Yeah, I want power to sit on the desk, be on a video conference, get work done. But I also need to be able to take that on the road with >>Yeah, I just think, you know, because of the proliferation of online applications, right? And you know so much of our work day no pun intended, you know, is done in all these different cloud based applications, whether its sales force or slack or asana or whether we're, you know, working in in, uh, social media applications or even are you know kind of cloud enabled local applications. You know, a lot of times I find you don't have to carry your device right. E can lead the one device of one location, one of the other. I know it's almost like you pick up exactly where you were when you log back into chrome or you log back into whatever your browser is. If you've got it all configured, you know you don't even need to carry. A lot of times I find it's it's it's really nice. And if I have to check a message on the phone, No, it's a very different way of working, and, uh, I think it's really pretty slick. I do want to get into productivity, which you've talked about a lot. You know, I've always said the best productivity investment anybody could make is a second screen on the desktop. I mean, it's so much more productive to have a second screen the third screen. You go to places like Wall Street and the NASDAQ floor, where time matters and productivity matters, their screens all over the place and you guys are doing a ton of fun stuff with screens. Big giant curve things, and you made an interesting observation in other interviews that now people are consuming their entertainment content via those screens, whether it's an over the top service with Netflix or or whatever. So this this kind of shift to, you know, kind of mawr content consumption as this blend between kind of what you do in your personal life and what you do in your work life, both in terms of time and content, you know, continue to mix so lot of exciting stuff happening in big, beautiful screens. >>Yeah, totally agree, Jeff. And we see you know we've looked at productivity and see boosts with a bigger screen around your system. Same thing with exactly as you describe putting two screens around the system or go to a trading floor and their screens everywhere because it's about the you know, it's about the content that you can consume and the, um, you know, the work that you go get done, and it's a lot more efficient to be able to have multiple screens. Whether it's looking at a presentation and doing a call, you know, a video call for work on on one screen or either side of Ah, screen. And we're seeing people build out that, you know, their home office, their work office. I think that's to me. The, you know, the exciting piece of you think about how technology is arming people to get their job done. Like you can't imagine if you had all the technology taken away from you. You're like, Okay, what am I gonna What am I go do? Like if the internet goes down, I don't quite know how to get go. Be productive here. You know, I go try to find someone who has a landline phone on the block and call someone up. Andi have actually have a discussion, but, like, I'm not gonna build out a work, you know, a workspace. I've gotta build out a home space companies that are pretty progressive, the ones that are investing Maurin technology for their employees. We're seeing them be ah, lot more successful in this covert air, which equals go get on the right tools the screen around the system, You know, the extra devices. So it's like, Hey, my postures. Great. I can actually go get work done. And I'm in a nice space. Same thing back in the office. We've built stuff. We're building low blue light technology into our commercial PCs. We put that on our high end consumer PC. So you know, now you can walk into your home office early in the morning. You can goto late at night. It will have you all tune so your body is ready to go to sleep. You know, you don't even have toe. I don't have to talk to your family at all during the day. You could just work all the time from your home office. But I think little pieces like that are going. How do we put technology in this world where it's, like, very easy toe walk in and out of your you know, your office and being tuned on. But, hey, I need to go to sleep or I need to be chilling out after that and get the right technology and capabilities that let people be successful. So I think it's pretty exciting. Everything we've been able to dio, >>right? So I want to shift gears a little bit. Um, talk about user interface. What? One of the reason of this article that we keep referencing 10 years ago was the launch of the iPad, right? And in the launch pad or the iPad didn't have, Ah, traditional keyboard. Um, but I think people found out that not having a traditional keyboard, depending on the type of your work you're doing is a little bit of an inhibitor to your productivity. But it really begs the question as we enter this new world of different types of interaction with these devices and the increased use of voice, whether it's with Siri or or Okay, Google, um, >>we've >>had, you know, regulations on the A d a. In terms of access to websites and this and that. Aziz, you kind of look into the future of of human interaction with these devices as you get more and more horsepower toe work with on the GPU and the CPU and you know, can free up more. Resource is to this type of activity. I know you can't share anything too far down the road. But what? How do you see kind of the future evolving to get beyond this quality keyboard that was designed to slow people down because types were, too. I'm still waiting for the more efficient keyboard option to be to be available. But what's the future of human interaction with these things? To take the the degree of efficiency up another level? >>Hey, Jeff, we will do a custom keyboard for you. So you get me your you get me your high speed layout, we'll get you get you one of those. Um, you know, we do see it is pretty remarkable how long the keyboards been around and we still see it's It's also remarkable to me how powerful that is as a input device for, you know, for some tasks in the world. So what we see is it's not gonna be what replaces the keyboard. And there's one way of going and doing things. But all this compute the sensors that capability on the systems are just gonna allow people to operate the way that they want to operate. So you look at a PC today. It still has this great keyboard. It still has a laptop form factor that has, you know, been there for It's probably 25 years or so. It's actually pretty nice because it fits on your lap. It balances really well on the coffee table. Um, it's, you know, We've looked at so many different form factors, and it actually is a stayed around for a good reason because it it's pretty pretty functional. You know, you take on top of that, though we've built touch in tow, all our systems and screen. So a capability that's available to many of our customers and I go people are just starting. In the beginning, it was like Okay, Hey, how do I take this PC with touch on the screen and then you go? I don't want to do everything with touch, but gosh, it's like how maney you now touch it. If it's something's not touch, you know you have little marks on the screen. I went thio, I went. Thio was looking and working with someone here in a design, a design firm, and, uh, they had a product that was non touch, and it's like I reached in touch the screen to try to make it bigger because my eyes were not quite as good and they were like, Oh yeah, that's not a touch that's not a touch system and everyone touches the screen so it's like that becomes normal voice is going to become normal we have capability on the PC. Like you said, there's a bunch of voice ecosystems. Not everything is easiest to go do invoice. There are some things where you go ahead. I just want to go touch that, you know, gesture in the same way we look at intelligence on the system of also going There are things I wanna have just happen because I always I always do that and I shouldn't have to do voice. I shouldn't have to do gesture, touch everything else like, Hey, maybe I start the morning and I always pull up my calendar. Why doesn't that happen? Or I like to listen to her, You know, a song in the evening as I'm typing away on email on getting things buttoned up for the day. It's like your system can anticipate some of those things and it will just do that for you. So I think I think you're exactly right. We're going to see multiple ways of interacting with technology, and it needs to be natural and easy for us and then let the user pick pick the way that they want to go and do things right. >>Well, you just touched on a whole, you jumped ahead to questions on my list of things I want to talk about. And really, that's the application of machine learning and artificial intelligence, not in a generic way. That's an app that sits inside of the PC, but but in terms of using that intelligence as you just described based on my work flow based on my habit based on the applications I use based on you know what, you can observe and learn about me. Or maybe it SSM dictate down from from the corporate set up. You know how that PC operates for me? Because I think that's it is a really interesting thing, right? Everyone uses their machine differently, and whether they use, you know, shortcuts or not, How many tabs do they have open? You know, the the variability. You must have crazy studies on this in terms of the way people actually operate. These things is so, so high, so huge opportunity to, you know, again kind of remove the the get the signal from the noise and help people decide what they should do. Prioritize what they should do and add a layer of of simplicity to you. know it is a complex amount of notifications firing at me all day long. >>Yeah, I think that's a huge. You know, you talked about the potential you have in a world where more APS that we use our cloud cloud based of going How do I augment the capability in this client device at the edge To be intelligent and helped me go do mawr versus just being, you know, really dumb and serving up this other other content. And I think everything you describe is opportunity that we see We started Jeff about five years ago and have been very aggressive and putting intelligence and machine learning into the systems we started on our work stations, where there is an obvious application of, like, how do I tune a system to get the most performance out of an application? And we saw settings configurations making them different helped tune these very specific, you know, cad engineering programs that developers were running their times really valuable. They want the most performance. We used to have to have people sit down and we go. Okay, let's go run this application. Under this workload, we can put a table together. Here's a bunch of recommendations. We started going well, Hey, how do we have that happened? Automat like, let's try different settings. Figure out what works. The machines should should self tune itself then and figure out what's right and get based on exactly what I'm running. And people can be running different combinations so suddenly got a lot smarter than our great engineer sitting in the lab and figuring out those tables. And then, you know, from that time then we brought it to I think, what's just tip of the iceberg Now, where we start looking at, uh, performance across all our systems? What applications of my running go set things up so that it works? We talked a little bit about batteries and power management. Hey, how am I using this system if I am a really mobile person? Always, you know, taking my battery down to really low levels, hopping on a plane, I need to be quickly charged, like the system can figure out. Hey, I really need to tune things. Not for when, when you go through all the mechanics of a battery, it's like I am willing to sacrifice some on the longevity of the battery to enable really fast charging of that system because Jeffs always on the go Jeff runs his battery down. I need to make sure when he plugs in, he has maximum juice. Hey, here's Sam who's in a work from home mode, always plugged in. It's not great on any battery in the world to always be at, you know, maximum maximum charge every single minute of the day. And Sam has not unplugged his system in the past. You know, five days. Hey, we can run that at 95% and he will have a long life to that battery and be really happy with the system. And he's never gonna run out of power. You can start doing in that space. You can start doing it around sound and the environment that people are in, how we get smart. And I think there's an enormous amount you could do on top of that, like you described just how people have used the systems and it can sound a little eerie, but like it's what we you know, the machine suddenly knows how I'm going to go do stuff, but I'm like I would like that it to be anticipating what I'm doing, and then it starts taking that mundane stuff that we have to do that just eats up time and, you know, goes and gets that done for us. So we could be focused on the creative and the really pushing the boundaries, thinking >>I love it because it always goes back to kind of what do you optimizing for right? And there isn't necessarily one answer to that question, and there's a lot of factors that go into that in terms of the timing. As you said, the person their behavior you know happen to GPS is I'm at an airport. Probably need to plug in for you in the airplane. It's a good stuff. I want to. I want to shift gears a little bit, Sam, to talk about operating systems, Um, and and you know, chromebooks air out now. And you know, it was kind of this breakthrough to go beyond kind of Windows based systems. I think there's a lot of people that you know hope at >>some point >>will be, you know, have the option to run Lennox based systems. But it's just, you know, with a cloud based world and a multi, you know, kind of device interaction with all those different applications, whether it's it's my phone or my my desktop or my laptop or my my chromebook or my whatever. Um, Aziz, you start to think about kind of operating systems and opening up, you know, kind of a new level of innovation with because the expectation now for for like, a chromebook is that it's almost 100% Web based APS, right? That there's really not a lot of need for anything local. Maybe a quick download, a picture too attached to to an email or something. How do you kind of look at the future and kind of operating systems for PC? Specifically? >>Yeah. Well, I think is You describe Jeff, the applications and what you're doing on the system has become increasingly important over time, and it will only become more important as we go go forward. So, you know, from that point of view window, we dio work with windows. We do work with Google and chrome. I mean, Windows 10 is a really good based operating system. Chrome has a lot of nice capability in that operating system, you know, Obviously Apple, a competitor, has a different approach in that space. But I think we have a really good set of offerings that we can put on our our systems. And then we're focused on tuning that experience on top of the operating system. I I think it's still too complicated to go and put a, you know, get a new PC into a work or home environment, retire the old PC and manage that system. And what we look at is independent of that operating system. People want to go get their stuff done. We need to make that great. They wanna get their device, they want to turn it on and they want to go use it. And we want to build a world where, like, as I'm getting a new device, my device should know me well enough to go. Hey, Sam, this is this is the right time to get a device. This is the right kind of device that you should get based on what you're going and doing. Hey, I'm going to just keep you up to date. I am going to you think about any issues with the system. We still have too many things that flow through a traditional Hey, there's an I T. Help desk and then they figure that out and then I go toe level two or level three if they can't sort that out. Hey, how do we put that stuff to your point, Jeff before around intelligence, How do we automate those processes? So we're thinking through You know what needs to happen on that system, keeping it up to date and fixing and remediating that system. So I think there's a huge potential regardless of what operating system is beneath it, and we have very good choices there to go. We've got to make that experience the one that's great for the users and that that's where we're really focusing our, you know, our time and our energy, Right? >>So let me shift gears again a little bit and full disclosure I've bought, and I don't know how many XPS towers in a row. I think I'm on my third or fourth in a row. I love >>it. I >>mean, I'm a desktop. I like to just pack those things full of as much horsepower and GPU and CPU and memory as I possibly can because to me again, Back to an investment and productivity. I don't wanna be waiting for slow machines. I just to me it's a couple 100 bucks for this upgrade. That upgrade, it seems brain dead to me that people don't do that. But in terms of when you get these things now and it comes in the mail, it's basically a >>box and a machine, and >>you think back to the old days right when there was books and warranty cards and, you know, a whole plethora of stuff that kind of fell out of that box. I know you know. That's That's probably a leading indicator on the consumer side, about some of your efforts around sustainability and and being efficient and obviously taking advantage of things like the cloud in terms of activating these machines in this and that. But I wonder if you can share a little bit on what you guys have been doing about sustainability, because I know it's important. You know, there's a big focus around, you know, kind of environmental trash on old electron ICS, which is a riel, a real problem that people are dressing. So I wonder if you can. You know. Take a minute, Thio, to share your guys efforts in this area. >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Jeff. It is. It is really important. And we see, you know, arming the world with technology so people can do better. Things really matters, but I love doing stuff outside, like I want the environment to be great. And we need to do that in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way. So a couple of places we, you know, pushed really aggressively. You touched on the packaging. So whether that's taking, um, content out of boxes, that doesn't that doesn't need to be there. We've made very aggressive commitments with a series of 2030 goals that we're marching towards is a company where we said, you know, 100% of our packaging will be from sustainable or recyclable sources. So we've already moved aggressively in that space. When you look at what ocean bound plastic we're putting in our boxes, how we think about the materials that were picking, you know, cardboard, and using that in ways that go through the you know, the mail and can be shipped effectively. So we have maximum content there that can be recycled. We've we've committed that we will take back a system for every system that we ship. So getting and building this circular economy for electron ICS, we think is is very important. So we take the stuff that we've got out there and we put that back into a recycle process where you know your old PC can become part of your new cutting edge technology PC and we've led the industry and doing that in plastics were taking plastics from cases and plastics from systems, getting that back into new systems. We've done that with precious metals from the from the, uh, PCB lay board designs inside the systems. We've done that with rare earth metals and magnets, and we think there's opportunity to go farther in that space and then the 3rd 3rd kind of thing that we've committed Jeff is by by 2030 to have half the content of our new systems, be from recycled or renewable content. And we do a good job today of having the content in the systems be recyclable. It's almost over 90% by weight, but what we want to do and the work we need to go do is go get that recycled content going into a cutting edge technology that we're putting out there, and it's not. That's not a simple problem of going. People want things a structurally strong as possible, a super thin as performance as possible. And then we need to you, you know, we gotta use, um, basically waste that comes through and gets turned into new products. So we have our engineers are material science people working on how we make that riel. And we set some aggressive goals with, you know, Michael and the company that will be leadership and that we don't quite exactly know how to get there, but put us on the right kind of edge of pushing and doing the things that we need. Thio. We can have great technology and, you know, be responsible in the way that, as you said, is very important. >>It's great, and it's good to write it down, right? If you don't write it down, then it's just it just disappears into the into the ether. So, Sam, I really enjoyed getting to catch up. I want to give you the final word with a little bit. Look to the path and a little bit look to the future, right? A lot of conversation about Moore's law, and we got to the end of Moore's law and blah, blah, blah. And and I think that, you know, there's obviously technology behind that, and there's some real conversations. But to me, the more interesting topic around Moore's law is really the idea of Moore's law and this continual advancement of technology that's better, faster, cheaper. You've been doing this for 20 years at Del. You've seen tons of, you know, kind of Moore's law impacts and operating in this world where, you know, compute, compute storage and networking just is on this exponential scale on whether you want to talk about GP use or whatever again to me, it's not about the number, of course, and the transistor. It's about the transition in the core. It's about really the concept of this working in a world where you know you're gonna have a lot more. Where is power work with How do you How do you kind of reflect on, you know, the stuff that you're shipping today versus what you were shipping five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago and then, more importantly, is you look forward. Um, you know what is what are you excited about? What gets you up in the morning? What puts a big smile on your face? Still come to work after 20 years of Dell? >>Yeah. You know, Jeff, it's a great question because the industry has changed so much over the last 10 20 years. So it's sometimes a fun thing. Toe. Look back at some of the products that we put out before. That seemed amazing at that point in time and you stack them against what we're doing now and then it could bring you down to Earth a little bit. So you see, the, uh, you see just the exponential improvements that we're able to make around the design of the product, the capability of the products. And I see that continuing the thing that gives me, you know, huge thought around this the device and the PC and the role is gonna play at the edge. We just did some research and we were looking at Millennials and Gen Z and looking around the world, and that is a huge and growing part of the population. It will be the the users of technology in the future with the world we're in today, 45% of them. So almost half of them said they would take their dollars and they want a premium, high end PC experience, and they would prioritize that versus other things they spend money on to go and have a great PC as a personal tool. Do you think about that translating to in a work environment they're gonna expect those same kind of great tools? And then to the question you asked, You know, I see a huge opportunity to continue to push forward the value and the way people use these devices, whether it's the intelligence we talked about. That to me is really exciting around building a machine that knows me and does things for me and how I want to use it, our ability to build immersive experiences so that you know, whether I'm gaming after work, collaborating with co workers like how do I put it so that we're together and it's a good Aziz that in person experience, we're gonna be able to do that with technology. You talked in a great questions around. Hey, the ways people interact with the systems, it will become natural. It will become whatever way they want to go and do that. And I think we can do that in a world where, yes, you can walk between all kinds of different devices. There will not be one device to end all. You'll be in a small screen device. You're gonna use a monitor. You're going to use a PC device. There will be technology across the home. But toe have that have that link together in the role that PC is gonna play in. That to me, is exciting. And we continue to, you know, invest aggressively. Michael saw that when he started the company. We continue to believe in the power of technology, and we're gonna figure out and drive those breakthroughs that will make the, you know, products exciting. And I love doing that every day of seeing the innovation we can put together and how that makes a difference for people. To me, that's really an exciting thing. >>Well, Sam, thank you. Thank you for the update. Again, the rumors of the PCs demise were greatly overstated. 10 years and glad to see that you're just kicking tail and doing exciting things. So thanks for for sharing your insight and your experience with us. >>Hey, thanks a lot for having me, Jeff. Great to talk to you. >>Absolutely. All right. He's Sam. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cubes. Continuing coverage of Dell Technology World 2020 The Digital Experience. