>>Yeah. Hey, everyone, Welcome to the cubes. Continuous coverage of AWS Re invent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier were running one of the industry's largest and most important hybrid tech events with AWS and massive ecosystem of partners. Right now there are two live cube sets to remote sets over 100 guests on the programme and we're pleased to welcome back one of our alum I to talk about the next generation and cloud innovation. Georgia Lisa is joins John to me, the director of product management for EC two edge at A. W S George. Welcome to the programme. >>Glad to be here in person. Thanks Great to be here in person. Awesome to be here in person. Finally, >>one of the things that is very clear is the US flywheel of innovation and there was no slowdown with what's happened in the last 22 months. Amazing announcements, new leadership. We talked a little bit about five g yesterday, but let's talk more about that. Everyone is excited about five g consumers businesses. What's going on? >>So, yeah, I wanted to talk to you today about the new service that we launched called AWS Private. Five g. Essentially, it's a service that allows any AWS customer to build their own private five g network and what we try to do with the services make it that simple and cost effective for anyone without any telco experience or expertise, really, to build their own private five g network. So you just have to go to your AWS console. Um, describe the parameters for network simple stuff like, Where do you want it to be located? The throughput, the number of devices and AWS will build a plan for your network and seep you everything that you need. Just plug it together. Uh, turn it on and the network automatically configures itself. All you got to do is popular sim cards that we send you into your mobile devices and you have a private five g network working in your your premise is >>one of the things that we know and love about AWS is its customer obsession. It's focused on the customer's that whole flywheel of all the innovation that comes out as Adam was saying yesterday to the customers, we deliver this, but but you wanted more. We said we deliver this, but you wanted more. Talk to me a little bit about some of the customer catalysts for private five G. >>Actually, one of the good examples is where we are right now. More and more AWS customers need to connect an increased number of devices, and these devices become more data hungry. You know they need to push data around. They also become more and more wireless, right? Uh, so when you are trying to connect devices in the manufacturing floor, bit sensors, you know, connect the tracks, forklifts or in a convention centre. You look at how many devices there are around us. When you're trying to connect these devices with a wired network, you quickly run into physical problems like it's. It's hard to lay cable anywhere, and customers try to use for many of these use cases. But as a number of devices grows into the thousands and you know you need to put more and more data around, you quickly reach the limitations of what the WiFi technology and also WiFi is not really great at covering really open, large space. So that's where these customers, you know, think of college campuses, convention centres, manufacturing floors, all of these customers. Really? What they need to be able to do is to level the power of the mobile networks. However, doing that by yourself is pretty hard. So that's what we aim to to enable here we are waiting to enable these customers to build very easily and cost effectively their own. Uh, >>Okay, George. So I have to ask. I'm truly curious. I love this announcement. Um, because it brings together kind of the edge story. But also, I'm a band with love. I love more broad. Give me more broadband. Faster, cheaper and more broadband. How does it work? So take me through the use case of what do I need to deploy? Do I need to have a back haul connection? What does that look like? Is there a certain band with requirements? How big is the footprint? What's the radius? Just walk me through. How do I roll this out? >>Yeah, sure. Some of that stuff actually depends on your requirements, right. How How big? How much of a space do you want to cover? Basically, what we see, if you were in preview right now, so we're sipping you. The simplest configuration, which is basically these things called small cells there, you know, radio units and antennas. And all you have to do is connect them to your local. The network has Internet access. These things connect and automatically had, you know, connect home to the cloud and basically integrate and build up your whole network. All all you need is that Internet connection, and I don't know what to do. Now, how big is the network? You can You can make it pretty big. You can cover hundreds of thousands of square feet with with cellular networks with mobile networks. Um, you know, the bigger you they especially want to cover the more of these radio units. We're gonna stop you, uh, >>classic wireless radios. >>Yes. You >>light up the area with five g connected to the network. That's your choke point. The big of the pipe >>took the bigger pipe. That toxic. I mean, well, there, there's two. There's two things to consider here. There is local connectivity. So devices talking to each other, and there was connectivity back to somewhere else, like the Internet or the cloud. There are use cases, for example. Let's