>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Hello everybody, welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage. We go out to the events. Of course, in this case we do so virtually, to extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Vellante and now we're going to talk about the intersection of business success and sustainability. It's hot topic. We have a great panel for you. With me are Ally Karmali, Sustainability and Climate Practice Lead at IBM Canada. Lucy Baunay is a Senior Consultant in Customer Experience and Sustainability Strategy, also from IBM Canada, and Keric Morris, Executive Partner, Enterprise Strategy Global Energy and Sustainability Lead, IBM UK. Folks, welcome to the panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Maybe Lucy, you could kick it off to talk about what is sustainability and how has it all of a sudden become such a hot topic amongst leadership? >> Yeah, sure. So first off, it's actually my pleasure that sustainability has finally become a trendy topic, and is now a key imperative in the business world. The pandemic really played a role in it, as it made people realize that there's an intricate link between global scale events, like the climate crisis, leading to the acceleration of viruses spreads and their own personal health or of their business. So sustainability really means that you're addressing the needs of the present without compromising the needs of future generations. To do so, companies use different frameworks and standards including ESG, standing for environmental, social, and governance criteria to really assess their progress on their journey to sustainability. It comes with many metrics that they track, or should track and choose to disclose for the greater benefit of all. One prerequisite I'd say to really building a successful sustainable company, is really the need for a new form of leadership style. One that is purpose driven, that really focuses on doing well, while doing the right thing. And I mean, you might need examples here to illustrate what I'm saying. You could take a Unilever, and the really radical transformation of the Palm oil industry they're leading. If Unilever did nothing, serious risk would really be posed in a few years on their whole business. So, the company has started working with all actors across its value chain, from training farmers, to building alliances with competitors and stakeholders. And you know, what Unilever is doing for the palm industry is actually cementing its reputation as an innovator. And they're already reaping the benefits of having, you know, being first movers. >> Dave: Right. Kerick, Lucy talked about an imperative, so take away there, it's not a checkbox, it's something that's sort of designed in. I wonder if you could, you could talk to that. >> Yeah. And I mean, sustainability at the end of the day now, it's built into every decision every process, every system, and you know, and leadership role in that space is about, you know, kind of developing new corporate strategies, new cultures, new approaches, which are around, you know, actually how do I sort of do this? This it's a real paradigm shift. It's not, it's not something you add to your business. It's something that needs to be core to your business. And then, you know, and that's requiring us to kind of re-imagining how we sort of go to work, how we do business, the processes, developing new products, leveraging new technologies. It's putting all of those pieces in and sort of making them work. And, and the key part of that is how do you do this in a way where we're not forcing people to make a choice between sustainability and profitability. Sustainability and, you know, and a way of quality of life. So there's how you kind of build that into kind of the core products and services. And again, use that ingenuity to kind of develop those, and sort of develop the components that you need to as part of that process. The other part of this is then sort of getting into, well actually from a leadership perspective, now how do I then change, and the way that I sort of work with with partners, with suppliers, with competitors. So it's, it's really fundamentally changing the way the business itself works as well. >> Dave: Yeah. Thank you. You know, Ally I, when I talk about ESG, I sometimes tongue in cheek say Milton Friedman's probably rolling over in his grave, cause he's the economist who said that the only job of a company is to make profits and drive shareholder value. And so that's a, I mean, that's a historical challenge, but there's, there's actually a business case for this. It's actually a good business. And we'll talk about that, but maybe you could address some of the challenges that organizations are facing to really lean in and address ESG. >> Yeah, that's right. You know, there are a lot of components that go into this. So then, as Lucy mentioned and Keric mentioned, the complexities that come with that, are a lot. They're significant. And so I'd say that the first challenge that I see is in regards to the alignment and integration of sustainability strategy within the organization's business model. So if we take a look at the typical life cycle, which includes sourcing, production, operations, distribution, and then end of life and recycling, each of these components must consider the conduits for driving positive social impact and environmental stewardship. But that also, as you said, drives opportunity and economic benefits for the organization. So these are components that could fall into three categories. The first one is what is the journey to net zero look like for you? How will I transform my operations, my strategy, my business models to achieve a net zero emission? What is circularity in the context of my business? How do I orchestrate for zero waste and include reuse regenerative processes restorative processes? And then how do I build in principles of sustainability into the design so that I integrate those components into the ways of working within this new world of sustainability that we're seeing? It's also the what and the how coming together to enable long-term value creation for the company. The second challenge that I see is around the performance monitoring and management. And as they say, you can't manage what you can't measure. And so many organizations might not have the complexity roadmap laid out for the systems and data that's required in order to enable a transparent and quality reporting. We think about data and knowing what you have, versus what you don't, data management, capturing and transforming that data, integrating that data in a way that has a simple but effective use of methodologies, as well as benchmarking. And then having a reporting system that allows you to see everything, almost a control tower of your E, your S, and your G. And then finally we see sustainability has become a board level priority. It is a hot topic, but it's not always properly understood below the board level. So senior executives sometimes approach the conformance to change in the way that we normally approach things like regulation. But I think in this case, it's quite, it's quite different. Because it is a bit of a shift to the person with a purpose, as the center leaders must lead, they must hire they must think design and share. You must meet the (indistinct) paradigms for diversity inclusion. And I think at the same time, encourage diversity, but also divergence where it needs to be. They have to have the head space to accept the truth, and the collaboration with all stakeholders. So I think there are ways for companies to do this and, and for them to be successful. And I think IBM is one of them >> Dave: For sure. And I think Keric, that sort of leads me to it from what Ally was saying about, you know, IBM, big company, has a big ecosystem. There are other large leaders within industry's that can leverage ecosystems, and then maybe set the tone and show the, point the way for the long tail of smaller companies. But maybe you could talk about that ecosystem flywheel. >> What we are also seeing is it's actually sort of quite a lot of differences between the way organizations are addressing this. And you are seen as leaders in this space. Then you ask these people, you're taking a stand around these components and actually trying to shape just not only what they do, but also what organizations do around them. Now, I mean, you know, and if you kind of look at this, there's almost kind of three categories to that, there are organizations that are sort of seeing this as an existential change, you know, if I'm looking at sort of mining, I'm looking at oil and gas I'm looking at travel and transport. Now what you're still seeing there is a fundamental shift in their business. That's requiring them to rethink how they do things in a very structured and actually quite an extended way. You know, if I'm looking at other organizations like retailers, it's actually a little less of of an existential change, it's more of an incremental one. But even so they still have to change all that they do, but they can do it in a, probably a more, staged approach. And then you've got influencers around that as well. So governments, financial services, players, et cetera, who are sort of shaping the agenda and who need help, and support around and thinking through how they kind of measure the change, how they sort of make sure the funding is seeing the right things, how they make, how they make sure they're actually still getting returns they expect. And actually, you know, the sustainability components are actually being driven by that. But I think that's, that's kind of sort sort of where an organization like IBM comes in. There's a lot of technical change in here. There's a lot of data change in here. And actually, these are the sorts of things that, you know, from a sustainability perspective are going to help to drive this in a more seamless and an achievable way, if you will. And so there's an awful lot that we're looking to try to do to enable that quickly to kind of take things off the shelf to, to rapidly test and to actually sort of show people both what, what can be done and the value that you then can create by sort of going down the sustainability journey. >> Okay, got it. Thank you. And Lucy, you touched on some examples at a high level in your opening remarks, and I'm interested in, kind of the starting point that you see companies, you know, taking and what's the right regime? I mean, you've got to put somebody, if somebody's going to be accountable for the measurements and the, and the, the cultural changes, but, but where do we start? >> Right. So one starting point is definitely to be looking at your data right? And, you know, it's, it's really tempting to forget when you're building products, or you're creating experiences, it's tempting to forget thinking about their repercussions on the environment, on communities, and on society. Their impact is, is made invisible for the sake of immediate user satisfaction, and short-term business value. And, you know, although 60% of executives consider sustainability to be an essential competitive advantage, 80% actually, other products ecological impacts are locked in at the design phase. So that's why, you know, with a team of four IBM superstars we've created the sustainable design thinking toolkit that was just launched and is in the process being integrated into the official IBM design thinking site. And that's really a great start, because it's meant to help design thinking practitioners take responsibility on making that impact visible from the very start of the process. And we've used it with multiple clients and for internal products and it's really helped infuse a sustainable mindset throughout the workflows. And, and actually from the very, very start of it. One recent example was in the CPG industry where we've applied our new sustainable design thinking activities to the problem at hand, to get consumers to recycle more by enhancing their recycling experience. And what it allowed us to do, is really to make sure that, you know, the prioritization process, as the first ideas that emerged, included sustainable value into the mix, so that the impact on the planet and communities wasn't a blind spot anymore. >> Dave : So, thank you for that Lucy, Keric I wonder, you know Lucy was talking about, you start with the data and that, that's cool. Sometimes, I get worried though, there's going to be analysis by paralysis and overthinking the strategy. Are there ways to, are there ways to get in and, and take smaller bites and iterate? What do, what are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there absolutely are, you know, with, with lots of organizations, they really have to kind of feel their way into this, this, this new approach. You know, you actually kind of have to learn both what sustainability means, but also sort of what it can deliver. So, you know, usually what we're sort of seeing is those organizations will start off with things which are under their control. So how can I change my manufacturing processes? How can I change some of the internal components of what it is that we do, to make them more sustainable, to, to reduce waste, to reduce sort of, kind of, the energy usage components, which associates with it, and those, that's quite a nice controlled starting point, using, you know, leveraging things like sort of manufacturing 4.0 intelligence processes, you know, (indistinct) sorry, Maximo Asset Management type approaches. The second step we're sort of seeing with lots of organizations. Is that they're then moving into, kind of their own ecosystem if you will. So, you know, actually, how do I manage my supply chain more effectively? How do I drive transparency? How do I, sort of also, drive efficiency and carbon management from that sort of perspective? but also, how do I sort of highlight the sustainable gains I'm making on my products and get those messages to customers and highlights of what we're doing with both new products and services, but also, with existing products and services. And then sort of your, your, kind of your final piece, then actually, this depends on, and it kind of goes back to what I was saying before, about what industry you're in, but, you know, a lot of industries are also having to, kind of, face the challenge of, I need to change fundamentally. You know, the business I'm in is not, not going to work the way it works in a sustainable world. So, so actually, how do I kind of build an ecosystem based approach? How do I kind of work with other partners? How do I kind of work with suppliers? How do I work with competitors? And actually, how do I build something at scale around a platform? And it will just be able to deliver these types of things? And at IBM, we've been kind of creating some of those, those platforms, and then scaling them quite rapidly, sort of across a variety of different sectors. >> Dave: Yeah, and that's where you're going to see the measurable impact. Ally, do you have a framework for what's, what a successful outcome looks like? Are there, are there companies that are sort of models of success? I mean, I think IBM is one of them, but maybe you could talk to that. >> Yeah. There are definitely companies to emulate, and companies have really started to think about the, the connection point between the value that's driven by their business model, as well as the effort and the impact that's being driven by their ESG, their ESG focus. And so, while there might be components of success, I think getting, getting it all together and all right is going to take time. And it's going to be a bit of a sequence. But a bit of a thought experiment, If you could sit into a boardroom, or at a senior level executive discussion, when you think about success, would you hear things or discussions around how the company is building the environmental and social inputs to its products and services? And what does that sound like? Are they tangible? Are they realistic? And what are the methods and the tools that they're using? Would you hear conversations about how the company is evaluating or infusing sustainability across the value chain from procurement all the way to end of life? Or how about the participation of the company into other ecosystems that's driving value into other industries? And we see the force multiplier effect that comes with that when, when companies partner together, because we are either vendors or providers, or consumers of every other product or service. And then I think lastly, would organizations start to think about how to generate value closer to home and how that value can be driven into communities, into where their employees are based. And those elements really, really improve the social elements. So what say lasts is there are elements of what good and success looks like when it comes to sustainability, but I think organizations can set their targets and meet industry benchmarks and frameworks which already exist and are really well established, but continuously increase their own targets to set better and more ambitious goals for themselves, to move beyond, to leverage technology, and be innovative and, and apply these, these tools and best practices in order to get there. And I think, and I think, I think we'll get there over time. So I'm really encouraged by the progress that we're seeing and, and, we hope at IBM to help accelerate that journey. >> Thank you. And Lucy, one of the things I'm excited about is the tech because this is where I think, you know, this business does meet sustainability. I mean, green tech, E.V. I mean, if I'm a nation, I want to be on top of that. If I'm a company, I think there's opportunities for invention and innovation. Can you talk about some of those innovative techs that we're likely to see? >> Right. Well, yeah, to piggy back on what Alex was just saying, and, you know, I think success can, can come in very different ways and forms, you know, be it creating entirely new business models, like, you know, some clients we help in the oil and gas industry, taking really bold commitments to shift to energy, electric energy. Or, you know significantly cutting costs such as, you know, those brands in the CPG industry that are doing amazing things to optimize their supply chains and make them more efficient, more transparent, more secure. Or, you know also protecting brand reputation and mitigating risks, or gaining market share by creating, differentiating value. You might've heard about L'Oreal taking really bold moves, and switching all their products to 95% renewable plant sources and circular processes. You know, it, it, can also be about capturing value, by charging a premium for sustainable products. Think about Tesla or whole foods, for example. I mean there's so many great examples out there already. >> Dave: Excellent. So we got to wrap it, so my last question, and I want to start with Ally, and then we'll go to Keric, and then Lucy, you can bring us home. Talk about why, you were talking about ESG reporting and transparency, and how it's, you know, great for the future and the economy and so forth. Why is this not going to be a fad? Why is it going to be sustainable? The sustainability, the sustainability of sustainable. Ally, please kick it off. And then we'll go to Keric and then Lucy >> You're right. You know, this is a big change for organizations. And I think naturally they're, you know, they're corporate social responsibility and, and, sustainability reports have really been externally focused. And I think that has been a great step in the right direction, but I think what's happening now is, is this convergence of sustainable material and transparent reporting, that is equivalent to material financial reporting that we're seeing. And, and eventually I think the end goal would be to be able to read a sustainable report and understand, and quantify, as well as qualify how much impact is an organization making year to year? And what are some of the initiatives that's driving what we have begun to see as a sustainable business strategy that is also a competitive advantage for organizations. So I think, the, the benefit in the long-term is going to create a lot of value for not just the shareholder but for the stakeholders like employees, like the communities in which these companies operate, like regulatory agencies, as well as municipal, federal governments, and state governments. So I think this is a step in the right direction for providing a very clear direction on their sustainable initiatives. >> Dave: Thank you. Thank you, Ally. Keric, could you weigh in here please? >> Yeah, I mean, I agree with all Ally said there, and I think with the stakeholders, the end of the day, this, this is a collective responsibility. You know, we have one planet, one rock we all live on, and we all need to be part of the process of actually sort of making it, making a change. And, and, you can't, you can't sort of change what you can't measure. So they're kind of holding people to account being able to share sort of the data that we've got, making sure everybody understands what the position is, how we're contributing and the role that we're actually still playing, is going to be an incredibly important part of collectively coming together, then making this change happen, and making this change happen quickly. Which is what it needs to do. >> Dave: Hey, Lucy, your passion shines through here. So it's appropriate that you, you close it out. >> Yeah, well, it all comes down to, you know, do you want your business to still exist in a hundred years from now? And you know, it does require courage and determination, but we all have it in ourselves. You know, trying to find the ways that we can change things for the greater good, find the energy in yourself to inspire others to act. That's why, you know, leaders with purpose and ingenuity are so, so, important today. Thank you. >> Folks, thanks so much for the perspectives you guys doing a great work. Really appreciate your time on the Cube today. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right. It's been our pleasure and thank you for watching. This is the Cube's coverage of IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. We'll be right back. (cheerful music)

