>> [Announcer] Live from Los Angeles, it's The Cube, covering E3 2018, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with The Cube, we're at E3 at the LA Convention Center, 68,000 people milling around, but we've got kind of the backdoor access here to the Warner Brothers Games booth, so we're really excited to be back in here, the inner sanctum, talking about some of the new games coming out and we got Phill Ring, he's the Executive Producer of TT Games, Phil, great to see you. >> No, thank you very much for having me. >> Absolutely, so you're in charge of this wonderful game, that we've got on the wall behind us, the Lego DC Super-Villains? >> Sure, yeah, I'm lucky enough to be one of the incredibly talented team, 'cause we're really excited about this game, Lego DC Super-Villains is something we've actually been playing around with as an idea for a while, you get to be the villains, you get to be the bad guys, so we're really excited we actually finally get to show and talk about it. >> Right, after doing what, three games of Batman, so now you get a flip over, you get to be the Riddler or the Joker? >> Yeah, this is it, so with the kind of DC universe, we did the Lego Batman titles, but DC has amazing villains, you've got Joker, you've got Harley, you've got Lex and we were like you know what? Let's play as those, let's do something really cool, let's do a story where we're focusing on the villains, because we've never done it before, we think it'll be quite fun and hopefully people are gonna really enjoy it. >> Great, so it's coming out, so give the particulars for everybody at home, who's waiting to get their order in. >> Sure, so it's available October 16th, it's actually available for pre-order now and depending where you're pre-ordering it from, there's actually a really cool Lex Luthor power-suit mini figure you can get, so it features in the game and then you can actually have that model sat on your desk, so I'm really excited, I'm gonna run off and pre-order it as soon as I can, 'cause I want that figure. >> Well, that's cool, but the other feature you talked about before we turned on the cameras, you can actually make yourself into a Lego figure, right? >> This is really cool, yeah. So when we were looking at this game, we were sat there thinking, okay, villains are really, really cool, but I wonder what it would be like if I could put myself into this world, what happens if I'm playing with Joker and with Lex, so we decided to put the Character Customizer in, so right at the very beginning of the game, Commissioner Gordon's heading to find out some information about this new character and then you customize that character and that's your character, so you make whoever you want, as crazy as you want, there's loads of kind of depth to the Customizer, you can change decors, colors, torsos, facial features, hair pieces and then that character appears throughout the story, so they walk out in a cut scene and that's really cool and then that character unlocks new powers and abilities and becomes stronger as you play through the game. >> Right, so I'm just curious on kind of the evolution of the game, again you did some earlier versions, that weren't the same game, but you know, this one is kind of built onto that, what did you discover, in terms of how people play the game? One of my favorite topics is degree of difficulty, >> Sure. >> How do you figure out the degree of difficulty, to make it difficult enough from excited to attack a challenge and conquer it, but not so difficult, where I'm just banging my head against a wall and throw my controller out the window and say, I just can't get through this thing. >> So that's something that the team do really, really well. We always look at it and go, okay, we know that these games are for a younger audience or at least to start with, so we want something that an eight-year old kid, who may have never played a Lego game before can come along, have loads of fun with this world, so we're making sure that we're kind of educating the player, we have a new tutorial system in this game, where we can show little videos to go, so you've just unlocked this cool power, this is how it works. So we can kind of educate people, but then we know that we're gonna have like either fans of Lego games, but also like DC Comic fans, like we have people kind of telling us, "Oh, I play this with my wife and things," so they want a bit more of a challenge and that's when we get to go into like the Free Play world, so once you're playing the story, you can then go explore all these locations and you find the slightly trickier puzzles, where it's like, oh, I need to figure out what I need to do here, what character do I need, what ability do I need to use? So having that kind of accessibility, so it's really accessible to get into the game, but then there's loads of depth to it, >> Right. >> so that's really cool for us and it's one of these things that we're really kind of happy with, 'cause we also find that the eight-year old kids run around doing all the hard puzzles and we struggle with them, so sometimes it swings, so. >> I was gonna say, so what are some of the things you measure to see if you're hitting that objective? Is it time in a level? Is it time being in there? I mean, what are some of the factors, that you guys are actually looking and measuring to see if you maybe have to make an adjustment, based on the actual behavior? >> So we love getting people to play the game, so we bring kids in and we'll sit there, then we see them playing it and if they're getting stuck, if there's something that's not really kind of standing out to them, if they're spending too much time in an area, not knowing what they're doing, we'll go okay, right, we need to change that, we need to signpost that differently, we need to turn round and say, how can we make it clearer to the player, so they know what they do, but also keep the rewards, so that they feel like they've achieved, that they feel like they've figured it out. >> Right. >> So that's one of the things, like if someone's getting stuck on a level and they're there for like three, four, five minutes and they don't know what to do, we don't want that experience for people, so we'll sit there and go, okay, how can we make that clearer? Is there something we can do? Is there something we can maybe flash a piece of Lego or something and sit there and go, these Lego bricks, maybe you wanna smash those up and that's also really cool, 'cause villains get to smash things up. >> Right, right. >> and go, okay, if I break that, I can make that clearer, then the player will then know what to do and they'll be able to progress. >> So it's really signaling is really the big kind of, way to help them get over that, versus completely changing that piece of the play? >> Yeah, we really do think that we can hopefully change the puzzles to be able to do that, we have had instances though, where we sit there and go, actually, no one gets this, this is too complicated, back to the drawing board and so we'll rip a puzzle out and sit there and go, actually, how do we change this, this is overly complicated, it's too confusing, let's do something different, let's do something that's really cool and it also means that we get to go, let's have a second stab at it and sometimes we get really cool results from it and some of the puzzles are even better than what we had previously, so. >> And the other piece I think is really interesting is clearly these are very well-known brands, Lego's a very well-known brand, DC is a very well-known brand, so you've got a narrative, you've got a story, you have kind of the look and feel, at the same time you want players to be able to do all kinds of things and you don't necessarily know where they're gonna go, how they're gonna interact, so how do you kind of balance the play with the