>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. (smooth music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this special exclusive presentation from theCUBE. We're digging into Pensando and their Future Proof Your Enterprise event. To help kick things off, welcoming in a friend of the program, Scott Raynovich. He is the principal analyst at Futuriom coming to us from Montana. I believe first time we've had a guest on the program in the state of Montana, so Scott, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu, happy to be here. >> All right, so we're going to dig a lot into Pensando. They've got their announcement with Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Might help if we give a little bit of background, and definitely I want Scott and I to talk a little bit about where things are in the industry, especially what's happening in networking, and how some of the startups are helping to impact what's happening on the market. So for those that aren't familiar with Pensando, if you followed networking I'm sure you are familiar with the team that started them, so they are known, for those of us that watch the industry, as MPLS, which are four people, not to be confused with the protocol MPLS, but they had very successfully done multiple spin-ins for Cisco, Andiamo, Nuova and Insieme, which created Fibre Channel switches, the Cisco UCS, and the ACI product line, so multiple generations to the Nexus, and Pensando is their company. They talk about Future Proof Your Enterprise is the proof point that they have today talking about the new edge. John Chambers, the former CEO of Cisco, is the chairman of Pensando. Hewlett Packard Enterprise is not only an investor, but also a customer in OEM piece of this solution, and so very interesting piece, and Scott, I want to pull you into the discussion. The waves of technology, I think, the last 10, 15 years in networking, a lot it has been can Cisco be disrupted? So software-defined networking was let's get away from hardware and drive towards more software. Lots of things happening. So I'd love your commentary. Just some of the macro trends you're seeing, Cisco's position in the marketplace, how the startups are impacting them. >> Sure, Stu. I think it's very exciting times right now in networking, because we're just at the point where we kind of have this long battle of software-defined networking, like you said, really pushed by the startups, and there's been a lot of skepticism along the way, but you're starting to see some success, and the way I describe it is we're really on the third generation of software-defined networking. You have the first generation, which was really one company, Nicira, which VMware bought and turned into their successful NSX product, which is a virtualized networking solution, if you will, and then you had another round of startups, people like Big Switch and Cumulus Networks, all of which were acquired in the last year. Big Switch went to Arista, and Cumulus just got purchased by... Who were they purchased by, Stu? >> Purchased by Nvidia, who interestingly enough, they just picked up Mellanox, so watching Nvidia build out their stack. >> Sorry, I was having a senior moment. It happens to us analysts. (chuckling) But yeah, so Nvidia's kind of rolling up these data center and networking plays, which is interesting because Nvidia is not a traditional networking hardware vendor. It's a chip company. So what you're seeing is kind of this vision of what they call in the industry disaggregation. Having the different components sold separately, and then of course Cisco announced the plan to roll out their own chip, and so that disaggregated from the network as well. When Cisco did that, they acknowledged that this is successful, basically. They acknowledged that disaggregation is happening. It was originally driven by the large public cloud providers like Microsoft Azure and Amazon, which started the whole disaggregation trend by acquiring different components and then melding it all together with software. So it's definitely the future, and so there's a lot of startups in this area to watch. I'm watching many of them. They include ArcOS, which is a exciting new routing vendor. DriveNets, which is another virtualized routing vendor. This company Alkira, which is going to do routing fully in the cloud, multi-cloud networking. Aviatrix, which is doing multi-cloud networking. All these are basically software companies. They're not pitching hardware as part of their value add, or their integrated package, if you will. So it's a different business model, and it's going to be super interesting to watch, because I think the third generation is the one that's really going to break this all apart. >> Yeah, you brought up a lot of really interesting points there, Scott. That disaggregation, and some of the changing landscape. Of course that more than $1 billion acquisition of Nicira by VMware caused a lot of tension between VMware and Cisco. Interesting. I think back when to Cisco created the UCS platform it created a ripple effect in the networking world also. HP was a huge partner of Cisco's before UCS launched, and not long after UCS launched HP stopped selling Cisco gear. They got heavier into the networking component, and then here many years later we see who does the MPLS team partner with when they're no longer part of Cisco, and Chambers is no longer the CEO? Well, it's HPE front and center there. You're going to see John Chambers at HPE Discover, so it was a long relationship and change. And from the chip companies, Intel, of