>>Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to the VMware Explorer. 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, here with Dave. Valante good to be sitting next to you, sir. >>Yeah. Yeah. The big set >>And we're very excited to be welcoming buck. One of our esteemed alumni Sanja poin joins us, the CEO and president of cohesive. Nice to see >>You. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Dave. It's great to meet with you all the time and the new sort of setting here, but first >>Time, first time we've been in west, is that right? We've been in north. We've been in south. We've been in Las Vegas, right. But west, >>I mean, it's also good to be back with live shows with absolutely, you know, after sort of the two or three or hiatus. And it was a hard time for the whole world, but I'm kind of driving a little bit of adrenaline just being here with people. So >>You've also got some adrenaline, sorry, Dave. Yeah, you're good because you are new in the role at cohesive. You wrote a great blog that you are identified. The four reasons I came to cohesive. Tell the audience, just give 'em a little bit of a teaser about that. >>Yeah, I think you should all read it. You can Google and, and Google find that article. I talked about the people Mohi is a fantastic founder. You know, he was the, you know, the architect of the Google file system. And you know, one of the senior Google executives was on my board. Bill Corrin said one of the smartest engineers. He was the true father of hyperconverge infrastructure. A lot of the code of Nutanix. He wrote, I consider him really the father of that technology, which brought computer storage. And when he took that same idea of bringing compute to secondary storage, which is really what made the scale out architect unique. And we were at your super cloud event talking about that, Dave. Yeah. Right. So it's a people I really got to respect his smarts, his integrity and the genius, what he is done. I think the customer base, I called a couple of customers. One of them, a fortune 100 customer. I, I can't tell you who it was, but a very important customer. I've known him. He said, I haven't seen tech like this since VMware, 20 years ago, Amazon 10 years ago and now Ko. So that's special league. We're winning very much in the enterprise and that type of segment, the partners, you know, we have HPE, Cisco as investors. Amazon's an investors. So, you know, and then finally the opportunity, I think this whole area of data management and data security now with threats, like ransomware big opportunity. >>Okay. So when you were number two at VMware, you would come on and say, we'd love all our partners and of course, okay. So you know, a little bit about how to work with, with VMware. So, so when you now think about the partnership between cohesive and VMware, what are the things that you're gonna stress to your constituents on the VMware side to convince them that Hey, partnering with cohesive is gonna gonna drive more value for customers, you know, put your thumb on the scale a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta unfair advantage somewhat, but you should use it. So what's the narrative gonna be like? >>Yeah, I think listen with VMware and Amazon, that probably their top two partners, Dave, you know, like one of the first calls I made was to Raghu and he knew about this decision before. That's the level of trust I have in him. I even called Michael Dell, you know, before I made the decision, there's a little bit of overlap with Dell, but it's really small compared to the overlap, the potential with Dell hardware that we could compliment. And then I called four CEOs. I was, as I was making this decision, Andy Jassey at Amazon, he was formerly AWS CEO sat Nadela at Microsoft Thomas cor at Google and Arvin Christian, IBM to say, I'm thinking about this making decision. They are many of the mentors and friends to me. So I believe in an ecosystem. And you know, even Chuck Robbins, who the CEO of Cisco is an investor, I texted him and said, Hey, finally, we can be friends. >>It was harder to us to be friends with Cisco, given the overlap of NSX. So I have a big tent towards everybody in our ecosystem with VMware. I think the simple answer is there's no overlap okay. With, with the kind of the primary storage capabilities with VSAN. And by the same thing with Nutanix, we will be friends and, and extend that to be the best data protection solution. But given also what we could do with security, I think this is gonna go a lot further. And then it's all about meet the field. We have common partners. I think, you know, sort of the narrative I talked about in that blog is just like snowflake was replacing Terada and ServiceNow replace remedy and CrowdStrike, replacing Symantec, we're replacing legacy vendors. We are viewed as the modern solution cloud optimized for private and public cloud. We can help you and make VMware and vs a and VCF very relevant to that part of the data management and data security continuum, which I think could end VMware. And by the way, the same thing into the public cloud. So most of the places where we're being successful is clearly withs, but increasingly there's this discussion also about playing into the cloud. So I think both with VMware and Amazon, and of course the other partners in the hyperscaler service, storage, networking place and security, we have some big plans. >>How, how much do you see this? How do you see this multi-cloud narrative that we're hearing here from, from VMware evolving? How much of an opportunity is it? How are customers, you know, we heard about cloud chaos yesterday at the keynote, are customers, do they, do they admit that there's cloud chaos? Some probably do some probably don't how much of an opportunity is that for cohesive, >>It's tremendous opportunity. And I think that's why you need a Switzerland type player in this space to be successful. And you know, and you can't explicitly rule out the fact that the big guys get into this space, but I think it's, if you're gonna back up office 365 or what they call now, Microsoft 365 into AWS or Google workspace into Azure or Salesforce into one of those clouds, you need a Switzerland player. It's gonna be hard. And in many cases, if you're gonna back up data or you protect that data into AWS banks need a second copy of that either on premise or Azure. So it's very hard, even if they have their own native data protection for them to be dual cloud. So I think a multi-cloud story and the fact that there's at least three big vendors of cloud in, in the us, you know, one in China, if include Alibaba creates a Switzerland opportunity for us, that could be fairly big. >>And I think, you know, what we have to do is make sure while we'll be optimized, our preferred cloud is AWS. Our control plane runs there. We can't take an all in AWS stack with the control plane and the data planes at AWS to Walmart. So what I've explained to both Microsoft and AWS is that data plane will need to be multi-cloud. So I can go to an, a Walmart and say, I can back up your data into Azure if you choose to, but the control plane's still gonna be an AWS, same thing with Google. Maybe they have another account. That's very Google centric. So that's how we're gonna believe the, the control plane will be in AWS. We'll optimize it there, but the data plane will be multicloud. >>Yeah. And that's what Mo had explained at Supercloud. You know, and I talked to him, he really helped me hone in on the deployment models. Yes. Where, where, where the cohesive deployment model is instantiating that technology stack into each cloud region and each cloud, which gives you latency advantages and other advantages >>And single code based same platform. >>And then bringing it, tying it together with a unified, you know, interface. That was he, he was, he was key. In fact, I, I wrote about it recently and, and gave him and the other 29 >>Quite a bit in that session, he went deep with you. I >>Mean, with Mohi, when you get a guy who developed a Google file system, you know, who can technically say, okay, this is technically correct or no, Dave, your way off be. So I that's why I had to >>Go. I, I thought you did a great job in that interview because you probed him pretty deep. And I'm glad we could do that together with him next time. Well, maybe do that together here too, but it was really helpful. He's the, he's the, he's the key reason I'm here. >>So you say data management is ripe for disrupt disruption. Talk about that. You talked about this Switzerland effect. That sounds to me like a massive differentiator for cohesive. Why is data management right for disruption and why is cohesive the right partner to do it? >>Yeah, I think, listen, everyone in this sort of data protection backup from years ago have been saying the S Switzerland argument 18 years ago, I was a at Veras an executive there. We used the Switzerland argument, but what's changed is the cloud. And what's changed as a threat vector in security. That's, what's changed. And in that the proposition of a, a Switzerland player has just become more magnified because you didn't have a sales force or Workday service now then, but now you do, you didn't have multi-cloud. You had hardware vendors, you know, Dell, HPE sun at the