>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Hello everybody, welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage. We go out to the events. Of course, in this case we do so virtually, to extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Vellante and now we're going to talk about the intersection of business success and sustainability. It's hot topic. We have a great panel for you. With me are Ally Karmali, Sustainability and Climate Practice Lead at IBM Canada. Lucy Baunay is a Senior Consultant in Customer Experience and Sustainability Strategy, also from IBM Canada, and Keric Morris, Executive Partner, Enterprise Strategy Global Energy and Sustainability Lead, IBM UK. Folks, welcome to the panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Maybe Lucy, you could kick it off to talk about what is sustainability and how has it all of a sudden become such a hot topic amongst leadership? >> Yeah, sure. So first off, it's actually my pleasure that sustainability has finally become a trendy topic, and is now a key imperative in the business world. The pandemic really played a role in it, as it made people realize that there's an intricate link between global scale events, like the climate crisis, leading to the acceleration of viruses spreads and their own personal health or of their business. So sustainability really means that you're addressing the needs of the present without compromising the needs of future generations. To do so, companies use different frameworks and standards including ESG, standing for environmental, social, and governance criteria to really assess their progress on their journey to sustainability. It comes with many metrics that they track, or should track and choose to disclose for the greater benefit of all. One prerequisite I'd say to really building a successful sustainable company, is really the need for a new form of leadership style. One that is purpose driven, that really focuses on doing well, while doing the right thing. And I mean, you might need examples here to illustrate what I'm saying. You could take a Unilever, and the really radical transformation of the Palm oil industry they're leading. If Unilever did nothing, serious risk would really be posed in a few years on their whole business. So, the company has started working with all actors across its value chain, from training farmers, to building alliances with competitors and stakeholders. And you know, what Unilever is doing for the palm industry is actually cementing its reputation as an innovator. And they're already reaping the benefits of having, you know, being first movers. >> Dave: Right. Kerick, Lucy talked about an imperative, so take away there, it's not a checkbox, it's something that's sort of designed in. I wonder if you could, you could talk to that. >> Yeah. And I mean, sustainability at the end of the day now, it's built into every decision every process, every system, and you know, and leadership role in that space is about, you know, kind of developing new corporate strategies, new cultures, new approaches, which are around, you know, actually how do I sort of do this? This it's a real paradigm shift. It's not, it's not something you add to your business. It's something that needs to be core to your business. And then, you know, and that's requiring us to kind of re-imagining how we sort of go to work, how we do business, the processes, developing new products, leveraging new technologies. It's putting all of those pieces in and sort of making them work. And, and the key part of that is how do you do this in a way where we're not forcing people to make a choice between sustainability and profitability. Sustainability and, you know, and a way of quality of life. So there's how you kind of build that into kind of the core products and services. And again, use that ingenuity to kind of develop those, and sort of develop the components that you need to as part of that process. The other part of this is then sort of getting into, well actually from a leadership perspective, now how do I then change, and the way that I sort of work with with partners, with suppliers, with competitors. So it's, it's really fundamentally changing the way the business itself works as well. >> Dave: Yeah. Thank you. You know, Ally I, when I talk about ESG, I sometimes tongue in cheek say Milton Friedman's probably rolling over in his grave, cause he's the economist who said that the only job of a company is to make profits and drive shareholder value. And so that's a, I mean, that's a historical challenge, but there's, there's actually a business case for this. It's actually a good business. And we'll talk about that, but maybe you could address some of the challenges that organizations are facing to really lean in and address ESG. >> Yeah, that's right. You know, there are a lot of components that go into this. So then, as Lucy mentioned and Keric mentioned, the complexities that come with that, are a lot. They're significant. And so I'd say that the first challenge that I see is in regards to the alignment and integration of sustainability strategy within the organization's business model. So if we take a look at the typical life cycle, which includes sourcing, production, operations, distribution, and then end of life and recycling, each of these components must consider the conduits for driving positive social impact and environmental stewardship. But that also, as you said, drives opportunity and economic benefits for the organization. So these are components that could fall into three categories. The first one is what is the journey to net zero look like for you? How will I transform my operations, my strategy, my business models to achieve a net zero emission? What is circularity in the context of my business? How do I orchestrate for zero waste and include reuse regenerative processes restorative processes? And then how do I build in principles of sustainability into the design so that I integrate those components into the ways of working within this new world of sustainability that we're seeing? It's also the what and the how coming together to enable long-term value creation for the company. The second challenge that I see is around the performance monitoring and management. And as they say, you can't manage what you can't measure. And so many organizations might not have the complexity roadmap laid out for the systems and data that's required in order to enable a transparent and quality reporting. We think about data and knowing what you have, versus what you don't, data management, capturing and transforming that data, integrating that data in a way that has a simple but effective use of methodologies, as well as benchmarking. And then having a reporting system that allows you to see everything, almost a control tower of your E, your S, and your G. And then finally we see sustainability has become a board level priority. It is a hot topic, but it's not always properly understood below the board level. So senior executives sometimes approach the conformance to change in the way that we normally approach things like regulation. But I think in this case, it's quite, it's quite different. Because it is a bit of a shift to the person with a purpose, as the center leaders must lead, they must hire they must think design and share. You must meet the (indistinct) paradigms for diversity inclusion. And I think at the same time, encourage diversity, but also divergence where it needs to be. They have to have the head space to accept the truth, and the collaboration with all stakeholders. So I think there are ways for companies to do this and, and for them to be successful. And I think IBM is one of them >> Dave: For sure. And I think Keric, that sort of leads me to it from what Ally was saying about, you know, IBM, big company, has a big ecosystem. There are other large leaders within industry's that can leverage ecosystems, and then maybe set the tone and show the, point the way for the long tail of smaller companies. But maybe you could talk about that ecosystem flywheel. >> What we are also seeing is it's actually sort of quite a lot of differences between the way organizations are addressing this. And you are seen as leaders in this space. Then you ask these people, you're taking a stand around these components and actually trying to shape just not only what they do, but also what organizations do around them. Now, I mean, you know, and if you kind of look at this, there's almost kind of three categories to that, there are organizations that are sort of seeing this as an existential change, you know, if I'm looking at sort of mining, I'm looking at oil and gas I'm looking at travel and transport. Now what you're still seeing there is a fundamental shift in their business. That's requiring them to rethink how they do things in a very structured and actually quite an extended way. You know, if I'm looking at other organizations like retailers, it's actually a little less of of an existential change, it's more of an incremental one. But even so they still have to change all that they do, but they can do it in a, probably a more, staged approach. And then you've got influencers around that as well. So governments, financial services, players, et cetera, who are sort of shaping the agenda and who need help, and support around and thinking through how they kind of measure the change, how they sort of make sure the funding is seeing the right things, how they make, how they make sure they're actually still getting returns they expect. And actually, you know, the sustainability components are actually being driven by that. But I think that's, that's kind of sort sort of where an organization like IBM comes in. There's a lot of technical change in here. There's a lot of data change in here. And actually, these are the sorts of things that, you know, from a sustainability perspective are going to help to drive this in a more seamless and an achievable way, if you will. And so there's an awful lot that we're looking to try to do to enable that quickly to kind of take things off the shelf to, to rapidly test and to actually sort of show people both what, what can be done and the value that you then can create by sort of going down the sustainability journey. >> Okay, got it. Thank you. And Lucy, you touched on some examples at a high level in your opening remarks, and I'm interested in, kind of the starting point that you see companies, you know, taking and what's the right regime? I mean, you've got to put somebody, if somebody's going to be accountable for the measurements and the, and the, the cultural changes, but, but where do we start? >> Right. So one starting point is definitely to be looking at your data right? And, you know, it's, it's really tempting to forget when you're building products, or you're creating experiences, it's tempting to forget thinking about their repercussions on the environment, on communities, and on society. Their impact is, is made invisible for the sake of immediate user satisfaction, and short-term business value. And, you know, although 60% of executives consider sustainability to be an essential competitive advantage, 80% actually, other products ecological impacts are locked in at the design phase. So that's why, you know, with a team of four IBM superstars we've created the sustainable design thinking toolkit that was just launched and is in the process being integrated into the official IBM design thinking site. And that's really a great start, because it's meant to help design thinking practitioners take responsibility on making that impact visible from the very start of the process. And we've used it with multiple clients and for internal products and it's really helped infuse a sustainable mindset throughout the workflows. And, and actually from the very, very start of it. One recent example was in the CPG industry where we've applied our new sustainable design thinking activities to the problem at hand, to get consumers to recycle more by enhancing their recycling experience. And what it allowed us to do, is really to make sure that, you know, the prioritization process, as the first ideas that emerged, included sustainable value into the mix, so that the impact on the planet and communities wasn't a blind spot anymore. >> Dave : So, thank you for that Lucy, Keric I wonder, you know Lucy was talking about, you start with the data and that, that's cool. Sometimes, I get worried though, there's going to be analysis by paralysis and overthinking the strategy. Are there ways to, are there ways to get in and, and take smaller bites and iterate? What do, what are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there absolutely are, you know, with, with lots of organizations, they really have to kind of feel their way into this, this, this new approach. You know, you actually kind of have to learn both what sustainability means, but also sort of what it can deliver. So, you know, usually what we're sort of seeing is those organizations will start off with things which are under their control. So how can I change my manufacturing processes? How can I change some of the internal components of what it is that we do, to make them more sustainable, to, to reduce waste, to reduce sort of, kind of, the energy usage components, which associates with it, and those, that's quite a nice controlled starting point, using, you know, leveraging things like sort of manufacturing 4.0 intelligence processes, you know, (indistinct) sorry, Maximo Asset Management type approaches. The second step we're sort of seeing with lots of organizations. Is that they're then moving into, kind of their own ecosystem if you will. So, you know, actually, how do I manage my supply chain more effectively? How do I drive transparency? How do I, sort of also, drive efficiency and carbon management from that sort of perspective? but also, how do I sort of highlight the sustainable gains I'm making on my products and get those messages to customers and highlights of what we're doing with both new products and services, but also, with existing products and services. And then sort of your, your, kind of your final piece, then actually, this depends on, and it kind of goes back to what I was saying before, about what industry you're in, but, you know, a lot of industries are also having to, kind of, face the challenge of, I need to change fundamentally. You know, the business I'm in is not, not going to work the way it works in a sustainable world. So, so actually, how do I kind of build an ecosystem based approach? How do I kind of work with other partners? How do I kind of work with suppliers? How do I work with competitors? And actually, how do I build something at scale around a platform? And it will just be able to deliver these types of things? And at IBM, we've been kind of creating some of those, those platforms, and then scaling them quite rapidly, sort of across a variety of different sectors. >> Dave: Yeah, and that's where you're going to see the measurable impact. Ally, do you have a framework for what's, what a successful outcome looks like? Are there, are there companies that are sort of models of success? I mean, I think IBM is one of them, but maybe you could talk to that. >> Yeah. There are definitely companies to emulate, and companies have really started to think about the, the connection point between the value that's driven by their business model, as well as the effort and the impact that's being driven by their ESG, their ESG focus. And so, while there might be components of success, I think getting, getting it all together and all right is going to take time. And it's going to be a bit of a sequence. But a bit of a thought experiment, If you could sit into a boardroom, or at a senior level executive discussion, when you think about success, would you hear things or discussions around how the company is building the environmental and social inputs to its products and services? And what does that sound like? Are they tangible? Are they realistic? And what are the methods and the tools that they're using? Would you hear conversations about how the company is evaluating or infusing sustainability across the value chain from procurement all the way to end of life? Or how about the participation of the company into other ecosystems that's driving value into other industries? And we see the force multiplier effect that comes with that when, when companies partner together, because we are either vendors or providers, or consumers of every other product or service. And then I think lastly, would organizations start to think about how to generate value closer to home and how that value can be driven into communities, into where their employees are based. And those elements really, really improve the social elements. So what say lasts is there are elements of what good and success looks like when it comes to sustainability, but I think organizations can set their targets and meet industry benchmarks and frameworks which already exist and are really well established, but continuously increase their own targets to set better and more ambitious goals for themselves, to move beyond, to leverage technology, and be innovative and, and apply these, these tools and best practices in order to get there. And I think, and I think, I think we'll get there over time. So I'm really encouraged by the progress that we're seeing and, and, we hope at IBM to help accelerate that journey. >> Thank you. And Lucy, one of the things I'm excited about is the tech because this is where I think, you know, this business does meet sustainability. I mean, green tech, E.V. I mean, if I'm a nation, I want to be on top of that. If I'm a company, I think there's opportunities for invention and innovation. Can you talk about some of those innovative techs that we're likely to see? >> Right. Well, yeah, to piggy back on what Alex was just saying, and, you know, I think success can, can come in very different ways and forms, you know, be it creating entirely new business models, like, you know, some clients we help in the oil and gas industry, taking really bold commitments to shift to energy, electric energy. Or, you know significantly cutting costs such as, you know, those brands in the CPG industry that are doing amazing things to optimize their supply chains and make them more efficient, more transparent, more secure. Or, you know also protecting brand reputation and mitigating risks, or gaining market share by creating, differentiating value. You might've heard about L'Oreal taking really bold moves, and switching all their products to 95% renewable plant sources and circular processes. You know, it, it, can also be about capturing value, by charging a premium for sustainable products. Think about Tesla or whole foods, for example. I mean there's so many great examples out there already. >> Dave: Excellent. So we got to wrap it, so my last question, and I want to start with Ally, and then we'll go to Keric, and then Lucy, you can bring us home. Talk about why, you were talking about ESG reporting and transparency, and how it's, you know, great for the future and the economy and so forth. Why is this not going to be a fad? Why is it going to be sustainable? The sustainability, the sustainability of sustainable. Ally, please kick it off. And then we'll go to Keric and then Lucy >> You're right. You know, this is a big change for organizations. And I think naturally they're, you know, they're corporate social responsibility and, and, sustainability reports have really been externally focused. And I think that has been a great step in the right direction, but I think what's happening now is, is this convergence of sustainable material and transparent reporting, that is equivalent to material financial reporting that we're seeing. And, and eventually I think the end goal would be to be able to read a sustainable report and understand, and quantify, as well as qualify how much impact is an organization making year to year? And what are some of the initiatives that's driving what we have begun to see as a sustainable business strategy that is also a competitive advantage for organizations. So I think, the, the benefit in the long-term is going to create a lot of value for not just the shareholder but for the stakeholders like employees, like the communities in which these companies operate, like regulatory agencies, as well as municipal, federal governments, and state governments. So I think this is a step in the right direction for providing a very clear direction on their sustainable initiatives. >> Dave: Thank you. Thank you, Ally. Keric, could you weigh in here please? >> Yeah, I mean, I agree with all Ally said there, and I think with the stakeholders, the end of the day, this, this is a collective responsibility. You know, we have one planet, one rock we all live on, and we all need to be part of the process of actually sort of making it, making a change. And, and, you can't, you can't sort of change what you can't measure. So they're kind of holding people to account being able to share sort of the data that we've got, making sure everybody understands what the position is, how we're contributing and the role that we're actually still playing, is going to be an incredibly important part of collectively coming together, then making this change happen, and making this change happen quickly. Which is what it needs to do. >> Dave: Hey, Lucy, your passion shines through here. So it's appropriate that you, you close it out. >> Yeah, well, it all comes down to, you know, do you want your business to still exist in a hundred years from now? And you know, it does require courage and determination, but we all have it in ourselves. You know, trying to find the ways that we can change things for the greater good, find the energy in yourself to inspire others to act. That's why, you know, leaders with purpose and ingenuity are so, so, important today. Thank you. >> Folks, thanks so much for the perspectives you guys doing a great work. Really appreciate your time on the Cube today. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right. It's been our pleasure and thank you for watching. This is the Cube's coverage of IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. We'll be right back. (cheerful music)

