>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Hello everybody, welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage. We go out to the events. Of course, in this case we do so virtually, to extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Vellante and now we're going to talk about the intersection of business success and sustainability. It's hot topic. We have a great panel for you. With me are Ally Karmali, Sustainability and Climate Practice Lead at IBM Canada. Lucy Baunay is a Senior Consultant in Customer Experience and Sustainability Strategy, also from IBM Canada, and Keric Morris, Executive Partner, Enterprise Strategy Global Energy and Sustainability Lead, IBM UK. Folks, welcome to the panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Maybe Lucy, you could kick it off to talk about what is sustainability and how has it all of a sudden become such a hot topic amongst leadership? >> Yeah, sure. So first off, it's actually my pleasure that sustainability has finally become a trendy topic, and is now a key imperative in the business world. The pandemic really played a role in it, as it made people realize that there's an intricate link between global scale events, like the climate crisis, leading to the acceleration of viruses spreads and their own personal health or of their business. So sustainability really means that you're addressing the needs of the present without compromising the needs of future generations. To do so, companies use different frameworks and standards including ESG, standing for environmental, social, and governance criteria to really assess their progress on their journey to sustainability. It comes with many metrics that they track, or should track and choose to disclose for the greater benefit of all. One prerequisite I'd say to really building a successful sustainable company, is really the need for a new form of leadership style. One that is purpose driven, that really focuses on doing well, while doing the right thing. And I mean, you might need examples here to illustrate what I'm saying. You could take a Unilever, and the really radical transformation of the Palm oil industry they're leading. If Unilever did nothing, serious risk would really be posed in a few years on their whole business. So, the company has started working with all actors across its value chain, from training farmers, to building alliances with competitors and stakeholders. And you know, what Unilever is doing for the palm industry is actually cementing its reputation as an innovator. And they're already reaping the benefits of having, you know, being first movers. >> Dave: Right. Kerick, Lucy talked about an imperative, so take away there, it's not a checkbox, it's something that's sort of designed in. I wonder if you could, you could talk to that. >> Yeah. And I mean, sustainability at the end of the day now, it's built into every decision every process, every system, and you know, and leadership role in that space is about, you know, kind of developing new corporate strategies, new cultures, new approaches, which are around, you know, actually how do I sort of do this? This it's a real paradigm shift. It's not, it's not something you add to your business. It's something that needs to be core to your business. And then, you know, and that's requiring us to kind of re-imagining how we sort of go to work, how we do business, the processes, developing new products, leveraging new technologies. It's putting all of those pieces in and sort of making them work. And, and the key part of that is how do you do this in a way where we're not forcing people to make a choice between sustainability and profitability. Sustainability and, you know, and a way of quality of life. So there's how you kind of build that into kind of the core products and services. And again, use that ingenuity to kind of develop those, and sort of develop the components that you need to as part of that process. The other part of this is then sort of getting into, well actually from a leadership perspective, now how do I then change, and the way that I sort of work with with partners, with suppliers, with competitors. So it's, it's really fundamentally changing the way the business itself works as well. >> Dave: Yeah. Thank you. You know, Ally I, when I talk about ESG, I sometimes tongue in cheek say Milton Friedman's probably rolling over in his grave, cause he's the economist who said that the only job of a company is to make profits and drive shareholder value. And so that's a, I mean, that's a historical challenge, but there's, there's actually a business case for this. It's actually a good business. And we'll talk about that, but maybe you could address some of the challenges that organizations are facing to really lean in and address ESG. >> Yeah, that's right. You know, there are a lot of components that go into this. So then, as Lucy mentioned and Keric mentioned, the complexities that come with that, are a lot. They're significant. And so I'd say that the first challenge that I see is in regards to the alignment and integration of sustainability strategy within the organization's business model. So if we take a look at the typical life cycle, which includes sourcing, production, operations, distribution, and then end of life and recycling, each of these components must consider the conduits for driving positive social impact and environmental stewardship. But that also, as you said, drives opportunity and economic benefits for the organization. So these are components that could fall into