narrative? >> So one of the great things about this game is from a story point of view and a narrative, we actually, it's an original creation and we worked really closely with DC and that allows us to kind of really help with the kind of pacing of the adventure, so as you're playing through and you start off on the first level, when you're breaking out of a prison, you then get dropped into the Open World Hub and we get to signpost people and say, hey, you can go over here to continue the story, but if you wanna go off and explore, you do that, go for it, go see what you can find and then we kind of have something that allows players to keep coming back, because these worlds, we know that there are massive fans of them, so if you turn round to someone and say, you can go to Gotham City, they'll know where they wanna go, like if I'm a Batman fan, I'm like, I'm going to the Iceberg Lounge, I wanna see what it is. So we give players that freedom to really explore it, but then always kind of let them be able to kind of return to the story path and that's another thing that we think is really important, because when people are playing these games, we want them to be able to make the choices of how they play the game. >> Right, great, that's interesting, so if there is a place, that they want to go to, 'cause they love Gotham City, they're big fans of Batman and it's not there, you guys hear a lot of feedback? I mean, do people come back, so that you've got to pump that into the next iteration of the game and the next update? >> Yeah, we do, we listen to what fans do and we've been doing that for years, so ever since we've been doing these DC titles, we sit there and go, what do people wanna do, what do people wanna see? One of the things that I love is that we have massive DC fans in the office, so a lot of the stuff, we'll sit there and we'll see like requests coming in on social media going, I really hope this character's there and we get to look at our character list and go, yep, he's there, who put it in? And then we go chat with them and they go, of course I'm gonna include that character, I love them and some of them are really obscure. >> Right. >> But yeah, we love listening to feedback and seeing what people expect and what they want to see from this world. >> It's really interesting balance, 'cause you get all the leverage from those known brands, those known characters, those known stories, >> Sure. >> but at the same time, as you said, you've got a lot of people, that are really into it and they're gonna hold you to a standard, >> Yeah. >> to make sure, that you're representing everything as they think it really should be. >> Yeah, very much so and this is the other thing about having fans in the office is we keep ourselves to that high standard as well, we sit there and go, it needs to be right, like I am a fan of Gorilla Grodd, he needs to do everything I want him to do, because I know this character inside and out and so when we have people, who are that passionate about the game on staff, we just wanna be able to share that with the world and so when we hear feedback, that people go, "Oh, we love it, it's exactly what I wanted," it's like we love that, it's incredible to know that we kind of feel like we've got it right, we've got these characters right. >> It's so cool though, just the integration of the Legos with all these other brands and just the, and it's not even the Lego blocks, the Lego people and how well it's been able to be integrated with all these other brands and the integration just seems to work so, so, so well. >> Yeah, no, I've been lucky enough to be with TT for over 11 years now, so being able to work on these games and see how we can do a Lego version of these stories and these worlds and these universes, I'm so privileged to be able to do that and the Lego version is different, so Lego DC Super-Villains is a world of DC, that you won't see anywhere else, because it's our take on it, >> Right. >> it's the developer and working with DC, being able to go, let's make something cool and working really closely with Lego and going, what sets are you making? Let's put those in, that's really cool, so. >> It's awesome, alright, well Phill, thanks for taking a few minutes, congratulations on the game and good luck on October 16th. >> Great, thank you very much, thank you. >> Alright, he's Phill, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube from E3 and LA Convention center. Thanks for watching. (dynamic music)

>> From the cube studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the cubes. Special presentation on the future of cloud. Three years ago, Alan Nance said to me that in order to really take advantage of cloud and drive billions of dollars of value, you have to change the operating model. I've never forgotten that statement and have explored it from many angles over the last three years. In fact it was one of the motivations for me actually running this program for our audience. Of course with me is Alan Nance. He is a change agent. He's led transformations at large organizations, including ING bank, Royal Phillips, Barclay's bank, and many others. He's also a co-founder of CitrusCollab. Alan, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the program. >> Thanks for having me again, Dave. >> All right, so when we were preparing for this interview, you shared with me the following, you said enterprise IT, often hasn't really tapped the true powers that are available to them to make real connections, to take advantage of that opportunity, connections to the business that is. What do you mean by that? >> Well I think we we've been saying for quite a long time that enterprise IT is certainly a big part of our past in technology. But just how much is it going to be in the future? And enterprise IT has had a difficult time under the cost pressures of being a centralized organization with large, expensive, large topics. While at the same time we see obviously the digital operations for growing oftentimes in separate reporting structures and closest to the business. And what I'm thinking right now is enterprise IT, if it has made this transition to a cloud operating models, whether they are proprietary or whether they are public cloud, there's a huge opportunity for enterprise IT to connect the dots in a way that no other part of the organization can do that. And when they connect those dots, working closely with the business, they unleash a huge amount of value that is beyond things like efficiency or things like just providing cloud computing to be flexible. It has to be much more about value generation. And I think that a lot of leaders of enterprise IT have not really grasped that. And I think that's the opportunity sitting right in front of them right now. >> You know what I've seen lately? I wonder if you could comment, is obviously we always talk about the stove pipes, but you've seen the CIO, the chief data officer that you just mentioned, the chief digital officer, the chief information security officer, they've largely been in their own silos of definitely seeing a move to bring those together. I'm seeing a lot of CDOs and CIO roles come together. And even the chief information or the head of security reporting up into that, where there seems to be as you're sort of suggesting just a lot more visibility across the entire organization. Is it an organizational issue? Is it a mindset? Go on if you could comment. >> Well I would say it's two or three different things. Certainly it's an organizational issue, but I think it starts off with a cultural issue. And I think what you're seeing, and if you look at the more progressive companies that you see, I think you are also seeing a new emergence of the enlightened technology leader. So with all respect to me and my generation our tenure as the owners of the large enterprise IT is