time. IBM, it's now Lenovo. So that heterogeneity of, of on-premise service, storage, networking, HyperCloud, and, and the apps world has gotten more and more diverse. And I think you really need scale out architectures. Every one of the legacy players were not built with scale out architectures. >>If you take that fundamental notion of bringing compute to storage, you could almost paralyze. Imagine you could paralyze backup recovery and bring so much scale and speed that, and that's what Mo invented. So he took that idea of how he had invented and built Nutanix and applied that to secondary storage. So now everything gets faster and cheaper at scale. And that's a disruptive technology ally. What snowflake did to ator? I mean, the advantage of snowflake is when you took that same concept data, warehousing is not a new concept it's existed from since Ralph Kimball and bill Inman and the people who are fathers of data warehousing, they took that to Webscale. And in that came a disruptive force toter data, right on snowflake. And then of course now data bricks and big query, similar things. So we're doing the same thing. We just have to showcase the customers, which we do. And when large customers see that they're replacing the legacy solutions, I have a lot of respect for legacy solutions, but at some point in time of a solution was invented in 1995 or 2000, 2005. It's right. For change. >>So you use snowflake as an example, Frank SL doesn't like when I say playbook, cuz I says, Dave, I'm a situational CEO, no playbook, but there are patterns here. And one of the things he did is to your point go after, you know, Terra data with a better data warehouse, simplify scale, et cetera. And now he's, he's a constructing a Tam expansion strategy, same way he did at ServiceNow. And I see you guys following a similar pattern. Okay. You get your foot in the door. Let's face it. I mean, a lot of this started with, you know, just straight back. Okay, great. Now it's extending into data management now extending to multi-cloud that's like concentric circles in a Tam expansion strategy. How, how do you, as, as a CEO, that's part of your job is Tam expansion. >>So yeah, I think the way to think about the Tam is, I mean, people say it's 20, 30 billion, but let me tell you how you can piece it apart in size, Dave and Lisa number one, I estimate there's probably about 10 to 20 exabytes of data managed by these legacy players of on-prem stores that they back up to. Okay. So you add them all up in the market shares that they respectively are. And by the way, at the peak, the biggest of these companies got to 2 billion and then shrunk. That was Verto when I was there in 2004, 2 billion, every one of them is small and they stopped growing. You look at the IDC charts. Many of them are shrinking. We are the fastest growing in the last two years, but I estimate there's about 20 exabytes of data that collectively among the legacy players, that's either gonna stay on prem or move to the cloud. Okay. So the opportunity as they replace one of those legacy tools with us is first off to manage that 20 X by cheaper, faster with the Webscale glass offer the cloud guys, we could tip that into the cloud. Okay. >>But you can't stop there. >>Okay. No, we are not doing just backup recovery. We have a platform that can do files. We can do test dev analytics and now security. Okay. That data is potentially at a risk, not so much in the past, but for ransomware, right? How do we classify that? How do we govern that data? How do we run potential? You know, the same way you did antivirus some kind of XDR algorithms on the data to potentially not just catch the recovery process, which is after fact, but maybe the predictive act of before to know, Hey, there's somebody loitering around this data. So if I'm basically managing in the exabytes of data and I can proactively tell you what, this is, one CIO described this very simply to me a few weeks ago that I, and she said, I have 3000 applications, okay. I wanna be prepared for a black Swan event, except it's not a nine 11 planes getting the, the buildings. >>It is an extortion event. And I want to know when that happens, which of my 3000 apps I recover within one hour within one day within one week, no later than one month. Okay. And I don't wanna pay the bad guys at penny. That's what we do. So that's security discussions. We didn't have that discussion in 2004 when I was at another company, because we were talking about flood floods and earthquakes as a disaster recovery. Now you have a lot more security opportunity to be able to describe that. And that's a boardroom discussion. She needs to have that >>Digital risk. O O okay, go ahead please. I >>Was just gonna say, ransomware attack happens every what? One, every 11, 9, 11 seconds. >>And the dollar amount are going up, you know, dollar are going up. Yep. >>And, and when you pay the ransom, you don't always get your data back. So you that's not. >>And listen, there's always an ethical component. Should you do it or not do it? If you, if you don't do it and you're threatened, they may have left an Easter egg there. Listen, I, I feel very fortunate that I've been doing a lot in security, right? I mean, I built the business at, at, at VMware. We got it to over a billion I'm on the board of sneak. I've been doing security and then at SAP ran. So I know a lot about security. So what we do in security and the ecosystem that supports us in security, we will have a very carefully crafted stay tuned. Next three weeks months, you'll see us really rolling out a very kind of disciplined aspect, but we're not gonna pivot this company and become a cyber security company. Some others in our space have done that. I think that's not who we are. We are a data management and a data security company. We're not just a pure security company. We're doing both. And we do it well, intelligently, thoughtfully security is gonna be built into our platform, not voted on. Okay. And there'll be certain security things that we do organically. There's gonna be a lot that we do through partnerships, this >>Security market that's coming to you. You don't have to go claim that you're now a security vendor, right? The market very naturally saying, wow, a comprehensive security strategy has to incorporate a data protection strategy and a recovery, you know, and the things that we've talking about Mount ransomware, I want to ask you, you I've been around a long time, longer than you actually Sanjay. So, but you you've, you've seen a lot. You look, >>Thank you. That's all good. Oh, >>Shucks. So the market, I've never seen a market like this, right? I okay. After the.com crash, we said, and I know you can't talk about IPO. That's not what I'm talking about, but everything was bad after that. Right. 2008, 2000, everything was bad. I've never seen a market. That's half full, half empty, you know, snowflake beats and raises the stock, goes through the roof. Dev if it, if the area announced today, Mongo, DB, beat and Ray, that things getting crushed and, and after market never seen anything like this. It's so fed, driven and, and hard to protect. And, and of course, I know it's a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint, but have you ever seen anything like this? >>Listen, I walk worked through 18 quarters as COO of VMware. You've seen where I've seen public quarters there and you know, was very fortunate. Thanks to the team. I don't think I missed my numbers in 18 quarters except maybe once close. But we, it was, it's tough. Being a public company of the company is tough. I did that also at SAP. So the journey from 10 to 20 billion at SAP, the journey from six to 12 at VMware, that I was able to be fortunate. It's humbling because you, you really, you know, we used to have this, we do the earnings call and then we kind of ask ourselves, what, what do you think the stock price was gonna be a day and a half later? And we'd all take bets as to where this, I think you just basically, as a, as a sea level executive, you try to build a culture of beaten, raise, beaten, raise, beaten, raise, and you wanna set expectations in a way that you're not setting them up for failure. >>And you know, it's you, there's, Dave's a wonderful CEO as is Frank Salman. So it's hard for me to dissect. And sometimes the market are fickle on some small piece of it. But I think also the, when I, I encourage people say, take the long term view. When you take the long term view, you're not bothered about the ups and downs. If you're building a great company over the length of time, now it will be very clear over the arc of many, many quarters that you're business is trouble. If you're starting to see a decay in growth. And like, for example, when you start to see a growth, start to decay significantly by five, 10 percentage points, okay, there's something macro going on at this company. And that's what you won't avoid. But these, you know, ups and downs, my view is like, if you've got both Mongo D and snowflake are fantastic companies, they're CEOs of people I respect. They've actually kind of an, a, you know, advisor to us as a company, you knows moat very well. So we respect him, respect Frank, and you, there have been other quarters where Frank's, you know, the Snowflake's had a down result after that. So