>>and hello, we're back. I've got my panel and we are doing things real time here. So sorry for the delay a few minutes late. So the way let's talk about things, the reason we're here and we're going around the room and introduce everybody. Got three special guests here. I got my evil or my john and the normal And we're going to talk about get ops I called it future office just because I want to think about what's the next thing for that at the end, we're gonna talk about what our ideas for what's next for getups, right? Um, because we're all starting to just get into get ups now. But of course a lot of us are always thinking about what's next? What's better? How can we make this thing better? So we're going to take your questions. That's the reason we're here, is to take your questions and answer them. Or at least the best we can for the next hour. And all right, so let's go around the room and introduce yourself. My name is Brett. I am streaming from Brett from that. From Brett. From Virginia Beach in Virginia beach, Virginia, United States. Um, and I talk about things on the internet, I sell courses on you, to me that talk about Docker and kubernetes Ive or introduce yourself. >>How's it going? Everyone, I'm a software engineer at axel Springer, currently based in Berlin and I happen to be Brett Brett's teaching assistant. >>All right, that's right. We're in, we're in our courses together almost every day. Mm john >>hey everyone, my name is john Harris, I used to work at Dhaka um, I now work at VM ware is a star field engineer. Um, so yeah, >>and normal >>awesome by the way, you are streaming from Brett Brett, >>I answered from breath to breath. >>Um I'm normal method. I'm a distinguished engineer with booz allen and I'm also a doctor captain and it's good to see either in person and it's good to see you again john it's been a little while. >>It has the pre covid times, right? You're up here in Seattle. >>Yeah. It feels, it feels like an eternity ago. >>Yeah, john shirt looks red and reminds me of the Austin T shirt. So I was like, yeah, so we all, we all have like this old limited edition doctor on E. >>T. That's a, that's a classic. >>Yeah, I scored that one last year. Sometimes with these old conference church, you have to like go into people's closets. I'm not saying I did that. Um, but you know, you have to go steal stuff, you to find ways to get the swag >>post post covid. If you ever come to my place, I'm going to have to lock the closets. That >>that's right, That's right. >>So the second I think it was the second floor of the doctor HQ in SAn Francisco was where they kept all the T shirts, just boxes and boxes and boxes floor to ceiling. So every time I went to HQ you just you just as many as you can fit in your luggage. I think I have about 10 of these. You >>bring an extra piece of luggage just for your your shirt shirt grab. Um All right, so I'm going to start scanning questions uh so that you don't have to you can you help you all are welcome to do that. And I'm going to start us off with the topic. Um So let's just define the parameters. Like we can talk about anything devops and here we can go down and plenty of rabbit holes. But the kind of, the goal here is to talk about get ups and get ups if you haven't heard about it is essentially uh using versioning systems like get like we've all been getting used to as developers to track your infrastructure changes, not just your code changes and then automate that with a bunch of tooling so that the robots take over. And essentially you have get as a central source of truth and then get log as a central source of history and then there's a bunch of magic little bits in the middle and then supposedly everything is wonderful. It's all automatic. The reality is is what it's often quite messy, quite tricky to get everything working. And uh the edges of this are not perfect. Um so it is a relatively new thing. It's probably three, maybe four years old as an official thing from. We've uh so we're gonna get into it and I'll let's go around the room and the same word we did before and um not to push on that, put you on the spot or anything. But what is, what is one of the things you either like or either hate about getups um that you've enjoyed either using it or you know, whatever for me. I really, I really love that I can point people to a repo that basically is hopefully if they look at the log a tracking, simplistic tracking of what might have changed in that part of the world or the environment. I remember many years past where, you know, I've had executive or some mid level manager wants to see what the changes were or someone outside my team went to see what we just changed. It was okay, they need access to this system into that dashboard and that spreadsheet and then this thing and it was always so complicated and now in a world where if we're using get up orbit bucket or whatever where you can just say, hey go look at that repo if there was three commits today, probably three changes happened. That's I love that particular part about it. Of course it's always more complicated than that. But um Ive or I know you've been getting into this stuff recently. So um any thoughts? Yeah, I think >>my favorite part about get ops is >>reproducibility. Um >>you know the ability to just test something and get it up and running >>and then just tear it down. >>Uh not >>being worried that how did I configure it the first time? I think that's my favorite part about >>it. I'm changing your background as we do this. >>I was going to say, did you just do it get ups pushed to like change his >>background, just a dialogue that different for that green screen equals false? Uh Change the background. Yeah, I mean, um and I mean I think last year was really my first year of actually using it on anything significant, like a real project. Um so I'm still, I still feel like I'm very new to john you anything. >>Yeah, it's weird getups is that thing which kind of crystallizes maybe better than anything else, the grizzled veteran life cycle of emotions with the technology because I think it's easy to get super excited about something new. And when I first looked into get up, so I think this is even before it was probably called getups, we were looking at like how to use guest source of truth, like everything sounds great, right? You're like, wait, get everyone knows, get gets the source of truth, There's a load of robust tooling. This just makes a sense. If everything dies, we can just apply the get again, that would be great. Um and then you go through like the trough of despair, right? We're like, oh no, none of this works. The application is super stateless if this doesn't work and what do we do with secrets and how do we do this? Like how do we get people access in the right place and then you realize everything is terrible again and then everything it equalizes and you're kind of, I think, you know, it sounds great on paper and they were absolutely fantastic things about it, but I think just having that measured approach to it, like it's, you know, I think when you put it best in the beginning where you do a and then there's a magic and then you get C. Right, like it's the magic, which is >>the magic is the mystery, >>right? >>Magic can be good and bad and in text so >>very much so yeah, so um concurrence with with john and ever uh in terms of what I like about it is the potential to apply it to moving security to left and getting closer to a more stable infrastructures code with respect to the whole entire environment. Um And uh and that reconciliation loop, it reminds me of what, what is old is new again? Right? Well, quote unquote old um in terms of like chef and puppet and that the reconciliation loop applied in a in a more uh in a cleaner interface and and into the infrastructure that we're kind of used to already, once you start really digging into kubernetes what I don't like and just this is in concurrence with the other Panelist is it's relatively new. It has um, so it has a learning curve and it's still being, you know, it's a very active um environment and community and that means that things are changing and constantly and there's like new ways and new patterns as people are exploring how to use it. And I think that trough of despair is typically figuring out incrementally what it actually is doing for you and what it's not going to solve for you, right, john, so like that's that trough of despair for a bit and then you realize, okay, this is where it fits potentially in my architecture and like anything, you have to make that trade off and you have to make that decision and accept the trade offs for that. But I think it has a lot of promise for, for compliance and security and all that good stuff. >>Yeah. It's like it's like the potentials, there's still a lot more potential than there is uh reality right now. I think it's like I feel like we're very early days and the idea of especially when you start getting into tooling that doesn't appreciate getups like you're using to get up to and use something else and that tool has no awareness of the concept so it doesn't flow well with all of the things you're trying to do and get um uh things that aren't state based and all that. So this is going to lead me to our first question from Camden asking dumb questions by the way. No dumb questions here. Um How is get apps? Not just another name for C. D. Anybody want to take that as an answer as a question. How is get up is not just another name for C. D. I have things but we can talk about it. I >>feel like we need victor foster kids. Yeah, sure you would have opinions. Yeah, >>I think it's a very yeah. One person replied said it's a very specific it's an opinionated version of cd. That's a great that's a great answer like that. Yeah. >>It's like an implement. Its it's an implementation of deployment if you want it if you want to use it for that. All right. I realize now it's kind of hard in terms of a physical panel and a virtual panel to figure out who on the panel is gonna, you know, ready to jump in to answer a question. But I'll take it. So um I'll um I'll do my best inner victor and say, you know, it's it's an implementation of C. D. And it's it's a choice right? It's one can just still do docker build and darker pushes and doctor pulls and that's fine. Or use other technologies to deploy containers and pods and change your, your kubernetes infrastructure. But get apps is a different implementation, a different method of doing that same thing at the end of the day. Yeah, >>I like it. I like >>it and I think that goes back to your point about, you know, it's kind of early days still, I think to me what I like about getups in that respect is it's nice to see kubernetes become a platform where people are experimenting with different ways of doing things, right? And so I think that encourages like lots of different patterns and overall that's going to be a good thing for the community because then more, you know, and not everything needs to settle in terms of only one way