(upbeat intro music) >> Good afternoon, fellow tech nerds. My name is Savannah Peterson, coming to you from theCube's Remote Studio here in Motown, Detroit, Michigan where we are at KubeCon. John, this is our 12th interview of the day. How are you feeling? >> I'm feeling fresh as the first interview. (Savannah laughs) As always. >> That delivery really implied a level of freshness. >> Let's go! No, this is only Day 1. In three days, reinvent. We go hardcore. These are great events. We get so much great content. The conversations are amazing. The guests are awesome. They're technical, they're smart, and they're making the difference in the future. So, this next segment about Scale MySQL should be awesome. >> I am very excited to introduce our next guest who actually has a Twitter handle that I think most people, at least of my gender in this industry would love to have. She is @ATechGirl. So you can go ahead and tweet her and tell her how great this interview is while we're live. Please welcome Deepthi Sigireddi. Thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're feeding us in. You've got two talks you're giving while we're here. >> Yes, yes. So tomorrow we will be talking about VTR, myself and one of the other maintainers of Vitess and on Friday we have the Vitess Maintainer Talk. All graduated projects get a maintainer talk. >> Wow, so you are like KubeCon VIP celebrity. >> Well, I hope so. >> Well, you're a maintainer and technical lead, also software engineer at the PlanetScale. But talk about the graduation process where that means to the project and the people involved. >> So Vitess graduated in 2019 and there are strict criteria for graduation and you don't just have to meet the minimum, you sort of have to over perform on the graduation criteria. Some of which are like there must be at least two large production deploys and people from those companies have to go in front of the CNCF committee that approves these things and say that, "Yes, this project is critical to our business." >> A lot of peer review, a lot of deployment success. >> Yes. >> Good consistency in the code. >> Deepthi: Community diversity. >> All that. >> All those things. >> Talk about the importance of this project. What is the top story that people should know about around the project? Why it exists, why it's important, why it's relevant, why it's cool. How would you answer that? >> So MySQL is now 30 years old and yet they are still- >> Makes me feel a little sidebar. (Deepthi laughs) Yeah. >> And yet even though there are many other newer databases, it continues to be used at many of the largest internet scale companies. And some of them, for example, Slack, GitHub, Square, they have grown to a level where they could not have if they had tried to do it with Vanilla MySQL that they started with, and the only reason they are where they are is Vitess. So that is I think the number one thing people should know about Vitess. >> And the origination story on notes say "Came from YouTube." >> Yes. So the way Vitess started was that YouTube was having problems with their MySQL deployment and they got tired of dealing with the site being down. So the founders of Vitess decided that they had to do something about it and they started building Vitess which started as a pretty small, relatively code-based with limited features, and over time they built charting and all of the other things that we have today. >> Well, this is exciting Savannah because we've seen this industry. Like with Facebook, when they started, everyone built their own stuff. MySQL was a great- >> Oh gosh, and everyone wanted to build it their way, reinventing the wheel. >> And MySQL was great. And then as it kind of broke when it grew, it got retrofitted. So, it was constantly being scaled up to the point where now you guys, if I get this right, said, "Hey, we're going to work on this. We're going to make it next-gen." So it's kind of like next-gen MySQL. Almost. >> Yes, yes. I would say that's pretty accurate, yeah. So there are still large companies which run their own MySQL and they have scaled it in their own way, but Vitess happens to be an open source way of scaling MySQL that people can adopt without having to build all of their own tooling around it. >> Speaking of that and growing, you just announced a new version today. >> Yes, yes. >> Tell us about that. >> The focus in this version was to make Vitess easier to use and to deploy. So in the past, there was one glaring gap in Vitess which was that Vitess did not automatically detect and repair MySQL level failures. With this release, we've actually closed that gap. And what that means for people using Vitess is that they will actually spend less time dealing with outages manually, or less human intervention, More automated recovery is what it means. The other thing we've released today is a new web UI. Vitess had a very old web UI, ugly, hard to maintain. Nobody liked it. But it was functional, except we couldn't add anything new to it because it was so old. So, the backend functionality kept advancing but the front end was kind of frozen. Now we have a next generation UI to which in upcoming releases we can add more and more functionality. >> So, it's extensible. They add things in. >> Deepthi: Oh yes, of course. Yeah. >> Awesome. What's the biggest thing that you like about the new situation? Is it more contributors are on board the UI? What's the fresh new impact that's happening in the community? What's getting you excited about with the current project? And the UI's great 'cause usability is important. >> Deepthi: Right. >> Scalability is important. >> I think Vitess solved the scalability problem way early and only now we are really grappling with the usability problem. So the hope and the desire is to make Vitess autopilot so that you reduce human intervention to a minimum once you deploy it. Obviously, you have to go through the process of deploying it. But once you've deployed it, it should just run itself. >> Runs at scale. So, the scale's huge? >> Deepthi: Yes. >> How many contributors are involved in the project? Can you give some numbers? Do you have any handy that you can speak to? >> Right. So, CNCF actually tracks these statistics for all the projects and we consolidated some numbers for the last two full calendar years, 2020 and 2021. We had over 400 contributors and 200 plus of them contributed code and the others contributed documentation issues, website changes, and things like that. So that gives- >> How about downloads? Download's good? >> Oh, okay. So we started publishing the current official Vitess Docker Image in 2018. And by October of 2020, we had about 3.8 million downloads. And by August of 2021, we had 5.2 million. And today, we have had over 10 million downloads- >> Wow! >> Of the main image. >> Starting to see a minute of that hockey stick that we all like to see. Seems like you're very clearly a community-first leader and it seems like that's in the PlanetScale and the test's DNA. Is that how the whole company culture views it? Would you say it's community-first business? >> PlanetScale is very much committed to Vitess as an open source project and to serving the Vitess community. So as part of my role at PlanetScale, some of the things I do are helping new contributors whether they are from PlanetScale or from outside PlanetScale. A number of PlanetScale engineers who don't work full-time on Vitess still contribute bug fixes and features to Vitess. We spend a significant amount of our energy helping users in our community Slack. The releases we do are mainly for the benefit of the community and PlanetScale is making those releases because for Planet Scale... Within PlanetScale, we actually do separate releases versus the public ones. >> One of the things that's coming up here at the show is deploying on Kubernetes. How does that look like? Everyone wants ease of use. Are you guys easy to use? >> Yes, yes. So PlanetScale also open sourced a Kubernetes operator for Vitess that people outside PlanetScale are using to run their production deployments of Vitess. Prior to that, there were Vitess users who actually built their own Kubernetes deployments of Vitess and they are still running those, but new users and new adopters of Vitess tend to use the Kubernetes operator that we are publishing. >> And you guys are the managed service for Vitess for the people that that's the business model for PlanetScale. >> Correct. So PlanetScale has a serverless database on demand which is built on Vitess. So if someone's starting something new and they just need a database, you sign up. It takes 30 seconds to get a database. Connect to it and start doing things with it. Versus if you are a large enterprise and you have a huge database deployment, you can migrate to PlanetScale, import all of your existing data, cut over with minimal downtime and then go, and then PlanetScale manages that. >> And why would they do that? What's the use case for that? Save time new development team or refactoring? >> Save time not being able to hire people with the skills to run it in-house. Not wanting to invest engineering resources in what businesses think is not their core competency. They want to focus on their business value. >> So, this database is a service in their whatever they're doing without adding more costs. >> Right. >> And speed. Okay, cool. How's that going? >> It's going well. >> Any feedback from customers in terms of why that there are any benefit statements you seek popping out? What are the big... What's the big aha when they... When people realize what they have here, what's the aha moment for them? Do they go, "Wow, this is awesome. It's so easy. Push a button. Migrate." Or is it... >> All of those. And people have actually seen cost savings when they've migrated from Amazon RDS to PlanetScale and we have testimonials from people who've said that, "It was so easy to use PlanetScale. Why would we try to do it ourselves?" >> It's the best thing a customer could say, right? We're all about being painkillers and solving some sort of problem. I think that that's a great opportunity to let you show off some of your customers. So, who is receiving this benefit? 'Cause I know PlanetScale specifically is for a certain style of business. >> Hmm. We have a list of customers on the website. >> Savannah: I was going to say you have a really- >> John: She's a software engineer. She's not marketing. >> You did sexy. >> You're doing a great job as much as marketing. >> So the reason I am bringing this up is because it's clear this is a solution for companies like Square, SoundCloud, Etsy, Jordan, and other exciting brands. So when you're talking about companies at scale, these companies are very much at scale, which is awesome. >> Yeah. >> What's next? What do you guys see the future for the project? >> I think we talked about that a little bit already. So, usability is a big thing. We did the new UI. It's not complete, right? Because over the last four years we've built more features into the backend which you can't yet access from the UI. So we want to be able for people to use things like online schema changes which is a big feature of Vitess. Doing schema changes without downtime from the UI. So, schema management from the UI. Vitess has something called VReplication which is the core technology that enables charting. And right now you can from the UI monitor your charting status, but you can't actually start charting from the UI. So more of the administrative functions we want to enable from the UI. >> John: Awesome. >> Last question. What are you personally most excited about this week being here with our wonderful community? >> I always enjoy being at KubeCon. This is my fifth or sixth in-person and I've done a couple of virtual ones. >> Savannah: Awesome. >> Because of the energy, because you get to meet people in person whom previously you've only met in Slack or maybe in a monthly community Zoom calls. We always have people come to our project booth. We have a project booth here for Vitess. People come to the company booth. PlanetScale has a booth. People come to our talks, ask questions. We end up having design discussions, architecture discussions. We get feedback on what is important to the people who show up here. That always informs what we do with the project in future releases. >> Perfect answer. I already mentioned that you can get a hold and in touch with Deepthi through her wonderful Twitter handle. Is there any other website or anything you want to shout out here before I do our close? >> vitess.io. V-I-T-E-S-S dot I-O is the Vitess website and planetscale.com is the PlanetScale website. >> Deepthi Sigireddi, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. John, thanks for keeping me company as always. >> You're welcome. >> And thank all of you for tuning into theCUBE. We will be here in Detroit, Michigan all week live from KubeCon and we hope to see you there. (gentle upbeat music)

>> From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube in ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> There are four A players, in the IS slash pass hyperscale cloud services space, AWS, Azure, Alibaba, and alphabet, pretty clever, huh? In our view, these four have the resources, the momentum, and stamina to outperform all others virtually indefinitely. Now combined, we believe these companies will generate more than $115 billion in 2021 IaaS and PaaS revenue. That is a substantial chunk of market opportunity that is growing as a whole in the mid 30% range in 2021. Welcome to this week's Wiki bond cube insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we are initiating coverage of Alibaba for our IaaS and PaaS market segments. And we'll update you on the latest hyperscale cloud market data, and survey data from ETR. Big week in hyperscale cloud land, Amazon and alphabet reported earnings and AWS CEO Andy Jassy was promoted to lead Amazon overall. I interviewed John Furrier on the cube this week. John has a close relationship with Jassy and a unique perspective on these developments. And we simulcast the interview on clubhouse, and then hosted a two hour clubhouse room that brought together all kinds of great perspectives on the topic. And then, we took the conversation to Twitter. Now in that discussion, we were just riffing on our updated cloud estimates and our numbers. And here's this tweet that inspired the addition of Alibaba. Now this gentleman is a tech journalist out of New Delhi and he pointed out that we were kind of overlooking Alibaba and I responded that no, we do not just discounting them but we just need to do more homework in the company's cloud business. He also said we're ignoring IBM, but really they're not in this conversation as a hyperscale IaaS competitor to the big four in our view. And we'll just leave it at that for now on IBM, but, back to Alibaba and the big four, we actually did some homework. So thank you for that suggestion. And this chart shows our updated IaaS figures and includes the full year 2020 which was pretty close to our Q4 projections. You know, the big change is we've added Alibaba in the mix. Now these four companies last year, accounted for $86 billion in revenue, and they grew it 41% rate combined relative to 2019. Now, notably as your revenue for the first time is more than half of that of AWS's revenue which of course hit over $45 billion. AWS's revenue, over top 45 billion last year, which is just astounding. Alibaba you'll note, is larger than Google cloud. The Google cloud platform, I should say GCP, at just over eight billion for Alibaba. Now, the reason Baba is such a formidable competitor, is because the vast majority of its revenue comes from China inside that country. And the company do have plans to continue their international expansion, so we see Alibaba as a real force here. Their cloud business showed positive EBITDA for the first time in the history of the company last quarter. So that has people excited. Now, Google, as we've often reported, is far behind AWS and Azure, despite its higher growth rates Google's overall cloud business lost 5.6 billion in 2020 which has some people concerned. We on the other hand are thrilled, because as we've reported in our view, Google needs to get its head out of its ads cloud is it's future. And we're very excited about the company pouring investments into its cloud business. Look with $120 billion essentially in the balance sheet, we can think of a better use of its cash. Now, I want to stress that these figures are our best efforts to create an apples to apples comparison across all four clouds. Many people have asked about, how much of these figures represent, for example, Microsoft office 365 or Google G suite, which by the way now is called workspaces. And the answer is our intention is $0. These are our estimates of worldwide IaaS in PaaS revenue. You know, some of said, we're too low. Some of said, we're too high. Hey, if you have better numbers, Please share them, happy to have a look. Now you maybe asking, what are the drivers of these figures and the growth that we're showing here? Well, all four of these companies, of course, they're benefiting from an accelerated shift to digital as a result to COVID, but each one has other tailwinds. You know, for example, AWS, it's Capitalizing on its a large headstart. It's created tremendous brand value. And as well, despite the fact that, while we estimate that more than 75% of AWS revenue comes from compute and storage, AWS is feature and functional differentiation combined with this large ecosystem is a very much a driving force of it's growth. In the case of Azure, in addition to its captive software application estate, the company on its earnings calls cited strong growth in its consumption based business across all of its industries and customer segments. As we've said, many times, Microsoft makes it really easy for customers to tap into Azure and a true consumption pricing model, with no minimums and cancel any time. Those kinds of terms make it extremely attractive to experiment and get hooked. We certainly saw this with AWS over the years. Now for Google it's growth is being powered by its outstanding technology, and in particular its prowess in AI and analytics. As well we suspect that much of the losses in Google cloud are coming from large go to market investments for Google cloud