course, has built a sizeable networking business. We talked a bit about Mellanox and the acquisitions they've done. One you didn't mention but caused a huge impact in the industry, and something that Pensando's responding to is Amazon, but Annapurna Labs, and Annapurna Labs, a small Israeli company, and really driving a lot of the innovation when it comes to compute and networking at Amazon. The Graviton, Compute, and Nitro is what powers their Outposts solutions, so if you look at Amazon, they buy lots of pieces. It's that mixture of hardware and software. In early days people thought that they just bought kind of off-the-shelf white boxes and did it cheap, but really we see Amazon really hyper optimizes what they're doing. So Scott, let's talk a little bit about Pensando if we can. Amazon with the Nitro solutions built to Outposts, which is their hybrid solution, so the same stack that they put in Amazon they can now put in customers' data center. What Pensando's positioning is well, other cloud providers and enterprise, rather than having to buy something from Amazon, we're going to enable that. So what do you think about what you've seen and heard from Pensando, and what's that need in the market for these type of solutions? >> Yes, okay. So I'm glad you brought up Outposts, because I should've mentioned this next trend. We have, if you will, the disaggregated open software-based networking which is going on. It started in the public cloud, but then you have another trend taking hold, which is the so-called edge of the network, which is going to be driven by the emergence of 5G, and the technology called CBRS, and different wireless technologies that are emerging at the so-called edge of the network, and the purpose of the edge, remember, is to get closer to the customer, get larger bandwidth, and compute, and storage closer to the customer, and there's a lot of people excited about this, including the public cloud providers, Amazon's building out their Outposts, Microsoft has an Edge stack, the Azure Edge Stack that they've built. They've acquired a couple companies for $1 billion. They acquired Metaswitch, they acquired Affirmed Networks, and so all these public cloud providers are pushing their cloud out to the edge with this infrastructure, a combination of software and hardware, and that's the opportunity that Pensando is going after with this Outposts theme, and it's very interesting, Stu, because the coopetition is very tenuous. A lot of players are trying to occupy this edge. If you think about what Amazon did with public cloud, they sucked up all of this IT compute power and services applications, and everything moved from these enterprise private clouds to the public cloud, and Amazon's market cap exploded, right, because they were basically sucking up all the money for IT spending. So now if this moves to the edge, we have this arms race of people that want to be on the edge. The way to visualize it is a mini cloud. Whether this mini cloud is at the edge of Costco, so that when Stu's shopping at Costco there's AI that follows you in the store, knows everything you're going to do, and predicts you're going to buy this cereal and "We're going to give you a deal today. "Here's a coupon." This kind of big brother-ish AI tracking thing, which is happening whether you like it or not. Or autonomous vehicles that need to connect to the edge, and have self-driving, and have very low latency services very close to them, whether that's on the edge of the highway or wherever you're going in the car. You might not have time to go back to the public cloud to get the data, so it's about pushing these compute and data services closer to the customers at the edge, and having very low latency, and having lots of resources there, compute, storage, and networking. And that's the opportunity that Pensando's going after, and of course HPE is going after that, too, and HPE, as we know, is competing with its other big mega competitors, primarily Dell, the Dell/VMware combo, and the Cisco... The Cisco machine. At the same time, the service providers are interested as well. By the way, they have infrastructure. They have central offices all over the world, so they are thinking that can be an edge. Then you have the data center people, the Equinixes of the world, who also own real estate and data centers that are closer to the customers in the metro areas, so you really have this very interesting dynamic of all these big players going after this opportunity, putting in money, resources, and trying to acquire the right technology. Pensando is right in the middle of this. They're going after this opportunity using the P4 networking language, and a specialized ASIC, and a NIC that they think is going to accelerate processing and networking of the edge. >> Yeah, you've laid out a lot of really good pieces there, Scott. As you said, the first incarnation of this, it's a NIC, and boy, I think back to years ago. It's like, well, we tried to make the NIC really simple, or do we build intelligence in it? How much? The hardware versus software discussion. What I found interesting is if you look at this team, they were really good, they made a chip. It's a switch, it's an ASIC, it became compute, and if you look at the technology available now, they're building a lot of your networking just in a really small form factor. You talked about P4. It's highly programmable, so the theme of Future Proof Your Enterprise. With anything you say, "Ah, what is it?" It's a piece of hardware. Well, it's highly programmable, so today they position it for