of doing things, but a lot of different ways of doing things helps people fit, you know, the tooling to their needs, or helps fit kubernetes to their needs, etcetera. Yeah, >>um I agree with that, the, so I'm gonna, since we're getting a load of good questions, so um one of the, one of the, one of the, I want to add to that real quick that one of the uh from the, we've people themselves, because I've had some on the show and one of things that I look at it is distinguishing is with continuous deployment tools, I sort of think that it's almost like previous generation and uh continuous deployment tools can be anything like we would consider Jenkins cd, right, if you if you had an association to a server and do a doctor pull and you know, dr up or dr composed up rather, or if it did a cube control apply uh from you know inside an ssh tunnel or something like that was considered considered C. D. Well get ops is much more rigid I think in terms of um you you need to apply, you have a specific repo that's all about your deployments and because of what tool you're using and that one your commit to a specific repo or in a specific branch that repo depends on how you're setting it up. That is what kicks off a workflow. And then secondly there's an understanding of state. So a lot of these tools now I have uh reconciliation where they they look at the cluster and if things are changing they will actually go back and to get and the robots will take over and will commit that. Hey this thing has changed um and you maybe you human didn't change it, something else might have changed it. So I think that's where getups is approaching it, is that ah we we need to we need to consider more than just a couple of commands that be runnin in a script. Like there needs to be more than that for a getups repo to happen anyway, that's just kind of the the take back to take away I took from a previous conversation with some people um >>we've I don't think that lost, its the last piece is really important, right? I think like for me, C d like Ci cd, they're more philosophical ideas, write a set of principles, right? Like getting an idea or a code change to environments promoting it. It's very kind of pipeline driven um and it's very imperative driven, right? Like our existing CD tools are a lot of the ways that people think about Cd, it would be triggered by an event, maybe a code push and then these other things are happening in sequence until they either fail or pass, right? And then we're done. Getups is very much sitting on the, you know, the reconciliation side, it's changing to a pull based model of reconciliation, right? Like it's very declarative, it's just looking at the state and it's automatically pulling changes when they happen, rather than this imperative trigger driven model. That's not to say that there aren't city tools which we're doing pull based or you can do pull based or get ups is doing anything creatively revolutionary here, but I think that's one of the main things that the ideas that are being introduced into those, like existing C kind of tools and pipelines, um certainly the pull based model and the reconciliation model, which, you know, has a lot in common with kubernetes and how those kind of controllers work, but I think that's the key idea. Yeah. >>Um This is a pretty specific one Tory asks, does anyone have opinions about get ops in a mono repo this is like this is getting into religion a little bit. How many repos are too many repose? How um any thoughts on that? Anyone before I rant, >>go >>for it, go for it? >>Yeah. How I'm using it right now in a monitor repo uh So I'm using GIT hub. Right, so you have what? The workflow and then inside a workflow? Yeah, mo file, I'll >>track the >>actual changes to the workflow itself, as well as a folder, which is basically some sort of service in Amman Arepa, so if any of those things changes, it'll trigger the actual pipeline to run. So that's like the simplest thing that I could figure out how to, you know, get it set up using um get hubs, uh workflow path future. Yeah. And it's worked for me for writing, you know? That's Yeah. >>Yeah, the a lot of these things too, like the mono repo discussion will, it's very tool specific. Each tool has various levels of support for branch branching and different repos and subdirectories are are looking at the defense and to see if there's changes in that specific directory. Yeah. Sorry, um john you're going to say something, >>I was just going to say, I've never really done it, but I imagine the same kind of downsides of mono repo to multiple report would exist there. I mean, you've got the blast radius issues, you've got, you know, how big is the mono repo? Do we have to pull does the tool have to pull that or cashier every time it needs to determine def so what is the support for being able to just look at directories versus you know, I think we can get way down into a deeper conversation. Maybe we'll save it for later on in the conversation about what we're doing. Get up, how do we structure our get reposed? We have super granular repo per environment, Perper out reaper, per cluster repo per whatever or do we have directories per environment or branches per environment? How how is everything organized? I think it's you know, it's going to be one of those, there's never one size fits all. I'll give the class of consultant like it depends answer. Right? >>Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to the code struggle because it depends. >>Right? >>Uh Yeah, it's similar to the to the code problem of teams trying to figure out how many repose for their code. Should they micro service, should they? Semi micro service, macro service. Like I mean, you know because too many repose means you're doing a bunch of repo management, a bunch of changes on your local system, you're constantly get pulling all these different things and uh but if you have one big repo then it's it's a it's a huge monolithic thing that you usually have to deal with. Path based issues of tools that only need to look at a specific directory and um yeah, it's a it's a culture, I feel like yeah, like I keep going back to this, it's a culture thing. Does your what is your team prefer? What do you like? What um what's painful for everyone and who's what's the loudest pain that you need to deal with? Is it is it repo management? That's the pain um or is it uh you know, is that that everyone's in one place and it's really hard to keep too many cooks out of the kitchen, which is a mono repo problem, you know? Um How do we handle security? So this is a great one from Tory again. Another great question back to back. And that's the first time we've done that um security as it pertains to get up to anyone who can commit can change the infrastructure. Yes. >>Yes. So the tooling that you have for your GIT repo and the authentication, authorization and permissions that you apply to the GIT repo using a get server like GIT hub or get lab or whatever your flavor of the day is is going to be how security is handled with respect to changes in your get ups configuration repository. So um that is completely specific to your implementation of that or ones implementation of of how they're handling that. Get repositories that the get ups tooling is looking at. To reconcile changes with respect to the permissions of the for lack of better term robot itself. Right? They get up tooling like flux or Argosy. D Um one kid would would create a user or a service account or uh other kind of authentication measures to limit the permissions for that service account that the Gaddafi's tooling needs to be able to read the repose and and send commits etcetera. So that is well within the realm of what you have already for your for your get your get um repo. Yeah. >>Yeah. A related question is from a g what they like about get apps if done nicely for a newbie it's you can get stuff done easily if you what they dislike about it is when you have too many get repose it becomes just too complicated and I agree. Um was making a joke with a team the other week that you know the developer used to just make one commit and they would pass pass it on to a QA team that would then eventually emerging in the master. But they made the commits to these feature branches or whatever. But now they make a commit, they make a pR there for their code then they go make a PR in the helm chart to update the thing to do that and then they go make a PR in the get ups repeal for Argo. And so we talked about that they're probably like four or five P. R. Is just to get their code in the production. But we were talking about the negative of that but the reality was It's just five or 4 or five prs like it wasn't five different systems that had five different methodologies and tooling and that. So I looked at it I was like well yeah that's kind of a pain in the get sense but you're also dealing with one type. It's a repetitive action but it's it's the one thing I don't have to go to five different systems with five different ways of doing it. And once in the web and one's on the client wants a command line that I don't remember. Um Yeah so it's got pros and cons I think when you >>I think when you get to the scale where those kind of issues are a problem then you're probably at the scale where you can afford to invest some time into automation into that. Right? Like what I've when I've seen this in larger customers or larger organizations if there ever at that stage where okay apps are coming up all the time. You know, there's a 10 X 100 X developer to operations folks who may be creating get repose setting up permissions then that stuff gets automated, right? Like, you know, maybe ticket based systems or whatever. Developers say I need a new app. It templates things or more often using the same model, right of reconciliation and operators and the horrific abuse of cogs that we're seeing in the communities community right now. Um You know, developers can create a crd which just says, hey, I'm creating a new app is called app A and then a controller will pick up that app a definition. It will go create a get a repo Programmatically it will add the right definitely will look up and held up the developers and the permissions that need to be able to get to that repo it will create and template automatically some name space and the clusters that it needs in the environments that it needs, depending on, you know, some metadata it might read. So I think, you know, those are definite problems and they're definitely like a teething, growing pain thing. But once you get to that scale, you kind of need to step back and say, well look, we just need to invest in time into the operational aspect of this and automating this pain away, I think. Yeah, >>yeah. And that ultimately ends in Yeah. Custom tooling, which it's hard to avoid it at scale. I mean, there's there's two, there's almost two conversations here, right. There is what I call the Solo admin Solo devops, I bought that domain Solo devops dot com because, you know, whenever