coming to an end. And we grew up trying to master the complexity of the silos as you so deftly pointed out. Out we were battling this soaring technology, trying to get it under control, trying to get the costs down, trying to reduce CapEx. And a lot of that was focused on the partnerships that we had with technology suppliers. And so that mindset of being engineers struggling for control, having your most important part of being a technology company itself, I've got now, I think is giving way, giving way to a new generation of technology leaders who haven't grown up with that culture. And oftentimes what I see is that the new enlightened CIOs are female and they are coming into the role outside of the regular promotion chain, so they're coming to these roles through finance, HR, marketing, and they're bringing a different focus. And the focus is much more about how do we work together to create an amazing experience for our employees and for our customers and an experience that drives value. So I think there's a reset in the culture. And clearly when you start talking about creating a value chain to improve experience, you're also talking about bringing people together from different multidisciplinary backgrounds to make that happen. >> Well that's kind of, it makes me think about Amazon's mantra of working backwards, start with the experience. And then a lot of CIOs that I know would love to be more involved in the business, but they're just so busy trying to keep the lights on. Like you said, trying to manage vendors and in the like. I've had a discussion the other day with an individual, we were talking about how, you got to shift from a product mindset to a platform mindset, but you've said that the platform thinking you're always ahead of the game. Platform thinking it needs to make way for ecosystem thinking. Unless you're into that, it'd be giant scale business like Amazon or Spotify you said, you're going to be in a niche market if you really don't tap that ecosystem again . If you could explain what you mean by that? >> Well I think right now, if this movement to experience is fundamental. Right? So Joe Pine and Jim Gilmore wrote about the experience economy as far back in 1990, but the things that they predicted then are here now. And so what we're now seeing is that consumers have choice. Employees have choice. I think the pandemic has accelerated that. And so what happens when you put an enterprise under that type of external pressure, is that it fragments. And if it can fragment in two ways. It can fragment dysfunctionally so that every silo tries to go into a defensive mode, protective mode. That's obviously the wrong way to go. But the fragmentation that's exciting is when it fragments into ecosystems that are actually working together to solve and experience problem. And those are not platforms they're too big. When I was at Phillips, I was very enthusiastic about working on this connected healthcare platform. But I think what I started to realize was it takes too much time. It requires too much investment and you are bringing people who tune you based on your capability, whereas what the market needs is much more agile than that. So if we look in healthcare, for instance and you want to connect patients at home, with patients, with the doctors in the hospital. In the old model when you said, I'm going to build a platform for this, I'm going to have doctors with a certain competence, so they're going to be connecting into this. And so are the patients in some way. And so are the insurers. I think what you're going to see now is different. We're going to say let's get together a small team that understands its competence. So for instance, let's get an insurance provider, let's get a healthcare operator, let's get a healthcare tech company and let's pull their data in a way that helps us to create solutions now that can roll out in 30, 60 or 90 days. And the thing that makes that possible is the move to the public cloud. Because now there are so many specialized suppliers, specialized skillsets available that you can connect to through Amazon, through Google, through Azure, that these things that we used to think were very, very difficult, are now much easier. I don't want to minimize the effort, but these things are on the table right now to read value. >> So you're also technologist. And I want to ask you and everybody always says, technology is easy part of the people and the process. We can all agree on that. However sometimes technology can be a blocker. And the example that you just mentioned, I have a couple of takeaways from that. First of all the platform thinking is somewhat, sounds like it's more command and control and you're advocating for let's get the ecosystem who are closest to the problem to solve those problems. However they decide and they'll leverage the cloud. So my question is from a technology standpoint. Does that ecosystem have to be in the same cloud, with the state of today's technology? can it be across clouds? Can be there pieces on prem? What's your thinking on that? >> I think exactly the opposite. It cannot be monolithic and centralized. It's just not practical because that would cause you too much time on interoperability. And who owns what. You see the power behind experience is data. And so the most important technical part of this is dealing with data liquidity. So the data that, for instance somebody like Kaiser has or the Harvard Mental Healthcare have or the Phillips have, that's not going to be put into a central place for the ecosystem mobilization. There will be subsets of that data flowing between those parties. So the technical, the hardware. Is how do we manage data liquidity? How do we manage the security around data liquidity? And how do we also understand that what we're building is going to be ever changing and maybe temporary, because an idea may not work. And so you've got this idea that the timeliness is very very important. The duration is very uncertain. The mojo energy for this is data liquidity, data transfer, data sharing. But the vehicle is the combination of public cloud, in my mind. >> Somebody said to me, hey that data's like water. It'll go where it wants to go, where it needs to go and you can't try to control it. It's let it go. Now of course many organizations, particularly large incumbent organizations they have many many data pipelines. They have many processes, many roles, and they're struggling to actually kind of inject automation into those pipelines. Maybe that's machine intelligence really do more data sharing across that pipeline and ultimately compress the end and cycle time to go from raw data to insights that are actionable. What are you seeing there? And what's your advice? >> Well I think you make some really good points, but what I hear also a little bit in your observation is you're still observing enterprises. And the focus of the enterprise has been on optimizing the processes within the boundaries of its own system. That's why we have SAP and this why we have Salesforce. And to some degree even service now. It's all been about optimizing how we move data, how we create production services. And that's not the game now. That's not an important game. The important game right now is how do I connect to my employees? How do I connect to my customers in a way that provides them a memorable experience? And the realization is, I'm assuming it's already manufacturing for some years. I can't be all things to all people. So I have to understand this is where the first part of data comes in. I have to understand. Who this person is that I am trying to target? Who is the person that needs this memorable experience? And what is that memorable experience going to look like? And I'm going to need my data, but I'm also going to need the data of other actors in that ecosystem. And then I'm going to