say data video feeds that you want to push up to do some inference in the cloud. In these use cases, you're basically pushing all of the data up. There is no left. There's no East West connectivity locally, and that's where our simplest configuration works best. There are other, uh, use cases where there is a lot of connectivity and devices talk to each other locally, like in this place, for example, right in this. In these cases, we can sip you that second configuration where we actually see Pew, a managed hardware WS managed hardware on premises, and that runs the smart of the network and allows all of your data traffic to remain local. That's >>wavelength Outpost, or both. >>A different configuration of A. W s private five G. It's a managed service. We take. We take care of it. You basically it's very It has a pricing model, which is very customer friendly because you like multi W services. You can start with no upfront fees. You can scale and pay as you scale because >>it's designed to deploy easily. >>Yep, deploys the >>footprint. Just I'm just curious if the poll is it like, it's like an antenna. Is it like so and >>yeah, well, the antenna is, you know, the small cell. They call them small cells in, you know, in in cellular land there, this big. And you can you can hide this. There is actually a demo in the Venetian of the private service. So you can you can actually see it in action, but yeah, that thing can cover 10,000 square feet, just one of them. So you can >>go out and put a five g network downtown and be like the king. >>You could Yes. You could have your own private network. You can monetise that next >>on the Q. >>Great stuff. >>So in terms of industries adopting this, you gave us some examples. Obviously. Convention centres, campuses, universities. I'm just curious, given the amount of acceleration that we've seen in every industry the last 22 months where organisations must become digital. They depend on that for their livelihood. And we saw this all these pivots, right? 22 months ago. How do we survive this? How do we thrive? Are consumers now are whether it's an injury or consumer or enterprise. Have this expectation that we're gonna be able to communicate no matter where we are 24 by seven. Whether it's health care, financial services. I'm just curious if you're seeing any industries in particular that you think are really prime for this private five >>G. Yeah. So manufacturing is a is a really great example because you have to cover large spaces. You have thousands of devices, sensors, etcetera and using other solutions like WiFi does not provide you the depth of capabilities like, for example, you know, advanced security capabilities or even capabilities to prioritise traffic from some devices over others, which is what a five G network can do for you. But also, you know, it involves large spaces both indoors and outdoors. We, you know, actually, Amazon is a really great example of you know of using this. We're working with Amazon fulfilment centres. These are the warehouses that fulfil your orders when you order online. Um, and they are a mix of indoor space and outer space, and you can think of, you know, I don't know if you've seen pictures or videos. There's robots running around their sensors everywhere. There is packing lines, etcetera, all of these things in order to operate performantly, but also securely and safely for the people that are around. You need to be well connected at a very high reliability rate. Right? So, uh, Amazon for two networks is actually using private A W s private five G to connect all of these devices. The really key thing here is you don't have to go drop 1000 of these access points we're talking about you. Can you can. You can probably cover your space with 5 10 of these. So your operational expenses, your maintenance goes down and there is less interruption of your normal operations like you can't. You don't have to stop your manufacturing line for someone to come in and fix your WiFi access. >>It's great for campuses like college campuses, college >>campuses, a great one. We you know, we've worked with college campuses, including the CME University in the past two, you know, with some of our partners to, uh, to to deploy. So >>that's how close you have these distribution, gas systems, distribution, whatever they call it accelerate whatever amplifies into get extra coverage, this seems to be a good fit. Um, for that how you mentioned in the preview? How do people get involved? Is there like a criteria. How was it going to >>be available to get priority? Don't get you >>tell them ready to jump in. Take us through the programme. What's the plants? >>So currently we're you know, we're in that preview mode. So we're keeping you this small configuration, the simpler configuration. You can sign up on the AWS website and you know, we, as we scale our operations are supply chain. Because this involves also, you know, hardware, etcetera. We're gonna go to general availability g A over the next few months and we have both configurations open. So I I encourage everyone who is interested go to the W s website and sign up. We're asking to get that in customers' hands because we're getting overwhelmingly positive feedback on what we built. >>This is transformative. I mean, clearly what you're talking about here is going to transform industry and help organisations transform themselves and outpaced the competitors that are in the rear view mirror