>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (bright upbeat music plays) >> Welcome back to Barcelona, everybody. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of MWC '23, my name is Dave Vellante. Just left a meeting with the CEO of Cisco, Chuck Robbins, to meet with Jeetu Patel, who's our Executive Vice President and General Manager of security and collaboration at Cisco. Good to see you. >> You never leave a meeting with Chuck Robbins to meet with Jeetu Patel. >> Well, I did. >> That's a bad idea. >> Walked right out. I said, hey, I got an interview to do, right? So, and I'm excited about this. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. >> So, I mean you run such an important part of the business. I mean, obviously the collaboration business but also security. So many changes going on in the security market. Maybe we could start there. I mean, there hasn't been a ton of security talk here Jeetu, because I think it's almost assumed. It was 45 minutes into the keynote yesterday before anybody even mentioned security. >> Huh. >> Right? And so, but it's the most important topic in the enterprise IT world. And obviously is important here. So why is it you think that it's not the first topic that people mention. >> You know, it's a complicated subject area and it's intimidating. And actually that's one of the things that the industry screwed up on. Where we need to simplify security so it actually gets to be relatable for every person on the planet. But, if you think about what's happening in security, it's not just important for business it's critical infrastructure that if you had a breach, you know lives are cost now. Because hospitals could go down, your water supply could go down, your electricity could go down. And so it's one of these things that we have to take pretty seriously. And, it's 51% of all breaches happen because of negligence, not because of malicious intent. >> It's that low. Interesting. I always- >> Someone else told me the same thing, that they though it'd be higher, yeah. >> I always say bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. >> Every single time. >> You can't beat it. But, you know, it's funny- >> Jeetu: Every single time. >> Back, the earlier part of last decade, you could see that security was becoming a board level issue. It became, it was on the agenda every quarter. And, I remember doing some research at the time, and I asked, I was interviewing Robert Gates, former Defense Secretary, and I asked him, yeah, but we're getting attacked but don't we have the best offense? Can't we have the best technology? He said, yeah but we have so much critical infrastructure the risks to United States are higher. So we have to be careful about how we use security as an offensive weapon, you know? And now you're seeing the future of war involves security and what's going on in Ukraine. It's a whole different ballgame. >> It is, and the scales always tip towards the adversary, not towards the defender, because you have to be right every single time. They have to be right once. >> Yeah. And, to the other point, about bad user behavior. It's going now beyond the board level, to it's everybody's responsibility. >> That's right. >> And everybody's sort of aware of it, everybody's been hacked. And, that's where it being such a complicated topic is problematic. >> It is, and it's actually, what got us this far will not get us to where we need to get to if we don't simplify security radically. You know? The experience has to be almost invisible. And what used to be the case was sophistication had to get to a certain level, for efficacy to go up. But now, that sophistication has turned to complexity. And there's an inverse relationship between complexity and efficacy. So the simpler you make security, the more effective it gets. And so I'll give you an example. We have this great kind of innovation we've done around passwordless, right? Everyone hates passwords. You shouldn't have passwords in 2023. But, when you get to passwordless security, not only do you reduce a whole lot of friction for the user, you actually make the system safer. And that's what you need to do, is you have to make it simpler while making it more effective. And, I think that's what the future is going to hold. >> Yeah, and CISOs tell me that they're, you know zero trust before the pandemic was like, yeah, yeah zero trust. And now it's like a mandate. >> Yeah. >> Every CISO you talk to says, yes we're implementing a zero trust architecture. And a big part of that is that, if they can confirm zero trust, they can get to market a lot faster with revenue generating or critical projects. And many projects as we know are being pushed back, >> Yeah. >> you know? 'Cause of the macro. But, projects that drive revenue and value they want to accelerate, and a zero trust confirmation allows people to rubber stamp it and go faster. >> And the whole concept of zero trust is least privileged access, right? But what we want to make sure that we get to is continuous assessment of least privileged access, not just a one time at login. >> Dave: 'Cause things change so frequently. >> So, for example, if you happen to be someone that's logged into the system and now you start doing some anomalous behavior that doesn't sound like Dave, we want to be able to intercept, not just do it at the time that you're authenticating Dave to come in. >> So you guys got a good business. I mentioned the macro before. >> Yeah. >> The big theme is consolidating redundant vendors. So a company with a portfolio like Cisco's obviously has an advantage there. You know, you guys had great earnings. Palo Alto is another company that can consolidate. Tom Gillis, great pickup. Guy's amazing, you know? >> Love Tom. >> Great respect. Just had a little webinar session with him, where he was geeking out with the analyst and so- >> Yeah, yeah. >> Learned a lot there. Now you guys have some news, at the event event with Mercedes? >> We do. >> Take us through that, and I want to get your take on hybrid work and what's happening there. But what's going on with Mercedes? >> Yeah so look, it all actually stems from the hybrid work story, which is the future is going to be hybrid, people are going to work in mixed mode. Sometimes you'll be in the office, sometimes at home, sometimes somewhere in the middle. One of the places that people are working more and more from is their cars. And connected cars are getting to be a reality. And in fact, cars sometimes become an extension of your home office. And many a times I have found myself in a parking lot, because I didn't have enough time to get home and I was in a parking lot taking a conference call. And so we've made that section easier, because we have now partnered with Mercedes. And they aren't the first partner, but they're a very important partner where we are going to have Webex available, through the connected car, natively in Mercedes. >> Ah, okay. So I could take a call, I can do it all the time. I find good service, pull over, got to take the meeting. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to be driving. I got to concentrate. >> That's right. >> You know, or sometimes, I'll have the picture on and it's not good. >> That's right. >> Okay, so it'll be through the console, and all through the internet? >> It'll be through the console. And many people ask me like, how's safety going to work over that? Because you don't want to do video calls while you're driving. Exactly right. So when you're driving, the video automatically turns off. And you'll have audio going on, just like a conference call. But the moment you stop and put it in park, you can have video turned on. >> Now, of course the whole hybrid work trend, we, seems like a long time ago but it doesn't, you know? And it's really changed the security dynamic as well, didn't it? >> It has, it has. >> I mean, immediately you had to go protect new endpoints. And those changes, I felt at the time, were permanent. And I think it's still the case, but there's an equilibrium now happening. People as they come back to the office, you see a number of companies are mandating back to work. Maybe the central offices, or the headquarters, were underfunded. So what's going on out there in terms of that balance? >> Well firstly, there's no unanimous consensus on the way that the future is going to be, except that it's going to be hybrid. And the reason I say that is some companies mandate two days a week, some companies mandate five days a week, some companies don't mandate at all. Some companies are completely remote. But whatever way you go, you want to make sure that regardless of where you're working from, people can have an inclusive experience. You know? And, when they have that experience, you want to be able to work from a managed device or an unmanaged device, from a corporate network or from a Starbucks, from on the road or stationary. And whenever you do any of those things, we want to make sure that security is always handled, and you don't have to worry about that. And so the way that we say it is the company that created the VPN, which is Cisco, is the one that's going to kill it. Because what we'll do is we'll make it simple enough so that you don't, you as a user, never have to worry about what connection you're going to use to dial in to what app. You will have one, seamless way to dial into any application, public application, private application, or directly to the internet. >> Yeah, I got a love, hate with my VPN. I mean, it's protecting me, but it's in the way a lot. >> It's going to be simple as ever. >> Do you have kids? >> I do, I have a 12 year old daughter. >> Okay, so not quite high school age yet. She will be shortly. >> No, but she's already, I'm not looking forward to high school days, because she has a very, very strong sense of debate and she wins 90% of the arguments. >> So when my kids were that age, I've got four kids, but the local high school banned Wikipedia, they can't use Wikipedia for research. Many colleges, I presume high schools as well, they're banning Chat GPT, can't use it. Now at the same time, I saw recently on Medium a Wharton school professor said he's mandating Chat GPT to teach his students how to prompt in progressively more sophisticated prompts, because the future is interacting with machines. You know, they say in five years we're all going to be interacting in some way, shape, or form with AI. Maybe we already are. What's the intersection between AI and security? >> So a couple very, very consequential things. So firstly on Chat GPT, the next generation skill is going to be to learn how to go out and have the right questions to ask, which is the prompt revolution that we see going on right now. But if you think about what's happening in security, and there's a few areas which are, firstly 3,500 hundred vendors in this space. On average, most companies have 50 to 70 vendors in security. Not a single vendor owns more than 10% of the market. You take out a couple vendors, no one owns more than 5%. Highly fractured market. That's a problem. Because it's untenable for companies to go out and manage 70 policy engines. And going out and making sure that there's no contention. So as you move forward, one of the things that Chat GPT will be really good for is it's fundamentally going to change user experiences, for how software gets built. Because rather than it being point and click, it's going to be I'm going to provide an instruction and it's going to tell me what to do in natural language. Imagine Dave, when you joined a company if someone said, hey give Dave all the permissions that he needs as a direct report to Chuck. And instantly you would get all of the permissions. And it would actually show up in a screen that says, do you approve? And if you hit approve, you're done. The interfaces of the future will get more natural language kind of dominated. The other area that you'll see is the sophistication of attacks and the surface area of attacks is increasing quite exponentially. And we no longer can handle this with human scale. You have to handle it in machine scale. So detecting breaches, making sure that you can effectively and quickly respond in real time to the breaches, and remediate those breaches, is all going to happen through AI and machine learning. >> So, I agree. I mean, just like Amazon turned the data center into an API, I think we're now going to be interfacing with technology through human language. >> That's right. >> I mean I think it's a really interesting point you're making. Now, from a security standpoint as well, I mean, the state of the art today in my email is be careful, this person's outside your organization. I'm like, yeah I know. So it's a good warning sign, but it's really not automated in any way. So two part question. One is, can AI help? You know, with the phishing, obviously it can, but the bad guys have AI