>>from around the >>globe. >>It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >>Hello buddy. Welcome back to I didn't think 28 21 this is the cubes ongoing coverage. We go out to the events of course, in this case we do so virtually to extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Volonte and now we're gonna talk about the intersection of business success and sustainability. It's hot topic. We have a great panel for you with me, our ali Carr molly, sustainability and climate practice lead at IBM Canada lucy Bonet is a senior consultant and customer experience and sustainability strategy. Also from IBM Canada and Carrick Morris. Executive Partner, Enterprise Strategy. Global Energy and sustainability lead. IBM UK folks welcome to the panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe lucy, you could kick it off to talk about what is sustainability and how has it all of a sudden becomes such a hot topic amongst leadership? >>Yeah. Sure. Um So first off it's actually my pleasure that sustainability has finally become a trendy topic and is now a key imperative in the business world. Um The pandemic really played a role in it as it made people realize uh that there's an intricate link between global scale events like the climate crisis leading to the acceleration of viruses spread and their own personal health or of their business. So sustainability really means that you're addressing the needs of the present without compromising the needs of future generations to do so. Companies use different frameworks uh and and standards including E. S. G. Standing for environmental social and governance criteria to really assess their progress on their journey to sustainability. It comes with many metrics that they track or should track and choose to disclose for the greater benefit of all. Um One prerequisite I'd say to really building a successful sustainable company is really the need for a new form of leadership style, one that is the purpose driven that really focuses on doing well while doing the right thing. And I mean, you you might need uh examples here to illustrate what I'm saying. Um you can take uh union lever and the really radical transformation of the palm oil industry they're leading. Um if Unilever did nothing serious risk would really be posed in a few years on the whole business. So the company has started working with all actors across its value chain, from training farmers to building alliances with competitors and stakeholders. And you know what union lever is doing for the polymetal industry is actually cementing its reputation as an innovator and they're already reaping the benefits of having been first movers >>Carrick, uh lucy talked about an imperative, so take away there is not a checkbox, it's something that's sort of designed in. I wonder if you could, you could talk to that. >>Yeah, I mean sustainability at the end of the day now is built into every decision, every process, every system. Um and you know and leadership role in that space is about some kind of developing new corporate strategies, new cultures, new approaches which are around, you know, actually, how do I do this? It's a real paradigm shift, it's not it's not something you add to your business, it's something that needs to be called to your business and then you know, that's requiring us to kind of re imagining, you know, how we sort of go work, how we could help you do business? The process is developing new products, leveraging new technologies, it's putting all of those pieces in and sort of making them work and, you know, and the key part of it is how do you do this in a way where we're not forcing people to make a choice between sustainability and profitability, sustainability and you know, and in a way of quality of life. So that's how you kind of build that into kind of the core products and services and again use that ingenuity to kind of develop those and sort of developed, you know, the components that you need to as part of that process. And the other part of this is then getting into, well, actually from a leadership perspective, how do I then change and the way that I work with partners with suppliers, with competitors. So it's it's really fundamentally changing the way the business itself works as well. >>Thank you. Uh you know, ali when I talk about DSG I sometimes tongue in cheek say, Milton Friedman's probably rolling over in his grave because he's the the economist who said that the only job of a company is to make profits and drive shareholder value. And so that's, I mean that's a that's a that's a historical challenge. Uh But there's there's actually a business case for this. Uh It's actually good business and we'll talk about that. But maybe you could address some of the challenges that organizations are facing to really lean in and address. E. S. G. >>Yeah, that's right. You know, there are a lot of components to go into this and as lucy mentioned and Carrick mentioned the complexities that come with that are a lot of their significant. And so I'd say that the first challenge that I see is in regards to the alignment and integration of sustainability strategy within the organization's business model. So if we take a look at the typical life cycle which includes sourcing, production operations, distribution, and then end of life and recycling. Each of these components must consider the conduits for driving positive social impact and environmental stewardship, but that also as you said, drives opportunity and economic benefits for the organization. Um so these are components that could fall into three categories. The first one is what is the journey to net zero look like for you? How will I transform my operations, my strategy, my business models to achieve a net zero emission? What is circularity in the context of my business? How do I orchestrate for zero waste, include reuse regenerative processes, restorative processes, and then how do I build in principles of sustainability into the design, so that I integrate those components into the ways of working within this new world of sustainability that we're seeing. It's also the what and how coming together to enable long term value creation for the company. The second challenge that I see is around the performance monitoring and management and as they say, you can't manage what you can't measure and so many organizations might not have the complexity roadmap laid out for the systems and data that's required in order to enable transparent and quality reporting. We think about data knowing what you have versus what you don't um data management capturing and transform that data, integrating that data in a way that has a simple but effective use of methodologies as well as benchmarking and then having a reporting system that allows you to see everything almost a control tower of your E your S and your G. And then finally we see sustainability has become a board level priority. It is a hot topic but it's not always properly understood below the board level, so senior executives sometimes approach uh uh the the informants to change in the way that we normally approach things like regulation, but I think in this case it's quite it's quite different because it is a bit of a shift to the person with purpose as the center leaders must lead, they must hire, they must think design and share, they must meet the count paradigms for diversity inclusion. Um And I think at the same time encourage diversity, but also divergence where it needs to be, they have to have the headspace to accept the truth in the collaboration with all stakeholders. Um So I think there are ways for companies to do this and and and for them to be successful and I think I am is one of them >>uh for sure, and I think Carrick, that sort of leads me from what allie was saying about, you know, IBM big company has a big ecosystem. There are other large leaders within industry that can leverage ecosystems and it may be set the tone and show the point the way for the long tail of smaller companies. But maybe you could talk about that ecosystem flywheel. What >>we are saying is is actually sort of quite a lot of differences between the way organizations are addressing this and you are seeing some leaders in this space and you are seeing people who are taking a stand around around >>these components and actually trying to shape >>just not only what they do, but also what organizations do around them. Um I mean, you know if you kind of look at this, there's there's almost kind of three categories so that there are organizations that are sort of seeing this as an existential change. You know, if I'm looking at some mining and looking at oil and gas, I'm making your travel and transport, you know what you're still seeing, there is a fundamental shift in their business, requiring them to rethink how they do things in a very structured, um and actually quite an extended way. You know, if I'm looking at other organizations like retailers, it's actually a little less of uh an existential changes, that's more of an incremental one. But even so, they still have to change all that. They do that. They can do it in a probably a more staged approach and then you've got influences around that as well. So governments and financial services players, etcetera, who are sort of shaping the agenda and who need help and support around thinking through how they kind of measure the change, how they sort of make sure the financing the right things, and they make how they make sure they're actually getting returns they expect. And actually, the sustainability components are actually being driven by that. And I think that's that's kind of sort of where an organization like IBM comes in there, there's a lot of technical change in here, there's a lot of data change in here. And actually these are the sorts of things that, you know, from students sustainability perspective are going to help to to drive this in a more seamless and achievable way if you will. Um and so there's an awful lot that we're looking to try to do, to enable that quickly, to kind of take things off the shelf to rapidly test and to actually show people both what can be done and the value then can create by going down the sustainability journey. >>Okay. Got it. Thank you. And lucy you touched on some examples at a high level in your opening remarks. Uh and I'm interested in in kind of the starting point that you see cos you know taking uh and what's the right regime, I mean you've got to put somebody somebody's gonna be accountable for the measurements and the and the cultural changes. But but where do we start? >>Right. So one starting point is definitely uh to be looking at your data right? And uh you know it's it's really tempting to forget when you're building products or you're creating experiences. It's attempting to forget thinking about their repetitions on the environment, on communities and on society. Um Their impact is made invisible for the sake of immediate user satisfaction and short term business value. And you know although 60% of executives consider sustainability to be an essential competitive advantage, 80 actually of the products ecological impacts are locked in at the design phase. So, um that's why, you know, with with a team of four IBM superstars, um we've created the sustainable design thinking toolkit uh that was just launched and is in the process of being integrated into the official IBM design thinking uh site. And and that's really a great start because it's meant to help design thinking practitioners take responsibility on making that impact visible from the very start of the process. And we've used it with multiple clients and for internal projects. And, you know, it's really helped infuse a sustainable mindset throughout the workflows and and actually from the very, very start of it. Um one recent example was in the CPG industry where we've applied renew a sustainable design thinking activities to the problem at hand uh to get consumers to recycle more by enhancing their recycling experience. And what it allowed us to do is really to make sure that, you know, the prioritization process of the first ideas that emerged included sustainable value into the mix, so that the impact on the planet and communities wasn't a blind spot anymore. >>So, thank you for that. Uh Carrick, I wonder, you know, lucy was talking about you start with the data and that that's that's cool. I sometimes I get worried though there's going to be analysis by paralysis and overthinking the strategy. Are there ways to are there ways to get in and and and take smaller bites and iterate what what are your thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I mean, I think they're absolutely, and you know, with with lots of organizations, they really have to kind of feel their way into this, this, this new approach. You know, you actually kind of have to learn both what sustainability means, but also sort of what it can deliver. So, you know, usually what we're sort of seeing is these organizations will start to start off with things which are under their control, so how can I change my manufacturing processes? How can I change some of the internal components of what it is that we do to make them more sustainable to reduce waste, to reduce sort of kind of the energy usage components which are associated with. And that's that's quite a nice controlled starting point using leveraging things like manufacturing, 4.0, intelligent processes, massive, maximum maximum asset management type approaches. Um The second step we're sort of seeing with lots of organizations is that they then moving into kind of their own ecosystem if you will. So actually, how do I manage my supply chain more effectively? How do I drive transparency? How do I sort of also drive efficiency and and kind of carbon management from that sort of perspective. But also how do I sort of highlight the sustainable gains I'm making on my products and and get those messages to customers and highlights of what we're doing with both new products and services, but also with the existing products and services and then sort of your, your kind of your final piece. And actually this depends what kind of goes back to what I was saying before about what industry you're in. But, you know, a lot of industries are also having to kind of face the challenge of any to change fundamentally. You know, the business I'm in is not not going to work the way it works in a sustainable world. So, so actually, how do I kind of build an ecosystem based approach? How do I kind of work with other partners? How do I kind of work with suppliers? How do women competitors actually, how do I build something at scale around the platform in order to be able to deliver these types of things? And IBM, we've been kind of creating some of those, those platforms and then scaling them quite rapidly across a variety of different sectors >>and that's where you're gonna see the measurable impact. Ali do you have a framework for what was a successful outcome looks like? Are there are there companies that are sort of models of success? I mean, I think IBM is one of them, but maybe you could talk to that. >>Yeah, there are definitely companies to emulate, and companies have really started to think about the connection point between the value that's driven by their business model, as well as the effort and the impact that's being driven by there S g uh there? S you focus and so while there might be components of success, I think getting, getting it all together and all right is going to take time and it's going to be a bit of a sequence. Um but a bit of a thought experiment, if you could sit into a boardroom or at a senior level executive discussion when you think about success, would you hear things or discussions around how the company is building the environmental and social inputs to its products and services and what does that sound like? Are they tangible? Are they realistic? And what are the methods and the tools that they're using? Um Would you hear conversations about how the company is evaluating or infusing sustainability across the value chain from procurement all the way to end of life, or how about the participation of the company into other ecosystems that's driving value into other industries. And we see the force multiplier effect that comes with that when companies partner together because we are either vendors or providers or consumers of every other product or service. And then I think lastly, would organizations start to think about how to generate value closer to home and how that value can be driven into communities into where their employees are based and those elements really really improve the social elements. So let's say last is there are elements of what good and success looks like when it comes sustainability. Um but I think organizations can set their targets uh meat industry benchmarks and frameworks which already exist and are really well established um but continuously increase their own targets to set better and more ambitious goals for themselves to move beyond, to leverage technology and be innovative and and apply uh these these tools and best practices in order to get there. Uh And I think um and I think I think we'll get there over time, so I'm really encouraged by the progress that we're seeing. Uh and we hope that IBM to help accelerate that journey. >>Thank you and then lucy one of these, I'm excited about the tech because this is where I think, you know, business does meet sustainability mean green tech E. V. I mean, if if I'm a nation, I want to be on top of that. If I'm a company, I think there's opportunities for invention and innovation. Can you talk about some of those innovative texts that we're likely to see >>right? Um Well, yeah, but to pick you back on on what Allah is just saying and, you know, I think success can can come in very different ways and forms. Um you know, be it creating entirely new business models like, you know, some clients we help in the colon gas industry Taking really bold commitments to shift to energy, electric energy. Um or you know, significantly cutting costs such as, you know, those brands and the CPG industry that are doing amazing things to optimize their supply chains and make them more efficient, more transparent, more secure. Um or you know, also protecting brand reputation and mitigating risks or gaining market share by creating differentiating value. You might have heard about Loreal taking really bold moves and switching all their products to 95 renewable plant sources and circular processes. Um you know, it it can also be about capturing value by charging a premium for sustainable products. Think about Tesla or whole foods for example. I mean there's so many great examples out there already. >>Excellent. So we gotta wrap it. So, my last question and I'll start with ali and then we'll go to Carrick and lucy you can bring us home talk about why you were talking about STD reporting and transparency and how it's great for the future and in the economy and so forth. Why is this not gonna be a fad? Why is it going to be sustainable sustainability? The sustainability of sustainable uh please kick it off and then we'll go to karaoke and then lucy >>you're right. You know, this is a big change for organizations and I think naturally their uh their corporate social responsibility. Um and sustainability reports have really been externally focused and I think that has been a great step in the right direction. Um but I think what's happening now is is this convergence of sustainable material and transparent reporting that is equivalent to material financial reporting that we're seeing. And eventually I think the end goal would be to be able to read a sustainable report and understand and quantify as well as qualify how much impact is an organization making year to year. And what are some of the initiatives that's driving? What we have begun to see is a sustainable business strategy. That is also a competitive advantage for organizations. So I think the benefit in the long term is going to create a lot of value for not just the shareholder, but for the stakeholders like employees, like the communities in which these companies operate, like regulatory agencies as well as municipal, federal governments and state government. So I think this is a step in the right direction for providing a very clear direction on their sustainable initiatives. >>Thank you. Thank you. Ali Carrick, can you weigh in here, please? >>Yeah, I mean, I I agree with all that he said there and I think with the stakeholders and the end of the day this this is a collective responsibility. You know, we have one planet one rock we all live on and we all need to be part of the process of actually making it, making it change. And you can't you can't sort of change what you can't measure. So kind of holding people to account, being able to share some of the data that we've got, making sure everybody understands what the position is, how we're contributing um and and the role that we're actually still playing is going to be an incredibly important part of collectively coming together and making this change happen, and making this change happen quickly, which is what it needs to do >>and lucy your passion shines through here so it's appropriate that you close it out. >>Mhm. Yeah, well it all comes down to you know, do you want your business to still exist in 100 years from now and you know it does require courage and determination but we all have it in ourselves. Um you know, trying to find the ways that we can change things for the greater good, find the energy in yourself to inspire others to act. That's why you know, leaders with purpose and ingenuity are so so important today. Thank you >>folks. Thanks so much for the perspectives guys doing a great work, really appreciate your time on the cube today. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us >>All right, it's been our pleasure and thank you for watching. This is the cubes coverage of IBM think 2021, the virtual edition will be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from Stanford University. It's theCUBE, covering Stanford Women in Data Science 2020, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and welcome to theCUBE. I'm your host, Sonia Tagare. And we're live at Stanford University covering the fifth annual WiDS Women in Data Science Conference. Joining us today is Lucy Bernholz, who is the Senior Research Scholar at Stanford University. Lucy, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> So you've led the Digital Civil Society Lab at Stanford for the past 11 years. So tell us more about that. >> Sure, so the Digital Civil Society Lab actually exists because we don't think digital civil society exists. So let me take that apart for you. Civil society is that weird third space outside of markets and outside of government. So it's where we associate together, it's where we as people get together and do things that help other people could be the nonprofit sector, it might be political action, it might be the eight of us just getting together and cleaning up a park or protesting something we don't like. So that's civil society. But what's happened over the last 30 years really is that everything we use to do that work has become dependent on digital systems and those digital systems, some tier, I'm talking gadgets, from our phones, to the infrastructure over which data is exchanged. That entire digital system is built by companies and surveilled by governments. So where do we as people get to go digitally? Where we could have a private conversation to say, "Hey, let's go meet downtown and protest x and y, or let's get together and create an alternative educational opportunity 'cause we feel our kids are being overlooked, whatever." All of that information that get exchanged, all of that associating that we might do in the digital world, it's all being watched. It's all being captured (laughs). And that's a problem because both history and political science, history and democracy theory show us that when there's no space for people to get together voluntarily, take collective action, and do that kind of thinking and planning and communicating it just between the people they want involved in that when that space no longer exists, democracies fall. So the lab exists to try to recreate that space. And in order to do that, we have to first of all recognize that it's being closed in. Secondly, we have to make real technological process, we need a whole set of different kind of different digital devices and norms. We need different kinds of organizations, and we need different laws. So that's what the lab does. >> And how does ethics play into that. >> It's all about ethics. And it's a word I try to avoid actually, because especially in the tech industry, I'll be completely blunt here. It's an empty term. It means nothing the companies are using it to avoid being regulated. People are trying to talk about ethics, but they don't want to talk about values. But you can't do that. Ethics is a code of practice built on a set of articulated values. And if you don't want to talk about values, you don't really having conversation about ethics, you're not having a conversation about the choices you're going to make in a difficult situation. You're not having a conversation over whether one life is worth 5000 lives or everybody's lives are equal. Or if you should shift the playing field to account for the millennia of systemic and structural biases that have been built into our system. There's no conversation about ethics, if you're not talking about that thing and those things. As long as we're just talking about ethics, we're not talking about anything. >> And you were actually on the ethics panel just now. So tell us a little bit about what you guys talked about and what were some highlights. >> So I think one of the key things about the ethics panel here at WiDS this morning was that first of all started the day, which is a good sign. It shouldn't be a separate topic of discussion. We need this conversation about values about what we're trying to build for, who we're trying to protect, how we're trying to recognize individual human agency that has to be built in throughout data science. So it's a good start to have a panel about it, the beginning of the conference, but I'm hopeful that the rest of the conversation will not leave it behind. We talked about the fact that just as civil society is now dependent on these digital systems that it doesn't control. Data scientists are building data sets and algorithmic forms of analysis, that are both of those two things are just coated sets of values. And if you try to have a conversation about that, at just the math level, you're going to miss the social level, you're going to miss the fact that that's humanity you're talking about. So it needs to really be integrated throughout the process. Talking about the values of what you're manipulating, and the values of the world that you're releasing these tools into. >> And what are some key issues today regarding ethics and data science? And what are some solutions? >> So I mean, this is the Women and Data Science Conference that happens because five years ago or whenever it was, the organizers realize, "Hey, women are really underrepresented in data science and maybe we should do something about that." That's true across the board. It's great to see hundreds of women here and around the world participating in the live stream, right? But as women, we need to make sure that as you're thinking about, again, the data and the algorithm, the data and the analysis that we're thinking about all of the people, all of the different kinds of people, all of the different kinds of languages, all of the different abilities, all of the different races, languages, ages, you name it that are represented in that data set and understand those people in context. In your data set, they may look like they're just two different points of data. But in the world writ large, we know perfectly well that women of color face a different environment than white men, right? They don't work, walk through the world in the same way. And it's ridiculous to assume that your shopping algorithm isn't going to affect that difference that they experience to the real world that isn't going to affect that in some way. It's fantasy, to imagine that is not going to work that way. So we need different kinds of people involved in creating the algorithms, different kinds of people in power in the companies who can say we shouldn't build that, we shouldn't use it. We need a different set of teaching mechanisms where people are actually trained to consider from the beginning, what's the intended positive, what's the intended negative, and what is some likely negatives, and then decide how far they go down that path? >> Right and we actually had on Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, from Accenture. And she's really big in data ethics. And she brought up the idea that just because we can doesn't mean that we should. So can you elaborate more on that? >> Yeah well, just because we can analyze massive datasets and possibly make some kind of mathematical model that based on a set of value statements might say, this person is more likely to get this disease or this person is more likely to excel in school in this dynamic or this person's more likely to commit a crime. Those are human experiences. And while analyzing large data sets, that in the best scenario might actually take into account the societal creation that those actual people are living in. Trying to extract that kind of analysis from that social setting, first of all is absurd. Second of all, it's going to accelerate the existing systemic problems. So you've got to use that kind of calculation over just because we could maybe do some things faster or with larger numbers, are the externalities that are going to be caused by doing it that way, the actual harm to living human beings? Or should those just be ignored, just so you can meet your shipping deadline? Because if we expanded our time horizon a little bit, if you expand your time horizon and look at some of the big companies out there now, they're now facing those externalities, and they're doing everything they possibly can to pretend that they didn't create them. And that loop needs to be shortened, so that you can actually sit down at some way through the process before you release some of these things and say, in the short term, it might look like we'd make x profit, but spread out that time horizon I don't know two x. And you face an election and the world's largest, longest lasting, stable democracy that people are losing faith in. Set up the right price to pay for a single company to meet its quarterly profit goals? I don't think so. So we need to reconnect those externalities back to the processes and the organizations that are causing those larger problems. >> Because essentially, having externalities just means that your data is biased. >> Data are biased, data about people are biased because people collect the data. There's this idea that there's some magic debias data set is science fiction. It doesn't exist. It certainly doesn't exist for more than two purposes, right? If we could, and I don't think we can debias a data set to then create an algorithm to do A, that same data set is not going to be debiased for creating algorithm B. Humans are biased. Let's get past this idea that we can strip that bias out of human created tools. What we're doing is we're embedding them in systems that accelerate them and expand them, they make them worse (laughs) right? They make them worse. So I'd spend a whole lot of time figuring out how to improve the systems and structures that we've already encoded with those biases. And using that then to try to inform the data science we're going about, in my opinion, we're going about this backwards. We're building the biases into the data science, and then exporting those tools into bias systems. And guess what problems are getting worse. That so let's stop doing that (laughs). >> Thank you so much for your insight Lucy. Thank you for being on theCUBE. >> Oh, thanks for having me. >> I'm Sonia Tagare, thanks for watching theCUBE. Stay tuned for more. (upbeat music)

>>Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Cubes. Coverage of Mongo db World 2022. This is the first Mongo live mongo DB World. Since 2019, the Cube has covered a number of of mongo shows actually going back to when the company was called Engine. Some of you may recall Margo since then has done an i p o p o in 2017, it's It's been a rocket ship company. It's up. It'll probably do 1.2 billion in revenue this year. It's got a billion dollars in cash on the balance sheet. Uh, despite the tech clash, it's still got a 19 or $20 million valuation growing above 50% a year. Uh, company just had a really strong quarter, and and there seems to be hitting on all cylinders. My name is Dave Volonte. And here to kick it off with me as Sanjeev Mohan, who was the principal at Sanremo. So great to see you. You become a wonderful cube contributor, Former Gartner analyst. Really sharp? No, the database space in the data space generally really well, so thanks for coming back on >>you. You know, it's just amazing how exciting. The entire data space is like they used to say. Companies are All companies are software companies. All companies are data >>companies, >>so data has become the the foundation. >>They say software is eating the world. Data is eating software and a little little quips here. But this is a good size show. Four or 5000 people? I don't really know exactly. You know the numbers, but it's exciting. And of course, a lot of financial services were here at the Javits Centre. Um, let's let's lay down the basics for people of Mongo, DB is a is a document database, but they've been advancing. That's a document database as an alternative to R D. B M s. Explain that, but explain also how Mongo has broadened its capabilities and serving a lot more use cases. >>So that's my forte is like databases technology. But before even I talk about that, I have to say I am blown away by this mongo db world because mongo db uh, in beckons to all of us during the pandemic has really come of age, and it's a billion dollar company. Now we are in this brand new Javits Centre That's been built during the pandemic. And and now the company is holding this event the high 1000 people last year. So I think this company has really grown. And why has it drawn is because its offerings have grown to more developers than just a document database document databases. Revolution revolutionised the whole DBM s space where no sequel came up. Because for a change, you don't need a structured schema. You could start bringing data in this document model scheme, uh, like varying schema. But since then, they've added, uh, things like such. So they have you seen such? They added a geospatial. They had a time series last year, and this year they keep adding more and more so like, for example, they are going to add some column store indexes. So from being a purely transactional, they are now starting to address analytical. And they're starting to address more use cases, like, you know, uh, like what? What was announced this morning at keynote was faceted search. So they're expanding the going deeper and deeper into these other data >>structures. Taking Lucy made a search of first class citizens, but I want to ask you some basic questions about document database. So it's no fixed schemes. You put anything in there? Actually, so more data friendly. They're trying to simplify the use of data. Okay, that's that's pretty clear. >>What are the >>trade offs of a document database? >>So it's not like, you know, one technology has solved every problem. Every technology comes with its own tradeoffs. So in a document, you basically get rid of joining tables with primary foreign keys because you can have a flexible schemer and so and wouldn't sing single document. So it's very easy to write and and search. But when you have a lot of repeated elements and you start getting more and more complex, your document size can start expanding quite a bit because you're trying to club everything into a single space. So So that is where the complexity goes >>up. So what does that mean for for practitioner, it means they have to think about what? How they how they are ultimately gonna structure, how they're going to query so they can get the best performances that right. So they're gonna put some time in up front in order to make it pay back at the tail end, but clearly it's it's working. But is that the correct way of thinking about >>100% in, uh, the sequel world? You didn't care about the sequel. Analytical queries You just cared about how your data model was structured and then sequel would would basically such any model. But in the new sequel world, you have to know your patterns before you. You invest into the database so it's changed that equation where you come in knowing what you are signing up. >>So a couple of questions, if I can kind of Colombo questions so to Margo talks about how it's really supporting mission critical applications and at the same time, my understanding is the architecture of mongo specifically, or a document database in general. But specifically, you've got a a primary, uh, database, and you and that is the sort of the master, if you will, right and then you can create secondaries. But so help me square the circle between mission critical and really maybe a more of a focus on, say, consistency versus availability. Do customers have to sort of think about and design in that availability? How do they do that? How a Mongol customers handling that. >>So I have to say, uh, my experience of mongo db was was that the whole company, the whole ethos was developed a friendly. So, to be honest, I don't think Mongo DB was as much focused on high availability, disaster, recovery, even security. To some extent, they were more focused on developer productivity. >>And you've experienced >>simplicity. Make it simple, make the developers productive as fast as you can. What has really, uh, was an inflexion point for Mongo DB was the launch of Atlas because the atlas they were able to introduce all of these management features and hide it abstracted from the end users. So now they've got, you know, like 2014 is when Atlas came out and it was in four regions. But today they're in 100 regions, so they keep expanding, then every hyper scale cloud provider, and they've abstracted that whole managed. >>So Atlas, of course, is the managed database as a service in the cloud. And so it's those clouds, cloud infrastructure and cloud tooling that has allowed them to go after those high available application. My other question is when you talk about adding search, geospatial time series There are a lot of specialised databases that take time series persons. You have time series specialists that go deep into time series can accompany like Mongo with an all in one strategy. Uh, how close can they get to that functionality? Do they have to be? You know, it's kind of a classic Microsoft, you know, maybe not perfect, but good enough. I mean, can they compete with those other areas? Uh, with those other specialists? And what happens to those specialists if the answer is yes. What's your take on that? If that question >>makes sense So David, this is not a mongo db only issue This is this is an issue with, you know, anytime serious database, any graph database Should I put a graph database or should I put a multifunctional database multidimensional database? And and I really think there is no right or wrong answer. It just really comes down to your use case. If you have an extremely let's, uh, complex graph, you know, then maybe you should go with best of breed purpose built database. But more and more, we're starting to see that organisations are looking to simplify their environment by going in for maybe a unified database that has multiple data structures. Yeah, well, >>it's certainly it's interesting when you hear Mongo speak. They don't They don't call out Oracle specifically, but when they talk about legacy r d m r d B m s that don't scale and are complex and are expensive, they're talking about Oracle first. And of course, there are others. Um, And then when they talk about, uh, bespoke databases the horses for courses, databases that they show a picture of that that's like the poster child for Amazon. Of course, they don't call out Amazon. They're a great partner of Amazon's. But those are really the sort of two areas that mangoes going after, Um, now Oracle. Of course, we'll talk about their converged strategy, and they're taking a similar approach. But so help us understand the difference. There is just because they're sort of or close traditional r d B M s, and they have all the drawbacks associated with that. But by the way, there are some benefits as well. So how do you see that all playing >>out? So you know it. Really, uh, it's coming down to the the origins of these databases. Uh, I think they're converging to a point where they are offering similar services. And if you look at some of the benchmark numbers or you talk to users, I from a business point of view, I I don't think there's too much of a difference. Uh, technology writes. The difference is that Mongo DB started in the document space. They were more interested in availability rather than consistency. Oracle started in the relation database with focus on financial services, so asset compliance is what they're based on. And since then they've been adding other pieces, so so they differ from where they started. Oracle has been in the industry for some since 19 seventies, so they have that maturity. But then they have that legacy, >>you know, I love. Recently, Oracle announced the mongo db uh, kpi. So basically saying why? Why leave Oracle when you can just, you know, do the market? So that, to me, is a sign that Mongo DB is doing well because the Oracle calls you out, whether your workday or snowflake or mongo. You know, whoever that's a sign to me that you've got momentum and you're stealing share in that marketplace, and clearly Mongo is they're growing at 50 plus percent per year. So thinking about the early I mentioned 10 gen Early on, I remember that one of the first conferences I went to mongo conferences. It was just It was all developers. A lot of developers here as well. But they have really, since 2014, expanded the capabilities you talk about, Atlas, you talked about all these other you know, types of databases that they've added. If it seems like Mongo is becoming a platform company, uh, what are your thoughts on that in terms of them sort of up levelling the message there now, a billion dollar plus company. What's the next? You know, wave for Mongo. >>So, uh, Oracle announced mongo db a p i s a W s has document d. B has cost most db so they all have a p. I compatible a p. I s not the source code because, you know, mongo DB has its own SPL licence, so they have written their own layer on top. But at the end of the day, you know, if you if you these companies have to keep innovating to catch up with Mongo DB because we can announce a brand new capability, then all these other players have to catch up. So other cloud providers have 80% or so of capabilities, but they'll never have 100% of what Mongo DB has. So people who are diehard Mongo DB fans they prefer to stay on mongo db. They are now able to write more applications like you know, mongo DB bought realm, which is their front end. Uh, like, you know, like, if you're on social media kind of thing, you can build your applications and sink it with Atlas. So So mongo DB is now at a point where they are adding more capabilities that more like developers like, You know, five G is coming. Autonomous cars are coming, so now they can address Iot kind of use cases. So that's why it's becoming such a juggle, not because it's becoming a platform rather than a single document database. >>So atlases, the near the midterm future. Today it's about 60% of revenues, but they have what we call self serve, which is really the traditional on premise stuff. They're connecting those worlds. You're bringing up the point that. Of course, they go across clouds. You also bring up the point that they've got edge plays. We're gonna talk to Verizon later on today. And they're they've got, uh, edge edge activity going on with developers. I I call it Super Cloud. Right, This layer that floats above. Now, of course, a lot of the super Cloud concert says we're gonna hide the underlying complexity. But for developers, they wanna they might want to tap those primitives, so presumably will let them do that. But But that hybrid that what we call Super Cloud that is a new wave of innovation, is it not? And do you? Do you agree with that? And do you see that as a real opportunity from Mongo in terms of penetrating a new tan? >>Yes. So I see this is a new opportunity. In fact, one of the reasons mongo DB has grown so quickly is because they are addressing more markets than they had three pandemic. Um, Also, there are all gradations of users. Some users want full control. They want an eye as kind of, uh, someone passed. And some businesses are like, you know, we don't care. We don't want to deal with the database. So today we heard, uh, mongo db. Several went gear. So now they have surveillance capability, their past. But if you if you're more into communities, they have communities. Operator. So they're addressing the full stack of different types of developers different workloads, different geographical regions. So that that's why the market is expected. >>We're seeing abstraction layers, you know, throughout the started a physical virtual containers surveillance and eventually SuperClubs Sanjeev. Great analysis. Thanks so much for taking your time to come with the cube. Alright, Keep it right there. But right back, right after this short break. This is Dave Volonte from the Javits Centre. Mongo db World 2022. Thank you. >>Mm.