>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE live in San Francisco for coverage of Google Cloud Next 18, #GoogleCloudNext18 I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Your next guest, Anthony Lye, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Cloud Data Services Business Unit at NetApp. Yes, Business Unit at NetApp, storage in the cloud. Anthony, welcome to theCUBE, Good to see you. >> Thank you very much. nice to see you guys again. >> Great to have you on, we have been, first of all, very complimentary of NetApp over the years. We've had some critical analysis, but one thing I will say that you guys were early on cloud. I remember talking to Tom Georgans years ago, >> Yup. >> You listened to the customers, and you saw cloud, and there was some work going on. Now, you're here at Google Cloud, you're in Amazon, kind of not conventional wisdom for a storage company selling boxes to be living in a cloud where there's serverless, and, some would argue, storageless soon. >> Well, you know-- >> How did this happen? How did this business unit happen? (mumbled speech) >> Well, I think George Kurian, our CEO, probably now about five years ago, I think saw that cloud computing had just too much, I think, going for it not for us to pay attention to it. And he took the top ten engineers at NetApp, and said, you know our flagship operating system ONTAP that runs on our engineered systems, he said, port it to Amazon. And so we spent time porting the operating system over directly to Amazon and today, now, it's a real business. Fully funded, staffed, growing, and you know to your point, you know, who'd have thought NetApp would be calling the cloud. Google chose us. >> Big announcement today, in the keynote-- >> Yup. >> Right >> Oh yeah. >> I mean it's-- >> Key partner >> Turns out that enterprises need enterprise level files, whether that's NFS or SMB, and we're the best in the business to do it. >> So talk about that a little more, because a lot of people get confused, and they say, well wait a minute, why do I need NetApp on Google Cloud or AWS? Why don't I just use whatever object store the cloud provider gives me? Explain that. >> So I think there's a number of use cases, certainly if you look at legacy, there's a lot of applications, databases, that need and demand file. And customers would rather not have to do all the work to translate them over to something like object. Now, you know, object is a very descriptive storage protocol, but it's not as fast as file. So, there are distinct advantages to file that I think the cloud companies have realized they need, to win the enterprise business, whether it's the lift-and-shift business, there's a lot of applications. If you look at oil and gas, all that seismic data is in a file in a volume. You look at CAD-CAM, all of those applications demand file. Oracle database runs incredibly fast on file, so file is certainly not to be discounted, and I think it's very much now a hot topic in public cloud. >> And there's more to this story than just running in the public cloud. THere's a whole business model around the economics, >> Yup. >> the pricings, can you explain that? >> The way we think about cloud is we think that we can build a business that's just in the cloud. We basically monetize a service, a set of services that we offer to our customers to help them manage their data, protect their data, secure their data, integrate and orchestrate their data. Whether it's on one cloud or many. Whether it's a combination of onprem and cloud. And we charge very, very simply based on capacity or API call. We provide a full service. And that's what I think the cloud has done is democratized and empowered many, many people to consume technology that, prior to these big public clouds, you'd have to go to IT and wait six months and get charged a lot of money. The clouds make everything instantly available. It's wonderful. >> You guys have a great history, and again we've been, not critical but complementary of NetApp. You listen to customers, got a very loyal customer base. No matter what the trend is against you, by the pundits, you guys persevere as a company. And it's been great to watch, classic Silicon Valley success story. But you got Solify, you got Flash, you've been doing some kicking the tires early in cloud, now you created a business unit out of it. As you listen to customers, you see DevOps, you see (mumble) Infrastructures go, massive amounts of new proliferation, there's going to be a renaissance in software development, it's coming very fast. You almost see it coming very, very fast. What are the use cases for NetApp in the cloud, what are some of the things that customers are talking to you about, what are the top use cases, and where do you think they're going to be? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so people have been very ... in Google we've been in preview phase onboarding customers to test the system out, sort of flush water through the pipes. And we've been very lucky at Google, we've had really every use case that we wanted to test tested. At the low end, it can be as simple as just home directories shared across ... whether it's POSIX or Windows, people need access to those file systems and NetApp is the only company that offers that sort of dual protocol access. So we have home directories at the low end, all the way up to genome sequencing databases, big data, relational databases, data warehouses at the high end. And what's nice about our service is we have service level objectives. So we, for the first time, have actually put a performance guarantee on the volumes. And what's nice about that is the customer knows that that's something that we stand to. What's really nice is the customer can dial up or dial down, either the capacity that they want or the performance that they want. So they may say, Monday through Friday we want to run the volumes at this basic service level, and then over the weekend, through an API, we're going to crank them up and make them run at 128 MB/sec. So, we really are, I think, providing incredible value for all workload types. >> You just described what I consider chew software, defined strategy, programmable through an API, I mean that's something that is nuanced but dramatically simplified-- >> Oh, you know, I'm an application developer. >> I was going to say. >> And I can tell you the last thing application developers want to do is talk to IT. Second to last thing application developers want to do is mess around with UI's. So, you know, the cloud, where there are lots of pretty demos of Google Console, which is a very, very, I think, well written user interface. What we really want is the API. We want the code or application code to tell the cloud what to do and how to do it. And so, everything behind our cloud business is API first. >> The programmable aspect is critical. >> Yup. >> And this is where we're starting to see microservices >> Absolutely. >> Become interesting phenomenon. Because now you can have pure application developers, >> Yup. >> Never talking to anyone but other developers in collaboration space. They just collaborate, and they go play in open source communities, and they're-- >> Absolutely. >> Happy as a clam. >> We've now got NFS persisting in containers, so we've done ... we worked on a project called Trident. Which is an open source project and we contribute to that. On Google, you'll be able to mount file systems directly into containers. And persist storage now, with all the cool, new (mumble) things that Google brings. So, you know, the files are a very integral part, I think, of technology and strategy. And we seem to have, according to Google, the best one. What are the go-to-market aspects of your relationship with Google? Well that's the other thing I tell you I'm incredibly pleased with is Google sells our product. Google supports our product. Google bills the customers for our product. >> That's good. >> Google has kind of chosen us, and Google wants it to be part of Google. So, the experience is completely native to the console. We encapsulate all of the permissions, access control lists, it looks and feels exactly like any native Google service. >> And what's next now, obviously great relation with Google. You're almost embedded/operationalized with them. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> What's next, what's going on, what's the agenda for you guys? >> For us it's really increased investment in two dimensions. I think the first dimension is now the roll-out. We've got a very aggressive schedule to roll this out to all the major Google data centers to support all their major regions. And that's probably a never ending task, cause Google ups its ante and increases its data centers, so that keeps us busy, making the service available. The second thing then is sort of integrating that service with more of our own services. And integrating our service into some of the other Google services like BigQuery, or Spanner, or obviously there's a huge opportunity for people to bring file based data into Google Cloud and take advantage of AI and ML. (overlapping voices) >> That's interesting, integration into Spanner, I mean you've pointed out, Anthony, that Oracle runs really well on file. You guys, decade ago or so, made that happen. We had a conversation yesterday with a customer that basically moved from Oracle to Spanner. So that level of integration is one to really watch, from a transaction/database in the cloud standpoint. >> Our mission is to make file a first class protocol. >> It was interesting, also, about this, and George Kurian was talking about this on the scene, I haven't yet interviewed him yet, I'll do that next time on theCUBE, but I've heard him speak publicly, I've seen comments, software is critical. You're a software company, >> Yeah, exactly. >> you happen to have hardware here and there. So this is actually ... >> We don't make the hardware, you know. >> You don't bend the metal. >> Right. >> Google loves software. >> Yeah. >> So, interesting, so you have a lot of range, potentially, looking out in the future. >> I tell you, you know, George asked me to come to NetApp, and he gave me a blank canvass, and told me to paint whatever picture I wanted. And so, as an application developer, I wanted to have a rich set of services to help me manage my data, and I wanted to be able to do it in the cloud. >> And you want to do it without storage. >> Yeah, I mean at the end of the day ... >> You're a