(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase AI Machine Learning Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting startup from the AWS ecosystem to talk about AI and machine learning. I'm your host, John Furrier. I'm joined by two great guests here, Adam Wenchel, who's the CEO of Arthur, and Chief Scientist of Arthur, John Dickerson. Talk about how they help people build better LLM AI systems to get them into the market faster. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us, John. >> Well, I got to say I got to temper my enthusiasm because the last few months explosion of interest in LLMs with ChatGPT, has opened the eyes to everybody around the reality of that this is going next gen, this is it, this is the moment, this is the the point we're going to look back and say, this is the time where AI really hit the scene for real applications. So, a lot of Large Language Models, also known as LLMs, foundational models, and generative AI is all booming. This is where all the alpha developers are going. This is where everyone's focusing their business model transformations on. This is where developers are seeing action. So it's all happening, the wave is here. So I got to ask you guys, what are you guys seeing right now? You're in the middle of it, it's hitting you guys right on. You're in the front end of this massive wave. >> Yeah, John, I don't think you have to temper your enthusiasm at all. I mean, what we're seeing every single day is, everything from existing enterprise customers coming in with new ways that they're rethinking, like business things that they've been doing for many years that they can now do an entirely different way, as well as all manner of new companies popping up, applying LLMs to everything from generating code and SQL statements to generating health transcripts and just legal briefs. Everything you can imagine. And when you actually sit down and look at these systems and the demos we get of them, the hype is definitely justified. It's pretty amazing what they're going to do. And even just internally, we built, about a month ago in January, we built an Arthur chatbot so customers could ask questions, technical questions from our, rather than read our product documentation, they could just ask this LLM a particular question and get an answer. And at the time it was like state of the art, but then just last week we decided to rebuild it because the tooling has changed so much that we, last week, we've completely rebuilt it. It's now way better, built on an entirely different stack. And the tooling has undergone a full generation worth of change in six weeks, which is crazy. So it just tells you how much energy is going into this and how fast it's evolving right now. >> John, weigh in as a chief scientist. I mean, you must be blown away. Talk about kid in the candy store. I mean, you must be looking like this saying, I mean, she must be super busy to begin with, but the change, the acceleration, can you scope the kind of change you're seeing and be specific around the areas you're seeing movement and highly accelerated change? >> Yeah, definitely. And it is very, very exciting actually, thinking back to when ChatGPT was announced, that was a night our company was throwing an event at NeurIPS, which is maybe the biggest machine learning conference out there. And the hype when that happened was palatable and it was just shocking to see how well that performed. And then obviously over the last few months since then, as LLMs have continued to enter the market, we've seen use cases for them, like Adam mentioned all over the place. And so, some things I'm excited about in this space are the use of LLMs and more generally, foundation models to redesign traditional operations, research style problems, logistics problems, like auctions, decisioning problems. So moving beyond the already amazing news cases, like creating marketing content into more core integration and a lot of the bread and butter companies and tasks that drive the American ecosystem. And I think we're just starting to see some of that. And in the next 12 months, I think we're going to see a lot more. If I had to make other predictions, I think we're going to continue seeing a lot of work being done on managing like inference time costs via shrinking models or distillation. And I don't know how to make this prediction, but at some point we're going to be seeing lots of these very large scale models operating on the edge as well. So the time scales are extremely compressed, like Adam mentioned, 12 months from now, hard to say. >> We were talking on theCUBE prior to this session here. We had theCUBE conversation here and then the Wall Street Journal just picked up on the same theme, which is the printing press moment created the enlightenment stage of the history. Here we're in the whole nother automating intellect efficiency, doing heavy lifting, the creative class coming back, a whole nother level of reality around the corner that's being hyped up. The question is, is this justified? Is there really a breakthrough here or is this just another result of continued progress with AI? Can you guys weigh in, because there's two schools of thought. There's the, "Oh my God, we're entering a new enlightenment tech phase, of the equivalent of the printing press in all areas. Then there's, Ah, it's just AI (indistinct) inch by inch. What's your guys' opinion? >> Yeah, I think on the one hand when you're down in the weeds of building AI systems all day, every day, like we are, it's easy to look at this as an incremental progress. Like we have customers who've been building on foundation models since we started the company four years ago, particular in computer vision for classification tasks, starting with pre-trained models, things like that. So that part of it doesn't feel real new, but what does feel new is just when you apply these things to language with all the breakthroughs and computational efficiency, algorithmic improvements, things like that, when you actually sit down and interact with ChatGPT or one of the other systems that's out there that's building on top of LLMs, it really is breathtaking, like, the level of understanding that they have and how quickly you can accelerate your development efforts and get an actual working system in place that solves a really important real world problem and makes people way faster, way more efficient. So I do think there's definitely something there. It's more than just incremental improvement. This feels like a real trajectory inflection point for the adoption of AI. >> John, what's your take on this? As people come into the field, I'm seeing a lot of people move from, hey, I've been coding in Python, I've been doing some development, I've been a software engineer, I'm a computer science student. I'm coding in C++ old school, OG systems person. Where do they come in? Where's the focus, where's the action? Where are the breakthroughs? Where are people jumping in and rolling up their sleeves and getting dirty with this stuff? >> Yeah, all over the place. And it's funny you mentioned students in a different life. I wore a university professor hat and so I'm very, very familiar with the teaching aspects of this. And I will say toward Adam's point, this really is a leap forward in that techniques like in a co-pilot for example, everybody's using them right now and they really do accelerate the way that we develop. When I think about the areas where people are really, really focusing right now, tooling is certainly one of them. Like you and I were chatting about LangChain right before this interview started, two or three people can sit down and create an amazing set of pipes that connect different aspects of the LLM ecosystem. Two, I would say is in engineering. So like distributed training might be one, or just understanding better ways to even be able to train large models, understanding better ways to then distill them or run them. So like this heavy interaction now between engineering and what I might call traditional machine learning from 10 years ago where you had to know a lot of math, you had to know calculus very well, things like that. Now you also need to be, again, a very strong engineer, which is exciting. >> I interviewed Swami when he talked about the news. He's ahead of Amazon's machine learning and AI when they announced Hugging Face announcement. And I reminded him how Amazon was easy to get into if you were developing a startup back in 2007,8, and that the language models had that similar problem. It's step up a lot of content and a lot of expense to get provisioned up, now it's easy. So this is the next wave of innovation. So how do you guys see that from where we are right now? Are we at that point where it's that moment where it's that cloud-like experience for LLMs and large language models? >> Yeah, go ahead John. >> I think the answer is yes. We see a number of large companies that are training these and serving these, some of which are being co-interviewed in this episode. I think we're at that. Like, you can hit one of these with a simple, single line of Python, hitting an API, you can boot this up in seconds if you want. It's easy. >> Got it. >> So I (audio cuts out). >> Well let's take a step back and talk about the company. You guys being featured here on the Showcase. Arthur, what drove you to start the company? How'd this all come together? What's the origination story? Obviously you got a big customers, how'd get started? What are you guys doing? How do you make money? Give a quick overview. >> Yeah, I think John and I come at it from slightly different angles, but for myself, I have been a part of a number of technology companies. I joined Capital One, they acquired my last company and shortly after I joined, they asked me to start their AI team. And so even though I've been doing AI for a long time, I started my career back in DARPA. It was the first time I was really working at scale in AI at an organization where there were hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue at stake with the operation of these models and that they were impacting millions of people's financial livelihoods. And so it just got me hyper-focused on these issues around making sure that your AI worked well and it worked well for your company and it worked well for the people who were being affected by it. At the time when I was doing this 2016, 2017, 2018, there just wasn't any tooling out there to support this production management model monitoring life phase of the life cycle. And so we basically left to start the company that I wanted. And John has a his own story. I'll let let you share that one, John. >> Go ahead John, you're up. >> Yeah, so I'm coming at this from a different world. So I'm on leave now from a tenured role in academia where I was leading a large lab focusing on the intersection of machine learning and economics. And so questions like fairness or the response to the dynamism on the underlying environment have been around for quite a long time in that space. And so I've been thinking very deeply about some of those more like R and D style questions as well as having deployed some automation code across a couple of different industries, some in online advertising, some in the healthcare space and so on, where concerns of, again, fairness come to bear. And so Adam and I connected to understand the space of what that might look like in the 2018 20 19 realm from a quantitative and from a human-centered point of view. And so booted things up from there. >> Yeah, bring that applied engineering R and D into the Capital One, DNA that he had at scale. I could see that fit. I got to ask you now, next step, as you guys move out and think about LLMs and the recent AI news around the generative models and the foundational models like ChatGPT, how should we be looking at that news and everyone watching might be thinking the same thing. I know at the board level companies like, we should refactor our business, this is the future. It's that kind of moment, and the tech team's like, okay, boss, how do we do this again? Or are they prepared? How should we be thinking? How should people watching be thinking about LLMs? >> Yeah, I think they really are transformative. And so, I mean, we're seeing companies all over the place. Everything from large tech companies to a lot of our large enterprise customers are launching significant projects at core parts of their business. And so, yeah, I would be surprised, if you're serious about becoming an AI native company, which most leading companies are, then this is a trend that you need to be taking seriously. And we're seeing the adoption rate. It's funny, I would say the AI adoption in the broader business world really started, let's call it four or five years ago, and it was a relatively slow adoption rate, but I think all that kind of investment in and scaling the maturity curve has paid off because the rate at which people are adopting and deploying systems based on this is tremendous. I mean, this has all just happened in the few months and we're already seeing people get systems into production. So, now there's a lot of things you have to guarantee in order to put these in production in a way that basically is added into your business and doesn't cause more headaches than it solves. And so that's where we help customers is where how do you put these out there in a way that they're going to represent your company well, they're going to perform well, they're going to do their job and do it properly. >> So in the use case, as a customer, as I think about this, there's workflows. They might have had an ML AI ops team that's around IT. Their inference engines are out there. They probably don't have a visibility on say how much it costs, they're kicking the tires. When you look at the deployment, there's a cost piece, there's a workflow piece, there's fairness you mentioned John, what should be, I should be thinking about if I'm going to be deploying stuff into production, I got to think about those things. What's your opinion? >> Yeah, I'm happy to dive in on that one. So monitoring in general is extremely important once you have one of these LLMs in production, and there have been some changes versus traditional monitoring that we can dive deeper into that LLMs are really accelerated. But a lot of that bread and butter style of things you should be looking out for remain just as important as they are for what you might call traditional machine learning models. So the underlying environment of data streams, the way users interact with these models, these are all changing over time. And so any performance metrics that you care about, traditional ones like an accuracy, if you can define that for an LLM, ones around, for example, fairness or bias. If that is a concern for your particular use case and so on. Those need to be tracked. Now there are some interesting changes that LLMs are bringing along as well. So most ML models in production that we see are relatively static in the sense that they're not getting flipped in more than maybe once a day or once a week or they're just set once and then not changed ever again. With LLMs, there's this ongoing value alignment or collection of preferences from users that is often constantly updating the model. And so that opens up all sorts of vectors for, I won't say attack, but for problems to arise in production. Like users might learn to use your system in a different way and thus change the way those preferences are getting collected and thus change your system in ways that you never intended. So maybe that went through governance already internally at the company and now it's totally, totally changed and it's through no fault of your own, but you need to be watching over that for sure. >> Talk about the reinforced learnings from human feedback. How's that factoring in to the LLMs? Is that part of it? Should people be thinking about that? Is that a component that's important? >> It certainly is, yeah. So this is one of the big tweaks that happened with InstructGPT, which is the basis model behind ChatGPT and has since gone on to be used all over the place. So value alignment I think is through RLHF like you mentioned is a very interesting space to get into and it's one that you need to watch over. Like, you're asking humans for feedback over outputs from a model and then you're updating the model with respect to that human feedback. And now you've thrown humans into the loop here in a way that is just going to complicate things. And it certainly helps in many ways. You can ask humans to, let's say that you're deploying an internal chat bot at an enterprise, you could ask humans to align that LLM behind the chatbot to, say company values. And so you're listening feedback about these company values and that's going to scoot that chatbot that you're running internally more toward the kind of language that you'd like to use internally on like a Slack channel or something like that. Watching over that model I think in that specific case, that's a compliance and HR issue as well. So while it is part of the greater LLM stack, you can also view that as an independent bit to watch over. >> Got it, and these are important factors. When people see the Bing news, they freak out how it's doing great. Then it goes off the rails, it goes big, fails big. (laughing) So these models people see that, is that human interaction or is that feedback, is that not accepting it or how do people understand how to take that input in and how to build the right apps around LLMs? This is a tough question. >> Yeah, for sure. So some of the examples that you'll see online where these chatbots go off the rails are obviously humans trying to break the system, but some of them clearly aren't. And that's because these are large statistical models and we don't know what's going to pop out of them all the time. And even if you're doing as much in-house testing at the big companies like the Go-HERE's and the OpenAI's of the world, to try to prevent things like toxicity or racism or other sorts of bad content that might lead to bad pr, you're never going to catch all of these possible holes in the model itself. And so, again, it's very, very important to keep watching over that while it's in production. >> On the business model side, how are you guys doing? What's the approach? How do you guys engage with customers? Take a minute to explain the customer engagement. What do they need? What do you need? How's that work? >> Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So it's really easy to get started. It's literally a matter of like just handing out an API key and people can get started. And so we also offer alternative, we also offer versions that can be installed on-prem for models that, we find a lot of our customers have models that deal with very sensitive data. So you can run it in your cloud account or use our cloud version. And so yeah, it's pretty easy to get started with this stuff. We find people start using it a lot of times during the validation phase 'cause that way they can start baselining performance models, they can do champion challenger, they can really kind of baseline the performance of, maybe they're considering different foundation models. And so it's a really helpful tool for understanding differences in the way these models perform. And then from there they can just flow that into their production inferencing, so that as these systems are out there, you have really kind of real time monitoring for anomalies and for all sorts of weird behaviors as well as that continuous feedback loop that helps you make make your product get better and observability and you can run all sorts of aggregated reports to really understand what's going on with these models when they're out there deciding. I should also add that we just today have another way to adopt Arthur and that is we are in the AWS marketplace, and so we are available there just to make it that much easier to use your cloud credits, skip the procurement process, and get up and running really quickly. >> And that's great 'cause Amazon's got SageMaker, which handles a lot of privacy stuff, all kinds of cool things, or you can get down and dirty. So I got to ask on the next one, production is a big deal, getting stuff into production. What have you guys learned that you could share to folks watching? Is there a cost issue? I got to monitor, obviously you brought that up, we talked about the even reinforcement issues, all these things are happening. What is the big learnings that you could share for people that are going to put these into production to watch out for, to plan for, or be prepared for, hope for the best plan for the worst? What's your advice? >> I can give a couple opinions there and I'm sure Adam has. Well, yeah, the big one from my side is, again, I had mentioned this earlier, it's just the input data streams because humans are also exploring how they can use these systems to begin with. It's really, really hard to predict the type of inputs you're going to be seeing in production. Especially, we always talk about chatbots, but then any generative text tasks like this, let's say you're taking in news articles and summarizing them or something like that, it's very hard to get a good sampling even of the set of news articles in such a way that you can really predict what's going to pop out of that model. So to me, it's, adversarial maybe isn't the word that I would use, but it's an unnatural shifting input distribution of like prompts that you might see for these models. That's certainly one. And then the second one that I would talk about is, it can be hard to understand the costs, the inference time costs behind these LLMs. So the pricing on these is always changing as the models change size, it might go up, it might go down based on model size, based on energy cost and so on, but your pricing per token or per a thousand tokens and that I think can be difficult for some clients to wrap their head around. Again, you don't know how these systems are going to be used after all so it can be tough. And so again that's another metric that really should be tracked. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of trade off choices in there with like, how many tokens do you want at each step and in the sequence and based on, you have (indistinct) and you reject these tokens and so based on how your system's operating, that can make the cost highly variable. And that's if you're using like an API version that you're paying per token. A lot of people also choose to run these internally and as John mentioned, the inference time on these is significantly higher than a traditional classifi, even NLP classification model or tabular data model, like orders of magnitude higher. And so you really need to understand how that, as you're constantly iterating on these models and putting out new versions and new features in these models, how that's affecting the overall scale of that inference cost because you can use a lot of computing power very quickly with these profits. >> Yeah, scale, performance, price all come together. I got to ask while we're here on the secret sauce of the company, if you had to describe to people out there watching, what's the secret sauce of the company? What's the key to your success? >> Yeah, so John leads our research team and they've had a number of really cool, I think AI as much as it's been hyped for a while, it's still commercial AI at least is really in its infancy. And so the way we're able to pioneer new ways to think about performance for computer vision NLP LLMs is probably the thing that I'm proudest about. John and his team publish papers all the time at Navs and other places. But I think it's really being able to define what performance means for basically any kind of model type and give people really powerful tools to understand that on an ongoing basis. >> John, secret sauce, how would you describe it? You got all the action happening all around you. >> Yeah, well I going to appreciate Adam talking me up like that. No, I. (all laughing) >> Furrier: Robs to you. >> I would also say a couple of other things here. So we have a very strong engineering team and so I think some early hires there really set the standard at a very high bar that we've maintained as we've grown. And I think that's really paid dividends as scalabilities become even more of a challenge in these spaces, right? And so that's not just scalability when it comes to LLMs, that's scalability when it comes to millions of inferences per day, that kind of thing as well in traditional ML models. And I think that's compared to potential competitors, that's really... Well, it's made us able to just operate more efficiently and pass that along to the client. >> Yeah, and I think the infancy comment is really important because it's the beginning. You really is a long journey ahead. A lot of change coming, like I said, it's a huge wave. So I'm sure you guys got a lot of plannings at the foundation even for your own company, so I appreciate the candid response there. Final question for you guys is, what should the top things be for a company in 2023? If I'm going to set the agenda and I'm a customer moving forward, putting the pedal to the metal, so to speak, what are the top things I should be prioritizing or I need to do to be successful with AI in 2023? >> Yeah, I think, so number one, as we talked about, we've been talking about this entire episode, the things are changing so quickly and the opportunities for business transformation and really disrupting different applications, different use cases, is almost, I don't think we've even fully comprehended how big it is. And so really digging in to your business and understanding where I can apply these new sets of foundation models is, that's a top priority. The interesting thing is I think there's another force at play, which is the macroeconomic conditions and a lot of places are, they're having to work harder to justify budgets. So in the past, couple years ago maybe, they had a blank check to spend on AI and AI development at a lot of large enterprises that was limited primarily by the amount of talent they could scoop up. Nowadays these expenditures are getting scrutinized more. And so one of the things that we really help our customers with is like really calculating the ROI on these things. And so if you have models out there performing and you have a new version that you can put out that lifts the performance by 3%, how many tens of millions of dollars does that mean in business benefit? Or if I want to go to get approval from the CFO to spend a few million dollars on this new project, how can I bake in from the beginning the tools to really show the ROI along the way? Because I think in these systems when done well for a software project, the ROI can be like pretty spectacular. Like we see over a hundred percent ROI in the first year on some of these projects. And so, I think in 2023, you just need to be able to show what you're getting for that spend. >> It's a needle moving moment. You see it all the time with some of these aha moments or like, whoa, blown away. John, I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that comes up a lot for companies that I talked to, that are on my second wave, I would say coming in, maybe not, maybe the front wave of adopters is talent and team building. You mentioned some of the hires you got were game changing for you guys and set the bar high. As you move the needle, new developers going to need to come in. What's your advice given that you've been a professor, you've seen students, I know a lot of computer science people want to shift, they might not be yet skilled in AI, but they're proficient in programming, is that's going to be another opportunity with open source when things are happening. How do you talk to that next level of talent that wants to come in to this market to supplement teams and be on teams, lead teams? Any advice you have for people who want to build their teams and people who are out there and want to be a coder in AI? >> Yeah, I've advice, and this actually works for what it would take to be a successful AI company in 2023 as well, which is, just don't be afraid to iterate really quickly with these tools. The space is still being explored on what they can be used for. A lot of the tasks that they're used for now right? like creating marketing content using a machine learning is not a new thing to do. It just works really well now. And so I'm excited to see what the next year brings in terms of folks from outside of core computer science who are, other engineers or physicists or chemists or whatever who are learning how to use these increasingly easy to use tools to leverage LLMs for tasks that I think none of us have really thought about before. So that's really, really exciting. And so toward that I would say iterate quickly. Build things on your own, build demos, show them the friends, host them online and you'll learn along the way and you'll have somebody to show for it. And also you'll help us explore that space. >> Guys, congratulations with Arthur. Great company, great picks and shovels opportunities out there for everybody. Iterate fast, get in quickly and don't be afraid to iterate. Great advice and thank you for coming on and being part of the AWS showcase, thanks. >> Yeah, thanks for having us on John. Always a pleasure. >> Yeah, great stuff. Adam Wenchel, John Dickerson with Arthur. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Generative AI and AWS. Keep it right there for more action with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We've got a great conversation featuring Arthur AI. I'm your host. I'm excited to have Adam Wenchel who's the Co-Founder and CEO. Thanks for joining us today, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks for having me on, John, looking forward to the conversation. >> I got to say, it's been an exciting world in AI or artificial intelligence. Just an explosion of interest kind of in the mainstream with the language models, which people don't really get, but they're seeing the benefits of some of the hype around OpenAI. Which kind of wakes everyone up to, "Oh, I get it now." And then of course the pessimism comes in, all the skeptics are out there. But this breakthrough in generative AI field is just awesome, it's really a shift, it's a wave. We've been calling it probably the biggest inflection point, then the others combined of what this can do from a surge standpoint, applications. I mean, all aspects of what we used to know is the computing industry, software industry, hardware, is completely going to get turbo. So we're totally obviously bullish on this thing. So, this is really interesting. So my first question is, I got to ask you, what's you guys taking? 