too. >> Yeah. >> And they're probably going to be smarter than I am about using it. >> Yeah, and by the way, Talos is our kind of threat detection and response >> Yes. >> kind of engine. And, they had a great kind of piece that came out recently where they talked about this, where Chat GPT, there is going to be more sophistication of the folks that are the bad actors, the adversaries in using Chat GPT to have more sophisticated phishing attacks. But today it's not something that is fundamentally something that we can't handle just yet. But you still need to do the basic hygiene. That's more important. Over time, what you will see is attacks will get more bespoke. And in order, they'll get more sophisticated. And, you will need to have better mechanisms to know that this was actually not a human being writing that to you, but it was actually a machine pretending to be a human being writing something to you. And that you'll have to be more clever about it. >> Oh interesting. >> And so, you will see attacks get more bespoke and we'll have to get smarter and smarter about it. >> The other thing I wanted to ask you before we close is you're right on. I mean you take the top security vendors and they got a single digit market share. And it's like it's untenable for organizations, just far too many tools. We have a partner at ETR, they do quarterly survey research and one of the things they do is survey emerging technology companies. And when we look at in the security sector just the number of emerging technology companies that are focused on cybersecurity is as many as there are out there already. And so, there's got to be consolidation. Maybe that's through M & A. I mean, what do you think happens? Are company's going to go out of business? There's going to be a lot of M & A? You've seen a lot of companies go private. You know, the big PE companies are sucking up all these security companies and may be ready to spit 'em out and go back public. How do you see the landscape? You guys are obviously an inquisitive company. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think there will be a little bit of everything. But the biggest change that you'll see is a shift that's going to happen with an integrated platform, rather than point solution vendors. So what's going to happen is the market's going to consolidate towards very few, less than a half a dozen, integrated platforms. We believe Cisco is going to be one. Microsoft will be one. There'll be others over there. But these, this platform will essentially be able to provide a unified kind of policy engine across a multitude of different services to protect multiple different entities within the organization. And, what we found is that platform will also be something that'll provide, through APIs, the ability for third parties to be able to get their technology incorporated in, and their telemetry ingested. So we certainly intend to do that. We don't believe, we are not arrogant enough to think that every single new innovation will be built by us. When there's someone else who has built that, we want to make sure that we can ingest that telemetry as well, because the real enemy is not the competitor. The real enemy is the adversary. And we all have to get together, so that we can keep humanity safe. >> Do you think there's been enough collaboration in the industry? I mean- >> Jeetu: Not nearly enough. >> We've seen companies, security companies try to monetize private data before, instead of maybe sharing it with competitors. And so I think the industry can do better there. >> Well I think the industry can do better. And we have this concept called the security poverty line. And the security poverty line is the companies that fall below the security poverty line don't have either the influence or the resources or the know how to keep themselves safe. And when they go unsafe, everyone else that communicates with them also gets that exposure. So it is in our collective interest for all of us to make sure that we come together. And, even if Palo Alto might be a competitor of ours, we want to make sure that we invite them to say, let's make sure that we can actually exchange telemetry between our companies. And we'll continue to do that with as many companies that are out there, because actually that's better for the market, that's better for the world. >> The enemy of the enemy is my friend, kind of thing. >> That's right. >> Now, as it relates to, because you're right. I mean I, I see companies coming up, oh, we do IOT security. I'm like, okay, but what about cloud security? Do you that too? Oh no, that's somebody else. But, so that's another stove pipe. >> That's a huge, huge advantage of coming with someone like Cisco. Because we actually have the entire spectrum, and the broadest portfolio in the industry of anyone else. From the user, to the device, to the network, to the applications, we provide the entire end-to-end story for security, which then has the least amount of cracks that you can actually go out and penetrate through. The biggest challenges that happen in security is you've got way too many policy engines with way too much contention between the policies from these different systems. And eventually there's a collision course. Whereas with us, you've actually got a broad portfolio that operates as one platform. >> We were talking about the cloud guys earlier. You mentioned Microsoft. They're obviously a big competitor in the security space. >> Jeetu: But also a great partner. >> So that's right. To my opinion, the cloud has been awesome as a first line of defense if you will. But the shared responsibility model it's different for each cloud, right? So, do you feel that those guys are working together or will work together to actually improve? 'Cause I don't see that yet. >> Yeah so if you think about, this is where we feel like we have a structural advantage in this, because what does a company like Cisco become in the future? I think as the world goes multicloud and hybrid cloud, what'll end up happening is there needs to be a way, today all the CSPs provide everything from storage to computer network, to security, in their own stack. If we can abstract networking and security above them, so that we can acquire and steer any and all traffic with our service providers and steer it to any of those CSPs, and make sure that the security policy transcends those clouds, you would actually be able to have the public cloud economics without the public cloud lock-in. >> That's what we call super cloud Jeetu. It's securing the super cloud. >> Yeah. >> Hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Really appreciate you coming on our editorial program. >> Such a pleasure. >> All right, great to see you again. >> Cheers. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Vellante with David Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We'll be back, right after this short break from MWC '23 live, in the Fira, in Barcelona. (bright music resumes) (music fades out)

(upbeat music) >> Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone welcome back to the theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live! Europe 2019. I'm John Furrier and my co-host Stu Miniman, Dave Vellante is out there as well co-hosting this week. Our next guest is John Apostolopoulos who's the VP and CTO for the Enterprise Networking Business, Unit Lab Director for the Innovation Labs. Here to talk with us about AI and some great innovations. John thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for inviting me, pleasure to be here. >> So, Cisco has some big announcements, the messages coming together certainly the bridge for the future, bridge for tomorrow, whatever the phrase is. You know, kind of looking at that new world connecting on premise, cloud, ACI anywhere, hyper-flex anywhere, lot of complexity, being mis-tracked the way with software, separate from the V-Comp from the hardware, lot of scale in the cloud and IoT and all around the edge. So software is a big part of this. >> Oh yes. >> So can't help but think, okay complexity, scale, you see Facebook using machine learning. Machine learning and AI operations now, a real conversation for Cisco. >> Yeah. >> Talk about what that is, how are you guys looking at AI, and machine learning in particular, it's been around for a while. What's your thoughts on Cisco's position and opportunity? >> Sure, yeah. Cisco's been investing or using AI for many, many years. What happens to Cisco, like most companies, we haven't really talked about the machine learning as a term because machine learning is a tool used to solve different problems. So you talk about, what are the customer problems we have? And then we saw, no matter how good our solution is, but we haven't really talked about the details about the how but, we've using at Cisco, like myself from past careers and so forth for many many years some machine learning. Security has been using it for multiple decades for example. >> And where's the use case for machine learnering, because it's one of things where there's different versions and flavors of machine learning. Machine learning we know powers AI and data feeds machine learning, so do you have all these dependencies and all these things going on, how do you...how should someone think about sorting through machine learning? >> Well machine learner itself that term is a very broad term, it's almost as big as computer science, right? So that's where a lot of the confusion comes in. But what happens is you can look up what types of problems we want to solve, and when you try to look at what types of problems we want to solve, some of them...for example some problems you can exploit the fact that the laws of physics that apply and if the laws of physics apply, you should use those laws. We can either figure out that if we drop this, this will fall at some speed by measuring it and using a machine learning or we have gravitational force and friction with the air and re-account for that and figure it out. So the many ways to solve these problems and we want to choose the best method for solving each one of them. >> And when the people think about Cisco, the first reaction isn't "Oh machine learning... innovator." What are you guys using machine learning for? Where has it been successful? What are you investing in? Where's the innovation? >> Sure sure, so there's a lot of problems here that come into play. If you look at...if you look at a customer problems, one example is all the digital disruption. We have on the order of a million devices, new devices coming on to the network every hour throughout the world. Now, what are those devices? How should you treat them? With machine learning we're able to identify what the devices are and then figure out what the network caches should be. For instance when IoT device you want to protect it, protect it from others. Another big topic is operations. As you know people spend, I think it was The Gardner identified that people spend about sixty-billion dollars per year on operations costs, why is it so much? Because most of the operations are manual, about 95% manual, which also means that these changes are slow and error-prone. What we do there is we basically use machine learning to do intelligent automation and we get a whole bunch of insights about what's happening and use that to drive intelligent automation. You may have heard about Assurance, which was announced at Cisco Live, one year ago at Barcelona and both in the campus with DNA Center we announced Cisco DNA Center Assurance and the data center went out, network and network analytic engine. And what both of these do is they look at what's happened to the network, they apply machine learning to identify patterns and from those patterns, identify, is there a problem, where's the problem? How can we...what's the root cause and then how can we solve that problem quickly? >> John, can you help us connect where this fits in a multi-cloud environment? Because what we've seen the past couple of years is when we talk about managing the network, a lot of what I might be in charge of managing, is really outside of my purview and therefore I could imagine something like ML is going to be critically important because I'm not going to be touching it but therefore I still need to have data about it and a lot of that needs to happen. >> Yeah, well one of the places ML helps with multi-cloud is the fact you need to figure out which...where to send your packets, and this comes with SD-WAN. So with SD-WAN we often have multiple paths available to us and let's say with the move to Office365, people are using the SaaS service and they want to have very good interactivity. One of the things we realized is that by carefully selecting which path we can use, at the branch and the campus too, we could get a 40% reduction in the latency. So that's a way we choose which colo or which region or which