(upbeat techno music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE here live in Detroit for KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is our seventh consecutive KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. Since inception, theCube's been there every year. And of course, theCUBE continues to grow. So does the community as well as our host roster. I'm here with my co-host, Lisa Martin. Lisa, great to see you. And our new theCube host, Savannah Peterson. Savannah, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks, John. >> Welcome. >> Welcome to the team. >> Thanks, team. It's so wonderful to be here. I met you all last KubeCon and to be sitting on this stage in your company is honestly an honor. >> Well, great to have you. Lisa and I have done a lot of shows together and it's great to have more cadence around. You know, more fluid around the content, and also the people. And I would like you to take a minute to tell people your background. You know the community here. What's the roots? You know the Cloud Native world pretty well. >> I know it as well as someone my age can. As we know, the tools and the tech is always changing. So hello, everyone. I'm Savannah Peterson. You can find me on the internet @SavIsSavvy. Would love to hear from you during the show. Big fan of this space and very passionate about DevOps. I've been working in the Silicon Valley and the Silicon Alley for a long time, helping companies scale internationally as a community builder as well as a international public speaker. And honestly, this is just such a fun evolution for my career and I'm grateful to be here with you both. >> We're looking forward to having you on theCUBE. Appreciate it. Lisa? >> Yes. >> KubeCon. Amazing again this year. Just keeps growing bigger and bigger. >> Yes. >> Keynote review, you were in there. >> Yup. >> I had a chance to peek in a little bit, but you were there and got most of the news. What was the action? >> You know, the action was really a big focus around the maintainers, what they're doing, giving them the props and the kudos and the support that they deserve. Not just physically, but mentally as well. That was a really big focus. It was also a big focus on mentoring and really encouraging more people- >> Love that. >> I did, too. I thought that was fantastic to get involved to help others. And then they showed some folks that had great experiences, really kind of growing up within the community. Probably half of the keynote focus this morning was on that. And then looking at some of the other projects that have graduated from CNCF, some of these successful projects, what they're doing, what folks are doing. Cruise, one of the ones that was featured. You've probably seen their driverless cars around San Francisco. So it was great to see that, the successes that they've had and where that's going. >> Yeah. Lisa, we've done how many shows? Hundreds of shows together. When you see a show like this grow and continue to mature, what's your observation? You've seen many shows we've hosted together. What jumps out this year? Is it just that level of maturization? What's your take on this? >> The maturization of the community and the collaboration of the community. I think those two things jumped out at me even more than last year. Last year, obviously a little bit smaller event in North America. It was Los Angeles. This year you got a much stronger sense of the community, the support that they have for each other. There were a lot of standing ovations particularly when the community came out and talked about what they were doing in Ukraine to support fellow community members in Ukraine and also to support other Ukrainians in terms of getting in to tech. Lot of standing ovations. Lot of- >> Savannah: Love that, yeah. >> Real authenticity around the community. >> Yeah, Savannah, we talked on our intro prior to the event about how inclusive this community is. They are really all in on inclusivity. And the Ukraine highlight, this community is together and they're open. They're open to everybody. >> Absolutely. >> And they're also focused on growing the educational knowledge. >> Yeah, I think there's a real celebration of curiosity within this community that we don't find in certain other sectors. And we saw it at dinner last night. I mean, I was struck just like you Lisa walking in today. The energy in that room is palpably different from last year. I saw on Twitter this morning, people are very excited. Many people, their first KubeCon. And I'm sure we're going to be feeding off of that, that kind of energy and that... Just a general enthusiasm and excitement to be here in Detroit all week. It's a treat. >> Yeah, I even saw Stu Miniman earlier, former theCube host. He's at Red Hat. We were talking on the way in and he made an observation I thought was interesting I'll bring up because this show, it's a lot "What is this show? What isn't this show?" And I think this show is about developers. What it isn't is not a business show. It's not about business. It's not about industry kind of posturing or marketing. All the heavy hitters on the