>> John Furrier: Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 2023 North America the inaugural event. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, along with Dave Alonte and Lisa Martin covering from the studio. But we have on location Emmy Eide, who is with Red Hat, director of Supply Chain Security. Emmy, great to have you on from location. Thanks for joining us. >> Emmy Eide: Yeah, thank you. >> So everyone wants to know this event is new, it's an aural event, cloud native con, coup con. Very successful. Was this event successful? They all want to know what's going on there. What's the vibe? What's the tracks like? Is it different? Why this event? Was it successful? What's different? >> Yeah, I've really enjoyed being here. The food is wonderful. There's also quite a few vendors here that are just some really cool emerging technologies coming out and a lot from open source, which is really cool to see as well. The talks are very interesting. It's really, they're very diverse in subject but still all security related which is really cool to see. And there's also a lot of different perspectives of how to approach security problems and the people behind them, which I love to see. And it's very nice to hear the different innovative ideas that we can go about doing security. >> We heard from some startups as well that they're very happy with the, with the decision to have a dedicated event. Red Hat is no stranger to open source. Obviously coup con, you guys are very successful there in cloud native con, Now the security con. Why do you think they did this? What's the vibe? What's the rationale? What's your take on this? And what's different from a topic standpoint? >> For non-security specific like events? Is that what you mean? >> What's different from coup con, cloud native con, and here at the cloud native security con? Obviously security's the focus. Is it just deeper dives? Is it more under the hood? Is it root problems or is this beyond Kubernetes? What's the focus, I guess. People want to know, you know, why the new event? >> I mean, there's a lot of focus on supply chain security, right? Like that's the hot topic in security right now. So that's been a huge focus. I can't speak to the differences of those other conferences. I haven't been able to attend them. But I will say that having a security specific conference, it really focuses on the open community and how technology is evolving, and how do you apply security. It's not just talking about tools which I think other conferences tend to focus on just the tools and you can really, I think, get lost in that as someone trying to learn about security or trying to even implement security, but they talk about what it takes to implement those tools, What's behind the people behind implementing those tools? >> Let's get into some of the key topics that we've identified and get your reaction. One, supply chain security, which I know you'll give a lot of commentary on 'cause that's your focus. Also we heard, like, Liz Rice talking about the extended Berkeley packet filtering. Okay, that's big. You know, your root kernel management, that's big. Developer productivity was kind of implied around removing the blockers of security, making it, you know, more aligned with developer first mentality. So that seems to be our takeaway. What's your reaction to those things? You see the same thing? >> I don't have a specific reaction to those things. >> Do you see the same thing happening on the ground there? Are they covering supply? >> Oh, yeah. >> Those three things are they the big focus? >> Yeah. Yeah, I think it's all of those things kind of like wrapped into one, right? But yeah, there's... I'm not sure how to answer your question. >> Well, let's jump into supply chain for instance. 'Cause that has come up a lot. >> Sure. >> What's the focus there on the supply chain security? Is it SBOMs? Is it the container security? What's the key conversations and topics being discussed around supply chain security? >> Well, I think there's a lot of laughter around SBOM right now because no one can really define it, specifically, and everyone's talking about it. So there's, there's a lot more than just the SBOM conversation. We're talking about like full end-to-end development process and that whole software supply chain that goes with it. So there's everything from infrastructure, security, all the way through to like signing transparency logs. Really the full gambit of supply chain, which is is really neat to see because it is such a broad topic. I think a lot of folks now are involved in supply chain security in some way. And so just kind of bringing that to the surface of what are the different people that are involved in this space, thinking about, what's on the top of their mind when it comes to supply chain security. >> How would you scope the order of magnitude of the uptick in supply chain attacks? Is it pretty heavy right now or is it, you know, people with the hair on fire or is it... What's the, give us the taste of the temperature in the room on the supply chain attacks? >> I think most of the folks who are involved in the space understand just that it's increasing. I mean, like, what is it? A 742% increase average annual year, year over year in supply chain attacks. So the amount of attacks increasing is a little daunting, right, for most of us. But it is what it is. So I think most of us right now are just trying to come together to say, "What are you doing that works? This is what I'm doing that works." And in all the different facets of that. 'cause I think we try to throw, we try to throw tools at a lot of problems and this problem is so big and broad reaching that we really are needing to share best practices as a community and as a security community. So this has been, this conference has been really great for that. >> Yeah, I've heard that a lot. You know, too many tools, not enough platform thinking, not enough architecture, needs some structure. Are you seeing any best practice around frameworks and structure around how to start getting in and and building out more of a better approach or posture? I mean, what's that, what's the, what's the state of the union for supply chain, how to handle that? >> Well, I talked about that a little bit in my my keynote that I gave, actually, which was about... And I've heard other other leaders talk about it too. And obviously it keyed my ear just because I'm so passionate about it, about partnership. So you know, empathetic security where the security team that's enforcing the policies, creating the policies, guidelines is working with the teams that are actually doing the production and the development, hand-in-hand, right? Like I can sit there and tell you, "Hey, you have all these problems and here's your security checklist or framework you need to follow." But that's not going to do them any good and it's going to create a ton of holes, right? So actually partnering with them helping them to understand the risks that are associated with their very specific need and use case, because every product has a different kind of quirk to it, right? Like how it's being developed. It might use a different tool and if I sit there and say, "Hey, you need to log on to this, you need to like make your tool work this platform over here and it's not compatible." I'm going to have to completely reframe how I'm doing productization. I need to know that as a security practitioner because me disrupting productization is not something that I should be doing. And I've heard a couple a couple of folks kind of talking about that, the people aspect behind how we implement these tools, the frameworks and the platforms, and how do we draw out risk, right? Like how do we talk about risk with these teams and really make them understand so it's part of their core culture in their understanding. So when they go back to their, when they go back and having to make decisions without me in the room they know they can make those business decisions with the risk as part of that decision. >> I love that empathetic angle because that's really going to, what needs to happen. It's not just, "Hey, that's your department, see you later." Or not even having a knowledge of the information. This idea of team construction, team management is a huge cultural shift. I'm sure the reaction was very positive. How do you explain that to an organization that's out there? Like how do you... what's the first three steps you got to take? Is there anything that you can share for advice people watch you saying, "Yeah we need to we need to change how our teams operate and interact with each other." >> Yeah, I think the first step is to take a good hard look at yourself. And if you are standing there on an ivory tower with a clipboard, you're probably doing it wrong. Check the box security is never going to be any way that works long term. It's going to take you a long time to implement any changes. At Red Hat, we did not look ourselves. You know, we've been doing a lot of great things in supply chain security for a while, but really taking that look and saying, "How can we be more empathetic leaders in the security space?" So we looked at that, then you say, "Okay, what is my my rate of change going to happen?" So if I need to make so many security changes explaining to these organizations, you're actually going to go faster. We improved our efficiency by 2000% just by doing that, just by creating this more empathetic. So why it seems like it's more hands-on, so it's going to be harder, it's easy to send out an email and say, "Hey, meet the security standard, right?" That might seem like the easy way 'cause you don't have time to engage. It's so much faster if you actually engage and share that message and have a a common understanding between the teams that like, "I'm here to deliver a product, so is the security team. The security team's here to deliver that same product and I want to help you do it in a trusted way." Right? >> Yeah. Dave Alonte, my co-host, was just on a session. We were talking together about security teams jumping on every team and putting a C on their jersey to be like the captain of the intramural team, and being involved, and it goes beyond just like the checklist, like you said, "Oh, I got the SBOM list of materials and I got a code scanning thing." That's not enough, is what we're hearing. >> No. >> Is there a framework or a methodology to go beyond that? You got the empathetic, that's really kind of team issue. You got to go beyond some of the tactical things. What's next beyond, you got the empathy and what's that framework structure when you say where you say anything there? >> So what do you do after you have the empathy, right? >> Yeah. >> I would say Salsa is a good place to start, the software levels. Supply chain levels for software artifacts. It's a mouthful. That's a really good maturity framework to start with. No matter what size organization you have, they're just going to be coming out here soon with version one. They release 0.1 a few months back. That's a really good place to give yourself a gut check of where you are in maturity and where you can go, what are best practices. And then there's the SSDF, which is the Secure Software Development framework. I think NIST wrote that one. But that is also a really, a really good framework and they map really well to each other, actually, When you work through Salsa, you're actually working through the SSDF requirements. >> Awesome. Well, great to have you on and great to get that that knowledge. I have to ask you like coup con, I remember when it started in Seattle, their first coup con events, right? Kind of small, similar to this one, but there's a lot of end user activities. Certainly the CNCF kind of was coming together like right after that. What's the end user activity like there this week? That seems to always been the driver of these events. It's a little bit organic. You got some of the key experts coming together, focus. Have you observed any end user activity in terms of contributions, participation? What's the story on the end user piece there? Is it heavy? Is it light? What's the... >> Um, yeah... It seems moderate. I guess somewhere in the middle. I would say largely heavy, but there's definitely participation. There is a lot of communing and networking happening between different organizations to partner together, which is important. But I haven't really paid attention much to like the Twitter side of this. >> Yeah, you've been busy doing the keynotes. How's Red Hat doing all this? You guys have been great positioned with the cloud native movement. Been following the Red Hat's moves since OpenStack days. Really good, good line of product, good open source, Mojo, of course. Good product mix, right, and relevant. Where's the security focus here? Obviously, you guys are clearly focused on security. How's the Red Hat story going on over there? >> There was yesterday a really good talk that explains that super well. It was given by a Red Hatter, connecting all of the open source projects we've been a part of and kind of explaining them. And obviously again, I'm keying in 'cause it's a supply chain kind of conversation, but I'd recommend that anyone who's going to go back and watch these on YouTube to check that one out just to see kind of how we're approaching the security space as well as how we contribute back to the community in that way. >> Awesome. Great to have you on. Final word, I'll give you the final word. What's the big buzz on supply chain? How would you peg the progress there? Feeling good about where things are? What's the current progress on supply chain security? >> I think that it has opened up a lot of doors for communication between security organizations that have tended to be closed. I'm in product security. Product securities, information securities tend to not speak externally about what we're doing. So you don't want to, you know, look bad or you don't want to expose any risk that we have, right? But it is, I think, necessary to open those lines of communication, to be able to start tackling this. It's a big problem throughout all of our industries, and if one supply chain is attacked and those products are used in someone else's supply chain, that can continue, right? So I think it's good. We have a lot of work to do as an industry and the advancements in technology is going to make that a little bit more complicated. But I'm excited for it. >> You can just throw AI at it. That's the big, everyone's doing AI. Just throw AI at it, it'll solve it. Isn't that the new thing? >> I do secure AI though. >> Super important. I love what you're doing there. Supply chain, open source needs, supply chain security. Open source needs this big time. It has to be there. Thank you for the work that you do. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, good stuff. Supply chain, critical to open source growth. Open source is going to be the key to success in the future with automation and AI right around the corner. And that's important. This theCUBE covers from cloud native con, security con in North America, 2023. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