have to build that ecosystem really quickly to take advantage of the system. So this throws a monkey rage in traditional ideas of standardization. It throws a monkey rage in the idea that enterprise IT is about efficiency. If I may, I just want to come back to the AI because I think we're looking in the wrong places. Things like AI. And let me give you an example today, there are 2.2 million people working in call centers around the world. If we imagine that they work in three shifts, that means that anyone time there are 700,000 people on the phone to a customer, and that customer is calling that company because they're vested, they're calling them with advice. They're calling them with a question they're calling them with a complaint. It is the most important source of valuable data that any company has. And yet, what have we done with that? What we've done with that is we've attacked it with efficiency. So instead of saying, these are the most valuable sources of information, let's use AI to tag the sentiment in the recordings that we make with our most valuable stakeholders. And let's analyze them for trends, ideas things that needs to change. We don't do that. What we do is we're going to give every cool agent two minutes to get them off the phone. For God's sake, don't answer many important, difficult questions. Don't spend money talking to the customer, try to make them happy. So they get a score and say, they hire you at the end of the call, and then you're done. So where the AI automation needs to come in is not in improving your efficiency, but in mining value. And the real opportunity with AI is that Joe Pine says this. "If you are able to understand the customer, rather than interpret them, that is so valuable to the customer, that they will pay money for that". And I think that's where the whole focus needs to be in this new team in enterprise IT, and they're still in the business. >> That's a great observation. I think we can all relate to that in your call center example, or you've been a restaurant, and you're trying to turn the tables fast and get out of there. And it's the last time you ever go to that restaurant. And you're taking that notion of systems thinking and broadening it to ecosystems thinking. And you've said, ecosystems have a better chance of success when they're used to stage and experience for whether it's the employee for the brand. And of course the customer and the partners. >> That's it that's exactly it. So every technology leader should be asking themselves what contribution can I and my organization make to this movement, because the business understands the problem. They don't understand how to solve it, and we've chosen a different dialogue. So we've been talking a lot about what cloud can do and the functionality that cloud has and the potential that cloud has. And those are all good things, but it really comes together. Now when we work together and we as the technology group brings in the know how we know how to connect quickly through the public cloud, we know how to do that in a secure way. We know how to manage data liquidity at scale, and we can stand these things up through our new learning of agile and DevOps. We can stand these ecosystems up fairly quickly. Now there's still a whole bunch of culture between different businesses that have to work together. The idea that I have to protect my data rather than serve the customer. But once you get past that, there's a whole new conversation enterprise IT can have, that I think gives them a new lease of life, new value. And I just think it's a really really exciting time. >> (inaudible) The intersection of a lot of different things. You talk about cloud as an enabler for sure. And that's great. We can talk about that, but you've got this. What you were referring to before is maybe you're in a niche market, but you have your marketplace. And like you're saying, you can actually use that through an ecosystem to really leave a much, much broader available market. And then vector that into the experience economy. We talk about subscriptions, the API economy, that really is new thinking. >> It is and I think what you're seeing here it's not radical in as much as all of these ideas have been around. Some of them have been around since the nineties, but what's radical is the way in which we can now mix and match these technologies to make this happen. That's growing so quickly. And I would argue to you and I've argued this before. Scale, scale as a concept within an organization is dead. It doesn't give you enough value. It gives you enough efficiency and it gives you a cloud. And it doesn't give you the opportunity to target the niche experiences that you need to do. So if we start to think of an organization as a combination of known and unknown potential ecosystems, you start to build a different operating model, a different architectural idea. You start to look outside more than you start to look inside. Which is why the cultural change that we were talking about just now goes hand in hand with this because people have to be comfortable thinking in ecosystems that may not yet exist and partnering with people where they bring to the table. There 20, 30 years of experience in a new and different way. >> So let me make sure I understand that. So you basically, if I understand it, you're saying that if your sort of end goal is scale and efficiency at scale you're going to have a vanilla solution for your customers in your ecosystem. Whereas if you will allow this outside in thinking to come in, you're going to be able to actually customize those experience, experiences and get the value of scale and efficiency. >> Right, so I mean Rory Sutherland, who is a big thinker in the marketing world has always said, "ultimately scale standardization and best practice lead to mediocrity". Because you are not focused on the most important thing for your employee or your brand. You're focused on the efficiency factors and they create very little value. In fact we know that they subvert value. So yes we need to have a very big mindset change. >> Yeah you're a top line thinker Alan and always at the forefront. I really appreciate you coming on to the cube and participate in this program. Give us a last word. So if you're a change agent, I'm an organization and I want to inject this type of change. Where do I start? >> Well I think it starts by identifying. Are we going to work on the employee experience? Do we feel that we have a model where the employees that are on stage with customers are so important that the focus has to be employees. We go down that route and then we look at what's happened to the pandemic. What type of experiences are we going to bring to those employees around their ability to have flow in their work, to get return on energy, to excite the customers? Let's do that. Let's figure out what experience are we driving now? And what does that experience need to be? If we're the customer side. As I said let's look at all the sources of information that we already have. I know companies that spend hundreds of millions a year trying to figure out what consumers want. And yet if we look in their call sentences, you will call up and they will say to you, your call may be recorded for quality purposes and training. And it's not true, less than 10% of those calls are ever listened to. And if they listened to, it's compliance, that's driving that, not the burning desire to better understand the consumer. So if we change that, then we shall get to. What can we change? What is the experience we are now able to stage with all we know and with all we can do. And let's start there, let's start with, what is the experience you want to stage? What's the experience landscape look like now? And who do we bring together to make that happen? >> Alan fantastic. Having you back in the cube, it's always a pleasure and thanks so much for participating. >> Thank you, Dave. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. >> And thank you everybody. This is Dave Vellante the cube on cloud. We'll be right back right after this short break, stay with us. (soft music)

