>>Bye from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hey, welcome back. Everyone's keeps coverage here in San Francisco at the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm John, your host, as cybersecurity goes to the next generation as the new cloud scale, cyber threats are out there, the real impact a company's business and society will be determined by the industry. This technology and the people that a cube alumni here, caramel Jaffer, SVP, senior vice president of strategy and corporate development for iron net. Welcome back. Thanks to Shawn. Good to be here. Thanks for having so iron net FC general Keith Alexander and you got to know new CEO of there. Phil Welsh scaler and duo knows how to scale up a company. He's right. Iron is doing really well. The iron dome, the vision of collaboration and signaling. Congratulations on your success. What's a quick update? >> Well look, I mean, you know, we have now built the capability to share information across multiple companies, multiple industries with the government in real time at machine speed. >>Really bringing people together, not just creating collected security or clip to defense, but also collaborating real time to defend one another. So you're able to divide and conquer Goliath, the enemy the same way they come after you and beat them at their own game. >> So this is the classic case of offense defense. Most corporations are playing defense, whack-a-mole, redundant, not a lot of efficiencies, a lot of burnout. Exactly. Not a lot of collaboration, but everyone's talking about the who the attackers are and collaborating like a team. Right? And you guys talk about this mission. Exactly. This is really the new way to do it. It has, the only way it works, >> it is. And you know, you see kids doing it out there when they're playing Fortnite, right? They're collaborating in real time across networks, uh, to, you know, to play a game, right? You can imagine that same construct when it comes to cyber defense, right? >>There's no reason why one big company, a second big company in a small company can't work together to identify all the threats, see that common threat landscape, and then take action on it. Trusting one another to take down the pieces they have folk to focus on and ultimately winning the battle. There's no other way a single company is gonna be able defend itself against a huge decency that has virtually unlimited resources and virtually unlimited human capital. And you've got to come together, defend across multiple industries, uh, collectively and collaboratively. >> Do you mean, we talked about this last time and I want to revisit this and I think it's super important. I think it's the most important story that's not really being talked about in the industry. And that is that we were talking last time about the government protects businesses. If someone dropped troops on the ground in your neighborhood, the government would protect you digitally. >>That's not happening. So there's really no protection for businesses. Do they build their own militia? Do they build their own army? Who was going to, who's going to be their heat shield? So this is a big conversation and a big, it brings a question. The role of the government. We're going to need a digital air force. We're going to need a digital army, Navy, Navy seals. We need to have that force, and this has to be a policy issue, but in the short term, businesses and individuals are sitting out there being attacked by sophisticated mission-based teams of hackers and nation States, right? Either camouflaging or hiding, but attacking still. This is a huge issue. What's going on? Are people talking about this in D C well, >> John, look not enough. People are talking about it, right? And forget DC. We need to be talking about here, out here in the Silicon Valley with all these companies here at the RSA floor and bring up the things you're bringing up because this is a real problem we're facing as a nation. >>The Russians aren't coming after one company, one state. They're coming after our entire election infrastructure. They're coming after us as a nation. The Chinese maybe come after one company at a time, but their goal is to take our electoral properties, a nation, repurpose it back home. And when the economic game, right, the Iranians, the North Koreans, they're not focused on individual actors, but they are coming after individual actors. We can't defend against those things. One man, one woman, one company on an Island, one, one agency, one state. We've got to come together collectively, right? Work state with other States, right? If we can defend against the Russians, California might be really good at it. Rhode Island, small States can be real hard, defends against the Russians, but if California, Rhode Island come together, here's the threats. I see. Here's what it's. You see share information, that's great. Then we collaborate on the defense and work together. >>You take these threats, I'll take those threats and now we're working as a team, like you said earlier, like those kids do when they're playing fortnight and now we're changing the game. Now we're really fighting the real fight. >> You know, when I hear general Keith Alexander talking about his vision with iron net and what you guys are doing, I'm inspired because it's simply put, we have a mission to protect our nation, our people, and a good businesses, and he puts it into kind of military, military terms, but in reality, it's a simple concept. Yeah, we're being attacked, defend and attack back. Just basic stuff. But to make it work as the sharing. So I got to ask you, I'm first of all, I love the, I love what he has, his vision. I love what you guys are doing. How real are we? What's the progression? >>Where are we on the progress bar of that vision? Well, you know, a lot's changed to the last year and a half alone, right? The threats gotten a lot, a lot more real to everybody, right? Used to be the industry would say to us, yeah, we want to share with the government, but we want something back for, right. We want them to show us some signal to today. Industry is like, look, the Chinese are crushing us out there, right? We can beat them at a, at some level, but we really need the governor to go do its job too. So we'll give you the information we have on, on an anonymized basis. You do your thing. We're going to keep defending ourselves and if you can give us something back, that's great. So we've now stood up in real time of DHS. We're sharing with them huge amounts of data about what we're seeing across six of the top 10 energy companies, some of the biggest banks, some of the biggest healthcare companies in the country. >>Right? In real time with DHS and more to come on that more to come with other government agencies and more to come with some our partners across the globe, right? Partners like those in Japan, Singapore, Eastern Europe, right? Our allies in the middle East, they're all the four lenses threat. We can bring their better capability. They can help us see what's coming at us in the future because as those enemies out there testing the weapons in those local areas. I want to get your thoughts on the capital markets because obviously financing is critical and you're seeing successful venture capital formulas like forge point really specialized funds on cyber but not classic industry formation sectors. Like it's not just security industry are taking a much more broader view because there's a policy implication is that organizational behavior, this