Hello and welcome back to Supercloud 2 where we examine the intersection of cloud and data in the 2020s. My name is Dave Vellante. Our Supercloud panel, our power panel is back. Maribel Lopez is the founder and principal analyst at Lopez Research. Sanjeev Mohan is former Gartner analyst and principal at Sanjeev Mohan. And Keith Townsend is the CTO advisor. Folks, welcome back and thanks for your participation today. Good to see you. >> Okay, great. >> Great to see you. >> Thanks. Let me start, Maribel, with you. Bob Muglia, we had a conversation as part of Supercloud the other day. And he said, "Dave, I like the work, you got to simplify this a little bit." So he said, quote, "A Supercloud is a platform." He said, "Think of it as a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." And then Nelu Mihai said, "Well, wait a minute. This is just going to create more stove pipes. We need more standards in an architecture," which is kind of what Berkeley Sky Computing initiative is all about. So there's a sort of a debate going on. Is supercloud an architecture, a platform? Or maybe it's just another buzzword. Maribel, do you have a thought on this? >> Well, the easy answer would be to say it's just a buzzword. And then we could just kill the conversation and be done with it. But I think the term, it's more than that, right? The term actually isn't new. You can go back to at least 2016 and find references to supercloud in Cornell University or assist in other documents. So, having said this, I think we've been talking about Supercloud for a while, so I assume it's more than just a fancy buzzword. But I think it really speaks to that undeniable trend of moving towards an abstraction layer to deal with the chaos of what we consider managing multiple public and private clouds today, right? So one definition of the technology platform speaks to a set of services that allows companies to build and run that technology smoothly without worrying about the underlying infrastructure, which really gets back to something that Bob said. And some of the question is where that lives. And you could call that an abstraction layer. You could call it cross-cloud services, hybrid cloud management. So I see momentum there, like legitimate momentum with enterprise IT buyers that are trying to deal with the fact that they have multiple clouds now. So where I think we're moving is trying to define what are the specific attributes and frameworks of that that would make it so that it could be consistent across clouds. What is that layer? And maybe that's what the supercloud is. But one of the things I struggle with with supercloud is. What are we really trying to do here? Are we trying to create differentiated services in the supercloud layer? Is a supercloud just another variant of what AWS, GCP, or others do? You spoken to Walmart about its cloud native platform, and that's an example of somebody deciding to do it themselves because they need to deal with this today and not wait for some big standards thing to happen. So whatever it is, I do think it's something. I think we're trying to maybe create an architecture out of it would be a better way of saying it so that it does get to those set of principles, but it also needs to be edge aware. I think whenever we talk about supercloud, we're always talking about like the big centralized cloud. And I think we need to think about all the distributed clouds that we're looking at in edge as well. So that might be one of the ways that supercloud evolves. >> So thank you, Maribel. Keith, Brian Gracely, Gracely's law, things kind of repeat themselves. We've seen it all before. And so what Muglia brought to the forefront is this idea of a platform where the platform provider is really responsible for the architecture. Of course, the drawback is then you get a a bunch of stove pipes architectures. But practically speaking, that's kind of the way the industry has always evolved, right? >> So if we look at this from the practitioner's perspective and we talk about platforms, traditionally vendors have provided the platforms for us, whether it's distribution of lineage managed by or provided by Red Hat, Windows, servers, .NET, databases, Oracle. We think of those as platforms, things that are fundamental we can build on top. Supercloud isn't today that. It is a framework or idea, kind of a visionary goal to get to a point that we can have a platform or a framework. But what we're seeing repeated throughout the industry in customers, whether it's the Walmarts that's kind of supersized the idea of supercloud, or if it's regular end user organizations that are coming out with platform groups, groups who normalize cloud native infrastructure, AWS multi-cloud, VMware resources to look like one thing internally to their developers. We're seeing this trend that there's a desire for a platform that provides the capabilities of a supercloud. >> Thank you for that. Sanjeev, we often use Snowflake as a supercloud example, and now would presumably would be a platform with an architecture that's determined by the vendor. Maybe Databricks is pushing for a more open architecture, maybe more of that nirvana that we were talking about before to solve for supercloud. But regardless, the practitioner discussions show. At least currently, there's not a lot of cross-cloud data sharing. I think it could be a killer use case, egress charges or a barrier. But how do you see it? Will that change? Will we hide that underlying complexity and start sharing data across cloud? Is that something that you think Snowflake or others will be able to achieve? >> So I think we are already starting to see some of that happen. Snowflake is definitely one example that gets cited a lot. But even we don't talk about MongoDB in this like, but you could have a MongoDB cluster, for instance, with nodes sitting in different cloud providers. So there are companies that are starting to do it. The advantage that these companies have, let's take Snowflake as an example, it's a centralized proprietary platform. And they are building the capabilities that are needed for supercloud. So they're building things like you can push down your data transformations. They have the entire security and privacy suite. Data ops, they're adding those capabilities. And if I'm not mistaken, it'll be very soon, we will see them offer data observability. So it's all works great as long as you are in one platform. And if you want resilience, then Snowflake, Supercloud, great example. But if your primary goal is to choose the most cost-effective service irrespective of which cloud it sits in, then things start falling sideways. For example, I may be a very big Snowflake user. And I like Snowflake's resilience. I can move from one cloud to another cloud. Snowflake does it for me. But what if I want to train a very large model? Maybe Databricks is a better platform for that. So how do I do move my workload from one platform to another platform? That tooling does not exist. So we need server hybrid, cross-cloud, data ops platform. Walmart has done a great job, but they built it by themselves. Not every company is Walmart. Like Maribel and Keith said, we need standards, we need reference architectures, we need some sort of a cost control. I was just reading recently, Accenture has been public about their AWS bill. Every time they get the bill is tens of millions of lines, tens of millions 'cause there are over thousand teams using AWS. If we have not been able to corral a usage of a single cloud, now we're talking about supercloud, we've got multiple clouds, and hybrid, on-prem, and edge. So till we've got some cross-platform tooling in place, I think this will still take quite some time for it to take shape. >> It's interesting. Maribel, Walmart would tell you that their on-prem infrastructure is cheaper to run than the stuff in the cloud. but at the same time, they want the flexibility and the resiliency of their three-legged stool model. So the point as Sanjeev was making about hybrid. It's an interesting balance, isn't it, between getting your lowest cost and at the same time having best of breed and scale? >> It's basically what you're trying to optimize for, as you said, right? And by the way, to the earlier point, not everybody is at Walmart's scale, so it's not actually cheaper for everybody to have the purchasing power to make the cloud cheaper to have it on-prem. But I think what you see almost every company, large or small, moving towards is this concept of like, where do I find the agility? And is the agility in building the infrastructure for me? And typically, the thing that gives you outside advantage as an organization is not how you constructed your cloud computing infrastructure. It might be how you structured your data analytics as an example, which cloud is related to that. But how do you marry those two things? And getting back to sort of Sanjeev's point. We're in a real struggle now where one hand we want to have best of breed services and on the other hand we want it to be really easy to manage, secure, do data governance. And those two things are really at odds with each other right now. So if you want all the knobs and switches of a service like geospatial analytics and big query, you're going to have to use Google tools, right? Whereas if you want visibility across all the clouds for your application of state and understand the security and governance of that, you're kind of looking for something that's more cross-cloud tooling at that point. But whenever you talk to somebody about cross-cloud tooling, they look at you like that's not really possible. So it's a very interesting time in the market. Now, we're kind of layering this concept of supercloud on it. And some people think supercloud's about basically multi-cloud tooling, and some people think it's about a whole new architectural stack. So we're just not there yet. But it's not all about cost. I mean, cloud has not been about cost for a very, very long time. Cloud has been about how do you really make the most of your data. And this gets back to cross-cloud services like Snowflake. Why did they even exist? They existed because we had data everywhere, but we need to treat data as a unified object so that we can analyze it and get insight from it. And so that's where some of the benefit of these cross-cloud services are moving today. Still a long way to go, though, Dave. >> Keith, I reached out to my friends at ETR given the macro headwinds, And you're right, Maribel, cloud hasn't really been about just about cost savings. But I reached out to the ETR, guys, what's your data show in terms of how customers are dealing with the economic headwinds? And they said, by far, their number one strategy to cut cost is consolidating redundant vendors. And a distant second, but still notable was optimizing cloud costs. Maybe using reserve instances, or using more volume buying. Nowhere in there. And I asked them to, "Could you go look and see if you can find it?" Do we see repatriation? And you hear this a lot. You hear people whispering as analysts, "You better look into that repatriation trend." It's pretty big. You can't find it. But some of the Walmarts in the world, maybe even not repatriating, but they maybe have better cost structure on-prem. Keith, what are you seeing from the practitioners that you talk to in terms of how they're dealing with these headwinds? >> Yeah, I just got into a conversation about this just this morning with (indistinct) who is an analyst over at GigaHome. He's reading the same headlines. Repatriation is happening at large scale. I think this is kind of, we have these quiet terms now. We have quiet quitting, we have quiet hiring. I think we have quiet repatriation. Most people haven't done away with their data centers. They're still there. Whether they're completely on-premises data centers, and they own assets, or they're partnerships with QTX, Equinix, et cetera, they have these private cloud resources. What I'm seeing practically is a rebalancing of workloads. Do I really need to pay AWS for this instance of SAP that's on 24 hours a day versus just having it on-prem, moving it back to my data center? I've talked to quite a few customers who were early on to moving their static SAP workloads onto the public cloud, and they simply moved them back. Surprising, I was at VMware Explore. And we can talk about this a little bit later on. But our customers, net new, not a lot that were born in the cloud. And they get to this point where their workloads are static. And they look at something like a Kubernetes, or a OpenShift, or VMware Tanzu. And they ask the question, "Do I need the scalability of cloud?" I might consider being a net new VMware customer to deliver this base capability. So are we seeing repatriation as the number one reason? No, I think internal IT operations are just naturally come to this realization. Hey, I have these resources on premises. The private cloud technologies have moved far along enough that I can just simply move this workload back. I'm not calling it repatriation, I'm calling it rightsizing for the operating model that I have. >> Makes sense. Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> If I missed something, Dave, why we are on this topic of repatriation. I'm actually surprised that we are talking about repatriation as a very big thing. I think repatriation is happening, no doubt, but it's such a small percentage of cloud migration that to me it's a rounding error in my opinion. I think there's a bigger problem. The problem is that people don't know where the cost is. If they knew where the cost was being wasted in the cloud, they could do something about it. But if you don't know, then the easy answer is cloud costs a lot and moving it back to on-premises. I mean, take like Capital One as an example. They got rid of all the data centers. Where are they going to repatriate to? They're all in the cloud at this point. So I think my point is that data observability is one of the places that has seen a lot of traction is because of cost. Data observability, when it first came into existence, it was all about data quality. Then it was all about data pipeline reliability. And now, the number one killer use case is FinOps. >> Maribel, you had a comment? >> Yeah, I'm kind of in violent agreement with both Sanjeev and Keith. So what are we seeing here? So the first thing that we see is that many people wildly overspent in the big public cloud. They had stranded cloud credits, so to speak. The second thing is, some of them still had infrastructure that was useful. So why not use it if you find the right workloads to what Keith was talking about, if they were more static workloads, if it was already there? So there is a balancing that's going on. And then I think fundamentally, from a trend standpoint, these things aren't binary. Everybody, for a while, everything was going to go to the public cloud and then people are like, "Oh, it's kind of expensive." Then they're like, "Oh no, they're going to bring it all on-prem 'cause it's really expensive." And it's like, "Well, that doesn't necessarily get me some of the new features and functionalities I might want for some of my new workloads." So I'm going to put the workloads that have a certain set of characteristics that require cloud in the cloud. And if I have enough capability on-prem and enough IT resources to manage certain things on site, then I'm going to do that there 'cause that's a more cost-effective thing for me to do. It's not binary. That's why we went to hybrid. And then we went to multi just to describe the fact that people added multiple public clouds. And now we're talking about super, right? So I don't look at it as a one-size-fits-all for any of this. >> A a number of practitioners leading up to Supercloud2 have told us that they're solving their cloud complexity by going in monocloud. So they're putting on the blinders. Even though across the organization, there's other groups using other clouds. You're like, "In my group, we use AWS, or my group, we use Azure. And those guys over there, they use Google. We just kind of keep it separate." Are you guys hearing this in your view? Is that risky? Are they missing out on some potential to tap best of breed? What do you guys think about that? >> Everybody thinks they're monocloud. Is anybody really monocloud? It's like a group is monocloud, right? >> Right. >> This genie is out of the bottle. We're not putting the genie back in the bottle. You might think your monocloud and you go like three doors down and figure out the guy or gal is on a fundamentally different cloud, running some analytics workload that you didn't know about. So, to Sanjeev's earlier point, they don't even know where their cloud spend is. So I think the concept of monocloud, how that's actually really realized by practitioners is primary and then secondary sources. So they have a primary cloud that they run most of their stuff on, and that they try to optimize. And we still have forked workloads. Somebody decides, "Okay, this SAP runs really well on this, or these analytics workloads run really well on that cloud." And maybe that's how they parse it. But if you really looked at it, there's very few companies, if you really peaked under the hood and did an analysis that you could find an actual monocloud structure. They just want to pull it back in and make it more manageable. And I respect that. You want to do what you can to try to streamline the complexity of that. >> Yeah, we're- >> Sorry, go ahead, Keith. >> Yeah, we're doing this thing where we review AWS service every day. Just in your inbox, learn about a new AWS service cursory. There's 238 AWS products just on the AWS cloud itself. Some