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE, with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Today I have a new guest, new to theCUBE, Madhuri Chawla. The Director of Strategic Partnerships for Enterprise Application Services, is joining me. Madhuri, it's nice to have you on the program. >> Thank you Lisa, very excited to be here. And hello everyone. >> So different this year again, virtual like last year, we're going to talk about digital transformation. We saw this huge acceleration in 2020 the massive adoption of SAS applications. We want to to talk though about IBM Managed Services for SAP applications. So before we get into that, I'd love for you to be able to describe what your role is to our audience. >> Absolutely Lisa, so good day everyone, I've been with IBM for over 23 years. And my current role, I run the strategic alliances for IBM basically in the ERP space. SAP being our primary strategic partner. I have a global team of architects and we basically look at market requirements, talk to a lot of customers talk to our business partner SAP obviously, you know try to help them with come up with a solution for their transformation journey to the cloud. And hopefully today, you know we'll elaborate a little bit more on the exact walk that we do in this space. So very happy to be here. Thank you Lucy. >> Sure, so we're going to dissect the IBM SAP relationship. I think you even worked at SAP before your 23-year tenure at IBM. So we'll get to some of that as well, but help us understand, customers have so much choice, each day there's more and more choice. Why should a customer choose IBM as their strategic partner for this digital transformation journey? >> Well, really IBM has been in this SAP business for many, many decades, as you know. We have many, many certified people in SAP, close to 40,000 people actually globally. And we can help the clients in various aspects of their journey. So, you know, the typical cloud journey has four different aspects to it. You will need the advice. So you need basically systems integration services to help customers actually define the scope on you know, what they actually want to either upgrade, bring it to current as well as you know what workloads they want to move to the cloud. We can help customers with our systems integration services called the Global Business Services in IBM. We can help them with their entire planning. We can help them with the actual move to the cloud. So IBM offers a whole different variety of services for migration. Well, not only just the SAP workloads, I mean SAP typically ends up being the heart of the workloads than any of the major customers run, but surrounding SAP there's a lot of other applications so we can help plan that entire journey for advice and then, you know move it as well as in the interim, you know there's also another step which can be some customers that need to build net new, and you know, upgrade their applications to the latest technologies. So we can help them with that. And then once the build and move is over, obviously customers need help with the actual steady state run state environment. That's where this key service that we have Managed Services for SAP applications helps them. So our certifications with SAP and the fact that we have consultants that are certified in all these different aspects of the journey, can really help your clients. The other part I would say that IBM is really a hybrid cloud provider. So obviously we have our cloud service the IBM Cloud, but we can offer this service meeting the customer where they need to be. So we are a client centric service. So if the customer has a choice of AWS or Azure we can meet them there. So this is how, you know we can really help our customers with our expertise. Another data point to note that, you know, 70, 80% of the enterprise customers still have not moved their workloads to the cloud. So this is a space, especially with COVID as you've seen what's happened. You know, customers now are really really looking to accelerate the journey because it's become a necessity. It's no longer something that a CEO and CIO can push to the right, right? This is something they have to act now. So IBM with all these various services specifically geared in the SAP area. And given that we've been managing these production workloads for a lot of these enterprise customers on our cloud services for many, many years we have the experience. We can truly help them with their journey. >> And as you said, that's so critical these days. One of the things that I think we learned in 2020 is there was no time like the present. It really became such a massive shift that for business survival, those that weren't digitized, definitely were in some hot water. But talk to me so you talked about the IBM, SAP relationship being longstanding. Can you talk to me about the different aspects of the alliance and how that helps you guys to meet customers where they are? >> Sure, so SAP and IBM, we've been strategic partners for over 46 years, that's a long time. The partnership obviously has evolved over the years and I'll talk about, you know, a few of the different aspects where we've been partners. You know, the alliance initially obviously started you know, IBM is in multiple businesses as you know, we are one of the largest systems integrators in the world From a global business services point of view. As well as one of the largest application managed services providers. So that's, you know, part of the alliance. Then we have our server groups, the power systems that IBM has. So that's another dimension of the alliance where you know, 5, 6,000 plus SAP clients even today are still running their SAP applications on the power systems, whether it's on-premise or also in some of the cloud deployment models. Historically, we also had obviously the database Db2 alliance, but now with the SAP's move to HANA. That's kind of little bit of a mute point, obviously it still exists but most of the clients are now obviously being encouraged really to adopt SAP's latest S/4HANA. From the services standpoint, the other facet is really around the cloud services. So that's really our topic today, right? In the cloud services area, we have alliances with SAP, very very strong alliances that have existed for you know, almost a decade now. As I said, we've been managing the production workloads for very, very large customers in many different industries, their entire supply chains HR financial systems are running on IBM, either in the old traditional hosting models or also in our cloud models for the past 10 plus years, right, as IBM has evolved. So we have made sure that we do a whole different types of certifications with SAP to stay current. Many of these certifications are done either, you know every two years, some are done every year. And if anyone checks, you know the SAP service marketplace website, which is owned by SAP you can see IBM listed in all these different angles as a certified provider. There isn't another provider that can claim this breadth in terms of certifications that IBM has done. And that's why customers can benefit either from one or two of these services that IBM provides or obviously a combination as a single vendor, if the customer needs. So, you know we have the sets we have the credibility, we have decades of you know, delivery excellence in these areas, servicing these clients. Lots of the Fortune 100 customers actually are running their SAP workloads on the IBM systems, whether in traditional hosting or in a hybrid cloud deployment. some cases we're actually providing services for customers that run their SAP workloads on-premise. So we cater to that, you know, sets of clients as well. And then of course, others that are purely on our cloud, IBM cloud, as well as hyperscalers. Yeah. >> So long list of certifications, that seems to be one of the biggest differentiators that you talked about. Talk to me a little bit about how things have evolved over the last, you know, 12 to 18 months in terms of how has IBM's focus changed for hybrid cloud with SAP? >> Yeah, so the focus changed, you know until last year, we were called the cloud and cognitive company. This year of course the whole company has changed and we're going through a major transformation at the moment. We are the Hybrid Cloud Company now, and that name change means a lot. It means a lot in the sense that it gives choices to the customer. That's what the whole mission is all about. We want to make sure that customers are consuming IBM services and IBM wants to meet them where they want to be. So there's, you know, flexibility of choices in terms of hybrid in a cloud deployment model. So most customers in the SAP area you know, they're looking for either just a pure private cloud deployment or they're looking for a Puppet cloud deployment or a combination. And some are because, you know their SAP's footprint sizes are so large. Think about the multinational global companies, you know and then they operate in so many different regions of the world and their data sizes of their databases are so large. Perhaps you know the public cloud really isn't a good fit. Yet these customers are looking to move some sort of their workloads to the cloud. So that's where this hybrid cloud helps them because customers, you know, 90 plus percent of the clients today are really not choosing one hyperscaler as their deployment option. They're really looking at multiple. So because they're running their workloads not just SAP, but everything else, you know SAP always brings along a whole bunch of other applications like tax applications and other interfaces, homegrown applications analytics that the customers are using. So if you want to take advantage of the true hybrid cloud and the benefits of all the various deployments and hyperscalers available in that region, really the hybrid cloud strategy from IBM is a perfect fit. Because we give them choices of deployment. We're not saying that you have to deploy an IBM cloud. We're saying you can deploy either on-premise, AWS, Azure IBM cloud, really what makes sense, you know, best sense for the types of workloads that the customer is looking at. So that's how the strategy for IBM has completely changed to meet the clients you know, for what they're actually looking for. >> Talk to me a little bit about the go-to-market. So IBM and SAP, long-standing decades-old relationship lot of certifications that you talked about. We're talking about business critical applications. You mentioned supply chain a minute ago and I can't help, but think of how supply chain has been affected in the last year. What is the go-to-market approach with respect to providing consultation services to help customers determine, should we migrate to what hyperscaler and how and when? >> Yeah, so we can help them with that. So hybrid hyperscalers, obviously, you know IBM has been listed for example, as the leader in Gartner 2020. And you know there's lots of other stats that show them that IBM is a leader in application services, in consulting services, application management services as well as managed services. So these are all different, right? And you can see us being listed as a leader either it's in Gartner or IDC or Forrester Wave, and for many reasons. And you know, IBM actually has one series of pinnacle awards from SAP over the years. How this helps the clients really determine is that you know, IBM obviously does a lot of studies externally. We have internal as well as external facing views of comparatives of the various hyperscalers, you know including AWS Azure or GCP and so on. So when a customer comes to us for asking for advice and so on, we basically look at our own intellectual properties all the analysis that has been done. And more importantly, we look at the full scope of services that the customer is doing. What sort of a business are they in? We have industry experts there's ERP strategy folks within IBM. So, you know, they go off for a certain industry. And when they let's say, you know, they've gone off to the oil and gas industry, for example, they will look at multiple customers in that particular space. So based on their experiences, we can actually define the right roadmap for the client to be able to help them to move their workloads to this hybrid cloud strategy that I just mentioned right? So that's how we can help them because we have the expertise in that industry as well. >> And I'm curious, Madhuri in the last year, with so much flux and rapidly changing market conditions did you see any one or two industries in particular really leading the charge here and coming to IBM, SAP for help on this transformation journey which hasn't been accelerated by a couple of years? >> Certainly the retail industry, for sure, right? I mean, in spite of the crisis I think the retail industry did pretty well right? Because people still had to buy stuff. Of course the whole buying behavior changed no question. You and I, don't know about you, Lisa but for me, you know, I was never a major online shopper now I am, you know I buy just about everything. Previously it used to be select things here and there but now it's totally changed, right? So that industry certainly has accelerated no question. We've had a lot of those coming. The other industries that I've seen the change in the last 12, 18 months is really for for example you know the banking industry and so on. IBM basically, you know launched a lot of services in the financial services sector for this reason. So those are of course transforming very fast to keep up with the market. And I'm sure there's others, right. But these are the two that come to mind yeah. >> Yeah, two that have been most affected and needed to pivot so quickly in addition to healthcare. Let me ask you one final question here, before we wrap. Talk to me about the advantages of using the PMC Partner Managed Cloud SAP License resell model the advantages of using that and the benefits. >> Sure, so you know so far our discussion was really focused around, you know the various service capabilities that IBM has in terms of our capabilities for helping clients with hyperscalers and hybrid cloud. We also need to spend a little bit of time, you know talking about the operations model, right? So when they're running their production workloads on IBM PMC is yet another dimension. So what PMC, Partner Managed Cloud is really some very limited partnerships that SAP does. And IBM is the lead on that one. In this space, what SAP allows is the partner, which in this case is IBM to resell the SAP software license to a customer. So IBM has the rights globally to resell the license. And why is that beneficial to the client? Because now IBM can actually turn around the SAP license and have the customer pay us in a SAS model. So it basically is now an OPEX model where the customer is basically paying, you know a monthly fee as an example. So there's no upfront cost to the client and they basically pay IBM and then IBM pays SAP. So IBM is kind of holding the risk, if you will, on behalf of the customer it gives customers more choices, more flexibilities better pricing approach. So if the customer wants as an example to buy everything the full package, including systems implementation services, deployment models, with choices you know, on a cloud, whether it's IBM cloud or others as well as the license itself IBM has this end-to-end capability today. We've been selling it to several clients for a few years in several geographies right? So that's really the advantage behind it. >> Got it, excellent, thanks for breaking that down Madhuri. And joining me today, talking about what's new with IBM and SAP, the opportunities for customers to accelerate their digital transformation. We appreciate you stopping by. >> Thank you very much Lisa, I truly enjoyed it, thank you. >> Good me too. For Madhuri Chawla, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to The Great Cloud Debate. I'm your moderator Rachel Dines. I'm joined by two debaters today Corey Quinn, Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group and Stu Miniman, Senior Analyst and Host of theCube. Welcome Corey and Stu, this when you can say hello. >> Hey Rachel, great to talk to you. >> And it's better to talk to me. It's always a pleasure to talk to the fine folks over at CloudHealth at by VMware and less of the pleasure to talk to Stu. >> Smack talk is scheduled for later in the agenda gentlemen, so please keep it to a minimum now to keep us on schedule. So here's how today is going to work. I'm going to introduce a debate topic and assign Corey and Stu each to a side. Remember, their assignments are what I decide and they might not actually match their true feelings about a topic, and it definitely does not represent the feelings of their employer or my employer, importantly. Each debater is going to have two minutes to state their opening arguments, then we'll have rebuttals. And each round you the audience gets to vote of who you think is winning. And at the end of the debate, I'll announce the winner. The prize is bragging rights of course, but then also we're having each debater play to win lunch for their local hospital, which is really exciting. So Stu, which hospital are you playing for? >> Yeah, so Rachel, I'm choosing Brigham Women's Hospital. I get a little bit of a home vote for the Boston audience here and was actually my wife's first job out of school. >> Great hospital. Very, very good. All right, Corey, what about you? >> My neighbor winds up being as specialist in infectious diseases as a doctor, and that was always one of those weird things you learn over a cocktail party until this year became incredibly relevant. So I will absolutely be sending the lunch to his department. >> Wonderful! All right. Well, is everyone ready? Any last words? This is your moment for smack talk. >> I think I'll say that for once we can apply it to a specific technology area. Otherwise, it was insulting his appearance and that's too easy. >> All right, let's get going. The first topic is multicloud. Corey, you'll be arguing that companies are better off standardizing on a single cloud. While Stu, you're going to argue the companies are better off with a multicloud strategy. Corey, you're up first, two minutes on the clock and go. >> All right. As a general rule, picking a single provider and going all in leads to the better outcome. Otherwise, you're trying to build every workload to run seamlessly on other providers on a moment's notice. You don't ever actually do it and all you're giving up in return is the ability to leverage whatever your primary cloud provider is letting you build. Now you're suddenly trying to make two differently behaving load balancers work together in the same way, you're using terraform or as I like to call it multicloud formation in the worst of all possible ways. Because now you're having to only really build on one provider, but all the work you're putting in to make that scale to other providers, you might theoretically want to go to at some point, it slows you down, you're never going to be able to move as quickly trying to build for everyone as you are for one particular provider. And I don't care which provider you pick, you probably care which one you pick, I don't care which one. The point is, you've got to pick what's right for your business. And in almost every case, that means start on a single platform. And if you need to migrate down the road years from now, great, that means A you've survived that long, and B you now have the longevity as a business to understand what migrating looks like. Otherwise you're not able to take care of any of the higher level offerings these providers offer that are even slightly differentiated from each other. And even managed database services behave differently. You've got to become a master of all the different ways these things can fail and unfortunate and displeasing ways. It just leaves you in a position where you're not able to specialize, and of course, makes hiring that much harder. Stu, fight me! >> Tough words there. All right, Stu, your turn. Why are companies better off if they go with a multicloud strategy? Got two minutes? >> Yeah, well first of all Corey, I'm really glad that I didn't have to whip out the AWS