I'm talking to dr khan in the real world, it's like I asked people to raise hands, I don't know how we can raise hands here, but I would ask people to raise hands and see how many of you here are. The sole person responsible for deploying the app that your team makes and like a quarter of the room would raise their hand. So I call that solo devops like those, that person can't make all the custom tooling in the world. So they really need dr like solutions where it's opinionated, the workflow is sort of built in and they don't have to wrangle things together with a bunch of glue, you know, in other words bash. Um and so this kind of comes to a conversation uh starting this question from lee he's asking how do you combine get ops with ci cd, especially the continuous bit. How do you avoid having a human uh sort of the complaint the team I was working with has, how do you avoid a human editing and get committing for every single deploy? They've settled on customized templates and a script for routine updates. So as a seed for this conference, this question I'm gonna ask you all uh instead of that specific question cause it's a little open ended. Um Tell me whether you agree with this. I I kind of look at the image, the image artifact because the doctor image or container image in general is an artifact that I I view it that way and that thing going into the registry with the right label or right part of the label. Um That tag rather not the label but the tag that to me is like one of the great demarche points of, we're kind of done with Ci and we're now into the deployment phase and it doesn't necessarily mean the tooling is a clear cut there, but that artifact being shipped in a specific way or promoted as we sometimes say. Um what do you think? Does anyone have opinions on that? I don't even know if that's the right opinion to have so mhm. >>So um I think what you're, what you're getting at is that get ups, models can trigger off of different events um to trigger the reconciliation loop. And one way to do that is if the image, if it notices a image change in the registry, the other is if there's a commit event on a specific rebo and branch and it's up to, you are up to the person that's implementing their get ups model, what event to trigger there, that reconciliation loop off of, You can do both, you can do one or the other. It also depends on the Templeton engine that you're using on top of um on top of kubernetes, such as helm or um you know, the other ones that are out there or if you're not even doing that, then, you know straight. Yeah, mo um so it kind of just depends, but those are the typically the two options one has and a combination of of those to trigger that event. You can also just trigger it manually, right? You can go into the command line and force a a, you know, a really like a scan or a new reconciliation loop to occur. So it kind of just, I don't want to say this, but it depends on what you're trying to do and what makes sense in your pipeline. Right? So if you're if you're set up where you are tag, if you're doing it based off of image tags, then you probably want to use get ups in a way that you're using the image tags. Right. And the pattern that you've established there, if you're not really doing that and you're more around, like, different branches are mapped to different environments, then triggered off of the correct branch. And that's where the permissions also come into play. Where if you don't want someone to touch production and you've got your getups for your production cluster based off of like uh you know, a main branch, then whoever can push a change to that main branch has the authority to push that change to production. Right? So that's your authentication and permissions um system same for the registry itself. Right. So >>Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, anyone else have any thoughts on that? I was about to go to the next topic, >>I was going to say. I think certain tools dictate the approach, like, if you're using Argosy d it's I think I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only way to use it right now is just through image modification. Like, the manifest changes, it looks at a specific directory and anything changes then it will do its thing. And uh Synchronize the cost there with whatever's and get >>Yeah, flux has both. Yeah, and flux has both. So it it kind of depends. I think you can make our go do that too, but uh this is back to what we were saying in the beginning, uh you know, these things are changing, right? So that might be what it is right now in terms of triggering the reconciliation loops and get ups, tooling, but there might be other events in the future that might trigger it, and it's not completely stand alone because you still need you're tooling to do any kind of testing or whatever you have in terms of like the specific pipeline. So oftentimes you're bolting in getups into some other part of broader Cfd solution. That makes sense. Yeah, >>we've got a lot of questions about secrets or people that are asking about secrets. >>So my my tongue and cheek answered the secrets question was, what's the best practices for kubernetes? Secrets? That's the same thing for secrets with good apps? Uh getups is not last time I checked and last time I was running this stuff get ups is not has nothing to do with secrets in that sense. It's just there to get your stuff running on communities. So, um there's probably a really good session on secrets at dr concept. I >>would agree with you, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, get off stools, I mean every every project of mine handles secrets differently. Uh huh. And I think I'm not sure if it was even when I was talking to but talking to someone recently that I'm very bullish on get up actions, I love get up actions, it's not great for deployments yet, but we do have this new thing and get hub environments, I think it's called. So it allows me at least the store secrets per environment, which it didn't have the concept of that before, which you know, if you if any of you running kubernetes out there, you typically end up when you start running kubernetes, you end up with more than one kubernetes, like you're going to end up with a lot of clusters at some point, at least many multiple, more than two. Um and so if you're trying to store secret somewhere, you do have and there's a discussion happening in chat right now where people are talking about um sealed secrets which if you haven't heard of that, go look that up and just be versed on what sealed secrets is because it's a it's a fantastic concept for how to store secrets in the public. Um I love it because I'm a big P. K. I nerd but um it's not the only way and it doesn't fit all models. So I have clients that use A W. S. Secrets because they're in A W. S. And then they just have to use the kubernetes external secret. But again like like like normal sand, you know, it's that doesn't really affect get ops, get ops is just applying whatever helm charts or jahmal or images that you're, you're you're deploying, get off. It was more about the approach of when the changes happen and whether it's a push or pull model like we're talking about and you know, >>I would say there's a bunch of prerequisites to get ups secrets being one of them because the risk of you putting a secret into your git repo if you haven't figured out your community secrets architecture and start diving into getups is high and removing secrets from get repose is you know, could be its own industry, right. It's >>a thing, >>how do >>I hide this? How do I obscure this commit that's already now on a dozen machines. >>So there are some prerequisites in terms of when you're ready to adopt get up. So I think is the right way of saying the answer to that secrets being one of them. >>I think the secrets was the thing that made me, you know, like two or three years ago made me kind of see the ah ha moment when it came to get ups which, which was that the premier thing that everyone used to say about get up about why it was great. Was its the single source of truth. There's no state anywhere else. You just need to look at git. Um and then secrets may be realized along with a bunch of other things down the line that is not true and will never be true. So as soon as you can lose the dogmatism about everything is going to be and get it's fantastic. As long as you've understood everything is not going to get. There are things which will absolutely never be and get some tools just don't deal with that. They need to earn their own state, especially in communities, some controls on their own state. You know, cuz sealed secrets and and other projects like SOps and I think there are two or three others. That's a great way of dealing with secrets if you want to keep them in get. But you know, projects like vault more kind of like what I would say, production grade secret strategies. Right? And if you're in AWS or a cloud, you're more likely to be using their secrets. Your secret policy is maybe not dictated by you in large organizations might be dictated by CSO or security or Great. Like I think once if you, if you're trying to adopt getups or you're thinking about it, get the dogmatism of get as a single point of truth out of your mind and think about getups more as a philosophy and a set of best practice principles, then you will be in much better stead, >>right? Yeah. >>People are asking more questions in chat like infrastructure as code plus C d essentially get ups or C I rather, um, these are all great questions and a part of the debate, I'm actually just going to throw up on screen. I'm gonna put this in chat, but this is, this is to me the source, Right? So we worked with when they coined the term. We, a lot of us have been trying to get, if we talk about the history for a minute and then tell me if I'm getting this right. Um, a lot of us were trying to automate all these different parts of the puzzle, but a lot of them, they, some things might have been infrastructure as code. Some things weren't, some things were sort of like settings is coded, like you're going to Jenkins and type in secrets and settings or type in a certain thing in the settings of Jenkins and then that it wasn't really in get and so what we was trying to go for was a way to have almost like eventually a two way state understanding where get might change your infrastructure but then your infrastructure might also change and needs to be reflected in the get if the get is trying to be the single source of truth. Um and like you're saying the reality is that you're never gonna have one repo that has all of your infrastructure in it, like you would have to have, you have to have all your terra form, anything else you're spinning up. Right. Um but anyway, I'm gonna put this link in chat. So this guide actually, uh one of things they talk about is what it's not, so it's, it's kind of great to read through the different requirements and like what I was saying well ago um mhm. Having having ci having