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>> Woman: From theCube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios to have a Cube conversation with a real leader in the industry he's been publishing for a long, long time. I've been following him in social media. First time I've ever get the met in person and kind of a virtual COVID 20, 20 way. And we're excited to welcome into the studio. Bob Evans. He's a founder and principal analyst, the Cloud Wars Media coming to us. Bob where are you coming to us from today? >> In Pittsburgh today. Jeff. Good to see you. >> Awesome. Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. There's a lot of Fricks in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania cause Henry Clay was there many moons ago so that's a good town. So welcome. >> Thank you, Jeff. Thanks. Great to be here. And I look forward to our conversation. >> Absolutely. So let's, let's jump into it. So I know you attended today, the Citrix Cloud Summit you know, we've covered Citrix energy in the past this year, they decided to go we'll obviously virtual like everybody did but they, you know, they did something a little creative I think as, and they broke it into pieces, which, which I think is the way of the future. There's no reason to necessarily aggregate all of your news, all of your customer stuff, all your customer appreciation, the party the partners, all for three days in Vegas. Cause that's the only time you could get the Science Convention Center. So today was the Cloud Summit all day long. First off, just, you know, your general impressions of the event, >> Jeff, you know, I just thought that the guys had hit a really good note about what's going on in the outside world. You know, sometimes I think it's a little awkward when tech companies come in and the first thing they want to talk about is themselves, which I guess in some ways fine but I think the Citrix guys did a really good job at coming outside in here's what's going on in the outside world. Here's how we as a technology player trying to adapt to that and deliver the maximum value to our customers in this time of unprecedented change. So I thought they really nailed that with cloud and some of the other big topics that they laid out >> Great. And you've been covering cloud for a long time and, and you know, COVID is, we're still in it. There's a lot of really bad things that are happening. There's hundreds of thousands of people that are dying and a lot of businesses are getting crushed especially hospitality, travel you know, anything that relies on an aggregation of people. Conversely though we're, we're fortunate to be in the IT industry and in the information industry. And for a lot of industries, it's actually been kind of an accelerant. And one of the main accelerants is this, you know kind of digital transformation and new way to work. And some of these things that were initiatives in play but on March 15th, approximately it was go, right? It was Light switch no more planning, no more talking, it's here now. Ready, set, go. And it's in, you know, Citrix is in a pretty good position in terms of the products that they offer, the services that they offer, the customer base that they have to take advantage of that opportunity and, and you know, go to this, we've all seen the social media memes right? Who's driving your digital transformation the CEO, the CIO, or COVID. And we all know what the answer to the question is. They're pretty well positioned and it seems like, you know, they're doing a good job kind of doubling down on the opportunity. >> Jeff. Yeah. And I'd sure echo your, your initial point there about the nightmare that everybody's experienced over the last six or seven months. There's, there's no way around that yet. It has forced in these categories like, you know, that we've all heard hundreds of thousand time digital transformation to the point where the term almost becomes a cliche but in fact right? You know, it has become something that's really you know, one of the driving forces, touching everybody in the planet, right? There's, and I think digital transformation. Isn't so much about the technology, of course but it's because, you know, there's a couple billion people around the world who want to live digitally enhanced digitally driven lifestyles. And the pandemic only accelerated that as you said. So it triggered things you know, in our personal lives and our new set of requirements and expectations sort of rippled up to the B2C companies and from them back up to the B2B companies So every company on earth, every industry has had to do this. And like you said, if they were, deluding themselves maybe telling themselves these different companies that yeah, we're going fast, we're aggressive. Well, when this thing hit earlier this year as you said, they just had to really slam their foot down. I think that David Henshall from Citrix said that they had some companies that had, they were compressing three years into five months or he said in some cases even weeks. So it's really been extraordinary. And cloud has been the vehicle for these companies to get over into their digital future. >> Right. And let's talk about that for a minute because you know, Moore's law is my favorite law that nobody knows which was, you know, we tend to underestimate, excuse me we tend to overestimate the impact of technology in the short term of specific technology and underestimate the longterm impact. You know, Gardener kind of uses a similar thing with the hype cycle. And then you know, the thing goes at the end, you know, had COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago you know, the ease in which the information workers were able to basically just not show up and turn on their computer at home and have access to most of their tools and most of the security and most of their applications that wasn't even possible. So it's a really interesting, you know, just validation on the enabler that we are actually able to not go to work on Tuesday the 16th or whatever the day was. And for the most part, you know, get most of our work done. >> Yeah. Yeah. Jeff, you know, I've thought about it a lot over the last several months. Remember the big consultant companies used to try to do these measures of technology and they'd always come out and say, well, we've done all these studies. And despite the billions of dollars of investment we can't show that IT has actually boosted productivity or, you know, delivered an ROI that customers should be happy with. I was always puzzled by some of the things that went into those. But I would say that today over these last six or seven months to your point, we have seen extraordinary validation of these investments in technology broadly. But specifically I think some of these things that are happening with the cloud, you know, as you've said how fast some companies have been able to do this and then not remarkable thing, Jeff right. About human nature. And we hear a lot about in, in when companies change that relative to changing human behavior changing technology is somewhat easy but you try to change human behavior and it's wicked. Well, we had this highly motivating force behind it, of the pandemic. So you had a desire on the part of people to change. And as you pointed out, there's also this corresponding thing of, you know, the technology was here. It was right. You've got a fast number of companies delivering some extraordinary solutions. And, you know, I thought it was interesting. I think it was a Kirsten Kliphouse from Google cloud. One of Citrix's partners who said that we're two best of breed companies, Citrix and Google cloud. So I thought that, that coming from Google you know, that is very high praise. So again, I think the guys at Citrix are sort of coming into this at the right time with the right set of outside in-approaches and having that flexibility to say that we're moving into territory nobody's ever been both been in before. So we better be able to move as fast as possible. >> Right. Right. And, and just to keep going down the quote line, you know once everyone is taken care of and you, you deal with the health and safety of your people which is a number one, right? The other thing is the great Winston Churchill quote which has never let a good crisis go to waste. And I think you know, David talked about in that, in his keynote that this is an opportunity, He said to challenge assumptions, challenge the models of the past. So, you know get beyond the technology discussion and use this really as a catalyst to rethink the way that you do things. And, you know, I think it's a really interesting moment because there is no model right? There is no, there is no formula for how do you reopen, there was no playbook for how do you shut down? You know, it was, everybody's figuring it out. And you've got kind of all these concurrent processes happening at the same time as everyone tries to figure it out and come to solutions. But clearly, you know, the path to, to leverage as much as you can, is the cloud and the flexibility of the cloud and, you know the ability to, to expand, add more applications. And so, you know, Citrix again, right place, right time right. Solution, but also you know, taking an aggressive tact to take advantage of this opportunity, both in taking care of their customers, but really it's a real great opportunity for them to change a little bit. >> It is. And Jeff, you know, I think if I could just piggyback on you know, your, your guy there Winston Churchill, one of his other quotes, I love it too. And he said, if find yourself crawling through hell, keep going. And I think so many companies have really had to do that now. It's, it's not ideal. It's not maybe the way they plan it but this is the reality we're facing here in 2020 and a couple of things right? I think it requires a new type of leadership within the customer companies right? What, how the CEO gets engaged in saying, I, I'm not going to relegate this to the CIO for this to happen and something else to the CMO. They've got to be front and center on this because people are pretty smart. And then the heightened sensitivity that everybody in every business has around the world today if you think your CEO is just paying lip service to this stuff about digital transformation and all these changes that everybody's going to make, the people aren't going to buy into it. So you've got the leadership thing happening on the one side and into that it's not a vacuum, but into that void or that opportunity of this unprecedented space that you mentioned come the smart, capable forward-looking technology companies that are less concerned with the stuff that they've dragged along with them for years or decade or more. But instead of trying to say, what is the new stuff that people are going to be desperately in need of and how can I help these customers do things that they never did before? It's going to require me as a tech company to do stuff that I've never done before. So I, I've just been really inspired by seeing a lot of the tech companies doing what they are helping their customers to do which is take a product development cycle, look at all the new stuff that came out around COVID and back to work, workspaces. And so on what Citrix, you know others are doing like this, the product development cycles Jeff, you study this stuff closely. It's, it's almost unimaginable. If you had said that somebody within three months within two months, we're going to have a new suite of product available we would have said it just, it's not possible the nice idea but it can't work, but that's happening now, right? >> Yeah. Isn't it interesting that had you asked them on March 10th, they would have told you it's not possible. And by March 20th, they were doing it. >> Yeah. >> At scale, huge companies. And to your point, I think that the good news is they had kind of their own companies to eat their own dog food and get their own employees you know, working from home and then, you know, bake that into the way that they had their go to market. But let's talk a little bit more specifically about work from home or work from anywhere or the new way to work. And it's funny cause that's been bantered about for, for way too long, but now, now it's here. And most indications are that for many people, many companies are saying you're not going to go back for a while. And even when you do go back it's going to be a lot different. So, you know, the new way to work is really important. And there's so much that goes into that. And one of the big pieces that I'm encouraged to hear is how do you measure work? And, you know, there's a great line I heard where, you know work is an output. It's not a place to go. And, you know, I had Martin Michaelson early on in this thing, and he had the great line, you know it's so easy to fake it at work, you know, just look busy and walk around and go to all the meetings where with a work from home or work from anywhere. What the leadership needs to do is, is a couple of things. One, is measure output right? Not activity. And you know, it's great. People can have dinner with their family or go see the kid's baseball game. Or I guess they don't have a baseball games right now but, you know, measure output, not activity which is, doesn't seem to be that revolutionary. But I think it kind of is. And, and then the other thing is really be an enabler and be a, an unblocker for people in terms of a leadership role right? Get out, help get stuff out of the way. And, but unfortunately, the counter is, you know how many apps does a normal person have to interact with every day? And how many notifications do those apps fire off every day between Slack and Asana and Salesforce and, and texts and tweets and everything else. You know, I think there's a real opportunity to take a whole nother level of productivity improvement by removing these, these silly distractions automating, you know, as much of the crap away as we can to enable people to use their brains and have some quiet time and think about things and deliver much better value than this constant reaction to nonstop notifications. >> Yeah. Yeah. Jeff, you know, I loved your point there about the difference between people's outlook on March 10th versus on March 20th. And I believe that, you know, all limitations are self-imposed, right? We tend to form constructs around how we think and allow those then to shape and often restrict or confine our behavior. And here's an example of the CEO of Novartis Pharmaceutical Company. He said, we have been brought up in the pharmaceutical industry to believe that it is immutable law of physics that it's going to take 12 and a half years and two and a half billion dollars to get a new drug approved. And he said in the past with the technology and the processes and the capabilities that that was true it is not true today yet too often, the pharmaceutical industries behave like those external limitations are put in there. So flip that over to one of the customers that, that was at the Citrix Cloud Summit today Jim Noga, who's the CIO at Mass General Brigham. I thought it was remarkable what he said when you asked about how are things going with this work from home? Well, Jim Noga the CIO there said that we had been averaging before COVID 9,000 virtual visits a month. And he said since then that number has gone up to a quarter of a million virtual visits a month or it's 8,000 a day. So they're doing an a day what they used to do in a month. Like, you said it, you tell them that on March 10th, they're not going to believe it but March 20th, it started to become reality. So I think for the customers, they're going to be more drawn to companies that are willing to say, I see your need. I see how fast you want to move. I see where you need to go and do things you never did before. I'm willing to lock elbows with you, and go in on that. And the tech number is that sort of sit back and say, ah well, I'd like to help you there, but that's not what I do. They're going to get destroyed. They're going to get blown out. And I think over the next year or two, we're going to see this massive forcing function in the tech industry. That's going to separate the companies that are able to move at the pace of market and keep up with their customers versus those that are trapped by their past or by their legacy. And it is, going to be a fascinating talk. >> So I throw on a follow up to make sure I understand that number. Those are patient visits per unit time. >> Yeah. At Mass Brigham. So he said 9,000 virtual visits a month is what they're averaging before COVID. He said, now we're up to 250,000 virtual visits per month. >> Wow. >> So it's 8,000 a day. >> Wow. I mean the thing that highlights to me, Bob, and the fact that we're doing this right now, and none of us had to get on an airplane is, you know, I think when people think back or sit back and look at what does this enable? right? What does digital enable? Instead of saying instead of focusing what we can't do, like we can't go out and get a cup of coffee after this is over and we can't and that would be great and we'd have a good time but conversely, there's so many new things that you can do right? And you can reach so many more people than you could physically. And, and for like, you know, events like the one today. And, you know, we cover events all the time. So many more people can attend if they don't have the expense, of flying to Vegas and they don't have to leave the shop or, you know, whatever the limitations are. And we're seeing massive increases in registrants for virtual events, massive increase in new registrants. Who've never attended the, the events before. So I think he really brings up a good point, which is, you know, focus on what you can do and which is a whole new opportunity a whole new space, if you will, as opposed to continuing to whine about the things that we can't do because we can't do anything about those anyway >> No, and you know, that old line of a wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first (laughs) you know, one of the other guests that that was on the Cloud Summit today Jeff, I don't know if you got to see 'em, but Steve Shute from SAP who heads up their entire 40,000 person customer success organization he said this about Citrix. "Citrix workspace is the foundation to provide secure cloud based access for this new generation of remote workers." So you get companies like SAP, and, you know, you want to talk about somebody that has earned its way into the, you know the biggest companies in the world and how they go along. You know, it's pretty powerful. They end up, your point Jeff, about how things have changed, focus on what we can do. The former CEO of SAP, Bill McDermott. He recently said, we think of phones as, you know, devices that help us be more productive. We think of computers as devices that help us be more productive. He said, now the world's going to start thinking of the office or the headquarters. It's a productivity tool. That's all it is. It's not the place that measures Hey, he was only at work, four days today. So, you know, he didn't really contribute. It's going to be a productivity tool. So we're going to look at a lot of concepts and just flip them upside down what they meant in February. Isn't going to to mean that much after this incredible change that we've all been through. >> Right. Right. Another big theme I wanted to touch base with you on it was very evident at the at the show today was multicloud right and hybrid cloud. And, you know, I used to work for Oracle in, in the day. And you know Amazon really changed the game in, in public cloud. The greatest line, one of Jeff's best lines is you know, we had seven year headstart. Nobody even was paying attention to the small book seller in Seattle and they completely changed enterprise technology. But what came across today pretty clearly right? As horses for courses, and really focusing at the application first right? The workload first and where that thing runs and how that thing runs, can be any place in that in a large organization you know, this is pick an airline or, or a big bank right? They're going to have stuff running at Oracle. They're going to have stuff running at AWS. They're going to have stuff running on Google. They're going to to have stuff running in Azure. They're going to have stuff running in their data center. IBM cloud, Ali Baba. I mean there's restrictions for location and, and data sovereigncy and all these things that are driving it. And really, you know, kind of drives this concept where the concept of cloud is kind of simple but the actual execution day to day at the enterprise level and managing and keeping track of this stuff, it is definitely a multicloud hybrid cloud. Pick your, pick your, your adjective but it's definitely not a single cloud world. That's for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. And Jeff, you know, the Citrix customer that I mentioned earlier, Jim Noga is that the CIO at mass General Brigham, one of the other points he made about this was he said he's been very pleased about some of the contributions that cloud has made in, in, in his hospital organizations, you know transformation, what they've been able today and all the new things that they're capable of doing now that they were not people poor. But he said, you know, cloud is a tool. He said, it's not Nirvana. It's not a place for everything. He said, we have some on-premises systems. He said, they're more valuable now than they were a couple of years ago. And then we've got edge devices and we have something else over here. He said, so I think his point was it's important to put the proper value on cloud for all the things it can do for a specific organization, but not the thing that it's a panacea for everything though, big fan, but also a realist about it. >> Great. >> And so from that to the hybrid stuff and multicloud and I know all the big tech vendors would love it and say Oh no, it's not a multicloud, but just be my cloud. Just, just use my stuff. Everything will be easy, but that's not true. So I think Citrix position itself really well big emphasis on security, big emphasis on the experience that employees need to have. It isn't just sort of like a road war you loose five or seven years ago, as long as he, or she can connect through email and, you know, sending a sales data back and forth, they're all set. Now. It's very different. You've got people sitting in a wildly different environments for, you know, six, eight, 10 hours a day and chunk of an hour or two or three here or there. But that, that seamless experience always dependable, always reliable is just, you know, it can't be compromised. And I just thought you have one you know, high level thought about what happened. It was impressive for me to see that Citrix certainly a fine company put it. It's not one of the biggest tech companies in the world but look at the companies we have, the Microsoft, SAP talking about Google Cloud, AWS, you know, up and down the line. So I just thought it was really impressive how they showed their might as sort of a part of a network effect that is undeniable right now. >> Right. Right. And I think it's driven, you know, we hear over and over right? I mean, co-opertition is a very Silicon Valley thing. And ultimately it's about customer choice and the customer's going to choose you know, kind of by workload, even if you will or by budget as to what they're going to do where so you have to be able to operate in that world or you're going to be you're going to get, you're going to get left out unless you're just super dominant and it's a single application and they built it on you and that's it. But that's not realistic. I want to shift gears a little bit Bob, since I'm so happy to be talking to you on another topic, that's, that's a big mega trend and we're slowly seeing more and more applications. That's machine learning and artificial intelligence and you know, and, and the generic conversations about these remind me of the old big data conversations. It's like okay. So what you know, who cares? It doesn't really matter until you apply it. And with all these new applications and even just around the work from home that we discussed earlier, you know, there's so many opportunities to apply machine learning and AI, to very specific functions and tasks to, again, help people prioritize what they're going to do help people not have to deal with the crap that they shouldn't have to do. And really, you know at a whole another level of, of productivity really, based on a smarter way to help them figure out what am I going to do in my next, my next marginal minute? You know, cause ultimately that's the decision that people make when they're sitting down getting work, done it, how do they do the best work? And I think the AI and machine learning opportunities are gargantuan. >> Jeff. The point you made a few minutes ago about, you know, we tend to overestimate the impact of a new technology in the short term and underestimate it, what it'll be overtime well, we've been doing that with AI for the last 40 years but this is going to be sort of the golden age of it. And one of the reasons why I have been so bullish on cloud is it presents like the perfect delivery system for it. This is we see in medicine, there's sometimes breakthroughs at the laboratory level where they've got the new breakthrough medication but they don't have the bullet. They don't have the delivery system to get it in there, cloud's going to be an accelerator for that. And it gives the tech companies, which and this is going to be very good for customers, every big tech company. Now as a data company, every company says, it's an analytics. Everybody says I'm into AI. Every company says I'm into ML. And in a way that's real good for customers cause the competitive level is going to soar. It's going to bring more choice. As you said, the more customers more types of solutions, more sorts of innovation. And it's also going to be incumbent on those tech vendors. You've got to make it as easy as possible, as fast as possible for these customers to get the benefit of it. I think it was Thomas Kurian, the CEO of Google cloud said, Hey, you know, if, if a shoe company or a retailer or a bank had fantastic expertise in data science, they could go out and hire 200 data scientists do this all themselves. He said, but that's not what they do. And they don't want to do that. >> Right. >> So he said, come to the companies who can do it. And I think that we will see changes in how business works driven by ML and AI, unlike anything that we've ever seen. >> Yeah. >> And that's going to happen over the next 12, 18 months. >> Yeah. Baked into everything. Well, Bob, I really am excited that we finally got to catch up in, in person COVID style. Like I said, I've been following you for a long time. So I just gave you the last word before we sign off. You know, you've been in this business for a long time. You've seen lots and lots of waves. You know, this is just another wave with this, with this, you know, gasoline thrown on the fire with, with COVID in terms of the rate of change. And the, you know there's no more talking, the time to move is now, share kind of your perspective as to kind of where we are. And, you know, we're, we're not that far from flipping the calendar to 2021, which is a good thing you know, as you, as you look forward a little bit you know, what's in your mind, what's getting you excited. What's getting you up in the morning. >> Yeah. Jeff, I guess it comes down to this thing of, we, I think here late in 2020, everybody's got a reason to be pretty proud of what we have done, not only in the last six months but over the last several years, if you look at the improvements that have been made in health care and making it available to more people, in education the things that teenagers or young teenagers or even pre-teenagers can do now to learn and explore the world and communicate with people from all over the globe, there's a lot of great things going on, but I think we're going to look back on this point and say, this was, this was a pivot point here in mid and late 2020, when we stopped letting in some ways, as you described it earlier worrying so much about the things we can't do. And instead put more time into what we can do, what breakthroughs can we make. And I think these things we've talked about with AI and ML are going to be a big part of that, the computer industry or the tech industry, maturing and understanding they're not in charge. It's the customers who are in charge here. And the tech companies have to reorient themselves and reimagine themselves to meet the demands of this new fast changing world. And so I think those are some of the mega trends and more and more Jeff, I think these tech companies are going to say that the customers are demanding that the tech companies give them the gift of speed, give them the gift of engaging with customers in new ways, give them the gift of seeing the world as other people see it rather than just through the narrow lens of, you know sometimes the tech bubble that can percolate somewhere out sometimes out in the Palo Alto area. So I, I'm incredibly optimistic about what the future is going to bring. >> Well, Thank you. Thanks for Bob for sharing your insight. You can follow Bob on Twitter. He's got podcasts, he's very prolific writer and again, really, really a great to meet you in person. And thanks for sharing your thoughts >> Jeff, thanks so much. You guys do a fantastic job and it's been a pleasure to be with you. >> Thank you. Allright. He's Bob Evans. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCube from our Palo Alto studios. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBEConversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeffrey here with theCUBE we're in our Palo Alto Studios the calendar has turned to late September I still can't believe it. We're still getting through the COVID issue and as we've seen in the news companies are taking all different types of tacts and how they're announcing kind of their go forward strategy with the many of them saying they're going to continue to have work from home or work from anywhere policies. And we're really excited to have our next guest from Citrix. He's Tim Minahan, the EVP of Strategy and the CMO of Citrix, Tim great to see you. >> Jeff, thanks for having me. >> Yeah so love having you guys on we had Tamara on and Amy Haworth this back in April when this thing was first starting and you know we had this light switch moment and everyone had to deal with a work from anywhere world. Now, it's been going on for over six months, people are making announcements, Google, Facebook, Twitter I'm out in the Valley so a lot of the companies here locally saying we're probably not going to have you back for a very long period of time. You guys have been in the supporting remote workers for a really long time, you're kind of like Zoom right place, right time, right market and then suddenly this light switch moment, it's a whole lot more important than it was before. We're six months into this thing what can you share that you've seen from your customers and kind of the transition that we've gone from kind of the shock and awe back in March to now we're in late September almost to October and this is going to continue for a while. >> Yeah, Jeff well, if there is any silver lining to the global crisis that we're all living through, it's that it has indeed caused organizations in all industries really to accelerate their digital transformation and to rethink how they work. And so at Citrix we've done considerable crisis scenario modeling. Engaging with our own customers, with government officials, with influencers around the globe really to determine how will the current environment change, cause companies to change their operating models and to prioritize their IT investments. And it really boils down to while there's variations by geography and sector, our modeling points to three major shifts in behavior. The first is looking for greater agility in their operations companies are adopting more variable operating models, literally in everything from their workforce strategy to the real estate strategy, to their IT strategy to allow them to scale up quickly to the next inevitable, unplanned event or opportunity. And for IT this typically means modernizing their application environment and taking that kind of one to three year cloud transition plan and accelerating it into a few months. The second thing we're seeing is because of the pandemic companies are realizing they need to prioritize employee experience to provide a consistent and secure work experience wherever work needs to get done. Whether that's in the office, whether that's on the road or increasingly whether that's at home and that goes beyond just traditional virtualization applications but it's also for delivering in a secure and unified environment. Your virtual apps alongside your SaaS apps, your web apps, your mobile apps, et cetera. And then finally, as companies rapidly move to the cloud and they adopt SaaS and they moved to these more distributed IT operating models, their attack surface from a security standpoint expands and they need to evolve their security model to one that is much more contextual and understands the behaviors and the access behaviors of individuals so if you're going to apply security policies and you'll keep your company information and application secure no matter where work is getting done. >> That's a great summary and you know there's been lots of conversation about security and increased attack surface but now you had a blog post that you published last month, September 15th, really interesting. And you talked about kind of COVID being this accelerant in work from home and we talk a lot about consumerization of IT and apps but we haven't talked a lot about it in the context of the employee experience. And you outlined some really great specific vocabulary those people need to be able to sit and think and create and explore the way they want so they can become what they can be free from the distractions at the same time you go through the plethora of I don't know how many business apps we all have to interact with every single day from Salesforce to Asana to Slack to Outlook to Google Drive to Box to et cetera, et cetera. And as you point out here the distractions in I think you said, "People are interrupted by a text, a chat or application alert every two minutes." So that there's this real battle between trying to do higher value work and less minutiae versus this increasing number of applications that are screaming for my attention and interrupting me anytime I'm trying to get something done. So how do you guys look at that and say, hey, we've got an opportunity to make some serious improvements so that you can get to that and cut the employee experience so they can deliver the higher value stuff and not just moving paper down the line. >> Yeah, absolutely Jeff, to your point you know a lot of the tools that we've introduced and adopted and the devices we've used in the like over the years certainly provide some advantages in helping us collaborate better, helping us execute business transactions and the like. However, they've also added a lot of complexity, right? As you said, typical employees use more than a dozen apps to get work done often four or more just to complete a single business process like submitting an expense or a purchase order or approving time off. They spend another 20% of their time searching for information they need to do their jobs across all of these different applications and collaboration channels and they are interrupted by alerts and texts and chats every few minutes. And that really keeps them from doing their core jobs and so Citrix is committed to delivering a digital workspace solutions that help companies transform employee experience to drive better business outcomes. And we do that in three ways. Number one is leveraging our heritage around delivering a unified and secure work environment. We bring all of the resources and employee needs together, your virtual apps and desktops, your SaaS apps, your web apps, your mobile apps, your information and your content into one unified experience. We wrapper that in a contextualized security model that doesn't get in the way of employees getting their job done but understands that employees, their behavior, their access protocols and assigns additional security policies, maybe a second level of authentication or maybe turning off certain features if they're behaving a little bit differently. But the key thing I think is that the third component we've also over the past several years infused within this unified workspace, intelligence, machine learning, workflows or micro apps that really remove that noise from your day, providing a personalized work stream to that individual employee and only offering up the individual tasks or the insights that they need to get their job done. Really guiding them through their day and automating some of that noise out of their day so they can really focus on being creative, focus on being innovative and to your point, giving them that space they need to succeed. >> Yeah, it's a great point, Tim and you know one of the hot buzz words that we hear all the time right now is artificial intelligence and machine learning. And people talk about it, it's kind of like big data where that's not really where the opportunity is in kind of general purpose AI as we've talked to people in natural language processing and video processing. It's really about application specific uses of AI to do something and I know you guys commissioned looks like a report called Work 2035. There's a nice summary that I was able to pull off the internet and there's some really positive things in here. It's actually, you know it got some good news in it about work being more flexible and new jobs will be created and productivity will get a major boost but the piece  I wanted to focus on which piggybacks on what you're just talking is the application of AI around a lot of specific tasks whether that's nudges, personal assistance, wearables that tell you to get up and stretch. And as I think and what triggered as you said, as this person is sitting at their desk trying to figure out what to do now, you've got your calendar, you've got your own tasks but then you've got all these notifications. So the opportunity to apply AI to help me figure out what I should be focusing on that is a tremendous opportunity and potential productivity enhancer, not to mention my mental health and positive attitude and engagement. >> Yeah, absolutely Jeff, and this Work 2035 project that we undertook is from a year long effort of research, quantitative research of business executives, IT executives supplemented with qualitative research with futurist work experts and the like to really begin a dialogue together with governments, with enterprises, with other technology companies about how we should be leveraging technology, how we should be changing our operating models and how we should be adapting our business culture to facilitate a new and better way to work. And to your point, some of the key findings are it's not going to be Skynet out there in the future. AI is not going to overtake all of our jobs and the like it is going to actually help us, you're going to see more of the augmented worker that really not only offers up the insights and the tasks like we just talked about when they're needed but actually helps us through decision-making helps us actually assess massive amounts of data to better engage with customers, better service healthcare to patients and the like. To your point, because of this some jobs certainly will be lost but new jobs will be created, right? And some people will need to be the coaches or trainers for these bots and robots. You'll see things like advanced data scientists becoming more in demand, virtual reality managers, privacy and trust managers. And then to your point, work is going to be more flexible we already talked about this but the ability to allow employees to perform at their best and give them all the resources they need to do so wherever work needs to happen, whether that's in the office, in the field or at home but importantly for businesses and even for employees this actually changes the dynamic of what we think about as a workforce. We can now tap into new pools of talent not just in remote locations but entire segments that had because of our traditional work hub model where I build a big office building or a call center and people have to commute there. Now they can work anywhere so you think about recent retirees that have a lot of domain expertise can get back into the workforce, stay at home parents or stay at home caregivers can actually engage and use their skills and expertise to reengage in that workforce. These are really, really exciting things and then the last thing is, it will help us improve employee engagement, improve wellness and improve productivity by having AI help us throughout our day, guiding us to the right decisions and automating tasks that typically added noise to our day so that we can focus on where we as humans are great which is some of the key decision-making, the creativity, the innovation to drive that next wave of growth for our companies. >> Yeah it's really interesting the kind of divergence that you're seeing with people in this opportunity, right? One of the benefits is that there is no script in how to move forward today, right? This has never happened before, especially at the scale so people are trying all kinds of things and you're talking about is a lot of positive uses of technology to an aide or to get blockers out of the way and help people do a better job. Unfortunately, there's this whole other track that we hear about, you know monitoring, are you in front of your desk, monitoring how many Zoom calls are you on a day, monitoring all these silly things that are kind of old school management of activity versus kind of new school managing of output. And we've done a lot of interviews on this topic, one of Darren Murph from GitLab great comments, does it now as a boss, your job should be removing blockers from your people to help them do a better job, right? That's such a different kind of mentality than managing their tasks and managing the minutiae. So really a lot of good stuff and we could go for a very long time and maybe we'll have a followup, but I want to shift gears a little bit here and talk about the other big delta that impacts both of you and I pretty dramatically and that's virtual events or the fact that basically March 15th there was no more gatherings of people, period. And you guys we've covered Citrix Synergy in the past but this year you guys have gone a different kind of tact. And again, I think what's so interesting about it is there is no right answer and everyone is trying to experiment and we're seeing all different ways to get your message to the market. But then the other really important part of events is getting leads, right? And getting engagement with your audience whether that's customers, whether that's partners, whether it's prospects, whether it's press and analysts and everything else. So I wonder if you can share with us kind of the thinking you had the benefit of kind of six months into this thing versus a couple of weeks which a few people had in early May, you know how did you kind of look at the landscape and how did you come to the conclusion that for you guys, it's this three event you've got Citrix Cloud on October 8th, Citrix Workspace Summit on October 22nd and Citrix Security Summit on October 29th. What did you think about before you came to this decision? >> Yeah, it's a great question, Jeff and certainly we put a lot of thought into it and to your point what helped clarify things for us is we always put the customer first. And so, like many other companies we did have our Big User Conference scheduled for the May timeframe, but you know considering the environment at that time and companies were just figuring out how to get their employees home and working securely and safely, how to maintain business continuity. We felt the inappropriate at time to be able to be talking about future innovations and so on and so forth. So we made the decision to kind of put an end to our Citrix Synergy for the year and instead, we went through all this scenario modeling as I mentioned and we've accelerated our focus and our investments and our partnerships to develop new innovations to help our customers achieve the three things that they prioritize which is accelerating that cloud transition, that hybrid multicloud transition plan, advancing their digital workspace and employee experience strategies and embracing a new, more contextual security framework. And so when we thought about how do we bring those announcements to market, how do we help educate our customers around these topics? It became very clear that we needed to design for digital attention spans which means it's not everything in the kitchen sink and we hope that we're bringing a whole bunch of different buying segments together and customer segments together and hope that they glean out the key insights we want. Instead, we wanted to be very focused around the cloud acceleration, the workspace and employee experience strategies and the security strategies is we created three separate summits. And even within the summits we've designed them for digital attention spans, no individual segment is going to be more than 20 minutes long. There'll be very descriptive so you can almost choose your own pathway as you go through the conference rather than having to commit a whole day or the likes you can get the information you need, it's supplemented by knowledge centers so you can go deeper if you want to and talk to some of our experts, if you want to. And it's certainly something we'll use to facilitate ongoing dialogue long after the day of event. >> Really interesting 20 minutes is the longest session. That is really progressive and again I think it's great to hear you say that you started from the perspective of the customer. I think so many people have basically started from the perspective of what did we do for the SaaS convention May five through eight in 2019 and then try to replicate that kind of almost one-to-one in a digital format which isn't really doing justice to either of the formats, I think and not really looking at the opportunity that digital affords that physical doesn't and we just getting together and grabbing a coffee or a drink or whatever in those hallways but there's a whole lot of things that you can do on a digital event that you can't do in a physical event. And we're seeing massive registration and more importantly, massive registration of new people that didn't have the ability couldn't afford it, couldn't get away from the shop whatever the reason is that that the physical events really weren't an option. So I think instead of focusing on the lack of hallway chatter spend your time focusing on the things you can do with this format that you couldn't before. And I think removing the space-time bounds of convention space availability and the limited number of rooms that you can afford, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the budget this really does open up a very different way to get your message to market. >> It does, Jeff and what I'm excited about is what does it mean for the future of events overall? I think there's going to be some very valuable lessons learned for all of us in the industry and I expect just like work won't be the same when we return back to the office, post-pandemic. I don't think the events approach that companies take is going to be quite the same as it was previous and I think that'll be a good thing. There'll be a lot of lessons learned about how people want to engage, how to reach new segments, as you mentioned. And so I think you'll see a blended events strategy from companies across the industry going forward. >> Yeah. And to your point, event was part of your communication strategy, right? It was part of your marketing strategy it is part of your sales strategy so that doesn't necessarily all have to again be bundled into one week in May and can be separated. Well, Tim really, really enjoyed the conversation I have to say your blog posts had some really kind of really positive things in it in terms of the way people should be thinking about their employees not as resources but as people which is one of my pet peeves I'm not a big fan of the human resources word and I really was encouraged by some of the stuff coming out of this 2035 I think you said it's going to be an ongoing project so it'll be great to see what continues to come out because I don't know how much of that was done prior to COVID or kind of augmented after COVID but I would imagine the acceleration on the Delta is going to go up dramatically over the next several months or certainly over the next couple of years. >> Yeah, Jeff, I would say I think Winston Churchill said it best "Never waste a good crisis." And smart companies are doing that right now. I think there's going to be a lot of lessons learned there's going to be a lot of acceleration of the digital transformation and the work model transformations and the business model transformations that companies have had on the radar but haven't really been motivated to do so. And they're really accelerating those now I think that the world of work and the world of IT is going to look a heck of a lot different when we emerge from all of this. >> Yep, yep. I agree well, Tim thank you again for sharing your insight, sharing your information and is great to catch up. >> You too. >> Alright, take care. >> I know. >> He's Tim, I'm Jeff you're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching we'll see you next time.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The steepest drop in the stock market since June 11th flipped the narrative and sent investors scrambling. Tech got hammered after a two-month run, and people are asking questions. Is this a bubble popping, or is it a healthy correction? Are we now going to see a rotation into traditional stocks, like banks and maybe certain cyclicals that have lagged behind the technology winners? Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Wikibon's CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we want to give you our perspective on what's happening in the technology space and unpack what this sentiment flip means for the balance of 2020 and beyond. Let's look at what happened on September 3rd, 2020. The tech markets recoiled this week as the NASDAQ Composite dropped almost 5% in a single day. Apple's market cap alone lost $178 billion. The Big Four: Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, and Google lost a combined value that approached half a trillion dollars. For context, this number is larger than the gross domestic product for countries as large as Thailand, Iran, Austria, Norway, and even the UAE, and many more. The tech stocks that have been running due to COVID, well, they got crushed. These are the ones that we've highlighted as best positioned to thrive during the pandemic, you know, the work-from-home, SaaS, cloud, security stocks. We really have been talking about names like Zoom, ServiceNow, Salesforce, DocuSign, Splunk, and the security names like CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler. By the way, DocuSign and CrowdStrike and Okta all had nice earnings beats, but they still got killed underscoring the sentiment shift. Now the broader tech market was off as well on sympathy, and this trend appears to be continuing into the Labor Day holiday. Now why is this happening, and why now? Well, there are a lot of opinions on this. And first, many, like myself, are relatively happy because this market needed to take a little breather. As we've said before, the stock market, it's really not reflecting the realities of the broader economy. Now as we head into September in an election year, uncertainty kicks in, but it really looks like this pullback was fueled by a combination of an overheated market and technical factors. Specifically, take a look at volatility indices. They were high and rising, yet markets kept rising along with them. Robinhood millennial investors who couldn't bet on sports realized that investing in stocks was as much of a rush and potentially more lucrative. The other big wave, which was first reported by the Financial Times, is that SoftBank made a huge bet on tech and bought options tied to around $50 billion worth of high-flying tech stocks. So the option call volumes skyrocketed. The call versus put ratio was getting way too hot, and we saw an imbalance in the market. Now market makers will often buy an underlying stock to hedge call options to ensure liquidity in these cases. So to be more specific, delta in options is a measure of the change in the price of an option relative to the underlying stock, and gamma is a measure of the volatility of the delta. Now usually, volatility is relatively consistent on both sides of the trade, the calls and the puts, because investors often hedge their bets. But in the case of many of these hot stocks, like Tesla, for example, you've seen the call skew be much greater than the skew in the downside. So let's take an example. If people are buying cheap out of the money calls, a market maker might buy the underlying stock to hedge for liquidity. And then if Elon puts out some good news, which he always does, the stock goes up. Market makers have to then buy more of the underlying stock. And then algos kick in to buy even more. And then the price of the call goes up. And as it approaches it at the money price, this forces market makers to keep buying more of that underlying stock. And then the melt up until it stops. And then the market flips like it did this week. When stock prices begin to drop, then market makers were going to rebalance their portfolios and their risk and sell their underlying stocks, and then the rug gets pulled out from the markets. And that's really why some of the stocks that have run dropped so precipitously. Okay, why did I spend so much time on this, and why am I not freaking out? Because I think these market moves are largely technical versus fundamental. It's not like 1999. We had a double whammy of technical rug pulls combined with poor underlying fundamentals for high-flying companies like CMGI and Internet Capital Group, whose businesses, they were all about placing bets on dot-coms that had no business models other than non-monetizable eyeballs. All right, let's take a look at the NASDAQ and dig into the data a little bit. And I think you'll see what I mean and why I'm not too concerned. This is a year-to-date chart of the NASDAQ, and you can see it bottomed on March 23rd at 6,860. And then ran up until June 11th and had that big drop, but was still elevated at 9,492. And then it ran up to over 12,000 and hit an all-time high. And then you see the big drop. And that trend continued on Friday morning. The NASDAQ Composite traded below 11,000. It actually corrected to 10% of its high, 9.8% to be precise, and then it snapped back. But even at its low, that's still up over 20% for the year. In the year of COVID, would that have surprised you in March? It certainly would have surprised me. So to me, this pullback is sort of a relief. It's good and actually very normal and quite predictable. Now the exact timing of these pullbacks, of course, on the other hand is not entirely predictable. Not at all, frankly, at least for this observer. So the big question is where do we go from here? So let's talk about that a little bit. Now the economy continues to get better. Take a look at the August job report; it was good. 1.4 million new jobs, 340,000 came from the government. That was positive numbers. And the other good news is it translates into a drop in unemployment under 10%. It's now at 8.4%. And this is really good relative to expectations. Now the sell-off continued, which suggested that the market wanted to keep correcting, so that's good. Maybe some buying opportunities would emerge in over the next several months, the market snapped back, but for those who have been waiting, I think that's going to happen. And so that snapback, maybe that's an indicator that the market wants to keep going up, we'll see. But I think there are more opportunities ahead because there's really so much uncertainty. What's going to happen with the next round of the stimulus? The jobs report, maybe that's a catalyst for compromise between the Democrats and the Republicans, maybe. The US debt is projected to exceed 100% of GDP this calendar year. That's the highest it's been since World War II. Does that give you a good feeling? That doesn't give me a good feeling. And when we talk about the election, that brings additional uncertainty. So there's a lot to think about for the markets. Now let's talk about what this means for tech. Well, as we've been projecting for months with our colleagues at ETR, despite what's going on in the stock market and its rise, there's those real tech winners, we still see a contraction in 2020 for IT spend of minus 5 to 8%. And we talk a lot about the bifurcation in the market due to COVID accelerating some of these trends that were already in place, like digital transformation and SaaS and cloud. And then the work-from-home kicks in with other trends like video conferencing and the shift to security spend. And we think this is going to continue for years. However, because these stocks have run up so much, they're going to have very tough compares in 2021. So maybe time for a pause. Now let's take a look at the IT spending macroeconomics. This data is from a series of surveys that ETR conducted to try to better understand spending patterns due to COVID. Those yellow slices of the pies show the percent of customers that indicate that their budgets will be impacted by coronavirus. And you can see there's a steady increase from mid-March, which blend into April, and then you can see the June data. It goes from 63% saying yes, which is very high, to 78%, which is very, very high. And the bottom part of the chart shows the degree of that change. So 22% say no change in the latest survey, but you can see much more of a skew to the red declines on the left versus the green upticks on the right-hand side of the chart. Now take a look at how IT buyers are seeing the response to the pandemic. This chart shows what companies are doing as a result of COVID in another recent ETR survey. Now of course, it's no surprise, everybody's working from home. Nobody's traveling for business, not nobody, but most people aren't, we know that. But look at the increase in hiring freezes and freezing new IT deployments, and the sharp rise in layoffs. So IT is yet again being asked to do more with less. They're used to it. Well, we see this driving an acceleration to automation, and that's going to benefit, for instance, the RPA players, cloud providers, and modern software vendors. And it will also precipitate a tailwind for more aggressive AI implementations. And many other selected names are going to continue to do well, which we'll talk about in a second, but they're in the work-from-home, the cloud, the SaaS, and the modern data sectors. But the problem is those sectors are not large enough to offset the declines in the core businesses of the legacy players who have a much higher market share, so the overall IT spend declines. Now where it gets kind of interesting is the legacy companies, look, they all have growth businesses. They're making acquisitions, they're making other bets. IBM, for example, has its hybrid cloud business in Red Hat, Dell has VMware and it's got work-from-home solutions, Oracle has SaaS and cloud, Cisco has its security business, HPE, it's as a service initiative, and so forth. And again, these businesses are growing faster, but they are not large enough to offset the decline in core on-prem legacy and drive anything more than flat growth, overall, for these companies at best. And by the time they're large enough, we'll be into the next big thing, so the cycle continues. But these legacy companies are going to compete with the upstarts, and that's where it gets interesting. So let's get into some of the specific names that we've been talking about for over a year now and make some comments around their prospects. So what we want to do is let's start with one of our favorites: Snowflake. Now Snowflake, along with Asana, JFrog, Sumo Logic, and Unity, has a highly anticipated upcoming IPO. And this chart shows new adoptions in the database sector. And you can see that Snowflake, while down from the October 19th survey, is far outpacing its competitors, with the exception of Google, where BigQuery is doing very well. But you see Mongo and AWS remain strong, and I'm actually quite encouraged that it looks like Cloudera has righted the ship and you kind of saw that in their earnings recently. But my point is that Snowflake is a share gainer, and we think will likely continue to be one for a number of quarters and years if they can execute and compete with the big cloud players, and that's a topic that we've covered extensively in previous Breaking Analysis segments, and, as you know, we think Snowflake can compete. Now let's look at automation. This is another space that we've been talking about quite a bit, and we've largely focused on two leaders: UiPath and Automation Anywhere. But I have to say, I still like Blue Prism. I think they're well-positioned. And I especially like Pegasystems, which has, for years, been embarking on a broader automation agenda. What this chart shows is net score or spending velocity data for those customers who said they were decreasing spend in 2020. Those red bars that we showed earlier are the ones who are decreasing. And you can see both Automation Anywhere and UiPath show elevated levels within that base where spending is declining, so that's a real positive. Now Microsoft, as we've reported, is elbowing its way into the market with what is currently an inferior point product, but, you know, it's Microsoft, so we can't ignore that. And finally, let's have a look at the all-important security sector, which we've covered extensively and put out a report recently. So what this next chart does is cherry-picks of a few of our favorite names, and it shows the net score or spending momentum and the granularity for some of the leaders and emerging players. All of these players are in the green, as you can see in the upper right, and they all have decent presence in the dataset as indicated by the shared NS. Okta is at the top of the list with 58% net score. Palo Alto, they're a more mature player, but still, they have an elevated net score. CrowdStrike's net score dropped this quarter, which was a bit of a concern, but it's still high. And it followed by SailPoint and Zscaler, who are right there. The big three trends in this space right now are cloud security, identity access management, and endpoint security. Those are the tailwinds, and we think these trends have legs. Remember, net score in this survey is a forward-looking metric, so we'll come back and look at the next survey, which is running this month in the field from ETR. Now everyone on this chart has reported earnings, except Zscaler, which reports on September 9th, and all of these companies are doing well and exceeding expectations, but as I said earlier, next year's compares won't be so easy. Oh, and by the way, their stock prices, they all got killed this week as a result of the rug pull that we explained earlier. So we really feel this isn't a fundamental problem for these firms that we're talking about. It's more of a technical in the market. Now Automation Anywhere and UiPath, you really don't know because they're not public and I think they need to get their house in order so they can IPO, so we'll see when they make it to public markets. I don't think that's an if, that I think they will IPO, but the fact that they haven't filed yet says they're not ready. Now why wouldn't you IPO if you are ready in this market despite the recent pullbacks? Okay, let's summarize. So listen, all you new investors out there that think stock picking is easy, look, any fool can make money in a market that goes up every day, but trees don't grow to the moon and there are bulls and bears and pigs, and pigs get slaughtered. And I can throw a dozen other cliches at you, but I am excited that you're learning. You maybe have made a few bucks playing the options game. It's not as easy as you might think. And I'm hoping that you're not trading on margin. But look, I think there are going to be some buying opportunities ahead, there always are, be patient. It's very hard, actually impossible, to time markets, and I'm a big fan of dollar-cost averaging. And young people, if you make less than $137,000 a year, load up on your Roth, it's a government gift that I wish I could have tapped when I was a newbie. And as always, please do your homework. Okay, that's it for today. Remember, these episodes, they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, so please subscribe. I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, so check that out, and please do comment on my LinkedIn posts. Don't forget, check out etr.plus for all the survey action. Get in touch on Twitter, I'm @dvellante, or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, everyone. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (gentle upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a Cube conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. And as you know, I've been running a CxO series in this COVID economy. And as we go into the post-isolation world, really want to focus and expand our scope and really look at startups. And of course, we're going to look at startups, let's follow the money. And I want to start with the investor. Mark Roberge is here. He's the managing director at Stage 2 capital. He's a professor at the Harvard Business School, former CRO over at HubSpot. Mark, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, you bet, Dave. Thanks for having me. >> So I love that, you know... looking at your career a little bit, on your LinkedIn and following some of your videos, I love the fact that you did, and now you teach and you're also applying it with Stage 2 Capital. Tell us a little bit more about both of your career and Stage 2. >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of it's a bit serendipitous, especially last 10 years, but I've always had this learn, do, teach framework in my, in mind as I go through the decades of my career, you know, like you're probably like 80% learning in your twenties, early thirties and you know, 20% doing. Then, you know, I think my thirties was like leading the HubSpot sales team, a lot of doing, a little bit of teaching, you know, kind of hopping into different schools, et cetera, and also doing a lot of, some writing. And now like, I'm teaching it. I think investing kind of falls into that too, you know, where you've got this amazing opportunity to meet, the next generation of, of extraordinary entrepreneurs and engage with them. So yeah, that, that has been my career. You know, Dave, I've been a, passionate entrepreneur since 22 and then, the last one I did was HubSpot and that led to just an opportunity to build out one of the first sales teams in a complete inside environment, which opened up the doors for a data driven mindset and all this innovation that led to a book that led to recruitment on HBS's standpoint, to like come and teach that stuff, which was such a humbling honor to pursue. And that led to me a meeting my co-founder, Jay Po, of Stage 2 Capital, who was a customer to essentially start the first VC fund, running back by sales and marketing leaders, which was his vision. But when he proposed it to me, addressed a pretty sizeable void, that I saw, in the entrepreneur ecosystem that I thought could make a substantial impact to the success rate of startups. >> Great, I want to talk a little bit about how you guys compete and what's different there, but you know, I've read some of your work, looked at some of your videos, and we can bring that into the conversation. But I think you've got some real forward-thinking for example, on the, you know, the best path to the upper right. The upper right, being that, that xy-axis on growth and adoption, you know, do you go for hyper-growth or do you go for adoption? How you align sales and marketing, how you compensate salespeople. I think you've got some, some leading-edge thinking on that, that I'd love for you to bring into the conversation, but let's start with Stage 2. I mean, how do you compete with the big guys? What's different about Stage 2 Capital? >> Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, we're a bunch of sales and marketing and execs. I mean, our backing is, a hundred plus CROs, VPs of marketing, CMOs from, from the public companies. I mean, Dropbox, LinkedIn, Oracle, Salesforce, SurveyMonkey, Lyft, Asana, I mean, just pick a unicorn, we probably have some representation from it. So that's, a big part of how we compete, is most of the time, when a rocket ship startup is about to build a sales team, one of our LPs gets a call. And because of that, we get a call, right. And, and so there's, we're just deep in, in helping... So first off, assess the potential and risks of a startup in their current, go to market design, and then really, you know, stepping in, not just with capital, but a lot of know-how in terms of, you know, how to best develop this go-to-market for their particular context. So that's a big part of our differentiation. I don't think we've ever lost a deal that we tried to get into, you know, for that reason, just because we come in at the right stage, that's right for our value prop. I'd say Dave, the biggest, sort of difference, in our investing theme. And this really comes out of like, post HubSpot. In addition to teaching the HBS, I did parachute into a different startup every quarter, for one day, where you can kind of like assess their go-to-market, looking for, like, what is the underlying consistency of those series A businesses that become unicorns versus those that flatline. And if I, you know, I've now written like 50 pages on it, which I, you know, we can, we can highlight to the crew, but the underlying cliffnotes is really, the avoidance of a premature focus on top line revenue growth, and an acute focus early on, on customer attention. And, I think like, for those of you, who run in that early stage venture community these days, and especially in Silicon Valley, there's this like, triple, triple, double, double notion of, like year one, triple revenue, year two, triple revenue, year three, double revenue, year four, double revenue, it's kind of evolved to be like the holy grail of what your objectives should be. And I do think like there is a fraction of companies that are ready for that and a large amount of them that, should they pursue that path, will lead to failure. And, and so, we take a heavy lens toward world-class customer retention as a prerequisite, to any sort of triple, triple, double, double blitzscaling type model. >> So, let me ask you a couple of questions there. So it sounds like your LPs are heavily, not only heavily and financially invested, but also are very active. I mean, is that a, is that a fears thing? How active are the LPs in reality? I mean, they're busy people. They're they're software operators. >> Yeah. >> Do they really get involved in businesses? >> Absolutely. I mean, half of our deals that we did in fund one came from the LPs. So we get half of our funnel, comes from LPs. Okay. So it's always like source-pick-win-support. That's like, what basically a VC does. And our LPs are involved in every piece of that. Any deal that we do, we'll bring in four or five of our LPs to help us with diligence, where they have particular expertise in. So we did an insuretech company in Q4, one of our LPs runs insurance practice at Workday. And this particular play he's selling it to big insurance companies. He was extremely helpful, to understand that domain. Post investment, we always bring in four or five LPs to go deeper than I can on a particular topic. So one of our plays is about to stand up in account based marketing, you know, capability. So we brought in the CMO, a former CMO at Rapid7 and the CMO at Unisys, both of which have, stood in, stood up like, account based marketing practices, much more deeply, than I could. You know of course, we take the time to get to know our LPs and understand both their skills, and experiences as well as their willingness to help, We have Jay Simons, who's the President of Atlassian. He doesn't have like hours every quarter, he's running a $50 billion company, right? So we have Brian Halligan, the CEO of HubSpot, right? He's running a $10 billion company now. So, we just get deal flow from them and maybe like an event once or twice a year, versus I would say like 10 to 20% of our LPs are like that. I would say 60% of them are active operators who are like, "You know what? I just miss the early days, and if I could be active with one or two companies a quarter, I would love that." And I would say like a quarter of them are like semi-retired and they're like, they're choosing between helping our company and being on the boat or the golf course. >> Is this just kind of a new model? Do you see having a different philosophy where you want to have a higher success rate? I mean, of course everybody wants to have a, you know, bat a thousand. >> Yeah. >> But I wonder if you could address that. >> Yeah. I don't think it, I'm not advocating slower growth, but just healthier growth. And it's just like an extra, it's really not different than sort of the blitzscaling oriented San Francisco VC, okay? So, you know, I would say when we were doing startups in the nineties, early 2000s before The Lean Startup, we would have this idea and build it in a room for a year and then sell it in parallel, basically sell it everywhere and Eric Ries and The Lean Startup changed all that. Like he introduced MVPs and pivots and agile development and we quickly moved to, a model of like, yeah, when you have this idea, it's not like... You're really learning, keep the team small, keep the burn low, pivot, pivot, pivot, stay agile and find product-market fit. And once you do that, scale. I would say even like, West Coast blitzscaling oriented VCs, I agree with that. My only take is... We're not being scientifically rigorous, on that transition point. Go ask like 10 VCs or 10 entrepreneurs, what's product-market fit, and you'll get 10 different answers. And you'll get answers like when you have lots of sales, I just, profoundly disagree with that. I think, revenue in sales has very little to do with product-market fit. That's like, that's like message-market fit. Like selling ice to Eskimos. If I can sell ice to Eskimos, it doesn't mean that product-market fit. The Eskimos didn't need the ice. It just means I was good at like pitching, right? You know, other folks talk about like, having a workable product in a big market. It's just too qualitative. Right? So, that's all I'm advocating is, that, I think almost all entrepreneurs and investors agree, there's this incubation, rapid learning stage. And then there's this thing called product-market fit, where we switch to rapid scale. And all I'm advocating is like more scientist science and rigor, to understanding some sequences that need to be checked off. And a little bit more science and rigor on what is the optimal pace of scale. Because when it comes to scale, like pretty much 50 out of 50 times, when I talk to a series A company, they have like 15 employees, two sales reps, they got to like 2 million in revenue. They raise an 8 million-dollar round in series A, and they hired 12 salespeople the next month. You know, and Dave, you and your brother, who runs a large sales team, can really understand how that's going to failure almost all the time. (Dave mumbles) >> Like it's just... >> Yeah it's a killer. >> To be able to like absorb 10 reps in a month, being a 50, it's just like... Who even does all those interviews? Who onboards them? Who manages them? How do we feed them with demand? Like these are some of the things I just think, warrant more data and science to drive the decisions on when and how fast to scale. >> Mark, what is the key indicator then, of product-market fit? Is it adoption? Is it renewal rates? >> Yeah. It's retention in my opinion. Right? So, so the, the very simple framework that I require is you're ready to scale when you have product-market and go to market-fit. And let's be, extremely precise, and rigorous on the definitions. So, product-market fit for me, the best metric is retention. You know, that essentially means someone not only purchased your offering, but experienced your offering. And, after that experience decided to repurchase. Whether they buy more from you or they renew or whatever it is. Now, the problem with it is, in many, like in the world we live inside's, it's like, the retention rate of the customers we acquire this quarter is not evident for a year. Right, and we don't have a year to learn. We don't have a year to wait and see. So what we have to do is come up with a leading indicator to customer retention. And that's something that I just hope we see more entrepreneurs talking about, in their product market fit journey. And more investors asking about, is what is your lead indicator to customer retention? Cause when that gets checked off, then I believe you have product-market fit, okay? So, there's some documentation on some unicorns that have flirted with this. I think Silicon Valley calls it the aha moment. That's great. Just like what. So like Slack, an example, like, the format I like to use for the lead indicator of customer retention is P percent of customers, do E event, in T time, okay? So, it basically boils it down to those three variables, P E T. So if we bring that to life and humanize it, 70% of the customers, we sign up, this is Slack, 70% of the customers who sign up, send 2000 team messages in 30 days, if that happens, we have product-market fit. I like that a lot more, than getting to a million in revenue or like having a workable product in a big market. Dropbox, 85% of customers, share one file in one hour. HubSpot, I know this was the case, 75% of customers, use five or more of the 25 features in the platform, within 60 days. Okay? P percent, do E event, in T time. So, if we can just format that, and look at that through customer cohorts, we often get visibility into, into true product market-fit within weeks, if not like a month or two. And it's scientifically, data-driven in terms of his foundation. >> Love it. And then of course, you can align sales compensation, you know, with that retention. You've talked a lot about that, in some of your work. I want to get into some of the things that stage two is doing. You invest in SaaS companies. If I understand it correctly, it's not necessarily early stage. You're looking for companies that have sort of achieved some degree of revenue and now need help. It needs some operational help and scaling. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Yeah. So it's a little bit broader in size, as any sort of like B2B software, any software company that's scaling through a sales team. I mean, look at our backers and look at my background. That's, that's what we have experience in. So not really any consumer plays. And yeah, I mean, we're not, we have a couple product LPs. We have a couple of CFO type LPs. We have a couple like talent HR LPs, but most of us are go-to-market. So we don't, you know, there's awesome seed funds out there that help people set up their product and engineering team and go from zero to one in terms of the MVP and find product-market fit. Right? We like to come in right after that. So it's usually like between the seed and the A, usually the revenue is between half a million and 1.5 million. And of course we put an extraordinary premium on customer retention, okay? Whereas I think most of our peers put an extraordinary premium on top line revenue growth. We put an extraordinary premium on retention. So if I find a $700,000 business that, you know, has whatever 50, 70 customers, you know, depending on their ticket size, it has like North of 90% local retention. That's super exciting. Even if they're only growing like 60%, it's super exciting. >> What's a typical size of investments. Do you typically take board seats or not? >> Yeah. We typically put in like between like seven hundred K, one and a half million, in the first check and then have, larger amounts for follow on. So on the A and the B. We try not to take board's seats to be honest with you, but instead the board observers. It's a little bit selfish in terms of our funds scale. Like the general counsel from other venture capitalists is of course, like, the board seat is there for proper governance in terms of like, having some control over expenditures and acquisition conversations, et cetera, or decisions. But a lot of people who have had experience with boards know that they're very like easy and time efficient when the company is going well. And there are a ton of work when the company is not going well. And it really hurts the scale, especially on a smaller fund like us. So we do like to have board observers seats, and we go to most of the board meetings so that our voice is heard. But as long as there's another fund in there that, has, world-class track record in terms of, holding proper governance at the board level, we prefer to defer to them on that. >> All right, so the COVID lock down, hit really in earnest in March, of course, we all saw the Sequoia memo, The Black Swan memo. You were, I think it HubSpot, when, you remember the Rest In Peace Good Times memo, came out very sort of negative, put up all over the industry, you know, stop spending. But there was some other good advice in there. I don't mean to sort of, go too hard on that, but, it was generally a negative sentiment. What was your advice to your portfolio companies, when COVID hit, what were you telling them? >> Yeah, I summarized this in our lead a blog article. We kicked off our blog, which is partially related to COVID in April, which has kind of summarize these tips. So yes, you are correct, Dave. I was running sales at HubSpot in '08 when we had last sort of major economic, destabilization. And I was freaking out, you know (laughs briefly) at the time we were still young, like 20, 30 reps and numbers to chase. And... I was, actually, after that year, looking back, we are very fortunate that we had a value prop that was very recession-proof. We were selling to the small business community, who at the time was cutting everything except new ways to generate sales. And we happen to have the answer to that and it happened to work, right? So it showed me that, there's different levels of being recession proof. And we accelerated the raise of our second fund for stage two with the anticipation that there would be a recession, which, you know, in the venture world, some of the best things you could do is close a fund and then go into a recession, because, there's more deals out there. The valuations are lower and it's much easier to understand, nice to have versus must have value props. So, the common theme I saw in talking to my peers who looked back in the '01 crisis, as well as the '08 crisis, a year later was not making a bolder decision to reorient their company in the current times. And usually on the go-to-market, that's two factors, the ICP who you're selling to, ideal customer profile and the CVP, what your message is, what's your customer value prop. And that was really, in addition to just stabilizing cash positions and putting some plans in there. That was the biggest thing we pushed our portfolio on was, almost like going through the exercise, like it's so hard as a human, to have put like nine months into a significant investment leading up to COVID and now the outcome of that investment is no longer relevant. And it's so hard to let that go. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> But you have to, you have to. And now it's everything from like, you spent two years learning how to sell to this one persona. And now that persona is like, gyms, retail and travel companies. Like you've got to let that go. (chuckle simultaneously) You know what I mean? Like, and, you know, it's just like... So that's really what we had to push folks on was just, you know, talking to founders and basically saying this weekend, get into a great headspace and like, pretend like you were parachuted into your company as a fresh CEO today. And look around and appreciate the world and what it is. What is this world? What are the buyers talking about? Which markets are hot, which markets are not, look at the assets that you have, look at your product, look at your staff, look at your partners, look at your customer base, and come up with a strategy from the ground up based on that. And forget about everything you've done in the last year. Right? And so, that's really what we pushed hard on. And in some cases, people just like jumped right on it. It was awesome. We had a residential real estate company that within two weeks, stood up a virtual open house module that sold like hotcakes. >> Yeah. >> That was fantastic execution. And we had other folks that we had to have like three meetings with to push them deep enough, to go more boldly. But that, was really the underlying pattern that I saw in past, recessions and something I pushed the portfolio on, is just being very bold on your pivots. >> Right? So I wanted to ask you how your portfolio companies are doing. I'm imagining you saw some looked at this opportunity as a tailwind. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned the virtual, open house, a saw that maybe were exposed, had, revenue exposure to hard-hit industries and others kind of in the middle. How are your portfolio companies doing? >> Yes, strong. I'm trying to figure out, like, of course I'm going to say that, but I'm trying to figure out like how to provide quant, to just demonstrate that. We were fortunate that we had no one, and this was just dumb luck. I mean, we had no one exclusively selling to like travel, or, restaurants or something. That's just bad luck if you were, and we're fortunate that we got a little lucky there, We put a big premium, obviously we had put a big premium on customer retention. And that, we always looked at that through our recession proof lens at all our investments. So I think that helped, but yeah, I mean, we've had, first off, we made one investment post COVID. That was the last investment on our first fund and that particular company, March, April, May, their results were 20% higher than any month in history. Those are the types of deals we're seeing now is like, you literally find some deals that are accelerating since COVID and you really just have to assess if it's permanent or temporary, but that one was exciting. We have a telemedicine company that's just like, really accelerating post COVID, again, luck, you know, in terms of just their alignment with the new world we're living in. And then, jeez! I mean, we've had, I think four term sheets, for markups in our portfolio since March. So I think that's a good sign. You know, we only made 11 investments and four of them, either have verbal or submitted term sheets on markups. So again, I feel like the portfolio is doing quite well, and I'm just trying to provide some quantitative measures. So it doesn't feel like a political answer. (Mark chuckles) >> Well, thank you for that, but now, how have you, or have you changed your sort of your thesis post COVID? Do you feel like your... >> Sure. >> Your approach was sort of geared towards, you know, this... >> Yeah. >> Post COVID environment? But what changes have you made. >> A little bit, like, I think in any bull market, generally speaking, there's just going to be a lot of like triple, triple, double, double blitzscaling, huge focus on top-line revenue growth. And in any down market, there's going to be a lot of focus on customer retention unit economics. Now we've always invested in the latter, so that doesn't change much. There's a couple of things that have changed. Number one, we do look for acceleration post COVID. Now, that obviously we were not, we weren't... That lens didn't exist pre-COVID, So in addition to like great retention, selling through a sales team, around the half million to a million revenue, we want to see acceleration since COVID and we'll do diligence to understand if that's a permanent, or a temporary advantage. I would say like... Markets like San Francisco, I think become more attractive in post COVID. There's just like, San Francisco has some magic happening there's some VC funds that avoid it, cause it's too expensive. There's some VC funds that only invest in San Francisco, because there's magic happening. We've always just been, you know... we have two portfolio companies there that have done well. Like we look at it and if it's too expensive, we have to avoid it. But we do agree that there's magic happening. I did look at a company last week. (chuckles inaudibly) So Dave, there are 300K in revenue, and their last valuation is 300 million. (both chuckle) >> Okay, so why is San Francisco more attractive, Mark? >> Well, I mean and those happened in Boston too. >> We looked at... (Mark speaks inaudibly) >> I thought you were going to tell me the valuations were down. (Dave speaks inaudibly) >> Here's the deal all right, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't and this is one, but in general, I think like they have come down. And honestly, the other thing that's happened is good entrepreneurs that weren't raising are now raising. Okay? So, a market like that I think becomes more attractive. The other thing that I think that happens is your sort of following strategies different. Okay so, there is some statistical evidence that, you know, obviously we're coming out of a bear market, a bullish market in, in both the public and the private equities. And there's been a lot of talk about valuations in the private sector is just outrageous. And so, you know, we're fortunate that we come in at this like post seed, pre-A, where it's not as impacted. It is, but not as or hasn't been, but because there's so many more multibillion-dollar funds that have to deploy 30 to 50 million per investment, there's a lot of heating up that's happened at that stage. Okay? And so pre COVID, we would have taken advantage of that by taking either all or some of our money off the table, in these following growth rounds. You know, as an example, we had a company that we made an investment with around 30 million evaluation and 18 months later, they had a term sheet for 500. So that's a pretty good return in 18 months. And you know, that's an expensive, you know, so that that's like, wow, you know, we probably, even though we're super bullish on the company, we may want to take off a 2X exposition... >> Yeah. >> And take advantage of the secondaries. And the other thing that happens here, as you pointed out, Dave is like, risk is not, it doesn't become de-risk with later rounds. Like these big billion dollar funds come in, they put pressure on very aggressive strategic moves that sometimes kills companies and completely outside of our control. So it's not that we're not bullish on the company, it's just that there's new sets of risks that are outside of the scope of our work. And so, so that that's probably like a less, a lesser opportunity post COVID and we have to think longer term and have more patient capital, as we navigate the next year or so of the economy. >> Yeah, so we've got to wrap, but I want to better understand the relationship between the public markets and you've seen the NASDAQ up, which is just unbelievable when you look at what's happening in main street, and the relationship between the public markets and the private markets, are you saying, they're sort of tracking, but not really identical. I mean, what's the relationship. >> Okay, there's a hundred, there's thousands of people that are better at that than me. Like the kind of like anecdotal thoughts that I, or the anecdotal narrative that I've heard in past recessions and actually saw too, was the private market, when the public market dropped, it took nine months roughly for the private market to correct. Okay, so there was a lag. And so there's, some arguments that, that would happen here, but this is just a weird situation, right? Of like the market, even though we're going through societal crazy uncertainty, turmoil and, and tremendous tragedy, the markets did drop, but they're pretty hot right now, specifically in tech. And so there's a number of schools of thoughts there that like some people claim that tech is like the utilities companies of the eighties, where it's just a necessity and it's always going to be there regardless of the economy. Some people argue that what's happened with COVID and the remote workplace have made, you know, accelerated the adoption of tech, the inevitable adoption, and others could argue that like, you know, the worst is still the come. >> Yeah. And of course, you've got The Fed injecting so much liquidity into the system, low interest rates, Mark, last question. Give me a pro tip for entrepreneurs. (Mark Sighs) >> I would say, like, we've talked a lot about, this methodology with, you know, customer retention, really focusing there, align everything there as opposed to top line revenue growth initially. I think that the extension I do at this point is, do your diligence on your investors, and what their thoughts are on your future growth plans to see if they're aligned. Cause that, that becomes like, I think a lot of entrepreneurs, when they dig into this work, they do want to operate around it. But that becomes that much harder when you have investors that think a different way. So I would just, you know, just always keep in mind that, you know, I know it's so hard to raise money, but you know, do the diligence on your investors to understand, what they'd like to see in the next two years and how it's aligned with your own vision. >> Mark is really great having you on. I'd love to have you back and as this thing progresses, and see how it all shakes out. It really a pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> No, thanks, Dave. I appreciate you having me on. >> And thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time. (music plays)

>>live from Seattle, Washington. It's the key nude covering smartsheet engaged 2019. Brought to you by Smartsheet. >>Hello, everyone. We are wrapping up one day of coverage at Smartsheet. Engage here in Seattle. I'm Rebecca Knight. Been coasting all day with Jeff Rick. It's been a pleasure sitting next to you together, and it has just been so much fun. It's a great show. >>And you've never been to Seattle before >>my time in the city? Exactly. So you've >>covered this space, Rebecca, in your in your non key black for a very long time. So first off, you know, kind of general impressions of new way to work. We hear about it every show we got to talk about new way to work. So, you know, kind of your global perspective a little bit and then, you know, kind of some takeaways from some of the conversations today. >>Well, we know that the situation is pretty bleak right now that there are the statistics are horrible just in terms of the number of employees that are really checked out, totally disengaged, would would love to quit, but they need the health insurance. And so we're already sort of starting from from a pretty low place, where in terms of people's engagement at work, and I think a lot of the things that that drive people nuts about their work. Uh, of course, is a bad boss and not a great parking spot and everything, but it's it's it's it's the little things that get in your way of doing your job. And it's it's the things that just drive you nuts about some sort of process that takes forever. And, oh, I have to keep doing this. And I just already sent you that email and how come you're looking at this other version? And it's all those impediments that really drive people crazy and that makes people stressed out and and unhappy in their jobs. So I do think that if you are a company like Smartsheet and you have you realized this and you can slowly chip away at those impediments and the aggregate aggravate aggravations that people feel, I think that's not a bad business model. I think I think they're on to something here. Don't worry, though >>sometimes is just is just additive, right? It's just another thing we talked. It's one of the interviews. And when I'm at work, I have three big monitors, each one split into two screens. I've got mail open calendar, open sales force open, slack open asana open YouTube. Twitter. Um, it's probably a couple. And then if I have to, like, look something up and and you know there's this kind of constant confusion is what it what is the screen that's open when you work? And it used to just be e mail, which is not a good solution at all. So I think if if you know, they can become the place that people do, their work right, and we talked about all the integrations like it's that integrate with slack. So maybe you know, the people that work primarily and slacker primarily there, and maybe the people in some other department are primarily on spark cheat, and somebody else is primarily on another tool. But it just seems still like keep adding, tourists were not necessarily taking a lot of them away. >>Well, that will be the job for Anna Griffin, who is the first ever cmo this company. You just started in April, and she's got her work cut out for her because you're right. There are a lot of screens. That's that does not describe my work day. But I know it describes a lot of people's work day, Um, and that that that will be. What she needs to figure out is how to be your number one You're going to the one that you rely on to get your job done. >>The part that I took away from her interview is really She talked a lot about engagement, and you just talked about engagement, an empowerment, you know, not only not only getting the obstacles out of the way, but making me feel like what I do matters, matters to me, matters to my boss, matters to my clients and matters. And then I think that does finally drive to innovation, which is the Holy Grail that everyone talks about. But it's really not that easy to execute. >>Everyone wants more innovative, of course, >>and then the last thing which she talked about, why part of the reason why she came here? His leadership. But I think the way we really can't have this conversation around engagement without talking about leadership, because it's such a critical piece to the puzzle for everyone to rally around, you know, a mission. So this is the execution details. But you also need some type of a mission that you can feel good about, as well as feeling that you can contribute to. >>Absolutely. And I think that what you were just talking about with the ownership piece and so these air these employees, as we said, they're removing the impediments to their job. But then they're also able to then focus on higher level tasks, assignments, thinking, strategy. They're able to use their brains for what they were hired for, not thinking about certain tasks and other files that are old versions. And so if they if they could do those things and then, as you said, feel like they matter, feel like that work, they matters to their boss. However, you are right in that if you got a bad boss, all bets are off. If it works, still gonna stink and you're there. There's nothing you can do about it. >>The other piece that came up, which I was interesting, is really about prioritization. What and what do you optimizing for? And my favorite part of Clayton Christian since Innovator's dilemma, is the conversation about that you must prioritize. You cannot engineer for everything equally, and you have to force up. That pressurization, I think, is interesting here about Smart Cheat is for all the talk about digital transformation. Most people talk about the products, and service is that they sell. They talk about the engagement with their customers. They don't talk about transforming the life of their employees and the way their employees get stepped on and the way the employees actually engage with the company through the applications. And I thought that was a really interesting and insightful take, especially in the day where everything is a service. And again your people walk out the door every night and you hope they come back the next day. So I think, you know, spinning the digital transformation story into more of an employee enable men and engagement story is pretty powerful. >>You I could not agree more because because that that is the critical piece. If you have a bunch of people coming to work every day who hate their jobs, they're not gonna be giving your customers the experience that you want their customers tohave. So it really does start with Happy workers, right? Andi, I think that I think smart. She really gets that. So that's that's what I am struck by today. >>Yeah, it's just those other ones that we're going to bring along. And Dion may have made a good point and said, You know, some people don't want to be engaged work. Some people don't want >>you >>next level things like that they like their roads in the routine gives him comfort. They come to work, they do the road in the routine and they go home. So it's gonna be interesting. Time for those peoples can reach it in time for people to not necessarily have expertise in a broad range of categories formerly siloed categories like product marketing, product management, finance sales, biz, Dev production. But you least have tohave in a kind of an inch. De Milo gave those teams. So you put together a SWAT team, if you will, to accomplish the task. And that's what I'm curious to see. Some of the 4 51 research that how how he was pointing to kind of a restructuring of the silos of teams and organizations within it within a company that We don't hear much about how that's going to restructure on kind of a dev ops, fast assembly, fast, complete kind of assemble and disassemble around projects, which is what Dev Ops says. We'll see you know how that how that impacts organizational structure. >>And I think that could be very cool and very different, particularly with different. I mean, we know that diverse groups make better decisions than lone geniuses. And so if we have a bunch of people who have different perspectives, different levels of expertise and even if it's not expertise, it's just sort of a general knowledge about a lot of different things, right. We know that if we can get those people working together on a task, it's got a lot of potential. So I think I think you're right, right. >>Last thing is that I think really interesting. Here is the is the acknowledgment of team beyond even the company walls. So you've got your core team, you know, cross departmental collaboration, and then was a mere it over and over here here today, collaboration outside the walls to external teams. And it was Mark talking about putting on these big events mean there's so many external stakeholders in place holders and vendors involved in this humongous dance that becomes our enjoyment of the Final Four event. I think that's really insightful. Kind of take that. You have to have the ability to engage, collaborate with a large group or an extended group for any particular project. And And that really changes the way you think about what the application is high share information >>and that they all have to feel ownership in the process to yes, very >>important. All right, Rebecca. Well, >>this was so much fun. I Jeff, I had a great time working with you, and we had a great team. We had Andrew in Jay and Brendan and Taylor Welcome Taylor to the to the show. It was great. I can't wait to come back and do it again. >>It will be big next time. All right, >>Thanks. That is wrapping up our coverage of engaged 2019. I'm Rebecca Knight for Jeff. Rick. Thanks a lot for watching

