(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas. theCUBE is here, live at AWS re:Invent 2021. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. theCUBE has two sets today, two, not one, two, two live sets, two remote sets, over 100 guests on the program at this event, it's a lot, talking about the next generation of cloud innovation with AWS and its massive ecosystem of partners and we are pleased to welcome Walton Smith to the program, the public sector, director of strategic partnerships for Worldwide Technology, Walton welcome to the program. >> Thank you so much for having me, it's really amazing to be here and look forward to a great conversation. Isn't it great to be in person again? >> It's so nice to be in person, I mean I'm glad everybody's being safe and, and checking vaccine status and whatnot, but it's good to get back and, and, and work with people cause we can really drive innovation when, when we get together. >> Those hallway conversations or those conversations here at events that you just can't replicate by video conferencing, right? Not replicate that, you getting grabbed in the hall and say, hey, have you thought about leveraging XYZ to do something? To me that's what makes this conference great. >> Talk to me about what's going on at WWT. What are some of the, the things that you guys have been working on? >> It's a really exciting time at Worldwide, we're really working closely with AWS to drive innovation to the edge. We're excited about their outpost offering, we actually have one in our data center, Sandy announced it today in a partnership with Intel to, to allow our customers to try to work out use cases, to, to kick the tires, so to speak, to see how it works as well as our partners to get their ISV products certified on the outpost platform. >> So I'm familiar with your ATC in St. Louis, is that what you're referring to? >> That's correct. >> Give us a little, give us a little insight into what goes on there, I know it's pretty amazing from a customer perspective because you are agnostic. because you are agnostic. >> Walton: Correct. >> You're there to serve the customer, but tell me, tell me what happens in the ATC. >> We say we're agnostic, but we have our, our, our preferences because we know- >> sure, sure, okay. what actually works. But our ATC is our crown jewel, it's about a $600 million data center that we built solely for proof of concepts for our customers. So our, our top customers come in and say, I have this problem, how can I solve it? And so with us being the single biggest reseller of just about every ISV is out there, I can stand up a, a, a Dell, I can stand up a, a, a Dell, Dell compute next to NetApp storage with Cisco router on top of it to replicate what my customer has at the VA, for example, and then to be able to plug in an outpost to show how leveraging the outpost can give them a single pane of glass to be able to work on their workload, so the training that our FSI, Federal System Integrators have put into their staff or our government customers on the Amazon platform can now be driven into their data center, so it's really taking the cloud down to where the data is. >> In terms of public sector, what are some of the prominent use cases that you guys are helping customers to solve, especially given the tumultuous times that we're still living in? Sure, so what we saw during COVID especially was how most of the government agencies had the capability to allow say 5% to 10% of their workforce to work remotely. And then with COVID, they went to 95% to a 100% workforce. So, a lot of the time we've spent over the last year is how do we securely allow our government employees to get access to the information, because as we know, the government was more valuable than ever to get us through this pandemic, we had to give them the tools that they needed to be able to make the decisions to, to move the country forward. >> Talk about security if you will for a second, we have seen such a dramatic change in the security landscape, the threat landscape, ransomware as a service, it's, you know, the cyber criminals, lot of money in it, they're becoming far more brazen. What are some of the things that you're seeing specifically with respect to security use cases? >> It's, it's gone from, let me just buy everything that's out there and that'll give me security to, I need to have visibility into my environment, because if, if you look at target, it's a great case studies around that, they had all the tools, they just didn't tie it all together. And so as more and more nation state actors And so as more and more nation state actors try to attack our government, or it's a great way to make money, I mean, in, in this, in the presentation, Sandy's today, they talked about, if you looked at the GDP of what's been taken in ransomware, it's like the 10th biggest country in the world, I mean, it's scary and staggering how much money is lost. So what we think, going back to our ATC, we can stand up their environment, we can work with the top security providers in the world to show those customers how we can give them that visibility, the, the, the protection and the ability to get back up, because there's really only two types of organizations, those who've been hacked and those who don't know they've been hacked, they're going to get in, it's how do we mitigate the damage, how do we get them back up and running and how we protect my customers or have some of the most sensitive data in the world, how do we protect that so our government can keep us safe and keep us moving forward. >> Yeah, cause these days it's a matter of when we get hacked, not if. And of course we are only hearing about the large attacks. >> Walton: Correct. We don't hear about- all of the ones that go on day in and day out, I think, I think I saw a stat recently that a ransomware attack happens like once every 11 seconds. >> Correct, I mean, just walking through here, how many text messages you've gotten? You want a free iPad click here, I mean, they're, they're down to the individual level. It's a whole lot cheaper to give a couple people, really powerful laptops, pizza and beer, and have them go attack, than it is to, to set up a real business and so, unfortunately, as long as there's money in it, there's going to be bad actors out there. We think partnering with AWS and other partners can help build solutions. >> You know, WWT has had an interesting history because you didn't start with the dawn of cloud. >> Walton: Right. So you've been in the business of AT for a long time So you've been in the business of AT for a long time and logistics out of St. Louis in a lot of ways. What does that look like in terms of navigating that divide? You know, there's a, there's a whole storied history of companies that were not able to cross the divide from the mainframe era to the client server era, let alone to cloud. You seem to have, you seem to be doing that pretty well. >> I, I appreciate that, I mean, we're the biggest company no one's ever heard of. We're 14, $15 billion privately held firm, the same two guys that founded it, still run it today and all they want to do is do cool things, they want it to be truly the best place to work. So from day one, they've invested in training our staff, building the ATC to give us the tools we need to be successful and then because we're a trusted partner with Amazon Intel and our other partners out there, they're investing in us to help build solutions, so we have over 6,000 engineers, they get up every day, how do I build something that can help our customers really drive change and innovation? So it's been a really fun ride and the, the best is yet to come. >> Talk to me about your customer focus, you know, when we talk, here we are at reinvent, we always talk with AWS about their, you know, Dave, we talked about this customer obsession, the fact that they're working backwards from the customer, do you share that sort of philosophy? Does WWT share that philosophy with AWS? >> 100%?, if you go to WWT.com we've published everything that we have so you can get full access to our lab to learn about x ISV and go deep to learn about x ISV and go deep and see the million and a half labs we've built around, say Red Hat and go and get access to it. So we think that if we educate our customers, there are going to be customers for life, and they're going to come to us with their biggest problems. And that what's, is what's exciting and what enables us to, to really continue to grow. >> And how did the customers help you innovate? And that's one of the things we, I was thinking yesterday with, with this AWS flywheel of when Adam was introducing, and now we have a, now we have, and it was because he would say, we did this, but you needed more, but you being the customer needed more. >> 100%, it, it's we want our customers to come to us with their biggest problems, because that's when we, the exciting innovation works. And so the ability to sit down with the foremost expert in, in virus control and be able to, in, in virus control and be able to, what are the tools that she need to be able to get ahead of the next change to COVID? How can we give them the tools to do that? That's what we want to do, the scalability, the ability to reach out to others is what Amazon brings. So we can bring the data science, we can bring the understanding of the storage, the security, and the network and then AWS gives that limitless scalability to solve those problems and to bring in someone from Africa, to bring in someone from the European Union to, to work together to solve those problems, that's what's, what's exciting and then coming back to the outpost, to be able to put that in the data center, we know the data center is better than just about anybody out there, so it would be the ability to add innovation to them, to bring those part ISV partners together. It's really exciting that Intel is funding it because they know that if, if customers can see the art of the possible, they're going to push that innovation. >> One of the things we've also sort of thematically Dave and I with guests, and the other has been talking about this week is that every company has to be a data company, whether it's public sector, private sector, if you're not, or if you're not on your way, there's a competitor right here in the rear view mirror ready to take your place. How do you help public sector organizations really develop, embrace an execute a data full course strategy? >> So we have a cadre of over 125 data scientists that work every day to help organizations unlock their most valuable asset, that data, their people and be able to put the data in the right place at the right time and so by investing in those data scientists, investing in the networking folks to be able to look at the holistic picture is how we can bring those solutions to our customers, because the data is the new oil of, of the environment and sorry for my Southern twang on the oil, but it, but it truly is the most valuable asset they have and so, how do we unlock that? How do they pull that data together, secure it? Because now that you're aggregating all that data, you're making it a treasure trove for those bad actors that are out there, so you've got to secure it, but then to be able to learn and, and automate based on, on what you learned from that data. >> You know I, I think with hindsight, it's easy to, it's easy to say, well, of course WWT is where WWT is today. Five years ago, though, I think it would have been an honest question to ask, how are you going to survive in the world of cloud? And here we are, you've got outposts. >> Walton: Sure. >> And, and of course it makes sense because you're focused on customers, sounds like I'm doing a commercial for you, But I'm a fan- >> I'll gladly apreciate that- because I, I, I've worked with you guys in a variety of roles for a long time, seems like yesterday we were testing a bunch of different storage arrays of the ATC and now you've got outposts in cloud and you're integrating it together. It's really more of the same, I'm sure if we had your founders here, they'd tell you, Dave, it's all the same. >> Walton: Correct. It's all the same. >> It's AT, it's where, where's the compute, where's the storage, how do you get access to it and the cloud has given the ability to, to scale and do things you could never imagine. I think it's the reason we're here is because our leadership continues to invest and pushing that envelope to give people the freedom to go out with that crazy idea, what if we did this? And having the tools and the ability to do that is, is what, what drives our innovation and that's what we bring to our customers and our partners, that ability to innovate to, that ability to innovate to, to tackle that next problem. >> So what's the tip of the spear right now for you guys? What are you, what's, what's, what's kind of, what's next? What are you waiting to have delivered to the ATC to racket, stack and cable up? >> Lot's of stuff that I can't tell you about because there, there's things that Amazon is, is always working on that we work with before it, it's, it's made public, so there's a lot of really cool stuff in the pipeline, because the, as you think about moving to the data center, that's one thing, moving to truly to the edge, where you can help that war fighter, where you can help that mission, where you can do disaster recovery, leveraging the snowball family, the outpost family, and custom built tools that really allow for quick response and custom built tools that really allow for quick response to whatever that problem is, is that next front and that's where we've been for a long time, helping our, our war fighters and folks do what needs to be done. Outpost sees that you can leverage big AWS Outpost sees that you can leverage big AWS to build the models, push it down to the edge because you don't have time or the bandwidth to get it back into the big cloud, to be able to put that compute and storage and analytics on the edge to make real time decisions, is what we have to do to stay relevant and that's where the joint partnership is really exciting. >> It's what you have to do to stay relevant, it's also what your customers need, cause one of the things that we've learned in the pandemic is that real-time data and access to it is no longer, longer a nice to have, this is business critical for everything. >> Correct and even if you have a fat pipe to get it, you need to make real time decisions and if you're in a really sandy space, excuse me, making hard decisions, you've got to get the best information to that soldier when, when they need it to, to save our lives or to save the other people's lives so it's, it's, it's not just a nice to have, it's mission critical. >> It is mission critical, Walton, thank you so much, we're out of time, but thank you for joining Dave and me talking about- >> Really enjoyed it. all the stuff going on with, with worldwide, the partnership with AWS, how you're helping really transform the public sector, we appreciate your time and your insights. >> Thank you so much, have a great conference. >> Thanks, you too. >> Okay, thanks. >> All right, from my buddy, Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE, the global leader in live tech coverage. 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>> Voiceover: Live from Washington, D.C., it's The Cube covering .NEXT Conference. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to Nutanix .NEXT Con, this is The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage, and we're here just outside of Washington, D.C. John Walton is here, he's the CIO of San Mateo County, Cube alum, good to see you again, thanks for coming back on. >> Great to be here, thanks for having me. You're very welcome, so it was good show. You been to .NEXT Con before, or-- >> This is my second one. >> Second one, okay. It's good little meet-ups, still kind of intimate, but they're growing, good buzz, what's your sense so far? >> I think it's good, I like to see the partners here. I've been wandering around, talking to some of my fellow CIOs on the floor here. It seems like people are really starting to understand better where Nutanix is going. I think there's a little bit of, you know, concern in the CIO community when they went public what that would mean, would they going to get bought out? And I think people are just happy to see status quo, heading in the right direction, being stable. You know, we all feel like our money's well invested and they are going to be around for the long run. >> I wonder if we could talk, sort of about the CIO role specifically at the county. And, you know, CIO, a lot of jokes, career is over, and keeping the lights on, that's all you do, and kind of thankless jobs, etc. But times are changing, everybody's talking about digital disruption, everybody's talking about being data driven. The whole big data thing is actually starting to feel real. And a lot of CIOs tell us that, in fact the last guest was saying we were sort of able to shift our attention from doing just nitty gritty infrastructure management to doing fun stuff. Is that what you're seeing in your environment? What are some of the drivers, and what's the environment like for you? >> Yeah, it is that way in San Mateo County. I mean, San Mateo County is interesting 'cause we are kind of the forgotten county between San Jose and San Francisco, right? Everybody commutes through San Mateo to one place or the other. But it's an exciting county to work in because you have so many of the thought leaders who actually live in the county. They run the companies and things. So, you have a community that's a very embracing of technology, and as the CIO for the county, I have the opportunity to play a multiple number of roles. I think what you alluded to, sort of the traditional view of the CIO role was keep the lights on, make sure everybody's got a new PC, don't let anything go down. And in our county certainly there was an aspect of that when I first joined them. And that's how we met Nutanix, was really refreshing our infrastructure, getting our uptime up, getting compute up. But that's all invisible now. That is a thing that technologies like Nutanix have afforded a CIO like myself is after you go through that initial big lift of getting up into the 21st century, and getting your infrastructure modernized in government, then you're able to be that chief innovation officer, chief disruption person, and really say, "What can I do for the community?", "What can I do on a regional scale?", "What can I do through partnerships?", so... You know, I really feel like infrastructure really has to become invisible. Nobody cares what switch is transmitting their data, nobody care what WAP they're connecting to. I mean, the end users don't really care what hyper-convert solution we use to provide the solution. I care, 'cause I'm a geek, and I care about the budget, and I care that my staff are happy, but really at the end of the day, the people who I'm most worried about are, you know, that departments that provide services to the public I'm trying to show relevance to, the elected officials who want to see us heading in the right direction and really adding value as government to the public that pays a lot of taxes, frankly. They want to see benefits. So, I'm really excited about the coming, we just got out of our budget cycle, and sort of really setting that vision for what do we want to do in the coming years. Nutanix powers that, but I don't have to worry about it anymore. >> John, what are some of those drivers that are helping you to innovate or provide more services, what are some of the big things you can share? >> Well I think you have to look at it from a, when you have infrastructure that's robust and it's up and it's cost-affordable, then you don't spend 80% of your time worrying about that. That's not what's keeping you awake at night. I get asked that a lot, "What's keeping you awake at night?" It's no longer that hard work on a crash or fail, or become the thing that delays all of my projects. So now the value-adds we look for is connectivity. You know, we talk about SMC Connect, San Mateo County Connect. It's now that we've created the infrastructure, put all of the services online, how do we get people better to connect to those? Do we need to market them more, or do we need to help understand the value they add to the community more? Do we need more wireless connectivity, do we need fiber connectivity? It's more connecting the public to the backend solution, whether they live in my data center or the cloud, what I care about are, are the applications and data relevant to the public, are they making their lives better, and do they have the tools to connect to those? 