technology up and down the stack. So it's a much broad investment thesis. >>What's your view of that? Because as you do, you see that as a formula and if so, what is this new aperture or this new lens of investing to be successful in funding? Companies will look, it's really important what companies like forge point are doing. Venture capital funds, right? Don Dixon, Alberta Pez will land. They're really innovating here. They've created a largest cybersecurity focused fund. They just closed the recently in the world, right? And so they really focus on this industry. Partners like, Kleiner Perkins, Ted Schlein, Andrea are doing really great work in this area. Also really important capital formation, right? And let's not forget other funds. Ron Gula, right? The founder of tenable started his own fund out there in DC, in the DMV area. There's a lot of innovation happening this country and the funding on it's critical. Now look, the reality is the easy money's not going to be here forever, right? >>It's the question is what comes when that inevitable step back. We don't. Nobody likes to talk about it. I said the guy who who bets on the other side of the craps game in Vegas, right? You don't wanna be that guy, but let's be real. I mean that day will eventually come. And the question is how do you bring some of these things together, right? Bring these various pieces together to really create long term strategies, right? And that's I think what's really innovative about what Don and Alberto are doing is they're building portfolio companies across a range of areas to create sort of an end to end capability, right? Andrea is doing things like that. Ted's doing stuff like that. It's a, that's really innovation. The VC market, right? And we're seeing increased collaboration VC to PE. It's looking a lot more similar, right? And now we're seeing innovative vehicles like stacks that are taking some of these public sort of the reverse manner, right? >>There's a lot of interests. I've had to be there with Hank Thomas, the guys chief cyber wrenches. So a lot of really cool stuff going on in the financing world. Opportunities for young, smart entrepreneurs to really move out in this field and to do it now. And money's still silver. All that hasn't come as innovation on the capital market side, which is awesome. Let's talk about the ecosystem in every single market sector that I've been over, my 30 year career has been about a successful entrepreneurship check, capital two formation of partnerships. Okay. You're on the iron net, front lines here. As part of that ecosystem, how do you see the ecosystem formula developing? Is it the same kind of model? Is it a little bit different? What's your vision of the ecosystem? Look, I mean partnerships channel, it's critical to every cyber security company. You can't scale on your own. >>You've got to do it through others, right? I was at a CrowdStrike event the other day. 91% of the revenue comes from the channel. That's an amazing number. You think about that, right? It's you look at who we're trying to talk about partnering with. We're talking about some of the big cloud players. Amazon, Microsoft, right? Google, right on the, on the vendor side. Pardon me? Splunk crashes, so these big players, right? We want to build with them, right? We want to work with them because there's a story to tell here, right? When we were together, the AECOS through self is defendant stronger. There's no, there's no anonymity here, right? It's all we bring a specialty, you bring specialty, you work together, you run out and go get the go get the business and make companies safer. At the end of the day, it's all about protecting the ecosystem. What about the big cloud player? >>Cause he goes two big mega trends. Obviously cloud computing and scale, right? Multi-cloud on the horizon, hybrids, kind of the bridge between single public cloud and multi-cloud and then AI you've got the biggies are generally will be multiple generations of innovation and value creation. What's your vision on the impact of the big waves that are coming? Well, look, I mean cloud computing is a rate change the world right? Today you can deploy capability and have a supercomputer in your fingertips in in minutes, right? You can also secure that in minutes because you can update it in real time. As the machine is functioning, you have a problem, take it down, throw up a new virtual machine. These are amazing innovations that are creating more and more capability out there in industry. It's game changing. We're happy, we're glad to be part of that and we ought to be helping defend that new amazing ecosystem. >>Partnering with companies like Microsoft. They didn't AWS did, you know, you know, I'm really impressed with your technical acumen. You've got a good grasp of the industry, but also, uh, you have really strong on the societal impact policy formulation side of government and business. So I want to get your thoughts for the young kids out there that are going to school, trying to make sense of the chaos that's going on in the world, whether it's DC political theater or the tech theater, big tech and in general, all of the things with coronavirus, all this stuff going on. It's a, it's a pretty crazy time, but a lot of work has to start getting done that are new problems. Yeah. What is your advice as someone who's been through the multiple waves to the young kids who have to figure out what half fatigue, what problems are out there, what things can people get their arms around to work on, to specialize in? >>What's your, what's your thoughts and expertise on that? Well, John, thanks for the question. What I really like about that question is is we're talking about what the future looks like and here's what I think the future looks like. It's all about taking risks. Tell a lot of these young kids out there today, they're worried about how the world looks right? Will America still be strong? Can we, can we get through this hard time we're going through in DC with the world challenges and what I can say is this country has never been stronger. We may have our own troubles internally, but we are risk takers and we always win. No matter how hard it gets them out of how bad it gets, right? Risk taking a study that's building the American blood. It's our founders came here taking a risk, leaving Eagle to come here and we've succeeded the last 200 years. >>There is no question in my mind that trend will continue. So the young people out there, I don't know what the future has to hold. I don't know if the new tape I was going to be, but you're going to invent it. And if you don't take the risks, we're not succeed as a nation. And that's what I think is key. You know, most people worry that if they take too many risks, they might not succeed. Right? But the reality is most people you see around at this convention, they all took risks to be here. And even when they had trouble, they got up, they dust themselves off and they won. And I believe that everybody in this country, that's what's amazing about the station is we have this opportunity to, to try, if we fail to get up again and succeed. So fail fast, fail often, and crush it. >>You know, some of the best innovations have come from times where you had the cold war, you had, um, you had times where, you know, the hippie revolution spawn the computer. So you, so you have the culture of America, which is not about regulation and stunting growth. You had risk-taking, you had entrepreneurship, but yet enough freedom for business to operate, to solve