>> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome to the Fira in Barcelona, everybody. This is theCUBE's coverage of MWC 23, day one of that coverage. We have four days of wall-to-wall action going on, the place is going crazy. I'm here with Dave Nicholson, Lisa Martin is also in the house. Today's ecosystem day, and we're really excited to have Manish Singh who's the CTO of the Telecom Systems Business unit at Dell Technologies. He's joined by Doug Wolf who's the head of strategy for the Telecom Systems Business unit at Dell. Gents, welcome. What a show. I mean really the first major MWC or used to be Mobile World Congress since you guys have launched your telecom business, you kind of did that sort of in the Covid transition, but really exciting, obviously a huge, huge venue to match the huge market. So Manish, how did you guys get into this? What did you see? What was the overall thinking to get Dell into this business? >> Manish: Yeah, well, I mean just to start with you know, if you look at the telecom ecosystem today, the service providers in particular, they are looking for network transformation, driving more disaggregation into their network so that they can get better utilization of the infrastructure, but then also get more agility, more cloud native characteristics onto their, for their networks in particular. And then further on, it's important for them to really start to accelerate the pace of innovation on the networks itself, to start more supply chain diversity, that's one of the challenges that they've been having. And so there've been all these market forces that have been really getting these service providers to really start to transform the way they have built the infrastructure in the past, which was legacy monolithic architectures to more cloud native disaggregated. And from a Dell perspective, you know, that really gives us the permission to play, to really, given all the expertise on the work we have done in the IT with all the IT transformations to leverage all that expertise and bring that to the service providers and really help them in accelerating their network transformation. So that's where the journey started. We've been obviously ever since then working on expanding the product portfolio on our compute platforms to bring Teleco great compute platforms with more capabilities than we can talk about that. But then working with partners and building the ecosystem to again create this disaggregated and open ecosystem that will be more cloud native and really meet the objective that the service providers are after. >> Dave Vellante: Great, thank you. So, Doug the strategy obviously is to attack this market, as Manish said, from an open standpoint, that's sort of new territory. It's like a little bit like the wild, wild west. So maybe you could double click on what Manish was saying from a, from a strategy standpoint, yes, the Telecos need to be more flexible, they need to be more open, but they also need this reliability piece. So talk about that from a strategy standpoint of what you guys saw. >> Doug: Yeah, absolutely. As Manish mentioned, you know, Dell getting into open systems isn't something new. You know, Dell has been kind of playing in that world for years and years, but the opportunity in Telecom that came was opening of the RAN, the core network, the edge, all of these with 5G really created a wide opening for us. So we started developing products and solutions, you know, built our first Telecom grade servers for open RAN over the last year, we'll talk about those at the show. But you know, as, as Manish mentioned, an open ecosystem is new to Telecom. I've been in the Telecom business along with Manish for, you know, 25 plus years and this is a new thing that they're embarking on. So started with virtualization about five, six years ago, and now moving to cloud native architectures on the core, suddenly there's this need to have multiple parties partner really well, share specifications, and put that together for an operator to consume. And I think that's just the start of really where all the challenges are and the opportunities that we see. >> Where are we in this transition cycle? When the average consumer hears 5G, feels like it's been around for a long time because it was hyped beforehand. >> Doug: Yeah. >> If you're talking about moving to an open infrastructure model from a proprietary closed model, when is the opportunity for Dell to become part of that? Is it, are there specific sites that have already transitioned to 5G, therefore they've either made the decision to be open or not? Or are there places where the 5G transition has taken place, and they might then make a transition to open brand with 5G? Where, where are we in that cycle? What does the opportunity look like? >> I'll kind of take it from the typology of the operator, and I'm sure Manish will build on this, but if I look back on the core, started to get virtualized you know, back around 2015-16 with some of the lead operators like AT&T et cetera. So Dell has been partnering with those operators for some years. So it really, it's happening on the core, but it's moving with 5G to more of a cloud-like architecture, number one. And number two, they're going beyond just virtualizing the network. You know, they previously had used OpenStack and most of them are migrating to more of a cloud native architecture that Manish mentioned. And that is a bit different in terms of there's more software vendors in that ecosystem because the software is disaggregated also. So Dell's been playing in the core for a number of years, but we brought out new solutions we've announced at the show for the core. And the parts that are really starting that transition of maybe where the core was back in 2015 is on the RAN and on the edge in particular. >> Because NFV kind of predated the ascendancy of cloud. >> Exactly, yeah. >> Right, so it really didn't have the impact that people had hoped. And there's some, when you look back, 'cause it's not same wine, new bottle as the open systems movement, there are a lot of similarities but you know, you mentioned cloud, and cloud native, you really didn't have, back in the nineties, true engineered systems. You didn't really have AI that, you know, to speak of at the sort of volume of the data that we have. So Manish, from a CTO's perspective, how are you attacking some of those differences in bringing that to market? >> Manish: Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on some very important points there. So first of all, the duck's point, a lot of this transformation started in the core, right? And as the technology evolution progress, the opportunities opened up. It has now come into the edge and the radio access network as well, in particular with open RAN. And so when we talk about the disaggregation of the infrastructure from the software itself and an open ecosystem, this now starts to create the opportunity to accelerate innovation. And I really want to pick up on the point that you'd said on AI, for example. AI and machine learning bring a whole new set of capabilities and opportunities for these service providers to drive better optimization, better performance, better sustainability and energy efficiency on their infrastructure, on and on and on. But to really tap into these technologies, they really need to open that up to third parties implementation solutions that are coming up. And again, the end objective remains to accelerate that innovation. Now that said, all these things need to be brought together, right? And delivered and deployed in the network without any degradation in the KPIs and actually improving the performance on different vectors, right? So this is what the current state of play is. And with this aggregation I'm definitely a believer that all these new technologies, including AI, machine learning, and there's a whole area, host area of problems that can be solved and attacked and are actually getting attacked by applying AI and machine learning onto these networks. >> Open obviously is good. Nobody's ever going to, you know, argue that open is a bad thing. It's like democracy is a good thing, right? At least amongst us. And so, but, the RAN, the open RAN, has to be as reliable and performant, right, as these, closed networks. Or maybe not, maybe it doesn't have to be identical. Just has to be close enough in order for that tipping point to occur. Is that a fair summarization? What are you guys hearing from carriers in terms of their willingness to sort of put their toe in the water and, and what could we expect in terms of the maturity model of, of open RAN and adoption? >> Right, so I mean I think on, on performance that, that's a tough one. I think the operators will demand performance and you've seen experiments, you've really seen more of the Greenfield operators kind of launch. >> Okay. >> Doug: Open RAN or vRAN type solutions. >> So they're going to disrupt. >> Doug: Yeah, they're going to disrupt. >> Yeah. >> Doug: And there's flexibility in an open RAN architecture also for 5G that they, that they're interested in and I think the Brownfield operators are too, but let's say maybe the Greenfield jump first in terms of doing that from a mass deployment perspective. But I still think that it's going to be critical to meet very similar SLAs and end user performance. And, you know, I think that's where, you know, maturity of that model is what's required. I think Brownfield operators are conservative in terms of, you know, going with something they know, but the opportunities and the benefits of that architecture and building new flexible, potentially cost advantaged over time solutions, that's what the, where the real interest is going forward. >> And new services that you can introduce much more quickly. You know, the interesting thing about Dell to me, you don't compete with the carriers, the public cloud vendors though, the carriers are concerned about them sort of doing an end run on them. So you provide a potential partnership for the carriers that's non-threatening, right? 'Cause you're, you're an arms dealer, you're selling hardware and software, right? But, but how do you see that? Because we heard in the keynote today, one of the Teleco, I think it was the chairman of Telefonica said, you know, cloud guys can't do this alone. You know, they need, you know, this massive, you know, build out. And so, what do you think about that in terms of your relationship with the carriers not being threatening? I mean versus say potentially the cloud guys, who are also your partners, I understand, it's a really interesting dynamic, isn't it? >> Manish: Yeah, I mean I think, you know, I mean, the way I look at it, the carriers actually need someone like Dell who really come in who can bring in the right capabilities, the right infrastructure, but also bring in the ecosystem together and deliver a performance solution that they can deploy and that they can trust, number one. Number two, to your point on cloud, I mean, from a Dell perspective, you know, we announced our Dell Telecom Multicloud Foundation and as part of that last year in September, we announced what we call is the Dell Telecom Infrastructure Blocks. The first one we announced with Wind River, and this is, think of it as the, you know, hardware and the cashier all pre-integrated with lot of automation around it, factory integrated, you know, delivered to customers in an integrated model with all the licenses, everything. And so it starts to solve the day zero, day one, day two integration deployment and then lifecycle management for them. So to broaden the discussion, our view is it's a multicloud world, the future is multicloud where you can have different clouds which can be optimized for different workloads. So for example, while our work with Wind River initially was very focused on virtualization of the radio access network, we just announced our infrastructure block with Red Hat, which is very much targeted and optimized for core network and edge, right? So, you know, there are different workflows which will require different capabilities also. And so, you know, again, we are bringing those things to these service providers to again, bring those cloud characteristics and cloud native architecture for their network. >> And It's going to be hybrid, to your point. >> David N.: And you, just hit on something, you said cloud characteristics. >> Yeah. >> If you look at this through the lens of kind of the general world of IT, sometimes when people hear the word cloud, they immediately leap to the idea that it's a hyperscale cloud provider. In this scenario we're talking about radio towers that have intelligence living on them and physically at the base. And so the cloud characteristics that you're delivering might be living physically in these remote locations all over the place, is that correct? >> Yeah, I mean