security, telemetry, observability, but if there's other services that I need to get to edge, so you laid out really well a couple of those edge use cases and if something comes up and I need that in the future, well, just like we've been talking about for years with software-defined networking, and network function virtualization, I don't want a dedicated appliance. It's going to be in software, and a form factor like Pensando does, I can put that in lots of places. They're positioning they have a cloud business, which they sell direct, and expect to have a couple of the cloud providers using this solution here in 2020, and then the enterprise business, and obviously a huge opportunity with HPE's position in the marketplace to take that to a broad customer base. So interesting opportunity, so many different pieces. Flexibility of software, as you relayed, Scott. It's a complicated coopetition out there, so I guess what would you want to see from the market, and what is success from Pensando and HPE, if they make this generally available this month, it's available on ProLiant, it's available on GreenLake. What would you want to be hearing from customers or from the market for you to say further down the road that this has been highly successful? >> Well, I want to see that it works, and I want to see that people are buying it. So it's not that complicated. I mean I'm being a little superficial there. It's hard sometimes to look in these technologies. They're very sophisticated, and sometimes it comes down to whether they perform, they deliver on the expectation, but I think there are also questions about the edge, the pace of investment. We're obviously in a recession, and we're in a very strange environment with the pandemic, which has accelerated spending in some areas, but also throttled back spending in other areas, and 5G is one of the areas that it appears to have been throttled back a little bit, this big explosion of technology at the edge. Nobody's quite sure how it's going to play out, when it's going to play out. Also who's going to buy this stuff? Personally, I think it's going to be big enterprises. It's going to start with the big box retailers, the Walmarts, the Costcos of the world. By the way, Walmart's in a big competition with Amazon, and I think one of the news items you've seen in the pandemic is all these online digital ecommerce sales have skyrocketed, obviously, because people are staying at home more. They need that intelligence at the edge. They need that infrastructure. And one of the things that I've heard is the thing that's held it back so far is the price. They don't know how much it's going to cost. We actually ran a survey recently targeting enterprises buying 5G, and that was one of the number one concerns. How much does this infrastructure cost? So I don't actually know how much Pensando costs, but they're going to have to deliver the right ROI. If it's a very expensive proprietary NIC, who pays for that, and does it deliver the ROI that they need? So we're going to have to see that in the marketplace, and by the way, Cisco's going to have the same challenge, and Dell's going to have the same challenge. They're all racing to supply this edge stack, if you will, packaged with hardware, but it's going to come down to how is it priced, what's the ROI, and are these customers going to justify the investment is the trick. >> Absolutely, Scott. Really good points there, too. Of course the HPE announcement, big move for Pensando. Doesn't mean that they can't work with the other server vendors. They absolutely are talking to all of them, and we will see if there are alternatives to Pensando that come up, or if they end up singing with them. All right, so what we have here is I've actually got quite a few interviews with the Pensando team, starting with I talked about MPLS. We have Prem, Jane, and Sony Giandoni, who are the P and the S in MPLS as part of it. Both co-founders, Prem is the CEO. We have Silvano Guy who, anybody that followed this group, you know writes the book on it. If you watched all the way this far and want to learn even more about it, I actually have a few copies of Silvano's book, so if you reach out to me, easiest way is on Twitter. Just hit me up at @Stu. I've got a few copies of the book about Pensando, which you can go through all those details about how it works, the programmability, what changes and everything like that. We've also, of course, got Hewlett Packard Enterprise, and while we don't have any customers for this segment, Scott mentioned many of the retail ones. Goldman Sachs is kind of the marquee early customer, so did talk with them. I have Randy Pond, who's the CFO, talking about they've actually seen an increase beyond what they expected at this point of being out of stealth, only a little over six months, even more, which is important considering that it's tough times for many startups coming out in the middle of a pandemic. So watch those interviews. Please hit us up with any other questions. Scott Raynovich, thank you so much for joining us to help talk about the industry, and this Pensando partnership extending with HPE. >> Thanks, Stu. Always a pleasure to join theCUBE team. >> All right, check out thecube.net for all the upcoming, as well as if you just search "Pensando" on there, you can see everything we had on there. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. 