'Cause, kind of like San Mateo, it's very diverse. You know, you have sort of a high-tech corridor down the 101 corridor, where you have a lot of high tech area, and then you have a very rural area out towards the coast, and very different population you have to serve. >> Sounds like you're a service provider. >> Yes >> Yeah, yeah. >> Talk about this notion of invisibility. How has it changed the way in which your team works? >> Well, I think, you know, everyone wants to feel valued. I think if you're a network engineer or a server engineer, you want to feel like you add value. The one thing I think we do well in San Mateo County is, you know, we have performance metrics that we publish, that we're trying to achieve. Whether it's uptime or customer satisfaction, those trickle down to every group. So, invisibility means you don't have to worry about it anymore. But we do try to keep some visibility on how every staff person contributes to the ultimate outcome we're trying to achieve. So if people can see how6 they're individual efforts add value to the end result, I think they feel valued and they feel important. Invisibility's important because when I go to board meeting now, I'm not talking about, "Oh I need millions of dollars for this server," "Oh, we need to do this big network refresh." That's too visible. That's making the infrastructure the cornerstone of all your conversations, and it takes about two seconds before the board member's or elected official's eyes glaze over. They don't want to hear it. They want to hear about what are the visible aspects, how are we helping youth and community centers better connect to educational opportunities or job or internships. So, I think there'll always going to be a spend on technology to make things better. But I think as CIOs, when we get trapped in talking about specific technologies or how important infrastructure is, that makes it too visible. That makes it seem like that's all we care about. And I think the biggest compliment I ever got, in a budget meeting, was somebody saying, "What I appreciate is we spent 30 minutes talking about IT, and you never used one technical term." You know, and I think that's the invisibility piece of it is. I think as a CIO, you know you've done your job when you never have to to talk about the technology, right? The people that we serve in the community and the elected officials, they need to assume we're making a good technical decision to make those solutions happen. So I think, in a sense, the technology should be invisible, it should be affordable it should be simple. It should enable the end results, but the nuances of the technology we use, should probably in large be invisible to the public 'cause that's not really their concern. >> So you've suppressed a lot of the mundane, complex infrastructure, kind of low value add discussion, it sounds like, with the board. I imagine one area that you still talk about a lot is security. Is that a topic that is a regular topic at board meetings? >> Absolutely, and I think all the ransomware and virus attacks and hacker attacks, you've seen recently. And, I tweet about those a lot, and we talk about those a lot because we've have real impacts on our organization about things like that, phishing attacks. And this again is back to the value add, I think the message I try to bring to the board is our weakest point in security isn't always necessarily the technology, it's the complexity of the technology, right? So, the more complex we make our systems, the more complex and difficult to manage our infrastructure is, the more opportunities for weakness there are. So, we've gone from taking about security in an ivory tower aspect to, I think the two areas where we can focus on is more simplifying our infrastructure so it's easier to manage and easier to secure from our staff's standpoint, and that really adds value. So, we're really able to rapidly react to and address security issues as they come up because we have simplified our infrastructure. The board doesn't really need to worry about how we've done that, but the staff feel more confident that they're able to react to and manage those things, and then we can do value add things like train the users to be more aware of how phishing attacks happen when there's threats. Communicate better. We spent most of our time in the back room hashing servers, now with the Nutanix infrastructure, it's the easy button upgrade to patch servers and to get things addressed, and we can spend more of our time communicating with the end users about threats that are out there, how they should react, how they should respond to it. >> So John, you're kind of an early adopter of this whole concept of convergence. When we first met at VM Worlds a couple years ago, I think we were talking about traditional converged infrastructure, if I can use that term. Are you still using that type of infrastructure, how does is compare with so-called hyper-converged infrastructure, do you see differences? Is HCI a buzzword, or is it substantive in your view? >> I think it's substantive, you know I was doubtful at first too. You know, I came from, like you said, a few years ago, I think every CIO faces this. Especially in the public sector. It's what I call project ware. You know, you do a project, you do an RFP, you got three or four racks of equipment in of the lowest bidder, and that becomes a little island. And then you do the next RFP and you kind of grow your data center like that. We had tried early on when some of the new, sort of converged infrastructures were coming out, and I spend a lot of time going to EBCs, and talking about reference architectures, and one throat to choke when it came to when there's a problem, is it a compute problem or is it a storage problem? I think the industry has recognized for a while now since we first had these conversations about, again, simplifying and collapsing the complexity of those infrastructures is important. You know, I was doubtful when we first did the pilot with Nutanix. We first did the pilot around just VDI. We just saw Nutanix three years ago as a point solution, sort of the project where this was going to be our VDI platform. We would still maintain these other infrastructures for really important projects that needed the more traditional architectures. And, you know, it's really credited to my staff and engineers, it only took about six months before we had failing infrastructure, they would say, "Hey, we can use Nutanix. Let's hyper-converge, and chime in for other things, for compute. And now we're 100% virtualized. You know, we have over 1,200 servers now, all running on the Nutanix. There hasn't been a time in two years where my staff came to me and said, "The hyper-converged infrastructure we've selected isn't going to work for this, we have to buy something else." And so, to me that's when it goes from the theoretical, it might work, it might just be a... to a reality. If I'm going to go all in, and my staff are going to go all in on something, they have to be pretty confident that that's going to work for 'em. >> Are you Acropolis Hypervisor? >> We are in some things, you know, we don't use it for everything. But I think, you know, it goes back. We still have a very good relationship with VMware, we still think in some cases that VMware tools are still slightly more mature than the Acropolis tools. We think Acropolis has been catching up, we've actually been pushing really hard on Nutanix, to make it mature. And that's one of the reasons we've went with this platform, is we like to see that competition. We'd like to think that the Acropolis product will continue to mature, and challenge Vmware to either continue to evolve ahead of it, or bring their prices down to compete with it. >> You know, John, what's still on your to do list for Nutanix and it's ecosystem in your mind? >> You know, we're really looking at, really now around our disaster-recovery strategy, we're doing local replication between two data centers that are about six miles apart, which from a local building failure standpoint's useful. But my county's on the San Andreas fault, so the likelihood that a large earthquake is going to take both local data center is pretty high. So, we're really looking with Commvault and Nutanix and Amazon Web Services now, sort of about, you know, we have over 200 applications we support, for both public safety, healthcare, really mission-critical things that we can have zero downtime on, and in a disaster situation, healthcare and public safety applications are probably going to be the most needed applications out there. So, we're really pushing to try to see what that future looks like in the next 12 months around the Nutanix infrastructure. I don't say we have everything solved locally, but we're very confident in what we've implemented locally for our local compute, but really that next thing, what is the right balance between cloud compute and local compute? And how does that fit into the DR conversation's important. And back to your question about security, we still have real concerns about how secure is the public cloud. You know, it's not is it going to get hacked, but can the public cloud infrastructure be compromised to the point where in a disaster, if that's not available, how are we still going to get the data and applications up and running we need? So, we really see that there needs to be a balance between the two things. >> It's a response issue for you, and in that case-- >> It is, and we don't believe it's less secure, but we believe there's a RTO we need to meet in a disaster, and having lived through the Japan earthquake when I was in Tokyo when they had the 9.0, response time was critical. You can't say, "Well, we'll have the internet connection back up by then," and be reliant on your partners to do that, you need access to that data right now. So you've got a synchronous connection today, between your two data center, is that right? >> We have two data centers, but not to an out-of-area data center yet. That's what we need to accomplish next. >> Okay, yeah, good. Alright, listen. John, thanks very much for coming to The Cube. >> It's my pleasure. >> Let me give you the last word here on Nutanix, your future with them, or other things that you'd want to share? >> Well, we're excited about it and I'd recommend to any CIO who's watching this or thinking about it, really consider it, and see how it fits into your ecosystem. >> Great, always good having you on. Thanks very much for coming. >> It's my pleasure, thank you gentlemen. >> You're welcome. Alright, keep right there, buddy. Stew and I back with our next guest. This is The Cube, we're live from Nutanix .NEXT Conf. Be right back. >> Voiceover: Robert Herjavec

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes. Special showcase with unstoppable domains. I'm John furrier, your host of the cube here in Palo Alto, California and Matt Gould, who is the founder and CEO of unstoppable domains. Matt, great to come on. Congratulations on the success of your company on stumbled domains. Thanks for kicking off this showcase. >>Thank you. Happy to be here. So >>Love, first of all, love the story you got going on here. Love the approach, very innovative, but you're also on the big web three wave, which we know where that leads into. Metaverse unlimited new ways. People are consuming information, content applications are being built differently. This is a major wave and it's happening. Some people are trying to squint through the hype versus reality, but you don't have to be a rocket science to realize that it's a cultural shift and a technical shift going on with web three. So this is kind of the what's happening in the market. So give us your take. What's your reaction? You're in the middle of it. You're on this wave. >>Yeah. Well, I would say it's a torrent of change and the get unleashed just over a decade ago with Bitcoin coming out and giving people the ability to have a digital items that they could actually own themselves online. And this is a new thing. And people coming, especially from my generation of millennials, they spend their time online in these digital spaces and they've wanted to be able to own these items. Do you see it from, you know, gaming and Fortnite and skins and Warcraft and all these other places, but this is really being enabled by this new crypto technology to just extend a whole lot more, uh, applications for money, which everyone's familiar with, uh, to, uh, NFT projects, uh, like boarding school. >>You know, I was listening to your podcast. You guys got a great pot. I think you're on a 117 episodes now and growing, you guys do a deep dive. So people watching check out the unstoppable podcast, but in the last podcast, man, you mentioned, you know, some of the older generations like me, I grew up with IP addresses and before the web, they called it information super highway. It wasn't even called the web yet. Um, but IP was, was generated by the United States department of commerce and R and D that became the internet. The internet became the web back then it was just get some webpages up and find what you're looking for. Right. Very analog compared to what's. Now, today, now you mentioned gaming, you mentioned, uh, how people are changing. Can you talk about your view of this cultural shift? And we've been talking about in the queue for many, many years now, but it's actually happening now where the expectation of the audience and the users and the people consuming and communicating and bonding and groups, whether it's gaming or communities are expecting new behaviors, new applications, and it's a forcing function. >>This shift is having now, what's your reaction to that? What's your explanation? >>Yeah, well, I think, uh, it just goes back to the shift of peoples, where are they spending their time? And if you look today, most people spend 50% plus of their time in front of a screen. And that's just a tremendous amount of effort. But if you look at how much, how much of assets are digital, it's like less than 1% of their portfolio would be some sort of digital asset, uh, compared to, you know, literally 50% of every day sitting in front of a screen and simultaneously what's happening is these new technologies are emerging around, uh, cryptocurrencies, blockchain systems, uh, ways for you to track the digital ownership of things, and then kind of bring that into, uh, your different applications. So one of the big things that's happening with web three is this concept of data portability, meaning that I can own something on one application. >>And I could potentially take that with me to several other applications across the internet. And so this is like the emerging digital property rights that are happening right now. As we transitioned from a model in web to where you're on a hosted service, like Facebook, it's a walled garden, they own and control everything. You are the product, you know, they're mining you for data and they're just selling ads, right? So to assist them where it's much more open, you can go into these worlds and experiences. You can take things with you, uh, and you can, you can leave with them. And most people are doing this with cryptocurrency. Maybe you earn an in-game currency, you can leave and take that to a different game and you can spend it somewhere else. Uh, so the user is now enabled to bring their data to the party. Whereas before now you couldn't really do that. And that data includes their money or that includes their digital items. And so I think that's the big shift that we're seeing and that changes a lot and how applications, uh, serve up to user. So it's going to change their user experiences. For instance, >>The flip, the script has flipped and you're right on. I agree with you. I think you guys are smart to see it. And I think everyone who's on this wave will see it. Let's get into that because this is happening. People are saying I'm done with being mined and being manipulated by the big Facebooks and the LinkedIns of the world who were using the user. Now, the contract was a free product and you gave it your data, but then it got too far. Now people want to be in charge of their data. They want to broker their data. They want to collect their digital exhaust, maybe collect some things in a game, or maybe do some commerce in an application or a marketplace. So these are the new use cases. How does the digital identity architecture work with unstoppable? How are you guys enabling that? Could you take us through the vision of where you guys came on this because it's unique in an NFT and kind of the domain name concept coming together? Can you explain? >>Yeah. So, uh, we think we approach the problem for if we're going to rebuild the way that people interact online, uh, what are kind of the first primitives that they're going to need in order to make that possible? And we thought that one of the things that you have on every network, like when you log on Twitter, you have a Twitter handle. When you log on, uh, you know, Instagram, you have an Instagram handle, it's your name, right? You have that name that's that's on those applications. And right now what happens is if users get kicked off the platform, they lose a hundred percent of their followers, right? And theirs. And they also, in some cases, they can't even directly contact their followers on some of these platforms. There's no way for them to retain this social network. So you have all these influencers who are, today's small businesses who build up these large, you know, profitable, small businesses online, uh, you know, being key opinion leaders to their demographic. >>Uh, and then they could be D platform, or they're unable to take this data and move to another platform. If that platform raised their fees, you've seen several platforms, increase their take rates. You have 10, 20, 30, 40%, and they're getting locked in and they're getting squeezed. Right. Uh, so we just said, you know what, the first thing you're going to want to own that this is going to be your piece of digital property. It's going to be your name across these applications. And if you look at every computer network in the history of computing networks, the end up with a naming system, and when we've looked back at DDA desk, which came out in the nineties, uh, it was just a way for people to find these webpages much easier, you know, instead of mapping these IP addresses. Uh, and then we said to ourselves, you know, uh, what's going to happen in the future is just like everyone has an email address that they use in their web two world in order to, uh, identify themselves as they log into all these applications. >>They're going to have an NFT domain in the web three world in order to authenticate and, and, uh, bring their data with them across these applications. So we saw a direct correlation there between DNS and what we're doing with NFT domain name systems. Um, and the bigger breakthrough here is at NMT domain systems or these NFT assets that live on a blockchain. They are owned by users to build on these open systems so that multiple applications could read data off of them. And that makes them portable. So we were looking for an infrastructure play like a picks and shovels play for the emerging web three metaverse. Uh, and we thought that names were just something that if we wanted a future to happen, where all 3.5 billion people, you know, with cell phones are sending crypto and digital assets back and forth, they're gonna need to have a name to make this a lot easier instead of, you know, these long IP addresses or a hex addresses in the case of Porto. >>So people have multiple wallets too. It's not like there's all kinds of wallet, variations, name, verification, you see link trees everywhere. You know, that's essentially just an app and it doesn't really do anything. I mean, so you're seeing people kind of trying to figure it out. I mean, you've got to get up, Angela got a LinkedIn handle. I mean, what do you do with it? >>Yeah. And, and then specific to crypto, there was a very hair on fire use case for people who buy their first Bitcoin. And for those in the audience who haven't done this yet, when you go in and you go into an app, you buy your first Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever cryptocurrency. And then the first time you try to send it, there's this, there's this field where you want to send it. And it's this very long text address. And it looks like an IP address from the 1980s, right? And it's, it's like a bank number and no one's going to use that to send money back and forth to each other. And so just like domain names and the DNS system replace IP addresses in Ft domains, uh, on blockchain systems, replace hex addresses for sending and receiving, you know, cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever. And that's its first use case is it really plugs in there. So when you want to send money to someone, you can just, instead of sending money to a large hex address that you have to copy and paste, you can have an error or you can send it to the wrong place. It's pretty scary. You could send it to John furrier dot, uh, NFT. And uh, so we thought that you're just not going to get global adoption without better UX, same thing. It worked with the.com domains. And this is the same thing for the coin and other >>Crypto. It's interesting to look at the web two or trend one to two web one went to two. It was all about user ease of use, right? And making things simpler. Clutter, you have more pages. You can't find things that was search that was Google since then. Has there actually been an advancement? Facebook certainly is not an advancement. They're hoarding all the data. So I think we're broken between that step of, you know, a free search to all the resources in the world, to which, by the way, they're mining a lot of data too, with the toolbar and Chrome. But now where's that web three crossover. So take us through your vision on digital identity on web to Google searching, Facebook's broken democracy is broken users. Aren't in charge to web three. >>Got it. Well, we can start at web one. So the way that I think about it is if you go to web one, it was very simple, just text web pages. So it was just a way for someone to like put up a billboard and here's a piece of information and here's some things that you could read about it. Right. Uh, and then what happened with web two was you started having applications being built that had backend infrastructure to provide services. So if you think about web two, these are all, you know, these are websites or web portals that have services attached to them, whether that's a social network service or search engine or whatever. And then as we moved to web three, the new thing that's happening here is the user is coming on to that experience. And they're able to connect in their wallet or their web three identity, uh, to that app and they can bring their data to the party. >>So it's kind of like web one, you just have a static web page whip, two, you have a static web page with a service, like a server back here. And then with three, the user can come in and bring their database with them, uh, in order to have much better app experiences. So how does that change things? Well, for