of them are redundant, but you get the idea. So the concept of monocloud, I'm in filing agreement with Maribel on this that, yes, a group might say I want a primary cloud. And that primary cloud may be the AWS. But have you tried the licensed Oracle database on AWS? It is really tempting to license Oracle on Oracle Cloud, Microsoft on Microsoft. And I can't get RDS anywhere but Amazon. So while I'm driven to desire the simplicity, the reality is whether be it M&A, licensing, data sovereignty. I am forced into a multi-cloud management style. But I do agree most people kind of do this one, this primary cloud, secondary cloud. And I guarantee you're going to have a third cloud or a fourth cloud whether you want to or not via shadow IT, latency, technical reasons, et cetera. >> Thank you. Sanjeev, you had a comment? >> Yeah, so I just wanted to mention, as an organization, I'm complete agreement, no organization is monocloud, at least if it's a large organization. Large organizations use all kinds of combinations of cloud providers. But when you talk about a single workload, that's where the program arises. As Keith said, the 238 services in AWS. How in the world am I going to be an expert in AWS, but then say let me bring GCP or Azure into a single workload? And that's where I think we probably will still see monocloud as being predominant because the team has developed its expertise on a particular cloud provider, and they just don't have the time of the day to go learn yet another stack. However, there are some interesting things that are happening. For example, if you look at a multi-cloud example where Oracle and Microsoft Azure have that interconnect, so that's a beautiful thing that they've done because now in the newest iteration, it's literally a few clicks. And then behind the scene, your .NET application and your Oracle database in OCI will be configured, the identities in active directory are federated. And you can just start using a database in one cloud, which is OCI, and an application, your .NET in Azure. So till we see this kind of a solution coming out of the providers, I think it's is unrealistic to expect the end users to be able to figure out multiple clouds. >> Well, I have to share with you. I can't remember if he said this on camera or if it was off camera so I'll hold off. I won't tell you who it is, but this individual was sort of complaining a little bit saying, "With AWS, I can take their best AI tools like SageMaker and I can run them on my Snowflake." He said, "I can't do that in Google. Google forces me to go to BigQuery if I want their excellent AI tools." So he was sort of pushing, kind of tweaking a little bit. Some of the vendor talked that, "Oh yeah, we're so customer-focused." Not to pick on Google, but I mean everybody will say that. And then you say, "If you're so customer-focused, why wouldn't you do a ABC?" So it's going to be interesting to see who leads that integration and how broadly it's applied. But I digress. Keith, at our first supercloud event, that was on August 9th. And it was only a few months after Broadcom announced the VMware acquisition. A lot of people, myself included said, "All right, cuts are coming." Generally, Tanzu is probably going to be under the radar, but it's Supercloud 22 and presumably VMware Explore, the company really... Well, certainly the US touted its Tanzu capabilities. I wasn't at VMware Explore Europe, but I bet you heard similar things. Hawk Tan has been blogging and very vocal about cross-cloud services and multi-cloud, which doesn't happen without Tanzu. So what did you hear, Keith, in Europe? What's your latest thinking on VMware's prospects in cross-cloud services/supercloud? >> So I think our friend and Cube, along host still be even more offended at this statement than he was when I sat in the Cube. This was maybe five years ago. There's no company better suited to help industries or companies, cross-cloud chasm than VMware. That's not a compliment. That's a reality of the industry. This is a very difficult, almost intractable problem. What I heard that VMware Europe were customers serious about this problem, even more so than the US data sovereignty is a real problem in the EU. Try being a company in Switzerland and having the Swiss data solvency issues. And there's no local cloud presence there large enough to accommodate your data needs. They had very serious questions about this. I talked to open source project leaders. Open source project leaders were asking me, why should I use the public cloud to host Kubernetes-based workloads, my projects that are building around Kubernetes, and the CNCF infrastructure? Why should I use AWS, Google, or even Azure to host these projects when that's undifferentiated? I know how to run Kubernetes, so why not run it on-premises? I don't want to deal with the hardware problems. So again, really great questions. And then there was always the specter of the problem, I think, we all had with the acquisition of VMware by Broadcom potentially. 4.5 billion in increased profitability in three years is a unbelievable amount of money when you look at the size of the problem. So a lot of the conversation in Europe was about industry at large. How do we do what regulators are asking us to do in a practical way from a true technology sense? Is VMware cross-cloud great? >> Yeah. So, VMware, obviously, to your point. OpenStack is another way of it. Actually, OpenStack, uptake is still alive and well, especially in those regions where there may not be a public cloud, or there's public policy dictating that. Walmart's using OpenStack. As you know in IT, some things never die. Question for Sanjeev. And it relates to this new breed of data apps. And Bob Muglia and Tristan Handy from DBT Labs who are participating in this program really got us thinking about this. You got data that resides in different clouds, it maybe even on-prem. And the machine polls data from different systems. No humans involved, e-commerce, ERP, et cetera. It creates a plan, outcomes. No human involvement. Today, you're on a CRM system, you're inputting, you're doing forms, you're, you're automating processes. We're talking about a new breed of apps. What are your thoughts on this? Is it real? Is it just way off in the distance? How does machine intelligence fit in? And how does supercloud fit? >> So great point. In fact, the data apps that you're talking about, I call them data products. Data products first came into limelight in the last couple of years when Jamal Duggan started talking about data mesh. I am taking data products out of the data mesh concept because data mesh, whether data mesh happens or not is analogous to data products. Data products, basically, are taking a product management view of bringing data from different sources based on what the consumer needs. We were talking earlier today about maybe it's my vacation rentals, or it may be a retail data product, it may be an investment data product. So it's a pre-packaged extraction of data from different sources. But now I have a product that has a whole lifecycle. I can version it. I have new features that get added. And it's a very business data consumer centric. It uses machine learning. For instance, I may be able to tell whether this data product has stale data. Who is using that data? Based on the usage of the data, I may have a new data products that get allocated. I may even have the ability to take existing data products, mash them up into something that I need. So if I'm going to have that kind of power to create a data product, then having a common substrate underneath, it can be very useful. And that could be supercloud where I am making API calls. I don't care where the ERP, the CRM, the survey data, the pricing engine where they sit. For me, there's a logical abstraction. And then I'm building my data product on top of that. So I see a new breed of data products coming out. To answer your question, how early we are or is this even possible? My prediction is that in 2023, we will start seeing more of data products. And then it'll take maybe two to three years for data products to become mainstream. But it's starting this year. >> A subprime mortgages were a data product, definitely were humans involved. All right, let's talk about some of the supercloud, multi-cloud players and what their future looks like. You can kind of pick your favorites. VMware, Snowflake, Databricks, Red Hat, Cisco, Dell, HP, Hashi, IBM, CloudFlare. There's many others. cohesive rubric. Keith, I wanted to start with CloudFlare because they actually use the term supercloud. and just simplifying what they said. They look at it as taking serverless to the max. You write your code and then you can deploy it in seconds worldwide, of course, across the CloudFlare infrastructure. You don't have to spin up containers, you don't go to provision instances. CloudFlare worries about all that infrastructure. What are your thoughts on CloudFlare this approach and their chances to disrupt the current cloud landscape? >> As Larry Ellison said famously once before, the network is the computer, right? I thought that was Scott McNeley. >> It wasn't Scott McNeley. I knew it was on Oracle Align. >> Oracle owns that now, owns that line. >> By purpose or acquisition. >> They should have just called it cloud. >> Yeah, they should have just called it cloud. >> Easier. >> Get ahead. >> But if you think about the CloudFlare capability, CloudFlare in its own right is becoming a decent sized cloud provider. If you have compute out at the edge, when we talk about edge in the sense of CloudFlare and points of presence, literally across the globe, you have all of this excess computer, what do you do with it? First offering, let's disrupt data in the cloud. We can't start the conversation talking about data. When they say we're going to give you object-oriented or object storage in the cloud without egress charges, that's disruptive. That we can start to think about supercloud capability of having compute EC2 run in AWS, pushing and pulling data from CloudFlare. And now, I've disrupted this roach motel data structure, and that I'm freely giving away bandwidth, basically. Well, the next layer is not that much more difficult. And I think part of CloudFlare's serverless approach or supercloud approaches so that they don't have to commit to a certain type of compute. It is advantageous. It is a feature for me to be able to go to EC2 and pick a memory heavy model, or a compute heavy model, or a network heavy model, CloudFlare is taken away those knobs. and I'm just giving code and allowing that to run. CloudFlare has a massive network. If I can put the code closest using the CloudFlare workers, if I can put that code closest to where the data is at or residing, super compelling observation. The question is, does it scale? I don't get the 238 services. While Server List is great, I have to know what I'm going to build. I don't have a Cognito, or RDS, or all these other services that make AWS, GCP, and Azure appealing from a builder's perspective. So it is a very interesting nascent start. It's great because now they can hide compute. If they don't have the capacity, they can outsource that maybe at a cost to one of the other cloud providers, but kind of hiding the compute behind the surplus architecture is a really unique approach. >> Yeah. And they're dipping their toe in the water. And they've announced an object store and a database platform and more to come. We got to wrap. So I wonder, Sanjeev and Maribel, if you could maybe pick some of your favorites from a competitive standpoint. Sanjeev, I felt like just watching Snowflake, I said, okay, in my opinion, they had the right strategy, which was to run on all the clouds, and then try to create that abstraction layer and data sharing across clouds. Even though, let's face it, most of it might be happening across regions if it's happening, but certainly outside of an individual account. But I felt like just observing them that anybody who's traditional on-prem player moving into the clouds or anybody who's a cloud native, it just makes total sense to write to the various clouds. And to the extent that you can simplify that for users, it seems to be a logical strategy. Maybe as I said before, what multi-cloud should have been. But are there companies that you're watching that you think are ahead in the game , or ones that you think are a good model for the future? >> Yes, Snowflake, definitely. In fact, one of the things we have not touched upon very much, and Keith mentioned a little bit, was data sovereignty. Data residency rules can require that certain data should be written into certain region of a certain cloud. And if my cloud provider can abstract that or my database provider, then that's perfect for me. So right now, I see Snowflake is way ahead of this pack. I would not put MongoDB too far behind. They don't really talk about this thing. They are in a different space, but now they have a lakehouse, and they've got all of these other SQL access and new capabilities that they're announcing. So I think they would be quite good with that. Oracle is always a dark forest. Oracle seems to have revived its Cloud Mojo to some extent. And it's doing some interesting stuff. Databricks is the other one. I have not seen Databricks. They've been very focused on lakehouse, unity, data catalog, and some of those pieces. But they would be the obvious challenger. And if they come into this space of supercloud, then they may bring some open source technologies that others can rely on like Delta Lake as a table format. >> Yeah. One of these infrastructure players, Dell, HPE, Cisco, even IBM. I mean, I would be making my infrastructure as programmable and cloud friendly as possible. That seems like table stakes. But Maribel, any companies that stand out to you that we should be paying attention to? >> Well, we already mentioned a bunch of them, so maybe I'll go a slightly different route. I'm watching two companies pretty closely to see what kind of traction they get in their established companies. One we already talked about, which is VMware. And the thing that's interesting about VMware is they're everywhere. And they also have the benefit of having a foot in both camps. If you want to do it the old way, the way you've always done it with VMware, they got all that going on. If you want to try to do a more cross-cloud, multi-cloud native style thing, they're really trying to build tools for that. So I think they have really good access to buyers. And that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in them to see how they progress. The other thing, I think, could be a sleeping horse oddly enough is Google Cloud. They've spent a lot of work and time on Anthos. They really need to create a certain set of differentiators. Well, it's not necessarily in their best interest to be the best multi-cloud player. If they decide that they want to differentiate on a different layer of the stack, let's say they want to be like the person that is really transformative, they talk about transformation cloud with analytics workloads, then maybe they do spend a good deal of time trying to help people abstract all of the other underlying infrastructure and make sure that they get the sexiest, most meaningful workloads into their cloud. So those are two people that you might not have expected me to go with, but I think it's interesting to see not just on the things that might be considered, either startups or more established independent companies, but how some of the traditional providers are trying to reinvent themselves as well. >> I'm glad you brought that up because if you think about what Google's done with Kubernetes. I mean, would Google even be relevant in the cloud without Kubernetes? I could argue both sides of that. But it was quite a gift to the industry. And there's a motivation there to do something unique and different from maybe the other cloud providers. And I'd throw in Red Hat as well. They're obviously a key player and Kubernetes. And Hashi Corp seems to be becoming the standard for application deployment, and terraform, or cross-clouds, and there are many, many others. I know we're leaving lots out, but we're out of time. Folks, I got to thank you so much for your insights and your participation in Supercloud2. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and the entire Cube community. Keep it right there for more content from Supercloud2.