you build a long term and they are on the right side of history, snowflake, and both of them in terms of being a modern cloud relevant in the case of MongoDB, open source, two data technology, that's, you know, winning, I, I, we would like to be like them one day >>As, as the new CEO of cohesive, what are you most ask? What are you most anxious about and what are you most excited about? >>I think, listen, you know, you know, everything starts with the employee. You, I always believe I wrote my first memo to all employees. There was an article in Harvard business review called service profit chains that had a seminal impact on my leadership, which is when they studied companies who had been consistently profitable over a long period of time. They found that not just did those companies serve their customers well, but behind happy engaged customers were happy, engaged employees. So I always believe you start with the employee and you ensure that they're engaged, not just recruiting new employees. You know, I put on a tweet today, we're hiring reps and engineers. That's okay. But retaining. So I wanna start with ensuring that everybody, sometimes we have to make some unfortunate decisions with employees. We've, we've got a part company with, but if we can keep the best and brightest retained first, then of course, you know, recruiting machine, I'm trying to recruit the best and brightest to this company, people all over the place. >>I want to get them here. It's been, so I mean, heartwarming to come Tom world and just see people from all walks, kind of giving me hugs. I feel incredibly blessed. And then, you know, after employees, it's customers and partners, I feel like the tech is in really good hands. I don't have to worry about that. Cuz Mo it's in charge. He's got this thing. I can go to bed knowing that he's gonna keep innovating the future. Maybe in some of the companies I've worried about the tech innovation piece, but most doing a great job there. I can kind of leave that in his cap of hands, but employees, customers, partners, that's kind of what I'm focused on. None of them are for me, like a keep up at night, but there are are opportunities, right? And sometimes there's somebody you're trying to salvage to make sure or somebody you're trying to convince to join. >>But you know, customers, I love pursuing customers. I love the win. I hate to lose. So fortune 1000 global, 2000 companies, small companies, big companies, I wanna win every one of them. And it's not, it's not like, I mean, I know all these CEOs in my competitors. I texted him the day I joined and said, listen, I'll compete, honorably, whatever have you, but it's like Kobe and LeBron Kobe's passed away now. So maybe it's Steph Curry. LeBron, whoever your favorite athlete is you put your best on the court and you win. And that's how I am. That's nothing I've known no other gear than to put my best on the court and win, but do it honorably. It should not be the one that you're doing it. Unethically. You're doing it personally. You're not calling people's names. You're competing honorably. And when you win the team celebrates, it's not a victory for me. It's a victory for the team. >>I always think I'm glad that you brought up the employee experience and we're almost out of time, but I always think the employee experience and the customer experience are inextricably linked. This employees have to be empowered. They have to have the data that they need to do their job so that they can deliver to the customer. You can't do one without the other. >>That's so true. I mean, I, it's my belief. And I've talked also on this show and others about servant leadership. You know, one of my favorite poems is Brenda Naor. I went to bed in life. I dreamt that life was joy. I woke up and realized life was service. I acted in service was joy. So when you have a leadership model, which is it's about, I mean, there's lots of layers between me and the individual contributor, but I really care about that sales rep and the engineer. That's the leaf level of the organization. What can I get obstacle outta their way? I love skipping levels of going right. That sales rep let's go and crack this deal. You know? So you have that mindset. Yeah. I mean, you, you empower, you invert the pyramid and you realize the power is at the leaf level of an organization. >>So that's what I'm trying to do. It's a little easier to do it with 2000 people than I dunno, either 20, 20, 2000 people or 35,000 reported me at VMware. And I mean a similar number at SAP, which was even bigger, but you can shape this. Now we are, we're not a startup anymore. We're a midsize company. We'll see. Maybe along the way, there's an IP on the path. We'll wait for that. When it comes, it's a milestone. It's not the destination. So we do that and we are, we, I told people we are gonna build this green company. Cohesive is gonna be a great company like VMware one day, like Amazon. And there's always a day of early beginnings, but we have to work harder. This is kind of like the, you know, eight year old version of your kid, as opposed to the 18 year old version of the kid. And you gotta work a little harder. So I love it. Yeah. >>Good luck. Awesome. Thank you. Best of luck. Congratulations. On the role, it sounds like there's a tremendous amount of adrenaline, a momentum carrying you forward Sanjay. We always appreciate having you. Thank >>You for having in your show. >>Thank you. Our pleasure, Lisa. Thank you for Sanja poin and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022, stick around our next guest. Join us momentarily.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of you. I path live the release show brought to you by you. I path everyone. Welcome back. This is Dave Vellante for the human. We've been covering the r P a market now for quite some time. Yeah, I pastor said this huge announcement. Then we're gonna update you on the space. As you know, we've been quantifying this with our partners at ET are one of the areas that you I path is obviously focused on talking about scaling. If you wanna win in r p. A. You got a scale you want to scale. You gotta have cloud, though. Eric Metaphor is here. He's the director of product management. That you either path, We're gonna talk Cloud. Tara. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. Didn't get to see you as well. >>Yes. So you know, you guys have this huge announcement. Um, there are really four major components, if you will. That you extended the core platform. You talked about more automation? More ai smarter robots. The whole end to end. When you guys talk about the what? Sometimes it gets a little buzz, wordy, but that hyper automation, it's got to be end end. You've got to take a systems view, and then you got to put the tools in the hands of regular people. If you want to have a robot for every person, it's got to be simple. You've got to democratize uh, R p A. So my question is, where does the cloud fit into all this? >>You know, the cloud is the one that wraps it all up together. So for us, it's very important to make it easy for people to start instantly. You when you when you start to decide that you want to do in investment in r P A. And you really want to get started very quickly. And the second thing is, you eventually want to grow that are being investment, and the cloud makes it super easy for you to scale out of it. So Cloud makes it easy for you to start instantly and scaling. >>You think about the cloud you know, kind of started with. I guess it's sort of started with Salesforce back in 1999 kind of pre cloud. But certainly, you know so many functions and software areas have been cloud ified. You saw it with the email. You certainly where you start with I t s m. Which was kind of a heavy lift. You certainly see it with With HR. You seen it with data protection and backup. You see, do you see r p A. Is kind of the next big wave of cloud ification. >>Well, I absolutely think that cloud is gonna be very big in our be a. So from our perspective, when you start thinking about are you really thinking about automation? You want your automation is the light up and to save you money and to cut time for you and the investment thing that's going to remind what's going through your mind is not setting up infrastructure and, you know, configuring machines and selling software to make our p possible that the cloud makes it super easy for you to just cut down that I t infrastructure investment and go right ahead into what you really care about, which is the automation. So I think it's gonna be big that we allow you to just go directly to automation. I want RB start thinking about automation for good infrastructure lead that blood. >>So there's obviously you hear a lot of narrative in the marketplace about Cloud Cloud native. You see some companies or dogmatic will never do on had Frank's loop in a little while ago. So we're not doing our friend. That's Ah, that's a halfway house. You guys have taken a different approach, obviously started on Prem and now you're moving to the cloud. What? What's your philosophy on that? You know, Why wouldn't everybody do Cloud >>makes sense. So for us, we're very pragmatic about We believe that customers are different stages in their cloud adoption. Some people are extremely cloud