>> from Burlingame, California It's the Cube covering Suma logic Illuminate 2019. Brought to You by Sumer Logic. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube worth, assume a logic illuminate 2019 of it. It's at the Hyatt Regency San Francisco airport. About 809 100 people are second year. It's a 30 year of the event, excited to be here and watch it grow. We've seen a bunch of these things grow from little to bigger over a number of years, and it's always funded kind of beer for the zenith. We're excited to do it by our next guest. She's an analyst. It's Nancy Goering, senior analyst for 4 51 research. Nancy, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Absolutely so first off, Just kind of impressions of the event here. >> Yeah, good stuff. You know, like he's definitely trying to, you know, get on top of some of the big trends. You know, The big news here was their new Cooper nineties monitoring, also obviously kind of staying on the the leading edge of the cloud. Native Technologies. >> It's it's amazing how fast it's growing, you know, doing some research for this. Then I found some of your stuff out on the Internet and just one quote. I think it's from years ago, but just for people to kind of understand the scale, I think, he said, Google was launching four billion containers a week. Twitter had 12,000. Service is uber 4000. Micro service is Yelp and Justin 25 million data points per minute. I think this is like a two or three year old presentation. I mean, the scale in which the data is moving is astronomical. >> Yeah, well, I mean, if you think of Google launching four billion containers every week, they're collecting a number of different data points about a container spinning up about the operation of that container while it's alive about the container spinning down. So it's not even just four billion pieces of data. It's, you know, multiply that by 10 20 or many more. So, yeah, So the volume of operations dated that people are faced with is just, you know, out of this world, and some of that is beginning to get abstracted away, terms of what you need to look at. So, you know, Kubernetes is an orchestration engine so that's helping move things around. You still need to collect that data to inform automation tools, right? So even if you was, even if humans aren't really looking at it, it's being used to drive automation, right? It still has to be collected, >> right, And they're still configurations and settings and and dials. And it seems like a lot of the breaches that we hear about today are people just miss configuring something on us. It's human error. And so how do we kind of square the circle? Because the date is only growing. The quantity sources, the complexity, Yeah, the lack of structure. And that's before we had a I ot And now we got edge devices and they're all reporting in from from home. Yeah, crazy problem. It's >> really, I think, driving a lot of the investments in the focus and more sophisticated analytics, right? So that's why you're hearing a lot more about machine learning. And a I in this space is because humans can't just look at that huge volume >> of data and >> figure out what it means. So the development of machine learning tools, for instance, is gonna pull out a piece of data that's important. Here is the anomaly. This is the thing you should be paying attention to. Andi, obviously getting increasingly sophisticated, right? In terms of correlating data from different parts of your infrastructure in order to yet make sense of it, >> right? And then, Oh, by the way, they're all made up of micro service is a literal interconnected in AP eyes. The third party providers. Yeah. I mean, the complexity is ridicu >> and then, you know, and I've been actually thinking and talking a lot recently about organizational issues within companies that exacerbate some of these challenges. So you mentioned Micro Service is so ah, lot of times, you know, you've got Dev ops groups and an individual Dev Ops group is responsible for a or multiple. Micro service is right. They're all running, sort of autonomous. They're doing their own thing, right? So they could move quickly. But is there anybody overseeing the application that's made up of maybe 1000 Micro Service's? And in some cases, the answer is no. And so it may look like all the Micro Service's are operating well, but the user experience actually is not good, and no one really notices until the user starts complaining. So it's like things start. You know, you have to think about organizational things. Who's responsible for that, right? You know, if you're on a Dev ops team and your job has been to support the certain service's and not the whole, like who's responsible for the whole application and that's it's a challenge, it's something. Actually, in our surveys, we're hearing from people that they're looking for people that skill set, someone who understands how to look at Micro Service's as they work together to deliver a service, right? It's it's a It's a pain point. Shouldn't >> the project the product manager for that application would hopefully have some instances abilities to kind of what they're trying to optimize for? >> In some cases, they're not technical enough, right? A product manager doesn't necessarily have the depth to know that, or they're not used to using the types of tools that the Dev Ops team or the operations team would use to track the performance of an application. So sometimes it's just a matter of having the right tooling in front of them, >> and then even the performance I was like What do you optimizing four you optimized for security up the mind thing for speed are optimizing for yeah, you can optimize for everything if you got a stack rank order at some point in time. So that would also then drive in a different prioritization or the way that you look at those doctorsservices performance. Yeah, interesting. It's another big topic that comes up often is the vision of a single pane of glass in You know, I can't help but think is in my work day. You know how often I'm tabbing between, you know, sales force and email and slack and asana and, um, a couple of browsers air open. I mean, it's it's it's bananas, you know, it's no longer just that that email is the only thing that's open on my desk all day and only imagine the Dev Ops world. No, we saw just crazy complexity around again, managing all the micro service's of the AP eyes. So what's kind of the story? What are you seeing in kind of the development of that? And there's so many vendors now, and so many service is yeah, it's not just we're just gonna put in HB open view, and that's the standard, and that's what we're all right on. >> So if you're looking at it from the lens of of monitoring or observe ability or performance. Traditionally, you had different tools that looked at, say, different layers of a service, so you had a tool that was looking at infrastructure. Was your infrastructure monitoring tool. You had an application performance monitoring tool. You might have a network performance monitoring tool. You might have point tools that are looking just at the data base layer. But as things get more complicated, Azadliq ations are getting much more complex. Looking at that data in a silo tool tends to obscure the bigger picture. You don't understand when you're looking at the's separate tools how some piece of infrastructure might be impacting the application, for instance. And so the idea is to bring all of that operations data about the performance of an application in tow. One spot where you can run again, these more sophisticated analytics so that you can understand the relationship between the different layers of the application stack also horizontally, right? So how micro service's that are dependent on each other? How one micro service might be impacting the performance of another. So that's conceptually the idea behind having a single pane of glass. Now the execution can happen in a bunch of different ways, so you can have one vendor. There are vendors that are growing horizontally, so they're collecting data across the stack. And there's other vendors that are positioning themselves as that sort of central data repositories, so they may not directly collect all of that data. But they might in just some data that another monitoring vendor has collected. So there's an end. You know, there's there's always going to be good arguments for best of breed tools, right? So, you know, in most cases, businesses are not going to settle on just one monitoring tool that does it all. But that's conceptually the reason, right, and you want to bring all of this data together. However you get it, however, it's being collected so that you can analyze it and understand that big picture performance of a complicated application, >> right? But then, even then, as you said, you don't even want, you're not really monitoring the application performance per se. You're just waiting for the you're waiting for some of those needles to fall out of the haystack because you just you just can't get that much stuff. And you know, it's where do you focus your priority? You know what's most critical? What needs attention now. And if without a machine to help kind of point you in the right direction, you're gonna have a hard time finding that needle. >> And there's a lot of different approaches that are beginning to develop. So one is this idea of SL owes or service level objectives. And so, for instance, a really common service level objective that teams are looking at is Leighton. See, So this Leighton see of the service should never drop under whatever ah 100 milliseconds. And and if it does, I want to be alerted. And also if it drops below that objective for a certain amount of time, that can actually help you as a team. Allocate, resource is so if you're not living up to that service level objective, maybe you should shift some people's time toe working on improving the application instead of developing a new feature, right? So it can really help you prioritize your time because you know what? There was a time when people in operations teams or Dev. Ops teams had a really hard time, and they still d'oh figuring out which problems are important because you've always people always have a lot of performance problems going on. So which do you focus your time on? And it's been pretty opaque. It's hard to see. Is this performance impacting the bottom line of my business? Is this impacting? You know, my customers? Are we losing business over this? Like that's That's a really common question that people I can't answer, right? So there you people are beginning to develop these approaches to try to figure out how to prioritize work on performance problems. It's >> interesting because the other one that and some of you mentioned before is kind of this post incident review instead of a post boredom. And, you know, you talked about culture and words matter, and I think that's a really interesting take because it's it's it implies we're gonna learn, and we're gonna go forward. It's dead. Um, yeah, you know, we're gonna yell at each other and someone's gonna get blamed. That's exactly it. And we're going to move on. So, you know, how is that kind of evolved in. And how does that really help organizations do a better job? >> There's, I mean, there's there's much more of a focus on setting aside time to do that kind of analysis, right? So look at how we're performing as a team. Look at how we responded to an incident so that you can find ways that you can do better next time and some of that Israel tactical right? It's tweaking alerts. Did we not get an alert? You know, did we not even know this problem was happening? So maybe you build new alerts or sport get rid of a bunch of alerts that did nothing. You know, there's there's a lot you can learn on again to To your point, I think part of the reason people have started calling in a post Incident review instead of a postmortem is because yet you don't want that to be a session where people are feeling like Blaine. You know, this is my fault. I screwed up. I spent way too long on this, so I >> had to >> set things out properly. It's it's meant to be productive. Let's find the weak points and fill them right. Fill those gaps. >> It's funny you had another. There's another thing I found where you were talking about not not necessarily the Post Borden, but you know, people, people being much more proactive, much more, you know, thoughtful as to how they are going to take care of these things. And it is really more of a social cultural change unnecessarily. The technical piece that culture pieces. So so >> it is and especially, you know, right now there's a lot of focus on on tooling and that can cause some, you know, interesting issues. So, you know, especially in an organization that has really adopted Dev ops practices like the idea of a Dev Ops team is that it's very autonomous. They do what they do, what they need to do right to move fast and to get the job done. And that often includes choosing your own tools, but that that has created a number of problems, especially in monitoring. So if you have 100 Dev ops teams and they all have chosen their own, monitoring tools like this is not efficient, so it's not. It's not a good idea because those tools aren't talking to each other, even though they're micro service's that are dependent on each other. It's inefficient. From a business perspective. You've got all these relationships with vendors, and in some cases, with a single vendor, you might have 50 instances of the same monitoring tool that you know you have 50 accounts with them, like that's just totally inefficient. And then you've got people on a Dev ops, an individual, all the all the individual Dev ops teams have a person who's supposed to be the resident expert in these tools, like maybe you should share that knowledge across. But my point is, you get into the situation where you have hundreds of monitoring tools, sometimes 40 50 monitoring tools. You realize that's a problem. How do you address that problem? Because you're gonna have to go out and tell people you can't use this tool that you love. That helps you do your job that you chose. And so again, this whole cultural question comes out like, How do you manage that transition in a way that's gonna be productive? >> Thea other one that you brought up that was interesting is where the the sport team basically tells the business team you only have X number of incidents. We're gonna give you a budget. Yeah, exceed the budget. We're not going to help you. It's a really different way to think about prioritization. I >> don't necessarily think that's a great approach, but I mean, there was somebody who did that, but I think it's kind of it's kind of >> an interesting thing. And you talked about it in that. I think it was one of your presentations or speeches where, you know, it makes you kind of rethink. You know, why do we have so many incidents? Yeah, and there shouldn't be that many incidents, and maybe some of the responsibility should be shifted to think about why in the how and is more of a systemic problem than a feature problem or a bug, right? It's a broken code. So again, I think there's so many kind of cultural opportunities to rethink this. In a world of continuous development, continuous publishing and continuous pushing out of new code. Yeah, yeah, sure. All right. Nancy will. Thanks for taking a few minutes, and it's really great to talk to you. Thanks >> for having me. >> Alright. She's Nancy. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube where it's Uma Logic illuminate 2019. Thanks for watching. We'll see next time

>> Narrator: From Burlingame, California, it's theCUBE, covering Sumo Logic Illuminate 2019! Brought to you by Sumo Logic. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Sumo Logic Illuminate 2019 event. It's at the Hyatt Regency San Francisco Airport, about eight hundred, nine hundred people, our second year. It's the third year of the event. Excited to be here and watch it grow. We've seen a bunch of these things grow from little to big over a number of years and it's always fun to kind of be here for the zenith. We're excited to be joined by our next guest, she's an analyst. It's Nancy Gohring, Senior Analyst for 451 Research. Nancy, great to see you. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. So first off, just kind of impressions of the event here. >> Yeah, good stuff, you know? Definitely trying to, you know, get on top of some of the big trends, you know, the big news here was their new Kubernetes monitoring tool. So obviously kind of staying on the leading edge of the cloud-native technologies. >> It's amazing how fast it's growing, you know. Doing some research for this event, I found some of your stuff out on the internet, and just one quote, I think it's from years ago, but just for people to kind of understand the scale, I think you said Google was launching four billion containers a week, Twitter had twelve thousand services, Uber four thousand microservices, Yelp ingesting twenty-five million data points per minute, and I think this is a two or three year old presentation, I mean, the scale in which the data is moving is astronomical. >> Yeah, well if you think of Google launching four billion containers every week, they're collecting a number of different data points about a container spinning up, about the operation of that container while it's alive, about the container spinning down. So it's not even just four billion pieces of data, it's, you know, multiply that by ten or twenty or many more. So yeah, so the volume of operations data that people are faced with, is just, you know out of this world. And some of that is beginning to get abstracted away in terms of what you need to look at so you know Kubernetes is an orchestration engine so that's helping move thing around. You still need to collect that data to inform automation tools, right, so even humans aren't really looking at it, it's being used to drive automation. >> Right. >> It still has to be collected. >> Right. And there's still configurations and settings and dials and it seems like a lot of the breaches that we hear about today are just people misconfiguring something on AWS >> Yeah, it's human error. >> It's human error. And so how do we kind of square the circle cause the data's only growing the quantity, the sources, the complexity, the lack of structure and that's before we add IOT and now we have edge devices and they're all reporting in from home. >> Yeah >> Crazy problems. >> It's really, I think, driving a lot of the investments and the focus in more sophisticated analytics, right, so that's why you're hearing a lot more about machine learning and AI in this space. It's because humans can't just look at that huge volume of data and figure out what it means. So, the development of machine learning tools, for instance, is going to pull out a piece of data that's important. Like, here's the anomaly, this is the thing you should be paying attention to. And then obviously getting increasingly sophisticated, right, in terms of correlating data from different parts of your infrastructure in order to make sense of it. >> Right. And then, oh, by the way, they're all made up of microservices that are all interconnected and API is the third party providers >> Yeah. >> I mean the complexity is ridiculous. >> Yeah, and then, you know, and I've been actually thinking and talking a lot recently about organizational issues within companies that exacerbates some of these challenges. So you mentioned microservices. So, a lot of times, you know, you've got DevOps groups and an individual DevOps group is responsible for a, or multiple, microservices, right. They're all running sort of autonomous. They're doing their own thing, right, so that they can move quickly. But is there anybody overseeing the application that's made up of maybe a thousand microservices? And in some cases the answer is "no". And so it may look like all the microservices are operating well, but the user experience actually is not good. And no one really notices until the user starts complaining. So, it's like things start, you know you have to think about organizational things. Who's responsible for that, right? If you're on a DevOps team and your job as been to support these certain services and not the whole, like, who's responsible for the whole application? >> Right. >> And that's, it's a challenge. It's something, actually, in our surveys, we're hearing from people that they're looking for people, that skill set, someone who understands how to look at microservices as they work together to deliver a service, right, it's a pain point. >> Shouldn't the project, or the product manager for that application would hopefully have some visibilities to kind of what they're trying to optimize for. >> In some cases they're not technical enough, right, a product manager doesn't necessarily have the depth to know that. Or they're not used to using tools that the DevOps team or the operations team would use to track the performance of an application. >> Right. >> So sometimes it's just a matter of having the right tooling in front of them >> And then even the performance. It's like, what are you optimizing for? Are you optimizing for security? Are you optimizing for speed? Are you optimizing for... >> Experience... >> You can't optimize for everything. You've got to stack rank order at some point in time, so that would also then drive in a different prioritization or the way that you look at those microservices' performance. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Interesting. So another big topic that comes up often is the vision of a single pane of glass. And, you know, I can't help but think as in my work day how often I'm tabbing between you know, sales force, and email, and slack, and Asana, and a couple of browsers are open. I mean, it's bananas, you know. It's no longer just that email is the only thing that's open on my desk all day. >> Yeah. >> And then you can only imagine the DevOps world that we saw just crazy complexity around, again, managing all the microservices, the APIs, so what kinds of, sort of, what are you seeing in kind of the development of that? And there's so many vendors now, and so many services. >> Yeah. >> It's not just, we're just going to put in HP open view and that's the standard and that's what we're all on. >> So if you're looking at it from the lens of monitoring or observability or performance, traditionally you had different tools that looked at, say, different layers of a service. So you had a tool that was looking at infrastructure - it was your infrastructure monitoring tool. You had an application performance monitoring tool. You might have a network performance monitoring tool. You might have point tools that are looking just at the data base layer. But as things get more complicated, as applications are getting much more complex, looking at that data in a silo tool tends to obscure the bigger picture. You don't understand when you're looking at the separate tools how some piece of infrastructure might be impacting the application, for instance. And so, the idea is to bring all of that operations data about the performance of an application into one spot where you can run, again, these more sophisticated analytics so that you can understand the relationship between the different layers of the application stack, also horizontally, right, so, how microservices that are dependent on eachother how one microservice might be impacting the performance of another, so that's conceptually the idea behind having a single pane of glass. Now the execution can happen in a bunch of different ways. So you can have one vendor, there are vendors that are growing horizontally, so they're collecting data across the stack. There's other vendors that are positioning themselves as that sort of central data repository. So they may not directly collect all of that data, but they might ingest some data that another monitoring vendor has collected. So, there's, and, you know, there's always going to be good arguments for best of breed tools right, so, you know, in most cases, businesses are not going to settle on just one monitoring tool that does it all. But that's conceptually the reason, right, is you want to bring all of this data together however you get it, however it's being collected, so that you can analyze it and understand that "big picture" performance of a complicated application. >> Right. But then, even then, as you said, you don't even want to, you're not really monitoring the application performance per se, you're just waiting for the, you're waiting for some of those needles to fall out of the haystack, cause you just, you just can. There's so much stuff. And you know, it's where do you focus your priority. You know, what's most critical, what needs attention now. >> (Nancy) Yeah. >> And if, without a machine to help kind of, point you in the right direction, you're going to have a hard time finding that needle. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of different approaches that are beginning to develop. And one is this idea of SLO's, or Service Level Objectives. And so, for instance a really common Service Level Objective that teams are looking at is latency. So, the latency of the service should never drop under whatever- a hundred milliseconds, and if it does, I want to be alerted. And also, if it drops below that objective for a certain amount of time that can actually help you as a team allocate resources. So, if you're not living up to that Service Level Objective, maybe you should shift some people's time to working on improving the application instead of developing a new feature. Right? >> (Jeff) Right. >> So it can really help you prioritize your time because you know what? There was a time, people in operations teams, or DevOps teams, had a really hard time, and they still do, figuring out which problems are important. 