that, that's true. That will definitely happen over time. But I think, I think we've seen the hyperscalers enter, you know, public cloud providers, enter at the edge and they're dabbling maybe with private, but I think the public RAN is another further challenge. I think that maybe a little bit down the road for them. So I think that is a different characteristic that you're talking about managing the macro RAN environment. >> Manish: If I may just add one more perspective of this cloud, and I mean, again, the hyperscale cloud, right? I mean that world's been great when you can centralize a lot of compute capability and you can then start to, you know, do workload aggregation and use the infrastructure more efficient. When it comes to Telecom, it is inherently it distributed architecture where you have access, you talked about radio access, your port, and it is inherently distributed because it has to provide the coverage and capacity. And so, you know, it does require different kind of capabilities when you're going out and about, and this is where I was talking about things like, you know, we just talked, we just have been working on our bare metal orchestration, right? This is what we are bringing is a capability where you can actually have distributed infrastructure, you can deploy, you can actually manage, do lifecycle management, in a distributed multicloud form. So it does require, you know, different set of capabilities that need to be enabled. >> Some, when talking about cloud, would argue that it's always been information technology, it always will be information technology, and especially as what we might refer to as public cloud or hyperscale cloud providers, are delivering things essentially on premises. It's like, well, is that cloud? Because it feels like some of those players are going to be delivering physical infrastructure outside of their own data centers in order to address this. It seems the nature, the nature of the beast is that some of these things need to be distributed. So it seems perfectly situated for Dell. That's why you guys are both at Dell now and not working for other Telecom places, right? >> Exactly. Exactly, yes. >> It's definitely an exciting space. It's transformed, the networks are under transformation and I do think that Dell's very well positioned to, to really help the customers, the service providers in accelerating their transformation journey with an open ecosystem. >> Dave V.: You've got the brand, and the breadth, and the resources to actually attract an ecosystem. But I wonder if you could sort of take us through your strategy of ecosystem, the challenges that you've seen in developing that ecosystem and what the vision is that ultimately, what's the outcome going to be of that open ecosystem? >> Yeah, I can start. So maybe just to give you the big picture, right? I mean the big picture, is disaggregation with performance, right, TCO models to the service providers, right? And it starts at the infrastructure layer, builds on bringing these cloud capabilities, the cast layer, right? Bringing the right accelerators. All of this requires to pull the ecosystem. So give you an example on the infrastructure in a Teleco grade servers like XR8000 with Sapphire, the new intel processors that we've just announced, and an extended array of servers. These are Teleco grade, short depth, et cetera. You know, the Teleco great characteristic. Working with the partners like Marvel for bringing in the accelerators in there, that's important to again, drive the performance and optimize for the TCO. Working then with partners like Wind River, Red Hat, et cetera, to bring in the cast capabilities so you can start to see how this ecosystem starts to build up. And then very recently we announced our private 5G solution with AirSpan and Expeto on the core site. So bringing those workloads together. Similarly, we have an open RAN solution we announce with Fujitsu. So it's, it's open, it's disaggregated, but bringing all these together. And one of the last things I would say is, you know, to make all this happen and make all of these, we've also been putting together our OTEL, our open Telecom ecosystem lab, which is very much geared, really gives this open ecosystem a playground where they can come in and do all that heavy lifting, which is anyways required, to do the integration, optimization, and board. So put all these capabilities in place, but the end goal, the end vision again, is that cloud native disaggregated infrastructure that starts to innovate at the speed of software and scales at the speed of cloud. >> And this is different than the nineties. You didn't have something like OTEL back then, you know, you didn't have the developer ecosystem that you have today because on top of everything that you just said, Manish, are new workloads and new applications that are going to be developed. Doug, anything you'd add to what Manish said? >> Doug: Yeah, I mean, as Manish said, I think adding to the infrastructure layers, which are, you know, critical for us to, to help integrate, right? Because we kind of took a vertical Teleco stack and we've disaggregated it, and it's gotten a little bit more complex. So our Solutions Dell Technology infrastructure block, and our lab infrastructure with OTEL, helps put those pieces together. But without the software players in this, you know, that's what we really do, I think in OTEL. And that's just starting to grow. So integrating with those software providers with that integration is something that the operators need. So we fill a gap there in terms of either providing engineered solutions so they can readily build on or actually bringing in that software provider. And I think that's what you're going to see more from us going forward is just extending that ecosystem even further. More software players effectively. >> In thinking about O-RAN, are they, is it possible to have the low latency, the high performance, the reliability capabilities that carriers are used to and the flexibility? Or can you sort of prioritize one over the other from a go to market and rollout standpoint and optimize one, maybe get a foothold in the market? How do you see that balance? >> Manish: Oh the answer is absolutely yes you can have both We are on that journey, we are on that journey. This is where all these things I was talking about in terms of the right kind of accelerators, right kind of capabilities on the infrastructure, obviously retargeting the software, there are certain changes, et cetera that need to be done on the software itself to make it more cloud native. And then building all the surrounding capabilities around the CICD pipeline and all where it's not just day zero or day one that you're doing the cloud-like lifecycle management of this infrastructure. But the answer to your point, yes, absolutely. It's possible, the technology is there, and the ecosystem is coming together, and that's the direction. Now, are there challenges? Absolutely there are challenges, but directionally that's the direction the industry is moving to. >> Dave V.: I guess my question, Manish, is do they have to go in lockstep? Because I would argue that the public cloud when it first came out wasn't nearly as functional as what I could get from my own data center in terms of recovery, you know, backup and recovery is a perfect example and it took, you know, a decade plus to get there. But it was the flexibility, and the openness, and the developer affinity, the programmability, that attracted people. Do you see O-RAN following a similar path? Or does it, my question is does it have to have that carrier class reliability today? >> David N.: Everything on day one, does it have to have everything on day one? >> Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, like again, the Greenfield operators I think we're, we're willing do a little bit more experimentation. I think the operators, Brownfield operators that have existing, you know, deployments, they're going to want to be closer. But I think there's room for innovation here. And clearly, you know, Manish came from, from Meta and we're, we've been very involved with TIP, we're very involved with the O-RAN alliance, and as Manish mentioned, with all those accelerators that we're working with on our infrastructure, that is a space that we're trying to help move the ball forward. So I think you're seeing deployments from mainstream operators, but it's maybe not in, you know, downtown New York deployment, they're more rural deployments. I think that's getting at, you know, kind of your question is there's maybe a little bit more flexibility there, they get to experiment with the technology and the flexibility and then I think it will start to evolve >> Dave V.: And that's where the disruption's going to come from, I think. >> David N.: Well, where was the first place you could get reliable 4K streaming of video content? It wasn't ABC, CBS, NBC. It was YouTube. >> Right. >> So is it possible that when you say Greenfield, are a lot of those going to be what we refer to as private 5G networks where someone may set up a private 5G network that has more functions and capabilities than the public network? >> That's exactly where I was going is that, you know, that that's why you're seeing us getting very active in 5G solutions that Manish mentioned with, you know, Expeto and AirSpan. There's more of those that we haven't publicly announced. So I think you'll be seeing more announcements from us, but that is really, you know, a new opportunity. And there's spectrum there also, right? I mean, there's public and private spectrum. We plan to work directly with the operators and do it in their spectrum when needed. But we also have solutions that will do it, you know, on non-public spectrum. >> So let's close out, oh go ahead. You you have something to add there? >> I'm just going to add one more point to Doug's point, right? Is if you look on the private 5G and the end customer, it's the enterprise, right? And they're, they're not a service provider. They're not a carrier. They're more used to deploying, you know, enterprise infrastructure, maintaining, managing that. So, you know, private 5G, especially with this open ecosystem and with all the open run capabilities, it naturally tends to, you know, blend itself very well to meet those requirements that the enterprise would have. >> And people should not think of private 5G as a sort of a replacement for wifi, right? It's to to deal with those, you know, intense situations that can afford the additional cost, but absolutely require the reliability and the performance and, you know, never go down type of scenario. Is that right? >> Doug: And low latencies usually, the primary characteristics, you know, for things like Industry 4.0 manufacturing requirements, those are tough SLAs. They're just, they're different than the operator SLAs for coverage and, you know, cell performance. They're now, you know, Five9 type characteristics, but on a manufacturing floor. >> That's why we don't use wifi on theCUBE to broadcast, we need a hard line. >> Yeah, but why wouldn't it replace wifi over time? I mean, you know, I still have a home phone number that's hardwired to align, but it goes to a voicemail. We don't even have handset anymore for it, yeah. >> I think, well, unless the cost can come down, but I think that wifi is flexible, it's cheap. It's, it's kind of perfect for that. >> Manish: And it's good technology. >> Dave V.: And it works great. >> David N.: For now, for now. >> Dave V.: But you wouldn't want it in those situations, and you're arguing that maybe. >> I'm saying eventually, what, put a sim in a device, I don't know, you know, but why not? >> Yeah, I mean, you know, and Dell offers, you know, from our laptop, you know, our client side, we do offer wifi, we do offer 4G and 5G solutions. And I think those, you know, it's a volume and scale issue, I think for the cost structure you're talking about. >> Manish: Come to our booth and see the connected laptop. >> Dave V.: Well let's, let's close on that. Why don't you guys talk a little bit about what you're going on at the show, I did go by the booth, you got a whole big lineup of servers. You got some, you know, cool devices going on. So give us the rundown and you know, let's end with the takeaways here. >> The simple rundown, a broad range of new powered servers, broad range addressing core, edge, RAN, optimized for those with all the different kind of acceleration capabilities. You can see that, you can see infrastructure blocks. These are with Wind River, with Red Hat. You can see OTEL, the open telecom ecosystem lab where all that playground, the integration, the real work, the real sausage makings happening. And then you will see some interesting solutions in terms of co-creation that we are doing, right? So you, you will see all of that and not to forget the connected laptops. >> Dave V.: Yeah, yeah, cool. >> Doug: Yeah and, we mentioned it before, but just to add on, I think, you know, for private 5G, you know, we've announced a few offers here at the show with partners. So with Expeto and AirSpan in particular, and I think, you know, I just want to emphasize the partnerships that we're doing. You know, we're doing some, you know, fundamental integration on infrastructure, bare metal and different options for the operators to get engineered systems. But building on that ecosystem is really, the move to cloud native is where Dell is trying to get in front of. And we're offering solutions and a much larger ecosystem to go after it. >> Dave V.: Great. Manish and Doug, thanks for coming on the program. It was great to have you, awesome discussion. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We're seeing the disaggregation of the Teleco network into open ecosystems with integration from companies like Dell and others. Keep it right there for theCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. We'll be right back. (upbeat tech music)