>>from around the >>globe. >>It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >>Hello buddy. Welcome back to I didn't think 28 21 this is the cubes ongoing coverage. We go out to the events of course, in this case we do so virtually to extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Volonte and now we're gonna talk about the intersection of business success and sustainability. It's hot topic. We have a great panel for you with me, our ali Carr molly, sustainability and climate practice lead at IBM Canada lucy Bonet is a senior consultant and customer experience and sustainability strategy. Also from IBM Canada and Carrick Morris. Executive Partner, Enterprise Strategy. Global Energy and sustainability lead. IBM UK folks welcome to the panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe lucy, you could kick it off to talk about what is sustainability and how has it all of a sudden becomes such a hot topic amongst leadership? >>Yeah. Sure. Um So first off it's actually my pleasure that sustainability has finally become a trendy topic and is now a key imperative in the business world. Um The pandemic really played a role in it as it made people realize uh that there's an intricate link between global scale events like the climate crisis leading to the acceleration of viruses spread and their own personal health or of their business. So sustainability really means that you're addressing the needs of the present without compromising the needs of future generations to do so. Companies use different frameworks uh and and standards including E. S. G. Standing for environmental social and governance criteria to really assess their progress on their journey to sustainability. It comes with many metrics that they track or should track and choose to disclose for the greater benefit of all. Um One prerequisite I'd say to really building a successful sustainable company is really the need for a new form of leadership style, one that is the purpose driven that really focuses on doing well while doing the right thing. And I mean, you you might need uh examples here to illustrate what I'm saying. Um you can take uh union lever and the really radical transformation of the palm oil industry they're leading. Um if Unilever did nothing serious risk would really be posed in a few years on the whole business. So the company has started working with all actors across its value chain, from training farmers to building alliances with competitors and stakeholders. And you know what union lever is doing for the polymetal industry is actually cementing its reputation as an innovator and they're already reaping the benefits of having been first movers >>Carrick, uh lucy talked about an imperative, so take away there is not a checkbox, it's something that's sort of designed in. I wonder if you could, you could talk to that. >>Yeah, I mean sustainability at the end of the day now is built into every decision, every process, every system. Um and you know and leadership role in that space is about some kind of developing new corporate strategies, new cultures, new approaches which are around, you know, actually, how do I do this? It's a real paradigm shift, it's not it's not something you add to your business, it's something that needs to be called to your business and then you know, that's requiring us to kind of re imagining, you know, how we sort of go work, how we could help you do business? The process is developing new products, leveraging new technologies, it's putting all of those pieces in and sort of making them work and, you know, and the key part of it is how do you do this in a way where we're not forcing people to make a choice between sustainability and profitability, sustainability and you know, and in a way of quality of life. So that's how you kind of build that into kind of the core products and services and again use that ingenuity to kind of develop those and sort of developed, you know, the components that you need to as part of that process. And the other part of this is then getting into, well, actually from a leadership perspective, how do I then change and the way that I work with partners with suppliers, with competitors. So it's it's really fundamentally changing the way the business itself works as well. >>Thank you. Uh you know, ali when I talk about DSG I sometimes tongue in cheek say, Milton Friedman's probably rolling over in his grave because he's the the economist who said that the only job of a company is to make profits and drive shareholder value. And so that's, I mean that's a that's a that's a historical challenge. Uh But there's there's actually a business case for this. Uh It's actually good business and we'll talk about that. But maybe you could address some of the challenges that organizations are facing to really lean in and address. E. S. G. >>Yeah, that's right. You know, there are a lot of components to go into this and as lucy mentioned and Carrick mentioned the complexities that come with that are a lot of their significant. And so I'd say that the first challenge that I see is in regards to the alignment and integration of sustainability strategy within the organization's business model. So if we take a look at the typical life cycle which includes sourcing, production operations, distribution, and then end of life and recycling. Each of these components must consider the conduits for driving positive social impact and environmental stewardship, but that also as you said, drives opportunity and economic benefits for the organization. Um so these are components that could fall into three categories. The first one is what is the journey to net zero look like for you? How will I transform my operations, my strategy, my business models to achieve a net zero emission? What is circularity in the context of my business? How do I orchestrate for zero waste, include reuse regenerative processes, restorative processes, and then how do I build in principles of sustainability into the design, so that I integrate those components into the ways of working within this new world of sustainability that we're seeing. It's also the what and how coming together to enable long term value creation for the company. The second challenge that I see is around the performance monitoring and management and as they say, you can't manage what you can't measure and so many organizations might not have the complexity roadmap laid out for the systems and data that's required in order to enable transparent and quality reporting. We think about data knowing what you have versus what you don't um data management capturing and transform that data, integrating that data in a way that has a simple but effective use of methodologies as well as benchmarking and then having a reporting system that allows you to see everything almost a control tower of your E your S and your G. And then finally we see sustainability has become a board level priority. It is a hot topic but it's not always properly understood below the board level, so senior executives sometimes approach uh uh the the informants to change in the way that we normally approach things like regulation, but I think in this case it's quite it's quite different because it is a bit of a shift to the person with purpose as the center leaders must lead, they must hire, they must think design and share, they must meet the count paradigms for diversity inclusion. Um And I think at the same time encourage diversity, but also divergence where it needs to be, they have to have the headspace to accept the truth in the collaboration with all stakeholders. Um So I think there are ways for companies to do this and and and for them to be successful and I think I am is one of them >>uh for sure, and I think Carrick, that sort of leads me from what allie was saying about, you know, IBM big company has a big ecosystem. There are other large leaders within industry that can leverage ecosystems and it may be set the tone and show the point the way for the long tail of smaller companies. But maybe you could talk about that ecosystem flywheel. What >>we are saying is is actually sort of quite a lot of differences between the way organizations are addressing this and you are seeing some leaders in this space and you are seeing people who are taking a stand around around >>these components and actually trying to shape >>just not only what they do, but also what organizations do around them. Um I mean, you know if you kind of look at this, there's there's almost kind of three categories so that there are organizations that are sort of seeing this as an existential change. You know, if I'm looking at some mining and looking at oil and gas, I'm making your travel and transport, you know what you're still seeing, there is a fundamental shift in their business, requiring them to rethink how they do things in a very structured, um and actually quite an extended way. You know, if I'm looking at other organizations like retailers, it's actually a little less of uh an existential changes, that's more of an incremental one. But even so, they still have to change all that. They do that. They can do it in a probably a more staged approach and then you've got influences around that as well. So governments and financial services players, etcetera, who are sort of shaping the agenda and who need help and support around thinking through how they kind of measure the change, how they sort of make sure the financing the right things, and they make how they make sure they're actually getting returns they expect. And actually, the sustainability components are actually being driven by that. And I think that's that's kind of sort of where an organization like IBM comes in there, there's a lot of technical change in here, there's a lot of data change in here. And actually these are the sorts of things that, you know, from students sustainability perspective are going to help to to drive this in a more seamless and achievable way if you will. Um and so there's an awful lot that we're looking to try to do, to enable that quickly, to kind of take things off the shelf to rapidly test and to actually show people both what can be done and the value then can create by going down the sustainability journey. >>Okay. Got it. Thank you. And lucy you touched on some examples at a high level in your opening remarks. Uh and I'm interested in in kind of the starting point that you see cos you know taking uh and what's the right regime, I mean you've got to put somebody somebody's gonna be accountable for the measurements and the and the cultural changes. But but where do we start? >>Right. So one starting point is definitely uh to be looking at your data right? And uh you know it's it's really tempting to forget when you're building products or you're creating experiences. It's attempting to forget thinking about their repetitions on the environment, on communities and on society. Um Their impact is made invisible for the sake of immediate user satisfaction and short term business value. And you know although 60% of executives consider sustainability to be an essential competitive advantage, 80 actually of the products ecological impacts are locked in at the design phase. So, um that's why, you know, with with a team of four IBM superstars, um we've created the sustainable design thinking toolkit uh that was just launched and is in the process of being integrated into the official IBM design thinking uh site. And and that's really a great start because it's meant to help design thinking practitioners take responsibility on making that impact visible from the very start of the process. And we've used it with multiple clients and for internal projects. And, you know, it's really helped infuse a sustainable mindset throughout the workflows and and actually from the very, very start of it. Um one recent example was in the CPG industry where we've applied renew a sustainable design thinking activities to the problem at hand uh to get consumers to recycle more by enhancing their recycling experience. And what it allowed us to do is really to make sure that, you know, the prioritization process of the first ideas that emerged included sustainable value into the mix, so that the impact on the planet and communities wasn't a blind spot anymore. >>So, thank you for that. Uh Carrick, I wonder, you know, lucy was talking about you start with the data and that that's that's cool. I sometimes I get worried though there's going to be analysis by paralysis and overthinking the strategy. Are there ways to are there ways to get in and and and take smaller bites and iterate what what are your thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I mean, I think they're absolutely, and you know, with with lots of organizations, they really have to kind of feel their way into this, this, this new approach. You know, you actually kind of have to learn both what sustainability means, but also sort of what it can deliver. So, you know, usually what we're sort of seeing is these organizations will start to start off with things which are under their control, so how can I change my manufacturing processes? How can I change some of the internal components of what it is that we do to make them more sustainable to reduce waste, to reduce sort of kind of the energy usage components which are associated with. And that's that's quite a nice controlled starting point using leveraging things like manufacturing, 4.0, intelligent processes, massive, maximum maximum asset management type approaches. Um The second step we're sort of seeing with lots of organizations is that they then moving into kind of their own ecosystem if you will. So actually, how do I manage my supply chain more effectively? How do I drive transparency? How do I sort of also drive efficiency and and kind of carbon management from that sort of perspective. But also how do I sort of highlight the sustainable gains I'm making on my products and and get those messages to customers and highlights of what we're doing with both new products and services, but also with the existing products and services and then sort of your, your kind of your final piece. And actually this depends what kind of goes back to what I was saying before about what industry you're in. But, you know, a lot of industries are also having to kind of face the challenge of any to change fundamentally. You know, the business I'm in is not not going to work the way it works in a sustainable world. So, so actually, how do I kind of build an ecosystem based approach? How do I kind of work with other partners? How do I kind of work with suppliers? How do women competitors actually, how do I build something at scale around the platform in order to be able to deliver these types of things? And IBM, we've been kind of creating some of those, those platforms and then scaling them quite rapidly across a variety of different sectors >>and that's where you're gonna see the measurable impact. Ali do you have a framework for what was a successful outcome looks like? Are there are there companies that are sort of models of success? I mean, I think IBM is one of them, but maybe you could talk to that. >>Yeah, there are definitely companies to emulate, and companies have really started to think about the connection point between the value that's driven by their business model, as well as the effort and the impact that's being driven by there S g uh there? S you focus and so while there might be components of success, I think getting, getting it all together and all right is going to take time and it's going to be a bit of a sequence. Um but a bit of a thought experiment, if you could sit into a boardroom or at a senior level executive discussion when you think about success, would you hear things or discussions around how the company is building the environmental and social inputs to its products and services and what does that sound like? Are they tangible? Are they realistic? And what are the methods and the tools that they're using? Um Would you hear conversations about how the company is evaluating or infusing sustainability across the value chain from procurement all the way to end of life, or how about the participation of the company into other ecosystems that's driving value into other industries. And we see the force multiplier effect that comes with that when companies partner together because we are either vendors or providers or consumers of every other product or service. And then I think lastly, would organizations start to think about how to generate value closer to home and how that value can be driven into communities into where their employees are based and those elements really really improve the social elements. So let's say last is there are elements of what good and success looks like when it comes sustainability. Um but I think organizations can set their targets uh meat industry benchmarks and frameworks which already exist and are really well established um but continuously increase their own targets to set better and more ambitious goals for themselves to move beyond, to leverage technology and be innovative and and apply uh these these tools and best practices in order to get there. Uh And I think um and I think I think we'll get there over time, so I'm really encouraged by the progress that we're seeing. Uh and we hope that IBM to help accelerate that journey. >>Thank you and then lucy one of these, I'm excited about the tech because this is where I think, you know, business does meet sustainability mean green tech E. V. I mean, if if I'm a nation, I want to be on top of that. If I'm a company, I think there's opportunities for invention and innovation. Can you talk about some of those innovative texts that we're likely to see >>right? Um Well, yeah, but to pick you back on on what Allah is just saying and, you know, I think success can can come in very different ways and forms. Um you know, be it creating entirely new business models like, you know, some clients we help in the colon gas industry Taking really bold commitments to shift to energy, electric energy. Um or you know, significantly cutting costs such as, you know, those brands and the CPG industry that are doing amazing things to optimize their supply chains and make them more efficient, more transparent, more secure. Um or you know, also protecting brand reputation and mitigating risks or gaining market share by creating differentiating value. You might have heard about Loreal taking really bold moves and switching all their products to 95 renewable plant sources and circular processes. Um you know, it it can also be about capturing value by charging a premium for sustainable products. Think about Tesla or whole foods for example. I mean there's so many great examples out there already. >>Excellent. So we gotta wrap it. So, my last question and I'll start with ali and then we'll go to Carrick and lucy you can bring us home talk about why you were talking about STD reporting and transparency and how it's great for the future and in the economy and so forth. Why is this not gonna be a fad? Why is it going to be sustainable sustainability? The sustainability of sustainable uh please kick it off and then we'll go to karaoke and then lucy >>you're right. You know, this is a big change for organizations and I think naturally their uh their corporate social responsibility. Um and sustainability reports have really been externally focused and I think that has been a great step in the right direction. Um but I think what's happening now is is this convergence of sustainable material and transparent reporting that is equivalent to material financial reporting that we're seeing. And eventually I think the end goal would be to be able to read a sustainable report and understand and quantify as well as qualify how much impact is an organization making year to year. And what are some of the initiatives that's driving? What we have begun to see is a sustainable business strategy. That is also a competitive advantage for organizations. So I think the benefit in the long term is going to create a lot of value for not just the shareholder, but for the stakeholders like employees, like the communities in which these companies operate, like regulatory agencies as well as municipal, federal governments and state government. So I think this is a step in the right direction for providing a very clear direction on their sustainable initiatives. >>Thank you. Thank you. Ali Carrick, can you weigh in here, please? >>Yeah, I mean, I I agree with all that he said there and I think with the stakeholders and the end of the day this this is a collective responsibility. You know, we have one planet one rock we all live on and we all need to be part of the process of actually making it, making it change. And you can't you can't sort of change what you can't measure. So kind of holding people to account, being able to share some of the data that we've got, making sure everybody understands what the position is, how we're contributing um and and the role that we're actually still playing is going to be an incredibly important part of collectively coming together and making this change happen, and making this change happen quickly, which is what it needs to do >>and lucy your passion shines through here so it's appropriate that you close it out. >>Mhm. Yeah, well it all comes down to you know, do you want your business to still exist in 100 years from now and you know it does require courage and determination but we all have it in ourselves. Um you know, trying to find the ways that we can change things for the greater good, find the energy in yourself to inspire others to act. That's why you know, leaders with purpose and ingenuity are so so important today. Thank you >>folks. Thanks so much for the perspectives guys doing a great work, really appreciate your time on the cube today. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us >>All right, it's been our pleasure and thank you for watching. This is the cubes coverage of IBM think 2021, the virtual edition will be right back.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to AWS re:Invent 2019, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, my name is Dave Vellante and here with my co-host, Justin Warren. We're going to talk about data protection, really important topic, particularly in the cloud. Chadd Kenney is here, he's the Vice President and Chief Technologist at Clumio, a hot new start-up, and to my left is Charlie Gautreaux, he's the Senior Director of cloud services at Ally. Gents, good to see you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> You're welcome. So let's start Charlie with you, tell us about Ally a little bit. >> Sure sure, we're a 10-year-old financial services company, a digital-only bank, multicloud at this point. Certainly, you know, talking to Chadd about data protection quite a bit these days. I think it's a very important topic, it's actually overlooked quite a bit in the marketplace for us, and that's what we're looking at. >> So Chadd, I mean, exciting days for you guys, early start-up days, you just get a couple of rounds, one sizable financing round. So that's, you got now some dry powder to really go after this opportunity. I first heard of Clumio, I met a guy on a plane, he had a Clumio shirt on and he was a customer. I was like ,"Hey, ah yeah, Clumio!" Just basically, and so he's very excited, we had him into our studio, so we want to learn more about that. But, so let's start with back up in the cloud. >> Yeah. >> Share with our audience kind of what you guys are all about. There's a ton of companies out there doing data protection. >> Sure. >> Why Clumio? >> So what Clumio is, is it's a enterprise backup business service solution, highly secure, built natively in the public cloud on cloud-native resources. And we really felt that back-up was just this complex solution of a lot of hardware, a lot of different resources and time spent, and it was really low-hanging fruit to move to the cloud in a full SaaS-based solution. There's been so much SaaS-ification going on in the enterprise as a whole, that this seemed like a perfect spot for people to be able to take advantage of the cloud, and longer term actually get value from the data sets that they're actually backing up in one common platform. >> I mean, it's kind of surprising, isn't it, that it's taken so, I mean, it started with CRM, I guess, and then of course e-mail went-- >> Yeah. >> Over to SaaS, and you had service management, which is kind of a big heavy lift. You know, data warehouses now in the cloud, so it seems like a logical move to put SaaS in the cloud, but I wonder if you could share with us what you guys are doing in a cloud generally, are you guys all cloud, a cloud-native company, or? >> I would say we're about two years on the journey at this point. You know, we started out very much on the IIS side of the house, I think like a lot of folks, more recently though, over the last few years, we're slowly shifting more towards cloud-native services for most of our applications that we're releasing. Certainly a large part of that for us is data management in general, where do we put the data, how do we store it, classify it, recover it, those sorts of things, and certainly our application portfolio is shifting quite a bit from your traditional software packages in the data center to more cloud-native services, either we build or that we buy as a SaaS product. So certainly, the SaaS feature, if you will, of Clumio is very interesting to us, and that model, and that delivery model. >> It's interesting, Charlie, how you described it as not, you didn't describe it as backup, you talked about data management, you talked about how do you categorize it, and so you're thinking, people are thinking about data protection in a different way, it sort of transcends backup these days. Maybe you could elaborate on that. >> Yeah, I definitely think it's broader than backup. We don't actually use that term too much, even in my space, you know to us it's all about availability recoverability, and durability, right, and all three of those things along with how you overall manage your data, I think we saw some announcements even today on that, are a big piece of the story for us. So it's not only about backup, but certainly that's one component. >> So one thing we've heard from the show so far certainly a lot today has been around transformation. So, a back-up is a pretty traditional kind of idea, it's been around for a very long time. People have had a go at transforming this a couple of times, so maybe Chadd, you can give us a bit of a flavor of what is it that Clumio is doing differently that is transformational here? Is it transformational or are you just basically doing the same stuff, but with some cloud rubbed on it? >> Yeah, I think if you look at the past, a lot of these solutions were iterative approaches that made it simpler to deploy, maybe add some new features to it, but it wasn't fully transformative to actually move it to the public cloud, and what we've done here is is we've fundamentally built an application 100% on cloud-native resources which are highly scalable, and it's not you're just make it easier to consume or you pay for the cloud services, and then there's a new consumption model by capacity, this is fundamentally an entirely authentic SaaS solution built in the public cloud. And the value that you get with that is that data structures that traditionally were built for backup never really were suited to do a lot of other things on top of it. Our vision is, is that data backup provides the ability to consolidate data into one common platform, but there are a lot of data services you can provide on top of it. I always jokingly say like, the backup guy actually had all of the data in one spot, and the trends that happened within that data, but the platform never gave him the ability to be able to leverage and get value from the data set itself, and the cloud gives us that. If you were to build a product today, you would build it 100% on the public cloud for the agility, the competitive advantage you get, it's very tough for people though to switch from the model of the old into the model of the new, and so we have the advantage of building from the cloud up, and taking advantage of all of the amazing innovations. Look at what's out here and the amount of innovation here, it's amazing, just walking around seeing all of it. It's really because people can get in quickly, innovate fast, and bring value to customers. >> Well it's interesting what you're saying about transformation because if you think about the sort-of post-mainframe era, and by that I mean, the era in which mainframe was the be all end all, it was, you know you had an application, you'd stick it on a you know, whatever Unix box, or whatever it is and you'd figure out how to back it up. Okay, and then virtualization came along and that forced everybody to