>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. It's CubeCon cloud native con 2019. You're watching the cube. I'm streaming in my cohost for three days of live coverage is John Troyer and happened at welcome fresh off the keynote stage to my right is as hers as har who's the chief architect for telco at red hat and the man that was behind the scenes for a lot of it, hunting Garcia, telco solutions manager at red hat. A gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us and a very interesting keynote. So you know 5g uh, you know, my background's networking, we all watch it. Um, uh, let's say my telco provider already says that I have something related to five G on my phone that we grumble a little bit about, but we're not going to talk about that where we are going to talk about his keynote. Uh, we had a China mobile up on stage. Uh, maybe a, I love a little bit behind the scenes as you were saying. Uh, you know, the cloud native enabled not just uh, you know, the keynote and what it's living, but it gets a little bit of what >>well, sure. Um, look, when we took on this particular project to build a cloud native environment, uh, for five genes, we spent a lot of time planning and in fact this is a guy who actually did, you know, most of that work, um, to do a lot of planning in terms of picking different components and getting that together. Um, one of the things that cloud native environment allows us to do is bring things up quickly. The resilience part of it and the scale bar, right? Those are the two important components and attributes of cloud native. In fact, what happened last night was obviously one of the circuit breakers trapped and we actually lost power to that particular entire part that is onstage. I mean, nobody knows about this. I didn't talk about it as part of the keynote, but guess what? Through because it was cloud native because it was built in an automated fashion. People were able to work. Yes, they spent about three hours or so to actually get that back up. But we got it back up and running and we showed it live today. But what, I'm not trying to stress on how it failed a white fail. I'm trying to stress on how quickly things came back up and more important. The only cloud native way of doing things could have done that. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible. All right. >>as, as the man behind the scenes there. Uh, it's great when we have, you know, here's actually the largest telco provider in the world. Uh, you know, showing what it, it's happened. So the title Kubernetes everywhere that telco edge gets a little bit of a hind, the scenes as to kind of the, the, the mission of building the solution and how you got it, you know, your, your, your customers, your partners, uh, engaged and excited to participate in. >> This is what's that very thirsting enterprise through realize. Actually, we took four months around, uh, 15 partners. And, uh, I would say partners >>because in that case, I'm taking, uh, uh, bell Canada and China mobile is a partners. They are part of the project. They were giving us a requirement, helping us all the way to it and together other, uh, more, uh, commercial partners. And of course, uh, as whatsover Allianz, like the team in the and the open interface, Allianz is, we're working with us is, was about 8,200 people working behind the scenes to get this work, uh, to have a lab, uh, directly, completely set up with a full, uh, Fuji containerized MoMA and network in France, uh, have the same in Montreal. Fuji and fogey called directly Montiel as well, uh, in one of our partners, uh, Calum labs and then bringing here the fudgey pop, uh, and have everything connected to the public cloud. So we have everything in there. So all the technology, all the mobile technology was there. >>We have enterprise technology that we're using to connect all the, all the labs and the, and the pop here with the public cloud to. Uh, um, technology and we have of course deployed as, as a, as our, uh, was mentioning. We deployed Kubernete is on the public cloud and we have as well Kubernete is open, rehabbed, open stack, uh, sorry. They had OpenShift container platform running on the, on all the premise in the lab in France and Davi, Marcia and they pop here. Uh, as I say, it was kind of an interesting enterprise. We have some hiccups last night, but uh, we were able to put that out the world telco, >>very specialized, very high service level agreements. I always want by phone to work and so a little bit, uh, uses different terminology than the rest of it sometimes. Right. And MP and VNF and VCO. But so maybe let's real to tell people a little bit like what are we actually talking about here? I mean, people also may not be following edge and, and teleco and what's actually sitting in their home town or, or it used to be embedded chips and none, it was a like Linux, but we're actually talking about installing Kubernetes clusters in a lot of different, really interesting typologies. That's absolutely true actually with the way how, and described it as perfect in the sense that we actually had Kubernetes clusters sitting in a data center environment in France, in Montreal and a remote pop that's sitting here on stage. So it was not just independent clusters but also stretch clusters where we actually had some worker nodes here that will attach back to the Montreal cluster. >>So the flexibility that it gave us was just awesome. We can't achieve that. Uh, you know, in general. But you brought up an interesting topic around, uh, you know, Getty or, uh, or, or the Teleco's operating environment, which is different and cloud native principles has, are a little bit different where they weren't very high availability, they weren't very high reliability with good amount of redundancy. Well, cloud native and actually those attributes to you. But the operational model is very different. You have to almost use codas throwaway hardware as throwaway and do a horizontal scale model to be able to build that. Whereas in the older environment, hardware was a premium switches and routers with a premium and you couldn't have a failure. So you needed all of those, you know, compliance of high availability and upgradability and so on. Here I'm upgrading processes in Linux, I'm upgrading applications. I can go deploy anytime, tear them down. Anytime I'm monitoring the infrastructure, using metrics, using telemetry. That wasn't the case before. So a different operating environment, but it provides actually better residency models than what telcos are actually yesterday. Yeah. >>Um, it's a complicated ecosystem to put all these pieces together. Uh, it gives, gives a little insight as to, uh, you know, red hats, leadership and uh, the, the, the partners that help you put it in. >>I will let him answer that. >>Um, is another, our first rodeo. We have been working on the vitro central office project with the, with the leaner foundation, uh, networking and Hopi NFV community for three last years. Uh, let's say, and the interesting part of this one is that even though we typically get with working with what the technology that they are using now, uh, we decided it's time to go with the technologies that we'll be using from now on. Um, but of course, uh, there is a set of partners that we need. We need to build the infrastructure from scratch. So for example, we have a Lenovo that was bringing all the, all the servers, uh, for the, for the set up in, uh, and here in San Diego, which actually the San Diego pub was built originally in Raleigh, Illinois, facilities and cheap all over the country to here for the show. Uh, and uh, then we have the fabric part. >>So the networking part, that's his cologne. Uh, this was working and bringing us the software defined fabric, uh, to connect all the different future. And then, then we start building this over layers on top. So we have, they had OpenShift container platform for the to completely deploy over metal servers. And then we start adding all the rest of the components, like the four G core fundamental Tran, like dividing for GFG radio from Altron, uh, together with Intel come Scott. That's his building. He started building the mobile part of it in Montreal, a San Diego. And then we add on top of that. Then we start adding the IMS core in the public cloud and then we connect everything through the by tuning. >>So a couple of things that I'd like to highlight in terms of coordinating partners, getting to know when they're ready, figuring out an onboarding process that gives them a sandbox to play with their configurations first before you connect them back into the main environment. Partitioning that working simultaneously with Malden, we had a Slack board that was full of messages every day. We had a nonstop, you know, every morning we had a scam call, right then it's like a scrum meeting every morning, just a daily stand up from eight 30 to nine 30. And we continue that all over the day. >>So as her, one of the things I really like to China mobile, uh, when they talked about in the keynote, first of all they said, you know, the problem is, you know, 20 by 2026, you know, it's, it's rainbows and unicorns and you know, 5g, uh, you know, will help enable so much around the planet. Seriously. Um, but you know, today she, she talked about major challenge in the rollout and infrastructure and service and capability. So, you know, help us understand a little bit the hype from reality of where we are with five G what we could expect. >>Absolutely. We are going through the hype phase right now, right? We are absolutely all the operators want FFG service to be delivered for sure. The reason why they want it to be delivered as they don't want to be left behind. Now there are some operators when we in more opportunistic and looking at 5g as a way to insert themselves into different conversations, IOT conversation, um, smart city conversation, right? Um, edge compute conversation. So they're being very strategic about how the big, the set of technologies, how they go deploy in that particular infrastructure and strategically offer capabilities and build partnerships. Nobody's going to rip out their existing three G four G network and replace that with 5g by 2026. It's not gonna happen, but what will happen by 2026 is an incremental phase of services that will be continued to offer. As an example, I'll give you, um, cable providers are looking at 5g as a way to get into homes because they can deploy in millimeter wave band a radio closer to the house and get a very high speed multi-gigabit high speed connection into the home without having to worry about what's your copper look like? >>Do I have fiber to the home? Do I have fiber to the business and so on. And so. So that's actually an interesting, >>okay, so you're saying solving the last mile issue in a very targeted use. >>Absolutely. So that's one. The other area might be running a partnership with BMW Toyota in, you know, some of these car companies to provide telemetry back from cars into their own, you know, operating environment so that they know what's going on, what's being used, how is it being used, how can we, how can we do provide diagnosis before the car actually begins to fail? Uh, big, you know, private environments like oil and gas mining, they are going to deploy public safety and security where all of these, you know, policemen on and safety personnel are required to now use body cams. Now you have video feeds coming from hundreds of people. There are deployment and incidents. Now you can take that information you need high speed broadband, you need the ability to analyze data and do analytics and provide feedback immediately so that they can actually act. So do three, this specific targeted use case, even a country like India where they're talking about using 5g for very specific use cases, not replacing your phone calling. >>I love that point. And it kind of ties back into some of the other things you were saying about the a agility and the operational model. And I relate it back to it. You know, my, again, my perception of some telco maybe 20 years old and that they had a tendency to do very monolithic projects. And you know, when you're out, when you're rolling out a infrastructure across the country, there's a certain, uh, monolithic nature to it. But you're talking about rolling out one, rolling out individual projects rolling out. That's also the advice we give to it. Try it with one thing, you know, try open shift with that one application and then also though, but it takes uh, the upskilling and the cultural model. So true with your telco petitioners who are, we're on Slack, they're with you and I, you know, I don't, I don't know if there's any relation, any other kinds of things to pull out about the mirror of, of the it transformation with telco transformation and colon Turner. That's actually a good point that you bring up, >>right? Look, the costs of building, if I have infrastructure from ground up is extremely high. If they want to completely revamp that. You're talking about replacing every single radio, you're talking about adding capacity more adding, you know, backhaul capacity and so on. So that isn't going to happen overnight. It's going to happen. It may take even more 10 years. Right. I mean in the most interesting thing, that stat stack that I saw was even LTE is going to grow. LTE subscriber count is going to grow for the next two years before it flatmates. So we're not going to LTE four G that's been around for a decade almost. Right. And it's going to still grow for the next two years, then it's going to flatten and then you'll start to see more 5g subscribers. Now back to the point that you were bringing up in terms of operational model change and in terms of how things will be I D principles applying it principles to telco. >>Um, there are still some challenges that we need to solve in Coobernetti's environment in particular, uh, to address the teleco side of the house. And in fact through this particular proof of concept, that was one of the things we were really attempting to highlight and shine a light on. Um, but in terms of operational models, what use applicable and it will now be totally applicable on the telco network, the CIC pipeline. There's delivery of applications and software that testing and integration, the, you know, um, operational models. Absolutely. Those, in fact, I actually have a number of service providers and telcos that I talked to who are actually thinking about a common platform for it end telco network. And they are now saying, okay, red hat, can you help us in terms of designing this type of a system. So I think what could speak to you a little bit about, uh, in this context is how the same infrastructure can be used for any kind of application. So you want to talk about how the community's platform can be used to deploy CNS and then to deploy applications and how you've shown that. Yeah. Well this is what, >>what we have been doing, right. So we have, uh, the coordinators platform does, is actually deploy and the services we have, all these partners are bringing their Cloudnative uh, function, uh, applications on top of that, that what we are calling the CNF the quantities and network functions. And basically what we were doing as well during the whole process is that we have, those partners are still developing, still finishing the software. So we were building and deploying at the same time and testing on the same time. So during the last four months, and even I can tell you even just to deny >>even last night, so the full CACD pipeline that we deploy in ID side, here it is in operation on the network side. >>Well yeah. So, so I, I want to give you the final word cause you know, John was talking about it cycles, you know, if you think about enterprises, how long they used to take to deploy things, uh, and what cloud data is doing for them. Uh, it sounds like we're going through a similar trends. >>Absolutely big in a big way. Um, telcos are actually deploying a private cloud environment and they're also leveraging public cloud in mind. In fact, sometimes they using public cloud as sandbox for their development to be completed until they get deployed and private. Claremont, they still need the private time enrollment for their own purposes, like security, data sovereignty and uh, you know, their own operational needs. So, but they want to make it as transparent as possible. And in fact, that was one of the things we want to also attempted to show, which is a public cloud today, a private cloud and bare metal, a private cloud on OpenStack. And it was like, and you know, it came together, it worked, but it is real. That's more important. And, uh, for enterprise and for telcos to be literally going down the same path with respect to their applications, their services and their operational models. I think this is really a dream come true. >>Well, congratulations on the demo. Uh, but even more importantly, congratulations on the progress. Great to see, uh, you know, the global impact that's going to have in the telecommunications market. Definitely look forward to hearing more than. >>Thank you very much. Thank you. The opportunity to >>actually be here. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman back with lots more here from CubeCon Claude, date of con 2019 in San Diego, California. Thanks for watching the queue.

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest Ildiko Vancsa, coming off the edge keynote presentation this morning. She is the ecosystem technical lead with the Edge Computing Group as part of the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Coming into this show, edge is one of those things that it was actually pretty exciting to talk about because edge is not only super hot, but when I thought back to previous shows, this is the sixth year we've had theCUBE here and my fifth year doing it, it's like, wait, I've been talking to all the Telcos for years here. NFV was one of those use cases, and when you connect the dots, it's like oh, edge, of course. I said this conference is actually hipster when it comes to edge. We were totally covering it well before we called it that. So, explain to us your role in the foundation and what led to the formation of this track. >> Yeah, so I'm the ecosystem technical lead within the foundation, which is basically a role that belongs under the business development team. So, I'm basically building connections with our ecosystem members. I'm trying to help them succeed with OpenStack, both as software package and as a community. We are embracing open source, of course, so I'm also trying to advocate for involvement in open source because I think that's a key. Like, you know, picking up an open source software component and use it, that's a great start, but if you really want to be successful with it and you want to be able to successfully build it into your business model, then getting involved in the community, both enhancing the software and maintaining of the software, that's really key. So, my role is also onboarding companies as well to be active members of the community, and my focus is shifting toward edge computing. The history of edge computing in OpenStack basically started last May when Beth Cohen from Verizon described their use case, which is OpenStack in a tiny box in production cycle, wow. So that was also a little bit of an eye-opener for us as well, that yes, it's telecom. It's 5G, but this is the thing that's called edge, and maybe this is something that we should also look deeper into. So, we went to San Francisco last September, OpenDev, 200 people, architects, software developers trying to figure out what edge computing is. I think we had the question at every single session, someone asked that, okay, yeah so, what did you mean exactly when you said edge? Because from the nature of the architecture, like, you have the central cloud and then the sides on the different-- >> John: There are several edges depending on how far you want to go. >> Exactly. >> For you and OpenStack, what does edge mean, or all the above? >> With OpenStack, so after OpenDev when we realized that it's not really a well-defined term, we wrote up a white paper. It's at OpenStack the role/edge. It's a short one, really to just set the ground for what edge computing is. And what we came up with is, so don't imagine like a two-sentence definition for edge computing because I still strongly believe that doesn't exist, and anyone who claims it, that's not true. What we did with the white paper is basically we set characteristics and criteria that defines cloud edge computing per se, like what people are talking about when you're moving out the compute and then working closer to the edge. Like what that means from the bandwidth perspective, from how you will manage it, what that means for security, and all these sort of things. And you can basically characterize what edge means. So we rather described these layers and how far we go, and as far as like, you know, the very end edge device and like the IOT sensors, that's not a target of OpenStack. So, OpenStack itself is infrastructure as a service, so our Edge Computing Group is still staying on that layer. The Edge Computing Group itself is focusing on the angles, what edge brings onto the table, all these requirements, you know, collecting the use cases and trying to figure out what's missing, what we need to implement. >> If can repeat and maybe I'll get it right or wrong. The idea is at a cell tower or at a remote office or branch office or some closet somewhere, there is a full set of OpenStack running, maybe a minimal set of OpenStack, but it's live, it's updatable. You can update services on it. You can update the actual OpenStack itself, and it doesn't need the spoke hardware necessarily, but it's now updatable and part of a bigger multi-cloud infrastructure from some sort of service entity or enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Is that fair? >> I think that's fair. So, there's OpenStack itself that people know very well, a lot of projects. So when we talk about edge, obviously we don't want to say that, okay, pick the whole thing and install all the 60 projects because that's really not suitable for edge. So what, for example, the group is looking into, that which OpenStack components are essential for edge. And also the group is defining small edge, medium edge, what that means from hardware footprint perspectives, so just to figure out what the opportunities are there, what will fit, what will not fit. OpenStack itself is very modular by today, so you can pick up the services that you need. So what we discussed, for example, this week is Keystone, identity, you need it of course. So how much that fits into the edge scenarios. And I think the main conclusion of the forum session yesterday was that, yeah, Keystone supports Federation. We talked through the cases, and it seems like that it's kind of there. So, we now need a few people who will sit down, put together the environment, and start testing it because that's when it comes out that, you know, almost there, but there a few things to tweak. But basically the idea is what you described, pick up the component, put it there, and work with it. We also have another project called Cyborg, which is fairly new. That's for hardware acceleration, so it is providing a framework to plug in GPUs, FPJs, and these sort of, a bit more specialized hardware which will be really useful for edge use cases to OpenStack. So that's for example something that China Mobile and the OPNFV Edge Cloud Group is looking into to use, so I really hope that we will get there this year to test it in the OPNFV Pharos Labs in action. So we also have pretty great cross-community collaboration on trying to figure this whole thing out. >> Yeah, it often helps if we have examples to talk about to really explain this. Beth Cohen, we spoke with her last year and absolutely caught our attention. Got a lot of feedback from the community on it. Had Contron on earlier this week talking about, John was saying, here's some small device there with a little blade and is running pieces of OpenStack there to be able to run. Anything from the keynote or, boy, I think there's 40 sessions that you've got here. If you can, give us a couple of examples of some of the use cases that we're seeing to kind of bring this edge to reality. >> Example use cases is, we just heard this morning, for example, someone from the textile industry like how to detect issues with the fabric. So this is like one new manufacturing use case. I also heard another one, which is not checking the fabric itself, but basically the company who manufactures those machines that they are using to create the fabric, so they would like to have a central cloud and have it connected to the factories. So, being able to monitor how the machines are doing, how they can improve those machines, and also within the factory to monitor all the circumstances. Because for all the chemical processes, it's really important that the temperature and everything else is just, you know, clicks because otherwise all your fabrics will have to go to trash. So, that's manufacturing. A lot of telecom 5G, obviously that is really, really heavy because that's the part of the industry which is there today, so with 5G, all those strict requirements. This is really what we are mainly focusing on today. We are not specializing anything for telecom and in 5G use cases, but we want to make sure that all our components fit into that environment as well. In the white paper, for example, you also could see the retail use case. I'm not sure whether that will be exactly on stage this week, but that is also a great example on like Walmart with the lot of stores around, so how you manage those stores because they're also not wanting to do everything centrally. So, they would like to move the functionality out. What if the network connectivity is cut? They still have to be able to operate the store as nothing happened. So, there are a lot of segments of the industry who already have kind of really well-defined use cases. And what we see is that there's many overlapping between the requirements from the different segments that we're going to address. >> Are we seeing things like AI and ML coming up in these conversations also? >> Yes, like I think it was the manufacturing use case when I heard that they are planning to use that, and it's popping up. I think as far as our group is concerned, we are more looking into, I don't know, let's say lower-level requirements like how you maintain and operate the hundreds and thousands of edge sites, what happens with security, what happens with monitoring, what happens with all these sort of things. Like we have a new project rolling in under the foundation umbrella called Airship, which is basically deployment and lifecycle management, which is supposed to address one of the aspect that you were talking about on, okay, so how you manage this, how you upgrade this. And upgrade is, again, a really interesting question because I think I talked to someone yesterday who was like, yes, the Contron guys, they were saying that yeah, upgrade, it's really ambitious. So let say that maybe 18, 24 month or something like some kind of tech operator will decide to upgrade something out in the edge because it's out there, it's working, let's not touch this. So when we talk about upgrade, even that, I think, will depend on the bits of the industry that, what pace they will decide to take. >> Are there any particular surprises or learnings that you've had this year after talking with this community for a week now? You said, well, last year, I was very impressed last year when they got up on stage and talked about that. That kind of expanded my mind a little bit. You've been working with this now for a year, this whole track and forum sessions. Anything you're excited about taking to the future or learnings or surprises that, oh, this is really going to work or anything like that? Any parts of it that are really interesting? You talked about security upgrades. We've talked about a lot of the technical components, but it seems like it's working. >> I think at this point, at least on my end, I think I'm over the surprise phase. So what surprises me the most is how many groups there are out there who are trying to figure out what this whole edge thing is. And what we need to really focus on among the technical requirements is that how we are working together with all these groups just to make sure that the integration between the different things that we are all developing and working on is smooth. So like, we've been working together with the OPNFV community for a while now. It's a really fruitful relationship between us. Like seeing OpenStack being deployed in a full-stack environment and being tested, that's really priceless. And we are planning to do the same thing with edge as well, and we are also looking into ONAP, Aquino, Et-see-mac, so looking into the open source groups, looking into the standardization and really just trying to ensure that when we talk about open infrastructure, that that really is designed and developed in a way that integrates well with the other components. It's synchronized with the standardization activities because I think especially in case of edge, when we say interoperability, that's a level higher than what we call the interoperability on the telecom level I think. Like when you just imagine one operator network and applications from other providers popping up in that network, and components that just realizing the network popping up from different vendors. And this whole thing has to work together. So, I think OpenStack and open infrastructure has a really big advantage there compared to any proprietary solution because we have to address this, I think, really big challenge, and it's also a really important challenge. >> Ildiko, really appreciate you giving us all the updates here on the edge track, the keynote, definitely one of the areas that is capturing our attention and lots of people out there. So, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alums. We have Alan Clark, who's the board chair of the OpenStack Foundation and in the CTO office of SUSE. >> Yep, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us again. It's been a few years. >> It's been a while, I appreciate being back. >> And Lew Tucker, the vice chair of the OpenStack Foundation and vice president and CTO of Cisco. Lew, it's been weeks. >> Exactly right. >> All right. >> I've become a regular here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, John Furrier sent his regard. He wishes he was here, you know. John's always like come on Lew and I, everybody, we were talking about when this Kubernetes thing started and all the conferences, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here. Six years now at this show, as well as some of the remote days and other things there. It's been fun to watch the progressions of-- >> Isn't it amazing how far we've come? >> Yeah, absolutely. Here's my first question for you, Alan. On the one hand, I want you to talk about how far we've gone. But the other thing is, people, when they learn about something, whenever they first learn about it tends to fossilize in their head, this is what it is and always will be. So I think most people know that this isn't the Amazon killer or you know it's free VMware. That we talked about years ago. Bring us a little bit of that journey. >> Well, so, you know, it started with the basic compute storage and as we've watched open-source grow and adoption of open-source grow, the demands on services grow. We're in this transformation period where everything's growing and changing very rapidly. Open-source is driving that. OpenStack could not stay static. When it started, it solved a need, but the needs continued to grow and continued to change. So it's not surprising at all that OpenStack has grown and changed and will continue to grow and change. >> So Lew, it's been fascinating for me, you know. I've worked with and all these things with Cisco and various pieces for my entire career. You're here wearing the OpenStack @ Cisco shirt. And Cisco's journey really did through that to digital transformation themselves. When I talked to Rowan at Cisco Live Barcelona, the future of Cisco is as a software company. So, help set OpenStack into that kind of broader picture. >> Sure, I think one of the aspects of that is that we're seeing now it is becoming this multi-cloud world. And that we see all of our customers are running in the public cloud. They have their own private data centers. And what they're looking for is they want their whole development model and everything else to now become targeted towards that multi-cloud world. They're going to do services in the public cloud, they still have their private data center. OpenStack is a place for them to actually meet and run all their services 'cause now you can build your environment within your data center that makes it look very much like your public cloud, so your developers don't have two completely different mindsets. They have the same one, it's extracting resources on demand. And that one, we're putting on top of that other newer technology that's coming, such as Kubernetes. We've got a real consistency between those environments. >> Yeah, please Alan. >> I was going to say, it enables you to leverage your existing infrastructure so you don't want to make them, particularly those SUSE's customers, they don't want us to come in and say throw everything away, start afresh right? But at the same time, you've got to be able to embrace what's new and what's coming. We're talking about many new technologies here in OpenStack Summit today right? Containers and all sorts of stuff. A lot of those things are still very new to our customers and they're preparing for that. As Lew said, we're building that infrastructure. >> One of the things, as I'm thinking about it, some people look at, they look at codec containers and some of these pieces outside of the OpenStack project and they're like, well what's the Foundation doing? But I believe it should be framed, and please, please, I would love your insight on this, in that multi-cloud discussion because this is, it can't just