(uptempo orchestral music) >> Welcome to theCubeConversations here in Palo Alto, California. theCube Studios, I'm John Furrier. The co-host of theCube, and co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. Junaid Islam is the present CTO of Vidder that supports the public sector as well as the defense community as well as other criminalist oriented security paradigms. Expert in the field. Also part of coming Vidder that's doing a lot of work in the area. Thanks for sharing your time here with us. >> Well thanks for having me. >> We had a segment earlier on cybersecurity and the government. So that was phenomenal and also, we talked on the impact of hacking on business. So the number one issue on the boardroom agenda is security. Data, security, it's a big data problem. It's an AI opportunity, some things that are coming out. Embryonic, it's an early shift. Security is a challenge. The old model, the firewall, a moot, doors, access, you get in then you're done. It's over, it's a criminalist world. People can get access to these networks. Security is screwed right now. And we generally feels that. So the question for you is the Enterprise and in business as we're looking to show up security. Isn't it a do-over? >> Yeah, yeah, I think like other industries. Whether you talk about the PBS. Yes, yes, where you talk about computers shifting to the data center and then the cloud. I think last year or this year, Gartner said 100 billion will be spent on security. I cannot believe anybody who was involved in that 100 billion dollar expenditure is happy. In fact we have something interesting. Security expenditure has risen consistently over the past five or six years, and cyber attacks have also risen consistently. So that's not the kind of correlation you want. >> And they're buying anything that moves basically, they're desperate so it seems like they're like drunken sailors. Just like give me something. They're thirsty for solutions. So they're groping for something. >> Yeah and what we're seeing is a couple of things. One is the attackers have gotten much more sophisticated. And they basically can bypass all of the existing security appliances. So what we need is a new approach or a new security stack that really fits both the architectural environment of American companies where they use Clouds and data centers, and they have employees and contractors. But also cyber attacks which have gone much more sophisticated. The classic cyber attack used to be connecting to the Server remotely or stealing a password. We still have the classics but we have some new ones where we have malware that can actually go from the user's device to inside the network. And you find that existing security products just don't work well in this environment. >> What are some of the do over ideas? >> Absolutely malware, we see it ransomware, super hot, the HBO example recently. They didn't given, who knows what they actually did. They weren't public about it but actually they maybe get a little bit in but these are organized businesses. They're targeting with the Sony hacks well documented but again businesses, I'm not always funded this. And then you got the move to the clouds. Couple dynamics. Cloud computing. Amazon has done extremely well, they're leading. Now getting a lot more of the Enterprise. They won the CIA deal a few years ago over IBM. And you see a lot of government Cloud rocking and rolling, and then you've got the on premise data center challenges. That's the situation of the customer then now you have potentially an understaffed security force. >> Well actually so, I think let's start with that point. In terms of our theme of a do over. Talk about that first and then let's talk the techno part. I think one do over that America needs is security has to move out of the IT department, and become a stand alone department reporting ideally to the executive staff and not being on it. I think one of the unfortunate things is because security is a cost center within IT, it competes with other IT expenditures such as new applications, which are revenue generating. It's very hard to be a cost center asking for money when there's a guy sitting next to you who's doing something to make money. But unfortunately, unless security is properly funded and staffed, it never happens. And this unfortunately is a chronic issue through all US companies. One of the things we've seen that has worked for example in the financial world is most financial institutions, probably all now security is a pure organization to IT, that helps a lot. This is actually not a new idea, this was something the intelligence community probably started-- >> Cost structures, it's just the cost structures. Reduce the cost is the optimization behavior. What you're saying is just like applications are tied to top line in revenue, which gives them top line mojo. You got to think of security as a money saving table stake. >> That's right. >> People are losing money. The cost are now becoming obvious, in some cases crippling. >> Yeah so I think people need to think of security as fundamental to the life of a company, number one. I think the other thing that needs to happen from a security perspective. Now that we've broken off this entity is it security needs to become a threat based or risk based. Too much of security in the United States is based on compliance models. Unfortunately cyber attackers do not follow that model when they want to attack us. They basically work outside the model and come up with creative ways to get inside of organizations. >> Basically blindside. >> That's right. >> The company. >> I can't tell you how many meetings probably all where I meet the security team and they're totally busy just going through the list of 20 or 50 things that they're are supposed to do. So when you talk about attack vectors. They say you know that's really great and I know it's important but we can't get to it. So this is another important shift organizationally. First you break it out. Second, get focus on something that's important. once we have that we get to the next part which is technologies. And right now what happens is people buy a security point product for different networks. One for data center or one for Cloud. And this doesn't work so I think we have to move to security solutions that can work across hybrid environments, and can also work across different roles. I think that is critical and unless we get that in technically. >> Yeah, this is the thing with Cloud and (indistinct talking). I want to bring this up. I had multiple change to sit down with Andy Jassy. The CEO of Amazon web services. Fantastic executive, built a great business there. On his mind, what's been important for him for many years has been security, and Amazon has done an amazing job with security. But that's in the Cloud. Now Andy Jassy and Amazon thinks everyone should be in the public Cloud. Now they have a deal with VMware but they're just powering VMware's on prem in their Cloud. It's not really a VMware issue but Amazon's world is raising the public Cloud. But they've done really, really good on security, but yet most of the buyers would say hey, the Cloud is unsecure I can't trust it. So you have the dynamic between the data center on premise resource. So people default to the behavior of and leaving here with the on premise. Or I'll put a little bit in the cloud, a little bit of workloads here. A little bit in the Microsoft. Google's got some, I'll keep the tire on Google. But they never really leaving the home base of the data center. But yet some are arguing and Dave Vellante, my co-host on theCube talks about this all the time. There's actually more scale in the Cloud. More data sharing going in the cloud and that the cloud actually got better security. So how do you see that resolving because this is a key architectural opportunity and challenge for Enterprise. >> Actually I think there's an optimal model which is if you think about what the data center gives you. It gives you a lot of visibility and physical control as in with your hands. The problem is when you put everything in the data center. You don't have enough people to manage it all properly. The Cloud on the other hand gives you a lot of scale but you can't actually touch the Cloud. So the optimal mix is imagine your encryption and access control solutions live in your data center. But what they control access to is to Cloud resources. So you can actually, if you're just open your mind conceptually. >> So it's like saying, it's like segmenting a network. You're segmenting feasibility. >> That's right, so now you don't need a gigantic data center because what's in your data center which can be a lot smaller now are things like your identity-based access management solutions. You can keep your cryptographic elements. You can have your HSM, things that generate random numbers and search there. But now this is actually can be very tiny. It can just be a rack of gear. But through that rack of gear, you can have very fine control of people accessing Cloud resources. And I think this idea of building, it's not so much a hybrid network, but it's a notion that a small physically locked down asset can control a lot of virtual assets. It's gaining mind share in the banking world. In fact, just this summer, there was bank that implemented such an architecture where the control elements were the Cloud were their FFIC data center. And it include, it basically managed access to Amazon VPC and it worked well. >> So interlocking is a strategy. I can see that, by the way I see that playing out pretty well. So I got to ask the next question which comes to mind is that sounds great on paper. Or actually in certain situations it might perfect. But what about the geo-political landscape? because Amazon has people that develop on the Cloud that aren't US citizens. So the government might say wait a minute, you got to only employ Americans so they got to carve out and do some whatever weird doings with the numbers to get that certification. But they need data centers in Germany because the German government wants certain things. So you have geo-political issues now on the companies. How does that affect security? Because now a Cloud like Amazon or a multinational company has two things going on. I have multiple offices and I'm operating in multiple geo-political landscapes with these regional centers. The regional clouds, or at Amazon they're called regions. >> So actually Amazon has actually done a great job. They basically have their global market, but they also have data centers now which are only opened to US persons in US companies like Globe Cloud. As well as well as they support the C2S which is the intelligence communities Black Cloud, which is basically off net so I think now-- >> John: So they're doing a good job? >> Yeah, they're doing a good job but the key thing is how you use that resource is really still up to the enterprise. And that's where enterprises have to get good at creating the architecture and policies to be able to harness Amazon's compute capacity. Amazon, is the foundation but you really have to finish off the solution and the other thing going back full circle to your first question. Unless the security team has their freedom and the mandate to do that, they'll actually never get there. >> So it's staffing and architecture. >> That's right. >> Well they both architecture. It's one's organizational architecture. Debt funding and one is more of a hardcore virtual and physical touching. >> And you know what I put in the middle? I'd say know your risks and develop counter measures to them. because if you go to that security team and you say you have to build a counter measure for every attack. That's not going to work either. A company has to be realistic is what is really important? Maybe it's the data of our customers. >> So the answer to the first question then obviously is yes a security do over is needed. But there is no silver bullet and you can't buy an application, it's an architectural framework holistically >> Junaid: That's right. >> That everyone has to do, okay cool. So the question I have on the Amazon, I want to get your thoughts 'cause it's a debate we have all the time on theCube is. And certainly Amazon has competitors that say, Amazon is really not winning in the enterprise. They've got thousand of Enterprise customers. They are winning in the Enterprise so Oracle is catching up, barely in fourth place. But trying to get there and they're actually making that transformation. Looking pretty good, what more now assume that Oracle will (indistinct talking). But Amazon has one great gov Cloud deals. So they're convinced the government that they could do it. >> Junaid: Yeah. >> So to me that's, my argument is if the government is winning with Amazon. It should be a no brainer for the Enterprises so this comes back down to the number one question that's been holding back Cloud growth. Whoa, security, I don't want to put it in the Cloud. How real is that objection now? 