side of Office365 to send the packets to, to dramatically reduce latency. >> What's the role of data? Because when you think about it, you know, moving a packet from point A to point B, that's networking. Storage acts differently 'cause you store data data's got to come back out and be discovered. Now if you have this horizontal scalability for cloud, edge, core coming into the middle, get of the data 'cause machine learning needs the data, good data, not dirty data you need clean data. How do you see that evolving, how should customers then be thinking about preparing for either low-hanging use-cases. Just what's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Yeah well the example you gave is a very interesting example. You described how you need to get data from one point to another, for instance, for my device to a data center with applications over the cloud. And you also mentioned how the many things between. What we care about, not necessarily the application data, we care about... You know we want to have the best network performance so your applications are working as well as possible. In that case we want to have an understanding of what's happening across a path so we want to pull to telemetry in all kinds of contexts to be able to understand, is there problem, where's the problem, what is it, and how to solve it. And that's what Assurance does. We pull this data from the access points the switches, from the routers, we pour, pull in all kinds of contextual information to get a rich understanding of the situation, and try to identify if there's a problem or not, and then how to solve it. >> Its the classic behavioral, contextual, paradigm of data but now you guys are looking at it from a network perspective and as the patterns changed the applications centric, programmability of the network, the traffic patterns are changing. Hence the announcements here but intent-based networking and hyper-flexed anywhere. This is now a new dynamic. Talk about the impact of that from an AI perspective. How are you guys getting out front on that? It's not just North, South, East, West, it's pretty much everywhere. The patterns are, could be application specific at any given point, on a certain segment of a network, I mean it's complex. >> Yeah, its complex. One of the really nice things about intent-based network and those, it fits in really nicely and that was by design, 'cause what happens with intent-based networking, as you know, a user expresses some intent if it's something they want to do. I want to securely onboard the SIoT device, and then it gets activated in the network, and then we use Assurance to see if it's doing the right thing. But what happens is that Assurance part, that's basically gathering visibility and insight in terms of what's happening. That's using machine learning to understand what's happening in the network across all these different parts that you mentioned. And then, what happens is we take those insights and then we make intelligent actions and that's part of the activation. So this...with intent based network in this feedback loop that we have directly ties with using the data for getting insights and then for activation, for intelligent actions. >> John, always want to get the update on the innovation lab, is there anything particular here at the show or, what's new that you can share? >> So we're looking at extending IBN to the cloud, to multi-cloud, to multiple devices so there's a lot of really fascinating work happening there. I believe you're going to be talking to one of my colleagues later, too, T.K. He's, I think, hopefully going to talk about some of the machine learning that's been done and that's already prioritized as you know in encrypted thread analytics. That's an example of where we use machine learning to identify if there's malware in encrypted traffic. Which is really a fascinating problem. >> That's a hard problem to solve. I'm looking forward to that conversation. >> So some members of Cisco, Dave McGrew, in particular, Cisco Fellow, started working on that problem four and a half years ago. Because of his work with other colleagues, he was able and they were able to come up with a solution. So it was a very complicated problem as you saw but through the use of machine learning and many years of investment, plus the fact that Cisco's access to Talos which has, they know the threats throughout the world. They're a list of data in terms of all kinds of threats that's massive. That's pretty powerful. >> The volume, that's where machine learning shines. I mean you see the amount of volume of data coming in, that's where it could do some heavy lifting. >> Exactly, that's one of Cisco's strengths. The fact that we have this massive view on all the threats throughout the world and we can bring it to bear. >> Network security foundation only just creates so much value for apps. Final question for you, for the folks watching, what's in you opinion the most important story here at Cicso Live Barcelona, that people should be paying attention to? >> I think how we are trying to extend across all these different domains and make it like one network for our customers. This is still a journey and it's going to take time but with intent based networking we can do that. We're going across campus, WAN, data center to multi-cloud. >> How hard is cross domain, just put it in perspective. Cross domains reversal and having visibility into these, from a latency, from a physics standpoint, how hard is it? >> It's quite hard, there's all kinds of technical challenges but there's even other sorts of challenges. This is WiFi, right? IEEE 802.11 defines the QoS standard for wireless and that's completely different than how the internet group ITEF defined it for wired. So even between wireless and wired, there's a lot of work that has to be done and Cisco's leading that effort. >> And having all that data. Great to have you on John, thanks for spending the time and demystifying machine learning and looking forward to this encrypted understanding with machine learning, that's a hard problem, looking forward to digging into that. Again, truly, the breakthroughs are happening with machine learning and adding values with application centric world. It's all about the data, it's theCUBE bringing you the data from Barcelona, I'm John with Stu Mini, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Cisco Live! in Barcelona. I'm Dave Vellante with my cohost, Stu Miniman. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is day one of a three day segments that we're doing here at Cisco Live Barcelona. Bret Hartman is here as the CTO of Cisco Security Group. And we think of CUBE alone from way back, Bret. >> Way back, way back. >> Great to see you again. >> You bet. >> Thanks for coming on. So we're here to talk about Workload Security. >> Yep. >> What is that? What is Workload Security? >> What is Workload Security? So it's really the whole idea of how people secure applications today because applications aren't built the way they used to be. It's not the idea that you have an application that's just sitting running on a server anymore. Applications are actually built out of lots and lots of components. Those components may run in a typical data center, they may run in a cloud, they may be part of a SaaS solution, so you got all these different components that need to be plugged together. So the question is how do you possibly secure that when you have all these pieces, containers, and virtualized workloads all working together? That's the big question. >> Written oftentimes by different people with different skillsets. >> Different people, different services, yeah, open source, right. So all that somehow has to come together and you have to figure out how to secure it. That's question. >> And so what did you used to do with applications security? You used to just kind of figure it out at the end and bolt it on, is that? >> Pretty much, I mean, historically, people would do their best to secure their application. It would be kind of monolithic or three-tier, the web tier, app tier, database and that sort of thing. And then you'd also depend a lot on the infrastructure. You'd depend on firewalls, you'd depend on things on the edge to protect the application. The problem is there's not so much of an edge anymore when in that world I described you can't really rely so much on that infrastructure anymore. That's the shift of the world we know of. >> So what's the prescription today? How do you solve that problem? >> You know, there's a lot of ad hoc work. And so this whole notion, a lot of people talk about devsecops these days or sometimes it's devopssec, or there's all these different versions of that. But the whole idea of the devops world, the way people build applications today, and the security world, the security ops world are either coming together or colliding or crashing, right. And so it's getting those things to work. So right now, the way devops and secops works today is not particularly well. Lot of manual work, a lot of kind ad hoc scripts. But I will say probably over the last year, there's a lot more awareness that we need to figure this out to be able to merge these two things together. That's kind of the next stage. >> Bret, bring us inside that a little bit because if you listen to the devops people it's we got to do CICD. >> Yep. >> We need to move fast. And there was the myth out there, oh well, am I fast or am I secure? >> Right. >> I was reading some research recently and they said actually that's false trade off. Actually you can move fast and be more secure. But you raised a risk because you said if these are two separate things, and they're not working in lob step and it's not secure every step of the way in that part of your methodology then you're definitely going to break security. >> That's exactly right, and there's a basic question of how much of a responsibility the developers have to provide security anyway? I mean, historically, we don't really necessarily trust developers to care that much about security. Now as to your point, these days without the way people develop software today, they need to care more about 'em. But typically, it was the security operations folks. That was their responsibility. The developers could do whatever they wanted and the security folks kept them safe. Well, again, as you said you can't do that anymore. So the developers have to pull security into their development processes. >> Yeah, when I go to some of the container shows or the serverless shows, the people in the security space are like chanting up on stage, security is everyone's responsibility. >> Right. >> Which hasn't traditionally been the case. >> It has not, and so it's really what companies are working on now is how do the security operations people fit into that development process? And what are the tools? And again, it's a long, complicated set of infrastructure and other sorts of tools, but that's sort of the point. At Cisco, we're really working on evolving the security products and technology, so exactly it fits into that process, that's the goal. >> So I'm sure there's a maturity model, or a spectrum >> Yeah >> When you go out and talk to customers. Maybe we could poke at that a little bit. >> Sure. >> Describe that. So you're really talking about a world where it's team a sport. The regime is everybody's got to be involved. But oftentimes they're working for different people. >> Yep. >> Some are working for the CIO maybe some the CTO, some the CSO, maybe some other line of business. >> Different companies, contractors, providers, all that. >> Yeah. Right, partners. So what does that spectrum look like, and how are you helping customers take that journey? >> Yeah, so not surprisingly, companies that are born in the cloud, they're like this is old news. It's like this how they deal with it every day. A lot of those companies have the lower risk deployments anyway. The organizations that are really early days on this are the ones that have lots of existing investment in all that data center stuff. And they're trying to figure out how this is going to work. You talk to a typical bank, for example, their core business processes of how they protect money, they're not going to move to the cloud, right? So how did they evolve? And they, by the way, they have to deal with compliance requirements on all this other stuff. They can't play too fast and loose. So that's an example of something that's early days. But they are also working a lot in terms of evolving, moving to the cloud and having to be able to support that too. >> So when you engage with clients, I presume you try to assess kind of where they're at. >> Yep. >> And then figure out where they want to go and then how to best get 'em there. So what is Cisco's role in helping them get there? >> And so first of all, of course I represent the business group that builds the