>> From the cube studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the cubes. Special presentation on the future of cloud. Three years ago, Alan Nance said to me that in order to really take advantage of cloud and drive billions of dollars of value, you have to change the operating model. I've never forgotten that statement and have explored it from many angles over the last three years. In fact it was one of the motivations for me actually running this program for our audience. Of course with me is Alan Nance. He is a change agent. He's led transformations at large organizations, including ING bank, Royal Phillips, Barclay's bank, and many others. He's also a co-founder of CitrusCollab. Alan, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the program. >> Thanks for having me again, Dave. >> All right, so when we were preparing for this interview, you shared with me the following, you said enterprise IT, often hasn't really tapped the true powers that are available to them to make real connections, to take advantage of that opportunity, connections to the business that is. What do you mean by that? >> Well I think we we've been saying for quite a long time that enterprise IT is certainly a big part of our past in technology. But just how much is it going to be in the future? And enterprise IT has had a difficult time under the cost pressures of being a centralized organization with large, expensive, large topics. While at the same time we see obviously the digital operations for growing oftentimes in separate reporting structures and closest to the business. And what I'm thinking right now is enterprise IT, if it has made this transition to a cloud operating models, whether they are proprietary or whether they are public cloud, there's a huge opportunity for enterprise IT to connect the dots in a way that no other part of the organization can do that. And when they connect those dots, working closely with the business, they unleash a huge amount of value that is beyond things like efficiency or things like just providing cloud computing to be flexible. It has to be much more about value generation. And I think that a lot of leaders of enterprise IT have not really grasped that. And I think that's the opportunity sitting right in front of them right now. >> You know what I've seen lately? I wonder if you could comment, is obviously we always talk about the stove pipes, but you've seen the CIO, the chief data officer that you just mentioned, the chief digital officer, the chief information security officer, they've largely been in their own silos of definitely seeing a move to bring those together. I'm seeing a lot of CDOs and CIO roles come together. And even the chief information or the head of security reporting up into that, where there seems to be as you're sort of suggesting just a lot more visibility across the entire organization. Is it an organizational issue? Is it a mindset? Go on if you could comment. >> Well I would say it's two or three different things. Certainly it's an organizational issue, but I think it starts off with a cultural issue. And I think what you're seeing, and if you look at the more progressive companies that you see, I think you are also seeing a new emergence of the enlightened technology leader. So with all respect to me and my generation our tenure as the owners of the large enterprise IT is coming to an end. And we grew up trying to master the complexity of the silos as you so deftly pointed out. Out we were battling this soaring technology, trying to get it under control, trying to get the costs down, trying to reduce CapEx. And a lot of that was focused on the partnerships that we had with technology suppliers. And so that mindset of being engineers struggling for control, having your most important part of being a technology company itself, I've got now, I think is giving way, giving way to a new generation of technology leaders who haven't grown up with that culture. And oftentimes what I see is that the new enlightened CIOs are female and they are coming into the role outside of the regular promotion chain, so they're coming to these roles through finance, HR, marketing, and they're bringing a different focus. And the focus is much more about how do we work together to create an amazing experience for our employees and for our customers and an experience that drives value. So I think there's a reset in the culture. And clearly when you start talking about creating a value chain to improve experience, you're also talking about bringing people together from different multidisciplinary backgrounds to make that happen. >> Well that's kind of, it makes me think about Amazon's mantra of working backwards, start with the experience. And then a lot of CIOs that I know would love to be more involved in the business, but they're just so busy trying to keep the lights on. Like you said, trying to manage vendors and in the like. I've had a discussion the other day with an individual, we were talking about how, you got to shift from a product mindset to a platform mindset, but you've said that the platform thinking you're always ahead of the game. Platform thinking it needs to make way for ecosystem thinking. Unless you're into that, it'd be giant scale business like Amazon or Spotify you said, you're going to be in a niche market if you really don't tap that ecosystem again . If you could explain what you mean by that? >> Well I think right now, if this movement to experience is fundamental. Right? So Joe Pine and Jim Gilmore wrote about the experience economy as far back in 1990, but the things that they predicted then are here now. And so what we're now seeing is that consumers have choice. Employees have choice. I think the pandemic has accelerated that. And so what happens when you put an enterprise under that type of external pressure, is that it fragments. And if it can fragment in two ways. It can fragment dysfunctionally so that every silo tries to go into a defensive mode, protective mode. That's obviously the wrong way to go. But the fragmentation that's exciting is when it fragments into ecosystems that are actually working together to solve and experience problem. And those are not platforms they're too big. When I was at Phillips, I was very enthusiastic about working on this connected healthcare platform. But I think what I started to realize was it takes too much time. It requires too much investment and you are bringing people who tune you based on your capability, whereas what the market needs is much more agile than that. So if we look in healthcare, for instance and you want to connect patients at home, with patients, with the doctors in the hospital. In the old model when you said, I'm going to build a platform for this, I'm going to have doctors with a certain competence, so they're going to be connecting into this. And so are the patients in some way. And so are the insurers. I think what you're going to see now is different. We're going to say let's get together a small team that understands its competence. So for instance, let's get an insurance provider, let's get a healthcare operator, let's get a healthcare tech company and let's pull their data in a way that helps us to create solutions now that can roll out in 30, 60 or 90 days. And the thing that makes that possible is the move to the public cloud. Because now there are so many specialized suppliers, specialized skillsets available that you can connect to through Amazon, through Google, through Azure, that these things that we used to think were very, very difficult, are now much easier. I don't want to minimize the effort, but these things are on the table right now to read value. >> So you're also technologist. And I want to ask you and everybody always says, technology is easy part of the people and the process. We can all agree on that. However sometimes technology can be a blocker. And the example that you just mentioned, I have a couple of takeaways from that. First of all the platform thinking is somewhat, sounds like it's more command and control and you're advocating for let's get the ecosystem who are closest to the problem to solve those problems. However they decide and they'll leverage the cloud. So my question is from a technology standpoint. Does that ecosystem have to be in the same cloud, with the state of today's technology? can it be across clouds? Can be there pieces on prem? What's your thinking on that? >> I think exactly the opposite. It cannot be monolithic and centralized. It's just not practical because that would cause you too much time on interoperability. And who owns what. You see the power behind experience is data. And so the most important technical part of this is dealing with data liquidity. So the data that, for instance somebody like Kaiser has or the Harvard Mental Healthcare have or the Phillips have, that's not going to be put into a central place for the ecosystem mobilization. There will be subsets of that data flowing between those parties. So the technical, the hardware. Is how do we manage data liquidity? How do we manage the security around data liquidity? And how do we also understand that what we're building is going to be ever changing and maybe temporary, because an idea may not work. And so you've got this idea that the timeliness is very very important. The duration is very uncertain. The mojo energy for this is data liquidity, data transfer, data sharing. But the vehicle is the combination of public cloud, in my mind. >> Somebody said to me, hey that data's like water. It'll go where it wants to go, where it needs to go and you can't try to control it. It's let it go. Now of course many organizations, particularly large incumbent organizations they have many many data pipelines. They have many processes, many roles, and they're struggling to actually kind of inject automation into those pipelines. Maybe that's machine intelligence really do more data sharing across that pipeline and ultimately compress the end and cycle time to go from raw data to insights that are actionable. What are you seeing there? And what's your advice? >> Well I think you make some really good points, but what I hear also a little bit in your observation is you're still observing enterprises. And the focus of the enterprise has been on optimizing the processes within the boundaries of its own system. That's why we have SAP and this why we have Salesforce. And to some degree even service now. It's all been about optimizing how we move data, how we create production services. And that's not the game now. That's not an important game. The important game right now is how do I connect to my employees? How do I connect to my customers in a way that provides them a memorable experience? And the realization is, I'm assuming it's already manufacturing for some years. I can't be all things to all people. So I have to understand this is where the first part of data comes in. I have to understand. Who this person is that I am trying to target? Who is the person that needs this memorable experience? And what is that memorable experience going to look like? And I'm going to need my data, but I'm also going to need the data of other actors in that ecosystem. And then I'm going to have to build that ecosystem really quickly to take advantage of the system. So this throws a monkey rage in traditional ideas of standardization. It throws a monkey rage in the idea that enterprise IT is about efficiency. If I may, I just want to come back to the AI because I think we're looking in the wrong places. Things like AI. And let me give you an example today, there are 2.2 million people working in call centers around the world. If we imagine that they work in three shifts, that means that anyone time there are 700,000 people on the phone to a customer, and that customer is calling that company because they're vested, they're calling them with advice. They're calling them with a question they're calling them with a complaint. It is the most important source of valuable data that any company has. And yet, what have we done with that? What we've done with that is we've attacked it with efficiency. So instead of saying, these are the most valuable sources of information, let's use AI to tag the sentiment in the recordings that we make with our most valuable stakeholders. And let's analyze them for trends, ideas things that needs to change. We don't do that. What we do is we're going to give every cool agent two minutes to get them off the phone. For God's sake, don't answer many important, difficult questions. Don't spend money talking to the customer, try to make them happy. So they get a score and say, they hire you at the end of the call, and then you're done. So where the AI automation needs to come in is not in improving your efficiency, but in mining value. And the real opportunity with AI is that Joe Pine says this. "If you are able to understand the customer, rather than interpret them, that is so valuable to the customer, that they will pay money for that". And I think that's where the whole focus needs to be in this new team in enterprise IT, and they're still in the business. >> That's a great observation. I think we can all relate to that in your call center example, or you've been a restaurant, and you're trying to turn the tables fast and get out of there. And it's the last time you ever go to that restaurant. And you're taking that notion of systems thinking and broadening it to ecosystems thinking. And you've said, ecosystems have a better chance of success when they're used to stage and experience for whether it's the employee for the brand. And of course the customer and the partners. >> That's it that's exactly it. So every technology leader should be asking themselves what contribution can I and my organization make to this movement, because the business understands the problem. They don't understand how to solve it, and we've chosen a different dialogue. So we've been talking a lot about what cloud can do and the functionality that cloud has and the potential that cloud has. And those are all good things, but it really comes together. Now when we work together and we as the technology group brings in the know how we know how to connect quickly through the public cloud, we know how to do that in a secure way. We know how to manage data liquidity at scale, and we can stand these things up through our new learning of agile and DevOps. We can stand these ecosystems up fairly quickly. Now there's still a whole bunch of culture between different businesses that have to work together. The