infrastructure as code and then trying a little bit of continuous deployment out, it's probably a prerequisite. Forget ops so it's hard to just jump into that when you don't already have infrastructure as code because a machine doing stuff on your behalf, it means that you have to have things documented and somewhere and get repo but let me put this in the in the >>chitty chat, I would like to know if the other panelists agree, but I think get apps is a okay. I would say it's a moderate level, it's not a beginner level communities thing, it's like a moderate level advanced, a little bit more advanced level. Um One can start off using it but you definitely have to have some pre recs in place or some understanding of like a pattern in place. Um So what do the other folks think about that opinion? >>I think if you're if you're trying to use get out before, you know what problem you have, you're probably gonna be in trouble. Right. It's like having a solution to it probably don't have yet. Mhm. Right. I mean if if you're just evil or and you're just typing, keep control apply, you're one person right, Get off. It doesn't seem like a big a big jump, like, I mean it doesn't like why would I do that? I'm just, I'm just gonna inside, it's the type of get commit right, I'm typing Q control apply. But I think one of the rules from we've is none of your developers and none of your admins can have cute control access to the cluster because if you can't, if you do have access and you can just apply something, then that's just infrastructure as code. That's just continuous deployment, that's, that's not really get ops um, getups implies that the only way things get into the cluster is through the get up, get automation that you're using with, you know, flux Argo, we haven't talked about, what's the other one that Victor Farsi talks about, by the way people are asking about victor, because victor would love to talk about this stuff, but he's in my next life, so come back in an hour and a half or whatever and victor is going to be talking about sys, admin list with me. Um >>you gotta ask him nothing but get up questions in the next, >>confuse them, confuse them. But anyway, that, that, that's um, it's hard, it's hard to understand and without having tried it, I think conceptually it's a little challenging >>one thing with getups, especially based off the we've works blog post that you just put up on there. It's an opinionated way of doing something. Uh you know, it's an opinionated way of of delivering changes to an environment to your kubernetes environment. So it's opinionated were often not used to seeing things that are very opinionated in this sense, in the in the ecosystem, but get apps is a opinionated thing. It's it's one way of doing it. Um there are ways to change it and like there are options um like what we were talking about in terms of the events that trigger, but the way that it's structured is an opinion opinionated way both from like a tooling perspective, like using get etcetera, but also from a devops cultural perspective, right? Like you were talking about not having anyone access cube control and changing the cluster directly. That's a philosophical opinion that get ups forces you to adopt otherwise. It kind of breaks the model and um I just I want everyone to just understand that. That is very opinion, anything in that sense. Yeah, >>polygamy is another thing. Infrastructure as code. Um someone's mentioning plummy and chat, I just had actually my life show self plug bread that live go there. I'm on Youtube every week. I did the same thing. These these are my friends um and had palami on two weeks ago uh last week, remember uh and it was in the last couple of weeks and we talked about their infrastructure as code solution. Were actually writing code instead of um oh that's an interesting take on uh developer team sort of owning coding the infrastructure through code rather than Yamil as a data language. I don't really have an opinion on it yet because I haven't used it in production or anything in the real real world, but um, I'm not sure how much they are applying trying to go towards the get up stuff. I will do a plug for Solomon hikes. Who has a, the beginning of the day, it's already happened so you can go back and watch it. It's a, it's a, what's it called? Q. Rethinking application delivery with Q. And build kit. So go look this up. This is the found co founder of Dr and former CTO Solomon hikes at the beginning of the day. He has a tool called dagger. I'm not sure why the title of the talk is delivering with Q. And built it, but the tool is showing off in there for an hour is called dagger. And it's, it's an interesting idea on how to apply a lot of this opinionated automated stuff to uh, to deployment and it's get off space and you use Q language. It's a graph language. I watched most of it and it was a really interesting take. I'm excited to see if that takes off and if they try that because it's another way that you can get a little bit more advanced with your you're get deployments and without having to just stick everything in Yemen, which is kind of what we're in today with helm charts and what not. All right. More questions about secrets, I think. I think we're not going to have a whole lot of more, a lot more about secrets basically. Uh put secrets in your cluster to start with and kubernetes in encrypted, you know, thing. And then, you know, as it gets harder, then you have to find another solution when you have five clusters, you don't wanna have to do it five times. That's when you have to go for Walton A W. S secrets and all >>that. Right? I'm gonna post it note. Yeah. Crm into the cluster. Just kidding. >>Yes, there are recordings of this. Yes, they will be later. Uh, because we're that these are all gonna be on youtube later. Um, yeah, detects secrets cushion saying detect secrets or get Guardian are absolute requirements. I think it's in reference to your secrets comment earlier. Um, Camels asking about Cuban is dropping support for Docker that this is not the place to ask for that, but it, it is uh, basically it's a Nonevent Marantz has actually just created that same plug in available in a different repos. So if you want to keep using Docker and kubernetes, you know, you can do it like it's no big deal. Most of us aren't using doctor in our communities anyway, so we're using like container D or whatever is provided to us by our provider. Um yeah, thank you so much for all these comments. These are great people helping each other and chat. I feel like we're just here to make sure the chats available so people can help each other. >>I feel like I want to pick up on something when you mentioned pollux me, I think there's a um we're talking about getups but I think in the original like the origination of that I guess was deploying applications to clusters right, picking up deployment manifest. But I think with the gloomy and I obviously terra form and things have been around a long time, folks are starting to apply this I think I found one earlier which was like um kub stack the Terror Forms get ups framework. Um but also with the advent of things like cluster A. P. I. Um in the Cuban at the space where you can declare actively build the infrastructure for your clusters and build the cluster right? We're not just talking about deploying applications, the cluster A. P. I will talk to a W. S. Spin up, VPc spin up machines, you know, we'll do the same kind of things that terra form does and and those other tools do I think applying getups principles to the infrastructure spin up right, the proper infrastructure as code stuff, constantly applying Terror form um you know, plans and whatever, constantly applying cluster Api resources spinning up stuff in those clouds. That's a super interesting. Um you know, extension of this area, I'd be curious to see if what the folks think about that. >>Yeah, that's why I picked this topic is one of my three. Uh I got I got to pick the topics. I was like the three things that there like the most bleeding edge exciting. Most people haven't, we haven't basically we haven't figured all this out yet. We as an industry, so um it's I think we're gonna see more ideas on it. Um what's the one with the popsicle as the as the icon victor talks about all the time? It's not it's another getups like tool, but it's um it's getups for you use this kubernetes limit and then we have to look it up, >>You're talking about cross plane. >>So >>my >>wife is over here with the sound effects and the first sound effect of the day that she chooses to use is one. >>All right, can we pick it? Let's let's find another question bret >>I'm searching >>so many of them. All right, so uh I think one really quick one is getups only for kubernetes, I think the main to tooling to tools that we're talking about, our Argosy D and flux and they're mostly geared toward kubernetes deployments but there's a, it seems like they're organized in a way that there's a clean abstraction in with respect to the agent that's doing the deployment and the tooling that that can interact with. So I would imagine that in the future and this might be true already right now that get ups could be applied to other types of deployments at some point in the future. But right now it's mostly focused and treats kubernetes as a first class citizen or the tooling on top of kubernetes, let's say something like how as a first class citizen? Yeah, to Brett, >>to me the field, back to you bret the thing I was looking for is cross plane. So that's another tool. Um Victor has been uh sharing a lot about it in Youtube cross plane and that is basically runs inside a kubernetes, but it handles your other infrastructure besides your app. It allows you to like get ops, you're a W. S stuff by using the kubernetes state engine as a, as a way to manage that. And I have not used it yet, but he does some really great demos on Youtube. So people are liking this idea of get off, so they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage state? How do we uh because the probably terra form is that, well, there's many problems, but it's always a lot of problems, but in the get outs world it's not quite the right fit yet, It might be, but you still, it's still largely as expected for people to, you know, like type the command, um, and it keeps state locally the ss, clouds and all that. And but the other thing is I'm I'm now realizing that when I saw the demo from Solomon, I'm going back to the Solomon hikes thing. He was using the demo and he was showing it apply deploying something on S three buckets, employing internet wifi and deploying it on google other things beyond kubernetes and saying that it's all getups approach. So I think we're just at the very beginning of seeing because it all started with kubernetes and now there's a swarm one, you can look up swarm, get office and there's a swarm, I can't take the name of it. Swarm sink I think is what's called swarm sink on git hub, which allows you to do swarm based getups like things. And now we're seeing these other tools coming out. They're saying we're going to try to do the get ups concepts, but not for kubernetes specifically and that's I think, you know, infrastructure as code started with certain areas of the world and then now then now we all just assume that you're going to have an infrastructure as code way of doing whatever that is and I think get off is going to have that same approach where pretty soon, you know, we'll have get apps for all the clouds stuff and it won't just be flexor Argo. And then that's the weird thing is will flex and Argo support all those things or will it just be focused on kubernetes apps? You know, community stuff? >>There's also, I think this is what you're alluding to. There is a trend of using um kubernetes and see rDS to provision and control things that are outside of communities like the cloud service providers services as if they were first class entities within kubernetes so that you can use the kubernetes um focus tooling for things that are not communities through the kubernetes interface communities. Yeah, >>yeah, even criticism. >>Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to say that sounds like cross plane. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that's uh there were, you know, for the last couple of years, it's been flux and are going back and forth. Um they're like frenemies, you know, and they've been going back and forth with iterating on these ideas of how do we manage this complicated thing? That is many kubernetes clusters? Um because like Argo, I don't know if the flux V two can do this, but Argo can manage multiple clusters now from one cluster, so your, you can manage other clusters, technically external things from a single entity. Um Originally flux couldn't do that, but I'm going to say that V two can, I don't actually >>know. Um I think all that is gonna, I think that's going to consolidate in the future. All right. In terms of like the common feature set, what Iver and john what do you think? >>I mean, I think it's already begun, right, I think haven't, didn't they collaborate on a common engine? I don't know whether it's finished yet, but I think they're working towards a common getups engine and then they're just going to layer on features on top. But I think, I mean, I think that's interesting, right, because where it runs and where it interacts with, if we're talking about a pull based model, it shouldn't, it's decentralized to a certain extent, right? We need get and we need the agent which is pulling if we're saying there's something else which is orchestrating something that we start to like fuzzy the model even right. Like is this state living somewhere else, then I think that's just interesting as well. I thought flux was completely decentralized, but I know you install our go somewhere like the cargo has a server as well, but it's been a while since I've looked in depth at them. But I think the, you know, does that muddy the agent only pull model? >>I'm reading a >>Yeah, I would say that there's like a process of natural selection going on as as the C. N. C. F. Landscape evolves and grows bigger and a lot of divide and conquer right now. But I think as certain things kind of get more prominent >>and popular, I think >>it starts to trend and it inspires other things and then it starts to aggregate and you know, kind of get back into like a unified kind of like core. Maybe like for instance, cross plane, I feel like it shouldn't even really exist. It should be, it like it's a communities add on, but it should be built in, it should be built into kubernetes, like why doesn't this exist already >>for like controlling a cloud? >>Yeah, like just, you know, having this interface with the cloud provider and be able to Yeah, >>exactly. Yeah, and it kinda, you're right. That kinda happens because you do, I mean when you start talking about storage providers and networking providers was very specific implementations of operators or just individual controllers that do operate and control other resources in the cloud, but certainly not universally right. Not every feature of AWS is available to kubernetes out of the box. Um and you know, it, one of the challenges across plane is you gotta have kubernetes before you can deploy kubernetes. Like there's a chicken and egg issue there where if you're going to use, if you're going to use our cross plane for your other infrastructure, but it's gotta, but it has to run on kubernetes who creates that first kubernetes in order for you to put that on there. And victor talks about one of his videos, the same problem with flux and Argo where like Argo, you can't deploy Argo itself with getups. There has to be that initial, I did a thing with, I'm a human and I typed in some commands on a server and things happened but they don't really have an easy deployment method for getting our go up and running using simply nothing but a get push to an existing system. There's something like that. So it's a it's an interesting problem of day one infrastructure which is again only day one, I think data is way more interesting and hard, but um how can we spend these things up if they're all depending on each other and who is the first one to get started? >>I mean it's true of everything though, I mean at the end of that you need some kind of big bang kind of function too, you know, I started running start everything I >>think without going over that, sorry, without going off on a tangent. I was, I was gonna say there's a, if folks have heard of kind which is kubernetes and Docker, which is a mini kubernetes cluster, you can run in a Docker container or each container will run as a as a node. Um you know, that's been a really good way to spin up things like clusters. KPI because they boot strap a local kind, install the manifests, it will go and spin up a fully sized cluster, it will transfer its resources over there and then it will die itself. Right? So that, that's kind of bootstrapping itself. And I think a couple of folks in the community, Jason to Tiberius, I think he works for Quinyx metal um has, has experimented with like an even more minimal just Api server, so we're really just leveraging the kubernetes ideas of like a reconciliation loop and a controller. We just need something to bootstrap with those C R D s and get something going and then go away again. So I think that's gonna be a pattern that comes up kind of more and more >>Yeah, for sure. Um, and uh, the next, next quick answer to the question, Angel asked what your thoughts on getups being a niche to get or versus others vcs tools? Well, if I knew anyone who is using anything other than get, I would say no, you know, get ops is a horrible name. It should just be CVS office, but that doesn't or vcs ops or whatever like that, but that doesn't roll off the tongue. So someone had to come up with the get ups phrase. Um but absolutely, it's all about version control solutions used for infrastructure, not code. Um might get doctor asks a great question, we're not gonna have time for it, but maybe people can reply and chat with what they think but about infrastructure and code, the lines being blurred and that do develop, how much of infrastructure does developer do developers need to know? Essentially, they're having to know all the things. Um so unfortunately we've had way more questions like every panel here today with all the great community, we've got way more questions we can handle in this time. So we're gonna have to wrap it up and say goodbye. Go to the next live panel. I believe the next one is um on developer, developer specific setups that's gonna be peter running that panel. Something about development in containers and I'm sure it's gonna be great. Just like this one. So let's go around the room where can people find you on the internet? I'm at Brett fisher on twitter. That's where you can usually find me most days you are? >>Yeah, I'm on twitter to um, I'll put it in the chat. It's kind of confusing because the TSR seven. >>Okay. Yeah, that's right. You can't just say it. You can also look at the blow of the video and like our faces are there and if you click on them, it tells you our twitter in Arlington and stuff, john >>John Harris 85, pretty much everywhere. Get hub Twitter slack, etc. >>Yeah >>and normal, normal faults or just, you know, living on Youtube live with Brett. >>Yeah, we're all on the twitter so go check us out there and thank you so much for joining. Uh thank you so much to you all for being here. I really appreciate you taking time in your busy schedule to join me for a little chit chat. Um Yes, all the, all the cheers, yes. >>And I think this kid apps loop has been declarative lee reconciled. >>Yeah, there we go. And with that ladies and gentlemen, uh bid you would do, we will see you in the next, next round coming up next with Peter >>bye.

>> Hey, welcome back already, Jeffrey. Here with the Cube, we are high Top San Francisco in the Salesforce Tower and the brand new A century's Thean Novation hub opened up, I don't know. Six months ago or so, we were here for the opening. It's a really spectacular space with a really cool Cinderella stare. So if you come, make sure you check that out. We're talking about a cloud in the evolution of cloud and hybrid cloud. And clearly two players that are right in the middle is helping customers get through this journey and do these migrations. Our center and h. P. E s were excited to have our next guest, Melissa Bessie. She is the managing director, Intelligent cloud and infrastructure strategic partnerships at a center. Melissa. Welcome. And joining us from HP is David Stone. He's the VP of ecosystem sales. They have a great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's just jump into it. The cloud discussion has taken over for the last 10 years, but it's really continuing to evolve. It was kind of this this new entrance with aws kind of coming on the scene. One of the great lines of Jeff Basil's talks about is they had no competition for seven years. Nobody recognized that the the bookseller out on the left hand ah, edges coming in to take the river structure business. But as things have moved to Public Cloud, now there's hybrid cloud. No, no. All applications or work clothes are right for a public cloud. So now, while the enterprises are trying to figure this out, they want to make their moves. But it's complicated. So first of all, let's talk about some of the vocabulary hybrid cloud versus multi cloud one of those terms mean to you and your customers started Melissa. >> Sure. So when you think of multi cloud, right, we're seeing a big convergence of I would say multi Kludd operating model that really has to integrate across all the clouds. So you have your public cloud providers. You have your sass like, uh, sales force at work day, you have your pass right? And so when you think of multi cloud, any customers goingto have a plethora of all of these types of clouds and really being able to manage across those becomes critical. When you think