guidelines, you were not sticking strictly to it and saying that you could not use the words multicloud, cross-cloud, any cloud or every cloud so thank you for saving me that argument. But I want you to kind of come into the real world a little bit. We want access to innovation, we want flexibility, and well, we used to say I would have loved to have a single provider, in the real world we understand that people end up using multiple solutions. If you look at the AI world today, there's not a provider that is a clear leader in every environment that I have. So there's a reason why I might want to use a lot of clouds. Most companies I talked to, Corey, they still have some of their own servers. They're working in a data center, we've seen huge explosion in the service provider world connecting to multiple clouds. So well, a couple of years ago, multicloud was a complete mess. Now, it's only a little bit of a mess, Corey. So absolutely, there's work that we need to do as an industry to make these solutions better. I've been pining for a couple years to say that multicloud needs to be stronger than the sum of its pieces. And we might not yet be there but limiting yourself to a single cloud is reducing your access to innovation, it's reducing your flexibility. And when you start looking at things like edge computing and AI, I'm going to need to access services from multiple providers. So single cloud is a lovely ideal, but in the real world, we understand that teams come with certain skill sets. We end up in many industries, we have mergers and acquisitions. And it's not as easy to just rip out all of your cloud, like you would have 20 years ago, if you said, "Oh, well, they have a phone system or a router "that didn't match what our corporate guidelines is." Cloud is what we're doing. There's lots of solutions out there. And therefore, multicloud is the reality today, and will be the reality going forward for many years to come. >> Strong words from you, Stu. Corey, you've got 60 seconds for rebuttal. I mostly agree with what you just said. I think that having different workloads in different clouds makes an awful lot of sense. Data gravity becomes a bit of a bear. But if you acquire a company that's running on a different cloud than the one that you've picked, you'd be ridiculous to view migrating as anything approaching a strategic priority. Now, this also gets into the question of what is cloud? Our G Suite stuff counts as cloud, but no one really views it in that way. Similarly, when you have an AI specific workload, that's great. As long as it isn't you seriously expensive to move data between providers. That workload doesn't need to live in the same place as your marketing website does. I think that the idea of having a specific cloud provider that you go all in on for every use case, well, at some point that leads to ridiculous things like pretending that Amazon WorkDocs has customers, it does not. But for things that matter to your business and looking at specific workloads, I think that you're going to find a primary provider with secondary workloads here and they're scattered elsewhere to be the strategy that people are getting at when they use the word multicloud badly. >> Time's up for you Corey, Stu we've got time for rebuttal and remember, for those of you in the audience, you can vote at any time and who you think is winning this round. Stu, 60 seconds for a rebuttal. >> Yeah, absolutely Corey. Look, you just gave the Andy Jassy of what multicloud should be 70 to 80% goes to a single provider. And it does make sense we know nobody ever said multicloud equals the same amount in multiple environments but you made a clear case as to why multicloud leveraging multi providers is likely what most companies are going to do. So thank you so much for making a clear case as to why multicloud not equal cloud, across multiple providers is the way to go. So thank you for conceding the victory. >> Last Words, Corey. >> If that's what you took from it Stu, I can't get any closer to it than you have. >> All right, let's move on to the next topic then. The next topic is serverless versus containers which technology is going to be used in, let's say, five to 10 years time? And as a reminder, I'm going to assign each of the debaters these topics, their assignments may or may not match their true feelings about this topic, and they definitely don't represent the topics of my employer, CloudHealth by VMware. Stu, you're going to argue for containers. Corey you're going to argue for start serverless. Stu, you're up first. Two minutes on the clock and go. >> All right, so with all respect to my friends in the serverless community, We need to have a reality check as to how things work. We all know that serverless is a ridiculous name because underneath we do need to worry about all of the infrastructure underneath. So containers today are the de facto building block for cloud native architectures, just as the VM defined the ecosystem for an entire generation of solutions. Containers are the way we build things today. It is the way Google has architected their entire solution and underneath it is often something that's used with serverless. So yes, if you're, building an Alexa service, serverless make what's good for you. But for the vast majority of solutions, I need to have flexibility, I need to understand how things work underneath it. We know in IT that it's great when things work, but we need to understand how to fix them when they break. So containerization gets us to that atomic level, really close to having the same thing as the application. And therefore, we saw the millions of users that deploy Docker, we saw the huge wave of container orchestration led by Kubernetes. And the entire ecosystem and millions of customers are now on board with this way of designing and architecting and breaking down the silos between the infrastructure world and the application developer world. So containers, here to stay growing fast. >> All right, Corey, what do you think? Why is serverless the future? >> I think that you're right in that containers are the way you get from where you were to something that runs effectively in a cloud environment. That is why Google is so strongly behind Kubernetes it helps get the entire industry to write code the way that Google might write code. And that's great. But if you're looking at effectively rewriting something from scratch, or building something that new, the idea of not having to think about infrastructure in the traditional sense of being able to just here, take this code and run it in a given provider that takes whatever it is that you need to do and could loose all these other services together, saves an awful lot of time. As that continues to move up the stack towards the idea of no code or low code. And suddenly, you're now able to build these applications in ways that require just a little bit of code that tie together everything else. We're closer than ever to that old trope of the only code you write is business logic. Serverless gives a much clearer shot of getting there, if you can divorce yourself from the past of legacy workloads. Legacy, of course meaning older than 18 months and makes money. >> Stu, do you have a rebuttal, 60 seconds? >> Yeah. So Corey, we've been talking about this Nirvana in many ways. It's the discussion that we had for paths for over a decade now. I want to be able to write my code once not worry about where it lives, and do all this. But sometimes, there's a reason why we keep trying the same thing over and over again, but never reaching it. So serverless is great for some application If you talked about, okay, if you're some brand new webby thing there and I don't want to have to do this team, that's awesome. I've talked to some wonderful people that don't know anything about coding that have built some cool stuff with serverless. But cool stuff isn't what most business runs on, and therefore containerization is, as you said, it's a bridge to where I need to go, it lives in these cloud environments, and it is the present and it is the future. >> Corey, your response. >> I agree that it's the present, I doubt that it's the future in quite the same way. Right now Kubernetes is really scratching a major itch, which is how all of these companies who are moving to public cloud still I can have their infrastructure teams be able to cosplay as cloud providers themselves. And over time, that becomes simpler and I think on some level, you might even see a convergence of things that are container workloads begin to look a lot more like serverless workloads. Remember, we're aiming at something that is five years away in the context of this question. I think that the serverless and container landscape will look very different. The serverless landscape will be bright and exciting and new, whereas unfortunately the container landscape is going to be represented by people like you Stu. >> Hoarse words from Corey. Stu, any last words or rebuttals? >> Yeah, and look Corey absolutely just like we don't really think about the underlying server or VM, we won't think about the containers you won't think about Kubernetes in the future, but, the question is, which technology will be used in five to 10 years, it'll still be there. It will be the fabric of our lives underneath there for containerization. So, that is what we were talking about. Serverless I think will be useful in pockets of places but will not be the predominant technology, five years from now. >> All right, tough to say who won that one? I'm glad I don't have to decide. I hope everyone out there is voting, last chance to vote on this question before we move on to the next. Next topic is cloud wars. I'm going to give a statement and then I'm going to assign each of you a pro or a con, Google will never be an actual contender in the cloud wars always a far third, we're going to have Corey arguing that Google is never going to be an actual contender. And Stu, you're going to argue that Google is eventually going to overtake the top two AWS and Azure. As a constant reminder, I'm assigning these topics, it's my decision and also they don't match the opinions of me, my employer, or likely Stu or Corey. This is all just for fun and games. But I really want to hear what everyone has to say. So Corey, you're up first two minutes. Why is Google never going to be an actual contender and go. >> The biggest problem Google has in the time of cloud is their ability to forecast longer term on anything that isn't their advertising business, and their ability to talk to human beings long enough to meet people where they are. We're replacing their entire culture is what it's going to take to succeed in the time of cloud and with respect, Thomas Kurian is a spectacular leader internally but look at where he's come from. He spent 22 years at Oracle and now has been transplanted into Google. If we take a look at Satya Nadella's cloud transformation at Microsoft, he was able to pull that off as an insider, after having known intimately every aspect of that company, and he grew organically with it and was perfectly positioned to make that change. You can't instill that kind of culture change by dropping someone externally, on top of an organization and expecting anything to go with this magic one day wake up and everything's going to work out super well. Google has a tremendous amount of strengths, and I don't see that providing common denominator cloud computing services to a number of workloads that from a Google perspective are horrifying, is necessarily in their wheelhouse. It feels like their entire focus on this is well, there's money over there. We should go get some of that too. It comes down to the traditional Google lack of focus. >> Stu, rebuttal? Why do you think Google has a shaft? >> Yeah, so first of all, Corey, I think we'd agree Google is a powerhouse in the world today. My background is networking, when they first came out with with Google Cloud, I said, Google has the best network, second to none in the world. They are ubiquitous today. If you talk about the impact they have on the world, Android phones, you mentioned Kubernetes, everybody uses G Suite maps, YouTube, and the like. That does not mean that they are necessarily going to become the clear leader in cloud but, Corey, they've got really, really smart people. If you're not familiar with that talk to them. They'll tell you how smart they are. And they have built phenomenal solutions, who's going to be able to solve, the challenge every day of, true distributed systems, that a global database that can handle the clock down to the atomic level, Google's the one that does that we've all read the white papers on that. They've set the tone for Hadoop, and various solutions that are all over the place, and their secret weapon is not the advertising, of course, that is a big concern for them, but is that if you talk about, the consumer adoption, everyone uses Google. My kids have all had Chromebooks growing up. It isn't their favorite thing, but they get, indoctrinated with Google technology. And as they go out and leverage technologies in the world, Google is one that is known. Google has the strength of technology and a lot of positioning and partnerships to move them forward. Everybody wants a strong ecosystem in cloud, we don't want a single provider. We already discussed this before, but just from a competitive nature standpoint, if there is a clear counterbalance to AWS, I would say that it is Google, not Microsoft, that is positioned to be that clear and opportune. >> Interesting, very interesting Stu. So your argument is the Gen Zers will of ultimately when they come of age become the big Google proponents. Some strong words that as well but they're the better foil to AWS, Corey rebuttal? >> I think that Stu is one t-shirt change away from a pitch perfect reenactment of Charlie Brown. In this case with Google playing the part of Lucy yanking the football away every time. We've seen it with inbox, Google Reader, Google Maps, API pricing, GKE's pricing for control plane. And when your argument comes down to a suddenly Google is going to change their entire nature and become something that it is as proven as constitutionally incapable of being, namely supporting something that its customers want that it doesn't itself enjoy working on. And to the exclusion of being able to get distracted and focused on other things. Even their own conferences called Next because Google is more interested in what they're shipping than what they're building, than what they're currently shipping. I think that it is a fantasy to pretend that that is somehow going to change without a complete cultural transformation, which again, I don't see the seeds being planted for. >> Some sick burns in there Stu, rebuttal? >> Yeah. So the final word that I'll give you on this is, one of the most important pieces of what we need today. And we need to tomorrow is our data. Now, there are some concerns when we talk about Google and data, but Google also has strong strength in data, understanding data, helping customers leverage data. So while I agree to your points about the cultural shift, they have the opportunity to take the services that they have, and enable customers to be able to take their data to move forward to the wonderful world of AI, cloud, edge computing, and all of those pieces and solve the solution with data. >> Strong words there. All right, that's a tough one. Again, I hope you're all out there voting for who you think won that round. Let's move on to the last round before we start hitting the lightning questions. I put a call out on several channels and social media for people to have questions that they want you to debate. And this one comes from Og-AWS Slack member, Angelo. Angelo asks, "What about IBM Cloud?" Stu you're pro, Corey you're con. Let's have Stu you're up first. The question is, what about IBM Cloud? >> All right, so great question, Angelo. I think when you look at the cloud providers, first of all, you have to understand that they're not all playing the same game. We talked about AWS and they are the elephant in the room that moves nimbly as a cheetah. Every other provider plays a little bit of a different game. Google has strength in data. Microsoft, of course, has their, business productivity applications. IBM has a strong legacy. Now, Corey is going to say that they are just legacy and you need to think about them but IBM has strong innovation. They are a player in really what we call chapter two of the cloud. So when we start talking about multicloud, when we start talking about living in many environments, IBM was the first one to partner with VMware for VMware cloud before the mega VMware AWS announcement, there was IBM up on stage and if I remember right, they actually have more VMware customers on IBM Cloud than they do in the AWS cloud. So over my shoulder here, there's of course, the Red Hat $34 billion to bet on that multicloud solution. So as we talk about containerization, and Kubernetes, Red Hat is strongly positioned in open-source, and flexibility. So you really need a company that understands both the infrastructure side and the application side. IBM has database, IBM has infrastructure, IBM has long been the leader in middleware, and therefore IBM has a real chance to be a strong player in this next generation of platforms. Doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to go attack Amazon, they're partnering across the board. So I think you will see a kinder, gentler IBM and they are leveraging open source and Red Hat and I think we've let the dogs out on the IBM solution. >> Indeed. >> So before Corey goes, I feel the need to remind everyone that the views expressed here are not the views of my employer nor myself, nor necessarily of Corey or Stu. I have Corey. >> I haven't even said anything yet. And you're disclaiming what I'm about to say. >> I'm just warning the audience, 'cause I can't wait to hear what you're going to say next. >> Sounds like I have to go for the high score. All right. IBM's best days are behind it. And that is pretty clear. They like to get angry when people talk about how making the jokes about a homogenous looking group of guys in blue suits as being all IBM has to offer. They say that hasn't been true since the '80s. But that was the last time people cared about IBM in any meaningful sense and no one has bothered to update the relevance since then. Now, credit where due, I am seeing an awful lot of promoted tweets from IBM into my timeline, all talking about how amazing their IBM blockchain technology is. And yes, that is absolutely the phrasing of someone who's about to turn it all around and win the game. I don't see it happening. >> Stu, rebuttal? >> Look, Corey, IBM was the company that brought us the UPC code. They understand Mac manufacturing and blockchain actually shows strong presence in supply chain management. So maybe you're not quite aware of some of the industries that IBM is an expert in. So that is one of the big strengths of IBM, they really understand verticals quite well. And, at the IBM things show, I saw a lot in the healthcare world, had very large customers that were leveraging those solutions. So while you might dismiss things when they say, Oh, well, one of the largest telecom providers in India are leveraging OpenStack and you kind of go with them, well, they've got 300 million customers, and they're thrilled with the solution that they're doing with IBM, so it is easy to scoff at them, but IBM is a reliable, trusted provider out there and still very strong financially and by the way, really excited with the new leadership in place there, Arvind Krishna knows product, Jim Whitehurst came from the Red Hat side. So don't be sleeping on IBM. >> Corey, any last words? >> I think that they're subject to massive disruption as soon as they release the AWS 400 mainframe in the cloud. And I think that before we, it's easy to forget this, but before Google was turning off Reader, IBM stopped making the model M buckling spring keyboards. Those things were masterpieces and that was one of the original disappointments that we learned that we can't fall in love with companies, because companies in turn will not love us back. IBM has demonstrated that. Lastly, I think I'm thrilled to be working with IBM is exactly the kind of statement one makes only at gunpoint. >> Hey, Corey, by the way, I think you're spending too much time looking at all titles of AWS services, 'cause you don't know the difference between your mainframe Z series and the AS/400 which of course is heavily pending. >> Also the i series. Oh yes. >> The i series. So you're conflating your system, which still do billions of dollars a year, by the way. >> Oh, absolutely. But that's not we're not seeing new banks launching and then building on top of IBM mainframe technology. I'm not disputing that mainframes were phenomenal. They were, I just don't see them as the future and I don't see a cloud story. >> Only a cloud live your mainframe related smack talk. That's the important thing that we're getting to here. All right, we move-- >> I'm hoping there's an announcement from CloudHealth by VMware that they also will now support mainframe analytics as well as traditional cloud. >> I'll look into that. >> Excellent. >> We're moving on to the lightning rounds. Each debater in this round is only going to get 60 seconds for their opening argument and then 30 seconds for a rebuttal. We're going to hit some really, really big important questions here like this first one, which is who deserves to sit on the Iron Throne at the end of "Game of Thrones?" I've been told that Corey has never seen this TV show so I'm very interested to hear him argue for Sansa. But let's Sansa Stark, let's hear Stu go first with his argument for Jon Snow. Stu one minute on the clock, go. >> All right audience let's hear it from the king of the north first of all. Nothing better than Jon Snow. He made the ultimate sacrifice. He killed his love to save Westeros from clear destruction because Khaleesi had gone mad. So Corey is going to say something like it's time for the women to do this but it was