'Cause you've been doing this, you're in it, and now all of a sudden you're at the beach where the big waves are. What's the explosion of interest is there? What are you seeing right now? >> Yeah, I mean, it's amazing, so for starters, I've been in AI for over 20 years and just seeing this amount of excitement and the growth, and like you said, the inflection point we've hit in the last six months has just been amazing. And, you know, what we're seeing is like people are getting applications into production using LLMs. I mean, really all this excitement just started a few months ago, with ChatGPT and other breakthroughs and the amount of activity and the amount of new systems that we're seeing hitting production already so soon after that is just unlike anything we've ever seen. So it's pretty awesome. And, you know, these language models are just, they could be applied in so many different business contexts and that it's just the amount of value that's being created is again, like unprecedented compared to anything. >> Adam, you know, you've been in this for a while, so it's an interesting point you're bringing up, and this is a good point. I was talking with my friend John Markoff, former New York Times journalist and he was talking about, there's been a lot of work been done on ethics. So there's been, it's not like it's new. It's like been, there's a lot of stuff that's been baking over many, many years and, you know, decades. So now everyone wakes up in the season, so I think that is a key point I want to get into some of your observations. But before we get into it, I want you to explain for the folks watching, just so we can kind of get a definition on the record. What's an LLM, what's a foundational model and what's generative ai? Can you just quickly explain the three things there? >> Yeah, absolutely. So an LLM or a large language model, it's just a large, they would imply a large language model that's been trained on a huge amount of data typically pulled from the internet. And it's a general purpose language model that can be built on top for all sorts of different things, that includes traditional NLP tasks like document classification and sentiment understanding. But the thing that's gotten people really excited is it's used for generative tasks. So, you know, asking it to summarize documents or asking it to answer questions. And these aren't new techniques, they've been around for a while, but what's changed is just this new class of models that's based on new architectures. They're just so much more capable that they've gone from sort of science projects to something that's actually incredibly useful in the real world. And there's a number of companies that are making them accessible to everyone so that you can build on top of them. So that's the other big thing is, this kind of access to these models that can power generative tasks has been democratized in the last few months and it's just opening up all these new possibilities. And then the third one you mentioned foundation models is sort of a broader term for the category that includes LLMs, but it's not just language models that are included. So we've actually seen this for a while in the computer vision world. So people have been building on top of computer vision models, pre-trained computer vision models for a while for image classification, object detection, that's something we've had customers doing for three or four years already. And so, you know, like you said, there are antecedents to like, everything that's happened, it's not entirely new, but it does feel like a step change. >> Yeah, I did ask ChatGPT to give me a riveting introduction to you and it gave me an interesting read. If we have time, I'll read it. It's kind of, it's fun, you get a kick out of it. "Ladies and gentlemen, today we're a privileged "to have Adam Wenchel, Founder of Arthur who's going to talk "about the exciting world of artificial intelligence." And then it goes on with some really riveting sentences. So if we have time, I'll share that, it's kind of funny. It was good. >> Okay. >> So anyway, this is what people see and this is why I think it's exciting 'cause I think people are going to start refactoring what they do. And I've been saying this on theCUBE now for about a couple months is that, you know, there's a scene in "Moneyball" where Billy Beane sits down with the Red Sox owner and the Red Sox owner says, "If people aren't rebuilding their teams on your model, "they're going to be dinosaurs." And it reminds me of what's happening right now. And I think everyone that I talk to in the business sphere is looking at this and they're connecting the dots and just saying, if we don't rebuild our business with this new wave, they're going to be out of business because there's so much efficiency, there's so much automation, not like DevOps automation, but like the generative tasks that will free up the intellect of people. Like just the simple things like do an intro or do this for me, write some code, write a countermeasure to a hack. I mean, this is kind of what people are doing. And you mentioned computer vision, again, another huge field where 5G things are coming on, it's going to accelerate. What do you say to people when they kind of are leaning towards that, I need to rethink my business? >> Yeah, it's 100% accurate and what's been amazing to watch the last few months is the speed at which, and the urgency that companies like Microsoft and Google or others are actually racing to, to do that rethinking of their business. And you know, those teams, those companies which are large and haven't always been the fastest moving companies are working around the clock. And the pace at which they're rolling out LLMs across their suite of products is just phenomenal to watch. And it's not just the big, the large tech companies as well, I mean, we're seeing the number of startups, like we get, every week a couple of new startups get in touch with us for help with their LLMs and you know, there's just a huge amount of venture capital flowing into it right now because everyone realizes the opportunities for transforming like legal and healthcare and content creation in all these different areas is just wide open. And so there's a massive gold rush going on right now, which is amazing. >> And the cloud scale, obviously horizontal scalability of the cloud brings us to another level. We've been seeing data infrastructure since the Hadoop days where big data was coined. Now you're seeing this kind of take fruit, now you have vertical specialization where data shines, large language models all of a set up perfectly for kind of this piece. And you know, as you mentioned, you've been doing it for a long time. Let's take a step back and I want to get into how you started the company, what drove you to start it? Because you know, as an entrepreneur you're probably saw this opportunity before other people like, "Hey, this is finally it, it's here." Can you share the origination story of what you guys came up with, how you started it, what was the motivation and take us through that origination story. >> Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, I've been doing AI for many years. I started my career at DARPA, but it wasn't really until 2015, 2016, my previous company was acquired by Capital One. Then I started working there and shortly after I joined, I was asked to start their AI team and scale it up. And for the first time I was actually doing it, had production models that we were working with, that was at scale, right? And so there was hundreds of millions of dollars of business revenue and certainly a big group of customers who were impacted by the way these models acted. And so it got me hyper-aware of these issues of when you get models into production, it, you know. So I think people who are earlier in the AI maturity look at that as a finish line, but it's really just the beginning and there's this constant drive to make them better, make sure they're not degrading, make sure you can explain what they're doing, if they're impacting people, making sure they're not biased. And so at that time, there really weren't any tools to exist to do this, there wasn't open source, there wasn't anything. And so after a few years there, I really started talking to other people in the industry and there was a really clear theme that this needed to be addressed. And so, I joined with my Co-Founder John Dickerson, who was on the faculty in University of Maryland and he'd been doing a lot of research in these areas. And so we ended up joining up together and starting Arthur. >> Awesome. Well, let's get into what you guys do. Can you explain the value proposition? What are people using you for now? Where's the action? What's the customers look like? What do prospects look like? Obviously you mentioned production, this has been the theme. It's not like people woke up one day and said, "Hey, I'm going to put stuff into production." This has kind of been happening. There's been companies that have been doing this at scale and then yet there's a whole follower model coming on mainstream enterprise and businesses. So there's kind of the early adopters are there now in production. What do you guys do? I mean, 'cause I think about just driving the car off the lot is not, you got to manage operations. I mean, that's a big thing. So what do you guys do? Talk about the value proposition and how you guys make money? >> Yeah, so what we do is, listen, when you go to validate ahead of deploying these models in production, starts at that point, right? So you want to make sure that if you're going to be upgrading a model, if you're going to replacing one that's currently in production, that you've proven that it's going to perform well, that it's going to be perform ethically and that you can explain what it's doing. And then when you launch it into production, traditionally data scientists would spend 25, 30% of their time just manually checking in on their model day-to-day babysitting as we call it, just to make sure that the data hasn't drifted, the model performance hasn't degraded, that a programmer did make a change in an upstream data system. You know, there's all sorts of reasons why the world changes and that can have a real adverse effect on these models. And so what we do is bring the same kind of automation that you have for other kinds of, let's say infrastructure monitoring, application monitoring, we bring that to your AI systems. And that way if there ever is an issue, it's not like weeks or months till you find it and you find it before it has an effect on your P&L and your balance sheet, which is too often before they had tools like Arthur, that was the way they were detected. >> You know, I was talking to Swami at Amazon who I've known for a long time for 13 years and been on theCUBE multiple times and you know, I watched Amazon try to pick up that sting with stage maker about six years ago and so much has happened since then. And he and I were talking about this wave, and I kind of brought up this analogy to how when cloud started, it was, Hey, I don't need a data center. 'Cause when I did my startup that time when Amazon, one of my startups at that time, my choice was put a box in the colo, get all the configuration before I could write over the line of code. So the cloud became the benefit for that and you can stand up stuff quickly and then it grew from there. Here it's kind of the same dynamic, you don't want to have to provision a large language model or do all this heavy lifting. So that seeing companies coming out there saying, you can get started faster, there's like a new way to get it going. So it's kind of like the same vibe of limiting that heavy lifting. >> Absolutely. >> How do you look at that because this seems to be a wave that's going to be coming in and how do you guys help companies who are going to move quickly and start developing? >> Yeah, so I think in the race to this kind of gold rush mentality, race to get these models into production, there's starting to see more sort of examples and evidence that there are a lot of risks that go along with it. Either your model says things, your system says things that are just wrong, you know, whether it's hallucination or just making things up, there's lots of examples. If you go on Twitter and the news, you can read about those, as well as sort of times when there could be toxic content coming out of things like that. And so there's a lot of risks there that you need to think about and be thoughtful about when you're deploying these systems. But you know, you need to balance that with the business imperative of getting these things into production and really transforming your business. And so that's where we help people, we say go ahead, put them in production, but just make sure you have the right guardrails in place so that you can do it in a smart way that's going to reflect well on you and your company. >> Let's frame the challenge for the companies now that you have, obviously there's the people who doing large scale production and then you have companies maybe like as small as us who have large linguistic databases or transcripts for example, right? So what are customers doing and why are they deploying AI right now? And is it a speed game, is it a cost game? Why have some companies been able to deploy AI at such faster rates than others? And what's a best practice to onboard new customers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, we're seeing across a bunch of different verticals, there are leaders who have really kind of started to solve this puzzle about getting AI models into production quickly and being able to iterate on them quickly. And I think those are the ones that realize that imperative that you mentioned earlier about how transformational this technology is. And you know, a lot of times, even like the CEOs or the boards are very personally kind of driving this sense of urgency around it. And so, you know, that creates a lot of movement, right? And so those companies have put in place really smart infrastructure and rails so that people can, data scientists aren't encumbered by having to like hunt down data, get access to it. They're not encumbered by having to stand up new platforms every time they want to deploy an AI system, but that stuff is already in place. There's a really nice ecosystem of products out there, including Arthur, that you can tap into. Compared to five or six years ago when I was building at a top 10 US bank, at that point you really had to build almost everything yourself and that's not the case now. And so it's really nice to have things like, you know, you mentioned AWS SageMaker and a whole host of other tools that can really accelerate things. >> What's your profile customer? Is it someone who already has a team or can people who are learning just dial into the service? What's the persona? What's the pitch, if you will, how do you align with that customer value proposition? Do people have to be built out with a team and in play or is it pre-production or can you start with people who are just getting going? >> Yeah, people do start using it pre-production for validation, but I think a lot of our customers do have a team going and they're starting to put, either close to putting something into production or about to, it's everything from large enterprises that have really sort of complicated, they have dozens of models running all over doing all sorts of use cases to tech startups that are very focused on a single problem, but that's like the lifeblood of the company and so they need to guarantee that it works well. And you know, we make it really easy to get started, especially if you're using one of the common model development platforms, you can just kind of turn key, get going and make sure that you have a nice feedback loop. So then when your models are out there, it's pointing out, areas where it's performing well, areas where it's performing less well, giving you that feedback so that you can make improvements, whether it's in training data or futurization work or algorithm selection. There's a number of, you know, depending on the symptoms, there's a number of things you can do to increase performance over time and we help guide people on that journey. >> So Adam, I have to ask, since you have such a great customer base and they're smart and they got teams and you're on the front end, I mean, early adopters is kind of an overused word, but they're killing it. They're putting stuff in the production's, not like it's a test, it's not like it's early. So as the next wave comes of fast followers, how do you see that coming online? What's your vision for that? How do you see companies that are like just waking up out of the frozen, you know, freeze of like old IT to like, okay, they got cloud, but they're not yet there. What do you see in the market? I see you're in the front end now with the top people really nailing AI and working hard. What's the- >> Yeah, I think a lot of these tools are becoming, or every year they get easier, more accessible, easier to use. And so, you know, even for that kind of like, as the market broadens, it takes less and less of a lift to put these systems in place. And the thing is, every business is unique, they have their own kind of data and so you can use these foundation models which have just been trained on generic data. They're a great starting point, a great accelerant, but then, in most cases you're either going to want to create a model or fine tune a model using data that's really kind of comes from your particular customers, the people you serve and so that it really reflects that and takes that into account. And so I do think that these, like the size of that market is expanding and its broadening as these tools just become easier to use and also the knowledge about how to build these systems becomes more widespread. >> Talk about your customer base you have now, what's the makeup, what size are they? Give a taste a little bit of a customer base you got there, what's they look like? I'll say Capital One, we know very well while you were at there, they were large scale, lot of data from fraud detection to all kinds of cool stuff. What do your customers now look like? >> Yeah, so we have a variety, but I would say one area we're really strong, we have several of the top 10 US banks, that's not surprising, that's a strength for us, but we also have Fortune 100 customers in healthcare, in manufacturing, in retail, in semiconductor and electronics. So what we find is like in any sort of these major verticals, there's typically, you know, one, two, three kind of companies that are really leading the charge and are the ones that, you know, in our opinion, those are the ones that for the next multiple decades are going to be the leaders, the ones that really kind of lead the charge on this AI transformation. And so we're very fortunate to be working with some of those. And then we have a number of startups as well who we love working with just because they're really pushing the boundaries technologically and so they provide great feedback and make sure that we're continuing to innovate and staying abreast of everything that's going on. >> You know, these early markups, even when the hyperscalers were coming online, they had to build everything themselves. That's the new, they're like the alphas out there building it. This is going to be a big wave again as that fast follower comes in. And so when you look at the scale, what advice would you give folks out there right now who want to tee it up and what's your secret sauce that will help them get there? >> Yeah, I think that the secret to teeing it up is just dive in and start like the, I think these are, there's not really a secret. I think it's amazing how accessible these are. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to access LLMs either via either API access or downloadable in some cases. And so, you know, go ahead and get started. And then our secret sauce really is the way that we provide that performance analysis of what's going on, right? So we can tell you in a very actionable way, like, hey, here's where your model is doing good things, here's where it's doing bad things. Here's something you want to take a look at, here's some potential remedies for it. We can help guide you through that. And that way when you're putting it out there, A, you're avoiding a lot of the common pitfalls that people see and B, you're able to really kind of make it better in a much faster way with that tight feedback loop. >> It's interesting, we've been kind of riffing on this supercloud idea because it was just different name than multicloud and you see apps like Snowflake built on top of AWS without even spending any CapEx, you just ride that cloud wave. This next AI, super AI wave is coming. I don't want to call AIOps because I think there's a different distinction. If you, MLOps and AIOps seem a little bit old, almost a few years back, how do you view that because everyone's is like, "Is this AIOps?" And like, "No, not kind of, but not really." How would you, you know, when someone says, just shoots off the hip, "Hey Adam, aren't you doing AIOps?" Do you say, yes we are, do you say, yes, but we do differently because it's doesn't seem like it's the same old AIOps. What's your- >> Yeah, it's a good question. AIOps has been a term that was co-opted for other things and MLOps also has people have used it for different meanings. So I like the term just AI infrastructure, I think it kind of like describes it really well and succinctly. >> But you guys are doing the ops. I mean that's the kind of ironic thing, it's like the next level, it's like NextGen ops, but it's not, you don't want to be put in that bucket. >> Yeah, no, it's very operationally focused platform that we have, I mean, it fires alerts, people can action off them. If you're familiar with like the way people run security operations centers or network operations centers, we do that for data science, right? So think of it as a DSOC, a Data Science Operations Center where all your models, you might have hundreds of models running across your organization, you may have five, but as problems are detected, alerts can be fired and you can actually work the case, make sure they're resolved, escalate them as necessary. And so there is a very strong operational aspect to it, you're right. >> You know, one of the things I think is interesting is, is that, if you don't mind commenting on it, is that the aspect of scale is huge and it feels like that was made up and now you have scale and production. What's your reaction to that when people say, how does scale impact this? >> Yeah, scale is huge for some of, you know, I think, I think look, the highest leverage business areas to apply these to, are generally going to be the ones at the biggest scale, right? And I think that's one of the advantages we have. Several of us come from enterprise backgrounds and we're used to doing things enterprise grade at scale and so, you know, we're seeing more and more companies, I think they started out deploying AI and sort of, you know, important but not necessarily like the crown jewel area of their business, but now they're deploying AI right in the heart of things and yeah, the scale that some of our companies are operating at is pretty impressive. >> John: Well, super exciting, great to have you on and congratulations. I got a final question for you, just random. What are you most excited about right now? Because I mean, you got to be pretty pumped right now with the way the world is going and again, I think this is just the beginning. What's your personal view? How do you feel right now? >> Yeah, the thing I'm really excited about for the next couple years now, you touched on it a little bit earlier, but is a sort of convergence of AI and AI systems with sort of turning into AI native businesses. And so, as you sort of do more, get good further along this transformation curve with AI, it turns out that like the better the performance of your AI systems, the better the performance of your business. Because these models are really starting to underpin all these key areas that cumulatively drive your P&L. And so one of the things that we work a lot with our customers is to do is just understand, you know, take these really esoteric data science notions and performance and tie them to all their business KPIs so that way you really are, it's kind of like the operating system for running your AI native business. And we're starting to see more and more companies get farther along that maturity curve and starting to think that way, which is really exciting. >> I love the AI native. I haven't heard any startup yet say AI first, although we kind of use the term, but I guarantee that's going to come in all the pitch decks, we're an AI first company, it's going to be great run. Adam, congratulations on your success to you and the team. Hey, if we do a few more interviews, we'll get the linguistics down. We can have bots just interact with you directly and ask you, have an interview directly. >> That sounds good, I'm going to go hang out on the beach, right? So, sounds good. >> Thanks for coming on, really appreciate the conversation. Super exciting, really important area and you guys doing great work. Thanks for coming on. >> Adam: Yeah, thanks John. >> Again, this is Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto, AI going next gen. This is legit, this is going to a whole nother level that's going to open up huge opportunities for startups, that's going to use opportunities for investors and the value to the users and the experience will come in, in ways I think no one will ever see. So keep an eye out for more coverage on siliconangle.com and theCUBE.net, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Well, hello everybody. I'm John Walls here with the cube, and we're very happy to continue our coverage here of a splunk.com 21. And today we're going to talk about cyber security. Uh, obviously everybody is well aware of a number of, uh, breaches that have happened around the globe, but you might say there's been a surge in trying to prevent those from happening down the road. And I'm going to let our guests explain that Ryan Covar, who is the security strategist at Splunk. Ryan. Good to see you with, uh, with us here on the cube. Glad you could join us today. >>Thank you very much. I've wished we could have been doing this in person, but such as the time of life we live. >>Yeah. We have learned to live on zoom that's for sure. And, uh, it's the next best thing to being there. So, uh, again, thanks for that. Um, well, let's talk about surge, if you will. Um, uh, I know obviously Splunk and data security go hand in hand that is a high priority with the, with the company, but now you have a new initiative that you're just now rolling out to take that to an even higher level. Tell us about that. >>Yeah, something I'm extremely excited to announce. Uh, it's the first time we're really talking about it is that.com 21, which is wonderful. And it's kind of the culmination of my seven years here at Splunk. Uh, before I came to Splunk, I did about 20 years of cyber security research and defense and nation state hunting and threat intelligence and policy and compliance, and just about everything, uh, public sector in the U S and the UK private sector, a couple of different places. So I've kind of been around the block. And one of the things I've found that I'm really passionate about is just being a network defender or a blue teamer. And a lot of my time here at Splunk has been around that. It's been speaking at conferences, doing research, um, coming up with ways to basically defend organizations, but the tools they have at hand and something that we say Alon is, uh, we, we work on the problems of today and tomorrow, not the distant future, right? >>The really practical things. And we had an, you know, there was a little bit of a thing called solar winds. You might've heard of it. Um, that happened earlier in December and we were able to stand up kind of on an ad hoc ragtag group of Splunkers around the world, uh, in a matter of hours. And we worked about 24 hours for panning over to Australia, into a Mia, and then back over to America and able to publish really helpful work to, for our customers to detect or defend or mitigate against what we knew at the time around solar winds, the attack. And then as time went on, we were continuing to write and create material, but we didn't have a group that was focused on it. We were all kind of chipping in after hours or, you know, deep deprecating, other bits of work. >>And I said, you know, we really need to focus on this. This is a big deal. And how can we actually surge up to meet these needs if you will, uh, the play on the punter. So we created an idea of a small team, a dedicated to current events and also doing security research around the problems that are facing around the world insecurity who use Splunk and maybe even those who don't. And that's where the idea of this team was formed. And we've been working all summer. We're releasing our first research project, excuse me, uh, at.com, which is around supply chain, compromise using jaw three Zeke and Splunk, uh, author by myself and primarily Marcus law era. And we have other research projects coming out every quarter, along with doing this work around, just helping people with any sort of immediate cybersecurity threat that we're able to assist with. >>So what are you hoping that security teams can get out of this work? Obviously you're investing a lot of resources and doing the research, I assume, diversifying, you know, the areas and to which you're, um, exploring, um, ultimately what would be the takeaway if I was on the other end, if I was on the client and what would you hope that I would be, uh, extracting from this work? >>Sure. We want to get you promoted. I mean, that's kind of the, the joke of it, but we, we talk a lot. I want to make everyone in the world who use a Splunk or cybersecurity, looked into their bosses and defend their company as fast and quickly as possible. So one of the big, mandates for my team is creating consumable, actionable work and research. So we, you know, we joke a lot that, you know, I have a pretty thick beard here. One might even call it a neck beard and a lot of people in our community, we create things for what I would call wizards, cybersecurity wizards, and we go to conferences and we talk from wizard to wizard, and we kind of sit on our ivory tower on stage and kind of proclaim out how to do things. And I've sat on the other side and sometimes those sound great, but they're not actually helping people with their job today. And so the takeaway for me, what I hope people are able to take away is we're here for you. We're here for the little guys, the network defenders, we're creating things that we're hoping you can immediately take home and implement and do and make better detections and really find the things that are immediate threats to your network and not necessarily having to, you know, create a whole new environment or apply magic. So >>Is there a difference then in terms of say enterprise threats, as opposed to, if I'm a small business or of a medium sized business, maybe I have four or 500 employees as opposed to four or 5,000 or 40,000. Um, what about, you know, finding that ground where you can address both of those levels of, of business and of concern, >>You know, 20 years ago or 10 years ago? I would've answered that question very differently and I fully acknowledge I have a bias in nation state threats. That's what I'm primarily trained in, however, in the last five years, uh, thanks or not. Thanks to ransomware. What we're seeing is the same threats that are affecting and impacting fortune 100 fortune 10 companies. The entire federal government of the United States are the exact same threats that are actually impacting and causing havoc on smaller organizations and businesses. So the reality is in today's threat landscape. I do believe actually the threat is the same to each, but it is not the same level of capabilities for a 100% or 500 person company to a company, the size of Splunk or a fortune 100 company. Um, and that's something that we are actually focusing on is how do we create things to help every size of that business, >>Giving me the tools, right, exactly. >>Which is giving you the power to fight that battle yourself as much as possible, because you may never be able to have the head count of a fortune 100 company, but thanks to the power of software and tools and things like the cloud, you might have some force multipliers that we're hoping to create for you in a much more package consumable method. >>Yeah. Let's go back to the research that you mentioned. Um, how did you pick the first topic? I mean, because this is your, your splash and, and I'm sure there was a lot of thought put into where do we want to dive in >>First? You know, I'd love to say there was a lot of thought put into it because it would make me sound smarter, but it was something we all just immediately knew was a gap. Um, you know, solar winds, which was a supply chain, compromise attack really revealed to many of us something that, um, you know, reporters had been talking about for years, but we never really saw come to fruition was a real actionable threat. And when we started looking at our library of offerings and what we could actually help customers with, I talked over 175 federal and private sector companies around the world in a month and a half after solar winds. And a lot of times the answer was, yeah, we can't really help you with this specific part of the problem. We can help you around all sorts of other places, but like, gosh, how do you actually detect this? >>And there's not a great answer. And that really bothered me. And to be perfectly honest, that was part of the reason that we founded the team. So it was a very obvious next step was, well, this is why we're creating the team. Then our first product should probably be around this problem. And then you say, okay, supply chain, that's really big. That's a huge chunk of work. So the first question is like, well, what can we actually affect change on without talking about things like quantum computing, right? Which are all things that are, you know, blockchain, quantum computing, these are all solutions that are actually possible to solve or mitigate supply chain compromise, but it's not happening today. And it sure as heck isn't even happening tomorrow. So how do we create something that's digestible today? And so what Marcus did, and one of his true skillsets is really refining the problem down, down, down, down. >>And where can we get to the point of, Hey, this is data that we think most organizations have a chance of collecting. These are methodologies that we think people can do and how can they actually implement them with success in their network. And then we test that and then we kind of keep doing a huge fan of the concept of OODA loop, orient, orient, observe, decide, and act. And we do that through our hypothesizing. We kind of keep looking at that and iterating over and over and over again, until we're able to come up with a solution that seems to be applicable for the personas that we're trying to help. And that's where we got out with this research of, Hey, collect network data, use a tool like Splunk and some of our built-in statistical analysis functions and come out the other side. And I'll be honest, we're not solving the problem. >>We're helping you with the problem. And I think that's a key differentiator of what we're saying is there is no silver bullet and frankly, anyone that tells you they can solve supply chain, uh, let me know, cause I want to join that hot new startup. Um, the reality is we can help you go from a field of haystacks to a single haystack and inside that single haystack, there's a needle, right? And there's actually a lot of value in that because before the PR problem was unapproachable, and now we've gotten it down to saying like, Hey, use your traditional tools, use your traditional analytic craft on a much smaller set of data where we've pretty much verified that there's something here, but look right here. And that's where we kind of focused. >>You talked about, you know, and we all know about the importance and really the emphasis that's put on data protection, right? Um, at the same time, can you use data to help you protect? I mean, is there information or insight that could be gleaned from, from data that whether it's behavior or whatever the case might be, that, that not only, uh, is something that you can operationalize and it's a good thing for your business, but you could also put it into practice in terms of your security practices to >>A hundred percent. The, the undervalued aspect of cybersecurity in my opinion, is elbow grease. Um, you can buy a lot of tools, uh, but the reality is to get value immediately. Usually the easiest place to start is just doing the hard detail oriented work. And so when you ask, is there data that can help you immediately data analytics? Actually, I go to, um, knowing what you have in your network, knowing what you have, that you're actually trying to protect asset and inventory, CMDB, things like this, which is not attractive. It's not something people want to talk about, but it's actually the basis of all good security. How do you possibly defend something if you don't know what you're defending and where it is. And something that we found in our research was in order to detect and find anomalous behavior of systems communicating outbound, um, it's too much. >>So what you have to do is limit the scope down to those critical assets that you're most concerned about and a perfect example of critical asset. And there's no, no shame or victim blaming here, put on solar winds. Uh, it's just that, that is an example of an appliance server that has massive impact on the organization as we saw in 2020. And how can you actually find that if you don't know where it is? So really that first step is taking the data that you already have and saying, let's find all the systems that we're trying to protect. And what's often known as a crown jewels approach, and then applying these advanced analytics on top of those crown jewel approaches to limit the data scope and really get it to just what you're trying to protect. And once you're positive that you have that fairly well defended, then you go out to the next tier and the next tier in next year. And that's a great approach, take things you're already doing today and applying them and getting better results tomorrow. >>No, before I let you go, um, I I'd like to just have you put a, uh, a bow on surge, if you will, on that package, why is this a big deal to you? It's been a long time in the making. I know you're very happy about the rollout of this week. Um, you know, what's the impact you want to have? Why is it important? >>We did a lot of literature review. I have a very analytical background. My time working at DARPA taught me a lot about doing research and development and on laying out the value of failure, um, and how much sometimes even failing as long as you talk about it and talk about your approach and methodology and share that is important. And the other part of this is I see a lot of work done by many other wonderful organizations, uh, but they're really solving for a problem further down the road or they're creating solutions that not everyone can implement. And so what I think is so important and what's different about our team is we're not only thinking differently, we're hiring differently. You know, we have people who have a threat intelligence background from the white house. We have another researcher who did 10 years at DARPA insecurity, research and development. >>Uh, we've recently hired a, a former journalist who she's made a career pivot into cybersecurity, and she's helping us really review the data and what people are facing and come up with a real connection to make sure we are tackling the right problems. And so to me, what I'm most excited about is we're not only trying to solve different problems. And I think what most of the world is looking at for cybersecurity research, we've staffed it to be different, think different and come up with things that are probably a little less, um, normal than everyone's seen before. And I'm excited about that. >>Well, and, and rightly so, uh, Ryan, thanks for the time, a pleasure to have you here on the cube and, uh, the information again, the initiative is Serge, check it out, uh, spunk very much active in the cyber security protection business. And so we have certainly appreciate that effort. Thank you, Ryan. >>Well, thank you very much, John. You bet Ryan, >>Covar joining us here on our cube coverage. We continue our coverage of.com for 21.