dev side are here and you don't see the big execs. I mean, you got the CEOs of startups here but not the CEOs of the big public companies. We see the doers. So, I mean, I think my take is this show's about creating products for builders and creating products that people can consume. And I think that is the Cloud Native lanes that are starting to form. You're either creating something for builders to build stuff with or you're creating stuff that could be consumed. And that seems for applications. So the whole app side and services seem to be huge. >> They also did a great job this morning of showcasing some of the big companies that we all know and love. Spotify. Obviously, I don't think a day goes by where I don't turn on Spotify. And what it's done- >> Me neither. >> What it's done for the community... Same with Intuit, I'm a user of both. Intuit was given an End User Award this morning during the keynote for their contributions, what they're doing. But it was nice to see some just everyday companies, Cloud Native companies that we all know and love, and to understand their contributions to the community and how those contributions are affecting all of us as end users. >> Yeah, and I think those companies like Intuit... Argo's been popular, Arlo now new, seeing those services, and even enterprises are contributing. You know, Lyft is always here, popular with Envoy. The community isn't just vendors and that's the interesting thing. >> I think that's why it works. To me, this event is really about the celebration of developer relations. I mean, every DevRel from every single one of these companies is here. Like you said, in lieu of the executive, that's essentially who we're attracting. And if you look out over the show floor here, I mean, we've probably got, I don't know, three to four extra vendors that we had last year. It totally is a different tone. This community doesn't like to be sold to. This community likes to be collaborative. They like to learn and they like to help. And I think we see that within the ecosystem inside the room today. >> It's not a top down sales pitch. It's really consensus. >> No. >> Do it out in the open transparency. Don't sell me stuff. And I think the other thing I like about this community is that we're starting to see that... And then we've said this in theCube before. We'll say it again. Maybe be more controversial. Digital transformation is about the developer, right? And I think the power is going to shift in every company to the developer because if you take digital transformation to completion, everything happens the way it's happening, the company is the application. It's not IT who serves the organization- >> I love thinking about it like that. That's a great point, John. >> The old phase was IT was a department that served the business. Well, the business is IT now. So that means developer community is going to grow like crazy and they're going to be in the front lines driving all the change. In my opinion, you going to see this developer community grow like crazy and then the business side on industry will match up with that. I think that's what's going to happen. >> So, the developers are becoming the influencers? >> Developers are the power source for all companies. They're in charge. They're going to dictate terms to how businesses will run because that's going to be natural 'cause digital transformation's about the app and the business is the app. So that mean it has to be coded. So I think you're going to see a lot of innovation around app server-like experiences where the the apps are just being developed faster than the infrastructures enabling that completely invisible. And I think you're going to see this kind of architecture-less, I'll put it out there that term architecture-less, environment where you don't need an architecture. It's just you code away. >> Yeah, yeah. We saw GitHub's mentioned in the keynote this morning. And I mean, low code, no code. I think your fingers right on the pulse there. >> Yeah. What did you guys see? Anything else you see? >> I think just the overall... To your point, Savannah, the energy. Definitely higher than last year. When I saw those standing ovations, people really come in together around the sense of community and what they've accomplished especially in the last two plus years of being remote. They did a great job of involving a lot of folks, some of whom are going to be on the program with us this week that did remote parts of the keynote. One of our guests on today from Vitess was talking about the successes and the graduation of their program so that the sense of community, but also not just the sense of it, the actual demonstration of it was also quite palpable this morning, and I think that's something that I'm excited for us to hear about with our guests on the program this week. >> Yeah, and I think the big story coming out so far as the show starts is the developers are in charge. They're going to set the pace for all the ops, data ops, security ops, all operations. And then the co-located events that were held Monday and Tuesday prior to kickoff today. You saw