a woman she went mad. She started burning the place down and Jon Snow saved it so it only makes sense that he should have done it. Everyone knows it was a travesty that he was sent back to the Wall, and to just wander the wild. So absolutely Jon Snow vote for King of the North. >> Compelling arguments. Corey, why should Sansa Stark sit on the throne? Never having seen the show I've just heard bits and pieces about it and all involves things like bloody slaughters, for example, the AWS partner Expo right before the keynote is best known as AWS red wedding. We take a look at that across the board and not having seen it, I don't know the answer to this question, but how many of the folks who are in positions of power we're in fact mediocre white dudes and here we have Stu advocating for yet another one. Sure, this is a lightning round of a fun event but yes, we should continue to wind up selecting this mediocre white person has many parallels in terms of power, et cetera, politics, current tech industry as a whole. I think she's right we absolutely should give someone with a look like this a potential opportunity to see what they can do instead. >> Ouch, Stu 30 seconds rebuttal. >> Look, I would just give a call out to the women in the audience and say, don't you want Jon Snow to be king? >> I also think it's quite bold of Corey to say that he looks like Kit Harington. Corey, any last words? >> I think that it sad you think Stu was running for office at this point because he's become everyone's least favorite animal, a panda bear. >> Fire. All right, so on to the next question. This one also very important near and dear to my heart personally, is a hot dog a sandwich. Corey you'll be arguing no, Stu will be arguing yes. I must also add this important disclaimer that these assignments are made by me and might not reflect the actual views of the debaters here so Corey, you're up first. Why is a hot dog not a sandwich? >> Because you'll get punched in the face if you go to a deli of any renown and order a hot dog. That is not what they serve there. They wind up having these famous delicatessen in New York they have different sandwiches named after different celebrities. I shudder to think of the deadly insult that naming a hot dog after a celebrity would be to that not only celebrity in some cases also the hot dog too. If you take a look and you want to get sandwiches for lunch? Sure. What are we having catered for this event? Sandwiches. You show up and you see a hot dog, you're looking around the hot dog to find the rest of the sandwich. Now while it may check all of the boxes for a technical definition of what a sandwich is, as I'm sure Stu will boringly get into, it's not what people expect, there's a matter of checking the actual boxes, and then delivering what customers actually want. It's why you can let your product roadmap be guided by cart by customers or by Gartner but rarely both. >> Wow, that one hurts. Stu, why is the hot dog a sandwich? >> Yeah so like Corey, I'm sorry that you must not have done some decent traveling 'cause I'm glad you brought up the definition because I'm not going to bore you with yes, there's bread and there's meat and there's toppings and everything else like that but there are some phenomenal hot dogs out there. I traveled to Iceland a few years ago, and there's a little hot dog stand out there that's been there for over 40 or 50 years. And it's one of the top 10 culinary experience I put in. And I've been to Michelin star restaurants. You go to Chicago and any local will be absolutely have to try our creation. There are regional hot dogs. There are lots of solutions there and so yeah, of course you don't go to a deli. Of course if you're going to the deli for takeout and you're buying meats, they do sell hot dogs, Corey, it's just not the first thing that you're going to order on the menu. So I think you're underselling the hot dog. Whether you are a child and grew up and like eating nothing more than the mustard or ketchup, wherever you ate on it, or if you're a world traveler, and have tried some of the worst options out there. There are a lot of options for hot dogs so hot dog, sandwich, culinary delight. >> Stu, don't think we didn't hear that pun. I'm not sure if that counts for or against you, but Corey 30 seconds rebuttal. >> In the last question, you were agitating for putting a white guy back in power. Now you're sitting here arguing that, "Oh some of my best friend slash meals or hot dogs." Yeah, I think we see what you're putting down Stu and it's not pretty, it's really not pretty and I think people are just going to start having to ask some very pointed, delicate questions. >> Tough words to hear Stu. Close this out or rebuttal. >> I'm going to take the high road, Rachel and leave that where it stands. >> I think that is smart. All right, next question. Tabs versus spaces. Stu, you're going to argue for tabs, Corey, you're going to argue for spaces just to make this fun. Stu, 60 seconds on the clock, you're up first. Why are tabs the correct approach? >> First of all, my competitor here really isn't into pop culture. So he's probably not familiar with the epic Silicon Valley argument over this discussion. So, Corey, if you could explain the middle of algorithm, we will be quite impressed but since you don't, we'll just have to go with some of the technology first. Looks, developers, we want to make things simple on you. Tabs, they're faster to do they take up less memory. Yes, they aren't quite as particular as using spaces but absolutely, they get the job done and it is important to just, focus on productivity, I believe that the conversation as always, the less code you can write, the better and therefore, if you don't have to focus on exactly how many spaces and you can just simplify with the tabs, you're gona get close enough for most of the job. And it is easier to move forward and focus on the real work rather than some pedantic discussion as to whether one thing is slightly more efficient than the other. >> Great points Stu. Corey, why is your pedantic approach better? >> No one is suggesting you sit there and whack the spacebar four times or eight times you hit the Tab key, but your editor should be reasonably intelligent enough to expand that. At that point, you have now set up a precedent where in other cases, other parts of your codebase you're using spaces because everyone always does. And that winds up in turn, causing a weird dissonance you'll see a bunch of linters throwing issues if you use tabs as a direct result. Now the wrong answer is, of course, and I think Steve will agree with me both in the same line. No one is ever in favor of that. But I also want to argue with Stu over his argument about "Oh, it saves a little bit of space "is the reason one should go with tabs instead." Sorry, that argument said bye bye a long time ago, and that time was the introduction of JavaScript, where it takes many hundreds of Meg's of data to wind up building hello world. Yeah, at that point optimization around small character changes are completely irrelevant. >> Stu, rebuttal? >> Yeah, I didn't know that Corey did not try to defend that he had any idea what Silicon Valley was, or any of the references in there. So Rachel, we might have to avoid any other pop culture references. We know Corey just looks at very specific cloud services and can't have fun with some of the broader themes there. >> You're right my mistake Stu. Corey, any last words? >> It's been suggested that whole middle out seen on the whiteboard was came from a number of conversations I used to have with my co-workers as in people who were sitting in the room with me watching that episode said, Oh my God, I've been in the room while you had this debate with your friend and I will not name here because they at least still strive to remain employable. Yeah, it's, I understand the value in the picking these fights, we could have gone just as easily with vi versus Emacs, AWS versus Azure, or anything else that you really care to pick a fight with. But yeah, this is exactly the kind of pedantic fight that everyone loves to get involved with, which is why I walked a different path and pick other ridiculous arguments. >> Speaking of those ridiculous arguments that brings us to our last debate topic of the day, Corey you are probably best known for your strong feelings about the pronunciation of the acronym for Amazon Machine Image. I will not be saying how I think it is pronounced. We're going to have you argue each. Stu, you're going to argue that the acronym Amazon Machine Image should be pronounced to rhyme with butterfly. Corey, you'll be arguing that it rhymes with mommy. Stu, rhymes with butterfly. Let's hear it, 60 seconds on the clock. >> All right, well, Rachel, first of all, I wish I could go to the videotape because I have clear video evidence from a certain Corey Quinn many times arguing why AMI is the proper way to pronounce this, but it is one of these pedantic arguments, is it GIF or GIF? Sometimes you go back and you say, Okay, well, there's the way that the community did it. And the way that oh wait, the founder said it was a certain way. So the only argument against AMI, Jeff Barr, when he wrote about the history of all of the blogging that he's done from AWS said, I wish when I had launched the service that I pointed out the correct pronunciation, which I won't even deem to talk it because the community has agreed by and large that AMI is the proper way to pronounce it. And boy, the tech industry is rific on this kind of thing. Is it SQL and no SQL and you there's various ways that we butcher these constantly. So AMI, almost everyone agrees and the lead champion for this argument, of course is none other than Corey Quinn. >> Well, unfortunately today Corey needs to argue the opposite. So Corey, why does Amazon Machine Image when pronounce as an acronym rhyme with mommy? >> Because the people who built it at Amazon say that it is and an appeal to authorities generally correct when the folks built this. AWS has said repeatedly that they're willing to be misunderstood for long periods of time. And this is one of those areas in which they have been misunderstood by virtually the entire industry, but they are sticking to their guns and continuing to wind up advocating for AMI as the correct pronunciation. But I'll take it a step further. Let's take a look at the ecosystem companies. Whenever Erica Brescia, who is now the COO and GitHub, but before she wound up there, she was the founder of Bitnami. And whenever I call it Bitn AMI she looks like she is barely successfully restraining herself from punching me right in the mouth for that pronunciation of the company. Clearly, it's Bitnami named after the original source AMI, which is what the proper term pronunciation of the three letter acronym becomes. Fight me Stu. >> Interesting. Interesting argument, Stu 30 seconds, rebuttal. >> Oh, the only thing he can come up with is that, you take the word Bitnami and because it has that we know that things sound very different if you put a prefix or a suffix, if you talk to the Kubernetes founders, Kubernetes should be coop con but the people that run the conference, say it cube con so there are lots of debates between the people that create it and the community. I in general, I'm going to vote with the community most of the time. Corey, last words on this topic 'cause I know you have very strong feelings about it. >> I'm sorry, did Stu just say Kubernetes and its community as bastions of truth when it comes to pronouncing anything correctly? Half of that entire conference is correcting people's pronunciation of Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes and 15 other mispronunciations that they will of course yell at you for but somehow they're right on this one. All right. >> All right, everyone, I hope you've been voting all along for who you think is winning each round, 'cause this has been a tough call. But I would like to say that's a wrap for today. big thank you to our debaters. You've been very good sports, even when I've made you argue for against things that clearly are hurting you deep down inside, we're going to take a quick break and tally all the votes. And we're going to announce a winner up on the Zoom Q and A. So go to the top of your screen, Click on Zoom Q and A to join us and hear the winner announced and also get a couple minutes to chat live with Corey and Stu. Thanks again for attending this session. And thank you again, Corey and Stu. It's been The Great Cloud Debate. All right, so each round I will announce the winner and then we're going to announce the overall winner. Remember that Corey and Stu are playing not just for bragging rights and ownership of all of the internet for the next 24 hours, but also for lunch to be donated to their local hospital. Corey is having lunch donated to the California Pacific Medical Centre. And Stu is having lunch donated to Boston Medical Centre. All right, first up round one multicloud versus monocloud. Stu, you were arguing for multicloud, Corey, you were arguing for one cloud. Stu won that one by 64% of the vote. >> The vendor fix was in. >> Yeah, well, look, CloudHealth started all in AWS by supporting customers across those environments. So and Corey you basically conceded it because we said multicloud does not mean we evenly split things up. So you got to work on those two skills, buddy, 'cause, absolutely you just handed the victory my way. So thank you so much and thank you to the audience for understanding multicloud is where we are today, and unfortunately, it's where we're gonnao be in the future. So as a whole, we're going to try to make it better 'cause it is, as Corey and I both agree, a bit of a mess right now. >> Don't get too cocky. >> One of those days the world is going to catch up with me and realize that ad hominem is not a logical fallacy so much as it is an excellent debating skill. >> Well, yeah, I was going to say, Stu, don't get too cocky because round two serverless versus containers. Stu you argued for containers, Corey you argued for serverless. Corey you won that one with 65, 66 or most percent of the vote. >> You can't fight the future. >> Yeah, and as you know Rachel I'm a big fan of serverless. I've been to the serverless comp, I actually just published an excellent interview with Liberty Mutual and what they're doing with serverless. So love the future, it's got a lot of maturity to deliver on the promise that it has today but containers isn't going anyway or either so. >> So, you're not sad that you lost that one. Got it, good concession speech. Next one up was cloud wars specifically Google. is Google a real contender in the clouds? Stu, you were arguing yes they are. Corey, you were arguing no they aren't. Corey also won this round was 72% of the votes. >> Yeah, it's one of those things where at some point, it's sort of embarrassing if you miss a six inch pot. So it's nice that that didn't happen in this case. >> Yeah, so Corey, is this the last week that we have any competitors to AWS? Is that what we're saying? And we all accept our new overlords. Thank you so much, Corey. >> Well I hope not, my God, I don't know what to be an Amazonian monoculture anymore than I do anyone else. Competition makes all of us better. But again, we're seeing a lot of anti competitive behaviour. For example, took until this year for Microsoft to finally make calculator uninstallable and I trust concerned took a long time to work its way of course. >> Yeah, and Corey, I think everyone is listening to what you've been saying about what Google's doing with Google Meet and forcing that us when we make our pieces there. So definitely there's some things that Google culture, we'd love them to clean up. And that's one of the things that's really held back Google's enterprise budget is that advertised advertising driven culture. So we will see. We are working hand-- >> That was already opted out of Hangouts, how do we fix it? We call it something else that they haven't opted out of yet. >> Hey, but Corey, I know you're looking forward to at least two months of weekly Google live stuff starting this summer. So we'll have a lot of time to talk about google. >> Let's not kid ourselves they're going to cancel it halfway through. (Stu laughs) >> Boys, I thought we didn't have any more smack talk left in you but clearly you do. So, all right, moving on. Next slide. This is the last question that we did in the main part of the debate. IBM Cloud. What about IBM Cloud was the question, Stu, you were pro, Corey you were con. Corey, you won this one again with 62% of the vote and for the main. >> It wasn't just me, IBM Cloud also won. The problem is that competition was oxymoron of the day. >> I don't know Rachel, I thought this one had a real shot as to putting where IBM fits. I thought we had a good discussion there. It seemed like some of the early voting was going my way but it just went otherwise. >> It did. We had some last minute swings in these polls. They were going one direction they rapidly swung another it's a fickle crowd today. So right now we've got Corey with three points Stu with one but really the lightning round anyone's game. They got very close here. The next question, lightning round question one, was "Game of Thrones" who deserves to sit on the Iron Throne? Stu was arguing for Jon Snow, Corey was arguing for Sansa Stark also Corey has never seen Game of Thrones. This was shockingly close with Stu at 51.5% of the vote took the crown on this King of the North Stu. >> Well, I'm thrilled and excited that King of the North pulled things out because it would have been just a complete embarrassment if I lost to Corey on this question. >> It would. >> It was the right answer, and as you said, he had no idea what he's talking about, which, unfortunately is how he is on most of the rest of it. You just don't realize that he doesn't know what he's talking about. 'Cause he uses all those fast words and discussion points. >> Well, thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. Now, I am completely crestfallen as to the results of this question about a thing I've never seen and could not possibly care less about not going in my favor. I will someday managed to get over this. >> I'm glad you can really pull yourself together and keep on going with life, Corey it's inspiring. All right, next question. Was the lightning round question two is a hot dog a sandwich? Stu, you were arguing yes. Corey, you were arguing no. Corey landslide, you won this 75% of the vote. >> It all comes down to customer expectations. >> Yeah. >> Just disappointment. Disappointment. >> All right, next question tabs versus spaces. Another very close one. Stu, what were you arguing for Stu? >> I was voting tabs. >> Tabs, yeah. And Corey, you were arguing spaces. This did not turn out the way I expected. So Stu you lost this by slim margin Corey 53% of the vote. You won with spaces. >> Yep. And I use spaces in my day to day life. So that's a position I can actually believe in. >> See, I thought I was giving you the opposite point of view there. I mistook you for the correct answer, in my opinion, which is tabs. >> Well, it is funnier to stalk me on Twitter and look what I have to there than on GitHub where I just completely commit different kinds of atrocities. So I don't blame you. >> Caught that pun there. All right, the last rounds. Speaking of atrocities, AMI, Amazon Machine Image is it pronounced AMI or AMI? >> I better not have won this one. >> So Stu you were arguing that this is pronounced AMI rhymes with butterfly. Corey, you were arguing that it's pronounced AMI like mommy. Any guesses under who won this? >> It better be Stu. >> It was a 50, 50 split complete tie. So no points to anyone. >> For your complete and utterly failed on this because I should have won in a landslide. My entire argument was based on every discussion you've had on this. So, Corey I think they're just voting for you. So I'm really surprised-- >> I think at this point it shows I'm such a skilled debater that I could have also probably brought you to a standstill taking the position that gravity doesn't exist. >> You're a master of few things, Corey. Usually it's when you were dressed up nicely and I think they like the t-shirt. It's a nice t-shirt but not how we're usually hiding behind the attire. >> Truly >> Well. >> Clothes don't always make a demand. >> Gentlemen, I would like to say overall our winner today with five points is Corey. Congratulations, Corey. >> Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to mop the floor with you Stu. >> Actually I was going to ask Stu to give the acceptance speech for you, Corey and, Corey, if you could give a few words of concession, >> Oh, that's a different direction. Stu, we'll start with you, I suppose. >> Yeah, well, thank you to the audience. Obviously, you voted for me without really understanding that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a loudmouth on Twitter. I just create a bunch of arguments out there. I'm influential for reasons I don't really understand. But once again, thank you for your votes so much. >> Yeah, it's always unfortunate to wind up losing a discussion with someone and you wouldn't consider it losing 'cause most of the time, my entire shtick is that I sit around and talk to people who know what they're talking about. And I look smart just by osmosis sitting next to them. Video has been rough on me. So I was sort of hoping that I'd be able to parlay that into something approaching a victory. But sadly, that hasn't worked out quite so well. This is just yet another production brought to you by theCube which shut down my original idea of calling it a bunch of squares. (Rachael laughs) >> All right, well, on that note, I would like to say thank you both Stu and Corey. I think we can close out officially the debate, but we can all stick around for a couple more minutes in case any fans have questions for either of them or want to get them-- >> Find us a real life? Yeah. >> Yeah, have a quick Zoom fight. So thanks, everyone, for attending. And thank you Stu, thank you Corey. This has been The Great Cloud Debate.