security products, right. So a lot of this and the reason why my group is so interested in this, and our security group at Cisco is so interested, is this really represents the future of security. This idea of having it much more embedded into the applications as opposed to purely being in the infrastructure. So what we're seeing for typical customers, like if I roll the clock back a year ago, and we talked about things like devsecops, they were like yeah, kind of an interesting problem, the one we just talked about, but it's like not quite ready for it. Now this is, I think every CSO, Chief Security Office, I talked to, very aware, have active engagements about how they're working with their devops groups. And are actively seeking for tools and technology to support them. So to me that's a good sign that it's... The world is moving in this direction. And as a security vendor, we need to evolve too. So that means things like evolving the way firewalls work, for example. It's not just about firewalls sitting at the edge. It means distributing firewall functionality. It means moving functionality into the pubic cloud, like AWS, and Google, and Azure. It means moving security up into the application itself. So it's a very different world than just a box sitting on the edge. That's the journey, and we're on that journey, too. And the industry is. I mean, it's not a solved problem for exactly how to do that. >> If we go back the early days, we were talking about that when theCUBE started in 2010, security really wasn't a board level topic back then. >> True. Or at least not for every company. There was certainly some companies >> Yeah, for sure. >> But now it's like you're right, every company cares about it. >> Right, and it comes up at every quarterly meeting, certainly every annual meeting. So what should ... How should the technical C side, the CIO, CTO, if they're invited into the board meeting, how should they be communicating to the board about security? >> That's a tough one. >> What should be the key messages? >> And to your point, I mean typically these days for most major corporations in the world, the Chief Security Officer is often presenting at every board meeting because cyber risk is such a big, big part of that risk. And this is a challenge, right, because to try to communicate all the tech required to manage that risk to a board, not so easy, right. It's like trying count how many malware threats stopped. It's like what'll they do with that? If you talk to our Chief Security Officer, Steve Martino here at Cisco, I mean, he talks a lot about first of all, having visibility. Being able to show how much visibility. How much can we see? And then how much can we control and show that the organization is making more and more progress in terms of just seeing what's out there so you don't have broke devices, and then putting controls in place. So you need some pretty big animal pictures, communication of being able to manage that, but you can never come in and say, yep guaranteed, we're secure. Or give it a number, it kind of has no meaning. >> But strategy, visibility, response mechanisms, preparedness, what the response protocol is that's the level of, it sounds like >> It's showing maturity of the >> level of communications. >> processes, really, and the ability to take that on as opposed to getting into the weeds of all the metrics that, it just don't. >> So, Bret, we've had multi vendors for a long time and even in the network space there's a lot of different pieces of the environment. How is multi cloud different from a security standpoint? >> Yeah, so the issue there, and kind of what I was hinting at, we talk about the way people build applications is that all those vendors, they all do security differently. Every one does security differently. It's all good, I mean. And for example, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, they're all making massive investments to secure their own clouds, which is awesome, but they're all also different. And then you have the SaaS vendors. You talk to Salesforce, Dropbox and Box, they have different security mechanisms. And then, of course, you have different ones in the enterprise. So from a Chief Security Officer's standpoint, reporting to the board, they want one policy. We want to protect sensitive corporate data. And then you have maybe 100 different security policies across all this mess. That's why it's different. Trying to manage the complexity and get the policies to work and get, of course all those platforms, you can't force it all to be the same. So a lot of what we're working on are really tools to do that. So you can, fitting back into that devops process, you can define high-level policies of how do you control that data and then map it to all those different platforms. That's the goal, that's how we get there, make progress. >> So you had a picture up in the keynotes today. It had users, devices kind of on one side of the network. And then applications and data on the other side of the network. And then the network in the middle and all those pieces fitting in. How does that affect how you think about security? We've talked a lot about applications, securing the applications. Are you thinking similarly about the data, or the devices, or even the users? Bad user behavior will trump great security every time. Where do those other pieces fit into the context? >> Well, of course, that's a big reason why we just acquired Duo Security. >> Yikes. >> Very significant acquisition there, which is exactly around trust of human beings as well as the devices. A key component that Cisco didn't have before that and fits in exactly to that point. I was a key strategic piece of that, of trust, defining trust. And yeah, that fits in. Obviously we already do lots on the device side. We do things like the Identity Service Engine to enforce access with the network. We have more and more on the applications side. Not so much in the data side yet. I mean, but as we move up the stack into the application it'll be around data too. But the network is a natural conversions point there. And the whole idea of having security embedded right into that network is of course why I'm at Cisco, right. That security is a critical thing that needs to be embedded in everything that Cisco does. >> Well, you've got an advantage in that you can do the ePacket inspection, you're in the network. I mean, that's fundamental. >> Security is really all about visibility. You don't have visibility, you have nothing. And Cisco has this incredible footprint, incredible telemetry across the world. I mean, all the statistics around Talos you probably seen. It's huge, right. And that's a big advantage that we have to really provide security. >> Awesome. Well, Brent, thank you for coming back on theCUBE. It's great to see you again. >> My pleasure. >> 'Preciate the update. >> Glad to see you again. >> All right, keep it right there everybody. Stu Miniman and Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE from Cisco Live! Barcelona. Stay right there, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo, Live Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Sisqo. Live in Barcelona, Day Volant with my co host to Mina and you're watching the Cube, the leader in live coverage of Day one of a three day segments that we're doing here at Cisco Live. Barcelona Bread Hartmann is here is the CTO of Cisco Security Group and we think a Cube alum from way back, way, back way back. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. So we're gonna talk about workload security? What's that? What is working? What >> is workload security? So it's really the whole idea of how people secure applications today because applications aren't built the way they used to be. You know, it's not the idea that you have an application that's just sitting running on a server anymore. Applications are actually built out of lots of lots of components. Those components may run in a typical data center. They may run in the cloud. It may be part of a sass solution. So you got all these different components that need to be plugged together. So questions How do you possibly secure that when you have all these pieces? Containers, virtualized, workloads, all working together? That's the big question >> written often times by different people. >> Different people's services. Yeah, Matt Open source. Right. So all that somehow has to come together and you have to figure out how to secure. That's the question. >> So what did you used to do with applications? Securities Just kind of figured out the end and bolted on. >> Pretty much. I mean, yeah, historically, people would do their best to secure their application. It would be kind of monolithic, you know, or, you know, three tier yet of, you know, the Web here after your database, that sort of thing. And then you'd also depend a lot on the infrastructure. Depend on firewalls. You depend on thing's on the edge to protect the application. The problem is, there's not so much of an edge anymore. When in that world I described you can't really relies so much on that infrastructure anymore. That's the shift of the world. We know. >> Also, what's the prescription today? How do you solve that problem? >> You know, there's a lot of ad hoc work, and so this whole notion. A lot of people talk about Deb set cops these days, or sometimes it's, you know, Deb Opsec girl. But you know, there's always different versions of that. But the whole idea of the de bop swirl the way people build applications today and the security world, its security ops world are coming, either coming together are colliding or crashing, right? And so it's it's getting those things to work. So right now, the way Deb ops and SEC cops works today is not particularly well, a lot of manual work. Ah, a lot of kind of ad hoc scripts, but I will say probably over the last year, there's a lot more awareness than we need to figure this out. To be able to merge these two things together. That's kind of the next day. >> Print one. Wanna bring us inside that a little bit because if you, you know, listen to the Dev ops people. It's you know, we've got a new C i. C. We need to move fast. And there was the myth out there. Oh, well do and my faster or am I secure? And, you know, I was reading some research recently. And they said, Actually, that's a false tradeoff. Actually, you can move fast and be more secure. But you raised a risk because you said if these are two separate things and they're not working in lob stacked and it's not secure every step of the way in that part of your methodology, then you're definitely >> going to security exactly right. And there's a basic question of how much of a responsibility that developers have to provide security anyway. I mean, historically, we don't really necessarily trust developers to care that much about security. Now, as to your point these days, without, you know the way people develop software today, they need to care more about it. But typically it was the security operations. Folks that was their responsibility of developers could do whatever they wanted, and the security folks kept them safe. Well, again, as you said, you can't do that anymore. So the developers have to pull security into their development processes. >> Yeah, when I go to some of the container shows or the surveillance shows, the people in the security space are like chanting up on state security is everyone's responsibility. It hasn't traditionally been the >> case it has not. And so it's really work. What companies are working on now is how to the security operations people fit into that development process and what are the tools? And again, it's a long, complicated set of infrastructure and other sorts of tools. But that's sort of the point that Cisco we're really working on on evolving the security products and technologies. So exactly it fits into that process. That's the goal. >> So I'm sure there's a maturity Mahler or a spectrum. When you talk to customers, maybe we could poke it that a little bit sort of described that. So you're really just really talking about a world where it's team sport. The regime is everybody's gotta gotta be involved. But but oftentimes that, working for different people, someone working for the C e O. Maybe some the CTO from the sea so different companies contract, there's >> providers all >> that right partners. So so what is that spectrum look like? And how are you helping customers, you know, take that journey. >> So not surprisingly, companies that are born in the cloud they're like, This is old news. It's like, This is how they, how they deal with it every day. They A lot of those companies have lower risk deployments. Anyway, the organizations that are really early days on this, or the ones that have lots of existing investment and all that data center stuff, and they're trying to figure out how this is gonna work. You know, you talk