>>From the Mandalay convention center in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the queue at IBM. Insight 2014 here is your host, Dave Vellante. >>Hi, welcome back to IBM insight everybody. This is Dave Volante with John furrier. We're here with the cube. The cube is our live mobile studio. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. Carla Gentry is here otherwise known as at data nerd. Carla, great to see you. Welcome to the cube. You are a data scientists. Do you have your own company? Um, we were just talking to, uh, to dr Ahmed Bouloud from a university in um, Istanbul and he said, well, it's data science. It really, really isn't a such thing as a data scientist. And so he and I are arguing a little about it. So I said, come back and see Carla, right? You're a data scientist, right? >>Well, you know, right out of college I started with a RJ criminal associates up in Chicago. And um, that that's what we all were a bunch of data nerds in there playing around with terabytes of data before anybody even knew what a terabyte one terabyte was really big. Right? Right back when the terabyte was big data, but a, you know, gleaning insight for a discover financial services. And then, you know, I've worked with consumer packaged goods, the education, I mean it's, it's been a wonderful, wonderful career. And what's so great about this is to be able to walk around and see how much data is a part of more people's lives now than it was 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago you couldn't have, you know, gotten thousands of people together talking about data analytics. Well, you know, the interesting thing about what you're saying without you, you CPG education, financial services, John and I talk about this a lot, how the data layer is becoming a transport mechanism to connect the dots across different industries and data scientists. >>You guys don't like to get locked into one little industry niche. Do you you'd like to gather data from all types of different sources? Talk about that. Well, that's the thing. Uh, unfortunately, uh, we get bored very easily because, you know, we like to have our fingers in a lot of different pies. But, you know, you wouldn't want to be necessarily siloed with just one kind of information because curiosity makes you think about everything. Education, risk, you know, I'm that way. I have no walls. You know, I can, I can glean insight from any type of data. If you've got a database, uh, we can jump in with both feet. Is data is data and why is the data more transformative today in this day and age, you know, circa 2014 versus say, when you came out of college, why is it that everybody's talking about data that data is able to, to change industries, transform industries. >>What's different? Well, now the, you know, data can actually give you, you know, an insight into your customer mean, you know, what is your customer buying, you know? Um, so when you go to, you know, run a campaign or something like that, you, you're not shooting in the dark. You know, you're actually, you have a face to your customer. So you know, you can make decisions and it's not just marketing, you know, which is what I started out in, you know, trying to do increase and lift, you know, sales. But now you know, you have risk, you have, you know, data breaches. You have, you know, what keeps CEOs up at night, you know, it's not only the cash flow, you know, it's the mitigated risk that's involved. And when you're looking at your, your data and you're collecting this information that gives you a view into what's really going on so you can sleep at night and have a little bit of comfort mostly, >>well not sleeping at night, it's a couple hours of sleep. The notification when I opened CEO's and CIO's, CFO's, chief data officer, you've seen much more formal roles around data where data is real key asset. And this is awesome because it brings to the forefront the role of data. And so I want to get your perspective on this. You brought into the kind of the, kind of the trajectory of where we've come from, um, and talking about the role of software because really what this highlights here at IBM insight is okay, it's not just data per se, you know, how software that's a key part of it. So it's now also an integral part of the platforms. You have a developer angle, you have the data asset, and now you've got this real time in the moment experience. And IBM is talking about engagement a ton here. And so what's your take on all that? I mean it's, it's exciting. Certainly if you're in the data business. >>Well definitely, I mean, real time data, of course it's very expensive. Um, but it's, it's more attainable now than it ever was. Um, the thing is now is you don't necessarily have to be a data scientist to be able to go and get at your data. I mean, thanks to software tools, you know, like IBM, they give you that benchmark, you know, the, these tools, uh, where you can use BI and things like that. To be able to get a view into your business. And you know, it's not just for, you know, your analytical department anymore. Um, so I think it's what it's done is it's actually made it more attainable now. You know, it was like people looked at data wagon back then, Oh, and it was so scary, you know, but now it's, it's bringing it to the forefront to where we can make decisions. We can want our bitter, our business better. And like I joined forces with a repo software years ago to look at the supply chain. Now when you talk about that, that's what keeps the lights on. But you're only as strong as your weakest link. So when you're working with third parties, you have to make sure that everything is going smoothly. So >>I want to get your take on a couple of things in. He chose SA was on earlier and she's an awesome guest. She's been on many times. She's dynamic and articulate and super smart, brilliant and beautiful. We love talking with her. She said, I asked her what are the top three customer issues? And kind of a double edged question. She said three things, customer experience, operational assets, AKA the supply chain, and then risk security and governance. And then we weaved in context computing and then cognitive. So let's break that down. So customer experience, internet of things is a data play, you know, probes and sensors and machines certainly get that >>analogies. People are things. Yeah, well you know, here's the thing that you think about. Data. Data is a person that record that you have in that database equates to a real live person and you want to, you know, you're not going to be friends with your, your customers, but you want to know more about them so that you can serve them better. Um, you know, for me the biggest thing is, you know, people will go out and spend millions of dollars on a database but not necessarily know what to do with it. So it comes down to what question are you trying to answer? >>Yeah. And the infrastructure piece is interesting because you want to have that agile flexibility, which is kind of a buzz word amongst vendors. Hey, be flexible. But there is meaning behind it. Right. So context computing is relationships across entities. The streaming stuff is very, very interesting to me because now you have streaming data coming off of devices and again brings up the real time piece. So making sense of all this means it puts it in the forefront. >>And what you can do with that data is if you do have a client or a customer and you let them link in socially, like log in through Twitter or LinkedIn or Google, Facebook, now you can append that social data. So now you, you've got an ideal, you know sediment and you know when you're positive you it's first party data. Yeah, exactly. The Holy grail of active data is first party data. Exactly. >>Cause we'd love the crowd chatting and love people. The logging in and, and thanks for, by the way, for hosting the crowd chat with Brian the other day. It was really fantastic conversation. My pleasure. Let's talk about cognitive because this brings a human element of it. And one of the things we've been teasing out of the past couple of shows we've been at around big data is the role of the developer where the developers in the old days from even going back to the mainframe days, cold ball, they were adding in these rooms, almost like almost an image of coders in the back room coding away. But now with the customer experience front and center with mobile infrastructure, the developers are getting closer to the customer experience. And so you're seeing more creativity on the developers side with the use of data. Could you share just observation, anecdotes, things you've been involved in that can tease out where this is going and how people should be thinking about it? >>Oh, do you know 20 years ago if he tried to show someone and graft with, you know, 16 different things at one time going on, they were like, that's messy. Now you can actually find the sweet spot or where everything interacts. So you know, when you're talking to an artist, a digital artist who's working with data and giving that picture, that's exciting for me. And going back when we were talking about cognitive computing, when you're talking about the Watson on ecology, that's exciting. Yeah, that's the highlight of it's almost magic. It's almost like black magic, this Watson stuff and people are really just now getting their arms around that and that is essentially making sense of the data, but that's the thing. See, it's no longer magic now. That's what they thought 20 years ago. Poof. People like me, they kept in a little closet, you know, and then our office and they only came to Moses when they needed something. >>Now we're an integral part and we actually are in the business development meetings and we're a liaison between the it department and the C suite. One of the, one of the things that it's interesting about your role as not only you out in the field doing some great work, you're also an influencer here at the IBM influencer program, so I want to get your take on this balance between organic data and kind of structural data. Organic data means free forming unstructured data and then existing data that comes in that's rigid and structured because of business processes. And I get that is data warehousing business has been around for years, right? It's intelligence, it's all fenced in, all structured. But now you have this new inbound data sources coming in, being ingested by these large systems, data changes the data. So you now have a new dynamic where latency, real time insights, these are the new verbs, right? >>So talk about that role, the balance being organic data and the structure data and what the opportunities are. Well, the wonderful thing about, you know, now that unstructured data was scary way back in the day. So now it's not so scary, you know, now we can actually take this data and make business decisions, but uh, you know, like social data and things like that. When you can add that in a pin that and get to, you know, what we all want is a better view of our customer and to be able to, you know, do better business with them. Like, um, like supply chain management and things like that. I mean you're, you're looking at open people, you know, collecting information from varying sources and this all has to be put together. So I think they mentioned earlier this morning how 80% of it is we're data janitors cleaning up this, that and the other. >>Whereas what we really want to do is, you know, glean the insight from it. But I think, uh, the tools these days are making that much more easier no matter what the source is that we can actually put it all together, what we used to call the merge Burj back in the old days. It takes weeks to do the merge purge and yeah, who all here knows what a DLT is trying to solve this problem for a while with traditional technology 17 years. So let's talk about, you know, the, the promise of BI and the traditional data warehouse 360 degree view of my customer, real time information. And that's what it's about. It's about drilling down predictive analytics, all these promises. Did the data warehouse live up to those promises in your view? Well, initially, maybe not, but you know, things are, it just seems in the last few years that people have had an epiphany of how this is really adding value to their company. >>Now back in the old days, they all knew that, you know, insight is wonderful, but now you can see it visibly showing signs actually making a difference in company so they can keep an eye on everything that's going on. Now, going back to what keeps CFOs, you know, up at night with the risk and stuff, there's still always the risk, but at least now you can get a little better handle on it. And thanks to the age of technology and the data that we have accessible to us today and the tools we have available to us today. It's, it's made a dramatic change. What are the technology catalyst? Is it do? Is it no sequel? Is it, what are the, what are the tools that are sort of the foundation of that change? Well, I think always the, you know, the new tools and making it so that you don't have to go out and learn SQL. >>You don't have to be a programmer, you don't have to, you know, go to college for four years and learn mathematics and engineering to actually be able to work with this data. So thanks to, you know, tools like had it been other tools. I mean you can really sit down and glean insight without having to write one single line of code. So the things we're getting some questions in the crowd chats, um, um, at furry, at data nerd, what are the key things that are messy, scary right now for CEOs and CFOs? So things are becoming less scary. What is the scary things right now? Oh, the scary thing is the breaches. You know, when you hear about target and these big names, you know, people getting access to your, your credit card data. That's, that's scary. So, you know, we've got to really try to lock down that risk, you know, and I know everybody's scrambling scratching their head, figuring out how we're going to keep these breaches from happening again. >>Yeah. Big data solves that. I mean you have big data technology, which is a combination of machine learning, streaming where you're getting massive surges of data coming in to these ingest systems where you can apply some reasoning to it, some cognitive, some insights to look for the patterns and that's where machine learning shines. Um, how do you see that aspect of machine learning and these new tools affecting that kind of analysis? Will I see it opening up a lot of different doors for a lot of different people and making a difference because, uh, you know, everybody knows that data is important, but not a lot of people know how to deal with it, especially when it gets into the zettabytes of data. When you have tools, you know, like the IBM tools that can handle this type of load and be able to, to give you, you know, instantaneous information. >>And, and like what we saw this morning where, uh, like risk, I mean an oil and gas industry, you know, you, you have to worry about, you know, as someone going to get injured on the job and they showed the the center, whereas she walked toward it, it went off. I mean the internet of things, being able to let us know in real time if there's a danger, you know, to personal life or to your database and then predictive to be able to say, well this is what we think is going to happen in the future and to be able to move and act on that. It's a very exciting time. You mentioned IBM, so obviously is a leader in here, >>Jeff Kelly's report shows IBM is the number one big data player. But big part of that is IBM. So big, right? >>Well and you guys were around a long, you've been around a long time. You guys were playing with big data way back before. Big data was big data. So yeah, we guys, us guys, yeah, well social, social data, >>those guys, right? So we're not all right, but so, but, but so you bring up IBM, a lot of people have a perception IBM big, hard to work with, but you're, >>but that's changing. So talk about that change. What I'm excited about is the Watson's analytics. I mean that in itself right there and made me sit up and, you know, get excited about the data world all over again. You know, to be able to excite you about Watson analytics platform? Well, I really like, uh, the, uh, the oncology, uh, Watson, um, they had the, the one for the, uh, not necessarily for the police, but for the, uh, the crimes. I mean, in real time, if you can see that a crime is about to happen and you can prevent it, or if you see someone's health is failing and you're able to step in. And that's why over there, earlier I was talking about IBM cognitive abilities can save lives, you know, so I mean, my, my mom passed away from cancer, so, you know, the, the, um, oncology Watson was very exciting to me, but it's gonna make a difference. And I think the thing is now is that how it's changed is to make them user friendly where you don't have to have a data scientist or an analyst to come in. You know, they talk about how expensive data scientists are. Now the reason I opened my business was to make it affordable to small businesses, you know, so although you know, people look at IBM and think it's scary, I think they're going to see now that the, the direction that they're moving is becoming more user friendly and more available. >>So Carla, I wonder if you could talk about how you engage with clients. So you mentioned small business, right? Cause you have a lot of, a lot of businesses, small midsize companies don't have the resources. Right? Um, so where did they start? Did they start with a call to you and, >>well, uh, most of the time it's a call where, you know, we spent all this money on this database and we still can't get what we want out of it. So it comes down to what question are you trying to answer? I think that's the most important thing because that directly deals with what data that you need. And if you don't have it internally, can we get it externally? You know, can we go through open source, can we get census data? Can we get, you know, work with hospitals and doctors and things like that and use this to be able to feed this information into them to make a difference. >>So what do you do? I mean, are you so CEO calls up small companies, is that got all this data? It's unstructured. I get some social data. I get my customer data trying to make sense out of. I'm trying to figure out, you know, who's >>ready to buy, where I should be, you know, focus my products. Uh, and I got all this, this, this date. I don't know what to do with it, but I know there's some gold in there. I know there's a signal in that data mining, right? So how do I get it? How can you help me? Well, it's gap analysis. First off, I would come in and I would sit down and first of all, I need to see what variables you're collecting. Uh, if you're telling me you you're collecting your name, address and phone number, but you want to do a predictive model, we can't get that. So, um, you know, the question that you want to answer is, is most important? Are you wanting to increase your sales? Are you wanting to get your, to know your customers better, to be able to service them better? >>Like in the healthcare industry, you know, you really want to know what's going on health wise, you know, so, uh, I sat down with them when we do a gap analysis, what are you missing? What do you have? How can we get it? What do you want? Where are you at? Yeah. And here's, here's what you have, here's what you're missing. How do we get at that? And that's oftentimes starts with data sources. Exactly. So then you go get the data sources and then more than what you do, well then we merge it back in. And here's the thing, you have to have that way to connect them. You know, the relational databases will always exist to where you have, you know, client information here and you've got other information over here and you have to always bring that back together. So, um, you know, it's a wonderful time. >>You're a data hacker in a sense, right? Is that fair data nerd in a complimentary way? I mean hacking is about exploration. Yeah, exactly right. So I mean, so you have the skillsets as a data scientist to pull all this data together, analyze it and well, you're going to bring in an external source and then when you bring it externally, you want to make sure that you can match it back up. And now that's the important and without a unique quantify or how do you do that? And that's why when you see databases with all these little arrows and everything pointing to where things belong, I mean we have to be able to pull that in to make decisions. >>Yeah. We were talking with frons yesterday to another influencer. We were talking about this particular point. He was ex P and G back in the day, which is very data-driven. Of course, they're well known for their brand work and certainly on the advertising side, but they're, they're quant jocks over there. They love data. Their data nerds over there, they're kicking out on data. And he used to say that the software would cut off data points that were skewing way outside the median. And so they would essentially throw away what are now exploratory points. So this kind of brings up this long tail distribution concept where, okay, you can get the meat of what you want in the head of the tail and distribution, but out into the long tail is all these skew data points that were once skew standard off the standard deviation that are now doorway. So, you know, we're old enough to know that that movie with Jodie foster with contact where they, they find that little white space, they open it up and there's a, a huge puzzle. That's the kind of things that's happening right now. So exactly >>the same thing. Well, yes, yes. I mean, you know, the thing is, uh, you know, a lot of people don't necessarily have the information that they need. So they're seeking it, you know, when they're going to what Avenue, where, where do I go to get this data? You know, and thanks to open source and things like that. You, you know, we've been able to get more information and bring it together than we've ever been able to do before. And I think people now are more open to analysis where it's not necessarily a dirty word. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to go out and spend $300,000 a year to hire a data scientist. You can sit down, you know, and look at what you have and uh, someone else mentioned that. Take the people that you have that know what's going on with your company. You know, they may not be data scientists, they may not be analytical, but they have insights they have. >>There's more of a cultural issue now around playing with data and an experimental sandbox way where you don't need to have the upfront prove the case. And then pre prefabricated systems you can say, I'm going to do some stuff in jest, for instance, bringing in data sources and play with the data. >>Well, and you mentioned, you know, outliners I mean everything when, when you look graphically at data, you expect everything to fall within this little bubble, this, you know, this thing. But when you see, you know, all these outliners going on for me, usually that means a mistake. Okay. So, and if it's not a mistake, it's something that calls attention. So it's definitely not something you just want to toss aside >>talking about creativity because creativity now becomes, you know, uh, uh, an aspect of the job where you gotta be creative, where it's not just being the math geek or being super analytical and you have to kind of think outside the box or outside the query, if you will, to do the exploration. What's the role of creativity in the new model? >>Well before, I think that we always thought of ourself as just being, you know, matter of fact, you know, just the facts please, you know, but now, you know, you can look at things visually and see, you know, and it is an art form to be able to find that sweet spot in the data. And um, you know, before, you know, years and years and years ago when you would take something like that to a CEO, he would say it was messy, you know, so now you get that creative side where you can actually make things visually attractive. And I think that's important to people too because it's not just data, it's the way you present it. >>It's also the mindset of understanding MSCI is a good start, start with messy and then versus getting the perfect answer. As we were saying, using it with pop-up Jana earlier about, don't try it at the home run right away. Hit a few singles. He's in the baseball metaphor given the world series going on. So totally awesome. Um, but I want to get your final thoughts as we wrap up the segment here on the practitioners out there. What's, what should they do? So there's an approach to the job now, right? So there is a shift and inflection point happening at the same time. What advice would you give to folks out there who say, Oh, I love Carla's interview. I want to do that. I just don't know where to start, what to do. How do I convince management I want to be, I want to get going. What do you, what would you share for advice? >>Well, I'm sure it's the platform. I mean, you know, think about the foundation of a house. Now if you have a strong data foundation, you can build on that. It's just like your house. If you have a weak foundation, your house is going to tumble down. So if you have a strong, you have a strong foundation or with your data and everything is built right now. When I say built right means, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to accomplish? You know, if it's risk, then you need to be, you know, looking at those, those factors. You know, how many people have been hurt? How many of you people been injured? You know, how many people died? You know, I mean, how many breaches do we have? You know, so it starts with the question, what is it that you're trying to accomplish? And then you go from there and collect the right variables. So don't wait, you know, a year later and call a data scientist and going, I've spent, you know, millions of dollars on this. I'm still not getting what I want. So think about an initially in the setup and you know, be involved, involved your analyst, involve your data scientists, make sure that they're in your business meetings because we're the liaisons between it and the Csuite. >>Yeah, and that's the key roles team as a team, that person really is collaborative. We heard from a med earlier pair programming pair, not pay eggs in an accent, pair programming, work in pairs, buddy system. This is really a true team effort. >>Well, I always said, you know, I am a team of data. Scientists can write programs, we can glean insight, but the team part has to come from working with it and working with your C suite. So very much agree. It's definitely a team sport. >>Carla Gentry, owner and data science analytical solutions influencer here at the IBM special presentation and second experience, second screen here in the social media lounge. Really doing a real innovative social business. Again, activated audience, you're an influencer, but also you're really a subject matter expert. Thanks for coming on the cube. Really appreciate and thanks for hosting the crowd. Chat with Brian Fonzo is really good content now. This is the cube. We are live here in Las Vegas. Extracting the ceiling from the noise, getting the data and sharing it with you. I'm John Frey with Dave a lot there. We'll be right back after this short break.

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back everyone. We're so glad that you're still with us. It's the Cube Live at the MGM Grand. This is our second day of coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite. This is takeaways from Ignite 22. Lisa Martin here with two really smart guys, Dave Valante. Dave, we're joined by one of our cube alumni, a friend, a friend of the, we say friend of the Cube. >>Yeah, otc. A friend of the Cube >>Karala joined us. Guys, it's great to have you here. It's been an exciting show. A lot of cybersecurity is one of my favorite topics to talk about. But I'd love to get some of the big takeaways from both of you. Dave, we'll start with you. >>A breathing room from two weeks ago. Yeah, that was, that was really pleasant. You know, I mean, I know was, yes, you sat in the analyst program, interested in what your takeaways were from there. But, you know, coming into this, we wrote a piece, Palo Alto's Gold Standard, what they need to do to, to keep that, that status. And we hear it a lot about consolidation. That's their big theme now, which is timely, right? Cause people wanna save money, they wanna do more with less. But I'm really interested in hearing zeus's thoughts on how that's playing in the market. How customers, how easy is it to just say, oh, hey, I'm gonna consolidate. I wanna get into that a little bit with you, how well the strategy's working. We're gonna get into some of the m and a activity and really bring your perspectives to the table. Well, >>It's, it's not easy. I mean, people have been calling for the consolidation of security for decades, and it's, it's, they're the first company that's actually made it happen. Right? And, and I think this is what we're seeing here is the culmination of this long term strategy, this company trying to build more of a platform. And they, you know, they, they came out as a firewall vendor. And I think it's safe to say they're more than firewall today. That's only about two thirds of their revenue now. So down from 80% a few years ago. And when I think of what Palo Alto has become, they're really a data company. Now, if you look at, you know, unit 42 in Cortex, the, the, the Cortex Data Lake, they've done an excellent job of taking telemetry from their products and from the acquisitions they have, right? And bringing that together into one big data lake. >>And then they're able to use that to, to do faster threat notification, forensics, things like that. And so I think the old model of security of create signatures for known threats, it's safe to say it never really worked and it wasn't ever gonna work. You had too many day zero exploits and things. The only way to fight security today is with a AI and ML based analytics. And they have, they're the gold standard. I think the one thing about your post that I would add the gold standard from a data standpoint, and that's given them this competitive advantage to go out and become a platform for a security. Which, like I said, the people have tried to do that for years. And the first one that's actually done it, well, >>We've heard this from some of the startups, like Lacework will say, oh, we treat security as a data problem. Of course there's a startup, Palo Alto's got, you know, whatever, 10, 15 years of, of, of history. But one of the things I wanted to explore with you coming into this was the notion of can you be best of breed and develop a suite? And we, we've been hearing a consistent answer to that question, which is, and, and do you need to, and the answer is, well, best of breed in security requires that full spectrum, that full view. So here's my question to you. So, okay, let's take Esty win relatively new for these guys, right? Yeah. Okay. And >>And one of the few products are not top two, top three in, right? Exactly. >>Yeah. So that's why I want to take that. Yeah. Because in bakeoffs, they're gonna lose on a head-to-head best of breed. And so the customer's gonna say, Hey, you know, I love your, your consolidation play, your esty win's. Just, okay, how about a little discount on that? And you know, these guys are premium priced. Yes. So, you know, are they in essentially through their pricing strategies, sort of creating that stuff, fighting that, is that friction for them where they've got, you know, the customer says, all right, well forget it, we're gonna go stove pipe with the SD WAN will consolidate some of the stuff. Are you seeing that? >>Yeah, I, I, I still think the sales model is that way. And I think that's something they need to work on changing. If they get into a situation where they have to get down into a feature battle of my SD WAN versus your SD wan, my firewall versus your firewall, frankly they've already lost, you know, because their value prop is the suite and, and is the platform. And I was talking to the CISO here that told me, he realizes now that you don't need best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, best of breed everywhere leads to suboptimal threat protection. Cuz you have all these data data sets that are in silos, right? And so from a data scientist standpoint, right, there's the good data leads to good insights. Well, partial data leads to fragmented insights and that's, that's what the best, best of breed approach gives you. And so I was talking with Palo about this, can they have this vision of being best of breed and platform? I don't really think you can maintain best of breed everywhere across this portfolio this big, but you don't need to. >>That was my second point of my >>Question. That's the point. >>Yeah. And so, cuz cuz because you know, we've talked about this, that that sweets always win in the long run, >>Sweets >>Win. Yeah. But here's the thing, I, I wonder to your your point about, you know, the customer, you know, understanding that that that, that this resonates with them. I, my guess is a lot of customers, you know, at that mid-level and the fat middle are like still sort of wed, you know, hugging that, that tool. So there's, there's work to be done here, but I think they, they, they got it right Because if they devolve, to your point, if they devolve down to that speeds and feeds, eh, what's the point of that? Where's their valuable? >>You do not wanna get into a knife fight. And I, and I, and I think for them the, a big challenge now is convincing customers that the suite, the suite approach does work. And they have to be able to do that in actual customer examples. And so, you know, I I interviewed a bunch of customers here and the ones that have bought into XDR and xor and even are looking at their sim have told me that the, the, so think of soc operations, the old way heavily manually oriented, right? You have multiple panes of glass and you know, and then you've got, so there's a lot of people work before you bring the tools in, right? If done correctly with AI and ml, the machines would do all the heavy lifting and then you'd bring people in at the end to clean up the little bits that were missed, right? >>And so you, you moved to, from something that was very people heavy to something that's machine heavy and machines can work a lot faster than people. And the, and so the ones that I've talked that have, that have done that have said, look, our engineers have moved on to a lot different things. They're doing penetration testing, they're, you know, helping us with, with strategy and they're not fighting that, that daily fight of looking through log files. And the only proof point you need, Dave, is look at every big breach that we've had over the last five years. There's some SIM vendor up there that says, we caught it. Yeah. >>Yeah. We we had the data. >>Yeah. But, but, but the security team missed it. Well they missed it because you're, nobody can look at that much data manually. And so the, I I think their approach of relying heavily on machines to fight the fight is actually the right way. >>Is that a differentiator for them versus, we were talking before we went live that you and I first hit our very first segment back in 2017 at Fort Net. Is that, where do the two stand in your >>Yeah, it's funny cuz if you talk to the two vendors, they don't really see each other in a lot of accounts because Fort Net's more small market mid-market. It's the same strategy to some degree where Fort Net relies heavily on in-house development and Palo Alto relies heavily on acquisition. Yeah. And so I think from a consistently feature set, you know, Fort Net has an advantage there because it, it's all run off their, their their silicon. Where, where Palo's able to innovate very quickly. The, it it requires a lot of work right? To, to bring the front end and back ends together. But they're serving different markets. So >>Do you see that as a differentiator? The integration strategy that Palo Alto has as a differentiator? We talk to so many companies who have an a strong m and a strategy and, and execution arm. But the challenge is always integrating the technology so that the customer to, you know, ultimately it's the customer. >>I actually think they're, they're underrated as a, an acquirer. In fact, Dave wrote a post to a prior on Silicon Angle prior to Accelerate and he, he on, you put it on Twitter and you asked people to rank 'em as an acquirer and they were in the middle of the pack, >>Right? It was, it was. So it was Oracle, VMware, emc, ibm, Cisco, ServiceNow, and Palo Alto. Yeah. Or Oracle got very high marks. It was like 8.5 out of, you know, 10. Yeah. VMware I think was 6.5. Nice. Era was high emc, big range. IBM five to seven. Cisco was three to eight. Yeah. Yeah, right. ServiceNow was a seven. And then, yeah, Palo Alto was like a five. And I, which I think it was unfair. >>Well, and I think it depends on how you look at it. And I, so I think a lot of the acquisitions Palo Altos made, they've done a good job of integrating their backend data and they've almost ignored the front end. And so when you buy some of the products, it's a little clunky today. You know, if you work with Prisma Cloud, it could be a little bit cleaner. And even with, you know, the SD wan that took 'em a long time to bring CloudGenix in and stuff. But I think the approach is right. I don't, I don't necessarily believe you should integrate the front end until you've integrated the back end. >>That's >>The hard part, right? Because UL ultimately what you're gonna get, you're gonna get two panes of glass and one pane of glass and it might look pretty all mush together, but ultimately you're not solving the bigger problem, right. Of, of being able to create that big data like the, the fight security. And so I think, you know, the approach they've taken is the right one. I think from a user standpoint, maybe it doesn't show up as neatly because you don't see the frontend integration, but the way they're doing it is the right way to do it. And I'm glad they're doing it that way versus caving to the pressures of what, you know, the industry might want >>Showed up in the performance of the company. I mean, this company was basically gonna double revenues to 7 billion from 2020 to >>2023. Three. Think about that at that, that >>Make a, that's unbelievable, right? I mean, and then and they wanna double again. Yeah. You know, so, well >>What did, what did Nikesh was quoted as saying they wanna be the first cyber company that's a hundred billion dollars. He didn't give a timeline market cap. >>Right. >>Market cap, right. Do what I wanna get both of your opinions on what you saw and heard and felt this week. What do you think the likelihood is? And and do you have any projections on how, you know, how many years it's gonna take for them to get there? >>Well, >>Well I think so if they're gonna get that big, right? And, and we were talking about this pre-show, any company that's becoming a big company does it through ecosystem >>Bingo. >>Right? And that when you look around the show floor, it's not that impressive. And if that, if there's an area they need to focus on, it's building that ecosystem. And it's not with other security vendors, it's with application vendors and it's with the cloud companies and stuff. And they've got some relationships there, but they need to do more. I actually challenge 'em on that. One of the analyst sessions. They said, look, we've got 800 cortex partners. Well where are they? Right? Why isn't there a cortex stand here with a bunch of the small companies here? So I do think that that is an area they need to focus on. If they are gonna get to that, that market caps number, they will do so do so through ecosystem. Because every company that's achieved that has done it through ecosystem. >>A hundred percent agree. And you know, if you look at CrowdStrike's ecosystem, it's pretty similar. Yeah. You know, it doesn't really, you know, make much, much, not much different from this, but I went back and just looked at some, you know, peak valuations during the pandemic and shortly thereafter CrowdStrike was 70 billion. You know, that's what their roughly their peak Palo Alto was 56, fortune was 59 for the actually diverged. Right. And now Palo Alto has taken the, the top mantle, you know, today it's market cap's 52. So it's held 93% of its peak value. Everybody else is tanking. Even Okta was 45 billion. It's been crushed as you well know. But, so Palo Alto wasn't always, you know, the number one in terms of market cap. But I guess my point is, look, if CrowdStrike could got to 70 billion during Yeah. During the frenzy, I think it's gonna take, to answer your question, I think it's gonna be five years. Okay. Before they get back there. I think this market's gonna be tough for a while from a valuation standpoint. I think generally tech is gonna kind of go up and down and sideways for a good year and a half, maybe even two years could be even longer. And then I think there's gonna be some next wave of productivity innovation that that hits. And then you're gonna, you're almost always gonna exceed the previous highs. It's gonna take a while. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. But I think their ability to disrupt the SIM market actually is something I, I believe they're gonna do. I've been calling for the death of the sim for a long time and I know some people at Palo Alto are very cautious about saying that cuz the Splunks and the, you know, they're, they're their partners. But I, I think the, you know, it's what I said before, the, the tools are catching them, but they're, it's not in a way that's useful for the IT pro and, but I, I don't think the SIM vendors have that ecosystem of insight across network cloud endpoint. Right. Which is what you need in order to make a sim useful. >>CISO at an ETR roundtable said, if, if it weren't for my regulators, I would chuck my sim. >>Yes. >>But that's the only reason that, that this person was keeping it. So, >>Yeah. And I think the, the fact that most of those companies have moved to a perpetual MO or a a recurring revenue model actually helps unseat them. Typically when you pour a bunch of money into something, you remember the old computer associate days, nobody ever took it out cuz the sunk dollars you spent to do it. But now that you're paying an annual recurring fee, it's actually makes it easier to take out. So >>Yeah, it's it's an ebb and flow, right? Yeah. Because the maintenance costs were, you know, relatively low. Maybe it was 20% of the total. And then, you know, once every five years you had to do a refresh and you were still locked into the sort of maintenance and, and so yeah, I think you're right. The switching costs with sas, you know, in theory anyway, should be less >>Yeah. As long as you can migrate the data over. And I think they've got a pretty good handle on that. So, >>Yeah. So guys, I wanna get your perspective as a whole bunch of announcements here. We've only been here for a couple days, not a big conference as, as you can see from behind us. What Zs in your opinion was Palo Alto's main message and and what do you think about it main message at this event? And then same question for you. >>Yeah, I, I think their message largely wrapped around disruption, right? And, and they, in The's keynote already talked about that, right? And where they disrupted the firewall market by creating a NextGen firewall. In fact, if you look at all the new services they added to their firewall, you, you could almost say it's a NextGen NextGen firewall. But, but I do think the, the work they've done in the area of cloud and cortex actually I think is, is pretty impressive. And I think that's the, the SOC is ripe for disruption because it's for, for the most part, most socks still, you know, run off legacy playbooks. They run off legacy, you know, forensic models and things and they don't work. It's why we have so many breaches today. The, the dirty little secret that nobody ever wants to talk about is the bad guys are using machine learning, right? And so if you're using a signature based model, all they're do is tweak their model a little bit and it becomes, it bypasses them. So I, I think the only way to fight the the bad guys today is with you gotta fight fire with fire. And I think that's, that's the path they've, they've headed >>Down and the bad guys are hiding in plain sight, you know? >>Yeah, yeah. Well it's, it's not hard to do now with a lot of those legacy tools. So >>I think, I think for me, you know, the stat that we threw out earlier, I think yesterday at our keynote analysis was, you know, the ETR data shows that are, that are that last survey around 35% of the respondents said we are actively consolidating, sorry, 44%, sorry, 35 says we're actively consolidating vendors, redundant vendors today. That number's up to 44%. Yeah. It's by far the number one cost optimization technique. That's what these guys are pitching. And I think it's gonna resonate with people and, and I think to your point, they're integrating at the backend, their beeps are technical, right? I mean, they can deal with that complexity. Yeah. And so they don't need eye candy. Eventually they, they, they want to have that cuz it'll allow 'em to have deeper market penetration and make people more productive. But you know, that consolidation message came through loud and clear. >>Yeah. The big change in this industry too is all the new startups are all cloud native, right? They're all built on Amazon or Google or whatever. Yeah. And when your cloud native and you buy a cloud native integration is fast. It's not like having to integrate this big monolithic software stack anymore. Right. So I I think their pace of integration will only accelerate from here because everything's now cloud native. >>If a customer comes to you or when a customer comes to you and says, Zs help us with this cyber transformation we have, our board isn't necessarily with our executives in terms of execution of a security strategy. How do you advise them where Palo Alto is concerned? >>Yeah. You know, a lot, a lot of this is just fighting legacy mindset. And I've, I was talking with some CISOs here from state and local governments and things and they're, you know, they can't get more budget. They're fighting the tide. But what they did find is through the use of automation technology, they're able to bring their people costs way down. Right. And then be able to use that budget to invest in a lot of new projects. And so with that, you, you have to start with your biggest pain points, apply automation where you can, and then be able to use that budget to reinvest back in your security strategy. And it's good for the IT pros too, the security pros, my advice to, to it pros is if you're doing things today that aren't resume building, stop doing them. Right? Find a way to automate the money your job. And so if you're patching systems and you're looking through log files, there's no reason machines can't do that. And you go do something a lot more interesting. >>So true. It's like storage guys 10 years ago, provisioning loans. Yes. It's like, stop doing that. Yeah. You're gonna be outta a job. And so who, last question I have is, is who do you see as the big competitors, the horses on the track question, right? So obviously Cisco kind of service has led for a while and you know, big portfolio company, CrowdStrike coming at it from end point. You know who, who, who do you see as the real players going for that? You know, right now the market's three to 4%. The leader has three, three 4% of the market. You know who they're all going for? 10, 15, maybe 20% of the market. Who, who are the likely candidates? Yeah, >>I don't know if CrowdStrike really has the breadth of portfolio to compete long term though. I I think they've had a nice run, but I, we might start to see the follow 'em. I think Microsoft is gonna be for middle. They've laid down the gauntlet, right? They are a security vendor, right? We, we were at Reinvent and a AWS is the platform for security vendors. Yes. Middle, somewhere in the middle. But Microsoft make no mistake, they're in security. They've got some good products. I think a lot of 'em are kind of good enough and they, they tie it to the licensing and I'm not sure that works in security, but they've certainly got the ear of a lot of it pros. >>It might work in smb. >>Yeah. Yeah. It, it might. And, and I do like Zscaler. I, I know these guys poo poo the proxy model, but they've, they've done about as much with proxies as you can. And I, I think it's, it's a battle of, I love the, the, the near, you know, proxies are dead and Jay's model, you know, Jay over at c skater throw 'em back at 'em. So I, it's good to see that kind of fight going on between the two. >>Oh, it's great. Well, and, and again, ZScaler's coming at it from their cloud security angle. CrowdStrike's coming at it from endpoint. I, I do think CrowdStrike has an opportunity to build out the portfolio through m and a and maybe ecosystem. And then obviously, you know, Palo Alto's getting it done. How about Cisco? >>Yeah. Cisco's interesting. And I, I think if Cisco can make the network matter in security and it should, right? We're talking about how a lot of you need a lot of forensics to fight security today. Well, they're gonna see things long before anybody else because they have all that network data. If they can tie network security, I, I mean they could really have that business take off. But we've been saying that about Cisco for 20 years. >>But big install based though. Yeah. It's hard for a company, any company to just say, okay, hey Cisco customer sweep the floor and come with us. That's, that's >>A tough thing. They have a lot of good peace parts, right? And like duo's a good product and umbrella's a good product. They've, they've not done a good job. >>They're the opposite of these guys. >>They've not done a good job of the backend integration that, that's where Cisco needs to, to focus. And I do think g G two Patel there fixed the WebEx group and I think he's now, in fact when you talk to him, he's doing very little on WebEx that that group's running itself and he's more focused in security. So I, I think we could see a resurgence there. But you know, they have a, from a revenue perspective, it's a little misleading cuz they have this big legacy base that's in decline while they're moving to cloud and stuff. So, but they, but they, there's a lot of work there're trying to, to tie to network. >>Right. Lots of fuel for conversation. We're gonna have to carry this on, on Silicon angle.com guys. Yes. And Wikibon, lets do see us. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me giving us your insights as to this event. Where are you gonna be next? Are you gonna be on vacation? >>There's nothing more fun than mean on the cube, so, right. What's outside of that though? Yeah, you know, Christmas coming up, I gotta go see family and do the obligatory, although for me that's a lot of travel, so I guess >>More planes. Yeah. >>Hopefully not in Vegas. >>Not in Vegas. >>Awesome. Nothing against Vegas. Yeah, no, >>We love it. We >>Love it. Although I will say my year started off with ces. Yeah. And it's finishing up with Palo Alto here. The bookends. Yeah, exactly. In Vegas bookends. >>Well thanks so much for joining us. Thank you Dave. Always a pleasure to host a show with you and hear your insights. Reading your breaking analysis always kicks off my prep for show and it's always great to see, but predictions come true. So thank you for being my co-host bet. All right. For Dave Valante Enz as Carla, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back everyone. We're so glad that you're still with us. It's the Cube Live at the MGM Grand. This is our second day of coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite. This is takeaways from Ignite 22. Lisa Martin here with two really smart guys, Dave Valante. Dave, we're joined by one of our cube alumni, a friend, a friend of the, we say friend of the Cube. >>Yeah, F otc. A friend of the Cube >>Karala joins us. Guys, it's great to have you here. It's been an exciting show. A lot of cybersecurity is one of my favorite topics to talk about. But I'd love to get some of the big takeaways from both of you. Dave, we'll start with >>You. A breathing room from two weeks ago. Yeah, that was, that was really pleasant. You know, I mean, I know was, yes, you sat in the analyst program, interested in what your takeaways were from there. But, you know, coming into this, we wrote a piece, Palo Alto's Gold Standard, what they need to do to, to keep that, that status. And we hear it a lot about consolidation. That's their big theme now, which is timely, right? Cause people wanna save money, they wanna do more with less. But I'm really interested in hearing zeus's thoughts on how that's playing in the market. How customers, how easy is it to just say, oh, hey, I'm gonna consolidate. I wanna get into that a little bit with you, how well the strategy's working. We're gonna get into some of the m and a activity and really bring your perspectives to the table. Well, >>It's, it's not easy. I mean, people have been calling for the consolidation of security for decades, and it's, it's, they're the first company that's actually made it happen. Right? And, and I think this is what we're seeing here is the culmination of this long-term strategy, this company trying to build more of a platform. And they, you know, they, they came out as a firewall vendor. And I think it's safe to say they're more than firewall today. That's only about two thirds of their revenue now. So down from 80% a few years ago. And when I think of what Palo Alto has become, they're really a data company. Now, if you look at, you know, unit 42 in Cortex, the, the, the Cortex Data Lake, they've done an excellent job of taking telemetry from their products and from the acquisitions they have, right? And bringing that together into one big data lake. >>And then they're able to use that to, to do faster threat notification, forensics, things like that. And so I think the old model of security of create signatures for known threats, it's safe to say it never really worked and it wasn't ever gonna work. You had too many days, zero exploits and things. The only way to fight security today is with a AI and ML based analytics. And they have, they're the gold standard. I think the one thing about your post that I would add, they're the gold standard from a data standpoint. And that's given them this competitive advantage to go out and become a platform for security. Which, like I said, the people have tried to do that for years. And the first one that's actually done it, well, >>We've heard this from some of the startups, like Lacework will say, oh, we treat security as a data problem. Of course there's a startup, Palo Alto's got, you know, whatever, 10, 15 years of, of, of history. But one of the things I wanted to explore with you coming into this was the notion of can you be best of breed and develop a suite? And we, we've been hearing a consistent answer to that question, which is, and, and do you need to, and the answer is, well, best of breed in security requires that full spectrum, that full view. So here's my question to you. So, okay, let's take Estee win relatively new for these guys, right? Yeah. Okay. And >>And one of the few products are not top two, top three in, right? >>Exactly. Yeah. So that's why I want to take that. Yeah. Because in bakeoffs, they're gonna lose on a head-to-head best of breed. And so the customer's gonna say, Hey, you know, I love your, your consolidation play, your esty win's. Just, okay, how about a little discount on that? And you know, these guys are premium priced. Yes. So, you know, are they in essentially through their pricing strategies, sort of creating that stuff, fighting that, is that friction for them where they've got, you know, the customer says, all right, well forget it, we're gonna go stove pipe with the SD WAN will consolidate some of the stuff. Are you seeing that? >>Yeah, I, I, I still think the sales model is that way. And I think that's something they need to work on changing. If they get into a situation where they have to get down into a feature battle of my SD WAN versus your SD wan, my firewall versus your firewall, frankly they've already lost, you know, because their value prop is the suite and, and is the platform. And I was talking with the CISO here that told me, he realizes now that you don't need best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, best of breed everywhere leads to suboptimal threat protection. Cuz you have all these data data sets that are in silos, right? And so from a data scientist standpoint, right, there's the good data leads to good insights. Well, partial data leads to fragmented insights and that's, that's what the best, best of breed approach gives you. And so I was talking with Palo about this, can they have this vision of being best of breed and platform? I don't really think you can maintain best of breed everywhere across this portfolio this big, but you don't need to. >>That was my second point of my question. That's the point I'm saying. Yeah. And so, cuz cuz because you know, we've talked about this, that that sweets always win in the long run, >>Sweets win. >>Yeah. But here's the thing, I, I wonder to your your point about, you know, the customer, you know, understanding that that that, that this resonates with them. I, my guess is a lot of customers, you know, at that mid-level and the fat middle are like still sort of wed, you know, hugging that, that tool. So there's, there's work to be done here, but I think they, they, they got it right Because if they devolve, to your point, if they devolve down to that speeds and feeds, eh, what's the point of that? Where's their >>Valuable? You do not wanna get into a knife fight. And I, and I, and I think for them the, a big challenge now is convincing customers that the suite, the suite approach does work. And they have to be able to do that in actual customer examples. And so, you know, I I interviewed a bunch of customers here and the ones that have bought into XDR and xor and even are looking at their sim have told me that the, the, so think of soc operations, the old way heavily manually oriented, right? You have multiple panes of glass and you know, and then you've got, so there's a lot of people work before you bring the tools in, right? If done correctly with AI and ml, the machines would do all the heavy lifting and then you'd bring people in at the end to clean up the little bits that were missed, right? >>And so you, you moved to, from something that was very people heavy to something that's machine heavy and machines can work a lot faster than people. And the, and so the ones that I've talked that have, that have done that have said, look, our engineers have moved on to a lot different things. They're doing penetration testing, they're, you know, helping us with, with strategy and they're not fighting that, that daily fight of looking through log files. And the only proof point you need, Dave, is look at every big breach that we've had over the last five years. There's some SIM vendor up there that says, we caught it. Yeah. >>Yeah. We we had the data. >>Yeah. But, but, but the security team missed it. Well they missed it because you're, nobody can look at that much data manually. And so the, I I think their approach of relying heavily on machines to fight the fight is actually the right way. >>Is that a differentiator for them versus, we were talking before we went live that you and I first hit our very first segment back in 2017 at Fort Net. Is that, where do the two stand in your >>Yeah, it's funny cuz if you talk to the two vendors, they don't really see each other in a lot of accounts because Fort Net's more small market mid-market. It's the same strategy to some degree where Fort Net relies heavily on in-house development in Palo Alto relies heavily on acquisition. Yeah. And so I think from a consistently feature set, you know, Fort Net has an advantage there because it, it's all run off their, their their silicon. Where, where Palo's able to innovate very quickly. The, it it requires a lot of work right? To, to bring the front end and back ends together. But they're serving different markets. So >>Do you see that as a differentiator? The integration strategy that Palo Alto has as a differentiator? We talk to so many companies who have an a strong m and a strategy and, and execution arm. But the challenge is always integrating the technology so that the customer to, you know, ultimately it's the customer. >>I actually think they're, they're underrated as a, an acquirer. In fact, Dave wrote a post to a prior on Silicon Angle prior to Accelerate and he, he on, you put it on Twitter and you asked people to rank 'em as an acquirer and they were in the middle of the pack, >>Right? It was, it was. So it was Oracle, VMware, emc, ibm, Cisco, ServiceNow, and Palo Alto. Yeah. Or Oracle got very high marks. It was like 8.5 out of, you know, 10. Yeah. VMware I think was 6.5. Naira was high emc, big range. IBM five to seven. Cisco was three to eight. Yeah. Yeah, right. ServiceNow was a seven. And then, yeah, Palo Alto was like a five. And I, which I think it was unfair. Well, >>And I think it depends on how you look at it. And I, so I think a lot of the acquisitions Palo Alto's made, they've done a good job of integrating the backend data and they've almost ignored the front end. And so when you buy some of the products, it's a little clunky today. You know, if you work with Prisma Cloud, it could be a little bit cleaner. And even with, you know, the SD wan that took 'em a long time to bring CloudGenix in and stuff. But I think the approach is right. I don't, I don't necessarily believe you should integrate the front end until you've integrated the back end. >>That's >>The hard part, right? Because UL ultimately what you're gonna get, you're gonna get two panes of glass and one pane of glass and it might look pretty and all mush together, but ultimately you're not solving the bigger problem, right. Of, of being able to create that big data lake to, to fight security. And so I think, you know, the approach they've taken is the right one. I think from a user standpoint, maybe it doesn't show up as neatly because you don't see the frontend integration, but the way they're doing it is the right way to do it. And I'm glad they're doing it that way versus caving to the pressures of what, you know, the industry might want or >>Showed up in the performance of the company. I mean, this company was basically gonna double revenues to 7 billion from 2020 to >>2023. Think about that at that. That makes, >>I mean that's unbelievable, right? I mean, and then and they wanna double again. Yeah. You know, so, well >>What did, what did Nikesh was quoted as saying they wanna be the first cyber company that's a hundred billion dollars. He didn't give a timeline market >>Cap. Right. >>Market cap, right. Do what I wanna get both of your opinions on what you saw and heard and felt this week. What do you think the likelihood is? And and do you have any projections on how, you know, how many years it's gonna take for them to get there? >>Well, >>Well I think so if they're gonna get that big, right? And, and we were talking about this pre-show, any company that's becoming a big company does it through ecosystem >>Bingo >>Go, right? And that when you look around the show floor, it's not that impressive. No. And if that, if there's an area they need to focus on, it's building that ecosystem. And it's not with other security vendors, it's with application vendors and it's with the cloud companies and stuff. And they've got some relationships there, but they need to do more. I actually challenge 'em on that. One of the analyst sessions. They said, look, we've got 800 cortex partners. Well where are they? Right? Why isn't there a cortex stand here with a bunch of the small companies here? So I do think that that is an area they need to focus on. If they are gonna get to that, that market caps number, they will do so do so through ecosystem. Because every company that's achieved that has done it through ecosystem. >>A hundred percent agree. And you know, if you look at CrowdStrike's ecosystem, it's, I mean, pretty similar. Yeah. You know, it doesn't really, you know, make much, much, not much different from this, but I went back and just looked at some, you know, peak valuations during the pandemic and shortly thereafter CrowdStrike was 70 billion. You know, that's what their roughly their peak Palo Alto was 56, fortune was 59 for the actually diverged. Right. And now Palo Alto has taken the, the top mantle, you know, today it's market cap's 52. So it's held 93% of its peak value. Everybody else is tanking. Even Okta was 45 billion. It's been crushed as you well know. But, so Palo Alto wasn't always, you know, the number one in terms of market cap. But I guess my point is, look, if CrowdStrike could got to 70 billion during Yeah. During the frenzy, I think it's gonna take, to answer your question, I think it's gonna be five years. Okay. Before they get back there. I think this market's gonna be tough for a while from a valuation standpoint. I think generally tech is gonna kind of go up and down and sideways for a good year and a half, maybe even two years could be even longer. And then I think there's gonna be some next wave of productivity innovation that that hits. And then you're gonna, you're almost always gonna exceed the previous highs. It's gonna take a while. Yeah. >>Yeah, yeah. But I think their ability to disrupt the SIM market actually is something that I, I believe they're gonna do. I've been calling for the death of the sim for a long time and I know some people of Palo Alto are very cautious about saying that cuz the Splunks and the, you know, they're, they're their partners. But I, I think the, you know, it's what I said before, the, the tools are catching them, but they're, it's not in a way that's useful for the IT pro and, but I, I don't think the SIM vendors have that ecosystem of insight across network cloud endpoint. Right. Which is what you need in order to make a sim useful. >>CISO at an ETR round table said, if, if it weren't for my regulators, I would chuck my sim. >>Yes. >>But that's the only reason that, that this person was keeping it. No. >>Yeah. And I think the, the fact that most of those companies have moved to a perpetual MO or a a recurring revenue model actually helps unseat them. Typically when you pour a bunch of money into something, you remember the old computer associate says nobody ever took it out cuz the sunk dollars you spent to do it. But now that you're paying an annual recurring fee, it's actually makes it easier to take out. So >>Yeah, it's just an ebb and flow, right? Yeah. Because the maintenance costs were, you know, relatively low. Maybe it was 20% of the total. And then, you know, once every five years you had to do a refresh and you were still locked into the sort of maintenance and, and so yeah, I think you're right. The switching costs with sas, you know, in theory anyway, should be less >>Yeah. As long as you can migrate the data over. And I think they've got a pretty good handle on that. So, >>Yeah. So guys, I wanna get your perspective as a whole bunch of announcements here. We've only been here for a couple days, not a big conference as, as you can see from behind us. What Zs in your opinion was Palo Alto's main message and and what do you think about it main message at this event? And then same question for you. >>Yeah, I, I think their message largely wrapped around disruption, right? And, and they, and The's keynote already talked about that, right? And where they disrupted the firewall market by creating a NextGen firewall. In fact, if you look at all the new services they added to their firewall, you, you could almost say it's a NextGen NextGen firewall. But, but I do think the, the work they've done in the area of cloud and cortex actually I think is, is pretty impressive. And I think that's the, the SOC is ripe for disruption because it's for, for the most part, most socks still, you know, run off legacy playbooks. They run off legacy, you know, forensic models and things and they don't work. It's why we have so many breaches today. The, the dirty little secret that nobody ever wants to talk about is the bad guys are using machine learning, right? And so if you're using a signature based model, all they gotta do is tweak their model a little bit and it becomes, it bypasses them. So I, I think the only way to fight the the bad guys today is with you're gonna fight fire with fire. And I think that's, that's the path they've, they've headed >>Down. Yeah. The bad guys are hiding in plain sight, you know? Yeah, >>Yeah. Well it's, it's not hard to do now with a lot of those legacy tools. So >>I think, I think for me, you know, the stat that we threw out earlier, I think yesterday at our keynote analysis was, you know, the ETR data shows that are, that are that last survey around 35% of the respondents said we are actively consolidating, sorry, 44%, sorry, 35 says who are actively consolidating vendors, redundant vendors today that number's up to 44%. Yeah. It's by far the number one cost optimization technique. That's what these guys are pitching. And I think it's gonna resonate with people and, and I think to your point, they're integrating at the backend, their beeps are technical, right? I mean, they can deal with that complexity. Yeah. And so they don't need eye candy. Eventually they, they, they want to have that cuz it'll allow 'em to have deeper market penetration and make people more productive. But you know, that consolidation message came through loud and clear. >>Yeah. The big change in this industry too is all the new startups are all cloud native, right? They're all built on Amazon or Google or whatever. Yeah. And when your cloud native and you buy a cloud native integration is fast. It's not like having to integrate this big monolithic software stack anymore. Right. So I, I think their pace of integration will only accelerate from here because everything's now cloud native. >>If a customer comes to you or when a customer comes to you and says, Zs help us with this cyber transformation we have, our board isn't necessarily aligned with our executives in terms of execution of a security strategy. How do you advise them where Palo Alto is concerned? >>Yeah. You know, a lot, a lot of this is just fighting legacy mindset. And I've, I was talking with some CISOs here from state and local governments and things and they're, you know, they can't get more budget. They're fighting the tide. But what they did find is through the use of automation technology, they're able to bring their people costs way down. Right. And then be able to use that budget to invest in a lot of new projects. And so with that, you, you have to start with your biggest pain points, apply automation where you can, and then be able to use that budget to reinvest back in your security strategy. And it's good for the IT pros too, the security pros, my advice to the IT pros is, is if you're doing things today that aren't resume building, stop doing them. Right. Find a way to automate the money your job. And so if you're patching systems and you're looking through log files, there's no reason machines can't do that. And you go do something a lot more interesting. >>So true. It's like storage guys 10 years ago, provisioning loans. Yes. It's like, stop doing that. Yeah. You're gonna be outta a job. So who, last question I have is, is who do you see as the big competitors, the horses on the track question, right? So obviously Cisco kind of service has led for a while and you know, big portfolio company, CrowdStrike coming at it from end point. You know who, who, who do you see as the real players going for that? You know, right now the market's three to 4%. The leader has three, three 4% of the market. You know who they're all going for? 10, 15, maybe 20% of the market. Who, who are the likely candidates? Yeah, >>I don't know if CrowdStrike really has the breadth of portfolio to compete long term though. I I think they've had a nice run, but I, we might start to see the follow 'em. I think Microsoft is gonna be for middle. They've laid down the gauntlet, right? They are a security vendor, right? We, we were at Reinvent and a AWS is the platform for security vendors. Yes. Middle, somewhere in the middle. But Microsoft make no mistake, they're in security. They've got some good products. I think a lot of 'em are kind of good enough and they, they tie it to the licensing and I'm not sure that works in security, but they've certainly got the ear of a lot of it pros. >>It might work in smb. >>Yeah, yeah. It, it might. And, and I do like Zscaler. I, I know these guys poo poo the proxy model, but they've, they've done about as much with prox as you can. And I, I think it's, it's a battle of, I love the, the, the near, you know, proxies are dead and Jay's model, you know, Jay over at csca, throw 'em back at 'em. So I, it's good to see that kind of fight going on between the >>Two. Oh, it's great. Well, and, and again, ZScaler's coming at it from their cloud security angle. CrowdStrike's coming at it from endpoint. I, I do think CrowdStrike has an opportunity to build out the portfolio through m and a and maybe ecosystem. And then obviously, you know, Palo Alto's getting it done. How about Cisco? >>Yeah, Cisco's interesting. And I I think if Cisco can make the network matter in security and it should, right? We're talking about how a lot of you need a lot of forensics to fight security today. Well, they're gonna see things long before anybody else because they have all that network data. If they can tie network security, I, I mean they could really have that business take off. But we've been saying that about Cisco for 20 years. >>But big install based though. Yeah. It's hard for a company, any company to say, okay, hey Cisco customer sweep the floor and come with us. That's, that's >>A tough thing. They have a lot of good peace parts, right? And like duo's a good product and umbrella's a good product. They've, they've not done a good job. >>They're the opposite of these guys. >>They've not done a good job of the backend integration and that, that's where Cisco needs to, to focus. And I do think g G two Patel there fixed the WebEx group and I think he's now, in fact when you talk to him, he's doing very little on WebEx that that group's running itself and he's more focused in security. So I, I think we could see a resurgence there. But you know, they have a, from a revenue perspective, it's a little misleading cuz they have this big legacy base that's in decline while they're moving to cloud and stuff. So, but they, but they, there's a lot of Rick there trying to, to tie to network. >>Lots of fuel for conversation. We're gonna have to carry this on, on Silicon angle.com guys. Yes. And Wi KeePon. Lets do see us. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me giving us your insights as to this event. Where are gonna be next? Are you gonna be on >>Vacation? There's nothing more fun than mean on the cube. So what's outside of that though? Yeah, you know, Christmas coming up, I gotta go see family and be the obligatory, although for me that's a lot of travel, so I guess >>More planes. Yeah. >>Hopefully not in Vegas. >>Not in Vegas. >>Awesome. Nothing against Vegas. Yeah, no, >>We love it. We love >>It. Although I will say my year started off with ces. Yeah. And it's finishing up with Palo Alto here. The bookends. Yeah, exactly. In Vegas bookends. >>Well thanks so much for joining us. Thank you Dave. Always a pleasure to host a show with you and hear your insights. Reading your breaking analysis always kicks off my prep for show. And it, it's always great to see, but predictions come true. So thank you for being my co-host bet. All right. For Dave Valante Enz as Carla, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

>>Hey, welcome to the live panel. My name is Brett. I am your host, and indeed we are live. In fact, if you're curious about that, if you don't believe us, um, let's just show a little bit of the browser real quick to see. Yup. There you go. We're live. So, all right. So how this is going to work is I'm going to bring in some guests and, uh, in one second, and we're going to basically take your questions on the topic designer of the day, that continuous integration testing. Uh, thank you so much to my guests welcoming into the panel. I've got Carlos, Nico and Mandy. Hello everyone. >>Hello? All right, >>Let's go. Let's go around the room and all pretend we don't know each other and that the internet didn't read below the video who we are. Uh, hi, my name is Brett. I am a Docker captain, which means I'm supposed to know something about Docker. I'm coming from Virginia Beach. I'm streaming here from Virginia Beach, Virginia, and, uh, I make videos on the internet and courses on you to me, Carlos. Hey, >>Hey, what's up? I'm Carlos Nunez. I am a solutions architect, VMware. I do solution things with computers. It's fun. I live in Dallas when I'm moving to Houston in a month, which is where I'm currently streaming. I've been all over the Northeast this whole week. So, um, it's been fun and I'm excited to meet with all of you and talk about CIA and Docker. Sure. >>Yeah. Hey everyone. Uh, Nico, Khobar here. I'm a solution engineer at HashiCorp. Uh, I am streaming to you from, uh, the beautiful Austin, Texas. Uh, ignore, ignore the golden gate bridge here. This is from my old apartment in San Francisco. Uh, just, uh, you know, keeping that, to remember all the good days, um, that that lived at. But, uh, anyway, I work at Patrick Corp and I work on all things, automation, um, and cloud and dev ops. Um, and I'm excited to be here and Mandy, >>Hi. Yeah, Mandy Hubbard. I am streaming from Austin, Texas. I am, uh, currently a DX engineer at ship engine. Um, I've worked in QA and that's kind of where I got my, uh, my Docker experience and, um, uh, moving into DX to try and help developers better understand and use our products and be an advocate for them. >>Nice. Well, thank you all for joining me. Uh, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here. And so for those of you in chat, the reason we're doing this live, because it's always harder to do things live. The reason we're here is to answer a question. So we didn't come with a bunch of slides and demos or anything like that. We're here to talk amongst ourselves about ideas and really here for you. So we've, we obviously, this is about easy CII, so we're, we're going to try to keep the conversation around testing and continuous integration and all the things that that entails with containers. But we may, we may go down rabbit holes. We may go veer off and start talking about other things, and that's totally fine if it's in the realm of dev ops and containers and developer and ops workflows, like, Hey, it's, it's kinda game. >>And, uh, these people have a wide variety of expertise. They haven't done just testing, right? We, we live in a world where you all kind of have to wear many hats. So feel free to, um, ask what you think is on the top of your mind. And we'll do our best to answer. It may, might not be the best answer or the correct answer, but we're going to do our best. Um, well, let's get it start off. Uh, let's, let's get a couple of topics to start off with. Uh, th the, the easy CGI was my, one of my three ideas. Cause he's the, one of the things that I'm most excited about is the innovation we're seeing around easier testing, faster testing, automated testing, uh, because as much as we've all been doing this stuff for, you know, 15 years, since 20 years since the sort of Jenkins early days, um, it it's, it seems like it's still really hard and it's still a lot of work. >>So, um, let's go around the room real quick, and everybody can just kind of talk for a minute about like your experience with testing and maybe some of your pain points, like what you don't like about our testing world. Um, and we can talk about some pains, cause I think that will lead us to kind of talk about what, what are the things we're seeing now that might be better, uh, ideas about how to do this. I know for me, uh, testing, obviously there's the code part, but just getting it automated, but mostly getting it in the hands of developers so that they can control their own testing. And don't have to go talk to a person to run that test again, or the mysterious Jenkins platform somewhere. I keep mentioning Jenkins cause it's, it is still the dominant player out there. Um, so for me, I'm, I'm, I, I don't like it when I'm walking into a room and there's, there's only one or two people that know how the testing works or know how to make the new tests go into the testing platform and stuff like that. So I'm always trying to free those things so that any of the developers are enabled and empowered to do that stuff. So someone else, Carlos, anybody, um, >>Oh, I have a lot of opinions on that. Having been a QA engineer for most of my career. Um, the shift that we're saying is everyone is dev ops and everyone is QA. Th the issue I see is no one asked developers if they wanted to be QA. Um, and so being the former QA on the team, when there's a problem, even though I'm a developer and we're all running QA, they always tend to come to the one of the former QA engineers. And they're not really owning that responsibility and, um, and digging in. So that's kind of what I'm saying is that we're all expected to test now. And some people, well, some people don't know how it's, uh, for me it was kind of an intuitive skill. It just kind of fit with my personality, but not knowing what to look for, not knowing what to automate, not even understanding how your API end points are used by your front end to know what to test when a change is made. It's really overwhelming for developers. And, um, we're going to need to streamline that and, and hold their hands a little bit until they get their feet wet with also being QA. >>Right. Right. So, um, uh, Carlos, >>Yeah, uh, testing is like, Tesla is one of my favorite subjects to talk about when I'm baring with developers. And a lot of it is because of what Mandy said, right? Like a lot of developers now who used to write a test and say, Hey, QA, go. Um, I wrote my unit tests. Now write the rest of the test. Essentially. Now developers are expected to be able to understand how testing, uh, testing methodologies work, um, in their local environments, right? Like they're supposed to understand how to write an integration tasks federate into and tasks, a component test. And of course, how to write unit tests that aren't just, you know, assert true is true, right? Like more comprehensive, more comprehensive, um, more high touch unit tests, which include things like mocking and stubbing and spine and all that stuff. And, you know, it's not so much getting those tests. Well, I've had a lot of challenges with developers getting those tests to run in Docker because of usually because of dependency hell, but, um, getting developers to understand how to write tests that matter and mean something. Um, it's, it's, it can be difficult, but it's also where I find a lot of the enjoyment of my work comes into play. So yeah. I mean, that's the difficulty I've seen around testing. Um, big subject though. Lots to talk about there. >>Yeah. We've got, we've already got so many questions coming in. You already got an hour's worth of stuff. So, uh, Nico 81st thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I think I definitely agree with, with other folks here on the panel, I think from a, um, the shift from a skillset perspective that's needed to adopt the new technologies, but I think from even from, uh, aside from the organizational, um, and kind of key responsibilities that, that the new developers have to kinda adapt to and, and kind of inherit now, um, there's also from a technical perspective as there's, you know, um, more developers are owning the full stack, including the infrastructure piece. So that adds a lot more to the plate in Tim's oaf, also testing that component that they were not even, uh, responsible for before. Um, and, um, also the second challenge that, you know, I'm seeing is that on, you know, the long list of added, um, uh, tooling and, you know, there's new tool every other day. Um, and, um, that kind of requires more customization to the testing, uh, that each individual team, um, any individual developer Y by extension has to learn. Uh, so the customization, uh, as well as the, kind of the scope that had, uh, you know, now in conferences, the infrastructure piece, um, uh, both of act to the, to the challenges that we're seeing right now for, um, for CGI and overall testing, um, uh, the developers are saying, uh, in, in the market today. >>Yeah. We've got a lot of questions, um, about all the, all the different parts of this. So, uh, let me just go straight to them. Cause that's why we're here is for the people, uh, a lot of people asking about your favorite tools and in one of this is one of the challenges with integration, right? Is, um, there is no, there are dominant players, but there, there is such a variety. I mean, every one of my customers seems like they're using a different workflow and a different set of tools. So, and Hey, we're all here to just talk about what we're, what we're using, uh, you know, whether your favorite tools. So like a lot of the repeated questions are, what are your favorite tools? Like if you could create it from scratch, uh, what would you use? Pierre's asking, you know, GitHub actions sounds like they're a fan of GitHub actions, uh, w you know, mentioning, pushing the ECR and Docker hub and, uh, using vs code pipeline, I guess there may be talking about Azure pipelines. Um, what, what's your preferred way? So, does anyone have any, uh, thoughts on that anyone want to throw out there? Their preferred pipeline of tooling? >>Well, I have to throw out mine. I might as Jenkins, um, like kind of a honorary cloud be at this point, having spoken a couple of times there, um, all of the plugins just make the functionality. I don't love the UI, but I love that it's been around so long. It has so much community support, and there are so many plugins so that if you want to do something, you don't have to write the code it's already been tested. Um, unfortunately I haven't been able to use Jenkins in, uh, since I joined ship engine, we, most of our, um, our, our monolithic core application is, is team city. It's a dotnet application and TeamCity plays really well with.net. Um, didn't love it, uh, Ms. Jenkins. And I'm just, we're just starting some new initiatives that are using GitHub actions, and I'm really excited to learn, to learn those. I think they have a lot of the same functionality that you're looking for, but, um, much more simplified in is right there and get hubs. So, um, the integration is a lot more seamless, but I do have to go on record that my favorite CICT tools Jenkins. >>All right. You heard it here first people. All right. Anyone else? You're muted? I'm muted. Carlin says muted. Oh, Carla says, guest has muted themselves to Carlos. You got to unmute. >>Yes. I did mute myself because I was typing a lot, trying to, you know, try to answer stuff in the chat. And there's a lot of really dark stuff in there. That's okay. Two more times today. So yeah, it's fine. Yeah, no problem. So totally. And it's the best way to start a play more. So I'm just going to go ahead and light it up. Um, for enterprise environments, I actually am a huge fan of Jenkins. Um, it's a tool that people really understand. Um, it has stood the test of time, right? I mean, people were using Hudson, but 15 years ago, maybe longer. And, you know, the way it works, hasn't really changed very much. I mean, Jenkins X is a little different, but, um, the UI and the way it works internally is pretty familiar to a lot of enterprise environments, which is great. >>And also in me, the plugin ecosystem is amazing. There's so many plugins for everything, and you can make your own if you know, Java groovy. I'm sure there's a perfect Kotlin in there, but I haven't tried myself, but it's really great. It's also really easy to write, um, CIS code, which is something I'm a big fan of. So Jenkins files have been, have worked really well for me. I, I know that I can get a little bit more complex as you start to build your own models and such, but, you know, for enterprise enterprise CIO CD, if you want, especially if you want to roll your own or own it yourself, um, Jenkins is the bellwether and for very good reason now for my personal projects. And I see a lot on the chat here, I think y'all, y'all been agreed with me get hub actions 100%, my favorite tool right now. >>Um, I love GitHub actions. It's, it's customizable, it's modular. There's a lot of plugins already. I started using getting that back maybe a week after when GA and there was no documentation or anything. And I still, it was still my favorite CIA tool even then. Um, and you know, the API is really great. There's a lot to love about GitHub actions and, um, and I, and I use it as much as I can from my personal project. So I still have a soft spot for Travis CAI. Um, you know, they got acquired and they're a little different now trying to see, I, I can't, I can't let it go. I just love it. But, um, yeah, I mean, when it comes to Seattle, those are my tools. So light me up in the comments I will respond. Yeah. >>I mean, I, I feel with you on the Travis, the, I think, cause I think that was my first time experiencing, you know, early days get hub open source and like a free CIA tool that I could describe. I think it was the ammo back then. I don't actually remember, but yeah, it was kind of an exciting time from my experience. There was like, oh, this is, this is just there as a service. And I could just use it. It doesn't, it's like get hub it's free from my open source stuff. And so it does have a soft spot in my heart too. So yeah. >>All right. We've got questions around, um, cam, so I'm going to ask some questions. We don't have to have these answers because sometimes they're going to be specific, but I want to call them out because people in chat may have missed that question. And there's probably, you know, that we have smart people in chat too. So there's probably someone that knows the answer to these things. If, if it's not us, um, they're asking about building Docker images in Kubernetes, which to me is always a sore spot because it's Kubernetes does not build images by default. It's not meant for that out of the gate. And, uh, what is the best way to do this without having to use privileged containers, which privileged containers just implying that yeah, you, you, it probably has more privileges than by default as a container in Kubernetes. And that is a hard thing because, uh, I don't, I think Docker doesn't lie to do that out of the gate. So I don't know if anyone has an immediate answer to that. That's a pretty technical one, but if you, if you know the answer to that in chat, call it out. >>Um, >>I had done this, uh, but I'm pretty sure I had to use a privileged, um, container and install the Docker Damon on the Kubernetes cluster. And I CA I can't give you a better solution. Um, I've done the same. So, >>Yeah, uh, Chavonne asks, um, back to the Jenkins thing, what's the easiest way to integrate Docker into a Jenkins CICB pipeline. And that's one of the challenges I find with Jenkins because I don't claim to be the expert on Jenkins. Is there are so many plugins because of this, of this such a huge ecosystem. Um, when you go searching for Docker, there's a lot that comes back, right. So I, I don't actually have a preferred way because every team I find uses it differently. Um, I don't know, is there a, do you know if there's a Jenkins preferred, a default plugin? I don't even know for Docker. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Sorry for Docker. And jacon sorry, Docker plugins for Jenkins. Uh, as someone's asking like the preferred or easy way to do that. Um, and I don't, I don't know the back into Jenkins that well, so, >>Well, th the new, the new way that they're doing, uh, Docker builds with the pipeline, which is more declarative versus the groovy. It's really simple, and their documentation is really good. They, um, they make it really easy to say, run this in this image. So you can pull down, you know, public images and add your own layers. Um, so I don't know the name of that plugin, uh, but I can certainly take a minute after this session and going and get that. Um, but if you really are overwhelmed by the plugins, you can just write your, you know, your shell command in Jenkins. You could just by, you know, doing everything in bash, calling the Docker, um, Damon directly, and then getting it working just to see that end to end, and then start browsing for plugins to see if you even want to use those. >>The plugins will allow more integration from end to end. Some of the things that you input might be available later on in the process for having to manage that yourself. But, you know, you don't have to use any of the plugins. You can literally just, you know, do a block where you write your shell command and get it working, and then decide if, for plugins for you. Um, I think it's always under important to understand what is going on under the hood before you, before you adopt the magic of a plugin, because, um, once you have a problem, if you're, if it's all a lockbox to you, it's going to be more difficult to troubleshoot. It's kind of like learning, get command line versus like get cracking or something. Once, once you get in a bind, if you don't understand the underlying steps, it's really hard to get yourself out of a bind, versus if you understand what the plugin or the app is doing, then, um, you can get out of situations a lot easier. That's a good place. That's, that's where I'd start. >>Yeah. Thank you. Um, Camden asks better to build test environment images, every commit in CII. So this is like one of those opinions of we're all gonna have some different, uh, or build on build images on every commit, leveraging the cash, or build them once outside the test pile pipeline. Um, what say you people? >>Uh, well, I I've seen both and generally speaking, my preference is, um, I guess the ant, the it's a consultant answer, right? I think it depends on what you're trying to do, right. So if you have a lot of small changes that are being made and you're creating images for each of those commits, you're going to have a lot of images in your, in your registry, right? And on top of that, if you're building those images, uh, through CAI frequently, if you're using Docker hub or something like that, you might run into rate limiting issues because of Docker's new rate, limiting, uh, rate limits that they put in place. Um, but that might be beneficial if the, if being able to roll back between those small changes while you're testing is important to you. Uh, however, if all you care about is being able to use Docker images, um, or being able to correlate versions to your Docker images, or if you're the type of team that doesn't even use him, uh, does he even use, uh, virgins in your image tags? Then I would think that that might be a little, much you might want to just have in your CIO. You might want to have a stage that builds your Docker images and Docker image and pushes it into your registry, being done first particular branches instead of having to be done on every commit regardless of branch. But again, it really depends on the team. It really depends on what you're building. It really depends on your workflow. It can depend on a number of things like a curse sometimes too. Yeah. Yeah. >>Once had two points here, you know, I've seen, you know, the pattern has been at every, with every, uh, uh, commit, assuming that you have the right set of tests that would kind of, uh, you would benefit from actually seeing, um, the, the, the, the testing workflow go through and can detect any issue within, within the build or whatever you're trying to test against. But if you're just a building without the appropriate set of tests, then you're just basically consuming almond, adding time, as well as all the, the image, uh, stories associated with it without treaty reaping the benefit of, of, of this pattern. Uh, and the second point is, again, I think if you're, if you're going to end up doing a per commit, uh, definitely recommend having some type of, uh, uh, image purging, um, uh, and, and, and garbage collection process to ensure that you're not just wasting, um, all the stories needed and also, um, uh, optimizing your, your bill process, because that will end up being the most time-consuming, um, um, you know, within, within your pipeline. So this is my 2 cents on this. >>Yeah, that's good stuff. I mean, those are both of those are conversations that could lead us into the rabbit hole for the rest of the day on storage management, uh, you know, CP CPU minutes for, uh, you know, your build stuff. I mean, if you're in any size team, more than one or two people, you immediately run into headaches with cost of CIA, because we have now the problem of tools, right? We have so many tools. We can have the CIS system burning CPU cycles all day, every day, if we really wanted to. And so you re very quickly, I think, especially if you're on every commit on every branch, like that gets you into a world of cost mitigation, and you probably are going to have to settle somewhere in the middle on, uh, between the budget, people that are saying you're spending way too much money on the CII platform, uh, because of all these CPU cycles, and then the developers who would love to have everything now, you know, as fast as possible and the biggest, biggest CPU's, and the biggest servers, and have the bills, because the bills can never go fast enough, right. >>There's no end to optimizing your build workflow. Um, we have another question on that. This is another topic that we'll all probably have different takes on is, uh, basically, uh, version tags, right? So on images, we, we have a very established workflow in get for how we make commits. We have commit shots. We have, uh, you know, we know get tags and there's all these things there. And then we go into images and it's just this whole new world that's opened up. Like there's no real consensus. Um, so what, what are your thoughts on the strategy for teams in their image tag? Again, another, another culture thing. Um, commander, >>I mean, I'm a fan of silver when we have no other option. Um, it's just clean and I like the timestamp, you know, exactly when it was built. Um, I don't really see any reason to use another, uh, there's just normal, incremental, um, you know, numbering, but I love the fact that you can pull any tag and know exactly when it was created. So I'm a big fan of bar, if you can make that work for your organization. >>Yep. People are mentioned that in chat, >>So I like as well. Uh, I'm a big fan of it. I think it's easy to be able to just be as easy to be able to signify what a major changes versus a minor change versus just a hot fix or, you know, some or some kind of a bad fix. The problem that I've found with having teams adopt San Bernardo becomes answering these questions and being able to really define what is a major change, what is a minor change? What is a patch, right? And this becomes a bit of an overhead or not so much of an overhead, but, uh, uh, uh, a large concern for teams who have never done versioning before, or they never been responsible for their own versioning. Um, in fact, you know, I'm running into that right now, uh, with, with a client that I'm working with, where a lot, I'm working with a lot of teams, helping them move their applications from a legacy production environment into a new one. >>And in doing so, uh, versioning comes up because Docker images, uh, have tags and usually the tax correlate to versions, but some teams over there, some teams that I'm working with are only maintaining a script and others are maintaining a fully fledged JAK, three tier application, you know, with lots of dependencies. So telling the script, telling the team that maintains a script, Hey, you know, you should use somber and you should start thinking about, you know, what's major, what's my number what's patch. That might be a lot for them. And for someone or a team like that, I might just suggest using commit shots as your versions until you figure that out, or maybe using, um, dates as your version, but for the more for the team, with the larger application, they probably already know the answers to those questions. In which case they're either already using Sember or they, um, or they may be using some other version of the strategy and might be in December, might suit them better. So, um, you're going to hear me say, it depends a lot, and I'm just going to say here, it depends. Cause it really does. Carlos. >>I think you hit on something interesting beyond just how to version, but, um, when to consider it a major release and who makes those decisions, and if you leave it to engineers to version, you're kind of pushing business decisions down the pipe. Um, I think when it's a minor or a major should be a business decision and someone else needs to make that call someone closer to the business should be making that call as to when we want to call it major. >>That's a really good point. And I add some, I actually agree. Um, I absolutely agree with that. And again, it really depends on the team that on the team and the scope of it, it depends on the scope that they're maintaining, right? And so it's a business application. Of course, you're going to have a product manager and you're going to have, you're going to have a product manager who's going to want to make that call because that version is going to be out in marketing. People are going to use it. They're going to refer to and support calls. They're going to need to make those decisions. Sember again, works really, really well for that. Um, but for a team that's maintaining the scripts, you know, I don't know, having them say, okay, you must tell me what a major version is. It's >>A lot, but >>If they want it to use some birds great too, which is why I think going back to what you originally said, Sember in the absence of other options. I think that's a good strategy. >>Yeah. There's a, there's a, um, catching up on chat. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to catch up, but there's a lot of people commenting on their favorite CII systems and it's, and it, it just goes to show for the, the testing and deployment community. Like how many tools there are out there, how many tools there are to support the tools that you're using. Like, uh, it can be a crazy wilderness. And I think that's, that's part of the art of it, uh, is that these things are allowing us to build our workflows to the team's culture. Um, and, uh, but I do think that, you know, getting into like maybe what we hope to be at what's next is I do hope that we get to, to try to figure out some of these harder problems of consistency. Uh, one of the things that led me to Docker at the beginning to begin with was the fact that it wa it created a consistent packaging solution for me to get my code, you know, off of, off of my site of my local system, really, and into the server. >>And that whole workflow would at least the thing that I was making at each step was going to be the same thing used. Right. And that, that was huge. Uh, it was also, it also took us a long time to get there. Right. We all had to, like Docker was one of those ones that decade kind of ideas of let's solidify the, enter, get the consensus of the community around this idea. And we, and it's not perfect. Uh, you know, the Docker Docker file is not the most perfect way to describe how to make your app, but it is there and we're all using it. And now I'm looking for that next piece, right. Then hopefully the next step in that, um, that where we can all arrive at a consensus so that once you hop teams, you know, okay. We all knew Docker. We now, now we're all starting to get to know the manifests, but then there's this big gap in the middle where it's like, it might be one of a dozen things. Um, you know, so >>Yeah, yeah. To that, to that, Brett, um, you know, uh, just maybe more of a shameless plug here and wanting to kind of talk about one of the things that I'm on. So excited, but I work, I work at Tasha Corp. I don't know anyone, or I don't know if many people have heard of, um, you know, we tend to focus a lot on workflows versus technologies, right. Because, you know, as you can see, even just looking at the chat, there's, you know, ton of opinions on the different tooling, right. And, uh, imagine having, you know, I'm working with clients that have 10,000 developers. So imagine taking the folks in the chat and being partnered with one organization or one company and having to make decisions on how to build software. Um, but there's no way you can conversion one or, or one way or one tool, uh, and that's where we're facing in the industry. >>So one of the things that, uh, I'm pretty excited about, and I don't know if it's getting as much traction as you know, we've been focused on it. This is way point, which is a project, an open source project. I believe we got at least, uh, last year, um, which is, it's more of, uh, it's, it is aim to address that really, uh, uh, Brad set on, you know, to come to tool to, uh, make it extremely easy and simple. And, you know, to describe how you want to build, uh, deploy or release your application, uh, in, in a consistent way, regardless of the tools. So similar to how you can think of Terraform and having that pluggability to say Terraform apply or plan against any cloud infrastructure, uh, without really having to know exactly the details of how to do it, uh, this is what wave one is doing. Um, and it can be applied with, you know, for the CIA, uh, framework. So, you know, task plugability into, uh, you know, circle CEI tests to Docker helm, uh, Kubernetes. So that's the, you know, it's, it's a hard problem to solve, but, um, I'm hopeful that that's the path that we're, you know, we'll, we'll eventually get to. So, um, hope, you know, you can, you can, uh, see some of the, you know, information, data on it, on, on HashiCorp site, but I mean, I'm personally excited about it. >>Yeah. Uh I'm to gonna have to check that out. And, um, I told you on my live show, man, we'll talk about it, but talk about it for a whole hour. Uh, so there's another question here around, uh, this, this is actually a little bit more detailed, but it is one that I think a lot of people deal with and I deal with a lot too, is essentially the question is from Cameron, uh, D essentially, do you use compose in your CIO or not Docker compose? Uh, because yes I do. Yeah. Cause it, it, it, it solves so many problems am and not every CGI can, I don't know, there's some problems with a CIO is trying to do it for me. So there are pros and cons and I feel like I'm still on the fence about it because I use it all the time, but also it's not perfect. It's not always meant for CIA. And CIA sometimes tries to do things for you, like starting things up before you start other parts and having that whole order, uh, ordering problem of things anyway. W thoughts and when have thoughts. >>Yes. I love compose. It's one of my favorite tools of all time. Um, and the reason why it's, because what I often find I'm working with teams trying to actually let me walk that back, because Jack on the chat asked a really interesting question about what, what, what the hardest thing about CIS for a lot of teams. And in my experience, the hardest thing is getting teams to build an app that is the same app as what's built in production. A lot of CGI does things that are totally different than what you would do in your local, in your local dev. And as a result of that, you get, you got this application that either doesn't work locally, or it does work, but it's a completely different animal than what you would get in production. Right? So what I've found in trying to get teams to bridge that gap by basically taking their CGI, shifting the CII left, I hate the shift left turn, but I'll use it. >>I'm shifting the CIO left to your local development is trying to say, okay, how do we build an app? How do we, how do we build mot dependencies of that app so that we can build so that we can test our app? How do we run tests, right? How do we build, how do we get test data? And what I found is that trying to get teams to do all this in Docker, which is normally a first for a lot of teams that I'm working with, trying to get them all to do all of this. And Docker means you're running Docker, build a lot running Docker, run a lot. You're running Docker, RM a lot. You ran a lot of Docker, disparate Docker commands. And then on top of that, trying to bridge all of those containers together into a single network can be challenging without compose. >>So I like using a, to be able to really easily categorize and compartmentalize a lot of the things that are going to be done in CII, like building a Docker image, running tests, which is you're, you're going to do it in CII anyway. So running tests, building the image, pushing it to the registry. Well, I wouldn't say pushing it to the registry, but doing all the things that you would do in local dev, but in the same network that you might have a mock database or a mock S3 instance or some of something else. Um, so it's just easy to take all those Docker compose commands and move them into your Yammel file using the hub actions or your dankest Bob using Jenkins, or what have you. Right. It's really, it's really portable that way, but it doesn't work for every team. You know, for example, if you're just a team that, you know, going back to my script example, if it's a really simple script that does one thing on a somewhat routine basis, then that might be a lot of overhead. Um, in that case, you know, you can get away with just Docker commands. It's not a big deal, but the way I looked at it is if I'm, if I'm building, if I build something that's similar to a make bile or rate file, or what have you, then I'm probably gonna want to use Docker compose. If I'm working with Docker, that's, that's a philosophy of values, right? >>So I'm also a fan of Docker compose. And, um, you know, to your point, Carlos, the whole, I mean, I'm also a fan of shifting CEI lift and testing lift, but if you put all that logic in your CTI, um, it changes the L the local development experience from the CGI experience. Versus if you put everything in a compose file so that what you build locally is the same as what you build in CGI. Um, you're going to have a better experience because you're going to be testing something more, that's closer to what you're going to be releasing. And it's also very easy to look at a compose file and kind of, um, understand what the dependencies are and what's happening is very readable. And once you move that stuff to CGI, I think a lot of developers, you know, they're going to be intimidated by the CGI, um, whatever the scripting language is, it's going to be something they're going to have to wrap their head around. >>Um, but they're not gonna be able to use it locally. You're going to have to have another local solution. So I love the idea of a composed file use locally, um, especially if he can Mount the local workspace so that they can do real time development and see their changes in the exact same way as it's going to be built and tested in CGI. It gives developers a high level of confidence. And then, you know, you're less likely to have issues because of discrepancies between how it was built in your local test environment versus how it's built in NCI. And so Docker compose really lets you do all of that in a way that makes your solution more portable, portable between local dev and CGI and reduces the number of CGI cycles to get, you know, the test, the test data that you need. So that's why I like it for really, for local dev. >>It'll be interesting. Um, I don't know if you all were able to see the keynote, but there was a, there was a little bit, not a whole lot, but a little bit talk of the Docker, compose V two, which has now built into the Docker command line. And so now we're shifting from the Python built compose, which was a separate package. You could that one of the challenges was getting it into your CA solution because if you don't have PIP and you got down on the binary and the binary wasn't available for every platform and, uh, it was a PI installer. It gets a little nerdy into how that works, but, uh, and the team is now getting, be able to get unified with it. Now that it's in Golang and it's, and it's plugged right into the Docker command line, it hopefully will be easier to distribute, easier to, to use. >>And you won't have to necessarily have dependencies inside of where you're running it because there'll be a statically compiled binary. Um, so I've been playing with that, uh, this year. And so like training myself to do Docker going from Docker dash compose to Docker space, compose. It is a thing I I'm almost to the point of having to write a shell replacement. Yeah. Alias that thing. Um, but, um, I'm excited to see what that's going, cause there's already new features in it. And it, these built kit by default, like there's all these things. And I, I love build kit. We could make a whole session on build kit. Um, in fact there's actually, um, maybe going on right now, or right around this time, there is a session on, uh, from Solomon hikes, the seat, uh, co-founder of Docker, former CTO, uh, on build kit using, uh, using some other tool on top of build kit or whatever. >>So that, that would be interesting for those of you that are not watching that one. Cause you're here, uh, to do a check that one out later. Um, all right. So another good question was caching. So another one, another area where there is no wrong answers probably, and everyone has a different story. So the question is, what are your thoughts on CII build caching? There's often a debate between security. This is from Quentin. Thank you for this great question. There's often a debate between security reproducibility and build speeds. I haven't found a good answer so far. I will just throw my hat in the ring and say that the more times you want to build, like if you're trying to build every commit or every commit, if you're building many times a day, the more caching you need. So like the more times you're building, the more caching you're gonna likely want. And in most cases caching doesn't bite you in the butt, but that could be, yeah, we, can we get the bit about that? So, yeah. Yeah. >>I'm going to quote Carlos again and say, it depends on, on, you know, how you're talking, you know, what you're trying to build and I'm quoting your colors. Um, yeah, it's, it's got, it's gonna depend because, you know, there are some instances where you definitely want to use, you know, depends on the frequency that you're building and how you're building. Um, it's you would want to actually take advantage of cashing functionalities, um, for the build, uh, itself. Um, but if, um, you know, as you mentioned, there could be some instances where you would want to disable, um, any caching because you actually want to either pull a new packages or, um, you know, there could be some security, um, uh, disadvantages related to security aspects that would, you know, you know, using a cache version of, uh, image layer, for example, could be a problem. And you, you know, if you have a fleet of build, uh, engines, you don't have a good grasp of where they're being cashed. We would have to, um, disable caching in that, in that, um, in those instances. So it, it would depend. >>Yeah, it's, it's funny you have that problem on both sides of cashing. Like there are things that, especially in Docker world, they will cash automatically. And, and then, and then you maybe don't realize that some of that caching could be bad. It's, it's actually using old, uh, old assets, old artifacts, and then there's times where you would expect it to cash, that it doesn't cash. And then you have to do something extra to enable that caching, especially when you're dealing with that cluster of, of CIS servers. Right. And the cloud, the whole clustering problem with caching is even more complex, but yeah, >>But that's, that's when, >>Uh, you know, ever since I asked you to start using build kits and able to build kit, you know, between it's it's it's reader of Boston in, in detecting word, you know, where in, in the bill process needs to cash, as well as, uh, the, the, um, you know, the process. I don't think I've seen any other, uh, approach there that comes close to how efficient, uh, that process can become how much time it can actually save. Uh, but again, I think, I think that's, for me that had been my default approach, unless I actually need something that I would intentionally to disable caching for that purpose, but the benefits, at least for me, the benefits of, um, how bill kit actually been processing my bills, um, from the builds as well as, you know, using the cash up until, you know, how it detects the, the difference in, in, in the assets within the Docker file had been, um, you know, uh, pretty, you know, outweigh the disadvantages that it brings in. So it, you know, take it each case by case. And based on that, determine if you want to use it, but definitely recommend those enabling >>In the absence of a reason not to, um, I definitely think that it's a good approach in terms of speed. Um, yeah, I say you cash until you have a good reason not to personally >>Catch by default. There you go. I think you catch by default. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, the trick is, well, one, it's not always enabled by default, especially when you're talking about cross server. So that's a, that's a complexity for your SIS admins, or if you're on the cloud, you know, it's usually just an option. Um, I think it also is this, this veers into a little bit of, uh, the more you cash the in a lot of cases with Docker, like the, from like, if you're from images and checked every single time, if you're not pinning every single thing, if you're not painting your app version, you're at your MPN versions to the exact lock file definition. Like there's a lot of these things where I'm I get, I get sort of, I get very grouchy with teams that sort of let it, just let it all be like, yeah, we'll just build two images and they're totally going to have different dependencies because someone happened to update that thing and after whatever or MPM or, or, and so I get grouchy about that, cause I want to lock it all down, but I also know that that's going to create administrative burden. >>Like the team is now going to have to manage versions in a very much more granular way. Like, do we need to version two? Do we need to care about curl? You know, all that stuff. Um, so that's, that's kind of tricky, but when you get to, when you get to certain version problems, uh, sorry, uh, cashing problems, you, you, you don't want those set those caches to happen because it, if you're from image changes and you're not constantly checking for a new image, and if you're not pinning that V that version, then now you, you don't know whether you're getting the latest version of Davion or whatever. Um, so I think that there's, there's an art form to the more you pen, the less you have, the less, you have to be worried about things changing, but the more you pen, the, uh, all your versions of everything all the way down the stack, the more administrative stuff, because you're gonna have to manually change every one of those. >>So I think it's a balancing act for teams. And as you mature, I to find teams, they tend to pin more until they get to a point of being more comfortable with their testing. So the other side of this argument is if you trust your testing, then you, and you have better testing to me, the less likely to the subtle little differences in versions have to be penned because you can get away with those minor or patch level version changes. If you're thoroughly testing your app, because you're trusting your testing. And this gets us into a whole nother rant, but, uh, yeah, but talking >>About penny versions, if you've got a lot of dependencies isn't that when you would want to use the cash the most and not have to rebuild all those layers. Yeah. >>But if you're not, but if you're not painting to the exact patch version and you are caching, then you're not technically getting the latest versions because it's not checking for all the time. It's a weird, there's a lot of this subtle nuance that people don't realize until it's a problem. And that's part of the, the tricky part of allow this stuff, is it, sometimes the Docker can be almost so much magic out of the box that you, you, you get this all and it all works. And then day two happens and you built it a second time and you've got a new version of open SSL in there and suddenly it doesn't work. Um, so anyway, uh, that was a great question. I've done the question on this, on, uh, from heavy. What do you put, where do you put testing in your pipeline? Like, so testing the code cause there's lots of types of testing, uh, because this pipeline gets longer and longer and Docker building images as part of it. And so he says, um, before staging or after staging, but before production, where do you put it? >>Oh man. Okay. So, um, my, my main thought on this is, and of course this is kind of religious flame bait, so sure. You know, people are going to go into the compensation wrong. Carlos, the boy is how I like to think about it. So pretty much in every stage or every environment that you're going to be deploying your app into, or that your application is going to touch. My idea is that there should be a build of a Docker image that has all your applications coded in, along with its dependencies, there's testing that tests your application, and then there's a deployment that happens into whatever infrastructure there is. Right. So the testing, they can get tricky though. And the type of testing you do, I think depends on the environment that you're in. So if you're, let's say for example, your team and you have, you have a main branch and then you have feature branches that merged into the main branch. >>You don't have like a pre-production branch or anything like that. So in those feature branches, whenever I'm doing CGI that way, I know when I freak, when I cut my poll request, that I'm going to merge into main and everything's going to work in my feature branches, I'm going to want to probably just run unit tests and maybe some component tests, which really, which are just, you know, testing that your app can talk to another component or another part, another dependency, like maybe a database doing tests like that, that don't take a lot of time that are fascinating and right. A lot of would be done at the beach branch level and in my opinion, but when you're going to merge that beach branch into main, as part of a release in that activity, you're going to want to be able to do an integration tasks, to make sure that your app can actually talk to all the other dependencies that it talked to. >>You're going to want to do an end to end test or a smoke test, just to make sure that, you know, someone that actually touches the application, if it's like a website can actually use the website as intended and it meets the business cases and all that, and you might even have testing like performance testing, low performance load testing, or security testing, compliance testing that would want to happen in my opinion, when you're about to go into production with a release, because those are gonna take a long time. Those are very expensive. You're going to have to cut new infrastructure, run those tests, and it can become quite arduous. And you're not going to want to run those all the time. You'll have the resources, uh, builds will be slower. Uh, release will be slower. It will just become a mess. So I would want to save those for when I'm about to go into production. Instead of doing those every time I make a commit or every time I'm merging a feature ranch into a non main branch, that's the way I look at it, but everything does a different, um, there's other philosophies around it. Yeah. >>Well, I don't disagree with your build test deploy. I think if you're going to deploy the code, it needs to be tested. Um, at some level, I mean less the same. You've got, I hate the term smoke tests, cause it gives a false sense of security, but you have some mental minimum minimal amount of tests. And I would expect the developer on the feature branch to add new tests that tested that feature. And that would be part of the PR why those tests would need to pass before you can merge it, merge it to master. So I agree that there are tests that you, you want to run at different stages, but the earlier you can run the test before going to production. Um, the fewer issues you have, the easier it is to troubleshoot it. And I kind of agree with what you said, Carlos, about the longer running tests like performance tests and things like that, waiting to the end. >>The only problem is when you wait until the end to run those performance tests, you kind of end up deploying with whatever performance you have. It's, it's almost just an information gathering. So if you don't run your performance test early on, um, and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but performance tests can be really useless if you don't have a goal where it's just information gap, uh, this is, this is the performance. Well, what did you expect it to be? Is it good? Is it bad? They can get really nebulous. So if performance is really important, um, you you're gonna need to come up with some expectations, preferably, you know, set up the business level, like what our SLA is, what our response times and have something to shoot for. And then before you're getting to production. If you have targets, you can test before staging and you can tweak the code before staging and move that performance initiative. Sorry, Carlos, a little to the left. Um, but if you don't have a performance targets, then it's just a check box. So those are my thoughts. I like to test before every deployment. Right? >>Yeah. And you know what, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you brought, I'm glad that you brought up Escalades and performance because, and you know, the definition of performance says to me, because one of the things that I've seen when I work with teams is that oftentimes another team runs a P and L tests and they ended, and the development team doesn't really have too much insight into what's going on there. And usually when I go to the performance team and say, Hey, how do you run your performance test? It's usually just a generic solution for every single application that they support, which may or may not be applicable to the application team that I'm working with specifically. So I think it's a good, I'm not going to dig into it. I'm not going to dig into the rabbit hole SRE, but it is a good bridge into SRE when you start trying to define what does reliability mean, right? >>Because the reason why you test performance, it's test reliability to make sure that when you cut that release, that customers would go to your site or use your application. Aren't going to see regressions in performance and are not going to either go to another website or, you know, lodge in SLA violation or something like that. Um, it does, it does bridge really well with defining reliability and what SRE means. And when you have, when you start talking about that, that's when you started talking about how often do I run? How often do I test my reliability, the reliability of my application, right? Like, do I have nightly tasks in CGI that ensure that my main branch or, you know, some important branch I does not mean is meeting SLA is meeting SLR. So service level objectives, um, or, you know, do I run tasks that ensure that my SLA is being met in production? >>Like whenever, like do I use, do I do things like game days where I test, Hey, if I turn something off or, you know, if I deploy this small broken code to production and like what happens to my performance? What happens to my security and compliance? Um, you can, that you can go really deep into and take creating, um, into creating really robust tests that cover a lot of different domains. But I liked just using build test deploy is the overall answer to that because I find that you're going to have to build your application first. You're going to have to test it out there and build it, and then you're going to want to deploy it after you test it. And that order generally ensures that you're releasing software. That works. >>Right. Right. Um, I was going to ask one last question. Um, it's going to have to be like a sentence answer though, for each one of you. Uh, this is, uh, do you lint? And if you lint, do you lent all the things, if you do, do you fail the linters during your testing? Yes or no? I think it's going to depend on the culture. I really do. Sorry about it. If we >>Have a, you know, a hook, uh, you know, on the get commit, then theoretically the developer can't get code there without running Melinta anyway, >>So, right, right. True. Anyone else? Anyone thoughts on that? Linting >>Nice. I saw an additional question online thing. And in the chat, if you would introduce it in a multi-stage build, um, you know, I was wondering also what others think about that, like typically I've seen, you know, with multi-stage it's the most common use case is just to produce the final, like to minimize the, the, the, the, the, the image size and produce a final, you know, thin, uh, layout or thin, uh, image. Uh, so if it's not for that, like, I, I don't, I haven't seen a lot of, you know, um, teams or individuals who are actually within a multi-stage build. There's nothing really against that, but they think the number one purpose of doing multi-stage had been just producing the minimalist image. Um, so just wanted to kind of combine those two answers in one, uh, for sure. >>Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, and with that, um, thank you all for the great questions. We are going to have to wrap this up and we could go for another hour if we all had the time. And if Dr. Khan was a 24 hour long event and it didn't sadly, it's not. So we've got to make room for the next live panel, which will be Peter coming on and talking about security with some developer ex security experts. And I wanted to thank again, thank you all three of you for being here real quick, go around the room. Um, uh, where can people reach out to you? I am, uh, at Bret Fisher on Twitter. You can find me there. Carlos. >>I'm at dev Mandy with a Y D E N D Y that's me, um, >>Easiest name ever on Twitter, Carlos and DFW on LinkedIn. And I also have a LinkedIn learning course. So if you check me out on my LinkedIn learning, >>Yeah. I'm at Nicola Quebec. Um, one word, I'll put it in the chat as well on, on LinkedIn, as well as, uh, uh, as well as Twitter. Thanks for having us, Brett. Yeah. Thanks for being here. >>Um, and, and you all stay around. So if you're in the room with us chatting, you're gonna, you're gonna, if you want to go to see the next live panel, I've got to go back to the beginning and do that whole thing, uh, and find the next, because this one will end, but we'll still be in chat for a few minutes. I think the chat keeps going. I don't actually know. I haven't tried it yet. So we'll find out here in a minute. Um, but thanks you all for being here, I will be back a little bit later, but, uh, coming up next on the live stuff is Peter Wood security. Ciao. Bye.