new challenges, accurate. And to me the biggest imperative in my mind is this next generation has to solve a lot of those new questions. What side of the street is the self driving cars go on? I see bike lanes in San Francisco, more congestion, more more cry. All this stuff's going on. AI could be a great enabler for that. Cyber security, a direct threat to our country and global geopolitical landscape. These are big problems. State and local governments, they're not really tech savvy. They don't really have a lot ID. >>So what do they do? How do they serve their, their constituents? You know, look John, these are really important and hard questions, but we know what has made technology so successful in America? What's made it large, successful is the governor state out of the way, right? Industry and innovators have had a chance to work together and do stuff and change the world, right? You look at California, you know, one of the reasons California is so successful and Silicon Valley is so dynamic. You can move between jobs and we don't enforce non-compete agreements, right? Because you can switch jobs and you can go to that next higher value target, right? That shows the value of, you know, innovation, creating innovation. Now there's a real tendency to say, when we're faced with challenges, well, the government has to step in and solve that problem, right? The Silicon Valley and what California's done, what technology's done is a story about the government stayed out and let innovators innovate, and that's a real opportunity for this nation. >>We've got to keep on down that path, even when it seemed like the easier answer is, come on in DC, come on in Sacramento, fix this problem for us. We have demonstrated as a country that Americans and individual are good at solve these problems. We should allow them to do that and innovate. Yeah. One of my passions is to kind of use technology and media to end communities to get to the truth faster. A lot of, um, access to smart minds out there, but young minds, young minds, uh, old minds, young minds though. It's all there. You gotta get the data out and that's going to be a big thing. That's the, one of the things that's changing is the dark arts of smear campaigns. The story of Bloomberg today, Oracle reveals funding for dark money, group biting, big tech internet accountability projects. Um, and so the classic astroturfing get the Jedi contract, Google WASU with Java. >>So articles in the middle of all this, but using them as an illustrative point. The lawyers seem to be running the kingdom right now. I know you're an attorney, so I'm recovering, recovering. I don't want to be offensive, but entrepreneurship cannot be stifled by regulation. Sarbanes Oxley slowed down a lot of the IPO shifts to the latest stage capital. So regulation, nest and every good thing. But also there's some of these little tactics out in the shadows are going to be revealed. What's the new way to get this straightened out in your mind? We'll look, in my view, the best solution for problematic speech or pragmatic people is more speech, right? Let's shine a light on it, right? If there are people doing shady stuff, let's talk about it's an outfit. Let's have it out in the open. Let's fight it out. At the end of the day, what America's really about is smart ideas. >>Winning. It's a, let's get the ideas out there. You know, we spent a lot of time, right now we're under attack by the Russians when it comes to our elections, right? We spent a lot of time harping at one another, one party versus another party. The president versus that person. This person who tells committee for zap person who tells committee. It's crazy when the real threat is from the outside. We need to get past all that noise, right? And really get to the next thing which is we're fighting a foreign entity on this front. We need to face that enemy down and stop killing each other with this nonsense and turn the lights on. I'm a big believer of if something can be exposed, you can talk about it. Why is it happening exactly right. This consequences with that reputation, et cetera. You got it. >>Thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate your insight. Um, I want to just ask you one final question cause you look at, look at the industry right now. What is the most important story that people are talking about and what is the most important story that people should be talking about? Yeah. Well look, I think the one story that's out there a lot, right, is what's going on in our politics, what's going on in our elections. Um, you know, Chris Krebs at DHS has been out here this week talking a lot about the threat that our elections face and the importance about States working with one another and States working with the federal government to defend the nation when it comes to these elections in November. Right? We need to get ahead of that. Right? The reality is it's been four years since 2016 we need to do more. That's a key issue going forward. What are the Iranians North Koreans think about next? They haven't hit us recently. We know what's coming. We got to get ahead of that. I'm going to come again at a nation, depending on staff threat to your meal. Great to have you on the QSO is great insight. Thanks for coming on sharing your perspective. I'm John furrier here at RSA in San Francisco for the cube coverage. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live, from Washington DC, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Public Sector Summit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit here in our nation's capital. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Co-hosting along side John Furrier. We are joined by Jamil Jaffer, he is the VP Strategy and Partnerships at IronNet. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me Rebecca. >> Rebecca: I know you've been watching us for a long time so here you are, soon to be a CUBE alumn. >> I've always wanted to be in theCUBE, it's like being in the octagon but for computer journalists. (laughing) I'm pumped about it. >> I love it. Okay, why don't you start by telling our viewers a little bit about IronNet and about what you do there. >> Sure, so IronNet was started about 4 1/2 years ago, 5 years ago, by General Kieth Alexander, the former director of the NSA and founding commander of US Cyber command. And essentially what we do is, we do network traffic analytics and collective defense. Now I think a lot of people know what network traffic analytics are, you're looking for behavioral anomalies and network traffic, trying to identify the bad from the good. Getting past all the false positives, all the big data. What's really cool about what we do is collective defense. It's this idea that one company standing alone can't defend itself, it's got to work with multiple companies, it's got to work across industry sectors. Potentially even with the governments, and potentially across allied governments, really defending one another. And the way that works, the way we think about that, is we share all the anomalies we see across multiple companies to identify threat trends and correlations amongst that data, so you can find things before they happen to you. And so the really cool idea here is, that something may not happen to you, but it may happen to your colleague, you find about it, you're defended against it. And it takes a real commitment by our partners, our companies that we work with, to do this, but increasingly they're realizing the threat is so large, they have no choice but to work together, and we provide that platform that allows that to happen. >> And the premise is that sharing the data gives more observational space to have insights into that offense, correct? >> That's exactly right. It's as though, it's almost like you think about an air traffic control picture, or a radar picture, right? The idea being that if you want to know what's happening in the air space, you got to see all of it in real time at machine speed, and that allows you to get ahead of the threats rather than being reactive and talking about instant response, we're talking about getting ahead of the problems before they happen so you can stop them and prevent the damage ahead of time. >> So you're an expert, they're lucky to have you. Talk about what you've been doing before this. Obviously a lot of experience in security. Talk about some about some of the things you've done in the past. >> So I have to admit to being a recovering lawyer, but you have to forgive me because I did grow up with computers. I had a Tandy TRS-80 Color computer when I first started. 