of hybrid cloud hybrid cloud is really thinking about the placement of ill. We usually look at it from a data perspective, right? Are you going to put your data in the public or in the private space? And so you can't look at it from that perspective, and it really enables that data movement across both of those clouds. >> So what would you see? David and your, uh, your customers? I say that a >> lot of the customers that we see today or confused right the people who have gone to the public cloud have scratched their heads and said, Jeez, what do I do? It's not as cheap as I thought it was gonna be. So the ones who were early adopters or confused the ones who haven't moved yet are really scratching their head as well, Right, because if you don't have the right strategy, you'll end up getting boxed in. You'll pay a ton of money to get your data in, and you'll pay a ton of money to get your data out. And so all of our customers, you know, want the right hybrid strategy, and I think that's where the market and I know a center and HPD clearly see them, the market really becoming a hybrid world. >> It's interesting, Melissa, You said it's based on the data, and you just talked about moving data in and out where we more often hear it talked about workload. This kind of horses for courses, you know, it's a workload specific should be deployed in this particular kind of infrastructure configuration. But you both mentioned data, and there's a lot of conversation kind of pre cloud about data, gravity and how expensive it is to move the date and the age old thing. Do you move the compute to the data, or do you move the data to the compute? A lot of advantages if you have that data in the cloud, but you're highlighting a couple of the ah, the real negatives in terms of potential cost implications. And we didn't even get into regulations and some of the other things that drive workloads to stay in the data center. So how should people start thinking about these variables when they're trying to figure out what to do next? >> Ex enters position Definitely like when we started off on our hybrid cloud journey was to capture the workload and once you have that workload you could really balance. It's the public benefits of speed, innovation and consumption with the private benefits of actually regulation, data, gravity and performance. Right? And so our whole approach and big bet has been able is been to basically we had really good leading public capabilities because we got into the market early. But we knew our customers were not going to be able to migrate their entire estate over to public. And so in doing that, we we said, OK, if we create a hybrid capability that is highly automated, that is consumed like public, Um and that is standard. We'd be able to offer our customers a weight of pick, really the right workload in the right place at the right price. And that was really what? Our whole goal waas. >> Yeah, and so just the Adama Melissa said, I think we also think about at least, uh, you know, keeping the data in a place where you want but then being cloud adjacent. So getting in the right data centers and we often use the cloud saying to bring the cloud to the data right? So if you have the right hybrid strategy. You put the data where it makes the most sense where you want to maintain the security and privacy. Ah, but then have access to the AP eyes and whatever else you might need to get the full advantages of the public cloud. >> Yeah, and we hear a lot of the data center providers like quinyx and stuff talking about features like Direct Connect and Noted Toe have this proximity between the public cloud and the and the stuff that's in your private cloud so that you do have no low latent see, and you can when you do have to move things or you do need to access that data. It's not so far away. Um, I'm curious about the impact of companies like Salesforce with Salesforce Tower here in San Francisco at the Centre Offices and Office 3 65 and Work Day on how kind of the adoption of the SAS applications have changed. The conversation about Cloud or what's important and not important, needs to be security. I don't trust eating outside my data center Now, one might argue that public clouds are more secure in some ways than in private cloud. You have disgruntled employees per se running around the data centers on plugging things. So how? How is the adoption of things like Officer 65? Clearly, Microsoft's leverage that in a big way to grow their own cloud presence changed the conversation about what's good about Cloud. What's not good about Chlo? Why should we move in this direction? But if you have thought >> no, look, it's a great question, and I think if you think about that, his Melissa said, the use cases right and Microsoft is have sex. Feli successfully pivoted their business to it as a service model, right? And so what I think it's done is it's opened up innovation, and a lot of the sales forces of the world have adapted their business models. And that's truly to your point, a sass based offer. And so when you could do a work day or a salesforce dot com implementation shirt, it's been built that it's tested and everything else I think, what then becomes the bigger question in the bigger challenges. Most companies air sitting on 1000 applications that have been built over time, and what do you do with those? And so in many cases, you need to be connected to those SAS space providers. But you need the right hybrid strategy again. To be able to figure out how to connect those SAS based service is to whatever you're gonna do with those 1000 workloads and those 1000 workloads running on different things that you need the right strategy to figure out where to put the actual workloads and is people they're trying to go. I know one of the questions that comes up is Do you my grade or do you modernize? And so as people put that strategy together, I think how you tied to those SAS based service is clearly ties into your hybrid strategy, >> I would agree. And so, as David mentioned, right, that's where the clouded Jason see, you're seeing a lot of blur between public and private. I mean, Google's providing bare metal is a service, so it is actually dedicated hybrid cloud capabilities. Right? So you're seeing a lot of everyone. And as as David talked about all of the surrounding applications around your s a P around Oracle, when we created our ex enter hyper cloud, we were going after the enterprise workload. But there is a lot of legacy and other ones that need that data and or the sales force data, whatever the data is right and really be able to utilize it when they need to in a real low leagues. >> So let's I want to get unpacked. The ah central hybrid cloud. Um, what is that exactly is that is that your guys own cloud is, you know, kind of a solution set. I've heard that mentioned a couple of times. So what is the centre? Hyper cloud? >> So eccentric hybrid cloud was a big bet we made as we saw the convergence of multi cloud. We really said, We know we everything is not gonna go public and in some cases it's all coming back. And so customers really needed a way to look at all of their workloads, right? Because part of the issue with the getting the cost of the benefits out of public is the workload goes. But you really don't earn able to get out of the data center. We terminate the wild animal park because there's a lot of applications that right Are you going to modernize? Are you goingto let them to end of life? so there's a lot of things you have to consider to truly exit a data center strategy. And so its center hybrid cloud is actually a big bet we made. It is a highly automated, standard private cloud capability that really augments all of the leading capability we had in the cloud area. It is it's differentiated women, a big bet with HP. It's differentiated on its hardware. One of the reasons when we're going after the enterprise was they need large compute. They have large computer and large storage requirements, and what we were able to dio is when we created this used some of our automation differentiation. We have actually a client that we had an existing Io environment. We were actually able to achieve some significant benefits just from the automation. We got 50% in the provisioning of applications. We got 40% in the provisioning in the V m on, and we were able to take a lot of what I'll call the manual tasks and down Thio. It was like 62% reduction in the effort as well as a 33% savings overall in getting things production ready. So this capability is highly automated. It will actually repeat the provisioning at the application level because we're going after the enterprise workloads and it will create these. It's an asset that came from the government. So it's highly secured. Um, and it really was able to preserve. I think, what our customer needed and being able to span that public private capability they need out there in the hybrid world. >> Yeah, you could say I don't know that there's enough talk aboutthe complexity of the management in these worlds. Nobody ever wants to talk about writing this a sideman piece of the software, right? It's all about the core functionality. Let's shift gears a little bit. Talk about HBC. A lot of conversation about high performance computing, a lot going on with a I and machine learning now, which you know most of those benefits are going to be realized in a specific application, right? It's a machine learning or artificial intelligence apply to a specific application. So again, you guys big, big iron and been making big iron for ah, long time. What is this kind of hybrid cloud open up in terms of HB Ito have the big, heavy big heavy metal instead it and still have kind of the agility and flexibility of a cloud type of infrastructure. >> Yeah, no, I think it's a great question. I think if you think about what HB strategy has been in this area and high performance compute, we bought the company SG eye on. As you've seen, the announcements were hopefully gonna close on the Kree acquisition as well. And so we see in the world of the data continuing to expand in huge volumes, the need to have incredible horsepower to drive that associated with it. Now all of this really requires Where's your data being created and where's it actually being consumed? And so you need to have the right edge to cloud strategy and everything. And so in many cases, you need enough compute at the edge to be able to compute in do stuff in real time. But in many cases, you need to feed all that data back into ah, Mother Cloud or some sort of mother HP, you know, e type of high performance, confused environment that can actually run the more advanced a I in machine learning type of applications to really get the insights and tune the algorithms and then push some of those AP eyes and applications back to the edge. So it's it's an area of huge investment. It's an area where because of the late and see, uh, and you know things like autonomous driving and things like that. You can't put all that stuff into the