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>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara, California it's theCube. Covering Open Networking Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation. (bright music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Open Networking Summit 2017 put on by The Linux Foundation. We're excited to have a special guest host for the next two days, Scott Raynovich. He's a founder and principal analyst at Futuriom, which hasn't really launched. It's launching in a couple of-- How many days? >> Ten days. >> Ten days. So you heard it first here on theCUBE. We love to launch companies on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> So, Scott, looking forward to working together. >> I'm happy to be on theCUBE once again. >> So, last time when you co-hosted on the cube, it was here at ONS in Santa Clara, but I think it was 2014. >> Scott: It was at least two years ago, maybe three years ago, I think you're right. >> Amazing. So what are you looking forward to? You've been covering this space for a long time. A lot of talk about 5G and IoT and software-defined finally being here. From your seat, what are you looking at? What are you excited about? >> Well, I'm here to check out the buzz, to see if this stuff is actually happening. I think we heard this morning that it has happened. We heard from Martin Casado, the founder of Nicira, one of the SDN pioneers. And he went through the whole evolution of the product, how it's now hit one billion dollars of revenue. >> Jeff: That's pretty real. >> It's not bad. >> A billion, a billion run rate. >> And we heard from AT&T, which is deploying a open software-based network through the entire AT&T network going from 30% software-defined last year to 55% is the target this year. That's real, that's happening. We heard from Google. Again, one of the pioneers of software-defined networking, how they built their entire network on software-defined technologies, open-source. They continue to layer in new elements of software-defined networking and building it out into the WAN, building out these kind of edge data centers. So, it's happening across the board. There's no doubt. >> And then we've got this pesky thing called IoT that's coming down the pipe at a rapid-- I think at Mobile World Congress, as is always the case, a lot of chat about the new handsets, and 5G handsets, but really from our perspective, we think it's much more exciting to talk about the IoT impact, as all these connected devices are running around, how they share data, edge computing, cloud computing. It's pretty interesting times. >> Absolutely, and what's really interesting, I think, I'm focused right now on looking at industrial IoT. How does a car, auto manufacturing factory use sensors and devices to plug data into the cloud and then meld that with artificial intelligence, that we want to throw in another buzzword, right? >> Jeff: Right, right. machine learning, deep learning, there's no shortage. What happens with artificial intelligence working with The Internet of Things and sensors to automate anything from controlling the temperature in a factory to telling your car where to drive. So, lot's of stuff going on. >> So, any particular announcements over the last couple days you think we should highlight? >> Well, this morning's big announcement. AT&T, you know they announced a white box live production, white box system, I don't know if everybody knows what that means, but basically, instead of taking proprietary networking hardware, they use the chips and they used an ODM, Outsource manufacturer to create their own boxes and load their software. You know this new open source stuff called ONAP. And that's an interesting development, Jeff, because it means the operator, the network operator, is now become their own integrator. You know they used to go to Ericsson and Cisco and Juniper to help them integrate these technologies. It looks like their becoming more of the integrator of themselves and their buying the pieces of what they need and gluing it all together, much the way Google built their network. So, that's an interesting trend and the fact that they announced today that this white box system is live in production is significant. >> So, we'll have Dave Ward on later today from Cisco, many time Cube alumni. He's a great guest. But as you look at it kind of from the incumbent's point of view, obviously they have a huge install base, big sales forces, a lot of resources to bear. How are they playing this kind of open source piece of it? How are they leveraging the proprietary stuff they have, distribution and sales, but still kind of being part of the party and not being excluded from all the excitement that's going on? >> Totally, totally. Well, first of all, they absolutely have to focus on software. Because the hardware is becoming commoditized and you can go buy these merchant silicon chips that are fantastic and go gigabits and you plug them in. So, emphasis on software. And then they have to make this transition to integrate more open source technologies. But, you know, the operators are still going to need partners, right? They're still going to need people to help them. And, you know, I liken it to when you go to buy a car. You drive it off the lot but you still got all this service and support, right? You got the maintenance program. You got to bring the car back in. You buy a warranty. There's a lot of services that go along with the installation of the hardware and the software. >> Alright Scott, well it should be a great couple days. Thanks for coming down from the plains of Montana to join us-- >> Well, they're mountains actually. >> here in Santa Clara. Oh, you're in the mountainy part. Oh, that's right. A lot of talk after the basketball game last night of how eastern Washington is so different than the west so I had kind of Spokane in my head, I guess. >> We were kind of going for the Zags and that didn't happen. >> A little bit too many whistles, I think, on both sides last night. Kind of slowed the whole game down but that's a whole different conversation. He's Scott Raynovich. We're here at ONS 2017 for two days of coverage. You're watching theCUBE. I'm Jeff Frick. We'll be back with our next guest after this short break. Thanks for watching. >> Scott: Great (bright music) >> Narrator: Robert Herjavec >> Interviewer: People obviously know you from--