to a typical bank, for example, you know, their core business processes of how they protect money. They're not going to move to the cloud, right? So how did they evolve? And they, by the way, they have to do with compliance requirements on all this other stuff they can't They can't play too fast and loose, so that's an example of something that's early days. But they are also working a lot in terms of Ah, evolving, moving to the cloud and having TTO be able to support that, too. >> So when you engage with with Cline, I presume you're tryingto assess kind of where they're at and then figure out where they want to go, and then how to best get him there. So, yeah, what is Cisco's role in helping him get? >> And so first of all, of course, I represent, you know, the business group that builds the security products, right? So a lot of this, and the reason why my group is so interested in this and and our security Francisco so interested is this really represents the future of security. This idea of having a much more embedded into the applications is supposed to purely being in the infrastructure. So what we're seeing for typical customers, like, if I roll the clock back a year ago and we talked about things like Deb set cops, they're like, Yeah, kind of an interesting problem. The one we just talked about what it's like, not quite ready for it now. This is, I think, every C so you know, chief security officer, I talked to very aware, have active engagements about how they're working with their nabobs groups and are actively seeking for tools and technology to support them. So to me, that's a good sign that it's you know, the world is moving in this direction, and as a security vendor, we need to evolve, too. So that means things like evolving the way firewalls work. For example, it's not just about firewall sitting at the edge. It means distributing firewall functionality. It means moving functionality into the public cloud like a Ws and Google and Azure. It means moving security up into the application itself. So it's a very different world than just a box sitting on the edge. That's that's the journey. And we're on that journey, too. And the industry is I mean, it's not a solve problem for exactly how to do >> that. If we go back to the early days were talking about, you know, that when the Cube started twenty ten, Security really wasn't a board level topic back then. >> It's at least not for every company. There's certainly company. Yeah, but not now. It's like you're right. Every company cares about it, >> right, and it comes up. But every quarterly knowing, you know, certainly every every annual meeting. Um, so So what? Should Sasha, the technical Seaside CEO CTO. If they're invited into the board meeting, how should they be communicating to the board about security, what >> it's run its? And and to your point, I mean typically these days for most major corporations in the world, the chief security officer is often presenting at every board meeting because cyber risk it's such a big, big part of that risk. And this is a challenge, right? Because to try to communicate all the tech required to manage that risk to aboard Not so easy, right? It's like, yeah, China count. How many now, where threats stopped. It's like, what do they do with that? If you talk to our our chief security officer, Steve Martino here, it's Cisco. I mean, he talks a lot about, first of all, having visibility, you know, being able to show how much visibility, how much can we see? And then how much can we control and show that the organization is making more and more progress in terms of just seeing what's out there so you don't know broke devices and then putting controls in place? So you need some pretty. You know, the big animal pictures communication of being able to manage that. But you can never come in and say, Yep, guaranteed. We're secure, you know, are given a number. It kind of has no meaning >> but strategy. Visibility, response. You know, mechanisms preparedness. What? The response. You know, protocol is that that's the level of it sounds like >> showing, you know, maturity of the process is really on the ability to take that on a supposed to getting into the weeds of, you know, all the metrics that stone. >> So we've had multi vendor for a long time, and even then, the network space, there's a lot of different pieces of the environment. How is multi cloud different from a security >> standpoint? Yeah, so the issue there and kind of what I was hinting that we talk about the way people build applications, is that all those vendors, they all do security differently. Everyone that scary differently s'all good, I mean and for example, Amazon, Google, Microsoft. They're all making massive investments to secure their own clouds, which is awesome, but they're always also different. And then you have the SAS vendors. You talked to sales force drop box in box. They have different security mechanisms. And then, of course, you have different ones in the enterprise. So from a chief security officer standpoint reporting to the board, they want one policy. You know, we want to protect sensitive corporate data, and then you have maybe one hundred different security policies across all these, All this mess. That's why it's different trying to manage the complexity and get the policies, toe work and get enforced across all those platforms. You can't force it all to be the same. So a lot of what we're working on, a really tools to do that so you can fitting back into that develops process. You, Khun, define high level policies of how do you control that data and then map it? Toe all those different platforms? That's that's the gold. That's how we that's how we get there. Make progress. >> She had a picture up in the keynotes today. It had users. Device is kind of on one side of the network and then applications in data on the other side of the network and then the network in the middle right and all those pieces fitting in. How does that affect how you think about security? We've talked a lot about application securing the application. Are you thinking similarly about the data or the devices, or even the users? You know bad user behavior will trump great security every time. Where do those other pieces fit into the context? >> Of course, that's a big reason why we just acquired duo security. You know, very significant acquisition there, which is exactly around trust of human beings as well as the device, is a key component that Sisko didn't have before that and fits in exactly to that point. I was a key strategic piece of that of trust, defining trust, and you know that it's in. Obviously, we already do lots on the device side. You know, we do things like identity service engine to enforce access. You know, with the network, we have more and more on the application side. Not so much in the data side yet, I mean, but as we move up the sack and of the application, it'll be around data, too. But the network is a natural convergence point there, and the whole idea of having security embedded right into that network is, of course, you know why. Why Francisco, right, that's security is a critical thing that needs to be embedded and everything that Cisco does. >> Well, you've got an advantage and that you could do the deep packet inspection you hear in the network. I mean, that's what >> visit bill I mean, Maturity is is really all about visibility. Don't visibility of nothing. And Cisco has this incredible foot print. Incredible telemetry across the world. I mean, all the statistics around Talos you probably seen it's a huge right and that's that's. Ah, that's a big advantage that we have to really provide security. >> Right? Awesome. Well, Bret, thanks for for coming back on The Cube was great to see you. My pleasure, tuk. Alright, alright. Keep right there, Everybody Stupid Open day! Volante, You're watching the cue from Cisco Live, Barcelona! Stay right there. We'LL be right back.

live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvents 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services inhale and their ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone this the cube live day 3 coverage of Amazon Web Services AWS reinvent 2018 we're here with two cents Dave six years we've been covering Amazon every single reinvent since they've had this event except for the first year and you know we've been following AWS really since its inception one of my startup said I was trying to launch and didn't ever got going years ago and he went easy to launch was still command-line and so we know all about it but what's really exciting is the global expansion of Amazon Web Services the impact that not only the commercial business but the public sector government changing the global landscape and the person who I've written about many times on Forbes and unhooking angle Theresa Carlson she's the chief a public sector vice president of Amazon Web Services public sector public sector great to see you hi hi John I checked great to be here again as always so the global landscape mean public sector used to be this a we talk to us many times do this do that yeah the digital environment and software development growth is changing all industries including public sector he's been doing a great job leading the charge the CIA one of the most pivotal deals when I asked Andy jassie directly and my one-on-one with them that this proudest moments one of them is the CIA deal when I talked to the top execs in sales Carla and other people in Amazon they point to that seminal moment with a CIA deal happen and now you got the DoD a lot of good stuff yeah what's do how do you top that how do you raise the bar well you know it still feels like day one even with all that work in that effort and those customers kind of going back to go forward in 2013 when we won the CIA opportunity they are just an amazing customer the entire community is really growing but there's so much more at this point that we're doing outside of that work which is being additive around the world and as you've always said John that was kind of a kind of a pivotal deal but now we're seeing so many of our government customers we now have customers at a hundred and seventy four countries and I have teams on the ground in 28 countries so we're seeing a global mood but you know at my breakfast this week we talked a lot about one of the big changes I've seen in the last like 18 months is state and local government where we're seeing actually states making a big move California Arizona New York Ohio Virginia so we're starting to see those states really make big moves and really looking at applications and solutions that can change that citizen services engagement and I achieve in these state local governments aren't real I won't say their course they're funded but they're not like funded like a financial services sector but that's women money they got to be very efficient clouds a perfect opportunity for them because they can be more productive I do a lot of good things I can and there's 20 new governor's coming on this year so we've had a lot of elections lots of new governors lots of new local council members coming in but governor's a lot of times you'll see a big shift when a governor comes in and takes over or if there's one that stays in and maintains you'll see kind of that program I was just in Arizona a couple weeks ago and the governor of Arizona has a really big fish toward modernization and utilization of information technology and the CIO of the state of Arizona is like awesome they're doing all this work transformative work with the government and then I was at Arizona State University the same day where we just announced a cloud Innovation Center for smart cities and I went around their campus and it's amazing they're using IOT everywhere you can go in there football stadium and you can see the movement of the people how many seats are filled where the parking spaces are how much water's been used where Sparky is their their backside I've got to be Sparky which was fed but you're seeing these kind of things and all of that revs on AWS and they're doing all the analytics and they're gonna continue to do that one for efficiency and knowledge but to also to protect their students and citizens and make them safer through the knowledge of data analytics you know to John's point about you know funding and sometimes constricted funding at state and local levels and even sometimes the federal levels yeah we talked about this at the public sector summit I wonder if you could comment Amazon in the early days help startups compete with big companies it gave them equivalent resources it seems like the distance between public sector and commercial is closing because of the cloud they're able to take advantage of resources at lower cost that they weren't able to before it's definitely becoming the new normal in governments for sure and we are seeing that gap