public cloud. But you need the public cloud or you need cloud type capability if you will have able to compute and make the right decisions at the right time. So it's about having the right computer technology at the right place at the right time. The right cost and the right perform a >> lot of rights. Yeah, good opportunity for a center. So I mean, it's it's funny as we talk about hybrid cloud and and that kind of new new verbs around Cloud and cloud like things is where we're gonna see the same thing. Kind of the edge, the edge versus the data center comparison in terms of where the data is, where the processing is because it's gonna be this really dynamic situation, and how much can you push out? I was like the edge because there was no air conditioning a lot of times, and the power might not be that grade. And maybe connectivity is a little bit limited. So, you know, EJ offers a whole bunch of different challenges that you can control for in a data center. But it is going to be this crazy kind of hybrid world there, too, in terms of where the allocation of those resource is. Are you guys getting deeper into that model, Melissa? >> So we're definitely working with HP again to create some of all call it our edge. Manage. Service is again going back to what we're saying about the data, right? We saw the centralization of data with a cloud with the initial entrance into the cloud. Now we're seeing the decentralization of that data back out to the edge. Um, with that right in these hybrid cloud models, you're really going to need. They require a lot of high performance compute, especially for certain industries, right? If you take a look at gas, oil and exploration, if you look at media processing right, all of these need to be able to do that. One of the things and depending on where it's located, if it's on the edge. How you're gonna feed back the data as we talked about. And so we're looking at How do you take this foundation? Right. This all colonic center hybrid. Um, architecture. I take that and play that intermediate role. I'm gonna call it intermediary. Right, Because you really need a really good you know, global data map. You need a good supply chain, right? Really? To make sure that the data, no matter where it's coming from, is going to be available for that application at the right time, with right, the ability to do it at speed. And so all of these things air factors as we look at our hole ex center, hybrid cloud strategy, right? And being able to manage that EJ decor and then back out to cloud exactly >> right. And I wonder if you could share some stories because the value proposition I think around cloud is significantly shifted for those who are paying attention, right? It's not about cost. It's not about cost savings. I mean, there's a lot of that in there, and that's good. But really, the opportunity is about speed, speed and innovation and enabling more innovation across your enterprise. with more people having more access to more data to build more APS and really to react. Are people getting that or they still the customer still kind of encumbered by this this kind of transition phase. They're still trying to sort it out. Or do they get it? That that really this opportunity is about speed, Speed, speed? No, >> go ahead. I mean, we use a phrase first offices here. No cloud, right. So to your point, you know, how do you figure out the right strategy? But I think within that you you get what's the right application and how do you fit it into the overall strategy of what you're trying to do? >> And I think the other thing that we're seeing is, um, you know, customers are trying to figure that out. We have a whole right. When you start with that application map, you know, there could be 500 to 1000 workloads, write applications. And how are you going to some? You're gonna retain some? You're gonna retire some. You're gonna reap age. You're gonna re factor for the cloud or for your private cloud capability. Whatever it is you're going to be looking at doing? Um, I think, you know, we're seeing early adopters like even the papers killers themselves, right? They recognize the speed. So, you know, we're working with Google. For instance. They wanted to get into the bare metal as a service capability. Write them, actually building it. Getting it out to market would take so much longer. We already had this whole ex center hybrid cloud architecture that was cloud adjacent, so we had sub millisecond latency, and so their loved ones, Right? Everyone's figuring out that utilizing all of these, I'll call it platforms and pre book capabilities. Many of our partners have them as well is really allowing them that innovation, get products to market sooner, be able to respond to their customers because it is, as we talked about this multi cloud were lots of things that you have to manage if you can get pieces from multiple plate, you know, from a partner right that can provide Maur of the service is that you need it really enables the management of right, >> right, So gonna wrap it up. I won't give you the last word in terms of what's the what's the most consistent blind spot that you see when you're first engaging with a customer who's who's relatively early on this journey that that they miss that you see over and over and over. And you're like, you know, these are some of the things you really gotta think about that they haven't thought about >> Yeah, so for me, I think it's the cloud isn't about a destination. It's about an experience. And so how do you get you talked about the operations? But how do you provide that overall experience? I like to use a simple analogy that if you and I needed a car for five or 10 or 15 minutes, you go get a new bir. Uh, because it's easy. It's quick. If you need a car for a couple days to do a rent a car, we need a car for a year. You might do at least you need a car for 34 years. You probably buy it right. And so if you use that analogy and think whom I need a workload or in the application for 56 years putting something out, persistent workload that you know about on a public cloud, maybe the right answer, but it might be a lot more cost prohibitive. But if you need something that you can stand up in five minutes and shut right back down, the public cloud is absolutely the right way to go is long as you can deal with the security requirements and stuff. So if you think you think about what are the actual requirements, is it costs is a performance. You've talked about speed and everything else it really trying to figure out you get an experience and the only experience that can really hit you. What you need to do today is a having the right hybrid strategy and every company and a century was out way in front of the market on Public Cloud, and now they've come to the realization, and so has many other places. The world is going to be hybrid, and it's gonna be multi cloud. And as long as you can have an experience and a partner that can manage, you know, help you to find the right path, you'll be on the right journey. >> I think the blinds, but we run into is it does start off as a cost savings activity, and they're really. It really is so much more about how you're going to manage that enterprise workload. How are we gonna worry about the data? Are you gonna have access to it? Are you gonna be able to make it fluid, right. The whole essence of cloud, right? What? It What it disrupted was the I thought that something had to stay in one place, right? And that you were the real time decisions were being made where things needed to happen. Now, through all the different clouds as well as that, you had to own it yourself, right? I mean, everyone always thought Okay, uh, I'll take all of the I T. Department. Very protective of everything that wanted to keep. Now it's about saying, All right, how do I utilize the best of each of these multi clouds to stand up? What? I'll call what their core capability is as a customer, right? Are they do in the next chip design or hey, you know, doing financial market models right? That requires a high performance capability, right? So when you start to think about all of this stuff, right, that's the true power. Is is having a strategy that looks at those outcomes. What am I trying to achieve in getting my products and service is to market and touching the car customers I need versus Oh, I'm gonna move this out to an infrastructure because that's what God will save me. Money, Right, Bench. Typically the downfall we see because they're not looking at it from the workload of the application. >> Same old story, right? Focus on your core differentiator and outsource the heavy lifting on the stuff that that's not your core. All right, Well, Melissa David, Thanks for taking a minute and really enjoyed the conversation. Is Melissa? He's David. I'm Jeff. Rick, you're watching. The Cube were high above the San Francisco skyline in the sales force. Tyra. The essential innovation up. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> We're back live >> here on the Cube Of'em world 2019 that Mosconi Center, Downtown San Francisco along with stew Minimum. I'm John Walton. Thanks for joining us here Day one of our three days of coverage here via World 2019. We're now joined by the CEO of equity. Ex Charles Myers is with us and a cube rookie. We >> love that. Nice to have you on the ship here. Pleasure. Thanks for >> being here with us. Let's let's talk about first big picture here from the higher level, the whole multi cloud hybrid cloud movement. What's going on now with the Enterprise? Your perspective on kind of where we are in that shift, if you will, or that transformation and what's what's driving it? What what's what's creating all the. >> But you get that question a lot, right? People ask me what inning O'Ryan question. Um, you know, it's a regular >> is so what way? Well, >> you know, said I would say a couple of years ago, you know, people said, I don't think that I think the national anthem is still being played kind of thing, you know? And, uh, I think the game has probably started to know, but But I still think we're very early innings. Um and, uh, you know, I think I'd actually bring it up to even a higher level and talk about what's happening in terms of how companies were thinking about digital transformation and what I what I think is happening is it's becoming a board level priority for cos they can't afford to ignore it. Um, you know, digital is changing the U no basis for competitive advantage in most industries around the globe. Um and so they're investing in digital transformation. And I think they're gonna do that, frankly, independent of whatever macro economic climate we operated, Um, and so Ah, and I think you know the big driving force. Probably, you know, individual transformation today. So the cloud on DSO and what we're seeing is there is that, you know, is a particular architecture of choice that's emerging for customers. >> So, Charles, give us a little >> bit of a scope of your world because, you know, there was a move many