4K of all more RAM, we upgraded to 16K, it was the talk of the rainbow computer club, what are you doing, 16K of RAM? (laughing) I mean, it was-- >> Basic programming language, >> That's right. (laughing) Stored on cassette tapes. I remember when you used to have to punch a hole in the other side of a 5 1/4 floppy disc to make it double sided. >> Right, right. >> John: Glory days. >> Yeah, yeah. I paid my way through college running a network cable, but I'm a recovering lawyer, and so my job in the government, I worked at the House Intelligence Committee, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and then the Bush administration on the Comprehensive National Cybersecurity Initiative, both the Justice Department and the White House. >> You've seen the arc, you've seen the trajectory, the progress we're making now seems to me slower than it should be, obviously a lot of inertia as Amy Chasity said today about these public sector government agencies, what not. But a real focus has been on it, we've been seeing activity. Where are we with the state of the union around the modernization of cyber and awareness to what's happening? How critical are people taking this threat seriously? >> Well I think I variety of things to say on that front. First, the government itself needs modernize its systems, right? We've seen that talked about in the Obama administration, we've seen President Trump put out an executive order on modernization of federal infrastructure. The need to move to the cloud, the need to move to shared services, make them more defensible, more resilient long-term. That's the right move. We've seen efforts at the Department of Defense and elsewhere. They aren't going as fast as the need to, more needs to happen on that front. IT modernization can really be accelerated by shifting to the cloud, and that's part of why that one of the things that IronNet's done really aggressively is make a move into the cloud space, putting all of our back end in the cloud and AWS. And also, ability, capability to do surveillance and monitoring. When I say surveillance I mean network threat detection not surveillance of the old kind. But network threat detection in the cloud, and in cloud-enabled instances too. So both are important, right? Classic data centers, but also in modern cloud infrastructure. >> Yeah, one of the things people want to know about is what your enemy looks like, and now with the democratization with open source, and democratization of tools, the enemies could be hiding through obscure groups. The states, the bad actors and the state actors can actually run covert activities through other groups, so this is kind of a dynamic that creates confusion. >> No, in fact, it's their actual mode of operating, right? It's exactly what they do, they use proxies, right? So you'll see the Russians operating, looking like a criminal hacker group operating out of the eastern Europe. In part because a lot of those Russian criminal rings, in actuality. You see a lot of patriotic hackers, right? I would tell most people, if you see a patriotic hacker there's probably a government behind that whole operation. And so the question becomes, how do you confront that threat, right? A lot of people say deterrence doesn't work in cyberspace. I don't believe that. I think deterrence can and does work in cyberspace, we just don't practice it. We don't talk about our capabilities, we don't talk our red lines, we don't talk about what'll happen if you cross our red lines, and when we do establish red lines and they're crossed, we don't really enforce them. So it's no surprise that our enemies, or advisories, are hitting us in cyberspace, are testing our boundaries. It's cause we haven't really give them a sense of where those lines are and what we're going to do if they cross them. >> Are we making an progress on doing anything here? What's the state of the market there? >> Well the government appears to have gotten more aggressive, right? We've seen efforts in congress to give the Department of Defense and the US Intelligence Committee more authorities. You can see the stand up of US Cyber Command. And we've seen more of a public discussion of these issues, right? So that's happening. Now, is it working? That's a harder question to know. But the real hard question is, what do you do on private sector defense? Because our tradition has been, in this country, that if it's a nation-state threat, the government defends you against it. We don't expect Target or Walmart or Amazon to have service to air missiles on the roof of your buildings to defend against Russian Bear bombers. We expect the government to do that. But in cyberspace, the idea's flipped on its head. We expect Amazon and every company in America, from a mom and pop shop, all the way up to the big players, to defend themselves against script kiddies, criminal hacker gangs, and nation-states. >> John: And randomware's been taking down cities, Baltimore, recent example, >> Exactly. >> John: multiple times. Hit that well many times. >> That's right, that's right. >> Talk about where the US compares. I mean, here as you said, the US, we are starting to have these conversations, there's more of an awareness of these cyber threats. But modernization has been slow, it does not quite have the momentum. How do we rate with other countries? >> Well I think in a lot of ways we have the best capabilities when it comes to identifying threats, identifying the adversary, the enemy, and taking action to respond, right? If we're not the top one, we're in the top two or three, right? And the question, though, becomes one of, how do you work with industry to help industry become that good? Now our industry is at the top of that game also, but when you're talking about a nation-state, which has virtually unlimited resources, virtually unlimited man-power to throw at a problem, it's not realistic to expect a single company to defend itself, and at the same time, we as a nation are prepared to say, "Oh, the Department of Defense should be sitting on "the boundaries of the US internet." As if you could identify them even, right? And we don't want that. So the question becomes, how does the government empower the private sector to do better defense for itself? What can the government do working with industry, and how can industry work with one another, to defend each other? We really got to do collective defense, not because it makes sense, which it does, but because there is no