(upbeat instrumental music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to another great CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, our CUBE Studio, I'm John Furrier. We've got a great conversation with a friend Saar Gillai CUBE alumni. Saar is an executive, coaching startups, investing, was in Silicon Valley, sees a lot of the landscape, knows networking, knows cloud. Saar, great to see you. Thanks very much. >> It's great to be here again as always. >> Yeah, love having you come in and be an analyst for us and help us squint through some of the big mega trends that we're following. As you know, we believe that cloud is here to stay. And I'm always chirping, certainly online about how Amazon clearly way ahead of Microsoft Google has a great network, and you and I we going to to talk more about that. But the game is just getting started and compute is phase one of the game of cloud. >> Saar: Correct. >> Completely been commoditized it's serverless, a lot of great things are helping developers. This next wave of networking is going to be the next battleground of innovation and certainly transformation. This is your wheelhouse, you've seen this movie, from old school networking to telcos to now, we're in the middle of it. What's your take on networking? Because we're going to be at Cisco Live Barcelona next week. But you have a good view into the overall landscape. Tell us what are you seeing? >> Sure, no, I mean, I think you said it right. I mean, basically if you look at what happened in computing in the last decade plus or minus in terms of the the advent of the public cloud and the cloud model and automation, even if you're using private cloud, you know, that is all going to, what happened last 10 years there is going to happen in networking in the next 10 years. Because, you know, there's no reason why these things aren't going to happen. The cloud has changed the model people work, people expect to be as a service. More and more of the network traffic is moving from the enterprise into the cloud, or to reach the cloud and that's changing how important is in a network, it's changing how the network's going to operate. >> The cloud certainly has been game changing. And I want to get your thoughts on this. You call it, and before we came on camera I'll make sure we get this out, the cloudification of networking. >> Saar: Correct. >> And this is a term that you coined, what is that mean? Tell us what is cloudification of networking? >> Sure well there are different elements to it, right. But, you know, I think if you look, I think the first thing that's important is to look at it from the user perspective, like what does it mean from a user, right? So if you look at the classic network, you know, 10 years ago most of your traffic is in your campus and in your own data center. And you're using standard Cisco switches, you know, you've got, you know, some hierarchical system you've got your data center, you're using six K's in there, set of nexuses whatever, you've got your end switches some WiFi, that's what the world looks like, that's where everything goes. And you may have someone WAN with MPLS and maybe things like that. But, you know, that's not a big use or some internet use, the internet, but that's not your mission-critical network. If you now fast forward to 2020. I can't even say that >> It's like you've been 10 years. >> 2020 is like, you know, God, all of a sudden, from user perspective, where are you getting your packets from, right? Most of your stuff in a public cloud. So your traffic, whether you're in enterprise or at home, is typically going toward the cloud. The cloud itself has its own very complicated network of 100 gig up to even getting going to 400 gig at some point connections, massive, massive data centers, fully automated, right? In the campus is all Wi-Fi, but again most of the traffic is back and forth to the cloud. So if you look at the network architecture the network architecture you have, the cloud now has completely changed the network architecture from being mostly internal to all being from you to the public cloud. And the public cloud itself now has become such a super compute system, that's like a massive computer. And of course massive computer has massive networking. Now when you think about cloud, so that's from a user perspective. Now let's talk about what this actually means. So first of all, you know, when you think about the cloud, okay, what has enabled the cloud? I mean, the cloud there's nothing special about the cloud. It's a bunch of CPUs and coordinate jobs, okay, but it can happen fast. Why can it happen fast? 'Cause it's automated, right? It's all automated it's all software, right? It's CICD develop, deploy, boom, boom, boom, right? There's nothing you're doing there that you couldn't do 20 years ago it just would take a year instead of a day because nothing was automated, okay. Now you look at networking right? That means that everything is going to be automated and software-centric. So, you know, if you look at the way the network is today, classically, right, it's not really automated. Yes, people have done some scripting and so forth, but it's not an automated dynamic environment that is software-centric. So if you look at, for example, the data center that people are building, if you look at the big public cloud guys have deployed, right, they have deployed a very automated system. You look it and say, "Well how many SIS admins "there are per how many nodes right?" And the ratio is in these public clouds are things that you've never seen in enterprise. So you're seeing the data centers becoming these very cloud-centric networks. And then you're seeing the whole traffic pattern change, where you're mission-critical network now is from where you are to the public cloud over the WAN. And this is what's driving, you know, the evolution of SD-WAN. >> So essentially WAN used to be old school, you had your local area network you mentioned the data center and PCs all connected, hubs and printers. And then you go out over the wide area network to something else, another building another data center maybe third party cloud and and other storage. Now you're saying it's all, essentially, going to the cloud. So WAN is the new LAN then. >> And what happens also is that you quickly get on one of these big networks. So you, you know, you think about, okay, what does the LAN look like, right? Historically the WAN was a bunch of links between data centers, you know, you had leased lines you could go from, you know, you had like every enterprise had I don't know 20, 30 data centers worldwide and then be linked in the WAN. Now what you do is you get on the first connection into an Amazon or Google or Microsoft network and then you're in their network. And so these guys have massive networks. Like, if you ask me, "Who's got the biggest "most impressive WAN? It's Google. They built it for themselves, right. If you put a-- >> So you're saying Google's the best network. of all the clouds? >> Yes, and it's not necessarily long, they don't have it long term, but Google has always been crazy about performance, right. They're crazy about performance because that, you know, it's about how fast can you get a search result and so on-- >> And they had (chuckles), that's money, speed is money to Google, right. >> Speed is money to Google and so Google have, from day one, looked at ways to optimize their network, their internal network, and the Google Cloud gets the benefit of that, right. They are crazy about performance. So they have, Microsoft is getting better, they're working a lot on it. And Amazon I think is now, Amazon is very good inside their network. So they built a lot of, they've been very focused on how fast their internal, like, their data center between the servers and so on. They did Annapurna and they did all kinds of optimizations there, which have actually led the industry. But when you go into the WAN, that hasn't been a big focus for Amazon to date. >> And Google's got great security too they've have lot of security. >> So, you know, from a inside a data center perspective I would say that Amazon is top. Once you start talking about the WAN connection, Google is the best. >> All right, so I'm trying to pull this together. So the cloudification of networking means, if I hear you correctly is, what the LAN used to mean with the data center. You had a data center and you had LANs there was a campus or whatever, is now the cloud. The cloud is now the new data center, and that's the WAN is now the new LAN? >> Correct, exactly correct. The data center is the cloud, the LAN is the WAN, yep. >> So, okay, I get that. By the way I agree with that, I think there's going to be a massive disruption-- >> And again there's a long tail. So you can easily say to me, "No, well look, look at all these LAN's." Sure my future is here, it's not evenly distributed, okay. There's a long tail, nothing's disappearing, but today-- >> How many NICs are in the PCs on the desk these days? Probably not a lot of PCs and no, NICs only Wi-Fi. >> It's Wi-Fi and also, look, there's the question you have to ask is, how many data centers does the average enterprise have? How many new data centers have been commissioned? You know, when I was at HP a decade ago whatever, right? We had data centers up the wazoo, that's where everything was, right. Nobody commission's data centers now. The only people buying data centers are cloud guys. >> Yeah, and we'll get to Equinix comp share I want to get to the Outpost with Amazon, 'cause I think that hybrid edge is an interesting trend that will come into the whole network edge thing. But let's stay on this WAN thing because if you're saying, and I'm agreeing with you, that what the LAN was to the data center you have WAN to the cloud. >> Saar: Correct. >> So if the cloud disrupts and creates an innovative enabling opportunity for startups and the clouds to create new value, it's going to be there. So with that being said, if you believe that, what happens to the old SD-WAN markets because the old SD-WAN was a riverbed was a box you connected one thing to another, in other words-- >> So again, first of all on paper it's a revolution, in the market it's an evolution (laughs). And so, you know, SD-WAN itself has been moving in different directions, you know, it started off with just, okay, we do choices. Now, it's more about WAN and you still have the telcos who are offering services with boxes in front of them. And that's not a bad businesses, it's growing. But, over time, the question you want to have to ask is, if the Amazon or the Google or whatever network becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, how many hops do I need before I just get on their cloud, and then I'm just under cloud and they have a massive internal network? >> I love the expression it's not your grandfather's blank, has always been am expression. So it's not your grandfather's SD-WAN would mean, like, if you look at, like, all the incumbent players you got Cisco even with VMware, they all SD-WAN players. But SD-WAN's different now. So what does SD-WAN look like because you have startups coming out, you have security companies, I'm covering the news on security companies that are becoming SD-WAN. >> Because the firewall, the firewall and your Wanax is becoming the same thing. So if you're a Palo Alto, if you're a firewall company, or if you're an SD-WAN company's security and if your firewall company, right, you need to have SD-WAN, it's becoming the same thing. The firewall used to be the entry point into your network. And now it's SD-WAN, because that's like a distributed firewall, right, that's your perimeter. And so now the difference what's happening in SD-WAN is, you know, in the early days of SD-WAN it was about choice like you basically said, okay, "I can put my slow traffic "or my less important traffic on standard internet "and I can put my important traffic "on my expensive MPLS links, right?" Problem is MPLS is not very dynamic, and people want a lot more capabilities. And so now it's much more intelligent where you have various players saying, "No, I can give you a faster link" not over, like, Teridion the company I used to work for did that, as well as other companies, as well, and so now it's becoming a lot more sophisticated in that. It's like, okay, give me the traffic and I'll figure out how to get it across. And a lot of people are saying you don't even need MPLS anymore. But the thing that's important to understand about the SD-WAN is-- >> That was locked down traffic routes that was essentially application workloads that were earmarked to be high priority or value. Now you have dynamic-- >> Now it's dynamic, but I think the important thing that, the question that you need to ask yourself all the time is. What is the goal? Why does SD-WAN exist? >> John: That's my question. >> So SD-WAN, so why does WAN exist, right? So WAN exist because you want to connect to resources that are further than the LAN right? SD-WAN exists because the existing connections were either too expensive or too inflexible. So we figured out a software way to do that, which is better. But, if all you're trying to do is get to the cloud resources, and the cloud is expanding it's going to eventually push on SD-WAN. >> John: So I've got to ask you, why is there been a renaissance in SD-WAN, what's the reach? >> I don't think there's been a renaissance I think that-- >> John: It's kind of seems to be growing. >> But, it's not a renaissance, it's been growing I don't think it ever stopped. I mean, there was there software-defined networking, which was sort of all talk-- >> Why is SD-WAN exploding in popularity? >> It's exploding because of the cloud. Because what happens is, if you're an enterprise all your traffic now is going to the cloud, and you need a dynamic WAN to support that. MPLS isn't going to cut it anymore for you right? It's not dynamic, it's not flexible. Even if it's not expensive, it's too complicated and internationally too expensive. So if you have like offices all over the world and all they want to do is access your cloud your Salesforce and so forth. It doesn't work very well. It's not dependable. It's not a, unless you tie in a bunch of MPLS lines all the time, it's not very reliable. And so you want something that can do that reliably. >> And SaaS drives that the cloud and SaaS. >> SaaS drives it correct the consumption model of SaaS is driving the need for a better WAN. The current solution for a better WAN is different flavors of SD-WAN. >> I want to ask you about Cisco because one of the things I'm really been focused on is the evolution of Cisco. They own the routes, they have BGP, cloud has networking but there's some needs that the enterprise's might have, certainly at the edge and with the edge of the network, and Cisco has that position. The future of networking in the cloud application of networking if we take this to the next level is, puts a bulls eye on Cisco. It certainly shines a spotlight on their market position and potentially opportunities or losses that they may incur from it. So there's opportunities, there's scenarios of where they can gain big time. And there's scenarios where they could get flat-footed. What your thoughts on their position. >> That's a really good, I think that's a really good point. Look, the good news, so yes, if you look at what happened to the various incumbents in compute, you know, the move to cloud was interesting at best for them, right? And so obviously the cloudification of networking and the fact that more of it will be in the public cloud is going to present some challenges to the existing network players, The biggest one of course and probably the most capable of them being Cisco, of course. But the change will be different because networking, as all the networking geeks always say, is a bit different, right. I think the first thing that, the first challenge that Cisco faces is, you know, we're moving to, as a service, right? And they've started to understand that and, you know, you have like Meraki that provides everything as a service. So I think, they're just a business model thing, they would have to figure out, okay, well how do we charge? Because, you know, people are used to cloud, they're saying well I want everything as a service. I think the bigger challenge that I think-- >> That's working up for some, Nutanix took a year. They took a loss on their stock price for a