(intel sound logo) >> [Announcer] Live from Silicon Valley, it's the CUBE. Covering Mobile World Congress 2017, brought to you by INTEL. >> Okay welcome back everyone to our special two days of coverage of Mobile World Congress 2017. I'm John Furrier, here in the Palo Alo Studios covering what's happening in Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain. Of course this is our day two of wall to wall coverage. Eight a.m. to six p.m. for two days and of course, as we kick off our day two and get early morning here in California or mid morning, they're ending the day in Barcelona and all the news is dropping. Again, it's continuing the theme of 5G, IoT and the notion of the super demos, all the flare and glam around IoT, AI and everything else. On the phone right now in Barcelona, Spain, is our friend and analyst with the Futuriom Group, Scott Raynovich, who will also be co-hosting with the CUBE at ONS, Open Networking Summit. Longtime industry analyst, guru in the space around mobile, certainly SDN and what's going on. Scott, welcome and thanks for taking the time to call in from Barcelona. >> [Scott] Thanks, John. Great to be here, and also I might add some color to one thing you said, when you said the day was winding down. (John laughs) Apparently in Barcelona the day never ends. It just goes all the way through. >> Well the show is ending but now the real action happens, all the hallway conversations at dinner and certainly we know that you take a nap around this time and go out and get ready to burn the midnight oil 'til three in the morning. We have many stories of Barcelona, but let's get down to it. What's happened today in Barcelona? What's the big story? What are you seeing on the ground there? What's the vibe? Give us some insight into what's happening, the experiences you're having and what's the big stories today coming out of Mobile World Congress. >> [Scott] Yeah sure, John. Well there's, as you know, there's a lot of hype about a lot of buzz words, so you got to throw all the buzz words out there: IoT, 5g, self driving cars, VR, AR, augmented reality. If you run through the halls you see a lot of those gizmos and gadgets and I would say the scene has shifted a lot in recent years. As you know a couple years ago it was all about Samsung's big tablet or the latest phone and now it's more about these kind of more advanced technologies, they call them interactive technologies that we're going to see coming down the road the next few years, so there's lots of stuff. >> The show has been very telco orientated and still really is a device and telco show basically. The device guys had their moment in the sun on Saturday and Sunday, but Monday kicked off really the telco show. This is really about ... The telco is trying to figure out their future. Their core competency over the years has been how to provision subscribers and billing, and been trying to figure out the over the top, and now as you look at the software that's coming out with the 5g plus the end to end, some of the things happening at the network transformation area. There's some real action happening. I want to just get your thoughts on is this the time where we're starting to see the needle move on the progress of really bringing the kind of networks that are going to power the cool technologies and promises of use cases, whether it's e-sports up to driving cars that are essentially data centers. Huge amount of data problems, huge amount of network reconfiguration, is this the time where there is an inflection point? What's your thoughts? >> [Scott] Yeah, that's a great point. You have the service providers for a number of years have felt a little bit - I don't know what the word is - spurned by success. They created all this plumbing and they put this massive investment into LTE, broadband, that really enabled all these applications, but it was more people like Apple and Netflix and Amazon that kind of stole the show by leveraging that bandwidth for these new services. Cloud services, music services, of course Netflix, the most popular internet service in the world, and so the service providers kind of feel like 5G is another opportunity that they don't want to squander and so they're being very careful about how to position that. But to your point, they have realized that they absolutely need to virtualize their network because what's going to addle a 5G is you have this massive amount of bandwidth but you need to splice it up into different - they called them actually network slices - so that you can provide all these advanced services, and that's where the service providers want to figure out how they're going to monetize that. So it's certainly a launchpad for the technology and the somewhat maligned technology known as NFV, Network Function Virtualization, but I think that the pressure to get 5G out is going to accelerate their investment in NFV because they need that cloud platform to kind of serve up all these next generation services. >> Is the telco's NFV efforts going to make them more cloud ready in your mind? Is that the sentiment? Is it that, do they have to kind of do a lot of things right now? And the question is, what are the use cases if they are cloud ready and if they can get their act together, the network layer to power these aps that are going to be running on 5G, so you know? >> [Scott] Yeah, yeah. I think so, I mean they're progressing. AT&T makes periodic announcements that they've virtualized whatever it is, 30 or 40 percent of the network, and Verizon has a pretty interesting company Radisys, which recently got a 70 million dollar contract from Verizon to install NFV infrastructure. Now that's not ... 