other option if you're going to confront nation-state or nation-state enabled actors. And that's another threat, we've seen the leakage of nation-state capabilities out to a lot broader of an audience now. That's a problem, even though that may be 2013 called and wants it's hack back, those things still work, right? What we saw in Baltimore was stuff that has been known for a long time. Microsoft has released patches long ago for that, and yet, still vulnerable. >> And the evolution of just cyber essential command, and Cyber Command, seems to be going slow, at least from my frame. Maybe I'm not in the know, but what is the imperative? I mean, there's a lot of problems to solve. How does the public sector, how does the government, solve these problems? Is cloud the answer? What are some of the things that people of this, the top minds, discussing? >> Well and I think cloud is clearly one part of the solution, right? There's no question that when you move to a cloud infrastructure, you have sort of a more bounded perimeter, right? And that provides that ability to also rapidly update, you could update systems in real time, and in mass. There's not going around and bringing your floppy disc and loading software, and it sounds like that's sort of a joke about an older era, but you look at what happened with NotPetya and you read this great Wired article about what happened with NotPetya, and you look at Maersk. And the way that Maersk brought its systems back up, was they had domain controller in Africa that had gone down due to a power surge, where they were able to recover the physical hard drive and re-image all their world-wide domain controls off of that one hard drive. You think about a major company that runs a huge percentage of the world's ports, right? And this is how they recovered, right? So we really are in that, take your disc and go to computers. In a cloud infrastructure you think about how you can do that in real time, or rapidly refresh, rapidly install patches, so there's a lot of that, that's like a huge part of it. It's not a complete solution, but it's an important part. >> Yeah, one of the things we talk about, a lot of tech guys, is that this debate's around complexity, versus simplicity. So if you store your data in one spot, it's easy to audit and better for governing compliance, but yet easier for hackers to penetrate. From an IQ standpoint, the more complex it is, distributed, harder. >> Yeah I think that's right. >> John: But what's the trade off there? How are people thinking about that kind of direction? >> No that's a great question, right? There's a lot of benefits to diversity of systems, there's a lot of benefit to spreading out your crown jewels, the heart of your enterprise. At the same time, there's real resilience in putting it in one place, having it well defended. Particularly when it's a shared responsibility and you have partial responsibility for the defense, but the provider to, I mean, Amazon, and all the other cloud providers, Microsoft and Google, all have it in their own self interest to really defend their cloud really well. Because whether or not you call it shared responsibility, it's your stock price that matters if you get hit, right? And so, instead of you, Amazon, and all the other cloud players have an incentive to do the right thing and do it really well. And so this shared responsibility can work to both side's benefits. That being said, there's an ongoing debate. A lot of folks want to do there stuff on-prem in a lot of ways. You know, a lot of us are old school, right? When you touch it, you feel it, you know it's there. And we're working through that conversation with folks, and I think that at the end of the day, the real efficiency gains and the power of having super computing power at your fingertips for analytics, for consumer purposes and the like. I really think there's no way to avoid moving to a cloud infrastructure in the long run. >> I know you said you were a recovering lawyer, but you are the founding director of the National Security Institute at the Antonin Scalia School of Law. How are you thinking about educating the next generation of lawyers who could indeed become policy makers or at least work on these committees, to think about these threats that we don't even know about yet? >> That's a great question. So one of the things we're doing, is we're working through the process with the state commission on establishing a new LLM and cyber intelligence national security law. That'll be a great opportunity for lawyers to actually get an advanced degree in these issues. But we're also training non-lawyers. One of the interesting things is, you know, One of the challenges DC has, is we make a lot of tech policy, a lot of it not great, because it's not informed by technologists, so we've got a great partnership with the Hewlett Foundation where we're bringing technologists from around the country, mid-career folks, anywhere from the age of 24 to 38. We're bringing them to DC and we're educating them on how to talk to policy makers. These are technologists, these are coders, data scientists, all the like, and it's a real opportunity for them to be able to be influential in the process of making laws, and know how to involve themselves and talk that speak. Cause, DC speak is a certain thing, right? (laughing) And it's not typically consistent with tech speak, so we're trying to bridge that gap and the Hewlett Foundation's been a great partner in that effort. >> On that point about this collaboration, Silicon Valley's been taking a lot of heat lately, obviously Zuckerberg and Facebook in the news again today, more issues around irresponsibility, but they were growing a rocket ship, I mean, company's only 15 years old roughly. So the impact's been significant, but tech has moved so fast. Tech companies usually hire policy folks in DC to speak the language, educate, a little bit different playbook. But now it's a forcing function between two worlds colliding. You got Washington DC, the Silicon Valley cultures have to blend now. What are some of the top minds thinking about this? What are some of the discussions happening? What's the topic of conversations? >> Well look, I mean, you've see it in the press, it's no surprise you're hearing this talk about breaking up big tech companies. I mean, it's astounding. We used to live in world in which being successful was the American way, right? And now, it seems like at least, without any evidence of anti-trust concerns, that we're talking about breaking up companies that have otherwise hugely successful, wildly innovative. It's sort of interesting to hear that conversation, it's not just one party, you're hearing this in a bipartisan fashion. And so it's a concern, and I think what it reveals to tech companies is, man, we haven't be paying a lot of attention to these guys in DC and they can cause real trouble. We need to get over there and starting talking to these folks and educating them on what we do. >> And the imperative for them is to do the right thing, because, I mean, the United States interest, breaking up, say, Facebook, and Google, and Apple, and Amazon, might look good on paper but China's not breaking up Alibaba anytime soon. >> To the contrary. They're giving them low-interest loans and helping them all to excel. It's crazy. >> Yeah, and they have no R&D by the way, so that's been- >> Jamil: Right, because they stole all of our IP. >> So the US invests in R&D that is easily moving out through theft, that's one issue. You have digital troops