platform, and they're paying growth dividends. Now, as Tim Crawford said on Twitter, 6 billion, you know that's not too shabby. Also Google cited wins at Wayfair in Etsy, that Google is putting forth in our view to signal that many retailers they might be are you reluctant to do business with Amazon, was of course a big retailer competitor. These are two high profile names, we'd like to see more in future quarters and likely will. Now let's give you another view of this data and paint a picture of, how the pie is being carved out in the market. Actually we'll use bars because my, millennials sounding boards they hate pie charts. And I like to pay attention, to these emerging voices. At any rate amongst these four, AWS has more than half of the market. AWS and Azure are well ahead of the rest. And we think we'll continue to hold serve for quite some time. Now while we're impressed with Alibaba, they're currently constrained to doing business mostly in China. And we think it'll take many years for Baba and GCP to close that gap on the two leaders if they'll ever even get there. Now let's take a look at, what the customers are saying within the ETR survey data. The chart that we're showing here, this is X, Y chart that we show all the time. It's got net score or spending moments on the vertical axis, and market share or the pervasiveness in the datasets in the survey on the horizontal axis. Now on the upper right, you can see the net scores and the number of mentions for each company and the detailed behind this data. And what we've done here is cut the January survey data of 1,262 respondents, you can see that in filtered in there on the left, and we've filtered the data by cloud meaning the respondents are answering about the companies, cloud computing offerings only. So we're filtering out anything of the non-cloud spend. That's a nice little capability of the ETR platform. Azure is really quite amazing to us. It's got a net score of 72.6%, and that's across 572 responses out of the 1262. AWS is the next most pervasive in the data set with 492 shared accounts and a net score of 57.1%. Now, you may be wondering, well, why is Azure bigger in the dataset than AWS? And when we just told you that the opposite is the case in the market in the previous slide. And the answer is, like this is a survey and it's a lot of Microsoft out there, they're everywhere. And I have no doubt that the respondants notion of cloud doesn't directly map into IaaS and PaaS views of the world, but the trends are clear and consistent. Amazon and Azure, they dominate in this market space. Now for context, we've included functions in the form of AWS Lambda as your functions and Google cloud functions. Because, as you can see, there's a lot of spending momentum in these capabilities in these services. You'll also note, that we've added Alibaba to this chart, and it's got a respectable 63.6% net Score, but there are only 11 shared responses in the data. So they'll go into the bank on these numbers, but look, 11 data points, we'll take it. It's better than zero data points. We've also added VMware cloud on AWS in this chart, and you can see that, that capability that service, that has the momentum and you can see those ones that we've highlighted above the 40% red dotted line, that's where the real action in the market is. So all of those offerings have very strong or strong spending velocity in the ETR data set. Now, for context, we've put Oracle and IBM in the chart. And you can see, they both have, you know they've got a decent presence in the data set. They have 132 mentions and 81 responses respectively. So Oracle, they've got a positive net score of 16.7%, and IBM is in a negative 6.2%. Now, remember this is for their cloud offerings, as the respondents in the data set see them. So what does this mean? It says that among the 132 survey respondents answering that they use Oracle cloud, 16.7% more customers are spending more on Oracle's cloud than are spending less. In the case of IBM, it says more customers are spending less than spending more. Both companies are in the red zone, and show far less momentum than the leaders. Look, I've said many times that the good news is, that Oracle and IBM at least have clouds. But they're not direct competitors of the big four in our view, there just not. They have a large software business, and they can migrate their customers, to their respective clouds and market hybrid cloud services. Their definition of cloud is most certainly different than that of AWS, which is fine, but both companies use what I call a kitchen sink method of reporting their cloud business. Oracle includes, cloud and license support, often with revenue recognition at the time of contract, With a term that's renewable and, it also includes on-prem fees, for things like database and middleware, and if, you want to call that cloud, fine. IBM is just as bad, maybe they're worse and includes so much legacy stuff and its cloud number to hide the ball. It's just not even worth trying to unpack for this episode, I have previously and frankly, it's just not a good use of time. Now, as I've said before, both companies they're in the game that can make good money provisioning infrastructure to support their respective software businesses. I just don't consider them hyperscale class clouds which are defined by the big four, and really only those four. And I'm sure I'll get hate mail about that statement, and I'm happy to defend that position, so please reach out. Okay, but one other important thing that we want to discuss is something that came up this week in our Twitter conversation. Here's a tweet from Matt Baker who had strategic planning for Dell. He was responding to someone who commented on our cloud data, basically saying that, with all that cloud revenue who took the hit, which pockets did it come out of, and Matt was saying, look, it's coming out of customer pockets, but can we please end this zero sum game narrative. In other words, it's not a dollar for cloud that doesn't translate into a lost dollar from on-prem for the legacy companies. So let's take a look at that. For first I would agree, with Matt Baker, it's not a one for one swap of spend but there's definitely been an impact. And here's some data from ETR that can, maybe give us some insight here. What this chart shows is a cut of 915 hyperscale cloud accounts. So within those big four, and within those accounts we show the spending velocity or net score cut within further sectors representative of these on-prem players. So servers, storage and networking, so we cut the data on those three segments. And we're looking here at, VMware, Cisco, Dell, HPE, and IBM, for 2020 and into 2021. It's kind of an interesting picture, it shows the net scores for the January of 20 April, July and October 20 surveys and the January 21 surveys. Now all the on-prem players, they were of course impacted by COVID, IBM seems to be that counter trend line. Not that they weren't impacted, but they have this notable mainframe cycle thing going on. And you know, they're in a down cycle now. So it's kind of opposite of the other guys in terms of the survey momentum. And you can see pretty much, all the others are showing upticks headed into 2021, Cisco, you know kind of flattish, but stable and held up a bit. So to Matt Baker's point, despite the 35% or so growth expected for the big four and 2021 the on-prem leaders are showing some signs of positive spending momentum. So let's dig into this a little bit further, 'cause we're not saying cloud hasn't hurt on prem spending. You know, of course it has. Here's that same picture, over a 10 year view. So you're seeing this long, slow, decline occur, and it's no surprise. If you think about the prevailing model for servers, storage, and networking, on prem in particular. Servers have been perpetually under utilized, even with virtualization. You know, with the exception of like backup jobs, there aren't many workloads that can max out server utilization. So we kept buying more servers to give us performance headroom and ran at 20, 30% utilization, you know in a good day. Yes I know some folks can get up over 50%, but generally speaking servers are well under utilized in storage my gosh, it's kind of the same story, maybe even worse. Because for years it was powered by a mechanical system. So more spindles are required to gain performance, lots of copying going on, lots of, you know, pre-flash waste. And in networking it was a story of got to buy more ports. You've got to buy more ports. In the case of these segments, customers will just defense essentially, forced in this endless cycle of planning, procuring, you know, first planning. They got to get the secure the CapEx, and then they procure, and then they over-provision, and then they manage, you know, ongoing. So then along comes AWS, and says, try this on for size and you can see from that chart, the impact of cloud on those bellwether on-prem infrastructure players. Now, just to give you a little bit more insight on this topic, here's a picture of the wheel charts from the ETR data set. For AWS Microsoft, Google, and we brought in VMware to compare them. A wheel chart shows the percent of customers saying they'll either add a platform new that's the lime green. Increased spending by more than 5%, that's the forest green spend flat relative to last year. That's the gray spend less by more than 5% down, that's the pinkish or leave the platform, that's the Bright red. You subtract the red from the green and you get a percentage that represents net score, AWS with a net score of 60% is off the charts good. Microsoft remember, this includes the entire Microsoft business portfolio, not just Azure, so it's still really strong. Google, frankly, we'd like to see higher net scores and VMware's, you know, so there's a gold standard for on-prem. So we include them, so you can see for reference the strong, but notice they got a much, much bigger flat spending, which is what you would expect from some of these more mature players. Now let's compare these scores to the other, on-prem Kings. So this is not surprising to see, but the greens, they go down, the flats that gray area goes up compared to the cloud guys and the red which is virtually non-existent within AWS, goes into the high teens with the exception of Cisco which despite its exposure to virtually all industries including those hard hit by COVID shows pretty low read scores. So that's, that's good. And I got to share one other, look at this wheel chart for pure storage. We're not really not sure what's happening here, but this is impressive. We're seeing a huge rebound, and you can see we've superimposed as candlestick over comparing previous quarters surveys and, look at the huge up check in the January survey for pure that blue line. That's highlighted in that red dot at ellipse, jumps to a 63% net score from below 20% last quarter. You know, we'll see, I've never seen that kind of uptick before for an established company. And, you know, maybe it's pent up demand or some other anomaly in the data. We'll find out when pure reports in 2021, because remember these are forward looking surveys. But the point is, you still see action going on in hybrid and on-prem, and despite the freight train that is cloud, coming at the legacy players. You know, not that pure is legacy, but it's, you know, it's no longer a lanky teenager. And I think the bottom line, coming back to Matt Baker's point, is there are opportunities that the on-prem players can pursue in hybrid and multi-cloud, and we've talked about this a lot where you're building abstraction layer, on top of the hyperscale clouds and letting them build out their data center presence worldwide, spend on capex, they're going to outspend everybody. And these guys, these on-prem, and hybrid and multi-cloud folks they're going to have to add value on top of that. Now if they move fast, you no doubt there'll be acquiring startups to make that happen. They're going to have to put forth the value proposition and execute on that, in a way that adds clear value above and beyond what the hyperscalers are going to do. Now, the challenge, is picking those right spots, moving fast enough and balancing wall street promises with innovation. There's that same old dilemma. Let's face It. Amazon for years could lose tons of money and not get killed in the street. Google, they got so much cash, they can't spend it fast enough and Microsoft after years of going sideways is finally figured out and the some. Alibaba they're new to our analysis, but it's looking like you know, it's the Amazon of China, Plus ANT despite its regulatory challenges with the Chinese government. So all four of these players, are in the driver's seat in our view. And they're leading in not only cloud, but AI. And of course the data keeps flowing into their cloud. So they're really are in a strong position. Bottom line is we're still early into the cloud platform era and it's morphing. It's from a collection of remote cloud services, into this ubiquitous, sensing, thinking, anticipatory system, that's increasingly automated and working towards full automation. It's intelligent and it's hyper decentralizing toward the edge. One thing's for sure, the next 10 years, they're not going to be the same as the past 10. Okay, that's it for now. Remember I publish each week on Wikibond.com and siliconANGLE.com, these episodes they're all available as podcasts just search for breaking analysis podcast. You can always connect on Twitter. I'm @dvellante or email me at david.Vellante@siliconANGLE.com. I love the comments on LinkedIn and of course in clubhouse the new social app. So please follow me, so that you can get notified when we start a room and riff on these topics. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action. This is Dave Vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

Live from San Diego, California it's theCUBE! covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Red Hat a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host for the week, John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, Tom Phelan, who's an HPE Fellow and was the BlueData CTO >> That's correct. >> And is now part of Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. Tom, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so we talked with a couple of your colleagues earlier this morning. >> Right. >> About the HPE container platform. We're going to dig in a little bit deeper later. >> So, set the table for us as to really the problem statement that HP is going to solve here. >> Sure, so Blue Data which is what technologies we're talking about, we addressed the issues of how to run applications well in containers in the enterprise. Okay, what this involves is how do you handle security how do you handle Day-2 operations of upgrade of the software how do you bring CI and CD actions to all your applications. This is what the HPE container platform is all about. So, the announcement this morning, which went out was HPE is announcing the general availability of the HPE container platform, an enterprise solution that will run not only CloudNative applications, are typically called microservices applications, but also Legacy applications on Kubernetes and it's supported in a hybrid environment. So not only the main public cloud providers, but also on premise. And a little bit of divergence for HPE, HPE is selling this product, licensing this product to work on heterogeneous hardware. So not only HPE hardware, but other competitors' hardware as well. >> It's good, one of the things I've been hearing really over the last year is when we talked about Kubernetes, it resonated, for the most part, with me. I'm an infrastructure guy by background. When I talk in the cloud environment, it's really talking more about the applications. >> Exactly. >> And that really, we know why does infrastructure exist? Infrastructure is just to run my applications, it's about my data, it's about my business processes >> Right. >> And it seems like that is a y'know really where you're attacking with this solution. >> Sure, this solution is a necessary portion of the automated infrastructure for providing solutions as a service. So, um, historically, BlueData has been specializing in artificial intelligence, machine learning, deep learning, big data, that's where our strong suit came from. So we, uh, developed a platform that would containerize those applications like TensorFlow, um, Hadoop, Spark, and the like, make it easy for data scientists to stand up some clusters, and then do the horizontal scalability, separate, compute, and storage so that you can scale your compute independent of your storage capacity. What we're now doing is part of the HPE container platform is taking that same knowledge, expanding it to other applications beyond AI, ML, and DL. >> So what are some of those Day-2 implications then uh what is something that folks run into that then now with an HPE container platform you think will eliminate those problems? >> Sure, it's a great question, so, even though, uh, we're talking about applications that are inherently scalable, so, AI and ML and DL, they are developed so they can be horizontal- horizontally scalable, they're not stateless in the true sense of the word. When we say a stateless application, that means that, uh, there is no state in the container itself that matters. So if you destroy the container, reinstate it, there's no loss of continuity. That's a true stateless or CloudNative application. Uh, AI and ML and DL applications tend to have configuration information and state information that's stored in what's known as the Root Storage of the compute node, okay, what's in slash, so you might see, um, per node configuration information in a configuration file in the Etsy directory. Okay, today, if you just take standard off the shelf Kubernetes, if you deploy, um, Hadoop for example, or TensorFlow, and you configure that, you lose that state when the container goes down. With the HPE container platform, we are, we have been moving forward with a, or driving, a open source project known as KubeDirector. A portion of KubeDirector, of the functionality is to preserve that, uh, Root Storage so that if a container goes down, we are allowed- we are enabled to bring a Nether Instance of that container and have it have the