idea that I have to protect my data rather than serve the customer. But once you get past that, there's a whole new conversation enterprise IT can have, that I think gives them a new lease of life, new value. And I just think it's a really really exciting time. >> (inaudible) The intersection of a lot of different things. You talk about cloud as an enabler for sure. And that's great. We can talk about that, but you've got this. What you were referring to before is maybe you're in a niche market, but you have your marketplace. And like you're saying, you can actually use that through an ecosystem to really leave a much, much broader available market. And then vector that into the experience economy. We talk about subscriptions, the API economy, that really is new thinking. >> It is and I think what you're seeing here it's not radical in as much as all of these ideas have been around. Some of them have been around since the nineties, but what's radical is the way in which we can now mix and match these technologies to make this happen. That's growing so quickly. And I would argue to you and I've argued this before. Scale, scale as a concept within an organization is dead. It doesn't give you enough value. It gives you enough efficiency and it gives you a cloud. And it doesn't give you the opportunity to target the niche experiences that you need to do. So if we start to think of an organization as a combination of known and unknown potential ecosystems, you start to build a different operating model, a different architectural idea. You start to look outside more than you start to look inside. Which is why the cultural change that we were talking about just now goes hand in hand with this because people have to be comfortable thinking in ecosystems that may not yet exist and partnering with people where they bring to the table. There 20, 30 years of experience in a new and different way. >> So let me make sure I understand that. So you basically, if I understand it, you're saying that if your sort of end goal is scale and efficiency at scale you're going to have a vanilla solution for your customers in your ecosystem. Whereas if you will allow this outside in thinking to come in, you're going to be able to actually customize those experience, experiences and get the value of scale and efficiency. >> Right, so I mean Rory Sutherland, who is a big thinker in the marketing world has always said, "ultimately scale standardization and best practice lead to mediocrity". Because you are not focused on the most important thing for your employee or your brand. You're focused on the efficiency factors and they create very little value. In fact we know that they subvert value. So yes we need to have a very big mindset change. >> Yeah you're a top line thinker Alan and always at the forefront. I really appreciate you coming on to the cube and participate in this program. Give us a last word. So if you're a change agent, I'm an organization and I want to inject this type of change. Where do I start? >> Well I think it starts by identifying. Are we going to work on the employee experience? Do we feel that we have a model where the employees that are on stage with customers are so important that the focus has to be employees. We go down that route and then we look at what's happened to the pandemic. What type of experiences are we going to bring to those employees around their ability to have flow in their work, to get return on energy, to excite the customers? Let's do that. Let's figure out what experience are we driving now? And what does that experience need to be? If we're the customer side. As I said let's look at all the sources of information that we already have. I know companies that spend hundreds of millions a year trying to figure out what consumers want. And yet if we look in their call sentences, you will call up and they will say to you, your call may be recorded for quality purposes and training. And it's not true, less than 10% of those calls are ever listened to. And if they listened to, it's compliance, that's driving that, not the burning desire to better understand the consumer. So if we change that, then we shall get to. What can we change? What is the experience we are now able to stage with all we know and with all we can do. And let's start there, let's start with, what is the experience you want to stage? What's the experience landscape look like now? And who do we bring together to make that happen? >> Alan fantastic. Having you back in the cube, it's always a pleasure and thanks so much for participating. >> Thank you, Dave. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. >> And thank you everybody. This is Dave Vellante the cube on cloud. We'll be right back right after this short break, stay with us. (soft music)

>> lie from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage here in San Francisco, California, for VM World 2019. I'm Jeff Davis Davis, our 10th year, 10 years covering the M world. Quite a run. Got a great stories. More stories coming, Emma days. A lot of organic growth. A lot of typos in the startup scene. Our next two guests Mike Adams, CIA Director bm wear and Ziv Kalman. Oh, vich product line manager here. Welcome to the Cube. Great to see you. Yes, Curtsy to you guys. Got a lot of activity happening around bit fusion. A lot of news to share. Exciting. I mean, in the M. And a story has been high on VM. Where we talking back? Elsie earlier. Continue to fill in on the strategy. >> Yeah, absolutely. Give us the update. Yeah, I think the key thing for us is we really want to become a key player in the A. I am l space and say that those workloads should come on visa. And with this acquisition we think, provides a great framework for a lot of the hardware accelerator devices. The best of you known of those his GP use. But we think there's four coming market with PG A's and also custom a six. So we're super excited about that. >> For the folks that don't know much about the acquisition, what was the motivation? What was the company's core product? What was the interest? Yeah, the >> company had a product called Flex Direct, and that particular product was really focused on taking, ah, similar concept that a lot of V m writes No, which was, Hey, we knew that computes space. We were trying to take these isolated islands and pull them together. Same type of thing. Here you had these expensive devices that people were buying and they were isolated. And now if we could take a single server, it's got a bunch of GP use on it. Why don't we share it? You see all these papers that come out around machine learning at the very end. It says she's I'm amazed that thes GP user so underutilized even when we're actually using them. It's kind of like buying a car and then using the radio only right? Doesn't. It just doesn't make sense. I >> got this trend of alternative processors just sort of exploding all over the place. I mean, obviously in video, sort of people know what's going on there, but but you've got arm. Now you've got the edge coming in, you know, Intel. Still dominant in the server space. But even even storage devices today use different type, not in the not Intel processors in there. It's a combination of our mo are Sometimes you know, G. P uses you say F g a Z, even though they're sort of a narrow use case. You're seeing a six make a comeback. So you got all this additional processing power, you know, going. So that's a tailwind. Absolutely, guys, and it's sort of the intersection of those to maybe talk about some of the trends you see in that regard and how you're taking advantage of them. >> Yeah, it reminds me of many moons ago when we had new chips that were coming out. We said, Jesus, hardware, flurry here, right? And now we're in a really similar spot. Ziv and I see a lot of different types of devices and acceleration devices, whether it's computer network or storage. And in this particular case, right, we just see a hotbed of all these customers that air seeing the same problem, right? And we've got great partnerships with Intel you mentioned in video and and many others. And we just want to really leverage those for these devices because you look at V sphere and say, OK, your traditional workloads. We've done those very, very well. But as we get into containers, KUBERNETES, machine Learning and I, we want these newer cloud native and newer workloads to come our way. And taking advantage of these new capabilities really helps accelerate that in a big way. >> Could you >> explain Maur on the the sphere impact? Because, you know, first of all, of'em, where community you get the feedback right away on Twitter and a lot of things. But sometimes you gotta dig in and find out what people are thinking and where there might. I think that could be future up opportunities or because it meets skepticism. Well, the the sphere native having a eye on the sphere, that's just mind blowing to me. But I mean, I can see I can see a data processor kind of vibe going on here where data needs to be processed. That seems to be a trend. What is it going on with the sphere with this? Is there what's the what's to customers? No. >> Well, I think the first thing to clarify here is that, you know, some often there is this question. Why would Iran m Ellery I work? Look specifically envy. Sphere is a platform. But then customers do run Emily and workers and public clouds. And those layers are not that different than the spirits virtualization layer, and they're running it in virtual machines. So the whole idea would be fusion specifically, is it? Actually, we can make it even more efficient to run these workloads on top of the sphere because the underlying infrastructure that you two actually, you have to accelerate these workloads there. Today they are mostly GP use, obviously, but in the futures, Michael so mentioned you a six are coming in and effigies are coming in. We are going to make those as well. That's the plan using the B fusion framework. Be more efficient to use. A lot >> of people are skeptical around running machine learning on these are not skeptical because, I mean, it's great for any time you have the opportunity to automate something or used software to make something go away. That's not the difference. You're undifferentiated, so it makes sense. But I just can't figure out where, specifically, within these fears of being targeted to use >> where envy sphere as in, Well, >> if I'm operating the sphere on top operator, I got Debs kicking around the corner. I got a cloud Mom reclaiming. Where's this fit in? Where >> this fits into essentially any place for a visa is running. It doesn't matter if it would run on via MacLeod and for any other for cloud partnerships or on the the edge of our Vesey runs. This is a core capability of the sphere, so it doesn't matter. You know where physically or infrastructure is, we would be able to expose this technology. The idea is also that you mentioned the trends in the A six as they're coming into the enterprise. There's an architectural changes also coming in, and in the server perspective, it's just it's the servers are actually getting more dense there, in there, in there in the accelerator infrastructure that they have in them. So you're seeing four to a GP using a single server. Those are very powerful machines. You can just move oil, represent a single machine again. That brings us back to be fusion and descend. The segregated model affects territory used, which is very similar by the way to centralize stories use. >> You guys are on something really big here. I think that hardware assists off load anything. Hardware system, harbor off load is gonna be a more of a bigger trend. And we saw it happen big time and hyper converge just for storage and everything. But I think as you want to stack where kubernetes gonna flourish? Yeah. I mean, imagine all the service is that he turned on Turned off. I mean, that's not I mean, men even know when it gets turned on or off. >> Absolutely offload for awhile with things like a raise, right, trying to push processing off to a bigger ray that you've got there. And then one other thing you said that I think was really important is the audience, right? If you look at a i n m l, we have traditionally haven't talked to the data, scientists of the machine learning folks. And we need to get to the I t. Folks that air supporting those workloads saying similar to some other workloads that were new and saying these were gonna come your way. And so we need to be prepared and you need to be able to leverage. So >> what's the What's the pitch to those folks? What's that? What's what you guys saying to them? Because it is a benefit for Debs and Dev Ops is to have an ops right. You got the ops down. Okay, see that and this change happening. But a dev, What's the pitch? But how do you get their attention? What's the value proposition? >> The the Actually, that's the beauty of it. It's exactly the same bottle proposition that the sphere in Vienna, where the Vienna state provides the developers and the only thing is that now we are letting the the office people to actually provide this doing this infrastructure as well in the same efficient manner. So it's your transformation. Basically, it's giving the exact same value proposition. >> Talk about the multi cloud tie in here. We've heard a lot about multi cloud and I think multi cloud in part anyway, is being able to run any application and workload anywhere. And one of things about your technology is the ability to not have to rewrite the application to take advantage of acceleration. Does it fit into multi cloud? And if so, how? >> Yeah, when we made the bet Fusion acquisition, if you look at their story, they had the any any any story as well, just like we do. And so, you know, we made announcement this week within video and eight of us and VM, where it's definitely possible of the technology that we have to extend that even further. And so, you know, the only thing I know with users going forward is they're gonna have more than one cloud, and so we just need to prepare for that and make sure that it works. And it works well across the board and the common layer. When you look at our multi cloud strategy is vey sphere is going to be at each of those layers. So if it's ties in disease here, it should be pretty easy to make it work in each of those environments. >> What was that What was the announcement you made you share? The big >> one was being able to use in video in the context of cloud in AWS. So's GPU capabilities and bring it to the service as we do on Prem. And