one, that means that the, you want data to be portable across apps. So we've touched on gaming earlier and maybe if I have an end game item for one, a game that I'm playing for a certain company, I can take it across two or three different games. Uh, it also impacts money. Money is just digital information. So now I can connect to a bunch of different apps and I can just use cryptocurrency to make those payments across those things instead of having to use a credit card. >>Uh, but then another thing that happens is I can bring in from, you know, an unlimited amount of additional information about myself. When I plug in my wallet, uh, as an example, when I plug in to Google search, for instance, they could take a look at my wallet that I've connected and they could pull information about me that I enabled that I share with them. And this means that I'm going to get a much more personalized experience on these websites. And I'm also going to have much more control over my data. There's a lot of people out there right now who are worried about data privacy, especially in places like Europe. And one of the ways to solve that is simply to not store the data and instead have the user bring it with them. >>I always thought about this and I always debated it with David laundry. My cohost does top down governance, privacy laws outweigh the organic bottoms up innovation. So what you're getting at here is, Hey, if you can actually have that solved before it even starts, it was almost as if those services were built for the problem of web two. Yes, not three. Write your reaction to that. >>I think that is, uh, right on the money. And, uh, if you look at it as a security, like if I put my security researcher hat on, I think the biggest problem we have with security and privacy on the web today is that we have these large organizations that are collecting so much data on us and they just become these honeypots. And there have been huge, uh, breaches like Equifax, you know, a few years back is a big one and just all your credit card data got leaked, right? And all your, uh, credit information got leaked. And we just have this model where these big companies silo your data. They create a giant database, which is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not, billions, to be attacked. And then someone eventually is going to hack that in order to pull that information. Well, if instead, and you can look at this at web three. >>So for those of the audience who have used the web three application, one of these depths, um, you know, trade cryptocurrencies or something, you'll know that when you go there, you actually connect to your wall. So when you're working with these web, you connect, you, you know, you bring your information with you and you connect it. That means that the app has none of that storage, right? So these apps that people are using for crypto trading cryptocurrency on depths or whatever, they have no stored information. So if someone hacks one of these DFI exchanges, for instance, uh, there's nothing to steal. And that's because the only time the information is being accessed is when the users actively using the site. And so as someone who cares about security and privacy, I go, wow, that's a much better data model. And that give so much more control of user because the user just permissions access to the data only during the time period in which they're interacting with the application. Um, and so I think you're right. And like, we are very excited to be building these tools, right? Because I see, like, if you look at Europe, they basically pass GDPR. And then all the companies are going, we can't comply with that and they keep postponing it or like changing a little bit and trying to make it easier to comply with. But honestly we just need to switch the data models. So the companies aren't even taking the data and then they're gonna be in a much better spot. >>The GDPR is again, a nightmare. I think it's the wrong approach. Oh, I said it was screwed up because most companies don't even know where stuff is stored. Nevermind how they delete someone's entering a database. They don't even know what they're collecting. Some at some level it becomes so complicated. So right on the money are good. Good call out there. Question for you. Is this then? Okay. So do you decouple the wallet from the ID or are they together? Uh, and is it going to be a universal wallet? Do you guys see yourselves as universal domains? Take me through the thinking around how you're looking at the wallet and the actual identity of the user, which obviously is super important on the identity side while it, is that just universal or is that going to be coming together? >>Well, I think so. The way that we kind of think about it is that wallets are where people have their financial interactions online. Right. And then identity is much more about, it's kind of like being your passport. So it's like your driver's license for the internet. So these are two kind of separate products we see longer term, uh, and they actually work together. So, you know, like if you have a domain name, it actually is easier to make deposits into your wallet because it's easier to remember to send money to, you know, method, rules dot crypto. And that way it's easier for me to receive payments or whatever. And then inside my wallet, I'm going to be doing defy trades or whatever. And doesn't really have an interaction with names necessarily in order to do those transactions. But then if I want to, uh, you know, sign into a website or something, I could connect that with my NFT domain. >>And I do think that these two things are kind of separate. I think there's, we're gonna still early. So figuring out exactly how the industry is gonna shake out over like a five to 10 year time horizon. And it may be a little bit more difficult and we could see some other emerging, uh, what you would consider like cornerstones of the crypto ecosystem. But I do think identity and reputation is one of those. Uh, and I also think that your financial applications of defy are going to be another. So those are the two areas where I see it. Um, and just to, you know, a note on this, when you have a wallet, it usually has multiple cryptocurrency address. So you're going to have like 50 cryptocurrency addresses in a wallet. Uh, you're going to want to have one domain name that links back to all those, because you're just not going to remember those 50 different addresses. So that's how I think that they collaborate. And we collaborate with several large wallets as well, uh, like blockchain.com, uh, and you know, another 30 plus of these, uh, to make it easier for sending out and receiving cryptocurrency. >>So the wallet, basically as a D app, the way you look at it, you integrate whatever you want, just integrate in. How do I log into decentralized applications with my NFT domain name? Because this becomes okay, I got to love the idea, love my identity. I'm in my own NFT. I mean, hell, this video is going to be an NFT. Soon. We get on board with the program here. Uh, but I do, I log into my app, I'm going to have a D app and I got my domain name. Do I have to submit, is there benchmarking, is there approval process? Is there API APIs and a SDK kind of thinking around it? How do you thinking about dealing with the apps? >>Yeah, so all of the above and what we're trying to, what we're trying to do here is build like an SSO solution. Uh, but that it's consumer based. So, uh, what we've done is adapted some SSL protocols that other people have used the standard ones, uh, in order to connect that back to an NFT domain in this case. And that way you keep the best of both worlds. So you can use these authorization protocols for data permissioning that are standard web to API APIs. Uh, but then the permissioning system is actually based on the user controlled in FTE. So they're assigning that with their private public key pair order to make those updates. Um, so that, that allows you to connect into both of these systems. Uh, we think that that's how technology typically impacts the world is it's not like you have something that just replaces something overnight. >>You have an integration of these technologies over time. Uh, and we really see these three components in MTU domains integrating nicely into regular apps. So as an example in the future, when you log in right now, you see Google or Facebook, or you can type in an email address, you can see not ensemble domains or NFT, uh, authorization, and you can SSO in with that, to that website. When you go to a website like an e-commerce website, you could share information about yourself because you've connected your wallet now. So you could say, yes, I am a unique individual. I do live in New York, uh, and I just bought a new house. Right. And then when you permission all that information about yourself to that application, you can serve up a new user experience for you. Um, and we think it's going to be very interesting for doing rewards and discounts, um, online for e-commerce specifically, uh, in the future, because that opens up a whole new market because they can ask you questions about yourself and you can deliver that information. >>Yeah. I really think that the gaming market has totally nailed the future use case, which is in game currency in game to engagement in game data. And now bringing that, so kind of a horizontally scalable, like surface areas is huge, right? So, you know, I think you're, that's huge success on the concept. The question I have to ask you is, um, you getting any pushback from ICANN, the international corporates have name and numbers. They got dot everything now.club, cause the clubhouse, they got dot, you know, party.live. I mean, so the real domain name people are over here, web too. You guys are coming out with the web three where's that connect for people who are not following along the web three trend. How do they, how do you rationalize the, the domain angle here? >>Yeah, well, uh, so I would say that NFTE domains or what domains on DNS were always meant to be 30 plus years ago and they just didn't have blockchain systems back in the nineties when they were building these things. So there's no way to make them for individuals. So what happened was for DNS, it actually ended up being the business. So if you look at DNS names, there's about 350 million registrations. They're basically all small business. And it's like, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, uh, who, uh, own the majority of these, uh, these.com or these regular DNS domain names. And that's their focus NFTE domains because all of a sudden you have the, uh, the Walton, if you have them in your wallet and your crypto wallet, they're actually for individuals. So that market, instead of being for small businesses is actually end-users. So, and instead of being for, you know, 20 to 50 million small businesses, we're talking about being useful for three to 4 billion people who have an internet connection. >>Uh, and so we actually think that the market size we're in a few domains and somewhere 50 to 100 X, the market size for traditional domain names. And then the use cases are going to be much more for, uh, individuals on a day-to-day basis. So it's like people are gonna want you on to use them for receiving cryptocurrency versus receiving dollars or payments or USCC point where they're going to want to use them as identifiers on social networks, where they're going to want to use them for SSO. Uh, and they're not gonna want to use them as much for things like websites, which is what web is. And if I'm being perfectly honest, if I'm looking out 10 years from now, I think that these traditional domain name systems are gonna want to work with and adopt this new NFC technology. Cause they're going to want to have these features for the domain next. So like in short, I think NMT domain names or domain names with superpowers, this is the next generation of, uh, naming systems and naming systems were always meant to be identity networks. >>Yeah. They hit a car, they hit a glass ceiling. I mean, they just can't, they're not built for that. Right. So I mean, and, and having people, having their own names is essentially what decentralization is all about. Cause what does a company, it's a collection of humans that aren't working in one place they're decentralized. So, and then you decentralize the identity and everything's can been changed so completely love it. I think you guys are onto something really huge here. Um, you pretty much laid out what's next for web three, but you guys are in this state of, of growth. You've seen people signing up for names. That's great. What are the, what are the, um, best practices? What are the steps are people taking? What's the common, uh, use case for folks we're putting this to work right now for you guys? Why do you see what's the progression? >>Yeah. So the, the thing that we want to solve for people most immediately is, uh, we want to make it easier for sending and receiving crypto payments. And I, and I know that sounds like a niche market, but there's over 200 million people right now who have some form of cryptocurrency, right? And 99.9% of them are still sending crypto using these really long hex addresses. And that market is growing at 60 to a hundred percent year over year. So, uh, first we need to get crypto into everybody's pocket and that's going to happen over the next three to five years. Let's call it if it doubles every year for the next five years, we'll be there. Uh, and then we want to make it easier for all those people to sit encrypted back and forth. And I, and I will admit I'm a big fan of these stable coins and these like, you know, I would say utility focused, uh, tokens that are coming out just to make it easier for, you know, transferring money from here to Turkey and back or whatever. >>Uh, and that's the really the first step freight FTE domain names. But what happens is when you have an NFTE domain and that's what you're using to receive payments, um, and then you realize, oh, I can also use this to log into my favorite apps. It starts building that identity piece. And so we're also building products and services to make it more like your identity. And we think that it's going to build up over time. So instead of like doing an identity network, top-down where you're like a government or a corporation say, oh, you have to have ID. Here's your password. You have to have it. We're going to do a bottoms up. We're going to give everyone on the planet, NFTE domain name, it's going to give them to the utility to make it easier to send, receive cryptocurrency. They're going to say, Hey, do you want to verify your Twitter profile? Yes. Okay, great. You test that back. Hey, you want to verify your Reddit? Yes. Instagram. Yes. Tik TOK. Yes. You want to verify your driver's license? Okay. Yeah, we can attach that back. Uh, and then what happens is you end up building up organically, uh, digital identifiers for people using these blockchain, uh, naming systems. And once they have that, they're gonna just, they're going to be able to share that information. Uh, and that's gonna lead to better experiences online for, uh, both commerce, but also just better user experiences. >>You know, every company when they web came along, first of all, everyone, poo-pooed the web ones. That was terrible, bad idea. Oh. And so unreliable. So slow, hard to find things. Web two, everyone bought a domain name for their company, but then as they added webpages, these permalinks became so long. The web page address fully qualified, you know, permalink string, they bought keywords. And then that's another layer on top. So you started to see that evolution in the web. Now it's kind of hit a ceiling here. Everyone gets their NFT. They, they started doing more things. Then it becomes much more of a use case where it's more usable, not just for one thing. Um, so we saw that movie before, so it's like a permalink permanent. Yeah. >>Yes. I mean, if we're lucky, it will be a decentralized bottoms up global identity, uh, that appreciates user privacy and allows people to opt in. And that's what we want to build. >>And the gas prices thing that's always coming. That's always an objection here that, I mean, blockchain is perfect for this because it's immutable, it's written on the chain. All good, totally secure. What about the efficiency? How do you see that evolving real quick? >>Well, so a couple of comments on efficiency. Uh, first of all, we picked domains as a first product to market because, you know, as you need to take a look and see if the technology is capable of handling what you're trying to do, uh, and for domain names, you're not updating that every day. Right? So like, if you look at traditional domain names, you only update it a couple of times per year. So, so the usage for that to set this up and configure it, you know, most people set up and configure it and then it'll have a few changes for years. First of all, the overall it's not like a game problem. Right, right, right. So, so that, that part's good. We picked a good place to start for going to market. And then the second piece is like, you're really just asking our computer, system's going to get more efficient over time. >>And if you know, the history of that has always been yes. Uh, and you know, I remember the nineties, I had a modem and it was, you know, whatever, 14 kilobits and then it was 28 and then 56, then 100. And now I have a hundred megabits up and down. Uh, and I look at blockchain systems and I don't know if anyone has a law for this yet, but throughput of blockchains is going up over time. And you know, there's, there's going to be continued improvements over this over the next decade. We need them. We're going to use all of it. Uh, and you just need to make sure you're planning a business makes sense for the current environment. Just as an example, if you had tried to launch Netflix for online streaming in 1990, you would have had a bad time because no one had bandwidth. So yeah. Some applications are going to wait to be a little bit later on in the cycle, but I actually think identity is perfectly fine to go ahead and get off the ground now. >>Yeah. The motivated parties for innovations here, I mean, a point cast failed miserably that was like the, they try to stream video over T1 lines, but back in the days, nothing. So again, we've seen those speeds double, triple on homes right now, Matt. Congratulations. Great stuff. Final tick, tock moment here. How would you summarize short in a short clip? The difference between digital identity in web two and web three, >>Uh, in, in web too, you don't get to own your own online presidents and in web three, you do get to own it. So I think if you were gonna simplify it really web three is about ownership and we're excited to give everyone on the planet a chance to own their name and choose when and where and how they want to share information about themselves. >>So now users are in charge. >>Exactly. >>They're not the product anymore. Going to be the product might as well monetize the product. And that's the data. Um, real quick thoughts just to close out the role of data in all this, your view. >>We haven't enabled users to own their data online since the beginning of the internet. And we're now starting to do that. It's going to have profound changes for how every application on the planet interacts with >>Awesome stuff, man, I take a minute to give a plug for the company. How many employees you got? What do you guys looking for for hiring, um, fundraising, give a quick, a quick commercial for what's going on, on unstoppable domains. Yeah. >>So if you haven't already check us out@ensembledomains.com, we're also on Twitter at unstoppable web, and we have a wonderful podcast as well that you should check out if you haven't already. And, uh, we are just crossed a hundred people. We've, we're growing, you know, three to five, a hundred percent year over year. Uh, we're basically hiring every position across the company right now. So if you're interested in getting into web three, even if you're coming from a traditional web two background, please reach out. Uh, we love teaching people about this new world and how you can be a part of it. >>And you're a virtual company. Do you have a little headquarters or is it all virtual? What's the situation there? >>Yeah, I actually just assumed we were a hundred percent remote and asynchronous and we're currently in five countries across the planet. Uh, mostly concentrated in the U S and EU areas, >>Rumor to maybe you can confirm or admit or deny this rumor. I heard a rumor that you have mandatory vacation policy. >>Uh, this is true. Uh, and that's because we are a team of people who like to get things done. And, but we also know that recovery is an important part of any organizations. So if you push too hard, uh, we want to remind people we're on a marathon, right? This is not a sprint. Uh, and so we want people to be with us term. Uh, we do think that this is a ten-year move. And so yeah. Do force people. We'll unplug you at the end of the year, if you have >>To ask me, so what's the consequence of, I don't think vacation. >>Yeah. We literally unplug it. You won't be able to get it. You won't be able to get into slack. Right. And that's a, that's how we regulate. >>Well, when people start having their avatars be their bot and you don't even know what you're unplugging at some point, that's where you guys come in with the NFD saying that that's not the real person. It's not the real human And FTS. Great innovation, great use case, Matt. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing the story to kick off this showcase with the cube. Thanks for sharing all that great insight. Appreciate it. >>John had a wonderful time. All right. Just the >>Cube unstoppable domains showcasing. We got great 10 great pieces of content we're dropping all today. Check them out. Stay with us for more coverage on John furrier with cube. Thanks for watching.