same Root Storage. So it'll look like a just a reboot to the node rather than a reinstall of that node. So that's a huge value when you're talking about these, um, machine learning and deep learning applications that have the state in root. >> All right, so, Tom, how does KubeDirector fit compared to compare contrast it, does it kind of sit aside something like Rook, which was talked about in the keynote, talking about being able to really have that, uh, that kind of universal backplate across all of my clusters >> Right, you're going to have to be >> Is that specific for AI and ML or is this >> I, well, that's a great question, so KubeDirector itself is a Kubernetes operator, okay, uh, and we have implemented that, the open-source communities joining in, so, but what it allows us, KubeDirector is, um, application agnostic, so, you could author a YAML file with some pertinent information about the application that you want to deploy on Kubernetes. You give that YAML file to the KubeDirector operator, it will then deploy the application on your Kubernetes cluster and then manage the Day-2 activities, so this is beyond Helm, or beyond KubeFlow, which are deployment engines. So this also has, well, what happens if I lose my container? How do I bring the services back up, and those services are dependent upon the type of application that's there. That's what KubeDirector does. So, KubeDirector allows a new application to be deployed and managed on Kubernetes without having to write a operator in Go Code. Makes it much easier to bring a new application to the platform. >> Gotcha, so Tom, kind of a two-part question, first part, so, uh, you were one of the co-founders of BlueData >> And now with HPE, there's, sometimes I think with technology, some of them are kind of invented in a lab, or in a graduate student's head, others come out of real world experience. And, uh, you're smiling 'cause I think BlueData was really built around, uh, y'know, at least your experience was building these BlueData apps. >> This is a hundred percent real world experience. So we were one of the real early pioneers of bringing, um, these applications into containers y'know, truth be told, when BlueData first started, we were using VMs. We were using OpenStack, and VM more. And we realized that we didn't need to pay that overhead it was possible to go ahead and get the same thing out of a container. So we did that, and we suffered all the slings and arrows of how to make the, um, security of the container, uh, to meet enterprise class standards. How do we automatically integrate with active directory and LDAP, and Kerberos, with a single sign on all those things that enterprises require for their infrastructure, we learned that the hard way through working with, y'know, international banking organizations, financial institutions, investment houses, medical companies, so our, our, all our customers were those high-demand enterprises. Now that we're apart of HP, we're taking all that knowledge that we acquired, bringing it to Kubernetes, exposing it through KubeDirector, where we can, and I agree there will be follow on open-source projects, releasing more of that technology to the open-source community. >> Mhm that was, that was actually part-two of my question is okay, what about, with now with HPE, the apps that are not AI, ML and you nailed it, right, >> Yeah. >> All those enterprise requirements. >> Same problems exist, right, there is secure data, you have secure data in a public cloud, you have it on premise, how do you handle data gravity issues so that you store, you run your compute close to your data where it's necessary you don't want to pay for moving data across the web like that. >> All right, so Tom, platforms are used for lots of different things, >> Yes. >> Bring us inside, what do you feel from your early customers, some of the key use cases that should be highlighted? >> Our key use cases were those customers who were very interested, they had internal developers. So they had a lot of expertise in house, maybe they had medical data scientists, or financial advisors. They wanted to build up sandboxes, so we helped them stand up, cookie-cutter sandboxes within a few moments, they could go ahead and play around with them, if they screwed them up, so what? Right, we tear them down and redo it within moments, they didn't need a lot of DevOps, heavy weight-lifting to reinstall bare-metal servers with these complex stacks of applications. The data scientist that I want to use this software which just came out of the open-source community last week, deployed in a container and I want to mess it up, I want to tighten, y'know, really push the edge on this and so we did that. We developed this sandboxing platform. Then they said, okay, now that you've tested this, I have it in queue A, I've done my CI/CD, I've done my testing, now I want to promote it into production. So we did that, we allowed the customer to deploy and define different quality of service depending on what tier their application was running in. If it was in testing dev, it got the lowest tier. If it was in CI/CD, it got a higher level of resource priority. Once it got promoted to production, it got guaranteed resource priority, the highest solution, so that you could always make sure that the customer who is using the production cluster got the highest level of access to the resources. So we built that out as a solution, KubeDirector now allows us to deploy that same sort of thing with the Kubernetes container orchestrator. >> Tom, you mentioned blue metal, uh, bare-metal, we've talked about VMs, we've been hearing a lot of multicloud stories here, already today, the first day of KubeCon, it seems like that's a reality out in the world, >> Can you talk about where are people putting applications and why? >> Well, clearly, uh, the best practices today are to deploy virtual machines and then put containers in virtual machines, and they do that for two very legitimate reasons. One is concern about the security, uh, plane for containers. So if you had a rogue actor, they could break out of the container, and if they're confined within the virtual machine, you can limit the impact of the damage. One very good, uh, reason for virtual machines, also there's a, uh, feeling that it's necessary to maintain, um, the container's state running in a virtual machine, and then be allowed to upgrade the the Prom Code, or the host software itself. So you want to be able to vMotion a virtual machine from one physical host to another, and then maintain the state of the containers. What KubeDirector brings and what BlueData and HP are stating is we believe we can provide both of those functionalities on containers on bare-metal. Okay, and we've spoken a bit about today already about how KubeDirector allows the Root File System to be preserved. That is a huge component of of why vMotion is used to move the container from one host to another. We believe that we can do that with a reboot. Also, um, HPE container platform runs all virtual machines as, um, reduced priority. So you're not, we're not giving root priority or privileged priority to those containers. So we minimize the attack plane of the software running in the container by running it as an unprivileged user and then tight control of the container capabilities that are configured for a given container. We believe it's just enough priority or just enough functionality which is granted to that container to run the application and nothing more. So we believe that we are limiting the attack plane of that through the, uh and that's why we believe we can validly state we can run these containers on bare-metal without, without the enterprise having to compromise in areas of security or persistence of the data. >> All right, so Tom, the announcement this week, uh is HP container platform available today? >> It will be a- we are announcing it. It's a limited availability to select customers It'll be generally available in Queue 1 of 2020. >> All right, and y'know, give us, y'know, we come back to KubeCon, which will actually be in Boston >> Yes. >> Next year in November >> When we're sitting down with you and you say hugely successful >> Right. >> Give us some of those KPIs as to y'know >> Sure. >> What are your teams looking at? >> So, we're going to look at how many new customers these are not the historic BlueData customers, how many new customers have we convinced that they can run their production work loads on Kubernetes And we're talking about I don't care how many POCs we do or how many testing dev things I want to know about production workloads that are the bread and butter for these enterprises that HP is helping run in the industry. And that will be not only, as we've talked about, CloudNative applications, but also the Legacy, J2EE applications that they're running today on Kubernetes. >> Yeah, I, uh, I don't know if you caught the keynote this morning, but Dan Kohn, y'know, runs the CNCF, uh, was talking about, y'know, a lot of the enterprises have been quitting them with second graders. Y'know, we need to get over the fact that y'know things are going to break and we're worried about making changes y'know the software world that y'know we've been talking about for a number of years, absolutely things will break, but software needs to be a resilient and distributed system, so, y'know, what advice do you give the enterprise out there to be able to dive in and participate? >> It's a great question, we get it all the time. The first thing is identify your most critical use case. Okay, that we can help you with and, and don't try to boil the ocean. Let's get the container platform in there, we will show you how you have success, with that one application and then once that's you'll build up confidence in the platform and then we can run the rest of your applications and production. >> Right, well Tom Phelan, thanks so much for the updates >> Thank you, Stu. >> Congratulations on the launch >> Thank you. >> with the HP container platform and we look forward to seeing the results in 2020. >> Well I hope you invite me back 'cause this was really fun and I'm glad to speak with you today. Thank you. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, still watch more to go here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (energetic music)

(upbeat techno music) >> From Union Square in downtown San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering PagerDuty Summit '18. Now, here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in downtown San Francisco, actually the Westin St. Francis on Union Square, historical property, this beautiful ballroom, lots of brocade and fancy stuff from another era but we're talking about this era and the era of information. We're here at PagerDuty Summit and we're really excited to have one of the keynote speakers, John Allspaw join us. He is the co-founder of Adaptive Capacity Labs. John, great job on the keynote. >> Thanks, thanks a lot, I'm glad that it landed. >> You know it's funny, we go to literally hundreds of tech conferences a year and so often, the tech is talked about but as you brought up, where is the human factors? Where are the people? Where in all these lovely diagrams, as you pointed out, with beautiful lines and everything is very straight and boxes are very clear, that's not really how the real world works at all. >> No, no, yeah, that's what I find really fascinating which is that, certainly get a lot of attention to incidents when they show up, outages and that sort of thing but we don't get a real shot at understanding how non incidents happen and they happen all the time, right? Outages are being prevented all day long. But it doesn't really get our attention. >> Right. >> And it doesn't get our attention because that seems normal and that's the sort of, this assumption that there's a like a quiet sort of background and that an incident is sort of like a punctuation of something bad and that otherwise sticks up, you know, like Mount Hood, right? >> Right, right. >> But the fact of the matter is there's so much going on. >> Right. >> And that's actually that stuff that's going on, is this activity that people are doing to prevent outages continually and that's what I find fascinating. >> So you really never get like your classic kind of experiment where you can isolate the variables, right? >> No. >> Because they're all completely co-mingled, all the time? >> Yeah, and that's what fascinating. What I like and we always say is that we study cognitive work, and the difference between sort of these types of human factors and cognitive work studies and the difference between that and say sort of classic psychology is classic psychology can be done in a lab. We study cognition in the wild. >> Right, right. >> As they say. The natural laboratory that is the world. >> Right, and the other thing I thought you brought up which was really interesting is really kind of what's the point, right? Is the point just to fix it? Is the point to try to identify this little link and fix it? Or is the point kind of a higher level objective which is to actually learn so that we're doing the things in the future that keep this thing from happening again? And you summarized it really, really well and you talked about the post mortem which you said, "Are you doing this report to be read or are you doing it to be filed?" Very different objectives, going to have a very different report at the end of the process. >> Right, right, right, yeah. I think that the sort of the danger is if we, as an industry, I think we just need to bring some attention to that and the good news is that it's hard work to look at incidents in a different way. It's a way that we're not used to. It's effectively qualitative research. It's difficult but it's not impossible, it can be learned, it can be taught and my hope is that sort of these sorts of bringing attention to the topics will get people to be curious and want to understand more. >> Right and really take it up a notch and I think, again, you have some really easy to implement lessons there, like what are the questions? Document the questions, >> Yeah. >> In the post mortem. >> Yeah. >> Document the concerns in the post mortem. Did those concerns happen? Did they not happen? Why didn't they happen? So really kind of take it up a level from the incident, really, as kind of a catalyst for a conversation and learning but that's really not what the foundational effort should be around, is fixing that little thing? >> Right, right. Well and that's the thing, is if the goal is to fix, and that is the goal, you're going to find something to fix. It may or may not be helpful. What you fix comes from exploring and there are things that shouldn't be fixed, right now. Everybody's making decisions, I mean, this is the entire premise of Agile which is that continual iterative re prioritization, recalibration of what's important so we'll be happy to put effort into that but yet, it seems disingenuous to phone it in. >> Right. >> When it comes to understanding incidents. >> Right, right. You got on to so many things, we could go forever and ever. One of things you talked about and it's often spoke about, is winners write the history books. It was really about the bias that you bring to a problem. What do you think is the most important and what filter and lens are you both looking at the problem, reporting the problem or diagnosing and then reporting the problem which may or may not be root cause, may or may not be the most important thing about that but those biases influences not only is that problem perceived but then documented, resolved and talked about after the fact. Really important. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely and there's something really paradoxical about that. One of the things that it brings to mind is that I don't think that yet we are in a world where we, when I say we, I mean the software industry, will bring attention to a report on near misses. The scenarios where, you know what? You thought you were in dev but you were in prod and you ran a command that if it had a couple of other parameters, it would have destroyed everything but it turns out that actually, it was this one, you know these couple of characters made it such that it was a near miss. It wasn't a big deal. Is that an incident, right? >> Right, right. >> On the one hand you could say, well there are no customer impact. >> Right. >> So therefore let me look up on my, oh, no, that's not an incident so therefore we shouldn't pay any attention to it. But think of any other sort of high tempo, high consequence domain? >> Right. >> They've learned, aviation is a good example. There are organizations in aviation that will, actually and they find them to be incredibly useful because they're low risk things to pay attention to. It didn't happen this time but we can bring attention to the possibility that it might go poorly the next time. >> Right, so what triggers the action to recognize that you had a near miss? And is that working it's way into best practices dev ops? >> Well, I mean, at my organization, at Etsy, I certainly, full disclosure, I made quite a good number of mistakes at Etsy. This isn't one of them. Getting into habit of what had happened there was people sending PSA e-mails, public service announcements and it was basically the format was, hey everybody, check this out, I was doing this and I went to go do blah, and I almost exploded everybody. So FYI if you're doing this, don't do this. Everything's cool and I'm going to put in these things to sort of help it out, but until we get that done, be really careful about this part, you know, whatever. Even just that, even small things like that, keep the topic of how precarious these scenarios can be in the minds of people who aren't experiencing incidents. >> Right, right. >> Tomorrow you might be that one, or tomorrow you might be, and so here's your colleague like taking the time to spend some effort, could be saving your bacon tomorrow. >> Right. >> You might be in the similar spot. >> Right. How's it codified and how is it communicated. So another concept you touched on, which has a broader implication, but you talked about specifically and really that's diversity of opinions leads to better decision making and you gave some examples of bringing in disparate members of various teams with different experiences, points of view. >> Yeah. >> To pull out things like the esoteric knowledge, to pull out the institutional knowledge. >> Yeah. >> But more importantly, to pull out a different point of view. So we hear about it a lot with diversity of teams, and sects, and culture, et cetera but even with the context of solving an engineering problem diversity and points of view does lead to better problem solving. >> I want to make sort of a crisp clarification. It is the variety of perspectives actually the variety of expertise and the variety of experience, not opinions or perspectives. Perspective you can probably, that's word you can probably go with. I wouldn't say diversity of opinion, that has a connotation that is not concrete enough. >> Okay. >> What we're talking about is cognitive work, how people assess this is something that requires my attention. It requires my attention in these ways based on my experience with this particular type of problem over this different variations of it. >> Right. >> Yeah, I mean the general sense is, but the phrase diversity of opinion generally has like a connotation of the individual attribute of a person. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the-- >> These are individual attributes that have been gleaned through experience-- >> It's not an attribute, it's experience. >> It's experience, right okay. >> Right, exactly. An attribute of me is that I'm 5'9", my experience is that I have seen Apache break in a myriad of different, surprising ways, right? (laughter) There's sort of the difference. >> Right, right the difference, okay. But then the other point you brought up even in that conversation was it's always messy, there's always trade-offs, is you know, you get management overhead as soon as you have more than one person working on a problem, right? Now you have communication overhead, you've got management overhead so now you're pulling resources from actually devoting it to the task at hand of trying to solve the problem versus having to devote resources to bring other people up to speed, communicate, et cetera. So it's not even a really easy trade off? >> Oh yeah. >> Or not trade off, I mean but there's consequences to the action. >> Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And again, I think coping with complexity requires an equal amount of complexity, right? You might not say that a baseball team that is very good at doing double plays, right? Which is a pretty hard thing to pull off even in professional baseball. Would you say that the coach represents overhead? I don't know if you would say it that way exactly but there's certainly limitations to the sports metaphor. I like very much a renewed emphasis on building, maintaining and sort of, resolving incidents with software as much more benefiting from collaborative work. >> Right, right. >> Meaning real sort of teamwork. >> Right. >> Not just sort of sparse collaboration. >> Right, right. Well John, it's a fascinating field, we could go on all day long. >> Yes we could. >> Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there but really, really enjoyed the conversation. >> Great. >> And also the keynote earlier today. >> Great thanks a lot. Thanks for talking. >> Alright, thank you. He's John, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at PagerDuty Summit at the Westin St. Francis, Union Square. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

(electronic music) >> Hello and welcome to the Cube conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios with two great guests, Tara Chklovski, who is the founder and CEO of Iridescent and Anar Simpson, global ambassador of Technovation. First, thanks for coming in today. I appreciate moving your schedules around to come in. Thanks for coming into our studio. >> You bet, yeah. >> So Sundar Pichai was at your event. That's the big story this past week has been the Google memo from a low level employee who wrote some things that got the whole world shaking around gender biases, role of women in tech, and as we do a lot of women in tech as you know at the Cube. Hundreds and hundreds of women in over the years, friends, and also smart people. This is a pretty big moment for you guys. You had an event at Google. Sundar canceled his all hands meeting to address this under fear of retaliation and safety but came to your event on the Google campus. Surprising to many, as written up on VCode and the Verge. Pretty notable. So tell us about what happened. >> So this was the 2017 Technovation world pitch competition and the award ceremony and Sundar came and he talked to a lot of the girls who were presenting their ideas to solve problems in their community and then he had a little bit of a one on one conversation to learn a little bit more about the kinds of problems, their interest in technology, entrepreneurship, and then he addressed the crowd of 900 plus supporters and really reemphasized that there's a place for women in technology, and more importantly, for him and Google, that there's a place for these girls at Google. >> Talk about your mission. >> Right, so Technovation's mission is to empower girls to become technology entrepreneurs and it's much more than just learning how to code. It's really about telling girls that if there's a problem in their community, technology can help them have a very powerful voice. We've been running for eight years and Anar is our global ambassador who has helped us grow to more than 100 countries, but Technovation's relationship with Google is eight years long. Google has supported Technovation, was the very first technology company to support Technovation way before any other company saw the potential and since then, since 2010, Google has provided funding, mentors, spaces, not just across the U.S. but globally. >> Is it beyond entrepreneurship and beyond coding? Talk about specifically what you guys are bringing to folks outside of Silicon Valley. >> Oh, sure, so my role as the global ambassador for Technovation is really getting to girls all over the world and saying to them, you need to be engaged in technology. And what we found, as Tara mentioned, we've been doing this now, I've been doing this now for five years, is that we're building a movement. We're bringing in girls, we're bringing in mentors, we're bringing in companies and governments together to make this a reality for girls in tech careers in their own countries. >> What's some examples during your life when you had those kind of change moments? >> I think Iridescent, we are now in our 12th year, and every couple of months, it's a change moment because it's a test of grit and just believing in yourself because I started it with just an idea and grew it to be an organization that's all over the world and it doesn't come with just full hearted focus and a lot of courage is what I've seen, I think. I've also seen that how much you are passionate about an idea really swings how the other person is thinking and so the idea only matters so much, I think, of course I mean the track record and everything has to be there, but I think a lot of it depends on your own passion for it and I think I've come to realize that passion is maybe proportional to the complexity and the impact of the problem you're trying to solve, so if you're only trying to solve a small problem, you lose interest in two years. And maybe that's why, I'm always curious, like why do so many start ups fail after two or three years? It's because maybe you came in not thinking that you're going to change the world, maybe you came in because you wanted to make quick money or exit or whatever and so I think for me, it's this is my life's work and we want to bring more underrepresented communities into innovation, and so it's not something that is going to be solved easily. >> Let's get back to the Sundar event that you guys were at because I think it's a good conversation to have because one of the things that came out of the brouhaha that became that memo really was a conversation publicly. Now, it's been polarized here. There's just kind of a hate kind of mindset with it most of the time, plenty of stuff on the internet to go read through but there was actually some good conversations in the industry. What was the conversation like during the event because this was in full conversation mode while you guys were having your 2017 world pitch competition, which he presided over and had a speech to the entrepreneurs. What was it like? What were some of the conversations that were taking place? >> I think the most powerful piece of the whole evening was really the girls walking in and seeing the incredible diversity that we have in this world, right? So we had girls from and mentors and supporters from over 30 countries and just them coming and waving the flags and different faces and different cultures all trying to make the world a better place, I mean it's rare that you see that using technology and I think it's very fitting that Silicon Valley is the center of this, but I think there was not one dry eye in the group because you realize, the conversation is so much bigger than one company, one country. It is something that affects us as all human beings and you're believing in human potential so I think seeing these young girls, some of them 10 years old, there was this, I think, maybe the crowd's favorite was these 10 year old girls from Cambodia who want to improve the lives of these people working in cottage industries, right, and they created an app like say Etsy or something, but focused on Cambodian products and the courage of these little girls, I think everybody walks away feeling, okay there's hope. Even in the midst of all of this discussion. >> Yeah it creates a lightning rod in some ways and hopefully it will move on to the substantive conversations. How do you guys feel about what happened and as you take this mission forward? You guys are doing some amazing work, we'll do a whole nother segment, I think, that's on that in a minute, but given the landscape now, how do you view this and how are you talking with friends and colleagues and family members around it because I've certainly had conversations with my friends, certainly on the east coast, like no, no, that's not the way Silicon Valley is. Google actually is a very cool company, it's not exactly like what you think it is. They're very open. They support a lot of great initiatives and they're candid. And then I go on and explain, it's like a university, serene little area, have this little ecosystem, that they've kind of built a university culture, if you will. But it is open and there's things that happen that get misrepresented and that was my take. That's for the folks that filmed at Silicon Valley. But what's your take? What do you think about what's happening? >> So this is really, really good that you brought up the university campus environment. So I have two girls. They're both millennials and they're both in the tech world and we have this discussion and here is the perfect answer, right. So one of my daughters, Kat, she said that when she read that, she thought it was basically a gathering of his thoughts and it was a gathering of his thoughts because he was probably asked to adhere to I&D staff that's going on in every company right now, right, and so it was a little bit of a, wait a second, you know. He wants to sort of respond to his being asked to go to I&D staff and then Katia said, but you know mom, it was just a gathering of his thoughts and this is an essay, and it was a poorly written one, and if I was grading it, I would give him a C minus. Then my older daughter said-- >> Host: I would have given him an F on that one. She's generous. >> Because he did, he tried to make it very professional and very academic and she said but it was a first draft, he has not, he didn't proceed to toughen it up, solidify it, find more evidence, have it critiqued. It was just a gathering of his thoughts and he hasn't gone through the presses and both these girls graduated from Berkeley and so I think they would know what a C paper looks like versus an A paper. And then my older daughter said, and the other thing is, you know, it's not like I&D efforts are actually bad but what we're trying to do is we're trying to condense the time in which we're trying to get women at equal pairing in the tech world. Now, you know women have never been at equal pairing in many professions. They were not enough doctors, lawyers, accountants, you name it, right? Main Street, Wall Street has never had equality. And now we're looking at technology and the reason everything just flairs up in technology is because we live in today's world where news and information is available all the time. So there's two things going on. Information is readily available. People can come into the conversation very quickly and whenever anything happens in Silicon Valley, the effect is massive because all eyes are on Silicon Valley all the time. So it's a bit of a distorted view but we have gone through this. It took a long time for women to become astronauts. It took a long time for women to become neurosurgeons. It took a long time for women to become lawyers and dentists. It will take a little bit of time for women to become top technologists, but we're hoping that it'll shorten and things happen quickly in the valley and we're trying to get that quicker and so we're seeing a little bit of friction. This is responses from millennials so for me, it was like, yes. >> Host: Interesting perspective. >> Yes, great perspective, and when Sundar said these things at the world pitch, I was sitting in the second row and every time he said something I would clap real loud and Todd said, why are you being so good and I said I need to hear that, I need to hear him say that because-- >> Host: What did he say that moved you? >> Oh he just said, you know you have a place in technology and I said yes, we needed to hear you say that right away, all the time and especially to these girls, these eight to 18 year old girls, and all of the ones that come from 100 countries that weren't at Google but were listening to the live pitch. >> We seem to be going back to a crowd that wants to see respect for the individual and citizenship. These were company values at Hewlett Packard, when I was there, that I always remembered was unique. They go hey, you can have differences, but if you have respect for the individual and you have a citizenship mindset. That seemed to have been lost in tech. With this whole movement you see and win at all costs, being an asshole is what you got to do to be a CEO or flip it fast or bros program, so it became a very selfish environment. It seems to be shifting now, with this conversation. Your thoughts? >> So I have to say, doing a start up is not easy. Getting successful in this world is not easy. Shaking the status quo is not easy, so I have to say that the same people, and we're not going to name names, but the same people who are very arrogant and have little respect for the laws and rules, they have given us products that are changing peoples' lives. There is no question about it. Without their bravado, without their I don't care, I'm just going to go over you if you don't comply with me, a lot of ride sharing wouldn't even have happened, and to me, when you provide employment, when you provide alternative services, when you provide something that takes away the way things were, I see that as a plus. I think what we're seeing is that's needed to a certain extent and then you realize, okay now we have to get back to growing it and working it and if you keep going in that mode, you probably won't succeed. >> So being tough and determined and having grit is what you need to break through those walls as a start up. You don't need to be necessarily a jerk, but your point is if you're creating value. >> If you're creating value, and that sometimes you actually have to be a jerk because there are very few brave, non-jerk people who have gone against a big unions and big monopolies. Right, you and I, I would not be able to go against the taxi commission. You need somebody who is a complete a-hole to do that. And he did that and it made a difference. He doesn't have to continue to do that and that's the point. >> There's a meme going around on the internet, if you want to make friends, sell ice cream. >> Exactly! >> So you cannot always win friends when you're pioneering things. >> And you know, there is a balance and maybe we've fostered the fact that you need to be that attitude for everything and that's not true so the pendulum shifted a bit too much but I think that we shouldn't scorn them because really they have made a difference, let's just let everybody get back to-- >> Its a tough world out there to survive and you have to have that kind of sharp elbows to make things happen and it's the value you're providing is how you do it. >> Exactly. >> Well it's no secret to the folks that know me and watch The Cube and know the Silicon Valley that I'm a huge proponent for computer science and, you know, as someone who kind of fell into that in the '80s, it's now become very interesting in that the surface area for computer science has increased a lot and its not just coding and heads down and squashing bugs and writing code. There's been a whole nother evolution of Soft Scales, Agile, Cloud, you've seen a full transformation with the potential unlimited compute available, with mobile now 10 years plus into the iPhone you see new infrastructure developing so it creates the notion that, okay, you can bring the science of computers to a whole nother level. That must be attractive as you guys have that capability to bring that to bear in the programs. Can you guys comment on how you guys see just the role of computer science playing out and this is not a gender thing, this is more of, as I have a young daughter I try to say, it's not just writing code, you could certainly whip out a mobile app, but it's really bringing design to it or bringing a personal passion that you might have, so what are some of the patterns you're seeing in the surface area of what's now known as computer science? >> I think it's super important because as technology has progressed, we've been able to provide this program. If we were still programming in front of screens and doing the what you see is what you