year but the pivot moved. >> They have to move. And again you have to decide when you make that switch, the innovators dilemma right? Especially someone like Cisco's got massive business you know, you can't just say, "Oh this is cool let's go do that." >> John: Next week. >> So it's a difficult, it's obviously-- >> So they can do as a service. What else do you see? >> The can do as a service. I think the bigger issue for them is when you start doing as a service then the question is what assets do you own in the network on the WAN, right? Today, they tried to do this, when the cloud came up they had their multicloud, I forgot what they called it, and that really didn't play out because they weren't really a compute provider to do that, so that made sense. I think in the network they have a lot more assets. But I think they're going to have to own some assets I think to provide a network as a service they can go two ways, they can rely on the telcos. But, you know, I think CISCO's a bit more agile than the telcos, and I don't know that's going to work. They're trying to do that-- >> There's a new chip coming out. >> They're trying to do that to rely on the telcos to do this as a service. But I think ultimately they're going to have to figure out how to own some networking assets if they truly want to be a player here. >> When you say assets what do you mean by that? more assets-- >> A network, own networks, own a network. Like if you're looking at the, if you look at Amazon or Google so forth, right? They're owning, they're building out networks. If you want to do a network as a service and you don't own some assets, right. >> John: You're relying on someone else. >> You're relying on someone else, and, you know, that works, but, you know, like apple if you want to control the experience you need to own it. Now they understand, the good news about Cisco is, you know, they, Cisco understands all of this, they understand networking, they're very close to their customers, they see what's going on. But, you know, they have innovators dilemma they've got to deal with. >> I would agree, you think they understand what's going on? >> Yes. >> And they just haven't made their moves yet? >> They haven't made moves that are obvious. And also, you know, dilemmas are difficult, right, innovators dilemma, there's a reason why it's called the dilemma. If it wasn't a dilemma, then you'd just go, "Okay let's do this," right (chuckles). So it's easy to sit here and pontificate while they're protecting a whatever $50 billion business. I think that they understand they've got to make choices and they've got to pick the timing of when they do certain things. >> That's the key point. Sometimes the best decision is not to move, but also the time that they waste you can't get that back. So, timings everything here. Just in your opinion, if you were at Cisco what would you do? Get some assets? >> I think that historically when Cisco had to wanted to make big moves like this the way they got around waiting is acquisitions. So, you know, I think that they will have to acquire some, if they want to make this move they choose to make this move it will involve acquisitions, maybe deeper partnerships with some people who currently own networks. There are various players in that area, in that space. But historically, at least, that's been their playbook and that way, because they have a big checkbook, they can make up for the fact that they took their time. >> Yeah, but, also John Chambers addressed transitions with a lot of M&A and it ended up biting them in the butt a little bit because you've got to integrate it all. I personally think that Cisco's opportunity is to be the on ramp for multicloud, to own the edge, and I think they need to find their TCP/IP moment. If you go back to the OSI stack, that changed the game, that created Internetwork, and that created Cisco the open standards. And I see the whole world almost going to proprietary. I remember those days you had DECnet, SNA proprietary NAS, right, and what's interesting now is everyone's going back to these proprietary walled garden kind of models, you know, open source with a twist. So the question I'm looking at is that, is there going to be this interoperable layer, abstraction layer that could exist between creating cloudification of networking and more value? >> Look I think the opportunity, right, but again that opportunity requires a big investment. And Cisco has the ability to make that investment, is to be the on ramp to the multicloud. But that means your network has to be better than the cloud guys because you're honest broker, and to have a map, but you only have one massive footprint whether it's through partnerships or whatever, you have to have massive footprint, that footprint costs money. So like I said, I think if someone could do it, Cisco could do it, but, you know, they have the service providers who are their partners. So, you know, they may not be that happy, requires a big investment, requires a different mindset. I think they understand the challenge. I think, again, they have innovators dilemma, but it's an opportunity and a threat for them. >> Well, Saar, it's great to see you. I know you're just chilling out now advising, investing, you're clipping coupons sitting on the beach. >> Beats is hard, but you know. >> You're doing some fun things. Let's get you back in, there're some things I wanted to chat next time, 5G network automation. I think the analytics, auto tuning, AI is going to be a big thing. I think Wi-Fi application awareness. These are topics I would love to have you come in and do a drill down on, appreciate it. >> Always great to be here. >> Great. Saar Galli, friend of theCUBE. Now analysts here in our studio for future of networking. We're going to continue the series, more networking. Cloudification of networking a big trend, theCUBE is on it. It's going to impact the edge, it's going to impact enterprises, it's going to impact how we do business. And more importantly how software is being built. This is theCUBE here in Palo Alto I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching (upbeat instrumental)

(dramatic music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studio for a CUBE conversation. It's really a great thing that we like to take advantage of. A little less hectic than the show world and we're right in the middle of all the shows, if you're paying attention. So we're happy to have a CUBE alumni on. He's been on many, many times. Saar Gillai , he's now the CEO of Teridion. And Saar, welcome. I don't think we've talked to you since you've been in this new role. >> Yeah, it's been about a year I think. >> Been 'about a year. So give us kind of the update on Teridion. What it's all about and really more importantly, what attracted you to the opportunity? >> Sure. First of all, great to be here. I don't know where John is. I'm looking for him. He ran away. Maybe he knew I was coming. >> Somewhere over the Atlantic I think. 35,000 feet. >> I'll follow up on that later but hey, you're here. So, you know Teridion, let's talk about maybe the challenge that Teridion is addressing first so people will understand that, right. So if you look about what's going on these days with the advent of Cloud. and how people are really accessing stuff, things have really moved in the past. Most of the important services that people access were in a data center and were accessed through the LAN so the enterprise had control over them and if you wanted to access an app, if it didn't work, somebody when into the LAN, played around with some CISCO router and things maybe got better. >> But at least you had control. >> You had control and if you look at what's happened over the last decade, but certainly in the last five years, with SAS and the Cloud. Stating the obvious, more and more of your services now are actually being accessed through your WAN and in many cases, that actually means the internet itself. If you're accessing Salesforce or Box or Ignite or any of these services. The challenge with that is that now means that a critical part of your user experience, you don't control. The vendor doesn't control because you can make the best SAS up in the world but, and those apps are increasingly very dynamic. Caching doesn't solve this problem and the problem is now, okay, but I'm experiencing it over the internet. And while the internet is a great tool obviously, it's not really built for reliabilty, consistency, and consistent speed. Reality, if you look at the internet, it was designed to sent one packet to NORAD and tell them that some nuclear missile died somewhere. That's what it was designed for right? So the packet will get there but the jitter and all these things may work and so what happens is that, now you have a consistency problem. Historically, people will say well, that's all been addressed through traditional caching and that's true. Caching still has it's place. The reality is though that caching is more for stuff that doesn't change a lot and now, it's all very dynamic. If you're uploading a file, that's not a caching activity. If you're doing something in Salesforce, it's very dynamic. It's not cached. At Teridion, we looked at this problem. Teridion's been around about four years. I've been there for about a year. We felt that the best way to solve this problem was actually to leverage some of the Cloud technology that already exists to solve it. So what we do, actually, is we build an overlay network on top of the public Cloud surface area. So instead of traditionally, the way people did things is they would build a network themselves but today the public Cloud guys honestly are spending gazillions of dollars building infrastructure. Why not leverage it the same way that you don't buy CPUs, why buy routers? What we do is we create a massive overlay network on demand on the public Cloud surface area. And public Cloud means not just Amazon or Google but also people like AliCloud, DigitalOcean, Vulture, any Cloud provider really, some Russian Cloud providers. And then we monitor the internet conditions and then we build a fast path. If you think about it almost like a ways, a fast path for your packet from wherever the customer is to your service thereby dramatically increasing the speed but also providing much higher reliabilty. >> So, lot of thoughts. If I'm hearing right, you're leveraging the public Cloud infrastructure so they're pipes, if you will. >> And they're CPUs. >> And they're CPUs but then you're putting basically waypoints on that packet's journey to reroute to a different public Cloud infrastructure for that next leg if that's more appropriate. >> Yeah, and basically what I'm doing is I'm basically just saying if there's a, if your server's here whether they're on a public Cloud or somewhere else, it doesn't matter, and a customer is here, through some redirection, I will create a router on a public Cloud so a soft router, somewhere close from a network perspective to a user and somewhere close to the server and then between them, I'll create an overlay fast path. And then, what is goes over will be based on whatever the algorithm figures out. The way we know where to go over is we also have a sensor network distributed throughout the public Cloud surface areas and it's constantly creating a heat map of where there's capacity, where there's problems, where there's jitter and we'll create a fast path. Typically that fast path will give you, one of the challenges, I'll give you an example. So let's say you're on Comcast and let's say you've got 40 meg let's say, your connection at home. And then you connect to some server and theoretically that server has much more, right? But reality is, when you do that connection, it's not going to be 40 meg. Sometimes it's 5 meg, okay? So we'll typically give you almost your full capacity that you have from your first provider all the way there by creating this fast path. >> So how does it compare, we hear things about like Direct Connect between Equinix and Amazon or a lot of peer relationships that get set up. How does what you're doing kind o' compare, contrast, play, compare to those solutions? >> Direct Connect is sort of a static connection. If you have an office and you want to have a Direct Connection, it's got advantages and it's useful in certain areas. Part of the challenge there is that first of all, it has a static capacity. It's static and it has a certain capacity. What we do, because it's completely software oriented, is we'll create a connection and if you want more capacity, we'll just create more routers. So you can have as much capacity as you want from wherever you want where with Direct Connect, you say I want this connection, this connection, this much capacity and it's static. So if you have something very static, then that may be a good solution for you but if you're trying to reach people at other places and it's dynamic, and also you want variable capacities. For example, let's say you say I want to pay for what I use. I don't want to pay for a line. Historically, when you're using these things, you say okay, if the maximum I may want is 40 meg, you say okay, give me a 40 meg line. That's expensive. >> Right, right. >> But what if you say I want 40 meg only for a few hours a day right? So in my case, you just say look, I want to do this many terabytes. And if you want to do it at 40 meg, do it at 40 meg. It doesn't matter. So it's much more dynamic and this lends itself more to the modern way of people thinking of things. Like the same way you used to own a server and you had to buy the strongest server you needed for the end of the month because maybe the finance guy needed to run something. Today you don't do that right? You just go to public Cloud and when it's the end of the month, you get more CPUs. We're the same thing. You just set a connection. If you need more capacity, then you'll get more capacity that you need. We had a customer that we were working with that was doing some mobile stuff in China and all of a sudden, they needed to do 600,000 connections a minute from China. And so we just scaled up. You don't have to preconfigure any of this stuff. >> Right, right. So that's really where you make the comparison of public Cloud for networking because you guys are leveraging public Cloud infrastructure, you're software based so that you can flex so you don't have the old model. >> It's completely elastic, like I said. It's very similar. Our view is the compute in the last decade, obviously, compute has moved from a very static I own everything mode to let's use dynamic resources as much as possible. Of course, there's been a lot of advantage to that. Why wouldn't your connectivity, especially your connectivity outside which is increasing your connectivity also use that paradigm. Why do you need to own all this stuff? >> Right, right. As you said before we turned the cameras on the value proposition to your customers who are the people that basically run these big apps, is the fact that they don't have to worry about that but net is just flat out faster to execute the simple operations like uploading or downloading something to BOX. >> And again, you mentioned BOX, they're one of our big customers and we have a massive network if you thing about how much BOX uploads in a given day, right? 'Cause there's a lot of there traffic that goes through us. But if you think about these SAS providers, they really need to focus on making their app as good as possible and advancing it and making it as sophisticated as possible and so, the problem is then there's this last edge which is from their server all the way to the customer, they don't really control. But that is really important to the customer experience, right? If you're trying to upload something to BOX or trying to use some website and it's really slow, your user experience is bad. It doesn't matter if it's the internet's fault. You're still as a customer, So this gives them control. They give us that ability and then we have control that we can give it much faster speed. Typically in the US, it may be two to five times faster. If you're going outside the US, it could be much faster sometimes. In China, we go 15 times faster. But also, it's consistent and if you have issues, we have a knock, we monitor, we can go look at it. If some customer says I have a problem, right? We'll immediately be able to say okay, here's the problem. Maybe there's a server issue and so forth as opposed to them saying I have a problem and the SAS vendor saying well, it's fine on our side. >> Right, right. So, I'm curious on your go to market. Obviously, you said BOX is a example of a customer. You've got some other ones on the website. Who are these big application service providers, that term came up the other day, like flashback to 1990. 