developer, you just want it to be there working. >> Exactly right. You expect it to be like dial tone. When you pick up the phone, at home, you don't ask yourself, how does it work? >> Nor do you want to ask the operator to connect it for you. >> Exactly right. >> And that's what's been unique, I've been following NetApp since they took on Auspex. Early on, we realized that this is a company who, basically, has storage services, and makes calls to those storage services as required, like a software developer would. >> Exactly. >> Not things that are locked into some piece of hardware. >> No, I tell you, I think what the other thing that I'm particularly proud of is I think that all of those loyal customers who have built their careers on NetApp and ONTAP, we've now given them the next part of their journey. >> Yeah. >> We've now made all of their skills relevant for Google. >> That's another 20 year lease. >> Well, the other thing ... >> It's a beautiful thing. >> The other thing you've done is, by integrating with the cloud, you bring scale that has always been a challenge for clustered systems that the cloud resolves. It was a barrier to the adoption of the cluster concept. >> I tell you the other thing that customers say more than anything else is, you know, NetApp really provides probably the industry's best insurance. I mean, any customer that makes an onpremise decision, of which there are still many, are choosing NetApp onpremise because NetApp is in the cloud. >> That's interesting, because you see Oracle's marketing with same/same but Oracle's storage products are deficient. So (laughs) >> Well, when are we start to see storage functions and terms like storageless? We have serverless. I mean ... (laughs) >> We have some, let me tell you, we have some pretty cool tricks up our sleeve. We're not going to show our hand just yet, but the stuff we're doing with the Google guys, you know, I wouldn't underestimate the amount of work the teams have put into this. This is a amazing collaboration at the development level. It's something that I don't think Google has ever done before. And I think Google, like NetApp, we see each other as very, very strong partners at a very, very deep level. >> So you're talking about engineering resources that you're providing. Can you help us understand that? Or quantify that in any way? >> Oh yeah, so ... >> Couple of guys and a laptop, or we talking about ... >> It's a very large team, and a growing team. You know, my team at NetApp, just building software on the cloud, is six-seven hundred people strong now, all product managers and developers. I mean, we take this business very, very seriously. >> This is the future of NetApp. This is a competitive strategy for you guys. >> I think NetApp is cloud first. Just imagine, did you ever think you'd hear NetApp say we're a cloud first company? Because that's what we are. >> We don't hear your competitors saying that, I can tell you that right now. >> This is NetApp's fifth life. Like I said, I've been following this company a long time. It started with workstations, you brought file to dot-com. Then you went hard after that, dot-com blew up. You went hard into the enterprise. Bet the farm on virtualization. Now you're betting the farm on cloud. >> You know, I tell you the one thing that I've been at NetApp, as I said, for about 18 months. And the company has passion and conviction and belief. And what it does so amazingly well is it leans into the things that people think are going to kill it. >> Yeah. And there ... >> And you've met Dave, right? He's a wonderful guy. He founded the company, he's still involved in the company. He's here, he's learning cloud, and he loves it. >> We saw him last night, he's a great entrepreneur. And again, that's the kind of leadership, when the founders stay around, companies succeed. I've always said that, I wrote about it. And it statistically is proven. Lean in to anything you think will probably kill you, you'll probably come out stronger. And that's really an entrepreneurial lesson. >> I tell you, the other thing that I would say, more than anything else, and it was really the biggest part of my decision to join NetApp, is a technical CEO. >> Yeah. >> You have to have a technical CEO. No disrespect to sales guys that become CEO's, or finance guys that become CEO's, they're just not as good as the technical ones. And George is an engineer. >> Yup. And he gets it. He's very passionate and committed about the product. And that, that to me, I think-- >> More than ever now in a changing tide where technology decisions, the bets can be company killing or company making, about little things, how you deal with service meshes, >> Exactly right. >> How you deal with provisioning storage through software now, these are new things. >> You know, this stuff doesn't happen overnight, right. It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. Software engineering, you know, is something that takes time. >> Well Anthony we really appreciate you taking the time to come on theCUBE. We love covering NetApp, we've been following your journey again, we see you at all the events, you guys are part of theCUBE community. We really appreciate that. And more than ever, we want to follow what you guys are doing in the cloud. We think it's competitive advantage vis-a-vis the competition. And want to see how it turns out. So... >> We're having so much fun. >> Let's keep in touch. >> So much fun. Thanks guys very much. >> Storageless is a big trend coming, trust me you heard it here first on theCUBE. I don't think they use that term yet, Dave. We'll be back with more live coverage, Day Two is coming to a close. Couple more segments, stay with us, for our three days of coverage of Google Cloud Google Next 2018. Be right back. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley. It's The Cube. Covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay welcome back everyone. We're here live in Palo Alto for The Cube's special broadcast presentation and coverage of Mobile World Congress. Which is happening in Barcelona, Spain. I'm John Furrier here with The Cube. And of course we're covering it here in Palo Alto. Bringing in experts and friends who have been following all the action. As well as have commentary and opinion on what's happening. We're going to roll up the news. It's the end of the day in Barcelona. We're just getting our sea legs here for day two of 8AM to 6PM coverage inside The Cube. And of course we want to break down the content. Our next guest is Val Bercovici who is the CTO at Solify also a governing board member of the CNCA the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Which was CubeCom which is now part of the Linux Foundation. Which if you know The Cube you know we've been covering that like a blanket. All these shows, The Cube has been there. This is in the world of Dockercon et cetera et cetera. Val, a CTO, 19-year veteran at NetApp of course knows the stories business, knows the converge infrastructure, know the Cloud. Val great to see you thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me back on after all these years. >> Yeah I mean it's great to have you on. We see each other at some of the parties, at Georgianna's place in particular. Georgianna brings all the storage and Cloud together but you and I had conversations a few years ago about where Cloud was going. And you can almost kind of connect the dots. Not to pat ourselves on the back, but I think we were right that the cloud was what we thought it would be. And probably more. For me I think I underestimated certainly the Amazon impact. >> Me too. >> But you look at what's happening in Mobile World Congress. You have a bi-polar show. You have a device show. Rah-rah look at the fancy devices. And the other show you have a Telco show that's trying to figure out their future. And that's interesting because the Telco's power the big networks that everyone's using the devices for. So you have a consumer market. But the real conversation is 5G IoT. You have a collision course of enterprise issues, enterprise data center, enterprise technology, colliding with a Telco infrastructure, AKA mobile. Head on. So it's not just more wireless. 5G's certainly the story we talked to folks like Intel and others around that but you have essentially all these core problems that are going to scale up this next generation use cases, are enterprise-like. This is your wheelhouse. So are you looking at this saying hm I've seen this movie before. What's your thoughts? >> I actually haven't. And that's what's so exciting right. As you said, there's so much innovation happening. For me probably the big story is what's not in the headlines at Mobile World Congress. Which is the back office work to support a 5G rollout. And I've had a lot of experience particularly on the side most recently. Speaking with all the big Telecos globally, and the implementations. Now what's interesting is they're all going through a gen two, or a re-architecture right now. A lot of first-generation MFE was done based on tradition or legacy now clad architecture which very VM based. And all of them are now architecting and implementing microservices based implementations. And a driver for that is just the explosion that 5G will enable in terms of connectivity between devices. So the least interesting stat to me is how fast I can download a movie off of 5G. The most interesting is how many hundreds of thousands or millions of devices within my domain are going to be communicating with each other on 5G. >> We had Saar Gillai who's going to come back today. He's also a guest, former HPer. He built their communications group while at NFE. I'd like it if he was commenting on the same thing, he made a point I want to bring up which is I don't really need more gigabit data, I want more battery life. So he's kind of being a pedestrian but that really is kind of the consumer issue. You're pointing about things that are going to be harder to do. In NFE you mention one of them. Can you explain the NFE's current situation? Also we've been doing a lot of the open stag all the open shows since it started. That has become kind of a Telco, NFE storage show as well. >> Val: Absolutely. >> So what is the real issue with NFE and why is it important and relevant to the service providers right now? >> So if you take a look at all the services we depend on on our phones nowadays. There's obviously the basic connectivity. There's additional services around location mapping for