>>from the bellagio hotel in Las Vegas >>it's the >>cube >>covering Ui >>Path Forward four brought to you >>by Ui Path. >>Welcome back to las Vegas. The cube is live with you. I Path forward four at the bellagio lisa martin with Dave Volonte. We're gonna be talking about you I Path integration suite, we have a couple of guests joining us here. Mark Jeannie is here the GM of Ui Path, formerly the co founder and Ceo of cloud elements and Peter Villeroy also joins us Director of Global I. T. Automation practice at UI Path guys welcome to the program. >>Thanks lisa. Great to hear. >>So Mark, let's go ahead and start with you. The Cloud elements acquisition was done in about the last six months. Talk to us about why you chose to be acquired by Ui Path and where things are today. Some big announcements yesterday. >>Yeah absolutely. So yeah if you go back six months ago um you know we have been in conversations with you I Path for for quite a while and um you know as we were looking at our opportunities as an api integration platform. So cloud elements just to step back a little bit um was a leader in helping companies take a P. I. S integrate applications together and bed that into their into their apps and um you know I Path approached us about the combination of what's happening in the automation world and you know these these have been a society as the marine Fleming from I. D. C. Mentioned this morning integration and DARPA have been separate swim lanes and what we saw and what you I. Path approaches with was ability to combine these together and really be the first company to take and take ui automation and seamlessly connected together with A. P. I. Automation or api integration >>Peter What's been some of the feedback? We know you guys are more than 9000 customers strong now we've had a whole bunch of amount yesterday and today. What's been the feedback so far on the cloud elements acquisition? So >>there's a huge amount of interest. We've had very positive feedback on that lisa the combination of Ui driven automation and A. P. I. Uh Native Integrations is is key especially to the I. T. Leadership that I work with. Um some of whom have traditionally compartmentalized you ipads platform in the Ui space and legitimately think about their own internal processes as being having very little to do with the user interface right. And so combining Ui driven automation together with uh api integration really helps too pick them up where they are and show them the power of that kind of a hyper automation platform that can deliver value in a number of spaces. And you guys ever >>see the movie Blindside? All right. You know what I'm talking about with joe. Theismann gets hit from the blind side and then his career is over and and that's when people realized oh my gosh the left tackle for right handed quarterback is so important and it's subsequent drafts when somebody would pick a left tackle like a good left all the rest went and that's what's happening in in the automation business today. You guys took the lead, you you set the trend. People said wow this is actually going to be a huge market. And then now we're seeing all this gonna occur. And a lot of it from these big software companies who believe every dollar of software should go to them saying hey we can actually profit from this within our own vertical stacks. So what do you make of all the M. And A. That's going on in particular? There was one recently where private equity firm is mashing together a long time R. P. A vendor with a long time integration firm. So it looks like you guys, you know on the right >>side of history in this regard. Your thoughts. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean if you think about automation right you've got to obviously help people do their jobs better. But if you're going to automate a process and a department you needed connect the applications that they use that those people use otherwise you can't accomplish it. And where ap is fit in as is automation and ui automation has become more and more mission critical and it's become bigger and bigger part of enterprise I. T. Wants to get involved. And so enterprise gets involved and what's their stack. It's api based their technology stack is how you connect back is through api so more and more companies are seeing what you I path saw is that if you're gonna automate every process and every department for every person you need to connect to every application that they're using and that's why this is now becoming right. Three companies now just recently have done these types of acquisitions of bringing an integration platform in and combining them together are trying to combine them together. >>All mps are not created equally as we know. Some are sort of half baked lot of them. Many of them don't have decent documentation so there's sort of a spectrum there. How do you, how do you think about prioritizing? How do you think about the landscape? Do you just kind of ignore the stuff that's not well documented and eventually that will take care of itself. How should we think about there have always >>been layers of integration right. Especially working with the ICTy organizations. So you've got our native integrations would make it easy to drag and drop activities and then you've got the A. P. I. Is that we can consume with various activities. That area has really grown through the acquisition of cloud elements and then you've got that third layer where when all else fails, you go on to the user interface and interact with the application like a human does and what you see is that our our interaction with college elements really enables a great enhancement of that lower base level um which is mildly interesting to the lines of business very important. I Yeah, for sure. >>So the reason I asked that question is I was talking to one of your customers this big ASAP customers said I love you ipad. The problem I have is I got so many custom mods and so it's just you know orally documented and I can't I wanna put automation in there but I can't. So to those parts of the tech stack become like the main frame of you know what I mean? And just sort of they live there and they just keep doing their thing but there's so much innovation that pops up around it. How do you how do you see that? >>Well that's part of the agility that comes with the platform like you ipads is that you can interact with the very clean uh swagger documented restful aPI s and you can interact with SCP on their proprietary ages old A. P. I. S. Um Those are things that we've traditionally done decently well, but again through this acquisition we could do that on a grander scale um with bidirectional triggering and all the goodness that you >>solve that problem today that your customer and this is a couple of years ago, you can solve that problem with cloud elements. Is that right? >>Yeah, absolutely. The the ability to integrate too these enterprise platforms like ASAP you need multiple tools to do the job. Right. So ui automation is great but if you've customized ui significantly or other things like that then the A. P. I can be a great structure for it and other cases where um that api provides a resiliency in a in a scale to it that um opens up new processes as well to those corporate systems. Right? So the balance of being able to bring these two worlds together is where you can unlock more because you got >>east west automation >>that's very good overhead and now >>you're going north south with cloud elements is deeper. Right, >>bottom line from the VP of its point of view, the more that can be done from a machine to machine communication the better. So sure. >>What's the opportunity for the existing cloud elements customers to take advantage of here? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um We've continued to support, brought our customers over with us. Uh Part of our customer base has actually been a significant number of software customers. Uh cos S. A. P. S. One of them doc you sign gain site, you know, so household names in the world of software as well as large financial services institutions like US Bank and Capital One and american Express, all of them had that common need where um they wanted to have an api centric approach to being able to connect to customers and partners and leverage our platform to do that. So we will continue to support that extend that. But we see opportunities where again we couldn't automate everything for our customers just threw a PS And uh you know for example one of our major financial services institutions were working with wants to take um and provide a robot for their uh customers and commercial payments to be able to automatically kick off in A. P. I. And so that seamless integration where we can combine that automation with robots leveraging and kicking off a P. I. S automatically takes us further into automating those processes for those >>customers. So you guys six months right. Uh talk about how that integration api integration company better gone smoothly. But what was that like you guys are getting the knack of M and a talk about that, what you learn maybe what you would do differently to even accelerate further, How'd it go? Uh >>That's the best answer from you having been on the >>acquisition side. Um Well we how well it went is six months later, which I think is really unheard of in the technology world, we're introducing our combined offering you I Path integration service that essentially takes what cloud elements built embeds it right into automation. Cloud studio in the Ui Path products. We and uh it's been a global effort. Right? So we had the Ui Path team was based in Hyderabad Denver and Dallas and then we've got um Ui Path engineers working with that cloud elements team that are in Bucharest Bellevue and bangalore and with the miracles of zoom and uh that type of thing, never meeting anyone in person, we were able to integrate the product together and launch it here today >>six months is a fast turnaround time frame was how much of that was accelerated by the, by the fact of the global situation that we're in. >>Yeah, well you know in some respects that that helped right? Because we um um we didn't have to waste time traveling and we could hop on zoom calls instantly. We spent a lot of time even over zoom making sure there was a cultural fit. You I path has a, you know, not only the humble, bold and type of values but it's a very collaborative environment, very open and collaborative environment as Brent can attest to. And that collaboration, I think in that spirit of collaboration really helped us feel welcome and move quickly to pull this together. And also >>the necessity is the mother of innovation right. Uh you ipad traditionally being popular in the CFOs organization were becoming the C I O s best friend and the timing was right to introduce this kind of capability to combine with what we traditionally do well and really move into their picking up like I said the customer where they are and leading them into that fully end to end automation capability and this was integral. So it wasn't time to kick the tires but to get moving >>and my right, there's a governance play here as well because I. T. Is kind of generally responsible for governance if you make it easier for them to whatever governance systems they're using >>governance privacy >>security that now you can just connect. They don't have to rip and replace. Is there an angle there? >>Sure, yeah. So nothing is more important than I. T. Than than control and governments and change management and half of the uh conversations we're having out there on the floor are around that right um uh ensuring that all of the good governance is in place um and we have a lot of the uh integrations and frameworks necessary to help that through your devops pipeline and doing proper ci cd and test automation um and you know introducing that integration layer in addition to what we already have just helps all of that to uh move more smoothly and bring more value to our customers. >>Mark talk to me about some of the feedback from customers that you mentioned, doc Watson. S A P probably I imagine joint customers with you. I path now there you're working together, what's the what's in it for them? >>Yeah, no the feedback has been tremendous. Right, so um api automation is not new to you. I path but customers have been asking for more capability. So one of them is in that governance area that we were just talking about, right, the ability to create connections centrally enable them disable them. Right? You got mission critical corporate applications. You want to be able to make sure that those applications are being controlled and monitored. Right? So that was one aspect. And by bringing this as a cloud based service, we can accomplish that. Um the other area is that this eventing capability, the ability to kick off workflows and processes based on changes to corporate applications, a new employees added in workday. I want to kick off a process to onboard that new employee and that triggered eventing service has been really well received and then um yeah, so that I'd say with the ability to also create new connections more simply was the third big factor. Uh we created a standardized authentication service. So no matter where you are in the UI Path product line, you get a consistent way to create a new connection, whether it's a personal connection by a business user too, you know, google docs or Microsoft office or your C O E R I T. Creating a connection to uh an important corporate system. >>How about the partner? I know you guys had partner day here leading into forward for they must be stoked about this gives you a lever to even add new partners. What was those >>conversations like? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. The partners are excited about those same features but um they're also excited about something in our roadmap which we expect to be previewing early next year and that's a connector builder. So the ability for partners to uh more quickly than ever create their own connectors. That'll work just like first party connectors that we ui Path build and add them into catalogs, share them in the market place. So there's new revenue opportunities, new opportunities for partners to create reusable assets that they can leverage and yeah so um lots of things, lots of work to continue to do, right? It's only been six months and uh but that's that's gonna be a big initiative going forward. >>So integration service as you mentioned, announced at this conference, we know that that's the first step obviously accomplished as we also talked about very quickly in a six month time period. But what does the future hold for api automation and integration service? >>So um one of the key areas just continue to expose the integration service um more broadly in the Ui Path product portfolio. Now that we have this service, more Ui Path products will be able to leverage it. Right? We're starting off with studio and orchestrator but that we can all use and share that common common capability. Um The other is to make access to complex business systems easier. So you think about it right. A uh to get a purchase order from net suite might take five or six api calls to do. Well, a citizen developer doesn't know what those five or six things you have to do. So we'll be creating these business activities or just get me open purchase orders that will work seamlessly in the studio product. And behind the scenes. Well, chain together those 56 aPI calls to make that a simple process. Right? So taking the integration service and making it even more powerful tool for that citizen developer than nontechnical user as well. So that's >>development work you're going to do. >>That's what we're gonna do as well as enable partners to do as well. So it's a key part of our road map over time. Because >>yeah I mean the partner pieces key because when net suite changes how it you're creating that abstraction layer. So but that's value add for the partners. >>Absolutely. And they have that domain expertise, right. They can create assets, leveraging the UI path automation capabilities but also bring their knowledge about A. S. A. P. Or workday and those oracle ebs and those core business systems and then combine that together into assets that enhance integration service that they build and I can I can share with their customers and share with our market >>because the work workday developer is going to know about that well ahead of time. No, >>it's coming and they know better than we do. Right. That's their business. That's what they know really well. >>Nice nice value at opportunity, peter >>One of the things that you iPad has been known for is its being very and I've said this on the program the last two days, that's being a good use case for land and expand. You guys have 70% of revenue that comes from existing customers. Talk to me about the cloud elements acquisition as a facilitator of because you kind of mentioned, you know, we're used to be really in bed with the cfos now we're going to see us and we've heard from a number of your customers where they started in finance and it's now Enterprise White, how is this going to help facilitate that? Even more? >>It really helps, you know, touching on what Mark just mentioned about the citizen developer, right, just as one of many examples, the empowerment of end users to automate things for themselves um is critical to that land and expand um successes that we've been seeing and where from an I. T standpoint, the frustration with the citizen developer is, you know, maybe what they're building isn't so top notch right? It works for themselves. What we can't replicate that, but put making it easy to make api integration part of what they do in studio X is so key to enhancing also the reusability of what's coming out of there. So that c uh C O E S can replicate that across teams are globally within their organization and that's part of land and expand because you may find something that's valuable in one line of business replicates easily into another line of business if the tool set is in place >>pretty powerful model lisa >>it is guys. Thanks so much for joining us today, talking about the club elements acquisition, what you're uh, doing with integration service, What's to come the opportunities in it for both sides and your partners? We appreciate your time. >>Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I >>appreciate it. Thank you for >>David Want I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cube live in las Vegas at the bellagio Ui Path forward for stick around. We'll be right back. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm mm.

>> From "The Cube studios" in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This, is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube Virtual conversation. I'm Lisa Martin and I'm excited to be talking to one of our cube alumni again, very socially distant, Derek Manky joins me the chief security insights and global for alliances, Fortinet's FortiGuard labs, Derek it's great to see you, even though virtually >> Yep, better safe better safe these days, right? But yeah, it's great to see you again and um I'm really looking forward to a great conversation, as always. >> Yeah! So Wow Has a lot changed since I last saw you? I-I think that's an epic understatement.. But each year we talk with you about the upcoming What's coming up in the threat landscape, what you guys are seeing Some of the attack trends. What are some of the things that you've seen in this very eventful year since we last spoke? >> Yeah.. a lot of a lot of things.. um.. Obviously.. uh.. with the pandemic there has been this big shift in landscape, right? So particularly uh Q3 Q4. So the last half of the year uh now we have a lot of things that were traditionally in corporate safeguards um you know, actual workstations, laptops that were sitting within networks and perimeters of-of organizations, that have obviously moved to work from home. And So, with that, comes a lot of new a-attack opportunities Um We track as, you know, threat until at 40 minutes, so 40 guard labs on a daily basis. And.. uh.. we are clearly seeing that and we're seeing a huge rise in things like um IOT targets, being the number one attacks, so consumer grade routers, um IOT devices, like printers and network attached storage. Those are um some of the most, favorite attack vehicles that cyber criminals are using to get into the-those devices. Of course, once they get in those devices, they can then move, laterally to compromise the..uh corporate laptop as an example. So those are-are very concerning The other thing has been that email that traditionally has been our number one um Another favorite attack platform always has! It's not going away but for the first time this year in.. um in about September, the second half, we saw a web based attacks taking priority for attackers and that's because of this new working environment. A lot of people I'm serving the websites from Again, these devices that were, not, were previously within Um you know, organizations email security is centralized a lot of the times but the web security always isn't. So that's another another shift that we've seen. We're now in the full-blown midst of the online shopping season um action and shopping season is almost every day now (laughter) since this summer >> Yep.. Yep.. >> And we've clearly seen that And we- Just from September up to October we saw over a trillion, not a billion, but a trillion new flows to shopping websites uh In just one month Um So that can- than number continues to rise and continues to rising quickly. >> Yeah. So the- the expanding threat landscape I've talked to a number of Companies the last few months that we're in this situation where it's suddenly It was a maybe 100% onsite workforce now going to work from home taking uh either desktops from uh their offices or using personal devices and that was a huge challenge that we were talking about with respect to endpoint and laptop security But interesting that you- you're seeing now this web security, I know phishing emails are getting more personal but the fact that um That website attacks are going up What are some of the things that you think, especially yo-you bring up a point we are we are now and maybe even s- more supercharged e-commerce season. How can businesses prepare a-and become proactive to defend against some of these things that, since now the threat surface is even bigger? >> Yeah. Multi-pronged approach. You know, Lisa, like we always say that, first of all, it's just like we have physical distancing, cyber distancing, just like we're doing now on this call. But same thing for reuse. I think there's always a false sense of security, right? When you're just in the home office, doing some browsing to a site, you really have to understand that these sites just by touching, literally touching it by going to the URL and clicking on that link you can get infected that easily. We're seeing that, there's a lot of these attacks being driven So, education, there's a lot of free programs. We have one on Fortinet information security awareness training. That is something that we continually need to hone the skills of end users first of all, so that's an easy win I would say, to my eyes in terms of organizations, but then this multi-pronged approach, right? So things like having EDR endpoint detection response, and being able to manage those end users while they're on on their devices at home Being able to have security and making sure those are up to date in terms of patches. So centralized management is important, two factor authentication, or multi-factor authentication Also equally as important. Doing things like network segmentation. For end users and the devices too. So there's a lot of these Things that you look at the risk that's associated The risk is always way higher than the investment upfront in terms of hours, in terms of security platforms. So the good thing is there's a lot of Solutions out there and it doesn't have to be complicated. >> That's good because we have enough complication everywhere else. But you bring up a point, you know, about humans, about education. We're kind of always that weakest link, but so many of us, now that are home, have distractions going on all around. So you might be going, "I've got to do some bill pay and go onto your bank" without thinking that that's that's now a threat landscape. What are some of the things that you're seeing that you think we're going to face in 2021, which is just around the corner? >> Yeah so So we're just talking about those IOT devices They're the main culprit right now. They can continue to be for a while We have this new class of threat emerging technology, which is edge computing. So people always talked about the perimeter of the perimeter being dead in other words, not just building up a wall on the outside, but understanding what's inside, right? That's been the case of IOT, but now edge computing is the emerging technology The main difference You know, we say, is that the edge devices are virtual assistant is the best example I could give, right? That, that users will be aware of in-home networks. Because these devices, traditionally, have more processing power, they handle more data, they have more access and privilege to devices like things like security systems, lights, as an example Beyond home networks, these edge devices are also As an example, being put into military and defense into critical infrastructure, field units for oil and gas and electricity as an example. So this is the new emerging threat, more processing power, more access and privilege, smarter decisions that are being made on those devices Those devices, are going to be targets for cyber criminals. And that's something, I think next year, we're going to see a lot of because it's a Bigger reward to the cyber criminal if they can get into it. And So targeting the edge is going to be a big thing. I think there's going to be a new class of threats. I'm calling these, I haven't heard this coined in the industry yet, but I'm calling these or "EAT"s or "Edge Access Trojans" because that's what it is, they compromise these devices. They can then control and get access to the data. If you think of a virtual assistant, and somebody that can actually compromise that device, think about that data. Voice data that's flowing through those devices that they can then use as a cleverly engineered, you know, attack a social engineering attack to phish a user as an example. >> Wow! I never thought about it from that perspective before Do you think, with all the talk about 5G, and what's coming with 5G, is that going to be an accelerator of some of these trends? Of some of these "EAT"s that you talk about? >> Yeah, definitely. Yeah So 5G is just a conduit. It's an accelerator. Absolutely um Catalyst called, if you will, It's here. Um, it's been deployed, not worldwide, but in many regions, it's going to continue to be 5G is all about, um, speed.. Um right? And so if you think about how swiftly these attacks are moving, you be abl- you need to be able to keep up with that from a defense standpoint, um Threats move without borders, they move without Uh, uh, Unfortunately, without restriction a lot of the time, right? Cyber crime has no borders. Um, the-they don't have rules, or if they have, they don't care about rules (laughter) So break those rules. So they are able to move quickly, right? And that's th- the problem with 5G, of course, is that these devices now can communicate quicker, they can launch even larger scale things like "DDOS", "Distributed Denial Of Service attacks". And That is, is a very big threat. And it also allows the other thing about 5G, Lisa, is that it allows.. um.. Peer to peer connectivity too. Right? So it's like Bluetooth, Um, Bluetooth's um enhanced in a sense, because now you have devices that interact with each other as well, by interacting with each other Um that also uh, you know, what are they talking about? What data are they passing? That's a whole new security inspection point that we need to And that's what I mean about this.. Um that's just It reconfirms that the.. Perimeters that. >> Right. Something we've been talking about, as you said for a while, but That's some pretty hard hitting evidence that it is, indeed, a thing of the past Something that we've talked to you about - with you in the past is Swarm attacks. Ho- What's, What's going on there? How are they progressing? >> Yeah, so this is a real threat, but there's good news, bad news. The Good news is this is a long progressing threat, which means we have more time to prepare. Bad news is we have seen developments in terms of weaponizing this, It's like anything.. Swarm is a tool. It can be as good.. DARPA, as an example, has invested a lot into this from military research, it's all around us now in terms of good applications things like for redundancy, right? Robotics, as an example, there's a lot of good things that come from Swarm technology, but.. There's use for If it's weaponized, It can have some very scary prospects. And that's what we're starting to see. There's a new botnet that was created this year. It is called the "HTH" this is written in Golang. So it's a language that basically allows it to infect any number of devices. It's not just your PC Right? It's the same, it's the same virus, but it can morph into all these different platforms, devices, whether it's a, an IOT device, an edge device But the main, characteristic of this is that it's able to actually have communication. They built a communication protocol into it. So the devices can pass files between each other, talk to each other They don't have a machine learning models yet, so in other words, they're not quote-in-quote "smart" yet, but that's coming. Once that intelligence starts getting baked in, then we have the weaponized Swarm technology And what this means, is that you know, when you have those devices that are making decisions on their own, talking to each other >> A: they're harder to kill. You take one down, another one takes its place. >> B: um They are able to move very swiftly, especially when that piggybacking leveraging on things like 5G. >> So . the I'm just blown away at all these things that you're talking about They are so So talk about how companies, and even individuals, can defend against this and become proactive. As we know one of the things we know about 2020 is all the uncertainty, we're going to continue to see uncertainty, but we also know that we- there's expectation.. globally, that a good amount of people are going to be working from home and connecting to corporate networks for a very long time. So, how can companies and people become proactive against these threats? >> Yes People process procedures and technology. So, we talked, as I really looked at this as a stacked approach, first of all, threats, as it is said, they're becoming quicker, the attack surface is larger, you need threat intelligence visibility This comes down to security platforms from a technology piece. So a security driven networking, AI driven security operations Centers These are new. But it's, it's becoming, as you can imagine, when we talked about critical, to fill that gap, to be able to move as quickly as the attackers you need to be able to use intelligent technology on your end. So people are just too slow. But we can still use people from the process, you know, making sure You know, Trying to understand what the risk is. So looking at threat intelligence reports, we put out weekly threat intelligence briefs as an example of as Fortiguard Labs, to be able to understand what the threats are, how to respond to those, how to prioritize them and then put the proper security measures in place. So, there are absolutely relevant technologies that exist today, And in fact now I think is the time to really get those in deployment before this becomes worse, as we're talking about. And then as I said earlier, there's also free things that can be just part of our daily lives, right? So we don't have this false sense of security. So understanding that that threat is real following up on the threat and being on doing education There's phishing services Again, phishing can be a good tool when it's used in a non-malicious way, to test people's skills sets as an example. So all of that combined is But the biggest thing is definitely relying on things like machine learning, artificial intelligence, to be able to work at speed with these threats. >> Right. So, you also have global threat alliances under your portfolio. Talk to me about how 40 net is working with global Alliance partners to fight this growing attack surface. >> Yeah. So this is the ecosystem. Every, every organization, whether it's private or public sector, has a different role to play in essence, right? So you look at things in the public sector, you have law enforcement, they're focused on attribution, so when we look at cyber crime, and if we find It's the hardest thing to do, but if we find out who these cyber criminals are, we can bring them to justice. Right? Our whole goal is to make it more expensive for the cyber criminals to operate, So by doing this, if we work with law enforcement and it leads to a successful arrest and prosecution, because we've done it in the past, that takes them off line to hit somewhere it hurts Law enforcement will typically work with intelligence leads to freeze assets, as an example from maybe ransom attacks that are happening. So that's one aspect, but then you have other things like working with national computer emergency response. So disrupting cyber crime, we work with national series. If we know that, you know, the bad guys are hosting stolen data or communication infrastructure in public, you know, servers, we can work with them to actually disrupt that, to take those servers offline. Then you have the private space. So this, you know Fortinet we're a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance. I'm on the steering committee there. And this is working with even competitors around in our space where we can share quickly up-to-date intelligence on, on attackers. We remain competitive on the technology itself, but, you know, we're working together to actually share as much as we know about the bad guys. And recently we're also a founding member of the "Center for Cyber Security", "C for C" with World Economic Forum. And This is another crucial effort that is basically trying to bridge all of that. To mend all of that together, right? Law enforcement, prosecutors, security vendors, intelligence organizations, all under one roof because we really do need that. It's an entire ecosystem to make this an effective fight. So it's, it's interesting because a lot of people, I don't think see what's happening behind the scenes a lot of the times, but there is a tremendous effort globally that's happening between all the players. So that's really good news. And the industry piece is something close to my heart. I've been involved in a lot of time and we continue to support. >> That's exciting. And that's something that is, you know, unfortunately, so very, very needed and will continue to be as emerging technologies evolve and we get to use them for good things. And to your point, that bad actors also get to take advantage of that for nefarious things as well. Derek it's always great to have you on the program, any particular things on the 40 net website that you would point viewers to to learn more about like the 20, 20 front landscape? >> Sure. You can always check out our blogs, So it's on blogged@fortynet.com, under "Threat Research", As I said on 40 guard.com, we also have our playbooks on there. We have podcasts, we have our updated threat intelligence briefs too. So those are always great to check out and just be rest assured that, you know, everything I've been talking about, we're doing a lot of that heavy lift on the backend. So by having working with managing security service providers and having all this intelligence baked in, organizations don't have to go and have a huge OPEX by you know, hiring, you know, trying to create a massive security center on their own. I mean, it's about this technology working together and that's that's what we're here for, its we can ask what do you guard lapse? >> Awesome Derek, thank you so much for joining me today in this Cube Conversation. Lots of exciting stuff going on at 40 net and 40 guard labs as always, which we expect, it's been great to have you. Thank you. >> It's a pleasure. Thanks Lisa. >> For Derek Manky. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Virtual Cube.