1998 >> I call them SAS >> It's funny, we were talking about the old days. >> To me, it's all the same, as a service guy. >> But then, as you go to market then going to include going out directly through the public Clouds in some of their exchanges so that basically, I could just buy a faster throughput with the existing service. Where do you go from here? I imagine, who doesn't want faster internet service period? >> Yeah, we started off going to the people who have the biggest challenge and easier to work with a small company right? You want to work with a few big guys. They also help you design your solution, make sure it's good. If you can run BOX and Traffic and Ignite. Traffic can probably handle other things, last year for example. We are looking at potentially providing some of the service, for example, if you're accessing S3 for example, we can access S3 at least three times faster. So we are looking potentially at putting something on the web where you could just go to Amazon and sign up for that. The other thing that we're looking at, which is later in the year, probably is that we haven't gotten a lot of requests from people that said hey, since the WAN is the new LAN, right, and they want to also try to use this technology for their enterprise WAN between branch offices where SD-WAN is sort of playing today, we've gotten a lot of requests to leverage this technology also in SD-WAN and so we're also looking at how that could potentially play out because again, people just say look, why can't I use this for all my WAN connectivity? Why is it only for SAS connectivity? >> Right, right. I mean it makes sense. Again, who doesn't want, the network never goes fast enough, right? Never, never, never. >> It's not only speed. I agree with you but it's not only speed. What you find, what people take for granted in the LAN but they only notice it when now they're running over the LAN is that it's a business critical service. So you want it to be consistent. If it's up, it needs to have latency, jitter, control. It needs to be consistent. It can't be one second it's great, the next second it's bad and you don't know why and visibility. No one's ever had that problem. >> I'm just laughing. I'm thinking of our favorite Comcast here. If they're not a customer, you need to get them on your list. Help make some introductions hopefully. >> So, people take that for granted when they're LAN and then when they move to the Cloud, they just assume that it's going to continue but it doesn't actually work that way. Then they get people from branch offices complaining that they couldn't upload a doc or the sales person was slow and all these problems happen and the bigger issue is, not only is this a problem, you don't have control. As a person providing a service, you want to have control all the way so you can say "yeah, I can see it. "I'm fixing it for you here. "I fixed it for you." And so it's about creating that connection and making it business critical. >> It's just a funny thing that we see over and over and over where cutting edge and brand new quickly becomes expected behavior very, very quickly. The best delivery by the best service, suddenly you have an expectation that that's going to be consistent across all your experiences with all your apps. So you got to deliver that QS. >> Yeah, and I think the other thing that we notice, of course, is because of the explosion of data right? It's true that the internet's capacity is growing but data is growing faster because people want to do more because CPUs are stronger, your handset is stronger and so, so much of it is dynamic. Like I said before, historically, some of this was solved by just let's cache everything. But today, everything is dynamic. It's bidirectional and the caching technology doesn't do that. It's not built for that. It's a different type of network. It's not built for this kind of capacity so as more and more stuff is dynamic, it becomes difficult to do these things and that's really where we play. And again, I think the key is that historically, you had to build everything. But the same way that you have all these SAS providers not building everything themselves but just building the app and then running on top of the public Cloud. The same thing is why would I go build a network when the public Cloud is investing a hundred billion dollars a year in building massive infrastructure. >> Yeah, and they are, big infrastructure. Well Saar, thanks for giving us the update and stopping by and we will watch the story unfold. >> Great to be here. >> Alright. And we'll send John a message. >> I'll have to track him down. >> Alright, he's Saar, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. It's a CUBE conversation at our Palo Alto Studio. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (dramatic music)

>> [Voiceover] Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Palo Alto, California inside theCube's new studios, 4500 square feet in Palo Alto, just opened up last month and excited to be here. Breaking down Mobile World Congress all day, from 8 a.m. to 6, today and tomorrow. As their day ends, we're going to pick up the coverage, do the analysis, get some commentary and reaction to all the news and also the big trends and my next guest here in the studio is Saar Gillai, friend of the Cube, Cube alumni, and former HPE Senior Vice President GM of the teleco business. Ran the cloud, then a variety of things with Meg Whitman at HPE, now he's independent board member and in between gigs on the beach, clipping coupons as we say, Saar, great to see you, looking good. >> Great to be here, nice studio. >> I'm excited that you could come in, this is exactly why we're having our show here in this new studio because a lot of folks that don't take the big trek to Barcelona who don't have to can come in and talk to us and you've been a veteran of Mobile World Congress for many years. Again, you ran, and actually built the cloud biz and also built the, I won't say NFV biz, but essentially the teleco communications division for HPE so you know a lot about what's happening in the industry and more importantly Mobile World Congress. This is the year that all the accelerant is coming to the table, all the rocket fuel is being poured out on to the bonfire, the matches are going to be lit, it's called 5G, it's called IOT, internet of things, internet of people, the devices look good, they all want to be Apple, they all want to be over the top, running entertainment, smart cities, cars, 5G is the holy grail, we're done. But seriously, where is the meat on the bone on this thing? Is it real, is this transformation hype or reality at Mobile World Congress? >> Yes. (laughing) >> Yes, hype or yes, it's real? >> There's a lot of hype, but there's some reality. I mean I think first of all, 5G is the latest thing, it used to be LTE, now it's 5G. What does 5G actually mean? Really, for people, what 5G means is you should have a lot more capacity, right? So 5G talks about even up to one gigabit in certain cases, lower latency and so forth. Now the thing about wireless is you know, there's no secrets in wireless, okay? It's not like... >> It's a physics game. >> ...Yeah, it's physics, it's not like ethernet, where you can go from one meg to 10 meg then all you have to do is run more line and you're good. If that was so easy in wireless right now, we'd all be getting one gigabyte right, but we're not. So the only way you increase capacity in wireless is through smaller cells, and there are some mimo technologies and so forth. You know, 5G talks abouts technologies that will enable you to do that, but it's much more of an evolution than revolution and people need to understand that. There's no fundamental shift, what they're talking about in 5G is adding a lot more bandwidth. Today, most of the frequencies being used are sub five gigahertz, those are great frequencies to go through walls, they're not that great in terms of capacity and there's not that much of them. Like AT&T might have 60 megahertz, that's the entire capacity they have in the U.S. And that's not much. And so they're talking about using millimeter waves, other things like 27 gig, 28 gig, 60 gig. Now, those do have a lot more capacity, they have other problems, they don't go through walls. So, I think instead of thinking about 5G, we need to think about, okay, what problems are we trying to solve? Like, what problems is this going to solve? I think in some sense, it's... ...while everyone wants more broadband, some of it is a solution looking for a problem. >> [John] Yeah, it's a field of dreams too dynamic, build it, they will come. That has been a network operator concept, right? And then we know the operators, and you and I have talked about this on theCube many years, the operators are having business model challenges, problems, challenges, there are opportunities, but at the same time there is a bigger picture I want to get your thoughts on. So in a vacuum, there's limitations, there's physics, but now, you're looking at a connected network, and this is the end to end concept, so under the covers of wireless, assuming wireless has its topology, architectural things you could do, smaller cells, different frequencies, how it's going through walls is preferred, longer distance, longer latency through walls, that's the ideal scenario. But I think there's a bigger picture around the different types of wireless networks, but there's cars, there's mobility, actual true mobility, 60 miles an hour in a car versus walking down the street or sitting in a stadium or at home. These are use cases. How much of it is a wireless problem versus another problem? NFV, end to end, virtualization, help us parse that through, how should we think about this? >> There's two issues, there's a wireless problem, we can talk about the different segments that make sense and don't make sense or how much they have to evolve to make sense. And then fundamentally, the networks are very... ...they're not that agile as we know. Which is why NFV really, if you remove NFV, and you just... ...NFV's about creating agility, and yes their doing for virtualization and yada yada, but it's about creating agility, creating automation, right? You can't have these... ...a lot of these networks were designed years ago even 3GPP, this is a decade old. And so yes, there's a lot of work that has to be done and creating much more agility in a network because the network isn't built for that. Just if you think about even simple things like number of subscribers that can go on and off, right? Okay, if you have a cell phone. Like today, if you look in the world there might be 80 billion subscribers, lets say. If you look at the number of cell phones and so forth. But once you start IOT, you might have 100 billion because every device will be a network. That's a different management system, right? Also, those devices may go on and off every day, right? Because you buy a new device, you plug it in the wall. Okay, phones, you don't start a new phone every day, right? People buy a phone to use it, so, the network becomes much more dynamic, the back end has to be more dynamic, that has a side effect and so there's a lot of work that has to be done on the backend to make it more dynamic. That's the backend problem and then, you know, they are working on it. >> [John] And the bright spots there are what? What are the bright spots happening today, this week at Mobile World Congress and the trends around the backend? >> Well, you know, I mean Mobile World Congress is a show, right? And these are not sexy things, so we probably won't hear a lot about them, but you hear about orchestration, automation, network virtualization, basically moving all this through the cloud paradigm, where you have a lot more flexibility. I mean if you think about what's happening NFV these days for example, you don't hear a lot about it, but what is happening a lot is onboarding work. Okay, we've talked a lot about it, from that hype, now we're into build-out, right? So you hear less about it, but stuff is actually happening. >> [John] So it's operational. >> [Saar] It's operational stuff. >> Yeah >> [Saar] They're modifying the system so that they can be ready to work when you get to that point. On the radio side, I think the important thing to understand is like you said exactly, there's multiple use cases for 5G. The most interesting and immediate one, potentially is to use wireless to compete against cable. Which is fixed wireless access. You know, there, the telecos for years have wanted to do it, there was this whole discussion about fiber, then it turned out fiber's expensive. >> [John] Yeah, you've got to trench it, you've got to provision it to your home, you've got to roll a truck. >> Took Google a few years to figure that out, but even for Google, it's expensive. >> [John] People who have done that said you're crazy, but Google's has had so many deep pockets and Facebook does the same thing with their kind of R&D projects. >> They figured it out, there are technologies, millimeter wave is a bit hard because it doesn't go through walls, but I think when we talk about capacities, it's not for your mobile phone, it's for other things, it's mostly for fixed wireless access. There's a whole discussion about cars, I personally, because we're talking about opinions here, I don't understand the problem so much because the reality is the car's going to be a mobile data center. So 90 percent of the data that's generated by the car will be kept in the car and the car will be sending analytics and metrics up so it doesn't need gigabits. It's not like every time you turn you need to get it an instruction. Maybe that's what the network guys want you to believe because then you need like zero latency. But you don't need that, it's much easier to invest in a better system in the car. So the car's not going to figure out... >> [John] The car is a computer, it's not a peripheral. >> Yeah, it's a peripheral. >> [John] It's a data center to your point. >> [Saar] It's a full data center. It's the edge that computes, so I don't think that's an issue, I think the car will need coverage and so forth. >> But that's a different thing, cars are great examples so let's take on this one. 