get kind of thing without, we would not be there. I think the big thing that's happened in the last 10 years is the mobile phone. I mean, if you find a girl anywhere today in the world, chances are she'll have a mobile phone on her and she's going to be loathe for you to take that one thing from her. You could take other things from her, but try taking that phone away from her. She will not let you. And so the fact that she's so attached to that mobile phone means that you can then tell her, hey, you don't have to be just a consumer of that thing, you can be a producer of that thing. Anything that you see on there, you can actually design. This is power. This is your thing to good and great and better. And if we can shift that in their minds that this is their link to the world that's wide open, we're seeing that. >> Well the world is consumed by it. I mean, a lot of women in the world will be consumers of product, certainly with AI, the conversation over the weekend I was having with folks as the role of women is super important not just in AI, but as software becomes cognitive, you have to align with half the audience that's out there. Must be hard for a guy to program something that's going to be more oriented towards women, but it brings up the question of application and whether it's self driving cars or utility from work to play and everything in between, software and the role of software is going to be critical and that seems to be pretty clear. Question is how do you inspire young girls. That's the question that a lot of fellow males that I talk to who are fathers of daughters and who are promoting women in tech and see that vision. What are some of the inspiration areas? How do you really shake the interest and how do you have someone really kind of dig in and enjoy it and taste it and feel it? >> So there is some research to back what the formula is that works to drive change in behavior and so there is, one of the biggest names in cognitive psychology is Albert Bandura. He's a professor at Stanford. But basically it's the same principles that drive, say, the addiction from alcohol or weight loss or any kind of new behavior change. So the first is you need to have exposure to someone whom you respect showing that this is something of meaning, and so the key words are someone you respect, right? And so media can play a very big role here, for scale, right, otherwise it's only maybe a teacher or a parent and if they're not exposed to technology they can't really affect your... And so media can play a huge role there. Second is the experience itself, like how do you make it easy to get started. And then it's like learning from video games, so you make it very, very easy, like the first step is just come over here, it'll be fun, there's pizza, come, right, like your friends are coming, but then the feedback has to be very fast, so the first step, and that's where your good curriculum matters. So that's where also working on a mobile phone is very appealing even though maybe apps is not-- >> Host: It's relatable. >> It's relatable but the feedback is instantaneous and so the programming language that the girls use is block based so even though you don't have any prior programming background, you can still build a working app, so that's critical. Then human beings get tired very easily and so the feedback needs to keep changing. It has to be unpredictable. The third piece is that of expectations. Sou have to have very high expectations and so that's why this current discussion around cognitive differences in gender, I feel is missing the point, because it's not what you're born with, what are you capable of? And so if we looked at our genetics, we would never go to space, we would never go to the deepest parts of the ocean, because we're not meant for that. But we had really high visions and expectations and so human beings rose to that. And then the last piece is less relevant in developing countries but it's still important, so it's sort of the human energy. We're not a brain disassociated from the body, we're connected, right? And so if you're hungry and tired and sleepy, not the right time to sort of make a dramatic change in you interests, so this is relevant like for us, we tried to figure out which countries are we going to work in, so post-conflict, war-torn areas are not the best areas to start a new program in. You need the right-- >> So you're saying the biological argument of, of course they're different, men and women, but it's the capability, that's where people are missing the boat. >> And the support system. So have high expectations, provide them with the right support, but the most important thing is your own beliefs in that. >> Let's get your thoughts on that 'cause I think you guys have a great program with Technovation, you mentioned mentors. Key part of the formula most likely. What we here, in the conversation I've had with women here has been, there's a real call to arms at the executive level now, folks my age in the 50s who made it, who were there, succeeding, they really want to give back and they really have recognized the value of having that peer mentorship and then inspiring the young generation, whether it's part of the things that we cover like Grace Hopper or Technovations, things that you do, or even just mentoring in their own communities. What does that mentorship look like that you guys see that you'd like to see double down on or areas you'd like to see tweaked or perceptions that need to change? What's your thoughts on mentorship and the role of inspiring young girls? >> Mentorship from men? >> Host: Men and women, I mean... >> From both? >> Well I see the mentorship with women, as that's the first step. I have a whole nother conversation, in my opinion, about the men needing training, not just like go to class and learn how to talk but how to empathize. >> Well my big thing has been that when you wanted to encourage women up the ladder in your companies or you wanted to encourage women to actually get in to technical roles, that intent should not be placed in the CSR department of your organization 'cause that speaks volumes, right? To say oh, well that's in the social responsibility department or the HR, that just says, okay, so you're not really, you don't think we're capable of helping you with your product or service, we're sort of part of this, and it's like, no. So I think you want to mainstream it, which is what a lot of I&D things are trying to do now. >> Host: Inclusion and diversity. >> Inclusion and diversity. >> To make it part of the fabric, not a department checkbox. >> Exactly. >> That's what you're getting at. >> Exactly and the involvement of these departments, to include everybody and to make it more diverse is going to be not frictionless. It will be friction until a time where it won't even be necessary. I&D departments should have one goal which is to work themselves out of a job. If they can work themselves out of a job, then the company would have done what it needs to be done, but I think-- >> Meaning it's self sufficient, it's self governing, people are humans, it's respect for individuals. I mean this just basically comes down to, if you look at it as humans, it takes it, every conversation could be tabled, that's what? There's a person on the other side, it's a human being, not a woman or a white male or whatever. They're not there yet, but I mean certainly that would be the endgame, so in that scenario, that department's out of business, the I&R, the inclusion and diversity department, has done its job. >> Exactly, you don't need one because you know you're okay. And I think capabilities is really important in corporations and this isn't anybody's fault, this is just how it's been done. This has just been the culture of it. Who gets invited to which meetings. Who gets invited to which conferences. And so we heard the CEO of YouTube, Susan Wojcicki saying, you know, she had to sort of elbow a little bit to say hey, why am I not allowed at a certain conference and it's like, maybe just wake up to that and say why aren't you involving more people at conferences and think tanks because, you know, I come from an oil and gas background and people used to do a lot of deals on the golf course 'cause oil and gas people play golf a lot and a lot of deals used to happen, well in the Valley we don't play golf a lot but we do do other things, conferences or get togethers, and if you don't include the people in your team as groups or representationally, well they're not going to be there when you make these decisions so maybe just be a little bit-- >> Exclusionary is a problem and Kleiner Perkins was taken to task, they had ski trips apparently planned and they did all mostly guys and they didn't invite the women part, there was a big scandal. This is where they make that, it's a normative thing and they've got to change the norms. >> Change the norms and if you actually want your company which is made of all kinds of people to move really far ahead, don't be like that. Include everybody because the only goodness about that is you'll go forward. If you don't include somebody, well you're going to hurt them. >> I want to add to that. So there's quite a bit of data. So the patterns are not anything different from what the message girls get from school and parents. So if you look at the data there are 100 countries that legally discriminate against women and so what message industry is telling, is really, firstly it doesn't filter through to the larger population. Silicon Valley is a completely different problem, but overall, the messages girls are given is like, this is not for you, and so especially in some of the most populous, dense countries of the world. And so we have to fight a lot of these kinds of perceptions from the ground up and the number one gatekeeper is the father and so a key part of what we've now done to date is to provide education and training to the parents because there's a very moving story that we work in a remote town in south India and a mentor who's very dedicated has been trying to get these girls to participate in Technovation. He did that and then one girl was actually offered a job but the father kept saying no, not needed, no girl in my family ever needs to work, but he fought it and so the girl actually gets a job. And then a year later, the father calls the mentor and said, you know what, I'm so grateful that you did it because a day after she got the job, I got hit in an accident and I lost my job, but it's these kinds of perceptions that have to be changed one person at a time which is what makes this very hard, unless you actually are able to get the media to change the messaging and I think in the U.S., which is, there's some very interesting studies and a question, right, like if you were to think, would there be more women in STEM in poorer, developing countries versus richer, highly developed countries. Where would you see more women in STEM? The answer is actually the women in the poorer countries like Iran, Malaysia. The reason is because in an individualistic society like in the U.S., where there's a lot of emphasis on materialistic but it's also about are you happy. The conversation has changed from parents telling children and do what makes you happy and then you are very prone to advertising and advertising works when it's highly targeted and highly gendered. And so in the 60s, there was no such thing as pink and blue. Now there is pink and blue. And so now we just made our entire society entirely susceptible to advertising. And girls are passive and complaint and boys are aggressive and so then when you're looking at the board structures, it's very, very hard to fix the problem right there. You have to go down deeper because you don't get leaders who are complaint. Maybe secretaries are compliant. But you have to fix the message that teachers give girls, that parents give their baby girls when they are born, and so industry is just sort of in the spotlight right now but the issue is not that of industry, I think it's also that of society. >> Industry, if you look at what Sundar is supporting you guys it's interesting that this industry seems to chipping and certainly Silicon Valley is a little different as you said, but in general, it is a cultural parent thing. Any plans there with Technovations to have a parent track? >> Yes, totally. I mean, I think, right now, 10% of parents actually volunteer to be mentors, kind of like girl scout troop leaders, and so we are trying to figure out, okay, what is a way to involve parents and to make them part of the discussion? >> Tara, Anar, thanks so much. This is The Cube conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto Studios, with two great guests, Tara Chklovski, who's the founder and CEO of Iridescent, and Anar Simpson, Global Ambassador of Technovation. Thanks for coming in today. Appreciate moving your schedules around to come in. Thanks for coming to our studio. >> You bet, yeah. >> So Sundar Pichai was at your event. That's the big story this past week. There's has been a Google memo from a low level employee who wrote some things that got the whole world sharking around gender biases, role of women in tech. We do a lot of women in tech as you know in theCUBE, hundreds and hundreds of women over the years, friends, and also smart people. This seem a pretty big moment for you guys. You had an event at Google. Sundar canceled his on-hands meeting to address this, under fear of retaliation and safety, but came to your event on Google Campus, surprising to many. It's written up on Recode and The Verge. Pretty notable. So tell us about what happened. >> So, yeah, this was the 2017 Technovation World Pitch Competition and the awards ceremony. And Sundar came and he talked to a lot of the girls who were presenting their ideas to solve problems in their community, and then he had a little bit of a one-on-one conversation to learn a little bit more about the kinds of problems, their interest in technology entrepreneurship, and then he addressed the crowd of 900 plus supporters, and really emphasized that there's a place for women in technology, and more importantly, for him and Google, that there's a place for these girls at Google. >> Great timing for you guys too. And I want to drill more into what happened but I want to just point out this was a scheduled stop for Sundar in terms of it. You guys have a program called Technovation which was a 2017 World Pitch, folks around, you're the Global Ambassador, take a minute to talk about what Technovation is. Why was it on Google's Campuses? What was it all about? What does Global Ambassador mean? Talk about your mission. >> Right, so Technovation's mission is to empower girls to become technology entrepreneurs and it's much more than just learning how to code. It's really about seeing girls and telling girls that if there's a problem in their community, technology can help them have a very powerful voice. We've been running for eight years and Anar is our Global Ambassador who's helped us grow to more than a hundred countries. Technovation's relationship with Google is eight years long. Google has supported Technovation, was the very first technology company to support Technovation way before any other company saw the potential. And since then, since 2010, Google has provided funding, mentors, spaces, not just across the US but globally. And so this year, it was a year long worth of relationship made with code which is their arm focusing on gender equality. They basically provided funding but made this event possible at Google headquarters. >> Anar talk about the Global Ambassador role you have, and kind of comes down to the question for Tara as well, is it beyond entrepreneurship and beyond coding? I mean talk about specifically what you guys are bringing to folks outside the Silicon Valley. >> Oh sure, so my role as the Global Ambassador for Technovation is really getting to girls all over the world and saying to them you need to be engaged in technology. And what we found, as Tara mentioned, we've been doing this now, I've been doing this now for five years, is that we're building a movement. We're bringing in girls, we're bringing in mentors, we're bringing in companies and governments together to make this a reality for girls in tech careers in their own countries. And I want to go back and address Google's relationship with Technovation a little bit more because this is more of an anecdote. I got into Technovation not willingly. Six years ago I had a start-up, it was called Parallel Earth, and I was working hard at it. And I was using the offices at Mozilla because they allow people to do that, you know people like me to work there. And one day somebody sent me a note, it just came on the internal email system, and they said, "You're a woman, you're in tech, "there's an event going on at Andreessen Horowitz "where the luminaries of the Valley are going to be talking." And so the luminaries were Mary Samayo who was at Google at that time, Freada Kapor Klein, Padma Ashriwurier , and I think that there was two other people. And so we went to this event and we sat in a packed room at Andreessen Horowitz. And these women, the luminaries at the Valley at that time, each one of them stood up and told us their story, and afterwards they fed us hors d'oeuvres and offered us wine. And then they said before you go, we have one to ask of you which is could you sign up to be a mentor for Technovation. And I thought to myself, no, I am like over my head in my own company. I don't even have time for myself. And they asked, be a mentor, it's just two hours a week for 12 weeks. And I thought to myself, oh God, man, I drank their wine, I ate their hors d'oeuvres, I listened to them and now how can I say no? And so I signed up. And it was a stretch for me because what happened at that time, the curriculum was still being delivered by a person. And so I've been assigned to the Google Campus in Mountainview. And somebody in engineering at Google had been able to get a room, a very small conference room. And so for 12 weeks I met this team of girls from Mountainview, and there were other mentors like me, and then there was a whole bunch of girls from Sequoia High School. And John, in that 12 weeks, I was a changed woman. Those five girls, they blossomed under me. When I met them, I said to them, "I'm