WebAssembly's come out of the woodwork as it got a lot of attention. Two startups got funded heavily on Series A. You're starting to see that project really work well. That's going to be an additional to the container market. So, interesting to see how Docker reacts to that. Red Hat's doing great. ServiceMeshCon was phenomenal. I saw Solo.iOS got massive traction with those guys. So like Service Mesh, WebAssembly, you can start to see the dots connecting. You're starting to see this layer below Kubernetes and then a layer above Kubernetes developing. So I think it's going to be great for applications and great for the infrastructure. I think we'll see how it comes out and all these companies we have on here are all about faster, more integrated, some very, very interesting to see. So far, so good. >> You guys talked about in your highlight session last week or so. Excited to hear about the end users, the customer stories. That's what I'm interested in understanding as well. It's why it resonates with me when I see brands that I recognize. Well, I use it every day. How are they using containers and Kubernetes? How are they actually not just using it to deploy their app, their technologies, that we all expect are going to be up 24/7, but how are they also contributing to the development of it? So I'm really excited to hear those end users. >> We're going to have Lockheed Martin. And we wrote a story on SiliconANGLE, the Red Hat, Lockheed Martin, real innovation on the edge. You're starting to see educate with the edge. It's really the industrial edge coming to be big. It'd be very interesting to see. >> Absolutely, we got Ford Motor Company coming on as well. I always loved stories, Savannah, that are history of companies. Ford's been around since 1903. How is a company that- >> Well, we're in the home of Ford- as well here. >> We are. How they evolved digitally? What are they doing to enable the developers to be those influencers that John says? It's going to be them. >> They're a great example of a company that's always been on the forefront, too. I mean, they had a head of VRs 25 years ago when most people didn't even know what VR was going to stand for. So, I can't wait for that one. You tease the Docker interview coming up very well, John. I'm excited for that one. One last thing I want to bring up that I think is really refreshing and it's reflected right here on this stage is you talked about the inclusion. I think there's a real commitment to diversity here. You can see the diversity stats on CNCF's website. It's right there on KubeCon. At the bottom, there's a link in every email I've gotten highlighting that. We've got two women on this stage all week which is very exciting. And the opening keynote was a woman. So quite frankly, I am happy as a female in this industry to see a bit more representation. And I do appreciate just on the note of being inclusive, it's not just about gender or age, it's also about the way that CNCF thinks about your experience since we're in this kind of pandemic transitional period. They've got little pins. Last year, we had bracelets depending on your level of comfort. Equivocally like a stoplight which is... I just think it's really nice and sensitive and that attention to detail makes people feel comfortable. Which is why we have the community energy that we have. >> Yeah, and being 12 years in the business... With theCUBE, we've been 12 years in the business, seven years with KubeCon and Cloud Native, I really appreciate the Linux Foundation including me as I get older. (Lisa and Savannah laugh) >> Savannah: That's a good point. >> Ageism were, "Hey!" Thank you. >> There was a lot of representation. You talked about females and so often we go to shows and there's very few females. Some companies are excellent at it. But from an optics perspective, to me it stands out. There was great representation across. There was disabled people on stage, people of color, women, men of all ages. It was very well-orchestrated. >> On the demographic- >> And sincere. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And the demographics, too. On the age side, it's lower too. You're starting to see younger... I mean, high school, college representation. I saw a lot of college students last night. I saw on the agenda sessions targeting universities. I mean, I'm telling you this is reaching down. Open source now is so great. It's growing so fast. It's continuing to thunder away. And with success, it's just getting better and better. In fact, we were talking last night about at some point we might not have to write code. Just glue it together. And that's why I think the supply chain and security thing is an issue. But this is why it's so great. Anyone can code and I think there's a lot of learning to have. So, I think we'll continue to do our job to extract the signal from the noise. So, thanks for the kickoff. Good commentary. Thank you. All right. >> Of course. >> Let's get started. Day one of three days of live coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier with Lisa Martin, and Savannah Peterson. Be back with more coverage starting right now. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to the aria in Las Vegas, Dave Valante with Dave Nicholson, Falcon 22, the Cube's continuous coverage. Sean Henry is here. He's the president of the services division and he's the chief security officer at CrowdStrike. And he's joined by Kevin mania, CEO of Mandy. Now part of Google Jens. Welcome to the cube. Thank you. Congrats on closing the Google deal. Thank you. That's great. New chapter, >>New >>Chapter coming fresh off the keynote, you and George. I really en enjoyed that. Let's start there. One of the things you talked about was the changes you've been, you've been in this business for a while. I think you were talking about, you know, doing some of these early stuff in the nineties. Wow. Things have changed a lot the queen, right? Right. You used to put the perimeter around the queen. Yeah. Build the Mo the Queen's left or castle new ballgame. But you were talking about the board level knowledge of security in the organization. Talk about that change. That's occurred in the last >>Decade. You know, boards are all about governance, right? Making sure everybody's doing the right things. And they've kind of had a haul pass on cybersecurity for a long time. Like we expect them to be great at financial diligence, they understand the financials of an organization. You're gonna see a maturity, I think in cybersecurity where I think board members all know, Hey, there's risk out there. And we're on our own to kind of defend ourselves from it, but they don't know how to quantify it. And they don't know how to express it. So bottom line boards are interested in cyber and we just have to mature as an industry to give them the tools they need to measure it appropriately. >>Sean, one of the things I wanted to ask you. So Steven Schmidt, I noticed changed his title from CISOs chief inf information security officer, the chief security officer. Your title is chief security officer. Is that a nuance that has meaning to you or is it just less acronym? >>It depends on the organization that you're in, in our organization, the chief security officer owns all risks. So I have a CISO that comes underneath me. Yep. And I've got a security folks that are handling our facilities, our personnel, those sorts of things, all, all of our offices around the globe. So it's all things security. One of the things that we've found and Kevin and I were actually talking about this earlier is this intersection between the physical world and the virtual world. And if you've got adversaries that want gain access to your organization, they might do it remotely by trying to hack into your network. But they also might try to get one of your employees to take an action on their behalf, or they might try to get somebody hired into your company to take some nefarious acts. So from a security perspective, it's about building an envelope around all things valuable and then working it in a collaborative way. So there's a lot of interface, a lot of interaction and a lot of value in putting those things together. And, >>And you're also president of the services division. Is that a P and L role or >>It is, we have a it's P P O P and L. And we have an entire organization that's doing incident response and it's a lot of the work that we're doing with, with Kevin's folks now. So I've got both of those hats today. >>Okay. So self-funded so in a way, okay. Where are companies most at risk today? >>Huh? You wanna go on that one first? Sean, you talk fast than me. So it's bigger bang for the buck. If >>You >>Talk, you know, when I, when I think about, about companies in terms of, of their risk, it's a lot of it has to do with the expansion of the network. Companies are adding new applications, new devices, they're expanding into new areas. There are new technologies that are being developed every day and that are being embraced every day. And all of those technologies, all of those applications, all of that hardware is susceptible to attack. Adversaries are looking for the vulnerabilities they can exploit. And I think just kind of that sprawl is something that is, is disconcerting to me from a security perspective, we need to know where our assets are, where the vulnerabilities lie, how do we plug the holes? And having that visibility is really critical to ensure that you're you're in, involved in mitigating that, that new architecture, >>Anything you >>Did. Yeah. I would like when I, so I can just tell you what I'm hearing from CISOs out there. They're worried about identity, the lateral movement. That's been kind of part of every impactful breach. So in identity's kind of top three of mind, I would say zero trust, whatever that means. And we all have our own definitions of migration to zero trust and supply chain risk. You know, whether they're the supplier, they wanna make sure they can prove to their customers, they have great security practices. Or if they're a consumer of a supply chain, you need to understand who's in their supply chain. What are their dependencies? How secure are they? Those are just three topics that come up all the time. >>As we