>>and hello, we're back. I've got my panel and we are doing things real time here. So sorry for the delay a few minutes late. So the way let's talk about things, the reason we're here and we're going around the room and introduce everybody. Got three special guests here. I got my evil or my john and the normal And we're going to talk about get ops I called it future office just because I want to think about what's the next thing for that at the end, we're gonna talk about what our ideas for what's next for getups, right? Um, because we're all starting to just get into get ups now. But of course a lot of us are always thinking about what's next? What's better? How can we make this thing better? So we're going to take your questions. That's the reason we're here, is to take your questions and answer them. Or at least the best we can for the next hour. And all right, so let's go around the room and introduce yourself. My name is Brett. I am streaming from Brett from that. From Brett. From Virginia Beach in Virginia beach, Virginia, United States. Um, and I talk about things on the internet, I sell courses on you, to me that talk about Docker and kubernetes Ive or introduce yourself. >>How's it going? Everyone, I'm a software engineer at axel Springer, currently based in Berlin and I happen to be Brett Brett's teaching assistant. >>All right, that's right. We're in, we're in our courses together almost every day. Mm john >>hey everyone, my name is john Harris, I used to work at Dhaka um, I now work at VM ware is a star field engineer. Um, so yeah, >>and normal >>awesome by the way, you are streaming from Brett Brett, >>I answered from breath to breath. >>Um I'm normal method. I'm a distinguished engineer with booz allen and I'm also a doctor captain and it's good to see either in person and it's good to see you again john it's been a little while. >>It has the pre covid times, right? You're up here in Seattle. >>Yeah. It feels, it feels like an eternity ago. >>Yeah, john shirt looks red and reminds me of the Austin T shirt. So I was like, yeah, so we all, we all have like this old limited edition doctor on E. >>T. That's a, that's a classic. >>Yeah, I scored that one last year. Sometimes with these old conference church, you have to like go into people's closets. I'm not saying I did that. Um, but you know, you have to go steal stuff, you to find ways to get the swag >>post post covid. If you ever come to my place, I'm going to have to lock the closets. That >>that's right, That's right. >>So the second I think it was the second floor of the doctor HQ in SAn Francisco was where they kept all the T shirts, just boxes and boxes and boxes floor to ceiling. So every time I went to HQ you just you just as many as you can fit in your luggage. I think I have about 10 of these. You >>bring an extra piece of luggage just for your your shirt shirt grab. Um All right, so I'm going to start scanning questions uh so that you don't have to you can you help you all are welcome to do that. And I'm going to start us off with the topic. Um So let's just define the parameters. Like we can talk about anything devops and here we can go down and plenty of rabbit holes. But the kind of, the goal here is to talk about get ups and get ups if you haven't heard about it is essentially uh using versioning systems like get like we've all been getting used to as developers to track your infrastructure changes, not just your code changes and then automate that with a bunch of tooling so that the robots take over. And essentially you have get as a central source of truth and then get log as a central source of history and then there's a bunch of magic little bits in the middle and then supposedly everything is wonderful. It's all automatic. The reality is is what it's often quite messy, quite tricky to get everything working. And uh the edges of this are not perfect. Um so it is a relatively new thing. It's probably three, maybe four years old as an official thing from. We've uh so we're gonna get into it and I'll let's go around the room and the same word we did before and um not to push on that, put you on the spot or anything. But what is, what is one of the things you either like or either hate about getups um that you've enjoyed either using it or you know, whatever for me. I really, I really love that I can point people to a repo that basically is hopefully if they look at the log a tracking, simplistic tracking of what might have changed in that part of the world or the environment. I remember many years past where, you know, I've had executive or some mid level manager wants to see what the changes were or someone outside my team went to see what we just changed. It was okay, they need access to this system into that dashboard and that spreadsheet and then this thing and it was always so complicated and now in a world where if we're using get up orbit bucket or whatever where you can just say, hey go look at that repo if there was three commits today, probably three changes happened. That's I love that particular part about it. Of course it's always more complicated than that. But um Ive or I know you've been getting into this stuff recently. So um any thoughts? Yeah, I think >>my favorite part about get ops is >>reproducibility. Um >>you know the ability to just test something and get it up and running >>and then just tear it down. >>Uh not >>being worried that how did I configure it the first time? I think that's my favorite part about >>it. I'm changing your background as we do this. >>I was going to say, did you just do it get ups pushed to like change his >>background, just a dialogue that different for that green screen equals false? Uh Change the background. Yeah, I mean, um and I mean I think last year was really my first year of actually using it on anything significant, like a real project. Um so I'm still, I still feel like I'm very new to john you anything. >>Yeah, it's weird getups is that thing which kind of crystallizes maybe better than anything else, the grizzled veteran life cycle of emotions with the technology because I think it's easy to get super excited about something new. And when I first looked into get up, so I think this is even before it was probably called getups, we were looking at like how to use guest source of truth, like everything sounds great, right? You're like, wait, get everyone knows, get gets the source of truth, There's a load of robust tooling. This just makes a sense. If everything dies, we can just apply the get again, that would be great. Um and then you go through like the trough of despair, right? We're like, oh no, none of this works. The application is super stateless if this doesn't work and what do we do with secrets and how do we do this? Like how do we get people access in the right place and then you realize everything is terrible again and then everything it equalizes and you're kind of, I think, you know, it sounds great on paper and they were absolutely fantastic things about it, but I think just having that measured approach to it, like it's, you know, I think when you put it best in the beginning where you do a and then there's a magic and then you get C. Right, like it's the magic, which is >>the magic is the mystery, >>right? >>Magic can be good and bad and in text so >>very much so yeah, so um concurrence with with john and ever uh in terms of what I like about it is the potential to apply it to moving security to left and getting closer to a more stable infrastructures code with respect to the whole entire environment. Um And uh and that reconciliation loop, it reminds me of what, what is old is new again? Right? Well, quote unquote old um in terms of like chef and puppet and that the reconciliation loop applied in a in a more uh in a cleaner interface and and into the infrastructure that we're kind of used to already, once you start really digging into kubernetes what I don't like and just this is in concurrence with the other Panelist is it's relatively new. It has um, so it has a learning curve and it's still being, you know, it's a very active um environment and community and that means that things are changing and constantly and there's like new ways and new patterns as people are exploring how to use it. And I think that trough of despair is typically figuring out incrementally what it actually is doing for you and what it's not going to solve for you, right, john, so like that's that trough of despair for a bit and then you realize, okay, this is where it fits potentially in my architecture and like anything, you have to make that trade off and you have to make that decision and accept the trade offs for that. But I think it has a lot of promise for, for compliance and security and all that good stuff. >>Yeah. It's like it's like the potentials, there's still a lot more potential than there is uh reality right now. I think it's like I feel like we're very early days and the idea of especially when you start getting into tooling that doesn't appreciate getups like you're using to get up to and use something else and that tool has no awareness of the concept so it doesn't flow well with all of the things you're trying to do and get um uh things that aren't state based and all that. So this is going to lead me to our first question from Camden asking dumb questions by the way. No dumb questions here. Um How is get apps? Not just another name for C. D. Anybody want to take that as an answer as a question. How is get up is not just another name for C. D. I have things but we can talk about it. I >>feel like we need victor foster kids. Yeah, sure you would have opinions. Yeah, >>I think it's a very yeah. One person replied said it's a very specific it's an opinionated version of cd. That's a great that's a great answer like that. Yeah. >>It's like an implement. Its it's an implementation of deployment if you want it if you want to use it for that. All right. I realize now it's kind of hard in terms of a physical panel and a virtual panel to figure out who on the panel is gonna, you know, ready to jump in to answer a question. But I'll take it. So um I'll um I'll do my best inner victor and say, you know, it's it's an implementation of C. D. And it's it's a choice right? It's one can just still do docker build and darker pushes and doctor pulls and that's fine. Or use other technologies to deploy containers and pods and change your, your kubernetes infrastructure. But get apps is a different implementation, a different method of doing that same thing at the end of the day. Yeah, >>I like it. I like >>it and I think that goes back to your point about, you know, it's kind of early days still, I think to me what I like about getups in that respect is it's nice to see kubernetes become a platform where people are experimenting with different ways of doing things, right? And so I think that encourages like lots of different patterns and overall that's going to be a good thing for the community because then more, you know, and not everything needs to settle in terms of only one way of doing things, but a lot of different ways of doing things helps people fit, you know, the tooling to their needs, or helps fit kubernetes to their needs, etcetera. Yeah, >>um I agree with that, the, so I'm gonna, since we're getting a load of good questions, so um one of the, one of the, one of the, I want to add to that real quick that one of the uh from the, we've people themselves, because I've had some on the show and one of things that I look at it is distinguishing is with continuous deployment tools, I sort of think that it's almost like previous generation and uh continuous deployment tools can be anything like we would consider Jenkins cd, right, if you if you had an association to a server and do a doctor pull and you know, dr up or dr composed up rather, or if it did a cube control apply uh from you know inside an ssh tunnel or something like that was considered considered C. D. Well get ops is much more rigid I think in terms of um you you need to apply, you have a specific repo that's all about your deployments and because of what tool you're using and that one your commit to a specific repo or in a specific branch that repo depends on how you're setting it up. That is what kicks off a workflow. And then secondly there's an understanding of state. So a lot of these tools now I have uh reconciliation where they they look at the cluster and if things are changing they will actually go back and to get and the robots will take over and will commit that. Hey this thing has changed um and you maybe you human didn't change it, something else might have changed it. So I think that's where getups is approaching it, is that ah we we need to we need to consider more than just a couple of commands that be runnin in a script. Like there needs to be more than that for a getups repo to happen anyway, that's just kind of the the take back to take away I took from a previous conversation with some people um >>we've I don't think that lost, its the last piece is really important, right? I think like for me, C d like Ci cd, they're more philosophical ideas, write a set of principles, right? Like getting an idea or a code change to environments promoting it. It's very kind of pipeline driven um and it's very imperative driven, right? Like our existing CD tools are a lot of the ways that people think about Cd, it would be triggered by an event, maybe a code push and then these other things are happening in sequence until they either fail or pass, right? And then we're done. Getups is very much sitting on the, you know, the reconciliation side, it's changing to a pull based model of reconciliation, right? Like it's very declarative, it's just looking at the state and it's automatically pulling changes when they happen, rather than this imperative trigger driven model. That's not to say that there aren't city tools which we're doing pull based or you can do pull based or get ups is doing anything creatively revolutionary here, but I think that's one of the main things that the ideas that are being introduced into those, like existing C kind of tools and pipelines, um certainly the pull based model and the reconciliation model, which, you know, has a lot in common with kubernetes and how those kind of controllers work, but I think that's the key idea. Yeah. >>Um This is a pretty specific one Tory asks, does anyone have opinions about get ops in a mono repo this is like this is getting into religion a little bit. How many repos are too many repose? How um any thoughts on that? Anyone before I rant, >>go >>for it, go for it? >>Yeah. How I'm using it right now in a monitor repo uh So I'm using GIT hub. Right, so you have what? The workflow and then inside a workflow? Yeah, mo file, I'll >>track the >>actual changes to the workflow itself, as well as a folder, which is basically some sort of service in Amman Arepa, so if any of those things changes, it'll trigger the actual pipeline to run. So that's like the simplest thing that I could figure out how to, you know, get it set up using um get hubs, uh workflow path future. Yeah. And it's worked for me for writing, you know? That's Yeah. >>Yeah, the a lot of these things too, like the mono repo discussion will, it's very tool specific. Each tool has various levels of support for branch branching and different repos and subdirectories are are looking at the defense and to see if there's changes in that specific directory. Yeah. Sorry, um john you're going to say something, >>I was just going to say, I've never really done it, but I imagine the same kind of downsides of mono repo to multiple report would exist there. I mean, you've got the blast radius issues, you've got, you know, how big is the mono repo? Do we have to pull does the tool have to pull that or cashier every time it needs to determine def so what is the support for being able to just look at directories versus you know, I think we can get way down into a deeper conversation. Maybe we'll save it for later on in the conversation about what we're doing. Get up, how do we structure our get reposed? We have super granular repo per environment, Perper out reaper, per cluster repo per whatever or do we have directories per environment or branches per environment? How how is everything organized? I think it's you know, it's going to be one of those, there's never one size fits all. I'll give the class of consultant like it depends answer. Right? >>Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to the code struggle because it depends. >>Right? >>Uh Yeah, it's similar to the to the code problem of teams trying to figure out how many repose for their code. Should they micro service, should they? Semi micro service, macro service. Like I mean, you know because too many repose means you're doing a bunch of repo management, a bunch of changes on your local system, you're constantly get pulling all these different things and uh but if you have one big repo then it's it's a it's a huge monolithic thing that you usually have to deal with. Path based issues of tools that only need to look at a specific directory and um yeah, it's a it's a culture, I feel like yeah, like I keep going back to this, it's a culture thing. Does your what is your team prefer? What do you like? What um what's painful for everyone and who's what's the loudest pain that you need to deal with? Is it is it repo management? That's the pain um or is it uh you know, is that that everyone's in one place and it's really hard to keep too many cooks out of the kitchen, which is a mono repo problem, you know? Um How do we handle security? So this is a great one from Tory again. Another great question back to back. And that's the first time we've done that um security as it pertains to get up to anyone who can commit can change the infrastructure. Yes. >>Yes. So the tooling that you have for your GIT repo and the authentication, authorization and permissions that you apply to the GIT repo using a get server like GIT hub or get lab or whatever your flavor of the day is is going to be how security is handled with respect to changes in your get ups configuration repository. So um that is completely specific to your implementation of that or ones implementation of of how they're handling that. Get repositories that the get ups tooling is looking at. To reconcile changes with respect to the permissions of the for lack of better term robot itself. Right? They get up tooling like flux or Argosy. D Um one kid would would create a user or a service account or uh other kind of authentication measures to limit the permissions for that service account that the Gaddafi's tooling needs to be able to read the repose and and send commits etcetera. So that is well within the realm of what you have already for your for your get your get um repo. Yeah. >>Yeah. A related question is from a g what they like about get apps if done nicely for a newbie it's you can get stuff done easily if you what they dislike about it is when you have too many get repose it becomes just too complicated and I agree. Um was making a joke with a team the other week that you know the developer used to just make one commit and they would pass pass it on to a QA team that would then eventually emerging in the master. But they made the commits to these feature branches or whatever. But now they make a commit, they make a pR there for their code then they go make a PR in the helm chart to update the thing to do that and then they go make a PR in the get ups repeal for Argo. And so we talked about that they're probably like four or five P. R. Is just to get their code in the production. But we were talking about the negative of that but the reality was It's just five or 4 or five prs like it wasn't five different systems that had five different methodologies and tooling and that. So I looked at it I was like well yeah that's kind of a pain in the get sense but you're also dealing with one type. It's a repetitive action but it's it's the one thing I don't have to go to five different systems with five different ways of doing it. And once in the web and one's on the client wants a command line that I don't remember. Um Yeah so it's got pros and cons I think when you >>I think when you get to the scale where those kind of issues are a problem then you're probably at the scale where you can afford to invest some time into automation into that. Right? Like what I've when I've seen this in larger customers or larger organizations if there ever at that stage where okay apps are coming up all the time. You know, there's a 10 X 100 X developer to operations folks who may be creating get repose setting up permissions then that stuff gets automated, right? Like, you know, maybe ticket based systems or whatever. Developers say I need a new app. It templates things or more often using the same model, right of reconciliation and operators and the horrific abuse of cogs that we're seeing in the communities community right now. Um You know, developers can create a crd which just says, hey, I'm creating a new app is called app A and then a controller will pick up that app a definition. It will go create a get a repo Programmatically it will add the right definitely will look up and held up the developers and the permissions that need to be able to get to that repo it will create and template automatically some name space and the clusters that it needs in the environments that it needs, depending on, you know, some metadata it might read. So I think, you know, those are definite problems and they're definitely like a teething, growing pain thing. But once you get to that scale, you kind of need to step back and say, well look, we just need to invest in time into the operational aspect of this and automating this pain away, I think. Yeah, >>yeah. And that ultimately ends in Yeah. Custom tooling, which it's hard to avoid it at scale. I mean, there's there's two, there's almost two conversations here, right. There is what I call the Solo admin Solo devops, I bought that domain Solo devops dot com because, you know, whenever I'm talking to dr khan in the real world, it's like I asked people to raise hands, I don't know how we can raise hands here, but I would ask people to raise hands and see how many of you here are. The sole person responsible for deploying the app that your team makes and like a quarter of the room would raise their hand. So I call that solo devops like those, that person can't make all the custom tooling in the world. So they really need dr like solutions where it's opinionated, the workflow is sort of built in and they don't have to wrangle things together with a bunch of glue, you know, in other words bash. Um and so this kind of comes to a conversation uh starting this question from lee he's asking how do you combine get ops with ci cd, especially the continuous bit. How do you avoid having a human uh sort of the complaint the team I was working with has, how do you avoid a human editing and get committing for every single deploy? They've settled on customized templates and a script for routine updates. So as a seed for this conference, this question I'm gonna ask you all uh instead of that specific question cause it's a little open ended. Um Tell me whether you agree with this. I I kind of look at the image, the image artifact because the doctor image or container image in general is an artifact that I I view it that way and that thing going into the registry with the right label or right part of the label. Um That tag rather not the label but the tag that to me is like one of the great demarche points of, we're kind of done with Ci and we're now into the deployment phase and it doesn't necessarily mean the tooling is a clear cut there, but that artifact being shipped in a specific way or promoted as we sometimes say. Um what do you think? Does anyone have opinions on that? I don't even know if that's the right opinion to have so mhm. >>So um I think what you're, what you're getting at is that get ups, models can trigger off of different events um to trigger the reconciliation loop. And one way to do that is if the image, if it notices a image change in the registry, the other is if there's a commit event on a specific rebo and branch and it's up to, you are up to the person that's implementing their get ups model, what event to trigger there, that reconciliation loop off of, You can do both, you can do one or the other. It also depends on the Templeton engine that you're using on top of um on top of kubernetes, such as helm or um you know, the other ones that are out there or if you're not even doing that, then, you know straight. Yeah, mo um so it kind of just depends, but those are the typically the two options one has and a combination of of those to trigger that event. You can also just trigger it manually, right? You can go into the command line and force a a, you know, a really like a scan or a new reconciliation loop to occur. So it kind of just, I don't want to say this, but it depends on what you're trying to do and what makes sense in your pipeline. Right? So if you're if you're set up where you are tag, if you're doing it based off of image tags, then you probably want to use get ups in a way that you're using the image tags. Right. And the pattern that you've established there, if you're not really doing that and you're more around, like, different branches are mapped to different environments, then triggered off of the correct branch. And that's where the permissions also come into play. Where if you don't want someone to touch production and you've got your getups for your production cluster based off of like uh you know, a main branch, then whoever can push a change to that main branch has the authority to push that change to production. Right? So that's your authentication and permissions um system same for the registry itself. Right. So >>Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, anyone else have any thoughts on that? I was about to go to the next topic, >>I was going to say. I think certain tools dictate the approach, like, if you're using Argosy d it's I think I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only way to use it right now is just through image modification. Like, the manifest changes, it looks at a specific directory and anything changes then it will do its thing. And uh Synchronize the cost there with whatever's and get >>Yeah, flux has both. Yeah, and flux has both. So it it kind of depends. I think you can make our go do that