'Cause the knee jerk reaction is you know what, I got an on prem, I don't trust the Cloud. But it seems like the Cloud is getting more trust. What's your thoughts on that objection? >> So one of the things as even though when we use the word Cloud, generically or Amazon generically. Amazon has evolved a lot in the last three to four years that I've been working on it. The number of embedded tools in Amazon is vast now. If we were having this conversation two years ago. The notion that granular encryption modules would be there and Amazon is apart of an offering. It would have been science fiction or the fact that-- >> More that S3 and AC2, what else could there be? >> That's right or they have things like virtual HSM. They have embedded identity and access control tools all there so I think first of all. All of the building blocks that you would want are there. Now unfortunately there's no short cuts. Amazon is not going to do the work for you, you still need a staff that knows how to use digital certificates. You still need your own identity based access control system to manage access of your employees and contractors and people in India to these assets in the Cloud. But having said that, we now actually have a model that is much cheaper than the classic data center model. That's basically usable. >> I'm smirking some people think I'm an Amazon web services fan boy but besides the fact that I love the company. They've done well and there's so many new services, and they literally have been skating rings around the competition. If you look at the complexity that they have been dealing with and the innovations. So the outputs put that out there. I'm a little biased 'cause I think they're doing a great job. But now, the game start to shift as Amazon continues to add more services. Welcome to the big leagues called the Enterprise and government, which they're doing some business in now. So the question is besides Amazon, those other guys. Verizon, the Telecos have really trying to figure out what to do with over the top for years. Now they're also powering a lot of multi tenet workloads as well, including their own stuff. So telecos and service providers out there, what are they doing because they're still critical infrastructure around the world. >> Actually, I think if we just use Amazon as a reference point or example. Amazon initially didn't worry about security but then over the last few years, worked hard to integrate security into their offering. We're now in the early stages of seeing that from for example carriers like Verizon. Where in the past Verizon was saying first secure yourself then in the last two years. Version okay, here's some products and services you can buy. But now where we're heading is they're trying to make the network inherently secure. A lot of the basic components like device matching to identity matching basically making that apart of the underlying fabric. So I think the good news is as-- >> So they're making advances there. They have networks. They know networking. >> So the good news is as bleak as it all seems as we are making significant progress as an industry and as a country. Having said that, my only and warning is you still need an executive team. A security team that knows how to leverage all of these components and pull them together. And that goes back to having a risk based approach and protecting the most important things. I think you can do that, I think the tool set that's come out now is actually pretty sophisticated. >> So final question, I want to get your thoughts and we can end the segment and then we'll take a little bit about Vidder, your company. But I asked Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware at VM World just recently about the security duo 'cause Dave Vellante asked him years ago. He said absolutely it's going to be (indistinct talking) so Pat Gelsinger has it right again. The guy is like Nostradamus when it comes to tech trend. He's a wave guy from Intel, so he gets the waves. But I asked him about that question again this year and I'll send the tip out on Twitter. I'll put it out on Twitter, I'll make a link to it. He said that 5G is going to be the big kahuna of the next 30 years. He thinks that as 5G starts to get out, it's going to develop 10X number of antennas, 100X of bandwidth, new spectrum allocations, 100X new devices, they're all going to be connected as well. As you mentioned we're a connected world. This brings up the edges of the network where he says, "Next thirty years is going to be massive build out." So okay, 5G is coming. Industrial IoT, IoT internet of things is happening. How is this going to change a security game because now you have networking and you see VMware. We're doing NSX and Cisco has been trying to the Enterprise figuring out the virtualization of network level. Everything comes back down to the network. Is that where the action is because it seems to me that the network guys have to figure this out. And that seems to be the point of reference in terms of opportunity. Or is it a challenge or is it moving up the stack. How does all the networking changes happen? >> So for IoT, we really need two things to happen. I think one is we actually don't have a security standard for IoT devices. And specifically the issue is malware. IoT devices and softwares made worldwide and I think one of the biggest policy weaknesses we have right now is there's no minimum standard. This needs to be solved, otherwise we're in a lot of problem but in parallel to that. There is a lot of technical development. One of the things that's happening in the networking world is for the past 20 years. We were driven by what's called a network VPN of Layer 3 VPN, it's your classic VPN, that connects a device to a server. The problem with that is if you have malware on the device it gets through. So there's this new kind of VPN which is an application VPN or we call it a Layer 4, which is basically a softer process in the device tool. A softer process in a server. So that's the new model, which is-- >> They're making them as dumb as possible and go up the stat. >> Not so much-- >> There were guys that are going to roll-- >> I could have used different terms. I could have say make the app network application aware so that it only lets the applications get through. Not any kind of connection, so I think that is something. >> Well the networks have to smarter and enable the smartness. >> So smarter networks are happening and it's an area that I worked in. It's very excited. >> John: I don't mean to offend you by saying dumb network-- >> But the application but to be clear though that's just one piece of the puzzle. The other piece of the puzzle which unfortunately is a little bit lacking is there's no standards for IoT software today. And unless we have concepts like secure boot, that is the software can't be tampered with. I think I've unfortunately there's a bit of risk but I'm hopeful-- >> And then IoT for folks watching, there might be any inside baseball. It's a surface area problem. There's more points of attack vectors, so we talk about the compliance thing. >> Not only are there more attacks, by and large IoT devices are made outside of the United States. Physically they are made in China and a lot of the software comes from India. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the global supply chain provides plenty of opportunities for cyber attackers to inject in their code. And this is something we need to watch very carefully and then like I said-- >> So this is actually one of those weird derivative results of outsourcing that American companies have realized that's a problem. >> Yeah so. >> Is that right? >> Yeah so it's something we need to watch carefully. >> Okay, thanks for coming on the theCube. Really appreciate you sharing your perspectives. Talk about Vidder, you're the president and CTO. You guys in the security business. Obviously you're an expert with (indistinct talking). We'll have you back and multiple times. I'd love to get your company as we follow all the security trends. We have a cyber connect conference with Centrified coming up in New York. We're covering gov Cloud AWS and other players out there. What's Vidder doing? What's the company do for products? How do you guys sell? Who's your customers and what are the cool things you're doing? >> We've developed a access control solution based on a new standard called software defined parameter. And there's two things that are unique about it. First with technology like software defined parameter. We work in the Cloud in the data center, but more importantly, we're able to stop existing attacks and emerging attacks. So things like password theft, credential theft of server exploitation we stop because we don't want to allow connections from unknown devices or people. The other thing is say you're known, and you connect with server. We basically look inside your laptop and only allow the authorized process to connect to the server. So if there's malware on the device, it can't actually make it through. >> John: So it shuts down the malware. >> That's right. >> John: So you're trying sneak through. >> That's right, the malware. We can't stop the malware from getting on the device, but we can make sure it doesn't get to the other side. >> So it doesn't cross pollinate. It doesn't go viral. >> That right so a lot of the stuff we do is very important. We work with a range of-- >> You have government, obviously contracts. I'm sure you have that can't talk about but you do right? >> Yeah we do a little bit of work with the government and we're just start working with Verizon, which is public. Where they wish to create services where malware actually can't go through the connections. So we're doing exciting stuff and we're-- >> Enterprise customers at all? >> Yeah, yeah we have banks. >> Who are on high alert. >> That's right. >> You guys do tier one or it's the houses are burning down, you're there. So we do banks and we're just started doing some work in a hospital were again it's (indistinct talking) compliant, and they need to make sure that data doesn't leave the hospital. >> So what's the number one thing that you guys have as ransomware something that you solve. What areas do you guys being called in? What's the big fire bell, if you will? They ring the bell when do you come in? What the thing, just in general? >> Our number one reason for existing is stopping attacks on application servers or service that old data. That's our focus. So if you have data or an application that someone is after. We will make sure nobody gets to that data. In fact, we'll even make sure if there's a spy, or insider attack, who comes into your organization. They'll only be able to what their allowed to do and won't be able to do anything else. >> So on the weekly Fox that was big. Would you guys have helped there is they were a customer or is that just different thing? >> I know we could have helped because one of the things that happened is they used their server exploit to basically propagate through their data center. So we probably wouldn't have done much on the initial exploit, but we would have kept it from going deeper into the system. >> And they hid for four months and they were poking around so you would have detected. >> Yeah and we certainly would have stopped all the poking around. Because we basically, you can think of us as an identity based access control mechanism. So based on your identity, you can only do very specific things. And in their case, they had the identity of the user. We wouldn't have let them do anything except maybe just go to one website. >> Yeah you would have shut them down. They should have been doing business with Vidder. Jay thank you for coming on theCube here for theCubeConversation in Palo Alto, California. I'm Jon Furrier with theCubeConversation. Thanks for watching. (slow orchestral music)

>> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley. It's The Cube. Covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay welcome back everyone. We're here live in Palo Alto for The Cube's special broadcast presentation and coverage of Mobile World Congress. Which is happening in Barcelona, Spain. I'm John Furrier here with The Cube. And of course we're covering it here in Palo Alto. Bringing in experts and friends who have been following all the action. As well as have commentary and opinion on what's happening. We're going to roll up the news. It's the end of the day in Barcelona. We're just getting our sea legs here for day two of 8AM to 6PM coverage inside The Cube. And of course we want to break down the content. Our next guest is Val Bercovici who is the CTO at Solify also a governing board member of the CNCA the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Which was CubeCom which is now part of the Linux Foundation. Which if you know The Cube you know we've been covering that like a blanket. All these shows, The Cube has been there. This is in the world of Dockercon et cetera et cetera. Val, a CTO, 19-year veteran at NetApp of course knows the stories business, knows the converge infrastructure, know the Cloud. Val great to see you thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me back on after all these years. >> Yeah I mean it's great to have you on. We see each other at some of the parties, at Georgianna's place in particular. Georgianna brings all the storage and Cloud together but you and I had conversations a few years ago about where Cloud was going. And you can almost kind of connect the dots. Not to pat ourselves on the back, but I think we were right that the cloud was what we thought it would be. And probably more. For me I think I underestimated certainly the Amazon impact. >> Me too. >> But you look at what's happening in Mobile World Congress. You have a bi-polar show. You have a device show. Rah-rah look at the fancy devices. And the other show you have a Telco show that's trying to figure out their future. And that's interesting because the Telco's power the big networks that everyone's using the devices for. So you have a consumer market. But the real conversation is 5G IoT. You have a collision course of enterprise issues, enterprise data center, enterprise technology, colliding with a Telco infrastructure, AKA mobile. Head on. So it's not just more wireless. 5G's certainly the story we talked to folks like Intel and others around that but you have essentially all these core problems that are going to scale up this next generation use cases, are enterprise-like. This is your wheelhouse. So are you looking at this saying hm I've seen this movie before. What's your thoughts? >> I actually haven't. And that's what's so exciting right. As you said, there's so much innovation happening. For me probably the big story is what's not in the headlines at Mobile World Congress. Which is the back office work to support a 5G rollout. And I've had a lot of experience particularly on the side most recently. Speaking with all the big Telecos globally, and the implementations. Now what's interesting is they're all going through a gen two, or a re-architecture right now. A lot of first-generation MFE was done based on tradition or legacy now clad architecture which very VM based. And all of them are now architecting and implementing microservices based implementations. And a driver for that is just the explosion that 5G will enable in terms of connectivity between devices. So the least interesting stat to me is how fast I can download a movie off of 5G. The most interesting is how many hundreds of thousands or millions of devices within my domain are going to be communicating with each other on 5G. >> We had Saar Gillai who's going to come back today. He's also a guest, former HPer. He built their communications group while at NFE. I'd like it if he was commenting on the same thing, he made a point I want to bring up which is I don't really need more gigabit data, I want more battery life. So he's kind of being a pedestrian but that really is kind of the consumer issue. You're pointing about things that are going to be harder to do. In NFE you mention one of them. Can you explain the NFE's current situation? Also we've been doing a lot of the open stag all the open shows since it started. That has become kind of a Telco, NFE storage show as well. >> Val: Absolutely. >> So what is the real issue with NFE and why is it important and relevant to the service providers right now? >> So if you take a look at all the services we depend on on our phones nowadays. There's obviously the basic connectivity. There's additional services around location mapping for GPS, related services on top of that in terms of the collaborative apps that we use and depend on every day. Sometimes on S3 which is not always available as we're reporting right now. There's a lot of layers there. And from an NFV perspective from a back end data center perspective. Everything amounts to a session. So even though it's packet switch it's still a logical session you have to set up. So for every session, and imagine this happening millions of times at every tower, and more than millions of times at every regional or central data center. You got to have a session set up where you got to authenticate actually Who the user or the device is, make sure they have permission to be on the network and accessing certain things. You've got to authorize them to do certain things. You've got to log what's happening. Then you've got to slap some firewall or security around them. Then you've got to layer in access to all the other resources you're trying to combine into a service back to the end user. There's a lot of things going on. And we have to set up these sessions for every connection. And if you try to set up a VM, for every connection, you would have to fund a multi-billion dollar data center Google can't even afford. So this is where microservices are becoming essential right now. And a 5G hyper-connected world is where you have to have much more efficiency, in the speed with which you set up these sessions, the efficiency of number of sessions per server. And the cost, the processing of these transactions. >> This is interesting. I want to just kind of translate a little bit for the folks that aren't CTO's out there. Essentially when you think about mobile we've all been, you know, since the iPhone in 2007, we've seen this just accelerate. You know with data and whatnot. You've been at a concert, you've been in a stadium, you've got signal but you can't connect. >> Right. >> That is essentially the base station saying I can't get a session. Now as a user you have a phone, so you've been provisioned by the Telco, so they know who you are. So you have a phone, you have a device, you just can't connect a session to the radio connector and then get to the internet. That's a known problem. Now when you think about IoT, internet of things and now people, your watches, your wearables, sensors on the airplanes, industrial equipment to traffic lights. Those are devices that are going to be provisioned and turned off and on. So it's like a new phone every time. So you've got the complication of not knowing the devices that are coming on, and then trying to establish the connections. And figuring all this out. This is kind of a really hard problem. >> It is. >> This is a really really hard problem of scale at many levels. So to me what we're hearing at Mobile World Congress is you need a dynamic network. >> Val: Absolutely. >> What are some of the tech involved? What's the real enabler. You mentioned microservices, we know about containers. Linux Foundation's opening up their kernel for a lot of variety of new configurations. You got solid state memory and you got new memory architectures. What are some of the key things from a technical perspective that are going to change that complexity to be seamless for users? >> Probably the most fascinating trend to me and we're just beginning to see some stories emerge around this is the rise of edge computing. I kind of hark back to when I started my career, I'm dating myself now but the client server era that succeeded from mainframes, we've seen a huge pendulum shift towards Cloud computing. And centralizing a lot of processing. Well back to 5G, back to millions if not billions of connected devices right now. There is no way Einstein introduced his problem for the speed of light. There is no way to process the exponential amount of data we're dealing with right now at the core. And still provide useful feedback at the edge. So the rise of edge computing has a bit of a counterbalance to Cloud computing. And having more powerful, more intelligent processing at the edge, filtering a lot of data 'cause we can't possibly store the exit bytes and yadabytes of data. >> This is a paradigm shift. What you're talking about is a new paradigm shift. Because it used to be a centralized computer, and then a master slave or connected device terminal then you had smart terminals, business clients, and then PCs and then smart phones, so what you're bringing up is an interesting architecture that is an enterprise data center thing. And we were talking yesterday, and then I was telling the Intel folks, I pressed them on this 'cause they're obviously in the data center business, that a car that's fully instrumented like a Tesla or a future autonomous car is essentially a moving data center. So it changes the notion of data. >> Yes. >> This is a paradigm shift. You agree with that. >> Moreover. IoT is maybe the first technology buzzword that takes a lot of this digital world that we've been talking about. It's really been largely abstract and virtual for the common person. And it makes it physical and real. So the impact of IoT is an actuator changing your traffic light. You know, it's whether you're getting water, you're getting electricity at your house. Whether you're finding your way to your location via GPS. That's especially impacting your physical world it's no longer just a virtual thing. So that's where IoT's going to become really really significant in our lives. >> And the software program that needs to be created. This is an opportunity for entrepreneurs certainly. Peter Burris and I were talking yesterday morning about the edge computing. He's got a slew of research on this. He goes by IoT and p, IoT, things and people. And we were also talking yesterday about the relationship of the people to technology. So for instance in Telco's they view the phone as the relationship that's coupled to the carrier. And the premise we put out yesterday was that that's going to be an uncoupling. It's going to be a person's relationship to multiple carriers if you will. So the question is how does business extract value out of this? And this is something again that Peter Burris was digging into. Which is the business value of technology. In the paradigm we just talked about which seems pretty obvious, how we get there not so obvious, but people are working on that. How should companies think about getting value out of this massive shift? A lot of moving parts. >> The examples are already there. Let's talk about one of the most talked-about companies around here. Uber. And not because of the reasons they're attracting right now, but some of the classical disruption they enabled. Take a look at the fundamentals of what they do technically. It's interesting. It's somewhat impressive, but it's not revolutionary. What made them revolutionary is digitizing the transportation relationship you and I have with our transportation providers. And when they tapped into that they realized the potential for that is limitless right now. 