on our shores from foreign nations, some will argue, I would say yes. >> Jamil: Inside the border. >> Inside the border, inside the interior, with access to the power grids, our critical infrastructure, this is happening now. So is the government now aware of the bigger picture around what we have as capabilities and criticalities that were needed now for digital military? What is that conversation like? >> Well I think they're having this conversation, right? I think the government knows it's a problem, they know that actually in a lot of ways a partnership with tech is better than an adversary relationship. That doesn't change the fact that, for some reason, in the last three, four years, we really have seen what some people are calling a "techlash", right? A backlash against technology. It kind of strikes me as odd, because of course, the modern economy that we've so benefited from is literally built on the back of the innovations coming out of the Silicon Valley, out of the west coast, and out of the DC metro area, where a lot these tech companies are developing some of the most innovative new ideas. Now they're, frankly, helping government innovate. So Amazon's a key part of that effort, right? Here in the public sector. And so I'm hoping that education will help, I know that the arrival of tech companies here to really have that conversation in an open and sensible way, I hope will sort of waft back some of this. But I worry that for too long the tech and the policies have ignored on another. And now they're starting to intersect as you say, and it has the possibility of going wrong fast, and I'm hoping that doesn't happen. >> You know, one of the things that Rebecca and I were talking about was this talent gap between public sector and private sector. These agencies aren't going to go public anytime soon, so maybe they should get equity deals and get a financial incentive. (laughing) You know what I mean? Shrink down the cost, increase the value. But as you get the collaboration between the two parties, the cloud is attracting smart people, because it gives you an accelerant of value. So people can see some entry points to land, some value out of the gate, verus giving up and abandoning it through red tape, or in other processes. So you starting to see smart people get attracted to cloud as a tool for making change. How is that working? And how is that going to work? Cause this could be coming to the partnership side of it. People might not want to work for the government, but could work with the government. This is a dynamic that we see as real. What's your thoughts? >> I think that's exactly right. Having these cloud infrastructures gives the ability to one, leverage huge amounts of computing power, but also to leverage insights and knowledge from the private sector in ways that you never could have imagined. So I really do think the cloud is an opportunity to bring real benefits from private sector innovation into the public sector very rapidly, right? So, broad-clouded option. And that's part of why John Alexander, my boss, and I have been talking a lot about the need for broad-clouded option. It's not just innovative in technology, it's benefits to the war fighter, Right? I mean, these are real, tangible benefits pushing data in real time, the war fighter, You know John Alexander had one of the biggest innovations in modern war fighting, where he's able to take civil intelligence down from weeks and months, down to minutes and seconds, that the naval and our war fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan to really take the fight to the enemy. The cloud brings that power scaled up to a huge degree, right? By orders of magnitude. And so the government recognizes this and yet today we don't see them yet moving rapidly in that direction. So I think the EO was a good move, a good first step in that direction, now we got to see it implemented by the various agencies down below. >> Well we'll kep in touch, great to have you on. I know we're wrapping up the day here, they're breaking down, we're going to pull the plug literally. (laughing) We'll keep in touch and we'll keep progress on you. >> Thank you so much, I appreciate it. >> Rebecca: Jamil, you are now a CUBE alumn, >> I love it, thank you. >> Rebecca: So congrats, you've joined the club. >> I love it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier you have been watching theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit. (electronic music)

>>Good morning. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin. We have two live sets here. We've got over a hundred guests on the program this week with our live sets of remote sets, talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And I'm pleased to be welcoming back. One of our cube alumni timbers. She ran the founder and CPO of Jenny-O to the program. Tom is going to be talking about why 2022 is the year open data architectures surpass the data warehouse Timur. Welcome back to the >>Cube. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. It's >>Great to be here at a live event in person, my goodness, sitting side by side with guests. Talk to me a little bit about before we kind of dig into the data lake house versus the data warehouse. I want to, I want to unpack that with you. Talk to me about what what's going on at Jemena you guys were on the program earlier this summer, but what are some of the things going on right now in the fall of 2021? >>Yeah, for us, it's a big year of, uh, a lot of product news, a lot of new products, new innovation, a company's grown a lot. We're, uh, you know, probably three times bigger than we were a year ago. So a lot of, a lot of new, new folks on the team and, uh, many, many new customers. >>It's good, always new customers, especially during the last 22 months, which have been obviously incredibly challenging, but I want to unpack this, the difference between a data lake and data lake house, but I love the idea of a lake house by the way, but talk to me about what the differences are similarities and how customers are benefiting. Sure. Yeah. >>I think you could think of the lake house as kind of the evolution of the lake, right? So we have, we've had data lakes for a while. Now, the transition to the cloud made them a lot more powerful and now a lot of new capabilities coming into the world of data lakes really make the, that whole kind of concept that whole architecture, much more powerful to the point that you really are not going to need a data warehouse anymore. Right. And so it kind of gives you the best of both worlds, all the advantages that we had with data lakes, the flexibility to use different processing engines, to have data in your own account and open formats, um, all those benefits, but also the benefits that you had with warehouses, where you could do transactions and get high performance for your, uh, BI workloads and things like that. So the lake house makes kind of both of those come together and gives you the, the benefits of both >>Elizabeth talk to me about from a customer lens perspective, what are some of the key benefits and how does the customer go about from say they've got data warehouses, data lakes to actually evolving to the lake house. >>You know, data warehouses have been around forever, right? And you know, there's, there's been some new innovation there as we've kind of moved to the cloud, but fundamentally there are very close and very proprietary architecture that gets very expensive quickly. And so, you know, with a data warehouse, you