three categories. The first one is what is the journey to net zero look like for you? How will I transform my operations, my strategy, my business models to achieve a net zero emission? What is circularity in the context of my business? How do I orchestrate for zero waste and include reuse regenerative processes restorative processes? And then how do I build in principles of sustainability into the design so that I integrate those components into the ways of working within this new world of sustainability that we're seeing? It's also the what and the how coming together to enable long-term value creation for the company. The second challenge that I see is around the performance monitoring and management. And as they say, you can't manage what you can't measure. And so many organizations might not have the complexity roadmap laid out for the systems and data that's required in order to enable a transparent and quality reporting. We think about data and knowing what you have, versus what you don't, data management, capturing and transforming that data, integrating that data in a way that has a simple but effective use of methodologies, as well as benchmarking. And then having a reporting system that allows you to see everything, almost a control tower of your E, your S, and your G. And then finally we see sustainability has become a board level priority. It is a hot topic, but it's not always properly understood below the board level. So senior executives sometimes approach the conformance to change in the way that we normally approach things like regulation. But I think in this case, it's quite, it's quite different. Because it is a bit of a shift to the person with a purpose, as the center leaders must lead, they must hire they must think design and share. You must meet the (indistinct) paradigms for diversity inclusion. And I think at the same time, encourage diversity, but also divergence where it needs to be. They have to have the head space to accept the truth, and the collaboration with all stakeholders. So I think there are ways for companies to do this and, and for them to be successful. And I think IBM is one of them >> Dave: For sure. And I think Keric, that sort of leads me to it from what Ally was saying about, you know, IBM, big company, has a big ecosystem. There are other large leaders within industry's that can leverage ecosystems, and then maybe set the tone and show the, point the way for the long tail of smaller companies. But maybe you could talk about that ecosystem flywheel. >> What we are also seeing is it's actually sort of quite a lot of differences between the way organizations are addressing this. And you are seen as leaders in this space. Then you ask these people, you're taking a stand around these components and actually trying to shape just not only what they do, but also what organizations do around them. Now, I mean, you know, and if you kind of look at this, there's almost kind of three categories to that, there are organizations that are sort of seeing this as an existential change, you know, if I'm looking at sort of mining, I'm looking at oil and gas I'm looking at travel and transport. Now what you're still seeing there is a fundamental shift in their business. That's requiring them to rethink how they do things in a very structured and actually quite an extended way. You know, if I'm looking at other organizations like retailers, it's actually a little less of of an existential change, it's more of an incremental one. But even so they still have to change all that they do, but they can do it in a, probably a more, staged approach. And then you've got influencers around that as well. So governments, financial services, players, et cetera, who are sort of shaping the agenda and who need help, and support around and thinking through how they kind of measure the change, how they sort of make sure the funding is seeing the right things, how they make, how they make sure they're actually still getting returns they expect. And actually, you know, the sustainability components are actually being driven by that. But I think that's, that's kind of sort sort of where an organization like IBM comes in. There's a lot of technical change in here. There's a lot of data change in here. And actually, these are the sorts of things that, you know, from a sustainability perspective are going to help to drive this in a more seamless and an achievable way, if you will. And so there's an awful lot that we're looking to try to do to enable that quickly to kind of take things off the shelf to, to rapidly test and to actually sort of show people both what, what can be done and the value that you then can create by sort of going down the sustainability journey. >> Okay, got it. Thank you. And Lucy, you touched on some examples at a high level in your opening remarks, and I'm interested in, kind of the starting point that you see companies, you know, taking and what's the right regime? I mean, you've got to put somebody, if somebody's going to be accountable for the measurements and the, and the, the cultural changes, but, but where do we start? >> Right. So one starting point is definitely to be looking at your data right? And, you know, it's, it's really tempting to forget when you're building products, or you're creating experiences, it's tempting to forget thinking about their repercussions on the environment, on communities, and on society. Their impact is, is made invisible for the sake of immediate user satisfaction, and short-term business value. And, you know, although 