re-think how they were doing data protection, and now cloud comes along, and it's really an opportunity to transform. And I guess what I mean is, you've had a lot of entrance into the space, with a lot of money, but they're sort of entering in a hybrid sort of model. You guys are just-- >> The cloud is fundamentally different than what it was before, it's like even a VM is like, well it's basically still a server, so it's still kind of anchored to this older way of doing things, bt the cloud-- >> You just have less physical resources and so you had to re-think that a little-- >> That's right. >> But you guys are coming at it completely differently, saying okay, we're going to put the control in the cloud. No appliance >> And data planes, yeah. >> Control plane, data plane, right, everything. >> It's an entirely new world. If you look at where data resides today, it's private cloud, public cloud, SaaS-based solutions, pretty much everyone's got the private cloud backup thing down to a science, it's all of the other things that are actually pretty challenging to deal with. And you know, that's where we're innovating in. We believe that the world is shifting heavily towards SaaS, we're already seeing that in the market growth numbers, many people are getting a competitive advantage of re-factoring towards cloud, and so we want to help them protect their data assets along that journey. And it's exciting because a lot of the innovation is being done there, and we're not trying to innovate into the last 20 years worth of stuff that everybody else is kind of built around. >> So Charlie, you mentioned you're about two years into your transformation journey, so okay, walk us through how does something like Clumio and this different way of thinking about data protection and data management, how does that join in to the way you think about that transformation journey? >> Yeah, sure. Taking just a little bit of a side step on that for a moment, I think one of the key components and key tenets to any of our transformation has been making sure that we do it in a way that doesn't disrupt the business, right? And all of the new innovations we're seeing in the cloud space are very transformative, but they're also disruptive in how applications are deployed and built, and we're looking at it from a, you know, if we're going to deploy to AWS for example, I don't want my backup to be in the same place that I'm running my application, right, necessarily. I want another provider or another solution to actually own that air gap for me. And especially as we look at multicloud, maybe it's Amazon, maybe it's something else, we don't want to be locked in to one provider in that sense. So from a transformation perspective, for us it's all about that availability from my perspective, so. >> You do mention multicloud there, which is a bit of a verboten word or term of choice. >> Not in theCUBE! >> Ah, not in theCUBE. So, talk to us about that a little bit. How do you, what, where do you see the benefits of multicloud, and when you say multicloud, what is it that you mean by that, or how do you think about multicloud? >> Yeah, sure. From my perspective, multicloud is a couple of components. One that you mentioned is SaaS and other options, we have data out there and maybe our CRM solutions, right. Multicloud from a, I'm either hosting data or executing the data in some application fashion. To me is exactly what I was really talking about, so whether it's Office 365, whether it's some type of CRM, Azure, Amazon, Google, anything else is really what I was referring to. I think that, you know, it's certainly, we're in an era where single provider is not really an option for the long run, right, so. >> So, in thinking about, you mentioned air gap, right, so ransomware is obviously a hot topic, do you think about that differently with the cloud data management, data protection solution than you would with sort of a conventional approach or how do you think about that? >> Yeah, I do, it's kind of interesting, you know, we were having a conversation earlier about this. Companies used to have my data in my server farm, I back it up, and I replicate it to another site. Huge air gap, right, and then all of a sudden, we've put data in the cloud and we kind of forgot about that, at least is what I see. And so I think, we have to kind of reintroduce that mindset again, and I don't see a way that, you know, forward without that type of mindset, really. >> So you've mentioned the SaaS model was attractive to you, what about, is there anything unique about pricing that you guys can share with us, whether it's the overall cost or the way in which pricing is done in the cloud, how important is that to you? >> It's really very important, you know, I think prior to any of the SaaS solutions, or pay as you go, it was large upfront costs, right, you usually even had to pay beyond that because you would need the growth room, right, so for two or three years, you're actually, costs were higher than they needed to be. So from my perspective on the pricing model for Clumio, or solutions even like that, we want to make sure that we pay as we go, and really, yeah. >> Yeah, some interesting stuff that we've been seeing, at least in the public cloud side of the house is, you know, retention periods are defined by the budgets somebody has to store snapshots. >> Yeah, yeah. >> The business requirements in the private cloud is based upon the business requirements, and the challenge with that is, is that you have this inflated cost at long-term durations, and we give some predictability to that, so there's a big value there. But the big one that we talked about a lot earlier is, having data reside right next to your backup or even having to manage all of that across many different accounts, the whole concept of having an air gap solution enables you to not only have disaster recovery capabilities into any of your AWS accounts, but also be able to actually protect against malware, or data loss from bad actors or whatever else, and there's huge value to that for consumers to have it out of their environment. And then the last part is, if you look at what happens in the enterprise, you have single file restores that occur constantly. Not full volume level restores, which snapshots give you the ability to do, and so Clumio has been able to index the data at a file level, have a Google search-like functionality, and be able to restore it to any of the accounts. So that full functionality that enterprises demand is really what we're trying to deliver in the public cloud as part of this offering. >> And, obviously you're in the marketplace today, or you're working on getting in the marketplace? >> We're not, we're working on it. >> Okay. >> We'll be a private listing. >> Okay, great. So, okay, so how's that work? So if I want to engage, I'm an AWS customer and I want to try out Clumio, how do I do that? >> Yeah, so engaging with our sales team, reach out to contacting us and we're happy to come out, show you a demo. The great part about SaaS is you can get up and running literally within 15 minutes, it's almost kind of comical. And we deploy a cloud connector in your environment, inventory the data, you decide what you want to backup. One of the cool parts too is that as you have more and more data sources across SaaS, private cloud, and public cloud, you can apply the same policies across all of them. So the power of that's really huge, to be able to define kind of consistent business practices across all of your data set. We're excited to talk to customers about it. >> And presumably, you can make it granular? I can, for one workload, I can have a different RPO, RTO than other workload? >> You can define by a whole bunch of different types, so in the cloud, everyone uses tags, everything's really defined by tags on the policy. In VMWare, it's more defined by cluster, or maybe foldering or those types. So we support all of them. So you can create different policies by different ways that the customers constructed their environment. >> Right. Okay, last thoughts on things you've seen at re:Invent this year that are exciting you, or? >> Wow, yeah, so many announcements, right, I think, just the pure velocity of innovation is exciting. And you know, it's hard to kind of put it into one thing. We were talking about this earlier, what's the big announcement, there's not one, there's, you know, 50. >> Yeah. >> So it's pretty exciting to see. >> There's a big theme of transformation, but Chadd, we'll leave it with you, you're the new kid on the block, exciting times for you guys. >> We're excited to be here, this show is like electric. You know, the scale of it, it's almost intimidating just walking around, but you know, we've been roaming around the booths just to see the amazing innovation, I think one of the coolest things is just people are able to develop quickly and bring value to customers and we're excited to continue to do that. The new round of funding will get us to really be able to expedite a lot of the data sources that we wanted to continue the platform on, and we're excited to be here next year even bigger with more and more stories to tell. >> All right, well Charlie, congratulations on the innovation that you're in, and Chadd, we're looking for good things from you guys. It's a very exciting time, so we appreciate you guys for coming on. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. All right, keep it right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. Dave Vellante, for Justin Warren. You're watching theCUBE, from re:Invent 2019, in Las Vegas. We'll be right back. (upbeat outro music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Women in Tech: International Women's Day, 2022. I'm your host Lisa Martin. Clara Bidorini joins me next, a Business Developer for the startups team in Brazil at AWS. Clara, it's lovely to have you on the program. >> Hi Lisa, thank you for having me. >> I want to mention a couple accolades that you got just in 2021. You were one of the top 20 most influential women for open innovation in Brazil in 2021. And you were a finalist for Women in Tech Brazil Awards in the category of Ally in Tech 2021. Congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it was an awesome year and it's always important to be acknowledged for what you're doing in the market, right? >> Absolutely, everyone wants to be appreciated every now and then. Tell me a little bit about your role and your background. >> Of course. So I am living in Brazil, as you said, but actually I'm Italian. So I've been living abroad for the last, I will say 16 years. So I've been living in Portugal, I've been living in Switzerland and now in Brazil for the last, I will say 11 years. I'm a Social Entrepreneur and a Strategic Designer. I've been working with corporate ventures since 2014 and now I am Corporate Venture Manager for startups at Amazon Web Services. I've supported, throughout 10 years, enterprises, startups, public sector with corporate acceleration programs and open innovation initiatives within their customer throughout Latin America. >> What's the female representation like in the startup environment? >> Well it depends a lot, right? We have different trends globally speaking. If we look at, for example, global trends, and that includes United States for example, we see that the number of unicorns that for example are led by female is much lower than the number of total unicorn that you see. So if you talk about United States, for example, that has the highest number of unicorns, we see that between 2013 and 2021 the number of female at a unicorn is only 60 against 500 which is a total number of it. So we see that actually the percentage is 12% only, so we need much more representative in the female startup ecosystem. But numbers are changing, right? So this is promising. >> That is good, it is promising to see the numbers ticking up. In terms of positioning of women in leadership roles, what's the role that you see kind of commonly across startups, or maybe it varies by country. >> It varies by country you're right but definitely when we look at the trends and when we look at the data that we receive from National StartUp Association and startup organization in the different geos, you can see that startup that are founded by female leaders are, I will say as a proxy, from 4% to 12% in some countries, it gets to 18%, of the total number of startups to that country. So it's still a low number, but what we see which is interesting, is that much more startups that are led by both female and male co-founders are rising more and more. For example, in Brazil, it represents 28% which is almost 30% against the 12% of female-only founded startup and the 51% of the male founded startup. So I think it's promising to look at this mix of genders when we look at the foundations of startups because they're also getting, I will say, from five to six more investment than female founded startups. What does it mean? It means that we need to find I think more allies work in allyship with men in order to have more investment in startup by women. But it also means that unicorns and the biggest startup, the scale-up startups, are now starting for example to hire women in the leadership. So maybe we don't have so many startups that are founded by women, but we have more and more scale-ups and unicorns that are led by leaders which are women. So this is an interesting change, if we compare 2022 with 2013, for example. >> That's good that we've seen so much progress in that amount of time. And something that I've seen too, or looking at stats, we know that the number of females and technical roles is still pretty low below 25%, but there's a lot of data that show that companies with even 30% of the executive leadership team being female, are more performant and more profitable. So the data is there. Is that one of the reasons that you think that you're seeing a lot of these kind of co-CEOs, female-male counterparts in the startup community? >> Well, we already know that diversity and diverse teams are much more performative than I will say, non-inclusive ones. So it's always a matter of how you can thrive to success in every kind of environment you're working. So this is true for startups but this is also true for corporations. So it's just a matter of time. I think for the startup environment to start to be working faster with diversity and inclusion, then I will say the traditional corporate world. Many of those startups in Brazil, in these tests, are saying, "We want to work with inclusion. We want to have more equity throughout the journey. Not only in the leadership." They just need more resources. And this is something that is interesting for startup because resources is what a startup normally doesn't have. So we need to be really smart on where they put the resources and how we help them throughout this journey so that they can be as diverse as they can and therefore gain more profit, right? >> One of the things that we often say when we're talking about women in tech and here we are International Women's day is that we can't be what we can't see. And I think that's so important to have those female role models. It's also important to have male role models. Talk to me a little bit about your mentors and sponsors and how they've helped get you to where you are today. >> Okay. This is interesting, because I just had a nice conversation with some friends of mine and today we're going to launch a project which I'm very fond of which is called (foreign language) in Portuguese is leave it with them Them being a positive reinforce to women. And today we have launched the first episode, which is amazing. And we were talking about mentors. So how important are they? And we were discussing the fact that until now if we have to count the number of male mentors that we have of course it's much bigger than number of female mentors but from now on what about having more female role models for everybody in the startup ecosystems? This is not a motion in where women are becoming mentors for other women. Women can be mentors for everybody. And the fact that we are empowering more female founders and female leaders in the ecosystem is just bringing again more diversity and therefore more performance to the entire ecosystem. I had many different mentors from different worlds. I will tell a little bit more about myself. Originally I'm an architect and I've been working with building and houses and hospitals and library during the first part of my career. And that world was a male world actually and I had many great mentors that helped me out throughout my journey. When I changed my career into Service Design and starting working with systems and holistic approach for strategy, again, I found many male mentors especially in Switzerland, especially in Brazil. But when I started the startup ecosystem journey, I started meeting women that actually changed my career. So, I'm talking about investors, I'm talking about co-founders, I'm talking about leaders I'm talking about leaders in the community because we don't have to forget that we need always to rely on the personas that are working in the startup ecosystem such as accelerators, incubators, universities. And I could just tell you so many stories about my mentors, but I don't want to say here that we only need to focus on finding female mentors. We need to find the most meaningful relationship that we can and learn from them. It could be a woman, it could be a man, but we need to encourage more and more in women to have the strength and the courage to be mentored to, to speak up. >> I agree. You don't have to have mentors that are only female. I have many back in my day that were male that got me to where I am today that I just really looked up to. And that sponsored me. And that's important for women to know that you need to have your own personal board of directors, of mentors and sponsors. But I'd love to know a little bit more. You really pivoted in your career. Talk to me about how you got the courage to say, "You know what? I'm going to make a change here. I'm going to go in a different direction." >> Oh Lisa, that's such a question. Thank you so about asking me about this. So I've always have been this I will say status quo challenger. And at some point when I entered architecture I ended up making a master in complexity and using creativity to solve complex problem. So there was already a flag of me not working in architecture anymore in the future but I didn't notice at the time. So this idea of working with complexity and using creativity to work out complex problems in society brought me to start working more with design and then using design as a management approach to solve those problems. So I was pivoting but step by step from architecture to design, from design to branding, sorry, from branding to strategy. At certain point I was working with open innovation already, so was solving big challenges for big corporations. I was designing, innovation, planning, The step from here to join the startup ecosystem world is just really small. So from that moment on, I understood that business was the place where I was working and creating an understanding value proposition was actually the thing that was putting me on stage and letting me be more myself in terms of having more connections, being an agent of transformation in this ecosystem. And actually being the status quo challenger every day. So that's the way I pivoted, but it took a lot of courage and it also took a lot of curiosity. And this is something that I'm always telling the startups to have. You need to look at everything with the eyes of a tourist. You need to be curious about everything. That's also the reason why I've been changing countries. I love to learn about new cultures. I love to learn new expressions. I love to understand how other people think. And this is putting other people and other reality in the center of your attention. And this is what business is about. Building stuff that is interesting for people, for your customers, for your user. This is the center of building a value proposition >> Right you bring up several good points there. And one, the breadth of knowledge and experience that you have. There's so much value there in having that breadth, being courageous enough to be curious but you also bring up a point about some other skills like soft skills, for example, that are so valuable that you don't necessarily learn in school. For example, I think communication, relationship building, those are so important for women and men to have to really bring that breadth to what it is that they're doing so that they can do whatever it is that they want. >> Exactly. You're so, right. So many of these soft skills for women, I think have been censored throughout the years by society behaviors. Let's say negotiating or talking about finance or let's try to create something new and having the courage to say, "I'm going to fail several times before will bring my business to success." So all of these aspects that I'm trying to describe here were kind of silenced throughout century for women. And now the possibility not only to test those situations but also to speak up, to share this this knowledge, and to be mindful with other women that can help us to be courageous enough, to fail so many times that we need in order for us to be successful. This is something that I've learned from my colleagues in the startup ecosystem, both male and female founders. This is so important to fail. Failing first is important. And this is something that actually for women is contradicted, right? We are taught to be perfect. We are taught to be multitasking. We are taught to be everything that is not showing our vulnerabilities and learning from our mistakes. So these are the soft skills that I think are more important. And also sorry, I was forgetting one of the most important, which is resilience. Definitely (chuckles). >> Resilience is critical. But I always say that failure is not necessarily a bad F word and you bring up a good point. But if you think of the theme of International Women's Day this year which is #BreakTheBias where do you think we are with that in the startup entrepreneurial world? >> That's a good question, Lisa. I think we are in the middle of a big change. Many of the things that happened throughout the last two years all over the world brought society to rethink on what we want as a future. The pandemic, the killings of innocent people in the United States, in Brazil, what is happening right now in Ukraine. We are working together throughout the new future and we had to rethink to change completely the way we were controlling our daily life, when the pandemic started, right? I think we are in in the midst of a new change. In the startup ecosystem, more and more women are claiming their right to be mothers, to be workers, to be leaders, to be in the startup ecosystem stages like pitching and selling their businesses to investors or corporates, and at the same time to be part of a family and also our men. So I think we are at the point in which we are kind of looking at each other in the eyes and saying, "Okay, we need to compromise. We need to have a better quality of life. And we need to compromise in being core responsible at what we want to achieve in terms of business." And this is something that is happening in the startup ecosystem world as well. So it's impacting corporates and startup as well. So, I think it was a consequence of the last two three years of events throughout the world. But also we see more investors that are female investors and this is important because they're breaking the bias. If we have more female investors investing in more women, we can definitely have those entrepreneurs having raised more money or the same amount of money as men in less time. Now, as we are talking, it takes longer for women to raise less money than the men. So we need to break the bias in this sense. And I think it's happening already. >> We do need to break the bias and thank you for your insights and the work that you are doing to help that along the way. Clara, it was lovely to chat with you today. Thanks for sharing your background. >> Thank you again, Liz. It was wonderful to be here with you. And I just want to make a call to action for all the women and the men that are listening to us to be closer to the other gender, and to try to be an active listener of what's happening in the other gender's life. Because at the end of the day we are co-sharing this world together. Thank you very much >> Wise words, Clara. Thank you again. From Clara Bidorini, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching Women in Tech: International Women's Day, 2022. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector online brought to you by Amazon Web services. Oven Welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of Amazon Web services. Eight. Of his public sector summit online. We couldn't be there in person, but we're doing remote interviews. I'm John Curry. Your host of the Cube got a great segment from Asia Pacific on the other side of the world from California about social impact, transforming, teaching and learning with cloud technology. Got three great guests. You go. Richard is the CEO and co founder of Guys Tech and Jean Te'o, CEO and founder of Solve Education Founders and CEOs of startups is great. This is squad was the AIPAC regional head. Education, health care, not for profit and research. Ray Ws, he head start big program Vincent. Thanks for coming on, Janine. And you go Thank you for joining. >>Thanks for having us, John. >>We're not there in person. We're doing remote interviews. I'm really glad to have this topic because now more than ever, social change is happening. Um, this next generation eyes building software and applications to solve big problems. And it's not like yesterday's problems there. Today's problems and learning and mentoring and starting companies are all happening virtually digitally and also in person. So the world's changing. So, um, I gotta ask you, Vincent, we'll start with you and Amazon. Honestly, big started builder culture. You got two great founders here. CEO is doing some great stuff. Tell us a little bit what's going on. A pack, >>A lot of >>activity. I mean, reinvent and some it's out. There are really popular. Give us an update on what's happening. >>Thank you. Thank you for the question, John. I think it's extremely exciting, especially in today's context, that we are seeing so much activities, especially in the education technology sector. One of the challenges that we saw from our education technology customers is that they are always looking for help and support in many off the innovation that they're trying to develop the second area off observation that we had waas, that they are always alone with very limited resources, and they usually do not know where to look for in terms, off support and in terms off who they can reach out to. From a community standpoint, that is actually how we started and developed this program called A W s. At START. It is a program specifically for education technology companies that are targeting delivering innovative education solutions for the education sector. And we bring specific benefits to these education technology companies when they join the program. Aws ed start. Yeah, three specific areas. First one is that we support them with technical support, which is really, really key trying to help them navigate in the various ranges off A W S services that allows them to develop innovative services. The second area is leaking them and building a community off like minded education technology founders and linking them also to investors and VCs and lastly, off course, in supporting innovation. We support them with a bit off AWS cop credits promotional credits for them so that they can go on experiment and develop innovations for their customers. >>That's great stuff. And I want to get into that program a little further because I think that's a great example of kind of benefits AWS provides actually free credits or no one is gonna turn away free credits. We'll take the free credits all the time all day long, but really it's about the innovation. Um, Jean, I want to get your thoughts. How would solve education? Born? What problems were you solving? What made you start this company and tell us your story? >>Thank you so much for the question. So, actually, my co founder was invited to speak at an African innovation forum a couple of years back on the topic that he was sharing with. How can Africa skip over the industrialization face and go direct to the knowledge economy? Onda, the discussion went towards in orderto have access to the knowledge economy, unique knowledge. And how do you get knowledge Well through education. So that's when everybody in the conference was a bit stuck right on the advice waas. In order to scale first, we need to figure out a way to not well, you know, engaging the government and schools and teachers, but not depend on them for the successful education initiated. So and that's was what pain walk away from the conference. And when we met in in Jakarta, we started talking about that also. So while I'm Singaporean, I worked in many developing countries on the problem that we're trying to solve this. It might be shocking to you, but UNESCO recently published over 600 million Children and you are not learning on. That is a big number globally right on out of all the SDG per se from U N. Education. And perhaps I'm biased because I'm a computer engineer. But I see that education is the only one that can be solved by transforming bites. But since the other stg is like, you know, poverty or hunger, right, actually require big amount of logistic coordination and so on. So we saw a very, um, interesting trend with mobile phones, particularly smartphones, becoming more and more ubiquitous. And with that, we saw a very, uh, interesting. Fortunately for us to disseminate education through about technology. So we in self education elevate people out of poverty, true, providing education and employment opportunities live urging on tech. And we our vision is to enable people to empower themselves. And what we do is that we do an open platform that provides everyone effected education. >>You could How about your company? What problem you're you saw And how did it all get started? Tell us your vision. >>Thanks, John. Well, look, it all started. We have a joke. One of the co founder, Matthew, had a has a child with severe learning disorder and dyslexia, and he made a joke one day about having another one of them that would support those those kids on Duh. I took the joke seriously, So we're starting sitting down and, you know, trying to figure out how we could make this happen. Um, so it turns out that the dyslexia is the most common learning disorder in the world, with an estimated 10 to 20% off the worldwide population with the disorder between context between 750 million, up to 1.5 billion individual. With that learning disorder on DSO, where we where we sort of try and tackle. The problem is that we've identified that there's two key things for Children with dyslexia. The first one is that knowing that it is dislikes. Yeah, many being assessed. And the second is so what? What do we do about it? And so given or expertise in data science and and I, we clearly saw, unfortunately off, sort of building something that could assess individual Children and adults with dyslexia. The big problem with the assessment is that it's very expensive. We've met parents in the U. S. Specifically who paid up to 6000 U. S. Dollars for for diagnosis within educational psychologist. On the other side, we have parents who wait 12 months before having a spot. Eso What we so clearly is that the observable symptom of dyslexia are reading and everyone has a smartphone and you're smart. Smartphone is actually really good to record your voice. Eso We started collecting order recording from Children and adults who have been diagnosed with dyslexia, and we then trying a model to recognize the likelihood of this lecture by analyzing audio recording. So in theory, it's like diagnosed dyslexic, helping other undiagnosed, dyslexic being being diagnosed. So we have now an algorithm that can take about 10 minutes, which require no priors. Training cost $20. Andi, anyone can use it. Thio assess someone's likelihood off dyslexia. >>You know, this is the kind of thing that really changes the game because you also have learning progressions that air nonlinear and different. You've got YouTube. You got videos, you have knowledge bases, you've got community. Vincent mentioned that Johnny and you mentioned, you know making the bits driver and changing technology. So Jeannine and Hugo, please take a minute to explain, Okay? You got the idea. You're kicking the tires. You're putting it together. Now you gotta actually start writing code >>for us. We know education technology is not you. Right? Um, education games about you. But before we even started, we look at what's available, and we quickly realize that the digital divide is very real. Most technology out there first are not designed for really low and devices and also not designed for people who do not have Internet at hope so way. So with just that assessment, we quickly realized we need toe do something about on board, but something that that that problem is one eyes just one part of the whole puzzle. There's two other very important things. One is advocacy. Can we prove that we can teach through mobile devices, And then the second thing is motivation it again. It's also really obvious, but and people might think that, you know, uh, marginalized communities are super motivated to learn. Well, I wouldn't say that they are not motivated, but just like all of us behavioral changes really hard right. I would love to work out every day, but, you know, I don't really get identity do that. So how do we, um, use technology to and, um, you know, to induce that behavioral change so that date, so that we can help support the motivation to learn. So those are the different things that we >>welcome? >>Yeah. And then the motivated community even more impactful because then once the flywheel gets going and it's powerful, Hugo, your reaction to you know, you got the idea you got, You got the vision you're starting to put. Take one step in front of the other. You got a W s. Take us through the progression, understand the startup. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, what Jane said is very likely Thio what we're trying to do. But for us, there's there's free key things that in order for us to be successful and help as much people as we can, that is free things. The first one is reliability. The second one is accessibility, and the other one is affordability. Eso the reliability means that we have been doing a lot of work in the scientific approach as to how we're going to make this work. And so we have. We have a couple of scientific publications on Do we have to collect data and, you know, sort of published this into I conferences and things like that. So make sure that we have scientific evidence behind us that that support us. And so what that means that we had Thio have a large amount of data >>on and >>put this to work right on the other side. The accessibility and affordability means that, Julian said. You know it needs to be on the cloud because if it's on the cloud, it's accessible for anyone with any device with an Internet connection, which is, you know, covering most of the globe, it's it's a good start on DSO the clock. The cloud obviously allow us to deliver the same experience in the same value to clients and and parent and teacher and allied health professionals around the world. Andi. That's why you know, it's it's been amazing to to be able to use the technology on the AI side as well. Obviously there is ah lot of benefit off being able to leverage the computational power off off the cloud to to make better, argue with them and better training. >>We're gonna come back to both of you on the I question. I think that's super important. Benson. I want to come back to you, though, because in Asia Pacific and that side of the world, um, you still have the old guard, the incumbents around education and learning. But there is great penetration with mobile and broadband. You have great trends as a tailwind for Amazon and these kinds of opportunity with Head Start. What trends are you seeing that are now favoring you? Because with co vid, you know the world is almost kind of like been a line in the sand is before covert and after co vid. There's more demand for learning and education and community now than ever before, not just for education, the geopolitical landscape, everything around the younger generation. There's, um, or channels more data, the more engagement. How >>are you >>looking at this? What's your vision of these trends? Can you share your thoughts on how that's impacting learning and teaching? >>So there are three things that I want to quickly touch on number one. I think government are beginning to recognize that they really need to change the way they approach solving social and economic problems. The pandemic has certainly calls into question that if you do not have a digital strategy, you can't You can find a better time, uh, to now develop and not just developed a digital strategy, but actually to put it in place. And so government are shifting very, very quickly into the cloud and adopting digital strategy and use digital strategy to address some of the key problems that they are facing. And they have to solve them in a very short period of time. Right? We will talk about speed, three agility off the cloud. That's why the cloud is so powerful for government to adult. The second thing is that we saw a lot of schools closed down across the world. UNESCO reported what 1.5 billion students out of schools. So how then do you continue teaching and learning when you don't have physical classroom open? And that's where education, technology companies and, you know, heroes like Janine's Company and others there's so many of them around our ableto come forward and offer their services and help schools go online run classrooms online continue to allow teaching and learning, you know, online and and this has really benefited the overall education system. The third thing that is happening is that I think tertiary education and maybe even catch off education model will have to change. And they recognize that, you know, again, it goes back to the digital strategy that they got to have a clear digital strategy. And the education technology companies like, what? Who we have here today, just the great partners that the education system need to look at to help them solve some of these problems and get toe addressing giving a solution very, very quickly. >>Well, I know you're being kind of polite to the old guard, but I'm not that polite. I'll just say it. There's some old technology out there and Jenny and you go, You're young enough not to know what I t means because you're born in the cloud. So that's good for you. I remember what I t is like. In fact, there's a There's a joke here in the United States that with everyone at home, the teachers have turned into the I T department, meaning they're helping the parents and the kids figure out how to go on mute and how toe configure a network adds just translation. If they're routers, don't work real problems. I mean, this was technology. Schools were operating with low tech zooms out there. You've got video conferencing, you've got all kinds of things. But now there's all that support that's involved. And so what's happening is it's highlighting the real problems of the institutional technology. So, Vincent, I'll start with you. Um, this is a big problem. So cloud solves that one. You guys have pretty much helped. I t do things that they don't want to do any more by automation. This >>is an >>opportunity not necessary. There's a problem today, but it's an opportunity tomorrow. You just quickly talk about how you see the cloud helping all this manual training and learning new tools. >>We are all now living in a cloud empowered economy. Whether we like it or not, we are touching and using services. There are powered by the cloud, and a lot of them are powered by the AWS cloud. But we don't know about it. A lot of people just don't know, right Whether you are watching Netflix, um Well, in the old days you're buying tickets and and booking hotels on Expedia or now you're actually playing games on epic entertainment, you know, playing fortnight and all those kind of games you're already using and a consumer off the cloud. And so one of the big ideas that we have is we really want to educate and create awareness off club computing for every single person. If it can be used for innovation and to bring about benefits to society, that is a common knowledge that everyone needs to happen. So the first big idea is want to make sure that everyone actually is educated on club literacy? The second thing is, for those who have not embarked on a clear cloud strategy, this is the time. Don't wait for for another pandemic toe happen because you wanna be ready. You want to be prepared for the unknown, which is what a lot of people are faced with, and you want to get ahead of the curve and so education training yourself, getting some learning done, and that's really very, very important as the next step to prepare yourself toe face the uncertainty and having programs like AWS EC start actually helps toe empower and catalyzed innovation in the education industry that our two founders have actually demonstrated. So back to you Join. >>Congratulations on the head. Start. We'll get into that real quickly. Uh, head start. But let's first get the born in the cloud generation, Janine. And you go, You guys were competing. You gotta get your APS out there. You gotta get your solutions. You're born in the cloud. You have to go compete with the existing solutions. How >>do you >>view that? What's your strategy? What's your mindset? Janine will start with you. >>So for us, way are very aware that we're solving a problem that has never been solved, right? If not, we wouldn't have so many people who are not learning. So So? So this is a very big problem. And being able to liberate on cloud technology means that we're able to just focus on what we do best. Right? How do we make sure that learning is sufficient and learning is, um, effective? And how do we keep people motivated and all those sorts of great things, um, leveraging on game mechanics, social network and incentives. And then while we do that on the outside way, can just put almost out solved everything to AWS cloud technology to help us not worry about that. And you were absolutely right. The pandemic actually woke up a lot of people and hands organizations like myself. We start to get queries from governments on brother, even big NGOs on, you know, because before cove it, we had to really do our best to convince them until our troops are dry and way, appreciate this opportunity and and also we want to help people realized that in order to buy, adopting either blended approach are a adopting technology means that you can do mass customization off learning as well. And that's what could what we could do to really push learning to the next level. So and there are a few other creative things that we've done with governments, for example, with the government off East Java on top of just using the education platform as it is andare education platform, which is education game Donald Civilization. Um, they have added in a module that teaches Cove it because, you know, there's health care system is really under a lot of strain there, right and adding this component in and the most popular um mitigate in that component is this This'll game called hopes or not? And it teaches people to identify what's fake news and what's real news. And that really went very popular and very well in that region off 25 million people. So tech became not only just boring school subjects, but it can be used to teach many different things. And following that project, we are working with the federal government off Indonesia to talk about anti something and even a very difficult topic, like sex education as well. >>Yeah, and the learning is nonlinear, horizontally scalable, its network graft so you can learn share about news. And this is contextual data is not just learning. It's everything is not like, you know, linear learning. It's a whole nother ballgame, Hugo. Um, your competitive strategy. You're out there now. You got the covert world. How are you competing? How is Amazon helping you? >>Absolutely. John, look, this is an interesting one, because the current competitors that we have, uh, educational psychologist, they're not a tech, So I wouldn't say that we're competing against a competitive per se. I would say that we're competing against the old way of doing things. The challenge for us is to, um, empower people to be comfortable. We've having a machine, you know, analyzing your kids or your recording and telling you if it's likely to be dislikes. Yeah, and in this concept, obviously, is very new. You know, we can see this in other industry with, you know, you have the app that stand Ford created to diagnose skin cancer by taking a photo of your skin. It's being done in different industry. Eso The biggest challenge for us is really about the old way of doing things. What's been really interesting for us is that, you know, education is lifelong, you know, you have a big part in school, but when you're an adult, you learn on Did you know we've been doing some very interesting work with the Justice Department where, you know, we look at inmate and you know, often when people go to jail, they have, you know, some literacy difficulty, and so we've been doing some very interesting working in this field. We're also doing some very interesting work with HR and company who want to understand their staff and put management in place so that every single person in the company are empowered to do their job and and and, you know, achieve success. So, you know, we're not competing against attack. And often when we talk to other ethnic company, we come before you know, we don't provide a learning solution. We provide a assessment solution on e assessment solution. So, really, John, what we're competing against is an old way of doing things. >>And that's exactly why clouds so successful. You change the economics, you're actually a net new benefit. And I think the cloud gives you speed and you're only challenges getting the word out because the economics air just game changing. Right, So that's how Amazon does so well, um, by the way, you could take all our recordings from the Cube, interviews all my interviews and let me know how ideo Okay, so, um, got all the got all the voice recordings from my interview. I'm sure the test will come back challenging. So take a look at that e. I wanna come back to you. But I wanna ask the two founders real quick for the folks watching. Okay on Dhere about Amazon. They know the history. They know the startups that started on Amazon that became unicorns that went public. I mean, just a long list of successes born in the cloud You get big pay when you're successful. Love that business model. But for the folks watching that were in the virtual garages, air in their houses, innovating and building out new ideas. What does Ed start mean for them? How does it work? Would you would recommend it on what are some of the learnings that you have from work with Head Start? >>But our relationship X s start is almost not like client supplier relationship. It's almost like business partners. So they not only help us with protect their providing the technology, but on top of that, they have their system architect to work with my tech team. And they have, you know, open technical hours for us to interact. And on top of that, they do many other things, like building a community where, you know, people like me and Google can meet and also other opportunities, like getting out the word out there. Right. As you know, all of their, uh, startups run on a very thin budget. So how do we not pour millions of dollars into getting out without there is another big benefit as well. So, um definitely very much recommend that start. And I think another big thing is this, right? Uh, what we know now that we have covert and we have demand coming from all over the place, including, like, even a lot of interest, Ally from the government off Gambia, you know? So how do we quickly deploy our technology right there? Or how do we deploy our technology from the the people who are demanding our solution in Nigeria? Right. With technology that is almost frameless. >>Yeah. The great enabling technology ecosystem to support you. And they got the region's too. So the region's do help. I love we call them Cube Region because we're on Amazon. We have our cloud, Hugo, um, and start your observations, experience and learnings from working with aws. >>Absolutely. Look, this is a lot to say, so I'll try and making sure for anyone, but but also for us on me personally, also as an individual and as a founder, it's really been a 365 sort of support. So like Johnny mentioned, there's the community where you can connect with existing entrepreneur you can connect with expert in different industry. You can ask technical expert and and have ah, you know office our every week. Like you said Jenny, with your tech team talking to cloud architect just to unlock any problem that you may have on day and you know, on the business side I would add something which for us has been really useful is the fact that when we when we've approached government being able to say that we have the support off AWS and that we work with them to establish data integrity, making sure everything is properly secured and all that sort of thing has been really helpful in terms off, moving forward with discussion with potential plant and and government as well. So there's also the business aspect side of things where when people see you, there's a perceived value that you know, your your entourage is smart people and and people who are capable of doing great things. So that's been also really >>helpful, you know, that's a great point. The APP SEC review process, as you do deals is a lot easier. When here on AWS. Vincent were a little bit over time with a great, great great panel here. Close us out. Share with us. What's next for you guys? You got a great startup ecosystem. You're doing some great work out there and education as well. Healthcare. Um, how's your world going on? Take a minute, Thio. Explain what's going on in your world, >>John, I'm part of the public sector Team Worldwide in AWS. We have very clear mission statements on by the first is you know, we want to bring about destructive innovation and the AWS Cloud is really the platform where so many off our techs, whether it's a text, healthtech golf text, all those who are developing solutions to help our governments and our education institutions or health care institutions to really be better at what they do, we want to bring about those disruptive innovations to the market as fast as possible. It's just an honor on a privilege for us to be working. And why is that important? It's because it's linked to our second mission, which is to really make the world a better place to really deliver. Heck, the kind of work that Hugo and Janina doing. You know, we cannot do it by ourselves. We need specialists and really people with brilliant ideas and think big vision to be able to carry out what they are doing. And so we're just honored and privileged to be part off their work And in delivering this impact to society, >>the expansion of AWS out in your area has been phenomenal growth. I've been saying to Teresa Carlson, Andy Jassy in the folks that aws for many, many years, that when you move fast with innovation, the public sector and the private partnerships come together. You're starting to see that blending. And you've got some great founders here, uh, making a social impact, transforming, teaching and learning. So congratulations, Janine and Hugo. Thank you for sharing your story on the Cube. Thanks for joining. >>Thank you. Thank >>you, John. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube. Virtual were remote. We're not in person this year because of the pandemic. You're watching a divest Public sector online summit. Thank you for watching