be, well, this is how you build private. It needs to be, this is how you live in this multi-cloud environment. >> That's why I think, you're beginning to see us talk about open infrastructure. And this is using open-source software to use software to manage your infrastructure and build it out instead of configuration, cabling, having guys going out, plugging in, unplugging network ports and whatever. We want software and automations to do all that, so OpenStack is one of the cloud platforms. But these other projects are now coming into the Foundation, which also expand that notion of open infrastructure, and that's why we're seeing these projects expand. >> Lew's exactly right and it goes beyond that. Back in 2017, early 2017, we recognized, as a board, that it's not going to be just about the projects within OpenStack. We have to embrace our adjacent communities and embrace those technologies. So that's why you're hearing a lot about Kubernetes and containers and networking and all sorts of projects that are not necessarily being done within OpenStack but you're seeing how we're collaborating with all those other communities. >> And codec is a perfect example of that. Codec containers came out of those clear containers. It's now combining the best of both worlds, 'cause now you get the speed of containers bringing up, but you get the security and isolation of virtual machines. That's important in the OpenStack community, in our world, because that's what we want out of our clouds. >> Well you both have just mentioned community a few times. I saw one thing coming in to this conference, I'm so impressed by the prominence of community. It's up on stage from the first minutes of the first keynote. People, the call to action, the pleas, for the folks, some of us have been here years and years, for the new folks, please come meet us right? That's really inviting, it's very clear that this is a community. >> Yeah I was surprised, actually, 'cause we saw it when we were asked when up on stage how many people were here for the first time? More than half the audience raised their hand. >> Alan: I was surprised by that as well. >> That was the real surprise. And at the same time, we're seeing, increasingly, users of OpenStack coming in as opposed the people who are in core projects. We're seeing Progressive insurance coming in. We're seeing Adobe Marketing Cloud having over 100,000 cores running OpenStack. That's in addition to what we've had with Walmart and others so the real users are coming. So our communities, not just the developers but the users of OpenStack and the operators. >> That's always an interesting intention for an open-source project right. You have the open-source contributors, and then you have the users and operators. But here at the show right? All of these different technology tracks. Part of community is identity. And so, as the technical work has been split-off, and is actually at another event, these are the users. But it does, with all these other technology conversations, I wonder what the core identity of, I'm an OpenStack member, like what does that end up meaning in a world of open infrastructure? if the projects, if the OpenStack itself is more mature, and as we get up the letters of the alphabet towards Z, How do you all want to steer what it means to be a member of the OpenStack community. >> We met on Sunday as a joint leadership. So we had, it wasn't just a board meeting, it was a meeting with the technical committee, it was a meeting with the user committee. So we're very much pushing to make sure we have those high interactions, that the use cases are getting translated into requirements and getting translated into blueprints and so forth. We're working very, very hard to make sure we have that communication open. And I think one of the things that sets the OpenStack community apart is what we call our Four Opens. We base everything on our Four Opens and one of those is communication, transparency and communication. And that's what people are finding enticing. And one of the big reasons is I think they're coming to OpenStack to do that innovation and collaboration. >> We've seen the same thing with Linux, for example. Linux is no longer just the operating system when people think about the Linux community. Linux community is the operating system and then all of these other projects associated with them. That's the same thing that we're seeing with OpenStack. That's why we're continuing to see, wherever there's a need as people are deploying OpenStack and operating it and running it, all of these other open-source components are coming into it because that's what they really were running, that conglomerate of projects around it. >> Certainly, the hype cycle, and maybe Linux went through it's own hype cycle, back in the day and I'm from Silicon Valley. I think the hype cycle outside the community and what's actually happening on the ground here actually are meshed quite well. What I saw this week, like you said, real users, big users, infrastructure built into every bank, transport, telecom in the world. That's a global necessary part of the infrastructure of our planet. So outside of investment, things like that-- >> Well I hope you can help us get the message out. Because that is, a major thing that we see and we experience the conf, people who are not here. They still, then maybe look at OpenStack the way it was, maybe, four years ago, and it was difficult to deploy, and people were struggling with it, and there was a lot of innovation happening at a very, very fast rate. Well now, it's proven, it's sort of industrial grade, it's being deployed at a very large scale across many, many industries. >> Well it's interesting. Remember, Lew, when we were talking about ethernet fabrics. We would talk about some of SDN and some of these big things. Well, look sometimes these things are over-hyped. It's like, well, there's a certain class of the market who absolutely needs this. If I'm at Telco, and I sat here a couple of years ago, and was like, okay, is it 20 or 50 companies in the world that it is going to be absolutely majorly transformative for them and that's hugely important. If I'm a mid-sized enterprise, I'm still not sure how much I'm caring about what's happening here, no offense, I'd love to hear some points there. But what it is and what it isn't with targets, absolutely, there are massive, massive clouds. Go to China, absolutely. You hear a lot about OpenStack here. Coming across the US, I don't hear a lot about it. We've known that for years. But I've talked to cloud provider in Australia, we've talked to Europeans that the @mail who's the provider for emails for certain providers around the world. It's kind of like okay, what part of the market and how do we make sure we target that because otherwise, it's this megaphone of yeah, OpenStack, well I'm not sure that was for me. >> So, yeah, what's your thought? >> We're seeing a lot of huge variety of implementations, users that are deploying OpenStack. And yeah we always think about the great big ones right? I love CERN, we love the Walmarts. We love China Mobiles, because they're huge, great examples. But I have to say we're actually seeing a whole range of deployments. They don't get the visibility 'cause they're small. Everybody goes, oh you're running on three machines or 10 machines, okay, right? Talk to me when you're the size of CERN. But that's not the case, we're seeing this whole range of deployments. They probably don't get much visibility, but they're just as important. So there's tons of use cases out there. There's tons of use cases published out there and we're seeing it. >> One of the interesting use cases with a different scale has been that edge discussion. I need a very small-- >> In fact that's a very pointed example, because they've had a ton of discussion because of that variety of needs. You get the telcos with their large-scale needs, but you've also got, you know, everybody else. >> It's OpenStack sitting at the bottom of a telephone pole. On a little blade with something embedded. >> In a retail store. >> It's in a retail store. >> Or in a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> So this is really where we recognizing over and over again we go through these transitions that it used to be, even the fixed devices out of the edge. To change that, you have to replace that device. Instead, we want automation and we want software to do it. That's why OpenStack, moving to the edge, where it's a smaller device, much more capability, but it still computes storage and networking. And you want to have virtualized applications there so you can upgrade that, you can add new services without sending a truck out to replace that. >> Moving forward, do we expect to see more interaction between the Foundation itself and other foundations and open-source projects? And what might that look like? >> It depends on the community. It really does, we definitely have communications from at the board level from board-to-board between adjacent communities. It happens at the grassroots level, from, what we call SIGs or work groups with SIGs and work groups from those adjacent communities. >> I happen to sit on three boards, which is the OpenStack board the CNCF board, Cloud Foundry. And so what we're also seeing, though, now. For example, running Kubernetes, we just have now the cloud provider, which, OpenStack, being a cloud provider for Kubernetes similar in the open way that Amazon had the cloud provider for Kubernetes or Google is the cloud provider. So that now we're seeing the communities working together 'cause that's what our customers want. >> And now it's all driven by SIGs. >> The special interest groups, both sides getting together and saying, how do we make this happen? >> How do we make this happen? >> All right. One of the things you look at, there's a lot going on at the show. There's the OpenDev activity, there's a container track, there's an edge track. Sometimes, you know, where it gets a little unfocused, it's like let's talk about all the adjacencies, wait what about the core? I'd love to get your final takeaways, key things you've seen at the show, takeaways you want people to have when they think about OpenStack the show and OpenStack the Foundation. >> From my point of view it actually is back to where we started the conversation, is these users that are now coming out and saying, "I've been running OpenStack for the last three years, "now we're up to 100,000 or 200,000 cores." That shows the real adoption and those are the new operators. You don't think of Walmart or Progressive as being a service provider but they're delivering their service through the internet and they need a cloud platform in which to do that. So that's one part that I find particularly exciting. >> I totally agree with Lew. The one piece I would add is I think we've proven that it's the right infrastructure for the technology of the future, right? That's why we're able to have these additional discussions around edge and additional container technologies and Zuul with containers testing and deployment. It fits right in, so it's not a distraction. It's an addition to our infrastructure. >> I think the idea around, and that's why we actually broke up into these different tracks and had different keynotes around containers and around edge because those are primary use cases now. Two years ago when I think we were talking here, and like NFV and all the telcos were, and now that has succeeded because almost all the NFV deployments now are based on OpenStack. Now we're seeing it go to containers and edge, which are more application specific deployments. >> I'd love for you to connect the dots for us from the NFV stuff we were talking about a couple of years ago to the breadth of edge. There is no edge, it depends on who you are as to what the edge is, kind of like cloud was a few years ago. >> I mean, we actually have a white paper. If you go to OpenStack.org or just Google OpenStack edge white paper, I think you'll see that there are a variety of cases that are from manufacturing, retail, telco, I saw even space, remote driving vehicles and everything else like that. It's where latency really matters. So that we know that cloud computing is the fastest way to deploy and maintain, upgrade new applications, virtualize applications on a cloud. It's unfortunately too far away from many the places that have much more real-time characteristics. So if you're under 40 milliseconds or whatever, or you want to get something done in a VR environment or whatever, under five milliseconds, you can't go back to the cloud. It also, if you have an application, for example, a security monitoring application, whatever. 99% of the time, the video frames are the same and they're not interesting, don't push all that information back into the central cloud. Process it locally, now when you see frames that are changing, or whatever, you only use the bandwidth and the storage in the central cloud. So we're seeing this relationship between what do you want computed at the edge and how much computing can you do as we get more powerful there and then what do you want back in the centralized data centers. >> Daniel: While you simplify the management. >> Exactly right. >> Orchestration, policy. >> But you still need the automation, you need it to be virtualized, you need it to be managed in that way, so you can upgrade it. >> Alan Clark, Lew Tucker, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Thank you, yeah, >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's good to be here. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. And happy to welcome back to the program, fresh off the keynote stage, Mark Collier, who's the chief operating officer of the OpenStack Foundation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me back. >> Thank you for having us back and thank you again for doing the show in Vancouver, so-- >> Oh man, such an amazing place. Like this convention center, I don't think it's fair to call it a convention center because it's like a work of art, you know? >> And it's my second time here for this show, and I think kudos to your team because you have good enough content that people aren't just wandering around, taking pictures of the mountains. My wife is off seizing the whale watching right now, but everybody else here, they're engaged. And that's what you want in the community. >> Yeah, definitely. I guess you have to make sure you don't lose their attention to the whales and the sea planes, but so far everyone seems to be gettin' down to business. >> You know, I think it would be fair to say that there's some transitions going on in the marketplace in general, and at this show I notice when I got the invitation, it's like the OpenStack slash open infrastructure summit. Got a big track on edge computing, got another one on containers, been talking about containers for a few years at this show, which really interesting to talk about. And I mean, the edge stuff, we were talking about it as NFV and the telcos and all that stuff in the past. What is the OpenStack Summit these days, Mark? >> Yeah, I mean I think that it's evolving to reflect what people are doing with open source when it comes to infrastructure. And so we call it open infrastructure, but basically it's just a world of possibilities have been opened up by, of course, OpenStack, but also many, many other components, some of which came before like Linux and things like that, and some of which started after, like Kubernetes, and there's many other examples, TensorFlow for AI machine learning. So there's kind of this like embarrassment of riches these days if yo want to automate your infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. You can do so many more things with it, and OpenStack solves a very specific, very important layer which is that kind of traditional infrastructure as a service layer, compute storage and networking. But once you automate that, it's proven, it's reliable, you could run millions of cores with it like some of our users are doing. You want to do more and that means layering other things on top or sort of connecting them in different ways. So just trying to help users get something more out of the technology is really what we're about and OpenStack becomes like an enabler rather than kind of like the whole conversation. Yeah, one of the things I always say in this industry, sometimes we just don't have the right expectations going into these environments. You know, when I think back 15 years ago as to what we thought Linux was going to do. Oh it's going to crush Microsoft. It's like, well, Microsoft is still doing quite well and Linux has done phenomenal. We wouldn't have companies like, Google if it wasn't for the likes of Linux. In an open source you've got a lot of tools out there. So while there are the CERNs and Walmarts of the world that take a full OpenStack distribution and put out tons of cores, I've run into software companies where when I dig into their IP, oh what do ya know, there's a project from OpenStack in there that enables what they're doing. So I've seen at a lot of shows they're like, there's companies that are like, yes, I want it, and then there's like, oh no, there's this piece of it I want, there's that piece what I want. And that's kind of the wonder of OpenStack that I can do all of those things. >> Yeah exactly. I think we've talked before about sort of calling it composable open infrastructure, and making, OpenStack's always been architecturally designed from, in terms of the goals around it, to be pluggable so from the beginning you could plug multiple hypervisors kind of underneath and you could plug different backends for storage and networking, so that sort of concept of being something, integration engine that plugs things in is part of the OpenStack kind of philosophy, but now you see that the OpenStack services themselves are sort of, you can think of them as microservices, and like if you just need block storage you can use sender. And that may make sense for some specific environments, and are you running OpenStack? Well, you are, but it gets a little bit fuzzy in terms of are you running all of it or part of it? And the reality is the things are not as simple as a binary yes or no. It's just that the options are much greater now. >> Well Mark, that has been some of the discussion in the community over the last few years, the core versus the big tent, and now of course with all this interoperability, conversations with both OpenStack participating in other communities and other communities here today, this week. I mean, what's the current state of that conversation about what is OpenStack and how does it interrelate? I think you kind of touched on it with this composable idea. >> Yeah, I mean I think that basically it's kind of like OpenStack is as OpenStack does, you know? So what are people doing with it and that tells you kind of what it is and what people are doing with it. There are a lot of different patterns. There's no like one specific deployment pattern that everyone uses, but probably by and large, by far the most common pattern is OpenStack plus Kubernetes. And so when you talk about the interop piece, this is a really good example where OpenStack has evolved to become a better, kind of better citizen, I guess, of open infrastructure by having more reliable APIs, kind of being a target that tools that build on top can rely on and not sort of have to worry about the snowflakes of different clouds and there's still more work to be done in that area, but we talked about OpenLab, which is an initiative, this morning, that puts together OpenStack, Kubernetes, and other pieces like Terraform and things like that, and does constant end-to-end testing on it, and that's really how you make sure that you know kind of what combinations work well together, and sometimes you just find bugs, and it turns out a couple of changes need to be made upstream in Kubernetes or in OpenStack or in gophercloud or in Terraform, and just if you don't know, then the user kind of with the some assembly required model, finds out and they're like, I don't know, it doesn't work, it's broken. Well, is it OpenStack's fault or Kubernetes's fault, and they don't, they just want it to work. >> So you're saying >> Identified upstream we can fix it. >> You're saying OpenStack has become more of a stable layer of the (mumbles). >> Yes exactly, yes. It has become a much more stable layer. >> Which means there wasn't a whole lot of flashy storage network and compute up on stage actually. >> A lot of the talk-- >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I think it's just really proven in that way, and you know, one of the things that was highlighted was like the virtual GPUs, right? So, if OpenStack is designed to be pluggable, what do people want to have as an option now in terms of compute storage and networking, on the compute side is they want GPUs, because that gives an AI machine learning much faster, if they're bit coin miners, like I'm sure you all are in your basement, they're going to want GPUs. And what was really interesting is that the PTL, like the technical leader of the Nova Project, got up and talked about virtual GPUs. I was back in the green room and like three of the other keynote speakers were like, oh man, we are so excited about this VGPU support. Like, our customers are asking for it, the guy, Mohammad from Vexos, is the CEO of Vexos, he said, our customers are demanding this queens release, which is the latest OpenStack, and we were kind of surprised, they just really want this queens release. So we asked them why and they're like well they want VGPU. So that's kind of an example of an evolution in OpenStack itself, but it's an extension, enabler for things like GPUs, and that's kind of an exciting area as well. >> You know, it's interesting because in previous years it was the major release was one of the main things we talked about. Queens, as you mentioned, other than the VGPUs and that little discussions, spent a lot more time outside, talked to a lot of the users. You talked about the new tracks that were there. And something I heard a lot this year that I hadn't heard for a few years was, get involved, we're looking to build. And I was trying to think of a sports analogy, and maybe it was like, okay, we're actually building more of a league here and we're looking to recruit as opposed to or is it rebuilding what exactly OpenStack 2.0 is in the future? >> Yeah, that's a really interesting point. You're absolutely right, and I can imagine or can remember sort of talking to some of the speakers as they were working on their content, and I don't think I totally picked up that that was a big trend, but you're absolutely right, that was a major call to action from so many different people. I think it's because when we think about what we are as a community, I talked about how we're a community of people who build and operate open infrastructure, and it's really about solving problems, and if you're as open to community collaboration and you want to solve problems, you can't be afraid to stand up and say we have problems. And sometimes maybe that feels awkward. It's like the tech 101 is get up and say you solved all the problems and you should buy it today. It's online or downloaded or whatever. And I think we just realized that the magic of our community is solving problems. There's always going to be more problems to solve, now you're putting more pieces together, which means the pieces themselves have to evolve and the testing and integration has to evolve. Like it's just a new set of challenges and sort of saying, here's what we're trying to solve, it's not done, help us, actually is more, I think, true to kind of what the community is all about. >> I'm wondering, do we know how many people are at the show this year? >> I don't have the exact count. I think it's around 2600, something like that. >> Yeah, so fair to say it might be a little bit less than last year's North America show? >> Yeah, it is a little bit less. >> And what are you hearing from the user? What are the main things they come for? That you got the new tracks, you've got the open dev conference co-located. What kind of key themes can you get from the users? >> Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we found is that we have twice as many cloud architects this year than a year ago. So I think there's always this period of time where conference attendance is driven by curiosity. Like, I've heard about this thing, what is it, or it's the cool factor, hype curves and all that stuff, I want to learn about it. At this point people know what OpenStack is. We've got tons of ways you can learn about it. There's local meetups, there's OpenStack Days all over the world, there's content, videos online. It's just not like a mystery anymore. Like the mystery draws in kind of the people that are just poking around to learn. Now we're at that point of, okay I know what it is, I know what it's for, I want to architect a solution around it, so seeing twice as many cloud architects I think is an interesting data point to think about how we're shifting more towards, people are not asking if it's proven, they're like it's been proven for whatever, two, three years, however, the perception is, but the technology is just very, very solid. It's running infrastructure all over the world, the largest banks and so on and so, I think that's kind of how things are shifting to what else can we do and put on top of it, now that it's a solid foundation. >> I wonder, sometimes there's that buzz as to what's going on out there. There was a certain large analyst firm that wrote a report a couple months ago that wasn't all that favorable about OpenStack. There's others that watching on Twitter during the keynote, and they're like, they're spending all their time talking about containers, why isn't this just part of the Cloud Native Con, KubCon show? What's the foundation's feedback on, what are you hearing kind of, what's your core deliverables? And why this show should continue in the future? >> Sure, I mean I think that what we're hearing generally from users and seeing in our data as well as from analysts like 451 and IDC, those are a couple of different reports coming out, like right now or just came out, that Jonathan mentioned this morning, I think is adoption just continues to grow, and so you know, I think people are not looking at just one technology stack. And maybe they never were, but I think there was this kind of temptation to just think of it, is it containers versus VMs or is it Kubernetes versus OpenStack? And it's like, no one who really runs infrastructure thinks like that because they might have thought it until they tried it, they realized these things go together. So I think the future of this conference is just becoming more and more centered around what are the use cases? What are the technical challenges we're trying to solve? And to the extent we're getting patterns and tools that are emerging like the lamp stack of the cloud, so to speak. How can people adopt them? So you think about cloud as taking all kinds of new forms, edge computing, those are the kinds of things that I think will become a bigger part of the conference in the future. I do like the open infrastructure angle on this. I mean, as infrastructure folks, right, you know that that storage compute network doesn't manage itself, doesn't configure itself. >> Mark: Totally. >> Doesn't provision itself. And so a lot of the app layer things should rely on this lower layer. And I thought last year in Boston there was this kind of curious OpenStack or containers conversation, which seemed odd at the time, and that's clarified, I think, at a number of levels from a number of camps and vendors. >> Yeah I agree, I think we have done our best from our point of view, from the foundation, myself, and the others that are involved in our community to try to dispell those myths or tamper down that kind of sense of a rivalry, but it takes time and I do feel like there is kind of a sea change now. There are just so many people running in production with various container tools, predominantly Kubernetes and in OpenStack that I think that that sort of myth that they're, that one's replacing the other, it's hard for that cognitive dissonance to last forever when you're given like the hundredth example of like somebody running in production at scale. Like they must be doing it for a reason, and then people start to go, well why is that? >> And I did like the comment you did make about cloud is not consolidating and simplifying, right? Even at the Dell Technologies World show, Michael Dell got up and talked about the distributed core, which is a little bit of an oxymoron, but the fact is compute and compute is everywhere, right? And it's not only, it's on the edge, it's on telephone poles, it's in little boxes in our, you know, going to be on our walls, in our walls, right? And this open infrastructure idea can play everywhere. It's not just about an on-prem data center anymore. >> Yeah and I think that's a big part of why we started to say open infrastructure instead of cloud, just because, I mean, you know, I guess we spent 10 years arguing over the definition of cloud, now we can argue over open infrastructure. But to me it's a little more descriptive and a little less kind of, I don't know, a little less baggage than the term cloud. >> Yeah, definitely differentiates it as to where you sit in the marketplace. And one thing I definitely want to give the foundation great kudos on, the diversity of this show is excellent. Not just that there was a welcome happy hour and there's a lunch, but look at all the PTLs, the project leads that are there, a lot of diversity, up on stage. It's just evident. >> Mark: Thank you. >> And it's just something kind of built into the community, so great job there. >> Thank you, I'm very proud of the fact that we had just so many excellent keynote speakers this morning, and you know, that's always something that we strive for, but I feel like we got closer to the goal than ever in terms of just getting broad representation up on the stage. And some amazing leaders. >> It's always nice from our standpoint because we always say give us your keynote speakers and give us some of the main people making things happen, and it just naturally flows that we have a nice diversity, from gender, from geography. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> From various backgrounds, so that's good. All right, want to give you the final word. Take aways that you want people after the show or maybe some things that people might not know if they didn't make it here for the show. >> I mean, I think, you know, the number one take away is it's all about the people, and we want to make it about the headlines or the technology, and even the technology is about the people, but certainly the operators are not, like I said, logos don't operate clouds or infrastructure, people do, so getting to meet the people, seeing what they're doing, like the Adobe I mentioned, they're marketing cloud. They have 100,000 cores of compute with four people operating it. So if you've got the right four people and the right playbook, you can do that, too. But you got to meet those people and find out how they're doing it, get their recipe, get their playbook, and they're happy to share it, and then you can run at that kind of scale, too, without a big team and you can change the way you operate. >> Yeah, I know I said in my last question, but the last thing, I know there's been a big emphasis to not just do the two big shows a year, but the OpenStack days and other events globally, give people, how do they get involved and where can they come to find out more? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked because, there are so many ways to get involved and of course it's online, it's IRC, it's mailing lists 24/7, but there's no substitute when it's about the people for meeting in person. So we have the two summits a year. We're also having an event which is called the PTG, which is really for the developers and some of the operators will be coming this fall as well where we're having it in Denver, but the summits are the big shows twice a year, but the OpenStack days are really important. Those are annual, typically one to two day events, in 15 plus countries around the world. One in particular that is going to be really exciting this year is in Beijing. You know, we've had that for the last couple of years. Huge event, but of course, others throughout Europe and Asia. Tokyo is always an awesome OpenStack day, and then there are quite a few in Europe as well. So that's another way you can get involved. Not necessarily have to fly around the world, but if you do have to fly around the world, being in Vancouver is not a bad spot, so. >> Yeah, absolutely, and boy we know there's a lot of OpenStack happening in China. >> Yes there is. >> So Mark Collier, thanks again to the foundation for allowing theCUBE to cover this. >> Sure. >> And thanks so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back here with lots more of three days wall-to-wall coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music) (shutter clicks)