here, I am a type A, this is a competition." >> "I signed up for the Andreessen Horowitz--" >> Exactly, exactly. "Listen, I got my own star, "but we're going to win, this is a competition." So they just rolled their eyes at me, like, who the heck she is, we don't even want to be here. >> John: They draw the short straw on this one. >> Exactly. But those 12 weeks changed my life. >> John: In what way, what way did it change your life? >> I have a degree in Computer Science. I have a Master's in Communication. I went to Stanford for innovation and entrepreneurship. So I've been in the field for a very long time. And what I saw in terms of the curriculum, what I saw in terms of the mentorship, what I learned about design thinking and being able to create an app, I never had that. When people like me, we go in to a university, and doing computer, we never had that kind of stuff. And I thought, oh my God, if I'd had that, I would be, like, soaring the skies right now. And to have girls who really came to this table with nothing, and you see them becoming graphic designers because they had a little bit of access to Microsoft Paint, someone who has the ability to do PowerPoint, one girl, in my team of five, almost never showed up, she was late, she never came, and then two sessions before the Pitch, she showed up and she realized, have we've gone so far without her. So here's what she did, she took that little graphic that that woman who'd done it in Paint, and she got her mom and they went to some t-shirt shop, and they got that graphic printed. And the next time she came, there were five t-shirts that said the name of our team which was Intoxication Station, and one for me. And then it turns out she's a really good speaker. Who knew? So she almost never came, brought these shirts, was the speaker for the group, and we won the local competition and then the next one, then we placed second in the finals. >> She came in, contributed with a t-shirt, and graced you the back end, won the trust of the group, ended up being the speaker and winning the award. >> Yes, they grew, they literally, you know if you take a time lapse and you see a flower blossom, that's exactly what happened. >> Tara talk about your credentials 'coz you have a Ph.D. >> So I have a, yeah, Bachelor's in Physics, and Master's in Aerospace, and I was in the Ph.D. program in Aerospace but I dropped out because I wanted to start Iridescent. >> That's good. Dropping out of Ph.D. has a good track record. A lot of folks who dropped out of Stanford includes some of the big names we now know. What's some examples during your life when you had those kind of changed moments? >> I think, Iridescent, we are now in our 12th year. Every couple of months it's a changed moment because it's a test of grit. And just believing in yourself because I mean, I started with just an idea and grew it to be an organization that's all over the world. And it doesn't come with just full-hearted focus. A lot of courage is what I've seen. I have also seen how much you are passionate about an idea really swings how the other person is thinking. And so the idea only matters so much, I think, of course, I mean, the track record and everything has to be there, but I think a lot of it depends on your own passion for it, and I've come to realize that passion is maybe proportional to the complexity and the impact of the problem you're trying to solve. So if you're only trying to solve a small problem, you lose interest in two years, right, and maybe that's why, I'm always curious, why do so many start-ups fail after two or three years? It's because maybe you came in not thinking that you're going to change the world, maybe you came in because you wanted to make quick money, or et cetera, whatever. And so I think for me this is my life's work. And if you want to bring more and to represent the communities into innovation. And so it's not something that's going to be solved easily. >> Start-up success and then people working on teams, really is about inclusion and letting things bloom and being ready for anything. That's the greatest feat. Let's get back to the Sundar event that you guys were having. Now this is a good conversation to have because one of the things that came out of the aha that became that memo, really was a conversation publicly. And now it's been polarizing. There's just some kind of a hate, hate kind of mindset with it most of the time. Plenty of stuff in the internet to go read there, but what actually are some good conversations in the industry? What was the conversation like during the event? Because this was in full conversation mode while you guys were having your 2017 World Pitch competition of which he presided over and had a speech to the entrepreneurs. What was it like? What are some of the conversations that were taking place? >> I think the most powerful piece of the whole evening was really the girls walking in and seeing the incredible diversity that we have in this world, right. So we had girls, and mentors, and supporters, from over 30 countries and just them coming and waving the flags, and different faces, and different cultures, all trying to make the world a better place. I mean, it's rare that you see that, using technology. And I think it's very fitting that Silicon Valley is the center of this. But I think there was not one dry eye in the group because you realized the conversation is so much bigger than one company, one country. It is something that affects us as all human beings, and you believing in human potential. So I think seeing these young girls, some of them 10 years old, there was this, I think, maybe the crowd's favorite was these 10-year-old girls from Cambodia who want to improve sort of the lives of these people working in cottage industries, right. And they created an app, like, say, Etsy or something, but focused on Cambodian products, and the courage of these little girls, I think everybody walks away feeling okay there's hope even in the midst of all of this discussion. >> It creates a lightning rod in some ways that hopefully will move on to the substantive conversations. How do you guys feel about what happened as you take this mission forward? You guys are doing some amazing work. And we'll do a segment on that in a minute, but given the landscape now, how do you view this? How are you talking with friends and colleagues and family members around it? Because I certainly had conversations with my friends certainly in the east coast, like, "No, no, that's not the way Silicon Valley is." Google actually is a very cool company. It's not what you think it is. They're very open. They support a lot of great initiatives. And they're candid. And then I go on and explain. It's like a university. So me and Larry have this little ecosystem that they've kind of built the university culture if you will. But it's open and there's things that happened that get misrepresented. That was my take for the folks who don't know Silicon Valley. But what's your take? What do you think about what's happened? >> So this is really, really good that you brought up the university campus, environment of it. So I have two girls, they're both millennials, and they're both in a tech world. And we had this discussion. And here is the perfect answer, right. So one of my daughters, Kat, she said that when she read that, she thought it was basically a gathering of his thoughts. And it was a gathering of his thoughts because he was probably asked to adhere to I&D stuff that's going on, in every company right now, right. And so he was like a little bit of a, wait a second, he wants to sort of, respond to his being asked to go to I&D stuff. And then Katya said, "But you know mom, "it was just a gathering of his thoughts. "And if this is an essay, and it was a poorly written one, "and if I was grading it, I would give him a C minus." Then my older daughter said-- >> John: Oh, she'll give him an F on that one. >> Right. >> John: C minus, she's generous. >> No, because he did. He tried to make it very professional and very academic. And she said but it was a first draft. He didn't proceed to toughen it up, solidify it, find more evidence, have it critic. It was just a gathering of his thoughts and he hasn't gone through the process. Both these girls graduated from Berkeley and so I think they would know what a C paper look like versus an A paper. And then my older daughter said, "And the other thing is, "it's not like "I&D efforts "are actually bad, "but what we're trying to do is "we're trying to condense the time "in which we're trying to get women "at equal peering in the tech world." Now women have never been at equal peering in many professions. There were not enough doctors, lawyers, accountants, you name it, right? Main street, Wall Street has never had equality. And now we're looking at technology and the reason everything just flares up in technology is because we live in today's world, where news and information is available all the time. So there's two things going on. Information is readily available. People can come in to the conversation very quickly. And whenever anything happens in Silicon Valley, the effect is massive because all eyes are on Silicon Valley all the time. So it's a bit of a distorted view. But we have gone through this. It took a long time for women to become astronauts. It took a long time for women to become neurosurgeons. It took a long time for women to become lawyers and dentists. It will take a little bit of time for women to become top technologists. But we're hoping that it'll shorten and things happen quickly in the Valley and we're trying to get that quicker. And so we're seeing a little bit of friction. This is responses from millennials. So for me it was like-- >> John: Interesting perspective. >> Yes, great perspective. And when Sundar said these things at the World Pitch, I was sitting in the second row and every time he said something I would clap really loud. And Todd said, "Why are you being so good?" And I said, "I need to hear that. "I need to her him say that because--" >> John: What did he say that moved you? >> Oh, he just said you have a place in technology. And I said yes. We needed to hear you say that right away, all the time, and especially to these girls, these two 18-year-old girls, and all of the ones that come from a hundred countries that weren't at Google but were listening to the live pitch. And I needed to hear it. I'm a veteran but I needed to hear it because-- >> It's interesting too the narrative that the millennials and certainly the younger kids hear is an echo of what comes down. And, interesting, my son who is 15, at dinner last night said, "Dad, I'm a white male. "What does that mean?" >> Poor guy. >> Then I'm like, oh my God, he's a kid. So, again, things are shifting, they're out of context. Tara your thoughts on how this all evolves and the positive things that folks can do. What's your perspective? >> Yeah, I mean, I think, I had a lot of discussion with my husband yesterday on this because he's a white male, right? And, but also we have two daughters, right. And so there's this whole he for she campaign, right. And that I think like our conversation earlier, the discussion has to be very inclusive and you cannot polarize. And I think I have to be careful because, I mean, my passion is what drives the work because the work is hard, but I have to also remind that, okay, there's a whole another segment of the population that cares, right, and, so I think it's just constantly remembering these kinds of things. I think in terms of what the industry can do, I think the normal thing is that people are doing which is really well, investing lower in the pipeline, investing in young girls, and all of that kind of stuff, and also sort of the inclusion and diversity stuff in the workforce. But I think there are some other segments, other industries that we can learn from, and I think one very unique place is actually the aviation industry. But the experimental aircraft, so we're just aviation enthusiasts, right. And so they have this gathering, yearly annual gathering, and 600,000 people come from all over the world, the thing that makes it unique and there's almost equal representation, there are two things that make it very unique. First is the family affair. And I think the tech industry has done a very good job, sort of convening these developer conferences but they are closed and most of them are 100% male, right? I think there could be something there where the, again much more than a company, that the industry has to do. And to make it maybe not commercial but do it as a fun family gathering and not in Silicon Valley. And then I think the second would be to actually lean on the veterans of the industry to share their passion with the young ones. And I think one of the problems of technology is that it's moved so fast that it has become very abstract. And nothing is very hands on. If you open up something, you will not understand anything. And so what the aviation industry had done really well is to showcase the core fundamental principles of how these things work using the old airplanes, old engines, combustion engines. But you can see how things work, right, and so-- >> John: It's like kindergarten. >> Exactly, exactly, start that way and then you can go into the more complex. But I think there's a role for the veterans of the tech world to play here. And I think it's not just sort of gender but it's also maybe age and making it much more about the family, rather than just the developer in the family. >> Tara and Anar, you guys are inspiration. Thanks for taking the time. And I've had the, my age, luxury of spending nine years at Hewlett Packard company before, maybe these early 90s when Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard were around. And one of the things that really influenced me, and I think this is something that I see a positive light coming in this industry, to your point, about so much changes, is that we seem to be going back to a crowd that wants to see respect for the individuals, citizenship. These were company values at Hewlett Packard when I was there that I always remembered was unique. Hey, you can have differences but if you have respect for the individual, and you have the citizenship mindset, that seems to have been lost in tech, and with this whole movement you're seeing, win at all cost, being an asshole, what you going to do to be a CEO, or flip it fast, or programs. So it became a very selfish environment. It seems to be shifting that way with this conversation. Your thoughts? >> So I have to say doing a start-up is not easy. Getting successful in this word is not easy. Shaking the status quo is not easy. So I have to say that the same people and we're not going to name names, but the same people who are very arrogant and have little respect for the laws and rules, they have given us products that are changing people's lives. There is no question about it. With that, they're a provider. With that, they're sort of "I don't care, I'm just going to go over you "if you don't comply with me." A lot of ride sharing, wouldn't even have happened. And to me when you provide employment, when you provide alternative services, when you provide something that takes away the way things were, I see that as a plus, okay. I think what we're seeing is that's needed to a certain extent, and then you realized, okay, now we have to get back to growing it and working it. And if you keep going in that mode, you probably won't succeed. >> So being tough and determined and having grit is what you need to breakthrough those walls as a start-up. You don't need to be necessarily a jerk. But your point is if you're creating value. >> If you're creating value, and that sometimes you actually have to be a jerk because there are a very few brave, non-jerk people who have gone against big unions and big monopolies, right. I would not be able to go against the taxi commission. You need somebody who's a complete a-hole to do that. And he did that and it made a difference. He doesn't have to continue to do that and that's-- >> There was a meme going around the internet, "If you want to make friends, sell ice cream." >> Exactly. >> So you can't always win friends when you're pioneering. >> Right, right. There is a balance and maybe we've fostered the fact that you need to be that attitude for everything and that's not true. The pendulum shifted a bit too much. But I think that we shouldn't scorn them because really they have made a difference. Let everybody get back to-- >> It's a tough world out there to survive. And you have to have that kind of sharp elbows to make things happen. But it's the value your providing, it's how you do it. >> Exactly. >> Well thanks so much guys for coming up. Appreciate to spend the time to talk about your awesome event at 2017 World Pitch as part of Technovation where Sundar represented Google in your great program with young girls go over some tech books. Thanks for sharing. This is CUBE conversation here at Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost this week, John Troyer, here at the OpenStack Summit in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back to the program, Lee Doyle, who is Principal Analyst with Doyle Research. Lee, nice to see you. >> Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so networking's your main space. >> Lee: Absolutely >> We've talked about networking for a bunch of years here at the show. Last year: telecommunication, NFV. This year, it seem like half the people on the main stage worked for, you know, some big Telco, and NFV, buzz on the edge. Before we get into some of the initial pieces, what's your take on the OpenStack community, in general, and the show? We're gettin' towards the end so what's your take been this week? >> Always great to have the show in Boston, my hometown. OpenStack and telecom have been going together hand in hand since the beginning of OpenStack, really, and a lot of contributions and use to the big service providers who are here, AT&T, Verizon, some others. So OpenStack's really becoming a good platform for their NFV and virtualization modernization efforts. >> Before we get into some of the cool, new stuff. Core networking, I mean, Neutron's one of those things we've been banging on for years. It seems like it's matured to a bit, But always