extend, you know, talking about XDR the X being extend. Do you see physical security as something that's being extended into? Or is it, or is it already kind of readily accepted that physical security goes hand in hand with information security? >>I, I don't think a lot of people think that way there certainly are some and Dave mentions Amazon and Steve Schmidt as a CSO, right? There's a CSO that works for him as well. CJ's clear integration. There's an intelligence component to that. And I think that there are certain organizations that are starting to recognize and understand that when we say there's no real perimeter, it, it expands the network expands into the physical space. And if you're not protecting that, you know, if you don't protect the, the server room and somebody can actually walk in the doors unlocked, you've got a vulnerability that might be exploited. So I think to, to recognize the value of that integration from a security perspective, to be holistic and for organizations to adopt a security first philosophy that all the employees recognize they're, they're the, the first line of defense. Oftentimes not just from a fish, but by somebody catching up with them and handing 'em a thumb drive, Hey, can you take a look at this document? For me, that's a potential vulnerability as well. So those things need to be integrated. >>I thought the most interesting part of the keynote this morning is when George asked you about election security and you immediately went to the election infrastructure. I was like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But then I was so happy to hear you. You went to the disinformation, I learned something there about your monitoring, the network effects. Sure. And, and actually there's a career stream around that. Right. The reason I had so years ago I interviewed was like, this was 2016, Robert Gates. Okay. Former defense. And I, I said, yeah, but don't we have the best cyber can't we go on the offense. He said, wait a minute, we have the most to lose. Right. But, but you gave an example where you can identify the bots. Like let's say there's disinformation out there. You could actually use bots in a positive way to disseminate the, the truth in theory. Good. Is, is that something that's actually happening >>Out there? Well, I think we're all still learning. You know, you can have deep fakes, both audible files or visual files, right. And images. And there's no question. The next generation, you do have to professionalize the news that you consume. And we're probably gonna have to professionalize the other side critical thinking because we are a marketplace of ideas in an open society. And it's hard to tell where's the line between someone's opinion and intentional deception, you know, and sometimes it could be the source, a foreign threat, trying to influence the hearts and minds of citizens, but there's gonna be an internal threat or domestic threat as well to people that have certain ideas and concepts that they're zealots about. >>Is it enough to, is it enough to simply expose where the information is coming from? Because, you know, look, I, I could make the case that the red Sox, right. Or a horrible baseball team, and you should never go to Fenway >>And your Yankees Jersey. >>Right. Right. So is that disinformation, is that misinformation? He'd say yes. Someone else would say no, but it would be good to know that a thousand bots from some troll farm, right. Are behind us. >>There's, it's helpful to know if something can be tied to identity or is totally anonymous. Start just there. Yeah. Yeah. You can still protect the identity over time. I think all of us, if you're gonna trust the source, you actually know the source. Right. So I do believe, and, and by the way, much longer conversation about anonymity versus privacy and then trust, right. And all three, you could spend this whole interview on, but we have to have a trustworthy internet as well. And that's not just in the tech and the security of it, but over time it could very well be how we're being manipulated as citizens and people. >>When you guys talk to customers and, and peers, when somebody gets breached, what's the number one thing that you hear that they wished they'd done that they didn't. >>I think we talked about this earlier, and I think identity is something that we're talking about here. How are you, how are you protecting your assets? How do you know who's authorized to have access? How do you contain the, the access that they have? And the, the area we see with, with these malware free attacks, where adversaries are using the existing capabilities, the operating system to move laterally through the network. I mean, Kevin's folks, my folks, when we respond to an incident, it's about looking at that lateral movement to try and get a full understanding of where the adversary's been, where they're going, what they're doing, and to try to, to find a root cause analysis. And it really is a, a critical part. >>So part of the reason I was asking you about, was it a P and L cuz you, you wear two hats, right? You've got revenue generation on one side and