have to take your data and load it into the warehouse, right. You know, whether that's a, you know, Terra data or snowflake or any, any other, uh, you know, database out there, that's, that's what you do. You bring the data into the engine. Um, the data lake house is a really different architecture. It's one where you actually, you're having, you have data as its own tier, right? Stored in open formats, things like parquet files and iceberg tables. And you're basically bringing the engines to the data instead of the data to the engine. And so now all of a sudden you can start to take advantage of all this innovation that's happening on the same set of data without having to copy and move it around. So whether that's, you know, Dremio for high performance, uh, BI workloads and SQL type of analysis, a spark for kind of batch processing and machine learning, Flink for streaming. So lots of different technologies that you can use on the, on the same data and the data stays in the customer's own account, right? So S3 effectively becomes their new data warehouse. >>Okay. So it can imagine during the last 22 months of this scattered work from Eddie, and we're still in this work from anywhere environment with so much data being generated at the edge of the edge, expanding that bringing the engines to the data is probably now more timely than ever. >>Yeah. I think the, the growth in data, uh, you see it everywhere, right? That that's the reason so many companies like ourselves are doing so well. Right? It's, it's, there's so much new data, so many new use cases and every company wants to be data-driven right. They all want to be, you know, to, to democratize data within the organization. Um, you know, but you need the platforms to be able to do that. Right. And so, uh, that's very hard if you have to constantly move data around, if you have to take your data, you know, which maybe is landing in S3, but move it into, you know, subsets of it into a data warehouse. And then from there move, you know, substance of that into, you know, BI extracts, right? Tableau extracts power BI imports, and you have to create cubes and lots of copies within the data warehouse. There's no way you're going to be able to provide self-service and data democratization. And so really requires a new architecture. Um, and that's one of the main things that we've been focused on at Dremio, um, is really taking the, the, the lake house and the lake and making it, not just something that data scientists use for, you know, really kind of advanced use cases, but even your production BI workloads can actually now run on the lake house when you're using a SQL technology. Like, and then >>It's really critical because as you talked about this, you know, companies, every company, these days is a data company. If they're not, they have to be, or there's a competitor in the rear view mirror that is going to be able to take over what they're doing. So this really is really critical, especially considering another thing that we learned in the last 22 months is that there's no real-time data access is no longer, a nice to have. It's really an essential for businesses in any organization. >>I think, you know, we, we see it even in our own company, right? The folks that are joining the workforce now, they, they learn sequel in school, right. They, they, they don't want to report on their desk, printed out every Monday morning. They want access to the database. How do I connect my whatever tool I want, or even type sequel by hand. And I want access to the data and I want to just use it. Right. And I want the performance of course, to be fast because otherwise I'll get frustrated and I won't use it, which has been the status quo for a long time. Um, and that's basically what we're solving >>The lake house versus a data warehouse, better able to really facilitate data democratization across an organization. >>Yeah. Because there's a big, you know, people don't talk a lot about the story before the story, right. With, with a data warehouse, the data never starts there. Right. You typically first have your data in something like an S3 or perhaps in other databases, right. And then you have to kind of ETL at all into, um, into that warehouse. And that's a lot of work. And typically only a small subset of the data gets ETL into that data warehouse. And then the user wants to query something that's not in the warehouse. And somebody has to go from engineering, spend, you know, a month or two months, you know, respond to that ticket and wiring up some new ETL, uh, to get the data in. And so it's a big problem, right? And so if you can have a system that can query the data directly in S3 and even join it with sources, uh, outside of that things like your Oracle database, your, your SQL server database here, you know, Mongo, DB, et cetera. Well, now you can really have the ability to expose data to your, to your users within the company and make it very self-service. They can, they can query any data at any time and get a fast response time that that's, that's what they need >>At self-service is key there. Speaking of self-service and things that are new. I know you guys dromio cloud launched that recently, new SAS offering. Talk to me about that. What's going on there. Yeah. >>We want to stream your cloud. We, we spent about two years, um, working on that internally and, uh, really the goal was to simplify how we deliver all of the, kind of the benefits that we've had in our product. Right. Sub-second response times on the lake, a semantic layer, the ability to connect to multiple sources, but take away the pain of having to, you know, install and manage software. Right. And so we did it in a way that the user doesn't have to think about versions. They don't have to think about upgrades. They don't have to monitor anything. It's basically like running and using Gmail. Right? You log in, you, you get to use it, right. You don't have to be very sophisticated. There's no, not a lot of administration you have to do. Um, it basically makes it a lot, a lot simpler. >>And what's the adoption been like so far? >>It's been great. It's been limited availability, but we've been onboarding customers, uh, every week now. Um, many startups, many of the world's largest companies. So that's been, that's been really exciting actually. >>So quite a range of customers. And one of the things, it sounds like you want me to has grown itself during the pandemic. We've seen acceleration of, of that, of, of, uh, startups, of a lot of companies, of cloud adoption of migration. What are some, how have your customer conversations changed in the last 22 months as businesses and every industry kind of scrambled in the beginning to, to survive and now are realizing that they need to modernize, to thrive and to be competitive and to have competitive advantage. >>I think I've seen a few different trends here. One is certainly, there's been a lot of, uh, acceleration of movement to the cloud, right? With, uh, uh, you know, how different businesses have been impacted. It's required them to be more agile, more elastic, right. They don't necessarily know how much workload they're gonna have at any point in time. So having that flexibility, both in terms of the technology that can, you know, with Dremio cloud, we scale, for example, infinitely, like you can have, you know, one query a day, or you can have a thousand queries a second and the system just takes care of it. Right. And so that's really important to these companies that are going through, you know, being