(bright upbeat music) >> Hello everyone. And we're back at AWS Re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE and we're here, day two. Actually we started Monday night and we got wall-to-wall coverage. We going all the way through Thursday, myself. I'm Dave Volante with the co-host, David Nicholson. Lisa Martin is also here. Of course, John Furrier. Partners, technologists, customers, the whole ecosystem. It's good to be back in the live event. Of course we have hybrid event as well a lot of people watching online. Anshu Sharma is here. He is the co-founder and CEO of Skyflow, new type of privacy company, really interested in this topic. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, thanks for bringing me here. >> It's timely, you know. Privacy, security, they're kind of two sides of the same coin. >> Yes. >> Why did you found Skyflow? >> Well, the idea for Skyflow really comes from my background in some ways. I spent my first nine years at Oracle, six years at Salesforce. And whether we were building databases or CRM products, customers would come to us and say, "Hey, you know, I have this very different type of data. It's things like social security numbers, frequent flyer card numbers, card numbers. You know, can you secure it better? Can you help me manage things like GDPR?" And to be honest, there was never a clear answer. There's a lot of technology solutions out there that do one thing at a time, you can walk around the booths here, there's like a hundred companies. And if you use all those hundred things correctly, maybe you could go tell your board that maybe a social security number is not going to be lost anymore. And I was like, "You know, we've simplified everything else. Why is it so hard to protect my social security number? It should be easy. It should be as easy as using Stripe or Twilio." And this idea just never went away and kept coming back till a few years ago, we learned about the Facebook privacy challenges, the Equifax challenges. And I was like, boy, it's the time. It's time to go do it now. >> You started the company in 2019. Right? >> Yes. >> I mean, your timing was pretty good, right? So what are the big sort of Uber trends that you're seeing? Obviously GDPR, the California Consumer Privacy Act. I heard this morning. Did you hear this? That like, if you post a picture on social media now without somebody's permission, you're now violating their privacy. It's like, you can see the smiles on Anshu's face. >> Its like every week, we're like every week, there's a new story that could be like, well, Skyflow. The new story is the question, the answer is Skyflow. But honestly I think what's happened is, the issue is put very simple. You know all we're trying to do is protect people's social security numbers, phone numbers, credit card numbers, things we hold dear. At the same time, it's complex. Like what does it mean to protect your social security number let's say? Does that mean I don't get to use it for filing your taxes? Well, I need your credit card number to process a payment. And we were like, this is just too complicated. Why, how do companies like Apple do it? How do companies like Netflix manage not have as many breaches as my hotel that barely has any data. And the answer is those companies actually have evolved to a completely different architecture, the zero trust data architecture. And that was our inspiration for starting this company. >> Yeah. I mean. How many times have you been asked to give your social security number? And you're like, why? why do you want it? What are you going to do with it? How do you protect it? And they go, "I don't know." >> You know, what's even, my favorite is like, you give your social security number to say TurboTax, how many days of the year do they need to use it? One. How many days of the year do they have it? And the thing is, it's a liability for those CTOs too. >> Yeah right. >> The CTO of Walgreens, the CTO of Intuit. They don't really want that social security number just so they can process your card once a year, or your social security number once a year. It's almost like we're forcing them to hold onto data. And then they have to bear the burden of having these stories. Like, you know, everybody wants to prevent a New York Times story that says, what Robin Hood had a breach, Twitter had a breach. >> So walk us through how Skyflow would address something like that. So take the, you know, take the make a generic version of TurboTax, social security members. There they are right now, they're sitting in a database somewhere. Hopefully there's some security wrapped around it in some way or another. What would you advise a customer like that to do? And what are you actually doing for them? >> So, look, it's very simple. You are not going to put your username passwords in a generic database. You're going to use something like OD Zero or Octa to do it. We're living in a world where we have polyglot data stores. Like there's a key value store. There's a time series database. There is a search database like Elastic. There's a log database like Splunk. But PII data, Somehow we think just fine. If it's in a hundred places and our answer is that we should do the same thing that companies like Apple, Netflix, Google, everybody, does. They take this data. They completely isolate it from the databases. And it gets stored in a custom data store in our case, that would be Skyflow. And essentially we'd give you encrypted tokens back and you can use these encrypted tokens that look like fake social security number. It's called a Format Preserving Encryption. So if you think about all the breakthroughs we've had in homomorphic encryption, on secure elements, like the way