60% of executives consider sustainability to be an essential competitive advantage, 80% actually, other products ecological impacts are locked in at the design phase. So that's why, you know, with a team of four IBM superstars we've created the sustainable design thinking toolkit that was just launched and is in the process being integrated into the official IBM design thinking site. And that's really a great start, because it's meant to help design thinking practitioners take responsibility on making that impact visible from the very start of the process. And we've used it with multiple clients and for internal products and it's really helped infuse a sustainable mindset throughout the workflows. And, and actually from the very, very start of it. One recent example was in the CPG industry where we've applied our new sustainable design thinking activities to the problem at hand, to get consumers to recycle more by enhancing their recycling experience. And what it allowed us to do, is really to make sure that, you know, the prioritization process, as the first ideas that emerged, included sustainable value into the mix, so that the impact on the planet and communities wasn't a blind spot anymore. >> Dave : So, thank you for that Lucy, Keric I wonder, you know Lucy was talking about, you start with the data and that, that's cool. Sometimes, I get worried though, there's going to be analysis by paralysis and overthinking the strategy. Are there ways to, are there ways to get in and, and take smaller bites and iterate? What do, what are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there absolutely are, you know, with, with lots of organizations, they really have to kind of feel their way into this, this, this new approach. You know, you actually kind of have to learn both what sustainability means, but also sort of what it can deliver. So, you know, usually what we're sort of seeing is those organizations will start off with things which are under their control. So how can I change my manufacturing processes? How can I change some of the internal components of what it is that we do, to make them more sustainable, to, to reduce waste, to reduce sort of, kind of, the energy usage components, which associates with it, and those, that's quite a nice controlled starting point, using, you know, leveraging things like sort of manufacturing 4.0 intelligence processes, you know, (indistinct) sorry, Maximo Asset Management type approaches. The second step we're sort of seeing with lots of organizations. Is that they're then moving into, kind of their own ecosystem if you will. So, you know, actually, how do I manage my supply chain more effectively? How do I drive transparency? How do I, sort of also, drive efficiency and carbon management from that sort of perspective? but also, how do I sort of highlight the sustainable gains I'm making on my products and get those messages to customers and highlights of what we're doing with both new products and services, but also, with existing products and services. And then sort of your, your, kind of your final piece, then actually, this depends on, and it kind of goes back to what I was saying before, about what industry you're in, but, you know, a lot of industries are also having to, kind of, face the challenge of, I need to change fundamentally. You know, the business I'm in is not, not going to work the way it works in a sustainable world. So, so actually, how do I kind of build an ecosystem based approach? How do I kind of work with other partners? How do I kind of work with suppliers? How do I work with competitors? And actually, how do I build something at scale around a platform? And it will just be able to deliver these types of things? And at IBM, we've been kind of creating some of those, those platforms, and then scaling them quite rapidly, sort of across a variety of different sectors. >> Dave: Yeah, and that's where you're going to see the measurable impact. Ally, do you have a framework for what's, what a successful outcome looks like? Are there, are there companies that are sort of models of success? I mean, I think IBM is one of them, but maybe you could talk to that. >> Yeah. There are definitely companies to emulate, and companies have really started to think about the, the connection point between the value that's driven by their business model, as well as the effort and the impact that's being driven by their ESG, their ESG focus. And so, while there might be components of success, I think getting, getting it all together and all right is going to take time. And it's going to be a bit of a sequence. But a bit of a thought experiment, If you could sit into a boardroom, or at a senior level executive discussion, when you think about success, would you hear things or discussions around how the company is building the environmental and social inputs to its products and services? And what does that sound like? Are they tangible? Are they realistic? And what are the methods and the tools that they're using? Would you hear conversations about how the company is evaluating or infusing sustainability across the value chain from procurement all the way to end of life? Or how about the participation of the company into other ecosystems that's driving value into other industries? And we see the force multiplier effect that comes with that when, when companies partner together, because we are either vendors or providers, or consumers of every other product or service. And then I think lastly, would organizations start to think about how to generate