years ago. We used to say in the I t industry, you know, friends don't let friends build data center because there's only a handful of companies in the world that are good at it. I believe your company's one of s O and not only, you know, even, you know, you talk about the megastar providers like, you know, Google and Amazon. They actually don't build many of their own data centers. They partner with certain companies and and you're one of the first companies that I talked to that was, You know, when you talk about how we position multi cloud today, well, you know, let me put some gear in an equinox environment, you know, have that direct fiber you know, into AWS or Azure in the lake s O. That was early, and we've been talking for a while, so it gives a little bit that that that broad look, you know, because from the big public cloud, you know, they're spending tens of billions of dollars a year to build that out. So, you know, and often your real estates a big piece of your world's >> absolutely and well, we certainly like to think we're pretty damn good to build an operating data centers. But >> there actually are a lot of >> people to build, not break data centers and and, of course, the clouds Dubai from third parties. But they, uh, you know, they build some of their own, and they do buy from third parties as well. We think we occupy a pretty special place in the overall data center landscape because, candidly, people, you know can buy credible data center capacity from a number of players what they can't but they really want, though, is not so much a data center as they want to connect to somebody specifically, Um, and that's where Equinox is really different. You know, with 10,000 you know, customers inside of our digital ecosystems, you know, And we operate in 200 data centers across 52 markets around the world. And, you know, we represent something very special. And it's that interconnection piece there really differentiates at clinics. From the rest. >> You've had some, I guess expansion news in terms of partnerships with the, um, where that you announced talk about that a little bit if you would, but how you've grown that relationship. And what do you think that'll take you? >> Sure. And it bridges a little bit back to suit earlier question to which is, you know, kind of What what role do we play and how is it, you know, frame in the overall cloud landscape? What was announced today was a preferred partnership with between ourselves and and, uh, and now Veum wear and and also Del to deliver the VMC on Del um you know, offering which is really aimed at the sort of hybrid cloud requirements for enterprises, customers who have workload, a set of workloads, some of which may be very well suited to public cloud. And they may go either native on AWS or with of'em CNW s type solution. But a >> lot of >> times they, for a variety of reasons, are looking for a hybrid cloud solution on, and they want to implement that on private infrastructure. But they would like to get the benefits of clout they would get, like to get the simplicity, that flexibility as a service convenience. But they need the control, the compliance, the predictability and the performance that private infrastructure allows. And so where that's what that's what the solution is all about. And were there were the preferred global cola partner for that solution. >> And do companies have a pretty good idea when they come to you about what they want to do and where they want to do it? Or do you have to shepherd them through that a little bit? Because there are a number of factors that would think that go into that consideration? >> Absolutely. And >> I would say it's more typically the ladder. There are certainly >> some who come with a well developed, you know, sort of view on >> things, but it that often >> changes to some degree, and and we we like to think of ourselves. As you know, it's probably an overused term in I T. But it's as a trusted advisor in terms of helping a customer think through. It's >> really one of the great things that I think >> both of'em where and Equinox are positioned, as which is somebody who doesn't bring, say, here's the answer. Instead, they come and say, Look, the answer probably depends on a lot of factors, and so you may want a private cloud solution. You may want a public cloud solution. You probably want a hybrid cloud solution and a hybrid multi cloud solution. So let's talk through what you're trying to accomplish and how we can get you there. >> Yeah, Charles, you know, we know that things were going to change, and the advice we always give to practitioners is whatever you deploy, you need to be able to have the agility and have options. So that a decision you make today is not going to freeze you from doing something in there. Absolutely. A lot gets talked about in the multi cloud world. What is portable and what things were moving. And, you know, we know KUBERNETES is not magic. Right? Um, your your company must have actually really good view of things going from the public cloud to my own racks, too. Moving sideways because many times moving between clouds is just moving between Rose and your data centers, right? Or over some connection gives a little insight what you're seeing. Yeah. What's the trend along >> that line? You bring up a really great point and one, Frankly, I think our you know, our sales teams and are are, you know, solution. Architects are constantly talking to our customers about which is fruit future proofing your architecture because you don't know kind of what your needs are going to be tomorrow, Um, and so being able to deploy infrastructure in a way that has greater agility and flexibility is really critically important. And that's why putting private infrastructure immediately proximate to the cloud, being able to get to the performance benefits the economic benefits of that is really key. So that's that's definitely something we're seeing, you know, as a critical part of the conversation with our customers. >> How about EJ computing? That's something that touched on a little bit this morning. But, you know, I'm sure you've got some strong feelings about where we are >> today. You know, it's funny because I always I always telling everybody inside my company around. I said, Be careful about the word edge because one person's edge in another person's court, right, you know? And so, um, you know, we actually talk about eh? Quinyx as really the best manifestation of the digital edge today, and perhaps that sounds somewhat self serving. But I would say that when you look at people who want to place infrastructure geo geographically distributed way and they want to interconnected with clouds with networks with other members of their sort of supply chain. Equinox is really best solution for that in many, many cases. And so we really talk about EJ oriented solutions with our customers inside of our are, you know, sort of population of 200 data centers across 52 markets today. Now, when I when typically I think when you're hearing edge today people are talking about an even more geographically distributed footprint that is out, You know, closer I ot sensors or closer to, you know, customer endpoints and those kind of things, Um >> and I I think that will happen over time. And I >> think people talk about compute storage moving closer to that edge. But >> I think that's gonna, you know, >> take place over a long period of time. I think five g once it's fully dense, ified and deployed. I think we'll start to drive some of those applications. But we're seeing today is the current digital edge at a quinyx works very well for most of these edge related applications. >> So what would you call it then, if it's not edge? Because you said one >> man's, we do call it yet. Yeah, right. We call it a vigil. Some people might operate out there as a >> core business right into them. That's the core you raise. An interesting point Depends on your perspective and how you see it. So we called the digital and you think from the telco side of that slate mobile applications, mobile devices. You know, we all know about the usage trends. What you see in the last 10 15 years, that's good. Just explode. So how are you preparing for that on slot? Because, you know, five G's coming >> it is. Well, we're actively >> involved. In fact, we haven't We've had real success in a number of I would call him EJ sensitive Reg related ecosystems, digital payments, you know, connected car these things and people love to talk about autonomous driving. The reality is that most autonomous driving, Um, you know, interactions are done on boards. You you don't even have time to go out and making a request to the cloud. Right? You know, But other connected car value propositions that do interact, you know, with, you know, with of farther edge are things that we've actually been working really closely with equipment providers and service providers on, and they're having great success in implementing those things. Using at clinics is part of the architecture. All right, >> Charles, how about security? You know, when you live in this multi cloud world, you know I need security that can living across the environment. How does a clinic make sure that it's a trusted partner in that? That whole security store? >> There's a variety of sort of layers to it, you know, you are the biggest response to be we have specifically is physical security because people are trusting their infrastructure to reside in one of our facilities, and it needs to be physically secure. So there's five layers of security between the front door. I know you've toured one of our facilities and have gotten the full experience of all the biometrics and all the checks and balances that occur in terms of being able to someone to being able to gain access to the facility. So there's the >> physical side. Then there's >> really, you know, sort of virtual or, you know, ah, digital security. And you know what we're doing there is really cultivating the ecosystem of providers. We have a number of really sophisticated customers who are delivering cloud based security solutions. VM. Where is one example of that? But you know, there's a variety of other customers that have a sort of, you know, security oriented value proposition companies like C Scale and other people that are really doing that well for customers. So I think that, you know, we're really more about cultivating that full ecosystem so that customers have access to the full portfolio of security tools that they need. >> Charles, Thanks for the time. We appreciate that. And I do want to congratulate you on having probably the strongest team showing >> of the Cube so far. Take, they have Charles do today. Everybody All right, That's the equities culture, all right? Trust me, they're clapping. I expected a little more of around next time we'll work on it. A good deal. Thanks for being with us side your baby. Thank you very much for big connects. Back >> with more where we're alive. Here in San Francisco at Veum World 2019