'Cause this is a perfect mental model. A car is going to have all this capacity like a big computer >> [Saar] It's a data center. >> [John] Or a data center. >> [Saar] A mini data center. >> A lot of things, a lot of instrumentation, a lot of software, glue. >> [Saar] It's going to have 10 computers, big systems, it's like a little data center. >> But it also moves fast, so it's a true mobile data center. So it needs mobility. So mobility has trade-offs, right, with the wireless piece at least. Depends on how you're uploading. >> Again, it depends on the capacity. Mobility has certain elements when you get into Doppler Effect and so on. It's always a capacity trade off. All of you have talked on your cell phone or used data on your cell phone in your plane, we know this. When the plane's landing, that's 150 miles an hour when the plane lands, okay, and it works pretty well. >> We all cheat, don't turn on your cell phones, we're landing. >> [Saar] Yeah, exactly. >> We've all done it. >> So again, if you want to run a gigabit, it's a problem, if you want to run less it's not such a big deal if a car's going 60 miles an hour. So it depends. Now if you define the use cases, I need a gigabit for every car, there's a million cars, that's a problem. If you define the use case, as something else it's not a big problem. There is a problem though, and I think that is something that the 5G is trying to address in terms of more on the backend of density. >> Density in terms of signal, or density in terms of... >> In terms of support, so for example, the one place you can never use a cell phone is in a conference, because too many people are trying to get on at the same time. It's a statistical model. >> [John] A-station issues. >> It breaks, and so with a car also, you're going to have high density because if you have a traffic jam, all these cars are talking or receiving, so that's a bigger issue. And 5G does talk about that as well, but that's a bigger issue than pure capacity. Pure capacity, great, I'll give you this much megahertz... >> [John] I agree with that. >> You can do that on WiFi today. >> [John] I totally agree with that. So let's take a step back I want to get a little color on Mobile World Congress. Talk about what's going on right now. So it's dinner, people at parties, what goes on? People want to always ask me, John what always happens? First of all, Barcelona is a great city as you know, we've been there together for some HP events, as well as for Mobile World Congress. What's happening, you always make the comment it's a Biz Dev show which means it's business development going on. All the top executives go there, deals are being cut, but it's also a large trade show as you will for mobility. >> I think like you said, from my experience, the biggest value of Mobile World Congress is not the show itself, with all due respect to the show, it's the fact that everybody and anybody who is somebody is there, that's why we're not there. So you can meet people. And so if you want to meet a bunch of people, teleco leaders and so forth, that's what you do. This is the place. You all say, okay, we'll meet at Mobile World Congress. So like for example, when I was down there I would basically go back to back from in the morning until 10 at night, in meetings, dinners, whatever with CEOs of various telecos or CEOs of partners and so on. Everybody's there, and I never actually got to see the show because I never got out of a meeting. And most of what happens there is that. That's amazing because again, everybody's there. >> [John] There's a huge ecosystem involved. Talk about that ecosystem because this is the dynamic. And first of all, we don't have to go there because we've got theCube here so we're there virtually, digitally, and that's what we do now. This is great, in the studio, we save ourselves the three day flight to go to Barcelona. It is crazy there, but it is about the community there, because you have that opportunity to get the feedback, do deals. >> [Saar] A lot of deals around there. >> [John] A lot of deals happening, also feedback, trying to connect the dots and having the right product strategies. What are some of the things that you think is happening right now from a business standpoint in these meetings, right now? Are people still scratching their heads on over the top, is it the classic problems, what's the current state of the union? >> Well, you saw Vimpel Com change their name to some other thing, so I think what you're seeing right now, is there's still sort of multiple dynamics going on. One dynamic is there's people maneuvering around how 5G ends up closing and there was some discussions about that, there was some release done about hey we should speed it up and then Enrique said no this is silly. So there are some discussions, there is some maneuvering going on like any time when you're doing a spec, when does it freeze, when does it not freeze? Some of the telecos want this, and so forth. That's sort of in the background going on. They're still trying to figure out, you know, business model is still an issue. The people are experimenting and you're going to see a lot of that, experimenting with apps, experimenting with these monetization strategies. So there's a lot of that going on, trying to figure out, okay, how do we monetize the network in a better fashion? >> What do you think the best path is from your perspective? Just putting your industry hat on, if you had to kind of lay down some epic commentary to the teleco bosses, hey you got to cannibalize your own, get out in front, what would you advise them in terms of what to get out in front of, what to double down on? >> I think some of them are actually doing this, but I think first of all, I think they should forget about worrying about the technology. I mean, technology is very important, we need to take care of that, but really, they need to know what are they good at? What are they strong at? So their strong at a customer relationship, they have customers that they quote unquote have as partners, those customers, and they're very strong so what can you do with that partnership as opposed to all kinds of other random stuff. Now, if you look at what they're doing, they're doing different things. Some of them are like buying different media companies, so there's no easy path, but they're going to have to use their strength as opposed to try to become somebody they're not. They're not going to become Google, they're not going to become Amazon, they're not going to become one of those guys. They do need to become more cloudified just to be efficient, but that's because that's sort of the... ...just to play, you have to pay that card, but they're not going to be better than the existing, but they do have a very strong relationship with customers, they could probably sell them more things if they focus on good customer service. Customers are happy to work with them if they get a good deal and a frictionless environment. So, I would certainly encourage all of them, and I know many of them are focused on this, to improve your frictionless interaction for the customer. If the customer has a frictionless interaction and gets a good deal, they'll do business with them. >> Are you worried about the teleco's customer relationship when they have this decoupling trend kind of happening where the consumers want to take their phone or device and uncouple it from the network and just add more mobility across networks. So if there's better connectivity, I could be able to hop between Verizon, AT&T, whoever, that seems to be something that a lot of folks technically are saying from an architectural standpoint, having that personal centric view versus a network centric tie-in. Is that on the radar at all? Or is that still kind of in a way, fantasy? >> It's like people are still using AOL, right? >> [John] Who? Who? (laughing) >> They voted for Trump then, huh? >> I'm not going there right now, we can discuss that later. The point is, the primary area where there's problems in that area is roaming. And there's a lot of discussion about roaming. 55 or 60 percent of people turn off data when they go overseas because the roaming fares are so incredibly expensive which makes no sense. Why would I have a longer cost because I happen to have an AT&T contract in Europe, I'm not using more data than somebody in Europe and it's going through the backend of the internet anyways. So I think there... >> [John] It's a great way to jack the user with more fees. >> But that's not sustainable. >> Of course. >> I think there, you're going to see pressure of people and there's some companies who provide apps, and cards and sim cards, but there's now soft ways of doing it, there you're going to see pressure and I think eventually that will go the way of the messaging, where... >> [John] Like WhatsApp >> Yeah, they'll come up with something that will allow you to have data at a much cheaper rate, I don't know, does it make sense to switch carriers in the local market if you have a good price? I mean, what's the point? So again it all comes back to, do they give you a frictionless service? If they give you a frictionless service that is at reasonable cost, then you'll use it. So you've got to look at places... ...where their going to have people leave them is where they don't do that. And there are places they don't do that, roaming is one of those places. >> [John] So I've got to ask you about IOT, obviously it's the hottest trend, AI's more of the mental model that people get their arms around, they see virtual reality, augmented reality, they call that AI, it's more of a mental model, it's really not AI, but IOT is really where the action is. People see networks, where devices as you mention are coming on and off, you just don't provision those as static devices. They're very dynamic. Your take on the IOT market, what's your view on that? Because a lot of action happening there. >> I've been involved in IOT and different people have different names for what T means, I won't go there here. >> [John] T and P, things and people. Let it be watch... >> [Saar] Well T could mean things, it could mean other things too, but the point is, IOT ...I was working in a company that was doing IOT when we called machine to machine, if we had called it IOT, it would have been better. The point is IOT is, this is extremely fragmented, it's a super super fragmented market. And it has different ecosystems. The more complex part of IOT is not the front end, it's the backend of how do you manage devices how do you tie them to some app, how do you configure them, provision them? >> [John] 'Cause of the backend, infrastructures are different. Some are IT based... >> Think about it, you've got all these devices how do you upgrade them? How do you make sure they don't start a denial of service attack on their own? How do you provision them, how do you manage their life cycle? HPE has some product in that area, a global connectivity platform, but other people as well. So, this is a bigger problem. The backend is a much bigger problem than the front end. What's the problem? Hypothetically, I can stick a SIM card into anything and it's now a device. Most of these things do not have a high bandwidth. Low bandwidth coverage is pretty good in urban centers, not if you go to Utah, but other places. So, the biggest problem is backend. Now obviously there's a lot of advancements that can be done on the front end too, because of power issues. The biggest problem with IOT is depending what you want, you have a power issue. For example, we used to do this back in the day, you built these little devices, you stick them on containers, and then you can find out where the container is at any given moment. That's great, but how long does this thing last? I think IOT is a very big thing that's happening, I think most of the problem in IOT is not in the front end, it's in the back. >> [John] Yeah, I would agree with that. Also it allows you to get more data too. Another problem is storing up more data which is security, data, IT management, basic stuff. >> [Saar] Very basic stuff, and that stuff is hard to fix because again usually IOT is not a green field that are going to connect to something that exists. You're just augmenting it with IOT like if it's a power meter or something so now you have this existing ecosystem that has to interact with something that is brand new and so there are various companies who build interfaces and how to solve it, there's management issues. But I think IOT is real. >> [John] So let's talk about cloud. So cloud you also had your hand in at HP as well, you had a wireless background, the folks might not know that, going back before then. The cloud really is an opportunity, we see that with Amazon and then Microsoft's now got their stock up and so obviously cloud, it's a bigger game, it's hybrid, it's happening and then you have all these other fringe things developing around the mobility piece. How is the cloud changing the Mobile World Congress game? Because now it's a show that kind of blends. It feels like CES on one hand, it feels like Cloud World on another. It feels like IOT and teleco world, and all these things are kind of in a melting pot. >> Well I think to me, when I look at Mobile World Congress, I think of okay, it's teleco world, really because whatever the telecos happen to be doing is what the show is about, right? If you think about the telecos, we're talking about companies that have a capital like I think AT&T spends like 20 billion dollars a year or something in that range. We're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars of capital budget and whatever those folks are interested in is what shows up in that show. >> [John] So it's still a Teleco show dominant, you don't see that changing at all? >> No, but what teleco is, is changing, right? I mean they have broadcast, so what I'm saying is whatever the telecos are interested in is what shows up in that show. Drones, cars, telecos have their hands in all these things. And that's why it shows up in the show. Because ultimately the show is about the telecom space and the primary players. If you go down there, the booths that are as big as a country club, you know the Ericssons and so forth, it's a teleco show and people who want to be relevant like Intel as they want to be more relevant in wireless is building a bigger and bigger booth over there. But what teleco is really is about connecting things and as there's more things to connect, telecos get involved in other things. If they see a business opportunity, for example drones, lets go back to talk about that because there's a whole drone day and all this other stuff there. I mean drones need higher... ...I don't think they need so much bandwidth although it depends what kind of video you want to do. But they do need reliable connectivity. It's something useful, right? And today, you could argue connectivity it's not super reliable, it's pretty reliable, but we all have dropped calls every five minutes, right? I mean if a drone drops a call, that may not be that easy. There's use cases around these things >> [John] And back to your earlier point, I think this is the most important for the folks to listen to and hone in on is that there's a use case in every corner depending on the view of the market. Drones is one. Take virtual reality, augmented reality, that's another. IT, enterprises connecting, entertainment over the top, smart cities, these are all kind of nuanced areas. >> But when people want to understand, separate the hype from the non-hype, see if you can understand the use case. If you can't understand the use case or if the use case seems out there, then the technology is probably out there. Technology on it's own is fascinating, but if there's no use case that makes sense right here right now like again, for example, if I got a gigabit to my phone right now, would it make a difference in my life? An extra 20 hours of battery life would make a difference in my life more than a gigabit. >> That's a good point, right now battery life is more important than connectivity, but as the network transformation which is a big buzz word for this show is coming to the surface, that's an end to end architecture with software. So we think about traversing cloud, software, delivering of apps and services that's different. Now the apps have more headroom in that case, but then to your point, the backend's got to be... ...under the hood has to be smarter. Or is network transformation not yet there? >> Well I think what's happened is that the OTT, the OTTs started developing 20 years later, and surprise surprise, when you develop 20 years later, you have advantages, doesn't matter who you are, so their backend is a much further generation than the teleco's backend and so that's why when you connect to OTT services, it's consumer experience, it feels seamless and so forth, when you connect to the telecos backend, it's sort of a mismatch. And so they need to sort of fix that and that's part of the NFV transformation they're working on and again it's not because they had any limitations its because they had existing stuff, it's much easier to build from scratch. >> Final comment on Mobile World Congress this year, and outlook for the next year, your thoughts? >> We need to parse out what actually comes out of there. It's still early, I think 5G, 5Gs going to be what people are going to talk about, this is the thing. It means multiple things, but that's because the entire teleco world, if you think about it, if you look at the revenue of the suppliers and so forth who have been in a holding pattern ever since 4G sort of, in China, they finished 4G deployment and so the next big capital spending is going to be 5G, and so you're going to see the providers push anything to get that going. That's just the bottom line. >> Great. Saar Gallai, final comment, what are you working on now? Obviously we got to know you at a personal level with HPE, I've seen your roles, and the last one was really handling that teleco business which you grew up from a handful of people to hundreds of people, thousands of people. You're a land grabber, kingdom builder, empire builder. What are you up to now, what are you looking at for opportunity? I know you're doing some investing, you have some independent boards, what's