too, but uh this is back to what we were saying in the beginning, uh you know, these things are changing, right? So that might be what it is right now in terms of triggering the reconciliation loops and get ups, tooling, but there might be other events in the future that might trigger it, and it's not completely stand alone because you still need you're tooling to do any kind of testing or whatever you have in terms of like the specific pipeline. So oftentimes you're bolting in getups into some other part of broader Cfd solution. That makes sense. Yeah, >>we've got a lot of questions about secrets or people that are asking about secrets. >>So my my tongue and cheek answered the secrets question was, what's the best practices for kubernetes? Secrets? That's the same thing for secrets with good apps? Uh getups is not last time I checked and last time I was running this stuff get ups is not has nothing to do with secrets in that sense. It's just there to get your stuff running on communities. So, um there's probably a really good session on secrets at dr concept. I >>would agree with you, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, get off stools, I mean every every project of mine handles secrets differently. Uh huh. And I think I'm not sure if it was even when I was talking to but talking to someone recently that I'm very bullish on get up actions, I love get up actions, it's not great for deployments yet, but we do have this new thing and get hub environments, I think it's called. So it allows me at least the store secrets per environment, which it didn't have the concept of that before, which you know, if you if any of you running kubernetes out there, you typically end up when you start running kubernetes, you end up with more than one kubernetes, like you're going to end up with a lot of clusters at some point, at least many multiple, more than two. Um and so if you're trying to store secret somewhere, you do have and there's a discussion happening in chat right now where people are talking about um sealed secrets which if you haven't heard of that, go look that up and just be versed on what sealed secrets is because it's a it's a fantastic concept for how to store secrets in the public. Um I love it because I'm a big P. K. I nerd but um it's not the only way and it doesn't fit all models. So I have clients that use A W. S. Secrets because they're in A W. S. And then they just have to use the kubernetes external secret. But again like like like normal sand, you know, it's that doesn't really affect get ops, get ops is just applying whatever helm charts or jahmal or images that you're, you're you're deploying, get off. It was more about the approach of when the changes happen and whether it's a push or pull model like we're talking about and you know, >>I would say there's a bunch of prerequisites to get ups secrets being one of them because the risk of you putting a secret into your git repo if you haven't figured out your community secrets architecture and start diving into getups is high and removing secrets from get repose is you know, could be its own industry, right. It's >>a thing, >>how do >>I hide this? How do I obscure this commit that's already now on a dozen machines. >>So there are some prerequisites in terms of when you're ready to adopt get up. So I think is the right way of saying the answer to that secrets being one of them. >>I think the secrets was the thing that made me, you know, like two or three years ago made me kind of see the ah ha moment when it came to get ups which, which was that the premier thing that everyone used to say about get up about why it was great. Was its the single source of truth. There's no state anywhere else. You just need to look at git. Um and then secrets may be realized along with a bunch of other things down the line that is not true and will never be true. So as soon as you can lose the dogmatism about everything is going to be and get it's fantastic. As long as you've understood everything is not going to get. There are things which will absolutely never be and get some tools just don't deal with that. They need to earn their own state, especially in communities, some controls on their own state. You know, cuz sealed secrets and and other projects like SOps and I think there are two or three others. That's a great way of dealing with secrets if you want to keep them in get. But you know, projects like vault more kind of like what I would say, production grade secret strategies. Right? And if you're in AWS or a cloud, you're more likely to be using their secrets. Your secret policy is maybe not dictated by you in large organizations might be dictated by CSO or security or Great. Like I think once if you, if you're trying to adopt getups or you're thinking about it, get the dogmatism of get as a single point of truth out of your mind and think about getups more as a philosophy and a set of best practice principles, then you will be in much better stead, >>right? Yeah. >>People are asking more questions in chat like infrastructure as code plus C d essentially get ups or C I rather, um, these are all great questions and a part of the debate, I'm actually just going to throw up on screen. I'm gonna put this in chat, but this is, this is to me the source, Right? So we worked with when they coined the term. We, a lot of us have been trying to get, if we talk about the history for a minute and then tell me if I'm getting this right. Um, a lot of us were trying to automate all these different parts of the puzzle, but a lot of them, they, some things might have been infrastructure as code. Some things weren't, some things were sort of like settings is coded, like you're going to Jenkins and type in secrets and settings or type in a certain thing in the settings of Jenkins and then that it wasn't really in get and so what we was trying to go for was a way to have almost like eventually a two way state understanding where get might change your infrastructure but then your infrastructure might also change and needs to be reflected in the get if the get is trying to be the single source of truth. Um and like you're saying the reality is that you're never gonna have one repo that has all of your infrastructure in it, like you would have to have, you have to have all your terra form, anything else you're spinning up. Right. Um but anyway, I'm gonna put this link in chat. So this guide actually, uh one of things they talk about is what it's not, so it's, it's kind of great to read through the different requirements and like what I was saying well ago um mhm. Having having ci having infrastructure as code and then trying a little bit of continuous deployment out, it's probably a prerequisite. Forget ops so it's hard to just jump into that when you don't already have infrastructure as code because a machine doing stuff on your behalf, it means that you have to have things documented and somewhere and get repo but let me put this in the in the >>chitty chat, I would like to know if the other panelists agree, but I think get apps is a okay. I would say it's a moderate level, it's not a beginner level communities thing, it's like a moderate level advanced, a little bit more advanced level. Um One can start off using it but you definitely have to have some pre recs in place or some understanding of like a pattern in place. Um So what do the other folks think about that opinion? >>I think if you're if you're trying to use get out before, you know what problem you have, you're probably gonna be in trouble. Right. It's like having a solution to it probably don't have yet. Mhm. Right. I mean if if you're just evil or and you're just typing, keep control apply, you're one person right, Get off. It doesn't seem like a big a big jump, like, I mean it doesn't like why would I do that? I'm just, I'm just gonna inside, it's the type of get commit right, I'm typing Q control apply. But I think one of the rules from we've is none of your developers and none of your admins can have cute control access to the cluster because if you can't, if you do have access and you can just apply something, then that's just infrastructure as code. That's just continuous deployment, that's, that's not really get ops um, getups implies that the only way things get into the cluster is through the get up, get automation that you're using with, you know, flux Argo, we haven't talked about, what's the other one that Victor Farsi talks about, by the way people are asking about victor, because victor would love to talk about this stuff, but he's in my next life, so come back in an hour and a half or whatever and victor is going to be talking about sys, admin list with me. Um >>you gotta ask him nothing but get up questions in the next, >>confuse them, confuse them. But anyway, that, that, that's um, it's hard, it's hard to understand and without having tried it, I think conceptually it's a little challenging >>one thing with getups, especially based off the we've works blog post that you just put up on there. It's an opinionated way of doing something. Uh you know, it's an opinionated way of of delivering changes to an environment to your kubernetes environment. So it's opinionated were often not used to seeing things that are very opinionated in this sense, in the in the ecosystem, but get apps is a opinionated thing. It's it's one way of doing it. Um there are ways to change it and like there are options um like what we were talking about in terms of the events that trigger, but the way that it's structured is an opinion opinionated way both from like a tooling perspective, like using get etcetera, but also from a devops cultural perspective, right? Like you were talking about not having anyone access cube control and changing the cluster directly. That's a philosophical opinion that get ups forces you to adopt otherwise. It kind of breaks the model and um I just I want everyone to just understand that. That is very opinion, anything in that sense. Yeah, >>polygamy is another thing. Infrastructure as code. Um someone's mentioning plummy and chat, I just had actually my life show self plug bread that live go there. I'm on Youtube every week. I did the same thing. These these are my friends um and had palami on two weeks ago uh last week, remember uh and it was in the last couple of weeks and we talked about their infrastructure as code solution. Were actually writing code instead of um oh that's an interesting take on uh developer team sort of owning coding the infrastructure through code rather than Yamil as a data language. I don't really have an opinion on it yet because I haven't used it in production or anything in the real real world, but um, I'm not sure how much they are applying trying to go towards the get up stuff. I will do a plug for Solomon hikes. Who has a, the beginning of the day, it's already happened so you can go back and watch it. It's a, it's a, what's it called? Q. Rethinking application delivery with Q. And build kit. So go look this up. This is the found co founder of Dr and former CTO Solomon hikes at the beginning of the day. He has a tool called dagger. I'm not sure why the title of the talk is delivering with Q. And built it, but the tool is showing off in there for an hour is called dagger. And it's, it's an interesting idea on how to apply a lot of this opinionated automated stuff to uh, to deployment and it's get off space and you use Q language. It's a graph language. I watched most of it and it was a really interesting take. I'm excited to see if that takes off and if they try that because it's another way that you can get a little bit more advanced with your you're get deployments and without having to just stick everything in Yemen, which is kind of what we're in today with helm charts and what not. All right. More questions about secrets, I think. I think we're not going to have a whole lot of more, a lot more about secrets basically. Uh put secrets in your cluster to start with and kubernetes in encrypted, you know, thing. And then, you know, as it gets harder, then you have to find another solution when you have five clusters, you don't wanna have to do it five times. That's when you have to go for Walton A W. S secrets and all >>that. Right? I'm gonna post it note. Yeah. Crm into the cluster. Just kidding. >>Yes, there are recordings of this. Yes, they will be later. Uh, because we're that these are all gonna be on youtube later. Um, yeah, detects secrets cushion saying detect secrets or get Guardian are absolute requirements. I think it's in reference to your secrets comment earlier. Um, Camels asking about Cuban is dropping support for Docker that this is not the place to ask for that, but it, it is uh, basically it's a Nonevent Marantz has actually just created that same plug in available in a different repos. So if you want to keep using Docker and kubernetes, you know, you can do it like it's no big deal. Most of us aren't using doctor in our communities anyway, so we're using like container D or whatever is provided to us by our provider. Um yeah, thank you so much for all these comments. These are great people helping each other and chat. I feel like we're just here to make sure the chats available so people can help each other. >>I feel like I want to pick up on something when you mentioned pollux me, I think there's a um we're talking about getups but I think in the original like the origination of that I guess was deploying applications to clusters right, picking up deployment manifest. But I think with the gloomy and I obviously terra form and things have been around a long time, folks are starting to apply this I think I found one earlier which was like um kub stack the Terror Forms get ups framework. Um but also with the advent of things like cluster A. P. I. Um in the Cuban at the space where you can declare actively build the infrastructure for your clusters and build the cluster right? We're not just talking about deploying applications, the cluster A. P. I will talk to a W. S. Spin up, VPc spin up machines, you know, we'll do the same kind of things that terra form does and and those other tools do I think applying getups principles to the infrastructure spin up right, the proper infrastructure as code stuff, constantly applying Terror form um you know, plans and whatever, constantly applying cluster Api resources spinning up stuff in those clouds. That's a super interesting. Um you know, extension of this area, I'd be curious to see if what the folks think about that. >>Yeah, that's why I picked this topic is one of my three. Uh I got I got to pick the topics. I was like the three things that there like the most bleeding edge exciting. Most people haven't, we haven't basically we haven't figured all this out yet. We as an industry, so um it's I think we're gonna see more ideas on it. Um what's the one with the popsicle as the as the icon victor talks about all the time? It's not it's another getups like tool, but it's um it's getups for you use this kubernetes limit and then we have to look it up, >>You're talking about cross plane. >>So >>my >>wife is over here with the sound effects and the first sound effect of the day that she chooses to use is one. >>All right, can we pick it? Let's let's find another question bret >>I'm searching >>so many of them. All right, so uh I think one really quick one is getups only for kubernetes, I think the main to tooling to tools that we're talking about, our Argosy D and flux and they're mostly geared toward kubernetes deployments but there's a, it seems like they're organized in a way that there's a clean abstraction in with respect to the agent that's doing the deployment and the tooling that that can interact with. So I would imagine that in the future and this might be true already right now that get ups could be applied to other types of deployments at some point in the future. But right now it's mostly focused and treats kubernetes as a first class citizen or the tooling on top of kubernetes, let's say something like how as a first class citizen? Yeah, to Brett, >>to me the field, back to you bret the thing I was looking for is cross plane. So that's another tool. Um Victor has been uh sharing a lot about it in Youtube cross plane and that is basically runs inside a kubernetes, but it handles your other infrastructure besides your app. It allows you to like get ops, you're a W. S stuff by using the kubernetes state engine as a, as a way to manage that. And I have not used it yet, but he does some really great demos on Youtube. So people are liking this idea of get off, so they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage state? How do we uh because the probably terra form is that, well, there's many problems, but it's always a lot of problems, but in the get outs world it's not quite the right fit yet, It might be, but you still, it's still largely as expected for people to, you know, like type the command, um, and it keeps state locally the ss, clouds and all that. And but the other thing is I'm I'm now realizing that when I saw the demo from Solomon, I'm going back to the Solomon hikes thing. He was using the demo and he was showing it apply deploying something on S three buckets, employing internet wifi and deploying it on google other things beyond kubernetes and saying that it's all getups approach. So I think we're just at the very beginning of seeing because it all started with kubernetes and now there's a swarm one, you can look up swarm, get office and there's a swarm, I can't take the name of it. Swarm sink I think is what's called swarm sink on git hub, which allows you to do swarm based getups like things. And now we're seeing these other tools coming out. They're saying we're going to try to do the get ups concepts, but not for kubernetes specifically and that's I think, you know, infrastructure as code started with certain areas of the world and then now then now we all just assume that you're going to have an infrastructure as code way of doing whatever that is and I think get off is going to have that same approach where pretty soon, you know, we'll have get apps for all the clouds stuff and it won't just be flexor Argo. And then that's the weird thing is will flex and Argo support all those things or will it just be focused on kubernetes apps? You know, community stuff? >>There's also, I think this is what you're alluding to. There is a trend of using um kubernetes and see rDS to provision and control things that are outside of communities like the cloud service providers services as if they were first class entities within kubernetes so that you can use the kubernetes um focus tooling for things that are not communities through the kubernetes interface communities. Yeah, >>yeah, even criticism. >>Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to say that sounds like cross plane. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that's uh there were, you know, for the last couple of years, it's been flux and are going back and forth. Um they're like frenemies, you know, and they've been going back and forth with iterating on these ideas of how do we manage this complicated thing? That is many kubernetes clusters? Um because like Argo, I don't know if the flux V two can do this, but Argo can manage multiple clusters now from one cluster, so your, you can manage other clusters, technically external things from a single entity. Um Originally flux couldn't do that, but I'm going to say that V two can, I don't actually >>know. Um I think all that is gonna, I think that's going to consolidate in the future. All right. In terms of like the common feature set, what Iver and john what do you think? >>I mean, I think it's already begun, right, I think haven't, didn't they collaborate on a common engine? I don't know whether it's finished yet, but I think they're working towards a common getups engine and then they're just going to layer on features on top. But I think, I mean, I think that's interesting, right, because where it runs and where it interacts with, if we're talking about a pull based model, it shouldn't, it's decentralized to a certain extent, right? We need get and we need the agent which is pulling if we're saying there's something else which is orchestrating something that we start to like fuzzy the model even right. Like is this state living somewhere else, then I think that's just interesting as well. I thought flux was completely decentralized, but I know you install our go somewhere like the cargo has a server as well, but it's been a while since I've looked in depth at them. But I think the, you know, does that muddy the agent only pull model? >>I'm reading a >>Yeah, I would say that there's like a process of natural selection going on as as the C. N. C. F. Landscape evolves and grows bigger and a lot of divide and conquer right now. But I think as certain things kind of get more prominent >>and popular, I think >>it starts to trend and it inspires other things and then it starts to aggregate and you know, kind of get back into like a unified kind of like core. Maybe like for instance, cross plane, I feel like it shouldn't even really exist. It should be, it like it's a communities add on, but it should be built in, it should be built into kubernetes, like why doesn't this exist already >>for like controlling a cloud? >>Yeah, like just, you know, having this interface with the cloud provider and be able to Yeah, >>exactly. Yeah, and it kinda, you're right. That kinda happens because you do, I mean when you start talking about storage providers and networking providers was very specific implementations of operators or just individual controllers that do operate and control other resources in the cloud, but certainly not universally right. Not every feature of AWS is available to kubernetes out of the box. Um and you know, it, one of the challenges across plane is you gotta have kubernetes before you can deploy kubernetes. Like there's a chicken and egg issue there where if you're going to use, if you're going to use our cross plane for your other infrastructure, but it's gotta, but it has to run on kubernetes who creates that first kubernetes in order for you to put that on there. And victor talks about one of his videos, the same problem with flux and Argo where like Argo, you can't deploy Argo itself with getups. There has to be that initial, I did a thing with, I'm a human and I typed in some commands on a server and things happened but they don't really have an easy deployment method for getting our go up and running using simply nothing but a get push to an existing system. There's something like that. So it's a it's an interesting problem of day one infrastructure which is again only day one, I think data is way more interesting and hard, but um how can we spend these things up if they're all depending on each other and who is the first one to get started? >>I mean it's true of everything though, I mean at the end of that you need some kind of big bang kind of function too, you know, I started running start everything I >>think without going over that, sorry, without going off on a tangent. I was, I was gonna say there's a, if folks have heard of kind which is kubernetes and Docker, which is a mini kubernetes cluster, you can run in a Docker container or each container will run as a as a node. Um you know, that's been a really good way to spin up things like clusters. KPI because they boot strap a local kind, install the manifests, it will go and spin up a fully sized cluster, it will transfer its resources over there and then it will die itself. Right? So that, that's kind of bootstrapping itself. And I think a couple of folks in the community, Jason to Tiberius, I think he works for Quinyx metal um has, has experimented with like an even more minimal just Api server, so we're really just leveraging the kubernetes ideas of like a reconciliation loop and a controller. We just need something to bootstrap with those C R D s and get something going and then go away again. So I think that's gonna be a pattern that comes up kind of more and more >>Yeah, for sure. Um, and uh, the next, next quick answer to the question, Angel asked what your thoughts on getups being a niche to get or versus others vcs tools? Well, if I knew anyone who is using anything other than get, I would say no, you know, get ops is a horrible name. It should just be CVS office, but that doesn't or vcs ops or whatever like that, but that doesn't roll off the tongue. So someone had to come up with the get ups phrase. Um but absolutely, it's all about version control solutions used for infrastructure, not code. Um might get doctor asks a great question, we're not gonna have time for it, but maybe people can reply and chat with what they think but about infrastructure and code, the lines being blurred and that do develop, how much of infrastructure does developer do developers need to know? Essentially, they're having to know all the things. Um so unfortunately we've had way more questions like every panel here today with all the great community, we've got way more questions we can handle in this time. So we're gonna have to wrap it up and say goodbye. Go to the next live panel. I believe the next one is um on developer, developer specific setups that's gonna be peter running that panel. Something about development in containers and I'm sure it's gonna be great. Just like this one. So let's go around the room where can people find you on the internet? I'm at Brett fisher on twitter. That's where you can usually find me most days you are? >>Yeah, I'm on twitter to um, I'll put it in the chat. It's kind of confusing because the TSR seven. >>Okay. Yeah, that's right. You can't just say it. You can also look at the blow of the video and like our faces are there and if you click on them, it tells you our twitter in Arlington and stuff, john >>John Harris 85, pretty much everywhere. Get hub Twitter slack, etc. >>Yeah >>and normal, normal faults or just, you know, living on Youtube live with Brett. >>Yeah, we're all on the twitter so go check us out there and thank you so much for joining. Uh thank you so much to you all for being here. I really appreciate you taking time in your busy schedule to join me for a little chit chat. Um Yes, all the, all the cheers, yes. >>And I think this kid apps loop has been declarative lee reconciled. >>Yeah, there we go. And with that ladies and gentlemen, uh bid you would do, we will see you in the next, next round coming up next with Peter >>bye.