value closer to home and how that value can be driven into communities, into where their employees are based. And those elements really, really improve the social elements. So what say lasts is there are elements of what good and success looks like when it comes to sustainability, but I think organizations can set their targets and meet industry benchmarks and frameworks which already exist and are really well established, but continuously increase their own targets to set better and more ambitious goals for themselves, to move beyond, to leverage technology, and be innovative and, and apply these, these tools and best practices in order to get there. And I think, and I think, I think we'll get there over time. So I'm really encouraged by the progress that we're seeing and, and, we hope at IBM to help accelerate that journey. >> Thank you. And Lucy, one of the things I'm excited about is the tech because this is where I think, you know, this business does meet sustainability. I mean, green tech, E.V. I mean, if I'm a nation, I want to be on top of that. If I'm a company, I think there's opportunities for invention and innovation. Can you talk about some of those innovative techs that we're likely to see? >> Right. Well, yeah, to piggy back on what Alex was just saying, and, you know, I think success can, can come in very different ways and forms, you know, be it creating entirely new business models, like, you know, some clients we help in the oil and gas industry, taking really bold commitments to shift to energy, electric energy. Or, you know significantly cutting costs such as, you know, those brands in the CPG industry that are doing amazing things to optimize their supply chains and make them more efficient, more transparent, more secure. Or, you know also protecting brand reputation and mitigating risks, or gaining market share by creating, differentiating value. You might've heard about L'Oreal taking really bold moves, and switching all their products to 95% renewable plant sources and circular processes. You know, it, it, can also be about capturing value, by charging a premium for sustainable products. Think about Tesla or whole foods, for example. I mean there's so many great examples out there already. >> Dave: Excellent. So we got to wrap it, so my last question, and I want to start with Ally, and then we'll go to Keric, and then Lucy, you can bring us home. Talk about why, you were talking about ESG reporting and transparency, and how it's, you know, great for the future and the economy and so forth. Why is this not going to be a fad? Why is it going to be sustainable? The sustainability, the sustainability of sustainable. Ally, please kick it off. And then we'll go to Keric and then Lucy >> You're right. You know, this is a big change for organizations. And I think naturally they're, you know, they're corporate social responsibility and, and, sustainability reports have really been externally focused. And I think that has been a great step in the right direction, but I think what's happening now is, is this convergence of sustainable material and transparent reporting, that is equivalent to material financial reporting that we're seeing. And, and eventually I think the end goal would be to be able to read a sustainable report and understand, and quantify, as well as qualify how much impact is an organization making year to year? And what are some of the initiatives that's driving what we have begun to see as a sustainable business strategy that is also a competitive advantage for organizations. So I think, the, the benefit in the long-term is going to create a lot of value for not just the shareholder but for the stakeholders like employees, like the communities in which these companies operate, like regulatory agencies, as well as municipal, federal governments, and state governments. So I think this is a step in the right direction for providing a very clear direction on their sustainable initiatives. >> Dave: Thank you. Thank you, Ally. Keric, could you weigh in here please? >> Yeah, I mean, I agree with all Ally said there, and I think with the stakeholders, the end of the day, this, this is a collective responsibility. You know, we have one planet, one rock we all live on, and we all need to be part of the process of actually sort of making it, making a change. And, and, you can't, you can't sort of change what you can't measure. So they're kind of holding people to account being able to share sort of the data that we've got, making sure everybody understands what the position is, how we're contributing and the role that we're actually still playing, is going to be an incredibly important part of collectively coming together, then making this change happen, and making this change happen quickly. Which is what it needs to do. >> Dave: Hey, Lucy, your passion shines through here. So it's appropriate that you, you close it out. >> Yeah, well, it all comes down to, you know, do you want your business to still exist in a hundred years from now? And you know, it does require courage and determination, but we all have it in ourselves. You know, trying to find the ways that we can change things for the greater good, find the energy in yourself to inspire others to act. That's why, you know, leaders with purpose and ingenuity are so, so, important today. Thank you. >> Folks, thanks so much for the perspectives you guys doing a great work. Really appreciate your time on the Cube today. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right. It's been our pleasure and thank you for watching. This is the Cube's coverage of IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. We'll be right back. (cheerful music)