[Music] from San Francisco it's the covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat everyone welcome back is the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco Red Hat summit 2018 I'm Sean furry co-host of the cube with my coasts analyst this week John Troyer who's the co-founder of tech reckoning advisory and Community Development firm our next guess is red hash Balakrishnan is the general manager of OpenStack for Red Hat welcome to the cube good to see you ready to be here so OpenStack is very hot obviously with the with the with the trends we've been covering from day one been phenomenal to watch that grow and change but with kubernetes you seeing cloud native to robust communities you got application developers and you got under the hood infrastructure so congratulations and you know what's what's the impact of that what is how is OpenStack impacted by the cloud native trend and what is Red Hat doing they're the best epidermis ation of that is openshift on OpenStack if you had caught the keynotes earlier today there was a demo that we did whereby they were spawning open shifts on bare metal using OpenStack and then you run open shift on power that's what we kind of see as the normed implementation for customers looking to get - I want an open infrastructure on Prem which is OpenStack and then eventually want to get to a multi cloud application platform on top of it that makes up the hybrid cloud right so it's a essential ingredient to the hybrid cloud that customers that are trying to get to and open shifts role in this is what I'm assuming we are asked about openshift ownerships will be multi cloud from a application platform perspective right so OpenStack is all about the infrastructure so as long as you're worrying about info or deployment management lifecycle that's going to be openstax remet once you're thinking about applications themselves the packaging of it the delivery of it and the lifecycle of it then you're in openshift land so how do you bring both these things together in a way that is easier simpler and long-standing is the opportunity and the challenge in front of us so the good news is customers are already taking us there and there's a lot of production workflow is happening on OpenStack but I got to ask the question that someone might ask who hasn't been paying attention in a year or so it was thick hey OpenStack good remember that was what's new with OpenStack what would you say that person if they asked you that question about what's new with OpenStack the answer would be something along the lines of boring is the new normal right we have taken the excitement out of OpenStack you know the conversations are on containers so OpenStack has now become the open infrastructure that customers can bring in with confidence right so that's kind of the boring Linux story but you know what that's what we thrive on right our job as reddit is to make sure that we take away the complexities involved in open source innovation and make it easy for production deployment right so that's what we're doing with OpenStack too and I'm glad that in five years we've been able to get here I definitely I think along with boring gos clarity right last year the cube was that OpenStack summit will be there again in two weeks so with you and I enjoy seeing you again for it the last year there was a lot of you know containers versus there was some confusion like where people got sorted out in their head oh this is the infrastructure layer and then this is the a play I think now people have gotten it sorted out in their head open open shipped on OpenStack very clear message so a meaning of the community in two weeks in any comments on the growth of the open OpenStack community the end users that are there the the depth of experience it seemed like last year was great everywhere for OpenStack on the edge it ended you know set top devices and pull top devices all the way to OpenStack in in private data centers and and for various security or logistical reasons where is OpenStack today yeah I think that he phrased would be workload optimization so OpenStack has now evolved to become optimized for various workloads so NFV was a workload that people were talking about now people are in when customers are in production across the globe you know beat Verizon or the some of the largest telcos that we have in any and a pack as well the fact that you can actually transform the network using OpenStack has become real today now the conversation is going from core of the data center to the edge which is radio networks so the fact that you can have a unified fabric which can transcend from data center all the way to a radio and that can be OpenStack is a you know great testament to the fact that a community has rallied around OpenStack and you know delivering on features that customers are demanding pouring is the new normal of that is boring implies reliable no-drama clean you know working if you had to kind of put a priority in a list of the top things just that it are still being worked on I see the job is never done with infrastructure always evolving about DevOps certainly shows that with programmability what are the key areas still on the table for OpenStack that are that are key discussion points where there's still innovation to be done and built upon I think the first one is it's like going from a car to a self-driving car how can we get that infrastructure to autonomously manage itself we were talking about network earlier even in that context how do you get to a implementation of OpenStack that can self manage itself so there's a huge opportunity to make sure that the tooling gets richer to be able to not just deploy manage but fine-tune the infrastructure itself as we go along so clearly you know you can call it AI machine learning implementation you on OpenStack to make sure that the benefit is occurring to the administrator that's an opportunity area the second thing is the containers and OpenStack that we taught touched upon earlier OpenShift on OpenStack in many ways is going to be the cookie cutter that we're gonna see everywhere there's going to be private cloud if you've got a private cloud it's gotta be an open shift or on OpenStack and if it's not I would like to know why right it's a it becomes a de-facto standard you start to have and they enablement skills training for a few folks as you talk to the IT consumer right the the IT admins out there you know what's the message in terms of upskilling and managing say an OpenStack installation and and what does Red Hat doing to help them come along yeah so those who are comfortable with Braille Linux skills are able to graduate easily over to OpenStack as well so we've been nationally focused on making sure that we are training the loyal Linux installed based customers and with the addition of the fact that now the learnings offerings that we have are not product specific but more at the level of the individual can get a subscription for all the products that reddit has you could get learning access to learning so that does help make sure that people are able to graduate or evolve from being able to manage Linux to manage a cloud and the and face the brave new world of hybrid cloud that's happening in front of our eyes but let's talk about the customer conversations you're having as the general manager of the stack red hat what what are the what's the nature of the conversations are they talking about high availability performance or is it more under the hood about open shift and containers or they range across the board depending upon the use cases whose they do range but the higher or the bit is that applications is where the focuses well closes where the focus is so the infrastructure in many ways needs to get out of the way to make sure that the applications can be moving from the speed of thought to execution right so that's where the customer conversations are going so which is kind of ties back to the boring is the new normal as well so if we can make sure that OpenStack is boring enough that all the energy is focused on developing applications that are needed for the enterprise then I think the job is done self-driving OpenStack it means when applications are just running and that self-healing concepts you were talking about automation is happening exactly that's the opportunity in front of us so you know it's by N's code by code we will get there I think I love the demo this morning which showed that off right bare metal stacks sitting there on stage from different vendors right actually you're the you know OpenStack is the infrastructure layer so it's it's out there with servers from Dell and HP II and others right and then booting up and then the demo with the with Amadeus showing you know OpenStack and public clouds with openshift all on top also showed how it fit into this whole multi cloud stack is it is it challenging to to be the layer with with the hardware hardware heterogeneous enough at this point that OpenStack can handle it are there any issues they're working with different OEMs and if you look at the history of red add that's what we've done right so the rel became rel because of the fact that we were able to abstract multi various innovation that was happening at the so being able to bring that for OpenStack is like we've got you know that's the right to swipe the you know employee card if you will right so I think the game is going back to what you were only talking about the game is evolving to now that you have the infrastructure which abstracts the compute storage networking etc how do you make sure that the capacity that you've created it's applied to where the need is most right for example if you're a telco and if you're enabling Phi G IOT you want to make sure that the capacity is closest to where the customer fool is right so being able to react to customer needs or you know the customers customers needs around where the capacity has to be for infrastructure is the programmability part that we've you know we can enable right so that's a fascinating place to get into I know you are technology users yourself right so clearly you can relate to the fact that if you can make available just enough technology for the right use case then I think we have a winner at hand yeah and taking as you said taking the complexity out of it also means automating away some of those administrative roles and moving to the operational piece of it which developers want to just run their code on it kind of makes things go a little faster and and so ok so I get that and I but I got to ask the question that's more Redhead specific that you could weigh in on this because this is a real legacy question around red hats business model you guys have been very strong with rel the the the record speaks for itself in terms of warranty and and serviceability you guys give like I mean how many years is it now like a zillion years that support for rel OpenStack is boring is Red Hat bringing that level of support now how many years because if I use it I'm gonna need to have support what's the Red Hat current model on support in terms of versioning xand the things that you guys do with customers thank you for bringing that up what have you been consciously doing is to make sure that we have lifecycle that is meeting two different customers segments that we are talking about one is customers who want to be with the latest and the greatest closer to the trunk so every six months there is an openstack released they want to be close enough they want to be consuming it but it's gotta be production ready in their environment the second set of customers are the ones who are saying hey look the infrastructure part needs to stay there cemented well and then every maybe a couple of years I'll take a real look at you know bringing in the new code to light up additional functionality or on storage or network etc so when you look at both the camps then the need is to have a dual life cycle so what we have done is with OpenStack platform 10 which is two years ago we have a up to five year lifecycle release so obvious that platform 10 was extensible up to five years and then every two releases from there 11 and 12 are for just one year alone and then we come back to again a major release which is OSP 13 which will be another five years I know it can be and they get the full Red Hat support that they're used to that's right so there are years that you're able to either stay at 10 or you could be the one who's going from 10 to 11 to 12 to 13 there are some customers were saying staying at 10 and then I won't go over to 13 and how do you do that we'll be a industry first and that's what we have been addressing from an engineering perspective is differentiated - I think that's a good selling point guy that's always a great thing about Red Hat you guys have good support give the customers confidence or not you guys aren't new to the enterprise and these kinds of customers so right - what are you doing here at the show red hat summit 2018 what's on your agenda what some of the hallway conversations you're hearing customer briefings obviously some of the keynote highlights were pretty impressive what going on for you it's a Volvo OpenShift on OpenStack that's where the current and the future is and it's not something that you have to wait for the reality is that when you're thinking about containers you might be starting very small but the reality is that you're going to have a reasonably sized farm that needs to power all the innovation that's going to happen in your organization so given that you need to have an infrastructure management solution thought through and implemented on day one itself so that's what OpenStack does so when you can roll out OpenStack and then on top of it bring in openshift then you not only have to you're not only taking care of today's needs but also as you scale and back to the point we were talking about moving the capacity where is needed you have a elastic infrastructure that can go where the workload is demanding the most attention so here's another question that might come up from when I asked you and you probably got this but I'll just bring it up anyway I'm a customer of OpenStack or someone kicking the tires learning about deploying up a stack I say ritesh what is all this cloud native stuff I see kubernetes out there what does that mean for me visa V OpenStack and all the efforts going on around kubernetes and above and the application pieces of the stack right let's say if you looked at the rear view mirror five years ago when we looked at cloud native as a contract the tendency was that hey look I need to be developing net new applications that's the only scenario where cloud native would be thought thought off now fast forward five years now what has happened is that cloud native and DevOps culture has become the default if you are a developer if you're not sort of in that ploughed native and DevOps then you are working on yesterday's problem in many ways so if digital transformation is urging organizations to drive - as cloud native applications then cloud native applications require an infrastructure that's fungible inelastic and that's how openshift on OpenStack again coming back to the point of that's the future that customers can build on today and moving forward so summarize I would say what I heard you saying periphery if I'm wrong open ship is a nice bridge layer or an up bridge layer but a connection point if you bet on open ship you're gonna have best of both worlds that that's a good summary and you gotta be you know betting on open first of all is the first order a bet that you should be making once you've bet on open then the question is you gotta bet on an infrastructure choice that's OpenStack and you gotta bet on an application platform choice that's open shift once you've got both of these I think then the question is what are you going to do with your spare time okay count all the cash you're making from all the savings but also choice is key you get all this choice and flexibility is a big upside I would imagine British thanks for coming on sharing your insight on the queue appreciate it thanks for letting us know what's going on and best of luck see you in Vancouver thank you for having okay so the cube live coverage here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 John four with John Troy you're more coverage after this short break

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Dell Technologies World 2018 here in Las Vegas. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost Keith Townsend. Happy to welcome to the program first time guest, Kevin Shatzkamer, who's the Vice President of Service Provider Strategy and Solutions with Dell EMC. Kevin thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first time on the program, give us a little bit about your background, you know, what brought you to the Dell family of technical companies. >> Sure, absolutely. I've been in the service provider industry, supporting and working with service providers, about 20 years, working in areas first at the launch of 2G mobile data services, 3G, 4G. Now, we're at the advent of 5G. And during the entire time what we've continued to witness is this continued move away from proprietary more towards open technologies, obviously moving away from proprietary hardware appliances more towards X86-based appliances. The networking stacks moving more and more open in the last 18 months. During my journey here at Dell EMC, it was an opportunity to really come in and recognize Dell EMC and Dell Technologies family of companies as the foundational technologies for how we watch the telco industry really transform itself and start to embrace IT transformation into their own operations. >> Yeah, that's a great background. Keith and I had a great discussion with Tom Burns talking about networking. We've been watching the open networking feeds, but we haven't gotten into all the G's as much. Explain to our audience, we've got Interrupt down the street, we've done coverage of Mobile World Congress, but 5G, some of the standards are there, but some of the things are going to sort out. These type of transitions do take years to go, but why so important and how does Dell play into the story? >> I think if we go back towards kind of the 2012 timeframe, I think there were two acronyms that really came to the forefront. It was SDN and it was NFV. And at the time it was really discussed in the lens of how we saw the second half of 4G materializing and recognizing that for the second half of 4G with the early days of IoT, the economics of how you operate the network needed to change drastically. We saw some of that start to happen when we look at NFV in the industry, I think there's a little bit of trough of disillusionment out there, and I think we see some use cases that have been successful. We've seen some challenges in terms of operationalizing NFV at scale. I think SDN to date has really been confined to sitting within the data center or interconnecting servers and building overlay technologies for the data centers. But what I expect to see now as we go into 5G is not the need for incremental improvement but the need for an absolute step function in terms of performance, in terms of reliability, in terms of reduction in latency, all at a drastically different cost economics. So now when we start to think about the second wave of NFV and we think about SDN leaving the data center, I think that's where we're going to see 5G really play a lead. From taking some of the technologies we've been talking about in siloed pockets and really see them move to scaled operations. >> So, you mentioned a lot of the telco space and in this environment, I've got familiarity with how EMC used to work with the service providers. Dell, of course you know, plays up and down and all over the place. What's the relationship with the telcos and the service providers from the Dell family? >> I think when Dell Technology speaks about the four transformations, we talk about workforce transformation, IT transformation, digital transformation and security transformation. I think all of those are opportunities for the telcos and service providers in two ways. One, is recognizing that their own network operations are transforming and that embracing the concepts of the IT transformation inside of their own operations, obviously with the telco grade reliability, is an area that we work very closely with the telecos and SPs around. The second part is recognizing that the digital transformation and the shift towards digital for most of small medium business will be recognized through service providers, through cloud technologies. So the second way we work very closely with these service providers is helping them build the services that allow them to capture digital transformation as it moves off-prem into the cloud. >> Can you provide some clarity or vision into the service provider space, when it comes to the need for innovation to make that step transformation to 5G? With an enterprise we can see VMware NSX and we're blown away by it and that's way beyond what a lot of customers need, but there's still a lot of work to go through to your point. What are some of those innovations that have to happen? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think if you're at Mobile World Congress and just about any tradeshow event, and even Michael Dell's keynote this morning at Dell Technologies World, the conversation of the edge came up. I think that there's still a lot of debate around what the edge is, and I know that the conversation came up around distribution of compute. But I think that the conversation is really around decentralization. If we've looked over the last five years as cloud services like AWS and Microsoft Azure, IBM SoftLayer, various others, have really been built. They've been built around a model that said that to achieve efficiency and scale you have to build massively scaled centralized data centers. Now it turns out that low latency, highly interactive services that are very data driven just don't work well when the distance between the applications and the users consuming those applications is really large. Latency is too high, jitter's too high, it's a little bit too unpredictable. I think that the number one iteration, the number one innovation that we will see in the network's is the innovation at the edge. Now, the edge can be on-prem, it can sit on-prem at stadiums and venues. It can sit at the cell site, it can sit in the mobile backbone network, it can sit at central office locations. I think what we'll continue to see is recognition of, not necessarily, if you build it, they will come model, but recognition that there is a class of services and applications that the edge just makes sense to rally around. And we'll see the edge become the new cloud. >> We talk about NFV, the edge, shed some light, what would a CPE device look like at the edge? Is that NFV running on the customer's virtualized infrastructure, is that truly some x86 box that the service provider puts in place that's provided by Dell? Paint a clearer picture, I hope, for the edge. >> So the answer is yes. >> Keith: I was afraid you'd say that, It's a CPE that sits on the branch and at the enterprise prem right. Dell EMC and Mobile World Congress and most recently announced our Virtual Edge Platform family of products with the first platform being the Virtual Edge Platform 4600. The industry's first Skylake-D platform, specifically targeting the access and branch edge. But in addition to that, I think that what we're going to see is in the central office locations the boundaries between what is a compute device and what is a network device really start to blur. That modular servers, that include x86 and merchant silicon and FPGA to terminate certain circuit switch workloads, like cloud LAN and smart NICs to be able to process data on the NIC itself are really going to start to come to the forefront. Maybe we see GPU start to be included in that as well for more machine learning and artificial intelligence use cases. But I think that going forward the end goal of the programmability that we talked about, both at the application layer as well as at the infrastructure layer, means that the boundaries between what's a server, and what's a network device, really start to blur. >> Last question I have for you. When I talk to service providers, it feels like that they're being pulled from both sides. On the one side, there's public cloud, lots of them are figuring out how to do direct connect, work to integrate into those services for VMware's partnering with them on that. On the other side, there's all this edge stuff that you've been talking about. You know, massive footprint and there's so many pieces that they need to think about. What do you hear from your customers? What's their biggest challenges and opportunities that they're facing? >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think that when customers are being torn and service providers are being torn in the way that they are, they somewhat retreat to an or mindset, right. Is it this or this, do I live in the public cloud or do I live at my edge? Do I live in an open source environment or do I embrace technologies coming from industry vendors? I think more and more what we're seeing is a transition to an end environment and recognition that certain applications and workloads are well suited to reside in particular locations. Michael said in his keynote this morning that the cloud is not a place, it's a business model. I think that what we actually see is even extending that thought a little further, is that the cloud is just a whole bunch of different places. We're going to move services and applications and workloads to the locations that are best able to meet the subscriber experience and deliver on what the applications expect. >> Kevin, really appreciate your help giving us an instant insight into one of the more dynamic pieces of the IT industry. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from Dell World 2018. I'm Stu Miniman, this is Keith Townsend. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation; Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. (upbeat synthesizer music) >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my cohost John Troyer. This is The CUBE, worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Coming into the show this year, here, at OpenStack, discussion of edge was something that had a little bit of buzz. Last year's show in Austin, the telecommunication all of the NFV solutions were definitely one of the highlights. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Beth Cohen, who is the SDN and NFV Network Product Strategy at Verizon. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, yes. >> All right, so Beth, I mean, we hear cloud in a box, Edge, all those pieces in the keynote, Monday. People are excited, you know, telecommunications. I worked in telecom back in the '90s. I'm excited to see that people are getting involved and looking at this, but before we get into all the tech, just tell us, briefly, about you and your role inside Verizon. >> Sure. So, I actually work at Verizon as a New Product Strategist, so I come up with new products, so I do product management. This is actually my second product for Verizon. The previous one was Secure Cloud Interconnect which is a very successful product. Who would have thought that connecting privately to the cloud would be a good idea? It turns out, everybody thinks that's an excellent idea, but I worked in telecom back, for GTE, back in the 1990s and through BBN, so I've been in this industry for a while and I've always stayed kind of on the cutting edge of things, so I'm very excited to be working on these cutting-edge projects within Verizon. >> All right, so speaking of cutting edge, let's cut to the Edge. >> Beth: Cut to the Edge (laughs). >> And, give our audience a little bit about what the announcement was, >> Sure. >> the actual product itself. >> So, Virtual Network Services, is the product. We originally announced it in July with a universal CP box. That box was not a, what we're calling a white box which I think is the industry term, now. That one was based on the Juniper NFX250 which is, we call, a gray box, so it's using the Juniper NFX software, but the new, new announcement is this is truly a white box. It's an x86 box. It's generic, any x86 will work, and, in fact, the product has, we realized, actually, working with customers that some customers want to have a very small box, very small footprint, low cost, that only supports maybe two, possibly three, NFVs, Virtual Network Functions, all the way up to our largest box, is 36 core. So, we have four core at the bottom, so that's used for the coffee shops or the small retail-type functions where they're only looking for security in routing or security in SDN or SD-WAN or whatever, so very small, compact use all the way up to 36 core which can support, you know, 10 or 12 different functions, so load balancing, routing, security, whatever you want, >> Yeah. >> cloud in a box. >> There's so many pieces of OpenStack and they've been, for years, talking about the complexity. This, really, if I understand it right, I mean, it's OpenStack at the edge in a small box, so how do we kit such a complicated thing in a little box and what kind of functionality does that bring? You know, what will customers get with it? >> So, obviously, it's, we didn't take old everything, >> Right. >> of course, so, you know, it does include Neutron for the networking and it does include Nova in the computes and so it has the core components that you need for OpenStack. And, why did we choose that? Because OpenStack really gave us that consistent platform across both out at the edge and also within the core, so we are building the hosted network services platform which we're using internally, as well, to host our, to support our network services and we're also supporting customers on this same platform. So, that gives us the ability to give a customer experience both out at the edge and within the core. So, of course, everybody wants to know the secret source. How did we cram that in? Containers, so we containerize OpenStack. One of the requirements is it had to be a single core, so it is a single core in the box because, of course, particularly in a small box, you want to leave as much space as possible for services that our customers want because the OpenStack is the infrastructure that supports it all. >> That's great, I mean, so, Beth, that was one of the highlights of the whole show, for me, right. I like when tech blows my mind a little bit and the idea of something that we might have run on a some embedded Linux source or embedded OS before, now, it's actually running a whole cloud platform, in a box, in my office, was amazing. As you're looking at the center of the network versus the edge, is that one, to you and to network ops, is that one big cloud, is that a cloud of clouds? What's kind of the architecture? >> Beth: Cloud of clouds. >> Yeah. >> Is it fog? (co-hosts laughing) >> It's, yeah, you could say it is a fog, because one of the things when you pull a network to the edge like that, Verizon lives, I mean, we live and breathe networks and the networks are WANs, Wide Area Networks, right, they're everywhere, so we live and breathe that every day. So, traditionally, as I mentioned in the keynote, is that cloud has been sort of the data center centric, right, and that changes the equation because, if you think about it, most data center centric clouds, the network ends at, there's some mystery thing that happens and the end, right? It just goes to that network router, you know, NNI, network-to-network net router and it just kind of disappears, right? Well, of course, we know what's on the other side, so what we've done is we've said, okay, we have functionality within that data center, but we've expanded that out to the edge and we understand that you can't just have everything sitting in the cloud and then rely on that edge to just work, so you need to move pieces of it out so it's not reliant on that inside data center. So, there's tools back there, but if that data center connection goes away, that function will still work out at the edge. >> That's great. You talked about both SDN and NFV, a big conversation at OpenStack for the last several years. >> Yeah. >> Can you talk a little bit about maybe the state of SDN and NFV and how you all are looking at that and are we there yet? What do we still, >> (laughs) Are we there yet? >> what places do you still see we need to go? >> So, when I worked with the marketing team, they were like, "Oh, we're going to have to use this NFV term. "We have to use the SDN," and when I talk to customers, inevitably, they're like, "What is the NFV stuff?" They have no idea, so, really, at the end of the day, I see NFV as a telco thing. Absolutely, we need it, but we have to translate what that means to customers because all that back-end stuff, as far as they're concerned, that's magic. That's the magic: that we deliver the services. Those packets just arrive, they do what they're supposed to do. So, I say, okay, network services is really what you're talking about, because they understand, "Oh, yeah, I need that security, I need that firewall, "I need that WAN Optimizer, I need that load balancer." That, they understand. >> Yeah. >> Well, Beth, I, with my telecom background, I think of, there's lots of hardware, there's lots of cabling, there's the challenges that you have with wireless and we're talking a lot about 5G, you're talking about software, though, and it's delivering >> Yeah. >> those services that the customer needs, so, right, is that what they ask for? Is it, I need these pieces and now I can do it via software as opposed to before, I had to, you know, we talked, it's the appliances to the software move? >> Right. >> What are the, your customers asking for and how are they embracing this? >> Well, so our customers are very excited. I can't think of a single customer that I have gone to that have said, "Why would I do that?" They're all saying, "No, this is really exciting," and so what they're doing is they're really rethinking the network because they're used to having stacks of boxes, so the appliance base, you know, that was really pioneered back, of course, Cisco sort of pioneered it back in the '90s but I remember talking to Infoblox back in the, oh, like the early 2000s when they came out with DHCP DNS appliance and I was like, "Wow, that's so cool." So, this is sort of the next generation, so why do you need to have six different boxes that do a single thing? Why don't we just make it a cloud in the box and put all those functions together and service chain them? That gives you a lot more flexibility. You're not stuck with that proprietary hardware and then worrying about, I mean, I can't tell you how many customers want to do this for tech refresh. They have end-of-life equipment that the vendor is saying, "Forget it, (laughs) this is 10-year-old equipment. "We're not supporting it anymore." >> Yeah, but what are the security implications, here, though? We've seen the surface area of where attacks can come from just seems to be growing exponentially. I think, I go to the edge, I've got way more devices, there's more vulnerabilities. Your last product, you said, was security. How does security fit into all of this? What are you hearing from your costumers? How do you partner with other people? >> So, security is absolutely paramount to our customers. As I mentioned in the talk, there was a, we did a survey of our customers. Security was absolutely the top priority, but security's a lot more sophisticated, as you said, than it used to be and the vectors for attack are much more sophisticated and so it's not enough to just have a firewall. That's, your attack is, you know, the sqiushy inside and the hard outside, forget it. That's just (laughs)-- >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get it. >> That's just not there anymore. >> Indeed, the moats are gone. They're in the castle. >> Yeah. >> They're in the castle, right. So, for us, it's very appealing to our customers, that, the idea that they can put the security where they need it, so they can put it out at the edge and some of them so want it at the edge and we give them the choice of setting up a sort of a minimal basic firewall or a full-featured next-gen firewall. We also find customers kind of like the brand names, so we offer Palo Alto, Fortinet, Cisco, Juniper and others will be coming, so that appeals to them. They tend to be a shop of one or the other. >> John: All on a software basis? >> All on a software basis. >> Giving them the virtual clients discount? >> Right, yeah, all virtual clients is right. And, you know, at the end of the day, our customers don't actually care about the hardware. For them, it's the service. >> I wanted to take it over to OpenStack itself for a little bit. You know, the great conversation here, this week, has been something about modularization, talking about the ecosystem, talking about containers, both the app layer up on top and the packaging layer down below, which is kind of really cool, as well. How are you seeing the OpenStack community engage with the ecosystem be available to different use cases like this? Right, slim it down, take what you need, leave the rest, different, for a while, the conversation was, there were so many projects and, about everything, and do you feel like OpenStack is going where we need it to go, now, in terms of, again, a usable partner and community to work with? >> I do believe that because, so, my product is really a portfolio, if you think about it, so it's a portfolio of services and I view our use of OpenStack in the same way. So, we're really taking that portfolio of OpenStack services and pulling, you know, putting together the package that we need to deliver the services. So, what's out at the edge, that package of OpenStack services at the edge, that's not the same set of services as what's within the core data center. There's some commonality, but we've chosen the ones that are important to us for the edge and chosen the ones that are important to us for the core. So, I think that the OpenStack community is really embracing this notion and we really welcome that, that thing. Now, what I'm finding is that the vendors that we're supporting, you know, that, in the ecosystem, at the application layer, are still struggling with, "Okay, do we containerize? "Do we support, what do, how do we support it?" I can't tell you how many vendors I've gone to and I said, "If you want to be in our portfolio," and obviously most of them do, you know, Verizon's a big company, "you have to be virtualized. "You have to be able to support, run under OpenStack," and they have to get past that, (laughs) that issue. >> Beth, I noticed in some of your social feeds, you've attended some of the Women at OpenStack event. >> Yes. >> I wonder if you have any comment on the events there and diversity in general in the community? >> So, one of the things I love about OpenStack is it's really, really gone out of its way in, within the open source community, in general, to really focus on the value of diversity and it really does track the number of women that, you know, there's a metric that says the percentage of women at every summit and it's going up and the Women of OpenStack community focus on mentoring, and it's not just women, because mentoring's very important, but it really allows, but women are, have sort of special challenges and minorities have special challenges, as well, and we really try to embrace that fact that you do need a leg up if you're not a 50-year-old white guy (laughs). >> All right, Beth Cohen, really appreciate you joining us. Congratulations on the keynote, the product and wish you the best of luck going forward. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston. For John and myself, thanks for watching The CUBE. (upbeat synthesizer music)

>> Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost this week, John Troyer, here at the OpenStack Summit in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back to the program, Lee Doyle, who is Principal Analyst with Doyle Research. Lee, nice to see you. >> Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so networking's your main space. >> Lee: Absolutely >> We've talked about networking for a bunch of years here at the show. Last year: telecommunication, NFV. This year, it seem like half the people on the main stage worked for, you know, some big Telco, and NFV, buzz on the edge. Before we get into some of the initial pieces, what's your take on the OpenStack community, in general, and the show? We're gettin' towards the end so what's your take been this week? >> Always great to have the show in Boston, my hometown. OpenStack and telecom have been going together hand in hand since the beginning of OpenStack, really, and a lot of contributions and use to the big service providers who are here, AT&T, Verizon, some others. So OpenStack's really becoming a good platform for their NFV and virtualization modernization efforts. >> Before we get into some of the cool, new stuff. Core networking, I mean, Neutron's one of those things we've been banging on for years. It seems like it's matured to a bit, But always the one, I mean, networking's never done, right? We're always cranking on it, doing new things. What do you hear about the stability? What the community hears? Is the networking thriving good? Any feedback you've had. >> Sure, no, it was good question and always a question that I ask folks. I think we've seen significant maturity in Neutron. It's stable, it performs, it does a lot of things we expect networks to do, but there still are third party network solutions. If you look at Big Switch or Cumulus or others, say, you don't want to use Neutron or you want to enhance it, feel free to work with us to provide even better networking. >> In a broad trend, companies you mentioned, they're software companies. >> Lee: Absolutely. >> Networking is like boxes and cabling and things like that. How is that software-eating-the-world stack up when it comes to the network space? >> I think the majority of the value in networking, as in IT, is in software, right? The majority of the revenue is in boxes, which are hardware and software integrated. So, from a technology standpoint, it's very software driven. From a market standpoint, it's still box driven. We're in between those two and that's what makes this a very interesting point in time. >> Maybe you could tease apart for us a little bit, for people on the enterprise side, they're used to hearing the letters SDN, right? >> Lee: Right. >> Here, if you're talking to telecom NFV, slightly different takes on some similar problems about service, management, and delivery. >> Lee: Right. >> In OpenStack, are the same bits, is Neutron used by the enterprise for SDN in the same way it's used at the network core by the service providers or are these really two different planes that are developing? >> Right and it's a bit of a complex question. At Doyle Research, what I've done to simplify, is talking about software based networking. So that includes SDN, that includes NFV. Those things overlap and we'll get very hung up, like, what does SDN mean? It's separation control and data plane. What does network function virtualization mean? What's an Etsy telecom standard for taking boxes in the telecom network and turning them into software? So, I try to get away from that and move towards: ok, what is it we're trying to accomplish? Well, with OpenStack, we're trying to deliver networking. It's going to be in software. There still might be, and probably is, some form of Ethernet switch or other box that's moving the bits, right? So, the way I think about it is some of the SDN products that I mentioned, like Cumulus or Big Switch, would be enhancements to something that's a core function of OpenStack, which I wouldn't traditionally call SDN, but that's my view. >> Lee, speak to us, what have you heard about Edge? It was one of those things we heard, the buzz coming in. There's a couple different definitions. The telecommunication people have a very, you know: that's the edge of our network. When I talked to enterprise people, it's IoT and sensors. So what are you hearing about Edge? How's network play across all those? >> Right, well, Edge is very much how you define it or which environment you're talking about, right? Traditionally, in the telecom world, you've got your core of your network and you've got your edge of the network and how that's defined in between because you have network capabilities all throughout the environment. SD-WAN is by far been the hottest technology, not just in terms of buzz, but in terms of actual deployment both in enterprise and service provider. In the service provider space, that sort of blurs into what the vCPE offerings are. So you hear: Verizon, Telefonica just made an announcement, went with Nuage on that. So you can go through all the major service providers. Either they're incorporating SD-WAN functionality into their VCP or they're announcing SD-WAN functionality separately. >> Is there any connection between the SD-WAN stuff and OpenStack I hadn't heard or talked about. Of course, hot technology. We covered Riverbed's announcements. Last year, Viptela, been on The Cube a number of times, just acquired by Cisco. Where do you see SDN playing out? Is this the year that it just becomes a feature? Does it still stay as a distinct market segment? >> On the OpenStack question. OpenStack's traditionally sort of a cloud-based, the bigger data center thing. There are elements you can use and leverage from OpenStack at the edge. In terms of SD-WAN, we're at the hockey-stick phase. The market's going straight up, starting to see wide-scale deployments across a large number of verticals. Usually, the verticals that have lots of branches. So you look at financial services, you look at retail, but you can extend to government, and healthcare, and anywhere where you're trying to do a lot of connectivity between distributed environments. And the real change is that, previously, you do a hub-and-spoke network. You get MPLS, you take the information from the branch and you move it to your corporate data center or data centers. Well now, cloud, SaaS. The information doesn't need to go to the data center. In fact, if it goes to the data center, you add a lot of latency. So SD-WAN is adding the intelligence, the traffic-steering, the ability to manage multiple networks and to move away from MPLS and towards more cost-effective internet connectivity. So, there's still 25. Viptela was the biggest company taken out recently but there's still 24 other solutions and probably more being announced over the next six months. >> Stu: Wow, 24, huh? >> At least, yeah. >> I'm curious, we talk about hybrid-cloud and multi-cloud and networking's one of the things that sort of tie all of that together. How do thing like Kubernetes, and the public-to-private piece, how's that shaking out in the network space? >> Well, networks have to support multi-cloud environments. They need to support what's happening privately, publicly, VMware, Red Hat, OpenStack obviously, and soon to be containers. Each of those are little bit different. So can you have a network solution that spans all of that? One of the things that VMware is very public about talking about, at this show, is their ability to do the hybrid public-private. Red Hat talks about that and I spent a lot of time last week on that topic as well. >> As you're talking with network engineers, both in service providers and out at the enterprise. We've talked about all this change, we've hyped the cloud, we're now switching from a hardware-centric model to a more software defined, literally. Are you seeing new skillsets needed for these network engineers? Automation, you know, does the job change as we go forward? >> Absolutely, it changes. When you look at a traditional CCIE, which is Cisco certified, that's about Cisco APIs, Cisco boxes, in a world where there's a lot of other software elements and you've got to tie to different orchestration, different management, public-private cloud. There absolutely is different skillsets and there needs to be an evolution and it's on of the challenges of the networking industry because there simply aren't enough people who are familiar with building the new style, software-driven networks as there need to be. >> John: With all this exhilaration and change, how are you seeing people say at the management layer, the management layer of people, the CxO layer, how are they dealing with all this change? You know, new technologies, emerging technologies. Things are not slowing down. >> No and so AT&T has a large-scale, public training program that tries to get its people skilled up to the new technologies. I know a lot of the other Telcos, who have been less public about it, are doing the same. If you go to large network user groups like ONUG, they're talking about new skillsets and how to train there. There's also the organizations. Do you blend compute, storage, application, and networking folks all in the same team. And I know you guys have talked about that previously. How quickly do organizations do that or do they remain relatively traditional. The CIOs are thinking about that, they're reorganizing, but it's not going to be just snap your fingers and hey, everyone's ready for the new software-driven world. >> Yeah, it's a fascinating thing, of course. Networking industry tends to move a little-bit slow. Especially enterprise and we've been talking about fast and agile for a lot of things but that does not characterize that. That being said, feels like things do move faster. What's the general attitude you hear from customers? Are they still reticent to move forward? Others slow to move those processes? You kind of hear, things like security, tend to realize I need to update more, I need to move forward. What do you hear when you're talking to customers, today versus, lets say, only five years ago? >> Sure, we're five years in on NFV and Etsy and I think we're making significant progress. You hear a lot about us at the shows where the Telcos are wanting NFV, but it's still in the initial phases. We've been talking about SDN and the enterprise for about the same amount of time and, you know, mainstream enterprises. The hyper-scale guys, you know: Google, Amazon, Facebook. Yeah, they're already there and they're very innovative and people are following their example and leveraging that. But I just think we're still early in the truly software-driven networking game. >> One of the questions I always have is: What size company you are and what capability do you have? What do you do internally? Versus, do you just adopt a platform that's going to do all that stuff for you? You and I talked about this years ago about network-fabric type of topologies, all the different pieces that went out. There's certain sized organizations, you're going to just go to someone else that can do that. I hear some pieces, Kubernetes might be the same kind of things. Do you see that? People just saying it's not outsourcing anymore, but I'm going to be more strategic, focus on my business, my applications, and let somebody else handle the underlying stuff. >> If IT, or the network, or branch operations is not central to what you do, I think outsourcing makes perfect sense. And that may be outsourcing it to a reseller, or someone to manage it for you, it may still be on-prem. But more and more the workloads are going to the clouds. >> And the reason I move away from outsourcing, the old outsourcing was: my mess for less and this is a more strategic: what piece of the stack do I own or what do I run versus someone else. It's not: I told you this is the exact configuration in something you run. It's: I'm buying x-bandwidth, x-performance, things like that and it's something that's updated a little more frequently. They manage that piece and it's further down the stack than I care to look at. >> Lee: Sure, there's new, managed service providers who look at your WAN and networks, so that comes into play. The leading Telcos would certainly want to play a role here beyond just providing the pipe. They want to take care of your networking challenges for you. So there's a lot of new options for folks who don't want to build and buy and sweat there. >> Do you see a difference between what's going on inside the U.S. and then in the rest of the world in terms of the Telcos, and services they're rolling out, ambitions, and where they want to play? >> There are clearly geographic differences when you get into telecom but it's not as simple as saying: x-geography is doing. You almost have to go operator by operator, there. >> Anything that you've seen here at the show. This is your first summit. You've been following, obviously, the space for a very long time. Anything you've seen here, either sessions, or vendors, or users doing interesting things, or anything that's excited you recently in areas that you're following and are interested? >> Yeah, the passion here for OpenStack is undeniable. You've got a lot of people who are committed to the community, they're aware of the networking challenges, and the significant strides we've made with OpenStack networking, but also where we need to go in the future. So, it's exciting to be here and fun to see everyone. >> Last thing I want to ask, Lee. Is there anything that, advice you want to give the community? Things that you heard of from users or you observed where we should mature over the next iteration of the solution set? >> I think, as a technology-driven community, it's always incumbent on the community to really explain the business benefits and talk about how this technology is really solving real-world problems. And it is, but it's just making that translation, sometimes, is challenging. >> Alright, Lee Doyle, great to catch up with you and, like yourself, thrilled to be here in Boston for a technology show. Hope to have more of these here, as always. It's our second week, back-to-back, here in Boston amongst all the other shows we've been doing at SiliconANGLE Media so, stay tuned. John and I have a few more interviews left as we get to wrap up three days of programming here from the OpenStack summit. Thanks for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston Massachusetts, it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. You're watching The CUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program Darrell Jordan-Smith who's the Vice President of Telecommunications at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here thank you >> All right so Darrell last year at the show you know the telcos were like all in force. I got to interview Verizon. We're going to have Beth who was on the keynote stage on Monday on our coverage tomorrow. I know they're a Red Hat customer. When I hear at Red Hat summit, there were some really big telcos that are red hat customers. So to tell us why telco and OpenStack you know go so well together these days? >> Well telcos are looking for a open source for innovation. They need to change the way that they deliver services today and modernize their network infrastructure to become more agile, and a lot of them are doing that because of 5G, the next generation of services that they will be deploying over their network infrastructure. They can't do that unless they have an agile infrastructure fabric and an agile software capability to deliver those applications over those networks. >> All right well there's a lot to dig into yet. Let's start with NFV was the use case last year. Well 5G IOT definitely want to get into though but my understanding, I simplified it. NFV is just how the telcos can help deliver via software services they have. I mean think about how your set-top box, I can get channels and I can get certain programming. Is that kind of what you see, and how do they do their business model? >> Yeah traditionally, they bought appliances, hardware specific appliances. They put them in network operation centers and many thousands of those around the world. In the US there's tens of thousands of them. They're really moving more to a software based model where they don't necessarily need to buy a fixed appliance with its own silicone. They're going with commercial off-the-shelf x86 based technology and they're actually deploying that in what I call next generation data centers around Open Compute platform being an architecture, where you're looking at storage, compute, networking in a scalable fashion using open source technologies to deploy that in at massive scale. >> Very different from you think about like cloud might be a place where you have services run but the telcos are pushing services with their software out to their consumers. >> Yeah they're changing the core network infrastructure to support that and at the mobile edge in these network operation centers at the edge, they're making those more agile as well in order to push as many services out closely to the customer but also to aggregate content and data that their customers would acquire. So for example, you take a video clip on your phone, there's no point in storing that in the core of the network. You want to maybe store that at the edge, where maybe some of your friends would share it at that point in time, more efficient ways of drive that. >> I wonder if you can expand a little bit. That that term edge because we hear is that the edge of the network? Is that a mobile device? Is that a sensor for IOT in the telecom world? Is it all of the above? >> Well a lot of people use it is all the above but in the context I'm using it, it's at the edge of the network. It's not the device. That is a whole separate set of conversations, and things reach a very IOT-centric. At the moment, the telecommunications companies want to make the edge more efficient. They want to build clouds around the edge. They want to aggregate all those different clouds, and they want to build agile based infrastructure. So similarly to the way that Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google deliver their services today, they need to get into that space in order to be agile enough to develop and deploy their next generation of applications and services. >> So at this point OpenStack in its evolution with this customer vertical, it seems like we're not only talking about a cloud but maybe a cloud of clouds. >> Yes absolutely, I mean telcos again, they typically have one of everything. They are looking at decoupled solutions in terms of their network-based infrastructure. They want to be able to manage every layer of that infrastructure independently of the other layers in order to drive maximum flexibility and agility into their infrastructure but also so they don't get locked in to any one particular vendor. That's a big, big theme in the telco space. >> So you use the words agility and flexibility. So I in a previous lifetime, I did work with some telecom providers and they were not known for those words of agility and flexibility. We're in a world now with open source, with CICD, we talked about upgradability, a lot of the talk here at OpenStack is about manageability and flexibility and building, putting containers on top. Maybe we can go there next but do you, as you work with your customers and partners in the telecom space. It seems like they've had to have a cultural shift. I see a lot of people from the carriers here, right. They're as long haired and shaggy, and barefoot as any other engineer here at OpenStack summit. Has there been a real cultural shift inside telecom to accomplish this? >> Yeah, there's a real cultural shift that's ongoing. It's got a ways to go. The telcos themselves are engineeringly orientated. So they traditionally have come from an environment where we'll build it and customers will come. Now they're looking at we need to build it quicker and faster in order to attract customers, get them to come and view our services, get them addicted to a certain degree. Maybe the wrong word but to our content. So building sticky services, trying to reduce the churn they have in their business, driving innovation through open source because I think they've realized that innovation isn't necessarily within their own company. It sits elsewhere so which is the new Uber as it were? Which is new Airbnb? What is the new WhatsApp-based application? They want to create a network infrastructure that's flexible enough with all of those attributes through API so those companies can develop innovative next-generation content and services over their network infrastructure, in order to attract and make services sticky for their customers. >> Darrell, I wonder if you can speak to the complexity of the solutions in the telco space? Last year we spoke to Verizon, and they love what they have but they had to choose some glass, walk over some hot coals to be able to get the solution together. These are big complicated solutions. We've talked in general about OpenStack, and trying to simplify some of the complexity but can you speak to some of the how long it takes to roll these out and some of the effort involved for the telcos? >> Well it's it's sort of a walk, a cruel walk run process to a lot of that because A working with open source is very different than what they traditionally have done, and as you mentioned earlier, traditionally they'll buy an application through our appliance. They'll take nine months to deploy in all their centers. Then another three to six months later, they might switch it off. In the software agile world, they've got to condense that sort of 12 to 18 month period down to maybe three or four weeks. They may stand up a service for an event like the Olympics and then take it down after the Olympics. So there's a lot of complexity and change in the way that they need to deliver those services, and that complexity isn't trivial. So it involves delivering quality of service through the deployment of next generation network infrastructure because they are regulated companies. So they've got to maintain that quality of service in order to be able to bill, and meet the regulations that they they have to adhere to in the markets that they operate their network infrastructure. Very different from the Googles, the Facebooks of the world. They don't have that sort of regulation over their head. The telcos do so they have a level of discipline that they need to achieve in terms of availability of their network infrastructure, the availability of their services, the availability of their applications, and that links into a whole quality of service experience for their customers, and linked into their operation systems support, into their billing system and the list goes on, and on and on. So what we found at Red Hat is that, that is not trivial, that is hard, and a lot of the telcos are very engineeringly oriented. It's great working with them because they really understand the difficulties, and the fact that this is particularly hard. They also know that they want to build it and own it, and understand it themselves, because it's their business model. To them, the network is an asset. It's not something that they can just outsource to someone else, that doesn't necessarily understand that same degree of that asset. So they want to get their heads around that. >> So they need that reliability. From the eyes of a service provider how mature is OpenStack right now? Is it in production? Can they trust it? We're a few more than a few years into the OpenStack evolution so where are we in deployment? >> That, number of operators are in deployment. You mentioned one on a few months ago like Verizon. >> Stu: Yeah, AT&T is on stage. >> Absolutely, AT&T-- >> Deutsche Telekom, the headlines sponsored the event. >> Exactly, I mean, and what they're doing is they're starting very pragmatically. They're looking at specific services, and they're building slowly a service upon service upon service so they go from a crawl to walking, then to a run. I think, what we're seeing in OpenStack is not if but when these guys will deploy at mass scale. We're beginning now to see a general acceptance that this is a methodology and or a technology that they can deploy and will deploy in the NFE context. The other thing that's occurring in the space is they're looking at traditional IT workloads. So a telco-based cloud if you want to use that terminology is just as capable of running IT-based workloads and services as well. So a number of them are looking at their own enterprise and running those environments. Some of them are partnering with some of our partners to build OpenStack public cloud instances. So they want to try and attract services to that environment as well. >> It's interesting you point that out. There's been that ebbing flow of can the telco players be cloud as John pointed out. I worked in telecommunications back in the '90s. Agile and fast was not the thing of the day. One of the big companies who had bought a cloud company just sold off lots of their data centers. Do they feel that they're going to compete against the Amazon, Microsoft, Googles of the world? Do they think they'll be service providers? Where do they see is their natural fit in the cloud ecosystem? >> So my role is on a global basis. In North America, they don't want to, I don't think they feel they can compete in the way that you were intimating in that regard. However, where they do think they can compete and since we're going to probably talk about 5G and IOT, that is the area where they see public cloud applications and services being developed. So they're looking at the insurance industry, the automotive industry, the manufacturing industry, and creating an environment where those applications can be built to many many thousands of millions of devices connected to them. So I think the definition of in North America, of a public cloud infrastructure is going to evolve in that direction. In other markets such as Latin America and in Europe, some of the telecommunications companies believe that they can be competitive in that space. So more recently, Orange announced that they're working with OpenStack to deploy public cloud. Telefonica, Deutsche Telekom, China Mobile, America Movil, they're all using OpenStack to try and enter that specific market space. >> Okay, please talk to us about the 5G angles here. Obviously like Mobile World Congress, it was like be number one conversation. When we went to the Open Networking Summit, it was there. You're the first person to talk about it that I heard I didn't, maybe I missed it in one of the keynotes but you know none of our interviews has come out yet. So how does that fit into the OpenStack picture? >> So 5G is the reason why telcos are building NFEI, that they were NFE because they realize that to connect all of those devices to their network-based infrastructure, they need to do it intelligently, they need to do it at the edge, and they need to have a high degree of flexibility and agility to their network-based infrastructure to create an innovation environment for application developers to connect all those devices. So we talked about smart cars as a good example around 5G. You need low latency, you need the high availability, you need to be reliable, you need to provide all of that network infrastructure as an example plus you need a portfolio of developers that are going to create all sorts of different applications for those vehicles that we driving around on the street. So that without 5G, that does not happen. You're not, you know some metropolitan areas, the amount of connectivity that you have access to in terms of the traditional cloud-based access networking infrastructure doesn't facilitate the amount of density that 5G will actually facilitate. So you need to be able to change the basis in which you're building that infrastructure to lower the cost of the network in terms of being able to drive that. >> All right and I'm curious I think about the global reach we were just talking about. Usually, the global reach of a new technology like 5G lags a little bit in the rest of the world compared to Western Europe and North America. >> Well, I think in Asia, 5G is, if I look at what they're trying to do, the leading vendors ZTE, Samsung, Huawei, they're heavily invested in 5G-based infrastructure, and they don't have, their operators in those part of the world don't have an awful lot of legacy-based infrastructure to be able to have to replace. They can get there a lot faster. The other thing is with 5G, for them, the applications and services in the way that people experience network-based access or Internet if for want of another word is very different than way that maybe we experience it here in the US or in Europe. So I think you're going to see different applications and different business models evolve in different markets in Asia than you would say here in North America. In North America, I think that it's going to take a lot of the operators different business models to look at maybe some of the higher order of applications and services that drive stickiness for their own infrastructure and network services but also some of the more advanced applications like I mentioned smart cars or smart homes, or smart cities or energy or better ways of delivering products in terms of distribution to your home, those those types of applications and services we won't necessarily in some of those other markets be there and similarly for Europe. >> All right Darrell Jordan-Smith, really appreciate you joining us, giving us all the updates on telco, how it fits with OpenStack. Jon Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage here from the OpenStack summit 2017 in Boston. You're watching The CUBE (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube. Covering Red Hat summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat summit here in Boston, Massaachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We are joined by Armughan Ahmad, he is the senior vice president and general manager solutions and alliances at Dell EMC. Thanks so much for joining us. >> It's my pleasure, good to see you, Rebecca. >> So we've had you on the program before, but your role has changed a bit at Dell EMC since then. Tell us what you're doing now. >> Sure, I have the pleasure to now lead our solutions business unit that we have under infrastructure solutions group. What we drive is focus areas of customer outcomes. Work load orientation around high performance computing. Driving data analytics, business critical applications, software defined solutions, and then also hybrid cloud. So those are our five big priorities. >> It's a big mandate. >> It is a big mandate, right? And as you know, Dell EMC is Number one in everything. That's all we talk about. You'll hear this at Dell EMC World next week. But you know, at Red Hat summit, we're really having this discussion, right, Red Hat open stack summit, which is really around our differentiation, how we're driving human progress forward, social innovation forward. So that's exciting. So as we take our applications and partner with our alliance partners, that's the differentiation we're excited to share with customers and partners here at Red Hat summit as well. >> So Dell EMC, as you said, is uniquely suited to do these things and lead in this way. But how do you make deployment easier? I mean, that's the big question that customers and partners need to know. >> Yeah, absolutely. So you as you know, being number One in everything, when I joked about this, not joking about this, if you really think about our market share in compute or servers, if you look at our market share in storage, external storage, internal storage, you look at our market share in converge infrastructure, hyperconverge infrastructure, if you see our market share in data protection, or our market share in open networking, right, so we're all the way to the far top right of the Gartner magic quadrants, number one in market shares and revenue. That's all interesting, but what's fascinating for the customers is really more about how do you make all of this real? If you envision like a pyramid almost, and you think that the bottom is all of these infrastructure layers, the next one above that is virtualization, the next one above that is orchestration, but really on the top, is a platform, top of the pyramid, that's where the business sits. Business wants a platform, and what we're doing is trying to make all of that easy. We know that customers will build and they would want to do a DIY solution. And we obviously have that, we've been doing it for decades. But we're really trying to move to that top end of the pyramid with our hybrid could solutions, our converge solutions, but more the solutions that my organization leads is the blueprint solutions. And the whole idea about blueprint solutions is that how can we offer ready offerings to customers so that they don't have to really worry about the bottom of the pyramid, but the top of a platform so that's it's easy to deploy. >> And customized for their business. >> Absolutely. >> Armughan, in the keynote on day one, we heard that one of the top priorities for customers is figuring out their cloud strategy. Now, at Dell EMC, you have a number of offerings, can you bring us up to date, where does open stack fit into that, and of course, we're going to want to talk about the Red Hat joint solution that you're after. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, open stack, let me take it even a step back, you know Michael, 31 years ago, since he founded Dell, has always stood for choice for customers, open ecosystems for customers. And even though we have Dell technologies now, the acquisition of so many of the other assets that are under Dell technologies, we're really delighted to partner and ensure that we have the right kind of choice that we're offering to our customers. So open stack, Stu, puts a very big differentiation forward. You know, I'm here with our Dell EMC team at Red Hat open stack summit and our customers are telling us in a very, very clear way, and the channel partners who are here, is that they're looking for Dell EMC to really provide open source based solutions in telecom markets, in, you know, when you take a look at telecom and it's moving from 3G to 4G to now 5G coming on, it's really going to be the applications and how those applications become scaled out versus just infrastructure becoming scaled out. So now the evolution of open stack and how Dell EMC contributes to it, we never really wanted to build our own ecosystem of open stack like some of our other competitors have done. We've always stood by Red Hat open stack based solutions to say hey, if they're number one in open stack markets and they're already tuning that, why can't we tune our infrastructure solutions the exact same way so that one plus one equals five for the customers, and it becomes much easier for them to deploy that. >> Great, so absolutely, you mentioned some of the telecoms. NFV was probably the most talked about use case for open stack at last year's summit. We've got the open stack summit here in Boston next week, we'll be covering it. Is that a top use case for your solution with Red Hat, what are the real business drivers for people doing open stack, is it just private cloud solutions that they offer that you said mentioned the open source, people are still trying to figure out where this open stack fits compared to some of the other options that they have. >> Stu, what I'm finding, and you and I have had these discussions several times across the stack of server storage networking and others, the largest cost associated with deploying or consuming IT is really your OPEX cost. So if you envision for a second a pie chart and you look at a customer spend, a capital spend, about 25% of that is CAPEX oriented, which is how much you pay for infrastructure or software. About 75% of that is OPEX oriented, which is your human cost of managing it, your serviceability and others. The whole idea about us talking about this Dell EMC ready bundle solution that we're taking to market, so we announced yesterday our opportunity to really go out and simplify all of this for customers, for cloud solutions, or for their NFV or NFVI solutions, as we're seeing NFVI-- >> And for our audience that doesn't know NFVI, what's the differentiation there? >> Our opportunity to take network function virtualization, then taking VNF capabilities, and then also making sure that we're virtualizing a lot of those aspects on NFVI so that our customers are driving service provider opportunities to then containerize these opportunities as part of open shift and others. And we feel that our differentiation at Dell EMC really, then, ends up becoming our tested validated offerings so that customers don't really have to worry about the infrastructure layer, or even the software layer for that matter, and we can just give them a platform that I was referring to earlier. So that ready bundle for open stack that we have offered, and I will be taking about it in my keynote today, that whole ready bundle at Dell EMC solution has been validated, tested. It's got not just reference architectures, but deployment guides, run books. But we've also taken it one step forward, we actually internally called it jetstream. And the whole idea of jetstream internal codename was, if you guys are familiar with jetstreams around the world, and you catch one of those jetstreams, they usually go from west to east. And if you go from Boston to London, you can get there pretty quickly if you hit one of those because it's 160 miles an hour. That's why we selected the name jetstream. And the whole idea is if you actually imagine if you put a concord in that jetstream, you can actually do that trip now in three hours, or you could've done it in concords around at the time. So if we can actually create that concord-like style of a ready bundle solution that is running open stack platform, we can not only get the customers to deploy much faster and reduce their OPEX, but there's a tooling that's required. So for example, the customer wants to deploy an open stack solution. We actually created a jetpack, jetstream, jetpack, and the whole idea of a jetpack is very quickly us providing sizing tools and deployment tools for customers so that they can get to their destination very, very fast. >> And how fast are we talking here? >> So we're talking, I'll actually have a customer, East Carolina University, on stage with me. Something that would take three weeks, they've got it done in three days using this jetpack solution. So us creating these ready bundles and deploying open stack much faster, either for cloud environments or environments for NFV and eventually for NFVI. And then we're also working with our Dell EMC code group, which is now looking at containerization solutions as well. So that's sort of the differentiations that we're talking about. >> And Armughan, I know, we're really good usually at quantifying that kind of deployment, that shrinking months to days or days to hours, that operational efficiency though, once it's in there, do you have any metrics or cost savings that your customers in general are seeing of rolling this out versus the old kind of putting it together themselves. >> Great question, Stu, so we all measured, Rebecca, you know this, you've written for HBR, which is really about ROI, TCOs for customers, what is your return on investment and your total cost of ownership. And really, what we're finding is that we can do this about 30% more effective. I'd love to say it's 80% more effective where we can take your OPEX down and others. But realistically, if you really look at East Carolina University or many of the other customers who are deploying this, they're seeing on average about 30% improvement in their operating costs. Now, it's not just related to cloud or it's not just related to NFV and NFVI. We're also seeing a huge use case of open stack now as part of high performance computing. So as high performance computing is evolving from traditional research and moving more into machine learning and AI frameworks, we're also seeing customers leverage open stack in that environment as well. >> and I wonder also, I mean, just talking about the difficulties with calculating ROI, but talking about how it's having this big impact on high performance computing, what about high performance teams, the people who are actually doing the work? >> Absolutely, and so talking about high performance team, right, the web tech, it started in Silicon Valley, now it's in Dublin, Ireland, or it's in China or all of these other places, they've really figured out, right, how do you drive efficiency. I mean, at Facebook, I think one server admin manages 50,000 physical servers or something like that. That's a scale out ways. >> And the thing we always say, it's that person's job is varied, it's not just that their doing three orders of magnitude more than the poor guy running around the data center, they've changed really how they focus on the application, and that job is very different. So they don't really even have server admins, they just have the number of head count that they need. >> The number of head count that's required. >> Hyperscale model, very different from what we have in the enterprise world. >> Absolutely, absolutely. But there are lessons to be learned from the hyperscale model. And if you can drive, I mean, according to IDC, one server admin manages about 40 physical servers, somewhere between 30 to 40 physical servers versus the number that I just shared with you, right, from these big web tech providers. So if we can even improve that to 100 or 1,000 to one admin. I think sys admins still should continue to exist even though this whole public cloud is coming in. But the rise of edge computing for us is also a big, big phenomenon. And we want to ensure that the rise of edge computing, Dell EMC is at the forefront of ensuring that we're providing analytic solutions to our customers. And a lot of the analytics are really happening at the edge 'cause you need to make those analytics decisions very quick 'cant really have a lot of latency back to public cloud for that. So our hybrid cloud solutions, working very closely with open stack to drop OPEX costs down, all of that really matters to customer right now. >> Armughan, I want to go back to something you talked about in the very beginning, which is this element of human progress. It's a professional and personal passion of yours to use technology for good, to solve some of the world's most complex problems, educating young women, working in developing countries, curing cancer. Talk a little bit about what you're doing. >> You know, Rebecca, that's a huge passion of not just mine, but Michael, and all of our executive leadership team at Dell EMC. We were talking earlier before this interview started, it's a passion of yours and Stu's. We all love to, as human beings, contribute to society. And human progress is really technologies impacting human progress in different ways. Right, if you talk about manufacturing jobs versus what automation is. But at the same time, technology is also helping in many different areas. So if you look at developing countries, now I'm personally involved in girls' education in third world countries where they're not prioritized, and what can technology do at schools to really get them to learn coding and get a differentiation out very, very quickly. But at the same time, our Dell initiatives, we call it the legacy for good. The Dell initiatives are really, not just about diversity and inclusion, it's also about improving the human progress. I'll give you an example. We have a great customer, T-Gen. And T-Gen is in the healthcare field and they drive genome sequencing solutions, so they have scientists who drive genome sequencing. Now, if you think about genome sequencing before technology, how long it would take somebody to sequence certain genomes for the purpose of cancer research, that would take you years. Now, if you can get that done in minutes, and that technology will learn, and then next time you do it, it would be even seconds for the same platform. So we actually developed a life sciences genome sequencing high performance computing cluster for this customer. And now they're able to very quickly help young girls and young kids improve their longevity with their cancer treatment that they're going through. So those are the things that really matter to our teams. And I know it matters to our customers and our partners. Because now we're not talking about just open stack or Dell EMC and our great number one in everything solutions we have. Those are fantastic, but how do you relate that social innovation, how do you relate that to human progress. To me, that is really the differentiation that we all collectively need to continue to drive and talk about this a little bit more. But we do need to find more connection points that we know that technology can help, but it's really those medical professionals and those researchers, they're really the brainiacs who use our technology, our opportunity as tech geeks, or I call myself a geek, at least, is how do we take that and then take that out to them and then real researchers can build their platforms on top of it to cure cancer. Or to go drive manufacturing jobs for social innovation purposes in middle America or around the world. That's the difference and those are the solutions that my team, along with many others at Dell EMC, along with our partners with Red Hat, we're focused on, we talk about that a lot. And Jim Witers talked about social innovation and how Red Hat is also making that a priority this morning in his keynote. >> Armughan, it sounds like your team is quite busy. And I know you've got your big event coming up next week, so you finish the keynote here, you'll be jetting our to Las Vegas. Rebecca, a big set of our Cube team will all be out in Vegas to cover the show. So give our audience a little bit of a preview of what you can about what we should expect for the new Dell EMC world as kind of taking together what EMC world has been doing for many years and Dell world in the past. >> You know, we're really excited, Stu, about Dell EMC world because this is the first time Dell world and EMC world comes together in Vegas. So we'll look forward to having you guys there. We have great speakers lined up, it's really focused for customers and technical audiences. We've got lots of partners there. But more importantly, we're showcasing all the solutions and the culmination of Dell EMC merger that has happened along with our Dell technologies group of companies like Pivotal along with VMWare along with Secureworks along with Virtustream. And how do we differentiate not just the Dell brand, which is our client computing group that we have, but also our Dell EMC, that's server storage networking, and then with VMWare and Pivotal and others. What you'll see is not just great keynotes, but some great speakers, great entertainment. I don't know if that's been released, I think it's been released. Gwen Stefani, I think she's-- >> Andy Grammar, and yeah, Gwen Stefani. >> Gwen Stefani, yeah, so that's going to be pretty cool, so we're excited about that. But the speakers that we have lined up on main stage along with, I'm more excited, I geek out, I'm a nerd, I love going into these technical breakouts where we've got lab equipment set up where people can actually get to enjoy and, I call it enjoyment, which is really geek out with understanding what are all of those solutions that we have, kind of, you know, put together. And those blueprint solutions, what are they. We have obviously, our server storage networking and data protection. But then how do you get into those labs and run some demos and proof of concepts, that makes it easy for the customers. So we're excited about that as you can see. >> Well, we're looking forward to it, we'll see you there. >> Yeah, we look forward to hosting you there. >> Armughan, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you, my pleasure. >> This has been Rebecca Knight and Stu Miniman, we will return with more from Red Hat summit after this.

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering open networking summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux foundation. >> Welcome back. We are live in Santa Clara at the open networking summit 2017. Been coming here for a couple years, it's a lot of open source going on in storage, for a long time, a lot of open source going on in compute for a long time, and you know, networking was kind of the last one, but we had Martin Casado on on earlier today. He says it's 10 years since he started Nicira. And now, it's a billion dollar revenue run raid inside vmware, so I think the software defined networking is pretty real. We're excited for this next segment, Scott Raynovich, been cohosting all day, good to see you again, Scott. But we're kind of shifting, we're going to add to open networking, we're going to add to open, not compute, but OpenStack, I get them all mixed up, we were just-- >> It's all infrastructure, it's all in the family. >> All right, so our next guest here, representing the OpenStack foundation, is Ildiko Vancsa, get that right? She is the ecosystem technical lead for OpenStack, welcome. And Lisa-Marie Namphy, she's now officially the OpenStack ambassador, which if you follow her on Twitter, you would have known that a long time ago. >> For the U.S. There's several others globally, but for the U.S., yeah. >> So first off, welcome. >> Thank you. >> And what is the OpenStack team doing here at open networking summit? >> So OpenStack itself is a multipurpose generated cloud platform, so we are not just looking into enterprise, IT use cases, but also trying to address the telecom and NFV space. And this is the conference where we are finding many of our ecosystem member companies represented, and we are also learning what's new in the networking space, what are the challenges of tomorrow and how we can start to address them today. >> Right, 'cause the telco is a very active space for OpenStack as well, correct, there's been a good market segment for you. >> Yes, it is an emerging area. I would say we have more and more telecommunications company around and they are also more and more involved in open source. Because I think it's kind of clear that they are also using open source for a while now, but using open source and participating in open source, those are two different things. So this kind of mindset change and transition towards participating In these communities and going out to the public field and do software development there and collaborate with each other and the enterprise IT segment as well, this is what is happening today and it is really great to see it. >> Host: Great, great. >> And you've seen more and more telco's participating in the OpenStack summits, there was an NFV day, I think, even going all the way back to the Atlanta summit. And certainly, in Barcelona, Ildiko was actually doing one of the main stage key notes, which was very focused on telco. And some of the main sponsors of this upcoming summit are telco's. So there's definitely a nice energy between telco and OpenStack. >> Now, why do you think the telco is just the one that's kind of getting ahead of the curve in terms of the adoption? >> Scalable low class clouds. (all laugh) >> Right, and we had John Donovan from AT&T said today that they're either rapidly approaching or going to hit, very soon, more than 50% of software defined networking within the AT&T network. So if there's any questions as to whether it's real or still in POC's, I think that pretty much says it's in production and running. >> I'm doing a lot more of that, so I also run the OpenStack user group for the San Francisco bay area and have been for the last three years, and if we're not talking about Kupernetes, or Docker and OpenStack, we're talking about networking. And tonight, actually, we're going to, the open contrail team is talking about some of the stuff they're doing with open contrail and containers and sort of just to piggyback off of this conference. And next week, as well, we're talking about the network functionality in Kupernetes at OpenStack, if you want to run in down to the OpenStack cloud. So it's a huge focus and the user group can't get enough of it. >> and your guys' show is coming up very, very soon. >> The OpenStack summit? >> Yes. >> Oh, absolutely, May 8th through 11th in Boston, Massachusetts. >> Host: Like right around the corner. >> Yeah. >> The incredible moving show, right? It keeps going and going and going. >> Yeah, yeah, there's going to be 6,000 plus people there. There was just some recent press releases about some of the keynotes that are happening there. There's a huge focus on, you know, I keep calling this the year of the user, the year of OpenStack adoption. And we're really, throughout the meetups, we're really doing a lot to try to showcase those use cases. So Google will be one that's onstage talking about some really cool stuff they're doing with OpenStack, some machine learning, just really intelligent stuff they're working on, and that's going to be a great keynote that we're looking forward to. Harvard will be up on there, you know, not just big name foundation members, but a lot of use cases that you'll see presented. >> So why do you think this is the year, what's kind of the breakthrough that it is the year of the user, would you say? >> Well, I think that just the reliability of OpenStack. I think enterprises are getting more comfortable. There are very large clouds running on OpenStack, more in Asia and in Europe and Ildiko can probably talk about it, particularly some of the telco related ones. But you know, the adoption is there and you see more stability around there, more integration with other, I don't know what to call it, emerging technologies like containers, like AI, like IOT. So there's a big push there, but I think enterprises have just, they have adopted it. And there's more expertise out there. We've focused a lot on the administrators. There's the COA, the certified administrator of, you know, OpenStack administrator exam you can take. So the operators have come a long way and they're really helping the customers out there get OpenStack clouds up and running. So I just think, you know, it's seven years now, into it, right, so we got to turn the corner. >> So there have been some growing pains with OpenStack, so what can you tell us about the metrics today versus, say, three or four years ago in terms of total installations, maybe breakdown of telecom versus enterprise, what kind of metrics do you have you there? >> I'll let you take that one. >> We are running, continuously running a user survey and we are seeing growing numbers in the telecom area. I'm not prepared with the numbers from the top of my head, but we are definitely seeing more and more adoption in the telecom space like how you mentioned AT&T, they are one of the largest telecom operators onboard in the community, and they are also very active, showing a pretty great example of how to adopt the software and how to participate in the community to make the software more and more NFV ready and ready for the telecom use cases. We also have, as Lisa-Marie just mentioned, the China area and Asia are coming up as well, like we have China Mobile and China Telecom onboard as well. Or Huawei, so we have telecom operators and telecom vendors as well, around the community. And we are also collaborating with other communities, so like who you see around OPNFV, OpenDaylight, and so forth. We are collaborating with them to see how we can integrate OpenStack into a larger environment as part of the full NFV stack. If you look into the ETSI NFV architectural framework, OpenStack is on the infrastructure layer. The NFV infrastructure and virtual infrastructure manager components are covered with OpenStack services mostly. So you also need to look into, then, how you can run on top of the hardware that the telecom industry is expecting in a data center and how to onboard the virtual network functions on top of that, how to put D management and orchestration components on top of OpenStack, and how the integration works out. So we are collaborating with these communities and what is really exciting about the Upcoming summit is that we are transforming the event a little bit. So this time, it will not be purely OpenStack focused, but it will be more like an open infrastructure, even. We are running open source days, so we will have representation from the communities I mentioned and we will also have Kubernetes onboard, for example, to show how we are collaborating with the representatives of the container technologies. We will also have Cloud Foundry and a few more communities around, so it will be a pretty interesting event and we are just trying to show the big picture that how OpenStack and all these other components of this large ecosystem are operating together. And that is going to be a super cool part of the summit, so the summit is May 8th through 11th and on May 9th, the CNCF, the Linux foundation, actually, behind this, the CNCF day, they're calling it Kupernetes day. And the whole day will be dedicated, there will be a whole track dedicated to Kupernetes, basically. And so they did another call for papers and it's like a little mini conference inside the conference. So that's kind of what I was saying about the adoption of other technologies. I'm sure the OpenStack foundation is putting those numbers together that you asked about and probably Jonathan or Bryce will stand onstage on the first day and talk about them. But what I think is more interesting and what I would encourage people to go, there's a Superuser magazine. Superuser does a great job telling the stories of what's happening out there, and some of these use cases, and who's adopting this technology and what they're doing with it. And those stories are more interesting than just, you know, the numbers. Because you can do anything with numbers and statistics, but these actual user stories are really cool so I encourage readers to go out to Superuser magazine and check that out. >> It's like, Lego uses it. >> There you go. >> I had to check real fast. >> Lot of information on there. They do a good job of that. >> Lego alligators. >> So you talked about this day with the Linux foundation, is there increasing amounts of cooperation between OpenStack and Linux foundation? Given all the projects that seem to be blossoming. >> Yeah, I don't even know that it needed to increase, there's always been nice energy between the two. There is, you know, Eileen Evans, who we know very well, was on the board of both, the first woman on both boards. She was my colleague for many years at Hewlett-Packard. She's still on the Linux foundation board and there's been a lot of synergy between those foundations. They've always worked closely together, especially things like the Cloud Foundry foundation that came out of the Linux foundation has always worked very closely with OpenStack, the OpenStack foundation, and the board members, and it's all one big happy family. We're all open source, yeah. >> And you talked about the enterprises being, you know, they've been using open source for a long time, Linux has been around forever. They're really more adopting kind of an open source ethos in terms of their own contributions back and participating back in. So you see just increased adoption, really, of using the open source vehicle as a way to do better innovation, better product development, and to get involved, get back to their engineers to get involved in something beyond just their day job. >> It is definitely a tendency that is happening, so it's not just AT&T, like, I can mention, for example, NTT DoCoMo, who now has engineers working on OpenStack code. They are a large operator in Japan. And it is really not something, I think, that a few years back, they would've imagined that they will just participate in an open source community. I've been involved with OPNFV for, I think, two years now, or two and a half. I'm an OPNFV ambassador as well, I'm trying to focus on the cross-community collaboration. And OPNFV is an environment where you can find many telecom operators and vendors. And it was a really interesting journey to see them, how they get to know open source more and more and how they learned how this is working and how working in public is like and what the benefits are. And I remember when a few people from, for example, DoCoMo came to OPNFV and they were, like, a little bit more shy, just exploring what's happening. And then like a half year later when they started to do OpenStack contributions, they had code batches merged into OpenStack, they added new functionalities, they kind of became advocates of open source. And they were like telling everywhere that open source is the way to go and this is what everyone should be doing and why it is so great to collaborate with other operators out in the public so you can address the common pain points together, rather than everyone is working on it behind closed doors and trying to invent the same wheel at the same time, separately. >> Right. >> So that was a really, really Interesting journey. And I think more and more companies are following this example. And not just coming and giving feedback, but also more and more participating and doing coding documentation work in the community. >> And I think if I can understand, what I think, also, the question you might have been asking, there wasn't a ton of python developers in the beginning and everybody's like how do we get these OpenStack developers in the company, you know, it was this huge shortage. And Linux was the little hanging fruit, it's like well, why do we just hire some Linux developers and then teach them python, and that's how a lot of OpenStack knowledge came into companies. So that was the trend. And I think enough companies, enough enterprises do see the value of something like OpenStack or Linux or Kupernetes or whatever the project has, Docker, to actually dedicate enough full time employees to be doing just that for as long as it makes sense and then maybe it's another technology. But we saw that for years, right, with OpenStack, huge companies. And there still are. Not always the same companies, depending on what a company needs and where they are, they absolutely find value in contributing back to this community. >> Okay, and you said you got a meetup tonight? >> I do, yeah. >> Give a plug for the meetup. >> Juniper, it's open contrail talking about open contrailing and containers. And it's at Juniper here in Sunnyville, so if you go to meetup.com/openstack, that's our user group. We're the first ones, we got that one. So meetup.com/openstack is the Silicon Valley, San Francisco bay area user group. And then next week, we're talking about networking and Kupernetes. >> All right, it's always good to be above the fold, that's for sure. All right, Ildiko, Lisa-Marie, great to see you again and thanks for stopping by, and we'll see you in Boston, if not before. >> Absolutely, we'll both be quite busy, we have four, both four presentations each, it's going to be a nutty week. So I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in Boston, always a pleasure, thanks for inviting us. >> Absolutely, all right, thanks for stopping by. With Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching The Cube from open networking summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break, thanks for watching.