Aren't going to be able to take advantage of this were on the show floor. We've got lots of people here. Where can people actually go and see this preview tested up? >>There is an actual demo in the Venetian. I can't remember. Sorry, I can't remember the room. I think it's on the Yes, actually, it's on the floor on the third floor where the meeting rooms are on outside 35 or one. If anyone wants to go, we're >>going to start buying lunch time. >>Yes. Yeah, you can see it in action. And, you know, you could You could see a future where everything, You know, you look around. There's thousands of devices here. You could power all of these devices with a single cell and, you know, really scaled throughput >>in the five G. Just curious, um on the range is better than wifi >>ranges. Better outdoors, >>obviously, or factories. What's the throughput on the >>depending on the spectrum that you choose? And that's actually a really good save way. The device, the service that we built, its spectrum agnostic so it can be used on right now. We're using it on what we call C BRS spectrum, which is the free for all you can. You know, you can you can use it yourself. But also, customers can bring their own spectrum. And we're working with a batch of, uh, CSP operators to build advanced bundles where you can work this on licence spectrum. So if you're going up the spectrum in what they called millimetre wave >>spectrum owner to bring your own licence, >>you could So telco right? You could be a telco, bring your, you know, and work with us as a partner or some actually, actually, manufacturing customers have purchased rights to small spectrum bands so they can use those in combination with this service to deploy. So to your original question, as you're going back up the spectrum, you can drive more and more throughput. You it's not. It's not unheard of to drive one gig. You know what's so >>The low hanging fruit is the the use cases that have critical need for edge connectivity manufacturing? Um, certainly the retail or whatever that they help do the deployment >>we can. We can. We can see this being applicable because because you can start super small. You can see this being applicable even to branch offices, right? Like, uh, let's say I was talking to a customer yesterday. They were thinking or have all these branch offices. I don't even I don't even want to have I thought either he just wants something that's very quickly and easily. You know, I can manage centrally and it just connects. >>Can I should have fixed wireless shot to the wavelength order to have back all with wire >>too. Oh, they actually we are planning to. You know, I talked about where the smarts of the network live in the they can live in a region, they can live in the locals, and they can live in a wave election. So we're combining more and more of these products as well. And it's computing, obviously, is a is an obvious thing that, you know, we should be working on >>incredible work, George, that you and the team have done transforming industries. And I don't know if a feeling there might be a cube to Is it? Would it be too dot >>Oh, John, >>he's ready. Big George, Thank you so much for joining joining me today. It's great >>to be here. Thanks for having that >>for John Ferrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube, the global leader in live coverage. Mhm

from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hey welcome back everybody Jeffrey here with the cube we're in our Palo Alto Studios here today for a cute conversation it's a little bit of a dog days of summer conference seasons a little bit slow so we're excited we can kind of take a step back and we're gonna look back actually in time we're excited to have a very special guest rich Kolbert he is the field CTO at Dell EMC but really what we're talking about today is this data domain is 10-year anniversary of the date domain acquisition so rich first off welcome to the to the cube thanks Jeff excited to be here thanks for the invitation appreciate it I can't believe we're talking before we turned the cameras on that you join in 2006 and yet it's been 10 years I'm like wait 2006 was more than 10 can that be we're just getting old I don't know things are changing too fast no it's like a trip down memory lane and it just seems so long ago and yes in a way it also seems like yesterday I think things have gone so quickly so we're also joined in this segment by our top data analyst also the founder of wiki bond and co-ceo of Silicon angle media and founder of that as well so Dave Villante is joining us all the way from Boston Dave good to see ya hey Jeff hi rich to talk to you guys hey Dave so let's take a quick trip back 10 years ago actually maybe 11 years ago things were starting to heat up there was a lot of different vendors out there a lot of different players and things started to consolidate so I wonder if you can give us a little bit of your perspective what what's going on rich and then we'll get Dave's perspective yeah it was an interesting time right before the data domain acquisition we actually went through some economic times in 2008 and the markets are changing and and and some companies are becoming more successful some companies were struggling through that time customers were also looking for ways to to you know save money and do some interesting things there so it was a mixed feeling set of you know through that times data domain had IPO in 2007 and