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering del Technologies. World twenty nineteen, brought to you by Del Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage here, Adele. Technology rule in Las Vegas. I'm John for Developed, a special guest. Michael Dell, Chairman, CEO, Del Technologies Cube. Alumni. Great to see you again. Yearly pilgrimage. People can come on the Cube. Good to see you again. Thanks. May always >> Great to be with you guys. >> All right, So I gotta ask you because, you know, Dave and I were talking on yesterday's kickoff on our intro about the conversation we had. I think six years ago we saw you standing there in Austin, but still a public company didn't go private yet. And then the series of moves going private and we're like, That's great. Get behind the curtain. Get things reset. Look at the cash flows. Looking good. You had the clear plan as the founder and CEO is kind of a new kind of reset, if you will. And then up to now the execution in just the series of moves. When you look back now where you are today, where you were then how do you feel? What's absurd? What did you learn? What's some of the highlights for you? >> Well, look, we feel great, You know, our business is really grown tremendously. It's all the things we've been doing has been resonating with customers have been ableto, I would say, restored the origins of the entrepreneurial dream and success of the company and reintroduce, uh, innovation and risk taking into, ah, now ninety one billion dollars company growing in double digits last year and certainly the set of capabilities. That way, we've been able to build organically and in organically on DH with set of alliances. We have the trust that customers have given us, you know, super happy about the position that we're in and the opportunities going forward. As I've said, you know, a zay said Mikey. No, yesterday. I think all this is really just the pregame show. Tow what's ahead for our industry and for the role that technology is going to play in the world. >> And the role of data you mentioned also used to quote you Yes, that you said data a CZ the life, blood of digital transformation of the heartbeat, visual transformation and It's also revitalizing all the other components of what looked like a consolidated market is now actually being reborn the PC, technology, infrastructure, fabrics and other software opportunity. So Data has kind of brought in a whole nother level of kind of revitalisation and the industry, which is actually causing more investment in what looked like older category of you know it and computers whatnot. This's been a big, big tailwind for you guys. >> Well, data has always been at the centre of you know how the technology industry works and now we just have a tsunami explosion of data. And of course, now we have this new computer science that allows us Teo reason over the data in real time and create much better results in outcomes and that combined with the computing power, all organizations have to reimagine themselves, given all these technologies and certainly the infrastructure requirements in terms of the network, you know, the storage, that computer bill out of the edge, tons of new requirements, and we're super well positioned to go address all that. >> I enjoyed your keynote, Michael. So I thought it was excellent. One of your better ones and you painted a picture of tech for good. Uh, really life changing things that you guys and your customers are doing. You gave some examples that be an example of example was great Draper Labs. But you also paid a picture. You need a platform for this digital transformation. We've seen the numbers. Eighty percent of the workloads are still on Prem. What do you think that looks like ten years down the road? What do you What's your vision say? >> Well, the surprise outcome ten years from now is they'LL be something much bigger than the private cloud and Public Cloud. It's the edge and actually think that would be way more computer data on the edge in ten years than any of the, you know, derivatives of cloud that we want to talk about. So that's a ten year prediction. Yeah, that's that's That's kind of what I see. And maybe maybe nobody's predicting that this yet, But, you know, let's come back in ten years and see what it looks like. >> So I like to do that hybrid hybrid. Klaus been around for a while, but talked about. It's been kind of operating, Ma. We see that multi cloud is really kind of surged in importance in conversations because I think people wake up and go. Hey, I got multiple clouds. I got azure over here for ofthis three sixty five. I got some Amazon over here. I got some home grown stuff over here. I got a data center so that people kind of generally Khun, Khun, relate to the reality of multi cloud hybrid. Live it more of a different kind of twist, but certainly relevant. But multi cloud has got everyone's attention and you guys launched Del Cloud. Is that a multi cloud, or is that a cloud to multiple clouds? Explain your view on that and where this goes. >> So really, what we're doing is we're bringing to customers. All the resource is they need to operate in the hybrid, multi cloud world. And first, you have to recognize that the workloads want to move around and to say that they're all going to be here, or there is in some sense, missing the point because they're going to move back and forth. And, uh, you know, you've got regulation cost security performance late and see all sorts of new requirements that air coming at you and they're not going to just sit, sit in one place. Now, as you know, with via Work Cloud Foundation, we have the ability to move these workloads seamlessly across. Now, essentially all the public clouds, right. Forty, two hundred partners out there infrastructure on premise built and tuned specifically for the VM wear platform and empowered also for the edge and a love. This together is the Del Technologies Cloud. We have obviously great, uh, capabilities from our Delhi emcee infrastructure solutions and all the great innovations that Veum where coming together >> scale has been a topic. We talked on the Cube many years. We saw Amazon get scale with public cloud scales of competitive advantage is now becoming kind of table stakes both for customers trying to figure out how to operate a digital scale, speed a life. You guys have a scale level now that's pretty impressive. What you guys done with the puzzle pieces, You cut puzzle pieces, you know, cos capabilities now across the board, as you guys look at scale is a competitive advantage, which it is, and we talked about this before. You now have to integrate seamlessly in these pieces. So as you compose as customers compose the variety of capabilities. It's gotta be frictionless. That's a goal. How do you look at that? How do you talk to your team's about this on DH? What's your view on scale? And is this something you guys talk about inside the company? >> Well, inside the business, you know, the first priority was to get each of the individual pieces working well. But then we saw that the real opportunity was in the scenes on how we could more deeply integrate all the aspects of what we're doing together. And you saw that on stage, you know, in vivid form yesterday with Pat and Jeff and Sasha and even more today again. And there's more to do. There's, although there's always more to do. Were working on how we build a gate, a platform bringing together all of our capabilities with Bhumi and data protection on DH bm wear, and this is all going to be super important way. Enter this A I enabled age of the future. >> Michael, you got a track record of creating shareholder value. We're big fans of, you know, we'LL have CNBC on in the office and Michael's on everybody coming across, right? Davos? Picky, Quick. We're also big fans have asked you to sort of knocked down to three criticisms. And sure, it was really a conversation about stock price, you know? And you Did you knock down the debt structure? The low margin business, the ownership structure, its center. But you never came backto stock price, so it looks like a couple of ways to invest. Now VM wear directly. Also looks like Veum where you could you could buy cheaply through Del What your thoughts on on that? You know where Dell sits in the market today? Its value. >> I think. You know, investors are increasingly understanding that we've created an incredible business here and certainly, you know, if we look at the additional coverage that we have and you know, they're they're a CZ their understanding, the business, you know, some of the analysts are starting to say, Hey, this doesn't really feel like a conglomerate. Direct quote. Okay. And, uh, if you think about what we demonstrated today, yesterday and we'LL demonstrate the future, you know, we're not like Berkshire Hathaway or, uh you know, uh, this is not a railroad that owns a chain of restaurants. This is one integrated business that fits together incredibly well, and you know it's generating substantial cash flows. And, you know, I think investors overtime are figuring out value. That's intrinsic. Teo, the overall Del Technologies family now wave Got lots of ways to invest, right? Get, Be aware. SecureWorks pivotal. And, of course, the overall Del Technologies. >> Yeah, and just a follow up on that. I mean, I've observed on the margin side I mean, when del went private, it was around nineteen percent gross margins. Now you're in gross margin heaven, you know, absorbing the emcee. And it seems to be headed in the right right direction. So it's a nice mix >> know, in our in our cloud, an infrastructure group, almost ninety percent of the engineers are software engineers. And so you think aboutthe innovations you saw in states today with power Macs and Unity, X T and our power protect platform. You know, basically all software running on power power it surfers and platforms that we've created. >> What's on your plate now, Michael? As you come out, come out of Del Technologies world. You got business to take care of what your goals what's on your plate. What's your object? Is what you trying to accomplish in the next year? >> Well, certainly continuing to execute for our customers growing faster than the industry. You know, maintaining and improving our customer NPS levels and keeping the innovation engine cranked up on high. You saw a lot today on DH yesterday. Stay tuned, Veum. World's coming in in August and they'LL be much, much more way Continue toe innovate together Lucy with Veum where so we've got we've got lots more in the cube >> and you got cash will come in, which means your suppliers to a lot of customers Congratulations. I want to get your final thought on my final question on the Tech for good One of the things I saw yesterday on the Kino that you gave was that popped out wass. It wasn't about the speeds and feeds around, you know, the performances get great performance on the tech side. You gotta be, you know, the infrastructure level Scott be performing, but it's about solving problems. And I think this is a direction that you're taking the company saying there's outcomes out there. The problems that can be solved with tech We're hearing a whole tech for bad narrative in the media these days. Tax evil text. Bad. But there are awesome spots where technology is creating great things for society. This is a theme for you. Can you share? Why that focus? And when some of the highlights >> it's right. I mean, if you if you step back from the what happened in the last twenty four hours, twenty four days and even twenty four months, you start looking at, you know, twenty four years you start to see is thie. Outcomes for humanity have gotten dramatically better, and technologies played an enormous role in that. I'm massively optimistic that in the next three decades they're going to be really miracles. In terms of how do you dress things like deafness and blindness and paralysis with a I and embedded technology inside the body. The, you know, things were able to do now with sequencing the genome and using all this data to create personalized medicine solutions. Yes, technology can be used for bad, but the vast majority of it is used for good by people that have good in their hearts. Right. And and, uh, you know, uh, it goes beyond making great businesses and making people more productive. It's actually changing lives and very positive ways, >> while the other big narrative in the pressure here is automation and taking away jobs. And it's a serious concern. However, you know there's no reason to protect the past from from the future and this great opportunities ahead education and someone, even you and Susan but big supporters of that, obviously. So we're optimistic for the future. I know I know you are. The best is yet to come. As I'd like to say >> Absolutely, we agree. >> Once an entrepreneur, always an entrepreneur, you great entrepreneurial track record you celebrate thirty five years from the original dorm room. So some of your Facebook posts now here he took a business that you knew T mature couple players. This is a trend we're seeing. Zoom communication just went public. They took video streaming and holding meetings and completely when cloud base and disrupted it. You saw >> runs on Dell EMC by the way >> runs on Dell, did not know that it's only a lot of Michael great, but this is an entre. I want to get your advice to other articles that might be watching us because you now, with the technology with data and cloud and tech, you, Khun, go into existing markets that don't look good on paper that people might dismiss as that's over. That's a mature market You've certainly taken Del Technology's got all the pieces and are executing at a home of the level. Zoom did it for video on the cloud. There are zillions of these opportunities out there that entrepreneurs. So the advice don't be discouraged by what looks like a big fat market. So your what's your advice?  >> and I I feel something is coming. That's quite significant. And right now you mentioned this new wave of companies that air coming public and they were built on a foundation of technology infrastructure capabilities. You know that was established, Let's say, ten years ago. Okay, well, right now we're just at the kind of beginning of five G and A II technology, and all these embedded sensors and low latent see communications, and there will be a whole another wave of cos I suspect many, many more across all industries that, you know, just unlock all kinds of new capabilities and an opportunity. So I'm super excited about that. Andi, I think I think it's it's just going to get more interesting. >> It's amazing to think of the tools you had thirty five years ago, when you started and how you've transformed. So congratulations. >> Thank you. Spend the time again. Thanks for having us again here. Tenth year, Del Technologies. Well, thanks for having us. And great to have a conversation. >> Thank you. And the rest of the cube team for all your great coverage. >> Thank you very much. Michael Dell, Chairman, CEO, Dell Technology here. David Velante myself, John Furrier. Stay tuned for more day to coverage. We got two sets here. It's a cube canon of content blown out. The content here, Adele Technology, world Check out Dell's hashtag del tech world for all the highlights will be right back after this short break.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at AWS re:Invent 2018 at the Sands Convention Center and all over Vegas. I don't know how many people are here. We haven't gotten the official word. 60,000, 70,000, I don't know. There's a lot of people. We're excited to have our next guest, but before we get in, happy to be joined by Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you, as always. >> Great to see you, as well. >> You know, one of my favorite things about doing Cube interviews is we learn about new industries that we didn't even know about. So, while we're here talking about IT, it's really about the application of IT that I think is really more interesting, more fun, and a great learning experience. So, we're really excited to have our next guest on. He is Kevin Smith, the director of MIS for Transcore. Kevin, great to see you. >> Hello. >> And many time Cube alumni, Sazzala Reddy. He is the CTO and co founder of Datrium. Sazzala, great to see you. >> Happy to be here. >> So, Kevin before we get into it, tells us a little about Transcore. What are you guys all about? >> Basically, we are the leading toll authority for kind of of Continental United States and we are trying to expand that throughout the world. We do the whole engineer all the way through manufacturing of toll systems for vehicles and cars throughout the U.S. So, the little stickers in you car all the way up to the readers that read them. They're coming through my place some how or some other. >> So, everything from the reader in the car-- >> Yup, the little sticker tag that sticks in your window or suction cups in. Wherever you are, yes you may hate us, but I'm not the one collecting the tolls. (laughs) >> I don't like it when you miss the picture. >> Well, let's input some design here. (laughs) >> Trust me, I've tried. (laughs) >> But then the huge back in process to pull that up, get it into the system, billing systems. >> Yeah, all integrated. Yep. >> And how big is the company? How long has it been around? >> We were acquired by Roper. We've been many divisions, but Los Alamos was technically, founding fathers 1954. >> 1954, so you've been around a long time >> Oh yeah, yes. They started with cows. >> RFID's on cows? >> Yes, tracking cows in the pastures of New Mexico. (laughs) >> With the little tags in their ears I imagine. Alright, great. We can talk about traffic probably all day long, but that's not why were here. That's not your day job you're not out there with the little RFID scanner. >> Not anymore, thank God. >> Let's talk about some of the challenges 'cause you know, obviously, the toll business has been around for a long time. But the automation of tolls has really changed a lot over the last five years. You probably know better than me from somebody in the booth taking my money and giving me a receipt to some places it's almost exclusively electronic. So, how's that business grown, and what have been some of the accompanying challenges have you seen that been grown? >> Part of the performance issues we were running into was the quantity. Because the man is gone from the booth, we have to produce more tags that become more readable. So, that creates more back in work, more transactions. And, in the long run, producing more tags. You know, we've gone to millions and millions of tags being produced, in a quarter, to where it was just hundreds of thousands. So, with that requires scalability that we can grow with our systems and our systems we had just wasn't doing it. >> So, you got the manufacturing of the tags as well, I didn't even think of the manufac- you got to make them in the first place, too. >> That is our bread and butter. Manufacturing those tags and the millions of millions of transactions that we test, because we have to test every tag that goes out the door. Every tag gets tested. >> How far away do they work, on those readers? I'm just curious. >> It depends on your speed. We've tested up to 200 miles an hour. And I think it's, like, 40-50 feet? So, as long as you're going under 200 miles an hour, we can get ya. >> Okay, so, how did you meet Sazzala in Datrium? How did that come about? >> We went looking for a product that could give us a one stop solution. We wanted something that was basically, I wanted to get out of the storage business, I wanted to get out of the management business. I didn't want to be having to worry about all these different vendors, all these different solutions. And Datrium was able to provide that. Compared to some of the other products that we were looking at, we did test with other products, and Datrium came out on top. They gave us the total package. >> Sazzala, when you looked at this oppurtunity, what did you see? Anything unique and different? What were some of the challenges that you tried to figure out how to help Kevin? >> So, what we are finding is that more and more companies, every company is a software company, every company is a data company, right? Every body wants to move faster. Everybody wants to things faster. I can't wait for my movie to start in two seconds. I'm like, Why is it taking two seconds? So, everybody wants things faster. We live in this instant economy where everything needs to be either you transform or you die. So, how do we make that transition into the speed? How do you build your data center, whatever your doing, to match that speed of innovation? Any system you're going to deploy in a data center, has to be not in the way. It has to be less management, less overhead. Look at Amazon, very successful because there is less to manage. And, you mostly manage your applications. That's what the business moral is going to be going forward. That's why people like the Cloud. Why does CIO like the Cloud? Not because it's cooler, or whatever, but because it makes things faster. It's expensive, yeah, but it makes things faster in some ways. >> Go ahead. >> I was going to say, on issue we ran into and we came to him with was our CAD designers. 