>>from >>around the globe, >>it's the >>Cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 2021 brought to you by IBM >>Well, good to have you here on the cube. We continue our conversations here as part of the IBM think initiative. I'm john Walsh your host here on the cube, joined today by Marco Novakovich, who is the co founder and Ceo of an stana, which is an IBM company they specialize in enterprise observe ability for cloud native applications. And Merkel joins us all the way from Germany near cologne Germany. Merkel good to see you today. How are you doing >>and good. Hi john nice to be here, >>you bet, thank you for taking the time today. Well, first off, let's just let's just give some definitions here. Enterprise observe ability. Um what is that? What are we talking about here? >>Yes. So observe ability is basically the next generation of monitoring, which means it provides data from a system from an application to the outside so that people from the outside can basically judge what's happening inside of an application. So think about your a big e commerce provider and you are, you have your shop application and it doesn't work, observe ability, gives you the ability to really deep dive and see all the relevant metrics, logs, uh, and, and application flows to understand why something is not working as you would expect. >>So if I'm just listening to this, I think, okay, I'm I'm monitoring my applications already right. I've got a PM and force and, and I kind of know what things are going on, what's happening, where the hiccups are all that, how, what is the enhancement here than in terms of observe ability taking it sounds like you're kind of taking a P. M. To a much higher level. >>Absolutely. I mean that's essentially how you can think about it and, and, and we see three things that really make us and stana and enterprise observe ability different. And number one is automation. So the way we gather this information is fully automated, so you don't have to configure anything. We get inside of your code, we analyze the flow up the application, we get the errors, the logs and the metrics fully automatic. And the second is getting context. One of the problems with monitoring is that you have all these monitoring data silos. So you have metrics on the one side locks in a different tool. What we build is a real context. So we tie those data automatically together so that you get real information out of all the data. And and and the third is that we provide actions. So basically use ai to figure out what the problem is and then automate things. Is it a problem resolution restarting a container or resizing your cloud? That's what we suggest automatically out of all the contacts and data that we've gathered. >>So you talk about automation context intelligence, you combine all that in one big bundle here, then basically um that's a big bundle, right? I'm not a giant vacuum if you will. You're ingesting all this information, you're looking for performance metrics. So you're trying to find problems um what's the complexity of tying all that together instead of keeping those functions separate? Um you know what or and what's the benefit to having all that kind of under one roof then? >>Yeah. So from the complexity point of view for the end customer, it's really easy because we do it automated for us as a vendor building this, it's super complex but we wanted to make it very easy for the user and I would say the benefit is that you get, we call it the mean time to repair, like the time from a problem to resolve the problem gets significantly reduced because normally you have to do that correlation of data manually and now with that context you get this automated by a machine and we even suggest you these intelligent actions to fix the problem. >>So so I'm sorry go ahead. >>Yeah. And by the way, one of the things why IBM acquired us and why we are so excited working together with IBM is the combination of that functionality with something like what's in a I ops because as I said, we are suggesting an action and the next step is really fully automating uh this action with something like what's new Ai Ops and the automation functionality that IBM has so that the end users are not only gets the information what to do the machine even does and fix the problem automatically. >>Mm Well, I'm wondering to just about about the kind of the volume that we're dealing with these days in terms of software capabilities and data, uh you've got obviously a lot more inputs, right, a lot more interaction going on, a lot more capabilities. Uh You've got apps uh they're kind of broken down the microservices now, so I mean you've got you got a lot more action basically, right, You've got a lot more going on and and um and what's the challenge to not only keeping up with that, but also building for the future for building for different kinds of capabilities and different kinds of interactions that maybe we can't even predict right now. >>Absolutely, yeah. So uh I'm 20 years in that space. And when I started, as you said, it was a very simple system. Right? You had an application server like web sphere, maybe a DB two database. So that was your applications like today. Applications are broken down and hundreds of little services that communicate with each other. And you can imagine if, if something breaks down in a system where you have two or three components, it's maybe not easy, but it's handled by a human to figure out what the problem is, if you have 1000 pieces that are somehow interconnected and something is broken. It is really hard to figure that out. And that's essentially the problem uh that we have to solve with the contacts with the automation, with ai to figure out how all these things are tied together and then analyze automatically for the user where issues are happening. And and and by the way, that's that's also when you look into the future, I think things will get more and more complicated. You can see now that people break down from micro service into functions. We get more serverless. We got to get more into a hybrid cloud environment where you operate on premise and in multiple clouds. So things get more complex, not less complex. From an architectural perspective, >>you bring up clouds to is this diagnostic I mean or do you work with a an exclusive cloud provider or you open for business? Basically >>we are open for business but but we have to support the different cloud technologies. So we support all the big public cloud vendors from, from IBM to amazon google Microsoft. But on the other hand, we see with enterprises Maybe there is 10 20 of the workload in the public cloud, but the rest is still on premises. And there's also a lot of legacy. So you have to bring all this together in one view and in one context. And that's one of the things we do. We not only support the modern cloud native applications, we also support the legacy on premise world, so that we can bring that together and that helps customer to migrate. Right? Because if they understand the workload in the on premise world, it's easier to transform that into a cloud native world. But it also gives an end to end view from the end user to we we always say from mobile to mainframe, right from a mobile app down to the mainframe application. We can give you an end to end view. >>Yeah, you talk about legacy uh in this case it may be cloud services that people use but there but you know, a lot of these legacy applications right to that are running that that are, they're still very useful and still highly functional, but at some point they're not going to be so would it be easier for you or what do you do in terms of talking with your clients in terms of what do they leave behind? What do they bring with them? How what kind of transition time frames should they be thinking about? Because I don't think you want to be supporting forever. Right. I mean, you you want to be evolving into newer, more efficient services and solutions and so you've got to bring them along too. I would think. Right. >>Yeah. But to be really honest, I think there are two ways of thinking. One is as as a vendor, you would love to support only the new technologies and don't have to support all the legacy technologies. But on the other hand, the reality is especially in bigger enterprises, you will find everything in every word. Right? And so if you want to give a holistic D view into the application stacks, you have to support also the older legacy parts because they are part of the business critical systems of the customer. And yes, we suggest to upgrade and go into a cloud native world. But being realistic, I think for the next decade We will have to live with a world where you have legacy and new things working together. I think that's just the reality. And in 10 years, what is new today is legacy then? Right. So we'll always, we will always live in a kind of hybrid world between legacy and and new things. >>Yeah, you got this technological continuum going on right. That you know that you know what's new and shiny today is going to be, you know, old hat in five years. But that's the beauty of it all. Obviously you talked about Ai Ops. Um, I mean let's go into that relationship a little bit if you would. I mean eventually what is observe ability set you up to do in terms of uh your artificial intelligence operations and what are the capabilities now that you're providing in terms of the observe ability solutions that Ai Ops can benefit from? >>So the way I think about these two categories is that observe abilities, the system of record. That's where all the data is collected and and put into context. So that's what we do as in stana is we take all the data metrics, locks, traces, profiles and put it into a system of record by the way in in in very high granularity. It's very important. So we, we do not sample. We have second granularity metrics. So very high quality data in that system of record where Ai ops is the system of action. This is a system where it takes the data that we have applies machine learning, statistical analytics etcetera on it to figure out for example root cause of problems or even predict problems in the future and then suggests actions. Right? What the next thing that AI does is it suggests or automates an action that you need to do to for example scale up the system, scale down the system scaling down because you want to safe cost for example these are all things that are happening in the system of action which is the IOP space >>when I think about what you're talking about in terms of observe ability. I think well who needs it? Everybody is probably the answer to that. Um Can you give us maybe just a couple of examples of some clients that you've worked with in terms of of particular needs that they had and then how you applied your observe ability platform to provide them with these kinds of solutions? >>Yeah I I remember a big e commerce vendor in the U. S. Approaching us. Uh last october they were approaching the black friday right where where they sell a lot of goods and and they had performance issues but they only had issues with certain types of customers and with their existing APM solution. They couldn't figure out where the problem is because existing solutions sample, which means if you have 1000 customers you only see one of them as an example because the other 999 are not in your in your sample. And so they used us because we don't sample with us. If you have they have more than a billion requests today. You see every of the one billion requests and offer a few days they had all the problems figure out. And that's what that was. One of the things that we really do differently is providing all the needed data, not sampling and then giving the context around the problem so that you can solve issues like performance issues on your e commerce system easily. So they switched and you can imagine switching the system before black friday, you only do that if it's really needed. So they were really under pressure and so they switched their A P. M. Tool to in stana to be able to to fulfill the big demand they have on these black friday days. >>All right. So uh I I before I let you go you were just saying they had a high degree of confidence. How are you sweating? That went out because that was not a small thing at all. I would I >>assume. Uh Yes, it's not a small thing. And to be honest also it's very hard to predict the traffic on black Fridays. Right? Uh And and in this case I remember our SRE team, they had almost 20 times the traffic of the normal day during that black friday. And we because we don't sample, we need to make sure that we can handle and process all these traces. But we did, we did pretty well. So I have high confidence in our platform that we can really handle big amounts of data. We have >>one >>of the biggest companies in the world, the biggest companies in these worlds. They use our tool to monitor billions of requests. So I think we have proven that it works. >>You know, I say you're smiling to about it. So I think it obviously it did work. It >>did work. But yeah, I'm sweating still. Yeah. >>Never let them see you sweat merkel. I think you're very good at that and obviously very good at enterprise observe ability. It's an interesting concept, certainly putting it well under practice and thanks for the time today to talk about it here as part of IBM think to, to share your company's success story. Thank you. Marco. >>Thanks for having me, john >>All right. We're talking about enterprise observe ability here. I P. M. Thank the initiative continues here on the cube. I'm john Walton. Thank you for joining us. >>Yeah. Mhm. >>Yeah.

>>Live from Denver, Colorado. It's the cube covering comm vault. Go 2019 brought to you by Combolt. >>Hey, good morning. Welcome to the cubes coverage of combo go 19 I'm Lisa Martin and it was stupid man. Hey Sue. Hey Lisa. Are you ready? I was going to ask you. Yes. Are you ready? >>I believe the statement this morning was, we're born ready. >>We are born ready? Yes. That was a big theme this morning. It's the theme of the event here at con Volvo 19 in Colorado and great parody this morning of all these old video clips of all these actors including the Lego movie stars from saying I'm ready. Even SpongeBob. That one got me, so we had a great day. Yesterday's to love some news came out Monday and Tuesdays a lots of great stuff to talk about. We had there a lot of their C level execs and let a new changes a call yesterday. Really got the vibe of, Hey, this is a new Combalt. >>It's interesting Lisa, because one of the things we've been talking about is the 20 years of pedigree that the company has. This Andre Mirchandani said yet they're doing some new items. I was talking to some of the partners in there like how come metallics like a separate brand, don't you worry about brand spread? We knew a thing about having too many brands on the program so it is the history, the experience, the lessons learned, the war chest as they said of all of the things that have gone wrong over the years and I sure know that from my time living on the vendor side is there's no compression algorithm for all the experience you've had and like, Oh we fixed something in that stays in the code as opposed to there's something brand new might need to work through things over time but metallic a separate brand but leveraging the partnerships and the go to market and the experience of Convolt overall. >>So if you want, my quick take is, you know metallic. I definitely, I think coming out of here is the thing we will be talking the most about their SAS plus model. I want to see how that plays in the marketplace. As I probed Rob, when we interviewed him, customers, when you think about SAS, it should just be, I worry about my data and I get up and running and they said they have a very fast up and running less than 15 minutes. That's great. But some of that optionality that they built in, Oh well I can bring this along or I can add this and do this. It's always worried that a wait, do I have to remember my thing? And as it changes down the road, do I have everything set up right? Those are things that we're trying to get away from when we go to a SAS or cloud model. >>And to your point, another theme of the show has been about operational simplification, not just what Combolt is doing internally to simplify their operations, but what they need to deliver to customers. Customers want simplicity rates. Do we, we talk about that at every show regardless of industry, but there is this, this line, and maybe it's blurring, >>like we talked a lot about blurred lines yesterday of too much choice versus simplification. Where's the line there? >> Yeah and a great point Lisa, so one of the items Sandra Mirchandani said yesterday in his keynote was that blurring the line between primary and secondary storage and I probed him on our interview is Convolt going into the primary storage market with Hedvig. Hedvig has got a, you know, a nice offering, strong IP, good engineering team. I think they want to make sure that customers that have bought head vigor want to keep buying Hedvig we'll do it, but it really, I think two years from now when you look back at is that core IP, how does that get baked into the solution? That's why they bought it. That's where it's going to be there. I don't think we're going to be looking two years from now and saying, Oh wow know Convolt they're going up against all the storage star Walton competing a bit gets HCI and everything. >>They have a strong partnership, so I think I got clarity on that for the most part, even though the messaging will will move over time on that, it will move over time on that. >> That's a good point that the song blurred lines kept popping into my head yesterday as we were talking about that. But one of the things that was clear was when we spoke with Rob Kalusi and about metallic, we spoke with Avinash Lakshman about Hedvig Sanjay as well as Don foster. They're already working on the technical integration of of this solutions and we even spoke with their VP of pricing. So from a customer, from a current Hedvig customer perspective, there is focus on that from Combolt's perspective. It's not just about integrating the technologies and obviously that has to be done really well, but it's also about giving customers that consistency and really for combo kind of a new era of transparency with respect to pricing. >>And another thing we talked about some of that transformation of the channel and Mercer row came on board only a couple of days officially on the job. He's helped a number of companies get ready for multicloud and absolutely we've seen that change in the channel over the last five to 10 years. Know back in his days when he was at VM world at VMware there the channel was, Oh my gosh, you know, when Amazon wins we all lose and today we understand it as much more nuance there. The channel that is successful partners with the hyperscale cloud environments, they have practices built around it. The office three 65 and Microsoft practices are an area that Convolt in their partners should be able to do well with and the metallic will tie into as well as of course AWS. The 800 pound gorilla in this space will be there. Combolt plays into that and you know, setting the channel up for that next generation with the SAS, with the software and living in a broader multicloud environment is definitely something to watch you a lot of news about the channel, not just from a leadership standpoint but also so metallic for the mid market >>really delivered exclusively through the channel but also the new initiative that they have. And we talked a little bit about this yesterday about going after and really a big focus with global systems integrators on the largest global enterprises. And when we spoke with their GTM chief of staff yesterday along with Mercer with Carmen, what they're doing, cause I said, you know, channel partners, all the channel partners that they work with work with their competitors. So you have to really deliver differentiation and it can't just be about pricing or marketing messaging goes all the way into getting those feet on the street. And that's another area in which we heard yesterday Combolt making strategic improvements on more feet on the street co-selling with partners, really pulling them deeper into enablement and trainings and to them that's one of the key differentiators that they are delivering to their partners. Yeah >>and Lisa, he, we got to speak to a number, a couple of customers we have more coming on today. It's a little bit telling that you know the average customer you talk to, they have five 10 years of experience there. They are excited about some of the new offerings, but as we've said many times metallic, the new Hedvig we want to talk to the new logos that they're going to get on board. That is something that for the partners has been an incentive. There were new incentives put in place to help capture those new logos because as we know, revenue was actually down in the last fiscal year a bit and Convolt feels that they have turned the corner, they're all ready to go. And one other note I'd like to make, the analogy I used last year is we knew a CEO was canoe CEO search was happening, a lot of things were in motion and it's almost as if you were getting the body ready for an organ transplant and you make sure that the antibodies aren't going to reject it. And in conversation with Sanjay, he was very cognizant of that. His background is dev offs and he was a CIO. We went for it, he was the CEO of puppet. So he's going to make things move even faster. And the pace of change of the last nine months is just the beginning of the change. And for the most part I'm not hearing grumbling underneath the customer seem fully on board. The employees are energized and definitely there was good energy last year, but a raise of the enthusiasm this year. >>Well Stu, first of all, you have just been on fire the last two days comparing their CEO transition to getting a body ready for a transplant. It's probably one of the best things I've heard in a long time. That was awesome. But you're right, we've heard a lot of positivity. Cultural change is incredibly difficult. You talked a minute ago about this as a 20 year old company and as we all have all experience and the industries in which we're in, you know, one of the things that's important is, is messaging that experience and talking about the things that that worked well, but also the things that didn't work well, that they've learned from that message was carried through the keynote this morning. That three customers on stage that we saw before we had to come to the side. And I, I had, my favorite was from Sonic healthcare. Matthew McCabe's coming on in shortly with us and I always appreciate, you know, I think the voice of the customer is the best brand validation that you can get. However, what's even better is a customer talking about when the technologies that they're using fail because it does happen. How are they positioned with the support and the training and the education that is giving them to make those repairs quickly to ensure business continuity and ensure disaster recovery. I think that to me that speaks volumes about the legacy, the 20 years of experience that combo has. >>Yeah, no, Lisa, you're absolutely right. There's certain products out there that we talk about uptime in 100% in this space. You, I believe the stat was about 94% success rate and we had NASA in the keynote yesterday talking about success versus partial success versus failures and Convolt really embraces that and has customers that we'll talk about that because there are times that things will happen and there are things that you need to be able to recover from ransomware. Often it is not a question of if, when it is going to be happened, at least. The other thing I want to get your comment on Jimmy chin who is the director and one of the, the cameraman of the free solo Oscar-winning free solo documentary definitely gave me a little bit of, Oh my gosh, look at some of the Heights and I was nervous just looking at some of this stuff they're doing. I like a little bit of lightweight hiking. I'm not a mountain climber, nothing like that. But he talked about when the camera goes on, there's that added pressure that goes on and it's sitting there. It's like, yeah, you know, we sit here live all day doing that. There's that, that energy to perform. But you know, we all appreciate the everybody watching and understanding that we're all human here and every time, every once in awhile a word or a mistake gets in there, but we keep going summit. Yeah, >>that's life. But also Jimmy chin, phenomenal. I think at 2018 they just won the Oscar just earlier this year for free. Solo. I have to watch that this weekend. But a couple of things that he talked about is that failure is a huge part of preparation. Couldn't agree more. What a simplified statement for somebody that not only has has skied Everest, the climbed Meru, I think they call it the shark fin of India, but what you talked about with what he documented with free solo and all of the thousands of sequences and he talked about that, Alex, I'm forgetting his last name, the guy who closed, who free soloed, El Capitan, all of these different failure scenarios that he rehearsed over and over again in case he encountered any of them, he would immediately be to remedy that situation and get himself back on track. I thought that message to me, failure is a good F-word if you use it properly. You know NASA, you mentioned yesterday and NASA was famous for coining in the 60s failure is not an option and I always say onto that cause I used to work for NASA, but it's a distinct possibility. And so what Jimmy chin shared this morning was electrified, but it also was a great understatement of what Combolt is helping their customers. We have to help you prepare for this. We can't help you prepare for all of it. As you mentioned, ransomware, it's not if but when. >>Well, right and both NASA and when the climbing is understanding where something could go wrong and therefore what the failures scenarios are. So you know rockets today you can't have a failure and by failure they mean look, if the rocket isn't going to work or something goes wrong, we need to make sure we don't have loss of life. That is something that if you look at blue origin and SpaceX that is pre eminent in there is we can't have another challenger disaster. We can't have some of these environments where we have the loss of human life. So that is number one. Some of the other ones, sometimes we know that the unknown happens or things don't go quite right. So being prepared to understand if something goes wrong, how do we recover from that? And that brings us back to the whole data protection and recovery of the environment because the best laid architecture, eventually something will happen and therefore we need to make sure that that data, the lifeblood of the company is able to be recovered and used and that the business can go forward even if some piece of infrastructure or some attack got through. >>There are, and there's inherent risk in every industry, whether you're talking about healthcare data, we talked with AstraZeneca yesterday, you know, genetics, clinical data, or you're talking about a retailer, doesn't matter. There's an inherent risks with every business and one of the most important things that I got out of the NASA talk yesterday, Jimmy Chin's talked today, some of the customers, is that preparation is key. You can't be over prepared. You really can't act fact. He said that you can't be overprepared in his line of work, but I think it applies to the inherent risks that any business has. Managing data. As we talk about Sue all the time, it's the lifeblood. It's the new oil. It is. It has to be available, accessible 24 by seven if it isn't and can't be. Businesses are massive risk in this day and age. Competitive competitors who have maybe better risk fault tolerance scenario in play. >>So that risk that they have to mitigate comes a preparation. We're going to be talking with Sandra Hamilton in just a few minutes about who leads customer success for combo. Really want to dig into the training, the support. We've heard that articulated from customers on stage that I don't wake up in the middle of the night anymore because I have this support from my trusted vendor combo and that is critical to any business staying up. Absolutely. We're going to hear from number of customers. I'm sure they're ready and we are ready for day two. We are ready. See, let's have a great day. Yeah, thanks. All right, so Sue and I will be right back with our first guest on day two of our coverage of comm Volkow for Stu. I'm Lisa Martin. We'll be right back.