we were kind of going through this this explosive period of growth but you know across the board we just saw so many things change all at once and we really were surprised I think when initially was NetApp that an that they had intentions to bias and I think that was due to some of the economic factors of play and then of course EMC stepped in and and started a bidding contest with NetApp for for the company right so I Dave wonder if you could share your perspective you're sitting as an analyst you got Jo TG The Godfather of storage back in Boston what were you seeing in terms of the kind of the market dynamics and was it a surprise wouldn't that app decided to make a move well if you know first first of all I had left the storage industry for quite some time and when I started wiki bond we looked at storage and nothing had changed except one thing which was David deduplication that was new until a new tape was finally I always hated the tape the tape was finally being attacked so it was it was amazing time and EMC at the time we had some obviously great management yet Frank Sluman running data domain yo Joe Tucci who always balanced out acquisitions with organic you know in how to R&D and when Tom Georgians and NetApp said they were gonna go by David domain emt's walk right in and said no way so it was somewhat of a defensive move but at the same time when you talk to the M&A guys they said no no it's not just defense we can actually make this a growth play and that's exactly what happened Dayna domain I think at the time rich was probably a couple of hundred million dollar company and then they they popped that at the EMC and scaled that to you know well over a billion dollars and it'll maintain the the franchise and then grew it quite dramatically beyond where all the expectations were for the market the market team at the time was probably around a billion and I think ID seen rich as a over three billion today yeah one of the things that's so don't quote me on all the numbers because I'm not like you know watching the market caps and stocks but I think we'd gotten up to about a 500 million dollar run rate in terms of sales and prior to the crash I think our market cap was actually significantly higher so so our price came down you know which is one of the things I think that attracted NetApp to the game so the interesting dynamic inside the company was that the NetApp offer was was kind of the first one so they were working with the data domain leadership and they were speaking with us EMC was more of a kind of unsolicited offer so there was less communication and I remember there was a morning I was at San Francisco Airport going out to meet a customer and Joe to Chi put out a full-page ad in a local newspaper and we were reading that and that was his way of communicating to the to the people a data domain saying he wants to welcome us into the family it was quite a moment well it sure was and of course you guys were fierce competitors data domain was fierce competitors with with EMC you know fighting for for the install base and then all of a sudden you know the cultures it's somehow work EMC was was very good at acquisitions and he made it work and they not active it was an outside observer but you were there you know Frank Sluman came in did it's kind of running the the data protection organization but a lot has changed since then hasn't it I mean back then you stored you know a little bit of data I think accounting of terabytes today we live in a petabyte scale world I could talk about what's changed well you know the scales and performance certainly has changed I think the data domain platform today is about a thousand times larger than it was when it first came to market and in fact when we were being bid on by NetApp and EMC we had a flagship product is the DD 690 you know behind the scenes we had a system that was coming out that was double that size and EMC nor Netta knew about that so once the deal closed they got to find out that our size had just doubled in our performance and doubled at the same time but you're right you kind of talked about the dynamics inside of EMC EMC had a very large data protection you know division they had avemar networker santaros v TLS they also had an OEM arrangement for a competing product with the data domain platform so it was really like you know I compared to going to Hogwarts right where you have all of these different houses and we came in with with data domain and and I think the thing that really the glue that really helped it come to get was Joe Tucci you know tapping Frank's Luqman on the shoulder as the leader to bring this together and taking what was the borough division and and reforming it as the BRS division and I think we came together very quickly as a team even though people came from all of these different backgrounds you know standing for these different products rich let me follow up on that because there's a lot of M&A activity going on right now and and not very many big M&A deals are ultimately successful it turns out so what you said a little bit about you know Joe and Frank you know coming together but what are some of the other attributes that you would say that made it work it actually did what everybody hopes on an acquisition which is take great technology put it into a big sales machine and watch it grow and grow I think part of it you know quite frankly just comes down to the product and being differentiated