impacted in various different ways, right? You had the companies, you know, the Peloton and zooms of the world that were business was exploding. >>And then of course, you know, the travel and hospitality industries, and that went to zero, all of a sudden it's been recovering nicely, uh, you know, since then, but so that flexibility, um, has been really important to customers. I think the other thing is just they've realized that they have to leverage data, right? Because in parallel to this pandemic has been also really a boom in technology, right? And so every industry is being disrupted by new startups, whether it's the insurance industry, the financial services, a lot of InsureTech, FinTech, you know, different, uh, companies that are trying to take advantage of data. So if you, as a, as an enterprise are not doing that, you know, that's a problem. >>It is a problem. It's definitely something that I think every business and every industry needs to be very acutely aware of because from a competitive advantage perspective, you know, there's someone in that rear view mirror who is going to be focused on data. I have a real solid, modern data strategy. That's going to be able to take over if a company is resting on its laurels at all. So here we are at reinvent, they talked a lot about, um, I just came off of Adam psyllid speeds. So Lipsey's keynote. But talk to me about the jumbo AWS partnership. I know AWS its partner ecosystem is huge. You're one of the partners, but talk to me about what's going on with the partnership. How long have you guys been partners? What are the advantages for your customers? >>You know, we've been very close partners with AWS for, for a number of years now, and it kind of spans many different parts of AWS from kind of the, uh, the engineering organization. So very close relationship with the S3 team, the C2 team, uh, you know, just having dinner last night with, uh, Kevin Miller, the GM of S3. Um, and so that's kind of one side of things is really the engineering integration. You know, we're the first technology to integrate with AWS lake formation, which is Amazon's data lake security technology. So we do a lot of work together on kind of upcoming features that Amazon is releasing. Um, and then also they've been really helpful on the go-to-market side of things on the sales and marketing, um, whether it's, you know, blogs on the Amazon blog, where their sales teams actually promoting Dremio to their customers, um, uh, to help them be successful. So it's really been a good, good partnership. >>And there they are, every time I talked to somebody from Amazon, we always talk about their kind of customer first focus, their customer obsession sounds like you're, there's deep alignment on from the technical engineering perspective, sales and marketing. Talk to me a little bit about cultural alignment, because when you're going into customer conversations, I imagine they want to see one unified team. >>Yeah. You know, I think Amazon does have that customer first and obviously we do as well. And we, you know, we have to right as a, as a startup for us, you know, if a customer has a problem, the whole company will jump on that problem. Right. So that's where we call it customer obsession internally. Um, and I think that's very much what we've seen, you know, with, with AWS as well as the desire to make the customer successful comes before. Okay. How does this affect a specific Amazon product? Right? Because anytime a customer is, uh, you know, using Dremio on AWS, they're also consuming many different AWS services and they're bringing data into AWS. And so, um, I, I think for both of us, it's all about how do we solve customer problems and make them successful with their data in this case. Yup. >>Solving those customer problems is the whole reason that we're all here. Right. Talk to me a little bit about, um, as we have just a few more minutes here, we, when we hear terms like, future-proof, I always want to dig in with, with folks like yourself, chief product officers, what does it actually mean? How do you enable businesses to create these future-proof data architectures that are gonna allow them to scale and be really competitive? Sure. >>So yeah, I think many companies have been, have experienced. What's known as lock-in right. They, they invest in some technology, you know, we've seen this with, you know, databases and data warehouses, right? You, you start using that and you can really never get off and prices go up and you find out that you're spending 10 times more, especially now with the cloud data warehouses 10 times more than you thought you were going to be spending. And at that point it becomes very difficult. Right? What do you do? And so, um, one of the great things about the data lake and the lake house architecture is that the data stays stored in the customer's own account. Right? It's in their S3 buckets in source formats, like parquet files and iceberg tables. Um, and they can use many different technologies on that. So, you know, today the best technology for, for, you know, sequel and, you know, powering your, your mission critical BI is, is Dremio, but tomorrow they might be something else, right. >>And that customer can then take that, uh, uh, that company can take that new technology point at the same data and start using it right. That they don't have to go through some really crazy migration process. And, you know, we see that with Teradata data and Oracle, right? The, the, the old school vendors, um, that's always been a pain. And now it is with the, with the newer, uh, cloud data warehouses, you see a lot of complaints around that, so that the lake house is fundamentally designed. Especially if you choose open source formats, like iceberg tables, as opposed to say a Delta, like you're, you're really, you know, future-proofing yourself. Right. Um, >>Got it. Talk to me about some of the things as we wrap up here that, that attendees can learn and see and touch and feel and smell at the jumbo booth at this reinvent. >>Yeah. I think there's a, there's a few different things they can, uh, they can watch, uh, watch a demo or play around with the dremmel cloud and they can talk to our team about what we're doing with Apache iceberg. It's a iceberg to me is one of the more exciting projects, uh, in this space because, you know, it's just created by Netflix and apple Salesforce, AWS just announced support for iceberg with that, with their products, Athena and EMR. So it's really kind of emerging as the standard table format, the way to represent data in open formats in S3. We've been behind iceberg now for, for a while. And so that to us is very exciting. We're happy to chat with folks at the booth about that. Um, Nessie is another project that we created an source project for, uh, really providing a good experience for your data, where you have version control and branching, and kind of trying to reinvent, uh, data engineering, data management. So that's another cool project that there, uh, we can talk about at the booth. >>So lots of opportunity there for attendees to learn even thank you, Tomer for joining me on the program today, talking about the difference between a data warehouse data lake, the lake house, did a great job explaining that Jamil cloud what's going on and how you guys are deepening that partnership with AWS. We appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure for Tomer. She ran I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube. Our coverage of AWS reinvent continues after this.