>>from the Cube Studios in >>Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought >>leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >>Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're in our Palo Alto Studios Cove. It is still going on. So, uh, all of our all of the interviews continue to be remote, but we're excited to have Ah, Cube alumni hasn't been on for a long time, but this guy has been in the weeds of the storage industry for a very, very long time, and we're happy to, uh, I have a mon and get an update because there continues to be a lot of exciting developments. He's Phill Bollinger. Ah, he is the SVP and general manager Data center business unit from Western Digital. Joining us, I think from Colorado. So, Phil, great to see you. How is the weather in Colorado today? >>Hi, Jeff. It's great to be here. Well, it's It's a hot, dry summer here. I'm sure like a lot of places. Yeah, enjoying enjoying this summer through these unusual times it >>is. It is unusual times, but fortunately, there's great things like the Internet and heavy duty. Ah, compute and store out there so we can we can get together this way. So let's jump into it. You've been in the business a long time. You've been a Western digital, your DMC you worked on I salon and you were at storage companies before that. And you've seen kind of this never ending up into the right slope that we see, you know, kind of ad nauseam. In terms of the amount of storage demands. It's not going anywhere but up in police. Increased complexity in terms of unstructured data, sources of data, speed of data, you know, the kind of classic big V's of big data. So I wonder before we jump into specifics if you can kind of share your perspective because you've been kind of sitting in the catbird seat. And Western Digital's a really unique company. You not only have solutions, but you also have media that feeds other people solutions. So you guys are really, you know, seeing. And ultimately all this computes gotta put this data somewhere, and a whole lot of it's in our western digital. >>Yeah, it's It's a great a great intro there. Yeah, it's been interesting, you know, through my career. I've seen a lot of advances in storage technology. Uh, you know, speeds and feeds like we often say, But you know, the advancement through mechanical innovation, electrical innovation, chemistry, physics, you know, just the relentless growth of data has been, has been driven in many ways by the relentless acceleration and innovation of our ability to store that data. And that's that's been a very virtuous cycle through you know what for me has been more than 30 years and in enterprise storage there are some really interesting changes going on that I think if you think about it in a relatively short amount of time, data has gone from, you know, just kind of this artifact of our digital lives, um, to the very engine that's driving the global economy, um, our jobs, our relationships, our health, our security. They all depend on data on for most companies, kind of irrespective of size. How you use data, how you how you store it, how you monetize it, how you use it to make better decisions to improve products and services. You know, it becomes not just a matter of whether your company's going to thrive and I bet in many industries it's it's almost an existential question. Is, is your company going to be around in the future? And it and it depends on how well you're using data. So this this drive toe capitalize on the value of data is is pretty significant. >>It's Ah, it's a really interesting topic. We've had a number of conversations around trying to get, like a book value of data, if you will. And I think there's a lot of conversations, whether it's accounting, kind of way or finance or kind of of good will of how do you value this data? But I think we see it intrinsically in a lot of the big companies that are really database, like the Facebooks and the Amazons and the Netflix and the Googles and those >>types >>of companies where it's really easy to see. And if you see you know the valuation that they have compared to their book value of assets, right, it's really baked into there. So it's it's it's fundamental to going forward. And then we have this thing called Covet Hit, which, you know, >>you've >>seen on the media on social media, right? What drove your digital transformation. The CEO CIO, the CMO, the board Rick over 19. And it became this light switch moment where your opportunities to think about it or no more, you've got to jump in with both feet. And it's really interesting to your point that it's the ability to store this and think about it differently as an asset driving business value versus a cost that I t has >>to >>accommodate to put this stuff somewhere. So it's a really different kind of a mind shift and really changes the investment equation for companies like Western Digital about how people should invest in higher performance and higher capacity and more unified it in kind of democratizing the accessibility that data to a much greater set of people with tools that can now start making much more business line and in line decisions than just the data scientists you know, kind of on mahogany row. >>Yeah, like as you mentioned Jeff Inherit Western Digital. We have such a unique kind of perch in the industry to see all the dynamics in the ODM space and the hyper scale space and the channel really across all the global economy's about this this growth of data. I have worked at several companies and have been familiar with what I would have called big data projects and and, ah, fleets in the past. But the Western digital you have to move the decimal point, you know, quite a few digits to the right to get to get the perspective that that we have on just the volume of data, that the world is just relentlessly, insatiably consuming. Just a couple examples for for our Dr Projects we're working on now, our capacity enterprise Dr. Projects. You know, we used to do business case analyses and look at their life cycle. Pass it ease and we measure them and exabytes and not anymore. Now we're talking about Zeta Bytes were actually measuring capacity Enterprise drive families in terms of how many's petabytes they're gonna ship in their life cycle. And if we look at just the consumption of this data the last 12 months of Industry tam for capacity enterprise, compared to the 12 months prior to that, that annual growth rate was north of 60%. So it's it's rare to see industries that are that are growing at that pace. And so the world is just consuming immense amounts of data. And as you mentioned, the dynamics have been both an accelerant in some areas as well as headwinds and others. But it's certainly accelerated digital transformation. I think a lot of companies were talking about digital transformation and and, um, hybrid models. And Covert has really accelerated that. And it's certainly driving continues to drive just this relentless need toe to store and access and take advantage of data. Yeah, >>well, filling In advance of this interview, I pulled up the old chart right with with the all the different bytes, right, kilobytes, megabytes, gigabytes, terabytes, petabytes, exabytes and petabytes. And just just for the Wikipedia page. What is is that a byte, a zoo? Much information as there are grains of sand in all the world's beaches. For one fight, you're talking about thinking in terms of those units. I mean, that is just mind boggling to think that that is the scale in which we're operating. >>It's really hard to get your head wrapped around a set amount of storage. And, you