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello everyone welcome to the space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together i'm john furrier your host with thecube here in california i want to welcome our featured guest lieutenant general john f thompson with the united states space force approach to cyber security that's the topic of this session and of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in los angeles air force base also heading up space force general thank you for coming on really appreciate you kicking this off welcome to the symposium hey so uh thank you very much john for that very kind introduction also uh very much thank you to cal poly uh for this opportunity to speak to this audience today also a special shout out to one of the organizers uh dustin brun for all of his work uh helping uh get us uh to this point uh ladies and gentlemen as uh as uh john mentioned uh i'm jt thompson uh i lead the 6 000 men and women of the united states space forces space and missile system center which is headquartered here at los angeles air force base in el segundo if you're not quite sure where that's at it's about a mile and a half from lax this is our main operating location but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country with about 500 people at kirtland air force base in albuquerque new mexico uh and about another 500 people on the front range of the rockies uh between colorado springs and uh and denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide uh we're responsible for uh acquiring developing and sustaining the united states space force's critical space assets that includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites and we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the u.s space force and a number of our critical mission partners across the uh department of defense and the intelligence community um just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustained the 31 satellite gps constellation that satellite constellation while originally intended to help with global navigation those gps signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy uh over the past three decades i mean gps is everywhere i think everybody realizes that agriculture banking the stock market the airline industry uh separate and distinct navigation systems it's really pervasive across both the capabilities for our department of defense and capabilities for our economy and and individuals billions of individuals across our country and the planet some of the other work we do for instance in the communications sector uh secure communications satellites that we design and build that link america's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real-time support and comms for our deployed forces and those of our allies we also acquire uh infrared missile warning satellites uh that monitor the planet for missile launches and provide advanced warning uh to the u.s homeland and to our allies uh in case some of those missile launches are uh nefarious um on a note that's probably a lot closer to home maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of california in 2018 smc jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy uh to partner with the u.s forest service during the two of the largest wildfires in the state's history the camp and woolsey fires in northern california as those fires spread out of control we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet and we collaborated with the us forest service so that firefighters on the ground uh could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading thereby saving lives and and property by identifying hot spots and flare-ups for firefighters that data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the u.s forest service and authorities here in california was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters it was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread we've continued uh that involvement in recent years using multiple systems to support firefighters across the western u.s this fall as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue working together with the u.s forest service and with other partners uh we like to make uh we like to think that we made a difference here but there's still a lot more work to go and i think that we should always be asking ourselves uh what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to uh stakeholders so that they can use it for for purposes of good if you will how else can we protect our nation how else can we protect our friends and allies um i think a major component of the of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly um just over the past few years uh john and i were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have uh space programs 80 nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet um if you just look at one mission area that uh the department of defense is interested in and that's small launch there are currently over a hundred different small launch companies uh within the u.s industrial base vying for commercial dod and civil uh payload capabilities uh mostly to low earth orbit it's it's just truly a remarkable time if you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning um where we're revolutionary revolutionizing really uh the ways that we generate process and use data i mean it's really remarkable in 2016 so if you think about this four years ago uh nasa estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day and that was four years ago um uh obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience of this congress or in this conference uh we need to work with big thinkers like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data we need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge edge theories of data mining cyber behaviorism and internet of things 2.0 it's just truly a remarkable time uh to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the states of the space business are truly truly daunting and important to uh to all of us um integrating cyber security into our space systems both commercial and government is a mandate um it's no longer just a nice to have as the us space force and department of the air force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years space is becoming congested and contested and that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security uh in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on uh cyber security day in and day out the value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer from the ground control segments associated with it and this value is not just military it's also economic and it's not just american it's also a value for the entire world particularly particularly our allies as we all depend upon space and space systems your neighbors and friends here in california that are employed at the space and missile system center uh work with network defenders we work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers um our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global commons of space free and open for exploration and for commerce um as john and i were talking earlier before we came online there's an aspect of cyber security for space systems especially for some of our legacy systems that's more how do we bolt this on because we fielded those space systems a number of years ago and the the challenges of cyber security in the space domain have grown so we have a part that we have to worry about bolting it on but then we have to worry about building it in as we as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that that realizes that the cyber threat or the cyber security landscape will evolve over time it's not just going to be stagnant there will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we always have to look at look uh as secretary barrett who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning the american way of life really depends on space and as part of the united states space force we work with defense leaders our congress joint and international military teammates and industry to ensure american leadership in space i really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today john and thanks so much to cal poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event i really look forward to this for uh several months and so with that i look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here general thank you very much for the awesome uh introductory statement uh for the folks watching on the stream brigadier general carthan is going to be in the chat answering any questions feel free to chat away he's the vice commander of space and missile systems center he'll be available um a couple comments from your keynote before i get to my questions because it just jumped in my head you mentioned the benefits of say space but the fires in california we're living that here that's really real time that's a benefit you also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space and i only imagine moore's law smaller faster cheaper applies to rockets too so i'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned so you know is it going to be more rules around that i mean this is an interesting question because it's exciting space force but for all the good there is potentially bad out there yeah so i i john i think the uh i think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space what kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps deorbit themselves what kind of basic protections does do all satellites should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space i think those are all fantastic questions and i know that u.s and many uh allied policy makers are looking very very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we uh you know how how we field and field is the military term but you know how we uh populate uh using civil or uh commercial terms uh that space layer at different altitudes uh low earth orbit mid mid-earth orbit geosynchronous earth orbit different kinds of orbits uh what the kind of mission areas we accomplish from space that's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as uh as the place gets a little bit not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out well i'm super excited for space force i know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging changing great space the focus here at this conference is space and cyber security intersection i'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that space force is taking to cyber security and how it impacts our national goals here in the united states yeah yeah so that's a that's a great question john let me let me talk about in two uh two basic ways but number one is and and i know um some people in the audience this might make them a little bit uncomfortable but i have to talk about the threat right um and then relative to that threat i really have to talk about the importance of uh of cyber and specifically cyber security as it relates to that threat um the threats that we face um really represent a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber uh we've seen a lot of action in recent months uh from certain countries notably china and russia uh that have threatened what i referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space for example uh it through many unclassified sources and media sources everybody should understand that um uh the russians have been testing on orbit uh anti-satellite capabilities it's been very clear if you were following just the week before last the department of defense released its uh 2020 military and security developments involving the people's republic of china um uh and uh it was very clear that china is developing asats electronic jammers directed energy weapons and most relevant to today's discussion offensive cyber uh capabilities there are kinetic threats uh that are very very easy to see but a cyber attack against a critical uh command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of gps and important to note that that gps system also impacts many civilians who are dependent upon those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to a system to mislead operators so that they send emergency services personnel to the to the wrong address right attacks on spacecraft on orbit whether directly via a network of intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the systems production uh while we're building the satellite can [ __ ] or corrupt the data denial of service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control i mean if gps went down i you know i hesitate to say it this way because we might elicit some screams from the audience but if gps went down a starbucks wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you and domino's certainly certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less right so with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there from a military operations perspective it's dead serious um uh we have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like lance ransomware and malware and those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems however what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled if you will to use against our national security space systems uh day in and day out um as i said during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity if commanders in the field uh firefighters in california or baristas in in starbucks can't trust the data they see they're receiving then that really harms their decision-making capabilities one of the big trends we've recently seen is the mood move towards proliferated leo uh uh constellations obviously uh spacex's uh starlink uh on the commercial side and on the military side the work that darpa and my organization smc are doing on blackjack and casino as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionize how we plan and field warfighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems but they're also heavily reliant on cyber security uh we've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage uh loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from uh you know satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning on board spacecraft or at the edge our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector they're basically flying boxes full of software right and we need to ensure the data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms govern governing the right actions and that those uh that those systems are impervious to the extent possible uh to nefarious uh modifications so in summation a cyber security is vital element of everything in our national security space goals and i would argue for our national uh goals uh writ large including uh economic and information uh uh dimensions uh the space force leadership at all levels uh from uh some of the brand new second lieutenants that general raymond uh swore into the space force this morning uh ceremonially from the uh air force association's air space and cyberspace conference uh to the various highest levels general raymond uh general d t thompson myself and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise we've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems because it they absolutely depend on it you know you mentioned uh hardware software threats opportunities challenges i want to ask you because you you got me thinking of the minute there around infrastructure i mean we've heard critical infrastructure you know grids here on on earth you're talking about critical infrastructure a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is an extension of what we have so i'd love to get your thoughts about space force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors because you know the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyber space oh yeah threat vectors they're always increasing the surface area well if the surface area is from space it's an unlimited surface area so you got different vectors so you got new critical infrastructure developing real time really fast and you got an expanded threat vector landscape putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues how would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things well so i tell you um i just like um uh just like uh i'm sure people in the security side or the cyber security side of the business in the banking industry feel they feel like it's uh all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system to the financial sector on the department of defense side we've got to have sort of the same mindset um that threat vector from to and through space against critical space systems ground segments the launch enterprise or transportation uh to orbit and the various different uh domains within uh within space itself like i mentioned before uh leo mio and geo-based satellites with different orbits all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that i mentioned earlier some that i didn't mention like weather tactical or wide band communications uh various new features of space control all of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security uh threat perspective and it's a it's a daunting challenge right now right yeah it's awesome and one of the things we've been following on the hardware side here in the on the ground is the supply chain we've seen you know malware being you know really put into really obscure hardware who manufactures it as being outsourced obviously government has restrictions but with the private sector uh you mentioned china and and the us kind of working together across these these peaceful areas but you got to look at the supply chain how does the supply chain the security aspect impact the mission of the u.s space force yeah yeah so so um how about another um just in terms of an example another kind of california-based historical example right um the very first u.s satellite uh explorer one was built by uh the jet propulsion uh laboratory folks uh not far from here in el segundo up in uh up in pasadena um that satellite when it was first built in the late 50s uh weighed a little bit over 30 pounds and i'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by u.s companies fast forward to today the global supply chain is so tightly coupled and frankly many industries are so specialized almost specialized regionally around the planet we focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the the heritage if you will of some of the parts that are used the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized right the space industry especially uh national security space sector um uh is relatively small compared to other commercial industries and we're moving to towards using more and more parts uh from non-us companies uh cyber security and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily um understand 100 percent like an explorer one uh the the lineage of that particular part the environmental difficulties in space are well known the radiation environment the temperature extremes the vacuum those require specialized component and the us military is not the only uh customer in that space in fact we're definitely not the dominant customer uh in space anymore all those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains from a quality perspective a security perspective and availability um there's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from um many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of uh you know compromised patches if you will and our adversaries are aware of these techniques as i mentioned earlier with other forms of attack considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries so we have to uh take that threat seriously um between the government and industry sectors here in the u.s we're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities last fall we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at space and missile system center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio and it sounds really kind of you know businessy geeky if you will you know hey we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cyber security as dynamically as we possibly could and so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts to require system developers to implement some more advanced uh protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment so that data handling and supply chain perspective uh protections um from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account uh cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now it's as important as the the mission performance of the system it's as important as cost it's as important as schedule because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost uh it can perform that missile warning or that communications mis mission perfectly but it's not cyber secure if it doesn't have cyber protections built into it or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber uh threats then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the k the the war fighter or the nation uh any good um supply chain risk management is a is a major challenge for us uh we're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners uh we're all facing it head on uh to try and build secure and trusted components uh that keep our confidence as leaders firefighters and baristas uh as the case may be uh but it is a challenge and we're trying to rise to that challenge you know this so exciting this new area because it really touches everything you know talk about geeking out on on the tech the hardware the systems but also you put your kind of mba hat on you go what's the roi of the extra development and how you how things get built because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like you're building cool stuff people love it's it's exciting but you still have to build and cyber security has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture so you're still building things which means you've got to acquire things you got to acquire parts you got to acquire build software and and sustain it how is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space yeah from initial development uh through planning for the acquisition design development fielding or production fielding and sustainment it impacts all aspects of of the life cycle john uh we simply especially from the concept of baking in cyber security uh we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure so we've moved way further uh towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cyber security from the very beginning of a system's development cyber security and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute as i mentioned earlier equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance we like to talk in uh in the space world about uh mission assurance and mission assurance has always you know sort of taken us as we as we technically geek out right mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space right can it work in a vacuum can it work in you know as it as it uh you know transfers through uh the van allen radiation belt or through the the um the southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly right will it work out in space and now from a resiliency perspective yeah it has to work in space it's got to be functional in space but it's also got to be resistant to these cyber security threats it's it's not just i think uh general dt thompson quoted this term it's not just widget assurance anymore it's mission assurance um uh how does that satellite uh operator that ground control segment operate while under attack so let me break your question a little bit uh just for purposes of discussion into into really two parts uh cyber uh for cyber security for systems that are new and cyber security uh for systems that are in sustainment or kind of old and legacy um obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threaten both and we really have to employ different strategies for for defense of of each one for new systems uh we're desperately trying to implement across the department of defense in particular in the space world a kind of a devsecops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems here at smc we have a program called enterprise ground services which is a tool kit basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems egs as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of of bad behavior malicious behavior if you will um uh it's rudimentary at this point but because we're using devsecops and that incremental development approach as we scale it it just becomes more and more capable you know every every product increment that we field here at uh at uh la air force base uh uh we have the united space space forces west coast software factory which we've dubbed kobayashi maru they're using those agile devops uh software development practices uh to deliver uh space awareness software uh to the combined space operations center uh affectionately called the csp that c-spock is just down the road uh from cal poly uh there in san luis obispo at vandenberg air force base they've securely linked the c-spock with other space operation centers around the planet our allies australia canada and the uk uh we're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations so lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development uh capabilities for our our space systems but as i mentioned earlier we've got large constellations on satellite of satellites on orbit right now some of them are well in excess of a decade or more old on orbit and so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old and so but we still have to worry about them because they're critical to our space capabilities um we've been working with an air force materiel command organization uh called crows which stands for the cyber resiliency office for uh weapon systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to to live through this increasingly cyber security uh concerned era that we currently live in our industry partners have been critical to to both of those different avenues both new systems and legacy systems we're working closely with them to defend and upgrade uh national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with uh with new national assets coming online the vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threaten the way we've done business in the past both militarily and in the case of gps economically the impacts of that cyber security risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes but i've got to tell you it that as the threat vectors change as the vulnerabilities change we've got to be nimble enough agile enough to be able to bounce back and forth we can't just say uh many people in the audience are probably familiar with the rmf or the risk management framework approach to um to reviewing uh the cyber security of a system we can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an rmf on a system and then hey high five we're all good uh it's a journey not a destination that's cyber security and it's a constant battle rhythm throughout a weapon systems life cycle not just a single event i want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question but before i go there you mentioned the agile and i see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles you've got to be faster and we saw this in the computer industry mainframes mini computers and then when you started getting beyond me when the internet hit and pcs came out you saw the big enterprises the banks and and government start to work with startups it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that you know there's no way if you're a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise now that used to be for public sector and certainly uh for you guys so as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved i'm sure would love to love to have a contract with space force there's an roi calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view edit software you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you uh whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile but they might not be that big company we are john that's a fantastic question we are desperately trying to reach out to to those new space advocates to those startups to those um what we sometimes refer to within the department of defense those non-traditional uh defense contractors a couple of things just for uh thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight um uh three years ago we created here at uh space and missile system center uh the space enterprise consortium uh to provide a platform uh a contractual vehicle really to enable us to rapidly prototype uh development of space systems and to collaborate uh between the u.s space force uh traditional defense contractors non-traditional vendors like startups and even some academic institutions uh spec as we call it space enterprise consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts uh awarded quickly many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements and that's what spec is based on and so far in just three years spec has awarded 75 different uh prototyping contracts worth over 800 million dollars with a 36 reduction in time to award and because it's a consortium based competition for um for these kinds of prototyping efforts the barrier to entry for small and non-traditional for startups even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototypings is really lowered right um uh these types of partnerships uh that we've been working through on spec uh have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security uh for their systems both their developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build we want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together and support um uh kind of mutually beneficial uh relationships between all um recently uh at the annual air force association uh conference that i mentioned earlier i moderated a panel with several space industry leaders uh all from big traditional defense contractors by the way and they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships uh between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrants uh and that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those uh larger contractors uh that we rely on day in and day out advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that i think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations as i mentioned earlier the spec has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values and it's just going to get better right there's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium 80 of them are non-traditional kinds of vendors and we just love working with them another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators uh if you will and innovators that include uh cyber security experts is our space pitch day events right so we held our first event last november in san francisco uh where we awarded over a two-day period about 46 million dollars to 30 different companies um that had potentially game-changing ideas these were phase two small business innovative research efforts uh that we awarded with cash on the spot uh we're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. uh we're planning on doing it right here in los angeles uh covent 19 environment permitting um and we think that these are you know fantastic uh uh venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups startups and small businesses who are interested in uh really truly partnering with the us air force it's a as i said before it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business uh and working with the innovation economy uh is something that the department of defense uh really needs to do in that um the innovation that we used to think was ours you know that 80 percent of the industrial-based innovation that came from the department of defense uh the the script has been flipped there and so now more than 70 percent uh particularly in space innovation uh comes from the commercial sector not from uh not from the defense business itself and so um that's a tsunami of uh investment and a tsunami of uh capability and i need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it you know what i mean yeah i mean it's one of those things where the flip the script has been flipped but it's exciting because it's impacting everything are you talking about systems architecture you're talking about software you're talking about a business model you talk about devsecops from a technical perspective but now you have a business model innovation all the theaters of uh are exploding in innovation technical business personnel this brings up the workforce challenge you've got the cyber needs for the u.s space force there's probably a great roi model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts that's a entrepreneurial innovation you got the the business model theater you've got the personnel how does the industry adopt and change you guys are clearly driving this how does the industry adjust to you yeah so um i think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the u.s space force from a from an acquisition perspective and in this particular case from a from a cyber security perspective as i mentioned earlier it's the most exciting time to be in space programs uh really since the days of apollo um uh you know just to put it in terms that you know maybe have an impact with the audience uh from 1957 until today approximately 9 000 satellites uh have been launched from the various space faring countries around the planet uh less than two thousand of those nine thousand are still up on orbit and operational and yet in the new space regime um players like spacex have plans to launch you know 12 000 satellites for some of their constellations alone it