70 million dollars is a drop in the bucket in terms of capital spending for a small virtualization platform like Radisys, but that's a pretty big move and so I think you're seeing this stuff finally becoming real, and they are going to have, within a few ... We'll wait for them because they're a much more flexible platform. It's based on the cloud web scale model, where you snap in a bunch of servers and all the networking is virtualized and you can move things around in the cloud and they want to take advantage of new services they can offer, whether that's a virtualized enterprise security service, you know security service in the cloud where you go into the Verizon Data Center and you order it up and you have a cloud security model that it will protect you, or other what we call Virtual Network Functions, another hot area you've probably heard of SD-WAN. There are a lot of SD-WAN services being rolled out >> Cool >> and that's a virtualized WAN solution that doesn't require you to, say you have a bunch of branch offices around the world, you don't have to ship them all routers and then hook them up with expensive leased lines. You can kind of close them in with the cloud if you will, and there are a bunch of hot companies in that area, including Aryaka Networks, Velo Cloud, Viptela, which are all mentioned as active acquisition targets these days, so there's definitely still a lot of virtualization thought going on but I will say it took a backseat to, this year it took a backseat to 5g and IoT. >> Yeah great commentary. I got to say, I talked with Intel with an exclusive interview with Sandra Rivera from Intel GM, with Communications Network Platforms Group, and we were talking about the dynamics and I think the big IoT thing has been autonomous vehicles. Obviously smart cities is, you've got some surveillance, you've got cameras and stuff in towns and cities, and certainly the smart home. You can't move an inch in the industry without hearing about echo and google in the home, kind of voice activated automation. Then you've got media entertainment, you mentioned Netflix. You know all these things are essentially coming back to rear its data center environment. This is like the data center meets consumer, and we were commenting that the autonomous vehicle is essentially a data center on wheels and that there's going to be trade offs between low latency high bandwidth and true mobility. You know car is not going to be dictated by millimeter wave technology because they might have different frequencies, so this brings up this diversity of network. And so I'll get your thoughts on how you see the market evolving with the pressure for open source software, you mentioned SD WAN it's software defined, WAN software defined radio, software defined networks, software defined data center, the whole world is software defined so the role of open standards both on open source software as well as open wireless if you will, meaning not one vendor is going to own it, how do you grok that? How do you pull that picture together and how do you advise your clients on what this actually means for them and their impact? >> [Scott] Yeah that's a great question. Well, you kind of hit the nail on the head with the question, because I spent much of the show looking at all of the ... If you want to break it up into two buckets of things here, you talked about cloud and WAN, so the infrastructure that builds the data center but as you pointed out, this is a service provider show, so a lot of the discussion is around connectivity standards of course, and it's really amazing John. It's amazing. You know we can boil these things down into these neat little buzz words >> IoT and 5G - but just today, I talked to people about at least five different forms of IoT standards and of course 5G today was a super controversial topic. So let me just break those off one by one. With IoT connectivity, you have something called LoRaWAN, which is a open standard, an IoT open standard, and there's about 500 members signed onto the LoRaWAN alliance, including Cisco and IBM and China Electric, so that has a fair amount of momentum. It has certain characteristics. Very low bandwidth, and not in real time so it's, I'll just give you one example. If you want a connected cow, John, I saw a connected cow, and the idea is that is be large. When a massive operation wanted, you want to track your livestock, so you need a very low cost device that does that. That's an example. You also have so called MBIOT, which Cisco's pushing pretty hard narrow band IoT, with another standard that's going to be used for IoT applications. You have the 3GPP working on LPWAN, which is kind of like a 2G recycled for IoT. The characteristics of IoT have to be really cheap there has to be really low power, so you can't use LTE right? So that's another one. Then