friendly and have already put in place at plans for making sure that everything is already in the cloud. There are companies that are cloud native. They were born in the cloud that if you go a nascent install a piece of software in the local server, they would just laugh at you. So that's on one end of the spectrum and you want to make sure that those people can take full capability of our. On the other hand, there are people who are still, you know, coming from on Prem servers who are trying to move to the cloud to have plans to move to the cloud who would like to try some components in the CLI. But they still have some legacy systems that exist on Prem or a lot of systems that exist, and we want to make sure that those people are also able to take care of our key. And on the other end of the spectrum, there are industries or some companies and some industries that just are not ready for the cloud at all. And from our perspective, we want to democratize our key. We want our P available for everyone. So it is our philosophy that we're going to give you a multitude of the women options. If you want on Prem all the way, we got it. If you want cloud all the way we got, you want the hybrid assistant, We got it. We're just going to make it possible for you. And the deployment choice is your choice >>and the experience on Prem and Cloud. It's substantially identical. Would you say it's completely identical? What? What's the Delta? >>That is absolutely one of our goals. It is absolutely a gore for Google for you. I have to make sure that if you are an on Prem customer and you are starting to use some cloud, that your experiences seamless between on premises and in the cloud if you are a cloud customer and you have some components that still exist on Prem, if you want to use them, is very important for us that you have that common experience between both. So our software is designed with a common experience of the core, and it's actually the same software that runs from a user experience perspective in the cloud and on premises. Now, obviously, a lot of the infrastructure is different than a lot of the security aspects are different. But the user experience itself is, you know, consistently the same and intentionally that way. >>So when people talk about cloud or not, this is often site, you know, several things. Clearly, Layton sees a factor. If your data lives on, you know, on Prem, maybe you want to do things on Prem. There's local laws, data sovereignty. Uh, there's there's corporate edicts. Okay, we're not going to the cloud now. Maybe with Covad, that's that's changing somewhat, but so what are you hearing from customers just in terms of the rationale on Prem versus Cloud Hybrid. What are some of the decision points? >>Those are all good points, Dave. That's exactly the kind of stuff that we hear from our customers. So I think the main things that we hear in terms of cloud is about security people rightfully. So. When you start talking about cloud that they start asking, Can I really trust you as a vendor? With my data, I'm giving you my sales data. I'm giving you my HR data. I mean, this is some confidential information. Can I really trust you with that data? So that's one thing we absolutely, I start taking care off with large focus on security, and I can definitely dive deeper into that if you want. In addition to that, privacy and data sovereignty and where data lives is a big deal. So from our perspective, we host your data as an enterprise customer in three different locations. We host demand. We have servers in the United States. We have servers in Europe. We have servers in Japan, and as a customer you get to choose where data lives and we keep it the way you thoughts s so that kind of helps with data sovereignty because some countries, as you mentioned or some cos there's mentioned really have strict rules about that. Also, that helps with the legacy aspect. So if you're a customer in Japan, you would really prefer to use our Japan Data Center as opposed to a You know, your it's simple. >>The customers care, like where your cloud infrastructure lives. Are they asking you about that? They did they? Did they probe you on that? I mean specifically in terms of your cloud partner, like maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Absolutely. People definitely care about who we use and where the data is going to lie. And so from our perspective, for example, we're partnered with Microsoft and all our infrastructures. They don't Microsoft Azure, and, uh, we use data centers from Microsoft Azure through the whole start stuff, and that's a really good for multiple reads as it provides some very good uptime and reliability guarantees. In addition to that, they have service around the world that we can utilize so that we can expect, for example, for a next frontier becomes for example, in Australia, New Zealand. Then we want to create a reason they're being on top of Azure really allows us to go and spend that off pretty quickly and help customers that way. >>So we don't want things about Cloud is you can you can experiment very cheaply and you can fail fast and then iterating. So one of the things that struck me about your announcement was your community edition. I always look for, you know, Is there a community edition? Is that in addition, free for life? Is it neutered? In other words, can I actually do anything with it? Um, so I was happy to see that you guys had that. And also happy to see I mean, you've got I think it's early days for you, but I think that you have 200 enterprise customers, two orders of magnitude greater than that from the community edition. Did I get that right? >>That's great. Yes, absolutely. So when you think about the automation, cloud comes into play. But we have a community, the one for community, and that is the free version. And it's as you said, it's not like a pretrial or three limited time or something. It was just free as in free, free forever. We're gonna keep it to you. That's all you need. Just use it. No questions asked. You know, be happy with it. And the community edition actually is, is a fully functional product, and it allows you to do to get to attended robots one unattended robot and you get the option of connecting up the studio to two studios for designing animations. Work with those s so it's it's it allows it. That's all your automation needs, like small automation needs. Just go ahead and use it. If you're a small company or an individual or a small team, just use the community edition and you want to use that production. That's fine. No problem. That's all you need to go for it, then the and we have tens of thousands of community customers that are actively using the product. I'm not talking about the people that have ever signed up on left. Those are a lot more than that, but I'm talking about actually actively using the product. We've got tens of thousands of users as they're using it every month and built on that same infrastructure comes our Enterprise Edition, and the Enterprise edition is a basically the same infrastructure. But it adds a number of capabilities that are useful for a larger enterprise, of course, the most important of which is an uptime guarantee. So, you know, with the community edition, obviously we keep the service. Often we have very good response times, but with enterprise, you actually get enough time guarantee. In addition to that, you get access to our sport. They have a dedicated support team that works 24 7 around the clock and multiple reasons, and you get guaranteed response times with the mass away. On top of that, you get to be able to purchase is many robots as you want, and the list goes on and on and on. And it's very easy to go. Like you said, from playing with community, working with community, using that doing a trial, it's instinct as well. You just click a button, and all of a sudden, now you have five robots that each night that you can use for 60 days, and from there you can just go ahead and buy. >>We'll talk more about the uptime guarantee is that basically Azure s l A. So the data layer on top of that, you know, what are we measuring there? You could add some color. >>Absolutely. A startup and guarantee is built on top of azure, obviously. But we provide our own uptime guarantee regardless of what happens in the underlying system. Eso From our perspective, we guarantee that the service is going to be out at a specific amount of time. So we measure the number of minutes every month that the service should actually be up. And we measure the number of ministers service experiences, any kind of downtime. And we measure down. I'm in multiple ways. So we do outside in testing. Or, you know, if you're a customer, are you able to reach our service or not that we do incredible detail the monitoring and reporting on the life off our service itself from inside and And we look at any minute, any of those the services that we use underlying services are not responding to customers, and we count those down as well. So and we guarantee that there's a specific number of minutes that the service will be down, and that's >>it. And So if I understand it, you're really taking an application. You It's not the light on the server. It's It's the it's Can I get to you as a customer? Yeah. My state, my service, your >>perspective. Are you able to reach our service and do what you're expected to do with it? That's what you as a customer, really care about and in turn, that's the right way for us to be measuring up. >>And if I don't? If you don't hit, that s L. A. What? I get re credit. So how does that >>work? Absolutely, we have in our agreements and provision for penalties on the outside, we don't hit that escalate. And similarly for support. You know, if you call support, you're guaranteed depending on the severity of the issue on the back of contract that sport. Uh, you know how many minutes it takes us for somebody to be engaged with you on that issue? And we have very good numbers and hitting. That s L. A. And if we don't? They're also penalties on the outside for that. I think this is a real enterprise services you'd expect. >>Yeah, Great. I want to get to take some examples. You've got a couple 100 customers I think you mentioned should hopefully was up and running very quickly. I think you had some other examples, but but what can you share with us in terms of actual experience that your customers have seen? >>Absolutely. So we were thinking a very measured and careful approach, actually launching our service. So even though our service literally just launched last week fully to the world, we have actually been enabling enterprise customers we've been. We started a private preview with four customers and back in April of last year. And then we extended that to a public preview for any customer to try our service, as is no payment but also no guarantees. Back in the day, I want to say June of last year and then it took us all the way to December to feel comfortable that the services of the place where when we launch it, customers are going to get an excellent quality. And that's when we did a what we call a limited availability where we started on boarding enterprise customers step by step. We started with 10. We went to 50. We went to 100 now we have a couple 100 customers that already signed up, using the enterprise product every day as a guaranteed service and getting that Sele's that we've promised. So this was the time when we said, You know what? I think we've definitely been meeting our SL A's for five months running. Now we feel very comfortable lunch the rest, >>even if it's anecdotal. Have you discerned appreciable change in people's attitude toward cloud as a result of over? >>Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's just the aspect of working from home and having a lot of people just not available either demand infrastructure or demand servers made. A lot of people think about what is the best way to continue to run on information while they're at it. And obviously there's nothing easier than granting access to someone in the cloud to access a service from home. Then, if you were to bring them access to an on premise service with BP and all that stuff, and then if you want the provisioning new robots and machines and you have to do that again on premises, you know it's it's it's a lot more complicated. So a lot of customers are really starting to look at the cloud so many of the conversations that we would have, obviously we come in and they would ask us about the capabilities of our system. They would ask about security that ask a lot of things and those discussions, you know, anywhere between, you know, a few days to sometimes a few months. You know, some customers is just a great for those. The volume of customers that's asking about cloud is definitely increasing good for us. Obviously the number of deals were signed exalts increasing. But most importantly, I think that the number of customers that are benefiting from the value of starting instantly like cloud scale easily in the cloud. And you mentioned the example of Chipotle. And while that was engagement that we had obviously for the core of it, you know, they were very impressed with what they were able to do with The came in and falling and team had budgeted about two weeks to get started and set up everything so that they can build on top of that in their automation. And they, they chose wisely, do start in the cloud and As a result, they were done and all set up in one day. So it is definitely a huge difference between what you're able to get in the cloud person. So what you're doing? >>Well, you have passed all about automation. And and so is the cloud. The superpowers of this decade Cloud data A You guys were, you know, at the heart of all those Eric. Thanks so much for coming on the cube in explaining sort of your cloud angle. Really Appreciate your time. >>Thank you very much, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. >>Alright? And thank you for watching everybody. More coverage on the r p. A market analysis digging into your past recent announcement stable people want to have right back right after this short break. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this cute conversation sponsored by Dell EMC today we're gonna cover deli MCS next-generation data protection announcement but before we get into it I want to talk a little bit about data is data an asset or a liability you know many years ago people used to look at data because it was growing so fast it was so expensive to manage they looked at it really is a liability that had to be managed but that's changed data today is viewed as an asset why is that I would say it's because a digital business what's the difference between a business in a digital business we think it's how they use data digital businesses put data at the core it's their most important asset they're trying to figure out how data contributes to the moneth estate monetization or the mission of the business the problem is the data is plentiful but insights really aren't people want insights that drive business impact in a digital world protecting that data has never been more critical but it's complicated you've got data on prem you've got data in the cloud you've got data at the edge so what we've seen post acquisition of emc by dell is the company has dramatically accelerated the cadence of announcements and they're further enhancing their portfolio today and we're gonna talk about that we've got really three segments today I'm gonna talk to a real Barret about the announcement in the hard news we're gonna look at a short video and then Beth Phelan the president of the Dell UMC Data Protection Division is gonna come in and talk about the vision so let's get right into it Rhea Barret great to see you again thanks for coming on thank you so much Dave it's always a pleasure being here yeah well you've been here a few times this year haven't you a few times yeah quake coming here to opening presents on a holiday because it's the professional equivalent and I think we've been here four times already this year yeah that's right we had you here early in the winter and then of course pre Dell technologies world and we talked about those the survey that you guys did and here we are again so okay so you've got this market momentum I talked about that a little bit the space is is growing what's the news today we have some exciting before I talk about the news though I do want to talk about when we were here in April if you remember we introduced some exciting new products into our portfolio it was protocol power protect Data Manager our brand new next-generation software for data management we introduced an integrated appliance power protect x-series the multi-dimensional appliances basically as well as an IDP a a terabyte IDP a again these are all important because they're proof points of our commitment to our customers in terms of delivering industry-leading appliances as well as software-defined solutions to meet their ever-growing ever more complicated data protection environments from the core to the edge to the cloud so as I said I mean you guys are accelerating the cadence of announcements so how does all that fit in to what you're announcing today what are you introducing I'm actually really this is an exciting present for me because as you know in February when we talked about data domain we were celebrating a very important milestone data domain has been the bedrock and the foundation of our portfolio and since its inception it not only defined a brand new market and disrupted an existing market but it also led the market for over a decade as the as the lead product and the lead solution that customers chose that makes us announcement and this president even sweeter because I'm really here to introduce the next generation data domain power protect dd the ultimate data protection appliance so power protect that's that's kind of the new brand that you guys are using yeah and and so that's that's exactly the Cadell using it across its entire portfolio yeah we're powering up the portfolio and data protection is no exception we're introducing three new models under the new power protect DD umbrella its power protect sixty nine hundred ninety four hundred and ninety nine hundred that's replacing actually four four models and we're also what you'll notice is the power protect the DD 3300 as well as the power protect virtual edition will be parts of the solution for our customers so how how should we think about the value from a customer perspective that you're delivering yeah