your world like now here in Silicon Valley, what's your activities look like, and what's your thoughts on the valley in general and entrepreneurship and your activities? >> First of all, what I'm doing, the good news is I'm sitting here in Silicon Valley and so I'm very busy doing various interactions with bbcs, with startups, consulting, looking at different businesses, there's so much interesting things going on. Every morning you can look at new things that people bring over. Whether they're teleco related or not teleco related. Just some amazing things going on. Something from new wireless protocols to cloudification and so on, and I also sit on a few boards so I'm spending a lot of time doing that, looking at different things. >> [John] What's exciting for you right now? What's getting you jazzed up? >> There's so many different things, like I said, I think... >> [John] What's the coolest thing? >> The coolest things, some of the most cool things are.. >> [John] Confidential? >> Yeah, stealthy, I would say. I'm looking at some wireless stuff that's pretty revolutionary that I think could be new protocols that sort of change the whole dynamic of how wireless works, that's pretty interesting. And then I'm looking at some other things that are just how you apply cloud to different problems in the world. If you look at the cloud paradigm, it's existed for a fair amount of time now, but although we talk about it all day, most of the things in the world, most of the apps, most of the problem sets are not leveraging any in the cloud. They're still at best using >> [John] Recycled IT. >> Recycled IT, or sometimes even Windows 98 for all you know, right? In Africa, Africa went to wireless directly, they never did wired. So there may be a lot of industries that never go from Windows to proper data centers. They just go straight from basic Windows directly to the cloud. There's lots of opportunities that are interesting there. I'm looking at a few CEO options. But it's very exciting, there's so much going on. There's just so many things happening. >> [John] Well let's get into that tomorrow, you're going to come by tomorrow at 4:30, folks watching tomorrow at 4:30 Pacific Time, Saar will be back in the studio, we're going to dig in to the entrepreneurial landscapes, I think one of the things that you highlighted that we were talking about earlier is that sometimes you have technology looking for a problem, and the reality is that most of the game changing opportunities come out of left field that no one sees, these are the revolutionary game changers, the new technology, the hard stuff, not just some app that gets built, it's the real hardcore tech that could be applied to some of these real problems. And I think that's going to be the key. Saar Gallai here inside the studio, breaking down Mobile World Congress with theCube here in Palo Alto covering what's happening in Barcelona. We got some still phone-ins, late night in Barcelona, we're going to make those shortly, be right back with more coverage after this short break. (soft music)

>> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Welcome back, everyone. We're here live in Palo Alto for SiliconANGLE Media's theCUBE's new studio, 4500 square feet in Palo Alto. Just moved in less than a month ago, and we're bringing you all the in-studio coverage of what's going on in Barcelona, Spain at Mobile World Congress. This is day two of two days of coverage. Here in the studio we're bringing people in that's in Silicon Valley into the studio, experts, entrepreneurs, venture capitalist investors, angel investors, and of course, analysts here from our own team, and we have Peter Burris with me here. And we're covering all the action. Of course, we have reporters and analysts and friends on the ground doing call-ins in Barcelona, bringing you all the action, and really, bringing the big story that's not being told, which is AI, IOT, and cloud-ready, cloud-native action is happening. This is the disruptor, the calm before the storm as we were saying earlier yesterday. Peter Burris, great to see you. We were talking yesterday morning on the kickoff, let's take that to the next level. Cloud-native, IOT, really the big story that's not being told at Mobile World Congress this year, mainly because it's just in everyone's face right now, and people are making sense of it. Your thoughts on this as you are looking at the research, looking at the marketplace, this is reality. The IOT is real. >> Oh, it's very much real, John. Let's start with why cloud and mobile are so important together. In many respects, the thing that made the cloud real is mobility because the minute that you don't know where your device is going to connect, where the termination point's going to be, then you don't want to have to control and own that network. And so in many respects, the whole concept of mobility catalyzed the need for the cloud because you didn't want to have to utilize a, you didn't want to have to build your own network to support people as they moved around. So the cloud as a front end, or as a set of capabilities that supports mobility is really crucial to this whole concept, and it's somewhat surprising that it's not more closely tied together at Mobile World Congress. But the most important thing that we could talk about obviously is that IOT is going to have a major impact on all kinds of different factors. It's going to have a major impact on the devices that are manufactured, it's going to have a major impact on what the scale efficiencies that you have in manufacturing, the nature of the sensors, the nature of microprocessors, how much memory gets put on stuff, how much flash memory is going to be manufactured over the next decade. All these things are going to have a significant impact on the concept of mobility and what it means and the networks it provided over the course of the next 10 years. >> Peter, I want to bring up something that you brought up yesterday, and I think this is important, that's why I wanted to do a real drill down on what seems to be a major paradigm shift and inflection point. We've been talking about autonomous vehicles, media entertainment, smart cities, smart homes. Those are all the sexy demos at Mobile World Congress. But the real change, as pointed out by Val Bercovici who just came in as CTO is that the sea change underneath it, and you pointed out yesterday the convergence between enterprise and consumers coming together is that this internet of things and people, IOTP, or IOTNP, 'cause things can be sensors and devices, are changing it, and what's obvious to us and now coming out of Mobile World Congress as it's just starting to be seen by the mainstream press and media and community is that the TelCos aren't used to dealing with rapidly provisioning things. They're used to a subscriber who buys a phone, dials up a service, gets provisioned and connected, and they have a number, and then they try to connect to the base station and get on the internet. That's simple, and those connections we all know fail, but now imagine that multiplied by millions and millions of devices that are going to be turned on and connected. This is a scale problem, this is a network problem, this is a physics problem. >> Well, it's a physics problem-- >> Explain your theory on this. >> Yeah, it's a physics problem at a very, very base level. Just talking about the TelCos for a second. You're absolutely right, John. We're talking about, when we talk about the scale problem in the TelCos, it's not that they don't know what to do with their networks, it's not that they don't know how to connect devices to the networks. They just don't know how to provide it at a service level. It's going to be demanded by the scale of the devices moving into and out of networks as we think about IOT and P, the TelCos have historically thought about, they've thought about the assets that they have in place, the rates that they charge for those assets, the returns they generate, the tariff rules they work with with governments around the globe. They tend to focus on, good or bad, 10, 20-year time horizons. >> And their P is phone, not people. >> That's right, their P is absolutely. Their P is phone, and I can, and you were probably around. I can remember when you could not buy a phone that didn't have, on a particular company's network, you still can't buy a phone on a network today. You buying a mobile phone and it goes, it's associated with-- >> You're buying a carrier. >> That's right, that's exactly right. And that's how TelCos want to work. Now, they're hoping that eventually they're going to find themselves in the position to be able to spin up devices very quickly, but the reality is that's not how provisioning works in the real world. It's one of the reasons why TelCos continue to get their lunches eaten by companies that are building out their own networks and doing a much better job of rapid provisioning. >> You and I were talking last night off-camera about this notion of IOT and P, and of course, we all believe in and we're passionate about it, but you made a comment that was interesting. It was that we're going to look back at this time in history as a moment where before and after kind of, before Christ, after Christ, however you want to look at it. I mean, there's always that AD, BC kind of thing going on where before, I always call it before Steve Jobs and iPhone. Now it's going to a whole other level with the societal changes from little things, like we had a guest on talking about waste disposal efficiency. Traffic light management, healthcare, every single digital service. NTT Docomo's investor was on yesterday. She was talking about investing in services and bringing AI as a service, not network services, lifestyle services. What do you mean by that, that this is going to be something that we're going to look back 50 years from now and say this was the moment? Can you expand your? >> Yeah, absolutely, John, and it's really actually pretty simple. If you take a look at how executives are starting to think, what's happening is for the first time, we're really starting to look at data as an asset. That's a big question, but let me try to break it down and be a little bit more concise about what I mean by that. When we think about IOT and P, we're thinking about the idea that we can distribute enormous, billions of devices that are going to be sources of data. They're going to be going into the analog world, put into the analog world, and they're going to take analog signals and turn them into, and transduce them into digital signals. Once those signals become digital, then they hit big data, they hit AI, they hit machine learning. That's what's catalyzing a lot of the social concerns about, well, what does it mean for machines to be more autonomous, to take more responsibility? What's going to happen with business accountability when business are increasingly relying on machines that quote, "think." When we think about these big societal changes, we're talking about the ability that IOT's providing, IOT and P is providing, that for the first time how we're going to capture enormous net-new data, how we're going to process that enormous net-new data, and then ultimately, what we call systems of enaction, how we're going to enact specific events back in the real world as a consequence of what machines say is the right thing to do. That is a demarcation point. It moves from a machine being regarded as a tool, and almost exclusively as a tool, something that performs work better but having that work be very well described and very well articulated and the concept clear to something that might actually introduce new work or do work differently. Take responsibility for how it performs work. That's a major sea change. And so when we say that it's going to be, we'll look back and say, "It was before this time "and after this time," it's because we are now in the position to economically be able to gather these streams of data, process them in ways that are unprecedented, and then have the results of that processing enact in unpredictable ways, and that's a major change. >> I don't know if we can talk about some of your research that's coming out, I dunno, can we touch on some of the points? This has yet to be released research from the Wikibon team headed up by Peter with SiliconANGLE Media. I want to just point out, 'cause I find this interesting, you say that there's a architectural decision point within IOTP, a new phrase, hashtag IOTP if you're interested in working with us, just hit us up at Twitter. But there's really four points you point, physics, the law, legal, of course, everything's legal. Physics, legal, economical, economics, and then, authority. >> Right. >> What do you mean by those four? Can you just take us through conceptually these are dimensions, they interplay, are they dependencies, are they interdependent, are they all intertwined? What's the rationale behind these architectural forces? >> When people think about information systems historically, they've been relatively well circumscribed. So, I have an employee that I'm going to provide a service to from a network that I control that has latency requirements and aren't that big a problem because at the end of the day a human being doesn't operate at nanosecond kind of levels, and I got a machine that's mine, and I own running an application that I've licensed. That is a very, very tightly bound unit. When we start introducing IOTP and some of these other things, now we're talking about emergent behaviors that might be far away that we don't control, we're working with partners, et cetera, and the basic architectural challenge of thinking about what do we have to do to get a handle on the requirements of the processing, 'cause at the end of the day these things are still computers, and they still have operational characteristics that have to be accommodated. We think that there's going to be four factors that are going to influence how what we call the edge zone expands or compresses based on the work that needs to be conducted. One is physics. You're not going to go faster than the speed of light, and in fact, generally speaking, if you look at the distance that you have to travel, you're going to be outside the automation zone. You're going to be outside the automation zone if light has to travel, at best, you're going to be about a 10th of the speed of light, so if your automation zone, if you want your automation zone to be about 100 miles, then it means that from there and back with the speed of light you're not going to be able to automate anything that takes longer than that, just for example. Physics is one. >> Physics and wireless is a great example of physics. >> Wireless is, yeah. >> And moving packets around. >> None of this stuff works without physics, right. The second one is legal, that the reality is is that while the laws of physics are relatively immutable as far as we know, there are also government regulations that are what they are, and that could include privacy, it can include requirements for disclosing things, and so, those also, borders are going to have an impact on this notion of automation zones, or edge zones as we call them. Economics is another one. It costs money to move data from point A to point B, and the question is how much data's going to move. A lot of people think that everything's going to go up to the cloud, it's going to be processed up there, and then some instruction's going to come down for automation. That's probably not the way it's going to work. Our findings are suggesting-- >> Not only is it the cost of data, I would argue that also the product design criteria will be impacted economically on that decision point. >> Absolutely. But that's based on how much does it cost to move the data around. The operational characteristics of a product or service are fundamentally, a digital product or service, are fundamentally tied to the cost of moving data. We think that 95-plus percent of the data's actually going to stay in the edge. And the last one is authority, and we kind of touched upon this a second ago in that we're now suggesting that machines are going to take actions without human intervention. Not just actions, but they're actually going to change the scope and nature of the actions that are going to be taken. What does that mean? What does it mean for a machine to act on behalf of a brand? Or on behalf of a person? People use