>>from around the >>globe. >>It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >>Hello buddy. Welcome back to I didn't think 28 21 this is the cubes ongoing coverage. We go out to the events of course, in this case we do so virtually to extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Volonte and now we're gonna talk about the intersection of business success and sustainability. It's hot topic. We have a great panel for you with me, our ali Carr molly, sustainability and climate practice lead at IBM Canada lucy Bonet is a senior consultant and customer experience and sustainability strategy. Also from IBM Canada and Carrick Morris. Executive Partner, Enterprise Strategy. Global Energy and sustainability lead. IBM UK folks welcome to the panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe lucy, you could kick it off to talk about what is sustainability and how has it all of a sudden becomes such a hot topic amongst leadership? >>Yeah. Sure. Um So first off it's actually my pleasure that sustainability has finally become a trendy topic and is now a key imperative in the business world. Um The pandemic really played a role in it as it made people realize uh that there's an intricate link between global scale events like the climate crisis leading to the acceleration of viruses spread and their own personal health or of their business. So sustainability really means that you're addressing the needs of the present without compromising the needs of future generations to do so. Companies use different frameworks uh and and standards including E. S. G. Standing for environmental social and governance criteria to really assess their progress on their journey to sustainability. It comes with many metrics that they track or should track and choose to disclose for the greater benefit of all. Um One prerequisite I'd say to really building a successful sustainable company is really the need for a new form of leadership style, one that is the purpose driven that really focuses on doing well while doing the right thing. And I mean, you you might need uh examples here to illustrate what I'm saying. Um you can take uh union lever and the really radical transformation of the palm oil industry they're leading. Um if Unilever did nothing serious risk would really be posed in a few years on the whole business. So the company has started working with all actors across its value chain, from training farmers to building alliances with competitors and stakeholders. And you know what union lever is doing for the polymetal industry is actually cementing its reputation as an innovator and they're already reaping the benefits of having been first movers >>Carrick, uh lucy talked about an imperative, so take away there is not a checkbox, it's something that's sort of designed in. I wonder if you could, you could talk to that. >>Yeah, I mean sustainability at the end of the day now is built into every decision, every process, every system. Um and you know and leadership role in that space is about some kind of developing new corporate strategies, new cultures, new approaches which are around, you know, actually, how do I do this? It's a real paradigm shift, it's not it's not something you add to your business, it's something that needs to be called to your business and then you know, that's requiring us to kind of re imagining, you know, how we sort of go work, how we could help you do business? The process is developing new products, leveraging new technologies, it's putting all of those pieces in and sort of making them work and, you know, and the key part of it is how do you do this in a way where we're not forcing people to make a choice between sustainability and profitability, sustainability and you know, and in a way of quality of life. So that's how you kind of build that into kind of the core products and services and again use that ingenuity to kind of develop those and sort of developed, you know, the components that you need to as part of that process. And the other part of this is then getting into, well, actually from a leadership perspective, how do I then change and the way that I work with partners with suppliers, with competitors. So it's it's really fundamentally changing the way the business itself works as well. >>Thank you. Uh you know, ali when I talk about DSG I sometimes tongue in cheek say, Milton Friedman's probably rolling over in his grave because he's the the economist who said that the only job of a company is to make profits and drive shareholder value. And so that's, I mean that's a that's a that's a historical challenge. Uh But there's there's actually a business case for this. Uh It's actually good business and we'll talk about that. But maybe you could address some of the challenges that organizations are facing to really lean in and address. E. S. G. >>Yeah, that's right. You know, there are a lot of components to go into this and as lucy mentioned and Carrick mentioned the complexities that come with that are a lot of their significant. And so I'd say that the first challenge that I see is in regards to the alignment and integration of sustainability strategy within the organization's business model. So if we take a look at the typical life cycle which includes sourcing, production operations, distribution, and then end of life and recycling. Each of these components must consider the conduits for driving positive social impact and