that's great at the end of the day it's all about customer value and when we think about data domain and what it meant to our customers in terms of proven solutions it's all about the next generation really taking that and and even even raising the bar further so for customers what are they looking for a cloud is everywhere so multi cloud is one of those facets the other is really around performance efficiency and security because those issues are never going away if not only getting exasperated and multi-dimensional appliance portfolio it's part of a bigger portfolio which is important from giving our customers choice so what about the business impact I mean sharing metrics or data I mean how do we you know quantify this sure absolutely it's we're all about measurement and data it's very important and customers really want to understand the value so you look at let's go one by one let's look at fast customers what are they trying to do what's the urgency it's all about restore speeds and what we're seeing with the power protect DD series is SL O's where customers have up to 38 percent faster backups and 36 percent faster restores so again really critical for our customers let's talk about efficiency next that's been a bedrock customers want efficiency because number one it really impacts their cost of ownership and with the new power protect DD series we're seeing 25 percent more usable capacity in half the rack space and and that's the case for the DD 9900 which means that one DD 9900 can replace 2 DD 9800 racks in the same footprint lower TCO is critical again we're doing the efficiency really matters because we're trying to make sure as the data growth is there as customers are looking for performance their cost of protection isn't going linearly up with that and with our new systems we're seeing up to 65 to 1 data reduction and that's really allowing us to be able to have up to 81 petabytes of logical data stored in the 9900 s so again up to sixty two point five percent more logical capacity per rack which is unheard of as well as the ability to grow in place grow in in in place capacity so customers can license have shelves and and you know seamlessly scale up within the family well it because people you know they want to keep investing in data centers that's a big part of you know the cloud value proposition so you know being able to more efficiently use the existing spaces keep what about you know ransomware is a hot topic how you guys how does this announcement fit into what you're doing you know with your ransomware solutions thank you Dave actually secure is one of our our pillars so it's fast efficient secure and Security's all about really customers being able to recover under any stringent circumstance and the security our cyber recovery solution is basically completely integrated into the power protect DD where customers can recover in in the event of a ransomware attack so it's that air-gap ability to be able to make sure that even in the you know most taxing recovery scenario that you have a solution and what about what about the cloud cloud is a target I mean that's a big topic of conversation there's a lot of use cases dr and many others where does the cloud fit into yeah you can't have a data protection solution if you can't address a multitude of cloud use cases protection use cases so that's in terms of being able to protect information to the cloud protect information from the cloud and protect information in the cloud and with our cloud long-term retention with our cloud tearing capabilities built in on day one customers will be able to get a slew of capabilities that is a page basically built into the products so i said you've been accelerating the pace of announcements can you paint a picture of the portfolio how should we think about it now oh yeah absolutely again i think one of the most important elements that the dull emc data protection portfolio brings to bear for our customers regardless of their you know size and scope is flexibility in terms of their needs whether it's our purpose-built appliances our integrated appliances or a software-defined solutions and the power protect DD Series is part of this now multi-dimensional portfolio so being able to scale up with the power protect DD series appliances as well as scale out with the power protect x-series appliances whether it's integrated or hybrid whether it's all I mean integrated or Target whether it's all flash or hybrid whether it's really an appliance or software define that's the amount of flexibility that our customers have to be able to make sure any workload no matter where it resides will get protected and meet their solos in the lowest cost of ownership possible well space used to be pretty straightforward really you know you backup an on-prem you know system and that was kind of it now you got the cloud you got the edge you got there you know ransomware all kinds of complicated stuff going on so congratulations on the announcement and it was great to have you again always a pleasure thank you Dave you're welcome all right keep it right here we're gonna watch a short video and then we'll come back with Beth Phelan bright back we're not ready to say job well done we keep working building comprehensive technology that protects and manages your data from the edge to the core to the cloud we won't rest at being your number one we evolved creating technology that's fast secure and even more efficient that reduces the risk of data loss we are forging the future by building on the past Dell EMC power protect DD series the next generation of data domain protection storage appliances the power protect DD series provides up to one point two five petabytes of capacity in a single rack using 30 percent higher data compression to lower costs but there's more to this appliance than a beautiful form it's also the preferred protection storage for data that's backed up and managed by power protect software power protects DD series appliances help you simplify your multi cloud environments and gain more efficient operations and because data protection capacity is challenging to predict we engineered our multi-dimensional power protect appliance portfolio with flexibility and agility at its core you can easily scale up and scale out to future-proof your environment Dell EMC power protect DD series the ultimate protection storage appliance we're back with Beth Phelan who's the president of the Dell MC data protection division that's good to see you it's great to be here you've been busy we have been so what's on your mind these days you know just adding to what we are said before this is a huge announcement in the history of data domain which by itself changed the data protection industry and now as we introduce power protect dd we're bringing that proven technology into the future couldn't be more excited what are some of the highlights that you're really into that you know get you excited for customers yeah I mean we recovered much of it but one thing that I'm particularly convinced it's going to be a game-changer is enabling data reuse customers don't want their backup data to be locked away more and more customers want to take advantage of it either for a quick recovery or for analytics tests and of and so with the improvements that we've made with instant access and instant recovery now up to 60 concurrent VMs can be available from your power protect DD 60,000 a ops we're really changing the way data domain can be used power tech dd makes it something that they can use not only for their backup for also a whole set of data reuse cases so under your leadership your division has really accelerated the the announcement cadence how about the software side of things I mean how does that relate if people want you know they think cloud that thinks SAS how is that effect your business I mean I hope people remember that just back here in July we announced power protect data manager which is our next generation software it includes power protect central which is a SAS based capability starting out with monitoring but over time we'll be filling that out Palpa Tech Data Manager is finely tuned to work with power track dd so while you know the prevalence of data domain historically has really been you know built on the fact that we let customers choose right if they want to use Dell EMC software wonderful but if they've already made a choice we also have always supported that broad ecosystem we will continue that with power protect dd but the best choice in our view is going to continue to be to use Dell EMC software and now with power protect Data Manager you're going to get absolute best capabilities combined with power protect DD so make sure I understand so you say Dell EMC on Dell EMC you're gonna get you know the best experience but if for whatever reason I choose some other product I can integrate in absolutely great how about disaster recovery it's a key topic it's a painful topic it's expensive you know that historically you've seen the three site dr it's usually bespoke separate tools what are you doing for customers around deal yeah so the nice thing is that in this world of multi-cloud configurations it's easier and easier for more companies to actually have a full dr strategy by doing cloud disaster recovery you can set