know, I think a lot of the industry thinks when we say that a byte scale era that It's just a buzzword. But I'm here to say it's a real thing where we're measuring projects and in terms of petabytes, that's >>amazing. Let's jump into some of the technology. So I've been fortunate enough here at the Cube toe to be there at a couple of major announcements along the way. We talked before we turned the cameras on the helium announcement and having the hard drive sit in the in the fish bowl, um, to get off types of interesting benefits from this less dense air that is helium versus oxygen. I was down at the mammary and hammer announcement, which was pretty interesting. Big, big, heavy technology moves there to again increase the capacity of the hard drive based systems. You guys are doing a lot of stuff on. This five I know is an open source projects. You guys have a lot of things happening, but now there's this new thing, this new thing called zoned storage. So first off before we get into, why do we need zone storage? And really, what does it now bring to the table in terms of ah, capability? >>Yeah, Great question, Jeff. So why now, right. I as I mentioned, you know, storage. I've been in storage for quite some time in the last. Let's just say, in the last decade we've seen the advent of the hyper scale model and certainly the, you know, a whole another explosion, level of, of data and just the veracity with which the hyper scaler is can create and consume and process and monetize data. And, of course, with that has also come a lot of innovation, frankly, in the compute space around had a process that data and moving from, you know, what was just a general purpose CPU model to GP use and DP use. And so we've seen a lot of innovation on that. But you know, frankly, in the storage side, we haven't seen much change at all in terms of how operating systems applications, final systems, how they actually use the storage or communicate with the storage. And sure we've seen, you know, advances in storage capacities. Hard drives have gone from 2 to 4 to 8 to 10 to 14 16 and now are leading 18 and 20 terabyte hard drives and similarly on the SSD side, you know, now we're dealing with the complexities of seven and 15 and 30 terabytes. So things have gotten larger, as you would expect, but and and some interfaces have improved, I think Envy Me, which we'll talk about, has been nice advance in the industry. It's really now brought a very modern, scalable, low latency, multi threaded interface to a NAND flash to take advantage of the inherent performance of transistor based, persistent storage. But really, when you think about it hasn't changed a lot and so but what has changed his workloads? One thing that definitely has evolved in the space of the last decade or so is this. The thing that's driving a lot of this explosion of data and industry is around workloads that I would characterize as a sequential in nature there, see, really captured and written. They also have a very consistent lifecycle, so you would write them in a big chunk. You would read them, uh, maybe in smaller pieces, but the lifecycle of that data we can treat more as a chunk of data, but the problem is applications. Operating systems. File systems continue to interface with storage, using paradigms that are, you know, many decades old, they'll find 12 bite or even four K sectors. Size constructs were developed in, you know, in the hard drive industry, just as convenient paradigms to structure what is unstructured sea of magnetic grains into something structured that can be used to store and access data. But the reality is, you know, when we talk about SSD is structured really matters. And so these what has changed in the industry as the workloads are driving very, very fresh looks at how more intelligence could be applied to that application OS storage device interface to drive much greater officials. >>Right? So there's there's two things going on here that I want to drill down on one hand. You know, you talked about kind of the introduction of NAND flash Ah, and treating it like you did generically. You did a regular hard drive, but but you could get away and you could do some things because the interface wasn't taking full advantage of the speed that was capable in the nan. But envy me has changed that and forced kind of getting getting rid of some of those inefficient processes that you could live with. So it's just kind of classic. Next next level step up and capabilities. One is you got the better media. You just kind of plug it into the old way. Now, actually, you're starting to put in processes that take full advantage of the speed that that flash has. And I think you know, obviously, prices have come down dramatically since the first introduction. And for before, we always kind of clustered offer super high end, super low latency, super high value APS. You know, it just continues to Teoh to spread and proliferate throughout the data center. So, you know what did envy me force you to think about in terms of maximizing, you know, kind of the return on the NAND and flash? >>Yeah, yeah, in envy me, which, you know, we've been involved in the standardization after I think it's been a very successful effort, but we have to remember Envy me is is about a decade old, you know, or even more When the original work started around defining this this interface and but it's been very successful, you know, the envy, any standards, bodies, very productive, you know, across company effort, it's really driven a significant change. And what we see now is the rapid adoption of Envy Me in all data center architectures. Whether it's a very large hyper scale to, you know, classic on prim enterprise to even, you know, smaller applications. It's just a very efficient interface mechanism for connecting SSD, ease and Teoh into a server, you know, So the we continue to see evolution and envy me, which is great, and we'll talk about Z and s. Today is one of those evolutions. We're also very keenly interested in VM e protocol over fabrics. And so one of the things that Western Digital has been talking about a lot lately is incorporating Envy me over fabrics as a mechanism for now connecting shared storage into multiple post architectures. We think this is a very attractive way to build shared storage architectures in the future that are scalable, that air compose herbal that really are more have a lot more agility with respect two rack level infrastructure and applying that infrastructure to applications. Right >>now, one thing that might strike some people it's kind of counterintuitive is is within the zone, um, storage and zoning off parts of the media to think of the data also kind of in these big chunks, is it? It feels contrary to kind of optimization that we're seeing in the rest of the data center. Right? So smaller units of compute smaller units of store so that you can assemble and disassemble them in different quantities as needed. So what was the special attributes that you had to think about and and actually come back and provide a benefit in actually kind of re chunking, if you will in the zones versus trying to get as atomic as possible? >>Yeah, It's a great question, Jeff, and I think it's maybe not intuitive in terms of why zone storage actually creates a more efficient storage paradigm when you're storing stuff essentially in larger blocks of data. But if this is really where the intersection of structure and workload and sort of the nature of the data all come together, uh, if you turn back the clock, maybe 45 years when SMR hard drives host managers from our hard drives first emerged on the scene, this was really taking advantage of the fact that the right head on a hard describe is larger than the reader can't reach. It could be much smaller, and so then the notion of overlapping or singling the data on the drive giving