closing this year 2018 for me was a year that I saw kind of big moves to cloud because in the early days it was website hosting kind of dipping their toes in this year we're talking about massive systems that are being moved to the cloud you know big re-architecting and design and a lot of people say well why do they do that that costs money well the reason is because they may have to Rio architect and design but then they get all the benefits of cloud through the things that examples this week new types of storage new types of databases at data analytics IOT machine learning because in the old model they're kind of just stagnated with where they were with that application so we're seeing massive moves with very large applications so that's kind of cool to see our customers and public sector making those big moves and then the outputs the outcome for citizens tax payers agencies that's really the the value and sometimes that's harder to quantify or justify in public sector but over the long term it's it's going to make a huge difference in services and one of the things I now said the breakfast was our work and something called helping out the agents with that ATO process the authority to operate which is the big deal and it cost a lot of money a lot of times long time and processes and we've been working with companies like smartsheet which we helped them do this less than 90 days to get go plow so now working with our partners like Talos and Rackspace and our own model that's one of the things you're also gonna see check and Jon you're taking your knowledge of the process trying to shrink that down could time wise excessive forward to the partners yes to help them through the journey these fast move fast that kind of just keep it going and that's really the goal because they get very frustrated if they build an application that takes forever to get that security that authority to operate because they can't really they can't move out into full production unless that's completed and this could make or break these companies these contracts are so big oh yeah I mean it's significant and they want to get paid for what they're doing and the good work but they also want to see the outcome and the results yeah I gotta ask you what's new on the infrastructure side we were in Bahrain for the region announcement exciting expansion there you got new clouds gov cloud east yeah that's up and running no that's been running announced customers are in there they're doing their dr their coop running applications we're excited yes that's our second region based on a hundred and eighty five percent year-over-year growth of DEFCON region west so it's that been rare at reading I read an article that was on the web from general Keith Alexander he wrote an op-ed on the rationale that the government's taking in the looking at the cloud and looking at the military look at the benefits for the country around how to do cloud yes you guys are also competing for the jet idea which is now it's not a single source contract but they want to have one robust consistent environment yeah a big advantage new analytics so between general Keith Alexander story and then the the public statement around this was do is actually outlined benefits of staying with one cloud how is that going what how's that Jedi deal going well there's there's two points I'd like to make them this first of all we are really proud of DoD they're just continuing to me and they're sticking with their model and it's not slowing them down everything happening around Jedi so the one piece yes Jedi is out there and they need to complete this transaction but the second part is we're just we're it's not slowing us down to work with DoD in fact we've had great meetings with DoD customers this week and they're actually launching really amazing cloud workloads now what's going to be key for them is to have a platform that they can consistently develop and launch new mission applications very rapidly and because they were kind of behind they their model right now is to be able to take rapid advantage of cloud computing for those warriors there's those war fighters out in the field that we can really help every day so I think general Alexander is spot on the benefits of the cloud are going to really merit at DoD I have to say as an analyst you know you guys can't talk about these big deals but when companies you know competitors can test them information becomes public so in the case of CI a IBM contested the judge wheeler ruling was just awesome reading and it underscored Amazon's lead at the time yeah at Forrest IBM to go out and pay two billion dollars for software the recent Oracle can contestant and the GAO is ruling there gave a lot of insights I would recommend go reading it and my takeaway was the the DoD Pentagon said a single cloud is more secure it's going to be more agile and ultimately less costly so that's that decision was on a very strong foundation and we got insight that we never would have been able to get had they not tested well and remember one of the points we were just talking earlier was the authority to operate that that ability to go through the security and compliance to get it launched and if you throw a whole bunch of staff at an organization if they they're struggling with one model how are they gonna get a hundred models all at once so it's important for DoD that they have a framework that they can do live in real first of all as a technical person and an operating system which is kind of my background is that it makes total sense to have that cohesiveness but the FBI gave a talk at your breakfast on Tuesday morning Christene Halverson yeah she's amazing and she pointed out the problems that they're having keep up with the bad actors and she said quote we are FBI is in a data crisis yes and she pointed out all the bad things that happened in Vegas the Boston Marathon bombing and the time it took to put the puzzle pieces together was so long and Amazon shrinks that down if post-event that's hard imagine what the DoD is to do in real time so this is pointing to a new model it's a new era and on that well and we you know one of the themes was tech4good and if you look at the FBI example it's a perfect example of s helping them move faster to do their mission and if they continue to do what they've always done which is use old technologies that don't scale buying things that they may never use or being able to test and try quickly and effectively test Belfast recover and then use this data an FBI I will tell you it is brilliant how they're the name of this program sandcastle one Evan that they've used to actually do all this data and Linux and she talked about time to mission time to catch the bad guys time to share that analysis and data with other groups so that they could quickly disseminate and get to the heart of the matter and not sit there and say weight on it weight on this bad guy while we go over here and change time to value completely being that Amazon is on whether it's commercial or government I talk about values great you guys could have a short term opportunity to nail all these workloads but in the Amazon fashion there's always a wild card no I was so excited Dave and I interviewed Lockheed Martin yesterday yeah and this whole ground station thing is so cool because it's kind of like a Christopher Columbus moment yeah because the world isn't flat doesn't have an edge no it's wrong that lights can power everything there's spaces involved there's space company yes space force right around the corner yep you're in DC what's the excitement around all this what's going on we surprised a lot of with that announcement Lockheed Martin and DigitalGlobe we even had DigitalGlobe in with Andy when we talked about AWS ground station and Lockheed Martin verge and the benefit of this is two amazing companies coming together a tub yes that knows cloud analytics air storage and now we're taking a really hard problem with satellites and making it almost as a service as well as Lockheed doing their cube stats and making sure that there is analysis of every satellite that moves that all points in time with net with no disruption we're going to bring that all together for our customers for a mission that is so critical at every level of government research commercial entities and it's going to help them move fast and that is the key move very fast every mission leader you talk to you that has these kind of predators will say we have to move faster and that's our goal bringing commercial best practices I know you got a run we got less than a minute left but I want you to do a quick plug in for the work you're doing around the space in general you had a special breakout ibrehem yours public sector summit not going on in the space area that your involvement give it quick yeah so we will have it again this year winner first ever at the day before our public sector summit we had an Earth and space day and where we really brought together all these thought leaders on how do we take advantage of that commercial cloud services that are out there to help both this programs research Observatory in any way shape app data sets it went great we worked with NASA while we were here we actually had a little control center with that time so strip from NASA JPL where we literally sat and watched the Mars landing Mars insight which we were part of and so was Lockheed Martin and so his visual globe so that was a lot of fun so you'll see us continue to really expand our efforts in the satellite and space arena around the world with these partnership well you're super cool and relevant space is cool you're doing great relevant work with Amazon I wish we had more time to talk about all the mentoring you're doing with women you're doing tech4good so many great things going on I need to get you guys and all my public sector summits in 2019 we're going to have eight of them around the world and it was so fantastic having the Cuban Baja rain this year I mean it was really busy there and I think we got to see the level of innovation that's shaping up around the world with our customers well thanks to the leadership that you have in the Amazon as a company in the industry is changing the cube will be global and we might see cube regions soon if Lockheed Martin could do it the cube could be there and they have cube sets yes thank you for coming on theresa carlson making it happen really changing the game and raising the bar in public sector globally with cloud congratulations great to have you on the cube as always more cube covers Andy Jasmine coming up later in the program statements for day three coverage after this short break [Music]

(upbeat music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's the CUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and the CUBE's ecosystem partnership. >> Hello there, and welcome back to the CUBE's exclusive live coverage of Cisco Live 2018. I'm John Furrier with cohost Stu Miniman. This is the third day of three days of live interviews. Go to thecube.net, siliconangle.com for all the great stories. Of course it'll be on YouTube after as well. Our next guest is Christine Heckart, head of global marketing for all Cisco's business units in a really great role, focusing on the outcomes. Christine, great to see you again. >> Thank you. >> You're wearing the DevNet hat that says DevNet Social Club which is very interesting, because they had a huge party last night celebrating with 500,000 developers. Quite a social party. >> Right. >> And they had the hats, looking good. >> Unbelievable, unbelievable milestone. Really changes the nature of the industry, you know. The network is becoming an open platform for business innovation. It's time. It's high-impact. We're very excited. >> It's a new Cisco you're seeing. You have a new role. You're trying to get a holistic view across all the business units which have marketing, but the interesting thing about the DevNet success is in only four years, the success on the numbers is really kind of amazing to see that kind of growth of, you know, real, active developers. This points to the digital transformation. Cloud native companies like Airbnb, these are proven case studies. Now the enterprise is moving there. What's your view of that? How do you look at the digital transformation? >> Everybody's talking digital transformation. You know, it's like, I've been in the industry 30 years. To me, the digital transformation happened in the '90's when we truly went from analog to digital. This is wave two, maybe three, and it's not so much that we are digitally transforming. It's more that we are now learning to harness networks in new ways. And I don't just mean like technology networks, but networks of customers and partners and developers and allowing them to co-create value for each other. And when that happens, you know, more usage creates more value, creates more usage. You