a simple explanation, "Does the autonomous car take out the old lady "or the cub scouts if you got a problem? "Or does it do something else?" It's those kinds of things that we don't know the answer to. A lot of the questions of authority and how we distribute authority and how we codify authority and how we track authority is going to have a major impact on what limits to behavior we put on these things. >> There's also the security angle alone is another one, too, just like basic stuff. These are interesting. And you see these architectural forces. Are you calling them forces, factors, variables? >> Just factors simply because the concept of factor, or you can call it constraints, is the idea that your decision has to factor these things, so we're just calling 'em factors right now. >> Alright, so let's step back now, and look at some of the commentary from this week in Mobile World Congress and our interviews here in theCUBE as well as the remotes. Certainly the hallway conversation is the business model of the TelCos. Saar Gillia who was on yesterday brought up a point of, hey, where's the use cases? Show me the use case, and then I'll say yes. And it's this too complicated, he was not seeing the use cases, and he was saying, "I'd prefer more battery life than "more one gigabit wireless right now" given that's his current situation. The balancing of where to get started seems to be the number one theme. What do I do next, what's the first step? Will the bridge collapse that I'm trying to cross to this future? Or I can't see the other side? Is the world flat or round? These are kind of more personal feelings that people have around taking that leap of faith into this new world? How do you advise and package that together and assimilate that? I mean, do you, how should people look at that? >> I think it's a great question, and I wasn't part of the conversation yesterday, but let's look at that for example. Today, if you're using your phone, you effectively have a relatively simple number of sensors in your phone, relatively simple number of transducers, right. You have a chip that turns your analog voice into a digital signal, so there's that in there. You have some neat stuff that presents the screens, so there's that in there. You have a microphone, et cetera, that kind of stuff, but when we start thinking about 5G and what networking could become, as we talked about yesterday, it's not so much the absolute bandwidth speeds, and it certainly is not going to have any impact on latency for the most part. It really is the number of devices that you can support at one time. It allows for greater density of sources. Now, without looking at 5G, we can talk about a phone being able to support not just a few generators, or a few sources of data on that phone, but maybe dozens, so maybe things that, you know, the whole concept of wearables. Again, do I want to get involved in the use case? No, you and I are sitting here being analysts, and that's not our business. But are there going to be use cases for more wearable technology? Well, if you're sick, if you have a chronic disease, just for example, yeah, that's a use case. I could see people actually living much higher quality lives because they can support more sensors as a result of 5G, with greater security. Again, we go to the autonomous car. There's going to be a lot of sensors in an autonomous car. Most of them are going to operate locally, but having said that, it might be nice if we could actually have a very, very fast low-cost network with inside the car itself to handle a lot of that work. I think we've, human beings, developers, have always found new use cases when given more compute, more memory, and more networking. I don't think that's going to change. I think we're going to see more of that. >> Peter, what's your thoughts, if you had to summarize and encapsulate it into a narrative, Mobile World Congress 2017, now looking back at day two kind of coming to a close, seeing what's out there, how do you look at that? How would you tell someone here is the story of Mobile World Congress? Tell that story. >> To me, John, having looked at the stuff come over the transom and you know, a lot of new devices being talked about and generating a little bit of excitement, a lot of new this and a little bit of excitement, I think that the question for me is are we moving into a period where integration's going to matter again? And I think in many respects that's going to be kind of the subtext of what's coming out of Mobile World Congress. Is it good enough to have the best of breed device and this and that, with a software stack that's doing this and that? Or is there going to be more value to the enterprise and ultimately to the consumer by taking more of an end-to-end perspective? Apple from a consumer and an experience standpoint has done that and has, what is it? They're worth $150 billion more than any other company on the planet right now or something crazy like that? Don't quote me on that, but I think that's what somebody told me. >> Trillions of dollars in cash overseas, for sure. >> Yeah, so it's that notion of are we moving back into a world where integration is going to matter because we're going through a period of significant discontinuity. >> Integration is a great point, 'cause I see that, I do see that as a thing, and bring the Apple example. Apple, the way they develop might be different than say, what we see in an open source, for instance. If you look at what Intel's doing, and I look at Intel as a bellwether, and this is from my perspective, because they have such a huge long game in play, they have been the leader in my opinion in the tech industry playing the long game, and they have to because they make chips. And they're looking at the 5G as an ecosystem play, and they're admitting and saying it's not one vendor. They don't say take village, but they're basically saying it takes a village to rise all the tide or float all the boats, if you will. If you look at what Intel's doing, they're essentially saying that it's an integration game through their own moves, which is ecosystem, playing well together. Now, you could fight for best of breed on point solutions, whether it's a Snapdragon Qualcom, or Intel processor on the device. At the end of the day, it's, as we were saying, network function virtualization to make those dynamic networks work seem to be the key. To play in that, if as a society globally, to your four factors, it has to be an integration game. No one company can do those factors. >> You're absolutely right. Here's how I would say it to put a slightly different twist on it. The tech industry has moved from a product orientation to a service orientation, or is moving from a product orientation to a service orientation, from an orientation where we focus on what's the intrinsic value of what we're buying to what's the utility of what we're using. From a "Hey, let's a put a spend a lot of money upfront "and maybe we'll get to some point of time in the future "where it's valuable" to a, "Let's only pay for what we got." It's difficult to imagine the tech industry moving successfully into that service orientation without taking more of an integration approach to it. Certainly that's what Amazon's trying to do or AWS is trying to do, that's what Google is trying to do, that's what all the companies that are trying to move infrastructure into the cloud are trying to do, so I think that this is a general issue. If we're moving to a service orientation, we have to start taking the integration view on things. >> Awesome, great, Peter. You're watching theCUBE. This is SiliconANGLE Media, Inc., and SiliconANGLE Media, Inc. comprises of siliconangle.com, led by Rob Hof, that's our publishing journalism, wikibon.com led by Peter Burris and research, and theCUBE, our internet TV led by Jeff Frick, and of course CrowdChat is the data brand and the data science, and we love bringing you this great content. Pete, I'll give you quick plug because I know that you've been doing a ton of work building out the research team at Wikibon and expanding the work behind the firewall, it's a paid subscription. Some premium that we see on siliconangle.com for the most part. A great body of work on the research. I want to congratulate you, but give you an opportunity to share with the folks who are watching what's going on with research and some of the things that you're working on and why they should potentially reach out to Wikibon. >> Yeah, so we're focused on a couple of relatively simple things. We're not a huge team, so we tend to focus less on products, again, the idea of let's take a look at the intrinsic value of products, and we focus more on the impacts. What does it mean to get utility out of things? How do you get utility out of whatever you buy? The other thing we focus on is disruption, and we talked a lot about what are the disrupting factors. IOT, big data, and what we call the systems of enaction, all supported by significant changing infrastructure and new digital business models. So, it's kind of a combination of those five things that we are focusing our time and attention on. Ultimately, we want to be in a position to help our clients make decisions that improve the value of their business by better utilizing data through these digital models, digital business models that require these technology changes to go. >> Great, and it also helped show Mobile World Congress is about cloud-ready. You had a great report on Amazon we posted on siliconangle.com. What was the summary, bottom line that big body of work you did about Amazon that the headline was, "How big can Amazon be?" What was the key findings from your big assembled report on Amazon Web Service? >> The big finding is Amazon's going to get big, but the cloud's also going to get big, and we think that Amazon, the simple finding is, we think Amazon's going to hold share. That may not sound like much, but for the most part, most of the value's going to go into SaaS, most of the value's going to go into the use cases associated with stuff. That's where a lot of the money's going to go. Amazon holding share, given that they're one of the, in many respects, they created this whole thing, is actually a pretty stunning statement. And it all started, John, because when we went and we looked at our semi-annual update to what's going on in the cloud marketplace, the question that kept coming to us was, okay, so we think it's going to go this fast. Well, what's Amazon going to do with that? What's it going to mean to Amazon? How is Amazon's growth going to affect these things? And so, we started with that answer. We built our models and talked to a lot of users, built our scenarios, so we think that Amazon's going to continue to grow very fast, we think it's going to be a $40 billion company, $40 billion-plus company >> John: In revenue. >> In revenue, AWS. >> John: Not Amazon. >> Not Amazon, Amazon's a totally different beast. We'll see what Amazon does. But AWS will be about a $40-plus billion company in four or five years, and still have about eight-plus percent market share in the entire-- >> And Microsoft has changed their game, they're coming right after Amazon. >> Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, Google, and when you start talk internationally, Ali Baba, there's going to be a dozen companies that create enormous businesses. >> And there are companies that don't have a cloud that are late to the game and might not have a seat when the music stops in the old musical chair analogy, so certainly we know who they are. >> You know, what's going to happen to the TelCos? Good question. >> The world, we live in very exciting times as the saying goes. Peter Burris, great to have you, great commentary. Love what you're doing, I think the research around IOT and the edge is a fundamental architectural shift. You've got the four forces laid out. Congratulations, looking forward to doing more where there's totally going to be a game-changer. This will impact everything that we live, and it'll make the autonomous vehicles and the drones and the AI and smart cities a reality. Thanks for the commentary. More Mobile World Congress coverage here in Palo Alto, breaking it all down. We've got a couple late night call-ins, so stay with us. Hopefully, folks will be sauced up a bit, and maybe share some of the news and breaking stories from the hallway. More from theCUBE after this short break. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley. It's The Cube. Covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay welcome back everyone. We're here live in Palo Alto for The Cube's special broadcast presentation and coverage of Mobile World Congress. Which is happening in Barcelona, Spain. I'm John Furrier here with The Cube. And of course we're covering it here in Palo Alto. Bringing in experts and friends who have been following all the action. As well as have commentary and opinion on what's happening. We're going to roll up the news. It's the end of the day in Barcelona. We're just getting our sea legs here for day two of 8AM to 6PM coverage inside The Cube. And of course we want to break down the content. Our next guest is Val Bercovici who is the CTO at Solify also a governing board member of the CNCA the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Which was CubeCom which is now part of the Linux Foundation. Which if you know The Cube you know we've been covering that like a blanket. All these shows, The Cube has been there. This is in the world of Dockercon et cetera et cetera. Val, a CTO, 19-year veteran at NetApp of course knows the stories business, knows the converge infrastructure, know the Cloud. Val great to see you thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me back on after all these years. >> Yeah I mean it's great to have you on. We see each other at some of the parties, at Georgianna's place in particular. Georgianna brings all the storage and Cloud together but you and I had conversations a few years ago about where Cloud was going. And you can almost kind of connect the dots. Not to pat ourselves on the back, but I think we were right that the cloud was what we thought it would be. And probably more. For me I think I underestimated certainly the Amazon impact. >> Me too. >> But you look at what's happening in Mobile World Congress. You have a bi-polar show. You have a device show. Rah-rah look at the fancy devices. And the other show you have a Telco show that's trying to figure out their future. And that's interesting because the Telco's power the big networks that everyone's using the devices for. So you have a consumer market. But the real conversation is 5G IoT. You have a collision course of enterprise issues, enterprise data center, enterprise technology, colliding with a Telco infrastructure, AKA mobile. Head on. So it's not just more wireless. 