(water running) (upbeat music) (electric buzzing) >> Fuel up! (upbeat music) (audience clapping) (upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE I'm in our Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. We have a great lineup here for DockerCon 2020. Virtual event, normally it was in person face to face. I'll be with you throughout the day from an amazing lineup of content, over 50 different sessions, cube tracks, keynotes, and we've got two great co-hosts here with Docker, Jenny Burcio and Bret Fisher. We'll be with you all day today, taking you through the program, helping you navigate the sessions. I'm so excited. Jenny, this is a virtual event. We talk about this. Can you believe it? Maybe the internet gods be with us today and hope everyone's having-- >> Yes. >> Easy time getting in. Jenny, Bret, thank you for-- >> Hello. >> Being here. >> Hey. >> Hi everyone, so great to see everyone chatting and telling us where they're from. Welcome to the Docker community. We have a great day planned for you. >> Guys great job getting this all together. I know how hard it is. These virtual events are hard to pull off. I'm blown away by the community at Docker. The amount of sessions that are coming in the sponsor support has been amazing. Just the overall excitement around the brand and the opportunities given this tough times where we're in. It's super exciting again, made the internet gods be with us throughout the day, but there's plenty of content. Bret's got an amazing all day marathon group of people coming in and chatting. Jenny, this has been an amazing journey and it's a great opportunity. Tell us about the virtual event. Why DockerCon virtual. Obviously everyone's canceling their events, but this is special to you guys. Talk about DockerCon virtual this year. >> The Docker community shows up at DockerCon every year, and even though we didn't have the opportunity to do an in person event this year, we didn't want to lose the time that we all come together at DockerCon. The conversations, the amazing content and learning opportunities. So we decided back in December to make DockerCon a virtual event. And of course when we did that, there was no quarantine we didn't expect, you know, I certainly didn't expect to be delivering it from my living room, but we were just, I mean we were completely blown away. There's nearly 70,000 people across the globe that have registered for DockerCon today. And when you look at DockerCon of past right live events, really and we're learning are just the tip of the iceberg and so thrilled to be able to deliver a more inclusive global event today. And we have so much planned I think. Bret, you want to tell us some of the things that you have planned? >> Well, I'm sure I'm going to forget something 'cause there's a lot going on. But, we've obviously got interviews all day today on this channel with John and the crew. Jenny has put together an amazing set of all these speakers, and then you have the captain's on deck, which is essentially the YouTube live hangout where we just basically talk shop. It's all engineers, all day long. Captains and special guests. And we're going to be in chat talking to you about answering your questions. Maybe we'll dig into some stuff based on the problems you're having or the questions you have. Maybe there'll be some random demos, but it's basically not scripted, it's an all day long unscripted event. So I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun hanging out in there. >> Well guys, I want to just say it's been amazing how you structured this so everyone has a chance to ask questions, whether it's informal laid back in the captain's channel or in the sessions, where the speakers will be there with their presentations. But Jenny, I want to get your thoughts because we have a site out there that's structured a certain way for the folks watching. If you're on your desktop, there's a main stage hero. There's then tracks and Bret's running the captain's tracks. You can click on that link and jump into his session all day long. He's got an amazing set of line of sleet, leaning back, having a good time. And then each of the tracks, you can jump into those sessions. It's on a clock, it'll be available on demand. All that content is available if you're on your desktop. If you're on your mobile, it's the same thing. Look at the calendar, find the session that you want. If you're interested in it, you could watch it live and chat with the participants in real time or watch it on demand. So there's plenty of content to navigate through. We do have it on a clock and we'll be streaming sessions as they happen. So you're in the moment and that's a great time to chat in real time. But there's more, Jenny, getting more out of this event. You guys try to bring together the stimulation of community. How does the participants get more out of the the event besides just consuming some of the content all day today? >> Yes, so first set up your profile, put your picture next to your chat handle and then chat. John said we have various setups today to help you get the most out of your experience are breakout sessions. The content is prerecorded, so you get quality content and the speakers and chat so you can ask questions the whole time. If you're looking for the hallway track, then definitely check out the captain's on deck channel. And then we have some great interviews all day on the queue. So set up your profile, join the conversation and be kind, right? This is a community event. Code of conduct is linked on every page at the top, and just have a great day. >> And Bret, you guys have an amazing lineup on the captain, so you have a great YouTube channel that you have your stream on. So the folks who were familiar with that can get that either on YouTube or on the site. The chat is integrated in, So you're set up, what do you got going on? Give us the highlights. What are you excited about throughout your day? Take us through your program on the captains. That's going to be probably pretty dynamic in the chat too. >> Yeah, so I'm sure we're going to have lots of, stuff going on in chat. So no cLancaerns there about, having crickets in the chat. But we're going to be basically starting the day with two of my good Docker captain friends, (murmurs) and Laura Taco. And we're going to basically start you out and at the end of this keynote, at the end of this hour and we're going to get you going and then you can maybe jump out and go to take some sessions. Maybe there's some stuff you want to check out and other sessions that you want to chat and talk with the instructors, the speakers there, and then you're going to come back to us, right? Or go over, check out the interviews. So the idea is you're hopping back and forth and throughout the day we're basically changing out every hour. We're not just changing out the guests basically, but we're also changing out the topics that we can cover because different guests will have different expertise. We're going to have some special guests in from Microsoft, talk about some of the cool stuff going on there, and basically it's captains all day long. And if you've been on my YouTube live show you've watched that, you've seen a lot of the guests we have on there. I'm lucky to just hang out with all these really awesome people around the world, so it's going to be fun. >> Awesome and the content again has been preserved. You guys had a great session on call for paper sessions. Jenny, this is good stuff. What other things can people do to make it interesting? Obviously we're looking for suggestions. Feel free to chirp on Twitter about ideas that can be new. But you guys got some surprises. There's some selfies, what else? What's going on? Any secret, surprises throughout the day. >> There are secret surprises throughout the day. You'll need to pay attention to the keynotes. Bret will have giveaways. I know our wonderful sponsors have giveaways planned as well in their sessions. Hopefully right you feel conflicted about what you're going to attend. So do know that everything is recorded and will be available on demand afterwards so you can catch anything that you miss. Most of them will be available right after they stream the initial time. >> All right, great stuff, so they've got the Docker selfie. So the Docker selfies, the hashtag is just DockerCon hashtag DockerCon. If you feel like you want to add some of the hashtag no problem, check out the sessions. You can pop in and out of the captains is kind of the cool kids are going to be hanging out with Bret and then all they'll knowledge and learning. Don't miss the keynote, the keynote should be solid. We've got chain Governor from red monk delivering a keynote. I'll be interviewing him live after his keynote. So stay with us. And again, check out the interactive calendar. All you got to do is look at the calendar and click on the session you want. You'll jump right in. Hop around, give us feedback. We're doing our best. Bret, any final thoughts on what you want to share to the community around, what you got going on the virtual event, just random thoughts? >> Yeah, so sorry we can't all be together in the same physical place. But the coolest thing about as business online, is that we actually get to involve everyone, so as long as you have a computer and internet, you can actually attend DockerCon if you've never been to one before. So we're trying to recreate that experience online. Like Jenny said, the code of conduct is important. So, we're all in this together with the chat, so try to be nice in there. These are all real humans that, have feelings just like me. So let's try to keep it cool. And, over in the Catherine's channel we'll be taking your questions and maybe playing some music, playing some games, giving away some free stuff, while you're, in between sessions learning, oh yeah. >> And I got to say props to your rig. You've got an amazing setup there, Bret. I love what your show, you do. It's really bad ass and kick ass. So great stuff. Jenny sponsors ecosystem response to this event has been phenomenal. The attendance 67,000. We're seeing a surge of people hitting the site now. So if you're not getting in, just, Wade's going, we're going to crank through the queue, but the sponsors on the ecosystem really delivered on the content side and also the sport. You want to share a few shout outs on the sponsors who really kind of helped make this happen. >> Yeah, so definitely make sure you check out the sponsor pages and you go, each page is the actual content that they will be delivering. So they are delivering great content to you. So you can learn and a huge thank you to our platinum and gold authors. >> Awesome, well I got to say, I'm super impressed. I'm looking forward to the Microsoft Amazon sessions, which are going to be good. And there's a couple of great customer sessions there. I tweeted this out last night and let them get you guys' reaction to this because there's been a lot of talk around the COVID crisis that we're in, but there's also a positive upshot to this is Cambridge and explosion of developers that are going to be building new apps. And I said, you know, apps aren't going to just change the world, they're going to save the world. So a lot of the theme here is the impact that developers are having right now in the current situation. If we get the goodness of compose and all the things going on in Docker and the relationships, this real impact happening with the developer community. And it's pretty evident in the program and some of the talks and some of the examples. how containers and microservices are certainly changing the world and helping save the world, your thoughts. >> Like you said, a number of sessions and interviews in the program today that really dive into that. And even particularly around COVID, Clement Beyondo is sharing his company's experience, from being able to continue operations in Italy when they were completely shut down beginning of March. We have also in theCUBE channel several interviews about from the national Institute of health and precision cancer medicine at the end of the day. And you just can really see how containerization and developers are moving in industry and really humanity forward because of what they're able to build and create, with advances in technology. >> Yeah and the first responders and these days is developers. Bret compose is getting a lot of traction on Twitter. I can see some buzz already building up. There's huge traction with compose, just the ease of use and almost a call for arms for integrating into all the system language libraries, I mean, what's going on with compose? I mean, what's the captain say about this? I mean, it seems to be really tracking in terms of demand and interest. >> I think we're over 700,000 composed files on GitHub. So it's definitely beyond just the standard Docker run commands. It's definitely the next tool that people use to run containers. Just by having that we just buy, and that's not even counting. I mean that's just counting the files that are named Docker compose YAML. So I'm sure a lot of you out there have created a YAML file to manage your local containers or even on a server with Docker compose. And the nice thing is is Docker is doubling down on that. So we've gotten some news recently, from them about what they want to do with opening the spec up, getting more companies involved because compose is already gathered so much interest from the community. You know, AWS has importers, there's Kubernetes importers for it. So there's more stuff coming and we might just see something here in a few minutes. >> All right, well let's get into the keynote guys, jump into the keynote. If you missing anything, come back to the stream, check out the sessions, check out the calendar. Let's go, let's have a great time. Have some fun, thanks and enjoy the rest of the day we'll see you soon. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Okay, what is the name of that Whale? >> Molly. >> And what is the name of this Whale? >> Mobby. >> That's right, dad's got to go, thanks bud. >> Bye. >> Bye. Hi, I'm Scott Johnson, CEO of Docker and welcome to DockerCon 2020. This year DockerCon is an all virtual event with more than 60,000 members of the Docker Community joining from around the world. And with the global shelter in place policies, we're excited to offer a unifying, inclusive virtual community event in which anyone and everyone can participate from their home. As a company, Docker has been through a lot of changes since our last DockerCon last year. The most important starting last November, is our refocusing 100% on developers and development teams. As part of that refocusing, one of the big challenges we've been working on, is how to help development teams quickly and efficiently get their app from code to cloud And wouldn't it be cool, if developers could quickly deploy to the cloud right from their local environment with the commands and workflow they already know. We're excited to give you a sneak preview of what we've been working on. And rather than slides, we thought we jumped right into the product. And joining me demonstrate some of these cool new features, is enclave your DACA. One of our engineers here at Docker working on Docker compose. Hello Lanca. >> Hello. >> We're going to show how an application development team collaborates using Docker desktop and Docker hub. And then deploys the app directly from the Docker command line to the clouds in just two commands. A development team would use this to quickly share functional changes of their app with the product management team, with beta testers or other development teams. Let's go ahead and take a look at our app. Now, this is a web app, that randomly pulls words from the database, and assembles them into sentences. You can see it's a pretty typical three tier application with each tier implemented in its own container. We have a front end web service, a middle tier, which implements the logic to randomly pull the words from the database and assemble them and a backend database. And here you can see the database uses the Postgres official image from Docker hub. Now let's first run the app locally using Docker command line and the Docker engine in Docker desktop. We'll do a Doc compose up and you can see that it's pulling the containers from our Docker organization account. Wordsmith, inc. Now that it's up. Let's go ahead and look at local host and we'll confirm that the application is functioning as desired. So there's one sentence, let's pull and now you and you can indeed see that we are pulling random words and assembling into sentences. Now you can also see though that the look and feel is a bit dated. And so Lanca is going to show us how easy it is to make changes and share them with the rest of the team. Lanca, over to you. >> Thank you, so I have, the source code of our application on my machine and I have updated it with the latest team from DockerCon 2020. So before committing the code, I'm going to build the application locally and run it, to verify that indeed the changes are good. So I'm going to build with Docker compose the image for the web service. Now that the image has been built, I'm going to deploy it locally. Wait to compose up. We can now check the dashboard in a Docker desktop that indeed our containers are up and running, and we can access, we can open in the web browser, the end point for the web service. So as we can see, we have the latest changes in for our application. So as you can see, the application has been updated successfully. So now, I'm going to push the image that I have just built to my organization's shared repository on Docker hub. So I can do this with Docker compose push web. Now that the image has been updated in the Docker hub repository, or my teammates can access it and check the changes. >> Excellent, well, thank you Lanca. Now of course, in these times, video conferencing is the new normal, and as great as it is, video conferencing does not allow users to actually test the application. And so, to allow us to have our app be accessible by others outside organizations such as beta testers or others, let's go ahead and deploy to the cloud. >> Sure we, can do this by employing a context. A Docker context, is a mechanism that we can use to target different platforms for deploying containers. The context we hold, information as the endpoint for the platform, and also how to authenticate to it. So I'm going to list the context that I have set locally. As you can see, I'm currently using the default context that is pointing to my local Docker engine. So all the commands that I have issued so far, we're targeting my local engine. Now, in order to deploy the application on a cloud. I have an account in the Azure Cloud, where I have no resource running currently, and I have created for this account, dedicated context that will hold the information on how to connect it to it. So now all I need to do, is to switch to this context, with Docker context use, and the name of my cloud context. So all the commands that I'm going to run, from now on, are going to target the cloud platform. So we can also check very, more simpler, in a simpler way we can check the running containers with Docker PS. So as we see no container is running in my cloud account. Now to deploy the application, all I need to do is to run a Docker compose up. And this will trigger the deployment of my application. >> Thanks Lanca. Now notice that Lanca did not have to move the composed file from Docker desktop to Azure. Notice you have to make any changes to the Docker compose file, and nor did she change any of the containers that she and I were using locally in our local environments. So the same composed file, same images, run locally and upon Azure without changes. While the app is deploying to Azure, let's highlight some of the features in Docker hub that helps teams with remote first collaboration. So first, here's our team's account where it (murmurs) and you can see the updated container sentences web that Lanca just pushed a couple of minutes ago. As far as collaboration, we can add members using their Docker ID or their email, and then we can organize them into different teams depending on their role in the application development process. So and then Lancae they're organized into different teams, we can assign them permissions, so that teams can work in parallel without stepping on each other's changes accidentally. For example, we'll give the engineering team full read, write access, whereas the product management team will go ahead and just give read only access. So this role based access controls, is just one of the many features in Docker hub that allows teams to collaboratively and quickly develop applications. Okay Lanca, how's our app doing? >> Our app has been successfully deployed to the cloud. So, we can easily check either the Azure portal to verify the containers running for it or simpler we can run a Docker PS again to get the list with the containers that have been deployed for it. In the output from the Docker PS, we can see an end point that we can use to access our application in the web browser. So we can see the application running in clouds. It's really up to date and now we can take this particular endpoint and share it within our organization such that anybody can have a look at it. >> That's cool Onka. We showed how we can deploy an app to the cloud in minutes and just two commands, and using commands that Docker users already know, thanks so much. In that sneak preview, you saw a team developing an app collaboratively, with a tool chain that includes Docker desktop and Docker hub. And simply by switching Docker context from their local environment to the cloud, deploy that app to the cloud, to Azure without leaving the command line using Docker commands they already know. And in doing so, really simplifying for development team, getting their app from code to cloud. And just as important, what you did not see, was a lot of complexity. You did not see cloud specific interfaces, user management or security. You did not see us having to provision and configure compute networking and storage resources in the cloud. And you did not see infrastructure specific application changes to either the composed file or the Docker images. And by simplifying a way that complexity, these new features help application DevOps teams, quickly iterate and get their ideas, their apps from code to cloud, and helping development teams, build share and run great applications, is what Docker is all about. A Docker is able to simplify for development teams getting their app from code to cloud quickly as a result of standards, products and ecosystem partners. It starts with open standards for applications and application artifacts, and active open source communities around those standards to ensure portability and choice. Then as you saw in the demo, the Docker experience delivered by Docker desktop and Docker hub, simplifies a team's collaborative development of applications, and together with ecosystem partners provides every stage of an application development tool chain. For example, deploying applications to the cloud in two commands. What you saw on the demo, well that's an extension of our strategic partnership with Microsoft, which we announced yesterday. And you can learn more about our partnership from Amanda Silver from Microsoft later today, right here at DockerCon. Another tool chain stage, the capability to scan applications for security and vulnerabilities, as a result of our partnership with Sneak, which we announced last week. You can learn more about that partnership from Peter McKay, CEO Sneak, again later today, right here at DockerCon. A third example, development team can automate the build of container images upon a simple get push, as a result of Docker hub integrations with GitHub and Alaska and Bitbucket. As a final example of Docker and the ecosystem helping teams quickly build applications, together with our ISV partners. We offer in Docker hub over 500 official and verified publisher images of ready to run Dockerized application components such as databases, load balancers, programming languages, and much more. Of course, none of this happens without people. And I would like to take a moment to thank four groups of people in particular. First, the Docker team, past and present. We've had a challenging 12 months including a restructuring and then a global pandemic, and yet their support for each other, and their passion for the product, this community and our customers has never been stronger. We think our community, Docker wouldn't be Docker without you, and whether you're one of the 50 Docker captains, they're almost 400 meetup organizers, the thousands of contributors and maintainers. Every day you show up, you give back, you teach new support. We thank our users, more than six and a half million developers who have built more than 7 million applications and are then sharing those applications through Docker hub at a rate of more than one and a half billion poles per week. Those apps are then run, are more than 44 million Docker engines. And finally, we thank our customers, the over 18,000 docker subscribers, both individual developers and development teams from startups to large organizations, 60% of which are outside the United States. And they spend every industry vertical, from media, to entertainment to manufacturing. healthcare and much more. Thank you. Now looking forward, given these unprecedented times, we would like to offer a challenge. While it would be easy to feel helpless and miss this global pandemic, the challenge is for us as individuals and as a community to instead see and grasp the tremendous opportunities before us to be forces for good. For starters, look no further than the pandemic itself, in the fight against this global disaster, applications and data are playing a critical role, and the Docker Community quickly recognize this and rose to the challenge. There are over 600 COVID-19 related publicly available projects on Docker hub today, from data processing to genome analytics to data visualization folding at home. The distributed computing project for simulating protein dynamics, is also available on Docker hub, and it uses spirit compute capacity to analyze COVID-19 proteins to aid in the design of new therapies. And right here at DockerCon, you can hear how Clemente Biondo and his company engineering in Gagne area Informatica are using Docker in the fight with COVID-19 in Italy every day. Now, in addition to fighting the pandemic directly, as a community, we also have an opportunity to bridge the disruption the pandemic is wreaking. It's impacting us at work and at home in every country around the world and every aspect of our lives. For example, many of you have a student at home, whose world is going to be very different when they returned to school. As employees, all of us have experienced the stresses from working from home as well as many of the benefits and in fact 75% of us say that going forward, we're going to continue to work from home at least occasionally. And of course one of the biggest disruptions has been job losses, over 35 million in the United States alone. And we know that's affected many of you. And yet your skills are in such demand and so important now more than ever. And that's why here at DockerCon, we want to try to do our part to help, and we're promoting this hashtag on Twitter, hashtag DockerCon jobs, where job seekers and those offering jobs can reach out to one another and connect. Now, pandemics disruption is accelerating the shift of more and more of our time, our priorities, our dollars from offline to online to hybrid, and even online only ways of living. We need to find new ways to collaborate, new approaches to engage customers, new modes for education and much more. And what is going to fill the needs created by this acceleration from offline, online? New applications. And it's this need, this demand for all these new applications that represents a great opportunity for the Docker community of developers. The world needs us, needs you developers now more than ever. So let's seize this moment. Let us in our teams, go build share and run great new applications. Thank you for joining today. And let's have a great DockerCon. >> Okay, welcome back to the DockerCon studio headquarters in your hosts, Jenny Burcio and myself John Furrier. u@farrier on Twitter. If you want to tweet me anything @DockerCon as well, share what you're thinking. Great keynote there from Scott CEO. Jenny, demo DockerCon jobs, some highlights there from Scott. Yeah, I love the intro. It's okay I'm about to do the keynote. The little green room comes on, makes it human. We're all trying to survive-- >> Let me answer the reality of what we are all doing with right now. I had to ask my kids to leave though or they would crash the whole stream but yes, we have a great community, a large community gather gathered here today, and we do want to take the opportunity for those that are looking for jobs, are hiring, to share with the hashtag DockerCon jobs. In addition, we want to support direct health care workers, and Bret Fisher and the captains will be running a all day charity stream on the captain's channel. Go there and you'll get the link to donate to directrelief.org which is a California based nonprofit, delivering and aid and supporting health care workers globally response to the COVID-19 crisis. >> Okay, if you jumping into the stream, I'm John Farrie with Jenny Webby, your hosts all day today throughout DockerCon. It's a packed house of great content. You have a main stream, theCUBE which is the mainstream that we'll be promoting a lot of cube interviews. But check out the 40 plus sessions underneath in the interactive calendar on dockercon.com site. Check it out, they're going to be live on a clock. So if you want to participate in real time in the chat, jump into your session on the track of your choice and participate with the folks in there chatting. If you miss it, it's going to go right on demand right after sort of all content will be immediately be available. So make sure you check it out. Docker selfie is a hashtag. Take a selfie, share it. Docker hashtag Docker jobs. If you're looking for a job or have openings, please share with the community and of course give us feedback on what you can do. We got James Governor, the keynote coming up next. He's with Red monk. Not afraid to share his opinion on open source on what companies should be doing, and also the evolution of this Cambrin explosion of apps that are going to be coming as we come out of this post pandemic world. A lot of people are thinking about this, the crisis and following through. So stay with us for more and more coverage. Jenny, favorite sessions on your mind for people to pay attention to that they should (murmurs)? >> I just want to address a few things that continue to come up in the chat sessions, especially breakout sessions after they play live and the speakers in chat with you, those go on demand, they are recorded, you will be able to access them. Also, if the screen is too small, there is the button to expand full screen, and different quality levels for the video that you can choose on your end. All the breakout sessions also have closed captioning, so please if you would like to read along, turn that on so you can, stay with the sessions. We have some great sessions, kicking off right at 10:00 a.m, getting started with Docker. We have a full track really in the how to enhance on that you should check out devs in action, hear what other people are doing and then of course our sponsors are delivering great content to you all day long. >> Tons of content. It's all available. They'll always be up always on at large scale. Thanks for watching. Now we got James Governor, the keynote. He's with Red Monk, the analyst firm and has been tracking open source for many generations. He's been doing amazing work. Watch his great keynote. I'm going to be interviewing him live right after. So stay with us and enjoy the rest of the day. We'll see you back shortly. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm James Governor, one of the co-founders of a company called RedMonk. We're an industry research firm focusing on developer led technology adoption. So that's I guess why Docker invited me to DockerCon 2020 to talk about some trends that we're seeing in the world of work and software development. So Monk Chips, that's who I am. I spent a lot of time on Twitter. It's a great research tool. It's a great way to find out what's going on with keep track of, as I say, there's people that we value so highly software developers, engineers and practitioners. So when I started talking to Docker about this event and it was pre Rhona, should we say, the idea of a crowd wasn't a scary thing, but today you see something like this, it makes you feel uncomfortable. This is not a place that I want to be. I'm pretty sure it's a place you don't want to be. And you know, to that end, I think it's interesting quote by Ellen Powell, she says, "Work from home is now just work" And we're going to see more and more of that. Organizations aren't feeling the same way they did about work before. Who all these people? Who is my cLancaern? So GitHub says has 50 million developers right on its network. Now, one of the things I think is most interesting, it's not that it has 50 million developers. Perhaps that's a proxy for number of developers worldwide. But quite frankly, a lot of those accounts, there's all kinds of people there. They're just Selena's. There are data engineers, there are data scientists, there are product managers, there were tech marketers. It's a big, big community and it goes way beyond just software developers itself. Frankly for me, I'd probably be saying there's more like 20 to 25 million developers worldwide, but GitHub knows a lot about the world of code. So what else do they know? One of the things they know is that world of code software and opensource, is becoming increasingly global. I get so excited about this stuff. The idea that there are these different software communities around the planet where we're seeing massive expansions in terms of things like open source. Great example is Nigeria. So Nigeria more than 200 million people, right? The energy there in terms of events, in terms of learning, in terms of teaching, in terms of the desire to code, the desire to launch businesses, desire to be part of a global software community is just so exciting. And you know, these, this sort of energy is not just in Nigeria, it's in other countries in Africa, it's happening in Egypt. It's happening around the world. This energy is something that's super interesting to me. We need to think about that. We've got global that we need to solve. And software is going to be a big part of that. At the moment, we can talk about other countries, but what about frankly the gender gap, the gender issue that, you know, from 1984 onwards, the number of women taking computer science degrees began to, not track but to create in comparison to what men were doing. The tech industry is way too male focused, there are men that are dominant, it's not welcoming, we haven't found ways to have those pathways and frankly to drive inclusion. And the women I know in tech, have to deal with the massively disproportionate amount of stress and things like online networks. But talking about online networks and talking about a better way of living, I was really excited by get up satellite recently, was a fantastic demo by Alison McMillan and she did a demo of a code spaces. So code spaces is Microsoft online ID, new platform that they've built. And online IDs, we're never quite sure, you know, plenty of people still out there just using the max. But, visual studio code has been a big success. And so this idea of moving to one online IDE, it's been around that for awhile. What they did was just make really tight integration. So you're in your GitHub repo and just be able to create a development environment with effectively one click, getting rid of all of the act shaving, making it super easy. And what I loved was it the demo, what Ali's like, yeah cause this is great. One of my kids are having a nap, I can just start (murmurs) and I don't have to sort out all the rest of it. And to me that was amazing. It was like productivity as inclusion. I'm here was a senior director at GitHub. They're doing this amazing work and then making this clear statement about being a parent. And I think that was fantastic. Because that's what, to me, importantly just working from home, which has been so challenging for so many of us, began to open up new possibilities, and frankly exciting possibilities. So Alley's also got a podcast parent-driven development, which I think is super important. Because this is about men and women rule in this together show parenting is a team sport, same as software development. And the idea that we should be thinking about, how to be more productive, is super important to me. So I want to talk a bit about developer culture and how it led to social media. Because you know, your social media, we're in this ad bomb stage now. It's TikTok, it's like exercise, people doing incredible back flips and stuff like that. Doing a bunch of dancing. We've had the world of sharing cat gifts, Facebook, we sort of see social media is I think a phenomenon in its own right. Whereas the me, I think it's interesting because it's its progenitors, where did it come from? So here's (murmurs) So 1971, one of the features in the emergency management information system, that he built, which it's topical, it was for medical tracking medical information as well, medical emergencies, included a bulletin board system. So that it could keep track of what people were doing on a team and make sure that they were collaborating effectively, boom! That was the start of something big, obviously. Another day I think is worth looking at 1983, Sorania Pullman, spanning tree protocol. So at DEC, they were very good at distributed systems. And the idea was that you can have a distributed system and so much of the internet working that we do today was based on radius work. And then it showed that basically, you could span out a huge network so that everyone could collaborate. That is incredibly exciting in terms of the trends, that I'm talking about. So then let's look at 1988, you've got IRC. IRC what developer has not used IRC, right. Well, I guess maybe some of the other ones might not have. But I don't know if we're post IRC yet, but (murmurs) at a finished university, really nailed it with IRC as a platform that people could communicate effectively with. And then we go into like 1991. So we've had IRC, we've had finished universities, doing a lot of really fantastic work about collaboration. And I don't think it was necessarily an accident that this is where the line is twofold, announced Linux. So Linux was a wonderfully packaged, idea in terms of we're going to take this Unix thing. And when I say package, what a package was the idea that we could collaborate on software. So, it may have just been the work of one person, but clearly what made it important, made it interesting, was finding a social networking pattern, for software development so that everybody could work on something at scale. That was really, I think, fundamental and foundational. Now I think it's important, We're going to talk about Linus, to talk about some things that are not good about software culture, not good about open source culture, not good about hacker culture. And that's where I'm going to talk about code of conduct. We have not been welcoming to new people. We got the acronyms, JFTI, We call people news, that's super unhelpful. We've got to find ways to be more welcoming and more self-sustaining in our communities, because otherwise communities will fail. And I'd like to thank everyone that has a code of conduct and has encouraged others to have codes of conduct. We need to have codes of conduct that are enforced to ensure that we have better diversity at our events. And that's what women, underrepresented minorities, all different kinds of people need to be well looked off to and be in safe and inclusive spaces. And that's the online events. But of course it's also for all of our activities offline. So Linus, as I say, I'm not the most charming of characters at all time, but he has done some amazing technology. So we got to like 2005 the creation of GIT. Not necessarily the distributed version control system that would win. But there was some interesting principles there, and they'd come out of the work that he had done in terms of trying to build and sustain the Linux code base. So it was very much based on experience. He had an itch that he needed to scratch and there was a community that was this building, this thing. So what was going to be the option, came up with Git foundational to another huge wave of social change, frankly get to logical awesome. April 20 April, 2008 GitHub, right? GiHub comes up, they've looked at Git, they've packaged it up, they found a way to make it consumable so the teams could use it and really begin to take advantage of the power of that distributed version control model. Now, ironically enough, of course they centralized the service in doing so. So we have a single point of failure on GitHub. But on the other hand, the notion of the poll request, the primitives that they established and made usable by people, that changed everything in terms of software development. I think another one that I'd really like to look at is Slack. So Slack is a huge success used by all different kinds of businesses. But it began specifically as a pivot from a company called Glitch. It was a game company and they still wanted, a tool internally that was better than IRC. So they built out something that later became Slack. So Slack 2014, is established as a company and basically it was this Slack fit software engineering. The focus on automation, the conversational aspects, the asynchronous aspects. It really pulled things together in a way that was interesting to software developers. And I think we've seen this pattern in the world, frankly, of the last few years. Software developers are influences. So Slack first used by the engineering teams, later used by everybody. And arguably you could say the same thing actually happened with Apple. Apple was mainstreamed by developers adopting that platform. Get to 2013, boom again, Solomon Hikes, Docker, right? So Docker was, I mean containers were not new, they were just super hard to use. People found it difficult technology, it was Easter Terek. It wasn't something that they could fully understand. Solomon did an incredible job of understanding how containers could fit into modern developer workflows. So if we think about immutable images, if we think about the ability to have everything required in the package where you are, it really tied into what people were trying to do with CICD, tied into microservices. And certainly the notion of sort of display usability Docker nailed that, and I guess from this conference, at least the rest is history. So I want to talk a little bit about, scratching the itch. And particularly what has become, I call it the developer authentic. So let's go into dark mode now. I've talked about developers laying out these foundations and frameworks that, the mainstream, frankly now my son, he's 14, he (murmurs) at me if I don't have dark mode on in an application. And it's this notion that developers, they have an aesthetic, it does get adopted I mean it's quite often jokey. One of the things we've seen in the really successful platforms like GitHub, Docker, NPM, let's look at GitHub. Let's look at over that Playfulness. I think was really interesting. And that changes the world of work, right? So we've got the world of work which can be buttoned up, which can be somewhat tight. I think both of those companies were really influential, in thinking that software development, which is a profession, it's also something that can and is fun. And I think about how can we make it more fun? How can we develop better applications together? Takes me to, if we think about Docker talking about build, share and run, for me the key word is share, because development has to be a team sport. It needs to be sharing. It needs to be kind and it needs to bring together people to do more effective work. Because that's what it's all about, doing effective work. If you think about zoom, it's a proxy for collaboration in terms of its value. So we've got all of these airlines and frankly, add up that their share that add up their total value. It's currently less than Zoom. So video conferencing has become so much of how we live now on a consumer basis. But certainly from a business to business perspective. I want to talk about how we live now. I want to think about like, what will come out all of this traumatic and it is incredibly traumatic time? I'd like to say I'm very privileged. I can work from home. So thank you to all the frontline workers that are out there that they're not in that position. But overall what I'm really thinking about, there's some things that will come out of this that will benefit us as a culture. Looking at cities like Paris, Milan, London, New York, putting a new cycling infrastructure, so that people can social distance and travel outside because they don't feel comfortable on public transport. I think sort of amazing widening pavements or we can't do that. All these cities have done it literally overnight. This sort of changes is exciting. And what does come off that like, oh there are some positive aspects of the current issues that we face. So I've got a conference or I've got a community that may and some of those, I've been working on. So Katie from HashiCorp and Carla from container solutions basically about, look, what will the world look like in developer relations? Can we have developer relations without the air miles? 'Cause developer advocates, they do too much travel ends up, you know, burning them out, develop relations. People don't like to say no. They may have bosses that say, you know, I was like, Oh that corporates went great. Now we're going to roll it out worldwide to 47 cities. That's stuff is terrible. It's terrible from a personal perspective, it's really terrible from an environmental perspective. We need to travel less. Virtual events are crushing it. Microsoft just at build, right? Normally that'd be just over 10,000 people, they had 245,000 plus registrations. 40,000 of them in the last day, right? Red Hat summit, 80,000 people, IBM think 90,000 people, GitHub Crushed it as well. Like this is a more inclusive way people can dip in. They can be from all around the world. I mentioned Nigeria and how fantastic it is. Very often Nigerian developers and advocates find it hard to get visas. Why should they be shut out of events? Events are going to start to become remote first because frankly, look at it, if you're turning in those kinds of numbers, and Microsoft was already doing great online events, but they absolutely nailed it. They're going to have to ask some serious questions about why everybody should get back on a plane again. So if you're going to do remote, you've got to be intentional about it. It's one thing I've learned some exciting about GitLab. GitLab's culture is amazing. Everything is documented, everything is public, everything is transparent. Think that really clear and if you look at their principles, everything, you can't have implicit collaboration models. Everything needs to be documented and explicit, so that anyone can work anywhere and they can still be part of the team. Remote first is where we're at now, Coinbase, Shopify, even Barkley says the not going to go back to having everybody in offices in the way they used to. This is a fundamental shift. And I think it's got significant implications for all industries, but definitely for software development. Here's the thing, the last 20 years were about distributed computing, microservices, the cloud, we've got pretty good at that. The next 20 years will be about distributed work. We can't have everybody living in San Francisco and London and Berlin. The talent is distributed, the talent is elsewhere. So how are we going to build tools? Who is going to scratch that itch to build tools to make them more effective? Who's building the next generation of apps, you are, thanks.

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity. >>Good morning cube land and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite here in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We are joined by Carl holes, our, he is the supervisor of infrastructure Shumaker loop and Kendrick based in Toledo, Ohio. Thank you so much for coming on the show tomorrow. So tell our viewers first of all a little bit about uh, she make her loop. So Schulich >>is a top 200 law firm in the U S we have seven locations across the country, most of the East coast and we serve as anything from litigation to environmental to legal and things like that. >>Okay. So you and you are the supervisor of infrastructure. >>Yeah, my role there is to make sure anything with plugs and switches keeps working, so. >>All right. And so Carl, tell us a little bit about, you said you've got multiple occasions once that span and to the lawyers tell you everything and how it must be. >>The lawyers definitely have a say in the way things work. We have most of the locations in Florida and the Carolinas and two in Ohio. Okay. >>Um, and you know, with the locations, you know, what are some of the business drivers that you're going on? When I talked to most companies, you know, there's the constant change. Is there M and a happening? Is it growth? What are some of the drivers of your business? >>Oh, for sure it's growth. You know, obviously as time goes on there's more and more cases, more and more legal things have to happen. Lawyers love documents, so we have to store documents, index amend, make sure that they're always available for their use. And then of course, as part of that too, there's, there's legals holds on things, you know, stuff the case that stretches over, you know, five, 10 years. We need to keep that data safe. Yeah. So I would, >>I think that the word compliance is one that you know, all too well. Exactly. Bring us in a little bit to them. Side is, so some of those, you know, what do you have to be concerned about? You know, how many petabytes exabytes of things in years >>I'll have to that. It depends on the kind of case it is and what it involves. Some, some cases, as long as you have the data in some form you're okay. Other cases the data can't change. So we have systems that might be a little older because they, it has to be as it was when we actually had the case come into us. Okay. That's challenging too. So data, when we talked to so many companies, it's, you know, how can I monetize data? How can I do that? Data has to be a slightly different role inside your organization. How, how's that thought of, >> we have to be careful obviously because conflict of interest, you know, we so have to keep data separate in some instances and internally, not everybody can see the same data because there is issues with privacy or hippo or you know, or so on and so forth that they can't see this stuff. So for us, we need to keep it safe more than monetize it. >>So as you said, the lawyers have a, have a big say in how things empower things happen. So how would you describe the approach and mindset of, of Chyulu toward technology and toward cloud-based and new kinds of, to, to store >>and keep data safe? We, our goal is to make sure things are always online. Um, so we kind of tend toward the more, the more tried and true methods of doing things, the bleeding edge doesn't always work for us. So, but we also can't afford to, to lag behind. So we need to find that balance in between somehow to keep things moving, but the same time make sure that things don't go down or offline fraternities. So protecting and backing up your data across a hybrid environment isn't easy. So Ty, and I know you, you are on a panel here at ignite about, uh, backup disasters and how to avoid them. So I'd love to have you talk a little bit about, about how you think about this and then, and how you interview vendors, vendors and decide what's the right solution for your show. >> Every different, I guess a practice inside of law firm has different ways of getting data. They like their programs this way or that way and they're all different. So the hard part for us is how to keep that data always available to them in different systems. So whatever we do has to encompass making sure these all, all these things work, you know, kind of as, as one. So we've used Cohesity to do backups, we've used Xero to do dr mixer always online. >>Okay. And how long have you been using those solutions? I, how did you reach the kind of those decisions? >>Those were brought in? Just as I joined the firm about a year and a half ago. Um, our vendor who we're using is very tight with Cohesity and Xero and said that might be a good idea. And the more I use them, the more I agree with that. And they're all good. >>So you're saying it's your, your CI, your channel partner channel that does, that. They're trusted, they provide your gear, advise you on the software. Because let's be honest, as time goes on, you can't know everything. So you need to somebody that you can trust to bring in and say, Hey, do it this way. Well, yeah, Carl, I mean, I don't know if you caught the day one keynote, but even those of us that watch the industry in DOE, it's, there's no way any of us could keep up at though. So that, that, that's really important. How do you make sure that you know that that's a trusted advisor? You know, what's, what's the kind of the give and take between them? >>I think a lot of that comes down to a gut feeling, right? I you, if you feel slimy when you meet somebody, you know, they don't have your best interests in mind and that's what you want. Not my best interest, but the interest of the firm and of the company. So once you have established those guidelines, you usually can trust what they're saying. And I guess every time you meet them too, you have to reevaluate is this still a good fit? >> So when you comes to backup and recovery, I'd love to hear more about this panel and how you and your colleagues came to conclusions about how here's some, here's some big ones and here's how you can avoid them. So I think for us it was just what worked and what didn't work. You know, we all, all three of us use this stuff day to day. So we found the pitfalls, we found what you should and shouldn't do. And when we share that with the, with the community, we get some good feedback on that. >>So Carl, a year and a half there, any, any specific advice that you'd share? People as to what you've learned? Say I hired pitfalls in there as you know, was it a configuration issue or something went wrong because we know the best intentions and best products out there, so you know, things can get in the way. Yeah, >>definitely. We've learned to keep support clothes. I mean, they're awesome. They know their stuff. There's some things we've had issues with that I wanted to do that it wasn't a good fit or we've ran into some bugs here and there, but they're really responsive and they'll put all the alpha specialists for you and weeks, you know, and things just end up working. >> Alright, so here at the conference, what are some of the conversations that you're having because you are in the legal industry and so not necessarily community college communicating all day with people in the high tech industry. So bring us inside a little, tell us about the conversations you're having, interesting people that you're meeting, things that are sparking your interest. >> It's neat because I've met some people through the panel I was on yesterday and they're asking questions that don't even title legal. You know, they have the same access as we do, but they are just either apply to manufacturing or applied to natural gas or whatever happens to be. Um, and then when you know, meetings from the vendors here, it's interesting too, you know, I'm an illegal mindset now and they say, Hey, what about this? And you go, Oh, that's some game changer. And you know, and all of a sudden you can apply it to your field. >>More sense. Yeah. How about this your first time attending Microsoft ignite? Give us a little bit your impressions, you know, uh, the, the, the good, the bad. And the interesting is it's really >>big. I walked through here Sunday night when when nobody was here. It's like, Oh, this isn't too bad. And then I think I walked 10 miles the first day getting places and it's usually pretty well laid out and unless there's beer or food and everybody kind of goes to it and it's hard to move around. But other than that I think it's pretty cool. So what are the kinds of things you're going to take back? As you said, you are sometimes talking to people who are in a completely different industry with you and they are saying things that spark your interest and spark new ideas. What are the kinds of things you're going to take back to shoe loop when you arrive back in total Toledo, we're trying to look at all these new buzzwords like on new, but like blockchain or AI and how they can help us do our jobs better and serve their attorneys better. Um, is there something that I haven't thought of that blockchain can, can do this >>for us and better than we're doing it now now. So Carl, one of the things we've noticed there, there's a real growth in some of the developer content here as an infrastructure person. And I'm curious your view on that, that that side of the world. >>That is not my strong suit. Obviously I came from a world where that was a big deal and I could learn some things. But as far as my background goes and learning about it, it's kinda over my head. Um, you know, I can get it behind this stuff, talk to automate processes and make things, you know better. But as far as the dev side, I'm kind of going, Hey, no, I know if I get this, but, but there is such a push here for citizens and for citizen developers and to sort of democratize this and say even you can do this, which is awesome and in a way because the more eyes have on something, the better they go. You know I can even if I don't understand something, I can ask the question, Hey, why is this work this way? You go, Oh it shouldn't work this way. >>Let's fix this and and make things better. You know. Anything more about kinda your firm's relationship with Microsoft? So many announcements here. Not, no, not sure if teams has used a in your environment. We are using Skype right now but we have way pushed to go to two teams. So that's going to be a big, big push for us in queue for this year and digging next year and then we're looking at moving to Azure at some point. Getting our stuff up there and making you know to be most effective, faster, better. How do you stay up to date with all of these new announcements and not just here at Microsoft, but even in the larger technology community. You can't stop learning. You can't stop reading. You know? You look at the like the slash dots of the world and you just keep looking at things and some things may make sense. >>Some things I'm like, Oh, that's kind of cool. I'll read it later. All of a sudden it goes, Oh, that's a big idea and we should look at this some more. But again, it's having those trusted people that you know or colleagues that say, Hey, I saw this. I saw that. Take a look at that suit. You think so? I know in your, in your off time, you are an officiant of a number of different sports. I'm curious to hear how you bring what you do as an officiant into your job at shoe loop and the similarities. The differences. In my help desk days, it was a lot easier because I could take the, the end user ratings a lot easier because I will hold nothing personal, but it's neat too. I mean, when you're an official, you have, there's a, there's a way things work. There's a, there's a set of rules you have to follow and, and it, and even anything that's technology based there, it's all logical progression of things. This is the way things work and not they blinders as much, but as much as you just follow the process, which makes this audience here. Great. Well thank you so much Carla, for having me. It was great having you on the show. Thank you guys. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage. Microsoft ignite.

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to the live coverage here in Mosconi North in San Francisco for IBM. Think this. The cubes coverage. I'm Jeffrey David. Launching a too great guest here. Carlos. Gavel, gavel. A chief date. Officer Clara, Columbia and Carlos. See? Good. Engage your manager. IBM data Science elite team a customer of IBM country around data science. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. So we'll hear the street, the street to shut down a i N E. Where's the big theme? Multi cloud. But it's all about the data everywhere. People trying to put end to end solutions together to solve real business problems. Date is at the heart of all this moving date around from cloud to cloud using. Aye, aye. And technology get insights out of that. So take a minute to explain your situation, but you got to try to do. >> Okay. Okay, Perfect. Right now, we're working out a lot about the business thing because we need to use the machine learning models or all the artificial intelligence toe. Take best decisions for the company. Way. We're working with Carlo in a charming mother in order to know how how come with a boy the customers left the company Because for us it's very important to maintain our our customer toe. Now, how they're how are the cables is from them. There are two facility intelligences is next selling way to do it that way. Have a lot of challenge about that because, you know, we have a lot of data, different systems, that they're running the data way need to put all the information together to run them to run the mother's. The team that Carlo is leaving right now is helping to us a lot because we WeII know how to handle that. We know howto clean the data when you have to do the right governess for the data on the IBM iniquity is very compromised with us in there in order to do that safely. That is one of the union that is very close to us right now. She was working a lot with my team in order to run the models. You saying she was doing a lot of four. I mean, over fight on right now we are trained to do it in over the system, running this park on DH that is they? They Good way that we are. We are thinking that is going to get the gold for us way Need to maintain our customers. >> So years the largest telecommunications piece Claro in Mexico for boys and home services. Is that segments you guys are targeting? Yeah, Yeah. Scope. Size of how big is that? >> Clarisa? Largest company in Colombia For telecommunication. We have maybe fifty million customers in Colombia. More than fifty percent of the market marketer also way have many maybe two point five millions off forms in Colombia. That is more than fifty percent of the customers for from services on. Do you know that it's a big challenge for us because the competitors are all the time. Tryinto take our customers on DH the charm or they'll have toe. How's the boy that and how to I hope to do their artificial intelligence to do it much learning. It's a very good way to do that. >> So classic problem and telecommunications is Charon, right? So it's a date. A problem? Yeah, but So how did it all come about? So these guys came to you? >> Yeah. They help The game does. We got together. We talked about the problem and in turn was at the top right. These guys have a ton of data, so what we did is the team got together. We have really the way to data sensibly team works is we really helped clients in three areas. It's all about the right skills, the right people, the right tools and then the right process. So we put together a team. We put together some agile approaches on what we're going to do on DH. Then we'd get started by spinning up in environment. We took some data and we took there. And there's a lot of data is terabytes of data. We took their user data way, took their use users usage data, which is like how many text, cellphone and then bill on day that we pulled all that together and environment. Then the data scientists alongside what Carlos is team really worked on the problem, and they addressed it with, you know, machine learning, obviously target. In turn, they tried a variety of models, But actually, boost ended up being one of the better approaches on DH. They came up with a pretty good accuracy about nineties ninety two. Percent precision on the model. Predicting unpredictable turn. Yeah. >> So what did you do with that? That >> that that is a very good question because the company is preparing to handle that. I have a funny history. I said today to the business people. Okay, these customers are going to leave the company. Andi, I forget about that on DH. Two months later, I was asking Okay, what happened? They say, Okay, your model is very good. All the customers goes, >> Oh, my God, What >> this company with that they weren't working with a with information. That is the reason that we're thinking that the good ways to fame for on the right toe the left because twist them which is therefore, pulls the purposes toe Montana where our customers And in that case, we lose fifty thousand customers because we didn't do nothing Where we are close in the circle, we are taking care about that prescriptive boys could have tto do it on. OK, maybe that is her name. Voice problem. We need to correct them to fix the problem in orderto avoid that. But the fetus first parties toe predict toe. Get any score for the charm on Tau handled that with people obviously working. Also at the root cause analysis because way need to charm, way, need to fix from their road, >> Carla. So walk us through the scope of, like, just the project, because this is a concern we see in the industry a lot of data. How do I attack it? What's the scoop? You just come in and just into a data lake. How do you get to the value? These insights quickly because, honestly, they're starving for insights would take us through that quick process. >> Well, you know, every every problems with different. We helped hundreds of clients in different ways. But this pig a problem. It was a big data problem because we knew we had a lot of data. They had a new environment, but some of the data wasn't there. So what we did was way spun up a separate environment. We pulled some of the big data in there. We also pulled some of the other data together on DH. We started to do analysis on that kind of separately in the cloud, which is a little different, but we're working now to push that down into their Duke Data Lake, because not all the data is there, but some of the data is there, and we want to use some of that >> computer that almost to audit. Almost figure out what you want, what you want to pull in first, absolutely tie into the business on the business side. What would you guys like waiting for the answers? Or was that some of the on your side of process? How did it go down? >> I'm thinking about our business way. We're talking a little bit about about that about their detective tow hundred that I see before data within. That is a very good solution for that because we need infested toe, have us in orderto get the answers because finally we have a question we have question quite by. The customers are leaving us. Andi. What is data on the data handed in the good in a good way with governor? Dance with data cleaning with the rhyme orders toe. Do that on DH Right now, our concern is Business Section a business offer Because because the solution for the companies that way always, the new problems are coming from the data >> started ten years ago, you probably didn't have a new cluster to solve this problem. Data was maybe maybe isn't a data warehouse that maybe it wasn't And you probably weren't chief data officer back then. You know that roll kind of didn't exist, so a lot has changed in the last ten years. My question is, do you first of all be adjusting your comment on that? But do you see a point in which you could now take remedial action or maybe even automate some of that remedial action using machine intelligence and that data cloud or however else you do it to actually take action on behalf of the brand before humans who are without even human involvement foresee a day? >> Yeah. So just a comment on your thought about the times I've been doing technology for twenty something years, and data science is something has been around, but it's kind of evolved in software development. My thought is, uh, you know, we have these rolls of data scientists, but a lot of the feature engineering Data prep does require traditional people that were devious. And now Dave engineers and variety of skills come together, and that's what we try to do in every project. Just add that comment. A ce faras predicted ahead of time. Like, I think you're trying to say what data? Help me understand >> you. You know, you've got a ninety three percent accuracy. Okay, So I presume you take that, You give it to the business businesses, Okay? Let's maybe, you know, reach out to them, maybe do a little incentive or you know what kind of action in the machines take action on behalf of your brand? Do you foresee a day >> so that my thought is for Clara, Columbia and Carlos? But but obviously this is to me. Remain is the predictive models we build will obviously be deployed. And then it would interact with their digital mobile applications. So in real time, it'll react for the customers. And then obviously, you know, you want to make sure that claro and company trust that and it's making accurate predictions. And that's where a lot more, you know, we have to do some model validation and evaluation of that so they can begin to trust those predictions. I think is where >> I want to get your thoughts on this because you're doing a lot of learnings here. So can you guys each taking minutes playing the key Learnings from this As you go through the process? Certainly in the business side, there's a big imperative to do this. You want to have a business outcome that keeps the users there. But what did you learn? What was some of the learnings? You guys gone from the project? >> They the most important learning front from the company that wass teen in the data that that sound funny, but waiting in an alley, garbage in garbage, out on DH that wass very, very important for other was one of the things that we learn that we need to put cleaning date over the system. Also, the government's many people forget about the governments of the governments of the data on DH. Right now, we're working again with IBM in our government's >> so data quality problem? Yeah, they fight it and you report in to your CEO or the CEO. Seo, your spear of the CIA is OK. That >> is it. That's on another funny history, because because the company the company is right now, I am working for planning. This is saying they were working for planning for the company. >> Business planning? >> Yeah, for business planning. I was coming for an engineer engineering on DH. Right now, I'm working for a planning on trying to make money for the company, and you know that it's an engineer thinking how to get more money for the company I was talking about. So on some kind of analysis ticks, that is us Partial Analytics on I want you seeing that in engineer to know how the network handling how the quality of the network on right now using the same software this acknowledge, to know which is the better point to do sales is is a good combination finally and working. Ralph of planning on my boss, the planning the planet is working for the CEO and I heard about different organizations. Somebody's in Financial City owes in financial or the video for it is different. That depends from the company. Right now, I'm working for planning how to handle things, to make more money for the company, how to tow hundred children. And it is interesting because all the knowledge that I have engineering is perfect to do it >> Well, I would argue that's the job of a CDO is to figure out how to make money with data. Are saying money. Yeah. Absolute number one. Anyway, start there. >> Yeah, The thing we always talked about is really proving value. It starts with that use case. Identify where the real value is and then waken. You know, technology could come in the in the development work after that. So I agree with hundred percent. >> Carlos. Thanks for coming in. Largest telecommunication in Colombia. Great. Great customer reference. Carlo thinking men to explain real quick in a plug in for your data science elite team. What do you guys do? How do you engage? What? Some of the projects you work on Grey >> out. So we were a team of about one hundred data scientists worldwide. We work side by side with clients. In our job is to really understand the problem from end and help in all areas from skills, tools and technique. And we won't prototype in a three agile sprints. We use an agile methodology about six to eight weeks and we tied. It developed a really We call it a proof of value. It's it's not a M v P just yet or or poc But at the end of the day we prove out that we could get a model. We can do some prediction. We get a certain accuracy and it's gonna add value to the >> guys. Just >> It's not a freebie. It actually sorry. I'm sorry. It's not for paint service. It's a freebie is no cough you've got. But I don't like to use >> free way. Don't charge, but >> But it's something that clients could take advantage of if they're interesting problem and maybe eventually going to do some business. >> If you the largest telecommunication provider in the country, to get a freebie and then three keys, You guys dig in because its practitioners, real practitioners with the right skills, working on problems that way. Claro, >> Colombia's team. They were amazing. In Colombia. We had a really good time. Six to eight weeks working on it. You know, a problem on those guys. All loved it, too. They were. They were. Before they knew it. They were coding and python. And are they ready? Knew a lot of this stuff, but they're digging in with the team and became well together. >> This is the secret to modernization of digital transformation, Having sales process is getting co creating together. Absolutely. Guys do a great job, and I think this is a trend will see more of. Of course, the cubes bring you live coverage here in San Francisco at Mosconi. Nor That's where I said it is. They're shutting down the streets for IBM. Think twenty here in San Francisco, more cube coverage after the short break right back.