get this virtuous cycle, this network effect that's happening. That's the big network. And of course, if you're going to do that as a business, you need a different kind of architecture, small n. You need a new business architecture to build that new business model on. And that to me is the really big transformation that's happening. It's what makes it fun to be in this industry again. Very exciting. >> Yeah, Christine, I love that. I say most of my career is like I talk about networks of networks because I'm a networking guy by back ground, but, you know, at the CUBE, we're about community. Talking about that network effect, we've had on some of the research from MIT talk about this second machine age and how you're gonna be able to leverage some of these things, so just speak a little more of some of the cultural changes we see, and, you know, how the different networking and networking play together. >> Yes, I love the network of networks, 'cause that's another way to say network effect. There's a guy in MIT, in the MIT media lab, named David Rose. He wrote this book called Enchanted Objects, and I just love that concept of, you know, living in an enchanted world. That sounds amazing. But he talks about kind of a ladder of enchantment or a ladder of connected value, and the way I internalize it is when you connect an object, you change its nature. But we're not just connecting things back to a central data center anymore. David Goeckeler kinda talked about this. Chuck in his keynote referenced it. The whole world has changed. It's now about connecting things to each other, and it's creating the context and the socializing of things, the network of networks. And then how do you let those things and let people interacting with those things co-create value for each other? And DevNet comes in there, opening up the API's, opening up the data, allowing people to create new applications that have never been thought of before. But this, to me, is the big opportunity that we all have together, and we're. This is the age of networks. Joshua Cooper Ramo wrote that book Seventh Sense, which I think should be the bible of everybody in this industry, and it says we are truly in the golden age of networks and probably just at the beginning of it. There's a lot of change to happen. >> We love network effect, so we totally love where you're going with this because our business has got a network effect dynamic in how we do our media, but I think, more importantly, you're talking about value creation with networks. This is a fundamental, new trend that's now taking the connected world to another level. So we're all connected. >> Right. >> Audiences are out there. People are out there. So people who are building the networks are the ones that are creating the value. >> Right. >> The question that we're looking at and trying to understand is where is the value capture? We see open source as a great example of co-creation. How do you view that in your mind? Is network effect capture, is it collaboration? What's your thoughts and what's your reaction to the notion of if we're connected, how do we come together and how do we capture it? >> So, the way I've been thinking about it recently. I don't know if this is the right way, but companies are at different stages of this. You've got companies that are very traditional. You've got companies like Cisco and Microsoft that are transitional, and then you've got companies that have transformed. And for any of those companies, you can create. You can harness that value of network effect. You can do it at the infrastructure level. So we talked about that a lot in the keynotes, like with security, where one person gets sick, everybody gets inoculated because of what we did with Talos, and that's a network effect, but it's captured inside your infrastructure. When you're using AINML or you're automating things, that's a network effect inside your business infrastructure. You can do it at the product and service level. Just a single product. You can do it at the internal people level. How do I get my people collaborating in new ways and creating better value, co-creation of value, network effects among the people? You can transform the company, and your business model can be based on that. Or you can transform the whole industry. You know, if you look at what all the normal examples, Airbnb and Uber, they didn't digitize. They created network effects by having a network of drivers and riders or a network of people who own houses and people who want to rent houses. It's the capital N, right, that's at the business level, and ultimately it's transforming whole industries. >> I got to get your thoughts 'cause this is right in line with Chuck Robbins's keynote around an open new, modern era. >> Right. >> He put the classic network architecture slide up. Hey, firewall, old way. Let's go look at the new way. This is really kind of a thought leadership point that's super important because as we engage with intent networking changes, the outcomes are driving a lot of the architectures. It used to be the other way around. >> Right, exactly. >> Here's what you've got and here's what you can do with it. Now it's what do you want to do? >> Right. >> How does that affecting change? Obviously DevNet is a great example. That's a freight train. It's gonna go another inflection point, we believe, but this new mindset is changing how people are organizing, and the future of work is involved. Your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, you know, it's so many layers, but ultimately it's about harnessing the wonder and taming the chaos of this hyper-connected world, and I don't think you can build a new business on an old architecture. If your business infrastructure was built 30, 20, even 10 years ago, it's just not built for the modern age. And it's about mindset shifts and architectural shifts, but going from hardware to software because you need that realtime agility. Going from closed to open. Going from CLI to API, right? The DevNet orientation. There are these big shifts that we have to make in the way we fundamentally think about architecture, and then there are shifts we have to make in the way we architect networks, in the way we build applications, and all of that is what we have to do together as an industry. >> So Christine, you know, we've been in the networking world for awhile. One of the challenges we saw for businesses many times is the network was slow to change, and, you know, enterprises would be like, oh no, I can't do that because, you know, it's a bottleneck for innovation. So we've been excited to see Cisco moving up the stack. The DevNet momentum here, explain how we can flip that bit and make sure that, you know, networking is now a driver for innovation rather than an anchor? >> Right, it should be the driver. We say the network is now open for business. The network needs to be the platform for business innovation so I could answer in a technical level, but where I'm gonna go is higher level. You think about Cisco's logo as a bridge, and what bridges do in the physical world, is bridges collapse space and time. Right? If I live in the bay area, to get from San Francisco to Pleasanton, you used to have to go all the way around the bay. And you built a bridge, and you gain time. You collapse space, and you accelerate things. And that's what technical bridges do, too. It doesn't matter if we're collaborating with people around the world, we're collapsing space. It doesn't matter if we're trying to accelerate the pace at which we bring something to market, we're accelerating time, time to market. Technology bridges collapse space and time, and you get that acceleration effect, that small world effect, as a result. Now ultimately, that's what these technologies have to do. We do it through automation. We've gotta simplify things. We've gotta make it possible to program a network in the language of business, which is what intent-based networking is about. And you take an API, and you say what you want to do, and it automatically calls up those resources from the network and makes it happen. >> Talk about Cisco's role in that vision. By the way, it's a beautiful vision. We see it the same way, but the language of business is changing. You mentioned outcomes. These are new things. You mentioned API's, intent-based. What are some of the things Cisco's playing in the role of that future innovation? What's the role for Cisco? >> Well, Cisco has to play a couple of roles. Well, two of them at the same time. One, we're transforming our own business, and while we do that, we have to help all of our customers transform their businesses. And to me, we play two really important roles. One is as technology leaders and visionaries and evangelists. That's what this whole show is about. Like, the smartest people in the world are doing this stuff. How do you bring them all together, and how do you collectively move forward, collectively make each other smarter? We've got a network effect just here, right? Because we all make each other smarter. We learn from each other, and we learn how to take things forward. So Cisco with its R&D engine, and, you know, everything we do to automate and automate business and kind of create that hidden magic that makes the modern world possible, we gotta be doing that. But at the same time, companies and cities and governments look to Cisco as somebody to help show the way at the business level, at the human level, at the impact on the world, and, you know, that's where all of our social responsibility stuff comes in. We talk about everything from connected rhinos that help to preserve the ecosystem in Africa and make sure that there's not as much poaching going on with the rhinos, all the way to how we change education or change health care, and we have to play a role in all of that. >> It's interesting you bring that up, because, you know, the statistics we look at, certainly it's been well-documented that millennials want to work for a mission-driven organization, but you're bringing up something where a mission-driven organization actually impacts network effect. >> Yes. >> So it's more than ever now having a mission. Not only do you attract people who want to work for a mission-driven company, there's actually a benefit and impact through that. Can you expand on that? Because I think you're really off to something with network effect. I think network effect is a new dynamic that isn't just a paper exercise to think about, and looking at it as a formula or gamification kind of growth hack. It's actually a real business dynamic. Talk about that. >> It is. Well first of all, network effects are timeless, and frankly, they don't even need people. Bees and flowers create a network effect. It just means more usage creates more value for all users. It's been cities, language. Network effects tend towards kind of natural monopolies. You tend to get oligopolies, smaller numbers with big impact, and, you know, it does go to mission, because what I see happening is every industry right now is being transformed. Just like we saw back in the 90's, the Internet kind of went through every industry, and it changed it drastically and ultimately changed the whole world. And we see that happening now, but where we see it is at the whole ecosystem level because you're seeing network effects happening in entire industries. And our mission is to help every company in the world find its relevance, and really every person in the world, certainly every person in our industry, find their relevance. People are searching for how to become relevant in this very hyper-connected, changing time, and Cisco can help people in this industry find their relevance. We can help each company and each industry find their way and find their relevance, and when you do that, goodness is created. And when you fail to do that, a lot of people, jobs get impacted, companies get impacted, communities get impacted. And we want to see the positive impact, not the negative. >> It's so interesting. Cisco's core competency. I'm just seeing some of the signs around here, 25 years of CCIE. It's a networking company, but you're bringing network effects at a whole nother level. It's a business architecture. >> It's a capital N, not just a small n. >> You're bridging the network effects of technical with business network effects, and that's where the secret sauce is. >> That's where the magic happens. >> Christine, great to have you on. Great to see you. >> Thank you for having me. >> See you supporting DevNet with the hat there. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. Good to see you. Great stuff here. Network effect is a business dynamic influenced by actual technical network. Cisco's at the center of it. So CUBE with our network effect is bringing the data to you in realtime. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be back with more after this short break. Stay with us. (upbeat music)