really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities whether they're commercial civil or defense are going to require appropriate cyber security uh protections it's just a really exciting time uh to be working in stuff like this and so uh folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cyber security are just the kind of people that we want to work with because we need to make sure our systems are are secure and resilient we need folks that have technical and computing expertise engineering skills to be able to design cybersecure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks uh but we also as you alluded to we need people that have that business and um you know business acumen human networking background so that we can launch the startups and work with the non-traditional businesses uh help to bring them on board help to secure both their data and our data and uh and and make sure our processes and systems are are free as much as possible from uh uh from attack um for preparation for for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this uh trade space um you gotta be smart on digital networking uh you gotta understand basic internet protocols concepts uh programming languages uh database design uh learn what you can from penetration or vulnerability testing and and uh risk assessment i will tell you this and i don't think he will i know he will not mind me telling you this but you've got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago i'm at home one evening and i get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss the commander of air force space command uh general j raymond who is now currently the chief of space operations and he is on temporary duty flying overseas he lands where he's going and he first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes jt um while i was traveling um i noticed that there were e-books available on the commercial airliner i was traveling on and there was an e-book on something called scrumming and agile devsecops and i read it have you read it um and i said no sir but if you tell me what the title of the book is i will read it and so i got to go to my staff meeting um you know the very next week the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the stab meeting hey if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming then i'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our gs13s all of our government employees can get smart on uh the scrumming development process and interestingly as another side i had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays where he was trying to take some leave and i said sir what are you up to today are you are you you know making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever and the chief of space operations told me no i'm trying to teach myself python i'm at lesson two and it's not going so well but i'm i'm gonna figure this out and so that kind of thing if the chief of staff or the you know the the the chief of space operations can prioritize scrumming and python language and innovation in his daily schedule then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that and we'll just say lower levels of rank uh throughout our entire space force enterprise um look i i we don't need to need people that can code a satellite from scratch but we need to know we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cyber security requirements and that can turn those things into into meaningful actions obviously in the space domain things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important uh space is not an intuitive uh domain so under understanding how things survive uh on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions and you know i know there's probably a lot because of this conference i know there's a probably a whole lot of high-speed cyber security experts out in the audience and i need those people in the u.s space force the the country is counting on it but i wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy right i have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers and they don't have to be high-end cyber security experts but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections um into our space system so the skill set is is really really broad um our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into uh define designing uh and fielding offensive and destructive space cyber security weapons right they've repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit and the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that as i mentioned before peaceful uh global commons of space we really need all hands on deck if you're interested in helping in uniform if you're interested in helping uh not in uniform uh but as a government employee a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important uh or more cape more able to be developed for our space systems then we'd really love to uh to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems lieutenant general john thompson great insight thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too and motivation for the young next generation the united states space force approach of cyber security really amazing talk thank you for your time final parting question is as you look out and you had your magic wand what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish it's a super exciting time what do you hope for so um um first of all john thanks to you and and thanks to cal poly uh for the invitation and and thanks to everybody for uh for their interest in cyber security especially as it relates to space systems that's here at the conference um uh there's a quote and i'll read it here uh from uh bernard schriever who was the uh the founder if you will uh a legend in uh dod space the founder of the western development division which was a predecessor organization to space and missile systems center general shrever i think captures the essence of what how we see the next couple of years the world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why new ideas will not work and should not be tried but the people who produce progress are breed apart they have the imagination the courage and the persistence to find solutions and so i think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cyber security innovation are going to be a pony ride at the county fair then perhaps you should look for another line of work because i think the next few years in space and cyber security innovation are going to be more like a rodeo um and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes it is a an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem it's really an honor for me to um to be able to play some small role uh in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it uh while i'm trying to improve the chances of uh of the united states of america in a uh in a space war fighting uh uh environment um and so i thank all of you for uh participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you thank you sir thank you for your leadership and thank you for the for the time for this awesome event space and cyber security symposium 2020 i'm john furrier on behalf of cal poly thanks for watching [Music]

>> Thank you for coming to this talk. My name is Amir Safavi-Naeini I'm an Assistant Professor in Applied Physics at Stanford University. And today I'm going to talk about a platform that we've been developing here that allows for quantum and classical information processing using photons and phonons or mechanical motion. So first I'd like to start off, with a picture of the people who did the work. These are graduate students and postdocs in my group. In addition, I want to say that a lot of the work especially on polling of the Lithium niobate was done in collaboration with Martin Fejer's group and in particular Dr.Langrock and Jata Mishra and Marc Jankowski Now our goal is to realize a platform, for quantum coherent information processing, that enables functionality which currently does not exist in other platforms that are available. So in particular we want to have, a very low loss non-linearity that is strong and can be dispersion engineered, to be made broadband. We'd like to make circuits that are programmable and reconfigurable, and that necessitates having efficient modulation and switching. And we'd also really like to have a platform that can leverage some of the advances with superconducting circuits to enable sort of large scale programmable dynamics between many different oscillators on a chip. So, in the next few years what we're really hoping to demonstrate are few photon, optical nonlinear effects by pushing the strength of these non-linearities and reducing the amount of loss. And we also want to demonstrate these coupled, sort of qubit and many oscillators systems. Now the Material system, that we think will enable a lot of these advances is based on lithium niobate, so lithium niobate is a fair electric crystal. It's used very widely in optical components and in acousto optics and then surface acoustic wave devices. It's a fair electric crystal, that has sort of a built-in polarization. And that enables, a lot of effects, which are very useful including the piezoelectric effect, electro- optic effects. And it has a very large K2 optical non-linearity. So it allows for three wave mixing. It also has some effects that are not so great for example, pyroelectricity but because it's very, established material system there's a lot of tricks on how to deal with some of the less attractive parts of it of this material. Now most, Surface Acoustic Wave, or optical devices that you would find are based on kind of bulk lithium niobate crystals that either use surface acoustic waves that propagate on a surface or, you know, bulk waves propagating through a whole crystal, or have a very weak weakly guided low index contrast waveguide that's patterned in the lithium niobate. This was the case until just a little over a decade ago. And this work from ETH Zurich came showing that thin-film lithium niobate can be, bonded and patterned. And Photonic circuits very similar to assigning circuits made from three fives or Silicon can be implemented in this material system. And this really led to a lot of different efforts from different labs. I would say the major breakthrough came, just a few years ago from Marko Loncar, where they demonstrate that high quality factors are possible to realize in this platform. And so they showed resonators with quality factors in the tens of billions corresponding to, line widths of tens of megahertz or losses of, just a few, DB per meter. And so that really changed the picture and you know a little bit after that in collaboration with Martin Fejer's group at Stanford they were able to demonstrate polling and so very large this version engineered nonlinear effects and these types of waveguides. And, and so that showed that, sort of very new types of circuits can be possible on this platform Now our approach is very similar. So we have a thin film of lithium niobate and this time it's on Sapphire instead of oxide or some polymer. and sometimes we put oxide on top. Some Silicon oxide on top, and we can also put electrodes these electrodes can be made out of a superconductor like niobium or aluminum or they can be gold depending on what we're trying to do. The sort of important thing here is that the large index contrast means that, light is guided in a very highly confined waveguide. And it supports bends with small bending radii. And that means we can have resonators that are very small. So the mode volume for the photonic resonators can be very small and as is well known. The interaction rate scale is, one over squared of mode volume. And so we're talking about an enhancement of around six orders of magnitude in the interaction length interaction lengths, over systems using sort of bulk components. And this is in a circuit that's sort of sub millimeter in size and its made on this platform. Now interaction length is important but also quality factor is very important. So when you make these things smaller you don't want to make them much less here. That's, you know, you can look at, for example a second harmonic generation efficiency in these types of resonances and that scales as Q, to the power of three essentially. So you need to achieve, you win a lot by going to low loss circuits. Now loss and non-linearity or sort of material and waveguide properties that we can engineer, but design of these circuits, careful design of these circuits is also very important. For example, you know, because these are highly confined waves and dielectric wave guides they can, you can support several different orders of modes especially if you're working for a broad band light waves that span, you know, an octave. And now when you try to couple light in and out of these structures, you have to be very careful that you're only picking up the polarizations that you care about, and you're not inducing extra loss channels effectively reducing the queue, even though there's no material loss if you're these parasitic coupling, can lead to lower Q. so the design is very important. This plot demonstrates, you know, the types of extrinsic to intrinsic coupling that are needed to achieve very high efficiency SHG, which is unrelated to optical parametric oscillation. And, you know, you, so you sort of have to work in a regime where the extrinsic couplings are much larger than the intrinsic couplings. And this is generally true for any type of quantum operation that you want to do. So just just low material loss itself isn't enough to design is also very important. In terms of where we are, on these three important aspects like getting large G large Q and large cap up. So we've been able to achieve high Q in, in these structures. This is a Q a of a couple million, we've also been able to you can see from a broad transmission spectrum through a grading coupler you can see a very evenly spaced modes showing that we're only coupling to one mode family. And we can see that the depth of the modes is also very large, you know, 90% or more. And that means that our extrinsic coupling in intrinsic coupling is also very large. So we've been able to kind of engineer these devices and to achieve this in terms of the interaction, I won't go over it too much but, you know, in collaboration with Marty Feres group we were able to pull both lithium niobate on insulator and lithium niobate on Sapphire. We'll be able to see a very efficient, sort of high slope proficiency second harmonic generation, you know achieving approaching 5000% per watt centimeters squared for 1560 to 780 conversion. So this is all work in progress. And so for now, I'd like to talk a little bit about the integration of acoustic and mechanical components. So, first of all why would we want to integrate mechanical components? Well, there's lots of cases where, for example you want to have an extremely high extinction switching functionality. That's very difficult to do with electro optics because they need to control the phase, extremely efficiently with extreme precision. You would need very large, long resonators and or large voltages becomes very difficult to achieve you know, 60 DB types of, switching. Mechanical systems. On the other hand, they can have very small mode volumes and can give you 60 DB switching without too many complications. Of course the drawback is that they're slower, but for a lot of applications, that doesn't matter too much. So in terms of being able to make integrate memes, switching and tuning with this platform, here's a device that achieves that so that each of these beams is actuated through the Piezoelectric effect and lithium niobate via this pair of electrodes that we put a voltage across. And when you put a voltage across these have been designed to leverage one of the off diagonal terms in the piezoelectric tensor, which causes bending. And so this bending generates a very large displacement in the center of this beam, in this beam, you might notice is composed of a grading, and this grading effectively generates it's photonic crystal cavity. So it generates a localize optical mode in the center which is very sensitive to these displacements. And what we're able to see in this system is that you know, just a few millivolts so 50 millivolts here shifts the resonance frequency by much more than a line width just a few millivolts is enough to shift by a line width. And so to achieve switching we can also tune this resonance across the full telecom band and these types of devices whether in waveguide resonator form can be extremely useful for sort of phase control in a large scale system, where you might want to have many many face switches on a chip to control phases with, with low loss, because these wave guides are shorter. You have lower loss propagating across them. Now, these interactions are fairly low frequency. When we go to higher frequency, we can use the electro-optic effect. And even the electro-optic effect even though it's very widely used, and well-known on a Photonic circuit like these lithium Niobate for tying circuits has, interesting consequences and device opportunities that don't exist on the bulk devices. So for example, let's look at single sideband modulation. This is what an electro-optic sort of standard electro optics, single sideband modulator looks like you, you take your light, you split into two parts, and then you modulate each of these arms. You modulate them out of phase with an RFC tone that's out of phase. And so now you generate side bands on both and now because they're modulating out of phase when they are recombined and on the output splitter and this mock sender interferometer you end up dropping one of the side bands and then the pump and you end up with a shifted side pan. So that's possible you can do single side band modulation with an electronic device but the caveat is that this is now fundamentally lossy. So, you know, you have generated, this other side band via modulation, and the sideband is simply being lost due to interference. So it's their, It's getting combined, it's getting scattered away because there's no mode that it can get connected to. So actually you know, this is going kind of an efficiency less than 3DB usually much less than 3DB. And that's fine if you just have one of these single sideband modulators because you can always amplify, you can send more power but if you're talking about a system and you have many of these and you can't put amplifiers everywhere then, or you're working with quantum information where loss is particularly bad. This is not an option. Now, when you use resonators, you have another option. So here's a device that tries to demonstrate this. This is two resonators that are brought into the near-field of each other. So they're coupled with each other over here where they're, which causes a splitting. And now when we tune the DC voltage was tuned one of these resonators by sort of changing the effective half lengths And one of these resonators tunes, the frequency, we can see an We should see an anti crossing between the two modes and at the center of this splitting this is versus voltage, a splitting at the center at this voltage, let's say here it's around 15 volts. We can see two residences two dips, when we probed the line field going through. And now if we send in the pump resonant, with one of these, and we modulate at this difference frequency we generate this red side band but we actually don't generate the blue side band because there's no optical density of state. So the, so because there's this other side may has just not generated. This system is now much more efficient. In fact, so in Marco Loncar has give they've demonstrated. You can get a hundred percent conversion. And we've also demonstrated this in a similar experiment showing that you can get very large sideband suppression. So, you know more than 30 DB suppression of the side bands with respect to the sideband that you care about It's also interesting that these interactions now preserve quantum coherence. And this is one path to creating links between superconducting microwave systems and optical components. Because now the microwave signal that's scattered here preserves its coherence. So we've also been able to do acoustic optic interactions at these high frequencies. This is a, this is an acoustic optic modulator that operates at a few gigahertz. Basically you generate electric field here which generates a propagating wave inside this transducer made out of lithium niobate. These are aluminum electrodes on top. The phonons are focused down into a small phononic waveguides that guides mechanical waves. And then these are brought into this crystal area where the sound and the Mo and the light are both convert confined to wavelength skill mode volume and they interact very strongly with each other. And the strong interaction leads to very efficient, effective electro-optic modulation. So here we've been able to see, with just a few microwatts of power, many, many side bands being generated. So this is a fact that they like tropic much later where the VPI is, a few thousands of a volt instead of, you know, several volts, which is sort of the off the shelf, electro-optic modulator that you would find. And importantly, we've been able to combine these, photonic and phononic circuits into the same platform. So this is a lithium niobate on same Lithium niobate on Sapphire platform. This is an acoustic transducer that generates mechanical waves that propagate in this lithium niobate waveguide. You can see them here and we can make phononic circuits now. so this is a ring resonate. It's a ring resonator for phonons. So we send sound waves through. And when it's resonance, when its frequency hits the ring residences, we see peaks. and this is, this is cheeks in the drop port coming out. And what's really nice about this platform is that we actually don't need to unlike unlike many memes platforms where you have to have released steps that are usually not compatible with, you know other devices here, there's no release steps. So the phonons are guided in that thin lithium niobate layer. The high Q of these mechanical modes shows that these mechanical resonances can be very coherent oscillators. And so we've also worked towards integrating these with very non-linear microwave circuits to create strongly interacting phonons and phonon circuits. So this is a example of an experiment we did over a year ago, where we have sort of a superconducting Qubit circuit with mechanical resonances made out of lithium niobate shunting the Qubit capacitor to ground. So now vibrations of this mechanical oscillator generate a voltage across these electrodes that couples to the Qubits voltage. And so now you have an interaction between this qubit and the mechanical oscillator, and we can see that in the spectrum of the qubit as we tune it across the frequency band. And we see splittings every time the qubit frequency approaches the mechanical resonance frequency. And infact this coupling is so large, that we were able to observe for the first time, the phonon spectrum. So we can detune this qubit away from the mechanical resonance. And now you have a dispersive shift on the qubit which is proportional to the number of phonons. And because number of photons is quantized. We can actually see, the different phonon levels in the qubit spectrum. Moving forward, we've been trying to, also understand what the sources of loss are in the system. And we've been able to do this by demonstrating by fabricating very large rays in these mechanical oscillators and looking at things like, their quality factor versus frequency. This is an example of a measurement that shows a jump in the quality factor when we enter the frequency band where we expect our phononic band gap for this period, periodic material is this jump you know, in principle,if loss were only due to clamping only due to acoustic waves leaking out in these out of these ends, then this change in quality factor quality factor should go to essentially infinite or should be ex exponential losses should be exponentially suppress with the length So these, but it's not. And that means we're actually limited by other loss channels. And we've been able to determine that these are two level systems and the lithium niobate by looking at the temperature dependence of these losses and seeing that they fit very well sort of standard models that exist for the effects of two level systems on microwave and mechanical resonances. We've also started experimenting with different materials. In fact, we've been able to see that, for example, going to lithium niobate, that's dope with magnesium oxide changes or reduces significantly the effect of the two level systems. And this is a really exciting direction of research that we're pursuing. So we're understanding these materials. So with that, I'd like to thank the sponsors. NTTResearch, of course, a lot of this work was funded by DARPA, ONR, RAO, DOE very generous funding from David and Lucile Packard foundation and others that are shown here. So thank you.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering M I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back to M I. T. Everybody. This is the Cube. The leader in live coverage. My name is David wanted. I'm here with my co host, Paul Gill, in this day to coverage of the M I t cdo I Q conference. A lot of acronym stands for M I. T. Of course, the great institution. But Chief Data officer information quality event is his 13th annual event. Lars to Maria's here is the managing partner of Brass Rat Capital. Cool name Lars. Welcome to the Cube. Great. Very much. Glad I start with a name brass around Capitol was That's >> rat is reference to the M I t school. Okay, Beaver? Well, he is, but the students call it a brass rat, and I'm third generation M i t. So it's just seen absolutely appropriate. That is a brass rods and capital is not a reference to money, but is actually referenced to the intellectual capital. They if you have five or six brass rats in the same company, you know, we Sometimes engineers arrive and they could do some things. >> And it Boy, if you put in some data data capital in there, you really explosions. We cause a few problems. So we're gonna talk about some new regulations that are coming down. New legislation that's coming down that you exposed me to yesterday, which is gonna have downstream implications. You get ahead of this stuff and understand it. You can really first of all, prepare, make sure you're in compliance, but then potentially take advantage for your business. So explain to us this notion of open government act. >> Um, in the last five years, six years or so, there's been an effort going on to increase the transparency across all levels of government. Okay, State, local and federal government. The first of federal government laws was called the the Open Data Act of 2014 and that was an act. They was acted unanimously by Congress and signed by Obama. They was taking the departments of the various agencies of the United States government and trying to roll up all the expenses into one kind of expense. This is where we spent our money and who got the money and doing that. That's what they were trying to do. >> Big picture type of thing. >> Yeah, big picture type thing. But unfortunately, it didn't work, okay? Because they forgot to include this odd word called mentalities. So the same departments meant the same thing. Data problem. They have a really big data problem. They still have it. So they're to G et o reports out criticizing how was done, and the government's gonna try and correct it. Then in earlier this year, there was another open government date act which said in it was signed by Trump. Now, this time you had, like, maybe 25 negative votes, but essentially otherwise passed Congress completely. I was called the Open as all capital O >> P E >> n Government Data act. Okay, and that's not been implemented yet. But there's live talking around this conference today in various Chief date officers are talking about this requirement that every single non intelligence defense, you know, vital protection of the people type stuff all the like, um, interior, treasury, transportation, those type of systems. If you produce a report these days, which is machine, I mean human readable. You must now in two years or three years. I forget the exact invitation date. Have it also be machine readable. Now, some people think machine riddle mil means like pdf formats, but no, >> In fact, what the government did is it >> said it must be machine readable. So you must be able to get into the reports, and you have to be able to extract out the information and attach it to the tree of knowledge. Okay, so we're all of sudden having context like they're currently machine readable, Quote unquote, easy reports. But you can get into those SEC reports. You pull out the net net income information and says its net income, but you don't know what it attaches to on the tree of knowledge. So, um, we are helping the government in some sense able, machine readable type reporting that weaken, do machine to machine without people being involved. >> Would you say the tree of knowledge You're talking about the constant >> man tick semantic tree of knowledge so that, you know, we all come from one concept like the human is example of a living thing living beast, a living Beeston example Living thing. So it also goes back, and they're serving as you get farther and farther out the tree, there's more distance or semantic distance, but you can attach it back to concept so you can attach context to the various data. Is this essentially metadata? That's what people call it. But if I would go over see sale here at M I t, they would turn around. They call it the Tree of Knowledge or semantic data. Okay, it's referred to his semantic dated, So you are passing not only the data itself, but the context that >> goes along with the data. Okay, how does this relate to the financial transparency? >> Well, Financial Transparency Act was introduced by representative Issa, who's a Republican out of California. He's run the government Affairs Committee in the House. He retired from Congress this past November, but in 2017 he introduced what's got referred to his H R 15 30 Um, and the 15 30 is going to dramatically change the way, um, financial regulators work in the United States. Um, it is about it was about to be introduced two weeks ago when the labor of digital currency stuff came up. So it's been delayed a little bit because they're trying to add some of the digital currency legislation to that law. >> A front run that Well, >> I don't know exactly what the remember soul coming out of Maxine Waters Committee. So the staff is working on a bunch of different things at once. But, um, we own g was asked to consult with them on looking at the 15 30 act and saying, How would we improve quote unquote, given our technical, you know, not doing policy. We just don't have the technical aspects of the act. How would we want to see it improved? So one of the things we have advised is that for the first time in the United States codes history, they're gonna include interesting term called ontology. You know what intelligence? Well, everyone gets scared by the word. And when I read run into people, they say, Are you a doctor? I said, no, no, no. I'm just a date. A guy. Um, but an intolerant tea is like a taxonomy, but it had order has important, and an ontology allows you to do it is ah, kinda, you know, giving some context of linking something to something else. And so you're able Thio give Maur information with an intolerant that you're able to you with a tax on it. >> Okay, so it's a taxonomy on steroids? >> Yes, exactly what? More flexible, >> Yes, but it's critically important for artificial intelligence machine warning because if I can give them until ology of sort of how it goes up and down the semantics, I can turn around, do a I and machine learning problems on the >> order of 100 >> 1000 even 10,000 times faster. And it has context. It has contacts in just having a little bit of context speeds up these problems so dramatically so and it is that what enables the machine to machine? New notion? No, the machine to machine is coming in with son called SP R M just standard business report model. It's a OMG sophistication of way of allowing the computers or machines, as we call them these days to get into a standard business report. Okay, so let's say you're ah drug company. You have thio certify you >> drugged you manufactured in India, get United States safely. Okay, you have various >> reporting requirements on the way. You've got to give extra easy the FDA et cetera that will always be a standard format. The SEC has a different format. FERC has a different format. Okay, so what s p r m does it allows it to describe in an intolerant he what's in the report? And then it also allows one to attach an ontology to the cells in the report. So if you like at a sec 10 Q 10 k report, you can attach a US gap taxonomy or ontology to it and say, OK, net income annual. That's part of the income statement. You should never see that in a balance sheet type item. You know his example? Okay. Or you can for the first time by having that context you can say are solid problem, which suggested that you can file these machine readable reports that air wrong. So they believe or not, There were about 50 cases in the last 10 years where SEC reports have been filed where the assets don't equal total liabilities, plus cheryl equity, you know, just they didn't add >> up. So this to, >> you know, to entry accounting doesn't work. >> Okay, so so you could have the machines go and check scale. Hey, we got a problem We've >> got a problem here, and you don't have to get humans evolved. So we're gonna, um uh, Holland in Australia or two leaders ahead of the United States. In this area, they seem dramatic pickups. I mean, Holland's reporting something on the order of 90%. Pick up Australia's