>> [Voiceover] Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Palo Alto, California inside theCube's new studios, 4500 square feet in Palo Alto, just opened up last month and excited to be here. Breaking down Mobile World Congress all day, from 8 a.m. to 6, today and tomorrow. As their day ends, we're going to pick up the coverage, do the analysis, get some commentary and reaction to all the news and also the big trends and my next guest here in the studio is Saar Gillai, friend of the Cube, Cube alumni, and former HPE Senior Vice President GM of the teleco business. Ran the cloud, then a variety of things with Meg Whitman at HPE, now he's independent board member and in between gigs on the beach, clipping coupons as we say, Saar, great to see you, looking good. >> Great to be here, nice studio. >> I'm excited that you could come in, this is exactly why we're having our show here in this new studio because a lot of folks that don't take the big trek to Barcelona who don't have to can come in and talk to us and you've been a veteran of Mobile World Congress for many years. Again, you ran, and actually built the cloud biz and also built the, I won't say NFV biz, but essentially the teleco communications division for HPE so you know a lot about what's happening in the industry and more importantly Mobile World Congress. This is the year that all the accelerant is coming to the table, all the rocket fuel is being poured out on to the bonfire, the matches are going to be lit, it's called 5G, it's called IOT, internet of things, internet of people, the devices look good, they all want to be Apple, they all want to be over the top, running entertainment, smart cities, cars, 5G is the holy grail, we're done. But seriously, where is the meat on the bone on this thing? Is it real, is this transformation hype or reality at Mobile World Congress? >> Yes. (laughing) >> Yes, hype or yes, it's real? >> There's a lot of hype, but there's some reality. I mean I think first of all, 5G is the latest thing, it used to be LTE, now it's 5G. What does 5G actually mean? Really, for people, what 5G means is you should have a lot more capacity, right? So 5G talks about even up to one gigabit in certain cases, lower latency and so forth. Now the thing about wireless is you know, there's no secrets in wireless, okay? It's not like... >> It's a physics game. >> ...Yeah, it's physics, it's not like ethernet, where you can go from one meg to 10 meg then all you have to do is run more line and you're good. If that was so easy in wireless right now, we'd all be getting one gigabyte right, but we're not. So the only way you increase capacity in wireless is through smaller cells, and there are some mimo technologies and so forth. You know, 5G talks abouts technologies that will enable you to do that, but it's much more of an evolution than revolution and people need to understand that. There's no fundamental shift, what they're talking about in 5G is adding a lot more bandwidth. Today, most of the frequencies being used are sub five gigahertz, those are great frequencies to go through walls, they're not that great in terms of capacity and there's not that much of them. Like AT&T might have 60 megahertz, that's the entire capacity they have in the U.S. And that's not much. And so they're talking about using millimeter waves, other things like 27 gig, 28 gig, 60 gig. Now, those do have a lot more capacity, they have other problems, they don't go through walls. So, I think instead of thinking about 5G, we need to think about, okay, what problems are we trying to solve? Like, what problems is this going to solve? I think in some sense, it's... ...while everyone wants more broadband, some of it is a solution looking for a problem. >> [John] Yeah, it's a field of dreams too dynamic, build it, they will come. That has been a network operator concept, right? And then we know the operators, and you and I have talked about this on theCube many years, the operators are having business model challenges, problems, challenges, there are opportunities, but at the same time there is a bigger picture I want to get your thoughts on. So in a vacuum, there's limitations, there's physics, but now, you're looking at a connected network, and this is the end to end concept, so under the covers of wireless, assuming wireless has its topology, architectural things you could do, smaller cells, different frequencies, how it's going through walls is preferred, longer distance, longer latency through walls, that's the ideal scenario. But I think there's a bigger picture around the different types of wireless networks, but there's cars, there's mobility, actual true mobility, 60 miles an hour in a car versus walking down the street or sitting in a stadium or at home. These are use cases. How much of it is a wireless problem versus another problem? NFV, end to end, virtualization, help us parse that through, how should we think about this? >> There's two issues, there's a wireless problem, we can talk about the different segments that make sense and don't make sense or how much they have to evolve to make sense. And then fundamentally, the networks are very... ...they're not that agile as we know. Which is why NFV really, if you remove NFV, and you just... ...NFV's about creating agility, and yes their doing for virtualization and yada yada, but it's about creating agility, creating automation, right? You can't have these... ...a lot of these networks were designed years ago even 3GPP, this is a decade old. And so yes, there's a lot of work that has to be done and creating much more agility in a network because the network isn't built for that. Just if you think about even simple things like number of subscribers that can go on and off, right? Okay, if you have a cell phone. Like today, if you look in the world there might be 80 billion subscribers, lets say. If you look at the number of cell phones and so forth. But once you start IOT, you might have 100 billion because every device will be a network. That's a different management system, right? Also, those devices may go on and off every day, right? Because you buy a new device, you plug it in the wall. Okay, phones, you don't start a new phone every day, right? People buy a phone to use it, so, the network becomes much more dynamic, the back end has to be more dynamic, that has a side effect and so there's a lot of work that has to be done on the backend to make it more dynamic. That's the backend problem and then, you know, they are working on it. >> [John] And the bright spots there are what? What are the bright spots happening today, this week at Mobile World Congress and the trends around the backend? >> Well, you know, I mean Mobile World Congress is a show, right? And these are not sexy things, so we probably won't hear a lot about them, but you hear about orchestration, automation, network virtualization, basically moving all this through the cloud paradigm, where you have a lot more flexibility. I mean if you think about what's happening NFV these days for example, you don't hear a lot about it, but what is happening a lot is onboarding work. Okay, we've talked a lot about it, from that hype, now we're into build-out, right? So you hear less about it, but stuff is actually happening. >> [John] So it's operational. >> [Saar] It's operational stuff. >> Yeah >> [Saar] They're modifying the system so that they can be ready to work when you get to that point. On the radio side, I think the important thing to understand is like you said exactly, there's multiple use cases for 5G. The most interesting and immediate one, potentially is to use wireless to compete against cable. Which is fixed wireless access. You know, there, the telecos for years have wanted to do it, there was this whole discussion about fiber, then it turned out fiber's expensive. >> [John] Yeah, you've got to trench it, you've got to provision it to your home, you've got to roll a truck. >> Took Google a few years to figure that out, but even for Google, it's expensive. >> [John] People who have done that said you're crazy, but Google's has had so many deep pockets and Facebook does the same thing with their kind of R&D projects. >> They figured it out, there are technologies, millimeter wave is a bit hard because it doesn't go through walls, but I think when we talk about capacities, it's not for your mobile phone, it's for other things, it's mostly for fixed wireless access. There's a whole discussion about cars, I personally, because we're talking about opinions here, I don't understand the problem so much because the reality is the car's going to be a mobile data center. So 90 percent of the data that's generated by the car will be kept in the car and the car will be sending analytics and metrics up so it doesn't need gigabits. It's not like every time you turn you need to get it an instruction. Maybe that's what the network guys want you to believe because then you need like zero latency. But you don't need that, it's much easier to invest in a better system in the car. So the car's not going to figure out... >> [John] The car is a computer, it's not a peripheral. >> Yeah, it's a peripheral. >> [John] It's a data center to your point. >> [Saar] It's a full data center. It's the edge that computes, so I don't think that's an issue, I think the car will need coverage and so forth. >> But that's a different thing, cars are great examples so let's take on this one. 'Cause this is a perfect mental model. A car is going to have all this capacity like a big computer >> [Saar] It's a data center. >> [John] Or a data center. >> [Saar] A mini data center. >> A lot of things, a lot of instrumentation, a lot of software, glue. >> [Saar] It's going to have 10 computers, big systems, it's like a little data center. >> But it also moves fast, so it's a true mobile data center. So it needs mobility. So mobility has trade-offs, right, with the wireless piece at least. Depends on how you're uploading. >> Again, it depends on the capacity. Mobility has certain elements when you get into Doppler Effect and so on. It's always a capacity trade off. All of you have talked on your cell phone or used data on your cell phone in your plane, we know this. When the plane's landing, that's 150 miles an hour when the plane lands, okay, and it works pretty well. >> We all cheat, don't turn on your cell phones, we're landing. >> [Saar] Yeah, exactly. >> We've all done it. >> So again, if you want to run a gigabit, it's a problem, if you want to run less it's not such a big deal if a car's going 60 miles an hour. So it depends. Now if you define the use cases, I need a gigabit for every car, there's a million cars, that's a problem. If you define the use case, as something else it's not a big problem. There is a problem though, and I think that is something that the 5G is trying to address in terms of more on the backend of density. >> Density in terms of signal, or density in terms of... >> In terms of support, so for example, the one place you can never use a cell phone is in a conference, because too many people are trying to get on at the same time. It's a statistical model. >> [John] A-station issues. >> It breaks, and so with a car also, you're going to have high density because if you have a traffic jam, all these cars are talking or receiving, so that's a bigger issue. And 5G does talk about that as well, but that's a bigger issue than pure capacity. Pure capacity, great, I'll give you this much megahertz... >> [John] I agree with that. >> You can do that on WiFi today. >> [John] I totally agree with that. So let's take a step back I want to get a little color on Mobile World Congress. Talk about what's going on right now. So it's dinner, people at parties, what goes on? People want to always ask me, John what always happens? First of all, Barcelona is a great city as you know, we've been there together for some HP events, as well as for Mobile World Congress. What's happening, you always make the comment it's a Biz Dev show which means it's business development going on. All the top executives go there, deals are being cut, but it's also a large trade show as you will for mobility. >> I think like you said, from my experience, the biggest value of Mobile World Congress is not the show itself, with all due respect to the show, it's the fact that everybody and anybody who is somebody is there, that's why we're not there. So you can meet people. And so if you want to meet a bunch of people, teleco leaders and so forth, that's what you do. This is the place. You all say, okay, we'll meet at Mobile World Congress. So like for example, when I was down there I would basically go back to back from in the morning until 10 at night, in meetings, dinners, whatever with CEOs of various telecos or CEOs of partners and so on. Everybody's there, and I never actually got to see the show because I never got out of a meeting. And most of what happens there is that. That's amazing because again, everybody's there. >> [John] There's a huge ecosystem involved. Talk about that ecosystem because this is the dynamic. And first of all, we don't have to go there because we've got theCube here so we're there virtually, digitally, and that's what we do now. This is great, in the studio, we save ourselves the three day flight to go to Barcelona. It is crazy there, but it is about the community there, because you have that opportunity to get the feedback, do deals. >> [Saar] A lot of deals around there. >> [John] A lot of deals happening, also feedback, trying to connect the dots and having the right product strategies. What are some of the things that you think is happening right now from a business standpoint in these meetings, right now? Are people still scratching their heads on over the top, is it the classic problems, what's the current state of the union? >> Well, you saw Vimpel Com change their name to some other thing, so I think what you're seeing right now, is there's still sort of multiple dynamics going on. One dynamic is there's people maneuvering around how 5G ends up closing and there was some discussions about that, there was some release done about hey we should speed it up and then Enrique said no this is silly. So there are some discussions, there is some maneuvering going on like any time when you're doing a spec, when does it freeze, when does it not freeze? Some of the telecos want this, and so forth. That's sort of in the background going on. They're still trying to figure out, you know, business model is still an issue. The people are experimenting and you're going to see a lot of that, experimenting with apps, experimenting with these monetization strategies. So there's a lot of that going on, trying to figure out, okay, how do we monetize the network in a better fashion? >> What do you think the best path is from your perspective? Just putting your industry hat on, if you had to kind of lay down some epic commentary to the teleco bosses, hey you got to cannibalize your own, get out in front, what would you advise them in terms of what to get out in front of, what to double down on? >> I think some of them are actually doing this, but I think first of all, I think they should forget about worrying about the technology. I mean, technology is very important, we need to take care of that, but really, they need to know what are they good at? What are they strong at? So their strong at a customer relationship, they have customers that they quote unquote have as partners, those customers, and they're very strong so what can you do with that partnership as opposed to all kinds of other random stuff. Now, if you look at what they're doing, they're doing different things. Some of them are like buying different media companies, so there's no easy path, but they're going to have to use their strength as opposed to try to become somebody they're not. They're not going to become Google, they're not going to become Amazon, they're not going to become one of those guys. They do need to become more cloudified just to be efficient, but that's because that's sort of the... ...just to play, you have to pay that card, but they're not going to be better than the existing, but they do have a very strong relationship with customers, they could probably sell them more things if they focus on good customer service. Customers are happy to work with them if they get a good deal and a frictionless environment. So, I would certainly encourage all of them, and I know many of them are focused on this, to improve your frictionless interaction for the customer. If the customer has a frictionless interaction and gets a good deal, they'll do business with them. >> Are you worried about the teleco's customer relationship when they have this decoupling trend kind of happening where the consumers want to take their phone or device and uncouple it from the network and just add more mobility across networks. So if there's better connectivity, I could be able to hop between Verizon, AT&T, whoever, that seems to be something that a lot of folks technically are saying from an architectural standpoint, having that personal centric view versus a network centric tie-in. Is that on the radar at all? Or is that still kind of in a way, fantasy? >> It's like people are still using AOL, right? >> [John] Who? Who? (laughing) >> They voted for Trump then, huh? >> I'm not going there right now, we can discuss that later. The point is, the primary area where there's problems in that area is roaming. And there's a lot of discussion about roaming. 55 or 60 percent of people turn off data when they go overseas because the roaming fares are so incredibly expensive which makes no sense. Why would I have a longer cost because I happen to have an AT&T contract in Europe, I'm not using more data than somebody in Europe and it's going through the backend of the internet anyways. So I think there... >> [John] It's a great way to jack the user with more fees. >> But that's not sustainable. >> Of course. >> I think there, you're going to see pressure of people and there's some companies who provide apps, and cards and sim cards, but there's now soft ways of doing it, there you're going to see pressure and I think eventually that will go the way of the messaging, where... >> [John] Like WhatsApp >> Yeah, they'll come up with something that will allow you to have data at a much cheaper rate, I don't know, does it make sense to switch carriers in the local market if you have a good price? I mean, what's the point? So again it all comes back to, do they give you a frictionless service? If they give you a frictionless service that is at reasonable cost, then you'll use it. So you've got to look at places... ...where their going to have people leave them is where they don't do that. And there are places they don't do that, roaming is one of those places. >> [John] So I've got to ask you about IOT, obviously it's the hottest trend, AI's more of the mental model that people get their arms around, they see virtual reality, augmented reality, they call that AI, it's more of a mental model, it's really not AI, but IOT is really where the action is. People see networks, where devices as you mention are coming on and off, you just don't provision those as static devices. They're very dynamic. Your take on the IOT market, what's your view on that? Because a lot of action happening there. >> I've been involved in IOT and different people have different names for what T means, I won't go there here. >> [John] T and P, things and people. Let it be watch... >> [Saar] Well T could mean things, it could mean other things too, but the point is, IOT ...I was working in a company that was doing IOT when we called machine to machine, if we had called it IOT, it would have been better. The point is IOT is, this is extremely fragmented, it's a super super fragmented market. And it has different ecosystems. The more complex part of IOT is not the front end, it's the backend of how do you manage devices how do you tie them to some app, how do you configure them, provision them? >> [John] 'Cause of the backend, infrastructures are different. Some are IT based... >> Think about it, you've got all these devices how do you upgrade them? How do you make sure they don't start a denial of service attack on their own? How do you provision them, how do you manage their life cycle? HPE has some product in that area, a global connectivity platform, but other people as well. So, this is a bigger problem. The backend is a much bigger problem than the front end. What's the problem? Hypothetically, I can stick a SIM card into anything and it's now a device. Most of these things do not have a high bandwidth. Low bandwidth coverage is pretty good in urban centers, not if you go to Utah, but other places. So, the biggest problem is backend. Now obviously there's a lot of advancements that can be done on the front end too, because of power issues. The biggest problem with IOT is depending what you want, you have a power issue. For example, we used to do this back in the day, you built these little devices, you stick them on containers, and then you can find out where the container is at any given moment. That's great, but how long does this thing last? I think IOT is a very big thing that's happening, I think most of the problem in IOT is not in the front end, it's in the back. >> [John] Yeah, I would agree with that. Also it allows you to get more data too. Another problem is storing up more data which is security, data, IT management, basic stuff. >> [Saar] Very basic stuff, and that stuff is hard to fix because again usually IOT is not a green field that are going to connect to something that exists. You're just augmenting it with IOT like if it's a power meter or something so now you have this existing ecosystem that has to interact with something that is brand new and so there are various companies who build interfaces and how to solve it, there's management issues. But I think IOT is real. >> [John] So let's talk about cloud. So cloud you also had your hand in at HP as well, you had a wireless background, the folks might not know that, going back before then. The cloud really is an opportunity, we see that with Amazon and then Microsoft's now got their stock up and so obviously cloud, it's a bigger game, it's hybrid, it's happening and then you have all these other fringe things developing around the mobility piece. How is the cloud changing the Mobile World Congress game? Because now it's a show that kind of blends. It feels like CES on one hand, it feels like Cloud World on another. It feels like IOT and teleco world, and all these things are kind of in a melting pot. >> Well I think to me, when I look at Mobile World Congress, I think of okay, it's teleco world, really because whatever the telecos happen to be doing is what the show is about, right? If you think about the telecos, we're talking about companies that have a capital like I think AT&T spends like 20 billion dollars a year or something in that range. We're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars of capital budget and whatever those folks are interested in is what shows up in that show. >> [John] So it's still a Teleco show dominant, you don't see that changing at all? >> No, but what teleco is, is changing, right? I mean they have broadcast, so what I'm saying is whatever the telecos are interested in is what shows up in that show. Drones, cars, telecos have their hands in all these things. And that's why it shows up in the show. Because ultimately the show is about the telecom space and the primary players. If you go down there, the booths that are as big as a country club, you know the Ericssons and so forth, it's a teleco show and people who want to be relevant like Intel as they want to be more relevant in wireless is building a bigger and bigger booth over there. But what teleco is really is about connecting things and as there's more things to connect, telecos get involved in other things. If they see a business opportunity, for example drones, lets go back to talk about that because there's a whole drone day and all this other stuff there. I mean drones need higher... ...I don't think they need so much bandwidth although it depends what kind of video you want to do. But they do need reliable connectivity. It's something useful, right? And today, you could argue connectivity it's not super reliable, it's pretty reliable, but we all have dropped calls every five minutes, right? I mean if a drone drops a call, that may not be that easy. There's use cases around these things >> [John] And back to your earlier point, I think this is the most important for the folks to listen to and hone in on is that there's a use case in every corner depending on the view of the market. Drones is one. Take virtual reality, augmented reality, that's another. IT, enterprises connecting, entertainment over the top, smart cities, these are all kind of nuanced areas. >> But when people want to understand, separate the hype from the non-hype, see if you can understand the use case. If you can't understand the use case or if the use case seems out there, then the technology is probably out there. Technology on it's own is fascinating, but if there's no use case that makes sense right here right now like again, for example, if I got a gigabit to my phone right now, would it make a difference in my life? An extra 20 hours of battery life would make a difference in my life more than a gigabit. >> That's a good point, right now battery life is more important than connectivity, but as the network transformation which is a big buzz word for this show is coming to the surface, that's an end to end architecture with software. So we think about traversing cloud, software, delivering of apps and services that's different. Now the apps have more headroom in that case, but then to your point, the backend's got to be... ...under the hood has to be smarter. Or is network transformation not yet there? >> Well I think what's happened is that the OTT, the OTTs started developing 20 years later, and surprise surprise, when you develop 20 years later, you have advantages, doesn't matter who you are, so their backend is a much further generation than the teleco's backend and so that's why when you connect to OTT services, it's consumer experience, it feels seamless and so forth, when you connect to the telecos backend, it's sort of a mismatch. And so they need to sort of fix that and that's part of the NFV transformation they're working on and again it's not because they had any limitations its because they had existing stuff, it's much easier to build from scratch. >> Final comment on Mobile World Congress this year, and outlook for the next year, your thoughts? >> We need to parse out what actually comes out of there. It's still early, I think 5G, 5Gs going to be what people are going to talk about, this is the thing. It means multiple things, but that's because the entire teleco world, if you think about it, if you look at the revenue of the suppliers and so forth who have been in a holding pattern ever since 4G sort of, in China, they finished 4G deployment and so the next big capital spending is going to be 5G, and so you're going to see the providers push anything to get that going. That's just the bottom line. >> Great. Saar Gallai, final comment, what are you working on now? Obviously we got to know you at a personal level with HPE, I've seen your roles, and the last one was really handling that teleco business which you grew up from a handful of people to hundreds of people, thousands of people. You're a land grabber, kingdom builder, empire builder. What are you up to now, what are you looking at for opportunity? I know you're doing some investing, you have some independent boards, what's your world like now here in Silicon Valley, what's your activities look like, and what's your thoughts on the valley in general and entrepreneurship and your activities? >> First of all, what I'm doing, the good news is I'm sitting here in Silicon Valley and so I'm very busy doing various interactions with bbcs, with startups, consulting, looking at different businesses, there's so much interesting things going on. Every morning you can look at new things that people bring over. Whether they're teleco related or not teleco related. Just some amazing things going on. Something from new wireless protocols to cloudification and so on, and I also sit on a few boards so I'm spending a lot of time doing that, looking at different things. >> [John] What's exciting for you right now? What's getting you jazzed up? >> There's so many different things, like I said, I think... >> [John] What's the coolest thing? >> The coolest things, some of the most cool things are.. >> [John] Confidential? >> Yeah, stealthy, I would say. I'm looking at some wireless stuff that's pretty revolutionary that I think could be new protocols that sort of change the whole dynamic of how wireless works, that's pretty interesting. And then I'm looking at some other things that are just how you apply cloud to different problems in the world. If you look at the cloud paradigm, it's existed for a fair amount of time now, but although we talk about it all day, most of the things in the world, most of the apps, most of the problem sets are not leveraging any in the cloud. They're still at best using >> [John] Recycled IT. >> Recycled IT, or sometimes even Windows 98 for all you know, right? In Africa, Africa went to wireless directly, they never did wired. So there may be a lot of industries that never go from Windows to proper data centers. They just go straight from basic Windows directly to the cloud. There's lots of opportunities that are interesting there. I'm looking at a few CEO options. But it's very exciting, there's so much going on. There's just so many things happening. >> [John] Well let's get into that tomorrow, you're going to come by tomorrow at 4:30, folks watching tomorrow at 4:30 Pacific Time, Saar will be back in the studio, we're going to dig in to the entrepreneurial landscapes, I think one of the things that you highlighted that we were talking about earlier is that sometimes you have technology looking for a problem, and the reality is that most of the game changing opportunities come out of left field that no one sees, these are the revolutionary game changers, the new technology, the hard stuff, not just some app that gets built, it's the real hardcore tech that could be applied to some of these real problems. And I think that's going to be the key. Saar Gallai here inside the studio, breaking down Mobile World Congress with theCube here in Palo Alto covering what's happening in Barcelona. We got some still phone-ins, late night in Barcelona, we're going to make those shortly, be right back with more coverage after this short break. (soft music)