then you've got you protect, you know, the company and you've got peer relationships. So the reason I bring this up is I felt like when stucks net occurred, there was a lot of lip service around, Hey, we, as an industry are gonna work together. And then what you saw was a lot of attempts to monetize, you know, private data, sell private reports and things of that nature you were referencing today, Kevin, that you think the industry's doing a much better job of, of collaboration. Is it, can you talk about that and maybe give some examples? >>Absolutely. I mean, you know, I lived through it as a victim of a breach couple years ago. If you see something new and novel, I, I just can't imagine you getting away with keeping it a secret. I mean, I would even go, what are you doing? Harboring that if you have it, that doesn't mean you tell the whole world, you don't come on your show and say, Hey, we got something new novel, everybody panic, you start contacting the people that are most germane to fixing the problem before you tell the world. So if I see something that's new in novel, certainly con Sean and the team at CrowdStrike saying, Hey, there's because they protect so many endpoints and they defend nations and you gotta get to Microsoft. You have to talk to pan. You have to get to the companies that have a large capability to do shields up. And I think you do that immediately. You can't sit on new and novel. You get to the vendor where the vulnerability is, all these things have to happen at a great rate to speak. >>So you guys probably won't comment, but I'm betting dollars to donuts. This Uber lapses hack you guys knew about. >>I turned to you. >>No comment. I'm guessing. I'm guessing that the, that wasn't novel. My point being, let me, let me ask it in a more generic fashion that you can maybe comment you you're. I think you're my, my inference is we're com the industry is compressing the time between a zero day and a fix. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like dramatically. >>Yes. Oh, awareness of it and AIX. Yes. Yeah. >>Okay. Yeah. And a lot of the hacks that we see as lay people in the media you've known about for quite some time, is that fair or no, not necessarily. >>It's, you know, it's harder to handle an intrusion quietly and discreetly these days, especially with what you're up against and, and most CEOs, by the way, their intent isn't, let's handle it quietly and discreetly it's what do we do about it? And what's the right way to handle it. And they wanna inform their customers and they wanna inform people that might be impacted. I wouldn't say we know it all that far ahead of time >>And, and depends. And, and I, I think companies don't know it. Yeah. Companies don't know they've been breached for weeks or months or years in some cases. Right. Which talks about a couple things, first of all, some of the sophistication of the adversaries, but it also talks about the inability of companies to often detect this type of activity when we're brought in. It's typically very quickly after the company finds out because they recognize they've gotta take action. They've got liability, they've got brand protection. There, whole sorts of, of things they need to take care of. And we're brought in it may or may not be, become public, but >>CrowdStrike was founded on the premise that the unstoppable breach is a myth. Now that's a, that's a bold sort of vision. We're not there yet, obviously. And a and a, and a, a CSO can't, you know, accept that. Right. You've gotta always be vigilant, but is that something that is, that we're gonna actually see manifest, you know, in any, any time in the near term? I mean, thinking about the Falcon platform, you guys are users of that. I don't know if that is part of the answer, but part of it's technology, but without the cultural aspects, the people side of things, you're never gonna get there. >>I can tell you, I started Maning in 2004 at the premise security breaches are inevitable, far less marketable. Yeah. You know, stop breaches. >>So >>Yeah. I, I think you have to learn how to manage this, right? It's like healthcare, you're not gonna stop every disease, but there's a lot of things that you can do to mitigate the consequences of those things. The same thing with network security, there's a lot of actions that organizations can take to help protect them in a way that allows them to live and, and operate in a, in a, a strong position. If companies are lackadaisical that irresponsible, they don't care. Those are companies that are gonna suffer. But I think you can manage this if you're using the right technology, the right people, you've got the right philosophy security first >>In, in the culture. >>Well, I can tell you very quickly, three reasons why people think, why is there an intrusion? It should just go away. Well, wherever money goes, crime follows. We still have crime. So you're still gonna have intrusions, whether it has to be someone on the inside or faulty software and people being paid the right faulty software, you're gonna have war. That's gonna create war in the cyber domain. So information