because there are a lot of products out there and and if you take a step back they have good things that they're doing but it's very hard to find a product that says hey you're doing something that even if you put the blueprints out there it's very hard for other people to follow in those footsteps and create a similar value proposition and I think I think in this case it was a differentiated product and it had a lot of energy of its own and and I think from an EMC perspective they just stood back and said let's take this momentum and and play it out and see how how far it can take itself unfortunately I think a lot of times they don't do that right a lot of times acquiring companies don't just take this great thing and kind of get out of the way and add the juice where they can but you try to to try to change it so that's a really nice statement on Joe to G and what he was able to accomplish yeah no he was fantastic for us and and his support was tremendous but also his you know delegation and and kind of seeing how this but you know kind of having a vision of how this business unit should be formed right I think what was was very prison and then now you're part of Dell so obviously Michael Dell big personality as well the Dell technology stories he's doing a great job of pulling all these pieces together and you know kind of reinvigorating the brand coming back out of the little little side bar you know make it private for a while and come back so I wonder if you can talk about that integration how's that going as you've gone now a couple of times well I think it's been very exciting for us because the one piece that EMC had always been lacking had been the the compute part of the picture and now we have really the ability to go in and talk about the entire stack with our customers and that's that's a lot more powerful than saying here is an element of it and then if you want to go and add compute to that perhaps you know put in your virtual or physical servers then you're gonna we're going to need to partner with somebody and you know it's it's just a much cleaner story from end to end right right so the big big change obviously that wasn't around ten years ago that is around today is public cloud right huge impact not only directly in in taking workloads to the public cloud but also I think much more importantly changing the way people think about provisioning thinking about the way people think about elastic capacity so as as the market has evolved the rise of AWS and any other public clouds how has that changed what you guys are doing how are you reacting to that house at a new opportunity you know to kind of grow the maturity of the core product yeah well the thing is we have taken a lot of approach you know that's been learning and evolving as well right so so you know developers and applications really figured out AWS and the public cloud early I think data protection has has followed along with a couple years of lag in terms of doing that so you know our perspective is we learned as well right so so 2015 2016 I think there was some resistance and I think ultimately when we started to follow those workloads into the cloud there was a little bit of a lift and shift what we've learned is that the architecture really matters when you get to the cloud so the efficient use of resources the ability to do things in a cloud like way to use for example object storage instead of block storage when when the case presents itself so we took our products and virtualize them and followed them into the cloud but we realized that just taking the on-premise version of the product and putting it in the cloud itself isn't enough right because at the end of the day the customer is paying for all the underlying resources and so if your architecture is an efficient from a cost perspective as well as a performance perspective it's not going to be a viable solution and so 2017-2018 we've really seen a big acceleration in our adoption in the cloud because we have adapted our architecture to be more cloud friendly and more cost-effective for our customers to deploy but it was a learning experience for sure you know and and I think we're continuing to learn and continue to develop in that space and there's a lot of opportunity ahead of us the other big change I think that's come that we see over and over and over is really data as an asset only as an asset but as a huge valuable asset that drives your business drives real lytx but then becomes actually something that drives your company value and I think we see that and the Facebook's of the world and the googles of the world of why they have these crazy high valuations relative to here to their revenue and their profits because they're getting value for the data alright great news for you right it used to be a sample the day of the day was a pain it was expensive to store I didn't want to keep it all now everyone wants all the data they want to analyze it in real time and they want to put it in a place where they can actually put multiple applications across that same data set to do all kinds of new analytics so again super opportunity for you guys people aren't storing any less data no absolutely yeah no the data amount being stored is definitely growing one of the things that we're seeing that that's this kind of pervasive is this idea of of really using the right data the right place the right time so accessibility to whether it is a data Lake or it is your