live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvents 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services inhale and their ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone this the cube live day 3 coverage of Amazon Web Services AWS reinvent 2018 we're here with two cents Dave six years we've been covering Amazon every single reinvent since they've had this event except for the first year and you know we've been following AWS really since its inception one of my startup said I was trying to launch and didn't ever got going years ago and he went easy to launch was still command-line and so we know all about it but what's really exciting is the global expansion of Amazon Web Services the impact that not only the commercial business but the public sector government changing the global landscape and the person who I've written about many times on Forbes and unhooking angle Theresa Carlson she's the chief a public sector vice president of Amazon Web Services public sector public sector great to see you hi hi John I checked great to be here again as always so the global landscape mean public sector used to be this a we talk to us many times do this do that yeah the digital environment and software development growth is changing all industries including public sector he's been doing a great job leading the charge the CIA one of the most pivotal deals when I asked Andy jassie directly and my one-on-one with them that this proudest moments one of them is the CIA deal when I talked to the top execs in sales Carla and other people in Amazon they point to that seminal moment with a CIA deal happen and now you got the DoD a lot of good stuff yeah what's do how do you top that how do you raise the bar well you know it still feels like day one even with all that work in that effort and those customers kind of going back to go forward in 2013 when we won the CIA opportunity they are just an amazing customer the entire community is really growing but there's so much more at this point that we're doing outside of that work which is being additive around the world and as you've always said John that was kind of a kind of a pivotal deal but now we're seeing so many of our government customers we now have customers at a hundred and seventy four countries and I have teams on the ground in 28 countries so we're seeing a global mood but you know at my breakfast this week we talked a lot about one of the big changes I've seen in the last like 18 months is state and local government where we're seeing actually states making a big move California Arizona New York Ohio Virginia so we're starting to see those states really make big moves and really looking at applications and solutions that can change that citizen services engagement and I achieve in these state local governments aren't real I won't say their course they're funded but they're not like funded like a financial services sector but that's women money they got to be very efficient clouds a perfect opportunity for them because they can be more productive I do a lot of good things I can and there's 20 new governor's coming on this year so we've had a lot of elections lots of new governors lots of new local council members coming in but governor's a lot of times you'll see a big shift when a governor comes in and takes over or if there's one that stays in and maintains you'll see kind of that program I was just in Arizona a couple weeks ago and the governor of Arizona has a really big fish toward modernization and utilization of information technology and the CIO of the state of Arizona is like awesome they're doing all this work transformative work with the government and then I was at Arizona State University the same day where we just announced a cloud Innovation Center for smart cities and I went around their campus and it's amazing they're using IOT everywhere you can go in there football stadium and you can see the movement of the people how many seats are filled where the parking spaces are how much water's been used where Sparky is their their backside I've got to be Sparky which was fed but you're seeing these kind of things and all of that revs on AWS and they're doing all the analytics and they're gonna continue to do that one for efficiency and knowledge but to also to protect their students and citizens and make them safer through the knowledge of data analytics you know to John's point about you know funding and sometimes constricted funding at state and local levels and even sometimes the federal levels yeah we talked about this at the public sector summit I wonder if you could comment Amazon in the early days help startups compete with big companies it gave them equivalent resources it seems like the distance between public sector and commercial is closing because of the cloud they're able to take advantage of resources at lower cost that they weren't able to before it's definitely becoming the new normal in governments for sure and we are seeing that gap closing this year 2018 for me was a year that I saw kind of big moves to cloud because in the early days it was website hosting kind of dipping their toes in this year we're talking about massive systems that are being moved to the cloud you know big re-architecting and design and a lot of people say well why do they do that that costs money well the reason is because they may have to Rio architect and design but then they get all the benefits of cloud through the things that examples this week new types of storage new types of databases at data analytics IOT machine learning because in the old model they're kind of just stagnated with where they were with that application so we're seeing massive moves with very large applications so that's kind of cool to see our customers and public sector making those big moves and then the outputs the outcome for citizens tax payers agencies that's really the the value and sometimes that's harder to quantify or justify in public sector but over the long term it's it's going to make a huge difference in services and one of the things I now said the breakfast was our work and something called helping out the agents with that ATO process the authority to operate which is the big deal and it cost a lot of money a lot of times long time and processes and we've been working with companies like smartsheet which we helped them do this less than 90 days to get go plow so now working with our partners like Talos and Rackspace and our own model that's one of the things you're also gonna see check and Jon you're taking your knowledge of the process trying to shrink that down could time wise excessive forward to the partners yes to help them through the journey these fast move fast that kind of just keep it going and that's really the goal because they get very frustrated if they build an application that takes forever to get that security that authority to operate because they can't really they can't move out into full production unless that's completed and this could make or break these companies these contracts are so big oh yeah I mean it's significant and they want to get paid for what they're doing and the good work but they also want to see the outcome and the results yeah I gotta ask you what's new on the infrastructure side we were in Bahrain for the region announcement exciting expansion there you got new clouds gov cloud east yeah that's up and running no that's been running announced customers are in there they're doing their dr their coop running applications we're excited yes that's our second region based on a hundred and eighty five percent year-over-year growth of DEFCON region west so it's that been rare at reading I read an article that was on the web from general Keith Alexander he wrote an op-ed on the rationale that the government's taking in the looking at the cloud and looking at the military look at the benefits for the country around how to do cloud yes you guys are also competing for the jet idea which is now it's not a single source contract but they want to have one robust consistent environment yeah a big advantage new analytics so between general Keith Alexander story and then the the public statement around this was do is actually outlined benefits of staying with one cloud how is that going what how's that Jedi deal going well there's there's two points I'd like to make them this first of all we are really proud of DoD they're just continuing to me and they're sticking with their model and it's not slowing them down everything happening around Jedi so the one piece yes Jedi is out there and they need to complete this transaction but the second part is we're just we're it's not slowing us down to work with DoD in fact we've had great meetings with DoD customers this week and they're actually launching really amazing cloud workloads now what's going to be key for them is to have a platform that they can consistently develop and launch new mission applications very rapidly and because they were kind of behind they their model right now is to be able to take rapid advantage of cloud computing for those warriors there's those war fighters out in the field that we can really help every day so I think general Alexander is spot on the benefits of the cloud are going to really merit at DoD I have to say as an analyst you know you guys can't talk about these big deals but when companies you know competitors can test them information becomes public so in the case of CI a IBM contested the judge wheeler ruling was just awesome reading and it underscored Amazon's lead at the time yeah at Forrest IBM to go out and pay two billion dollars for software the recent Oracle can contestant and the GAO is ruling there gave a lot of insights I would recommend go reading it and my takeaway was the the DoD Pentagon said a single cloud is more secure it's going to be more agile and ultimately less costly so that's that decision was on a very strong foundation and we got insight that we never would have been able to get had they not tested well and remember one of the points we were just talking earlier was the authority to operate that that ability to go through the security and compliance to get it launched and if you throw a whole bunch of staff at an organization if they they're struggling with one model how are they gonna get a hundred models all at once so it's important for DoD that they have a framework that they can do live in real first of all as a technical person and an operating system which is kind of my background is that it makes total sense to have that cohesiveness but the FBI gave a talk at your breakfast on Tuesday morning Christene Halverson yeah she's amazing and she pointed out the problems that they're having keep up with the bad actors and she said quote we are FBI is in a data crisis yes and she pointed out all the bad things that happened in Vegas the Boston Marathon bombing and the time it took to put the puzzle pieces together was so long and Amazon shrinks that down if post-event that's hard imagine what the DoD is to do in real time so this is pointing to a new model it's a new era and on that well and we you know one of the themes was tech4good and if you look at the FBI example it's a perfect example of s helping them move faster to do their mission and if they continue to do what they've always done which is use old technologies that don't scale buying things that they may never use or being able to test and try quickly and effectively test Belfast recover and then use this data an FBI I will tell you it is brilliant how they're the name of this program sandcastle one Evan that they've used to actually do all this data and Linux and she talked about time to mission time to catch the bad guys time to share that analysis and data with other groups so that they could quickly disseminate and get to the heart of the matter and not sit there and say weight on it weight on this bad guy while we go over here and change time to value completely being that Amazon is on whether it's commercial or government I talk about values great you guys could have a short term opportunity to nail all these workloads but in the Amazon fashion there's always a wild card no I was so excited Dave and I interviewed Lockheed Martin yesterday yeah and this whole ground station thing is so cool because it's kind of like a Christopher Columbus moment yeah because the world isn't flat doesn't have an edge no it's wrong that lights can power everything there's spaces involved there's space company yes space force right around the corner yep you're in DC what's the excitement around all this what's going on we surprised a lot of with that announcement Lockheed Martin and DigitalGlobe we even had DigitalGlobe in with Andy when we talked about AWS ground station and Lockheed Martin verge and the benefit of this is two amazing companies coming together a tub yes that knows cloud analytics air storage and now we're taking a really hard problem with satellites and making it almost as a service as well as Lockheed doing their cube stats and making sure that there is analysis of every satellite that moves that all points in time with net with no disruption we're going to bring that all together for our customers for a mission that is so critical at every level of government research commercial entities and it's going to help them move fast and that is the key move very fast every mission leader you talk to you that has these kind of predators will say we have to move faster and that's our goal bringing commercial best practices I know you got a run we got less than a minute left but I want you to do a quick plug in for the work you're doing around the space in general you had a special breakout ibrehem yours public sector summit not going on in the space area that your involvement give it quick yeah so we will have it again this year winner first ever at the day before our public sector summit we had an Earth and space day and where we really brought together all these thought leaders on how do we take advantage of that commercial cloud services that are out there to help both this programs research Observatory in any way shape app data sets it went great we worked with NASA while we were here we actually had a little control center with that time so strip from NASA JPL where we literally sat and watched the Mars landing Mars insight which we were part of and so was Lockheed Martin and so his visual globe so that was a lot of fun so you'll see us continue to really expand our efforts in the satellite and space arena around the world with these partnership well you're super cool and relevant space is cool you're doing great relevant work with Amazon I wish we had more time to talk about all the mentoring you're doing with women you're doing tech4good so many great things going on I need to get you guys and all my public sector summits in 2019 we're going to have eight of them around the world and it was so fantastic having the Cuban Baja rain this year I mean it was really busy there and I think we got to see the level of innovation that's shaping up around the world with our customers well thanks to the leadership that you have in the Amazon as a company in the industry is changing the cube will be global and we might see cube regions soon if Lockheed Martin could do it the cube could be there and they have cube sets yes thank you for coming on theresa carlson making it happen really changing the game and raising the bar in public sector globally with cloud congratulations great to have you on the cube as always more cube covers Andy Jasmine coming up later in the program statements for day three coverage after this short break [Music]

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone! It's theCUBE's live coverage, day two, of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Keynotes, amazing announcements, great vibe here. Again, 52,000 people here at Amazon re:Invent, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, we're here again, 6th year, just an amazing amount of content, two sets Eron Kelly is the General Manager of the Enterprise Services Marketing Basically part of marketing for Lilac Groups a lot of the areas. Great to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for spending the time! >> It's great to be here John and Dave, I really appreciate it. >> Alright so, how hard is your job? (all men laugh) I mean we were just doing an analysis of Andy's keynote and there's so much to talk about you have so many things under your purview. You have a broad portfolio of Amazon services It's really crazy good for you guys, the business is going great, highly profitable How do you do it all? How do keep track of it? What's your favorite child? Tell us >> It's a great point, there's so much going on and the speed and the pace of innovation but it's exactly what builders are looking for, right? They want to be able to come to AWS and not have to compromise. Because they want to see every tool that they need for every job And so for me I have a pretty broad portfolio I've really been excited this week about a lot of our compute announcements, right? So our announcements around our new instance family with A1 based on some custom silicon AWS Graviton processor Really excited about that Bringing the Arm community to the Cloud for the first time, we're jazzed about that one. >> And that motivation there is lowering costs for Arm-based apps, right? >> It's really two-fold, right? It's bringing the Arm community to the cloud It's the first time we've got an Arm processor in a large Cloud provider, so giving them that scale-up, elasticity, pay-for-what-you-use kind of model but then the second thing is lowering costs for customers for scale-out workloads so things like web tiers containerized microservices and you know in the general purpose area customers, we think they can save up to 45% which is meaningful, so we're really excited about that. That's been a really neat announcement a neat project we've been working on for a while. I would also say in the area of Compute We've added 100GB networking to a couple of our Instance types. C5n based on Intel processors and that's really been the workhorse in the HPC community and now with 100 GB of networking we're going to be able to do even more processing, more power, more advanced scenarios there And it's kind of an interesting dialogue, right? The more data you have, the more compute you need and it creates this virtuous cycle and one of the gaps was networking, so bringing 100GB It really allows those Intel chips to run >> Well, Big Data guys are going to eat that up to, I would think I mean, the links between Big Data and HPC become clearer >> Exactly right. >> Talk about the latency thing Andy talked to me last Monday about this I had a long conversation with him about it Latency matters, you guys listen to customers. Networking, you mentioned a key part of the flywheel Compute storage networking obviously morphing with the Cloud while you guys are optimizing and raising the bar. How are you guys handling the latency question? Because this comes up a lot You got the On-premises piece now you guys are doing things in the Cloud How do you market that service? How do you handle the latency? Talk about the role of latency in the portfolio. >> There's a couple things in there The first one, what I would highlight is Latency within an HPC environment or a machine learning environment and so that's where again this 100GB networking has been really powerful. We've also announced a new networking feature or protocol, Elastic Fabric Adapter which actually allows you to go even faster now in some networking scenarios, which is particularly interesting, again, in HPC So we've really worked hard in reducing the latency throughout the data centers for these higher end compute scenarios. >> Well, you have the custom silicon I wanted to just take you through this because EC2 has always been great, but setting up an Instance could take 10 seconds. Lambda now you can do it in hundreds of milliseconds. By having the custom silicon, How does that impact the network stack? Because I would imagine that the performance gains on having kind of a custom silicon around EC2 and the Compute, would be a gamechanger for running things under the covers, for instance, like a Vmware or managing security boundaries issues, what's the... >> So we made these investments a few years ago with the Nitro system, Where we took a look at the current Instance environment and said hey if we can offload some of that computer networking to a purpose-built chips on those cards we can actually free up more capacity for those processors to run faster and give you more value basically for each Instance type. So that was part of the beginning of Annapurna Labs and the Nitro system was offloading this networking into those custom built chips. That's the start and then what we've done is the Nitro system has allowed us to innovate much faster So we've added three times more Instances this year than last year because we're building on the Nitro system Graviton processor is just one more example We've added new processors from AMD And of course we've continued to advance with our Intel chip set as well. >> Talk about, I just want to just change gears for a bit Because you're in product marketing Executive General Manager Andy talks about the new way the culture at Amazon Old guard, new guard... Traditional product marketing, you can take a product you can bring it to market, waterfall it out at the beach and then you do all the activities How do you raise the bar in your job where you got to go out and take not just products, this is services now so you have a series of, a lot of services How does that change how you do product marketing? And how's that different from people who might not know how you guys operate? Talk a little about the culture of product marketing at Amazon. >> Sure, yeah. So I would say first and foremost it's all about education, right? So we really want to make sure that whenever where there's a new service that comes out we're super clear on what does it do what is the benefit and how can customers take advantage of it. And we're trying to position it in a way We like to say internally, sort of a non-technical CIO can understand So whenever you look at a new service You look at our detail pages. We put a tremendous amount of rigor and clarity We make it very simple, make the value pop clear I think the second thing we're starting to do and we're seeing it reflected in our products as well Is how can we tell more aggregated stories? So today during the Keynote, You saw Andy talk about abstractions, right? And one of the first ones he mentioned was Control Tower, which is one of my products So I got a little passionate around it. But what's interesting about that is that customers are coming to us and saying OK, I love the AWS, I love all these tools I love the granularity of managing things at a certain level and setting policies at a certain level But you guys have thousands, millions of customers running AWS, what's the right way to set up my environment? Can you give me a blueprint to do it? To set it up and run it in a very secure and compliant way. So Control Tower is a great example of a both a service that helps you do that as well as a marketing message that says Hey, let's look at this now in totality Let's you set up these environments faster based on best practices and now you can control in a much easier way. >> So you're basically trying to simplify the message so it's not speeds and feeds >> Well, what I would say is we want to simplify the message so that everyone can understand but we don't want to lose track of those builders those tinkerers that get in there, they want the speeds and feeds, they want the nobs and part of their differentiation as a developer is understanding all the details So we want to have both. >> It's also trying to help people figure out what to use where. As your portfolio grows and grows and grows the complexity becomes amazing for some people And Tailgate helped me figure out mapping to my workload, what to use where what's the best cost solution sometimes it's hard to figure that stuff out, isn't it? >> Yeah, well, it's again, it's this balance between We want to be able to provide the right tool for the right job I think Andy had a nice analogy today in the Keynote Where he talked about building fixing a house with just a hammer, right? And instead you're going to want to have that right tool for that right job And so part of our job in Product Marketing is making it very clear When do I use this particular Instance type versus this versus this? What are the trade-offs? And that's a key part of our job. >> And that resonates with people because there's a lot of redundancy in tools, too in the marketplace, people, a lot of them have the same tool the same hammer and you guys have a variety of services. So the question I got to ask you though As you look at the services and Amazon's role here at the event How would you summarize what's going on here? Because there's so much, Andy had a slide up there that said "Signal from the noise" and that's our phrase Extracting the signal from the noise which is kind of fun, but you have so much signal this noise and there's too much signal how would you encapsulate, for someone watching, what is happening this year? Where is Amazon for customers? What's the positioning? How should they think about, you mention builders? How would you summarize what the action is going on here? >> Right, so I would talk about it like this First and foremost, I would say we're adding more capability and building the broadest and deepest platform so that builders can always, they never have to compromise they always can find the right tool they need for the right job. So first and foremost, that speed of innovation that pace of innovation is continued and if there was one message that people should take away is Wow! They are still innovating like crazy they have an amazing amount of technology and so I don't have to compromise when it comes to datalinks. So that's kind of the first main message. Then I think the second thing I would say which kind of follows on that is OK but we also recognize that we've got a lot of services and now we need to start to build some services that bring these together and again Control Tower is a great example of that Lake Foundation is a great example of that for datalinks. And so that's sort of the second thing we are starting to create services that are abstraction layers that bring together a lot of the details to solve very specific problems. The third thrust that I would highlight is just the amazing focus around machine learning and AI and just how that has been such a key investment area for us and such a key ask for our customers and our mission there is to just democratize it. We want every builder to able to bring machine learning and add it to their solutions. And the number of services you saw announced today in the keynote as well as some earlier this week and last week just shows that our commitment and focus on that >> And extending EC2 to support some of that stuff >> Exactly right >> And the training and the like >> I'm a Star Trek fan so I always go to Scotty Scotty, more power! You guys are bringing more power to the table with each Compute and these abstractions. I want to get your thoughts on something that I talked with Andy about in depth last week before the show, and we were riffing on this notion of a new kind of Developer emerging and he talked about in the keynote, a new persona of developer, A new kind of developer is emerging. And he also kind of talked about net new workloads I wrote about it in my stories on SiliconANGLE in the forums about it, which is this all this goodness going on at the abstraction layer with a lot of horsepower enabling things that were hard to do. AI's a great example AI's been around since I was in college in the 80's and 90's and now it's rose up with power What are some of those persona developers look like? How do you look at that net new workloads? What's your reaction to that? Because this seems to be a big trend that's not your old school developer banging out code now there's OpenSource communities, we got that but in the working day and life of companies people are building apps. What's this new persona developer look like? >> Well, there's different personalities, right? There's the core tinkerer like you talked about there's now the data scientist that's coming in and taking advantage of these machine learning tools. You have kind of a cloud administrator that's kind of trying to look across everything and they want to build as well, right? They don't just want to sit there and manage the dashboards, they want to build as well and so we're seeing that in some of those personas. of course, app developers is another big part of it. >> Now you could talk to Firecracker too, right? >> We could talk a little bit, yeah >> So I met with Adrian yesterday and of course people used to poke at Amazon a lot hey, what about Open-source, you guys giving back to Open-source? And so Firecracker explain that and sort of what you guys are doing there and specifically in Open-source? >> So that's a great example of where we had some technology, and what Firecracker is it's a container for microservices that can run in a non-virtualized environment and we've used it as the underpinning for Lambda and Fargate And we looked at it and we said you know what? We want more people to be able to take advantage of this because it's about saving money it's about improving security. And so we decided to open-source it. And so that was one of our announcements on Monday was open-sourcing Firecracker and making it available to the community and so we're really excited about it. >> One of the things I want to ask you as we wrap up here, first of all great job on all the work you've done at Amazon impressive to see the level of services >> Thank you! That you guys are announcing and it's become a competitive advantage and you've got a great trajectory a lot of learnings and as Andy says there's time compression for experience and time which is good for a competitive strategy but as you look forward to 2019 What's your plan? What are your goals? How are you going to raise the bar? The term you guys use a lot. What's your goals? What are you trying to accomplish? >> You know the number one thing that we spend our time on is listening to customers and saying what's next? What do you need next, right? 90% of our innovation comes from customer input and so now we got a new wave of services we're introducing we're going to spend time with customers they're going to give us feedback we're going to make those services better and then we're going to find new places where they want us to go so next year is going to be just as exciting as this year and next year when I see you guys here we're going to be talking about a whole new wave of things coming out, it's been fun. >> You're certainly running hard and the other thing I've noticed in learning how Amazon works and getting deeper under the covers there you got a growing field, great professional services and a sales force that is not trying to grab the wallet from the customer you guys have a long game perspective >> That's right >> Carla, had a great conversation with her about this you have to service that How are you going to enable these guys You mentioned education earlier this is a big part of your plan, right? The integration with the field how does that work? You going to provide the messaging all the tools...how..cuz that's grow you've got to service that What's your perspective on the field >> Oh for sure, you're highlighting my Q1 goals right now It's really important to dial up that connection because as we get more and more services our field sellers, what's great about our field teams is that they're so aligned to customer needs So they don't carry specific quotas on individual products and things like that they're really focused on hey, what do ya need? And how can use the full portfolio to help you out? And so part of our challenge as a product marketer is not only educating customers on our products but educating the field on our products and which ones are most viable for which scenario and so that's a big part of our focus as well within the product marketing function is hey how do we really nail these scenarios very crisp, very compelling both for the customer and field seller to say ooh I saw that pattern in a customer! Let me go bring this technology forward and talk to them about it, so really excited about next year and you hit on something else that I think is really important which is this long term view, is our sales teams have always taken a long term view with customers they're not sitting there at the end of the Quarter trying to, you know, close the deal it's all about that long term view And it's allowed us to make some of these investments we've had, we've made >> You guys also use your own technology too I noticed a lot of the different groups You've got all the goodness of Cloud. You got to use some of that tech You've probably got some machine learning waiting around the AI bots and all kinds of cool tools you're integrating in dog-fooding or what do they call it? >> I mean, the reason why we're able to add so many services every year is that we build on our own platform, right? So you can have a very small team we talk about the two pizza team A very small team is able to build these services because they use AWS and in its entirety. And so it's very very exciting as these things get connected Like last week we talked about a predictive auto-scaling, so one of the features Auto-scaling's been a pretty popular feature over the years where people can scale up and scale down a large fleet of EC2 Instances but now we've added machine learning to that where it will now predict when the scaling should happen. So it allows you to scale up your EC2 Instances ahead of time based on historical patterns. So there's ML coming into everything we do. >> And server-less is booming too you know, that's going to be a big part of your focus by the way, you mention the Fleets I love this, we haven't talked about it much on theCUBE, but this notion of fleets is pretty powerful Having just a bunch of fleets of servers ready to go >> Ready to go and being able to manage across the different pricing models is also very, very powerful. I want to really ramp up very very quickly take advantage of those spot instances in those moments with really big cost savings as well as ramp back down >> Hey, keep adding functionality keep removing all the barriers lowering the price, making it high performance and I love that business model a lot of companies don't have that so Congratulations! >> You know, we just always want to add more we want to give customers more tools so they can have the right tool for the right job we want to give them the most powerful platform so they can do the highest end things as well as give them scenarios where hey, it's a little bit lower cost and it's for smaller workloads we don't want to overpay and be over-provisioned that's a key part of our strategy. >> I want it all and I want it now >> That's right! >> Well, you did a good job on the messaging Andy wants to mention builders and right tool for the job I think there's a drinking game going on on that he mentioned multiple times Congratulations Eron Kelly, Thank you! >> Thanks John and Dave, Really appreciate your time on theCUBE. >> General Manager Amazon Product Marketing here inside theCUBE, breaking down what's going on, what's his goals how Amazon keeps up with the pace Good insight I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. 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- [Announcer] Live, from New York, it's theCUBE. Covering theCUBE New York City 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media, and its ecosystem partners. - Hello everyone, welcome back to CUBE NYC. This is a CUBE special presentation of something that we've done now for the past couple of years. IBM has sponsored an influencer panel on some of the hottest topics in the industry, and of course, there's no hotter topic right now than AI. So, we've got nine of the top influencers in the AI space, and we're in Hell's Kitchen, and it's going to get hot in here. (laughing) And these guys, we're going to cover the gamut. So, first of all, folks, thanks so much for joining us today, really, as John said earlier, we love the collaboration with you all, and we'll definitely see you on social after the fact. I'm Dave Vellante, with my cohost for this session, Peter Burris, and again, thank you to IBM for sponsoring this and organizing this. IBM has a big event down here, in conjunction with Strata, called Change the Game, Winning with AI. We run theCUBE NYC, we've been here all week. So, here's the format. I'm going to kick it off, and then we'll see where it goes. So, I'm going to introduce each of the panelists, and then ask you guys to answer a question, I'm sorry, first, tell us a little bit about yourself, briefly, and then answer one of the following questions. Two big themes that have come up this week. One has been, because this is our ninth year covering what used to be Hadoop World, which kind of morphed into big data. Question is, AI, big data, same wine, new bottle? Or is it really substantive, and driving business value? So, that's one question to ponder. The other one is, you've heard the term, the phrase, data is the new oil. Is data really the new oil? Wonder what you think about that? Okay, so, Chris Penn, let's start with you. Chris is cofounder of Trust Insight, long time CUBE alum, and friend. Thanks for coming on. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and then pick one of those questions. - Sure, we're a data science consulting firm. We're an IBM business partner. When it comes to "data is the new oil," I love that expression because it's completely accurate. Crude oil is useless, you have to extract it out of the ground, refine it, and then bring it to distribution. Data is the same way, where you have to have developers and data architects get the data out. You need data scientists and tools, like Watson Studio, to refine it, and then you need to put it into production, and that's where marketing technologists, technologists, business analytics folks, and tools like Watson Machine Learning help bring the data and make it useful. - Okay, great, thank you. Tony Flath is a tech and media consultant, focus on cloud and cyber security, welcome. - Thank you. - Tell us a little bit about yourself and your thoughts on one of those questions. - Sure thing, well, thanks so much for having us on this show, really appreciate it. My background is in cloud, cyber security, and certainly in emerging tech with artificial intelligence. Certainly touched it from a cyber security play, how you can use machine learning, machine control, for better controlling security across the gamut. But I'll touch on your question about wine, is it a new bottle, new wine? Where does this come from, from artificial intelligence? And I really see it as a whole new wine that is coming along. When you look at emerging technology, and you look at all the deep learning that's happening, it's going just beyond being able to machine learn and know what's happening, it's making some meaning to that data. And things are being done with that data, from robotics, from automation, from all kinds of different things, where we're at a point in society where data, our technology is getting beyond us. Prior to this, it's always been command and control. You control data from a keyboard. Well, this is passing us. So, my passion and perspective on this is, the humanization of it, of IT. How do you ensure that people are in that process, right? - Excellent, and we're going to come back and talk about that. - Thanks so much. - Carla Gentry, @DataNerd? Great to see you live, as opposed to just in the ether on Twitter. Data scientist, and owner of Analytical Solution. Welcome, your thoughts? - Thank you for having us. Mine is, is data the new oil? And I'd like to rephrase that is, data equals human lives. So, with all the other artificial intelligence and everything that's going on, and all the algorithms and models that's being created, we have to think about things being biased, being fair, and understand that this data has impacts on people's lives. - Great. Steve Ardire, my paisan. - Paisan. - AI startup adviser, welcome, thanks for coming to theCUBE. - Thanks Dave. So, uh, my first career was geology, and I view AI as the new oil, but data is the new oil, but AI is the refinery. I've used that many times before. In fact, really, I've moved from just AI to augmented intelligence. So, augmented intelligence is really the way forward. This was a presentation I gave at IBM Think last spring, has almost 100,000 impressions right now, and the fundamental reason why is machines can attend to vastly more information than humans, but you still need humans in the loop, and we can talk about what they're bringing in terms of common sense reasoning, because big data does the who, what, when, and where, but not the why, and why is really the Holy Grail for causal analysis and reasoning. - Excellent, Bob Hayes, Business Over Broadway, welcome, great to see you again. - Thanks for having me. So, my background is in psychology, industrial psychology, and I'm interested in things like customer experience, data science, machine learning, so forth. And I'll answer the question around big data versus AI. And I think there's other terms we could talk about, big data, data science, machine learning, AI. And to me, it's kind of all the same. It's always been about analytics, and getting value from your data, big, small, what have you. And there's subtle differences among those terms. Machine learning is just about making a prediction, and knowing if things are classified correctly. Data science is more about understanding why things work, and understanding maybe the ethics behind it, what variables are predicting that outcome. But still, it's all the same thing, it's all about using data in a way that we can get value from that, as a society, in residences. - Excellent, thank you. Theo Lau, founder of Unconventional Ventures. What's your story? - Yeah, so, my background is driving technology innovation. So, together with my partner, what our work does is we work with organizations to try to help them leverage technology to drive systematic financial wellness. We connect founders, startup founders, with funders, we help them get money in the ecosystem. We also work with them to look at, how do we leverage emerging technology to do something good for the society. So, very much on point to what Bob was saying about. So when I look at AI, it is not new, right, it's been around for quite a while. But what's different is the amount of technological power that we have allow us to do so much more than what we were able to do before. And so, what my mantra is, great ideas can come from anywhere in the society, but it's our job to be able to leverage technology to shine a spotlight on people who can use this to do something different, to help seniors in our country to do better in their financial planning. - Okay, so, in your mind, it's not just a same wine, new bottle, it's more substantive than that. - [Theo] It's more substantive, it's a much better bottle. - Karen Lopez, senior project manager for Architect InfoAdvisors, welcome. - Thank you. So, I'm DataChick on twitter, and so that kind of tells my focus is that I'm here, I also call myself a data evangelist, and that means I'm there at organizations helping stand up for the data, because to me, that's the proxy for standing up for the people, and the places and the events that that data describes. That means I have a focus on security, data privacy and protection as well. And I'm going to kind of combine your two questions about whether data is the new wine bottle, I think is the combination. Oh, see, now I'm talking about alcohol. (laughing) But anyway, you know, all analogies are imperfect, so whether we say it's the new wine, or, you know, same wine, or whether it's oil, is that the analogy's good for both of them, but unlike oil, the amount of data's just growing like crazy, and the oil, we know at some point, I kind of doubt that we're going to hit peak data where we have not enough data, like we're going to do with oil. But that says to me that, how did we get here with big data, with machine learning and AI? And from my point of view, as someone who's been focused on data for 35 years, we have hit this perfect storm of open source technologies, cloud architectures and cloud services, data innovation, that if we didn't have those, we wouldn't be talking about large machine learning and deep learning-type things. So, because we have all these things coming together at the same time, we're now at explosions of data, which means we also have to protect them, and protect the people from doing harm with data, we need to do data for good things, and all of that. - Great, definite differences, we're not running out of data, data's like the terrible tribbles. (laughing) - Yes, but it's very cuddly, data is. - Yeah, cuddly data. Mark Lynd, founder of Relevant Track? - That's right. - I like the name. What's your story? - Well, thank you, and it actually plays into what my interest is. It's mainly around AI in enterprise operations and cyber security. You know, these teams that are in enterprise operations both, it can be sales, marketing, all the way through the organization, as well as cyber security, they're often under-sourced. And they need, what Steve pointed out, they need augmented intelligence, they need to take AI, the big data, all the information they have, and make use of that in a way where they're able to, even though they're under-sourced, make some use and some value for the organization, you know, make better use of the resources they have to grow and support the strategic goals of the organization. And oftentimes, when you get to budgeting, it doesn't really align, you know, you're short people, you're short time, but the data continues to grow, as Karen pointed out. So, when you take those together, using AI to augment, provided augmented intelligence, to help them get through that data, make real tangible decisions based on information versus just raw data, especially around cyber security, which is a big hit right now, is really a great place to be, and there's a lot of stuff going on, and a lot of exciting stuff in that area. - Great, thank you. Kevin L. Jackson, author and founder of GovCloud. GovCloud, that's big. - Yeah, GovCloud Network. Thank you very much for having me on the show. Up and working on cloud computing, initially in the federal government, with the intelligence community, as they adopted cloud computing for a lot of the nation's major missions. And what has happened is now I'm working a lot with commercial organizations and with the security of that data. And I'm going to sort of, on your questions, piggyback on Karen. There was a time when you would get a couple of bottles of wine, and they would come in, and you would savor that wine, and sip it, and it would take a few days to get through it, and you would enjoy it. The problem now is that you don't get a couple of bottles of wine into your house, you get two or three tankers of data. So, it's not that it's a new wine, you're just getting a lot of it. And the infrastructures that you need, before you could have a couple of computers, and a couple of people, now you need cloud, you need automated infrastructures, you need huge capabilities, and artificial intelligence and AI, it's what we can use as the tool on top of these huge infrastructures to drink that, you know. - Fire hose of wine. - Fire hose of wine. (laughs) - Everybody's having a good time. - Everybody's having a great time. (laughs) - Yeah, things are booming right now. Excellent, well, thank you all for those intros. Peter, I want to ask you a question. So, I heard there's some similarities and some definite differences with regard to data being the new oil. You have a perspective on this, and I wonder if you could inject it into the conversation. - Sure, so, the perspective that we take in a lot of conversations, a lot of folks here in theCUBE, what we've learned, and I'll kind of answer both questions a little bit. First off, on the question of data as the new oil, we definitely think that data is the new asset that business is going to be built on, in fact, our perspective is that there really is a difference between business and digital business, and that difference is data as an asset. And if you want to understand data transformation, you understand the degree to which businesses reinstitutionalizing work, reorganizing its people, reestablishing its mission around what you can do with data as an asset. The difference between data and oil is that oil still follows the economics of scarcity. Data is one of those things, you can copy it, you can share it, you can easily corrupt it, you can mess it up, you can do all kinds of awful things with it if you're not careful. And it's that core fundamental proposition that as an asset, when we think about cyber security, we think, in many respects, that is the approach to how we can go about privatizing data so that we can predict who's actually going to be able to appropriate returns on it. So, it's a good analogy, but as you said, it's not entirely perfect, but it's not perfect in a really fundamental way. It's not following the laws of scarcity, and that has an enormous effect. - In other words, I could put oil in my car, or I could put oil in my house, but I can't put the same oil in both. - Can't put it in both places. And now, the issue of the wine, I think it's, we think that it is, in fact, it is a new wine, and very simple abstraction, or generalization we come up with is the issue of agency. That analytics has historically not taken on agency, it hasn't acted on behalf of the brand. AI is going to act on behalf of the brand. Now, you're going to need both of them, you can't separate them. - A lot of implications there in terms of bias. - Absolutely. - In terms of privacy. You have a thought, here, Chris? - Well, the scarcity is our compute power, and our ability for us to process it. I mean, it's the same as oil, there's a ton of oil under the ground, right, we can't get to it as efficiently, or without severe environmental consequences to use it. Yeah, when you use it, it's transformed, but our scarcity is compute power, and our ability to use it intelligently. - Or even when you find it. I have data, I can apply it to six different applications, I have oil, I can apply it to one, and that's going to matter in how we think about work. - But one thing I'd like to add, sort of, you're talking about data as an asset. The issue we're having right now is we're trying to learn how to manage that asset. Artificial intelligence is a way of managing that asset, and that's important if you're going to use and leverage big data. - Yeah, but see, everybody's talking about the quantity, the quantity, it's not always the quantity. You know, we can have just oodles and oodles of data, but if it's not clean data, if it's not alphanumeric data, which is what's needed for machine learning. So, having lots of data is great, but you have to think about the signal versus the noise. So, sometimes you get so much data, you're looking at over-fitting, sometimes you get so much data, you're looking at biases within the data. So, it's not the amount of data, it's the, now that we have all of this data, making sure that we look at relevant data, to make sure we look at clean data. - One more thought, and we have a lot to cover, I want to get inside your big brain. - I was just thinking about it from a cyber security perspective, one of my customers, they were looking at the data that just comes from the perimeter, your firewalls, routers, all of that, and then not even looking internally, just the perimeter alone, and the amount of data being pulled off of those. And then trying to correlate that data so it makes some type of business sense, or they can determine if there's incidents that may happen, and take a predictive action, or threats that might be there because they haven't taken a certain action prior, it's overwhelming to them. So, having AI now, to be able to go through the logs to look at, and there's so many different types of data that come to those logs, but being able to pull that information, as well as looking at end points, and all that, and people's houses, which are an extension of the network oftentimes, it's an amazing amount of data, and they're only looking at a small portion today because they know, there's not enough resources, there's not enough trained people to do all that work. So, AI is doing a wonderful way of doing that. And some of the tools now are starting to mature and be sophisticated enough where they provide that augmented intelligence that Steve talked about earlier. - So, it's complicated. There's infrastructure, there's security, there's a lot of software, there's skills, and on and on. At IBM Think this year, Ginni Rometty talked about, there were a couple of themes, one was augmented intelligence, that was something that was clear. She also talked a lot about privacy, and you own your data, etc. One of the things that struck me was her discussion about incumbent disruptors. So, if you look at the top five companies, roughly, Facebook with fake news has dropped down a little bit, but top five companies in terms of market cap in the US. They're data companies, all right. Apple just hit a trillion, Amazon, Google, etc. How do those incumbents close the gap? Is that concept of incumbent disruptors actually something that is being put into practice? I mean, you guys work with a lot of practitioners. How are they going to close that gap with the data haves, meaning data at their core of their business, versus the data have-nots, it's not that they don't have a lot of data, but it's in silos, it's hard to get to? - Yeah, I got one more thing, so, you know, these companies, and whoever's going to be big next is, you have a digital persona, whether you want it or not. So, if you live in a farm out in the middle of Oklahoma, you still have a digital persona, people are collecting data on you, they're putting profiles of you, and the big companies know about you, and people that first interact with you, they're going to know that you have this digital persona. Personal AI, when AI from these companies could be used simply and easily, from a personal deal, to fill in those gaps, and to have a digital persona that supports your family, your growth, both personal and professional growth, and those type of things, there's a lot of applications for AI on a personal, enterprise, even small business, that have not been done yet, but the data is being collected now. So, you talk about the oil, the oil is being built right now, lots, and lots, and lots of it. It's the applications to use that, and turn that into something personally, professionally, educationally, powerful, that's what's missing. But it's coming. - Thank you, so, I'll add to that, and in answer to your question you raised. So, one example we always used in banking is, if you look at the big banks, right, and then you look at from a consumer perspective, and there's a lot of talk about Amazon being a bank. But the thing is, Amazon doesn't need to be a bank, they provide banking services, from a consumer perspective they don't really care if you're a bank or you're not a bank, but what's different between Amazon and some of the banks is that Amazon, like you say, has a lot of data, and they know how to make use of the data to offer something as relevant that consumers want. Whereas banks, they have a lot of data, but they're all silos, right. So, it's not just a matter of whether or not you have the data, it's also, can you actually access it and make something useful out of it so that you can create something that consumers want? Because otherwise, you're just a pipe. - Totally agree, like, when you look at it from a perspective of, there's a lot of terms out there, digital transformation is thrown out so much, right, and go to cloud, and you migrate to cloud, and you're going to take everything over, but really, when you look at it, and you both touched on it, it's the economics. You have to look at the data from an economics perspective, and how do you make some kind of way to take this data meaningful to your customers, that's going to work effectively for them, that they're going to drive? So, when you look at the big, big cloud providers, I think the push in things that's going to happen in the next few years is there's just going to be a bigger migration to public cloud. So then, between those, they have to differentiate themselves. Obvious is artificial intelligence, in a way that makes it easy to aggregate data from across platforms, to aggregate data from multi-cloud, effectively. To use that data in a meaningful way that's going to drive, not only better decisions for your business, and better outcomes, but drives our opportunities for customers, drives opportunities for employees and how they work. We're at a really interesting point in technology where we get to tell technology what to do. It's going beyond us, it's no longer what we're telling it to do, it's going to go beyond us. So, how we effectively manage that is going to be where we see that data flow, and those big five or big four, really take that to the next level. - Now, one of the things that Ginni Rometty said was, I forget the exact step, but it was like, 80% of the data, is not searchable. Kind of implying that it's sitting somewhere behind a firewall, presumably on somebody's premises. So, it was kind of interesting. You're talking about, certainly, a lot of momentum for public cloud, but at the same time, a lot of data is going to stay where it is. - Yeah, we're assuming that a lot of this data is just sitting there, available and ready, and we look at the desperate, or disparate kind of database situation, where you have 29 databases, and two of them have unique quantifiers that tie together, and the rest of them don't. So, there's nothing that you can do with that data. So, artificial intelligence is just that, it's artificial intelligence, so, they know, that's machine learning, that's natural language, that's classification, there's a lot of different parts of that that are moving, but we also have to have IT, good data infrastructure, master data management, compliance, there's so many moving parts to this, that it's not just about the data anymore. - I want to ask Steve to chime in here, go ahead. - Yeah, so, we also have to change the mentality that it's not just enterprise data. There's data on the web, the biggest thing is Internet of Things, the amount of sensor data will make the current data look like chump change. So, data is moving faster, okay. And this is where the sophistication of machine learning needs to kick in, going from just mostly supervised-learning today, to unsupervised learning. And in order to really get into, as I said, big data, and credible AI does the who, what, where, when, and how, but not the why. And this is really the Holy Grail to crack, and it's actually under a new moniker, it's called explainable AI, because it moves beyond just correlation into root cause analysis. Once we have that, then you have the means to be able to tap into augmented intelligence, where humans are working with the machines. - Karen, please. - Yeah, so, one of the things, like what Carla was saying, and what a lot of us had said, I like to think of the advent of ML technologies and AI are going to help me as a data architect to love my data better, right? So, that includes protecting it, but also, when you say that 80% of the data is unsearchable, it's not just an access problem, it's that no one knows what it was, what the sovereignty was, what the metadata was, what the quality was, or why there's huge anomalies in it. So, my favorite story about this is, in the 1980s, about, I forget the exact number, but like, 8 million children disappeared out of the US in April, at April 15th. And that was when the IRS enacted a rule that, in order to have a dependent, a deduction for a dependent on your tax returns, they had to have a valid social security number, and people who had accidentally miscounted their children and over-claimed them, (laughter) over the years them, stopped doing that. Well, some days it does feel like you have eight children running around. (laughter) - Agreed. - When, when that rule came about, literally, and they're not all children, because they're dependents, but literally millions of children disappeared off the face of the earth in April, but if you were doing analytics, or AI and ML, and you don't know that this anomaly happened, I can imagine in a hundred years, someone is saying some catastrophic event happened in April, 1983. (laughter) And what caused that, was it healthcare? Was it a meteor? Was it the clown attacking them? - That's where I was going. - Right. So, those are really important things that I want to use AI and ML to help me, not only document and capture that stuff, but to provide that information to the people, the data scientists and the analysts that are using the data. - Great story, thank you. Bob, you got a thought? You got the mic, go, jump in here. - Well, yeah, I do have a thought, actually. I was talking about, what Karen was talking about. I think it's really important that, not only that we understand AI, and machine learning, and data science, but that the regular folks and companies understand that, at the basic level. Because those are the people who will ask the questions, or who know what questions to ask of the data. And if they don't have the tools, and the knowledge of how to get access to that data, or even how to pose a question, then that data is going to be less valuable, I think, to companies. And the more that everybody knows about data, even people in congress. Remember when Zuckerberg talked about? (laughter) - That was scary. - How do you make money? It's like, we all know this. But, we need to educate the masses on just basic data analytics. - We could have an hour-long panel on that. - Yeah, absolutely. - Peter, you and I were talking about, we had a couple of questions, sort of, how far can we take artificial intelligence? How far should we? You know, so that brings in to the conversation of ethics, and bias, why don't you pick it up? - Yeah, so, one of the crucial things that we all are implying is that, at some point in time, AI is going to become a feature of the operations of our homes, our businesses. And as these technologies get more powerful, and they diffuse, and know about how to use them, diffuses more broadly, and you put more options into the hands of more people, the question slowly starts to turn from can we do it, to should we do it? And, one of the issues that I introduce is that I think the difference between big data and AI, specifically, is this notion of agency. The AI will act on behalf of, perhaps you, or it will act on behalf of your business. And that conversation is not being had, today. It's being had in arguments between Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, which pretty quickly get pretty boring. (laughing) At the end of the day, the real question is, should this machine, whether in concert with others, or not, be acting on behalf of me, on behalf of my business, or, and when I say on behalf of me, I'm also talking about privacy. Because Facebook is acting on behalf of me, it's not just what's going on in my home. So, the question of, can it be done? A lot of things can be done, and an increasing number of things will be able to be done. We got to start having a conversation about should it be done? - So, humans exhibit tribal behavior, they exhibit bias. Their machine's going to pick that up, go ahead, please. - Yeah, one thing that sort of tag onto agency of artificial intelligence. Every industry, every business is now about identifying information and data sources, and their appropriate sinks, and learning how to draw value out of connecting the sources with the sinks. Artificial intelligence enables you to identify those sources and sinks, and when it gets agency, it will be able to make decisions on your behalf about what data is good, what data means, and who it should be. - What actions are good. - Well, what actions are good. - And what data was used to make those actions. - Absolutely. - And was that the right data, and is there bias of data? And all the way down, all the turtles down. - So, all this, the data pedigree will be driven by the agency of artificial intelligence, and this is a big issue. - It's really fundamental to understand and educate people on, there are four fundamental types of bias, so there's, in machine learning, there's intentional bias, "Hey, we're going to make "the algorithm generate a certain outcome "regardless of what the data says." There's the source of the data itself, historical data that's trained on the models built on flawed data, the model will behave in a flawed way. There's target source, which is, for example, we know that if you pull data from a certain social network, that network itself has an inherent bias. No matter how representative you try to make the data, it's still going to have flaws in it. Or, if you pull healthcare data about, for example, African-Americans from the US healthcare system, because of societal biases, that data will always be flawed. And then there's tool bias, there's limitations to what the tools can do, and so we will intentionally exclude some kinds of data, or not use it because we don't know how to, our tools are not able to, and if we don't teach people what those biases are, they won't know to look for them, and I know. - Yeah, it's like, one of the things that we were talking about before, I mean, artificial intelligence is not going to just create itself, it's lines of code, it's input, and it spits out output. So, if it learns from these learning sets, we don't want AI to become another buzzword. We don't want everybody to be an "AR guru" that has no idea what AI is. It takes months, and months, and months for these machines to learn. These learning sets are so very important, because that input is how this machine, think of it as your child, and that's basically the way artificial intelligence is learning, like your child. You're feeding it these learning sets, and then eventually it will make its own decisions. So, we know from some of us having children that you teach them the best that you can, but then later on, when they're doing their own thing, they're really, it's like a little myna bird, they've heard everything that you've said. (laughing) Not only the things that you said to them directly, but the things that you said indirectly. - Well, there are some very good AI researchers that might disagree with that metaphor, exactly. (laughing) But, having said that, what I think is very interesting about this conversation is that this notion of bias, one of the things that fascinates me about where AI goes, are we going to find a situation where tribalism more deeply infects business? Because we know that human beings do not seek out the best information, they seek out information that reinforces their beliefs. And that happens in business today. My line of business versus your line of business, engineering versus sales, that happens today, but it happens at a planning level, and when we start talking about AI, we have to put the appropriate dampers, understand the biases, so that we don't end up with deep tribalism inside of business. Because AI could have the deleterious effect that it actually starts ripping apart organizations. - Well, input is data, and then the output is, could be a lot of things. - Could be a lot of things. - And that's where I said data equals human lives. So that we look at the case in New York where the penal system was using this artificial intelligence to make choices on people that were released from prison, and they saw that that was a miserable failure, because that people that release actually re-offended, some committed murder and other things. So, I mean, it's, it's more than what anybody really thinks. It's not just, oh, well, we'll just train the machines, and a couple of weeks later they're good, we never have to touch them again. These things have to be continuously tweaked. So, just because you built an algorithm or a model doesn't mean you're done. You got to go back later, and continue to tweak these models. - Mark, you got the mic. - Yeah, no, I think one thing we've talked a lot about the data that's collected, but what about the data that's not collected? Incomplete profiles, incomplete datasets, that's a form of bias, and sometimes that's the worst. Because they'll fill that in, right, and then you can get some bias, but there's also a real issue for that around cyber security. Logs are not always complete, things are not always done, and when things are doing that, people make assumptions based on what they've collected, not what they didn't collect. So, when they're looking at this, and they're using the AI on it, that's only on the data collected, not on that that wasn't collected. So, if something is down for a little while, and no data's collected off that, the assumption is, well, it was down, or it was impacted, or there was a breach, or whatever, it could be any of those. So, you got to, there's still this human need, there's still the need for humans to look at the data and realize that there is the bias in there, there is, we're just looking at what data was collected, and you're going to have to make your own thoughts around that, and assumptions on how to actually use that data before you go make those decisions that can impact lots of people, at a human level, enterprise's profitability, things like that. And too often, people think of AI, when it comes out of there, that's the word. Well, it's not the word. - Can I ask a question about this? - Please. - Does that mean that we shouldn't act? - It does not. - Okay. - So, where's the fine line? - Yeah, I think. - Going back to this notion of can we do it, or should we do it? Should we act? - Yeah, I think you should do it, but you should use it for what it is. It's augmenting, it's helping you, assisting you to make a valued or good decision. And hopefully it's a better decision than you would've made without it. - I think it's great, I think also, your answer's right too, that you have to iterate faster, and faster, and faster, and discover sources of information, or sources of data that you're not currently using, and, that's why this thing starts getting really important. - I think you touch on a really good point about, should you or shouldn't you? You look at Google, and you look at the data that they've been using, and some of that out there, from a digital twin perspective, is not being approved, or not authorized, and even once they've made changes, it's still floating around out there. Where do you know where it is? So, there's this dilemma of, how do you have a digital twin that you want to have, and is going to work for you, and is going to do things for you to make your life easier, to do these things, mundane tasks, whatever? But how do you also control it to do things you don't want it to do? - Ad-based business models are inherently evil. (laughing) - Well, there's incentives to appropriate our data, and so, are things like blockchain potentially going to give users the ability to control their data? We'll see. - No, I, I'm sorry, but that's actually a really important point. The idea of consensus algorithms, whether it's blockchain or not, blockchain includes games, and something along those lines, whether it's Byzantine fault tolerance, or whether it's Paxos, consensus-based algorithms are going to be really, really important. Parts of this conversation, because the data's going to be more distributed, and you're going to have more elements participating in it. And so, something that allows, especially in the machine-to-machine world, which is a lot of what we're talking about right here, you may not have blockchain, because there's no need for a sense of incentive, which is what blockchain can help provide. - And there's no middleman. - And, well, all right, but there's really, the thing that makes blockchain so powerful is it liberates new classes of applications. But for a lot of the stuff that we're talking about, you can use a very powerful consensus algorithm without having a game side, and do some really amazing things at scale. - So, looking at blockchain, that's a great thing to bring up, right. I think what's inherently wrong with the way we do things today, and the whole overall design of technology, whether it be on-prem, or off-prem, is both the lock and key is behind the same wall. Whether that wall is in a cloud, or behind a firewall. So, really, when there is an audit, or when there is a forensics, it always comes down to a sysadmin, or something else, and the system administrator will have the finger pointed at them, because it all resides, you can edit it, you can augment it, or you can do things with it that you can't really determine. Now, take, as an example, blockchain, where you've got really the source of truth. Now you can take and have the lock in one place, and the key in another place. So that's certainly going to be interesting to see how that unfolds. - So, one of the things, it's good that, we've hit a lot of buzzwords, right now, right? (laughing) AI, and ML, block. - Bingo. - We got the blockchain bingo, yeah, yeah. So, one of the things is, you also brought up, I mean, ethics and everything, and one of the things that I've noticed over the last year or so is that, as I attend briefings or demos, everyone is now claiming that their product is AI or ML-enabled, or blockchain-enabled. And when you try to get answers to the questions, what you really find out is that some things are being pushed as, because they have if-then statements somewhere in their code, and therefore that's artificial intelligence or machine learning. - [Peter] At least it's not "go-to." (laughing) - Yeah, you're that experienced as well. (laughing) So, I mean, this is part of the thing you try to do as a practitioner, as an analyst, as an influencer, is trying to, you know, the hype of it all. And recently, I attended one where they said they use blockchain, and I couldn't figure it out, and it turns out they use GUIDs to identify things, and that's not blockchain, it's an identifier. (laughing) So, one of the ethics things that I think we, as an enterprise community, have to deal with, is the over-promising of AI, and ML, and deep learning, and recognition. It's not, I don't really consider it visual recognition services if they just look for red pixels. I mean, that's not quite the same thing. Yet, this is also making things much harder for your average CIO, or worse, CFO, to understand whether they're getting any value from these technologies. - Old bottle. - Old bottle, right. - And I wonder if the data companies, like that you talked about, or the top five, I'm more concerned about their nearly, or actual $1 trillion valuations having an impact on their ability of other companies to disrupt or enter into the field more so than their data technologies. Again, we're coming to another perfect storm of the companies that have data as their asset, even though it's still not on their financial statements, which is another indicator whether it's really an asset, is that, do we need to think about the terms of AI, about whose hands it's in, and who's, like, once one large trillion-dollar company decides that you are not a profitable company, how many other companies are going to buy that data and make that decision about you? - Well, and for the first time in business history, I think, this is true, we're seeing, because of digital, because it's data, you're seeing tech companies traverse industries, get into, whether it's content, or music, or publishing, or groceries, and that's powerful, and that's awful scary. - If you're a manger, one of the things your ownership is asking you to do is to reduce asset specificities, so that their capital could be applied to more productive uses. Data reduces asset specificities. It brings into question the whole notion of vertical industry. You're absolutely right. But you know, one quick question I got for you, playing off of this is, again, it goes back to this notion of can we do it, and should we do it? I find it interesting, if you look at those top five, all data companies, but all of them are very different business models, or they can classify the two different business models. Apple is transactional, Microsoft is transactional, Google is ad-based, Facebook is ad-based, before the fake news stuff. Amazon's kind of playing it both sides. - Yeah, they're kind of all on a collision course though, aren't they? - But, well, that's what's going to be interesting. I think, at some point in time, the "can we do it, should we do it" question is, brands are going to be identified by whether or not they have gone through that process of thinking about, should we do it, and say no. Apple is clearly, for example, incorporating that into their brand. - Well, Silicon Valley, broadly defined, if I include Seattle, and maybe Armlock, not so much IBM. But they've got a dual disruption agenda, they've always disrupted horizontal tech. Now they're disrupting vertical industries. - I was actually just going to pick up on what she was talking about, we were talking about buzzword, right. So, one we haven't heard yet is voice. Voice is another big buzzword right now, when you couple that with IoT and AI, here you go, bingo, do I got three points? (laughing) Voice recognition, voice technology, so all of the smart speakers, if you think about that in the world, there are 7,000 languages being spoken, but yet if you look at Google Home, you look at Siri, you look at any of the devices, I would challenge you, it would have a lot of problem understanding my accent, and even when my British accent creeps out, or it would have trouble understanding seniors, because the way they talk, it's very different than a typical 25-year-old person living in Silicon Valley, right. So, how do we solve that, especially going forward? We're seeing voice technology is going to be so more prominent in our homes, we're going to have it in the cars, we have it in the kitchen, it does everything, it listens to everything that we are talking about, not talking about, and records it. And to your point, is it going to start making decisions on our behalf, but then my question is, how much does it actually understand us? - So, I just want one short story. Siri can't translate a word that I ask it to translate into French, because my phone's set to Canadian English, and that's not supported. So I live in a bilingual French English country, and it can't translate. - But what this is really bringing up is if you look at society, and culture, what's legal, what's ethical, changes across the years. What was right 200 years ago is not right now, and what was right 50 years ago is not right now. - It changes across countries. - It changes across countries, it changes across regions. So, what does this mean when our AI has agency? How do we make ethical AI if we don't even know how to manage the change of what's right and what's wrong in human society? - One of the most important questions we have to worry about, right? - Absolutely. - But it also says one more thing, just before we go on. It also says that the issue of economies of scale, in the cloud. - Yes. - Are going to be strongly impacted, not just by how big you can build your data centers, but some of those regulatory issues that are going to influence strongly what constitutes good experience, good law, good acting on my behalf, agency. - And one thing that's underappreciated in the marketplace right now is the impact of data sovereignty, if you get back to data, countries are now recognizing the importance of managing that data, and they're implementing data sovereignty rules. Everyone talks about California issuing a new law that's aligned with GDPR, and you know what that meant. There are 30 other states in the United States alone that are modifying their laws to address this issue. - Steve. - So, um, so, we got a number of years, no matter what Ray Kurzweil says, until we get to artificial general intelligence. - The singularity's not so near? (laughing) - You know that he's changed the date over the last 10 years. - I did know it. - Quite a bit. And I don't even prognosticate where it's going to be. But really, where we're at right now, I keep coming back to, is that's why augmented intelligence is really going to be the new rage, humans working with machines. One of the hot topics, and the reason I chose to speak about it is, is the future of work. I don't care if you're a millennial, mid-career, or a baby boomer, people are paranoid. As machines get smarter, if your job is routine cognitive, yes, you have a higher propensity to be automated. So, this really shifts a number of things. A, you have to be a lifelong learner, you've got to learn new skillsets. And the dynamics are changing fast. Now, this is also a great equalizer for emerging startups, and even in SMBs. As the AI improves, they can become more nimble. So back to your point regarding colossal trillion dollar, wait a second, there's going to be quite a sea change going on right now, and regarding demographics, in 2020, millennials take over as the majority of the workforce, by 2025 it's 75%. - Great news. (laughing) - As a baby boomer, I try my damnedest to stay relevant. - Yeah, surround yourself with millennials is the takeaway there. - Or retire. (laughs) - Not yet. - One thing I think, this goes back to what Karen was saying, if you want a basic standard to put around the stuff, look at the old ISO 38500 framework. Business strategy, technology strategy. You have risk, compliance, change management, operations, and most importantly, the balance sheet in the financials. AI and what Tony was saying, digital transformation, if it's of meaning, it belongs on a balance sheet, and should factor into how you value your company. All the cyber security, and all of the compliance, and all of the regulation, is all stuff, this framework exists, so look it up, and every time you start some kind of new machine learning project, or data sense project, say, have we checked the box on each of these standards that's within this machine? And if you haven't, maybe slow down and do your homework. - To see a day when data is going to be valued on the balance sheet. - It is. - It's already valued as part of the current, but it's good will. - Certainly market value, as we were just talking about. - Well, we're talking about all of the companies that have opted in, right. There's tens of thousands of small businesses just in this region alone that are opt-out. They're small family businesses, or businesses that really aren't even technology-aware. But data's being collected about them, it's being on Yelp, they're being rated, they're being reviewed, the success to their business is out of their hands. And I think what's really going to be interesting is, you look at the big data, you look at AI, you look at things like that, blockchain may even be a potential for some of that, because of mutability, but it's when all of those businesses, when the technology becomes a cost, it's cost-prohibitive now, for a lot of them, or they just don't want to do it, and they're proudly opt-out. In fact, we talked about that last night at dinner. But when they opt-in, the company that can do that, and can reach out to them in a way that is economically feasible, and bring them back in, where they control their data, where they control their information, and they do it in such a way where it helps them build their business, and it may be a generational business that's been passed on. Those kind of things are going to make a big impact, not only on the cloud, but the data being stored in the cloud, the AI, the applications that you talked about earlier, we talked about that. And that's where this bias, and some of these other things are going to have a tremendous impact if they're not dealt with now, at least ethically. - Well, I feel like we just got started, we're out of time. Time for a couple more comments, and then officially we have to wrap up. - Yeah, I had one thing to say, I mean, really, Henry Ford, and the creation of the automobile, back in the early 1900s, changed everything, because now we're no longer stuck in the country, we can get away from our parents, we can date without grandma and grandpa setting on the porch with us. (laughing) We can take long trips, so now we're looked at, we've sprawled out, we're not all living in the country anymore, and it changed America. So, AI has that same capabilities, it will automate mundane routine tasks that nobody wanted to do anyway. So, a lot of that will change things, but it's not going to be any different than the way things changed in the early 1900s. - It's like you were saying, constant reinvention. - I think that's a great point, let me make one observation on that. Every period of significant industrial change was preceded by the formation, a period of formation of new assets that nobody knew what to do with. Whether it was, what do we do, you know, industrial manufacturing, it was row houses with long shafts tied to an engine that was coal-fired, and drove a bunch of looms. Same thing, railroads, large factories for Henry Ford, before he figured out how to do an information-based notion of mass production. This is the period of asset formation for the next generation of social structures. - Those ship-makers are going to be all over these cars, I mean, you're going to have augmented reality right there, on your windshield. - Karen, bring it home. Give us the drop-the-mic moment. (laughing) - No pressure. - Your AV guys are not happy with that. So, I think the, it all comes down to, it's a people problem, a challenge, let's say that. The whole AI ML thing, people, it's a legal compliance thing. Enterprises are going to struggle with trying to meet five billion different types of compliance rules around data and its uses, about enforcement, because ROI is going to make risk of incarceration as well as return on investment, and we'll have to manage both of those. I think businesses are struggling with a lot of this complexity, and you just opened a whole bunch of questions