'Cause we're all physical beings, we still have to move ourselves and our food, our packages around. But digitizing transportation is really you know a great example of any industry. Whether it's a 100-year-old industry or a brand new industry when you digitize the distribution, and when you actually add digital efficiencies in the back end, you end up with that 100 x effect, more than a 10 x effect. And truly earned the term disruptor. >> Give us more examples that you've seen. I know you talk a lot of Telco's but what other use cases. Because the whole notion of 5G and this new architecture is really coming down to use cases. And certainly the sexy ones. The car, the smart cities, I mean there's a lot of policy, societal impact issues that need to be thought through. But just generally, what's the low-hanging fruit right now? >> You know instead of low-hanging fruit let me give you the most pedestrian example I can think of. Which is when I meet with some of the waste management companies years ago I took them for granted. There was no innovation here. It's going to be an old enterprise discussion with some conservative tech leaders. I'm not even going to, I'm not trying to phone this is. I show up to meet with them, and they were truly innovating because they realized the whole customer experience of putting out your trash bin, your recycle bin, your organics bin, and so forth, your compost bin, can actually be improved. And the efficiencies added when you put GPS trackers on all the trucks. When you figure out when they have to go to the dump because there's an inordinately high amount of garbage put out early in the route one morning. And the ability for you to know when your bins are picked up. So you can actually go and pick up those bins. Put them out minutes before instead of the night before. Bring them back minutes after. Just reinventing that very pedestrian mundane experience tells me that there are opportunities for innovation everywhere in our lives. >> So really pick a spot to make efficient. Is probably easiest. Great, great feedback. Thoughts on developers. 'Cause it's something that we didn't, and we'd love to bring you back for more time on this but the CNC the Cloud Native Compute Foundation which is now part of the Linux Foundation, you mentioned microservices, orchestrations, there's a lot of software around composability, whether that's an artisan light developer, or the hardcore developers down lower on the stack. How does autonomous vehicles and this new future use case whether it's programming drones or writing cool software, to what's going on in the developer community? Can you share any color on trends around what's being done in traditional classic developing? >> Autonomous vehicles is already a perfect example because CNCF fundamentally is about what we call Cloud native technologies and applications. In a typical Cloud native architecture is container packaged not VM packaged. And it's dynamically orchestrated. So we say it's basically declarative as opposed to opinionated to use back end speak technical developer speak. But what does that mean? Autonomous cars are not interesting if one car is autonomous. Autonomous cars are interesting when dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of cars along your route those are autonomous. The interaction between them, and making sure they don't all try to occupy the same space at the same time. That's pretty essential. But also keeping traffic flowing smoothly and preventing unnecessary traffic jams. So it's the coordination of multiple processes, multiple things. That's what really make Cloud native computing happen at scale. So CNCF actually is five projects right now. Most people know it as the Kubernetes project and it is very much that. I think a year ago no one knew how hot Kubernetes would be but certainly it's taken off right now. Thanks a lot in part to Google. We've got new technologies around monitoring. So you've got a monitor your app obviously in the Cloud world to see what are the efficiencies performances for the end user. Around logging, distributed logging and monitoring. We've got new projects around actually debugging at scale. So debugging one process is simple as any developer knows. Debugging multiple concurrent threads or processes, that's still a black art. And so we've got open tracing technologies around that, and there's a new style of project, something known as link or d. But it's around now and the IoT context the most important thing to me discovery of context. What other devices, what other sensors are out there. >> It sounds like an operating system to me. You got linkers, you got loaders, you got all this orchestration. This is a global operating environment. >> It's a great insight. It's not an operating system. >> Not in like a classic sense. But there's some systems... >> It is a new operating environment. In the Cloud native world, operating system still connotates one PC, one device or one host on a data center. It really is a coordination of services. New modern high-end services. >> And declarative thing with containers is essentially assembly based, you can manage things component-wise, those kinds of concepts. And you see that as a key part of enabling these new use cases. >> There's actually no economies of scale if you don't go Cloud native nowadays. As 5G networks become more prevalent, as IoT becomes more mainstream, it doesn't play without microservice. >> And the trade-offs for not being Cloud native is what? >> Being disrupted. It's literally you know there's some great recent blogs. You've heard this title before, the coming SaaSpocalypse. So the disruption of the legacy SaaS vendors. The economics of them force you to basically have fixed subscription models with your customers. And whether you're using you know your CRM map once a day or 100 times a day. It costs you the same. These new Cloud native architectures are going to enable disruption in an industry because they only consume resources as a sessions for an app and the licensing and business model can now be that much more efficient. People are actually willing to be charged per use as opposed to per subscription. >> Now you know, I've gotten to know you over the years, and a great guest to have on The Cube. Thanks for sharing that insight. But it is an exciting time. You had a great run at NetApp. I mean you look at what NetApp's been doing, I mean they were the darling of Silicon Valley. Classic success story. Multiple reinventions, great founding team, great investors, just a classic run that they've had. As you look back now going forward, looking back and now looking forward, what are some of the things that get you jazzed up right now in terms of things that are that next wave that's coming. What do you see that's exciting and what would you share for folks for insight? >> I'd say the most exciting thing to me at a high level is the opportunity that 5G IoT enables. I think there's a whole new market segment. Some people might call it the real evolution of HCI. Which is edge computing, and all these really fast workloads. That are not going to be necessarily virtual desktops in terms of running or operating your business. But entirely new revenue streams, entirely new services, and all sorts of companies, digital or analog can offer. That excites me. And of course we've talked about the back end of the shift towards away from fast storage. Fast storage toward persistent memory. That in itself is going to open up a whole new category of apps that we've yet to see. >> Yeah we got to get that Linux rewritten and opened up. All kinds of new stuff. Great great commentary Val. Thanks for coming on The Cube to share. We certainly want to have you back. And really unpack and drill down and double down on what Cloud native impact means, and certainly edge and IoT computing. Really is going to be a fascinating run I think. I think that's going to open up a huge can of worms and an opportunity for really changing the game and creating great value and risk too. I mean Amazon S3's down as we speak. We're joking but you know we see insecurity problems out there and we'll stay on top of it. Of course The Cube has got you covered. And that's the hot themes really that's not being reported about Mobile World Congress that we're reporting. Which is the surge in IoT relevance. But that gives a mental model. This is the story of Mobile World Congress. 5G as a fabric connecting in with hard enterprise data center-like technologies. End to end for dynamic experiences. This is the challenge for Telcos. And someone will get it done. Let's see who it will be. Of course we'll be watching it. This is The Cube with more coverage of Mobile World Congress after this short break.

>> [Voiceover] Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Palo Alto, California inside theCube's new studios, 4500 square feet in Palo Alto, just opened up last month and excited to be here. Breaking down Mobile World Congress all day, from 8 a.m. to 6, today and tomorrow. As their day ends, we're going to pick up the coverage, do the analysis, get some commentary and reaction to all the news and also the big trends and my next guest here in the studio is Saar Gillai, friend of the Cube, Cube alumni, and former HPE Senior Vice President GM of the teleco business. Ran the cloud, then a variety of things with Meg Whitman at HPE, now he's independent board member and in between gigs on the beach, clipping coupons as we say, Saar, great to see you, looking good. >> Great to be here, nice studio. >> I'm excited that you could come in, this is exactly why we're having our show here in this new studio because a lot of folks that don't take the big trek to Barcelona who don't have to can come in and talk to us and you've been a veteran of Mobile World Congress for many years. Again, you ran, and actually built the cloud biz and also built the, I won't say NFV biz, but essentially the teleco communications division for HPE so you know a lot about what's happening in the industry and more importantly Mobile World Congress. This is the year that all the accelerant is coming to the table, all the rocket fuel is being poured out on to the bonfire, the matches are going to be lit, it's called 5G, it's called IOT, internet of things, internet of people, the devices look good, they all want to be Apple, they all want to be over the top, running entertainment, smart cities, cars, 5G is the holy grail, we're done. But seriously, where is the meat on the bone on this thing? Is it real, is this transformation hype or reality at Mobile World Congress? >> Yes. (laughing) >> Yes, hype or yes, it's real? >> There's a lot of hype, but there's some reality. I mean I think first of all, 5G is the latest thing, it used to be LTE, now it's 5G. What does 5G actually mean? Really, for people, what 5G means is you should have a lot more capacity, right? So 5G talks about even up to one gigabit in certain cases, lower latency and so forth. Now the thing about wireless is you know, there's no secrets in wireless, okay? It's not like... >> It's a physics game. >> ...Yeah, it's physics, it's not like ethernet, where you can go from one meg to 10 meg then all you have to do is run more line and you're good. If that was so easy in wireless right now, we'd all be getting one gigabyte right, but we're not. So the only way you increase capacity in wireless is through smaller cells, and there are some mimo technologies and so forth. You know, 5G talks abouts technologies that will enable you to do that, but it's much more of an evolution than revolution and people need to understand that. There's no fundamental shift, what they're talking about in 5G is adding a lot more bandwidth. Today, most of the frequencies being used are sub five gigahertz, those are great frequencies to go through walls, they're not that great in terms of capacity and there's not that much of them. Like AT&T might have 60 megahertz, that's the entire capacity they have in the U.S. And that's not much. And so they're talking about using millimeter waves, other things like 27 gig, 28 gig, 60 gig. Now, those do have a lot more capacity, they have other problems, they don't go through walls. So, I think instead of thinking about 5G, we need to think about, okay, what problems are we trying to solve? Like, what problems is this going to solve? I think in some sense, it's... ...while everyone wants more broadband, some of it is a solution looking for a problem. >> [John] Yeah, it's a field of dreams too dynamic, build it, they will come. That has been a network operator concept, right? And then we know the operators, and you and I have talked about this on theCube many years, the operators are having business model challenges, problems, challenges, there are opportunities, but at the same time there is a bigger picture I want to get your thoughts on. So in a vacuum, there's limitations, there's physics, but now, you're looking at a connected network, and this is the end to end concept, so under the covers of wireless, assuming wireless has its topology, architectural things you could do, smaller cells, different frequencies, how it's going through walls is preferred, longer distance, longer latency through walls, that's the ideal scenario. But I think there's a bigger picture around the different types of wireless networks, but there's cars, there's mobility, actual true mobility, 60 miles an hour in a car versus walking down the street or sitting in a stadium or at home. These are use cases. How much of it is a wireless problem versus another problem? NFV, end to end, virtualization, help us parse that through, how should we think about this? >> There's two issues, there's a wireless problem, we can talk about the different segments that make sense and don't make sense