GPS, related services on top of that in terms of the collaborative apps that we use and depend on every day. Sometimes on S3 which is not always available as we're reporting right now. There's a lot of layers there. And from an NFV perspective from a back end data center perspective. Everything amounts to a session. So even though it's packet switch it's still a logical session you have to set up. So for every session, and imagine this happening millions of times at every tower, and more than millions of times at every regional or central data center. You got to have a session set up where you got to authenticate actually Who the user or the device is, make sure they have permission to be on the network and accessing certain things. You've got to authorize them to do certain things. You've got to log what's happening. Then you've got to slap some firewall or security around them. Then you've got to layer in access to all the other resources you're trying to combine into a service back to the end user. There's a lot of things going on. And we have to set up these sessions for every connection. And if you try to set up a VM, for every connection, you would have to fund a multi-billion dollar data center Google can't even afford. So this is where microservices are becoming essential right now. And a 5G hyper-connected world is where you have to have much more efficiency, in the speed with which you set up these sessions, the efficiency of number of sessions per server. And the cost, the processing of these transactions. >> This is interesting. I want to just kind of translate a little bit for the folks that aren't CTO's out there. Essentially when you think about mobile we've all been, you know, since the iPhone in 2007, we've seen this just accelerate. You know with data and whatnot. You've been at a concert, you've been in a stadium, you've got signal but you can't connect. >> Right. >> That is essentially the base station saying I can't get a session. Now as a user you have a phone, so you've been provisioned by the Telco, so they know who you are. So you have a phone, you have a device, you just can't connect a session to the radio connector and then get to the internet. That's a known problem. Now when you think about IoT, internet of things and now people, your watches, your wearables, sensors on the airplanes, industrial equipment to traffic lights. Those are devices that are going to be provisioned and turned off and on. So it's like a new phone every time. So you've got the complication of not knowing the devices that are coming on, and then trying to establish the connections. And figuring all this out. This is kind of a really hard problem. >> It is. >> This is a really really hard problem of scale at many levels. So to me what we're hearing at Mobile World Congress is you need a dynamic network. >> Val: Absolutely. >> What are some of the tech involved? What's the real enabler. You mentioned microservices, we know about containers. Linux Foundation's opening up their kernel for a lot of variety of new configurations. You got solid state memory and you got new memory architectures. What are some of the key things from a technical perspective that are going to change that complexity to be seamless for users? >> Probably the most fascinating trend to me and we're just beginning to see some stories emerge around this is the rise of edge computing. I kind of hark back to when I started my career, I'm dating myself now but the client server era that succeeded from mainframes, we've seen a huge pendulum shift towards Cloud computing. And centralizing a lot of processing. Well back to 5G, back to millions if not billions of connected devices right now. There is no way Einstein introduced his problem for the speed of light. There is no way to process the exponential amount of data we're dealing with right now at the core. And still provide useful feedback at the edge. So the rise of edge computing has a bit of a counterbalance to Cloud computing. And having more powerful, more intelligent processing at the edge, filtering a lot of data 'cause we can't possibly store the exit bytes and yadabytes of data. >> This is a paradigm shift. What you're talking about is a new paradigm shift. Because it used to be a centralized computer, and then a master slave or connected device terminal then you had smart terminals, business clients, and then PCs and then smart phones, so what you're bringing up is an interesting architecture that is an enterprise data center thing. And we were talking yesterday, and then I was telling the Intel folks, I pressed them on this 'cause they're obviously in the data center business, that a car that's fully instrumented like a Tesla or a future autonomous car is essentially a moving data center. So it changes the notion of data. >> Yes. >> This is a paradigm shift. You agree with that. >> Moreover. IoT is maybe the first technology buzzword that takes a lot of this digital world that we've been talking about. It's really been largely abstract and virtual for the common person. And it makes it physical and real. So the impact of IoT is an actuator changing your traffic light. You know, it's whether you're getting water, you're getting electricity at your house. Whether you're finding