the read had a smaller target to read. But the writer a larger right pad to write the data I could. Actually, what we found was it increases areal density significantly, Um, and so that was really the emergence of this notion of sequentially written larger blocks of data being actually much more efficiently stored. When you think about physically how it's being stored, what is very new now and really gaining a lot of traction is is the the SSD corollary to tomorrow in the hard drive. On the SSD side, we have the CNS specification, which is very similarly where you divide up a name space of an SSD and two fixed size zones, and those zones are written sequentially. But now those zones are are intimately tied to the underlying physical architecture of the NAND itself. The dies, the planes, the the three pages, the the race pages so that in treating data as a black, you're actually eliminating a lot of the complexity and the work that an SSD has to do to emulate a legacy hard drive. And in doing so, you're increasing performance and endurance and and the predictable performance of the device. >>I just love the way that that, you know, you kind of twist the lens on the problem and and on one hand, you know, by rule just looking at my notes of his own storage devices, the CS DS introduced a number of restrictions and limitations and and rules that are outside the full capabilities of what you might do. But in doing so in aggregate, the efficiency and the performance of the system in the hole is much, much better, even though when you first look at you think it's more of a limiter, but it's actually opens up. I wonder if there's any kind of performance stats you can share or any kind of empirical data, just to >>get people kind >>of a feel for what? That what that comes out as >>so if you think about the potential of zone storage in general, when again, When I talk about zone storage, there's two components. There's an HDD component of zone storage that we that we refer to as S. Some are, and there's an SSD version of that that we call Z and s So you think about SMR. The value proposition. There is additional capacity so effectively in the same Dr architecture with with, you know, roughly the same bill of material used to build the drive. We can overlap or single the data on the drive and generate for the customer additional capacity. Today with our 18 20 terabyte offerings, that's on the order of just over 10% but that Delta is going to increase significantly, going forward 20% or more. And when you think about ah, hyper scale customer that has not hundreds or thousands of racks but tens of thousands of racks, a 10 or 20% improvement and effective capacity is a tremendous TCO benefit, and the reason we do that is obvious. I mean, the the the the economic paradigm that drives large scale data centers is total cost of ownership, the acquisition costs and operating costs. And if you can put more storage in a square, you know, style of data center space, you're going to generally use less power. You're gonna run it more efficiently. You're actually from an acquisition cost. You're getting a more efficient purchase of that capacity. And in doing that, our innovation, you know, we benefit from it and our customers benefit from it so that the value proposition pours. Don't storage in in capacity. Enterprise HDD is very clear. It's it's additional capacity. The exciting thing is in the SSD side of things for Z and as it actually opens up even more value proposition for the customer. Um, because SSD is have had to emulate hard drives. There's been a lot of inefficiency in complexity inside an enterprise. SSD dealing with things like garbage collection and write amplification, reducing the endurance of the device. You have to over provision. You have to insert as much as 2025 28% additional NAND bits inside the device just too allow for that extra space, that working space to deal with with delete of the you know that that are smaller than the the a block of race that that device supports. And so you have to do a lot of reading and writing of data and cleaning up it creates for a very complex environment. Z and S by mapping the zone size with the physical structure of the SSD, essentially eliminates garbage collection. It reduces over provisioning by as much as 10% are 10 x And so if you were over provisioning by 20 or 25% in an enterprise SSD and Xeon SSD, that could be, you know, one or 2%. The other thing we have to keep in mind is enterprise. SSD is typically incorporate D RAM and that D RAM is used to help manage all those dynamics that I that I just mentioned, but with a very much simpler structure where the pointers to the data can be managed without all that d ram, we can actually reduce the amount of D ram in an enterprise SSD by as much as eight X. And if you think about the bill of material of an enterprise, SSD d ram is number two on the list in terms of the most expensive bomb components. So Z and S and SSD is actually have a significant customer. Total cost of ownership impact. Um, it's it's an exciting it's an exciting standard. And now that we have the standard ratified through the Envy me working group, um, you can really accelerate the development of the software ecosystem around >>right. So let's shift gears and talk a little bit about less about the tech and more about the customers and the implementation of this. So, you know, are there you talked to kind of generally, but are there certain certain types of workloads that you're seeing in the marketplace where this is, you know, a better fit? Or is it just really the big heavy lifts? Um, where they just need more and this is better. And then secondly, within you know, these both hyper scale companies, um, as well as just regular enterprises that are also seeing their data demands grow dramatically. Are you seeing you know, that this is a solution that they want to bring in for kind of the marginal kind of next data center extension data center or their next ah, cloud region? Or are they doing you know, lift and shift and ripping stuff out? Or do they have enough? Do they have enough data growth organically? >>Then >>there's plenty of new stuff that they can. They can put in these new systems. >>Yeah, well, the large customers don't don't rip and shift. They they write their assets for a long life cycle because with the relentless growth of data. You're primarily investing to handle what's what's coming in over the transom, but we're seeing we're seeing solid adoption in SMR. As you know, we've been working on that for a number of years. We've we've got, you know, significant interest in investment co investment, our engineering and our customers engineering, adapting the the application environments. Let's take advantage of SMR. The great thing is, now that we've got the envy me, the Xeon s standard ratified now, in the envy of the working group, um, we've got a very similar and all approved now situation where we've got SMR standards that have been approved for some time in the sand and scuzzy standards. Now we've got the same thing in the envy, any standard. And that's the great thing is once a company goes through the lifts, so it's B to adapt an application file system, operating system, ecosystem to zone storage. It pretty much works seamlessly between HDD and SSD. And so it's not. It's not an incremental investment when you're switching technologies and for obviously the early adopters of these technologies are going to be the large companies who designed their own infrastructure. You have you know, mega fleets of racks of infrastructure where these efficiencies really, really make a difference in terms of how they can monetize that data, how they compete against, you know, the landscape of competitors They have, um, for companies that are totally reliant on kind of off the shelf standard applications. That adoption