that we didn't really have solid, "Oh, you can fix it by doing this." So, it's important that we think of this new world of data focus, data-driven, everything like that, is that the entire IT and business community needs to realize that focusing on data means we have to change how we do things and how we think about it, but we also have some of the same old challenges there. - Well, I have a feeling we're going to be talking about this for quite some time. What a great way to wrap up CUBE NYC here, our third day of activities down here at 37 Pillars, or Mercantile 37. Thank you all so much for joining us today. - Thank you. - Really, wonderful insights, really appreciate it, now, all this content is going to be available on theCUBE.net. We are exposing our video cloud, and our video search engine, so you'll be able to search our entire corpus of data. I can't wait to start searching and clipping up this session. Again, thank you so much, and thank you for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Narrator: Live from the Bill Graham Auditorium in San Francisco. It's the Cube. Covering Pure Storage Accelerate 2018. Brought to you by Pure Storage. >> Welcome back to Pure Storage Accelerate 2018. I'm Lisa Martin with the Cube. I'm with Dave Vellante. We are here in San Francisco at the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium which is why we're sporting some concert t-shirts. >> Who. >> The Who and the Clong. >> Roger. Roger Delchi. >> Roger. We are here with the CIO of the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Pure customer, Ben Nathan. Ben, welcome to the Cube. Thanks for having me. So, talk to us about the shool of medicine at UCLA. You are the CIO there, you've been there for about three years. Give us a little bit of the 10,000 foot view of what your organization looks like to support the school of medicine. >> Sure. We're about 170 people. We have changed a lot over the last three years. So, when I got to UCLA there was 25 separate IT organizations, all smaller groups, operating in each individual department. And, they had built their own sets of managed infrastructure, distributed throughout every closet, nook and cranny in the school. We've consolidated all that under one set of service lines, one organization, and that's including consolidating all the systems and applications as well. So, we've brought all those together and now we're additionally running IT for three more health sciences schools at UCLA, nursing, dentistry, and school of public health, Fielding School of Public Health. Like a lot of CIOs, you serve many masters. You got the administration, you got the students, right. You've got the broader constituency. The community, UCLA. Where do you start? What's the quote on quote customer experience that you're trying to achieve? That's a great way to put it. There's really sort of four pillars that we try to serve. The patient being first and foremost. So, for us, everything is built around a great patient experience. And, that means that when we're educating students it's so they can be great providers of patient care. When we're doing research, When we're doing that research in an effort to eradicate disease et cetera. And, when we're doing community outreach it's also around improving health and peoples lives, so, in IT, we try to stay very connected to those missions. I think it's a large part of what drives people to be a part of an organization that's healthcare or that's a provider. That mission is really, really important. So, yes. We're serving all four of those things at once. >> So, you had lots of silos, lots of data, that's all continuing to grow but, this is data that literally life and death decisions can be made on this. Talk to us about the volumes of data, all the different sources that are generating data. People, sensors, things and how did you make this decision to consolidate leveraging Pure Storage as that foundation? >> Yeah, there's and incredible amount of work going on at UCLA. Particularly in their research education and patient care spaces. We had every brand of server in storage that you've never heard of. Things bought at lowest, bitter methods but, the technical data that we had incurred as part of that was enormous. Right, it's unsustainable. It's unsupportable. It's insecure-able. When I got there and we started to think about how do we deal with all of this? We knew we had an opportunity to green field an infrastructure and consolidate everything onto it. That was the first, that was started us down the road that led us to Pure as one of our major storage vendors. I had worked with them before but, they won on their merits, right? We do these very rigorous RFP processes when we buy things. The thing that really, I think, got them the the victory is us is that the deduplication of data got us to something like an eight to one ratio of virtual to physical. So, we get a lot of virtual servers running on relatively small amount of storage. And, that it's encrypted you know, sort of the time, right? There's not like a switch you might flip or something a vendor says they'll do but it >> Always on. >> doesn't really do, it is always on. And, it's critical for us. We're really building a far more secure and manageable set of services and so all the vendors we work with meet that criteria. >> So, is as a CIO, I would imagine you don't want to wake up every day and think of storage. With all due respect to our friends at Pure. >> That's true. >> So, has bringing it in for infrastructure in, like Pure, that prides itself on simplicity, allowed you to do the things that you really want to do and need to do for your organization? >> Yeah. I'll give you a two part answer. I mean one is simply, I think, it's operationally a really great service. I think that it's well designed, and run, and managed. And, we get great use of out it. I think the thing that makes it so that I don't have to think about it is actually, the business model that they have. So, the fact that I know that it's not going to really obsolete on its own, as long as you're like in the support model, you're upgrading the system every few years, changes, you know the, model for me, 'cause I don't have to think about these new, massive capitalization efforts, it's more of a predictable operational costs and that helps me sleep well because I know what we look like over the next few years and I can explain that to my financial organization. >> Just a follow up on that, a large incumbent storage supplier or system vendor might say, "Well, we can make that transparent to you. We can use our financial services to hide that complexity or make a cloud-like rental experience or you know, play financial games to hide that. Why does that not suffice for you? >> Well, I think, first and foremost we sort of want to run our financials on our own and we're pretty anxious about having anyone else in the middle of all that. Number two is it seems to me different in terms of Pure having built that model from the ground up as part of their service offerings. So, I don't think we see that with too many other vendors and I think that obviously there's far less technical than what I had in the previous design but it can still add up if you're not careful about whatever, what server mechanism you have in place, et cetera. >> But, it eliminates the forklift upgrade, right. Even with those financial incentives or tricks, you still got to forklift it and it's a disruption to your operation. >> Yeah, and I'm sure that's true, yeah. >> So, when you guys were back a year and a half or so, maybe two years ago, looking at this consolidation, where were your thoughts in terms of beyond consolidation and looking at being able to harness the power of AI, for example, we heard a lot of AI today already and this need for legacy infrastructures are insufficient to support that. Was that also part of your plan, was not simply to consolidate and bring your (speaks very rapidly) environment unto Pure source but also to leverage a modern platform that can allow you to harness the power of AI? >> Yeah. That was sort of the later phase bonus period that we're starting to enter now. So, after we sort of consolidate and secure everything, now, we can actually do far more interesting things that would've been much more difficult before. And, in terms of Pure, when we had set out to do this we imagined doing a lot of our analytics and AI machine learning kind of cloud only and we tried that. We're doing a lot of really great things in the cloud but not all of it is makes sense in that environment. Either from a cost perspective or from a capabilities perspective. Particularly with what Pure has been announcing lately, I think there's a really good opportunity for us to build high performance computing clusters in our on premise environment that leverage Pure as a potential storage back end. And that's where our really interesting data goes. We can do the analytics or the AI machine learning on the data that's in our electronic medical record or in our genomics workflows or things like that can all flow through a service like that and there's some interesting discoveries that ought to come from it. >> There's a lot of talk at this event about artificial intelligence, machine intelligence, how do you see AI in health care, generally? And specifically, how you're going to apply it? Is it helping doctors with diagnosis? Is it maybe maintaining better compliance? Or, talk about that a little. >> I think there's two things that I can think of off the top of my head. The first is decision support. So this is helping physicians when they're working directly with patients there's only, there's so many systems, so many data sets, so many way to analyze, and yet getting it all in front of them in some kind of real time way so that they can use it effectively is tricky. So, AI, machine learning, have a chance to help us funnel that into something that's immediately useful in the moment. And then the other thing that we're seeing is that most of the research on genomics and the outcomes that have resulted in changes to clinical care are around individualized mutations in a single nucleotide so there's, those are I guess, quote, relatively easy for a researcher to pick out. There's a letter here that is normally a different letter. But, there are other scenarios where there's not a direct easy tie from a single mutation to an outcome. so, like in autism or diabetes, we're not sure what the genetic components are but we think that with AI machine learning, those things will start to identify patterns in genomic sequences that humans aren't finding with their typical approaches and so, we're really excited to see our genomic platforms built up to a point where they have sequences in them to do that sort of analysis and you need big compute, fast storage to do that kind of thing. >> How is it going to help the big compute, fast storage, this modern infrastructure, help whether its genomics or clinicians be able to sort through masses amounts of data to try to find those needles in the haystack 'cause I think the staff this morning that Charlie Jean and Carla mentioned was that half a percent of data in the world is analyzed. So, how would that under the hood infrastructure going to help facilitate your smart folks getting those needles in the haystack just to start really making big impacts? >> UCLA has an incredible faculty, like brilliant researchers, and sometimes what I've found since I've gotten there, the only ingredient that's missing is the platform where they can do some of this stuff. So, some of them are incredibly enterprising, they've built their own platforms for their own analysis. Others we work with they have a lot of data sets they don't have a place to put them where they can properly interrelate them and do, apply their algorithms at scale. So, we've run into people that are trying to do these massive analysis on a laptop or a little computer or whatever it just fails, right? Or it runs forever. So, giving them, providing a way to have the infrastructure that they can run these things is really the ingredient that we're trying to add and so, that's about storage and compute, et cetera. >> How do you see the role of the CIO evolving? We hear a lot of people on the Cube and these conferences talk about digital transformation and the digital CIO, how much of that is permeating your organization and what do you think it means to the CIO world going forward? >> I wish I knew the real answer to that question. I don't know, time will tell. But, I think that certainly we're trying to follow the trends that we see more broadly which is there's a job of keeping the lights on of operations. And you're not really, you shouldn't have a seat at any other table and so those things are quite excellent. >> Table stakes. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly, table stakes. Security, all that stuff. Once, you've got that, you know, my belief is you need to deeply understand the business and find your way into helping to solve problems for it and so, you know, our realm, a lot of that these days is how do we understand the student journey from prior to, from when they maybe want to apply all the way 'til when they go out and become a resident and then a physician. There's a ton of data that's gathered along that way. We got to ask a lot of questions we don't have easy answers to but, if we put the data together properly, we start to, right? On the research side, same sort of idea, right? Where the more we know about the particular clinical outcomes they're trying to achieve or even just basic science research that they're looking into, the better that we can better micro target a solution to them. Whether it's a on prem, private cloud, or public cloud, either one of those can be harnessed for really specific workloads and I think when we start to do that, we've enabled our faculty to do things that have been tougher for them to do before. Once, we understand the business in those ways I think we really start to have an impact at the strategic level, the organization. >> You've got this centralized services model that was a strategic initiative that you put in place. You've got the foundation there that's going to allow you to start opening up other opportunities. I'm curious, in the UCLA system, maybe the UC system, are there other organizations or schools that are looking at what you're doing as a model to maybe replicate across the system? >> I think there's I don't know about a model. I think there's certainly efforts among some to find, to centralize at least some services because of economies to scale or security or all the normal things. With the anticipated, and then anticipating that that could ultimately provide more value once the baseline stuff is out of the way. UC is vast and varied system so there's a lot of amazing things going on in different realms and we're I think, doing more than ever working together and trying to find common solutions to problems. So, we'll see whose model works out. >> Well, Ben. Thanks so much for stopping by the Cube and sharing the impact that your making at the UCLA School of Medicine, leveraging storage and all the different capabilities that that is generating. We thank you for your time. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> We want to thank you for watching the Cube. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. We are live at Pure Accelerate 2018 in San Francisco. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest.

>>live from Madrid, Spain. It's the Q covering HP Discover Madrid 2017 Brought to you by Hewlett Packard Enterprise >>Welcome back to Madrid, Spain. Everybody, this is cute. The leader in live tech coverage And we have a day to HP discover Madrid. My name is Dave Volonte with my co host for the week Peter Verse. Jeff, Carla is here. He's the senior director of solutions. Go to market system integrators at Hewlett Packard Enterprise and Kalyan Gara Mela. Who is the i o t manager? Deloitte. Yes, Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on, You bad love too deep here. It's always a great time. Yes. So you know, when you come on with Deloitte, we always sort of mentioned you guys. One of the top system integrators in the planet. You got deep expertise and vertical industries. You guys bring the technology expertise. Last time we were talking about manufacturing. This time we're gonna talk about retail. Yes. Why? Retail, You know, retails in turmoil. Everybody's got numbers on war room. But you guys are going after that, helping some of your customers so to take advantage of their physical presence, bringing in an online presence move into digital. Is there hope there's hope, their retail dead? You know, >>I hear all the time about this retail apocalypse retail is dead, and in reality, it's not dead at all. Still, 85 to 90% of purchases were being going through a brick and mortar store problem here, and the apocalypse will happen to those brick and mortar retailers that don't change. They don't digitize and change to the changing demands of a consumer and the way they want purchase something, give you an example, my son or even myself. Now I increasingly want to do things through an experience. My computer, my mobile phone. I do research. I I want to understand. I want recommendations. I want personalization. I want to be catered to. I don't want to go stand in line. Well, that experience can be done but are unique. Ability. Is taking that experience in a planet into a brick and mortar environment? >>Well, I got to say I love going Cabela's with my kid with my wife. I mean, I could spend all day. Hey, get that on Callie and tell us about your you're rolling. The Lloyd, obviously specializing in the retail practice. What, Your background? >>Yes, my name's Kalyan. Gotta Mila being a coyote manager from the >>delight you >>practice based out of San Francisco, and we have been working with our partners and friends. Hitch be Aruba over the past year or so, helping them dollar, I ot go to market projects, products that can be that we can take to market on Dhe. Recently. We're just working with manufacturing and retail industry. >>So what's the conversation >>like with your customers? As I said, everybody's got an Amazon war room they're trying to figure out. Okay, >>how do we leverage our physical presence as an advantage? What were the conversations like with clients with >>our clients? Mostly that talking about How did the mimic our online channels? Right. If I go to an online retailer, you know, if I go open, say amazon dot com, they know exactly what item I am for chasing where I'm going next. What? How much time I'm spending. So in order to differentiate the brick and mortars in order to differentiate themselves from the fellow retailers, they have to offer that customized shopping experience in order to get given a reason for the customers to come in store and make that purchase. So they're trying to look at what new technologies that we can can we can help with. What are some of the new processes that we can help with? And that's where most of our conversations have been going on, >>Really experience. Problem >>it is. And you talk about the bells and I moved into a new house, ready to buy my big >>lazy boy chair and watch Sunday >>football, and I'm not gonna go online just by here. I want to touch and feel that I was late and I want to understand. Well, that is a perfect opportunity of providing an experience. Allows me to do the research, get suggestions, go into a brick and mortar store. Try it out, then guess what? I'm getting personalized. Hey, you know what? There's a nice beer stand that I could put right next to that table. Be calm, perfectly complemented. Hey, there's a light that can look over So we have that ability of actually tying together and experience, actually predicting in advance what the customer really doesn't know they want next. But they really do want example. We just walked out of a client engagement. Beautiful example. Plan Engagement sells high end women's fashions, right dresses and shoes and accessories. Everything. And he's He basically said, We're dabbling around with R F I. D tags, um, inventory management, but we don't know what to do, right? Bingo. We now have a proven, referenced architecture called the Connected Consumer. This is a preview to be announced to be soon, but that can allow, actually that client to integrate and optimized and digitized the solution for a number of different use cases that spans a unique customer experience in store operations and efficiencies, and then providing insights through analytics in store analytics to make decisions quickly. So you've got by using this architecture building of solutions based with Deloitte Competence season capabilities in HPD Aruba technology. We can deliver that to increase top line revenue, increase basket side, decrease inventory costs, lost inventory and provide much greater brand loyalty to those customers by having a nice, personalized teachers. They know me by name. They know what I'm looking for in advance. Beautiful solution. >>So the online retail world did two crucial things. One is provided new way of customer to buy something and number two, it provided a new way for the retailer to learn something about the customer. Very, very powerful. But as you said, we're still last time. I checked physical things that move through space that used physical senses, too. Make decisions, Tactile. Do I like the color? You know the experience. I mean, I remember having arguments with people about whether the Apple stores are ever gonna have any impact in the world. And, boy, did they prove that experience of physically being there matters. So in many respects we're talking about, We're talking about creating spaces, the correspond to the experience that a customer wants in a way that doesn't force them into another channel. >>I think that is excellent. Thank you will hear security and character talks about who these are Aruba team. And they are renowned for taking a space and providing using technology and I, t and software and security to provide a total experience, an immersive experience for those that are occupying that. >>But that's not how retailers used to think. What they used to think was this is the space where I put my inventory where I show my product and then I'll put the catch register over here. What you guys I presume we're trying to do is show how. Show them how they could turn that physical space into a place that can bring in the online digital elements, complimented in a way that makes that door a source of different jack >>experience in the brick and mortar store and allows the comfort of Yeah, you know >>that makes it differentiated so that someone wants to go there, because that is a valuable experience in and of itself. >>And sadly, retailers of the past 40 years have always relied on big brand names to attract customers. If I have the best brands in the world, customers will come to me back. That scenario doesn't hold true anymore. You need to give them a reason. A personalized, curated experience for them to come in >>well, not least of which is the digital technology allows us to spin up new brands like overnight and so also so there's a there's it's having an erosion of effect on the other side of the inventory. So tell us a little bit about where you think over the next few years that differentiated in store experience is gonna be what is going to constitute great retail. >>I'll start enough shit. >>First and foremost, the expectations of millennials and other generations is more of that online experience. So I think I think retailers of the future have to be able to provide that customized experience. To be able to provide predicted people are not waiting in line is not an option in the future, right? I mean, even you. You look a waiting in line is not an option. I think that ability of you have to have more instantaneous gratification but allowing, if you will, the personalization being covered. I think that one expectation for those that want to sustain a business in retail in the future >>and add on to that right. I mean, the marketing managers are the store managers of the past have always relied on opinions rather than data and insights to make this better business stations. Where do I place my product? Where are my customer spending most of my time? It's just guess it's most of it was guessing. Now there is a technology out there where we can actually monitor what's happening inside your retail store and dead. While you can make better business nations to help you with your customer journeys, >>traffic, foot traffic, you know through video analytics and the data someone's hanging around the Nike booth or whatever you know financially, and you can purposely point them and give them suggestions of 20% off. And so you can personalize that experience. >>So wait. See Io client on DDE that's in the retail space on the way he described it is, you gotta break the whole thing down. Let me test you guys. You have a period of I want the experience of shopping on. The example that he gave me was a bike company a number of years ago who used flexible manufacturing to collapse the time high end bike to collapse, a time from order in the bike, getting the bike down to a few days. And they failed because the customer like waiting the process of buying, reducing time. Simple, straightforward, but also what they said. And this is the kind of flexibility we're talking about is some people don't wanna walk out of the store with the product they want to deliver to their home, so the store is again, not the place where the inventory is. It's the place where you experience the product and that they create an option. How would you like that? I like to be delivered to my house. No problem. There you go. Is that the kind of thing that we're talking about in the future? >>Absolutely. We call it the unified commerce of the Arm and channel shopping experience. You want to give the customer all the options available. Like you said, I could buy online shipping in store O. R. I can buy in store get into my house all the different options that a customer is looking for. A non online channel, which is easy and convenient. We want to do that in a brick and mortar as well, and our solution can help you do that as well. So you >>guys encounter a client that is, you know, declining same store sales management is concerned about, You know, the future. It seems like it's a tired sort of experience and, you know, that's sort of the end of the spectrum. And you want, you know, the to be his future. Stefano, the talk about where do you start so >>who brings what experts is. >>Actually, I'm gonna repeat what I said last time. Our mantra is First off, you gotta think big. Then you start small and then you scale fast. And what I mean, that what we mean by that is with the Lloyds capability. It's been a week and jointly come in and help a retailer. Let's think it through. Let's think you have how many branches looking to wear? What are your problems? What your inventory leak age. You know what your current experience, but you're in store WiFi. We can build a plan on what we can do. But the next big problem that we see is not about the technology is about the people in the process. How do you convince its How do you commit? Some who invest to change well, this through our proof of concept capabilities, we have the ability of starting small. Let's just go in and we can do through this architect modular proven architecture. We could do a starting Well, let's just start with some R F I. D tags and tags and start small. We can deliver the business value and calculate that and extrapolate that out if we apply that to your all your stores and scale fast. So we're making it. This be an on ramp for those retailers because they're saying what I do. I know I need to change, but what do I >>So you do like a test store model, right? Okay. And then what? That's your POC is actual. >>Yeah, And then So I wanna go back a little bit on this whole coyote offering. It's a composite offering, right? It takes a lot of technologies coming together and a lot of SMEs subject matter experts to come in and help you to build a whole solution. And that's where I think our solution is where it's ready to go, where all the pieces have been put together and can be easy from day one. The time to market has been drastically reduced because of this. Right? So we see a lot of value in that. >>So So you're able to say Okay, what kind of target customer? What kind of inventory? What's the cost of it? What's the turn? Take all those business attributes and then say we can map that back into a set of physical and system components that you can scale fast >>really comes around you. Three buckets were doing this to optimize an increase revenue, basket size conversions, everything timed revenue, decrease costs, efficiencies and inventory logistics people, uh, labor. And then providing a much greater experience of brand loyalty, which will also affect both costs and >>capture and capture additional data. So, for example, returns means two things costs, but also, somebody had a problem. >>So, uh, we're out of time, but so summarize kind of where you guys were at, >>uh, your solutions when it's gonna be available, you go to market, give us the >>tickets. That right now we're here at HP discovered we're previewing this connected consumer architecture. We're will deploy it. Calendar quarter one of next year will be the full announcement. We have contact information. We would love to engage in clients and start that discussion now around doing proof of concepts on dhe. We're going to be not only driving this collective retail solution that could be extrapolated into different use. Cases in markets were also continued to drive the Moorman industrial Internet of things and manufacturing offering around predicting maintenance, asset monitoring, maintenance that we talked about in Vegas. >>Great. Well, I hope next next Vegas come back with some examples and some a customer, and we could go through so that one of impact you've had, maybe you'll be through a POC. At that point. I'd >>love to get the cube into one of their poc >>a well loved. All right, guys. Thanks very much for coming on the Cube. All right. Good >>to see you. See? All right. Thanks. Keep it right there, >>buddy. We'll be back with our next guest day. Volonte for Peter Burke alive from Madrid 17.

hi everybody we're back this is Dave vellante from Wikibon Oregon here with Jeff Frick this is silicon angles the cube the cube we go into events like this we're at knowledge service now is user conference we try to extract the signal from the noise would bring you we love sports analogies here we like to bring you the best athletes tech athletes week all them so Carolyn Hollingsworth is here she's I know Carolyn you're a fan of a football but we're going to call you a tech athlete so Karen's with Lennox internationals he's an IT practitioner there Carla thanks a lot for taking some time and coming on the cube so tell us a little bit about Lennox about the organization and what's your role there Lennox is a global manufacturer of furnace and air conditioning equipment were based in Dallas Texas and we have sales of about five billion dollars a year and i'm the senior manager of service operations ok so this conferences amazed this first knowledge conference I've been to I presume you've been to others or is this year first oh this is actually my fourth kind of okay so you were here an inning so they had a few before that I'd be close but so it's it's evolved over the years I told oh yes it seems like year-over-year it doubles yeah so it's gotten bigger and more diverse or in terms of just the content or is it still sort of focused on you know leveraging the platform and now it's got more diverse I mean they've added you know discovery and their this new orchestration which is run book that's new this year they're always adding new modules so and then to now they're really pushing platform that's the custom applications you can build outside of IT so do you they tell us it's really easy to write applications can you write applications on the platform oh yes really okay you a programmer by trader I programmed in a past life okay really don't program today but I can't go in and build screens within service now and do reporting it's very easy so I was a program of past life too and not a very good one which is why I know hosting the cube but I have an idea for an app so I'm dying to get my hands on the platform so I can play around with what they just came out with a brand new app that they say that anybody can sit down and write application app creator right yeah so I will test that anybody claims oh they said we have a hackathon going on I believe tomorrow yeah we actually come in that earlier today you're in there filming at that phone is underway there they're working till midnight I made sure that they had pizza and caffeine and I think they're gonna have a little bonus Vegas entertainment visiting at some point in time so tell us more about how you're using service i'm really interested in the sort of before and after described life before service now came in you know what was that like and how did it change and we'll get into the implementation a little bit well before service now we did have an application for the help desk to take tickets but that's about all we did nothing else within IT really had a system like service now after we brought service now and you know we it's a complete package they keep you know they say erp for IT well it truly is you can do ticketing we're doing change change management discovery of all of our assets we've built our own applications for access management even departments outside of IT are coming to us now and saying hey we see what you've done with service now we have something we think that maybe we could use it for so we've built applications for HR we're building an application for our R&D department to track the various incidents and changes that goes on with the large test cells for HVAC equipment marketing we have some small retailers that has pieces and parts for our HVAC equipment around the United States we've built an app for them to bring in new equipment and it has to go through a workflow and be approved by like a district manager pricing changes sales programs I'll have to be approved well we build an app for them that runs on service now also so prior to service now you had the collection of sperm and I've seen the spreadsheets and it's an asset spreadsheet and the spreadsheets on top of spreadsheets and that's that what that describes your environment oh yes definitely and somebody owns the spreadsheet this is totally right yeah this is before you know google doc so I chose I got it you take it you take it so you had all this sort of conversion simultaneous versions going on convictions or email email was always a big way to pass around test the various people can you take care of this can you do that now you may be very well may have had project management systems right actually we had a homegrown project management so a lot of customers right there yeah homegrown or Microsoft projects or you know whatever 37signals I mean there's there are many out there so how did ServiceNow sort of change things in other words what can you do now that you couldn't do then we have one system where everything is so there's no you know before someone would say this is the way it is and another one might be tracking the same assets or the licenses and we had 22 answers now we have one system that is the record their goal we called our golden record so everything is in service now it's connected to each other if you know if you think of erp for manufacturing is you know everything is connected to each other right so you see each other you used to have to add one plus the other divide by two and say okay that's a truth so parents can you talk a little bit about mobile I'm Mobile's impacting your business we keep hearing about we keep hearing about I think of the Linux guy out in the truck checking in on the HVAC outside the house and the commercial actually they are actually building computer controls into our units now they've announced a couple of them but it's going to be able to call home when it has a problem and it's just starting but I mean they're actually taking this mobile idea to our products and arses we're doing some plc's where our sales force is getting iPads and they're going to be doing some apps within Salesforce calm and talk about that one but it's okay you got to manage a lot of different idea I so many puzzles of that we're starting to delve into mobile we're looking at possibly replacing all of our laptops with either notebooks or tablets so we have a lot of PLC's going on right now just trying to put a strategy together as to what our mobile is going to be but it's coming towards us all different ways were there challenges in terms of would be so you bring in service now you get the single system that we call to the gold golden record record were there challenges in getting rid of stuff we have to keep army called GRS getting rid of stuff getting rid of for instance legacy systems that had sort of embedded themselves into the organization and how did that go how did that all come about well let me tell you first how ServiceNow got into our organization we had this older system and we had it for 10 years and I mean it was meeting our needs we thought I mean we didn't really have any problems with it we weren't looking for a new system and yeah I remember this is five years ago we I got an email out of the blue for with a little embedded commercial for her demo for service now and it was I mean just sort of like mind boggling what they were saying they could do and how it was all packaged in one package and basically I you know I want that just for that just for that day and what we'll use cases they that they outline that grabbed you so effectively it's just that everything you know is there erp system for IT everything was there is connected we had the system we had all we had was ticketing if you wanted problem you had to buy another module if you want to change it by another module everything you wanted was more money this was one package one subscription price and you know you got it all and but it took me a year to convince my peers and our vp that we should be looking at this now why did it take so long what was the kind of friction what was the discussion like well it's like well why didn't we you know the use case why did why do you need a new tool you know this'n seems to be you know taking stock broke right wife is it and Lennox is a very conservative company and and we have in the past run a lot of old software as probably a lot of companies do if there's not a real need there you know they don't go out and look at in retrospect it was broke right in your hair to what you're doing now so how did it affect your business I mean did you get more competitive are you able to you know track better people or you out cost how we we posed it after you know I got some doubles going and everybody in the you know interested in looking at this we convinced our vp that we should go global with this because before Lennox was very structured that each locality because her global had their own IT systems and their own IT support groups so while they reported in dotted line into dallas the headquarters everybody sort of did their own thing so we came up with this program will we were going to do standard global processes with 80 and so that's where we started and then we were going to use service now as the tool of choice so we started down that path and it didn't make a big difference to the business because now most of our IT processes are the same across the globe and you know we're asking everybody to do things the same way go to service now and just work that way so you stuck with it for a year and a half I mean you don't seem like the type of person who's gonna start pounding the table and intimidating people that doesn't seem to be your style so so I bet you but at the same time you you kept at it so it was you know a year and a half before you were able to convince people so how did you go about that sell process I'm really well rhian give advice to the other position Hunter wonder you're watching the shutter say Carolyn help me my senior guys to make us make the sleep in here today thirty percent of it yeah well I till was really becoming big at the time and there was a lot of news going on about I chill and you know we do listen to you know gardener and Forester and people like that so I told was getting big and I think you know it just came at the right time with our vp to say well you know maybe this is something we should look into and you know we got all the senior management together and basically he said you know everybody's got to put their thumbs on the table that we're doing the or we're not going to do it and everybody came to the table said yes it sounds like a good thing to do so what are you most proud of the accomplishments that you've made both professionally and personally as it relates to this initiative I think that our support and operations department or groups are working the most efficiently that the most efficient that they can and I think that you know we're responding to our customers needs a lot faster we're not hearing all the complaints that we heard before that you know hey this has been broke when you're going to fix it you know we're even trying to become more proactive we've brought in some monitoring tools that we didn't have before to help us along those lines so just to be more customer-centric and you know sort of instead of saying no to the customer say okay we can do it now so all this I mean you're using the lines of indoor so all the stuff we hear about from going no to now that's not just to you that's not just marketing you're actually living that is that fair statement yes I mean like I said we started putting up our own applications and now we have all these customers who wouldn't normally come to support and ask that though they have an application built they go to our project side of the house but they're coming to us you know we're working with safety and HR and R&D and you know I could double or triple my staff just to keep up with the request we're getting from outside of our teeth and you're able to do that so the businesses and helping you fund that yes it's got to feel great it's so easy to make an application I mean the other ERP system we use is SI p and you know to get a system up in sa peas big dollars 6 8 9 10 12 months and we literally built the application for our retail stores in two weeks so I mean I've been around IT a long time and I've just seen the finger pointing and what do you spending our money on it sounds like you're you've flipped or in the process of sort of flipping that tality is that is my overstating that er no I think that's that's gotta feel great I mean good congratulations hi Carol doesn't thanks very much for coming on the cube and sharing your story the story of Lennox your personal story and really congratulations on all the great progress oh thank you there's a pleasure all right keep it right to everybody will be back our next guest is marina Levinson who's the founder former at netapp CIO we've had a couple of