environmental stewardship, but that also as you said, drives opportunity and economic benefits for the organization. Um so these are components that could fall into three categories. The first one is what is the journey to net zero look like for you? How will I transform my operations, my strategy, my business models to achieve a net zero emission? What is circularity in the context of my business? How do I orchestrate for zero waste, include reuse regenerative processes, restorative processes, and then how do I build in principles of sustainability into the design, so that I integrate those components into the ways of working within this new world of sustainability that we're seeing. It's also the what and how coming together to enable long term value creation for the company. The second challenge that I see is around the performance monitoring and management and as they say, you can't manage what you can't measure and so many organizations might not have the complexity roadmap laid out for the systems and data that's required in order to enable transparent and quality reporting. We think about data knowing what you have versus what you don't um data management capturing and transform that data, integrating that data in a way that has a simple but effective use of methodologies as well as benchmarking and then having a reporting system that allows you to see everything almost a control tower of your E your S and your G. And then finally we see sustainability has become a board level priority. It is a hot topic but it's not always properly understood below the board level, so senior executives sometimes approach uh uh the the informants to change in the way that we normally approach things like regulation, but I think in this case it's quite it's quite different because it is a bit of a shift to the person with purpose as the center leaders must lead, they must hire, they must think design and share, they must meet the count paradigms for diversity inclusion. Um And I think at the same time encourage diversity, but also divergence where it needs to be, they have to have the headspace to accept the truth in the collaboration with all stakeholders. Um So I think there are ways for companies to do this and and and for them to be successful and I think I am is one of them >>uh for sure, and I think Carrick, that sort of leads me from what allie was saying about, you know, IBM big company has a big ecosystem. There are other large leaders within industry that can leverage ecosystems and it may be set the tone and show the point the way for the long tail of smaller companies. But maybe you could talk about that ecosystem flywheel. What >>we are saying is is actually sort of quite a lot of differences between the way organizations are addressing this and you are seeing some leaders in this space and you are seeing people who are taking a stand around around >>these components and actually trying to shape >>just not only what they do, but also what organizations do around them. Um I mean, you know if you kind of look at this, there's there's almost kind of three categories so that there are organizations that are sort of seeing this as an existential change. You know, if I'm looking at some mining and looking at oil and gas, I'm making your travel and transport, you know what you're still seeing, there is a fundamental shift in their business, requiring them to rethink how they do things in a very structured, um and actually quite an extended way. You know, if I'm looking at other organizations like retailers, it's actually a little less of uh an existential changes, that's more of an incremental one. But even so, they still have to change all that. They do that. They can do it in a probably a more staged approach and then you've got influences around that as well. So governments and financial services players, etcetera, who are sort of shaping the agenda and who need help and support around thinking through how they kind of measure the change, how they sort of make sure the financing the right things, and they make how they make sure they're actually getting returns they expect. And actually, the sustainability components are actually being driven by that. And I think that's that's kind of sort of where an organization like IBM comes in there, there's a lot of technical change in here, there's a lot of data change in here. And actually these are the sorts of things that, you know, from students sustainability perspective are going to help to to drive this in a more seamless and achievable way if you will. Um and so there's an awful lot that we're looking to try to do, to enable that quickly, to kind of take things off the shelf to rapidly test and to actually show people both what can be done and the value then can create by going down the sustainability journey. >>Okay. Got it. Thank you. And lucy you touched on some examples at a high level in your opening remarks. Uh and I'm interested in in kind of the starting point that you see cos you know taking uh and what's the right regime, I mean you've got to put somebody somebody's gonna be accountable for the measurements and the and the cultural changes. But but where do we start? >>Right. So one starting point is definitely uh to be looking at your data right? And uh you know it's it's really tempting to forget when you're building products or you're creating experiences. It's attempting to forget thinking about their repetitions on the environment, on communities and on society. Um Their impact is made invisible for the sake of immediate user