so that was a big piece. And then we also obviously, in making that announcement talking about Hey, you know, this is a critical area for us because not only are we doing this, but we're also saying that your bit fusion will help enhance this because we think in video and bit fusion work very well together as well. >> And is that a product of service? Ah, go to market initiative. >> In the case of the coordinated us, it would be offered as part of the service. So when you can consume the compute, you know you want a GPU, it'll be there for you to help run that workload in the cloud. >> And that's available. When >> that's an nvidia in AWS kind of question. When they are making that infrastructure available, it's essentially going to be a nun. In another instance, type that the ember cloud in AWS will offer okay, I >> mean, it's a tech preview. >> What if some of the things that people should know about because again, in the pattern I'm seeing here of'em world is as in love to stack with kubernetes being that abstraction layer that guessing eyes promoting heavily on rightfully so. We're big fans communes with that for the beginning is that you're gonna have this this purpose built, um, native capability so that when you guys got this native vibe going on native to hype the sphere native TSX native, what does that actually mean? Native like Cooper, naked native on I. But what does it native mean? Explain to the audience what that actually means. >> I'll start up. Sure. You could >> elaborate 30 minutes if you want. But what is that >> true native native? The idea >> for us was used kubernetes really two ways. You know, most of the time when we were talking about Cooper Naser Containers, it's running that on top of these Fair right? What happens if you could take the DNA of that and put it actually inside of east here? Right, so not only you could run these clusters and native pods, but you could also leverage some of the value and one of the things that Cubans does really well is it handles workloads really well. So if we take an example where we have 145 e ems and they make up your app, right, normally you'd have to go to each one of those and figure out OK, let's make some changes in tweaks. And now what I can do is I can treat all of those is one workload and I can move them. I could do really interesting things with that. And that's the power one of the powers that you have with Kubernetes. >> And that's where the differentiation. Then you don't think that there's a >> Yeah, exactly. I mean you are essentially getting There are a lot of benefits our customers, our values value that the customer is getting today from V Sphere, generically speaking, and our longtime customers are familiar with the value propositions. And what we are saying is that when you're getting something as a native capability is that essentially ties into all the other capabilities that you already were know very well and you will be able to get those. But with on top on, sometimes on top orbit in conjunction with what >> is that gonna enable? Now let's talk about the enablement. >> So let's go back all the way. If you go all the way back to be fusion, for example, if you enable it is a native technology, then if you're running containers or viens on the sphere natively they can consume to be fusion technology. If you have cool, it is. It can orchestrate natively, the PM's and containers that are using the confusion to collision. Excited. Oh, so this is the whole thing, >> more efficient platform standpoint, >> and it's easier to manage as well, because you don't have to install a bunch of stuff on top of each other because it's needed. It's part of the first. >> A lot of hassle go away that people might >> take it in and you're gonna have to guess tomorrow they're going to go deep into it with >> you. Great, we're excited. So we're hearing a lot, obviously, but kubernetes at this event and and but most of the audience, they're not developers. So how can you use the sort of bit Fusion mojo to attract developers for some of these new workloads, that air come into the marketplace? >> Yeah, I mean it's all about acquiring new audiences in a case of infusions. More the data scientists. In the case of the communities, it's more around the developer. But I think let's use the kubernetes examples as a good one and what we announced with Project Pacific. Basically, the way it looks, the technology looks to them. It'll look like the kubernetes, a p I with a little bit of east for goodness from the operator perspective, the people that we know the 20,000 that are here, it looks to them like the sphere was from kubernetes Goodness. So that's the right mix is you've got to get it. So it looks exactly the smells and feels just like what they're used to. And I think that's a that's a key aspect. And then for the data Scientists with fusion, we really need to say Okay, you know you want to run these workloads, but she's you're paying really a lot of money for these expensive, isolated devices, and you could get more value by kind of grouping them up and making sure that they're used kind of in aggregate, right? >> So there's more leverage on the data science side So if I'm say hiring someone I know I'm or more to work with with >> exactly, essentially, it's it's the same story. They don't need to change their applications, their framework. Their models use the same could interface, which is the GPU interface for for the GPS computer. >> So So let's talk about that. So data scientist, you know, they always complain that most their time is spent wrangling data That's their, you know, bugaboo. And then there's a collaboration between data scientists and developers, which probably doesn't happen enough. What are you seeing in terms of the trends from the data science role? And can you help solve some of those problems? >> Well, what we are about to solve is really access access to infrastructure for them. Easy access to the infrastructure in their software stack. And the way to get there is to make the data engineers that serve these data scientists and the application administrators that surges data scientist to get easy access to the infrastructure Dany to provide the software, and that's where the sphere eventually comes in. So it's not the Celia direct relationship with the end users. It's more enabling the entire organization that actually served these end users and let them use as much infrastructure as your partners. And >> that and that and user organization. The buffer >> guys last question share what the plans are. What's next? What's your goals for the next 6 to 12 months? I'll see. Get the acquisition under your belt. Native in these fear, a lot of other cool things. I mean that I could talk about >> customers and maybe you can talk about product from a customer perspective. You know, we want engage in proof of concepts. So we want to bring them in, let them test out the software. It already works with the beast here, so I'll be running with multiple proof of concepts across the globe. We >> use cases in the U. S. Case or what? >> Yeah, I mean, it's it's pretty simple at the moment. It seems to be most people that are using GP use around ml. We have a great demo down the floor that shows people trying to run inception, three year resident 50 And how can we actually help those v EMs that are running that? So that's gonna be my focus. The next six >> years you want get some use cases come over here, bring him up to Mike. >> And from that perspective, I mean, obviously, we acquired occasion in an early stage. The technology works well. It works well enough to be product eyes. However, Veum, wherein the sphere has very high enterprise software stone standards in terms of security and management and governance. All this capabilities so that's going to be are focused on the next, you know, even almost a year to make sure that we bring it up to a level where we can confidently provide it and sell. It is a product >> you gotta engineering hye bar there absolutely thanks to Russia coming on keeping the update, the end world coverage Breaking it down. 2019. It's the Cuba job for David. Thanks for watching Be back with more after this short break.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live Cube coverage here in San Francisco, California Mosconi North were in the lobby for VM World 2019. I'm John for a day. Volante are 10 years covering VM World's been exciting, Dave, and we've watched all the changes and our next guest is going to illuminate all the benefits at the top of the stack, as I call the end user experience. Shaker Ire, Who's the V S v. P. And general manager End User Computing within VM, where what that means is, he takes care of all the stuff that we're virtualization creates those efficiencies. I think what Palmer's just called end user computing still, but they still have that name back then, if I remember correctly, >> yeah, you >> know the name is stuck because it's ah, it's sort of income, passes all the technologies and uses use right as digital interface is. So that's why it's and use the computing. It's any digital interface that anybody at work uses. Now, the interesting thing is people don't work in an office anymore, and the interface is no longer just a laptop. >> Well, I want to get into some stupid questions around the work environment cause whether you working at a cafe or at home is all kinds of security issues. Also, user experiences. Collaboration software. But let's first get the news out of the way. Digital work, Space news What's the What's going on? The show? What you guys announcing? Yeah, so >> before we get to >> the news that we met me, frame it up a little bit right? Because when you think about organizations today, especially with the changing demographics, where they're going in terms of new devices, the mobility phenomenon, right, the transformation they're going through in terms of just their own cloud and APS and so on, right it. Every every one of those things effects employees, right. And at the end of the day, you know what organizations want is for the employees to have a great experience all the way, as we call it from higher to retire. Not to do that, you know you need a platform because I can just give you a pretty apt running in the laptop and say, Great, that's That's the end of the employees experience, right? It's fundamentally transforming the own whole environment. That's why it's still retains its term and use the computing. And to do that, you have to hit at least three facets, right? One is, of course, How do you deliver a great experience for the employees where they can get any app, any device, anywhere, any form? Anyway, that's one aspect of it. The second aspect of it is from a nightie standpoint. I've gotta manage all this complexity, right, and it's only growing. It's not shrinking with all the head virginity, so there's a management angle of it, and then the tone angle of it is, you know, security. As you pointed out, right security so important. In fact, what you users want is they don't want any security driven compromises. What is an example of security, even compromise, that I have to go through three passwords because he simply don't trust me? Heck, figure it out. Is what the user's Saito I t especially the millennials. Right. So s So you gotta address that. So the platform that we have workspace one actually addresses all three So we have innovations today and news in all three areas, right? So it's an example. Employ experiences, something we've been driving with enterprises and corporations for at least two years. Now we've upped the ante. We have now introducing a virtual assistant that employees can use either through voice or text to essentially ask questions. Hey, what's how do I get into WiFi? What's my employee directory? Um, you know who I go to first? You know this and that, right? As employed onboard the organization. Those examples of virtual assistant can do it. So we released the virtual assistant. That's a big piece of news in the employ experience. Sadie. Another big piece of news is we are introducing a tech preview of what we call digital employees experience management, which means I t now has a user expedient score that they can look at and say, Hey, is David getting a great expedience? No, it's poor, and I can die right in. I can find out the root cause I can fix the issue, and I could do that automatically. >> KP eyes can come out of that right? Absolutely serviceability. >> Absolutely. And I think you know, I've talked to many Cee Io's and we you know, we drive works based one and they for awhile sort of told me, Hey, this is all good. But >> I don't know how I'm doing all my >> doing with respect to, you know, your best best customer. Um, I ahead and behind and far behind. So this really helps them. >> Here. Let me ask the questions. That's a good point I want because this gets down to the heart of the issue. What is the top requests that you're getting from your customers or top two or three features? That pattern that continued comes back from your customer base when it comes to end user computing. These the experience, >> it spends all three things, right? So the first thing is, they're saying, Listen, I want to be able to deliver a great employee experience some, you know, help me do that. Helping measure and make sure I know what journey, Eman That's one right. Second is I've got to set virginity. I've got this complexity of God. You know, I always phones. I've got android tablets. I've got a you know, Dell laptop. I've got a Mac book. I've got you know a rugged device. I've got some work space I ot devices like printers and ex sector X factor. I've got this head virginity. Just help me manage this complexity in a sort of a unified, seamless, uniform way. Right? And third is help me secure my enterprise. So there's a whole model emerging called zero Trust. Where in the old world, what you do is you just build a huge wall around the enterprise, right? A pedometer, and say I'm inside the wall. I need to be domain joined on that inside the fire world. Therefore, I'm good. I mean, you got to throw that out of the window anymore. >> Doesn't exist in your model, because if a millennial or workaround working at home, that means every single i p device on my network potentially a compromise point. >> Correct. So you have You have to start with that device never ought to be trusted. And every network is hostile, right? If you start out for that reminds, then you build trust over time, right? And how do you build trust? You first say you leverage