protection copies or you know an instant access of your protection copies there's a lot of different thing customers are doing with data but it's no longer a one-size-fits-all proposition like it was back in the tape automation days where I'm just throwing all of this stuff into a box and and never accessing it again right so the dynamics are changing and continue to evolve I expect that if we have this conversation two or three years down the road we're going to see some amazing things happen in the next couple of years that and some of it we were not predicting now we're gonna find out as customer demand and as innovation guides us along right because then the other big piece is the media right we've talked about tapes and the original data domain was was in response to some issues with tape and we get spinning rust as everybody likes to call it and now of course flash so yeah again see change in terms of capability the cost is coming down it's no longer the super high-end thing just for super high value applications so very transfer transformative opportunity on the on the media side as well on the flashlight as well you hit on a couple of really key things data domain was very successful because it became viable and practical to displace tape automation and nobody was a fan of their tape automation environments and now I think we're gonna see that's that same shift you know spinning disk is right now being relegated to archival and backup purposes but we're gonna hit an inflection point very soon I think we're where every instance of spinning disk probably can be questioned and so we are actually doing the you know kind of getting ahead of that curve and coming out with all flash products as a choice for a customer so we'll still have spinning disk for some backup use cases but we'll also have you know be able to offer customers a choice of the data domain technology on an all flash set of platforms and that will give customers a chance to get out of the yeah that spinning disk business as well right good I wonder if I get what if I get chime in here I you guys were talking about the the technologies and the cloud and the architecture it's interesting it David the main really started out don't hate me for saying this but as a feature product and the key feature was data deduplication data domain had the best you had a lot of guys doing post process you had you know some guys trying to do server-side avemar itself for example but they domain really killed it with regard to data David II do and if this feature product became a platform and had an architecture people became as you know unicorn times 2 plus plus and so I wanted to ask you rich about that architecture and aware it can go you're talking about different media now beyond spinning disk you know it used to be just a kind of a dumb target you've now got integrated appliances you've got software that's integrated there so it's you know you talked about the scale and the capacity where do you see this architecture going I wonder if you could comment on yeah well I think a lot of that belongs in in the realm of the data management software that speaks to it and and by having a distributed ecosystem and having things like you know distributed segment processing so we can take data domains technology and extend it out into those data management activities because a lot of the what's happening in the market is as new workloads are coming into the market they're having their own methods and native tools built-in for data protection and to be able to leverage those and have a highly consolidated affect on the backend is still extremely valuable to our customers and you're right it was a differentiated product from a deduplication standpoint but really the feature was that I can keep my 30 60 or 90 days worth of copies that are separate from my primary copies so I putting them somewhere safe I can even put them under different governance from my primary storage or my primary application owners right and it's practical and feasible and and prior to that the only real way to do that was with tape automation deduplication has become more of a broader word itself and it goes beyond what data domain does so there's deduplication and primary storage but if you look at primary storage deduplication it's good but it's designed to help you reduce the use of primary storage by 2 or 3 times it doesn't touch on the 30 60 90 days of retention that data domain does so there the similar technologies and a common use of the word but but they're two different use cases that the the remains separate I think yeah and you know as a former practitioner the other you are I think a former customer the genius part of the genius of data domain was its ability to just plug in to existing processes yes you didn't have to change things up and so it was an easy in but but it's impressive that you've been able to keep that that architecture going I wanted to ask you about market share you aided them in has always had a sixty plus percent market share I think it's at sixty now but it's it's like the Cisco of purpose-built backhaul appliances you're able to sort of dominate that little segment of the market which keeps getting bigger what but now you've got a lot of new entrants you know on VC money pouring in a lot of noise in the marketplace I feel like you guys maybe a couple years ago took your eye off the wall and now you've got this renewed sense of a vigor you know