>>from Santa Clara, California In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Our next customer panel got great. Another set of cloud Network architect Justin Smith, was Aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and omit Otri job with Cooper. But on the stage. >>Yeah, all right. Thank you. Thank you, Thank you. Yeah, >>he's got all the cliff notes from the last session. Welcome, Rinse and repeat. Yeah, we got to go under the hood a little bit and I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having a conversation around. Networking is where the action is, cause that's the end of the day. You gotta move impact from a to B. And yet workloads exchanging data. So it's really killer. So let's get started. I mean, what are you seeing as the journey of of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say, Okay, I got to implement this, have to engineer the network, make it enabling make it programmable, making interoperable across clouds. And that's like I mean, almost sounds impossible to me. What's your take? >>Yeah, I mean it. It seems impossible. But if you're running an organization, which is running infrastructures, according all right, it is easily doable. Like you can use tools out there that's available today. You can use third party products that can do a better job, but But what? Your architecture first, don't wait. Architecture may not be perfect, but the best architecture that's available today and be agile to idiot and make improvements over there. >>We got to Justin's over here, so I have to be careful when I pointed Question and Justin, they both have the answer, but okay, Journeys. What's the journey been like? I mean, is there phases? We heard that from Gardner. People come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspective. What's your take on the journey? Justin? >>Yeah, I mean, from our first do, we started out very much focused on one cloud. Ah, and as we started acquisitions, we started doing new products to market. The need for multi cloud becomes very apparent very quickly for us. And so, you know, having architecture that we can plug in, play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important For what we're doing in this space >>just in your journey? >>Yes, for us. We were very ad hoc oriented. And the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas. And so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments. And so we shifted that tour in the network has been a real enabler of this is that there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we wanted to touch on. It touches the data centers that we needed to touch, and it touches the customers that we needed to touch. Our job is to make sure that the services that are available in one of those locations are available in all of the locations. So the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time. It's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to dio >>before we get the architecture section, I want to ask you guys a question. A big fan of you know, let the app developers have infrastructure as code, so check, but having the right cloud run that workload. I'm a big fan of that if it works great. But we just heard from the other panel. You can't change the network. So I want to get your thoughts. What is cloud native networking and is that the engine really got the enabler for this multi cloud trend. But you guys take it, we'll start with What do you think about that? >>Yeah, So you're gonna have workloads running in different clouds, and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud or another. But how you expose that? It's a matter of how you're gonna build your networks, how we're gonna run security, how we're gonna do egress, ingress out offered. So >>networking is the big problem. How do you suppose this? What's the solution? That's the key Pain points and problem statement. >>I mean, they get the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on premise network and then blow it out to the cloud in a way that makes sense. I p conflicts. You have space. You have public eyepiece on premise as well as in the cloud. And how do you kind of make a sense of all of that. And I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense >>in that space from our side. It's it's really simple. It's latency and bandwidth and availability. These don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate I t. Networking. So our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s three, for instance. And our developers want to use those, we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GC p resource is these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants, as opposed to saying, Hey, that's not a good idea. Our job is to enable them not disable them. Do >>you think I do? You guys think Infrastructure's code, which I love that because that's the future it is. We saw that with Dev Ops, but I just start getting the networking. Is it getting down to the network portion where it's network as code storage and compute? Working really well is seeing all kubernetes and service meshes. Trend network is code reality is that there is still got work >>to do. It's absolutely there. I mean, you mentioned that develops and it's very real. I mean, in Cooper, we build our networks through terraform and on not only just data from building a p I so that we can consistently build we nuts and vpc all across in the same way >>you got to do it. >>Yeah, and even security groups and then on top and aviatrix comes in. We can peer the network's bridge bridge, all the different regions through court. >>Same with you guys about >>everything we deploy is done with automation. And then we also run things like Lambda on top to make changes in real time. We don't make manual changes on our network in the data center. Funny enough, it's still manual, but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset. And all my guys, that's what they focus on is bringing now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center, which is kind of opposite what it should be that's full. When it used to be. >>It's full dev ops, then >>yes, yeah, I mean, for us, it was similar on premise. Still somewhat very manual though we're moving more Norton Ninja and Terra Form concepts, but everything in the production environment, confirmation terraform code and now coming into the data center. So I just wanted to jump in on Justin Smith. One of the comment >>that you made because it's something that we always >>talk about a lot is that >>the center of gravity of architectures used to be an on Prem, and now it's shifted in the cloud it once you have your strategic architecture what what do you do? You push that everywhere. So what you used to see the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on Prem into cloud. Now I won't pick up on what you said The you others agree that the center >>of architect of gravity is here. I'm now pushing what I do in the cloud >>back into on Prem. And so first that and then also in the journey Where are you at? From 0 to 100 of, actually in the journey to cloud Are you 50% There are you 10%. So you evacuating data centers next year? I mean, where are you guys at >>s. So there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with the migration. First is data gravity in your data set and where that data lives. And the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together in our case, the data gravity still mostly on Prem. But our network is now extending out to the APP tier that's gonna be in cloud, right? Eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated. But, you know, in our journey, we're about halfway there halfway through the process, we're taking a handle of lift and shift. And when did that start? We started about three years ago. >>Okay, Well, for us, it's a very different story. Started from a garage 100% in the cloud. It's a business spend management platform as a software as a service, 100% in the cloud. It was like 10 years ago, right? Yes. >>Yeah. Has a riding the wave of the architecture. Just I want to ask you is or you guys mentioned Dev ops. I mean, obviously we saw the huge observe Ability way which essentially network management for the cloud. In my opinion, it's more dynamic, but this is about visibility. We heard from last panel. You don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time. How is all this playing out when you start getting into the Dev Ops down? >>Well, this this is the big challenge for all of us is visibility when you talk transport within a cloud. You know, we very interesting. We have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we own. That would be data center connectivity. We now I work as a subscription billing company, so we want to support the subscription mindset. So rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy, I my backbone, is in the cloud. I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across. And so if you do that with their native solutions, you do lose visibility. There are areas in that you don't get, which is why controlling you know, controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to and provide consistency while doing it. >>Great conversation. I love what you said earlier laden C band with I think availability with your SIM pop three things guys s l A and just do ping times between clouds. It's like you don't know what you're getting for round trip times. This becomes a huge kind of risk management. Black hole, whatever you wanna call Blind Spot. How are you guys looking at the interconnect between clouds? Because, you know, I can see that working from ground to cloud on cloud. But when you start dealing multi clouds, workloads, sl A's will be all over the map, won't they? Just inherently. But how do you guys view that? >>Yeah, I think we talked about workload, and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds, but they're going to be calling each other. So it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how their data is flowing at war latency and what our ability is is there and over a Saturday meets to operate on. So it's >>so use the software dashboard, look at the Times and look at the latest in >>the old days strong So on open salon, you try to figure it out, and then your data, as you look at our >>Justin, what's your answer? That cause you're in the middle of it? >>Yeah. I mean, I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure. We have a plan for that latency and our applications. That something is we're tracking ingress, Ally, something you start planning for. And you loosely couple these services in a much more micro services approach. So you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency. And unfortunately, the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions in much better way. >>You guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one you guys had When did you have the tipping point moment or the epiphany of saying a multi clouds real? I can't ignore it. I got a factor into all my design, design principles and everything you're doing. What? It was there a moment or was it from day one? >>Now there are 22 reasons. One was the business. So in business, there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud, and that drove from the business side. So as a cloud architect of a responsibility was to support the business, and the other is the technology. Some things are really running better in, like if you're running dot net workload or you're gonna run machine learning or yeah, so you have You would have that reference off one cloud over the other. So >>your thoughts on that >>that was the bill that we got from AWS. I mean, that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building, on top of which is so we this failure domain idea, which is which is fairly interesting. How do I solve or guarantee against a failure domain You have methodologies with, you know, back in direct, connects or interconnect with DCP. All of these ideas are something that you have to take into account. But that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for Our job is to deliver the frames in the packets, what that flows across, how you get there. We want to make that seamless, and so whether it's a public Internet, AP I call or it's a back end connectivity through direct connect. It doesn't matter. It just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application, folks, >>that's the availability piece just in your thoughts on that comment >>s actually multi clouds become something much more recent. In the last 6 to 8 months, I'd say we always kind of had a very dramatic like movie to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough. Why complicated further but the realities of the business. And as we started seeing, you know, improvements in Google and Azure and different technology space is the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well. As other acquisition strategies matured. We're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on the cloud. And if they're on a cloud, I need to plug them into our ecosystem. And so that's really changed our multi cloud story >>in a big way. I'd love to get your thoughts on the cloud versus the cloud because you know you compare them. Amazon's got more features. They're rich with features. I'll see the bills. Are people using them. But Google's got a great network. Google's networks pretty damn good. And then you've got azure. What's the difference between the clouds? Who? Where they involved with a peak in certain areas, better than others? What? What are the characteristics which makes one cloud better? Do they have a unique feature that makes Azure better, then Google and vice versa. What you guys think about the different clouds? >>Yeah, so my experience, I think there is a deep approach is different in many places. Google has a different approach, very developer friendly. And you can run your workload with the your network and spend regions. I mean, but our application ready to accept Amazon is evolving. I mean, I remember 10 years back Amazon's network was a flat network. We will be launching certain words and 10.0 dot zero slash right on, and the repeat came out >>with Life is not good. >>So so the VPC concept came on multi core came out, so they are evolving as you already let's start. But because they have lived start, they saw the patron and they have some mature set up on the ground, >>and I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways. I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways. And you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution, for example, Amazon has a very much a very regional affinity. They don't like to go cross region in their architecture, whereas Google is very much it's a global network. We're gonna think about a global solution. I think Google also has evangelists third to market, and so has seen what Azure did wrong. It seemed, with AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements. And I think that's one of their big >>advantage. Great scale to Justin. Thoughts on the cloud. >>So yeah, Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down, so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus original. I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing. But if you look at it from the outset, interestingly, the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer to broadcasting and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center, provide resiliency and make things seamless to users. All of that disappeared on DSO because we had to accept that at the VPC level. Now we have to accept it. At the one level, Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us. >>Just scrape and go all day. Here is awesome So I heard. But we will get to the cloud native Naive question. So I kind of think about what's not even what clients that next. But I got to ask. You had a conversation with a friend. He's like, When is the new land? So if you think about what the land was in a data center, when is the new language you're talking about? The cloud impact. So that means SD win. The old SD Wan is kind of changing the new land. How do you guys look at that? Because even think about it. What lands were for inside of premises was all about networking speed. But now, when you take the win and make essentially land, do you agree with that. And how do you view this trend? Is it good or bad or ugly? What's what's your guys take on this? >>Yeah, I think it's Ah, it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect. So if you're managing networks and if you're a sorry engineer, you need to work with them toe expose the unreliability that would bring in. So the application has to handle a lot off this the difference in the latency, ease and and the reliability it has to be worked with application there >>land way and same concept as a B S >>E. I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years. As we get more and more cloud native and we talk about a p, I is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access. It really goes away. And so I think this is just continuation that thing. I think it has challenges. We are talking about land scale versus land scale. The tooling doesn't work the same. The scale of that tooling is much larger on the need for automation is much, much higher in a way that it wasn't a land. That's where you're seeing so much. Infrastructure is code. >>Yeah, so for me, I'll go back again to this. It's bandwidth, and it's latency, right that that define those two land versus went. But the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where's our security boundary? And where can I extend this secure, aware appliance or set of rules Teoh to protect what's inside of it. So for us, we're able to deliver VM ref. So our route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're out in the world and so they're trusted to talk to each other. But if they're going to go to some place that's outside of their network, then they have to cross a security boundary, and we'll reinforce policy very heavily. So for me there is. It's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly, >>as a great point and security we haven't talked about yet, but that's got to be baked in from the beginning of this architecture. Thoughts on security, how you guys are dealing with it. >>Yes, start from the base. Have app, Web security built in? Have TLS have encryption on the data in transit or at rest? But as you bring the application to the cloud and they're going to go multi cloud talking toe or the Internet in some places, well, have app, Web security >>I mean our principles. Day security is a day zero every day, and so we always build it into our design, build into our architecture into our applications. It's encrypt everything. It's TLS everywhere. It's make sure that that data is security at all times. >>Yeah, one of the cool trends that are, say, just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece, which is a home or fix stuff. Interesting. Alright, guys, final question. You know, we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent. We take the tea out of cloud native. It spells cloud naive. They got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going. What does that mean to be naive? So if you're to your peers out there watching the live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services. What's naive look like And what's native look like when it's someone naive about implementing all this stuff. >>So for me, it's because we are 100% cloud for us. Its main thing is ready for the change, and you you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change. So don't be naive and things that are static you all with the change. >>I think the big naivety that people have is that, well, I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful. It's going to be successful in cloud. The reality is, that's not the case. You have to think some of the stuff differently, and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud. >>Yet for me, it's it's being open minded, right? The our industry, the network industry as a whole has been very much I'm smarter than everybody else, and we're gonna tell everybody how it's gonna be done on the way we fell into a law when it came to producing infrastructure and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or months in some cases is really important. And so, you know, it's >>being closed minded native, being open minded. >>Exactly. And it took for me. It was that was a transformative kind of, uh, where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way, as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old school way. >>All right, I know we're out of time, but I got one more question for you guys. So good. It could be a quick answer. Um, what's the B s language? When you bs? Meter goes up when people talk about solutions, what's the kind of jargon that you here that's the BS meter going off? What are people talking about that in your opinion, You. Here you go. That's total bs. But what triggers? >>So I have two lines out of movies that are really like it. I say them without actually thinking them. It's like 1.21 gigawatts of your of your mind. Back to the future, right? Somebody's going to the bank and then and then Martin Ball and and Michael Keaton and Mr Mom when it goes to 22. 21 whatever it takes those two right there, if those go off in my mind where somebody's talking to me, I know they're full of baloney. >>A lot of speeds and feeds a lot of speeds and feeds a >>lot of data instead of talking about what you're actually doing in solution ing for You're talking about What does this? This This is okay, 2020 A. >>Just take any time I start seeing the cloud vendors start benchmarking against each other. Your workload is your workload. You need a benchmark yourself. Don't Don't listen to the marketing on that. That's that's >>what triggered you in the BSP. >>I think if somebody explains you're not simple, they cannot explain you in simplicity. Then then it's all >>that's a good one. All right, guys, Thanks for the great insight. Great panel around >>Applause, right? >>Yeah. Yeah,