>> Live from the Computer History Museum, in Mountain View, California. It's the Cube! Covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's live coverage here in Mountain View, California, heart of Silicon Valley, at the Computer History Museum for Cisco's DevNet Create. This is their developer eco-system for cloud natives, an extension to their popular and successful DevNet developer programs. A special event, really getting down and dirty on Kubernetes cloud native, and how to create real-time applications on the cloud. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Lauren Cooney, our next guest is Raj Krishna, who's the VP of Product Management with Cisco Meraki, doing some great things here, made a big announcement on stage. Welcome to the Cube, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure to be here. >> So, before we jump into the speeds and feeds of some of the real impactful things that you've been doing, with this cool area in cloud, you just had some news on stage, you announced it. You guys are giving away a lot of Benjamins in product. Share the news. Yeah, we're going to be giving away 1.4 million dollars worth of our products, our cloud managed switches. And the reason why we're doing that is because we want to see the ecosystem, we want people to have access to our technology, because they're going to build all kinds of cool and interesting applications that we may not have thought of. So, by giving this gear away, we want to help evangelize, and help promote the ecosystem. >> You guys are creating a nice culture here, I got to say. I give you guys props, the second event you guys have done with DevNet create, where you're really looking at, and aligning with the cloud native developers. You've got things, you've got some hackathons, you've got some team-oriented camps here, but really it's about giving them the enablement, and the tooling to do things. You're not telling people "you need to develop this." You're not jamming stuff down their throat. Talk about the role of that, and what you guys are doing with your product, and how does that fit in? Because IoT comes right to mind for me. You know, new sensors, new things are happening, talk about specifically the things that you guys are offering from a tech standpoint, tools that you offer, and some of the things you expect that might happen. >> Most definitely. So, throughout the years as we've kind of built out a very large-scale cloud management platform, we've realized that the need for external orchestration tools, external monitoring tools, data aggregation tools, is paramount because people want to build not just interesting and cool applications, but they want to build security applications. They want to build data logging applications, analytics applications where they can take data from the infrastructure and then take data from their CRM, their customer resource management systems, and mix and match that data to be able to understand "hey, is there a pattern here, in terms of network traffic and foot traffic in my stores." So, as we've come to terms with this trend, we've been building out a very rich set of API's, that can help you aggregate data, that can help you visualize data, and we realized that that's not enough. So, that's why we've been investing heavily in the ecosystem play. That's why we've actually set up dedicated teams at Meraki. We have a brand new solutions architecture team that is hyperfocused and their sole mission in life is to enable developers. It's to go out and evangelize the technology, but then also have whiteboarding conversations with those developers, give them sample code, show them other sample applications. They've also stood up a brand new application app store where third party developers can have their apps featured, and they can have their apps purchased on their store. >> Take a minute to explain Meraki's role in this ecosystem, because it's a product, it's a switch, but it's not just hardware. Can you just take a minute just to lay it out, what is it, what does it do, and what does it enable? >> Yeah, so the reason why Meraki was so successful and acquired by Cisco was the cloud management aspect of it. The ability to roll out and provision and monitor, manage and scale a network, whether it's wireless, whether it's routing, whether it's switching, whether it's security, and to do that at a gargantuan scale where you have 10,000 sites or 20,000 sites, that was Meraki's bread and butter, but almost by accident what we realized was that would give you a large scale programmable platform, so we built these API's on top, and what we've learned through the years is that this is a massively programmable orchestration layer, right? For being able to program things, being able to extract data at scale-- >> Like what, like program what? >> So, let me give you an example. We have a service provider that we work with in Europe that services a million end customers. And what they do, is they're offering their services, their broadband connectivity services, their VoIP services, and they're also offering Meraki hardware in their web stores. I can go to their web store, and I can click "I want to buy a three year broadband contract, and I want to buy these widgets that come with it, one of those widgets is a Meraki widget." When they click Buy, it makes a series of API calls to the Meraki backend and everything gets provisioned automatically. Not just the Meraki services, but also the service providers own portfolio services, so it's enabled a seamless ordering experience where someone take Meraki, just as one part of the solution, and wrap a bunch of other services around it, and enable provisioning of that, at scale. >> Versus the alternative is ship a box, unpack it, connect to it-- >> Ship a box to a warehouse, unpack it, plug it in-- >> Login command line interface I mean, it's a nightmare, compared to what is is automated. >> Right >> Turnkey. >> Right, exactly. And the way that we really see ourselves fostering this ecosystem and our role in the ecosystem is we're just the platform, we are enabling the platform we want to make the platform easy to use, we want there to be rich documentation, we want there to be a set of API's, we want there to be scripts that we can make available, but really the creativity is going to come from those developers who come on board and solve unique customer problems that we may not have even thought of, so it's about working with those people, and making sure that they have the tools, the knowledge, the expertise and just enabling them. >> So, what would a traditional, kind of, Meraki developer look like? What kind of skills do they need? Do they have to have experience in networking, or app development, or what are you really looking at? >> Yeah, we're getting experience with an entire range of different types of application engineers, you know. People who are more mobile app centric, so we've seen mobile apps that are crafted, that integrate with Meraki beacons to trigger some kind of an action when I walk into a store, so very mobile app centric developers. We've seen a lot of interesting web-centric applications, you know, developers who are proficient in Java script, things like Ruby on Rails, building very rich, front-end visualizations of Meraki data, and then we've seen some even more hardcore networking engineers who really understand bits and bytes and the flows of data coming out of the network to, for example, take a NetFlow feed from our security appliance, and say "hey, this is a threat and I want to create, using this API call that tells me this is a threat, I want to have a tie-in with something like a lightbulb so that lightbulb goes off any time I see a network threat in my environment." So, what's kind of cool and interesting here is I have a range of different types of developers with different types of skillsets, and they're able to enable use cases and applications based off of their area of domain expertise. >> All right, I got to ask the hard question. This is the tough one. Increased surface area increases more potential security threats, malware, I mean there's lightbulbs out that that have, you know, connect to your WiFi, I mean they're basically a PC, you've got a processor in there, so great for malware, to attach to, sit there dormant, get inside the network, this is a huge concern. How do you guys look at the security paradigm for this? >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's why building a large scale network means having security first and foremost in your mind. So, we actually have a very rich set of security products that can help you secure your endpoints, and help you secure your network. So, just giving you an example here: We have a security appliance that actually integrates with Cisco's Talos threat engine. Cisco Talos is a team of hundreds of security researchers, and they're constantly staying up to date with the latest security vulnerabilities, security patches, trojans, malware, etc, etc. If you're running a Meraki security appliance, you have visibility into these real-time threats, and also you can extract that data and visualize it in a third party portal, or you can save it for logging. So, making sure that people are aware of the security threats, making rich tools available to our developer ecosystem that can help protect them against these threats, and then also having a privacy by design mindset when we're building and constructing API's. Let me give you an example. The upcoming laws in Europe, the GDPR laws, going into effect May 25th, we're actually building API's that will help you abide to these laws by letting you delete personally identifying information for a specific client. So, we want to help our customers and our developers be compliant with GDPR for their end users, so if their end users come to them and say "hey, I was connected to this network, but I want to be forgotten now, I want you to delete all my data," they can do that programmatically using an API. So, it's the kind of entire spectrum, right? It's building the awareness, building the product suite, as well as building the tools to help developers build privacy applications as well. >> That's definitely enabling the developer ecosystem, like we were talking about before. Now, what do you think is, when you talk about the industries that you're in, you know, I can see enterprises, retail, and manufacturing, and lots of different areas there, and there's probably service providers examples where they can make a lot of money, working with you guys and adding services to what they deliver to their customers. Where do you see kind of the most growth coming from, or the most interest? >> Yeah, we see the most growth coming from, kind of, a range of customers across the board, to be honest with you. Some of our traditional sweet spot verticals, that we were very strong in were distributed enterprise, retail and education because in these kinds of environments, you often have lean IT teams that want to do a lot more with a lot less. But what we've found is, our historic sweet spot was that kind of mid-market customer, you know, between 100 and 1000 employees, but over time we've been moving more and more up market, because we've been adding enterprise features, we've been really hardening and stabilizing the platform, so that can deliver enterprise networking at scale, and what we're finding now is increasingly more and more interest from that very high end premium segment of customer, you know, the Fortune 1000 companies who are saying "this is interesting for all my branch sites," or "hey, this is interesting for all my distribution centers or all my warehouses," so we're seeing growth across the board, which is why it's such an exciting time to be at Meraki. >> Raj, good luck with everything. Thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it. What's next for you guys as this things evolves? More programmability, more automation? >> More of everything. We're going to be launching more products, we're going to be crafting more API's, we very recently released a new series of HD video surveillance cameras, and we're seeing a ton of very interesting IoT type of applications where those are being used in manufacturing or farming, we're getting interesting API requests for that. So, we're going to be continuing to invest heavily in our portfolio, build out more hybrid products, more software features, as well as more API calls. >> You guys are targeting the developers at the edge, on the cutting edge, pun intended-- [Raj] We hope so. >> Great stuff. IoT certainly a great opportunity for developers, you know, stuff that you couldn't do years ago are possible, certainly with the cloud and IoT, and Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier. More live coverage here in Mountain View after this short break. (techno music)