up your environment without those sort of old-school approach of having a separate on-prem facility that was just for disasters doesn't seem viable as we go forward I expect fewer and fewer companies will choose that so with poverty' DD on day one combined with power protect data manager they'll be able to use our cloud disaster recovery capabilities that include orchestration just three steps to failover two steps to fail back and you get all the benefits of disaster recovery but at a lower cost the ability agility by leveraging the cloud provider of your choice we the market has really changed a lot since the days when he had data replacing tape yeah it was pretty straightforward and now you've got the you know the cloud you got the edge you have hybrid you've got heightened security concerns so you have to be kind of a trend spotter in your role what are you seeing as sort of where you're taking this what's the vision for the division and the organization yeah our strategy has been very consistent we're recognizing that data is first that we have to align closely with the application managers to make it easy for those customers to protect their data seamlessly but at the same time we have to protect that data no matter where it is on-premise on the edge in the cloud and no matter how customers are deploying their applications so we're continuing to execute on our multi-dimensional appliance and software-defined data protection strategy but we're now augmenting that with a concept of global scale and I think that that global scale concept is going to really bring us into the future so I've said many times that you know we've moved beyond the innovation of stemming from Moore's Law that's not the heart of it anymore it's data it's machine intelligence and artificial intelligence and it's cloud because of scale so explain further global scale and what you mean by that so what we found is you know obviously customers enjoy the benefits of scale out we have that with the X 400 where they need those benefits of easy expansion of capacity easy movement of backup data sets across location to meet that capacity intelligent placement of that backup data sets we need that capability beyond a single appliance and so as we think about the concept of global scale we're looking at how do we enable all of our multi-dimensional appliances to participate in those use cases and bring those benefits across the ecosystem so breaking some of those physical barriers and being able to view my data in its in its form which is also just distributed right all right good exciting congratulations we'll see you next month probably well thanks again for for coming on and sharing this this announcement and we'll be watching thank you for watching everybody you can get more information I'm sure at deli mc.com right you guys got your data protection side of the site so go there check it out and thanks for watching everybody we'll see you next time

>> from Burlingame, California It's the Cube covering Suma logic Illuminate 2019. Brought to You by Sumer Logic. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube worth, assume a logic illuminate 2019 of it. It's at the Hyatt Regency San Francisco airport. About 809 100 people are second year. It's a 30 year of the event, excited to be here and watch it grow. We've seen a bunch of these things grow from little to bigger over a number of years, and it's always funded kind of beer for the zenith. We're excited to do it by our next guest. She's an analyst. It's Nancy Goering, senior analyst for 4 51 research. Nancy, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Absolutely so first off, Just kind of impressions of the event here. >> Yeah, good stuff. You know, like he's definitely trying to, you know, get on top of some of the big trends. You know, The big news here was their new Cooper nineties monitoring, also obviously kind of staying on the the leading edge of the cloud. Native Technologies. >> It's it's amazing how fast it's growing, you know, doing some research for this. Then I found some of your stuff out on the Internet and just one quote. I think it's from years ago, but just for people to kind of understand the scale, I think, he said, Google was launching four billion containers a week. Twitter had 12,000. Service is uber 4000. Micro service is Yelp and Justin 25 million data points per minute. I think this is like a two or three year old presentation. I mean, the scale in which the data is moving is astronomical. >> Yeah, well, I mean, if you think of Google launching four billion containers every week, they're collecting a number of different data points about a container spinning up about the operation of that container while it's alive about the container spinning down. So it's not even just four billion pieces of data. It's, you know, multiply that by 10 20 or many more. So, yeah, So the volume of operations dated that people are faced with is just, you know, out of this world, and some of that is beginning to get abstracted away, terms of what you need to look at. So, you know, Kubernetes is an orchestration engine so that's helping move things around. You still need to collect that data to inform automation tools, right? So even if you was, even if humans aren't really looking at it, it's being used to drive automation, right? It still has to be collected, >> right, And they're still configurations and settings and and dials. And it seems like a lot of the breaches that we hear about today are people just miss configuring something on us. It's human error. And so how do we kind of square the circle? Because the date is only growing. The quantity sources, the complexity, Yeah, the lack of structure. And that's before we had a I ot And now we got edge devices and they're all reporting in from from home. Yeah, crazy problem. It's >> really, I think, driving a lot of the investments in the focus and more sophisticated analytics, right? So that's why you're hearing a lot more about machine learning. And a I in this space is because humans can't just look at that huge volume >> of data and >> figure out what it means. So the development of machine learning tools, for instance, is gonna pull out a piece of data that's important. Here is the anomaly. This is the thing you should be paying attention to. Andi, obviously getting increasingly sophisticated, right? In terms of correlating data from different parts of your infrastructure in order to yet make sense of it, >> right? And then, Oh, by the way, they're all made up of micro service is a literal interconnected in AP eyes. The third party providers. Yeah. I mean, the complexity is ridicu >> and then, you know, and I've been actually thinking and talking a lot recently about organizational issues within companies that exacerbate some of these challenges. So you mentioned Micro Service is so ah, lot of times, you know, you've got Dev ops groups and an individual Dev Ops group is responsible for a or multiple. Micro service is right. They're all running, sort of autonomous. They're doing their own thing, right? So they could move quickly. But is there anybody overseeing the application that's made up of maybe 1000 Micro Service's? And in some cases, the answer is no. And so it may look like all the Micro Service's are operating well, but the user experience actually is not good, and no one really notices until the user starts complaining. So it's like things start. You know, you have to think about organizational things. Who's responsible for that, right? You know, if you're on a Dev ops team and your job has been to support the certain service's and not the whole, like who's responsible for the whole application and that's it's a challenge, it's something. Actually, in our surveys, we're hearing from people that they're looking for people that skill set, someone who understands how to look at Micro Service's as they work together to deliver a service, right? It's it's a It's a pain point. Shouldn't >> the project the product manager for that application would hopefully have some instances abilities to kind of what they're trying to optimize for? >> In some cases, they're not technical enough, right? A product manager doesn't necessarily have the depth to know that, or they're not used to using the types of tools that the Dev Ops team or the operations team would use to track the performance of an application. So sometimes it's just a matter of having the right tooling in front of them, >> and then even the performance I was like What do you optimizing four you optimized for security up the mind thing for speed are optimizing for yeah, you can optimize for everything if you got a stack rank order at some point in time. So that would also then drive in a different prioritization or the way that you look at those doctorsservices performance. Yeah, interesting. It's another big topic that comes up often is the vision of a single pane of glass in You know, I can't help but think is in my work day. You know how often I'm tabbing between, you know, sales force and email and slack and asana and, um, a couple of browsers air open. I mean, it's it's it's bananas, you know, it's no longer just that that email is the only thing that's open on my desk all day and only imagine the Dev Ops world. No, we saw just crazy complexity