>>live from Miami, Florida It's the Q covering IBM is data in a I forum brought to you by IBM. >>We're back in Miami and you're watching the cubes coverage of the IBM data and a I forum. Tony hi. Amiss here is a distinguished engineer for Ditch the Digital and Cloud Business Analytics at IBM. Tony, first of all, congratulations on being a distinguished engineer. That doesn't happen often. Thank you for coming on the Cube. Thank you. So your area focus is on the B I and the Enterprise performance management space. >>Um, and >>if I understand it correctly, a big mission of yours is to try to modernize those make himself service, making cloud ready. How's that going? >>It's going really well. I mean, you know, we use things like B. I and enterprise performance management. When you really boil it down, there's that's analysis of data on what do we do with the data this useful that makes a difference in the world, and then this planning and forecasting and budgeting, which everyone has to do whether you are, you know, a single household or whether you're an Amazon or Boeing, which are also some of our clients. So it's interesting that we're going from really enterprise use cases, democratizing it all the way down to single user on the cloud credit card swipe 70 bucks a month >>so that was used to be used to work for Lotus. But Cognos is one of IBM's largest acquisitions in the software space ever. Steve Mills on his team architected complete transformation of IBM is business and really got heavily into it. I think I think it was a $5 billion acquisition. Don't hold me to that, but massive one of the time and it's really paid dividends now when all this sort of 2000 ten's came in and said, Oh, how Duke's gonna kill all the traditional b I traditional btw that didn't happen, that these traditional platforms were a fundamental component of people's data strategies, so that created the imperative to modernize and made sure that there could be things like self service and cloud ready, didn't it? >>Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, the work clothes that we run a really sticky were close right when you're doing your reporting, your consolidation or you're planning of your yearly cycle, your budget cycle on these technologies, you don't rip them out so easily. So yes, of course, there's competitive disruption in the space. And of course, cloud creates on opportunity for work loads to be wrong, Cheaper without your own I t people. And, of course, the era of digital software. I find it myself. I tried myself by it without ever talking to a sales person creates a democratization process for these really powerful tools that's never been invented before in that space. >>Now, when I started in the business a long, long time ago, it was called GSS decision support systems, and they at the time they promised a 360 degree view with business That never really happened. You saw a whole new raft of players come in, and then the whole B I and Enterprise Data Warehouse was gonna deliver on that promise. That kind of didn't happen, either. Sarbanes Oxley brought a big wave of of imperative around these systems because compliance became huge. So that was a real tailwind for it. Then her duke was gonna solve all these problems that really didn't happen. And now you've got a I, and it feels like the combination of those systems of record those data warehouse systems, the traditional business intelligence systems and all this new emerging tech together are actually going to be a game changer. I wonder if you could comment on >>well so they can be a game changer, but you're touching on a couple of subjects here that are connected. Right? Number one is obviously the mass of data, right? Cause data has accelerated at a phenomenal pace on then you're talking about how do I then visualize or use that data in a useful manner? And that really drives the use case for a I right? Because A I in and of itself, for augmented intelligence as we as we talk about, is only useful almost when it's invisible to the user cause the user needs to feel like it's doing something for them that super intuitive, a bit like the sort of transition between the electric car on the normal car. That only really happens when the electric car can do what the normal car can do. So with things like Imagine, you bring a you know, how do cluster into a B. I solution and you're looking at that data Well. If I can correlate, for example, time profit cost. Then I can create KP eyes automatically. I can create visualizations. I know which ones you like to see from that. Or I could give you related ones that I can even automatically create dashboards. I've got the intelligence about the data and the knowledge to know what? How you might what? Visualize adversity. You have to manually construct everything >>and a I is also going to when you when you spring. These disparage data sets together, isn't a I also going to give you an indication of the confidence level in those various data set. So, for example, you know, you're you're B I data set might be part of the General ledger. You know of the income statement and and be corporate fact very high confidence level. More sometimes you mention to do some of the unstructured data. Maybe not as high a confidence level. How our customers dealing with that and applying that first of all, is that a sort of accurate premise? And how is that manifesting itself in terms of business? Oh, >>yeah. So it is an accurate premise because in the world in the world of data. There's the known knowns on the unknown knowns, right? No, no's are what you know about your data. What's interesting about really good B I solutions and planning solutions, especially when they're brought together, right, Because planning and analysis naturally go hand in hand from, you know, one user 70 bucks a month to the Enterprise client. So it's things like, What are your key drivers? So this is gonna be the drivers that you know what drives your profit. But when you've got massive amounts of data and you got a I around that, especially if it's a I that's gone ontology around your particular industry, it can start telling you about drivers that you don't know about. And that's really the next step is tell me what are the drivers around things that I don't know. So when I'm exploring the data, I'd like to see a key driver that I never even knew existed. >>So when I talk to customers, I'm doing this for a while. One of the concerns they had a criticisms they had of the traditional systems was just the process is too hard. I got to go toe like a few guys I could go to I gotta line up, you know, submit a request. By the time I get it back, I'm on to something else. I want self serve beyond just reporting. Um, how is a I and IBM changing that dynamic? Can you put thes tools in the hands of users? >>Right. So this is about democratizing the cleverness, right? So if you're a big, broad organization, you can afford to hire a bunch of people to do that stuff. But if you're a startup or an SNB, and that's where the big market opportunity is for us, you know, abilities like and this it would be we're building this into the software already today is I'll bring a spreadsheet. Long spreadsheets. By definition, they're not rows and columns, right? Anyone could take a Roan Collin spreadsheet and turn into a set of data because it looks like a database. But when you've got different tabs on different sets of data that may or may not be obviously relatable to each other, that ai ai ability to be on introspect a spreadsheet and turn into from a planning point of view, cubes, dimensions and rules which turn your spreadsheet now to a three dimensional in memory cube or a planning application. You know, the our ability to go way, way further than you could ever do with that planning process over thousands of people is all possible now because we don't have taken all the hard work, all the lifting workout, >>so that three dimensional in memory Cuba like the sound of that. So there's a performance implication. Absolutely. On end is what else? Accessibility Maw wraps more users. Is that >>well, it's the ability to be out of process water. What if things on huge amounts of data? Imagine you're bowing, right? Howdy, pastors. Boeing How? I don't know. Three trillion. I'm just guessing, right? If you've got three trillion and you need to figure out based on the lady's hurricane report how many parts you need to go ship toe? Where that hurricane reports report is you need to do a water scenario on massive amounts of data in a second or two. So you know that capability requires an old lap solution. However, the rest of the planet other than old people bless him who are very special. People don't know what a laugh is from a pop tart, so democratizing it right to the person who says, I've got a set of data on as I still need to do what if analysis on things and probably at large data cause even if you're a small company with massive amounts of data coming through, people click. String me through your website just for example. You know what if I What if analysis on putting a 5% discount on this product based on previous sales have that going to affect me from a future sales again? I think it's the democratizing as the well is the ability to hit scale. >>You talk about Cloud and analytics, how they've they've come together, what specifically IBM has done to modernize that platform. And I'm interested in what customers are saying. What's the adoption like? >>So So I manage the Global Cloud team. We have night on 1000 clients that are using cloud the cloud implementations of our software growing actually so actually Maur on two and 1/2 1000. If you include the multi tenant version, there's two steps in this process, right when you've got an enterprise software solution, your clients have a certain expectation that your software runs on cloud just the way as it does on premise, which means in practical terms, you have to build a single tenant will manage cloud instance. And that's just the first step, right? Because getting clients to see the value of running the workload on cloud where they don't need people to install it, configure it, update it, troubleshoot it on all that other sort of I t. Stuff that subtracts you from doing running your business value. We duel that for you. But the future really is in multi tenant on how we can get vast, vast scale and also greatly lower costs. But the adoptions been great. Clients love >>it. Can you share any kind of indication? Or is that all confidential or what kind of metrics do you look at it? >>So obviously we look, we look a growth. We look a user adoption, and we look at how busy the service. I mean, let me give you the best way I can give you is a is a number of servers, volume numbers, right. So we have 8000 virtual machines running on soft layer or IBM cloud for our clients business Analytics is actually the largest client for IBM Cloud running those workloads for our clients. So it's, you know, that the adoption has been really super hard on the growth continues. Interestingly enough, I'll give you another factoid. So we just launched last October. Cognos Alex. Multi tenant. So it is truly multi infrastructure. You try, you buy, you give you credit card and away you go. And you would think, because we don't have software sellers out there selling it per se that it might not adopt as much as people are out there selling software. Okay, well, in one year, it's growing 10% month on month cigarette Ally's 10% month on month, and we're nearly 1400 users now without huge amounts of effort on our part. So clearly this market interest in running those softwares and then they're not want Tuesdays easer. Six people pretending some of people have 150 people pretending on a multi tenant software. So I believe that the future is dedicated is the first step to grow confidence that my own premise investments will lift and shift the cloud, but multi tenant will take us a lot >>for him. So that's a proof point of existing customer saying okay, I want to modernize. I'm buying in. Take 1/2 step of the man dedicated. And then obviously multi tenant for scale. And just way more cost efficient. Yes, very much. All right. Um, last question. Show us a little leg. What? What can you tell us about the road map? What gets you excited about the future? >>So I think the future historically, Planning Analytics and Carlos analytics have been separate products, right? And when they came together under the B I logo in about about a year ago, we've been spending a lot of our time bringing them together because, you know, you can fight in the B I space and you can fight in the planning space. And there's a lot of competitors here, not so many here. But when you bring the two things together, the connected value chain is where we really gonna win. But it's not only just doing is the connected value chain it and it could be being being vice because I'm the the former Lotus guy who believes in democratization of technology. Right? But the market showing us when we create a piece of software that starts at 15 bucks for a single user. For the same power mind you write little less less of the capabilities and 70 bucks for a single user. For all of it, people buy it. So I'm in. >>Tony, thanks so much for coming on. The kid was great to have you. Brilliant. Thank you. Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. You watching the Cube live from the IBM data and a I form in Miami. We'll be right back.

our Studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hey welcome back here ready Jeff Rick here with the cube we're in our pal 2 studios today for a cube conversation to talk about a pretty interesting topic right which is the security issue that is pervasive and needs to be baked in all over the place and combining that with networking and software to find networking which is often talked about as kind of the last area of really software-defined execution and a lot of activity around SD win so we're happy to have with us today from Fortin at John Madison he's the CMO and EVP of products for fortinet John great to see you you too and also joining us from Atlanta is Hilton styrsky he is the CIO of Crawford & Company Hilton great to see you as well so let's just jump into it big issue right Crawford & Company Hilton give us a little bit of the which you guys are and more importantly kind of what a distributed company that you are y SD win and when particularly is a pretty important piece of the equation absolutely SD wins very important to us as we look at growth so I'm a confident company we are 77 year old you asked in management's claims company we we haven't focus on restoring and enhancing lives businesses in communities in 2018 we processed about one and a half million claims they are translated into north of fifteen billion dollars in payments but more importantly when you think about the insurance space and really any highly transactional organization will go through a digital disruption and korfin and company is no difference and in particular with the culture of innovation that we have a profiling company we looking at all facets of the business to disrupt and that's our basic infrastructure all the way to the business process applications that interact with our customers and when we think about the network that's the lifeblood of our organization span in seven countries with almost 9,000 employees and NATO it touches every facet of our organization and our business and being on an innovative modern technology enables us to support the Scanlan growth that's invariably coming down the pipes in this industry thank you thanks for that summary and John over to you you know we got a lot of conferences as we go to your guys conference we go to RSA and security the topic because all these security needs to bake be baked in throughout the process it can't just be added on at the end and you guys have taken that to heart so tell us a little bit about you know your guys solution in this SD win space and how you're approaching it slightly differently yes he'll concern just about every company's going through this digital disruption and that means they really need to make sure that network is of high quality high speed can access the applications but most importantly is secure so what we do is make sure with all my networking gear and SDRAM being a specific example that security is totally integrated within that solution and you do it in a different way - right you're not just doing it with software but you've actually introduced you know a hardware component into this into this equation as well yeah well now obviously the software is still very important to make sure you can orchestrate and you've got the feature set but earlier this year we announced the the world's first sd1 ASIC which allows us to get that performance of the networking stack and security stack on a single appliance we're talking about five to 10 X performance and again allows the customer such as Crawford to run and networking and their security in that single appliance so help I'm curious from your perspective I have to say I feel sorry for CIOs cuz that you know as again we go to all these shows we walk around there's so much technology and in security specifically when you walk around RSA as the the granddaddy of all those conferences you know there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of vendors and I think my goodness how do you go through how do you evaluate so you know what do you do when you're looking for technology partners among this giant sea of potential opportunities and people telling you to do this that and the other you got to find a partner that's going to help you absolutely so I mean they're number of facets that come to that but first and foremost we take security and privacy not just security extremely or seriously hope it ends because of that we rely on our cyber team to help us make decisions and drive those discussion so these relationships are not just you know come about because of benefits that we see on white papers or interactions with the PIO they really are driven from our cyber organization in the indian research that they do envy attend products we're not just looking for a sexy brands name to put in our our branches in our data centers but we're really looking for a tried and tested product and it wasn't a network that really came down to our cyber team because of the integrated nature of the ESD way and the security applies it to em i'm curious in terms of the changing kind of government regulations you know ii had gdpr we've got the California Privacy Act has that impacted your you know kind of prioritization of security and privacy or has that always just been a top priority and that's just you know kind of another box to check yeah man it's always been there we haven't seen it impacted from a sigh from a networking perspective tea to date but as we think about applications we're looking for the flexibility in the application stack to adhere to GT bernini quite frankly any other regulatory control been in the insurance industry we are highly regulated and that type of scale and flexibility is something that we look to as we build new products more modern future and John to you I'm just curious you know some of the advantages of bringing these two things together to really bake the security and the SD win appliance what is that enable you to do that you couldn't do so much before well it's all about supporting the business and the applications so corporate for example you know obviously voice is very important to me they speak to a lot of people and branch offices video training their applications in the cloud and so bringing mass security and that networking together and accelerating it means they get a high quality of service to all the applications which are important to their business so what's next John what are some of the the things as you look forward and you see this this market to continuing to evolve you guys are really starting to take a real leadership position what are some of your priorities as you as you look forward and we're gonna flip the calendar here in just a few short months you know and definitely you know sd-1 an application on our appliance has exploded we just announced we're actually in the top three in terms of sd-1 benders globally what's coming next well I think what we call cloud on-ramp isn't very important where we provide specific routes and information to make sure we have even higher QoS of devices and users getting to the applications and I knew that on the land side of it was starting to roll out something called ST branch which gives you the same kind of fabric topology view control and workflow of access from Wi-Fi from Ethernet switching and we've also integrated nak network access control which gives you that visibility control of IOT devices great so I want it I want to give you the last word you know to share with your peers as they're going through this journey a lot of talk about digital transformation but when the rubber hits the road right you actually got to do do the things and do the small things that make a difference as you've gone through this and you've dealt the security you got a lot of remote branches this continuation around hybrid cloud and and distributed infrastructure what are some of the things on your top of mind and what would you share with some of your peers as they you know start to look at some of these technologies well you've got to have an open mindset and obviously like anything it's okay to fail as long as you learn from your mistakes but as we think specifically about our network and coordinate in particular I think trying to reference some of the technologies and that that requires a lot of data so you need to understand what the future looks like and provide a scale and flexible solution for our customers and John also reference Borden ACK we are in the process of deploy in that and it's all about having that single pane of glass in an integrated solution and makes it easier for a smaller supports team to manage and ultimately Triberr you and Ally investments and other parts of their company well Hilton I know we're up against it on the time I want to thank you for for taking some time out of your busy day and lovely Atlanta and sharing your story and John you know nothing but continued success to you and fortunate we've really been happy to be part of the story and share it and come to the conference's and just another step on that on that journey to success thank you thanks a lot all right thanks gentlemen all right you've been watching the cube from our Palo Alto studios thanks for watching we'll see you next time [Music]

>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo Live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem. Barker's >> back to San Diego. Everybody watching the Cube, the leader and live tech coverage. My name is Dave Volante, and I'm with my co host, Steuben. Amanda, this is Day two for Sisqo. Live 2019. We're in the definite. So still. I was walking around earlier in the last interview, and I think I saw Ron Burgundy out there. Stay classy Sleeping Gow is here. He's the founder and CEO of Met Net Brain Technology's just outside of Boston. Thanks very much for coming on the Q. Thank you there. So you're very welcome. So I want to ask you, I always ask Founders passion for starting companies. Why did you start? >> Well, maybe tired of doing things, Emmanuel. Well, that's alongside the other side of Yes, I used Teo took exam called a C C. I a lot of folks doing here. I failed on my first try. There was a big blow to my eagle, so I decided that we're gonna create a softer help them the past. This is actually the genesis of nettle. I met a friend help people three better doing their network management. >> That's a great story. So tell us more about that brain. What do you guys all about? >> Sure, we're the industry. First chasing time. Little confirmations after our mission is to Democrat ties. Merrick Automation. Every engineer, every task. They should've started with automation before human being touched. This task, >> you know, way go back. Let's say, 10 years ago people were afraid of automation. You know, they thought I was going to take away their jobs. They steal and they still are. We'll talk about that. You get this and I want to ask you about the blockers. They were fearful they wanted the touch thing. But the reality is people talk about digital transformation. And it's really all about how you use data, how your leverage data. And you can't be spending your time doing all this stuff that doesn't add value to your business. You have to automate that and move up to more valuable test. But so people are still afraid of automation. Why, what's the blocker there? >> They have the right reason to be afraid. Because so many automation was created a once used exactly wass right. And then you have the cost ofthe tradition automation. You have the complexity to create in their dark automation. You guys realize that middle confirmation You cannot have little gotta measure only work on a portion of your little way. You have to walk on maturity if not all of your narrow right. So that's became very complex. Just like a You wanna a self driving car? 10 You can't go buy a Tesla a new car. You can drive on a song. But if you want to your Yoder Puta striving always song Richard feared it. That's a very complex Well, let's today, Netto. Condemnation had to deal with you. Had a deal with Marty Venna Technology Marty, years of technology. So people spent a lot of money return are very small. There's so they have a right to a fair afraid of them. But the challenges there is what's alternative >> way before you're there. So there, if I understand it, just playing back there, solving a very narrow problem, they do it once, maybe twice. Maybe a rudimentary example would be a script. Yeah, right, right. And then it breaks or it doesn't afford something else in the network changes, and it really doesn't affect that, right? >> Yeah. I mean, you know, I think back to money network engineers. It's like, Well, I'm sitting there, I've got all my keep knobs and I get everything done and they say, No, don't breathe on it because it's just the way I want it less. It can't be that doesn't scale. It doesn't respond to the business. I need to be able to, you know, respond fast what is needed. And things are changing in every environment. So it's something that I couldn't, as you know, a person or a team keep up with myself, and therefore I need to have more standardized components, and I need to have intelligence that can help me. >> Let's sit and let's >> s so we've laid out the generalized way that we've laid out the problem. What's what's the better approach? >> Well, give you looking out of the challenge today is you have to have Dave ups, which a lot of here they have not engineer know howto script and the mid off the engineer who know how little cooperates walk together. So there's a date, a part of it. There's a knowledge. A part of this too has to meet to create a narrow coordination and that Ned Ogata may have to be a scale. So the challenge traditional thoracotomy here, why is for short lie on if you're going down? Technical level is wise A terra, too many data and structure and the otherwise Our knowledge knowledge cannot be codified. So you have the knowledge sitting people's head, right, Eh Programa had to walk in with a narrow canyon near together. You make it a cost hire. You make it a very unskilled apple. So those are the challenge. So how fast Motor way have to do so neither brand for last 15 years You decide to look differently that we created