user identity, You say Okay, Davis who he is, right? And so that becomes an identity. You say this device is trusted or partially trusted. So one of the things we're announcing its part of innovations today is what we call workspace to risk analytic, which means we're able to provide a risk or write for the device. And we can say, Hey, this device is a risk on a score of 1 to 10 of eight, which means I can mostly trust it. Maybe you don't trust the sensitive apse. So therefore, a block access to the most sensitive apse, right? So use a combination of different things. They use things like NSX micro segmentation to your point about how we build on the Via Mary Stack. The carbon black acquisition is phenomenal because it gives us that intelligence. So collectively, we're able to sort of implement the zero trust model. Right. So >> those are the >> three main topics, right? Is employed expedience, unified management and zero trust security are really, really >> important. I want to ask you about your tenure, gm, where coincided with the air watch expedition. And prior to that event theme, we're struggled in this space. Ana Citrix dominated your pre Gerald. You know, your former company kind of fumbling around in air watch now. Air watch, if I recall correctly from wrong was not like the number one player. Just like people are saying carbon blacks, not the number one player. Absolutely. And then you get into the VM where flywheel effect or Sanjay Putin came in and it was great leader. But I wonder if you could sort of describe the ascendancy of the end user computing business at at VM wear. And I'm curious you mentioned carbon black and you kind of replicate that with our end point cloud security, peace. There's obviously a security use case. You clearly just described it, but take us back to >> great, great, great question. So actually, I joined right when literally, maybe a month before the air watch acquisition. Right then. So a Sandy and I and the rest of the team sort of worked this. We said, Hey, listen, a watch is a phenomenal sort of mobile management and security player. We had a very good product and horizon VD I, but it was a little bit isolated, and there were others, like, say, tricks that are sort of motor head in that space. So what? The first thing we did is we have three assets. Actually, the third I said what we had a Fed rated identity asset that we had purchase, but not leverage. So we said he know what the identity really has to get coupled with. You know, the death star pulled the mobile world, so we actually took these three piece parts and started integrating it as he started integrating it. We said, You know, this actually forms a very interesting work space, and we said It's a digital work space to be sort of coined that term and started to really tight together. The experience is a user would have, whether they were in a mobile device, a physical desktop or a virtual desktop right and made that seamless. So that's when the work's based one app was born and this was probably around the 2015 time frame. So we started releasing it, and then we started to stitching together basically all the back and integrations, right, So out >> of >> this out of that was born a workspace. And so, in 2016 with the momentum of the workspace, desktop business came back because now it had it been on. We've done a lot of work on the desktop businesses. Well, we made it very competitive with Citrix. We bought volumes. We integrated that we made it actually the best media solution. The markets, with a tremendous traction by itself in the horizon space and then integrating it works with people, said You know what, I need to get that workspace. And why am I dealing with Citrix this horizon solution within workspace in a more than salts my problem. In fact, it's better in certain areas. So that sort of got momentum going around that we really built that workspace momentum. And that was, I would say, till about 2016 or so. And then we saw these three things coming up. One is Hey, employees, experience matters. We really started pouring effort into the employees experience from, you know, day one day two and beyond. And then recently, including this show, we added divided sort of Day zero and then the off boarding pieces. Well, so employees experience became sort of the lightning rod for why somebody would adopt this workspace one platform which were built by then, right, and then we added on this ability to do modern management, especially on Windows and Mac, which was really starting to take off last year completely. Darden rounded out that portfolio and handsome capability, and then we added Now zero trust model, which is which is now sort of bolstered by the acquisition of carbon black. So you can see this a set off cascading talk, full moves. But we did it in a way where, you know, it was really truly integrated. So when as we come out with carbon black now, one of the most interesting things is right when carbon black comes into the fold, we've already done the integration. We're actually going to show it on my keynote right after this, right? We're actually showing the integration between workspace one intelligence and carbon backs You There you have it. You already have an asset that's completely integrated. >> So the risk or is interesting to me as well, so as endpoint security, because much, much more importantly, no fishing is you know, the big way that people get give up credentials. Does >> any of >> this seep into machines and I ot and edge? >> Yeah, and fabulous question. >> Wonder if you could come. >> Absolutely. I think listen, be if you think about risk oars and if >> you think about >> risks at large and devices they've been largely and Windows devices and not to and blame it on Windows, I think they might accept in a fabulous job of sort of progressing windows. But by far it's the most used operating system in the enterprise, right? But Mobile is getting used there. There, you know, it's starting to make a huge starting take a large part of the real estate of the enterprise. So I think we have a unique opportunity now through the data we collect on mobile devices with workspace one using the underlying air watch technology coupled with some of the, um, you know, data that, you know, data analytics tools we have in the carbon black cloud and the way they do sort of threat analysis and, uh, and determine potential attack vectors. We have an opportunity to leverage that intelligence. And that day, the lake and that technology, coupled with the data, we have to really now build a broader sort of threat surface understanding across multiple devices, and eventually that goes into a I ot. Right. So we're actually going to be working with some of the other technologies we have in Wimmer called Paul's Right. Pulse is very interesting because they have the ability to speak multiple device protocols that nobody does. Okay, so we're gonna take advantage of them potentially to sort of be able to start to poke into devices that are attached to the office, but not quite attached to the office. In the sense they're not mainstream devices you and I would use. But indirectly, you may use it, right? So be able to sort of get a much broader view off a visibility of devices. Second is how to manage them through a combination of workspace, one impulse and third, to get the data so that we can feed it into this federated cloud of workspace one intelligence and carbon black to understand the risk. And that way you have this three prom thing, right? I >> wanna ask you a personal question. Pat gal singer was very prolific this week again. Props of in social Media, Mojo doing a selfie on stage with Craig. Job ate up. Yeah, um, doing a little morning thing, telling people how he prepares for his keynote. Yeah. So how do you prepare for your keynote. Do you like, give it for a M and hit the gym and get a job coming up right after this interview? >> I do. I I I'm not fat. That's incredibly disciplined, I think. I think it's been waking up at 4 a.m. for a long time, so I'm not that much of an early bird. But I prepare because, you know, I've been involved in the construction of the keynote. So for me, it's, um, be started work on this, probably about three months ago, because the story came together. It's very natural to me. Just like you asked me the question. You know, tell me about the evolution. It's just a very natural thing because, like telling you >> on relevant story, not just beady eye. Yeah, it's so much more now. >> It's so much more And, you know, and I've lived through this and I participated in most of the decision making, so, you know, when my head of product marketing company said, Hey, what should we do with the keynote? I said, You know, I have the storyline in mind, right? And sit on the same three or four pillars I'm talking to you about, right? How do we tell the story to the audience about what is the platform? Why should they sort of bet on it? How did they sort of deploy it, show them some real world examples and then basically sprinkling all the innovations? That sounds exciting. So? So because of that story lines always being in my head. So it's not that hard. It's just sometimes you just need to sort of a CZ. You're unstable. >> You're preparing Saul, you're part of Yeah, I was handing it to you. Nobody related it. So >> for me, I think it's just sometimes just rehearsing some of the key parts. And then, of course, the visual cues. And they >> want to slam home the big point. They go. You know, I've been looking at your career. You have to check your technologies, but also, you're pretty much been a product leader. Yeah, and your career definite. So I gotta ask you around from the big movements in the innocent. Like your perspective as a participant. This was a product leaders Well, executive in there and done that. Amazon introduced their first conference around cloud security called reinforces. Here we get Cube coverage there. It was interesting because it wasn't like a typical security conference like black hat. Definitely on our say wasn't so much I t is really about cloud security. And so Dave and I were speculating like, this is the first cloud security show. I mean, dedicated to kind of cloud security didn't say cloud security, but essentially, cloud security. >> What is >> your take on the cloud security? Because a >> little bit >> of a different view, little bit architectural change. If you gotta have the on premises, you're gonna have the cloud if things any working together, some things you're doing and security quite frankly, around isolation to, you know, working in in any environment. You're that year in the middle of it all. >> Yeah. >> What is cloud >> security and why I have a conference isn't relevant with your thoughts. >> That's a >> great question. I think you know, you see many of these trends, I think, you know, listen, many of these conferences, they provoke their thought provoking, so it forces you to think right? So when I think about cloud security now, traditionally when you think about cloud security, you would think about technologies like Cass be light cloud access service broker. You would think about encryption to means much more than I do >> all the usual stuff in the back. If he's there, other people are there. But no. >> Yeah, I mean more than my coffee. I think you know you. It's sort of you think of the the the NL unlocked to cloud securities Data center security where you think of the sort of Amazon cloud living in Amazon Data Center. And, you know, how can we protect the, you know, the data and the egress access into those cloud and in the same technology sort of apply, but to your point that you sort of just touched upon its That cloud is not living in isolation. First of all, that Amazon Cloud is connected to a whole bunch of, you know, applications that are still sitting in the data center. Right. So they were not there. Potentially not moving the Oracle database today isn't there moving some workloads to the cloud, right? That's what most most companies are. Hey, guess what? There's all these end points of the connecting the connecting both the data center in the cloud. You're not gonna proxy to the cloud to get to the data center. So there's gateways. So do me. Cloud security can't be an isolated, you know, sort of technology that companies have to sort of think about now is there Is there opportunity to leverage the cloud to manage security better and get visibility in the security environment to do security? Analytics? Absolutely. So I think to me, that's where it's going. Because security, I think, has been proven, is no longer. You know, the one sing single thing. It's just you have to do multiple things. Every time I go talk to CSO's, they tell me they got this technology. I said, Hey, wait a minute. You you have 20. Did you cut down any yet? We've got down a few, but you know, they're just nervous about cutting down too much. Because of that one piece of software >> insurance policy. They're insecure. >> They cut to the added four, >> another tool. Bullshit. I think I think the architecture will get simpler because it's way too complex, but the same time I think you have to. There's no sustenance, cloud security and network security or endpoint security, and >> maybe there's a whole new group emerging within VM where that you could add to your repertoire en Pointe computing group your end user computing. Why don't have endpoint computing? That's >> what you're holding >> is you know is all about what do we need to do for the user? Both as I t and the end user? Okay. And now he now folks like hr and so on, the securities has to be built into it, right? So much like that. I think when you go build our data centers are the public cloud and build this hybrid clouds, security is to be built into that as >> well. We'll shake our thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. A super important area. We're gonna be covering this. This is cloud to point of this end user computing. This is where the edge of the network is. That's where the people are. They are part of the edge. A thin part of the edge of a big part of the edge. You're gonna be in the middle of it will be following the attraction. Thanks for coming on. You So much for having me having played Cuba, Cuba live here in San Francisco on chopper develop the state tune from or we have two sets. Three days of wall to wall coverage, worldly in day one. Stay with us. We gotta have Michael Dell. Pat Nelson. Come on Tomorrow and a lot more guests coming onto. They stay with us. We'll be right back.