the one, I mean, networking's never done, right? We're always cranking on it, doing new things. What do you hear about the stability? What the community hears? Is the networking thriving good? Any feedback you've had. >> Sure, no, it was good question and always a question that I ask folks. I think we've seen significant maturity in Neutron. It's stable, it performs, it does a lot of things we expect networks to do, but there still are third party network solutions. If you look at Big Switch or Cumulus or others, say, you don't want to use Neutron or you want to enhance it, feel free to work with us to provide even better networking. >> In a broad trend, companies you mentioned, they're software companies. >> Lee: Absolutely. >> Networking is like boxes and cabling and things like that. How is that software-eating-the-world stack up when it comes to the network space? >> I think the majority of the value in networking, as in IT, is in software, right? The majority of the revenue is in boxes, which are hardware and software integrated. So, from a technology standpoint, it's very software driven. From a market standpoint, it's still box driven. We're in between those two and that's what makes this a very interesting point in time. >> Maybe you could tease apart for us a little bit, for people on the enterprise side, they're used to hearing the letters SDN, right? >> Lee: Right. >> Here, if you're talking to telecom NFV, slightly different takes on some similar problems about service, management, and delivery. >> Lee: Right. >> In OpenStack, are the same bits, is Neutron used by the enterprise for SDN in the same way it's used at the network core by the service providers or are these really two different planes that are developing? >> Right and it's a bit of a complex question. At Doyle Research, what I've done to simplify, is talking about software based networking. So that includes SDN, that includes NFV. Those things overlap and we'll get very hung up, like, what does SDN mean? It's separation control and data plane. What does network function virtualization mean? What's an Etsy telecom standard for taking boxes in the telecom network and turning them into software? So, I try to get away from that and move towards: ok, what is it we're trying to accomplish? Well, with OpenStack, we're trying to deliver networking. It's going to be in software. There still might be, and probably is, some form of Ethernet switch or other box that's moving the bits, right? So, the way I think about it is some of the SDN products that I mentioned, like Cumulus or Big Switch, would be enhancements to something that's a core function of OpenStack, which I wouldn't traditionally call SDN, but that's my view. >> Lee, speak to us, what have you heard about Edge? It was one of those things we heard, the buzz coming in. There's a couple different definitions. The telecommunication people have a very, you know: that's the edge of our network. When I talked to enterprise people, it's IoT and sensors. So what are you hearing about Edge? How's network play across all those? >> Right, well, Edge is very much how you define it or which environment you're talking about, right? Traditionally, in the telecom world, you've got your core of your network and you've got your edge of the network and how that's defined in between because you have network capabilities all throughout the environment. SD-WAN is by far been the hottest technology, not just in terms of buzz, but in terms of actual deployment both in enterprise and service provider. In the service provider space, that sort of blurs into what the vCPE offerings are. So you hear: Verizon, Telefonica just made an announcement, went with Nuage on that. So you can go through all the major service providers. Either they're incorporating SD-WAN functionality into their VCP or they're announcing SD-WAN functionality separately. >> Is there any connection between the SD-WAN stuff and OpenStack I hadn't heard or talked about. Of course, hot technology. We covered Riverbed's announcements. Last year, Viptela, been on The Cube a number of times, just acquired by Cisco. Where do you see SDN playing out? Is this the year that it just becomes a feature? Does it still stay as a distinct market segment? >> On the OpenStack question. OpenStack's traditionally sort of a cloud-based, the bigger data center thing. There are elements you can use and leverage from OpenStack at the edge. In terms of SD-WAN, we're at the hockey-stick phase. The market's going straight up, starting to see wide-scale deployments across a large number of verticals. Usually, the verticals that have lots of branches. So you look at financial services, you look at retail, but you can extend to government, and healthcare, and anywhere where you're trying to do a lot of connectivity between distributed environments. And the real change is that, previously, you do a hub-and-spoke network. You get MPLS, you take the information from the branch and you move it to your corporate data center or data centers. Well now, cloud, SaaS. The information doesn't need to go to the data center. In fact, if it goes to the data center, you add a lot of latency. So SD-WAN is adding the intelligence, the traffic-steering, the ability to manage multiple networks and to move away from MPLS and towards more cost-effective internet connectivity. So, there's still 25. Viptela was the biggest company taken out recently but there's still 24 other solutions and probably more being announced over the next six months. >> Stu: Wow, 24, huh? >> At least, yeah. >> I'm curious, we talk about hybrid-cloud and multi-cloud and networking's one of the things that sort of tie all of that together. How do thing like Kubernetes, and the public-to-private piece, how's that shaking out in the network space? >> Well, networks have to support multi-cloud environments. They need to support what's happening privately, publicly, VMware, Red Hat, OpenStack obviously, and soon to be containers. Each of those are little bit different. So can you have a network solution that spans all of that? One of the things that VMware is very public about talking about, at this show, is their ability to do the hybrid public-private. Red Hat talks about that and I spent a lot of time last week on that topic as well. >> As you're talking with network engineers, both in service providers and out at the enterprise. We've talked about all this change, we've hyped the cloud, we're now switching from a hardware-centric model to a more software defined, literally. Are you seeing new skillsets needed for these network engineers? Automation, you know, does the job change as we go forward? >> Absolutely, it changes. When you look at a traditional CCIE, which is Cisco certified, that's about Cisco APIs, Cisco boxes, in a world where there's a lot of other software elements and you've got to tie to different orchestration, different management, public-private cloud. There absolutely is different skillsets and there needs to be an evolution and it's on of the challenges of the networking industry because there simply aren't enough people who are familiar with building the new style, software-driven networks as there need to be. >> John: With all this exhilaration and change, how are you seeing people say at the management layer, the management layer of people, the CxO layer, how are they dealing with all this change? You know, new technologies, emerging technologies. Things are not slowing down. >> No and so AT&T has a large-scale, public training program that tries to get its people skilled up to the new technologies. I know a lot of the other Telcos, who have been less public about it, are doing the same. If you go to large network user groups like ONUG, they're talking about new skillsets and how to train there. There's also the organizations. Do you blend compute, storage, application, and networking folks all in the same team. And I know you guys have talked about that previously. How quickly do organizations do that or do they remain relatively traditional. The CIOs are thinking about that, they're reorganizing, but it's not going to be just snap your fingers and hey, everyone's ready for the new software-driven world. >> Yeah, it's a fascinating thing, of course. Networking industry tends to move a little-bit slow. Especially enterprise and we've been talking about fast and agile for a lot of things but that does not characterize that. That being said, feels like things do move faster. What's the general attitude you hear from customers? Are they still reticent to move forward? Others slow to move those processes? You kind of hear, things like security, tend to realize I need to update more, I need to move forward. What do you hear when you're talking to customers, today versus, lets say, only five years ago? >> Sure, we're five years in on NFV and Etsy and I think we're making significant progress. You hear a lot about us at the shows where the Telcos are wanting NFV, but it's still in the initial phases. We've been talking about SDN and the enterprise for about the same amount of time and, you know, mainstream enterprises. The hyper-scale guys, you know: Google, Amazon, Facebook. Yeah, they're already there and they're very innovative and people are following their example and leveraging that. But I just think we're still early in the truly software-driven networking game. >> One of the questions I always have is: What size company you are and what capability do you have? What do you do internally? Versus, do you just adopt a platform that's going to do all that stuff for you? You and I talked about this years ago about network-fabric type of topologies, all the different pieces that went out. There's certain sized organizations, you're going to just go to someone else that can do that. I hear some pieces, Kubernetes might be the same kind of things. Do you see that? People just saying it's not outsourcing anymore, but I'm going to be more strategic, focus on my business, my applications, and let somebody else handle the underlying stuff. >> If IT, or the network, or branch operations is not central to what you do, I think outsourcing makes perfect sense. And that may be outsourcing it to a reseller, or someone to manage it for you, it may still be on-prem. But more and more the workloads are going to the clouds. >> And the reason I move away from outsourcing, the old outsourcing was: my mess for less and this is a more strategic: what piece of the stack do I own or what do I run versus someone else. It's not: I told you this is the exact configuration in something you run. It's: I'm buying x-bandwidth, x-performance, things like that and it's something that's updated a little more frequently. They manage that piece and it's further down the stack than I care to look at. >> Lee: Sure, there's new, managed service providers who look at your WAN and networks, so that comes into play. The leading Telcos would certainly want to play a role here beyond just providing the pipe. They want to take care of your networking challenges for you. So there's a lot of new options for folks who don't want to build and buy and sweat there. >> Do you see a difference between what's going on inside the U.S. and then in the rest of the world in terms of the Telcos, and services they're rolling out, ambitions, and where they want to play? >> There are clearly geographic differences when you get into telecom but it's not as simple as saying: x-geography is doing. You almost have to go operator by operator, there. >> Anything that you've seen here at the show. This is your first summit. You've been following, obviously, the space for a very long time. Anything you've seen here, either sessions, or vendors, or users doing interesting things, or anything that's excited you recently in areas that you're following and are interested? >> Yeah, the passion here for OpenStack is undeniable. You've got a lot of people who are committed to the community, they're aware of the networking challenges, and the significant strides we've made with OpenStack networking, but also where we need to go in the future. So, it's exciting to be here and fun to see everyone. >> Last thing I want to ask, Lee. Is there anything that, advice you want to give the community? Things that you heard of from users or you observed where we should mature over the next iteration of the solution set? >> I think, as a technology-driven community, it's always incumbent on the community to really explain the business benefits and talk about how this technology is really solving real-world problems. And it is, but it's just making that translation, sometimes, is challenging. >> Alright, Lee Doyle, great to catch up with you and, like yourself, thrilled to be here in Boston for a technology show. Hope to have more of these here, as always. It's our second week, back-to-back, here in Boston amongst all the other shows we've been doing at SiliconANGLE Media so, stay tuned. John and I have a few more interviews left as we get to wrap up three days of programming here from the OpenStack summit. Thanks for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, its the Cube, covering NAB 2017, brought to you by HGST. >> Hi, welcome back to NAB, I'm Lisa Martin. We have had a very exciting day so far, talking with lots of great leaders. Very excited to be joined next by Joan Wrabetz, the VP of Marketing for HGST. Joan welcome to the Cube. >> Joan: Thank you, its good to be here. >> We're very excited to have you here. NAB 2017, this is our first time here. An event with over 100,000 people, overwhelming, walked a lot of miles so far today. Tell me your first impressions of NAB this year. >> Yes, well this is also my first year at NAB. And it's a little overwhelming. Yeah, a lot of people and the technology is everything from suit to nuts. I heard you can buy an, you can go upstairs and buy a helicopter. >> Wow. >> Yeah, which apparently is important in media and entertainment. >> >> So our little piece of it, which is IT, I think is a growing part, but yeah there's a little bit of everything here. >> There really, really is. I haven't seen the helicopters yet, I'll have to make my way upstairs. >> Yeah you can get a demo, a 3-D demo. >> Wow. Oh my goodness. >> >> So one of the pervasive, overarching themes of the event this year is the M-E-T effect, the MET effect, this convergence of media, entertainment and technology, which is so interesting, and as we were talking before, technology is both the bane of the existence of a lot of companies, in any industry, as well as something that provides tremendous opportunity. >> Yeah. >> As you lead Marketing for HGST, when you're talking to major studios, how are CTOs reacting to market trends that are going on, whether it's virtual reality, or, now we've got so much more data that we need to keep because there's more IP there? How is that CTO journey changing in response to technology proliferation? >> Right, well it's interesting. Some CTOs are very aware that they're in the middle of a big disruption, for which data related technologies are going to be the key to surviving. Others, not so sure. And they'll say, in the first meeting, "You know, I'm not the storage guy, I don't worry about, you know, asset archivings. So, there's probably nothing you can sell me." And it only takes about ten minutes for them to realize that that's probably not true, that underneath most of their biggest challenges there's some aspect of how to manage a large amount of data. They're in the middle of a big disruption in their industry. One CTO told me that, you know, new people don't go to movies anymore. There's a loyal audience of people who go to the movie theater, and I'm one of them, I'm a complete videophile. But a lot of younger people just don't go to movies. They get the same content in other ways, whether it's Netflix, whether its movies at home. And so there's a huge disruption going on there, that the way people want to consume the content that studios create is really changing. They tend to want to consume it in ways that require more than just the storyline, which is kind of what a film in a movie theater is. It's got to be interactive. So if I buy a DVD or the digital version of it to take home, I often want added scenes, or extra stuff. If I might be playing a video game, that's based on an actual real piece of content, that's going to be an interactive form of it. Some of the new technologies that are coming out, like virtual reality, are really interactive. That's where they shine. It's not a format for theaters. So, they recognize that they have this core content, they have to deliver it in a very different set of ways. And delivering it in a different set of ways means curating it and keeping it and producing it in different ways. So not only is the accuracy and the quality of the content going up, right, I've got these 8K cameras and everything, the delivery mechanism is changing so that I'm going to keep and create this content in a lot of different ways. Underneath all of that is about how do I keep it, how do I store it? So all these disruptive changes are driving a proliferation of massive amounts of data. So that's one side of it, they just have to keep this stuff. >> Right. >> For insurance purposes, for historical purposes, they're keeping it. The flip side is monetizing, right. So you mentioned before Netflix. So Netflix is in a very interesting position in the industry in that they own so much information about you and me, the people who watch movies, they know all about our preferences. I can come right back into a show at the exact place I left off on a different TV in another location. And I love that about Netflix. And they also know a lot about my habits. When I go to a movie theater the guys that produce that movie aren't getting that from me. >> It's more of a qualitative reaction. >> Exactly. >> That they're employing. >> Right. But the flip-side is that Netflix, historically, has only been able to give out content as it's been provided to them. Whereas if you're in a film production and you can get feedback from your users, you can really modify your movie. You can change the storyline, they change the endings. I mean they take characters in and out. So I think on the one hand, the film industry's understanding that knowing the behaviors and the preferences of individual consumers is critical