some saying called operating system off total network and actually use this to manage over 1,000 of mental models technology. And he threw problem. You can't continually adding new savings into this problem. So the benefit of it is narrow. Canyon near anybody can create automation. They don't have to know how to writing a code. Right? And Deborah, who knows the code can also use this problem. All the people who are familiar with technology like and people they can integrate that never >> pray. Okay, so you have all this data I wish I could say is unstructured So he doesn't have any meaning. Data's plentiful insights aren't, uh And then you have this what I call tribal knowledge. Joe knows how to do it, but nobody else knows how to do it. So you're marrying those two. How are you doing that? Using machine intelligence and and iterating building models, can you get that's amore colors? Tow How you go about that? What's the secret sauce >> way? Took a hybrid approach. First call on you have to more than the entire network. With this we'll kind of operating system called on their own way have about 20 12,000 valuables modeling a device and that 12,000 valuable adults across your let's say 1,000 known there or there will be 12,000,000 valuables describing your medal. That's that's first. Zang on top of 12,000,000 valuables will be continually monitored. A slow aye aye, and the machine learning give something called a baseline data. But on top of it, the user, the human being will have the knowledge young what is considered normal what is considered abnormal. They can add their intelligence through something called excludable rumble on couple of this system, and their system now can be wrong at any time. Which talking about where somebody attacking you when that OK is un afford all you through a human being, all our task Now the automation can be wrong guessing time. So >> this the expert, the subject matter expert, the main expert that the person with the knowledge he or she can inject that neck knowledge into your system, and then it generates and improves overtime. That's right, >> and it always improve, and other people can open the hood. I can't continue improving. Tell it so the whole automation in the past, it was. Why is the writer wants only used once? Because it's a colossal? It's a script. You I you input and output just text. So it wasn't a designer with a company, has a motive behind it. So you do it, You beauty your model. You're writing a logical whizzing a same periods off, we decided. We think that's you. Cannot a scale that way. >> OK, so obviously you can stop Dave from inputting his lack of knowledge into the system with, you know, security control and access control. Yeah, but there must be a bell curve in terms of the quality of the knowledge that goes into the system. You know, Joe might be a you know, a superstar. And, you know, stew maybe doesn't know as much about it. No offense, too. Student. So good. So how do you sort of, you know, balance that out? Do you tryto reach an equilibrium or can you wait? Jos Knowledge more than Stu's knowledge. How does that work? >> So the idea that this automation platform has something called excludable Rambo like pseudo Rambo can sure and implacably improved by Sri source One is any near themselves, right? The otherwise by underlying engine. So way talk about a I and the machine learning we have is that we also have a loo engine way. Basically, adjusting that ourselves certainly is through Claverie Partner, for example, Sisko, who run many years of Qatar where they have a lot of no house. Let's attack that knowledge can be pushed to the user. We actually have a in our system that a partnership with Cisco attack South and those script can be wrong. slow. Never prayer without a using woman getting the benefit of without talking with attack. Getting the answer? >> Yes, I think you actually partially answered. The question I have is how do you make sure we don't automata bad process? Yeah. So And maybe talk a little bit about kind of the training process to your original. Why of the company is to make things easier. You know, What's the ramp up period for someone that gets in giving me a bit of a how many engineers you guys have >> worked with? The automatic Allied mission. Our mission statement of neda prayer is to Democrat ties. Network automation, you know, used to be network automation on ly the guru's guru to it. Right, Dave off. Send a satchel. And a young generation. My generation who used come, Ally, this is not us, right? This is the same, you know. But we believe nowadays, with the complicity of middle with a cloud, computing with a cybersecurity demand the alternative Genetic automation is just no longer viable. So way really put a lot of starting to it and say how we can put a network automation into everyone's hand. So the things we tell as three angle of it, while his other missions can be created by anyone, the second meaning they've ofthe net off. Anyone who know have knowledge on metal can create automation. Second piece of automation can lunched at any time. Somebody attacking you middle of the night. They don't tell you Automation can lunch to protect Theo, and they're always out. You don't have people the time of the charter. Automation can lunch the tax losses, so it's called a lunch. Any time certain want is can adapt to any work follow. You have trouble shooting. You have nettle changes. You have compliance, right? You have documentation workflow. The automation should be able to attack to any of this will clothe topping digression tomorrow. We have when service now. So there's a ticket. Human being shouldn't touches a ticket before automation has dies, she'll write. Is a human should come in and then use continually use automation. So >> So you talk about democratizing automation network automation. So it's so anybody who sees a manual process that's wasting time. I can sort of solve that problem is essentially what you're >> doing. That's what I did exactly what we >> know So is there, uh, is there a pattern emerging in terms of best practice in terms of how customers are adopting your technology? >> Yes. Now we see more animal customer creating This thing's almost like a club, the power user, and we haven't caught it. Normal user. They have knowledge in their heads. Pattern immunity is emergent. We saw. Is there now work proactively say, How can I put that knowledge into a set of excludable format so that I don't get escalate all the time, right? So that I can do the same and more meaningful to me that I be repeating the same scene 10 times a month? Right? And I should want it my way. Caught a shift to the left a little while doing level to the machine doing the Level one task level two. Level three are doing more meaningful sex. >> How different is what you're doing it net brain from what others are doing in the marketplace. What's the differentiation? How do you compete? >> Yeah, Little got 1,000,000 so far has being a piecemeal, I think, a fragment. It's things that has done typical in a sweeping cracker. Why is wholesale Hardaway approach you replace the hardware was esti N S P. Where's d? Let there's automation Capitol Building Fifth, I caught a Tesla approached by a Tesla, and you can drive and a self driving. The second approaches softer approach is as well. We are leading build a model of your partner or apply machine learning and statistics and was behind but also more importantly, open architecture. Allow a human being to put their intelligence into this. Let's second approach and insert approaches. Actually service little outsourcer take you, help you We're moving way or walk alone in the cloud because there's a paid automation there, right so way are focusing on the middle portion of it. And the landscaper is really where we have over 2,000 identifies customer and they're automating. This is not a just wall twice a week, but 1,000 times a day. We really excited that the automation in that escape scale is transforming how metal and is being managed and enable things like collaboration. But I used to be people from here. People from offshore couldn't walk together because knowledge, data and knowledge is hard to communicate with automation. We see collaboration is happening more collaboration happening. So we've >> been talking about automation in the network for my entire career. Feels like the promise has been there for decades. That site feels like over the last couple of years, we've really seen automation. Not just a networking, but we've been covering a lot like the robotic process automation. All the different pieces of it are seeing automation. Bring in, gives a little bit look forward. What? What do you predict is gonna happen with automation in I t over the next couple of years? A >> future that's great Way have a cloud computing. We have cyber security. We have the share of scale middle driving the network automation to the front and center as a solution. And my prediction in the next five years probably surrounded one izing automation gonna be ubiquitous. Gonna be everywhere. No human being should touch a ticket without automation through the first task. First right second way. Believe things called a collaborative nature of automation will be happy. The other was a local. Automation is following the packet from one narrow kennedy to the other entity. Example would be your manager service provider and the price they collaborated. Manager Nettle common little But when there's something wrong we don't know each part Which part? I have issues so automation define it by one entity Could it be wrong Across multiple So is provider like cloud provider also come Automation can be initiated by the Enterprise Client way also see the hado A vendor like Cisco and their customer has collaborated Automation happening So next five years will be very interesting The Manu away to manage and operate near Oca will be finally go away >> Last question Give us the business update You mentioned 2,000 customers You're hundreds of employees Any other business metrics you Khun, you can share with us Where do you want to take this company >> way really wanted behind every enterprise. Well, Misha is a Democrat. Eyes network automation way Looking at it in the next five years our business in a girl 10 times. >> Well, good luck. Thank you. Thanks very much for coming on the queue of a great story. Thank you. Thank you for the congratulations For all your success. Think Keep right! Everybody stew and I will be back. Lisa Martin as well as here with an X guest Live from Cisco Live 2019 in San Diego. You watching the cube right back

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering del Technologies. World twenty nineteen, brought to you by Del Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back. Everyone's cubes. Live coverage. Day three wrap up of Del Technologies World twenty nineteen Java is Dave a lot. There's too many men on set one. We get set to over there blue set, White said. We got a lot of content. It's been a cube can, in guise of a canon of content firing into the digital sphere. Great gas. We had all the senior executive players Tech athletes. Adele Technology World. Michael Dell, Tom Sweet, Marius Haas, Howard Ally As we've had Pat Kelsey, rco v M were on the key partner in the family. They're of del technology world and we had the clients guys on who do alien where, as well as the laptops and the power machines. Um, we've had the power edge guys on. We talked about Hollywood. It's been a great run, but Dave, it's been ten years Stew. Remember, the first cube event we ever went to was DMC World in Boston. The chowder there he had and that was it wasn't slogan of of the show turning to the private cloud. Yeah, I think that was this Logan cheering to the private cloud that was twenty ten. >> Well, in twenty ten, it was Cloud Cloud Cloud Cloud Cloud twenty nineteen. It's all cloud now. That difference is back then it was like fake cloud and made up cloud and really was no substance to it. We really started to see stew, especially something that we've been talking about for years, which is substantially mimicking the public cloud on Prem. Now I know there are those who would say No, no, no, no, no. And Jessie. Probably in one of those that's not cloud. So there's still that dichotomy is a cloud. >> Well, Dave, if I could jump in on that one of the things that's really interesting is when Veum, where made that partnership with a ws It was the ripple through this ecosystem. Oh, what's that mean for Del you know Veum, wherein Del not working together Well, they set the model and they started rolling out bm where, and they took the learnings that they had. And they're bringing that data center as a service down to the Dell environment. So it's funny I always we always here, you know, eight of us, They're learning from their partners in there listening and everything like that. Well, you know, Dylan Veum where they've been listening, they've been learning to in this, and it brings into a little bit of equilibrium for me, that partnership and right, David, you said, you know that you could be that cloud washing discussion. And today it's, you know, we're talking about stacks that live in eight of us and Google and Microsoft. And now, in, you know, my hosted or service lighter or, you know, my own data center. If that makes sense, >> I mean, if you want to just simplify the high order bit, Dave Cloud. It's simply this Amazon's trying to be enterprised everyone, the enterprise, trying to claw Amazon, right? And so what? The what that basically means is it's all cloud. It's all a distributed computer system. OK, Scott McNealy had it right. The network is the computer. If you look at what's going on here, the traditional enterprise of vendors over decades of business model and technology, you know, had full stack solutions from mainframe many computers to PC the local area networking all cobble together wires it up creates applications, services. All that is completely being decimated by a new way to roll out storage, computing and networking is the same stuff. It's just being configured differently. Throw on massive computer power with Cloud and Moore's Law and Data and A. I U have a changing of the the architecture. But the end of the day the cloud is operating model of distributed computing. If you look at all the theories and pieces of computer science do and networking, all those paradigms are actually playing out in in the clouds. Everything from a IIE. In the eighties and nineties you got distributed networking and computing, but it's all one big computer. And Michael Dell, who was the master of the computer industry building PCs, looks at this. Probably leg. It's one big computer. You got a processor and subsystems. So you know this is what's interesting. Amazon has done that, and if they try to be like the enterprise, like the old way, they could fall into that trap. So if the enterprise stays in the enterprise, they know they're not going out. So I think it's interesting that I see the enterprise trying to like Amazon Amazon trying to get a price. So at the end of the day, whoever could build that system that's scalable the way I think Dell's doing, it's great. I was only scaleable using data for special. So it's a distributed computer. That's all that's going on in the world right now, and it's changing everything. Open source software is there. All that makes it completely different, and it's a huge opportunity. Whoever can crack the code on this, it's in the trillions and trillions of dollars. Total adjustable market >> well, in twenty ten we said that way, noted the gap. There's still a gap between what Amazon could do and what the on Prem guys Khun Dio, we'd argue, is a five years is seven years, maybe ten years, whatever it is. But at the time we said, if you recall, lookit, they got to close the gap. It's got to be good enough for I t to buy into it like we're starting to see that. But my view, it's still not cloud. It doesn't have to scale a cloud, doesn't have the economics cloud. When you peel the onion, it doesn't certainly doesn't have the SAS model and the consumption model of cloud nowhere close yet. Well, and you know, >> here's the drumbeat of innovation that we see from the public cloud. You know where we hit the shot to show this week, the public have allowed providers how many announcements that they probably had. Sure, there was a mega launch of announcements here, but the public lives just that regular cadence of their, you know, Public Cloud. See a CD. We're not quite there yet in this kind of environment, it's still what Amazon would say is. You put this in an environment and it's kind of frozen. Well, it's thought some, and it's now we can get data set. A service consumption model is something we can go. We're shifting in that model. It's easier to update things, but you know, how do I get access to the new features? But we're seeing that blurring of the line. I could start moving services that hybrid nature of the environment. We've talked a few times. We've been digging into that hybrid cloud taxonomy and some of the services to span because it's not public or private. It's now truly that hybrid and multi environment and customers are going to live in. And all of >> the questions Jonah's is good enough to hold serve >> well. I think the reality is is that you go back to twenty ten, the jury in the private cloud and it's enterprises almost ten years to figure out that it's real. And I think in that time frame Amazon is absolutely leveled. Everybody, we call that the tsunami. Microsoft quickly figures out that they got to get Cloud. They come in there, got a fast followers. Second, Google's trying to retool Oracle. I think Mr Bo completely get Ali Baba and IBM in there, so you got the whole cloud game happening. The problem of the enterprises is that there's no growth in terms of old school enterprise other than re consolidate in position for Cloud. My question to you guys is, Is there going to be true? True growth in the classic enterprise business or, well, all this SAS run on clouds. So, yes, if it's multi cloud or even hybrid for the reasons they talk about, that's not a lot of growth compared to what the cloud can offer. So again, I still haven't seen Dave the visibility in my mind that on premises growth is going to be massive compared to cloud. I mean, I think cloud is where Sassen lives. I think that's where the scale lives we have. How much scale can you do with consolidation? We >> are in a prolonged bull market that that started in twenty ten, and it's kind of hunger. In the tenth year of a of a decade of bull market, the enterprise market is cyclical, and it's, you know, at some point you're going to start to see a slowdown cloud. I mean, it's just a tiny little portion of the market is going to continue to gain share cloud can grow in a downturn. The no >> tell Motel pointed out on this, Michael Dell pointed out on the Cubans, as as those lieutenants, the is the consolidation of it is just that is a retooling to be cloud ready operationally. That's where hybrid comes in. So I think that realization has kicked in. But as enterprises aren't like, they're not like Google and Facebook. They're not really that fast, so So they've got to kind of get their act together on premises. That's why I think In the short term, this consolidation and new revitalisation is happening because they're retooling to be cloud ready. That is absolutely happen. But to say that's the massive growth studio >> now looked. It is. Dave pointed out that the way that there is more than the market growth is by gaining market share Share share are areas where Dell and Emcee didn't have large environment. You know, I spent ten years of DMC. I was a networking. I was mostly storage networking, some land connectivity for replication like srd Evan, like today at this show, I talked a lot of the telco people talk to the service of idle talk where the sd whan deny sirrah some of these pieces, they're really starting to do networking. That's the area where that software defined not s the end, but the only in partnership with cos like Big Switch. They're getting into that market, and they have such small market share their that there's huge up uplift to be able to dig into the giant. >> Okay, couple questions. What percent of Dell's ninety one billion today is multi cloud revenue. Great question. Okay, one percent. I mean, very small. Okay. Very small hero. Okay? And is that multi cloud revenue all incremental growth isat going to cannibalize the existing base? These? Well, these are the fundamentals weighs six local market that I'm talking to >> get into this. You led the defense of conversations. We had Tom Speed on the CFO and he nailed us. He said There's multiple levers to shareholder growth. Pay down the debt check. He's got to do that. You love that conversation. Margin expansion. Get the margins up. Use the client business to cover costs. As you said, increased go to market efficiency and leverage. The supply chain that's like their core >> fetrow of cash. And that all >> these. The one thing he said that was mind blowing to me is that no one gets the valuation of how valuable Del Technologies is. They're throwing off close to seven billion dollars in free cash flow free cash flow. Okay, so you can talk margin expansion all you want. That's great, but there got this huge cash flow coming in. You can't go out of business worth winning if you don't run out of cash >> in the market. When the market is good, these guys are it is good a position is anybody, and I would argue better position than anybody. The question on the table that I'm asking is, how long can it last? And if and when the market turns down and markets always cyclical we like again. We're in the tenth year of a bull market. I mean, it's someone >> unprecedented gel can use the war chest of the free cash flow check on these levers that they're talking about here, they're gonna have the leverage to go in during the downturn and then be the cost optimizer for great for customers. So right now, they're gonna be taking their medicine, creating this one common operating environment, which they have an advantage because they have all the puzzle pieces. You A Packer Enterprises doesn't have the gaping holes in the end to end. They can't address us, >> So that is a really good point that you're making now. So then the next question is okay. If and when the downturn turn comes, who's going to take advantage of it, who's going to come out stronger? >> I think Amazon is going to be continued to dominate, and as long as they don't fall into the enterprise trap of trying to be too enterprising, continue to operate their way for enterprises. I think jazz. He's got that covered. I think DEL Technologies is perfectly positioned toe leverage, the cash flow and the thing to do that. I think Cisco's got a great opportunity, and I think that's something that you know. You don't hear a lot of talk about the M where Cisco war happening. But Cisco has a network. They have a developer ecosystem just starting to get revitalized. That's an opportunity. So >> I got thoughts on Cisco, too. But one of things I want to say about Del being able to come out of that stronger. I keep saying I've said this a number of times and asked a lot of questions this week is the PC business is vital for Del. It's almost half the company's revenue. Maybe not quite, but it it's where the company started it. It sucks up a lot of corporate overhead. >> If Hewlett Packard did not spin out HP HP, they would be in the game. I think spinning that out was a huge mistake. I wrote about a publicly took a lot of heat for it, but you know I try to go along with the HPD focus. Del has proven bigger is better. HP has proven that smaller is not as leverage. And if it had the PC that bee have the mojo in gaming had the mojo in the edge, and Dale's got all the leverage to cross pollinate the front end and edge into the back and common cloud operate environment that is going to be an advantage. And that's going to something that will see Well, let me let me >> let me counter what you just said. I agree. You know this this minute. But the autonomy was the big mistake. Once hp autonomy, you know what Meg did was almost a fatal complete. They never should've bought autonomy >> makers. Levi Protector he was. So he was there. >> But she inherited that bag of rocks. And then what you gonna do with it? Okay, so that's why they had to spend out and did create shareholder value. If they had not purchased autonomy, then he would return much better shape, not to split it up. And they would be a much stronger competitor. >> And I share holder Pop. They had a pop on value. People made some cash with long game. I think that >> going toe peon base actually done pretty well for a first year holding a standalone PC company. So, but again, I think Del. With that leverage, assuming pieces, it's going to be really interesting. I don't know much about that market. You were loving that PC conversation, but the whole, you know, the new game or markets and and the new wayto work throwing an edge in there, I don't know is ej PC and edges that >> so the peanut butter. And so the big thing that Michael get the big thing, Michael Dell said on the Cube was We're not a conglomerate were an integrated company. And when you have an integrated company like this, with the tech the tech landscape shifting to their advantage, you have the ability to cross subsidize. So strategy game. Matt Baker was here we'd be talking about OK, I can cross subsidize margin. You've brought it up on the client