(car engines) >> [Voiceover] Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are here live in Palo Alto for the Cube's special coverage of two days of wall to wall coverage of Mobile World Congress 2017, we're doing it here in Palo Alto, covering what's happening in Barcelona, with folks over there, we've got analysts, we've got reporters, and we have friends there phoning in and sharing their commentary, certainly on Twitter as well. And we're doing it from inside our new studio in Palo Alto, and we're going to break it down. As their day ends, we're going to be analyzing and discussing the future implications of what it all means, teasing out the top news, giving our opinion and our commentary in reaction to all the breaking news. I'm John Furrier with Silicon Angle and theCube. I think the next guest is Willie Lu, who is a Facebook friend who I've been having conversations with, it's great to meet in person. He's a wireless guru, going back to his ph.D in the 90s, now chairman of the Palo Alto Research Group. Extensive experience in dealing with fixed wireless, mobile wireless, but more importantly, creating the technologies with industry to understand what's it going to take to invent the future. Willie, great to have you inside the studio. >> Thank you very much, John. >> One of the great things about having the Palo Alto studio is while everyone's out in Barcelona right now having dinner, probably going out for the evening, we get to sit inside the studio and talk about what they did today. So the big story inside Mobile World Congress in Barcelona was obviously, the devices. You're seeing Blackberry making a comeback, Nokia, you know, pumping their new muscles, bringing back the old Nokia Phone, and rolling out their new ones. Huawei, you got bringing in their Apple killer, they want to go up and down the stack. So certainly the device centric jewelry, if you will, the phone, the eye candy, the VR, the AR, the virtual reality. But also 5G. Intel, Qualcomm, Ericsson, Nokia, all the major telcos are rolling out essentially what they are calling 5G and beyond, which is essentially not just wireless, but an end to end network to be the new fabric of wireless. Not only for the devices in the phones, but the devices being the people in the cars. And the factories, and the cities, and the entertainment, this is an area that you have a lot of work in at a technical level. So I went to spend this segment talking about the picture of the future. Right? You know, obviously we need that next step up function of architecture, we need that next network. We need those next devices, that's something that you're thinking a lot about. What's your picture, what's the future look like for you? >> Yeah, thanks John. I'm the wireless mobile system architect for almost 25 to 30 years. So from my point of view, because I'm the technical eyes, from a technical point of view, when you're talking about mobile communications, normally we have three factors we have to trade off, compromise each other, okay? The first is high speed transmission, the second one is mobility, fluid mobility, the third one is capacity. Make sure capacity, right? Make sure the operator make money, right? So, before, previously in the last 20 or 30 years, our phones from the step-by-step, from 2G which is GSM or CDMA, the basic CDMA which is IS-95 to 3G which is WCDMA to the 4G which is OFGMA, including LTE. And these phones basically is still focused on one issues, even mobility issue, even high speed issue, but in the future in the 4G, 5G, 6G whatever, you know we need a very high speed. Very high speed, one giga beyond, over there. We also need a mobility, frame mobility, right? We also make sure able to make money, the operator make money, right? >> That's the number one. >> So how to, we want three, we want mobility, high speed, capacity. We, everything we need. And then single one standard is not going to work, because if you want pick LTE, a very high speed, you lose the mobility. If you pick free mobility, you lose the bandwidth. So the issue, that's the issue. We, 20 years ago, when I do the ph.D and when I was Stanford professor， I was a consulting professor at Stanford, we started the open wireless access, it's means converge a multiple standard together, converge the wifi, LTE, and the broadband wide access together in a same device. So when you have a wifi, you can go to wifi, which is very high speed, can be very very high speed in the future right? And then you go to the highway, where very fast there, you cannot get a wifi, but you can get LTE, or 3G or 2G, that's fine. So that's the research we are working on the open wireless access or open wireless architecture or OWA. And there's, it's the (inaudible) map is from TGMA, CGMA, OFDMA, to OWA. Okay, that's the technical point side. And for the device design side, my picture is for the next five years, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, which very clear, okay? Before that, in the last 20 years, everybody their mobile phones, is still a carrier-centric mobile phone. Is means when I have a mobile phone, it's AT&T, it's AT&T, it's locked to AT&T or it's AT&T phone, right? And right now, from last year to this year, we are on a very important transition from the carrier-centric phone to a user-centric phone. Yeah probably, couple of company, Google, other company, they are working on the, on the virtualization, mobile virtualization right? Means what? Means a user can pick up different operators on the way, right? So this phone, if I don't have signal, I don't have T-mobile signal, I can using AT&T to get a LTE. And if I don't have AT&T, I can use Verizon. So we are on the way from the carrier-centric to a user-centric at the moment. >> [John] So let's stop right there, 'cus I really think you're onto something really important and I think this is, there's some history to look at. I mean if you look at wireless, I agree, this is a very carrier-centric. And for the consumers out there, you can think of just the basic concepts of most people's experience: I want to unlock my phone, right? These are kind of known terms of consumers, whether they're, it's my kids or adults. "I don't want to be stuck to the carrier" "on their plan." "I want to move my phone around." But that's just on the service. Now you want to decouple it further to the person. So, take a car. I might want to have a relationship with my car, as if I'm, going to be never buying a car, I might use autonomous cars or Uber or other services. And I get into the car and I need personalization. So this is the user-centric thing is that super important point. But now we are stuck, still stuck, in my opinion, in siloed telco stacks, meaning I'm stuck to the carrier, I have limited services, and now I want to shift that to better performance. I mean you can't look any further than hyper convergence or converged infrastructure on the data centers. So where it's networking combining. So are you taking that same approach to say that you think wireless will converge in? Is that the idea? >> Yes, when you wireless converging. Take examples: wifi, LTE, and converge together. So your phone basically is running on wifi. Actually in the priority order, wifi first. Wifi first, and then second is LTE, and then probably 3G is the second one there. So, and then if you have wifi you go wifi, and if car, the car also can be a micro base station, okay, to connect to the wifi, LTE together, and then distribute to the passengers in the car, so this is also we can, for the future, work in mobile office project. I can stay in the car, and the car itself is a sub base station, and then connect each other. There also, okay let's talking about the future picture, okay. In the next five years, okay, there's a couple companies working, already working on the mobile wifi network. So it's means if I am living in Palo Alto there, I'm moving around in my neighborhood in Palo Alto, I don't have, I don't even add AT&T, Verizon operator, I can have a mobile service because I can share all neighbor's wifi networks together as a mobile protocol. Then I can moving, I can hike, I jogging, your house, my house to there. We can share the wifi together, we call. We divide the wifi into the home wifi, and the visitor wifi we can rent the service to outside. So this called community mobile network based on wifi. That's the next five years picture. >> [John] How does that happen? I mean I just found, first of all I believe, and that's a great philosophy. And you're starting to see Xfinity do that with their current wifi, creating a little metro neighborhood network. That's really hard to pull off 'cus of the security concerns. Is it viable in the next five years, do you think that is even doable? What has to happen to make that happen? >> I think this going to be not a major issue because wifi still have a lot of bandwidth, right? And you can exchange bandwidth with security issue there. So wifi is more easy to the security than LTE, because LTE for the similar network, the spectrum is very expensive right? So that's why we cannot using a lot of overheads for security. So I always say, the most secure is wifi, then LTE. 'Cus LTE, the data, right? When you open it, there's not much overhead available for secure encryption, whatever there. So wifi you can, >> [John] So they're maximizing their signal for performance, not security. >> Yeah, not security. And wifi you can take like 40%, 30% the overhead load for the security and it's very secure. So that's not issue, that's why. That's the five, next five moment. Okay and then beyond that, when the mobile wifi neighborhood is built, right? Then we back to the traditional settled operator networks there. We'll converge together, then user for the next ten years, after ten years, user can pick up his preferred operators as he like. For example, if I'm in Palo Alto and then AT&T give me a good package, right? They give an offer, and I click my AT&T, it's go to AT&T. And I back to the Cupertino and Cupertino, >> [John] It's like network hopping. >> Yeah. >> It's like not radio hop, frequency hopping, it's network hopping. >> That's an idea, right right right. But still you need a converging network info together. >> So let's take it back to Mobile World Congress. So right now the current present is, that they're painting the picture of a 5G world where autonomous vehicles, entertainment, smart cities, and smart home are all being powered by an end-to-end, from the network to the edge, software and capabilities, from silicon software to device. >> Yes. >> So that's cool, makes a lot of sense. Now is 5G truly the enabler, that 5, 6 G is the wireless enabler for this in your view? In your picture of the future, what role does wireless play in creating this new fabric? >> Yeah, I think it's very much possible because when I say when we converge the different wireless solutions together then you have more space to focus on one direction, you focus on very high speed. We can one giga, two giga, even ten giga is enough right? And the other side, we increase the mobility issue, right? And then the other side we converge on the operator side. In the future, I mean AT&T, Verizon, it's not, they're not going to just provide the cellular mobile access only, they want to provide more service around its 5G, 6G, be new business model right? For traditional business model, you just provide the radio, the hand phone access. But in future, this operator is going to help provide more service, service-oriented platform. >> Is that consistent, that service business model, is that viable in your vision of the future. What is, or let me ask differently. What is the business model for the operator, in your vision of this multi-network world? What do they do, what kind of services are they delivering? >> I think in the future, very important service, around the ten years, around the time frame, is very important service is called mobile virtualization service. So in the future, Google can run mobile service, but they're working with AT&T and Verizon. >> [John] It's like MVL on steroids, basically, it's all doing pipe management. >> Yeah and then let's say for example, Google did a contract with AT&T for how much bandwidth every year, probably one P, or a large bandwidth. And then AT&T provides its bandwidth to Google, right? And then AT&T can do other service also, so AT&T save a lot of cost in the individual marketing. You know, right now the operator spend a lot of money for the marketing, right? But later they can cut off this cost, because Google can do marketing, right? >> [John] So it's, this is economic reconfiguration. >> [Willie] Yes. >> Okay, so here's the next question. In today's landscape of the marketplace, what would be bad behavior from your standpoint, that would screw up that future? What would be the signs that it's not going the right way in the ecosystem, because part of the things that I'm seeing with things like Intel and the big players is there's an ecosystem that needs to get agreement; That to accelerate the future, there has to be a new model, a new network. What are some signs that are warning signs for you? You know, people holding onto a certain thing, certain technology. What would be a red flag for you, if you look at the marketplace, what kind of activities would say "woah, that's not good." >> Okay, I think it depends on, for the operator, I think it's not good, in the future it's not good, you just focus on making money from the access size. Because in the future, access will be cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. So if AT&T just focus on access revenue, it's going to red flag, okay? So you have to provide total solution, right? And from the vendor side, you cannot support one single standards. You only support LTE, it's going to dangerous. So you have to be open. So in the future, I think in the future, from my personal point of view, Comcast, AT&T, all these company, they are going to merge together. Because they want provide a converged solution, right? So in the future access will be cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. And then you have to, they have another revenues from the other sides. >> [John] I wrote a paper in 2001 called "Broadband Starvation". And it was the beginning before wifi really hit, and then wifi hit and New York Times picked it up, was one of those stories. But we talked about the starvation from America for more bandwidth. Obviously even outside the US, you saw accelerated bandwidth, broadband penetration. I called it the "Broadband Starvation" because broadband starvation was in rural areas, so it always was limited by the actual physical connection. You know, the cable, the last mile. We all know the history of the policy side of the Arbox and the days of you know, the telephone companies. But now Comcast and now AT&T (laugh), they're the fiber to the home, there's some, or the coaxial to the home. They bring in, off the street and terminate it into the house. Wireless changes that. Is that a scenario where you see 5G going where ultimately, this notion of fiber to the home could be you know, ancient history? Or, 'cus that always, there's still construction. You got to still trench, you still got provisions, and the circuits to the homes. You know, is wireless an opportunity there? And will that free up more competition? >> Yeah, I think that's a big question, and a big picture, okay. I think from my personal experience, when we design technology for next 10 years, 15 years, the very big picture you think about is very important is: we're on the way to transition, to transition from the mobile communication to a personal communication. So previously, the mobile communication >> Personal communication, you mean people-centric? >> Yeah, people-centric. So mobile communication, previously we call mobile communication is a telecom term. Is means just for connection, just for envisioning connection, right? But in future >> [John] Endpoint, that's it. >> Yeah that's right. So we're on the way. Even at some universities, they change the course from mobile communication to personal communication. Personal communication means is: everything is personal. Personal-centric, right? So in a personal-centric, so in the future, the operator, the vendor, the provider think about, in the future, you're not only provider, information connection only, you provide anything a person needed for his life, including health, security, right? Everything there. >> [John] Transportation. >> Transportation, yeah. >> [John] Could be all digital services. >> The transportation, security. >> healthcare. >> And everything there and then each application will need a different requirements of the bandwidth, right? Especially for the health, we need lots of lots of video transmission, right? And this is going to, that's why we need a WLAN, a wireless network, is converging together. And then wireless is still a lots, lots of way we have to invent. >> The word "convergence" is back again, it's happening everywhere. Willie, thanks so much for the commentary. Love this, this is consistent with, Wikibonds had a research, siliconANGLE had a research, Peter Burris who was on our opening segment talking about not IOT, only IOT, internet of things, but IOT and P, people. Internet of People. >> [Willie] Yes, and think about IOT, okay? What's the major technologies inside the IOT? One is sensing technology, okay? The other one is wireless connection, right? You want to connect to that billion billion nodes together, so we need a multidimensional, different wireless technology. How to connect this billion billion nodes together? That's also we need wireless technology. >> I worry about that not happening because I think the telcos have been slow, and I think I'm seeing movement now with the telcos, that now is the time to make their move. NFV's viable, and now their business model is somewhat emerging. The question is, will they be fast enough to move? That's the question. >> Yeah, I think. >> Are they? >> That's also my question, because the moving, the virtualization like from Google, they're moving very fast than a traditional telco, right? So telco have to change their way of thinking in the business, right? >> I think Google should be the telco, take over the telco. >> That's why in the the next five, ten years, people just go to Google, using Google account to get access to the phone, to the mobile phone. You get a phone number from Google, right? >> They're going to call it Apple World Congress, or Google World Congress. Uber World Congress, if we don't. >> But anyway, we still need everybody work together. It's like different wireless standards converge together. And different company they also want to converge together. And then eventually, the target is very simple. It's the personal, it's the personal centric, user centric, the wireless world. That's the future. >> [John] Willie Lu here from Palo Alto Research. In here Palo Alto, a good Facebook friend guru in the wireless area all the way down from back in his ph.D days, as a practitioner and inventing the future. Great vision, I agree with it 100%. I think Intel and all the big players would agree. The ecosystem of smart movement right now is critical, and I think there's a huge opportunity to, to tie it all together there in IOT and people, a people-centric world. Congratulations on your work at the Wireless Mobile Congress that you started, and also the open, this open alliance, open wireless alliance. Congratulations. Willie Lu here inside theCube, I'm John Furrier, for more exclusive coverage of Mobile World Congress here in Palo Alto after the short break. (electronic music) (cheerful electronic music)

I[Announcer] Live from Silicon Valley, it's "The Cube." Covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> 'Kay welcome back everyone, we are live in Palo Alto for "The Cube" special coverage of Mobile World Congress 2017. We're in our new 4,500 square foot studio, just moved in. We'll be expanding, you'll see a lot more in-studio coverage from "The Cube" as well as our normal going out to the events and extracting. Anyways I'm John Furrier Joining me is Jeff Frick. General manager of "The Cube." But a breakdown, all the action. As you know, we do a lot of data science. We've been watching the grid. We've been on the treadmill all weekend. All last week, digging into the Mobile World Congress. Sentiment, the vibe, the direction, and trying to synthesize all the action. And really kind of bring it all together for everyone here. And of course,we're doing it in Palo Alto. We're going to bring folks in from Silicon Valley that could not have made the trek to Barcelona. We're going to be talking to folks on the phone, who are in Barcelona. You heard from Lynn Comp from Intel. We have Floyd coming up next. CTO and SAP breaking down all the action from their new cloud. And big Apple news. SAP now has a general availability of the iOS native development kit. Which should change the game for SAP. There is tons of smart cities, smart stadiums, you know IOT, autonomous vehicles. So much going on at Mobile World Congress. We're going to break that down every day starting at 8AM. In-studio. And of course, I want to thank Intel for headlining our sponsorship and allowing us to create this great content. With some contributing support from SAP clouds I want to give a shout out, a bit shout out to Intel. Check out their booth. Check out their coverage. And check out their new SAP cloud, that's been renamed from HANA Cloud to SAP cloud. Without their support we wouldn't be able to bring this wall-to-wall great commentary. Jeff so with that aside. We got two days. We've got Laura Cooney coming in. Bob Stefanski managing this bridge between Detroit and Silicon Valley. And all that great stuff. Phones are ringing off the hook here in the studio. Go tweet us by the way at the cube or at ferrier We have Guy Churchwood coming in. We have great content all week. We have entrepreneurs. We have Tom Joyce, a Cube alumni. Who's an executive interviewing for a bunch of CEO positions. Really going to break down the changing aspect of Mobile World Congress. The iPhone's 10 years old. We're seeing now a new step function of disruption. Peter Burris said the most terrible in time. And I even compounded the words by saying and the phones are getting faster. So it's beyond the device. I mean what are you seeing on the grid? When you look at the data out there? >> John a bunch of things as we've been watching the stream of the data that came in and surprised me. First off just a lot of early announcements around Blackberry and Nokia. Who are often not really mentioned as the leaders in the handsets base. Not a place that we cover real extensively. But really kind of, these guys making a move and really taking advantage of the void that Samsung left with some of the Note issues. But what I thought was even more interesting is on our hashtag monitoring tools that IOT and 5G are actually above any of the handset manufacturers. So it really supports a hypothesis that we have that while handsets will be better and there'll be more data enabled by 5G, what 5G's really all about is as an IOT enabler. And really another huge step in the direction of connected devices, autonomous vehicles. We've talked about it. We cover IOT a lot. But I thought that was pretty interesting. >> Well Robo Car's also in there. That's a. >> Well everybody loves a car right. >> Well it's kind of a symbol of the future of the car. Which again ties it all together. >> Right right. The driverless race car, which is pretty interesting. >> Takes sports to a whole other level. >> I thought that was interesting. Another little thing as we watch these digital assistants and these voice assistants John, and I got a couple for Christmas just so I could try them out, is that Motorola announced that they're going to partner with Alexa. And use the Alexa voice system inside of their phones. You know I'm still waiting, I don't know why Siri doesn't have a stand-alone device and really when you use a Google Home versus an Amazon Alexa, very different devices, really different kind of target. So I thought that was an interesting announcement that also came out. But fundamentally it's fun to see the support of IOT and 5G, and really enable this next great wave of distribution, disruption, and opportunity. >> We're going to have Saar Gillia in the studio later today and tomorrow as a guest analyst for us on "The Cube." Of course folks may know Saar from being on "The Cube," he was recently senior vice reporting to Meg Whitman, and built out that teleco service provider, NFV business model for HP. And he's been to Mobile World Congress almost every year. He didn't make it this year, he'll be coming in the studio. And he told me prior to being, extremely vetting him for "The Cube" if you will, to use a Trump term, after extreme vetting of Saar Gillia he really wants to make the point of, and this is going to be critical analysis, kind of poking a hole into the hype, which is he doesn't think that the technology's ready for primetime. And specifically he's going to comment around he doesn't believe that the apps are ready for all this bandwidth. He doesn't think, he thinks that 5G is a solution looking for a problem. And I don't necessarily agree with him, so we'll have a nice commentary. Look for Saar today on "The Cube," at 11:30 he's coming on. It's going to be a little bit of a cage match there with Saar. >> I always go back to the which is the most underrepresented and most impactful law. Which is probably in the short term, in the hype cycle 5G's probably not going to deliver on their promise up to the level of the hype. As we find over and over with these funny things like Bluetooth. Who would ever think Bluetooth would be such an integral part of so many things that we do today? I think over the long term, the mid term, I think the opportunity's giant. >> I meant I think for people to understand 5G, at least the way I always describe it over the weekend, when I was at lacrosse games and soccer games over the weekend, for the folks that aren't in tech, 5G is the holy grail for IOT, mobile cars, and AI. Because what 5G does, it creates that mesh of rf, or rf radio frequency, at a whole other level. You look at the radios that Intel's announcing across their Telco partners, and what Intel's doing really is a game-changer. And we all know LTE, when the signal's low on the phone, everyone freaks out. We all know when WiFi doesn't work, the world kind of comes to a crawl. I mean just think 15 years ago wifi wasn't even around. So now think about the impact of just what we rely on with the digital plumbing called wireless. >> [Jeff] Right, right. >> When you think about the impact of going around the fiber to the home, and the cost it takes, to bring fiber to, Lynn Comp was commenting on that. So having this massively scalable bandwidth that's a radio frequency wireless is just a game-changing thing you can do. Low latency, 10 20 gig, that's all you need. Then you're going to start to see the phones change and the apps change. And as Peter Burris said a turbulent change of value propositions will emerge. >> It's funny at RSA a couple of weeks back the chatter was the people