or how much they have to evolve to make sense. And then fundamentally, the networks are very... ...they're not that agile as we know. Which is why NFV really, if you remove NFV, and you just... ...NFV's about creating agility, and yes their doing for virtualization and yada yada, but it's about creating agility, creating automation, right? You can't have these... ...a lot of these networks were designed years ago even 3GPP, this is a decade old. And so yes, there's a lot of work that has to be done and creating much more agility in a network because the network isn't built for that. Just if you think about even simple things like number of subscribers that can go on and off, right? Okay, if you have a cell phone. Like today, if you look in the world there might be 80 billion subscribers, lets say. If you look at the number of cell phones and so forth. But once you start IOT, you might have 100 billion because every device will be a network. That's a different management system, right? Also, those devices may go on and off every day, right? Because you buy a new device, you plug it in the wall. Okay, phones, you don't start a new phone every day, right? People buy a phone to use it, so, the network becomes much more dynamic, the back end has to be more dynamic, that has a side effect and so there's a lot of work that has to be done on the backend to make it more dynamic. That's the backend problem and then, you know, they are working on it. >> [John] And the bright spots there are what? What are the bright spots happening today, this week at Mobile World Congress and the trends around the backend? >> Well, you know, I mean Mobile World Congress is a show, right? And these are not sexy things, so we probably won't hear a lot about them, but you hear about orchestration, automation, network virtualization, basically moving all this through the cloud paradigm, where you have a lot more flexibility. I mean if you think about what's happening NFV these days for example, you don't hear a lot about it, but what is happening a lot is onboarding work. Okay, we've talked a lot about it, from that hype, now we're into build-out, right? So you hear less about it, but stuff is actually happening. >> [John] So it's operational. >> [Saar] It's operational stuff. >> Yeah >> [Saar] They're modifying the system so that they can be ready to work when you get to that point. On the radio side, I think the important thing to understand is like you said exactly, there's multiple use cases for 5G. The most interesting and immediate one, potentially is to use wireless to compete against cable. Which is fixed wireless access. You know, there, the telecos for years have wanted to do it, there was this whole discussion about fiber, then it turned out fiber's expensive. >> [John] Yeah, you've got to trench it, you've got to provision it to your home, you've got to roll a truck. >> Took Google a few years to figure that out, but even for Google, it's expensive. >> [John] People who have done that said you're crazy, but Google's has had so many deep pockets and Facebook does the same thing with their kind of R&D projects. >> They figured it out, there are technologies, millimeter wave is a bit hard because it doesn't go through walls, but I think when we talk about capacities, it's not for your mobile phone, it's for other things, it's mostly for fixed wireless access. There's a whole discussion about cars, I personally, because we're talking about opinions here, I don't understand the problem so much because the reality is the car's going to be a mobile data center. So 90 percent of the data that's generated by the car will be kept in the car and the car will be sending analytics and metrics up so it doesn't need gigabits. It's not like every time you turn you need to get it an instruction. Maybe that's what the network guys want you to believe because then you need like zero latency. But you don't need that, it's much easier to invest in a better system in the car. So the car's not going to figure out... >> [John] The car is a computer, it's not a peripheral. >> Yeah, it's a peripheral. >> [John] It's a data center to your point. >> [Saar] It's a full data center. It's the edge that computes, so I don't think that's an issue, I think the car will need coverage and so forth. >> But that's a different thing, cars are great examples so let's take on this one. 'Cause this is a perfect mental model. A car is going to have all this capacity like a big computer >> [Saar] It's a data center. >> [John] Or a data center. >> [Saar] A mini data center. >> A lot of things, a lot of instrumentation, a lot of software, glue. >> [Saar] It's going to have 10 computers, big systems, it's like a little data center. >> But it also moves fast, so it's a true mobile data center. So it needs mobility. So mobility has trade-offs, right, with the wireless piece at least. Depends on how you're uploading. >> Again, it depends on the capacity. Mobility has certain elements when you get into Doppler Effect and so on. It's always a capacity trade off. All of you have talked on your cell phone or used data on your cell phone in your plane, we know this. When the plane's landing, that's 150 miles an hour when the plane lands, okay, and it works pretty well. >> We all cheat, don't turn on your cell phones, we're landing. >> [Saar] Yeah, exactly. >> We've all done it. >> So again, if you want to run a gigabit, it's a problem, if you want to run less it's not such a big deal if a car's going 60 miles an hour. So it depends. Now if you define the use cases, I need a gigabit for every car, there's a million cars, that's a problem. If you define the use case, as something else it's not a big problem. There is a problem though, and I think that is something that the 5G is trying to address in terms of more on the backend of density. >> Density in terms of signal, or density in terms of... >> In terms of support, so for example, the one place you can never use a cell phone is in a conference, because too many people are trying to get on at the same time. It's a statistical model. >> [John] A-station issues. >> It breaks, and so with a car also, you're going to have high density because if you have a traffic jam, all these cars are talking or receiving, so that's a bigger issue. And 5G does talk about that as well, but that's a bigger issue than pure capacity. Pure capacity, great, I'll give you this much megahertz... >> [John] I agree with that. >> You can do that on WiFi today. >> [John] I totally agree with that. So let's take a step back I want to get a little color on Mobile World Congress. Talk about what's going on right now. So it's dinner, people at parties, what goes on? People want to always ask me, John what always happens? First of all, Barcelona is a great city as you know, we've been there together for some HP events, as well as for Mobile World Congress. What's happening, you always make the comment it's a Biz Dev show which means it's business development going on. All the top executives go there, deals are being cut, but it's also a large trade show as you will for mobility. >> I think like you said, from my experience, the biggest value of Mobile World Congress is not the show itself, with all due respect to the show, it's the fact that everybody and anybody who is somebody is there, that's why we're not there. So you can meet people. And so if you want to meet a bunch of people, teleco leaders and so forth, that's what you do. This is the place. You all say, okay, we'll meet at Mobile World Congress. So like for example, when I was down there I would basically go back to back from in the morning until 10 at night, in meetings, dinners, whatever with CEOs of various telecos or CEOs of partners and so on. Everybody's there, and I never actually got to see the show because I never got out of a meeting. And most of what happens there is that. That's amazing because again, everybody's there. >> [John] There's a huge ecosystem involved. Talk about that ecosystem because this is the dynamic. And first of all, we don't have to go there because we've got theCube here so we're there virtually, digitally, and that's what we do now. This is great, in the studio, we save ourselves the three day flight to go to Barcelona. It is crazy there, but it is about the community there, because you have that opportunity to get the feedback, do deals. >> [Saar] A lot of deals around there. >> [John] A lot of deals happening, also feedback, trying to connect the dots and having the right product strategies. What are some of the things that you think is happening right now from a business standpoint in these meetings, right now? Are people still scratching their heads on over the top, is it the classic problems, what's the current state of the union? >> Well, you saw Vimpel Com change their name to some other thing, so I think what you're seeing right now, is there's still sort of multiple dynamics going on. One dynamic is there's people maneuvering around how 5G ends up closing and there was some discussions about that, there was some release done about hey we should speed it up and then Enrique said no this is silly. So there are some discussions, there is some maneuvering going on like any time when you're doing a spec, when does it freeze, when does it not freeze? Some of the telecos want this, and so forth. That's sort of in the background going on. They're still trying to figure out, you know, business model is still an issue. The people are experimenting and you're going to see a lot of that, experimenting with apps, experimenting with these monetization strategies. So there's a lot of that going on, trying to figure out, okay, how do we monetize the network in a better fashion? >> What do you think the best path is from your perspective? Just putting your industry hat on, if you had to kind of lay down some epic commentary to the teleco bosses, hey you got to cannibalize your own, get out in front, what would you advise them in terms of what to get out in front of, what to double down on? >> I think some of them are actually doing this, but I think first of all, I think they should forget about worrying about the technology. I mean, technology is very important, we need to take care of that, but really, they need to know what are they good at? What are they strong at? So their strong at a customer relationship, they have customers that they quote unquote have as partners, those customers, and they're very strong so what can you do with that partnership as opposed to all kinds of other random stuff. Now, if you look at what they're doing, they're doing different things. Some of them are like buying different media companies, so there's no easy path, but they're going to have to use their strength as opposed to try to become somebody they're not. They're not going to become Google, they're not going to become Amazon, they're not going to become one of those guys. They do need to become more cloudified just to be efficient, but that's because that's sort of the... ...just to play, you have to pay that card, but they're not going to be better than the existing, but they do have a very strong relationship with customers, they could probably sell them more things if they focus on good customer service. Customers are happy to work with them if they get a good deal and a frictionless environment. So, I would certainly encourage all of them, and I know many of them are focused on this, to improve your frictionless interaction for the customer. If the customer has a frictionless interaction and gets a good deal, they'll do business with them. >> Are you worried about the teleco's customer relationship when they have this decoupling trend kind of happening where the consumers want to take their phone or device and uncouple it from the network and just add more mobility across networks. So if there's better connectivity, I could be able to hop between Verizon, AT&T, whoever, that seems to be something that a lot of folks technically are saying from an architectural standpoint, having that personal centric view versus a network centric tie-in. Is that on the radar at all? Or is that still kind of in a way, fantasy? >> It's like people are still using AOL, right? >> [John] Who? Who? (laughing) >> They voted for Trump then, huh? >> I'm not going there right now, we can discuss that later. The point is, the primary area where there's problems in that area is roaming. And there's a lot of discussion about roaming. 