maybe it was parked partly the acquisition but you know we've talked to Beth Phelan about this a number of times you've really refreshed the portfolio so so wonder if you can talk about that and my question is what gives you confidence that you can continue to maintain your dominance yeah that's a great question and things have really changed I think starting around 2014 we were having some internal conversations about things like simplification the consumerization of IT and and all of those those dollars that you're talking about are really being poured into companies that are trying to take a different approach they're going into the white space that we had kind of left open which was simplicity right if you if you look back 10 or 15 years and you look at the the data management and enterprise backup software space enterprise backup software has been complicated and as you add more use cases it has become even more complicated and the customer base is no longer tolerant of that that's something that that maybe 10 or 15 years ago that was kind of a badge of honor to be working with complex and people just don't have the time for that there's a lot of IT generalists and folks that are out there that don't want to go to training class you know you know five days or ten days out of the year to learn how to use a product so that was a really good thing that we're seeing in the marketplace in terms of making products simpler easier to use and more approachable with things like discoverable functionality we certainly have the you know put a lot of effort into going in that direction because we think that's the right direction but what gives me confidence is the underlying storage value proposition about efficiency and performance and scale is something that we've still think that we have a strong upper hand on and when it comes down to that you know we take cloud as an example our data reduction in the cloud we think allows a much lower cost to serve and you know the customer is going to pay for that cloud storage or that cloud compute regardless of which vendor they're trusting in terms of their their solutions so simple only goes so far we think we can get there with simple but we don't necessarily see our competition having the efficiencies scalability and and so forth that we've already had so that that's good that gives me a lot of confidence so when you talk to customers what's the big problem the big hairy problem that they're trying to solve in your space and how are you guys helping so I one of the two big problems I see is is really a lot of IT teams are confronted with they've got a digital transformation going on they've got a cloud strategy going on an IT isn't necessarily being invited to the table early enough or often enough to go ahead and help with that process so what you have is you a cloud team building applications bringing things online and then the data protection the backups the snapshots whatever they're doing to make sure that that data is safe is is a bit of an afterthought and it you know I think of DevOps and I think about the ops part and I've never really come across an application team that wanted to own the business responsibility for the risk of you know backups recovery replication and all of that and I think IT has a lot of established practices that would be good to inform how those things should be built so the number one thing that I'm talking to with my customers when we're talking about this whole you know tectonic shift and in the way things are being done is that IT and the digital transformation or the cloud team do need to speak early and often and proactively about how they approach data protection because they continue to need to have a strategy that evolves and make sure they keep themselves protected as they start moving these critical workloads into the cloud it's an age-old problem with backup and data protection people think of it as a back as a bolt-on is an afterthought and your point is right on it's got to be a fundamental part of any transformation it's just like security you can't bolt it on earth just doesn't scale yeah and it's very much like you know back in the day when open systems was just coming of age there was a lot of operational discipline that the mainframe teams had and the mid-range teams had but the open systems was the Wild West and eventually open systems learned and and and a lot of that you know was knowledge sharing about best practices and you know Mis became IT now IT is becoming you know DevOps and digital transformation we're seeing a lot of that same dynamic happening again and and you know my main point is just you know start those conversations and if you're on the IT side start those conversations proactively you might not be getting invited to the digital transformation party invite yourself rich has been quite a 10 years and and as I was just watching an Andy Jazzy interview if you think the last 10 years have been crazy you ain't seen nothing yet so you guys are in a great position to stay agile and I'm gonna steal your line that it's no longer an honor to work on complicated systems that's great yeah it's been great being here thanks for having me and looking forward to maybe coming back in ten years and seeing what changed so hopefully we won't wait 10 years so rich thanks for stopping by Dave thanks for checking in from Boston and it's great to see you as well thanks you guys thanks Dave thanks Jeff [Music]