you have a couple of hot private companies. SigFox, which has over 100 million dollars funding, and it might even be hundreds of millions of dollars at this point, based in France. Another company called Ingenu, which is spun out of east San Diego qualcon hotbed with a lot of really interesting IT and they have a technology called RPMA, so those two companies are building networks worldwide based on proprietary standards. They've said, "We're going to build an IoT network, "a radio network for IoT all over the world, "and it's going to be based on our proprietary technology, "'cuz it works better," so that ... I just gave you IoT, right? Okay, and then you have 5G, which dozens of service providers (incoming call beep) all have different things about that and actually argued about 5G doesn't exist right? Right so you have Verizon rolling out a pretty standard 5G trial and then you have something called 5GNR, New Radio, which is a multi spectrum flavor of 5G that Qualcomm and are fooling around with, and then you have people like Nokia saying, "Woah, woah, woah slow down. We can't push 5G "before its time. We don't want it to fragment, you know? (vibrating phone) "We don't want it to just "splinter all over the place," >> Yeah. >> [Scott] You know, pull like an Android. So I don't know, that was a mouthful but if you- >> So what does it mean? Is it ... >> You get the idea of how these buzzwords, when you unpack them, they get really complicated. >> Is it forking? Is 5G essentially a land grab right now, or is this all part of the evolution in your mind, because it does seem that you need a catalyst. Obviously Intel's taking a leadership position. They've done a deal with Nokia. You've seen some Ericcson announcement but then you've got Qualcomm on the other side with Snapdragon and you know the competition between Intel and Qualcomm is at an all time high, certainly on the handset side. But at the end of the day, the network is the key at this point, and so the question is, is 5G going to be broken down by the forking? >> 5G is a hype grab, it's totally a grab. >> It's a hype grab. (laughs) >> [Scott] Because 5G will not exist for at least ... They won't be rolling it out 'til 2020 and I heard several people argue today that it's really 2021, so it's not a land grab until it actually exists, right? So it's all about positioning your marketing around it, but just to give you an example of one of the controversies today was accelerating. Should we accelerate to 5G? You know and then BT came out and said, "Well we have to be careful because it's really expensive." 5G is actually going to be more expensive than LTE. If you don't have the return on investment, you know you're going to kill yourself, so people are confused. >> Scott, Intel claims they're going to have 5G in Winter Olympics in Korea. That is what they told me on the record. Not sure if that is a trial network or is that going to be just some data stations? >> [Scott] Yeah they'll have some form of 5G. I mean what I'm trying to point out with all these things is when somebody says the buzz word, it doesn't mean one thing, right? >> Yeah. >> [Scott] It means like yeah, it means several things. And it'll certainly be pretty standard 5G trials. I'm just saying right now we don't even know what that is. Nobody has even settled on what the spectrum is for 5G. There's like been four different announcements about different spectrums and then you have this 5GNR thing which is a multi spectrum technology, so it's really hard to say. I'd be shocked if anybody at Intel definitively knows what 5G looks like at this point. >> Well certainly it begs a question for a follow up conversation around what is 5G. Certainly people will argue what that means in terms of bandwidth, but the question we had on The CUBE yesterday was, "What aps are even ready for a gigabyte "and what does that mean?" Is that fixed wire, is that true mobility, is that latency versus bandwidth, and et cetera et cetera. You know the debate will rage on. Honestly I just want to see more bandwidth. I love connectivity so. Alright Scott, thanks so much for taking the time. I got to ask you a final question. You know, what's the best party so far in Barcelona? What's the best tapas you've had? What's the scene like in and around town? What's some of the buzz? >> [Scott] (laughing) Well I haven't been to any big parties to tell you the truth, I've mostly been to private dinners. The food is amazing and so is the wine. >> Yeah. >> [Scott] It's pretty hard to go wrong in Barcelona. It's probably like a foodie's paradise I would say. >> Yeah it certainly is. When we were there last time it was amazing. Great gothic vibe there, great little restaurants. Scott Raynovich here inside the CUBE and Scott you got some new credentials here. You're still at rayno on twitter but you now have a new firm called Futuriom - F-u-t-u-r-i-o-m Research. Congratulations. >> [Scott] Futuriom, yep. >> Futuriom. So appreciate it and thanks for taking the time, want to give you a shout out for the new gig and you'll be hosting for the CUBE at the Open Networking Summit, ONS, coming up. Appreciate that and thanks for calling in and sharing the insight, what's happening in Spain and Barcelona for Mobile World Congress. Thanks so much. >> [Scott] Thanks, John. It was geat. Thanks for having, that was great stuff. >> Great. We'll be back with more after this short break. This is special two days coverage inside the Studios of Palo Alto live, here in California, breaking down what's happening in Barcelona with all the news, the analysis.