to success in the future. Meanwhile Netflix, who has that information, knows that curating and making their own content is critical to their success, otherwise having personalized information is of no value if I can't customize the content. So they're all figuring out that there's some core thing that they need in this disruptive world that they don't have. And in both cases it's about content. And it's about the storage and the data and the ways that they can take that data and find useful, basically mine useful information out of it. >> Right, and new revenue streams. So imagine that the conversation with the studio that ten minutes later, you said, understands, "Oh wait, this actually is a conversation about archiving this." There's so much data, but it must be, to put it bluntly, overwhelming. How do you help really transform the culture from the C suite down to say IT? Help them understand what are the steps that we need to take, given that we've got petabyte scale data that needs to be archived and needs to be easily accessible. You were mentioning something before we went live about, you know, studios that go, "We shot this this way and it's great but man wouldn't that be great with VR?" >> Right >> So it's really interactive. What is that? Walk us through that evolution that you help CTOs and their teams understand with respect to getting an archive strategy that allows them a lot of capability and functionality. >> And that's exactly kind of a key word is strategy. Right, so historically the CTO might have looked at keeping copies of a movie that's no longer being created as an insurance policy almost. Today, its a strategic asset and some of those assets they recognize as being strategic and others they're not sure, right. So the first part of developing a strategy for getting use out of that data and monetizing it et cetera is understanding where the value might be. So the example I give is I was sitting with this CTO of one of the major studios, and we were just talking about virtual reality and how is virtual reality going to change their business. And he commented that, "Well we had just finished this beautiful ballroom scene, we finished the scene we said, 'Oh my gosh, that would've been a great VR scene.'" And so that scene had 250 extras, all in costume, for this ballroom dance, right. So they kept all those people in costume for four extra hours, went back and re-shot that scene. And I said to them, "Too bad you don't keep your dailies, you would've had that scene." >> Right >> So he kind of looked at me and said, "Wow, we never thought of the dailies," which is the film that they throw away that doesn't get kept from each days worth of filming. They don't see that as a critical asset, but if you start to rethink your problem, it is. So part of this strategy is having them start to think about what is and might be a critical asset going forward, and then how could they cost effectively save that information, because the reason they don't save dailies today is because it's another two petabytes. If I don't know the value of that that's pretty expensive, even at very low cost of storage. So it's both understanding how they can keep their cost down for certain types of information and get the value up, know that that value could be there. Then they build a different type of strategy than the one they have today which is really more of a defensive strategy. So we see, as we're talking to the major companies in this industry, they're all moving from a somewhat defensive to a very offensive strategy with digital assets. They have to or they'll be out of business. >> Absolutely. You recently spoke last month at the virtual NAB conference on hybrid redefined and the future of digital assets. What were some of the takeaways from you in terms of, or recommendations on how can the media and the entertainment industry really preserve these digital assets in hybrid workflows. >> Sure, well and the hybrid comes in because not only is there an explosion of data, but there's an explosion of processing requirements. So the cheapest, people think the cheapest way to do extra processing is to send it up to the cloud and do a lot of processing up there. Unfortunately the data has to go with it. So the challenge that they face is how to keep some of the data assets on site, where they are more protected, they're not subject to risk. And by the way if you take data and you move it in the cloud and you're moving it around it becomes very expensive. It's not expensive to keep data in the cloud, but it's very expensive if you touch it and move it. That's where they start making their money. So how can I keep my data where it's protected and where I don't have to pay to move it around, but get all the benefits of on demand processing with thousands of processors in the cloud. And the answer is you do need to make the data accessible to the workflow that might happen in the crowd. So most of these guys that do rendering, for example, they burst 20 to 50 percent of their rendering to the public cloud because they're on very tight schedules. And it just doesn't make sense to buy the extra equipment when it's only going to be used for three weeks. So hybrid workflows are about moving the processing around but not necessarily having to move all the data around and keep the data secure. And that's a big priority right now for all these media and entertainment companies to figure out. >> Is one of the benefits that they can get from that accelerating production workflows? >> Yes, I mean they're 100 percent deadline oriented. Right so you look at these animated movies, whether it's Despicable Me and the minions. It's all about how long it's going to take to produce that. So the workflow that is used to create and then render the animated information is, I mean that's it, that is the critical path. I had these guys in animation space talk to me about simple mistakes where they changed the hair on an animated figure and they look at it in the morning after it's all been re-rendered and the hair is half an inch behind the person. >>That's a problem. >> I mean and then they have to run it again and it takes eight hours. That's a whole day lost in a production schedule. And you know movies we see today, so much more of it is CGI than at any time in the past that even if it's not an animated movie, there's a whole lot of processing that's going on on that movie and that all is critical path. So yeah time is, of the workflow around that, that whole processing workflow, is absolutely time critical. Every minute that's spent costs them a lot of money. >> I can't imagine. And something that you mentioned, I want to ask the last question on collaboration. You talked about the benefits that Netflix has and then some of the challenges, or the opportunities, and the same thing on the side of the filmmakers. And it seems like it's this sort of circle. What did you call it? >> A virtuous cycle. >> The virtuous cycle. Do you see collaboration happening between some of the streaming providers and film? Is that a two-way street that is starting to become viable? >> Yes, and we do hear stories of them collaborating directly and indirectly. So indirectly where they have these common overlapping technology problems they're working together in industry organizations in media and entertainment whether its Simpty or Etsy, and trying to develop technologies that are for everyone's benefit. And then directly I think they do work together, and they see the benefits of, you know, that each other has, and try to learn and adopt some of the similar technologies. So I don't know if it's always been this way, but you get this feeling when you're here at NAB that there is this intense desire for everybody to learn from everyone else's strengths across the industry, it's not just film, it includes people who are doing sports, we talked about interactive gaming, and now we have video games being played in tournaments on live TV. So yeah we see a real sort of sharing of information and collaborating around best technology practices across all of media and entertainment in ways that I think are probably much, much more intense than in the past. >> Fantastic. Well it just shows the momentum that we're feeling around this event, this convergence of media, entertainment technology is incredibly viable. But to have this feeling that you're sharing of sharing best practices in collaboration is probably really, as this event, which has been going on for many, many years, evolved, really the direction that it should go into. >> Yep. >> Thank you so much, Joan, for joining us on the Cube. >> You're welcome. >> It's been so delightful speaking with you. And it sounds like never a dull moment, >> Nope. >> In the day in the life of you. >>Nope, it's always changing. >> Excellent. Well we wish you have a great time at the rest of the show. >> Thank you. >> And we thank you for watching The Cube. We are live at NAB 2017 in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin, stick around, we'll be right back.

hello my name is Brian Grace Lee analysts with wiki Bond and on today's wiki bond whiteboards we're gonna begin to understand container architectures containers are really the big technology talked about these days especially for infrastructure teams there's a component of it that's both application and infrastructure but in this whiteboard we're really going to understand the basics of how it applies to the infrastructure and we're going to try and put it in the context of things that most infrastructure teams understand today which is virtualization so let's go ahead and begin what we've done and again this is for context we've tried to take a standard environment that people are used to seeing for virtualization and in this case we're going to use VMware as the example because obviously broadest market share and a lot of people understand what they do so let's talk about the basics of what happens here people understand what happens at the host level I've got servers within each server I've got a hypervisor so in VMware's case ESX or ESXi within that hypervisor I'm going to go ahead and create virtual machines so every single virtual machine has a copy of the full operating system and then within that virtual machine I've got a an operating an application itself for multiple applications so everybody understands that pretty well now how I manage those hype with those hypervisors and virtual machines is through a centralized control plane and that's called V Center and V Center may be a single instance it may be a clustered instance but think of it as the thing that's going to manage the scheduling of the resources and the management of those resources and it's really only focused on virtual machines okay now above that we're going to have if we're deploying applications I can either deploy them by hand or I may begin to deploy them through application templates so I may deploy the same type of application over and over again a web server a sequel database something else do that consistently I'm going to use some sort of typically a templating function and a lot of that can come in the management flame framework from something like V realize VMware via realized and then on top of that I'm going to have my applications whatever those might be sequel databases s AP Oracle Microsoft applications whatever those things might be so the key things I want you to understand is at the host level its hypervisor virtual machine full operating system and application and at the control plane it's this sort of structured format of V Center cluster V Center is going to make sure that virtual machines get deployed on to those hosts and it's going to keep track of where they are and make sure that they stay alive using things like VMware H a VM or V motion and VMware fault tolerance okay so now that we have that basic context in place let's take a look at how the container ecosystem is beginning to evolve and in this example we're gonna use docker because similar to VMware right now docker is the most frequently used container technology there are other ones in the marketplace but we're going to use docker just as an example the rest of what we talked about will be applicable whether it's docker core OS rocket or a number of the other container technologies that are out there so let's begin down at the host level just like we did over here in the simplest form I'm gonna have a host I'm gonna have a server we're not going to have a hypervisor we're just going to have the operating system today in most container environments that operating system is going to be Linux now there's a lot going on in the marketplace where this will eventually be Linux and Windows Microsoft is is working quite a bit on this but for right now let's just say that operating system is Linux ok I'm going to have my container runtime which in this case is his docker and you can think about that as sort of being like a hypervisor but it's almost a lightweight hypervisor and then that container runtime is going to create my containers themselves and each one of those containers now what's unique about this that's different from this environment is each one of those containers only uses they all share the same operating system so again all of your containers within a single host have to run the same operating system either all Linux or eventually would be all Windows they're going to use the bits that they need from that operating system so the net-net of it is it's a lighter-weight footprint I should be able to boot them quicker and the reason people get very very fixated on I can boot a container fast is because in this container environment the types of applications that I'm building tend to be more what they call ephemeral pieces of them are going to go away they're going to come back I'm gonna want to spin them up quickly if I have a scalable application spin them up or spin them down and so what you're looking for is a operating environment that will come up very very quickly so just to put that in context to spin up a virtual machine it may take three four minutes because of the operating system coming up to spin up a container usually is on the order of a second or a couple of seconds so big you know order of difference between there now the second piece that's really important and this is where a lot of people kind of get confused about what's going on in the container ecosystem is what happens at that control plane and the first thing to understand is when we talked about you know virtualized applications we tend to talk about very stateful sometimes they're called platform two sometimes they're called legacy applications but they're more or less stateful so the expectation is once you deploy them other than maybe Vee motioning them around for availability you're not scaling them up and down you don't expect them to fail frequently and so the scalability needed at the control plane is fairly well-defined maybe it's a thousand hosts or 10,000 hosts when we start dealing with containers the types of applications we deploy tend to be more what they call 12 factor applications sometimes you hear them call modular applications cloud native applications the idea being they're much more modular they tend to be more state less so the idea of maintaining state tends to get pushed somewhere else but they're designed for scale they're designed for mobile applications for real-time data applications and so the control plane unlike here which tends to be somewhat stateful and more confined in terms of scale has to be designed to be a distributed control plane it has to be designed to scale much much larger and so as part of that what we see is we're seeing technologies come out that sort of break up the things that were functions inside of a vCenter control plane into sort of distinct technologies that number one tend to scale more because they're written in distributed manner and number two they've got a certain amount of sort of mix-and-match that you can have with them depending on what your applications gonna do so let's talk through the basic things that are in here the first layer that you'll often hear about is clustering how do I cluster together sets of container hosts an example of this is docker swarm technology another example of this is something like Etsy D from core OS it's a technology to sort of figure out where my clusters of hosts are going to be the next layer is what's called service discovery if I'm deploying hundreds and hundreds or thousands of devices I want to you know containers I want to be able to figure out what services are available queuing services database services you know notification services the things that are out there I need to do that dynamically and automatically the next piece is going to be scheduling those containers just like vCenter is going to put it on the right host to make sure that it's load balanced properly there's a scheduling function to make sure that containers get deployed to the right container and then the next piece is what they call application scheduling so in these environments I don't tend to schedule my applications in these environments they could be a mix of batch applications Hadoop applications long running applications short running applications I need a more advanced intelligent scheduler to make sure that I'm getting the containers and the applications deployed on the right place and as efficient as possible and then on top of that I have my actual applications so the takeaway from this is at the host level some difference between how heavy a virtualized environment is going to be versus a container environment and that you want that to match how your application requirements are and if the control plane a more structured model for doing the functions that you need to manage the environment in a container model a more distributed model so with that I'm gonna go ahead and wrap that up we're going to get into some more depth in other videos we hope you enjoy these once again this has been a wiki bound whiteboard video you can find more information about all of our research and all the information about these technologies at wiki bond com and again if you want to follow me again my name is brian grace lee i'm at be grace lee on twitter or you can follow at wiki bon on twitter as well thank you and have a great day