>>from San Francisco. It's the Q covering pager duty Summit 2019. Brought to you by pager Duty. >>Hey, welcome back there. Ready, Geoffrey? Here with the cue, we're pager duty Summit in the historic Western St Francis Hotel, downtown San Francisco. I think they've outgrown the venue. The place is packed to the gills. Standing, rolling, the keynote Really excited of our next guest. Someone who's been to this industry for awhile really done some super cool creative things. He's given the closing keynote. We're happy to have him here right now. That's Mitchell Hashimoto from Hachiko. It's great to see you. >>Good to see you too. Thanks for having >>absolutely so just a quick overview before we get into it on hot chic or for the people in our familiar >>Sure, so hospitals a company that what we try to do is help people adopt cloud, but more, more realistically, Adolfo multi cloud and hybrid cloud the real world complexities. That cloud isn't just a technical landing point, but it's really way You deliver software. You want to deliver more applications, you want to connect them faster. You want to do this in an automated away infrastructure is code of all these modern practices way. Build a suite of tools Thio provisions secure, connect and run those applications for separate products that we sell that you could adopt separately. Good mix and match. That's That's what we've been doing for a long time. Based on open source Software, Way started purely as an open source community and have grown into an enterprise cos that's that's That's the elevator pitch. >>No, it's great, but it's a great story, >>right? Europe, Europe in Seattle got some access to some cloud infrastructure and really solve your own problem. Figured out other people of that problem and then really built a really cool, open source kind of based software company. >>Yeah, I mean, I think the amount of people that had the problem I was facing personally was orders of magnitude more than I expected. I've told other people we never expected to start even a business around this. It was just scratching and building technical solutions. But a CZ, as we sort of worked at startups, started talking a bigger and bigger companies. It just kept everyone kept saying, Yes, I have that problem and it's only grown since then, right surprising, >>and the complexity has only grown exponentially before. The you know, years ago, there was this bright, shiny new object called a W s. I mean, I love Bezos is great line that nobody even paid attention. You have six or seven years. They've got a head start and kind of this Russian. Now there's been a little bit of a fallback as people trying to figure out what to go where now it's hybrid cloud and horses for courses. So a lot of great complexity, which is nothing but good news for you. >>Absolutely. I told this story before, but our first year incorporated company I actually got hung up on by an analyst because I said way we're trying to solve a multi cloud problem and they said that's not a real problem when it will never be a real problem. They hung up on me on it was a bet, then, and and I think they're the expectation that was it was gonna be Eight of us is gonna be physical infrastructure and the physical infrastructure days were numbered. It was gonna get acts out. It was just gonna all go to eight of us and our conviction was that you would have both forever and or for a very long time. And then people like Azure, Google and others would pick up and and that's been true. But I think what we didn't expect, the complexity that got introduced with things like containers in Kubernetes because it's not like Clouded option finished in the next started It all came at once. So now Riel Cos they're dealing with the complexity of their still trying to move the clouds. They're trying to get more out of their physical infrastructure, trying to adopt kubernetes. Now people are starting to peck at them about server list. So there the complexity is is a bit crazy and review our job trying to simplify that adoption make you get the most out of >>right. And that was before you could get a piece of Ian where inside of AWS, get a get a piece of the Google Data Center inside your own data center. So it just continues to get crazier. >>Yes, yeah, So you're giving a closing keynote on a >>new project. You're working on fault, and it's an existing project. Justin cry. They're old, but but I think you talked about before we turn the cameras on. It's really more of a kind of an attitude in a and a point of view and a way to go after the problem. So I wonder if you could kind of dig into a little bit of What did you see? How did you decide to kind of turn the lens a little bit and reframe this challenge? Yeah, >>I think the big picture of story I'm trying to tell him the keynote is that everybody? Anything You look around the technical nontechnical, this table, that glass. Like everything you look at, it trickles back to the idea of one or a small group of people, and it takes an army to make it show up on this table. But it starts by somebody's vision, and everything was created by somebody. So I'm talking about vault, something we made and, you know, why don't we create it? And why do we make it the way we did? And you know, another thing I say is people ask, Why did you start hot record for having this vision? Something I constantly told myself was wine on me. I get someone's gonna do it. Why not make it? Could be anybody, like I'll give it a shot. Why not? And Bolt was that way. We Armand. I'm a co founder. Way took security classes in college, but we don't have a formal security background. We didn't work in security in industry. So the odds of us launching a security product that is so prevalent today whether you know it or not, it's behind the scenes very prevalent were stacked against us. How did that happen? And that's that's sort of what I've been going to talk about. >>Let's go. But do >>dive into a little bit on the security challenge because it's funny, right? Everyone always says, Right. Security's got to be baked in and you've got these complex infrastructure and everything's connected with AP eyes, the other people's applications and, oh yes, delivered through this little thing that you carry around. And maybe the network's not working well or the CPS running low are You're running iPhone five. And of course, it's not gonna work on most modern app. Yeah, bacon security always do, but that's easy to say. It's much harder to do, you know. Still, people want to build moats and castles and drawbridges, and that's just not gonna work anymore. >>Exactly. So you exactly hit upon the two major issues that we recognize there felt we recognize. One was that a lot of people were saying it. Very few people were doing it on. The reality was it was hard to do. Everyone knew theoretically what they should do. No one, no one thought. Oh yeah, saving somebody's personal information in plain text in the daytime. It's a good idea. Nobody thought that Everyone said it should be encrypted, but encryption is hard. So maybe one day, so no one was doing it. And then the other side of it was the people that were doing it where the world's largest companies, because the solutions were catered towards his mindset of of castle and moats, which works totally fine in a physical tradition environment but completely breaks down in a cloud world where there is no four perimeters anymore. It's >>still there, There. >>You're one AP I call away from opening everything to the Internet. So how do you protect this? And we've seen a lot of trends change towards zero Trust and ServiceMaster Mutual feel like there's a lot of stuff that happened way sort of jumped on that. >>Yeah, so So you're using, like, multi level encryption, and I've read a little bit on the website. It's way over my head, I think. But, you >>know, the basics are just making kryptonite. Christian makes security, cloud infrastructure, security approachable by anybody and a core philosophy. Our company, Hashi Hashi Hashi. My name means bridge, and that is a core part of our culture. Which is you can't just have, ah, theoretical thing or a shiny object and leave people hanging. You gotta give them a bridge, a path to get there, right? And so we say, with all our technology, one of the crawl, walk and run adoption periods and with security it's the same is that to say you're secure means something totally different everybody for a bank to be secure, it's a lot more than for a five person started to be secure. So how do you give somebody a solutions they could adopt? Check the security box for themselves at every path of the lake, and bald is one of the tools that way have individuals using it, and we have the world's largest companies, almost 10% of the global 2000 paying customers evolved many more open source users on its scales the entire spectrum. >>Wow. So you keep coming up >>with lots of new, uh, new projects as we get ready to flip the counter to 2020. What are some of the things you're thinking about? >>I think the big one, you know, that our focus is right now is service. Miss Vault is we're big enough company now where we always have teams working on every every one of our projects we have release is going out. The thing we've been talking about the most is the service mess thing. I think Cloud as a mainstream thing, Let's say, has has existed for seven or eight years. It's since it's been released. It's been over in almost 15 but as a thing that people have, that is a good idea. Seven or eight years and you know we've touched security. Now we've touched how infrastructures managed touch developers. I think a place that's been relatively untouched and has gotten by without anyone noticing has been networking and network security. They're they're really doing things the way they've always done things, and I think that's been okay because there's bigger fish to fry. But I think the time has come and networking as a bull's eye on it. And people are looking at What is networking mean in a cloud world and service mash appears to be the way that is gonna happen. Way have our own service mess solution called Council on Our Approaches Standard Hasta Corp. It's nothing new. It's We're gonna work with everything containers, kubernetes, viens physical infrastructure. We're gonna make it all work across multiple data centers. That is our approach service fashion, solving that challenge. >>What's the secret sauce? >>I mean, it's not that secret, right? >>It's just building. Just execute. Better understand that this header >>JD is the problem, right? Right, I said, This is our keynote a couple weeks ago that there are a lot of service messes out there, and nine out of 10 of them are solving a solution for a single environment, whether it's kubernetes or physical environment. And I think that's a problem. But it's not the problem. The problem to me is how do I get my kubernetes instances pods to communicate to my NSX service is on my physical infrastructure. That is the problem as people, whether that's temporary, not and they intend to move the communities or whatever. It's that's the reality. And how do you make that work? And that is what we're focused on solving that problem >>just every time I hear service mess. I think there was a company a while ago that sold the CSC. Probably like 2013. Didn't really get into That is a as a good, happy story. But they were early on the name. Yeah. Yeah. So last thing pager duty were Pedrie. What? You guys doing a page of duty? >>Sure. So we've been I've actually been a paying customer pager duty since before we even made this company in my previous job was a customer wear now, still customers. So we still use it internally. But in addition to that way, do integration across the board. So with terra form our infrastructure provisioning tool way have a way to manage all pager duty as code and as your complexion pager duty rises instead of clicking through a u. I being able to version and code everything and have that realize itself and how he works very valuable from like a service MASH consul standpoint. Hooking in the monitoring to the alerting of Pedro duty is a big thing that we do so tying those together. So it's very symbiotic. I love pager duty as a user and a partner. There's a lot here. >>Yeah, is pretty interesting slide when Jennifer put up in the keynote where it listed so many integration points with so many applications with on the outside looking in and you're like how you're integrating with spunk, that making how you're innovating with service. Now that doesn't make any sense. How Integrated was in Desperate. These were all kind of systems of record, but really, there's some really elegant integration points to make. This one plus one equals three opportunity between these applications. >>Yeah, I think it's very similar to the stuff we do with Walton Security. It's like the core permanence. Everybody needs him like with security. Everyone is an auto. Everyone needs traceability. Everyone needs access control. But rebuilding that functionality and every application is unrealistic. And paging and alerting an on call and events are the same thing. So it's you'd rather integrate and leverage those systems that make that your nexus for that specific functionality. And that's where Page duties. Awesome way. Step in, >>which was always great to catch up. Good luck on your keynote tomorrow. And really, it's a really amazing story to watch that you got You guys have built >>Well, thank you very much. >>All right. He's Mitchell. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cue. Were paid your duty, Simon in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> We're back live >> here on the Cube Of'em world 2019 that Mosconi Center, Downtown San Francisco along with stew Minimum. I'm John Walton. Thanks for joining us here Day one of our three days of coverage here via World 2019. We're now joined by the CEO of equity. Ex Charles Myers is with us and a cube rookie. We >> love that. Nice to have you on the ship here. Pleasure. Thanks for >> being here with us. Let's let's talk about first big picture here from the higher level, the whole multi cloud hybrid cloud movement. What's going on now with the Enterprise? Your perspective on kind of where we are in that shift, if you will, or that transformation and what's what's driving it? What what's what's creating all the. >> But you get that question a lot, right? People ask me what inning O'Ryan question. Um, you know, it's a regular >> is so what way? Well, >> you know, said I would say a couple of years ago, you know, people said, I don't think that I think the national anthem is still being played kind of thing, you know? And, uh, I think the game has probably started to know, but But I still think we're very early innings. Um and, uh, you know, I think I'd actually bring it up to even a higher level and talk about what's happening in terms of how companies were thinking about digital transformation and what I what I think is happening is it's becoming a board level priority for cos they can't afford to ignore it. Um, you know, digital is changing the U no basis for competitive advantage in most industries around the globe. Um and so they're investing in digital transformation. And I think they're gonna do that, frankly, independent of whatever macro economic climate we operated, Um, and so Ah, and I think you know the big driving force. Probably, you know, individual transformation today. So the cloud on DSO and what we're seeing is there is that, you know, is a particular architecture of choice that's emerging for customers. >> So, Charles, give us a little >> bit of a scope of your world because, you know, there was a move many years ago. We used to say in the I t industry, you know, friends don't let friends build data center because there's only a handful of companies in the world that are good at it. I believe your company's one of s O and not only, you know, even, you know, you talk about the megastar providers like, you know, Google and Amazon. They actually don't build many of their own data centers. They partner with certain companies and and you're one of the first companies that I talked to that was, You know, when you talk about how we position multi cloud today, well, you know, let me put some gear in an equinox environment, you know, have that direct fiber you know, into AWS or Azure in the lake s O. That was early, and we've been talking for a while, so it gives a little bit that that that broad look, you know, because from the big public cloud, you know, they're spending tens of billions of dollars a year to build that out. So, you know, and often your real estates a big piece of your world's >> absolutely and well, we certainly like to think we're pretty damn good to build an operating data centers. But >> there actually are a lot of >> people to build, not break data centers and and, of course, the clouds Dubai from third parties. But they, uh, you know, they build some of their own, and they do buy from third parties as well. We think we occupy a pretty special place in the overall data center landscape because, candidly, people, you know can buy credible data center capacity from a number of players what they can't but they really want, though, is not so much a data center as they want to connect to somebody specifically, Um, and that's where Equinox is really different. You know, with 10,000 you know, customers inside of our digital ecosystems, you know, And we operate in 200 data centers across 52 markets around the world. And, you know, we represent something very special. And it's that interconnection piece there really differentiates at clinics. From the rest. >> You've had some, I guess expansion news in terms of partnerships with the, um, where that you announced talk about that a little bit if you would, but how you've grown that relationship. And what do you think that'll take you? >> Sure. And it bridges a little bit back to suit earlier question to which is, you know, kind of What what role do we play and how is it, you know, frame in the overall cloud landscape? What was announced today was a preferred partnership with between ourselves and and, uh, and now Veum wear and and also Del to deliver the VMC on Del um you know, offering which is really aimed at the sort of hybrid cloud requirements for enterprises, customers who have workload, a set of workloads, some of which may be very well suited to public cloud. And they may go either native on AWS or with of'em CNW s type solution. But a >> lot of >> times they, for a variety of reasons, are looking for a hybrid cloud solution on, and they want to implement that on private infrastructure. But they would like to get the benefits of clout they would get, like to get the simplicity, that flexibility as a service convenience. But they need the control, the compliance, the predictability and the performance that private infrastructure allows. And so where that's what that's what the solution is all about. And were there were the preferred global cola partner for that solution. >> And do companies have a pretty good idea when they come to you about what they want to do and where they want to do it? Or do you have to shepherd them through that a little bit? Because there are a number of factors that would think that go into that consideration? >> Absolutely. And >> I would say it's more typically the ladder. There are certainly >> some who come with a well developed, you know, sort of view on >> things, but it that often >> changes to some degree, and and we we like to think of ourselves. As you know, it's probably an overused term in I T. But it's as a trusted advisor in terms of helping a customer think through. It's >> really one of the great things that I think >> both of'em where and Equinox are positioned, as which is somebody who doesn't bring, say, here's the answer. Instead, they come and say, Look, the answer probably depends on a lot of factors, and so you may want a private cloud solution. You may want a public cloud solution. You probably want a hybrid cloud solution and a hybrid multi cloud solution. So let's talk through what you're trying to accomplish and how we can get you there. >> Yeah, Charles, you know, we know that things were going to change, and the advice we always give to practitioners is whatever you deploy, you need to be able to have the agility and have options. So that a decision you make today is not going to freeze you from doing something in there. Absolutely. A lot gets talked about in the multi cloud world. What is portable and what things were moving. And, you know, we know KUBERNETES is not magic. Right? Um, your your company must have actually really good view of things going from the public cloud to my own racks, too. Moving sideways because many times moving between clouds is just moving between Rose and your data centers, right? Or over some connection gives a little insight what