your way to your location via GPS. That's especially impacting your physical world it's no longer just a virtual thing. So that's where IoT's going to become really really significant in our lives. >> And the software program that needs to be created. This is an opportunity for entrepreneurs certainly. Peter Burris and I were talking yesterday morning about the edge computing. He's got a slew of research on this. He goes by IoT and p, IoT, things and people. And we were also talking yesterday about the relationship of the people to technology. So for instance in Telco's they view the phone as the relationship that's coupled to the carrier. And the premise we put out yesterday was that that's going to be an uncoupling. It's going to be a person's relationship to multiple carriers if you will. So the question is how does business extract value out of this? And this is something again that Peter Burris was digging into. Which is the business value of technology. In the paradigm we just talked about which seems pretty obvious, how we get there not so obvious, but people are working on that. How should companies think about getting value out of this massive shift? A lot of moving parts. >> The examples are already there. Let's talk about one of the most talked-about companies around here. Uber. And not because of the reasons they're attracting right now, but some of the classical disruption they enabled. Take a look at the fundamentals of what they do technically. It's interesting. It's somewhat impressive, but it's not revolutionary. What made them revolutionary is digitizing the transportation relationship you and I have with our transportation providers. And when they tapped into that they realized the potential for that is limitless right now. 'Cause we're all physical beings, we still have to move ourselves and our food, our packages around. But digitizing transportation is really you know a great example of any industry. Whether it's a 100-year-old industry or a brand new industry when you digitize the distribution, and when you actually add digital efficiencies in the back end, you end up with that 100 x effect, more than a 10 x effect. And truly earned the term disruptor. >> Give us more examples that you've seen. I know you talk a lot of Telco's but what other use cases. Because the whole notion of 5G and this new architecture is really coming down to use cases. And certainly the sexy ones. The car, the smart cities, I mean there's a lot of policy, societal impact issues that need to be thought through. But just generally, what's the low-hanging fruit right now? >> You know instead of low-hanging fruit let me give you the most pedestrian example I can think of. Which is when I meet with some of the waste management companies years ago I took them for granted. There was no innovation here. It's going to be an old enterprise discussion with some conservative tech leaders. I'm not even going to, I'm not trying to phone this is. I show up to meet with them, and they were truly innovating because they realized the whole customer experience of putting out your trash bin, your recycle bin, your organics bin, and so forth, your compost bin, can actually be improved. And the efficiencies added when you put GPS trackers on all the trucks. When you figure out when they have to go to the dump because there's an inordinately high amount of garbage put out early in the route one morning. And the ability for you to know when your bins are picked up. So you can actually go and pick up those bins. Put them out minutes before instead of the night before. Bring them back minutes after. Just reinventing that very pedestrian mundane experience tells me that there are opportunities for innovation everywhere in our lives. >> So really pick a spot to make efficient. Is probably easiest. Great, great feedback. Thoughts on developers. 'Cause it's something that we didn't, and we'd love to bring you back for more time on this but the CNC the Cloud Native Compute Foundation which is now part of the Linux Foundation, you mentioned microservices, orchestrations, there's a lot of software around composability, whether that's an artisan light developer, or the hardcore developers down lower on the stack. How does autonomous vehicles and this new future use case whether it's programming drones or writing cool software, to what's going on in the developer community? Can you share any color on trends around what's being done in traditional classic developing? >> Autonomous vehicles is already a perfect example because CNCF fundamentally is about what we call Cloud native technologies and applications. In a typical Cloud native architecture is container packaged not VM packaged. And it's dynamically orchestrated. So we say it's basically declarative as opposed to opinionated to use back end speak technical developer speak. But what does that mean? Autonomous cars are not interesting if one car is autonomous. Autonomous cars are interesting when dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of cars along your route those are autonomous. The interaction between them, and making sure they don't all try to occupy the same space at the same time. That's pretty essential. But also keeping traffic flowing smoothly and preventing