at RSA, they don't use wifi. You know, they rely on secure mobile networks. And so 5G is going to enable that even more, and as you said, if you can get that bandwidth to your phone in a safer, and secure, more trusted way, you know what is the impact on wifi and what we've come to expect on our devices and the responsiveness. And all that said, there will be new devices, there will be new capabilities. And I guess the other thing that's kind of funny is that of course the Oscar's made their way up to the, on the board. I thought that might wipe everything out after last night. But no IOT and 5G is still above Oscar's on the trending hashtag. >> Well I mean, Oscar's bring up... It's funny we all watch the Oscar's. There was some sort of ploy, but again, you bring up entertainment with the Oscar's. You look at what Hollywood's going through, and the Hollywood Reporter had an article talking about Reed Hastings with Netflix, he talked today really kind of higher end video so the entertainment business is shifting the court cutting is happening, we're seeing more and more what they call over the top. And this is the opportunity for the service providers but also for the entertainment industry. And with social media and with all these four form factors changing the role of media will be a packet data game. And how much can you fit in there? Whether it's e-sports to feature film making, the game is certainly changing. And again, I think Mobile World Congress is changing so radically. It's not just a device show anymore, it's not about the handset. It's about what the enablement is. I think that's why the 5G impact is interesting. And making it all work together, because a car talking to this device, it's complicated. So there's got to be the glue, all kind of new opportunities. So that's what I'm intrigued by. The Intel situation where you've got two chip guys battling it out for who's going to be that glue layer under the hood >> Right and if you look at some of the quotes coming out of the show a lot of the high-level you got to get away from the components and get into the systems and solutions, which we hear about over and over and over again. It's always about systems and solutions. I think they will find a problem to solve, with the 5G. I think it's out there. But it is... >> My philosophy Jeff is kill me with the bandwidth problem. Give me more bandwidth, I will consume more bandwidth. I mean look at compute pal as an example. People thought Morse law was going to cap out a decade ago. You look at the compute power in the chips with the cloud, with Amazon and the cloud providers it's almost infinite computes. So then the role of data comes in. So now you got data, now you got mobile, I think give us more bandwidth, I think the apps have no problem leveling up. >> [Jeff] Sucking it up. >> And that's going to be the debate with Saar. >> It's the old chip. The Intel Microsoft thing where you know, Intel would come out with a faster chip then the OS with eat more of it as part of the OS. And it kept going and going. We've talked through a lot of these John and if you're trying to predict the future and building for the future you really have to plan now for almost infinite bandwidth for free. Infinite storage for free, infinite compute for free. And while those curves are kind of asymptotically free they're not there yet. That is really the world in which we're heading. And how do you reshape the way you design apps, experiences, interphases without those constraints, which before were so so significant. >> I'm just doing a little crowd check here, you can go to crowdcheck.net/mwc if you want to leave news links or check in with the folks chatting. And I was just talking to SAP and SAP had the big Apple news. And one of the things that's interesting and Peter Burris talked about this on our opening this morning is that confluence between the consumer business and then the infrastructures happening. And that it was called devos but now you're starting to see the developers really focusing on the business value of technology. But yet it's not all developers even though people say the developers, the new king-makers, well I would say that. But the business models still is driven by the apps. And I think developers are certainly closer to the front lines. But I think you're going to start to see a much more tighter coupling between the c level folks in business and the developers. It's not just going to be a developer-led 100% direction. Whether it's entertainment, role of data, that's going to be pretty interesting Jeff. >> So Apple's just about finished building the new spaceship headquarters right. I think I opens up next month. I'm just curious to get your take John on Apple. Obviously the iPhone changed the game 10 years ago. What' the next big card that Apple's going to play? 'Cause they seemed to have settled down. They're not at the top of the headlines anymore. >> Well from my sources at Apple, there are many. Deep inside at the highest levels. What I'm hearing is the following. They're doing extremely well financially, look at the retail, look at the breadth of business. I think Tim Cook has done an amazing job. And to all my peers and pundits who are thrashing Apple they just really don't know what they're talking about. Apple's dominating at many levels. It's dominating firstly on the fiscal performance of the company. They're a digital presence in terms of their stickiness is second to none. However, Apple does have to stay in their game. Because all the phone guys they are in essence copying Apple. So I think Apple's going to be very very fine. I think where they could really double down and win on is what they did getting out of the car business. I think that was super smart. There was a post by Auto Blog this weekend saying Silicon Valley failed. I completely disagree with that statement. Although in the short term it looks like on the scoreboard they're kind of tapping out, although Tesla this year. As well as a bunch of other companies. But it's not about making the car anymore. It's all about the car's role in a better digital ecosystem. So to me I think Apple is poised beautifully to use their financial muscle, to either buy car companies or deal with the digital aspect of it and bring that lifestyle to the car, where the digital services for the personalization of the user will be the sticking point for the transportation. So I think Apple's poised beautifully for that. Do they have some issues? Certainly every company does. But compared to everyone else I just see no one even close to Apple. At the financial level, with the cash, and just what they're doing with the tax. From a digital perspective. Now Google's got a self-driving cars, Facebook's a threat, Amazon, so those are the big ones I see. >> The other thing that's happening this week is the game developer conference in San Francisco at Moscone. So you know again, huge consumers of bandwidth, huge consumers of compute power. Not so much storage. I haven't heard much of the confluence of the 5G movement with the game developer conference. But clearly that's going to have a huge impact 'cause most gaming is probably going to move to a more and more mobile platform, less desktop. >> Well the game developer conference, the one that's going on the GDC, is kind has a different vibe right now. It's losing, it's a little bit lackluster in my mind. It's classic conference. It's very monetized. It seems to be over-monetized. It's all about making money rather than promoting community. The community in gaming is shifting. So you can look at how that show is run, versus say e three and now you've got Twitch Con. And then Mobile World Congress, one of the big voids is there's no e-sports conversation. That certainly would be the big thing to me. To me, everything that's going digital, I think gaming is going to shift in a huge way from what we know as a console cult. It's going to go completely mainstream, in all aspects of the device. As 5G overlays on top of the networks with the software gaming will be the first pop. You're going to see e-sports go nuclear. Twitch Con, those kind of Twitch genre's going to expand. Certainly "The Cube" will have in the future a gaming cube. So there'll be a cube anchor desk for most the gaming culture. Certainly younger hosts are going to come one. But to me I think the gaming thing's going to be much more lifestyle. Less culty. I think the game developer conference's lost its edge. >> And one of the other things that comes, obviously Samsung made a huge push. They were advertising crazy last night on the Oscar's, with the Casey add about you know, people are creating movies. And they've had their VR product out for a while but there's a lot of social activity saying what is going to be the killer app that kind of breaks through VR? We know Oculus has had some issues. What do you read in between the tea leaves there John? >> Well it's interesting the Oscar's was awesome last night, I would love to watch the Hollywood spectacle but one of the things that I liked was that segway where they introduced the Oscar's and they kind of were tongue in cheek 'cause no one in Hollywood really has any clue. And they were pandering, well we need to know what they meant. It was really the alpha geeks who were pioneering what used to be the green screen technology now you go and CGI it's our world. I mean I want to see more of that because that is going to be the future of Hollywood. The tools and the technologies for filmmaking is going to have a Morse law-like impact. It's the same as e-sports, you're going to see all kinds of new creative you're going to see all kinds of new tech. They talked about these new cameras. I'm like do a whole show on that, I would love it. But what it's going to enable is you're going to see CGI come down to the price point where when we look at PowerPoints and Adobe Creative Suite and these tools. You're going to start to see some badass creative come down for CGI and this is when the artist aspect comes in. I think art design will be a killer field. I think that is going to be the future of filmmaking. You're going to see an indie market explode in terms of talent. The new voices are going to emerge, the whole diversity thing is going to go away. Because now you're going to have a complete disruption of Hollywood where Hollywood owns it all that's going to get flattened down. I think you're going to see a massive democratization of filmmaking. That's my take. >> And then of course we just continue to watch the big players right. The big players are in here. It's the start ups but I'm looking here at the Ford SAP announcement that came across the wire. We know Ford's coming in at scale as stuff with IBM as well So those people bring massive scale. And scale is what we know drives pricing and I think when people like to cap on Morse law they're so focused on the physical. I think the power of Morse law has nothing to do with the microprocessor per se. But really it's an attitude. Which we talked a little briefly about what does the world look like if you have infinite networking, infinite compute, and infinite storage. And basically free. And if you start to think that way that changes your perspective on everything. >> Alright Jeff well thanks for the commentary. Great segment really breaking down the impact of Mobile World Congress. Again this show is morphing from a device show phone show, to full on end-to-end network. Intel are leading the way and the entire ecosystem on industry partners, going to write software for this whole new app craze, and of course we'll be covering it here all day today Monday the 27th and all the day the 28th. Stay tuned stay watching. We've got more guests coming right back with more after the short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley. It's theCUBE. Covering Mobile World Congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are live here in Palo Alto for special two days of wall-to-wall coverage for Mobile World Congress. Here in our new 45 hundred square foot studio in Palo Alto. We have folks on the ground. Analysts, we have reporters in Barcelona, but we're going to be covering all the action here in our studio, where we're going to bring folks from Silicon Valley who did not make the trek to Barcelona here to weigh in with reaction and commentary and opinions and analysis of all the happenings of Mobile World Congress. But first, as the day winds down Monday in Europe, we wanted to make sure we get on the phone and get with folks who are on the ground. And right now on the phone we have Floyd Strimling who's the global vice president of HANA Cloud, I'm sorry, the HANA Cloud Platform which the big news was, they renamed their product from SAP HANA Cloud Platform to SAP Cloud Platform. Floyd Strimling, thanks for taking the time after your dinner. Thanks for coming on. >> Floyd: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be there. Happy to help out and give you some insights on what's going on here in beautiful Barcelona. It's actually quite warm here. >> Is it warm? I saw some umbrellas over the weekend but great city, I would love to have been there, but I wanted to anchor the coverage here. One of my favorite cities. But first, tell me what's going on. Obviously over the weekend we were preparing, we were covering all the content for the folks watching, CUBE365.net/MWC17. The news is all there. Every single piece of signal is there. Go to our site. Check it out. Floyd, what's happening? It's been a hand-set show all weekend. Obviously Nokia making a comeback. Blackberry making a comeback. LG, Huawei, Hess Phones, they all want to be Apple, but yet 5G is also dominating as well. So there's a culture clash. What's happening in Barcelona? What's your analysis? >> Floyd: The biggest thing that I was surprised by is exactly what you're talking about. The number of headset announcements and the number of displays that are all based upon new devices and the nostalgia for Blackberry and Nokia continues. People are rooting for them to make a comeback. In the meantime, you've got new devices from Huawei. You've got Samsung doing announcements. You know you're in the show when Sony has a big presence in Europe with their handsets, which I don't see too much in North America and it just seems to be everybody is gunning really for maybe what they foresee as the perceived weakness in Apple just not going for the killer 7 and waiting for the 8 to change the game. And they're all going to try to knock them off the pedestal. There's some very interesting phones that are out there. 5G is definitely everywhere, too. Everyone's talking about it. Everyone's trying to be the first. Trying to show, especially the streaming capabilities. What that'll be able to do and what it'll be able to change. And then, you know what? One of my favorite sections was the drones. We got to see some commercial carbon fiber drones that I never saw up and personal. See what's going on in there. A lot of interesting things going on with those things and more than just delivery, right? Everything that you could possibly do. There's no shortage of IoT and connected this, connected that, but they're adding a flavor of AI now. And I think we still got to get to Step 1 with IoT before we go to Step 2. So, it's been interesting to watch people try to leapfrog each other as they move towards new technologies. [Interviewer] How big is the crowd there? How packed is it? I mean one of the things we were talking about was the identity crisis of the show, Mobile World Congress, you mentioned people going after Apple. But also Samsung. Remember, they're bailing out of the show. They had their own little presser conference last night, they're not active in the show and they have their own problems. I mean the Galaxy 7 blowing up is, everyone's going after Samsung and Apple on the phone side, but you've got Sony, you've got 4K screens, you've got Netflix there, you've got entertainment, it's like a CES wannabe show for those guys, and at the same time it's a serious meat-and-potatoes Telco show with a lot of 5G, IoT, and I haven't heard anything about E-Sports. I saw a little bit with Twitch doing some stuff there, but for the most part, it's a digital show. So is there a huge crowd there and what's the demographics like there for the makeup of the attendees? >> Floyd: You know, I'm seeing big crowds, judging from how long it takes to take a taxi or get the subway. It's a lot of people there. And I'm seeing it's mixed. I'm actually seeing quite a few large enterprises from around the world. They're looking around, just looking at different technology and trying to make sense of what's happening. I do see the big Telcos are here. You know, everything from Telefonica, you of course have Huawei, you have T-Mobile, and Orange and a bunch of those major vendors that are doing it. I'm also seeing HPE and Intel on the same show area that we are on the other side that are generating traffic. I think the mix is pretty good this year and I will tell you, look, I've been to a lot of shows and some shows have trouble drawing people and this medium, some people are saying is not going to survive. I love going to the show and actually feeling the energy. 'Cause there is a ton of people here, there are a ton of large exhibitions with some really interesting stuff. VR, some geek talk, some funny stuff. There's people selling cases, you know, for your phone. I thought that was kind of awesome to see that again. I mean it's all over the place. I think the show is extremely healthy and it's as busy as ever. [Interviewer] One of the things about Mobile World Congress, it's a lot of business development, too. There's some heavy hitters there. It's kind of like Sun Valley meets, you know, the CES show. It really is a mix there. I want to get your take on some of the emerging areas that are really exploding in the mind of the consumer. And these are forward-thinking categorical areas. Autonomous vehicles, Smart Cities, Smart Home and, just in general, this new IoT area. So, what's your take on those areas? I mean, autonomous vehicles, they're huge. But Smart Cities, Smart Home, entertainment, is there a lot of buzz there? You guys have a stadium exhibit. What's the sexy demos? What's the sexy areas? >> Floyd: Yeah, I'll tell you a couple of things on this. You know, on the autonomous vehicles, now it's not just autonomous vehicles, it's going to try to be the first 5K autonomous vehicles. You know, people are looking at just pushing the envelope on it. And I think in Europe where people definitely love to drive, it's big, but I don't know if it's got the same excitement as you do in the traffic-jammed areas of the United States where we're constantly battling this and to put the car into autonomous mode and be able to do something else while stuck on the 405 would be a nice thing to do. I do think that the Smart homes is extremely interesting right now. I mean you have some of the people getting their arms around and I'm starting to see people actually talking about it and you know, a lot of people talking about smart things. This ability through a single gateway to be able to connect to all different types of devices, to be able to hook in with Alexa and Google Home and to be able to actually do more things with it and trying to make it simpler. So that I can do this reliably and easily. That's what everyone wants right now. On the Smart Cities front, I'm seeing a lot of people talk about Smart Cities. I think we're still kind of in that experimentation phase. You know a lot of geo-sensing stories I'm seeing. Some power conservations for lights. The ones that I'm interested in are kind of like traffic management. I'm extremely interested in this. Where we finally can get even smarter traffic lights and systems where you can do things like turn on no left turn or make a lane that's all four lanes. You know, make it one direction if traffic comes up. Very interesting concepts that people are trying out. You know for SAP, the biggest thing that we've got going, it continues to be our Smart Stadium demonstration. Every time that runs it's standing room only. People very interested about. Of course, it's a football, European football, not American football, so we're showing what you can do, and teams experience watching the games and actually how you can change the experience of training. And tremendous amounts of people interested in that. I mean, it's always an amazing crowd of people. Just because it's so intriguing and something we can all relate to. Because we want to have a better experience with this. [Interviewer] You know, Floyd, the Smart Stadiums thing is a really interesting thing. I just shared a link on the CUBE365.net/MWC17, that's our URL for our new CUBE365 all year long site. But one of the articles I shared was from the FC Barcelona Football Club and there was a speech at Mobile World Congress where the president gave a talk to explain the role FC Barcelona in the development of sports through knowledge and innovation to generate value for the club and society. And you think about the stadium aspect of what you were just talking about, is interesting. It's a place where people get together in an analog world, but yet when you weave in a digital services, the role of say an SAP, powering the database and doing all the back office things to power the business, combined with IoT, you now can bring in real people into experiences that are tied to the sports. But also you can go beyond that. You can take that digital interaction and take it to the next level. So there is a data aspect to a society role here. So you're seeing sports teams going beyond marketing their club to having an impact. Can you share any color on that? Do you agree? Do you guys have anything that you're showing? >> Floyd: Well, I agree. I think that much like racing is for the auto industry to bring innovations to the consumer side, or you could even say masses and states that comes into all of our lives. I think that this work is going to push the envelope, even harder than other areas, simply because they know that hundredths of a second is the difference between winning and losing. You know, we've gone with McLaren for years, working with them on tracking their race cars and building dashboards and giving them information. And now to be able to bring that type of technology to the stadium and bend the way that you actually have that interactive experience, it actually makes it that you want to go to the stadiums. Which is, you know, people are, it's a little bit of a hassle. You got the traffic, you got the people, it's like you can sit on your couch and watch it on your 4K television and be happy. I think that people need a way to actually draw the crowds in there. And I think that the interactions, especially with the work that we're doing with Apple and building native applications using our Fiori Technology and our UI Technology, it's starting to really bring together those classical back-end systems with all that rich data and bring it forward so people can actually experience what that data means and use it a different way. So I definitely agree with you. I enjoy working with the sports teams, 'cause they're willing to try anything that gives them a competitive advantage, and it's interesting how to take that technology and then apply it to the consumer and the business world. [Interviewer] Well, you know, we love to be called the ESPN of Tech, so we love sports here. So anytime you have a great sports event you can invite us to, we'd be happy to accept your invitation in advance. Appreciate that. Floyd, of course, great coverage. I'll give you the final word, and next we have a minute or two left. I'll say SAP big announcement with the Apple software development kit, the IOS general availability now. You got native developer support. That's classic bringing cloud native developers into the SAP fold which dominates the enterprise and business base from sports firms to large enterprises. Great marketplace behind that. But you guys are doing a lot more with IoT, AI and machine learning. Share, just take a minute to talk about the key things that SAP is doing for the folks watching. Because losing the name HANA Cloud really emphasizes that SAP is SASifying their entire business, which includes things like microservices, and having kind of IoT as a service and managing workloads dynamically in realtime with a consumer front-end feel to it. Take a minute to describe the key important points of what you guys announced and are impacting. >> Floyd: I would say the biggest thing that we have going really is two-fold. One, it's the elevation of this brand. SAP protects our brand. It's a very, very noticeable and valuable brand. To elevate the platform to a top-tier brand, basically it's signaling to everybody, our customers, our partners, independent software vendors, our competitors, anyone else out there that SAP is serious about building a platform in the cloud that is world-class, enterprise grade and has the capabilities that our customers need to make this digital transformation and we're coming. We're going to innovate at a fast clip and we're not that old SAP that people think about. I think the partnership with Apple further shows that. I mean Apple is very choosy about who they work with. They're at our booth. They're helping us They're showing the demonstrations. They're working on the SDK. And that realization that, hey, to build these world-class native applications, using Swift and this SDK and the capabilities that would bring, are now elevating that game in the mobile space for our customers, which is key. And I think it's a very powerful partnership because we're both such recognizable brands and we both have a really solid enterprise presence and a large ecosystems. On the services, you know, the big thing I would just say, is the IoT services is ready for people to use now in the Beta fashion. It's combining all the access so we can build a device cloud with the Symantec data model that's a little bit different than other people are doing. And combining that with our Leonardo applications which give you a good idea of what's possible on the cloud. And to be able to keep pushing that forward, I think is key. We have the big data services which was the alpha scale announcement, acquisition now being fully integrated into the platform is huge. It basically gives us world-class Spark Services, which we need to be able to compete in this world. You know and I think that the service improvements are there. There's some good service improvements incremental and some things that our enterprises really want from us, like workflow and the ability to put a little infrastructure in there with virtual machines. And our data center build out. You know, friends don't let your friends build data centers, but some companies have to build data centers, so having the ability to have a data center now in Japan and in China, is key to our customers, especially with all this legal wrangling that's going on in clouds. So I think all in all for SAP, it's been a great show. A great place to showcase that we're doing stuff differently and watch out for what we're going to be doing in the future. Because we got a lot more stuff coming, and we're going to be a player in this space. And we're ready. [Interviewer] All right, Floyd Strimling, global vice president with SAP Cloud Platform. Final question, I mean I got to ask you. How's the food? How's the tapas? Are you going to take a nap and then stay out 'til four in the morning then doing it all over again? Barcelona style? >> Floyd: It is Barcelona-style right now. I got to go get some Sangria, some tapas and then we'll hit the places that the tourists don't go to, and have some real good time with the locals. You can't come to Barcelona and go to sleep, that's not allowed. [Interviewer] All right. You're not allowed. Hey, spread the CUBE love for us out there. Really appreciate your taking the time. Thanks, Floyd. We'll talk to you later. Thanks so much. >> Floyd: Thanks. [Interviewer] Okay, Floyd Strimling on the ground in Barcelona here on theCUBE by remote coverage from Palo Alto. We're going to be going wall-to-wall 'til six o'clock tonight, 8 a.m. tomorrow morning, and again, we'll have reaction from folks on the ground in Barcelona. Hopefully we'll get some folks late night and hopefully it might be a little bit lubricated up a little bit, socially lubricated, get to share some good dirt. That's where all the action's happening, up in Barcelona and this is theCUBE. We'll be right back with more coverage, more analyses. We've got Tom Joyce coming in, industry executive to help me break down from his perspectives, the horses on the track. Who's going to win, who's going to lose, and what's going on with NFV? Because NFV certainly now has a bigger opportunity with 5G connecting all these devices together. That's the big story as well as the big devices and the new upgrades. Be back with more after this short break.