reporting 60% pickup. >> We say pick up. You're talking about pickup of errors. No efficiency, productivity, productivity. Okay, >> you're taking people out of the whole cycle. It's dramatic. >> Okay, now what's the OMG is rolling on the hoof. Explain the OMG >> Object Management Group. I'm not speaking on behalf of them. It's a membership run organization. You remember? I am a >> member of cold. >> I'm a khalid of it. But I don't represent omg. It's the membership has to collectively vote that this is what we think. Okay, so I can't speak on them, right? I have a pretty significant role with them. I run on behalf of OMG something called the Federated Enterprise Risk Management Group. That's the group which is focusing on risk management for large entities like the federal government's Veterans Affairs or Department offense upstairs. I think talking right now is the Chief date Officer for transportation. OK, that's a large organization, which they, they're instructed by own be at the, um, chief financial officer level. The one number one thing to do for the government is to get an effective enterprise worst management model going in the government agencies. And so they come to own G let just like NIST or just like DARPA does from the defense or intelligence side, saying we need to have standards in this area. So not only can we talk thio you effectively, but we can talk with our industry partners effectively on space. Programs are on retail, on medical programs, on finance programs, and so they're at OMG. There are two significant financial programs, or Sanders, that exist once called figgy financial instrument global identifier, which is a way of identifying a swap. Its way of identifying a security does not have to be used for a que ce it, but a worldwide. You can identify that you know, IBM stock did trade in Tokyo, so it's a different identifier has different, you know, the liberals against the one trading New York. Okay, so those air called figgy identifiers them. There are attributes associated with that security or that beast the being identified, which is generally comes out of 50 which is the financial industry business ontology. So you know, it says for a corporate bond, it has coupon maturity, semi annual payment, bullets. You know, it is an example. So that gives you all the information that you would need to go through to the calculation, assuming you could have a calculation routine to do it, then you need thio. Then turn around and set up your well. Call your environment. You know where Ford Yield Curves are with mortgage backed securities or any portable call. Will bond sort of probabilistic lee run their numbers many times and come up with effective duration? Um, And then you do your Vader's analytics. No aggregating the portfolio and looking at Shortfalls versus your funding. Or however you're doing risk management and then finally do reporting, which is where the standardized business reporting model comes in. So that kind of the five parts of doing a full enterprise risk model and Alex So what >> does >> this mean for first? Well, who does his impact on? What does it mean for organizations? >> Well, it's gonna change the world for basically everyone because it's like doing a clue ends of a software upgrade. Conversion one's version two point. Oh, and you know how software upgrades Everyone hates and it hurts because everyone's gonna have to now start using the same standard ontology. And, of course, that Sarah Ontology No one completely agrees with the regulators have agreed to it. The and the ultimate controlling authority in this thing is going to be F sock, which is the Dodd frank mandated response to not ever having another chart. So the secretary of Treasury heads it. It's Ah, I forget it's the, uh, federal systemic oversight committee or something like that. All eight regulators report into it. And, oh, if our stands is being the adviser Teff sock for all the analytics, what these laws were doing, you're getting over farm or more power to turn around and look at how we're going to find data across the three so we can come up consistent analytics and we can therefore hopefully take one day. Like Goldman, Sachs is pre payment model on mortgages. Apply it to Citibank Portfolio so we can look at consistency of analytics as well. It is only apply to regulated businesses. It's gonna apply to regulated financial businesses. Okay, so it's gonna capture all your mutual funds, is gonna capture all your investment adviser is gonna catch her. Most of your insurance companies through the medical air side, it's gonna capture all your commercial banks is gonna capture most of you community banks. Okay, Not all of them, because some of they're so small, they're not regularly on a federal basis. The one regulator which is being skipped at this point, is the National Association Insurance Commissioners. But they're apparently coming along as well. Independent federal legislation. Remember, they're regulated on the state level, not regularly on the federal level. But they've kind of realized where the ball's going and, >> well, let's make life better or simply more complex. >> It's going to make life horrible at first, but we're gonna take out incredible efficiency gains, probably after the first time you get it done. Okay, is gonna be the problem of getting it done to everyone agreeing. We use the same definitions >> of the same data. Who gets the efficiency gains? The regulators, The companies are both >> all everyone. Can you imagine that? You know Ah, Goldman Sachs earnings report comes out. You're an analyst. Looking at How do I know what Goldman? Good or bad? You have your own equity model. You just give the model to the semantic worksheet and all turn around. Say, Oh, those numbers are all good. This is what expected. Did it? Did it? Didn't you? Haven't. You could do that. There are examples of companies here in the United States where they used to have, um, competitive analysis. Okay. They would be taking somewhere on the order of 600 to 7. How 100 man hours to do the competitive analysis by having an available electronically, they cut those 600 hours down to five to do a competitive analysis. Okay, that's an example of the type of productivity you're gonna see both on the investment side when you're doing analysis, but also on the regulatory site. Can you now imagine you get a regulatory reports say, Oh, there's they're out of their way out of whack. I can tell you this fraud going on here because their numbers are too much in X y z. You know, you had to fudge numbers today, >> and so the securities analyst can spend Mme. Or his or her time looking forward, doing forecasts exactly analysis than having a look back and reconcile all this >> right? And you know, you hear it through this conference, for instance, something like 80 to 85% of the time of analysts to spend getting the data ready. >> You hear the same thing with data scientists, >> right? And so it's extent that we can helped define the data. We're going thio speed things up dramatically. But then what's really instinct to me, being an M I t engineer is that we have great possibilities. An A I I mean, really great possibilities. Right now, most of the A miles or pattern matching like you know, this idea using face shield technology that's just really doing patterns. You can do wonderful predictive analytics of a I and but we just need to give ah lot of the a m a. I am a I models the contact so they can run more quickly. OK, so we're going to see a world which is gonna found funny, But we're going to see a world. We talk about semantic analytics. Okay. Semantic analytics means I'm getting all the inputs for the analysis with context to each one of the variables. And when I and what comes out of it will be a variable results. But you also have semantics with it. So one in the future not too distant future. Where are we? We're in some of the national labs. Where are you doing it? You're doing pipelines of one model goes to next model goes the next mile. On it goes Next model. So you're gonna software pipelines, Believe or not, you get them running out of an Excel spreadsheet. You know, our modern Enhanced Excel spreadsheet, and that's where the future is gonna be. So you really? If you're gonna be really good in this business, you're gonna have to be able to use your brain. You have to understand what data means You're going to figure out what your modeling really means. What happens if we were, You know, normally for a lot of the stuff we do bell curves. Okay, well, that doesn't have to be the only distribution you could do fat tail. So if you did fat tail descriptions that a bell curve gets you much different results. Now, which one's better? I don't know, but, you know, and just using example >> to another cut in the data. So our view now talk about more about the tech behind this. He's mentioned a I What about math? Machine learning? Deep learning. Yeah, that's a color to that. >> Well, the tech behind it is, believe or not, some relatively old tech. There is a technology called rd F, which is kind of turned around for a long time. It's a science kind of, ah, machine learning, not machine wearing. I'm sorry. Machine code type. Fairly simplistic definitions. Lots of angle brackets and all this stuff there is a higher level. That was your distracted, I think put into standard in, like, 2000 for 2005. Called out. Well, two point. Oh, and it does a lot at a higher level. The same stuff that already f does. Okay, you could also create, um, believer, not your own special ways of a communicating and ontology just using XML. Okay, So, uh, x b r l is an enhanced version of XML, okay? And so some of these older technologies, quote unquote old 20 years old, are essentially gonna be driving a lot of this stuff. So you know you know Corbett, right? Corba? Is that what a maid omg you know, on the communication and press thing, do you realize that basically every single device in the world has a corpus standard at okay? Yeah, omg Standard isn't all your smartphones and all your computers. And and that's how they communicate. It turns out that a lot of this old stuff quote unquote, is so rigidly well defined. Well done that you can build modern stuff that takes us to the Mars based on these old standards. >> All right, we got to go. But I gotta give you the award for the most acronyms >> HR 15 30 fi G o m g s b r >> m fsoc tarp. Oh, fr already halfway. We knew that Owl XML ex brl corba, Which of course >> I do. But that's well done. Like thanks so much for coming. Everyone tried to have you. All right, keep it right there, everybody, We'll be back with our next guest from M i t cdo I Q right after this short, brief short message. Thank you

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone live coverage here in San Francisco for the Cube, Google Cloud next twenty nineteen to show around Cloud, Google Cloud, I'm John Forest Do Minimum and Dave along. We've been here all week, three days of wall to wall coverage here on the floor with all the exhibitors. Write the mean all the action we've talked to all the thought leaders, Google executives, entrepreneurs, experts are in the cloud and around the ecosystem. Dave's stew wrapping up the wrap up segment. Kind of can I put the show to rest and look to next year and possibly Google summits. There's one in New York and some other shows we're looking to also cover. But if you look encapsulate the show, I want to get your guys reaction, too. What the main themes have been, we're seeing obviously anthems was the big news. That's the big deal. That's their platform. They want to bring all the connective tissue around data security and really on prim hybrid cloud multi cloud application modernization. Clearly, during my open source and enterprise developers, plus the ability to hybrid and multi cloud stew. Your thoughts on the show. >> Yeah. So, John, you know, when I first saw Antos, I was like, Well, this is CSP that they announced last year We were excited about that talk about things like Azure Stack and eight of us Outpost. But the more I learn about it, the more I understand it. It's more than just kind of g k e and a little bit of packaging here, Eric for David. I just interviewed a Google fellow and, you know, you expect the the Google Fellow to really be able to articulate, You know, the history of Google and the distributor architect doing is like we're going to enable cloud native. Of course, we always had that in the Google Cloud, but now we're going to make that easier for you to do that in your own environment. So when you're thinking about modernizing your applications, you know, I was a little bit tough on Google when I said, Oh, I hear a lot about lift and shift. Well, most customers can't lifted, shifted, not change, because then I'LL pull it back. It's too expensive, but if I could modernize wherever it makes the most sense. I talked to some customers here that said, Look, I need to kick the team and get it into the cloud And then I could modernize and start falling apart. But for someone customers, I can't move that. And they need to modernize it here and that Antos is the key enabler and therefore it's a good message, its extension of what they done with Cuba. Netease. That's a lot of other pieces here. But you know, I'm pretty impressed. >> They want to get your thoughts is one of things I'm seeing and, you know, in sports they wanna team, plays a game and wins. They call it a statement game. I think Google Cloud next twenty nineteen is a statement by Google saying, We're into the enterprise. We're not goingto waiver. We got hired Thomas Curry and mid savory. They're going to keep all the great talent. No one's believing. It's not like a new regime. Change came in. They're pivoting. They knows there's no pivot here. They put a stake in the ground saying we are going to invest in the clouds soon. DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google said that on stage of day one, they're clearly putting all the window dressing around enterprise with all the great phrases that we love. Digital transformation, data centric architecture, multi cloud hybrid monitors that applications They're invested, Dave. They are in it to play. They recognize that they're not gonna win right away because it's a long game. So Google clearly is playing the cards properly. They're saying, Look, if we're going to bring a lot of the table and this long time table, but we're in it to play and we're going to play well when invest. >> Yeah, I think it took a while for me to get there Stew, too. He is. I heard a lot about what Right we do get a global distributed infrastructure or we're doing the applications for digital transformation. We got industry specific solutions. Is what way d'Oh. Okay. Great. And I heard a lot of you know differentiators are unique value proposition. So, for civil, what I would have liked to hear it right up front was okay. We know that eighty percent of your workloads are on Prem. Well, guess what, and we're investing in scale and all that stuff, but We're the best at cloud native and and we're going to take and we have the tools and expertise. We're gonna bring those to you on your premises and show you how to get there. And then when you're ready, come to the cloud. If you're never ready, that's fine. But we're going to earn the right for your future business. Hey said that Stead that >> right way, the things we're wondering your business. But I don't think they can yet say were the best that cloud native and that I think that's that's still good self awareness studio for Google. >> I think they could say it now. Maybe it's debatable. >> I would debate that I do not think that Google is the best cloud native cloud at this point. I don't think they have the breath and depth Amazon has, but I don't think that that's the hard core stick in the ground. Because Cloud native is early cnc F, they're investing heavily in open source is a big bet that they're talking about. They got a lot more work to do but cloud needed. Still, it's still early because you said the workloads is still on premise for most of the enterprises, so we got plenty of time. The point is, if they had overplayed that card, I would have been more cautious. >> Well, I mean, Okay, fine, huh? Let's talk talk about that a little bit because it's new. It's Would you? Would you disagree that internally, Google's got the most sophisticated, the best cloud in the world internally, globally for Google. And they make that comment when they make that claim, right? That start there, we get the best cloud in the world. Yeah, >> well, I think it's got a great cloud, >> too. Okay, so there's stuff on there. I mean, they've got least got some credibility there, so I would have come from that position straight now. The other criticism I heard was where the numbers. Now, that doesn't bother me so much. How long did it take Amazon to show us the numbers? Nine years? I think so. Good. We'LL get there, it's clear it's growing. You look around here. There's what thirty thirty five thousand people don't know what was there last year. Twenty. Twenty five thousand. It's growing, it's growing nicely and the quality of the people is good. >> Here's what I'd say about Google Cloud Steward? Let's get your reaction. Sudhir has Bay said this. He's the director product. Mentioning about cloud fusion, he said This from a customer quote. Google's cloud is like an awesome highway, but I can't get my car on the road. So that's the on ramp. >> I can't get by giving car. Okay, so so this note about you Look at the >> technology from Spanner Cooper duties, which was founded inside Google. And they did that right. Big queries. Amazing. They have freaking amazing tech because they had to do it for Google. So I think that is a key strategy. And I, like other clouds that have come in and then died away, didn't have a lot of tech chops. So Cultural Shift is one of the big teams, but on ramping, getting people on board and the bed another source. I think there's a gestation period that's gives Google some time. I don't think they gotta have it overnight there some table stakes, but they're there checking the boxes just kind of grind it out. >> I mean, look, the critique has been for years is you know, Google's too smart for all of us. you know, way have love reading the papers and were really impressed with the technology. But the term you heard over and over again this week, we're going to meet customers where they are. And I I almost failed. They dialled it down a little too much here because I didn't have anything that I'm like. Wow, blown away. Like, you know, they had er's up on stage and it's like I'm used to seeing him flying out of a plane with a Google glass on his head. >> I was started by the way that was Google. I o like, you're >> gay. But, you know, you know, one of that's what you expect from a googol is you know, some of those pieces and there wasn't a G wow amazing moment for me, but the messaging solid, they absolutely you know, understanding or solving some real customer problems today and, you know, solid >> well and one hundred percent of the cloud providers now have a coherent and explainable hybrid on Prem strategy. You know, frankly, it's about time. I mean, they were denying that for a long time, and I think it's clear that's where the business is >> well to me. The big criteria on the cloud game is Do they have the global footprint? They do. Do they have the software at scale Check? Do they have the connective tissue to bring these disparity opportunity data services together Check working on it, continue to improve. And are they on the philosophy side of things? Meaning one of things that I am made Amazon really great. Wass they from day one. We're a P I center who will always has been part of web services. So they have that DNA. I think apogee is going to be the secret little dark horse. And all this is going to tell Signe because as a p, I become programmable. You saw Sisko of'em wear on stage. Can they build on ecosystem? Can they work with multiple vendors? Because the fact is, from our data and we've been reporting on this on silicon angle and Wiki bomb is that big enterprises and governments, whether it's a d, o. D. Or a big bank, are gonna have hundreds of cloud projects, hundreds of workloads that's going to require unique clouds selection criteria because you cannot separate real time data from software, and that's just the facts of the databases are moving all over the place. If I gotta work Lodi, any data? I gotta be agile with the data, but I then need a data plane to connect across other workload. So workload conversation, I don't think was front and center enough where workloads are for the key criteria. >> And still some of the message on where Google fits in that hybrid and multi cloud world is a little bit muddy to me. So how did they get, you know, on those in your data center? Well, it's a deep partnership with V m where, uh, you know, I heard some people here. It's like, Oh, well, the current Amazon VM wear deal, you know, is like up for renewal soon. It's like I don't see Veum Where an Amazon separating that Latino way. People engineering partnerships. We've heard directly from Andy Jazz sees talked about on the Cube how important that relationship is. S O Veum was going to play across all the cloud environment. But you know, where does Google, you know, really make their money? They're going to partner with all the open source companies. And you know, you're going to own your data. We're going to make sure the prophecies there. So is Dave Said the numbers and the business of how Google Khun start slow scaling and really growing the enterprise business beyond, you know, G sweets now, part of it. And we saw some of the android for enterprise, and they have lots of pieces, but the cloud revenue gets a little bit muddy like a Microsoft. So, you know, from the cloud piece itself, I'm not sure where you know they start gaining on a Microsoft or an Amazon today. >> Well, I think that they could gain ground, take territories. That said on on Day one, Jennifer Linds, demo of no code modification, migration of workloads. If that actually happens, that's going to be a critical piece of the pie that's going to move. Move the needle very quickly for at Google. But I >> want to get you >> guys take on surprises. What surprised you here at the show? What was something that you didn't expect happen? That was a surprise on a good way. To me, the big surprise is that the word customer was used a lot more here than ever before. Customer is the key to success in the enterprise, listening to customer and customer choice. That's the playbook from Amazon. You don't hear Andy Jassy or any other executive Amazon go three words without saying the word customer. If you had a tag cloud and be like customers, the biggest font here we've heard customer choice. That's been a big one for me. >> Surprises. I was going to say when you were asking that question to get to me. It was customer related as well. You know clearly when you in Amazon show it's just customer. Just get inundated with a cool injection of customers. It's very impressive, but you don't have that scale here. However, What did see is a lot of Fortune. One thousand company's senior people were here. Yeah, still kicking the tires but learning. And I think that usually leads to something. So I think Google's developing a lot of pipeline at this show that I think next year is going to translate. We had conversations John with companies that we can't mention on air, but they are seriously substantively looking at moving workloads into Google's Cloud Number one. Number two is if you look around here, Deloitte, Accenture at toes. You know, some of the biggest. I'd like to see more of those global s eyes, and I think you will. And that's where you're going to really start to see customers. >> Dave took the customer. I'll say partner. So we said in one of our analysis segments, that logo slides Good. But, you know, compare itto Microsoft or Amazon. It needs to quadruple where it is today. But in the conversations that I had from startups through some of those big logo's on here, partnering with Google is good for them and they're excited by it. And that's not necessarily the clay case for every one of the big cloud providers out there. >> All right, so a lot of multi cloud talk. I've said multi clouds all the rage, but it's really more a symptom of sort of multi vendor people going best of breed with different departments. Big news last night on Jet I John, I want to get your take. Google really wasn't I don't think ever in the running, but certainly, you know Amazon was the lead Oracle, IBM, Microsoft share the news in your analysis of that news. >> Well, yesterday there was news that the Department of Defense, this Jet I contract joint defense initiative that's going on joining the Price Defense Initiative system. The military cloud ten billion dollar contract was under a lot of It's the biggest story in Tech and DC in generations. It's the confluence of procurement being outdated. Clouds selection, one soul cloud for that workload, multi cloud across in the department and a lot of lost business, potentially for Oracle in IBM. So Amazon, Microsoft, Amazon, Webster's, Microsoft, Oracle and IBM. We're all fighting for this business. The incumbents IBM and Oracle. We're potentially at risk billions of dollars. So it's been a lot of dirty pool, so to speak, a lot of dirty politics, a lot of dirty smear campaigns going on, from Oracle to to Amazon to try to discredit them. So the D. O d. Oracle soothe d o d. Saying is unfair process conflict of interest? The D. O. D made a final selection. Amazon Web services and Microsoft are the final selections and basically kicking out Oracle and IBM at the process. So Oracle, IBM are out. Oracle's lawsuit's still pending that'LL probably be dismissed because Oracle tried three different times to claim conflict of interest. They tried to claim conflict of interest in. And where has three in my notes here July twenty eighteen, November twenty eighteen and April twenty nineteen. All three times competition has been not proven, and Oracle and IBM or out. The analysis here is, is that this proves what we've been saying on the Q and that is, is that you can have one cloud soul cloud for a workload. So the Department of Defense has hundreds of projects. But for the military project that ten billion dollar one Amazon or Microsoft, probably the Amazon to the front runner can serve that cloud. And that's the best architecture. That means that Microsoft will probably win the eight billion dollar contract of the D. O. E s contract for collaboration again. Soul Cloud Soul workload. This is the trendy. My analysis is that Oracle on IBM, mainly Oracle, knew that they were going to lose. They tried to do whatever it takes to kill the deal. And now the D. O. D. Has brought forward and their modernizing the application and all these lawsuits about procurement rules from nineteen eighty five all this trip wires, all these little nuances. This is a great win for the Department of Defense, and I think it is a tell sign for large enterprises because you could be multiple. You'd have multiple clouds, but you can have one cloud work on one workload. It could be a big monster workload like a ten billion dollar >> workload. >> There could be a small work. >> All the tech vendors want to eat it. The government trough, We know that. And so the why is this relevant? It's relevant to me because you're you're absolutely right for a particular set of workloads. Mission critical workloads, especially a single cloud, is going to be more cost effective, more secure, uh, higher availability, less complex. And that's really what the debate is here now is multi cloud gonna happen? Of course, for different workloads is going to be horses for courses. So multi cloud is a huge opportunity. Everybody's going after it stew uh, Google through its hat in the ring in a big way. We seem to have a couple of camps lining up and read. Had interesting, interesting leads in both camps. Kind of got the IBM redhead camp and of'em wear with now with Google Really interesting sort of chessboard matches going on? >> Yeah, absolutely. Every customer we talked to hear. There's no like, Oh, you know, I might be moving most of my stuff or even all of my stuff to the public cloud, but it is workload dependent, and that's how I'm choosing it. Google has some key strength. I took a little while to get the data and I and ML pieces that we know Google has some strength here. One of the questions I had coming into it Can they reclaim kind of that thought leadership space. I'd love to hear whether you guys think I think that was the case, but, you know, messaging point on good speed. You know T K has them talking to the Enterprise in a way that won't scare them away as to oh, geez, I'm not smart enough to work with Google so >> well, I think I think Google has to get enterprise compatible and they've been working really hard to do that, and they got it. Just grind it out. I said this on Tuesday. It's a grinding out game. They've got a got a fight to the trenches. We've got to get the check boxes, and this is what Amazon did that early on and helped them a lot. Google has been working hard, I think, their security angle with the from a device. I phoned the Android phone and onboard security at the edge is huge. I think data and Big Query and those kinds of on boarding tools is going to be a great accelerant. I think cloud code cloud Run Cloud build is a phenomenal construct. I think that's absolutely delivered Ella for friendly. If they can continue to serve the developer for the enterprise and make it easy to build and stand up applications that hit that sweet spot of the trend, which is the modernization of enterprise APS not develop, perhaps not like a startup started sort. Different styles are cloud born in the cloud enterprise that's gonna deal with legacy and all these compliance and all this risk. They could make that easy and make it Dev ops like That's a great check boxes. >> Just a quick note on that, because there was a lot of enterprise talk there. There's a nice group inside a Google, working with a lot of the startups, got to talk to a couple of the start up there, and Google's definitely company there looking to partner with. All >> right, guys, let's wrap this up. Google really leaning into the enterprise heavily. Obviously, they're not. They're not blinking. They're going to continue power forward thinking. I like the mojo they have here. They got a new CEO. We interviewed George Curry, and Thomas's brother Thomas couldn't make it on the Cube. He's super busy talking to customers were gonna get him on the cue soon, but you got a culture here. Google and the culture is innovation, and the cultures Dev ops. The culture's developed for the country's AP eyes D. That puts him in a good position, >> their thoughts. I mean, I've been saying for a decade I feel like a broken record. I said it so much. I stopped saying it that the marginal economics of the Cloud service providers who have scale are driving towards zero. In other words, the more volume they do, they're there. The cost of adding an extra customer goes down to zero, just like software. There's three companies in United States who have that scale Google, Amazon and Microsoft. Obviously some guys outside the U. S. And you look at the cap Ex numbers forty seven billion over the last three years by Google. Thirteen and a half billion year to date US data centers alone. It would take IBM three and a half years to spend that much on Affects Who take Oracle six years. Okay, they just do not have the marginal economics to compete. They'LL compete in other ways, but though these three are in it to win it this big market, they're trillion dollar market. There's enough room for each to carve out an opportunity and continue to grow for quite some time. Do >> and Google lining up their ecosystem of partners to help them get deep into the enterprise. Absolutely, There's good opportunity for Google to do a number of acquisitions. They have, you know, a big bank spend a lot of money not just on infrastructure, but all the partner engagements and definitely some acquisition to help them get there. Wouldn't be surprised if they, you know, made some nice acquisition to help them grow that enterprise. I am in a modern way way now that was mentioned to it was carrying twins could be back together, but sure, >> awesome stuff. Guys, I think my my final take is I've always said Google's the Dark Horse and the Cloud game. They don't have a lot of baggage like a lot of work to do, and they're they're working hard and they really bring in tech to the table that bringing that culture of innovation, they're there behind this. Opportunities for them to move the ball down the field in a big way. I think they can take territory and gain share quickly if global things follow the place. If those bets come home, this dark horse will be right up on number two really quickly. So great job. Wanna thank Google, Google's team Cool calms Team, Google's CMO and executive Thomas carrying for letting us come to the Cube. Bring the Cube here. Google's very co creation oriented. We appreciate the location. I want to thank Google one. Thanks to our sponsors about our sponsors, we wouldn't be here, so he city signal FX. We got net app. We got Saada. We got some great clients here supporting us. You, Fio. Thanks to our sponsors, they signal to the community they care and they support our programs. Our tenth year of Cube coverage at events one. Thank everyone for watching, listening, sharing hit us up on Twitter at Cube and also silken angle dot com. We now are adding on a new feature to our Cube, which is on silicon angle dot com special reports where we flow as many stories as it takes to get the truth out there. Get the story's right, of course. Used the cube and stream the data with you here on the Cube. We're here. Google Next in San Francisco. I'm John Faria student Min David Long. Thanks for watching.