warriors are gonna try to have intrusions to get to command and control. So wherever you have command and control, you'll have a war fighter. And then wherever you have information, you have ESP Espino. So you're gonna have people trying to break in at all times. >>And, and to tie that up because everything Kevin said is absolutely right. And what he just said at the very end was people, there are human beings that are on the other side of every single attack. And think about this until you physically get physically get to the people that are doing it and stop them. Yes, this will go on forever because you can block them, but they're gonna move and you can block them again. They're gonna move their objectives. Don't change because the information you have, whether it's financial information, intellectual property, strategic military information, that's still there. They will always come at it, which is where that physical component comes in. If you're able to block well enough and they can't get you remotely, they might send somebody in. Well, >>I, in the keynote, I, I'm not kidding. I'm looking around the room and I'm thinking there's at least one person here that is here primarily to gather intelligence, to help them defeat. What's being talked about here. >>Well, you said it's, >>It's kind >>Of creepy. You said the adversary is, is very well equipped and motivated. Why do you Rob banks? Well, that's where the money is, but it's more than that. Now with state sponsored terrorism and, you know, exfiltration of state secrets, I mean, there's, it's high stake's games. You got, this >>Has become a tool of nation states in terms from a political perspective, from a military perspective, if you look at what happened with Ukraine and Russia, all the work that was done in advanced by the Russians to soften up the Ukrainians, not just collection of intelligence, not just denial of services, but then disruptive attacks to change the entire complexity of the battlefield. This, this is a, an area that's never going away. It's becoming ingrained in our lives. And it's gonna be utilized for nefarious acts for many, many decades to come. >>I mean, you're right, Sean, we're seeing the future of war right before us is, is there's. There is going to be, there is a cyber component now in war, >>I think it signals the cyber component signals the silent intention of nations period, the silent projection of power probably before you see kinetics. >>And this is where gates says we have a lot more to lose as a country. So it's hard for us to go on the offense. We have to be very careful about our offensive capabilities because >>Of one of the things that, that we do need to, to do though, is we need to define what the red lines are to adversaries. Because when you talk about human beings, you've gotta put a deterrent in place so that if the adversaries know that if you cross this line, this is what the response is going to be. It's the way things were done during nuclear proliferation, right? Right. During the cold war, here's what the actions are gonna be. It's gonna be, it's gonna be mutual destruction and you can't do it. And we didn't have a nuclear war. We're at a point now where adversaries are pushing the envelope constantly, where they're turning off the lights in certain countries where they're taking actions that are, are quite detrimental to the host governments and those red lines have to be very clear, very clearly defined and acted upon if they're >>Crossed as security experts. Can you always tie that signature back to say a particular country or a particular group? >>Absolutely. 100% every >>Time I know. Yeah. No, it it's. It's a great question. You, you need to get attribution right. To get to deterrence, right. And without attribution, where do you proportionate respond to whatever act you're responding to? So attribution's critical. Both our companies work hard at doing it and it, and that's why I think you're not gonna see too many false flag operations in cyberspace, but when you do and they're well crafted or one nation masquerades is another, it, it, it's one of the last rules of the playground I haven't seen broken yet. And that that'll be an unfortunate day. >>Yeah. Because that mutually assure destruction, a death spot like Putin can say, well, it wasn't wasn't me. Right. So, and ironically, >>It's human intelligence, right. That ultimately is gonna be the only way to uncover >>That human intelligence is a big component. >>For sure. Right. And, and David, like when you go back to, you were referring to Robert Gates, it's the asymmetry of cyberspace, right? One person in one nation. That's not a control by asset could still do an act. And it, it just adds to the complexity of, we have attribution it's from that nation, but was it in order? Was it done on behalf of that nation? Very complicated. >>So this is an industry of superheroes. Thank you guys for all you do and appreciate you coming on the cube. Wow. >>I love your Cape. >>Thank all right. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave ante be right back from Falcon 22 from the area you watching the cue.