you're seeing. Yeah. What's the trend along >> that line? You bring up a really great point and one, Frankly, I think our you know, our sales teams and are are, you know, solution. Architects are constantly talking to our customers about which is fruit future proofing your architecture because you don't know kind of what your needs are going to be tomorrow, Um, and so being able to deploy infrastructure in a way that has greater agility and flexibility is really critically important. And that's why putting private infrastructure immediately proximate to the cloud, being able to get to the performance benefits the economic benefits of that is really key. So that's that's definitely something we're seeing, you know, as a critical part of the conversation with our customers. >> How about EJ computing? That's something that touched on a little bit this morning. But, you know, I'm sure you've got some strong feelings about where we are >> today. You know, it's funny because I always I always telling everybody inside my company around. I said, Be careful about the word edge because one person's edge in another person's court, right, you know? And so, um, you know, we actually talk about eh? Quinyx as really the best manifestation of the digital edge today, and perhaps that sounds somewhat self serving. But I would say that when you look at people who want to place infrastructure geo geographically distributed way and they want to interconnected with clouds with networks with other members of their sort of supply chain. Equinox is really best solution for that in many, many cases. And so we really talk about EJ oriented solutions with our customers inside of our are, you know, sort of population of 200 data centers across 52 markets today. Now, when I when typically I think when you're hearing edge today people are talking about an even more geographically distributed footprint that is out, You know, closer I ot sensors or closer to, you know, customer endpoints and those kind of things, Um >> and I I think that will happen over time. And I >> think people talk about compute storage moving closer to that edge. But >> I think that's gonna, you know, >> take place over a long period of time. I think five g once it's fully dense, ified and deployed. I think we'll start to drive some of those applications. But we're seeing today is the current digital edge at a quinyx works very well for most of these edge related applications. >> So what would you call it then, if it's not edge? Because you said one >> man's, we do call it yet. Yeah, right. We call it a vigil. Some people might operate out there as a >> core business right into them. That's the core you raise. An interesting point Depends on your perspective and how you see it. So we called the digital and you think from the telco side of that slate mobile applications, mobile devices. You know, we all know about the usage trends. What you see in the last 10 15 years, that's good. Just explode. So how are you preparing for that on slot? Because, you know, five G's coming >> it is. Well, we're actively >> involved. In fact, we haven't We've had real success in a number of I would call him EJ sensitive Reg related ecosystems, digital payments, you know, connected car these things and people love to talk about autonomous driving. The reality is that most autonomous driving, Um, you know, interactions are done on boards. You you don't even have time to go out and making a request to the cloud. Right? You know, But other connected car value propositions that do interact, you know, with, you know, with of farther edge are things that we've actually been working really closely with equipment providers and service providers on, and they're having great success in implementing those things. Using at clinics is part of the architecture. All right, >> Charles, how about security? You know, when you live in this multi cloud world, you know I need security that can living across the environment. How does a clinic make sure that it's a trusted partner in that? That whole security store? >> There's a variety of sort of layers to it, you know, you are the biggest response to be we have specifically is physical security because people are trusting their infrastructure to reside in one of our facilities, and it needs to be physically secure. So there's five layers of security between the front door. I know you've toured one of our facilities and have gotten the full experience of all the biometrics and all the checks and balances that occur in terms of being able to someone to being able to gain access to the facility. So there's the >> physical side. Then there's >> really, you know, sort of virtual or, you know, ah, digital security. And you know what we're doing there is really cultivating the ecosystem of providers. We have a number of really sophisticated customers who are delivering cloud based security solutions. VM. Where is one example of that? But you know, there's a variety of other customers that have a sort of, you know, security oriented value proposition companies like C Scale and other people that are really doing that well for customers. So I think that, you know, we're really more about cultivating that full ecosystem so that customers have access to the full portfolio of security tools that they need. >> Charles, Thanks for the time. We appreciate that. And I do want to congratulate you on having probably the strongest team showing >> of the Cube so far. Take, they have Charles do today. Everybody All right, That's the equities culture, all right? Trust me, they're clapping. I expected a little more of around next time we'll work on it. A good deal. Thanks for being with us side your baby. Thank you very much for big connects. Back >> with more where we're alive. Here in San Francisco at Veum World 2019

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this breaking analysis this is Dave Volante and VMware announced yesterday its quarterly results and it also announced the acquisition of two companies pivotal which was the news was broken before of the earnings announcement but also carbon black a Walton Massachusetts based security company and you may be wondering what the hell is VM we are up to what are they doing and I want to sort of unpack that and explain it to you from my perspective so pivotal and carbon black are getting paid 2.7 billion and 2.1 billion dollar respectively is the value of those deals so VMware is paying an enterprise value to sales ratio of 3.8 and 7x respectively for pivotal and carbon black the motivation here in my view is really to clean up pivotal I'm going to explain that in a second and also to increase VMware's cloud multi cloud and recurring revenue contributions today the SAS business of VMware is only about 12% of the company's revenue so they want to increase that because they want to have a cloud like model and recurring revenue the challenge for a company like VMware who's largely based on perpetual license models upfront get paid for the whole license and then you do some maintenance is it's like a heroin injection you get the big rush of cash whereas with the recurring revenue model you're streaming out over and deferring it over a twelve or thirty six month or 24 month period and so the revenue impact is somewhat negative on the income statement and that's putting a little bit pressure on the stock but VMware management understands that that long term it's a much more predictable and attractive business model to be a SAS company than it is to be a traditional license based perpetual license based software company now the pivotal deal is somewhat complicated and of course when Michael Dell's involved we tend to have these complicated transactions as organization is very savvy in terms of from a financial standpoint we saw that remember when Michael Dell and Silverlake bought a EMC for 67 billion dollars they shelled out only only four billion dollars of their own cash now they took out a lot of debt but it was a very interesting and complicated financial transaction so part of this is cleaning up some of that transaction that all I'll explain in my opinion VMware is getting a pretty good deal for both pivotal and a decent deal for carbon black so so let me explain first of all Alex if you would bring up the the chart on pivotal let's take a look at it now you can see here you know pivotal did its IPO you know last year a when IPO is I think that we know close to a four billion dollar valuation and you can see the stock is not performed well subsequent to that it you know it was never able to get back to its IPO price it had a you know decent uptick you know in in March of this year as the market was running up and you can see the earnings miss in in the late spring early summer back in the June announcement date big hit there the company's been struggling in the marketplace you know it's got a lot of assets remember pivotal was originally put together as a collection of what I used to call misfit toys some of the EMC assets some of the VMware assets they put together at Palmer its you know created this entity to try to create a platform for application development Michael Dell saw this as an opportunity to take it public and actually you know create another asset in part of the Dell family but you can see here post June you know the the decline in the stock price and then you see the announcement from VMware or the rumor that came out actually was an announcement that came out in the press this week and the stock jumped over 70% on a day when the Dow dropped 800 points but you can see now the the today's price it was fourteen eighty eight when I took this snapshot about 50 cents on the dollar from the IPO price and so you can see that that VMware and Michael Dell are kind of doing the top cat they did the IP that pulled the coin back and now they're gonna repurchase the stock so kind of interesting but here's what the interesting part is VMware is only paying nine hundred million dollars in cash to the public shareholders how can that be so here's the deal vmware already owns about 15% of pivotal where dell owns about 70 percent of the company so what's happened l controls 95 percent of the voting shares which is why you know one of the reasons why this stock really never took off it's one of those one of those ownership structures and governance structures where you know a single individual really controls the stock so that often times keeps stock prices down but nonetheless Dells 70% is being exchanged for VMware stock for pivotal stocks that are owned by Dell so let me read you the statement Alex if you could bring up that statement from the earnings call this is from the VMware a CFO explaining the mechanics with regards to pivotal VMware has agreed to acquire a pivotal at a blended price per share of eleven dollars and 71 cents comprised of $15 per share in cash to public stockholders that's why the stock is trading at 14 dollars and 88 cents today and a little bit of arbitrage flowed in there and VMware's Class B common shares exchange for pivotal Class B common shares held by Dell technologies in an exchange rate of point zero five five VMware shares for each pivotal share the transaction has an excuse me enterprise value of 2.7 billion Dell technologies will receive approximately 7.2 million shares of VMware Class B common stock and now drew aggregate this results in an expected net cash payout for VMware of 0.8 billion I said I said point nine billion the impact of the equity issue to Dell technologies would increase its ownership stake in VMware by approximately 0.34 percentage points to a total of 81 0.09 percent based on the shares currently outstanding as it said VMware currently holds 15 percent of outstanding shares pivotal ones clothes will update blahblahblah so Michael Dell's buying VMware stock he's increasing his share of VMware which is also a kind of an interesting side note but now let's look at the pivotal fundamentals does this make strategic sense yes in my opinion why is that this is all about containers and it's all about next-generation application development for cloud it's also a hedge for VMware everybody said containers are gonna kill VMware well it's it's a hedge in the instance that that that containers start to impact VMware's traditional virtualization business now as I showed yesterday on the video where I was looking at ETR research there's no evidence today that it containers are slowing down the spending on VMware you deploy containers in many many ways certainly they're deployed in in bare metal and that's somewhat of a risk to a VMware but they're also they're also deployed on top of virtual machines on top of VMware so you know right now it's not been a negative for for VMware and by acquiring pivotal it can bring those synergies into the VMware mothership which is Dells a software mothership I call it and there's also synergies in sales and marketing and R&D and it kind of cleans up pivotal and consolidates the assets now let's look at carbon black this is a security play and it's really a different story than pivotal first you got to remember the Pat Gallagher told John Fourier in me several years ago in the cube that security is a do-over and I'll tell you right now Pat Gail singer and VMware are architecting a security do-over you've got on pram you've got hybrid you've got cloud you've got multi ply cloud traditional security models aren't gonna cut it so let's look at this clip by pat gyal singer and he'll it'll give you a sense of how he and VMware are thinking about the future watch this and we'll come back and talk about it Steve Herod on our Crouch at pre game on Friday with the hot opportunities are for startups he said security or mainly not getting caught at this perimeter basically what's your view on that well you know the krusty you know the hard crust the exterior and the soft gooey inside as I described it this morning my morning breakfast every day and you know with it right this whole idea of micro segmentation and nsx really redefines how you build networks and that's gonna allow us to refactor every aspect of security every aspect of routing and load balancing etc okay so what Pat was saying is he's talking about micro segmentation nsx the critical acquisition from nice Syrah refactoring security and everything security is a do-over okay Alex let's bring up the chart of carbon black I wanna I want to look at that and explain to our audience kind of what's going on there so you can see it's a it's a little bit of a different picture from from pivotal you've got that kind of bathtub look to it so you see at the IPO it was a hot company but it underperformed and and it was struggling there you know coming into at the end of last year and then into 2019 you could see it was kind of bouncing around at its lows and then what happened was you saw it earlier this year the company guided down so you can see that you know big drop after into February announced you big spike downwards they guided down the CFO resigned and there were several down grades from Wall Street analysts and that really crushed the stock but then you sort of bouncing back through May and then what happened is you know you had this growth company they've grown at 25 to 30% a year and they beat earnings estimates in May so they guide it down in in February but then they beat and you had a new CFO you just kind of had this new renewed emphasis on on the company and then this summer they hired morgan stanley and so the acquisition rumors started and that you can see you know into august it starts to pick up again so i have no doubt that this was a competitive bid of vmware wanted it so so here's another comment that i want to share with you from last year at VMworld and again it'll give you an additional insight as to how Pat Gallagher is thinking about the future go ahead and play the clip and then we'll come back what together into my application and in that sense the application is a network of these different services data sources etc and we believe in that you're bridging across silos isn't important it is essential to do that yeah because as you say security models across that you know how does the you know when that application isn't performing like I expect it to how do I go even debug it so think about what Pat said the application is a network of services services it's not as such it's not important it's essential that we deliver that in a consolidated model including security models okay so you got VMware looking to make its platform the place to run modern apps you got carbon black at 250 million dollar company trading at a discount of about 5.5 X revenue they got strong growth at the time but 25 to 30 percent of years it's consistent and then nearly 40 percent of its business is coming from the cloud and the cloud business is growing at 70 percent a year so VMware remember jettisoned its cloud business vCloud air but it still has a desire it covets participating in cloud at least in the form of multi cloud and on-prem cloud like experiences Carbon Black is a modern endpoint security company you heard John's question about the perimeter and you know you can't build moats anymore you you really endpoints are really the the new vulnerability especially when you start thinking about IOT so VMware is desirous of cloud revenue multi cloud and recurring revenue you got a growth company that's looking to sell they've got leading technology as I said this it was a competitive bid and VMware wanted it so now the other thing is VMware knows carbon black they've they've integrated carbon black into its app defense offering and VMware has been expanding its portfolio not so quietly lately app defense NSX has a you know with its micro segmentation is really a security use case AirWatch has a security component cloud choreo ee8 security was another acquisition bracket intrinsic was you know these little tuck-ins you sort of draw a picture of how Dell senior and VMware are starting to build out its portfolio again making vmware the software mothership security is a critical component of that it also gives VMware much more of a strategic entrance into the c-suite particularly with the chief information security officer we've talked many times on the cube that security is now a board level discussion to the extent that VMware can be the platform for multi cloud security and of course you know that's not assured right there battling cisco who's coming at it from a network position they're battling google who's coming you know announced anthos they're certainly battling Microsoft certainly IBM and Red Hat have similar designs and as we've said watch this space Amazon ultimately we think is going to get into this area but any rate VMware's making security a fundamental part of its platform it's bridging those silos is what what Pat Gayle singer talked about in the video and giving you access to sets of infrastructure so with pivotal it's building out you know in cloud native application development and and tooling container technology and that's clearly strategic to its multi cloud strategy helps VMware stay relevant VMware doesn't own a cloud so it's got to move fast and be first in this multi cloud space ok so let me summarize VMware's gonna spend 2.7 billion on two key acquisitions they're gonna add it's gonna add a billion dollars in two points of revenue growth that's largely in SAS and hybrid cloud and recurring revenue for VMware and three billion dollars in year two now let me do some Volante math for you VMware trades at about five to six times revenue so essentially they just added five to six billion dollars in market value in year one and by the way the stock is off eight percent today so because of these acquisitions so and it's got upside in my view assuming that you know there's not some big economic downturn but we're talking about 15 to 18 billion in market cap in year two so this acceleration VMware's transition to SATs ass it's a cash flow positive and the creative acquisitions in year two according to vmware vmware throws off nearly four billion dollars in annual and operating annually and operating cash flow to me this is a good use of cash balancing acquisitions and to continue growth and tuck in your ability to be that platform for cloud and multi cloud services and hybrid cloud is a good use of cash I like it better than stock buybacks frankly so a combination of stock buybacks organic Rd which VM was very strong engineering culture and acquisitions in this case using your stock as currency I like the deals we're gonna watch him very closely and we're gonna be talking about this this next week at vmworld so watch the cube at vmworld the cube net will be there myself john fourier stu minimun Jeff Rick the entire team celebrating our 10th year at vmworld if you have any questions on this or comments please tweet me at diva want a thanks for watching everybody we'll see you next week