55 or 60 percent of people turn off data when they go overseas because the roaming fares are so incredibly expensive which makes no sense. Why would I have a longer cost because I happen to have an AT&T contract in Europe, I'm not using more data than somebody in Europe and it's going through the backend of the internet anyways. So I think there... >> [John] It's a great way to jack the user with more fees. >> But that's not sustainable. >> Of course. >> I think there, you're going to see pressure of people and there's some companies who provide apps, and cards and sim cards, but there's now soft ways of doing it, there you're going to see pressure and I think eventually that will go the way of the messaging, where... >> [John] Like WhatsApp >> Yeah, they'll come up with something that will allow you to have data at a much cheaper rate, I don't know, does it make sense to switch carriers in the local market if you have a good price? I mean, what's the point? So again it all comes back to, do they give you a frictionless service? If they give you a frictionless service that is at reasonable cost, then you'll use it. So you've got to look at places... ...where their going to have people leave them is where they don't do that. And there are places they don't do that, roaming is one of those places. >> [John] So I've got to ask you about IOT, obviously it's the hottest trend, AI's more of the mental model that people get their arms around, they see virtual reality, augmented reality, they call that AI, it's more of a mental model, it's really not AI, but IOT is really where the action is. People see networks, where devices as you mention are coming on and off, you just don't provision those as static devices. They're very dynamic. Your take on the IOT market, what's your view on that? Because a lot of action happening there. >> I've been involved in IOT and different people have different names for what T means, I won't go there here. >> [John] T and P, things and people. Let it be watch... >> [Saar] Well T could mean things, it could mean other things too, but the point is, IOT ...I was working in a company that was doing IOT when we called machine to machine, if we had called it IOT, it would have been better. The point is IOT is, this is extremely fragmented, it's a super super fragmented market. And it has different ecosystems. The more complex part of IOT is not the front end, it's the backend of how do you manage devices how do you tie them to some app, how do you configure them, provision them? >> [John] 'Cause of the backend, infrastructures are different. Some are IT based... >> Think about it, you've got all these devices how do you upgrade them? How do you make sure they don't start a denial of service attack on their own? How do you provision them, how do you manage their life cycle? HPE has some product in that area, a global connectivity platform, but other people as well. So, this is a bigger problem. The backend is a much bigger problem than the front end. What's the problem? Hypothetically, I can stick a SIM card into anything and it's now a device. Most of these things do not have a high bandwidth. Low bandwidth coverage is pretty good in urban centers, not if you go to Utah, but other places. So, the biggest problem is backend. Now obviously there's a lot of advancements that can be done on the front end too, because of power issues. The biggest problem with IOT is depending what you want, you have a power issue. For example, we used to do this back in the day, you built these little devices, you stick them on containers, and then you can find out where the container is at any given moment. That's great, but how long does this thing last? I think IOT is a very big thing that's happening, I think most of the problem in IOT is not in the front end, it's in the back. >> [John] Yeah, I would agree with that. Also it allows you to get more data too. Another problem is storing up more data which is security, data, IT management, basic stuff. >> [Saar] Very basic stuff, and that stuff is hard to fix because again usually IOT is not a green field that are going to connect to something that exists. You're just augmenting it with IOT like if it's a power meter or something so now you have this existing ecosystem that has to interact with something that is brand new and so there are various companies who build interfaces and how to solve it, there's management issues. But I think IOT is real. >> [John] So let's talk about cloud. So cloud you also had your hand in at HP as well, you had a wireless background, the folks might not know that, going back before then. The cloud really is an opportunity, we see that with Amazon and then Microsoft's now got their stock up and so obviously cloud, it's a bigger game, it's hybrid, it's happening and then you have all these other fringe things developing around the mobility piece. How is the cloud changing the Mobile World Congress game? Because now it's a show that kind of blends. It feels like CES on one hand, it feels like Cloud World on another. It feels like IOT and teleco world, and all these things are kind of in a melting pot. >> Well I think to me, when I look at Mobile World Congress, I think of okay, it's teleco world, really because whatever the telecos happen to be doing is what the show is about, right? If you think about the telecos, we're talking about companies that have a capital like I think AT&T spends like 20 billion dollars a year or something in that range. We're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars of capital budget and whatever those folks are interested in is what shows up in that show. >> [John] So it's still a Teleco show dominant, you don't see that changing at all? >> No, but what teleco is, is changing, right? I mean they have broadcast, so what I'm saying is whatever the telecos are interested in is what shows up in that show. Drones, cars, telecos have their hands in all these things. And that's why it shows up in the show. Because ultimately the show is about the telecom space and the primary players. If you go down there, the booths that are as big as a country club, you know the Ericssons and so forth, it's a teleco show and people who want to be relevant like Intel as they want to be more relevant in wireless is building a bigger and bigger booth over there. But what teleco is really is about connecting things and as there's more things to connect, telecos get involved in other things. If they see a business opportunity, for example drones, lets go back to talk about that because there's a whole drone day and all this other stuff there. I mean drones need higher... ...I don't think they need so much bandwidth although it depends what kind of video you want to do. But they do need reliable connectivity. It's something useful, right? And today, you could argue connectivity it's not super reliable, it's pretty reliable, but we all have dropped calls every five minutes, right? I mean if a drone drops a call, that may not be that easy. There's use cases around these things >> [John] And back to your earlier point, I think this is the most important for the folks to listen to and hone in on is that there's a use case in every corner depending on the view of the market. Drones is one. Take virtual reality, augmented reality, that's another. IT, enterprises connecting, entertainment over the top, smart cities, these are all kind of nuanced areas. >> But when people want to understand, separate the hype from the non-hype, see if you can understand the use case. If you can't understand the use case or if the use case seems out there, then the technology is probably out there. Technology on it's own is fascinating, but if there's no use case that makes sense right here right now like again, for example, if I got a gigabit to my phone right now, would it make a difference in my life? An extra 20 hours of battery life would make a difference in my life more than a gigabit. >> That's a good point, right now battery life is more important than connectivity, but as the network transformation which is a big buzz word for this show is coming to the surface, that's an end to end architecture with software. So we think about traversing cloud, software, delivering of apps and services that's different. Now the apps have more headroom in that case, but then to your point, the backend's got to be... ...under the hood has to be smarter. Or is network transformation not yet there? >> Well I think what's happened is that the OTT, the OTTs started developing 20 years later, and surprise surprise, when you develop 20 years later, you have advantages, doesn't matter who you are, so their backend is a much further generation than the teleco's backend and so that's why when you connect to OTT services, it's consumer experience, it feels seamless and so forth, when you connect to the telecos backend, it's sort of a mismatch. And so they need to sort of fix that and that's part of the NFV transformation they're working on and again it's not because they had any limitations its because they had existing stuff, it's much easier to build from scratch. >> Final comment on Mobile World Congress this year, and outlook for the next year, your thoughts? >> We need to parse out what actually comes out of there. It's still early, I think 5G, 5Gs going to be what people are going to talk about, this is the thing. It means multiple things, but that's because the entire teleco world, if you think about it, if you look at the revenue of the suppliers and so forth who have been in a holding pattern ever since 4G sort of, in China, they finished 4G deployment and so the next big capital spending is going to be 5G, and so you're going to see the providers push anything to get that going. That's just the bottom line. >> Great. Saar Gallai, final comment, what are you working on now? Obviously we got to know you at a personal level with HPE, I've seen your roles, and the last one was really handling that teleco business which you grew up from a handful of people to hundreds of people, thousands of people. You're a land grabber, kingdom builder, empire builder. What are you up to now, what are you looking at for opportunity? I know you're doing some investing, you have some independent boards, what's your world like now here in Silicon Valley, what's your activities look like, and what's your thoughts on the valley in general and entrepreneurship and your activities? >> First of all, what I'm doing, the good news is I'm sitting here in Silicon Valley and so I'm very busy doing various interactions with bbcs, with startups, consulting, looking at different businesses, there's so much interesting things going on. Every morning you can look at new things that people bring over. Whether they're teleco related or not teleco related. Just some amazing things going on. Something from new wireless protocols to cloudification and so on, and I also sit on a few boards so I'm spending a lot of time doing that, looking at different things. >> [John] What's exciting for you right now? What's getting you jazzed up? >> There's so many different things, like I said, I think... >> [John] What's the coolest thing? >> The coolest things, some of the most cool things are.. >> [John] Confidential? >> Yeah, stealthy, I would say. I'm looking at some wireless stuff that's pretty revolutionary that I think could be new protocols that sort of change the whole dynamic of how wireless works, that's pretty interesting. And then I'm looking at some other things that are just how you apply cloud to different problems in the world. If you look at the cloud paradigm, it's existed for a fair amount of time now, but although we talk about it all day, most of the things in the world, most of the apps, most of the problem sets are not leveraging any in the cloud. They're still at best using >> [John] Recycled IT. >> Recycled IT, or sometimes even Windows 98 for all you know, right? In Africa, Africa went to wireless directly, they never did wired. So there may be a lot of industries that never go from Windows to proper data centers. They just go straight from basic Windows directly to the cloud. There's lots of opportunities that are interesting there. I'm looking at a few CEO options. But it's very exciting, there's so much going on. There's just so many things happening. >> [John] Well let's get into that tomorrow, you're going to come by tomorrow at 4:30, folks watching tomorrow at 4:30 Pacific Time, Saar will be back in the studio, we're going to dig in to the entrepreneurial landscapes, I think one of the things that you highlighted that we were talking about earlier is that sometimes you have technology looking for a problem, and the reality is that most of the game changing opportunities come out of left field that no one sees, these are the revolutionary game changers, the new technology, the hard stuff, not just some app that gets built, it's the real hardcore tech that could be applied to some of these real problems. And I think that's going to be the key. Saar Gallai here inside the studio, breaking down Mobile World Congress with theCube here in Palo Alto covering what's happening in Barcelona. We got some still phone-ins, late night in Barcelona, we're going to make those shortly, be right back with more coverage after this short break. (soft music)