unnecessary traffic jams. So it's the coordination of multiple processes, multiple things. That's what really make Cloud native computing happen at scale. So CNCF actually is five projects right now. Most people know it as the Kubernetes project and it is very much that. I think a year ago no one knew how hot Kubernetes would be but certainly it's taken off right now. Thanks a lot in part to Google. We've got new technologies around monitoring. So you've got a monitor your app obviously in the Cloud world to see what are the efficiencies performances for the end user. Around logging, distributed logging and monitoring. We've got new projects around actually debugging at scale. So debugging one process is simple as any developer knows. Debugging multiple concurrent threads or processes, that's still a black art. And so we've got open tracing technologies around that, and there's a new style of project, something known as link or d. But it's around now and the IoT context the most important thing to me discovery of context. What other devices, what other sensors are out there. >> It sounds like an operating system to me. You got linkers, you got loaders, you got all this orchestration. This is a global operating environment. >> It's a great insight. It's not an operating system. >> Not in like a classic sense. But there's some systems... >> It is a new operating environment. In the Cloud native world, operating system still connotates one PC, one device or one host on a data center. It really is a coordination of services. New modern high-end services. >> And declarative thing with containers is essentially assembly based, you can manage things component-wise, those kinds of concepts. And you see that as a key part of enabling these new use cases. >> There's actually no economies of scale if you don't go Cloud native nowadays. As 5G networks become more prevalent, as IoT becomes more mainstream, it doesn't play without microservice. >> And the trade-offs for not being Cloud native is what? >> Being disrupted. It's literally you know there's some great recent blogs. You've heard this title before, the coming SaaSpocalypse. So the disruption of the legacy SaaS vendors. The economics of them force you to basically have fixed subscription models with your customers. And whether you're using you know your CRM map once a day or 100 times a day. It costs you the same. These new Cloud native architectures are going to enable disruption in an industry because they only consume resources as a sessions for an app and the licensing and business model can now be that much more efficient. People are actually willing to be charged per use as opposed to per subscription. >> Now you know, I've gotten to know you over the years, and a great guest to have on The Cube. Thanks for sharing that insight. But it is an exciting time. You had a great run at NetApp. I mean you look at what NetApp's been doing, I mean they were the darling of Silicon Valley. Classic success story. Multiple reinventions, great founding team, great investors, just a classic run that they've had. As you look back now going forward, looking back and now looking forward, what are some of the things that get you jazzed up right now in terms of things that are that next wave that's coming. What do you see that's exciting and what would you share for folks for insight? >> I'd say the most exciting thing to me at a high level is the opportunity that 5G IoT enables. I think there's a whole new market segment. Some people might call it the real evolution of HCI. Which is edge computing, and all these really fast workloads. That are not going to be necessarily virtual desktops in terms of running or operating your business. But entirely new revenue streams, entirely new services, and all sorts of companies, digital or analog can offer. That excites me. And of course we've talked about the back end of the shift towards away from fast storage. Fast storage toward persistent memory. That in itself is going to open up a whole new category of apps that we've yet to see. >> Yeah we got to get that Linux rewritten and opened up. All kinds of new stuff. Great great commentary Val. Thanks for coming on The Cube to share. We certainly want to have you back. And really unpack and drill down and double down on what Cloud native impact means, and certainly edge and IoT computing. Really is going to be a fascinating run I think. I think that's going to open up a huge can of worms and an opportunity for really changing the game and creating great value and risk too. I mean Amazon S3's down as we speak. We're joking but you know we see insecurity problems out there and we'll stay on top of it. Of course The Cube has got you covered. And that's the hot themes really that's not being reported about Mobile World Congress that we're reporting. Which is the surge in IoT relevance. But that gives a mental model. This is the story of Mobile World Congress. 5G as a fabric connecting in with hard enterprise data center-like technologies. End to end for dynamic experiences. This is the challenge for Telcos. And someone will get it done. Let's see who it will be. Of course we'll be watching it. This is The Cube with more coverage of Mobile World Congress after this short break.