side. Smaller margins, but it pays a lot of the corporate overhead. Absolutely. Then you got higher margin GMC business was, you know, those margins that's contributing. And so when you have this new configuration. You can cross, subsidize and move and shift, so I think that's a great advantage. I think that's undervalued in the market place. And I think, you know, I think Del stock price is, well, undervalue. Point out the numbers they got VM wear and their question is, What what point is? VM where blink and go All in on del technology stew. Orcas Remember that Gus was gonna partner. You don't think the phone was ringing off the hook in Palo Alto from their parties? What? What's this as your deal? So Vienna. There's gotta be the neutral party. Big problem. The opportunity. >> Well, look, if I'm a traditional historical partner of'Em are, it's not the Azure announcement that has me a little bit concerned because all of them partner with Microsoft to it is how tightly combined. Del and Veum, where are the emcee, always kept them in arms like now they're in the same. It's like Dave. They're blending it. It's like, you know Del, from a market cap standpoint, gets fifty cents on the dollar. VM wears a software company, and they get their multiples. Del is not a software company, but VM where well, people are. Well, if we can win that a little bit, maybe we could get that. >> Marty still Isn't it splendid? No, no, I think the strategy is absolutely right on. You have to go hard with VM wear and use it as a competitive weapon. But, Stuart, your point fifty cents and all, it's actually much worse than that. I mean the numbers. If you take out of'Em, wears the VM wear ownership, you take out the core debt and you look at the market value you're left with, like a billion dollars. Cordell is undervalued. Cordell is worth more than a billion or two billion dollars. Okay, so it's a really cheap way to buy Veum. Where Right that the Tom Sweet nailed this, he said. You know, basically, these company those the streets not used to tech companies having such big debt. But to your point, John, they're throwing off cash. So this company is undervalued, in my view. Now there's some risks associated with that, and that's why the investors of penalizing them for that debt there, penalizing him from Michael's ownership structure. You know, that's what this is, but >> a lack of understanding in my opinion. I think I think you're right. I just think they don't understand. Look at Dale and they think G You don't look a day Ellen Think distributed computing system with software, fill in those gaps and all that extra ten expansion. It's legit. I think they could go after new market opportunities as as a twos to us as the client business. I mean mere trade ins and just that's massive trillions of dollars. It's, I think I think that is huge. But I'm >> a bull. I'm a bull on the value of the company. I know >> guys most important developments. Del technology world. What's the big story that you think is coming out of the show here? >> Well, it's definitely, you know, the VM wear on del I mean, that is the big story, and it's to your point. It's Del basically saying we're going to integrate this. We're going to hard, we're going to go hard and you know Veum wear on Dell is a preferred solution. No doubt that is top for Dell and PacBell Singer said it. Veum wearing eight of us is the first and preferred solution. Those are the two primary vectors. They're going to drive hard and then Oh, yeah, we'Ll listen to customers Whatever else you want Google as you're fine, we're there. But those two vectors, they're going to Dr David >> build on that because we saw the, um we're building out of multi cloud strategy and what we have today is Del is now putting themselves in there as a first class citizen. Before it was like, Oh, we're doing VX rail and Anna sex and, you know, we'LL integrate all these pieces there, but infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure now it is. It is multi cloud. We want to see that the big table, >> right, Jeff, Jeff Clarke said, Why are you doing both? Let's just one strategy, one company. It's all one Cash registers that >> saying those heard that before. I think the biggest story to me is something that we've been seeing in the Cuban laud, you know, been Mom. This rant horizontally scaleable operating environment is the land grab and then vertically integrate with data into applications that allow each vertical industry leverage data for the kind of intimate, personalized experiences for user experiences in each industry. With oil and gas public sector, each one has got their own experiences that are unique. Data drives that, but the horizontal and tow an operating model when it's on premises hybrid or multi cloud is a huge land grab. And I think that is a major strategic win for Dell, and I think, as if no one challenges them on this. Dave, if HP doesn't go on, emanate change. If H h p e does not do it em in a complete changeover from strategy and pulling, filling their end to end, I think that going to be really hurting I think there's gonna be a tell sign and we'LL see, See who reacts and challenges Del on this in ten. And I think if they can pull it off without being contested, >> the only thing I would say that the only thing I would say that Jonah's you know, HP, you know very well I mean, they got a lot of loyal customers and is a huge market out there. So it's >> Steve. Look at economic. The economics are shifting in the new world. New use cases, new step function of user experiences. This is this is going to be new user experiences at new economic price points that's a business model. Innovation, loyal customers that's hard to sustain. They'Ll keep some clutching and grabbing, but everyone will move to the better mousetrap in the scenario. So the combination of that stability with software it's just this as a big market. >> So John twenty ten Little Table Back Corner, you know of'em See Dylan Blogger World double set. Beautiful says theatre of present lot of exchange and industry. But the partnership in support of this ecosystem. It's something that helped us along the way. >> You know, when we started doing this, Jeff came on board. The team has been amazing. We have been growing up and getting better every show. Small, incremental improvements here and there has been an amazing production, Amazing team all around us. But the support of the communities do this is has been a co creation project from day one. We love having this conversation's with smart people. Tech athletes make it unique. Make it organic, let the page stuff on on the other literature pieces go well. But here it's about conversations for four and with the community, and I think the community sponsorship has been part of funding mohr of it. You're seeing more cubes soon will be four sets of eight of US four sets of V M World four sets here. Global Partners sets I'm used to What have we missed? >> Yeah, it's phenomenal. You know, we're at a unique time in the industry and honored to be able to help documented with the two of you in the whole team. >> Dave, How it Elias sitting there giving him some kind of a victory lap because we've been doing this for ten years. He's been the one of the co captains of the integration. He says. There's a lot of credit. >> Yeah, Howard has had an amazing career. I I met him like literally decades ago, and he has always taken on the really hard jobs. I mean, that's I think, part of his secret success, because it's like he took on the integration he took on the services business at at AMC U members to when Joe did you say we're a product company? No services company. I was like, Give me services. Take it. >> It's been on the Cube ten years. Dave. He was. He was John away. He was on fire this week. I thought bad. Kelsey was phenomenal. >> Yeah, he's an amazing guest. Tom Tom Suite, You know, very strong moments. >> What's your favorite Cuban? I'LL never forget. Joe Tucci had my little camera out film and Joe Tucci, Anna. One of the sessions is some commentary in the hallway. >> Well, that was twenty ten, one of twenty eleven, I think one of my favorite twenty ten moments I go back to the first time we did. The cue was when you asked Joe Tucci, you know why a storage sexy. Remember that? >> A He never came on >> again. Ah, but that was a mean. If you're right, that was a cube mean all for the next couple of years. Remember, Tom Georges, we have because I'm not touching. That was >> so remember when we were critical of hybrid clouds like twenty, twelve, twenty, thirteen I go, Pat is a hybrid cloud, a halfway house to the final destination of public loud. He goes to a halfway house, three interviews. This was like the whole crowd was like, what just happened? Still favorite moment. >> Oh, gosh is a mean so money here, John. As you said, just such a community, love. You know, the people that we've had on for ten years and then, you know, took us, you know, three or four years to before we had Michael Dell on. Now he's a regular on our program with luminaries we've had on, you know, but yeah, I mean, twenty ten, you know, it's actually my last week working for him. See? So, Dave, thanks for popping me out. It's been a fun ride, and yeah, I mean, it's amazing to be able to talk to this whole community. >> Favorite moment was when we were at eighty bucks our first show. We're like, We still like hell on this. James Hamilton, Andy Jazzy Come on up, Very small show. Now it's a monster, David The Cube has had some good luck. Well, we've been on the right waves, and a lot of a lot of companies have sold their companies. Been part of Q comes when public Unicorns New Channel came on early on. No one understood that company. >> What I'm thrilled about to Jonah's were now a decade, and we're documenting a lot of the big waves. One of one of the most memorable moments for me was when you called me up. That said, Hey, we're doing a dupe world in New York. I got on a plane and went out. I landed in, like, two. Thirty in the morning. You met me. We did to dupe World. Nobody knew what to do was back then it became, like, the hottest thing going. Now nobody talks about her dupe. So we're seeing these waves and the Cube was able to document them. It's really >> a pleasure. The Cube can and we got the Cube studios sooner with cubes Stories with Cube Network too. Cue all the time, guys. Thanks. It's been a pleasure doing business with you here. Del Technologies shot out the letter. Chuck on the team. Sonia. Gabe. Everyone else, Guys. Great job. Excellent set. Good show. Closing down. Del Technologies rose two cubes coverage. Thanks for watching

>> From Gillette Stadium in Foxboro, Massachusetts, if the queue recovering Vita Winter warmer, twenty nineteen Brought to you by Silicon Angle media. >> Hi. I'm stupid men. And this is the cubes coverage of V tug Winter warmer. Twenty nineteen here. A Gillette Stadium, home of the New England Patriots. Happy to welcome to the program. A community member, Someone I've known for many years at this point. Jonathan Frappe here. Who's with V Brown bag? Thanks so much for joining us from >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, so, you know, I watched this event, and when it started, it was, you know, originally the V mug for New England. And then it became vey tug And one, there's some of the politics stuff which we don't need to go into, but part of it was virtual ization and cloud. And what's the interaction there and what will users have to do? Different. And part of that is jobs. And one of the reasons I really wanted to bring you on is, you know, you started out heavy in that virtual ization base and you've been going through those machinations. So maybe just give our audience a little bit about, you know, your background, some of the things skill sets. You've got lots of acronyms on your on your you know, resume as it is for certification. You've done. So let's start there. >> Sure. So my background. I started this help desk. I did Windows two thousand Active Directory, administration and Exchange Administration all on site and moved into Mohr server administration. And when the empire started to become a thing, I was like, Wow, this is This is a game changer and I need to sort of shift my skill set. I understand the applications of music. I've been supporting him. But virtualization is going to change change That so started to shift there and saw a similar thing with Public Cloud and automation a cz, That same sort of next step beyond infrastructure management. >> All right. And you've had a bunch of certification. The real off a few. You know what? Where are you today? What? What have you added gives a little bit of a timeline. >> My first certification was a plus which come to you seemingly has come around and joined the ranks of posting toe linked in for everybody. So a plus was my first one. EMC PM, CSC on Windows two thousand. Took a little bit of a break in back into it. Bcp five era so four, five years ago. Cem Cem. Other of'em were Certs NSX Cloud see Emma and most recently, the solution's architect associate for a Ws. >> OK, great, in when you look at the kind of virtual ization and cloud, it's not like you thirst, which one day and said, Okay, I no longer need the VM were stuff. I'm going to do the cloud tell us a little bit about you know what led you to start doing the cloud and you know how you you know how your roles that you've had and you know the skill set that you want to have for your career. You know how you look at those. >> So for me, it is about being able to support what my business is doing. And sometimes the right answer's going to be VM, where sometimes it's going to be physical. Sometimes it's going to be containers or public cloud, or, you know, new fancy buzzwords like server lists. And I've always in my career tried to support what where, what application we're delivering to get the business, the information they need. So for me to do that properly, I need to be well versed across all of that infrastructure so that when when it's time to deliver something in public cloud or time to deliver something in the container, I'm ready to go when you do that. >> Yeah. What? What? What's the push and pull for some of the training bin? Is this something that you've seen? You said, like Veum, where you saw it, like, Oh, my gosh, I need to hop on that. You know, I remember back to those early days I remember engineers I worked with that were just like, this thing is amazing. That was like preview motion, even. Yeah, but you know, just what? That that impact we've seen over the last, you know, ten to fifteen years of that growth has there been times where the business is coming said, Hey, can you go learn this? Kaixian orders have been you driving most about yourself. Uh, >> it's it's been both. There are times when the business has come and said, Hey, we would really like to take advantage of virtual ization or public cloud. And it from a technology perspective, there may have been other factors that would impact the ability to do that. So that's why for me. I tried to sort of stay ahead of it when, you know virtual ization was taking off and everything I had was on physical servers. I knew I needed to have the VM where peace in my pocket so that when the business was ready and when other things like compliance, we're ready for it. We could move forward and sort of advanced that same thing with Public Cloud. Now that that's Mohr prevalent and sort of accepted in the industry a lot more cos they're moving in that direction. >> Yeah, and you know, what tips would you give your Pierre if they're a virtual ization person? You know, how are the waters in the cloud world is there are a lot of similarities. Is it? You know, do I have to go relearn and, oh, my gosh, I need to go learn coding for two years before I understand how to do any of this stuff. >> I think it's helpful. Tto learn some level of coding, but do it in an environment that you're comfortable in today. So if you're of'em were admin today, you know there's power, see Ally and be realized orchestrator and and even if you're on via Mars Cloud platform there's there's some basic power shell on bass scripting you could do in the cloud Automation. Get comfortable with the environment, you know. And then as that comfort grows when you move Oh, look, there's power shell commandments for a ws. If that's the route, you go so oh, already understand the format and how I how I glue those things together so you could get comfortable in the environment you're in today and sort of get ready for whatever that next step is. >> Yeah, I've always found I find it interesting. Look at these ecosystems and see where the overlaps and where two things come together. You know, I actually worked with Lennox for about twenty years. So I you know, back when I worked at Emcee the storage company and I supported the Lenox Group and Lennox was kind of this side thing. And then you kind of saw that grow over time and Lennox and virtual ization. We're kind of parallel, but didn't overlap is much. And then when we get to the cloud, it feels like everybody ended up in that space and there were certain skill sets that clinics people had that made it easy to do cloud in certain things that the fertilization people had that made it easy do there. But we're kind of all swimming in the same pools. We see that now in the, you know, core bernetti space. Now I see people I know from all of those communities on, but it's kind of interesting. Curious if you have anything you've seen in kind of the different domains and overlapping careers. >> Yes, you. For me. I think what's help is focusing on how the applications the business uses consumed, what some of the trends are around, how you know whether finance or marketing teams are interacting with those applications. If I know how the application works and what I need to do something to support it, the concepts aren't going to be vastly different. If I know how Exchange's install their sequel servers install, there's some custom application is insult. I could do that across the VM, where environment native US environment and should it supported into Docker by leveraging Cooper Netease. >> All right, so you've mentioned about the time the application, can you? How has it changed your relationship with kind of the application owners as you go from, you know, physical, virtual, the cloud. >> I don't think it should change much. The problem probably the biggest shift that you have is that at some point now, things are out of your control. So when I've got a server sitting in my data center that I can walk down the hallway to if something's not working, I have access to it. If there's an application down in the public cloud, or there's an A Ws outage or any public cloud provider outage, I have to wait. And that sort of I think the thing that I've seen business struggle with the most like, well, it's down, go fix it. It's like, I can't get to it right now, and I'm probably not driving to Virginia, Oregon to go reboot that server for Amazon. >> Whoever absolutely big shift we've seen right is, you know a lot of what I is. It I am managing is now things that aren't in my environment. You know, there was my data centers. My might have had hosted data centers where I'd call somebody up, you know, you know, tell the Rex paper person to reboot the servers or it's right, it's in the public cloud. In which case it's like, OK, what tools. What can I trouble shoot myself? Or is there some, you know, out of that I'm not aware of, you know, is affecting me. Yeah, >> it's Ah, it's a good shift to have for a infrastructure person because we're really getting to the point now. I think the tails, the scales have tipped to focusing more on delivering business value versus delivering infrastructure. The CFO doesn't necessarily think or care that spinning up a new V m faster is cool. They care about getting their application to their team so that they could do their work. So I think taking, you know, going to public cloud or going to other platforms where that's removed it sort of forces you to move to supporting supporting those business applications. >> So I'm curious it every time we have one of these generational shift time. Time is like, Oh, my gosh, I'm going to be out of a job on the server ID men Virtualization is going to get rid of me. I'm a virtual ization Had been cloud's going to get rid of me. This whole server listing will probably just get rid of all the infrastructure people I've read article yesterday was called the Creeping Apocalypse a CZ what they called it. But, you know, you know what you saying is there general fear in your peers or, you know, do you just, you know, dive in and understand it and learn it? If you could stay, you know, up with or a little bit ahead of the curve, you know you're going to keep employed. >> I would say that there's a mix there. Some people, even just a few months ago, some some folks I talked to and they were just sort of breaking into automation and like how they can automate deploying their applications in their legitimate concern, was I won't have a job anymore and sort of the way I looked at that was my job's going to change. I don't spend my entire day administering Windows two thousand active directory boxes any more. So I need Yes, I need to shift that and start thinking about what's next. If I can automate the routine task, you know, deploying an application, patching and application, bringing things up and down when there's some sort of failure than I, uh, I'm going to naturally grow my career in that way by getting rid of the boring stuff. >> Yeah, and I've been here in this argument against automation for decades now, and the question I always put two people is like, Look, if I could give you an extra hour a day or an extra day a week, do you have other projects that you could be doing or things that the business is asking for? That would be better. And I've yet to find somebody that didn't say, Yeah, of course, on DH. What are the things that you're doing that it would be nice to get rid of, You know, other people is like I love the serenity of racking and stacking cabling stuff. And nothing gets people more excited than beautiful cables in Iraq. I thought yesterday I saw people like going off about here's this data center with these beautiful, you know, rack, you know? So with the cable ties and everything, but I'm like, really, you know, there's more value you can add absolutely out there. So >> automate yourself into your next job. It is sort of the way I think I like to think about it. It's not a meeting, >> so let's you know, just look forward a little bit, you know? There's all these waves, you know, Cloud been a decade data was talking to keep downs in this morning on the Cube on we said, you know, when he talks to users, it's their data that super important applications absolutely is what drives, uh, you know, my infrastructure, but it's the data that's the super important piece. So you know, whether it be, you know, you're a I or, you know, you figure various buzz word of the day I ot You know, data is in the center. So what do you looking forward to is? Are there new search or new training that that are exciting? You are areas that you think you're Pierre should be poking out to help try to stay ahead of the curve. >> Yeah, and back to my earlier point about leveraging the thing you know today and how to sort of grow your career. And that next skill set is how I can look at data and make. I understand what's going on around that. So maybe maybe today that's taking some stats from any SX. I hosted an application and correlating that data together on help. You underst Yes. And you know what that means for the applicator action before or use their calls in. And that's going to help you grow into sort of this new realm of like, machine learning and big data. And in analytics, which I think is really the next thing that we're going to need to start doing as Mohr and more of that infrastructure shifted away into surveillance platforms and things that were not worried about How can I understand? How can I take that data? Transform it, use it, correlated together to, you know, help make decisions. >> Alright, on final thing, give us update on our friends at V Brown bag. So, you know, we talked Well, I always say, you know, when we go to V m world, it's like we're there. I'm trying to help kind of balance between the business and the technology. You want to go a little deeper and really geek out and understand some of these things. That's where you know the V brown bag. You know, people are going to be able to dig in with the community in the ecosystem. There was the V and V brown bag for virtual ization. But he brown bags doing much more than just traditional virtualization today. You know what? What? What's on the docket? >> Eso upcoming This year, we're gonna have some episodes around Python so helping add men's get to know Python start to get comfortable with it, Which would be a great language to a automate things that maybe you're doing today in your application, but also to be able to take data and and use Python, too. Manage that data extract value out of that data so that you can help make decisions. So look for the throughout this year and, you know, learn new things. >> All right, Jonathan, from pure pleasure to talk with you on camera after talking to off camera for many years. Thanks so much for joining us. All right. And we appreciate you joining us at this virtual ization and cloud user event. Ve tug Winter warmer. Twenty nineteen on student a minute. Thanks for watching the cue