5G's certainly the story we talked to folks like Intel and others around that but you have essentially all these core problems that are going to scale up this next generation use cases, are enterprise-like. This is your wheelhouse. So are you looking at this saying hm I've seen this movie before. What's your thoughts? >> I actually haven't. And that's what's so exciting right. As you said, there's so much innovation happening. For me probably the big story is what's not in the headlines at Mobile World Congress. Which is the back office work to support a 5G rollout. And I've had a lot of experience particularly on the side most recently. Speaking with all the big Telecos globally, and the implementations. Now what's interesting is they're all going through a gen two, or a re-architecture right now. A lot of first-generation MFE was done based on tradition or legacy now clad architecture which very VM based. And all of them are now architecting and implementing microservices based implementations. And a driver for that is just the explosion that 5G will enable in terms of connectivity between devices. So the least interesting stat to me is how fast I can download a movie off of 5G. The most interesting is how many hundreds of thousands or millions of devices within my domain are going to be communicating with each other on 5G. >> We had Saar Gillai who's going to come back today. He's also a guest, former HPer. He built their communications group while at NFE. I'd like it if he was commenting on the same thing, he made a point I want to bring up which is I don't really need more gigabit data, I want more battery life. So he's kind of being a pedestrian but that really is kind of the consumer issue. You're pointing about things that are going to be harder to do. In NFE you mention one of them. Can you explain the NFE's current situation? Also we've been doing a lot of the open stag all the open shows since it started. That has become kind of a Telco, NFE storage show as well. >> Val: Absolutely. >> So what is the real issue with NFE and why is it important and relevant to the service providers right now? >> So if you take a look at all the services we depend on on our phones nowadays. There's obviously the basic connectivity. There's additional services around location mapping for GPS, related services on top of that in terms of the collaborative apps that we use and depend on every day. Sometimes on S3 which is not always available as we're reporting right now. There's a lot of layers there. And from an NFV perspective from a back end data center perspective. Everything amounts to a session. So even though it's packet switch it's still a logical session you have to set up. So for every session, and imagine this happening millions of times at every tower, and more than millions of times at every regional or central data center. You got to have a session set up where you got to authenticate actually Who the user or the device is, make sure they have permission to be on the network and accessing certain things. You've got to authorize them to do certain things. You've got to log what's happening. Then you've got to slap some firewall or security around them. Then you've got to layer in access to all the other resources you're trying to combine into a service back to the end user. There's a lot of things going on. And we have to set up these sessions for every connection. And if you try to set up a VM, for every connection, you would have to fund a multi-billion dollar data center Google can't even afford. So this is where microservices are becoming essential right now. And a 5G hyper-connected world is where you have to have much more efficiency, in the speed with which you set up these sessions, the efficiency of number of sessions per server. And the cost, the processing of these transactions. >> This is interesting. I want to just kind of translate a little bit for the folks that aren't CTO's out there. Essentially when you think about mobile we've all been, you know, since the iPhone in 2007, we've seen this just accelerate. You know with data and whatnot. You've been at a concert, you've been in a stadium, you've got signal but you can't connect. >> Right. >> That is essentially the base station saying I can't get a session. Now as a user you have a phone, so you've been provisioned by the Telco, so they know who you are. So you have a phone, you have a device, you just can't connect a session to the radio connector and then get to the internet. That's a known problem. Now when you think about IoT, internet of things and now people, your watches, your wearables, sensors on the airplanes, industrial equipment to traffic lights. Those are devices that are going to be provisioned and turned off and on. So it's like a new phone every time. So you've got the complication of not knowing the devices that are coming on, and then trying to establish the connections. And figuring all this out. This is kind of a really hard problem. >> It is. >> This is a really really hard problem of scale at many levels. So to me what we're hearing at Mobile World Congress is you need a dynamic network. >> Val: Absolutely. >> What are some of the tech involved? What's the real enabler. You mentioned microservices, we know about containers. Linux Foundation's opening up their kernel for a lot of variety of new configurations. You got solid state memory and you got new memory architectures. What are some of the key things from a technical perspective that are going to change that complexity to be seamless for users? >> Probably the most fascinating trend to me and we're just beginning to see some stories emerge around this is the rise of edge computing. I kind of hark back to when I started my career, I'm dating myself now but the client server era that succeeded from mainframes, we've seen a huge pendulum shift towards Cloud computing. And centralizing a lot of processing. Well back to 5G, back to millions if not billions of connected devices right now. There is no way Einstein introduced his problem for the speed of light. There is no way to process the exponential amount of data we're dealing with right now at the core. And still provide useful feedback at the edge. So the rise of edge computing has a bit of a counterbalance to Cloud computing. And having more powerful, more intelligent processing at the edge, filtering a lot of data 'cause we can't possibly store the exit bytes and yadabytes of data. >> This is a paradigm shift. What you're talking about is a new paradigm shift. Because it used to be a centralized computer, and then a master slave or connected device terminal then you had smart terminals, business clients, and then PCs and then smart phones, so what you're bringing up is an interesting architecture that is an enterprise data center thing. And we were talking yesterday, and then I was telling the Intel folks, I pressed them on this 'cause they're obviously in the data center business, that a car that's fully instrumented like a Tesla or a future autonomous car is essentially a moving data center. So it changes the notion of data. >> Yes. >> This is a paradigm shift. You agree with that. >> Moreover. IoT is maybe the first technology buzzword that takes a lot of this digital world that we've been talking about. It's really been largely abstract and virtual for the common person. And it makes it physical and real. So the impact of IoT is an actuator changing your traffic light. You know, it's whether you're getting water, you're getting electricity at your house. Whether you're finding your way to your location via GPS. That's especially impacting your physical world it's no longer just a virtual thing. So that's where IoT's going to become really really significant in our lives. >> And the software program that needs to be created. This is an opportunity for entrepreneurs certainly. Peter Burris and I were talking yesterday morning about the edge computing. He's got a slew of research on this. He goes by IoT and p, IoT, things and people. And we were also talking yesterday about the relationship of the people to technology. So for instance in Telco's they view the phone as the relationship that's coupled to the carrier. And the premise we put out yesterday was that that's going to be an uncoupling. It's going to be a person's relationship to multiple carriers if you will. So the question is how does business extract value out of this? And this is something again that Peter Burris was digging into. Which is the business value of technology. In the paradigm we just talked about which seems pretty obvious, how we get there not so obvious, but people are working on that. How should companies think about getting value out of this massive shift? A lot of moving parts. >> The examples are already there. Let's talk about one of the most talked-about companies around here. Uber. And not because of the reasons they're attracting right now, but some of the classical disruption they enabled. Take a look at the fundamentals of what they do technically. It's interesting. It's somewhat impressive, but it's not revolutionary. What made them revolutionary is digitizing the transportation relationship you and I have with our transportation providers. And when they tapped into that they realized the potential for that is limitless right now. 'Cause we're all physical beings, we still have to move ourselves and our food, our packages around. But digitizing transportation is really you know a great example of any industry. Whether it's a 100-year-old industry or a brand new industry when you digitize the distribution, and when you actually add digital efficiencies in the back end, you end up with that 100 x effect, more than a 10 x effect. And truly earned the term disruptor. >> Give us more examples that you've seen. I know you talk a lot of Telco's but what other use cases. Because the whole notion of 5G and this new architecture is really coming down to use cases. And certainly the sexy ones. The car, the smart cities, I mean there's a lot of policy, societal impact issues that need to be thought through. But just generally, what's the low-hanging fruit right now? >> You know instead of low-hanging fruit let me give you the most pedestrian example I can think of. Which is when I meet with some of the waste management companies years ago I took them for granted. There was no innovation here. It's going to be an old enterprise discussion with some conservative tech leaders. I'm not even going to, I'm not trying to phone this is. I show up to meet with them, and they were truly innovating because they realized the whole customer experience of putting out your trash bin, your recycle bin, your organics bin, and so forth, your compost bin, can actually be improved. And the efficiencies added when you put GPS trackers on all the trucks. When you figure out when they have to go to the dump because there's an inordinately high amount of garbage put out early in the route one morning. And the ability for you to know when your bins are picked up. So you can actually go and pick up those bins. Put them out minutes before instead of the night before. Bring them back minutes after. Just reinventing that very pedestrian mundane experience tells me that there are opportunities for innovation everywhere in our lives. >> So really pick a spot to make efficient. Is probably easiest. Great, great feedback. Thoughts on developers. 'Cause it's something that we didn't, and we'd love to bring you back for more time on this but the CNC the Cloud Native Compute Foundation which is now part of the Linux Foundation, you mentioned microservices, orchestrations, there's a lot of software around composability, whether that's an artisan light developer, or the hardcore developers down lower on the stack. How does autonomous vehicles and this new future use case whether it's programming drones or writing cool software, to what's going on in the developer community? Can you share any color on trends around what's being done in traditional classic developing? >> Autonomous vehicles is already a perfect example because CNCF fundamentally is about what we call Cloud native technologies and applications. In a typical Cloud native architecture is container packaged not VM packaged. And it's dynamically orchestrated. So we say it's basically declarative as opposed to opinionated to use back end speak technical developer speak. But what does that mean? Autonomous cars are not interesting if one car is autonomous. Autonomous cars are interesting when dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of cars along your route those are autonomous. The interaction between them, and making sure they don't all try to occupy the same space at the same time. That's pretty essential. But also keeping traffic flowing smoothly and preventing unnecessary traffic jams. So it's the coordination of multiple processes, multiple things. That's what really make Cloud native computing happen at scale. So CNCF actually is five projects right now. Most people know it as the Kubernetes project and it is very much that. I think a year ago no one knew how hot Kubernetes would be but certainly it's taken off right now. Thanks a lot in part to Google. We've got new technologies around monitoring. So you've got a monitor your app obviously in the Cloud world to see what are the efficiencies performances for the end user. Around logging, distributed logging and monitoring. We've got new projects around actually debugging at scale. So debugging one process is simple as any developer knows. Debugging multiple concurrent threads or processes, that's still a black art. And so we've got open tracing technologies around that, and there's a new style of project, something known as link or d. But it's around now and the IoT context the most important thing to me discovery of context. What other devices, what other sensors are out there. >> It sounds like an operating system to me. You got linkers, you got loaders, you got all this orchestration. This is a global operating environment. >> It's a great insight. It's not an operating system. >> Not in like a classic sense. But there's some systems... >> It is a new operating environment. In the Cloud native world, operating system still connotates one PC, one device or one host on a data center. It really is a coordination of services. New modern high-end services. >> And declarative thing with containers is essentially assembly based, you can manage things component-wise, those kinds of concepts. And you see that as a key part of enabling these new use cases. >> There's actually no economies of scale if you don't go Cloud native nowadays. As 5G networks become more prevalent, as IoT becomes more mainstream, it doesn't play without microservice. >> And the trade-offs for not being Cloud native is what? >> Being disrupted. It's literally you know there's some great recent blogs. You've heard this title before, the coming SaaSpocalypse. So the disruption of the legacy SaaS vendors. The economics of them force you to basically have fixed subscription models with your customers. And whether you're using you know your CRM map once a day or 100 times a day. It costs you the same. These new Cloud native architectures are going to enable disruption in an industry because they only consume resources as a sessions for an app and the licensing and business model can now be that much more efficient. People are actually willing to be charged per use as opposed to per subscription. >> Now you know, I've gotten to know you over the years, and a great guest to have on The Cube. Thanks for sharing that insight. But it is an exciting time. You had a great run at NetApp. I mean you look at what NetApp's been doing, I mean they were the darling of Silicon Valley. Classic success story. Multiple reinventions, great founding team, great investors, just a classic run that they've had. As you look back now going forward, looking back and now looking forward, what are some of the things that get you jazzed up right now in terms of things that are that next wave that's coming. What do you see that's exciting and what would you share for folks for insight? >> I'd say the most exciting thing to me at a high level is the opportunity that 5G IoT enables. I think there's a whole new market segment. Some people might call it the real evolution of HCI. Which is edge computing, and all these really fast workloads. That are not going to be necessarily virtual desktops in terms of running or operating your business. But entirely new revenue streams, entirely new services, and all sorts of companies, digital or analog can offer. That excites me. And of course we've talked about the back end of the shift towards away from fast storage. Fast storage toward persistent memory. That in itself is going to open up a whole new category of apps that we've yet to see. >> Yeah we got to get that Linux rewritten and opened up. All kinds of new stuff. Great great commentary Val. Thanks for coming on The Cube to share. We certainly want to have you back. And really unpack and drill down and double down on what Cloud native impact means, and certainly edge and IoT computing. Really is going to be a fascinating run I think. I think that's going to open up a huge can of worms and an opportunity for really changing the game and creating great value and risk too. I mean Amazon S3's down as we speak. We're joking but you know we see insecurity problems out there and we'll stay on top of it. Of course The Cube has got you covered. And that's the hot themes really that's not being reported about Mobile World Congress that we're reporting. Which is the surge in IoT relevance. But that gives a mental model. This is the story of Mobile World Congress. 5G as a fabric connecting in with hard enterprise data center-like technologies. End to end for dynamic experiences. This is the challenge for Telcos. And someone will get it done. Let's see who it will be. Of course we'll be watching it. This is The Cube with more coverage of Mobile World Congress after this short break.