satisfaction and short term business value. And you know although 60% of executives consider sustainability to be an essential competitive advantage, 80 actually of the products ecological impacts are locked in at the design phase. So, um that's why, you know, with with a team of four IBM superstars, um we've created the sustainable design thinking toolkit uh that was just launched and is in the process of being integrated into the official IBM design thinking uh site. And and that's really a great start because it's meant to help design thinking practitioners take responsibility on making that impact visible from the very start of the process. And we've used it with multiple clients and for internal projects. And, you know, it's really helped infuse a sustainable mindset throughout the workflows and and actually from the very, very start of it. Um one recent example was in the CPG industry where we've applied renew a sustainable design thinking activities to the problem at hand uh to get consumers to recycle more by enhancing their recycling experience. And what it allowed us to do is really to make sure that, you know, the prioritization process of the first ideas that emerged included sustainable value into the mix, so that the impact on the planet and communities wasn't a blind spot anymore. >>So, thank you for that. Uh Carrick, I wonder, you know, lucy was talking about you start with the data and that that's that's cool. I sometimes I get worried though there's going to be analysis by paralysis and overthinking the strategy. Are there ways to are there ways to get in and and and take smaller bites and iterate what what are your thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I mean, I think they're absolutely, and you know, with with lots of organizations, they really have to kind of feel their way into this, this, this new approach. You know, you actually kind of have to learn both what sustainability means, but also sort of what it can deliver. So, you know, usually what we're sort of seeing is these organizations will start to start off with things which are under their control, so how can I change my manufacturing processes? How can I change some of the internal components of what it is that we do to make them more sustainable to reduce waste, to reduce sort of kind of the energy usage components which are associated with. And that's that's quite a nice controlled starting point using leveraging things like manufacturing, 4.0, intelligent processes, massive, maximum maximum asset management type approaches. Um The second step we're sort of seeing with lots of organizations is that they then moving into kind of their own ecosystem if you will. So actually, how do I manage my supply chain more effectively? How do I drive transparency? How do I sort of also drive efficiency and and kind of carbon management from that sort of perspective. But also how do I sort of highlight the sustainable gains I'm making on my products and and get those messages to customers and highlights of what we're doing with both new products and services, but also with the existing products and services and then sort of your, your kind of your final piece. And actually this depends what kind of goes back to what I was saying before about what industry you're in. But, you know, a lot of industries are also having to kind of face the challenge of any to change fundamentally. You know, the business I'm in is not not going to work the way it works in a sustainable world. So, so actually, how do I kind of build an ecosystem based approach? How do I kind of work with other partners? How do I kind of work with suppliers? How do women competitors actually, how do I build something at scale around the platform in order to be able to deliver these types of things? And IBM, we've been kind of creating some of those, those platforms and then scaling them quite rapidly across a variety of different sectors >>and that's where you're gonna see the measurable impact. Ali do you have a framework for what was a successful outcome looks like? Are there are there companies that are sort of models of success? I mean, I think IBM is one of them, but maybe you could talk to that. >>Yeah, there are definitely companies to emulate, and companies have really started to think about the connection point between the value that's driven by their business model, as well as the effort and the impact that's being driven by there S g uh there? S you focus and so while there might be components of success, I think getting, getting it all together and all right is going to take time and it's going to be a bit of a sequence. Um but a bit of a thought experiment, if you could sit into a boardroom or at a senior level executive discussion when you think about success, would you hear things or discussions around how the company is building the environmental and social inputs to its products and services and what does that sound like? Are they tangible? Are they realistic? And what are the methods and the tools that they're using? Um Would you hear conversations about how the company is evaluating or infusing sustainability across the value chain from procurement all the way to end of life, or how about the participation of the company into other ecosystems that's driving value into other industries. And we see the force multiplier effect that comes with that when companies partner together because we are either vendors or providers or consumers of every other product or service. And then I think lastly, would organizations start to think about