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes live Google next nineteen coverage. I'm General Dave Violante. We're here for three days of wall to wall coverage, breaking down all the content from Google Clouds. Big conference here, Google next twenty nineteen or next gas joke of a vice president. Google Data Centers spans all the data centers that Google and Google Cloud deploy. He's the man in charge of thousands of full time employees, thousands of contractors, tens of thousands of construction worker. He's building out the infrastructure and footprint to make the cloud work for Joe. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you both Very much. >> So. Sin DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google, kicked off the Kino, the new CEO of Google Cloud. Thomas Korean came on always ten weeks into the job. Clearly, the investment in Google cloud new building on separate from campus. So Google and Google Cloud or two separate groups, has been reported clearly by us and others. But at the end of the day, you're gonna run all the stuffs on somewhere. So you know, you guys have deep, deep experience. I know personally and following Google and covering Google thie excellence and engineering the excellence in building on data centers. What is the status of just quickly Take a minute to explain how it's organized? Get Google proper, Which is where Ron knows Google, Google Search, etcetera, Gmail and Google Cloud. How's that? How's that operate? What's some of the data points? >> Okay, um so, as you know, the head of the teams that do everything from procuring land and writing energy contracts and buying renewable energy to designing, building and operating all the data centers. Cloud is one of my largest customers. But my other customers air search and ads and Gmail and G sweetened. So, really, our data centers I Google are built for the entire Google enterprise, and cloud happens to be one of our largest internal customers in that enterprise. >> How about some of stats countries, regions, data centers? What's the new one? Because you have regions, you availability zones. Talk about some of the stats inside the numbers >> s o what the starting at the Google level, we have data centers in four continents. So we're in North America South America, Asia and Europe. Of course, we have a probably one of the world's largest global private networks with, you know, thirteen undersea cables that are our own and hundreds of thousands of miles of dark fiber and lit fiber that way operate like I said, probably one of the world's largest networks we have in in Europe were in five countries in Europe, were in two countries in Asia. We're in one country in South America, and that's at the Google and North America. Of course, we have many, many, many sites across all of North America. That's it. The Google level now Cloud has nineteen regions that they operate in and fifty eight zones. So each region, of course, has multiple zones in it. You know, we we cover. Google has presence in over two hundred countries worldwide, so really, it is truly global operations. >> So the two hundred countries is Google wide nineteen cloud regions and fifty eight availability zones. That's Google Cloud. That's great. Okay, so do you not sort of mix infrastructure for cloud and things like Gmail and maps and search is that is that correct? This their separate infrastructures or >> it's It's not so separate infrastructure. So when when my team builds a data center, any one of our internal customers could be in that day this up. In addition to the Google owned and operated data centers, we also have some sites that are least in certain regions, and Cloud may be occupying those. But regardless of whether it's owned or leased, its the same hardware in there, it's the same operation staff that Aeryn they're the same expertise, the same deep knowledge about operating cloud environments. And so, regardless of whether we built it or we leased it >> from a CEO Syrian from a CEO's perspective, it's the same cell A nobody availabilities owners. I mean, that's what really matters, right? Okay, >> talk about the scale because one of the things I liked in the Kino Sundar is awesome. And Chris, Great keynote, You scale multiple times. He also had a clever comin around steal, she's said before publicly, amount of steel that goes into building this. This gives you guys large scale. Your guys are building on massive. It's like smart cities almost cause of your own like country, pretty much on the infrastructure. What are some of the key learning that you guys had because you have to be very efficient. Google likes to solve hard problems. You guys have done some things with sustainability. Specifically, talk about some of the learnings. As you guys have been building out these data centers for years with cloud on a massive expansion, you gotta watch the environment. You got to do some things. What if some of the learnings with some of the notable accomplishments you guys air forging on and what are some of the goals? >> So I googled we've been We've been at this for two decades. For more than twenty years we've been building and innovating on hyper efficiency, hyper scale, basically trying to build infrastructure that was more sustainable than had ever been thought possible. And then as our cloud business started to expand and boom, frankly, we set apart Teo build the world's most sustainable cloud. And really, what that means is that you know, we were the first company to announce that we were buying one hundred percent renewable energy, new renewable P P A's to match one hundred percent of our consumption and in twenty seventeen, we achieve that. That was after being carbon neutral for ten years before that. So going all the way back to two thousand seven were a carbon neutral company by mostly buying, buying high quality carbon offsets. Then we decided that no, we want to advance the transition, Teo renewable and sustainable energy. So we started buying direct power purchase agreements for wind and solar on DH. And then in twenty seventeen, we announced that we had matched one hundred percent. What that means is that we've acquired over three gigawatts of new solar and wind power purchase agreements, Mom. And now we're taking it a step further. We have a very ambitious kind of moonshot. Arguably, too, not only match our consumption, but match it twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three sixty five. So you can imagine the complexity with this because the wind doesn't always blow, the sun doesn't always shine. And so that's going to take moonshot thinking in order for us to get there. But we feel so strongly about it were so committed to this cause that we've got a dedicated team working on this right now. >> So it's not just squeezing tea. You'ii out of the data center I'm sure you're doing that, but absolutely doing >> that. Since the earliest days I've been at Google for over eleven years. From the very first day I got there, I was completely blown away with the numbers that I was seeing about the Peewee and for maybe your audience. Pee Wee's a measure of efficiency in the data center, and and at the time, like back two thousand eight, Cooper was achieving numbers that the EPA thought wouldn't be achieved until, like, twenty twenty. And so I started to dig in and look how, and it was astounding to me the lengths that the company had gone tio toe optimize every single step of the way from the high voltage transformers in our own dedicated substations. Excuse me that that are much more efficient than typical. You know, utility transformers all the way through, minimizing the number of transformations going from grid level like three hundred forty five thousand bolts down to server voltage level, minimising the number of transformations reinventing the way people think about cooling. When we when I got to Google, I was also amazed. Our data centers are running it like roughly about eighty degrees Fahrenheit most data centers run it like sixty five degrees are data centers consume about half of the energy of a traditional enterprise data center at the same size. And in addition to that, we're producing about seven times the computer capacity for the same amount of Watts that enterprise data >> centers comes from. A from a practice of engineering really purpose engineering from day one into the overall holistic plan of the building. >> It's a relentless focus on efficiency and innovation. Right from Day one, when I got there, it had already been well in motion, but it's optimizing across the entire stack. It's optimizing software to be efficient, optimizing the server architecture er, to be more efficient, optimizing the power supplies in the server's optimizing the racks. You know, designing the racks to be working with the cooling equipment, specifically, are cooling systems are unique to Google. There they're not traditional air conditioning units that you would buy for traditional data centers. Sometimes, you know, we'll sight data centers where we can use natural environment in Finland. Our data centers right on the Gulf of Finland, and we use cold seawater from the Gulf of Finland to cool the data center. >> So to be clear, you're doing quite a bit of vertical integration, whether it's your own transformers of power supplies and other equipment, right? Try >> fiberoptic across the K Atlantica, Sundar pointed out. That's what I was doing your own stuff, absolutely officious as you pass on in savings to the customers and society with the sustainability piece. That's right. You have two angles on that. >> Really, it's you know it's good business, of course, because the bottom line. But more importantly, it's also the right thing for us to do. We feel very strongly that we need to be responsible for our impact on the environment and to minimize that impact and to be accountable for it. And we realized that the only way we can truly be accountable for our impact on the environment and for our energy consumption is to have it matched with renewable energy twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, >> not take a side track you. But you know, we've been covering the tech business for many, many decades, and certainly recently tech kind of got a bad name headlines. But I always look for tech stories that you know there was a text bad for people. There's always a good story. I think this is an example of tech for good. You guys have taken real engineering, building large scale systems and facilities, have software running on it. It's really a tech for good story. Congratulations on that. That's awesome work. Now I want to kind of asked you put you on the spot here because I think one conversation we're hearing a lot and I want him Get your expert opinion on this could be Google and also a CZ a person in the industry. Security in the supply chain has come up a lot in terms of whether chips have been hacked. Wave heard things like that in the story. Some of them have proved to be misinformation. Fake news. But you gotta watch security. Google's really hard core on security because you you lived that. How do you look at the supply chain? Is if you're not just throwing contractors at this, you could thinking of a realistic ground zero engineering approach to a holistic picture. How do you guys manage security challenge in the supply chain? Throughout the facilities from chips Teo, access things of that nature. >> So there's two aspects. There's always the logical and the physical security aspect from the physical security aspect in our warehouses that we manage. Of course, we apply the same rigorous standards for physical security. That way, do it their data centers. And that's multi layer in various different types of security technologies that we apply. And but on the logical side, you know, I think you're probably familiar with our Titan chips that way developed and those tightened ships are put in all of our servers, and from the time that they're built to the time that they're in the facility, you know those those chips that's our are securing the servers and your logical side. Though the you know, my colleagues on our information security team are truly the experts that could address that. >> That's where the software shines. That's right, and this is not just one. It's not a silo. You gotta deal physical build. It's kind of a bigger is It's a holistic, any rated model >> it is, and this is, you know, from from the data center industry perspective for us. Long as there's been it, there's always been the debate between facilities and I t right. When I got to Google, I was also so relieved to see that was all technical infrastructure and the systems. The software that runs on those those data centers are all under the same technical infrastructure group. And so you know it all. The buck stops at *** >> For years, there was a discussion and generalize about those groups coming together, and I think the way they come together is the cloud. Frankly, because you haven't seen a lot of change within organizations of ight and facilities really working together, that's right. >> Well, Joe, thanks for coming on the Q. Thanks for sharing your insight. Final word. What's the thoughts folks watching out there who were trying to understand how to bring technology into facilities? In general, people still have data centers they still have on premise activity, from lightbulbs to whatever any, any learnings in parting wisdom. Folks watching there in the facilities and or physical building space on howto build out these, whether it's smart cities with its construction and experiences, you could share with folks out there looking to build a ballistic long term plan. >> Yeah, there's a there's a few things first of all, we've published all of our energy efficiency, best practices. And so I encourage everyone to take a look at those best practices because the best you know, energy savings is the energy not consumed in the first place. So do all the right things to reduce the overall energy consumption in the first place to we want to help further the transition to renewable energy. And so we've published a lot about our power purchase agreements and a lot of the policy work that enables us to do. Those is also set in place for other large energy consumers that want to do the same thing. So our policy work can help Teo allow others to do the same thing. The third part of our sustainability aspect is really a circular economy. You know, we want Teo. I have zero waste to a landfill. We've currently achieved ninety one percent diversion of all of our data center operations, so ninety one percent is diverted to landfill. But we have a objective of one hundred percent note note no waste to a landfill. And then that means you have to do smart things like better re use better recycling better reselling of products that are still good but maybe out of date for for your use and then just ended off. We've really invested in our machine learning and a intelligence both on the data center operations. We have now ml running our some of our cooling systems in fully autonomous mode and doing a much better job of matching the cooling needs to the workloads at the time. And we took that same learning with our deepmind group, partnered with them, and we've applied that Teo are a wind farm now as well, so that they can better predict what the output of wind farm is going to be thirty six hours in advance. That allows the operators of the grid to better bring on more more energy and get higher value Out of that that win dinner. >> Great engineering story at scale. Congratulations. Love the societal impact tech for good. Congratulations. Love to have you back talk about the impact of a i ot Joe, Thanks for coming on the Yeah, it's all coming together with our arms. Jean. A center is not going away. House in the cloud needs to run on servers and has to be done in a engine engineered fashion. Google's leading the charge there. It's Cube Live coverage day, one of three days of coverage will be right back after this short break.

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Run. Welcome to the Cube here, live in San Francisco on Mosconi South were on the floor at Google. Next twenty nineteen. Hashtag Google Next nineteen. I'm John for my co host this week for three days and wall to wall coverage of Google's cloud conference is with Dave. Alonso Has too many men. Guys day one of three days of wall to wall coverage. We got Thomas Curry in the new CEO on the job for ten weeks. Took the realm from Diane Green. Thirty five thousand attendees. It's packed. It's definitely a developer crowd. It feels a lot like a WS, not a corporate show like Microsoft or IBM or others or Oracle. It's really more about developers. We just heard the Kino. Google's making some moves. The new CEO is gonna put on a show. He saw two customers you see in the positioning. Soon DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google, came out really kind of. Ah, interesting keynote Feels like Thomas's that's gonna shake that Oracle off, but he's guns blaring. Some new announcements. Guys, let's do a round upon the keynote. >> Yeah. So, John, as you said, a great energy here that this place is bustling sitting here where we are, we could see everybody is going through the Expo Hall. As you said. Is Google serious about this? This whole cloud activity? Absolutely. There's no better way than to have your CEO up. There we go, The Amazon show. You don't see Jeff Bezos there into the Microsoft shows? You know, you don't usually see you know their CEO. There you have the Cloud Group does the cloud thing, but absolutely. Cloud is a critical piece of what Google is doing. And it's interesting because I actually didn't feel as geeky and his developer focused as I would expect to see at a Google show. Maybe they've heard that feedback for years that, you know, Google makes great stuff, but they're too smart in there, too geeky When you go to the Amazon show, they're announcing all of the different, you know, puting storage pieces and everybody's hooting and hollering. Here it was a little bit more business. It was high level. They had all these partners out on stage and customers out on stage. Many of them, you know, you talk about retail and health care and all these other ones where you say, Okay, Amazons, a major competitor there. So, you know, can Google stake their claim as to how they're going to move up from the number three position and gain more market share? You know, as they fit into the multi cloud, which we know we're going to spend a lot of time on, wears their position in this cloud space today. >> What your thoughts. >> Well, first of all, there's a big show. I mean, it's we're here at IBM thick in February. This feels like a much, much larger event, Number one Stew said. It's really much more developer heavy, I think. John, there's no question people don't question Googles Global Cloud Presence. Soon Dar talked about two hundred countries, ninety cloud regions fifty eight plus two new data centers. So no question there. But there are questions as to whether or not Google could move beyond search and maps and Gmail and really be a big cloud player for Enterprise Cloud that really is to the elephant in the room. Can Google innovate and attractive CEOs? They showed a number of customers, not nearly, of course, as many as what Amazon or even Microsoft would show. They're talking about ecosystem. To me, that ecosystem slide. It's got a cord truthful this year to really show some progress. But you've got new leadership as we talked about last year, John and love to get your thoughts on this. Google's playing the long game. They've got the best tech and you know they've got great data. Great. Aye, aye. I want to take >> into the new rebranding of the Google Cloud platform, which is now called Antos, which is a Greek word for flour. We kind of had visibility into This would kind of start coming. But before we get into that, I want to just kind of point out something that we've reported on looking angle, some that we've been saying on Twitter on DH about Diane Greene. It's been reported that she was fired from Google for missing on red hat. All these rumors, but interesting Thomas Koreans first words, a CEO on stage. It was a direct shout out to Diane Greene. I think this validates our reporting and our analysis that Diane Green absolutely helped hire curry and work with the boy workers Sundar And essentially, because she was the architect of rebuilding Google Clouds Enterprise chops the team there that she recruited we've been following and covering. Diane Green built that foundation. She passed the torch. Thomas Curry. This was not a Diane Green firing, so I think I think Thomas Carrion nice gesture on Diane Green kind of sets the table and validates and preserves her legacy as the rebuilder re architect of Google Cloud. >> Pretty interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think this where there's some smoke, there's fire that don't think Diana Corning court fired. I think you know that she was under a lot of pressure. She was here for seven years. I think they probably felt like Okay, now it's time to really bring somebody in. Who wants to take this to the next level? And I'll die unnecessarily had the stomach for that >> John Really great points there. But it does talk about you know what is the culture of Google? You know, the elephant The room is what is Google? Google makes you know most of their money on advertising. That's not what Google Cloud is. It doesn't fit into the additional model. You know, Google's culture is not geared for the enterprise. As you know that the critique on Google for years has been We make really great stuff and you need to be Google E. And you need to do things the way we do Thomas Koreans out there. We need to meet customers where they are today. That's very much what we hear in the Enterprise. That that's what you hear. You know when you talk about Amazon or Microsoft, they're listening to their customers. They're meeting them at their business applications there, helping them build new environment. So, you know, will Google be a little less googly on DH? Therefore, you know, meet customers and help work them, and that leads to the multi clouding the anthros discussed. >> We heard a lot about that today. I mean, John, you've pointed out many, many times that Cooper Netease is the linchpin to Google strategy. It's really you know, that was the kind of like a Hail Mary relative Tae Ws and that's what we heard today. Multi cloud, multi cloud, multi cloud, where is with a W s. And certainly to a lesser extent, Oracle. It's Unit Cloud Multi Cloud is more expensive is what they tell us. Multi cloud is less secure. A multi cloud is more complex. Google's messaging is exactly the opposite of >> that. So, Dave, just to poke it that a little bit, is great to see Sanjay *** Inn up on stage with VM wear. But where we last cvm were to cloud show. It's an Amazon. They've got a deep partnership here. Cooper Netease is not a differentiator for Google. Everybody's doing it. Even Amazon is being, you know, forced to be involved in it. Cisco was up on stage. This guy's got a deep partnership with Amazon and a ks. So you know, Cooper Netease is not a magic layers. Good job, Ada said on the Cube. Q. Khan. It is something that you know Google, that management layer and how I live in a multi cloud environment. Yes, Google might be further along with multi cloud messaging, then say Amazon is, But you know, Amazons, the leader in this space and everybody that has multiple clouds, Amazons, one of them, even the keynote >> This morning aboard Air Force right eight, I was forced into Cooper days you're not CNW s run demos that show, you know, a target of the Google clouded the Microsoft. You saw that today from Google >> while we see how the Amazon demos with our oracle. But that's the result. Let's let's hold off on the partisan saying, Let's go through the Kino So the Diane Green comment also AOL came out. Who runs VP of Engineer. He's the architect. One. This Antos product. Last year, they announced on G. C. P s basically a hybrid solution G a general availability of Antos, which has security built in out of the box. Multi cloud security integrated for continues integration, confused development, CCD pipeline ing very key news and that was really interesting. This is such a their new platform that they've rebranded called Antos. This is a way for them to essentially start posturing from just hybrid to multi cloud. This is the shift of of Google. They want to be the on premise cloud solution and on any cloud, your thoughts. >> You know, the demo said it all. The ability to take V m movement two containers and move them anywhere right once and move anywhere and that, I think, is is the key differentiator right now. Relative to certainly eight of us. Lesser extent Microsoft, IBM right there with red hat. That's to me The interesting angle >> Here. Look, Google has a strong history with Ken Containers. If you if you scroll back to the early days of doctor twenty fourteen, twenty, fifty, Google's out there as to how many you know, it just so many containers that they're building up and tearing down. However you go to the Microsoft. So you go to the Amazon show. We're starting to talk a lot more about server list. We're gonna have the product lead for surveillance on today. I'm excited to dig into that because on a little bit concerned that Google is so deep in the containers and how you Burnett eases, they're looking for, like a native to connect the pieces, but that they are a little bit behind in some of the next generation architectures built on journalists for death. >> I want to make a point here if you're not the leader in cloud which, you know in Enterprise Cloud, which Google is not, you know, IBM is not or, you know, Oracle is not okay, fine, but if you don't have a cloud like Cisco or Dell or VM, where you have to go after multi cloud. Amazon's not in a rush to go after multi cloud. There's no reason down the road. Amazon can't go after that opportunity. To the extent that it's a real tam, it's There's a long way to go. Talk about early innings were like having started the game of Outpost >> hasn't even been spect out. Yes, sir, there has not been relieved. So we're seeing what Amazon's got knowing they are the clouds. So they're the incumbent. Interesting enough on Jennifer Lin. You mention the demo. Jennifer Lin Cube alumni. We gonna interview her later. She introduced on those migrate Kind of reminds me of some of the best shows we have the migration tools and that migrates work clothes from PM wears into containers running in containers. As you mentioned. A. This is an end and no modified co changes. That's a big deal, >> John. Exactly on Twitter, people are going. Is this the next emotion? You know, those of us who've been in the industry while remember how powerful that was able to seamlessly migrate? You know, the EMS and containers at, You know, I shouldn't have to think about Colin building it where it lives. That was the promise of has for all those years and absolutely things like uber Netease what Google's doing, chipping away at that. They're partnering with Cisco, there partner with pivotal parting with lots of companies so that that portability of code isa lot of >> Master Jack is a cloud of emotion. I mean, we know what the motion did in the Enterprise. >> To me, that's the star. The keynote is actually the rebranding associate positioning thing. But the star of the show is the Jennifer Lin demo, because if anthems migrate actually works, that's going to tell. Sign to me on how fast Google can take territory now. What's interesting also with the announcements, was, I want to get you guys thoughts on this because we cover ecosystems, we cover how Cloud and Enterprise have been pardoning over the years. Enterprise is not that easy. Google has found out the hard way Microsoft is done really well. They've installed base. Google had stand this up from the beginning again. Diane Greene did a great job, but now it's hard. It's a hard nut to crack. So you see Cisco on stage. Cisco has huge enterprise. Cloud the em Where comes on stage? David Gettler Gettler, the VP of engineering of Cisco, one of their top executives on stage. And he has Sanjay *** and keep alumni came on. Sanjay had more time. Francisco. So you have two companies who kind of compete? NSX. We have suffered a fine Cisco both on stage. Cisco, absolutely integrating into We covered on silicon angle dot com just posted it live where Cisco is actually laying down their container platform and integrating directly into Google's container platform to offer a program ability End to end. I think that's something that didn't get teased out on the keynotes doing, because this allows for Google to quickly move into the enterprise and offer true program ability of infrastructure. This is the nirvana of infrastructure is code. This is what Dev Ops has been waiting for. Still your thoughts on this because this could be a game changer. Hydro, what's an A C I. This could put pressure on VM, where with the containers running in platform and the Cisco relationship your thoughts. >> So John Cisco has a broad portfolio. When you talk about multi cloud, it's not just the networking components, it's the eyes, absolutely apiece. But that multi cloud management, uh, is a layer that Cisco has, you know, been adding two and working on for a lot of years, and they've got very key partnerships. So making sure, you know, seeing right seeing David vehicular onstage here. Proof, Cisco, lot of enterprise customers him where, Of course, six hundred thousand customers. They're So Google wants to get into these accounts. You look at, you know, Microsoft strength of their enterprise agreements that they have. So how will Google get into some of these big accounts? Get into the procurement, get into the environment? And there's lots of different methods and partnerships We said our credit >> David vehicular undersold the opportunity here. I mean, when it comes to he did at working Inter Cloud. Sisko is in the poll possession position to basically say we got the best network, the highest performance networks, the most secure networks, and we're in a position to connect all these clouds. And to me, that didn't come out today. So when you think about multi cloud, each of these companies is coming at it from a position of strength. Cisco. Very clearly dominant networking VM wear in virtual ization and I think that came through. And Sanjay *** ins, you know, keynote. I think again Gettler undersold it, but it's a great opportunity for Cisco and Google. >> Well, I think Google has a huge opportunity. It Cisco because if they have a go to market joint sales together, that could really catapult Google sails again. If I get really was kind of copy, we're we're Cisco. But Cisco look, a bm was on stage with them. I thought that was going to be a Hail Mary for for Sisko to kind of have bring that back. But then watching Sanjay Putin come on saying, Hey, we're okay, it's going to be a V m World And Pat Kelsey has been on the record saying, Coo Burnett eases the dial tone of the Internet stew. This is an interesting matchup between Cisco and BM, where your thoughts >> Yeah, so so right. There's so many pieces here, a cz to where their play way. No, there's competitive competition and, you know, partnerships. In a lot of these environments, Google actually has a long history of partnering. You know, I can't even think how many years ago, the Google and GM or Partnership and Cisco. If I can't actually, Dave, there's There's something I know you've got a strong viewpoint on. You know, Thomas Kurian left Oracle and it was before he had this job. Every he says, you know, is T. K going to come in here and bring, you know, oracles, you know, sales methodology into Google. You know, What does he bring? What's his skill set on? You know >> what exact community? I think it's the opposite, right? I think that's why you left Oracle because he didn't want every database to run in the Oracle, Cloudy realised is a huge opportunity out there. I think the messaging that I heard today is again it's completely I saw something on Twitter like, Oh, this is just like organ. It's nothing like Oracle. It's the It's the polar opposite opposite of what Oracle is doing. >> I think I think curry and can really define his career. This could be a nice swan song for him. As he takes Google with Diane Greene did builds it out, does the right deals if he can build on ecosystem and bring the tech chops in with a clear go to market. He's not going to hire the salespeople and the SCS fast enough. In my opinion, that's gonna be a really slow boat. Teo promised land. He's got to do some deals. He's gotta put Some Corp Devin Place has gotta make some acquisitions will be very in the sin. DARPA Kai, the CEO, said. We are investing heavily in cloud. If I'm Amazon, I'm worried about Google. I think they are dark horse. They have a lot of they have a clean sheet of paper. Microsoft, although has legacy install base. Google's got, I think, a lot more powder, if you will. Dave, >> what One little sign? I agree without John, I think you're absolutely right. The clean sheet of paper and deep pockets, you know, and the long game in the great tech. Uh, you have a son should be worried about Google. One little side note, it's still you. And I talked about this. Did you hear? Uh uh, Thomas asked Sanjay Putin about Dell, Dell Technologies, and Sunday is an executive. Dell was talking about the whole Del Technologies portfolio. I thought it was a very interesting nuance that we had previously seen from VM wear when they were owned by himself. >> Dave, you know, we see Delon Veum where are almost the same company these days that they're working together? But John, as you said, I actually like that. You know, we didn't have some big announcement today on an acquisition. Thomas Kurian says. He's got a big pocket book. He's going to be inquisitive, and it'LL be interesting to see, do they? By some company that has a big enterprise sales force. It can't just be old legacy sales trying to go into the cloud market. That won't work, but absolutely the lot of opportunities for them to go out. They didn't get get, huh? They didn't get red hat. So who will? Google Page? You >> guys are right on man. Sales Force is still a big question mark, And how can they hire that fast? That's a >> And again, he's only been on the job for ten weeks. I think is going to get his sea legs. I think it's him. He's going to come in. He's gonna ingratiating with culture. It'Ll be a quick decision. I think Google culture will accept or reject Thomas Curry and based upon his first year in operations, he's going to get into the team, and I think the Wall Street Journal kind of comment on that. Will he bring that Oracle? I thought that was kind of not a fair assessment, but I think he's got the engineering chops toe hang with Google. He kind of gets the enterprise mark one hundred percent been there, done that. So I think he's got a good shot. I think you could make the right moves. Of course we're here making the moves on the Cube here live for day, one of three days of wall to wall coverage. I'm sorry, David. Lock These two minute men here in Google, next in Mosconi in San Francisco Live will be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> [Narrator] From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Radio 2018. Brought to you by VMware. (upbeat techno music) >> Welcome back everyone. We're here with theCUBE in San Francisco for exclusive coverage for VMware's Radio 2018. I'm John Furrier, your host. This is the event where everyone comes together in the R&D and the organic engineering organization of VMware to flex their technical muscles, stretch their minds, compete for the papers, and also get to know each other. And the key person behind this is the chief research officer David Tennenhouse. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thank you John. Really glad to be here. >> So you're the chief research officer. You got to look at the company-wide agenda. But this event is more of a special event, organically. Talk about for the folks out there watching what's different about this event that goes outside the scope of kind of the top-down research. >> Yeah this is really, you know, for the developers by the developers. So when you said I'm in charge, I'm definitely not in charge. And you know, we have a program committee. There's a programming committee chair. It's much like the way an academic conference might be organized, where you know, there's kind of a group of academics that sort of watch over the content. In this case, we have many hundreds of folks that submit proposals into radio. They can't all get selected. It's very competitive because in addition, if you get accepted, you get a ticket to radio. You get to attend. So everybody really wants to do that. >> Talk about the organic nature. 'Cause this is one of the things that I've seen that's been part of a world-class organization. Like Amazon has their own process for it called the big idea. They have certain working documents that process to foster any idea across the organization. How important is that as part of Radio? I mean literally it's anyone right? >> Well it's not just Radio. It's important to the whole company. So I think of this as when you're working on innovation, you're gonna have sort of a breadth component. You want everybody doing a little. And some of that's gonna be incremental. One thing I learned in a prior role at a different company is you know if you add up a lot of two percenters, that's how you can double things and keep on Moore's law every year. So you're gonna get some of that. And you're gonna get some really disruptive ideas. So you know, from a top-down point of view, we try to drive some disruptions. Some disruptions show up organically from the troops. And a ton of that breadth stuff shows up. >> I'm honored to be here. It's the 14th year, and some T-shirts commemorating the key milestones from way back in the day. This is the first year press was allowed in. I noticed a handful of folks came in to kind of document this. A lot of the brightest minds in VMware here. Again, great to have us. We're super excited. But share with us. Like, what's happened over the years. Give some examples of where people were coming together, where there's a collision of ideas, and just that combustion that happens. Can you share some stories around key notable, or potentially as Raghu pointed out, there's been some misses too. (laughing) >> Yeah, you're gonna get some of that. I mean you've gotta take risks. Not everything's gonna work. You know and just to speak to misses. What I've learned in the innovation and research space is as much as anything, it's about timing. It's pretty rare that you completely technically miss. Usually engineers have an idea. They'll figure out a way to make it happen. Then the question is, is it the right time? Are the customers ready? Is the market ready to go in that direction? So, that's just to talk to that. >> Timing's everything. >> Timing is a big deal. >> Well there's never a miss too in R&D because if you, like Pat Yelson said, understand when it's gotta be re-casted. Know if it works or not. >> Yeah just understanding. So those are the ones actually you know I feel, what I really hate is if for some reason we have to end a project and we haven't actually gotten to the bottom of it. And so you don't know yes or no. And sometimes that can be the kind of time's run out, right. You've decided well, even if it works, it's too late. But you know, getting back to some of the examples, I'll focus on some more recent ones. We had some really interesting work come together on containers. And there were some folks that, and this is going back like four years ago. Containers aren't a new story, and certainly not for VMware. But around four years ago, there was a proposal at Radio that had to do with hey let's make containers a first class citizen on VMware's platform. Okay, so top level that makes great sense. Let's go do it. Containers are great for developers. The IT folks still want the isolation they get form VMs. Let's put these together really effectively. So that was top level. There was a next level, the idea that said gee at Radio, a couple years before, there'd been this idea of being able to do something called VM fork, or being able to clone a VM. And saying you know... And this came out of our end user computing group, the VDI folks. And if you think about it, if you've got a virtualized PC, you want to be able to clone that so you can start these up really fast. And the container folks said hey, we've got the same problem. Could we actually try to make use of that technology and use that as part of our bigger container push? So you know, those are examples of things that came together at Radio. And there are also examples of things where the market timing may not have quite been there. So we went out with the container work. That was actually post-Radio. It was funded. We incubated it. You've got vSphere Integrated Containers hit the market exactly the right time. >> Timing right there. >> Right, timing right there. But what we learned as we actually started doing trials with customers was that they didn't actually need the instant clone on the containers. What they needed is throughput. They wanted to know that they could do large numbers per second as opposed to you'll get that container really quickly. So as the team went along, they actually shifted away from that fork idea. We'll probably come back to it when the time's right for it. >> Well you have a nice little positioning there. I like the timing. 'Cause by the way, entrepreneurial timing is the same way. You go outside... >> I was a VC. (laughing) >> Okay, so you know okay. Timing's everything. How many times you seen that entrepreneur wicked early on it going... And they keep scratching that itch and finally they get it. The art of the timing. But also the art of knowing when to, what to keep in inventory. Pat mentioned vCloud Air as an interesting example. Recognizing abandonment there. Okay hey, let's just stop, take pause. Let's use what we have. >> Do something else. >> Do something else. >> Gotta do something else. And by the way along the way, in parallel with vCloud Air, we had built up these vCloud partners. And that's phenomenal right. So we have you know, people think in terms of a couple of very large public clouds. But we've got literally thousands of people running public clouds in either specialized markets, or particular countries, that are running on our platform. And you know that whole vCloud Air effort helped push that forward. >> So where were you a VC? Just curious. >> I was actually in a company that fits with sort of my role in research and innovation. I was in a specialized firm, boutique firm, new venture partners, that specialized in spin outs from large companies. This goes to the timing, right. I'd previously been at another large company. You know, and whenever you have a research portfolio, you're gonna have some projects that you started. They were technically successful. That's your first notch. Then you go look and say hey, can I find a business model for it. Some of these are both technically successful. You find a business model, but you had anticipated that the company strategically was gonna zig. The company zagged. Now this is a great opportunity that doesn't quite fit. So you know, we did those as spin outs. >> Well I love the perspective too of you said earlier, David, around not getting to the bottom of it. And that's the most frustrating part. Because you just gotta get some closure you know. Like okay, this thing, we took it to the end, completion, this is not gonna... Good try guys. >> And we know why. >> And you know why. Now let's take it to the next level. Now the market we're living in now I heard with Ray O'Farrell, I was talking with earlier. We talked about the confluence of these big markets coming together. Infrastructure market, which is kinda declining on paper. But cloud is filling the void. Big data's becoming AI, and blockchain over the top. These are four major markets. And at the center of them, intersecting all these nuances, security, data, IoT. >> Governance. >> Governance. So there's some sticky areas that are evolving based upon these moving markets. Opportunity recognition's another one. So this is what you're kind of doing now with the research. Talk about opportunity recognition. >> We definitely do that. And I do want to say on the infrastructure side, you know something to recall is that as people, you know they've got their private clouds. Those are individually getting actually bigger as they consolidate. But now with IoT, you're seeing edge computing pop up. Right, so the private infrastructure doesn't go away, it moves around. It's like a liquid. And you pour it from place to place in some sense. >> Moving computer around. Sound like what Ray O'Farrell was talking about in his keynote, early days of VMware. Again, Compute's the center of this. >> Right, Compute, but you know I'm a networking guy so you know, we've grown that. And I think that in fact, you know more and more as we make progress with software defined network, and network virtualization. And if you think about that, so you know let's look at that. So Compute's definitely at the center of what happens in the data center, in the cloud, right. You're gonna want to be able to string those piece together. So today we've got AirWatch. I think that's strategically really key. Because it gives us a little bit of presence on the edge devices that touch people. That's one of the ways information gets from the physical world to the virtual world is through people. >> It's an edge device. People are things too. >> IoT, right. So we're you know, working hard. And that's one of the projects that we incubated, and researched, and is now become a business at Vmware. It's to get that presence right at the edge of the gateways that bridge between the things that are connected to the physical world, and bringing it into the virtual world. Now if we can put our software defined network between all that, so you got it between the public cloud, the private cloud, the mobile devices in people's hands. >> And on premise, data center. >> Exactly, all of 'em. >> All right, so here's a question for you. This is one of those trick questions. Is the cell phone an edge device or an IoT device? >> Well I think it's in many ways both. And what I think of it is is more of a gateway. If you think about the IoT world, you have the things. >> IoT is a strict definition though in your mind, right. People refer to IoT as more of a sensor thing to a physical device. >> I tend to think of it as it's got some connection to some physical device. It's able to bring information in from the physical world. Okay, so now you look at your cell phone. It can bring information. It's got that microphone. It's got that camera, right. It can bring information in. >> [John] Connect it to a physical person. >> It can put information back out. Yeah, through a physical person. I've been in the space for a long time. Going back to my time at DARPA, we set out to create the IoT world. This wasn't an accident, right. We looked at this and said, okay the main way information gets between these two worlds today is through human beings. The way I used to explain this to the generals is you know, we can't keep putting human beings in the direct line of fire of information technology. So we've gotta get these devices, gotta get all these sensors. It's taken a long time. This is you know again, timing. But if you look at the research world. >> By the way, incredible work you've done by the way from there to here, it's been amazing. >> You know pull this along. But you know so when you look at that cell phone, it's got some of those sensors. It's got actually a whole pile of sensors in the phones today. It's got actuation, the ability to put the information back out. It's also a gateway. Because typically you know, particularly through its Bluetooth functionality, and as we get Bluetooth low power now. So it's also acting as a gateway to connect up other devices around your body, network etc. >> Personal networking, whatever comes on your physical presence. >> So you know, turn that around and it says in the IoT world, we've gotta manage gateways. We've gotta make sure gateways stay secure. Because they're really gonna be the sort of main perimeter, the line of defense. If you think about all these things that are gonna be out there, as an industry, we're gonna collectively try very hard to secure all those things. But let's be realistic. They're gonna be supplied from a wide variety of companies, and they're gonna last longer than people might think. >> How much of those devices are operationally, operation technology is non IP, versus not IP. Internet Protocol. >> Non Internet Protocol. Yeah, yeah. >> Internet Protocol now. >> [David] Non Internet, you had it right. >> Got the VC in the brain there. The VC, IP, I'm like get that IP right. So internet protocol devices, which has some challenges but that's getting fixed, versus OT just sensors proprietary. >> Yeah well either proprietary or let's say, you know it may be an industry standard, but an industrial standard. So today, a very large fraction, particularly you asked about how we focused at Vmware. Well one of our foci is we're about what are our enterprise customers gonna need. So when we think IoT, we're not really thinking that much about the consumer devices. We're thinking about those enterprise devices. So a lot of those will use... >> That's where AirWatch might come in. So employees still have phones though. >> Employees still have phones. So that's why I said, so there's the human interface. We want to be there. And there's the other enterprise interfaces to all these sensors. That could be in a factory. It could be in a smart city, any number of places. So as we pull information in from those, we're gonna find that they come from a lot of different suppliers and they're gonna last a long time. You know, even if you buy a device that's got a three to four year lifetime, probably 10 to 20% of those still gonna be around 10 years later, right. You're smiling because you know that in your home you have some wifi connected devices that are a little older than they probably should be. >> And they have full processing capability threaded processes on it, which could be running malware as we speak. >> So as I said, as an industry, we'll try to secure those really edge things. But the reality is we're gonna have to draw the line at the gateway. >> It's a lot more security work. I totally hear you. I mean the light bulb could have a full thread on there. The surface area is so huge now. >> And there have been attacks on light bulbs. >> Yeah I know. So I gotta ask you a question. 'Cause you bring up this networking edge, which by the way I love anything that's network. 'Cause I think this is the future of work. How is the future of work impacting some of the R&D you're doing. Because you talked about AirWatch them having more mobility. The human impact, society, whether it's mission driven and or just human collaboration going digital. You're gonna need to have policies. You need to have a networked society. This is super relevant. But it brings back that future work. >> It does. And so couple different aspects. You know, one you know, which just relates to a point you raised is if you look at something like our Workspace ONE product, if you've had a chance to do that. It's kind of a win win, because you get one portal. So you know, an employee for an enterprise, they've got one portal. They get access, it doesn't matter whether they're getting to a web app, they're getting to a you know, a DVI supported application. They're getting to something that's on a server, something on a SAS player, right. They get through that portal. So for them it's convenient. I mean for me as a manager, I love this, right. Because whether I'm on my cell phone, I'm on a laptop, doesn't matter, I can get to the same expense app. I can approve things. >> You don't need to carry two phones. My work phone and my... >> And I can do all these approvals really easily, right. So I also don't worry. I don't see the difference between which device I'm on. At the same time that you're delivering that convenience to the user, you're delivering governance because the IT team can be deciding how that portal's populated, how things are connected, right, and how the wiring works. All the authorization, you've got a common identification system and all of that. So that's kind of very specific to you know, let's say near term changing the user interface. In terms of the broader future of work, clearly machine learning is the big story here, right. And I think that what we're gonna see is, particularly again in enterprise, more and more need for data analysts to be able to look at the big data. We're gonna see sort of more and more use of machine-learning technologies. It's gonna you know basically creep in everywhere. And we're getting this at just the right time. So if you want to think about future work in the big national and international scale, what you really sort of stop to look at is say, gee, okay, these machines are gonna do all this work. What about the people? And you know a lot of people therefore get concerned. Gee, the computers are gonna take away all the jobs. Right, you get these sound bytes. >> I think right now we're worried about fake news and real content. (laughing) >> Well let's come back to that one later. But there is a sense of gee, you know, the computers will take on all the jobs. And you know what I think people are not doing carefully is looking at the demographics. Because if you look at basically all the developed economies for practical purposes, we actually have a demographic problem. Our problem is actually not a surplus of workers. It's gonna be a shortage of workers. In fact, actually in the US right now, you're starting to feel this. Now that's at the peak of the economic cycle. So of course you feel it, you know, a bit. >> They need trained workers too. Also people who qualify. >> Right. So I think the thing we really need to look at is how do we do a much better job at matching, you know, sort of workers, both folks coming into the workplace, people with existing skills, to available opportunities. Because actually we're gonna have a shortage of workers. And it's not just sort of the US and Europe. I mean China, Japan. Well Japan for a long time. China, headed to a shortage of workers. I was out in Singapore not too long ago and was surprised to find out not just that they're concerned. But they went and looked at the Southeast Asian countries around them that are their markets. They're looking at a shortage of workers. So you know, if we didn't have something like machine-learning and AI coming along, we'd be sitting there saying, how are we gonna keep our economies growing? >> We need augmentation for sure. >> We need this augmentation. And it's coming at just, you know, you talked about timing. You know, it's coming at just the right time. Now, there definitely are gonna be some tough transitions along the way, right. So we definitely, you know, for example, as autonomous vehicles come along, we've gotta figure out, okay, all those people that are driving vehicles, what are they gonna do going forward? But let's not kid ourselves too, you know. If you've got trucks moving around with high-value cargoes, you're not gonna leave those unattended, right. We're gonna have to figure all this out. So there's gonna be a lot of interesting opportunities. >> What's your take on blockchain? Well first of all, GDPR, real quick. Train wreck, useful? >> I think it's you know, if you backed up and asked me four or five years ago, I'd have said train wreck. And largely because we still don't have the sort of kind of international consensus on what the rules should be. >> But you mentioned governance earlier. That certainly needs to be at the center of the action. >> Right, but you know, if we take a look now, it seems like it's showing up at just the right time, right. You know, in that sense. I think part of what's happened is over the intervening years, a lot of countries outside of Europe, because they realize these regulations would apply to them, they've worked with European regulators to help the regulators understand the technology, you know, help the companies understand. >> That's a good politically correct answer. I'll just say I think it's a shit-show personally. But you know. I mean it's gonna force people... It's like Y2K in money making, but Y2 never happened. It's forcing people to really, I think the value of GDPR is the big companies are gonna get hit hard on some suits. Just the trolling thing bothers me. Just the trolls that come out of the woodwork. But I think the positive that puts the center of the value proposition, making data, not a one off, like backup and recovery. It has to be core to technical operations. >> And making privacy something that's really in that first class category. You know, as I said. >> Great first step, but... There's a big but. >> There is more to be done. >> Hopefully they don't go after us little guys. All right, final question, blockchain. We are super excited about blockchain. You have teams working on this. >> [David] I am super excited about blockchain. >> Talk about your view on blockchain. Why are you excited about it? Obviously we feel it's very efficient, makes inefficiencies efficient across all industries. Your thoughts. >> Okay so again, we look at things through this prism. What are enterprise customers gonna be looking at? What do they want? And you know, so we're not you know... I think you're in the same place. We're not looking at the crypto currencies, right. That's not the thing. And in fact, we're not even looking at cohabiting on the Bitcoin blockchain. Because do you really want to run your business in the same place that a whole bunch of other people are running illegal businesses and the whole thing. >> And by the way, there's some technical issues. (laughing) >> We'll get to that. We're gonna get there. But just even as a starting point. So we pretty quickly looking even you know, three, four years ago said, okay enterprise is not gonna want to go that way. But this idea of a federated ledger, right. So if you can make federated ledgers and we can have reusable technology, that means now, if I want to federate with other companies or other organizations, or you know, or you need companies federating with governments, or governments federating with each other. Anywhere you want to pull together essentially a club for the exchange of data, with a persistent record of what happened, you've now got a common way of doing it, right. Or we can drive towards that. You know there'll be a standardization process to get there. But so it's not to me, federated ledgers means lowering the barrier to federation. And I think that's pretty exciting. Whole bunch of places. You know, supply chain, clearly one. Financial technology, but... >> David, we gotta spend some time, have you come in the studio. I'd love to explore some of these great topics with you. But I gotta ask you one final question. You know, with your history going back to ARPA, D-ARPA days, and looking at really the beginning of the information super highway, IP, connecting some universities together, to today, the waves that have gone through. We've talked about standards. The OSI stack, you had all these grandiose standard plans. Not all of them have happened exactly as planned. But defacto standards play a really important role. It galvanizes community, gives people guiding principles, a north star, whatever metaphor you want to use. The key is the enabling disrupting technologies, a defacto standard. What's happening now in your mind that you see out there that's starting to emerge as defacto? 'Cause certainly there's a lot of standard things going, open sources for tier one citizen growing, rapidly, which is greatness. Cloud is booming, unlimited resources, Compute, fingertip compute... All this is good. >> Yeah. >> All these new standards, I got Kubernetes, I got this going on, what's emerging? >> Well again, they're defacto, right. Kubernetes is an interesting example of basically open source meets defacto. And that's pretty exciting right. I mean, we're excited about it. I think people are often surprised we're a fan of open source. And I guess really, I just like to sort of back up a notch. Because you know what you touched on is defacto standards, whether it's open source or not, have suddenly become a lot easier. When I say suddenly, over like a 10 year period. And I think what's going on there is this is part of the change to software. So you know, if you're talking about hardware, and you got screws, you know, and you got threads, these physical things have to match, and they have to match exactly, right. Say when you travel overseas, you need to carry converters, physical converters to convert from one thing to another. So if you want to interoperate, if you and I want to have stuff that interoperates, we needed to build like either, do the same thing, or have a physical adapter. There was a cost to not having a standard. If you think about in the software world, we can build software converters, right. So if I've got you know, say we've got two, or three, or four, or even 50 defacto standards in the software world. You know, blockchain. So there's 50 new things. Everybody launches their own. Pretty quickly, the market will drive that down to a small number. And then you can put software converters in place. So we no longer actually have to get to one. >> [John] That's the software economic model. >> It's a big change. >> And that is huge. So by the way, we had Dirk Hohndel on at CubeCon. Love his open source mission, just a shout out to you guys, doing a great job. You guys at VMware certainly that we know, love you over on the East Coast. Final prediction. Final question. Give us a prediction. >> Give you a prediction. >> 2018, second half of the year, what's gonna happen? What's gonna be a notable thing that you see out on the horizon that might happen in the marketplace that might be notable for people to stand up and pay attention to? >> I think we're gonna see some significant developments in the blockchain space. And it's gonna be in the category of people starting to announce real deployments. And you know, if you're sort of looking at that time frame, you know you've had a lot of different enterprises try things. We've had people kind of dabble at things. I think you're gonna start seeing some people really move significantly in that space. >> And do you think like, just to follow up on that, do you think like in the database world now, where by the way, it's okay to have a zillion databases now. 'Cause you talk about databases. >> But it consolidated down to a few players. >> You get some extraction layers. It's okay to have a few variety of blockchains. I mean, there's no one blockchain. >> Correct, so that's where I think as I said, you're gonna see actually a bunch of these deployments. They'll be using different technologies. And then the fun really starts right. As people consolidate, especially with open source, they swap ideas. We boil it down to what's the best of the best. We've got you know, stuff we're doing certainly to knock the throughput down, sorry throughput up, latency down. (John laughing) And you know, we think we've got a very scalable approach. And most important, you know something that's really... I don't know if you talked to people about our sustainability. You know, it's a key value for VMware. >> [John] Yeah, lot of great standards there, yeah. >> So you can imagine we looked at blockchain. We looked at proof of work. And we said that's proof of energy wasted. We're not going there. >> Gotta make it more efficient. >> I think you're gonna see more and more folks focusing on things like Byzantine fault tolerant. Ours is scalable. You know SBFT. >> Yeah performance is key. And the energy's a huge problem. >> But performance and at acceptable energy. You can't you know, just waste. It's immoral to just waste energy. And it really goes against what a lot of the whole IT industry's built up. You know, I think we've, over the decades, we've done a lot of things for the good of society. And we gotta stay the mission. >> I think as the more, I won't say mature, but big world-class organizations join in, I think that'll straighten itself out. And certainly, as any evolution would see, the web. I remember dial-up and AOL. It can't go as fast as this minicomputer. Well you don't get it, it's the web okay. David, thanks so much for coming on, appreciate it. Great conversation here at Radio 2018. I'm John Furrier, Cube coverage of VMware's annual 14th year conference, at Radio 2018. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)