>> from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering the M Wear Radio twenty nineteen brought to you by the M where >> welcome to Special Cube conversation here in San Francisco for PM wears radio event there. Top engineers air here for once a year Get together and show in the best stuff road map to get to great guests. Here we got Mike Petrillo is the senior director of Blockchain of'em were here where their journey is, where they come from and gone to today where they are up to and for Team A Gluckman Engineering leader Blockchain engine both with GM Where great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate spending the time My favorite topic block Jane our favorite topic to thanks for joining me. So, Mike, let's start with you. Take a street where you guys are now Because we talked about a year ago. Just getting the putting the team together. You were here last year radio kind of getting some core mo mentum. Where have you guys come from? And where are you now? Yeah, >> it's been quite a journey. You know, over the past five years, we've been doing a lot of research that research culminated in an open source project called Project Concorde that we announced last year. Then we wrapped some commercial offerings around it around really the operational side. How do you operate a blockchain at scale in an enterprise setting we introduced? That is Veum wear Blockchain. It's a very descriptive on the naming, and it really focuses on three core things. Enterprise grade, decentralized trust, not distributed trust but really decentralized trust. So being able to deploy it across multiple different cloud environments as well as on prim, it concentrates on robust Day two operations. How do you operate it at scale in an enterprise setting? How do you deal with stuff like GDP are the right to be forgotten? You know, data sovereignty issues, things like that, which is much different than other block Janes. And then the third thing is really being developer friendly. Last year we were fully Ethereum compatible. We had the Ethereum language sitting on top of our block chain. Since then, we've added support for Djamel from digital asset. So another language and we're adding more and more languages so the developers can develop in the framework that they're used to on the best scaleable. You know, Enterprise Supporter >> brings him Dev Ops Mojo Concepts to blockchain. Absolutely, absolutely somewhat. The demo you guys did you get on stage? I want to get too, because it's a really use case. So again, rnd concept jewel years of research started putting together making some progress on developer. So the solutions that you guys presented, we really take us through that. >> So the ocean plastics demo that we talked about a radio basically solves this problem or, you know, just the plastics polluted, polluting our oceans today. So if you look at the numbers are staggering and the BP that you actually a consume, you know, in fish it's pretty scary. The other thing is, you know, it's been predicted that we'll have mohr plastic in our oceans than fish by twenty fifty. And one of the things Dell is trying to do is clean up the environment, and they're building these reusable trays or packaging material for their Dell laptops. And so this use case was providing them that functionality. And if you look at del they you know, they have a massive supply chain. They've got hundreds and thousands of renders that you know, they use despite systems that don't actually talk to each other, they've got complicated work flows. There's also a lot off corruption in their supply chain. And one of the things that can really solve a lot of those problems is bmr blockchain. And they have an instance running on our service, which runs on VM CNW s and I walked through the devil of just going through an aggregator to getting to a manufacturer and then assembling these laptops with the trays and shipping them off to >> think this was something we covered. A del technology world. I just wanna point out for the folks watching Dell's taking recycled material from the ocean, using it as materials into their laptops as a part of sustainability. Great business. You know, Malcolm for del the supply chain pieces. Interesting. So you guys are using blockchain and track the acquisition of the plastic out of the ocean? >> Yes. To manufacturing and to end >> Yes. In tow? Yes. >> Using of'em were blocking. >> Yes. So who coded >> this up? It was actually >> del Del developers coded it up. So they quoted up. They took two weeks to code it. We had absolutely no support issues that came away, which really talks about these. A fuse of our platform. And, you know, just the applications that running. >> How does someone get involved real quick at the plug for they have someone joins the bm where? Blockchain initiative? Yes, Via more block >> change. That's ah, manage service offering from us. So it's a license, you know, product. If they're interested, they can go to the inn where dot com slash blockchain or emails? The blockchain dash info beyond where dotcom get it signed up on the beta. We have an active beta. We have lots of enterprise customers all around the planet using it today. You know, at scale >> is a free servicers are licensed paid license. >> There will >> be a paid license for it. You know, we're invader right now, so it is free, right? >> I get it. But we're gonna get you in the snow. So it is. It is a licence service. Yeah, It's Amanda's >> service offering on. That's you know, the beauty of it is that you don't have to worry about updating it, you know, keeping the nose live anything like that. We don't see the transactional data. We don't manage the nodes or anything like that. But we deploy and keep him updated. Keeping refresh. >> You know, one of the benefits Ray Farrell's on. Just how about the ape revolution? How I change the world with the Internet and the web that blockchain has that same kind of inflection point impact you mentioned GDP are that implies, Reed. You know, changing the the values on the block chain will dwell in the Ganges is immutable. How do you handle that? Because if it's already immutable on encrypted, how does Tootie pr work? >> Yeah, just doesn't take >> care of you. Why wait? If it's encrypted, no one can see it. >> Yeah, well, you know, block chains, not about encrypting the data, right? There are some block change that do encrypted data. People get confused because they associated the cryptography with it, which links the blocks together. But the data in there is still visible. Right? We're working on privacy solutions to make privacy per transaction. We're working on GDP our issues right now, because that is an issue. When you get into a regulated environment, which there isn't really a non regulated environment these days. You have to worry about these things. You know, Blockchain gives you a mutability and that gives you to trust. But really, Blockchain is about trust. It's about this decentralized trust. And when you think about it in that context, you say, Well, if I trust that I want to be able to delete that data and we reach consensus on it and we still maintain the order, right, the proper order of the bits, which is really what Blockchain is doing, is giving you trust on that order. Bits and I agree, is a consensus to delete one of those pieces out of the order bit, and we can still maintain trust of the order bits. And that's fine. Now I can't get into details on this engineering secret sauce. >> I. So one of the things I want to ask >> you guys just engineers, because I think this is one of the things that I see is that Blockchain is attractive. There's a lot of unknowns that coming down the pike, but we do know one thing. It's a distributed, decentralized kind of concept that people like it. I see a new generation of attracted the blockchain new generation of entrepreneurs, a new generation of young people, engineers who see use cases that others from old school industry might not. So you start to see. I won't say it's the hipster or cutting edge. It's just that it's attracting this kind of new generation developer for engineer. >> Why do you >> think that's the case? Why, and and is that right assumption to look at? Because, you know, when asked his blockchain, certainly state of the art. Yeah, it's not as fast as a database of I wanted to do something. Technically, that's like saying the Internet dial up was bad. But what happened after? So you know, a lot of people making these arguments, But I see it definitely resonating with young people. Yes, look at Facebook who tried looking blockchain and moving their entire a broken system. Teo blocked, Jammed. Try to fix that so you can feel these indicators. What's your thoughts? >> I think >> part of it. And I definitely saw this, you know, last Friday and Saturday, I was eighty three up in New York City, right, and it was very much that hipster crowd, and I was really attached to the crypto currency phase. Cryptocurrency allowed individuals to make investments. You know, the kind of millennials to make investments. They didn't have to go to a e trade or they didn't have to go to some broker. It wasn't caught up in anything. They could, you know, make these bets. And now they can build applications that are directly attached to that currency. They can make up their own currency. They can make up their own value system. You know, you've done some of that with a cube, right? We've launched an application that provides value around the content and token eyes. Is that value? And now it can transfer that value So it opens up the transfer of that value, the trust of that value. And I think, you know, we're in a generation of trust and transparency. That's what's powering the world right now is about trust and transparency, and that's what Blockchain gives you, gives you trust in the system that no one person or no one government owns, and >> I really like that. >> But one thing important is I mean, we just have to demystify this like we just have to say, This is not about Cryptocurrency. That's one thing, and what I am is doing is enterprise blockchain and, you know, and Mike, you've talked about this. You always say, you know, black jeans, not going toe, you know, save the world or, you know it's not going to get rid of poverty. But there's four use cases that we've drilled down to in the supply chain realm, and there's the financial services. And so those are some of the things we're tackling, and I think it's important to like talk about that. And, you know, there's these hipsters every time we go and talk anything with regarding the blockchain, we know a big chunk of people, therefore Cryptocurrency and apparently at consensus in New York, they reduce their audience from I can't remember the numbers. When >> I was >> in the two thousand >> last year were about House kicked out all the crypto >> currency people, and so it's important to make that distinction. >> I think the crypto winter probably hurt them more than taking up, because last year there was a lot of hype there, but I think the bubble was already burst around February last year. But this piece of the good point is something that we've been kind of covering on silicon angle. The Cube is there's infrastructure dynamic. The engineering goodness. I think that certainly is intoxicating to think about Blockchain as an impact. Engineering wise, the token conversation brings up utility, the decentralized crypto currency, the icy, his initial coin offerings. The fraud part or regulated part has caused a lot of problems. So to me, well, I tell people was looking the CEO kind of scams and fraud kind of put a shadow on token economics. And Blockchain is a technology so supply chain no doubt is great. Blockchain. That's where you guys are focused. That's what the enterprise want. Way start getting into tokens. Tokens is a form of measurement. Uh huh. And that's where I think the regulators to do your point earlier is it's caused a lot of problems. So you know, the says if you got a utility token and you're selling >> it, it's Zane exchanges, not kill each other. So that's you're >> called. A lot of it would call those app developers. >> Yeah, but the up developers were still out there, right? And what's nice is these app developers that are on the side building these unique little applications. They still end up working for these larger companies and driving interesting solutions through like we're doing with supply chain like we're doing financial services like what we're doing in Telco and Media. You look at the people that we're dealing with in these companies. They came from building those applications. Heck, some of our own product managers came from building unique things mining rigs and mining companies. So you still have that background. They still have that entrepreneurial, you know, asset. And that's what's changing these cos they're driving change these companies saying, Hey, look, we can use the blockchain for this really unique thing that opens up a brand new business line, you know, for this large corporation, >> you know, I showed you our check preview. We did a quick preview of'Em World last year with our block changing me with a cube coin token, kind of total experimental thing. And it was interesting time because I think you hit the nail on the head. We as entrepreneurial developers. I had this great application we want to do for the Cube community, but we were stalled by the you know, the crypto winter, and you know, we're Apple developers, so there's many use cases of such scenarios like that. That's kind of people are kind of halfway between a Z A B. What's your advice toe to us, or folks like us who were out there who want to get the project back on track? What what what should we and application will do? They should they free focus on the infrastructure peace? What's your advice for the marketplace? >> It's so early, it's It's so early to actually really comment on that. I mean, I would say Just keep at it because you never know. It's I feel like we're so early in the game that though we can solve world hunger, there's so many use cases and applications that come out of it and we just have to keep going. And I think the developer community is what's going to make this successful, you know, and even emerging standards. I think that's one thing is standards across, You know, these block chains like we don't have that right now, and that's something we really need to need to do. And >> I don't know we program in Ethereum. >> So the question is, is that a bad choice is a lot of cognitive dissonance around with the right to. >> That's what I was just going to bring up is that >> you know, you brought up the point of your an app developer and you become stalled, you know, in your project. And we see that exactly same thing happening in the enterprise. We go into account after account where they've chosen some block change solution that's out there and to become what I call a stalled pioneer. They've gone through. They develop that application. But they either hit a scale, ability issue and then, you know, throughput or the number of nodes. They hit an operations thing. You know, operations comes in and says, Whoa, how are you going to do an audit on that thing? What about data Sovereign? What about GPR? What about this one? How are we? My God, you're gonna operate it inside of my environment? You know, what's the security side? So it's really round scale ability. It's around operations. It's around security. Those are three things we hit on over and over and over again with the stalled pioneers. So those of the accounts that we go into and rescue them essentially right, we say we can provide you the scale. We can provide you the through, but we can provide you the operations. For twenty years, the Empire has been taking large, complex distributed systems and making you operate them at scale in an enterprise setting. Where the experts at it So we're doing that would block chain now and allowing your blockchain projects to succeed and >> really find that term. Yep. Yeah. Okay, So, radio. What's the feedback here? Obviously got. Got the demo. What's been some of the peer review Give us the the four one one on peer review here. People liking what's going on? >> I think the demo really talk to people. It was relatable. You're a There was a social good a demo. I think it really impacted them. Um, but some of the cool stuff we're doing is also like in the financial services side. You know, we've got Mohr interesting stuff on the supply chain, so the feedbacks been great. Ah, lot of focuses on VM are blockchain, which is also cool. We didn't quite have that last year. In radio, we had everyone running off in different directions. So now it's via more blockchain And what Mike talked about installed pioneers is you know, we were seeing scalability throughput on numbers. And, you know, we talked about it at the immoral Barcelona A numbers. They're looking really great. And, you know, we're we're optimizing pushing our platform so we could get to, you know, perhaps the papal numbers rave, and someday visa, >> you have high availability. You guys know scale. Yeah. You happy where you are right now? >> Very happy where we >> are right >> now. I mean, we've got great customers. Great feedback, you know, great solution that solving real world problems. You know, engineers like doing two things shipping code and solving stuff that's going to help the world. At least you're of'em where that's our culture, right? And And we're able to do that day in and day out and the entire block chains the cornerstone to that. That's what makes people happy. >> Mike Protein, We following your journey. Great. Teo, check in Great to hear the progress. Congratulations on the great demo reel Use cases in supply chain. We'LL be following you guys and keep in touch. Thanks for coming on the key. Absolutely. Thank you for >> the time >> chauffeur here with Lisa Martin here in San Francisco for work. You coverage of radio, the top engineering event where they all come together internally with GM, where one of a few press outlets here, the Cube bringing exclusive coverage. Thanks for watching.