around again, managing all the micro service's of the AP eyes. So what's kind of the story? What are you seeing in kind of the development of that? And there's so many vendors now, and so many service is yeah, it's not just we're just gonna put in HB open view, and that's the standard, and that's what we're all right on. >> So if you're looking at it from the lens of of monitoring or observe ability or performance. Traditionally, you had different tools that looked at, say, different layers of a service, so you had a tool that was looking at infrastructure. Was your infrastructure monitoring tool. You had an application performance monitoring tool. You might have a network performance monitoring tool. You might have point tools that are looking just at the data base layer. But as things get more complicated, Azadliq ations are getting much more complex. Looking at that data in a silo tool tends to obscure the bigger picture. You don't understand when you're looking at the's separate tools how some piece of infrastructure might be impacting the application, for instance. And so the idea is to bring all of that operations data about the performance of an application in tow. One spot where you can run again, these more sophisticated analytics so that you can understand the relationship between the different layers of the application stack also horizontally, right? So how micro service's that are dependent on each other? How one micro service might be impacting the performance of another. So that's conceptually the idea behind having a single pane of glass. Now the execution can happen in a bunch of different ways, so you can have one vendor. There are vendors that are growing horizontally, so they're collecting data across the stack. And there's other vendors that are positioning themselves as that sort of central data repositories, so they may not directly collect all of that data. But they might in just some data that another monitoring vendor has collected. So there's an end. You know, there's there's always going to be good arguments for best of breed tools, right? So, you know, in most cases, businesses are not going to settle on just one monitoring tool that does it all. But that's conceptually the reason, right, and you want to bring all of this data together. However you get it, however, it's being collected so that you can analyze it and understand that big picture performance of a complicated application, >> right? But then, even then, as you said, you don't even want, you're not really monitoring the application performance per se. You're just waiting for the you're waiting for some of those needles to fall out of the haystack because you just you just can't get that much stuff. And you know, it's where do you focus your priority? You know what's most critical? What needs attention now. And if without a machine to help kind of point you in the right direction, you're gonna have a hard time finding that needle. >> And there's a lot of different approaches that are beginning to develop. So one is this idea of SL owes or service level objectives. And so, for instance, a really common service level objective that teams are looking at is Leighton. See, So this Leighton see of the service should never drop under whatever ah 100 milliseconds. And and if it does, I want to be alerted. And also if it drops below that objective for a certain amount of time, that can actually help you as a team. Allocate, resource is so if you're not living up to that service level objective, maybe you should shift some people's time toe working on improving the application instead of developing a new feature, right? So it can really help you prioritize your time because you know what? There was a time when people in operations teams or Dev. Ops teams had a really hard time, and they still d'oh figuring out which problems are important because you've always people always have a lot of performance problems going on. So which do you focus your time on? And it's been pretty opaque. It's hard to see. Is this performance impacting the bottom line of my business? Is this impacting? You know, my customers? Are we losing business over this? Like that's That's a really common question that people I can't answer, right? So there you people are beginning to develop these approaches to try to figure out how to prioritize work on performance problems. It's >> interesting because the other one that and some of you mentioned before is kind of this post incident review instead of a post boredom. And, you know, you talked about culture and words matter, and I think that's a really interesting take because it's it's it implies we're gonna learn, and we're gonna go forward. It's dead. Um, yeah, you know, we're gonna yell at each other and someone's gonna get blamed. That's exactly it. And we're going to move on. So, you know, how is that kind of evolved in. And how does that really help organizations do a better job? >> There's, I mean, there's there's much more of a focus on setting aside time to do that kind of analysis, right? So look at how we're performing as a team. Look at how we responded to an incident so that you can find ways that you can do better next time and some of that Israel tactical right? It's tweaking alerts. Did we not get an alert? You know, did we not even know this problem was happening? So maybe you build new alerts or sport get rid of a bunch of alerts that did nothing. You know, there's there's a lot you can learn on again to To your point, I think part of the reason people have started calling in a post Incident review instead of a postmortem is because yet you don't want that to be a session where people are feeling like Blaine. You know, this is my fault. I screwed up. I spent way too long on this, so I >> had to >> set things out properly. It's it's meant to be productive. Let's find the weak points and fill them right. Fill those gaps. >> It's funny you had another. There's another thing I found where you were talking about not not necessarily the Post Borden, but you know, people, people being much more proactive, much more, you know, thoughtful as to how they are going to take care of these things. And it is really more of a social cultural change unnecessarily. The technical piece that culture pieces. So so >> it is and especially, you know, right now there's a lot of focus on on tooling and that can cause some, you know, interesting issues. So, you know, especially in an organization that has really adopted Dev ops practices like the idea of a Dev Ops team is that it's very autonomous. They do what they do, what they need to do right to move fast and to get the job done. And that often includes choosing your own tools, but that that has created a number of problems, especially in monitoring. So if you have 100 Dev ops teams and they all have chosen their own, monitoring tools like this is not efficient, so it's not. It's not a good idea because those tools aren't talking to each other, even though they're micro service's that are dependent on each other. It's inefficient. From a business perspective. You've got all these relationships with vendors, and in some cases, with a single vendor, you might have 50 instances of the same monitoring tool that you know you have 50 accounts with them, like that's just totally inefficient. And then you've got people on a Dev ops, an individual, all the all the individual Dev ops teams have a person who's supposed to be the resident expert in these tools, like maybe you should share that knowledge across. But my point is, you get into the situation where you have hundreds of monitoring tools, sometimes 40 50 monitoring tools. You realize that's a problem. How do you address that problem? Because you're gonna have to go out and tell people you can't use this tool that you love. That helps you do your job that you chose. And so again, this whole cultural question comes out like, How do you manage that transition in a way that's gonna be productive? >> Thea other one that you brought up that was interesting is where the the sport team basically tells the business team you only have X number of incidents. We're gonna give you a budget. Yeah, exceed the budget. We're not going to help you. It's a really different way to think about prioritization. I >> don't necessarily think that's a great approach, but I mean, there was somebody who did that, but I think it's kind of it's kind of >> an interesting thing. And you talked about it in that. I think it was one of your presentations or speeches where, you know, it makes you kind of rethink. You know, why do we have so many incidents? Yeah, and there shouldn't be that many incidents, and maybe some of the responsibility should be shifted to think about why in the how and is more of a systemic problem than a feature problem or a bug, right? It's a broken code. So again, I think there's so many kind of cultural opportunities to rethink this. In a world of continuous development, continuous publishing and continuous pushing out of new code. Yeah, yeah, sure. All right. Nancy will. Thanks for taking a few minutes, and it's really great to talk to you. Thanks >> for having me. >> Alright. She's Nancy. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube where it's Uma Logic illuminate 2019. Thanks for watching. We'll see next time