'Cause we designed the product. And, the rendering was just dragging on our old systems. And, we went from two to three minutes rendering to seconds rendering new graphics. And, so, before they were like I'm not going to save it yet, I'm not going to re-render it. Now, they're re-rendering every time they're making a change. It helps in performance, it helps the application, and it helps increase the productivity of my CAD designers. >> Right. I was going to say, it was probably the customer service pretty significant, as well, so they can get the version that they want. >> Definitely, definitely. And, you know, the nice thing is is Datrium allowed us to scale. We couldn't go out and just Okay, revamp everything. You got to do baby steps. And Datrium gave us that scaleabilty, to where I could add anything from 1 to 128 nodes. You know, I was able to increase performance by just adding a server node, or increase the rights by adding a data node. That's the flexibilty that I needed from a vendor. >> So, when you said that Datrium had the whole package, you looked at some other solutions out there. When you were trying to find the whole package at the beginning of the process, what were the key attributes that you said I would love to get all these from one place? >> I was looking for performance and scale. Which I got. I was looking for back-up. God, I wanted to get out of the back-up business. I was tired of tapes, I was tired of third-party solutions. >> Tire of tapes? (laughs) >> Trust me. Shh, don't tell the tape vendors here. >> Tape is good, if you have the right application. >> Security, I stay awake at night. I lead our security teams. I stay awake worrying about Is my data protected? You know, with their encryption, that gave me that whole protection. And the last thing was DR. DR is adorned in every IT manager, every IT director, every, you know, CTO. And, with their whole Cloud shift, that DR? What DR, it's done. It just happens. And those four things is kind of what led us to finding Datrium. 'Cause some of them gave us one or two, but not everyone could give us all four of the options that we were looking for. >> What I love about the story is those are kind of concrete savings and doing your job easier. What your excited about is enabling your CAD designer, your kind of proactive sales process, your proactive design, your proactive innovation to actually move faster. That's not a cost saving mechanism. That's really a transformational, kind of positive revenue, side of the tale that I don't think is told enough. People focus on the cost savings and execution. That's not what it's about. It's really about innovating and growing your business faster. Do you think? >> Oh no, our ROI, that we calculated in, was just on hardware. Just on my cost savings that I could put a penny to. The time, it's so great. I mean, my CAD designers producing product faster, my developers are asking for more VMs. For me to spin up because the speed is so much faster. We're used to being Oh, don't touch it. I got this guy tuned exactly where I want it. We got the memory. But now, they're asking for more and more, and it's my in users, who are really the engineers, my manufacturing people, they're wanting more and more out of the product and Datirum is delivering. I don't go to dashboard and look to try and figure out how to tweak it anymore. I don't have any complaints. And, if I don't have any complaints, were doing something right. >> That's a good thing. >> So, it just works? >> Oh, it was beyond just works. >> Literally. >> Trust me, I was ready when we bought product to bring in a whole team and I was like, Oh, I'm going to have to hire all these people. And the guy came in and he goes, Okay, turn it on. Okay we're done. I was like, Nu-uh. He goes, Oh yeah, you have to plug that cord in back there. I was like, Wow. 'Cause, you know, usually it's-- >> I'm looking at a number right now, and it is 617% three year ROI. >> It's across many customers (mumbles) >> I totally believe you with what-- >> So we are aiming for a U.S. designer came and asked me one day, What should I aim for as a design principle? I said, We should aim for zero UI. That's what we should do. It should be transparent, it should just work. That's what we really aim for. I'm not saying we have zero UI today, but that's our goal. >> It's good to have goals. >> Let's just make it work automatically, right? That's kind of the goal. >> Well, and that was one thing, we wanted something integrated, so we didn't have to go looking. And, that's one thing I tell the engineers all the time. I go into the UI just to kind of see how cool the systems running. You know, because there is no issues. It just works. Everything's integrated, I don't have to go in and click and click and click and click to get through stuff. It just works and integrates well. We're a big Vmware shop, big Dell server shop. All of that, one-stop shop. I was telling Sazzala, you know, it's great when I get the e-mail that there's a problem with my Datrium system before my help desk is getting the notification. I can't buy that service. >> So, Kevin, there's a lot of peers that will be watching this show. Peers of you. Having gone through this process and now you are on the other side and you're on to some new things, in terms of innovation, what would you share with a peer whose trying to sort some of this out? It's a confusing landscape. There's so many options, and you got to do your day job, too. Besides, putting out new technology. What would you share with a peer if you're sitting down over a beverage on a Friday afternoon? >> You know, I would talk to them about having that capability, really a performance scale. Being able to not worry about controllers, not worrying about what SSDs you got to put into something to make it work. Pop 'em in. SSDs are cheap nowadays. Pop 'em in. It increases your reads. Going back to the whole no more third-party solutions for back-ups. Every SIS admin, every manager knows, back-ups are only good for restores. That's the only reason you do a back-up, is 'cause you got to do that restore. And, it becomes invisible. It's all running in the background. I don't even think about it anymore. My old systems, we still think about. That aren't on the Datrium product yet, but all our production (scoffs) When I'm backing up every hour, and my RTO almost becomes zero if something happens, you can't ask for that. That's critical, I think, for every manager, every director, even the SIS admins. No one wants to really think about back-ups. And, when you're comparing your products, take a look at that. How quick can you get something back up when that hard drive went out, you know? That's critical. And, of course, DR is, you know, everyone needs that checkbox checked for recovering. It just comes right away, with that. >> We've run out of time. Going to ask you the big question. Do you sleep better? >> Oh, much better. (laughs) Easily now. Yes. Now I get to worry about other things. Like keeping my CFO happy about something else. >> And, I've got a list of people we need to introduce to you. Definitely. >> Fortunately, you always move through your next point of failure. Once you fix one spot. Watch Lucy check out the chocolate-- >> Hey, but if I can have this one off my plate, that's one better for me. >> Well, Kevin, thanks a lot for telling your story. It's a really impressive story And, I'll think of you as I go across a Dumbarton Bridge some time. >> Think about that, yes! >> Absolutely. >> Thank you for having me. >> Sazzala, great to see you, as always. Lauren, lots of fun. I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCube. We're at AWS re:Invent 2018. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)

okay we're back live day 1 of IBM's information on demand this is silicon angles the cube our flagship program we'd go out the advanced district is stealing from the noise I'm John forums with my co-host de Valle ante as usual we are here to break down and extract the signal from the noise and share that with you and we'd love to have analysts ha we had Judith Horowitz on she's trending on the Twitter board and one other person who's also trending is merv adrian with Gardner Keeble um very authoritative in space welcome to have you great to have you back on the cube again seems like we just did this last week last week in big data NYC our event that was going on around strata conference on hadoop world kind of geeky hadoop meets business mainstream here at IBM what's your take on sleeve sat through the sessions we were following your tweets and just what's what's your what's your report card day one for IBM as always overwhelmingly large 13,000 i think is the number here it has to be seen to be believed if you've never been to one of these events and and you have some idea of the scale of these these venues in Vegas but you come out of an event room you come out of a ballroom you and you can't move in the hallway for three or four minutes subway is it is extraordinary the number of people who are here so those of us who've done it a few times have learned a few of the back ways through the garage up over the roof here way down the sounding lobes yeah but it's it's an amazing crowd it's an extraordinarily mixed crowd to your point John there's a lot of suits here a lot more suits in there were at strata a lot of people who are very interested in the business side and even in a session that I just SAT through that was talking about competitive displacements by IBM two of the people on the panel basically said look I didn't really want to hear too much about the technology it was as much about my relationship with the vendors I was working with as it was about the technology and that's always been one of IBM strengths is that they have a lifetime view of customer value and a they cultivate their relationship very carefully over the years so they do very well within their base their bigger challenge and what we're seeing here is how do they reach outside of that how do they reach the folks that are not already blue stack loyalists and get them to come over because they talk about how they're reaching out beyond that base but it's come correct and the ninety percent of the business if not more is with the blue stack is that a fair assertion I think the numbers are that something like eighty percent of IBM's revenue comes from twenty percent of IBM's customers yeah so right there even within their own base you're seeing a very strong concentration clearly they have a strong base in companies that have the highest of mainstream requirements for security and reliability the big banks and so on and that remains true but they're they're big focus in several of the speeches here was ease and simplicity and that's a story that has to be told with pictures and they didn't do that effectively today they did not do that effectively today if you want to tell me about how simple your GUI is and how easy it is to use your product for discovery then don't use five thousand words to do it put five pictures on the stage and show me family right they didn't do it ServiceNow tableau splunk listen there's it there's a great tool here called discover which IBM has that is a marvelous way for an entry point into the unstructured and new data that people are trying to work with that gives you a way to go play with it find something useful then persist something that will be of value which is the next the inevitable next step of most people's early Big Data experiments and right now that's an area where the Big Data community in general all those folks we saw at strata last week this is where things begin to break down for them right it's great for those first few experiments then you're going to make some architectural choices where am I going to persist the stuff that I'm going to use next week and the week after that and IBM has a great portfolio of pieces that can be put together to tell that story that's what they need to be doing and today I heard about the portfolio I didn't hear about that story I didn't I didn't hear a narrative and and the narrative is there to be told so I think they'll get better at me I think I think one thing that seems awkward but I mean seems really relevant but awkward the way there there we get this tomorrow maybe is the social business is a great story I mean that that kind of Tamia is the the face of the analytics which is geeky you know value chain process improvement but the social business kind of hits the rubber meets the road it's the user shaking their smartphone and getting analytics women you know some chat application or you know the real change is on the society did they tease that out today are they saving that no I think they get it very very effectively in multiple places in financial services in health care in smart metered solutions for the industrial Internet the same things we're hearing elsewhere what they're doing very effectively is pulling out the stories where people have had that kind of an impact again the challenge is to show people you can do this too so that was one of the best things said from the from the podium by our host today the guy from the National Geographic his name escapes me jhon Jason fake yes shake Jake poorly horwich he was wonderful he did a great opening and he put up some wonderful visualizations and he said you know this is about big dad look at how they've combined this data with geography you know wouldn't it be great if you can do it too you can do it too I was it was good perfectly staged he just conveyed it very very lawful school PowerPoint users are you know still clutched to text and seven bullets in the title and you know 14 fonts just make him 24 point please yeah no more than five so Ashley it's a tough story to tell I mean to me my takeaway I want to get your opinion on this from both you guys this is a complex story to tell talking about big data analytics gonna do from everything else under the covers blu acceleration you got cloud and mobile which are under the hood a lot of technology issues their nuances data governance information government and the social business as a paradigm mind-blowing paradigm shift to try to tell that together as hard the same time they get customers deploying this stuff and giving successes on top of it so that's of a business outcomes that consultative journey and the implementation at productions scale I need all those things Janet the one makes for a hard story well at evens it depends on how you tell it if you tell it as a story and if you abstract away from the complexities of of an extraordinarily large product portfolio then there's a message to be told there then there's another message to be told when you do get into the details of the product portfolio iBM has to do both and sometimes they seemed caught between skills and crackers you know right by half pregnant you know stuck in the middle what everyone say yeah you feel that that day one kind of stuck in the middle or I think they hit elements of both ends of the spectrum but spend a lot of time kind of in between them not quite doing enough on either end that said I think it all depends on what you bring to the conversation I I wandered in really not intentionally to one of the enterprise content management sessions that's not really my sweet spot but it was a great discussion and it was a discussion that as they discussed unstructured data sounded very much like what us db8 style geeks are talking about over on the on the Hadoop side of the house with a different set of business issues but being realized and driving value at least if not more effectively and especially with the connection to the social side of things so they've got the story we were talking about the 8020 before yeah 90 10 or whatever it is Desai him actually have to move beyond that base to succeed I mean most businesses if less their startups get most of their business from their existing customers sure it's a great question what's your definition of success and I talked to the guys in the various Wall Street firms all the time and they're always worried about the change in the slope of the curve it's the area under the curve that matters right there's a lot of money down there underneath that line there's a lot of customer value there's a lot of recurring revenue and IBM's doing just fine there do they need to have a much larger user base of lots and lots of new users today well I don't think so but it wouldn't hurt what and it and it's awfully nice to be able to position yourself as leading people into the future as opposed to being the place where they'll go when they grow up and I think a lot of people today as their systems do mature and require these these more significant enterprise class features will inevitably migrated to my IBM technologies that can answer us but the area under the curve dilemma right you get Amazon it makes last quarter made seven million dollars in a 70 75 million dollar billion-dollar company maybe seven million in profit and the stock goes up by IBM throws off you know more cash free cash flow than an IBM said from the stage today that their bare metal implementation performs twice as well as Amazon's and now I haven't benchmark that but that's a nice assertion to be a munich performance is that why people go to the cloud though right that's probably not where they go there at first of an interesting data point gotta but I put but your performance is a second-order variable meeting if everything's equal first I first I explore I discover I find value once i do and i put this into production then I start thinking about how can I do this more cost-effectively how can I do it with better performance how can I make it more stable secure reliable that's when people come to IBM and there's still well positioned for answering those questions when those questions come up competition out there for these guys obviously we were talking about softlayer as a bolt-on try to figure out cloud damn I on it I'm not what's your take on their moves in the cloud and just cut their relative to their competition not my sweet spot but i think that IBM has the assets and the and the spread and the portfolio to be a formidable competitor there if they choose to go there the interesting challenge for anybody who wants to compete with Amazon is Amazon stated mission right we will be the low-margin supplier can you think of another I tea vendor who says that yeah and advil and by the way and by the way they're innovating yeah and they're disrupting and innovating and we'll go push to commoditize margin to them to the close to zero I think their margins are a lot higher than people may realize too much well their shift in the margins they seem to be able to drop their prices pretty frequently go crisscross doesn't everybody Merv they just don't announce that they don't market the fact right Evan doesn't doesn't everybody's price drop every quarter no no in a word with the cost of a choose a new product and increase my boss to compute and storage drops every quarter saying they don't pass it on to customers shocking isn't it you guys kept him honest on them yeah we tried they tried we do our best but then there's always new features they can add to the product and charge for okay remember we got to wrap up we'd have just got started you all right now you have you on the cube okay hey Lucy tomorrow I'm sure this huge segment we've ever done referred that's okay I know we haven't we had the pressure because the analysts dinner from in he chew it wants to come on and me for your tight defer to the lady anytime she's a rock star and the cube alumni she's been on more times than you but all you're catching up to her yeah I'm with my best you know I'm trending thanks guys Merv Adrian analyst at gardner bender on the block seeing many many cycles excited about what iBM has needs to kind of clean up their their position get more data and products don't get stuck in the middle and just good stuff though IBM got good review from Merv here on the cube we'll be right back after this short break with our next guest the cube