I[Announcer] Live from Silicon Valley, it's "The Cube." Covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> 'Kay welcome back everyone, we are live in Palo Alto for "The Cube" special coverage of Mobile World Congress 2017. We're in our new 4,500 square foot studio, just moved in. We'll be expanding, you'll see a lot more in-studio coverage from "The Cube" as well as our normal going out to the events and extracting. Anyways I'm John Furrier Joining me is Jeff Frick. General manager of "The Cube." But a breakdown, all the action. As you know, we do a lot of data science. We've been watching the grid. We've been on the treadmill all weekend. All last week, digging into the Mobile World Congress. Sentiment, the vibe, the direction, and trying to synthesize all the action. And really kind of bring it all together for everyone here. And of course,we're doing it in Palo Alto. We're going to bring folks in from Silicon Valley that could not have made the trek to Barcelona. We're going to be talking to folks on the phone, who are in Barcelona. You heard from Lynn Comp from Intel. We have Floyd coming up next. CTO and SAP breaking down all the action from their new cloud. And big Apple news. SAP now has a general availability of the iOS native development kit. Which should change the game for SAP. There is tons of smart cities, smart stadiums, you know IOT, autonomous vehicles. So much going on at Mobile World Congress. We're going to break that down every day starting at 8AM. In-studio. And of course, I want to thank Intel for headlining our sponsorship and allowing us to create this great content. With some contributing support from SAP clouds I want to give a shout out, a bit shout out to Intel. Check out their booth. Check out their coverage. And check out their new SAP cloud, that's been renamed from HANA Cloud to SAP cloud. Without their support we wouldn't be able to bring this wall-to-wall great commentary. Jeff so with that aside. We got two days. We've got Laura Cooney coming in. Bob Stefanski managing this bridge between Detroit and Silicon Valley. And all that great stuff. Phones are ringing off the hook here in the studio. Go tweet us by the way at the cube or at ferrier We have Guy Churchwood coming in. We have great content all week. We have entrepreneurs. We have Tom Joyce, a Cube alumni. Who's an executive interviewing for a bunch of CEO positions. Really going to break down the changing aspect of Mobile World Congress. The iPhone's 10 years old. We're seeing now a new step function of disruption. Peter Burris said the most terrible in time. And I even compounded the words by saying and the phones are getting faster. So it's beyond the device. I mean what are you seeing on the grid? When you look at the data out there? >> John a bunch of things as we've been watching the stream of the data that came in and surprised me. First off just a lot of early announcements around Blackberry and Nokia. Who are often not really mentioned as the leaders in the handsets base. Not a place that we cover real extensively. But really kind of, these guys making a move and really taking advantage of the void that Samsung left with some of the Note issues. But what I thought was even more interesting is on our hashtag monitoring tools that IOT and 5G are actually above any of the handset manufacturers. So it really supports a hypothesis that we have that while handsets will be better and there'll be more data enabled by 5G, what 5G's really all about is as an IOT enabler. And really another huge step in the direction of connected devices, autonomous vehicles. We've talked about it. We cover IOT a lot. But I thought that was pretty interesting. >> Well Robo Car's also in there. That's a. >> Well everybody loves a car right. >> Well it's kind of a symbol of the future of the car. Which again ties it all together. >> Right right. The driverless race car, which is pretty interesting. >> Takes sports to a whole other level. >> I thought that was interesting. Another little thing as we watch these digital assistants and these voice assistants John, and I got a couple for Christmas just so I could try them out, is that Motorola announced that they're going to partner with Alexa. And use the Alexa voice system inside of their phones. You know I'm still waiting, I don't know why Siri doesn't have a stand-alone device and really when you use a Google Home versus an Amazon Alexa, very different devices, really different kind of target. So I thought that was an interesting announcement that also came out. But fundamentally it's fun to see the support of IOT and 5G, and really enable this next great wave of distribution, disruption, and opportunity. >> We're going to have Saar Gillia in the studio later today and tomorrow as a guest analyst for us on "The Cube." Of course folks may know Saar from being on "The Cube," he was recently senior vice reporting to Meg Whitman, and built out that teleco service provider, NFV business model for HP. And he's been to Mobile World Congress almost every year. He didn't make it this year, he'll be coming in the studio. And he told me prior to being, extremely vetting him for "The Cube" if you will, to use a Trump term, after extreme vetting of Saar Gillia he really wants to make the point of, and this is going to be critical analysis, kind of poking a hole into the hype, which is he doesn't think that the technology's ready for primetime. And specifically he's going to comment around he doesn't believe that the apps are ready for all this bandwidth. He doesn't think, he thinks that 5G is a solution looking for a problem. And I don't necessarily agree with him, so we'll have a nice commentary. Look for Saar today on "The Cube," at 11:30 he's coming on. It's going to be a little bit of a cage match there with Saar. >> I always go back to the which is the most underrepresented and most impactful law. Which is probably in the short term, in the hype cycle 5G's probably not going to deliver on their promise up to the level of the hype. As we find over and over with these funny things like Bluetooth. Who would ever think Bluetooth would be such an integral part of so many things that we do today? I think over the long term, the mid term, I think the opportunity's giant. >> I meant I think for people to understand 5G, at least the way I always describe it over the weekend, when I was at lacrosse games and soccer games over the weekend, for the folks that aren't in tech, 5G is the holy grail for IOT, mobile cars, and AI. Because what 5G does, it creates that mesh of rf, or rf radio frequency, at a whole other level. You look at the radios that Intel's announcing across their Telco partners, and what Intel's doing really is a game-changer. And we all know LTE, when the signal's low on the phone, everyone freaks out. We all know when WiFi doesn't work, the world kind of comes to a crawl. I mean just think 15 years ago wifi wasn't even around. So now think about the impact of just what we rely on with the digital plumbing called wireless. >> [Jeff] Right, right. >> When you think about the impact of going around the fiber to the home, and the cost it takes, to bring fiber to, Lynn Comp was commenting on that. So having this massively scalable bandwidth that's a radio frequency wireless is just a game-changing thing you can do. Low latency, 10 20 gig, that's all you need. Then you're going to start to see the phones change and the apps change. And as Peter Burris said a turbulent change of value propositions will emerge. >> It's funny at RSA a couple of weeks back the chatter was the people at RSA, they don't use wifi. You know, they rely on secure mobile networks. And so 5G is going to enable that even more, and as you said, if you can get that bandwidth to your phone in a safer, and secure, more trusted way, you know what is the impact on wifi and what we've come to expect on our devices and the responsiveness. And all that said, there will be new devices, there will be new capabilities. And I guess the other thing that's kind of funny is that of course the Oscar's made their way up to the, on the board. I thought that might wipe everything out after last night. But no IOT and 5G is still above Oscar's on the trending hashtag. >> Well I mean, Oscar's bring up... It's funny we all watch the Oscar's. There was some sort of ploy, but again, you bring up entertainment with the Oscar's. You look at what Hollywood's going through, and the Hollywood Reporter had an article talking about Reed Hastings with Netflix, he talked today really kind of higher end video so the entertainment business is shifting the court cutting is happening, we're seeing more and more what they call over the top. And this is the opportunity for the service providers but also for the entertainment industry. And with social media and with all these four form factors changing the role of media will be a packet data game. And how much can you fit in there? Whether it's e-sports to feature film making, the game is certainly changing. And again, I think Mobile World Congress is changing so radically. It's not just a device show anymore, it's not about the handset. It's about what the enablement is. I think that's why the 5G impact is interesting. And making it all work together, because a car talking to this device, it's complicated. So there's got to be the glue, all kind of new opportunities. So that's what I'm intrigued by. The Intel situation where you've got two chip guys battling it out for who's going to be that glue layer under the hood >> Right and if you look at some of the quotes coming out of the show a lot of the high-level you got to get away from the components and get into the systems and solutions, which we hear about over and over and over again. It's always about systems and solutions. I think they will find a problem to solve, with the 5G. I think it's out there. But it is... >> My philosophy Jeff is kill me with the bandwidth problem. Give me more bandwidth, I will consume more bandwidth. I mean look at compute pal as an example. People thought Morse law was going to cap out a decade ago. You look at the compute power in the chips with the cloud, with Amazon and the cloud providers it's almost infinite computes. So then the role of data comes in. So now you got data, now you got mobile, I think give us more bandwidth, I think the apps have no problem leveling up. >> [Jeff] Sucking it up. >> And that's going to be the debate with Saar. >> It's the old chip. The Intel Microsoft thing where you know, Intel would come out with a faster chip then the OS with eat more of it as part of the OS. And it kept going and going. We've talked through a lot of these John and if you're trying to predict the future and building for the future you really have to plan now for almost infinite bandwidth for free. Infinite storage for free, infinite compute for free. And while those curves are kind of asymptotically free they're not there yet. That is really the world in which we're heading. And how do you reshape the way you design apps, experiences, interphases without those constraints, which before were so so significant. >> I'm just doing a little crowd check here, you can go to crowdcheck.net/mwc if you want to leave news links or check in with the folks chatting. And I was just talking to SAP and SAP had the big Apple news. And one of the things that's interesting and Peter Burris talked about this on our opening this morning is that confluence between the consumer business and then the infrastructures happening. And that it was called devos but now you're starting to see the developers really focusing on the business value of technology. But yet it's not all developers even though people say the developers, the new king-makers, well I would say that. But the business models still is driven by the apps. And I think developers are certainly closer to the front lines. But I think you're going to start to see a much more tighter coupling between the c level folks in business and the developers. It's not just going to be a developer-led 100% direction. Whether it's entertainment, role of data, that's going to be pretty interesting Jeff. >> So Apple's just about finished building the new spaceship headquarters right. I think I opens up next month. I'm just curious to get your take John on Apple. Obviously the iPhone changed the game 10 years ago. What' the next big card that Apple's going to play? 'Cause they seemed to have settled down. They're not at the top of the headlines anymore. >> Well from my sources at Apple, there are many. Deep inside at the highest levels. What I'm hearing is the following. They're doing extremely well financially, look at the retail, look at the breadth of business. I think Tim Cook has done an amazing job. And to all my peers and pundits who are thrashing Apple they just really don't know what they're talking about. Apple's dominating at many levels. It's dominating firstly on the fiscal performance of the company. They're a digital presence in terms of their stickiness is second to none. However, Apple does have to stay in their game. Because all the phone guys they are in essence copying Apple. So I think Apple's going to be very very fine. I think where they could really double down and win on is what they did getting out of the car business. I think that was super smart. There was a post by Auto Blog this weekend saying Silicon Valley failed. I completely disagree with that statement. Although in the short term it looks like on the scoreboard they're kind of tapping out, although Tesla this year. As well as a bunch of other companies. But it's not about making the car anymore. It's all about the car's role in a better digital ecosystem. So to me I think Apple is poised beautifully to use their financial muscle, to either buy car companies or deal with the digital aspect of it and bring that lifestyle to the car, where the digital services for the personalization of the user will be the sticking point for the transportation. So I think Apple's poised beautifully for that. Do they have some issues? Certainly every company does. But compared to everyone else I just see no one even close to Apple. At the financial level, with the cash, and just what they're doing with the tax. From a digital perspective. Now Google's got a self-driving cars, Facebook's a threat, Amazon, so those are the big ones I see. >> The other thing that's happening this week is the game developer conference in San Francisco at Moscone. So you know again, huge consumers of bandwidth, huge consumers of compute power. Not so much storage. I haven't heard much of the confluence of the 5G movement with the game developer conference. But clearly that's going to have a huge impact 'cause most gaming is probably going to move to a more and more mobile platform, less desktop. >> Well the game developer conference, the one that's going on the GDC, is kind has a different vibe right now. It's losing, it's a little bit lackluster in my mind. It's classic conference. It's very monetized. It seems to be over-monetized. It's all about making money rather than promoting community. The community in gaming is shifting. So you can look at how that show is run, versus say e three and now you've got Twitch Con. And then Mobile World Congress, one of the big voids is there's no e-sports conversation. That certainly would be the big thing to me. To me, everything that's going digital, I think gaming is going to shift in a huge way from what we know as a console cult. It's going to go completely mainstream, in all aspects of the device. As 5G overlays on top of the networks with the software gaming will be the first pop. You're going to see e-sports go nuclear. Twitch Con, those kind of Twitch genre's going to expand. Certainly "The Cube" will have in the future a gaming cube. So there'll be a cube anchor desk for most the gaming culture. Certainly younger hosts are going to come one. But to me I think the gaming thing's going to be much more lifestyle. Less culty. I think the game developer conference's lost its edge. >> And one of the other things that comes, obviously Samsung made a huge push. They were advertising crazy last night on the Oscar's, with the Casey add about you know, people are creating movies. And they've had their VR product out for a while but there's a lot of social activity saying what is going to be the killer app that kind of breaks through VR? We know Oculus has had some issues. What do you read in between the tea leaves there John? >> Well it's interesting the Oscar's was awesome last night, I would love to watch the Hollywood spectacle but one of the things that I liked was that segway where they introduced the Oscar's and they kind of were tongue in cheek 'cause no one in Hollywood really has any clue. And they were pandering, well we need to know what they meant. It was really the alpha geeks who were pioneering what used to be the green screen technology now you go and CGI it's our world. I mean I want to see more of that because that is going to be the future of Hollywood. The tools and the technologies for filmmaking is going to have a Morse law-like impact. It's the same as e-sports, you're going to see all kinds of new creative you're going to see all kinds of new tech. They talked about these new cameras. I'm like do a whole show on that, I would love it. But what it's going to enable is you're going to see CGI come down to the price point where when we look at PowerPoints and Adobe Creative Suite and these tools. You're going to start to see some badass creative come down for CGI and this is when the artist aspect comes in. I think art design will be a killer field. I think that is going to be the future of filmmaking. You're going to see an indie market explode in terms of talent. The new voices are going to emerge, the whole diversity thing is going to go away. Because now you're going to have a complete disruption of Hollywood where Hollywood owns it all that's going to get flattened down. I think you're going to see a massive democratization of filmmaking. That's my take. >> And then of course we just continue to watch the big players right. The big players are in here. It's the start ups but I'm looking here at the Ford SAP announcement that came across the wire. We know Ford's coming in at scale as stuff with IBM as well So those people bring massive scale. And scale is what we know drives pricing and I think when people like to cap on Morse law they're so focused on the physical. I think the power of Morse law has nothing to do with the microprocessor per se. But really it's an attitude. Which we talked a little briefly about what does the world look like if you have infinite networking, infinite compute, and infinite storage. And basically free. And if you start to think that way that changes your perspective on everything. >> Alright Jeff well thanks for the commentary. Great segment really breaking down the impact of Mobile World Congress. Again this show is morphing from a device show phone show, to full on end-to-end network. Intel are leading the way and the entire ecosystem on industry partners, going to write software for this whole new app craze, and of course we'll be covering it here all day today Monday the 27th and all the day the 28th. Stay tuned stay watching. We've got more guests coming right back with more after the short break.