how to generate value closer to home and how that value can be driven into communities into where their employees are based and those elements really really improve the social elements. So let's say last is there are elements of what good and success looks like when it comes sustainability. Um but I think organizations can set their targets uh meat industry benchmarks and frameworks which already exist and are really well established um but continuously increase their own targets to set better and more ambitious goals for themselves to move beyond, to leverage technology and be innovative and and apply uh these these tools and best practices in order to get there. Uh And I think um and I think I think we'll get there over time, so I'm really encouraged by the progress that we're seeing. Uh and we hope that IBM to help accelerate that journey. >>Thank you and then lucy one of these, I'm excited about the tech because this is where I think, you know, business does meet sustainability mean green tech E. V. I mean, if if I'm a nation, I want to be on top of that. If I'm a company, I think there's opportunities for invention and innovation. Can you talk about some of those innovative texts that we're likely to see >>right? Um Well, yeah, but to pick you back on on what Allah is just saying and, you know, I think success can can come in very different ways and forms. Um you know, be it creating entirely new business models like, you know, some clients we help in the colon gas industry Taking really bold commitments to shift to energy, electric energy. Um or you know, significantly cutting costs such as, you know, those brands and the CPG industry that are doing amazing things to optimize their supply chains and make them more efficient, more transparent, more secure. Um or you know, also protecting brand reputation and mitigating risks or gaining market share by creating differentiating value. You might have heard about Loreal taking really bold moves and switching all their products to 95 renewable plant sources and circular processes. Um you know, it it can also be about capturing value by charging a premium for sustainable products. Think about Tesla or whole foods for example. I mean there's so many great examples out there already. >>Excellent. So we gotta wrap it. So, my last question and I'll start with ali and then we'll go to Carrick and lucy you can bring us home talk about why you were talking about STD reporting and transparency and how it's great for the future and in the economy and so forth. Why is this not gonna be a fad? Why is it going to be sustainable sustainability? The sustainability of sustainable uh please kick it off and then we'll go to karaoke and then lucy >>you're right. You know, this is a big change for organizations and I think naturally their uh their corporate social responsibility. Um and sustainability reports have really been externally focused and I think that has been a great step in the right direction. Um but I think what's happening now is is this convergence of sustainable material and transparent reporting that is equivalent to material financial reporting that we're seeing. And eventually I think the end goal would be to be able to read a sustainable report and understand and quantify as well as qualify how much impact is an organization making year to year. And what are some of the initiatives that's driving? What we have begun to see is a sustainable business strategy. That is also a competitive advantage for organizations. So I think the benefit in the long term is going to create a lot of value for not just the shareholder, but for the stakeholders like employees, like the communities in which these companies operate, like regulatory agencies as well as municipal, federal governments and state government. So I think this is a step in the right direction for providing a very clear direction on their sustainable initiatives. >>Thank you. Thank you. Ali Carrick, can you weigh in here, please? >>Yeah, I mean, I I agree with all that he said there and I think with the stakeholders and the end of the day this this is a collective responsibility. You know, we have one planet one rock we all live on and we all need to be part of the process of actually making it, making it change. And you can't you can't sort of change what you can't measure. So kind of holding people to account, being able to share some of the data that we've got, making sure everybody understands what the position is, how we're contributing um and and the role that we're actually still playing is going to be an incredibly important part of collectively coming together and making this change happen, and making this change happen quickly, which is what it needs to do >>and lucy your passion shines through here so it's appropriate that you close it out. >>Mhm. Yeah, well it all comes down to you know, do you want your business to still exist in 100 years from now and you know it does require courage and determination but we all have it in ourselves. Um you know, trying to find the ways that we can change things for the greater good, find the energy in yourself to inspire others to act. That's why you know, leaders with purpose and ingenuity are so so important today. Thank you >>folks. Thanks so much for the perspectives guys doing a great work, really appreciate your time on the cube today. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us >>All right, it's been our pleasure and thank you for watching. This is the cubes coverage of IBM think 2021, the virtual edition will be right back.