curve is gonna be longer, of course, because there are there are some software changes that you need to adapt to to enable zone storage. One of the things Western Digital is has done, and taking the lead on is creating a landing page for the industry with zone storage. Not Iot. It's a Web page that's actually an area where, where many companies can contribute open source tools, code validation environments, technical documentation it's not. It's not a marketeering website. It's really a website bill toe land, actual open source content that companies can and use and leverage and contribute to. To accelerate the engineering work to adapt software stacks his own storage devices on to share those things. >>Let me just follow up on that, because again you've been around for a while and get your perspective on the power of open source and you know, it used to be, you know, the the best secrets, the best I p were closely guarded and held inside. And now really, we're in an age where it's not necessarily and you know, the the brilliant minds and use cases and people out there. You know, just by definition, it's a It's a more groups of engineers, more engineers outside your building than inside your building and how that's really changed. You know, kind of the strategy in terms of development when you can leverage open source. >>Yeah, Open source clearly has has accelerated innovation across the industry in so many ways. Um, and it's ah, you know, it's the paradigm around which, you know companies have built business models and innovated on top of it. I think it's always important as a company to understand what value add, you're bringing on what value add that customers want to pay for what unmet needs and your customers are you trying to solve for and what's the best mechanism to do that? And do you want to spend your R and D recreating things or leveraging what's available and and innovating on top of it? It's all about ecosystems in the days where the single company can vertically integrate. I talked about him a complete end solution. You know those air few and far between. I think it's It's about collaboration and building ecosystems and operating within those. >>Yeah, it's it's It's such an interesting change. And one more thing again, to get your perspective, you run the data center group. But there's this little thing happening out there that we see growing in I o T Internet of things and the industrial Internet of things and edge computing. As we, you know, try to move more, compute and store and power, you know, kind of outside the pristine world of the data center and out towards where this data is being collected and processed when you've got latency issues and and in all kinds of reasons to start to shift the balance of where the computers aware that store Ah, and the reliance on the network. So when you look back from a storage perspective in your history in this industry and you start to see that basically everything is now going to be connected, generating data and and and a lot of it is even open source. I talked to somebody the other day doing, you know, kind of open source, computer vision on surveillance, you know, video. So, you know, the amount of stuff coming off of these machines is growing like crazy ways at the same time, you know, it can't all be processed at the data center. It can all be kind of shift back and then have you have a decision and then ship that information back out to. So when you sit back and look at the edge from your kind of historical perspective, what goes through your mind? What gets you excited? You know, what are some of the opportunities that you see that maybe the Lehman is not paying close enough attention to? >>Yeah, it's It's really an exciting time in storage. I get asked that question from time to time, having been in storage for more than 30 years, you know what was the most interesting time, and there's been a lot of them, but I wouldn't trade today's environment for any other in terms of just the velocity with which data is is evolving and how it's being used and where it's being used. You know that the TCO equation made describe what a data center looks like. But data locality will determine where it's located and we're excited about the edge opportunity. We see that as a pretty significant, meaningful part of the TAM. As we look out 3 to 5 years, certainly five G is driving much of that. I think just anytime you speed up the speed of the connected fabric, you're going to increase storage and increase the processing of the data. So the edge opportunity is very interesting to us. We think a lot of it is driven by low latency workloads. So the concept of envy any, um is very appropriate for that. We think in general SSD is deployed in in edge data centers defined as anywhere from a meter to a few kilometres from the source of the data. We think that's going to be a very strong paradigm. Um, the workloads you mentioned especially I O. T just machine generated data in general now I believe, has eclipse human generated data in terms of just the amount of data stored, and so we think that curve is just going to keep going in terms of machine generated data, much of that data is so well suited for zone story because it's sequential, it's sequentially written, it's captured, it's it has a very consistent and homogeneous lifecycle associated with it. So we think what's going on with with Zone storage in general and and Z and S and SMR specifically are well suited for where a lot of the data growth is happening. And certainly we're going to see a lot of that at the edge. >>Well, Phil, it's always great to talk to somebody who's been in the same industry for 30 years and is excited about today and the future on as excited as they have been throughout the whole careers. That really bodes well for you both. Well, for for Western Digital. And we'll just keep hoping the smart people that you guys have over there keep working on the software and the physics, Um, and then in the mechanical engineering to keep moving this stuff along. It's really ah, it's just amazing and just relentless. >>Yeah, it is. It is relentless. What's what's exciting to me in particular, Jeff is we've we've we've driven storage advancements, you know, largely through. As I said, a you know a number of engineering disciplines, and those are still going to be important going forward the chemistry of the physics, the electrical, the hardware capabilities. But I think, as you know, is widely recognized in the industry that it's a diminishing curve. I mean, the amount of energy, the amount of engineering, effort, investment, the cost and complexity of these products to get to that next capacity step, um, is getting more difficult, not less. And so things like zone storage where we now bring intelligent data placement to this paradigm is what I think makes this current juncture that we're at a very exciting >>right, Right. Well, it is applied ai, right. Ultimately, you're gonna have, you know, more more compute, you know, compute power. You know, driving the storage process and how that stuff is managed. And, you know, as more cycles become available and they're cheaper and ultimately compute, um gets cheaper and cheaper. You know, as you said, you guys just keep finding new ways to ah, to move the curve. And we didn't even get into the totally new material science, which is also, you know, come down the pike at some point in time. Well, >>very exciting. >>It's been great to catch up with you. I really enjoy the Western Digital story. I've been fortunate to to sit in on a couple chapters. So again, congrats to you. And, uh, we'll continue to watch and look forward to our next update. Hopefully, it won't be another four years. >>Okay. Thanks, Jeff. I really appreciate the time. All >>right. Thanks a lot. Alright. He's Phill. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.