'Cause you've always, people always have a lot of performance problems going on. So which do you focus your time on? And it's been pretty opaque. It's hard to see, is this performance impacting the bottom line in my business? Is this impacting, you know, my customers? Are we losing business over this? Like, that's, that's a really common question that people can't answer. >> Right. >> So, yeah, people are beginning to develop these approaches to try to figure out how to prioritize work on performance problems. >> It's interesting 'cause the other one that you've mentioned before, kind of this post incident review instead of a post mortem and you know, you talked about culture, and "words matter" >> (Nancy) Yeah. >> And I think that's a really interesting take because it's, it implies, we're going to learn, and we're going to go forward as opposed to "it's dead". >> (Linda) Yeah. >> And, you know, we're going to yell at eachother, and someone's going to get blamed... >> (Linda) That's exactly it... >> And we're going to move on. So, you know, how has that kind of evolved and how does that really help organizations do a better job? >> There's, I mean, there's much more of a focus on setting aside time to do that kind of analysis, right? So look at how we're performing as a team. Look at how we responded to an incident so that you can find ways that you can do better next time. And some of that is real tactical, right, it's tweaking alerts. Did we not get an alert? You know, did we not even know this problem was happening? So maybe you build new alerts or get rid of a bunch of alerts that did nothing. You know, there's a lot you can learn and again, to your point, I think part of the reason people have started calling it a post incident review instead of a post mortem is because, yeah, you don't want that to be as session where people are feeling like blame, you know, this is my fault, I screwed up, I spent way too long on this, or I hadn't set things up properly. It's meant to be productive. >> Right. >> Let's find the weak points and fill them. Right? Fill those gaps. >> It's funny you had another, there was another thing I found, you were talking about not, not necessarily the post mortem but, you know, people being much more pro-active, much more, you know, thoughtful as to how they are going to take care of these things. And it is really more of a social, cultural change than necessarily the technical piece. That culture piece is so, so important. >> It is, and especially, you know, right now there's a lot of focus on tooling and that can cause some, you know, interesting issues. So you know, especially in an organization that has really adopted DevOps practices like, the idea of a DevOps team is that it's very autonomous. They do what they need to do, right, to move fast and to get the job done and that often includes choosing your own tools. But that has created a number of problems especially in monitoring. So if you have a hundred DevOps teams and they all have chosen their own monitoring tools, like, this is not efficient. So it's not a good idea because those tools aren't talking to each other, even though they're microservices that are dependent on each other. It's inefficient from a business perspective. You've got all these relationships with vendors and in some cases with a single vendor. You might have fifty instances of the same monitoring tool that, you know, you have fifty accounts with them. Like that's just totally inefficient. And then you've got people on a DevOps and individual, all the individual DevOps teams have a person who's supposed to be the resident expert in these tools, like, maybe you should share that knowledge across... But my point is you get into this situation where you have hundreds of monitoring tools. Sometimes forty, fifty monitoring tools. You realize that's a problem. How do you address that problem? 'Cause you're going to have to go out and tell people you can't use this tool that you love, that helps you do your job, that you chose. So again this whole cultural question comes up. Like, how do you manage that transition in a way that's going to be productive? >> The other one that you brought up that was interesting was where the support team basically tells the business team you only have X-number of incidents, we're going to give you a budget. (laughs) >> Yeah. >> If you exceed the budget we're not going to help you. It's a really different way to think about prioritization... >> Yeah, I don't necessarily think that's a great approach. I mean there was somebody who did that but like... >> But I think its kind of, it's kind of an interesting thing. And you talked about it in that I think it was one of your presentations or speeches where, you know, it makes you kind of re-think, you know, why do we have so many incidents? >> Yeah. >> And there shouldn't be that many incidents. And maybe some of the responsibility should be shifted to think about why, and the how, and is it more of a systemic problem than a feature problem, or a bug, or... >> Right >> A piece of broken code, so again I think there's so many, kind of, cultural opportunities to re-think this, in this world of continuous development, continuous publishing, continuous pushing out of new code. >> Yeah, yeah. For sure. (laughs) >> Alright Nancy, well thanks for taking a few minutes and it was really great to talk to you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, she's Nancy, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, where it's Sumo Logic Illuminate 2019. Thanks for watching We'll see you next time (electonic music)

(upbeat jazzy music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios today for a CUBE conversation. You know, every place we go, a lot of the conversation is about the future of work. And oftentimes it's really in the context of the tools, whether Slack, or Asana, or Facebook Groups, everybody's trying to get into this. But there's a lot more to the future of work and is really about talent, to getting talent, a hyper-competitive talent space, it's about culture, and ethics, and morals, and especially some of the stuff that we've seen recently, with what happened at Wells Fargo, and obviously what's goin' on at Facebook. There's a much more complicated part of the story in terms of the people side, and we're excited to have somebody who's applying kind of AI, and all the technology that we talk about all the time with the shows to culture, and so for the first time, we'd like to welcome Mitch Gudgeon. He is the Co-Founder and CEO of TalentFit AI. Mitch, great to see you. >> Hey, nice to see you Jeff. Thanks for having me here today. >> Absolutely! So before we get into it, because a lot of fun stuff, just give people kind of the quick overview of what you guys are all about at TalentFit AI. >> Yeah, definitely. So we make it easy to find the right person for your context, so your culture of your organization. Basically we take an evidence-based approach to calibrating your culture, and then quantifying culture fit, so you're actually reduce bias for the hiring process, at least through the phases that we take you through, and then ultimately you end up saving time, energy, money hiring and retaining the right people. >> So it's both the culture at the company, and then then it's the culture for the applicant, and trying to make a match. >> Yeah, basically matching their ideal cultures, so what they want to get, their sort of fundamental values, their needs, the norms that they have, and then matching that to what the company actually has internally, not what's necessarily written on the wall for-- >> Right. (laughs) I was going to say. I would imagine the first big point of conversation, what so you do a culture assessment at a company, do you come at it from the company point of view? Or more from the employee applicant point of view? >> Yeah, so we actually start by calibrating the culture by understanding what the culture is across the organization based on employee feedback. From that, we're able to extract that. We use some validation stuff, based on performance, based on, you know, engagement scores, other things like that. And then from there, anybody's an applicant who's applying, we can actually help them actually, or help the company actually assess, do they actually fit this company culture or not-- >> Right. So I would imagine it's kind of like reputation, right? You think your reputation is not what you say it is, it's what people talk about when you're not in the room. And I would imagine when you're doing kind of a culture assessment, there's one just figuring it out, but I got to guess that there's a lot of times where the culture data that you collect based on real data, doesn't necessarily match what maybe the leadership team of the company thinks it is. >> Yeah, it's actually funny. That's kind of the inspiration for why I even started this company in the first place, is I actually finished my MBA and joined a company, and for me it was like, we went through the hiring process, did all the due diligence, and realized once I joined the team that, my ideal culture wasn't exactly what the culture was in the organization, not saying it was a bad culture, just saying it wasn't the right place for me. >> Right. >> And (mumbles) you know had the right personality traits and what not to do well in the role, at the same time I wasn't able to actually sort of feel that I got what I needed from the company, and then probably from me too, so, you know, it's one of those things. We help you basically not go into the wrong situation where you're not in a good place to succeed too. >> Right. And do you talk about a bunch of things that kind of determine culture, so there's the plaque on the wall, you know, as you walk in the front door, but it's really, and you outline it a bunch on your... it's the norms, it's the behavior, it's how people are rewarded. So there's a bunch of real discrete things that you guys can measure through your process that actually define culture in a way that you can put numbers on it, and you can compare Culture A to Culture B. >> Yeah. >> What do you see as some of the most important things, or where do people usually miss between what they think is the culture and where they execute the culture? >> Yeah, it kind of varies from company to company. So we use a thing called the cultural signature, this is saying that you and I can both sign a check, hopefully both our checks are going to actually pass and they won't bounce, but your signature is no better than mine, mine is no better than yours, it's just unique, right? To your own situation. And sometimes you'll see that leadership especially may not be in touch with what the culture of the organization actually is based on their employees' feedback. And so this is what we kind of do, it's kind of like understanding what the culture is, seeing those gaps between what leadership thinks and what it actually is, and then leadership, if they do care about culture, which most of our customers would, they can start making those appropriate changes to get to their aspirational state if they want to. >> Right. And then when we first started were getting ready to do this interview and I was thinking to myself, well wait, if you're just bringing in people that kind of fit the culture, are you just kind of going birds of a feather, are you missing the opportunity of what's so important right now in terms of diversity, diversity of opinion, diversity of background, diversity of point of view. But you're saying personality fit and culture fit are two very different things. So how do you look at the difference between personality and getting diversity in the company, which is good, versus getting cultural misfit, which is not good? >> Yeah exactly. So yeah they're definitely very different things, and there are some ties to it, but you think of people often associate with culture fit as hey I can sit down and have a beer with you or we talked to a couple of companies like hey, are you a gamer? Then you'll be able to work with us because you fit our culture. But that's not really what it is, right? At the end of the day it's about these fundamental values that you have within your organization. You know, what you actually want out of the organization, and that it's matching your needs. So and we actually have an advisor who's one of the top diversity inclusion people in Canada for a global organization, and she's also helping us through this process of ensuring auditing our algorithm, making sure that we're taking the right steps, and managing and ensuring that the we're tracking demographic data, so that we actually do not have bias in our algorithm at the end of the day. So, it's kind of where were going. >> Yeah, so I'm curious about where the bounds of the culture in terms of number of people, if you will. So, there's obviously, do we fit as an employer and employee? You get along with your boss, you have a culture. There's your group that you're intimately involved with, who you work with with day to day, whether that's, I don't know, six people, 10 people, I'm curious if there's a natural bound, and then maybe you're part of a department, and obviously if you work at a company like Amazon, just to pick a name out of the hat, they have over 600,000 people. So where the limits of culture, or can they successfully span from all the way at the top, all the way down to those little micro groups? >> Yeah, so usually we think of it as there's core culture to the organization, and that's kind of things that are aligned across the entire organization, right? So you think of person organization fit is how they define it in their research. You get into things like person group fit, so this could be the specific team you work on, and there's also cultures with the sub-cultures in the teams, so the way we've built our algorithm is actually taking and being inspired by pieces of research, that actually look at group fit, look at organization fit, and then be able to match people effectively sort of both of those. >> So you try to look at it all. But at the end of the day, is your probability of success within an organization more determined by that kind of close intimate group? Or the bigger group because then maybe you find a different path if that immediate group doesn't work for you. >> Yes. >> What do you find? Yes, so right now we're still pretty early stage, right? So we're going to be tracking stats and seeing how people actually fit to the overall organization, how they fit to the groups. Right now we're doing matching to specific groups and teams, because there are sub-cultures within the organization. Those teams will still have those core values of the organization too, but things like their leader may be a bit different, the way they manage their people, right? So that's kind of what we're looking at right now. >> And do you find that senior leadership really understands the importance of culture? Because you mention it in some of your posts on your website, and some of the articles that you reference that culture can be a great asset, right? Then view Patty McCord with the work she did at Netflix is, you know, kind of legendary, and everyone goes to that deck, it's 127 page slides. I don't like slides, I went through the whole deck, it's amazing. But it can also be a real negative. It can be a real problem, and does leadership understand that to the point where they're making the investments to make sure that culture is a asset and not a liability? >> Yeah, and I think it's changing a lot. I think it used to be leadership kind of set the direction, and you kind of had to listen to what was going on, and you had to abide by the rules of the culture, and if you didn't you're kind of gone. You know, I think that's shifting a lot, because people are more attracted to organizations that they know they fit the culture, they feel they align with the culture. They're more likely to accept job offers, they're likely to actually take a pay cut even, a lot of the research is showing. So I think those are factors that are coming into the equation now, and companies are realizing that if we want to attract the top talent, great. Everyone can pay X amount of money, right, for a candidate to join. Now at the same time, if you're being recruited by five different firms, and they're all offering the same pay, what's your differentiator, right? And so culture can be a differentiator and people, and especially leaders I think are realizing it can be a competitive advantage, right? It's going back to this whole talk of like culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? >> Right. >> And I think that's an important thing to think about is that I think companies are buying into that more than ever now. >> Right. But ultimately it's about execution, right? You got to execute it, you got to walk the walk, and talk the talk. And clearly, when it works well, it works really well, and one of the examples we use around here, just because it's so easy and in your face is the Warriors, right? Perennial losing organization, Lose lose lose lose lose. They get a change at the top, before you know it, they're the premiere kind of brand in the NBA right now, and that's really been top down, driven by Joe Lacob, all the way down to the players. But I wonder, is it more of a stick or more of a carrot? Is it because employers now have to do this, because the employment market is so tight? Is it because they're trying to get the younger kids who are coming out of the school who are much more mission driven than maybe I was when I got out of school? I just wanted to get a job and get going. Or are they really thinking more holistically, kind of lifetime value of that employment relationship with these people? >> I think it's a bit of both, to be honest. I think they obviously see the benefit from the hey we can attract the top people here, but they also see the business benefit of it now too, right? And I think that's the one thing that is often forgotten in the past. And I love the example of the Warriors, right? And I think this is one thing that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts is another... I like using these kind of phrases, right? >> Right. >> But the Warriors is a great example because they have five A players on their team, if you want to call them A players, and they're able to work together for the most part, although earlier in this season they had some issues with their culture, and if you probably look at the winning record there, it was actually pretty low probably during those when they're having issues internally. So I think it's one of those things. You can also help players even level up, so it's like you don't have to recruit that A player every time, you can actually make a B Player on the right team that they fit into turn into this kind of A player in that situation and that context. >> Yeah, last question, before I let you go, because I think it's another interesting thing that's happening is this blurring between professional life and your regular life, and we've seen it with hours, right? Nobody's working eight to five anymore, because you've got meetings with Europe, you've got meetings with Asia Pacific, you've got meetings with the East Coast from here, so people are on and off the meetings all the time, you're on and off your phone, you're getting Slack notifications all through the day. And at the same time, people want their employees to be engaged and feel part of that. They want them to retweet the company line, but they won't necessarily give them the rights to retweet in the name of the company. So how do you see the motivation of people and this blurring between professional and personal life, and yet companies want employees that are bought in, that are kind of emotionally vested, into these mission driven cultures? Do you see more conflict there? Is it working, or what should people be thinking about? >> Yeah I think it really comes down to what people want at the end of the day too, right? If you don't want to be in tapped in all the time, then you probably don't want to fit with that, or you're probably not going to fit with that kind of organizational culture. And there's lots of other companies out there that may be not like that, for instance. So I think it's one of those things. You really just have to understand like what do you value as an individual? What is a company's value? And then, how do those things align for you? And do you want to be on your phone 24/7, or do you want to... and have the flexibility you know to be able to take holidays when you want? Or do you want that nine to five job that's more structured? And so what we're doing is giving that transparency to both the job seeker and the company now, to say like hey is it a fit right up front? And if it is, okay let's start taking you through the hiring process, and then if you don't? That's okay with us, because we're both not going to benefit from this. It's a two-sided street, right? So it's building that transparency and helping people find a place that they'll ideally match with. >> Right, well Mitch it's really an interesting story, and we didn't really talk about deep into the AI, but you guys are using big science and big data to try to basically increase the probability of success, because a miss is expensive for both sides. >> Yes, it's really costly, right? It's, you know some of the estimates can be up to three times salary is what it's costs when you make a bad hire. Companies, I think it was like 85% of companies say they've made a bad hire in the last year. And from the job seekers' side it's like they're more likely to accept job offers, even at lower pay from companies that they feel they align with the values of the organization. It would be pretty nice now to be able to say like hey, you actually align and the data shows this too. This is all based in top tier research too. >> Right Mitch, well thanks for sharing your story. We'll keep an eye as you keep growing and best of luck to you and the team. >> Awesome, thanks Jeff. I really appreciate you having me today. >> Alright. He's Mitch, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at our Palo Alto studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat jazzy music)

>> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we are on the ground in downtown San Francisco at the Google Next 17 Conference. It's this crazy conference week, and arguably this is the center of all the action. Cloud is big, Google Cloud Platform is really coming out with a major enterprise shift and focus, which they've always had, but now they're really getting behind it. And I think this conference is over 14,000 people, has grown quite a bit from a few years back, and we're really excited to have one of the powerhouse partners with Google, who's driving to the enterprise, and that's Intel, and I'm really excited to be joined by Raejeanne Skillern, she's the VP and GM of the Cloud Platform Group, Raejeanne, great to see you. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Yeah absolutely. So when we got this scheduled, I was thinking, wow, last time I saw you was at the Open Compute Project 2015, and we were just down there yesterday. >> Yesterday. And we missed each other yesterday, but here we are today. >> So it's interesting, there's kind of the guts of the cloud, because cloud is somebody else's computer that they're running, but there is actually a computer back there. Here, it's really kind of the front end and the business delivery to people to have the elastic capability of the cloud, the dynamic flexibility of cloud, and you guys are a big part of this. So first off, give us a quick update, I'm sure you had some good announcements here at the show, what's going on with Intel and Google Cloud Platform? >> We did, and we love it all, from the silicon ingredients up to the services and solutions, this is where we invest, so it's great to be a part of yesterday and today. I was on stage earlier today with Urs Holzle talking about the Google and Intel Strategic Alliance, we actually announced this alliance last November, between Diane Green and Diane Bryant of Intel. And we had a history, a decade plus long of collaborating on CPU level optimization and technology optimization for Google's infrastructure. We've actually expanded that collaboration to cover hybrid cloud orchestration, security, IOT edge to cloud, and of course, artificial intelligence, machine learning, and deep learning. So we still do a lot of custom work with Google, making sure our technologies run their infrastructure the best, and we're working beyond the infrastructure to the software and solutions with them to make sure that those software and solutions run best on our architecture. >> Right cause it's a very interesting play, with Google and Facebook and a lot of the big cloud providers, they custom built their solutions based on their application needs and so I would presume that the microprocessor needs are very specific versus say, a typical PC microprocessor, which has a more kind of generic across the board type of demand. So what are some of the special demands that cloud demands from the microprocessor specifically? >> So what we've seen, right now, about half the volume we ship in the public cloud segment is customized in some way. And really the driving force is always performance per dollar TCO improvement. How to get the best performance and the lowest cost to pay for that performance. And what we've found is that by working with the top, not just the Super Seven, we call them, but the Top 100, closely, understanding their infrastructure at scale, is that they benefit from more powerful servers, with performance efficiency, more capability, more richly configured platforms. So a lot of what we've done, these cloud service providers have actually in some cases pushed us off of our roadmap in terms of what we can provide in terms of performance and scalability and agility in their infrastructure. So we do a lot of tweaks around that. And then of course, as I mentioned, it's not just the CPU ingredients, we have to optimize in the software level, so we do a lot of co-engineering work to make sure that every ounce of performance and efficiency is seen in their infrastructure. And that's how they, their data center is their cost to sales, they can't afford to have anything inefficient. So we really try to partner to make sure that it is completely tailor-optimized for that environment. >> Right, and the hyperscale, like you said, the infrastructure there is so different than kind of classic enterprise infrastructure, and then you have other things like energy consumption, which, again, at scale, itty bitty little improvements >> It's expensive. >> Make a huge impact. And then application far beyond the cloud service providers, so many of the applications that we interact with now today on a day to day basis are cloud-based applications, whether it is the G Suite for documents or this or that, or whether it's Salesforce, or whether we just put in Asana for task tracking, and Slack, and so many of these things are now cloud-based applications, which is really the way we work more and more and more on our desktops. >> Absolutely. And one of the things we look at is, applications really have kind of a gravity. Some applications are going to have a high affinity to public cloud. You see Tustin Dove, you see email and office collaboration already moving into the public cloud. There are some legacy applications, complex, some of the heavier modeling and simulation type apps, or big huge super computers that might stay on premise, and then you have this middle ground of applications, that, for various reasons, performance, security, data governance, data gravity, business need or IP, could go between the public cloud or stay on premise. And that's why we think it's so important that the world recognizes that this really is about a hybrid cloud. And it's really nice to partner with Google because they see that hybrid cloud as the end state, or they call it the Multi Cloud. And their Kubernetes Orchestration Platform is really designed to help that, to seamlessly move those apps from on a customer's premise into the Google environment and have that flow. So it's a very dynamic environment, we expect to see a lot of workloads kind of continue to be invested and move into the public cloud, and people really optimizing end-to-end. >> So you've been in the data center space, we talked a little bit before we went live, you've been in the data center space for a long, long time. >> Long time. >> We won't tell you how long. (laughing) >> Both: Long time. >> So it must be really exciting for you to see this shift in computing. There's still a lot of computing power at the edge, and there's still a lot of computing power now in our mobile devices and our PCs, but so much more of the heavy lift in the application infrastructure itself is now contained in the data center, so much more than just your typical old-school corporate data centers that we used to see. Really fun evolution of the industry, for you. >> Absolutely, and the public cloud is now one of the fastest growing segments in the enterprise space, in the data center space, I should say. We still have a very strong enterprise business. But what I love is it's not just about the fact that the public cloud is growing, this hybrid really connects our two segments, so I'm really learning a lot. It's also, I've been at Intel 23 years, most of it in the data center, and last year, we reorganized our company, we completely restructured Intel to be a cloud and IoT company. And from a company that for multiple decades was a PC or consumer-based client device company, it is just amazing to have data center be so front and center and so core to the type of infrastructure and capability expansion that we're going to see across the industry. We were talking about, there isn't going to be an industry left untouched by technology. Whether it's agriculture, or industrial, or healthcare, or retail, or logistics. Technology is going to transform them, and it all comes back to a data center and a cloud-based infrastructure that can handle the data and the scale and the processing. >> So one of the new themes that's really coming on board, next week will it be a Big Data SV, which has grown out of Hadoop and the old big data conversation. But it's really now morphing into the next stage of that, which is machine learning, deep learning, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality, so this whole 'nother round that's going to eat up a whole bunch of CPU capacity. But those are really good cloud-based applications that are now delivering a completely new level of value and application sophistication that's driven by power back at the data center. >> Right. We see, artificial intelligence has been a topic since the 50s. But the reality is, the technology is there today to both capture and create the data, and compute on the data. And that's really unlocking this capabilities. And from us as a company, we see it as really something that is going to not just transform us as a business but transform the many use cases and industries we talked about. Today, you or I generate about a gig and a half of data, through our devices and our PC and tablet. A smart factory or smart plane or smart car, autonomous car, is going to generate terabytes of data. Right, and that is going to need to be stored. Today it's estimated only about 5% of the data captured is used for business insight. The rest just sits. We need to capture the data, store the data efficiently, use the data for insights, and then drive that back into the continuous learning. And that's why these technologies are so amazing, what they're going to be able to do, because we have the technology and the opportunity in the business space, whether it's AI for play or for good or for business, AI is going to transform the industry. >> It's interesting, Moore's Law comes up all the time. People, is Moore's Law done, is Moore's Law done? And you know, Moore's Law is so much more than the physics of what he was describing when he first said that in the first place, about number of transistors on a chip. It's really about an attitude, about this unbelievable drive to continue to innovate and iterate and get these order of magnitude of increase. We talked to David Floyer at OCP yesterday, and he's talking about it's not only the microprocessors and the compute power, but it's the IO, it's the networking, it's storage, it's flash storage, it's the interconnect, it's the cabling, it's all these things. And he was really excited that we're getting to this massive tipping point, of course in five years we'll look back and think it's archaic, of these things really coming together to deliver low latency almost magical capabilities because of this combination of factors across all those different, kind of the three horseman of computing, if you will, to deliver these really magical, new applications, like autonomous vehicles. >> Absolutely. And we, you'll hear Intel talk about Jevons Paradox, which is really about, if you take something and make it cheaper and easier to consume, people will consume more of it. We saw that with virtualization. People predicted oh everything's going to slow down cause you're going to get higher utilization rates. Actually it just unlocked new capabilities and the market grew because of it. We see the same thing with data. Our CEO will talk about, data is the new oil. It is going to transform, it's going to unlock business opportunity, revenue growth, cost savings in environment, and that will cause people to create more services, build new businesses, reach more people in the industry, transform traditional brick and mortar businesses to the digital economy. So we think we're just on the cusp of this transformation, and the next five to 10 years is going to be amazing. >> So before we let you go, again, you've been doing this for 20 plus years, I wasn't going to say anything, she said it, I didn't say it, and I worked at Intel the same time, so that's good. As you look forward, what are some of your priorities for 2017, what are some of the things that you're working on, that if we get together, hopefully not in a couple years at OCP, but next year, that you'll be able to report back that this is what we worked on and these are some of the new accomplishments that are important to me? >> So I'm really, there's a number of things we're doing. You heard me mention artificial intelligence many, many times. In 2016, Intel made a number of significant acquisitions and investments to really ensure we have the right technology road map for artificial intelligence. Machine learning, deep learning, training and inference. And we've really shored up that product portfolio, and you're going to see these products come to market and you're going to see user adoption, not just in my segment, but transforming multiple segments. So I'm really excited about those capabilities. And a lot of what we'll do, too, will be very vertical-based. So you're going to see the power of the technology, solving the health care problem, solving the retail problem, solving manufacturing, logistics, industrial problems. So I like that, I like to see tangible results from our technology. The other thing is the cloud is just growing. Everybody predicted, can it continue to grow? It does. Companies like Google and our other partners, they keep growing and we grow with them, and I love to help figure out where they're going to be two or three years from now, and get our products ready for that challenge. >> Alright, well I look forward to our next visit. Raejeanne, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your time and speaking to us. >> It was nice to see you again. >> You too. Alright, she's Raejeanne Skillern and I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE, we're at the Google Cloud Next Show 2017, thanks for watching. (electronic sounds)

[Music] [Music] okay we're back after that nice break here from knowledge we're here in Las Vegas at the Aria hotel this is service now's big customer conference about 4,000 folks here mostly customers most of the content at this event comes from customers its practitioners talking to practitioners which is quite rare actually at these conferences I'm Dave Volante everybody thanks for watching with wiki Bond org I'm here with my co-host Jeff Frick this is Silicon angles the cube we go to these events we extract the signal from the noise we love to bring you tech athletes and Fred ludie is here he is a tech athlete he's the founder of ServiceNow he started this platform around 2003 Fred welcome to the cube thank you very much so we really want to hear the story you know but we've been asked to sort of hold that off because we got another segment with you tomorrow but I just I have to ask you I mean seeing how this conference and ServiceNow as an organization has grown you just must be so thrilled in particular with the customer enthusiasm <Fred>  you know fundamentally I've got a personality flaw and I call it a kindergarten mentality I want to see my art on their refrigerator and the only way you can do that is by making somebody happy and so to see these people here with the excitement the enthusiasm and the smiles on their faces really is satisfying that kindergarten mentality cakes oh good stuff we were talking about that earlier Jeff had not seen the cakes before and was was quite amazed today no I think that's an industry-first actually good well be yeah announcements today you know that's if so you guys had some you're gonna transform an organization you got to have mobile I mean the whole world to go on mobile five billion devices and and growing what you guys announced today <Fred> well we announced the ability to run all of our applications on the iPad and you know I think people's reasonable expectations these days are that they should be able to manage anything anywhere anytime using the device that they currently have now I I like to think of an iPad as something that you use when you're pretending to be attending a meeting or when you're pretending to be watching TV with your family and when you are pretending to do that it'd be nice if very efficiently and very effectively you could manage whatever you needed to manage to get your job done and so today what we've announced is the ability to run everything that ServiceNow has on that iPad  <Dave> yeah I mean it seems to mobile is basically a fundamental delivery model and maybe even the main delivery model going forward wouldn't it be I <Fred> I think it will be a main delivery model and it's a it's a user interface that that requires complete rethinking about how you're going to do things you know for the longest time we we looked at screens with 24 by 80s you know these character screens and then we got big pixel monitors and then we got bigger pixeled monitors and we got very accurate Mouse's and everything got small and got hovers you've got you know this massive amount of data and now the form factor is completely shrunk and you're looking at this as my major input device so how am I going to get you know everything I used to do with a mouse where I'm hovering over things to see what they do or I'm touching you know 16 by 16 pixels which you by the way you can't hit with your fingernail how am I going to get all of that stuff how am I gonna be able to work with all that stuff using only my thumb or thumbs so how are you specifically taking advantage of that smaller form factor and you know the feature sets that you see in things like iPad <Fred> well I think it's a matter of rethinking so we're trying to get the user to be to be able to accomplish their task by doing considerably less work and one of the things that our system is actually very comprehensive it's very big and we create in the browser and our first user interface it was really created in 2005 we treat all the elements of the system equally so now what we've done in the in the mobile which I think is very unique it does MySpace I mean Facebook doesn't have this Lincoln doesn't have this we know exactly what you do as a user and we remember those things that you do edit of Li and so we're able to create shortcuts or we're able to remember the system is able to remember what you do and then very quickly present you back with those tasks which are repetitive so we're trying to simultaneously compress the information and reduce the interactions yeah so that doesn't sound trivial it sounds like there's some secret sauce behind that talk about that a little bit <Fred> well it's not trivial and it's a there there is secret sauce but it does it just requires you to rethink and for me you know if you if you read the jobs biography there were a couple of interesting things in their number one when he met dr. land they had both agreed that everything that had been invented was going to be invented had already been invented right the other thing that they that they pretty much agreed on are what job said and a quote that I've used for years is that great artists copy good artists copy and great artists steal and I've been a thief all my life I just I'm gonna admit it right here it's not on camera live and so what we do is we go ahead and take a look at who's doing this great Amazon is doing it great Zappos is doing it great asan is doing it great you know we and we capture those ideas and then what they meant by great artists steal is that you take them and you reformulate them for the task that you're trying to solve for the problem that you're trying to solve and the rich the artist won't they probably the original artist probably won't even recognize that as their work but yet they're they're deeply inspirational to us an artist so do you fancy yourself as a bit of  <Fred> well I think it's interesting  down down the road and you know to I was watching the Bellagio fountains create something like that if you think about the physics and the art that had to go into that to create that beautiful masterpiece you know it's not just a painting right think about the physics that goes on to shoot something seven its water seven hundred feet in the air and then cut it off instantly and have that all choreographed I mean it's phenomenal amount of engineering but it took also a phenomenal amount of art just to make that interesting so that we were we actually stood there in rapt amazement of you know look how all this is choreographed so yes I do in fact I don't think I take exception to the term engineering software engineering I don't think we haven't progressed to the point where this is an engineering this is this is an art this is a craft you know it's something that people practice and we try to get better at it and better at it and better at it but I don't think it's anywhere near an engineering discipline <Jeff> yeah the other interesting from the jobs book that I never really got until I read the book was like the iPod shuffle because when I first saw the iPod shuffle and you can't do anything you can't manage your playlists on it you all you can do is change songs I don't get it and then in reading the book as you just said you know what is what is it you're trying to accomplish with that form factor right and don't just automatically try to replicate what you can do a one form factor to another form factor but really rethink what's that application and it sounds like you're kind of taking advantage of that opportunity as you take the app to the mobile space into the iPad specifically to rethink what is the best use case for that platform you'll see tomorrow the iPad was really  <Fred> that's right and as as the inspirational first step that we're taking toward a totally mobile app and just like the Apple evolution of building all of this note wonderful new capabilities into iOS and then bringing them back into OS X we're going to be doing the same thing so you'll see tomorrow on stage not only in an iPad app but you will see a native iOS app running and you'll see that it does even more things than the iPad app does and much faster it's a wonderful user experience and those those notions will be also coming back into the browser etc the same way that apples been bringing a lot of the capabilities of iOS back onto OS X <Dave> I was talking to an IT practitioner last month at a large grocer and I asked him what's your what's your biggest challenge what excites you the most and he said the same thing he said both of X what's my biggest challenge is embracing all this pressure from my users for mobile and that's what excites me the most because I have a mobile addict I got in it pulls out all those devices so how do you see this announcement within your user base changing you know the lives of IT  prose.    <Fred> well it'll you know technology since the dawn of time has been used really for two things it's been it's been used to streamline make make tasks more efficient and more streamlined and it's been used to create business differentiators and so our our product really is about process and moving process through an organization and so we want to streamline that as much as possible so if I can we do things like change management change management has multiple levels of approval if I can get it to the point where a manager can pull his phone out of his pocket and do five approvals between meetings he's become significantly more efficient right the changes are going to be done in a more timely fashion and the bottom line improves it's as simple as that <Dave> yeah it's interesting we were those of you watching no we were earlier the today broadcasting from sa P sapphire event and if you go to sapphire are you here to to get huge doses of two things one is Hana of course which is there in memory database but the other is mobile he's all you hear and it's interesting to hear you guys talk about the ERP of IT and your si PE they know the poster child for ERP and all their customers are going to mobile whether it's retail manufacturing you know across the supply chain and so it sounds like you've got sort of similar mentality but more focused obviously with it within IT but of course now you're also reaching beyond IT do you see you're a mobile app a push going beyond the IT community <Fred> yeah absolutely you know our underlying all of our applications we have a platform that say it's a forms based workflow platform that's really purpose-built for something that we would characterize as a service service relationship management so pretty much any request response fulfillment type workflow can be handled by our platform and what our customers have done over the years is create different applications that help them streamline that workflow typically that workflow is handled by by people creating a spreadsheet emailing it to somebody else having a TA back perhaps they built a Lotus Notes app but yes everything that that that or I will say that our platform usage has been expanded by our customers sometimes beyond our wildest dreams and and we love it so you talked about you know some of the greatest artists we stole rights of and so now you guys put up this platform I've said a number of times today it's not trivial to it to actually get a CMDB working in the way that you wanted to get it to work so now you've had this platform out for quite some time your successes started to you know you get a lot of press people are starting to see it do you worry sometimes that people gonna say okay I can do that too I'm gonna I'm gonna you know rip it off what gives you confidence that you can stay ahead of those those thieves out there <Fred> well I have great confidence in that you know we have a very broad base of applications that are very deep in functionality but if that's really something that you want to happen yeah because you want some young people with fresh new ideas to try to unseat you because they will come at the come at this from a completely different perspective and a completely different angle and they will do things that you never thought of and so the race is then on are they going to become more relevant than me or am I going to be inspired by their ideas incorporate them into our platform and stay ahead of them see welcome that all right absolutely welcome back yeah we we wouldn't be where we are today if Edison and Bell weren't weren't the jobs and gates of their time I mean they had just and I think jobs and gates as well right they had this great rivalry that really caused technology to move ahead a lot faster than when it was just I be am selling mainframes and so you need those rivalries you need that you need that competition you know I'm I'm watching these young guys from asana it's a great little platform for for tasking and you know they came out of Facebook they have a very Facebook mentality and they have phenomenal ideas and believe me guys from asana I'm watching you those are just that's where great ideas come from >> <Dave> Wow we always like to say we love sports analogies here in the cube and Jeff your kids are into sports well as our mind you always want to see and play that more competitive you know environment it sounds like Fred you have the same philosophy yes very much so yeah excellent all right Fred well listen we really appreciate you coming by now you come back Fred's gonna be back again tomorrow we're gonna go through the story of service now that's why we really didn't touch up on it and in any kind of detail today but to it but but but Fred actually started the company we give him a little preview Fred so you started the company really not to go solve an IT service management problem right you came up with this sort of idea this platform and and then you you that was really the first application that you developed right up a step in for that oh great you see give us a little tidbit we're gonna back >> every day I wake up that's all I really >><Fred> I've been a programmer now for 40 years want to do why do I program because I want somebody to take a look at the technology that I build and say hey that's pretty helpful I like that I can use they're gonna put that in my fridge fridge so the real strategy behind the company was to build some software that somebody wanted that hopefully they would pay me so I could build more software that was the entire strategy and so you know on one hand I love technology and on the other hand it really irritates me when it makes me feel stupid or it makes other people feel stupid so what I wanted to do was to create an enterprise platform that people could use and they would feel empowered they could walk up and use it like they'd walk up and use an ATM like they'd walk up and buy something from Amazon etc so a completely you know consumer eyes thought process and then that was the thought process really in O 3 and no 4 and then what we do really figured out was that a platform is a very hard sale you know it's tough to convince somebody that they should take this it'd be like selling you an Intel processor and telling you can do anything you want right I want to solve a business problem and so we decided to go after the ITSM space first it was a space that was very underserved very lucrative and and growing significantly <Dave> amazing so so join us tomorrow we're gonna Fred back on and we're going to here this story the founding story of ServiceNow and how we got to where we are today so Fred thanks very much for coming on and sharing the news and I'm gonna change it all by tomorrow good all right so so keep it right there I will be up next we've got Douglas Leone coming on which is a partner at Sequoia Capital and and and one of the better-known DC's out in the valley so so keep it right there will be back with Doug just in a minute this is ServiceNow this is the cube this is 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