your phone works, the credit card number is stored in a secure element. So it's the same idea. There's a secure part of your data stack, which is Skyflow. That basically keeps the data always protected. And because we can compute and search on encrypted data, this is important, everybody can encrypt data at rest. Skyflow is the first company that's come out and said, "Look, you can keep your phone number and social security number, encrypted while I can run an aggregation query." So I can tell you what's the balance of your customer's account balance. And i can run that query without decrypting, a single row of data. The only other company I know that can do that internally is a certain Cupertino based company. >> So think about it. Anybody can walk something up to a certain degree, but allowing frictionless access at the same time. >> While it's encrypted. So how do you make that? Are you, is a strategy to make that a horizontal service? That I can put into my data protection service or my E-commerce service or whatever. >> It's a cloud-based service that runs on AWS and other clouds. We basically given instance just like, you'll get an instance of a post-grad store or you get an API handled to OD Zero. You basically instantiate Skyflow of what gets created. It can be in your AWS environment, dedicated VPC. So it's private to you and then you have a handle and then basically you just start using it. >> So how, how do you, what's the secret sauce? How do you do that? >> The secret source. Well, now that we filed the patents on it, I can reveal the secret sauce. So the holy grail of encryption right now, if you go talk to people at a leading company, is there's something called Fully Homomorphic Encryption. That's fundamentally the foundation on which things like Bitcoin are built actually. But the hard part about Fully Homomorphic Encryption is it works. You can actually do mathematical computations on it without decrypting the data, but it's about a million times slower. >> Yes slower, right. >> So nobody uses it. My insight was that we don't need to do multiplications and additions on phone numbers. You never take my phone number and divide by your social security number. (Dave laughing) These numbers are not numbers, they are data structures. So our insight was if you treat them as specialized data structures, we're all talking about basically about 80 different types of data across the globe. Every human being has an ID, date of birth, height, color of eyes. There's not that many fields. What we can do then is create specialized encryption schemes for each data type. We call this polymorphic data encryption. Poly means multiple. As a result of that, we can actually store the data encrypted and build indexes on it. Since we can index interpret data, it's kind of like, imagine you can run real-time queries on data that's encrypted. Every other data store, When you encrypt the data, it becomes invisible to database. And that's why we had to build this as a full stacked service. Just like the Snowflake guys had to start with the foundation of storage, rethink indexing, and build Snowflake. We did the same thing, except we built it for encrypted indexes Whereas they built it for encrypted, for regular data stores. >> So thinking, if you think about today's tech stack, it's evolving, right? The data protection and security are coming together. Where does this fit? Is it sort of now becoming a fundamental part of the-- >> We think every leading company, whether you're building a new brokerage application or you are the largest bank in the world, and we're talking to some of them right now. They're all going to have an internal service called a PII wall. This wall just like Apple and Google have their own internal walls. You're going to have a wall service in your service oriented architecture, essentially. And it's going to basically be the API. Every other application and database in your company is not going to store my social security number. The SSNs don't belong in 600 databases at a leading bank. They don't belong inside your customer support system. Think about what happened with Robinhood two weeks ago, right? Someone tricked one call center guy into giving the keys up, which is fine happens. But why did the call center guy have access to like a million email addresses? He's never used going to use that. So we think if you isolate the PII, every leading company is going to end up with a PII Wall, as part of their core architecture. Just like today, we have an Alt API, you have a Search API, you have a Logging API, you're going to have a PII API. And that's going to be part of your modern data stack. >> So okay. So this is definitely not a bolt on, right? It's going to be a fundamental company, just like security is, just like backup is. It's now, you got to have it. It's-- >> Yes. I mean, if you think about it, it just logically makes sense. Like you should be isolating this data. You don't keep your money and gold around at home. You put it either in a locker or a bank. I think the same applies for PII. We just haven't done it because companies would pay off a fine for $10,000 or a million dollars. And. >> Yeah. So you've recently raised $45 million to expand your efforts. Obviously that means that people are looking at this and saying there's opportunity, right? What does that look like when you think of growth, where during your go to market strategy at first you're convincing people that it's a good idea to do it. Do you think or hope for, hope one day that there's an inflection point where it's not that people are thinking, you know, let's do this because it's a good idea, but people are like, I have to do this because if I don't, it's irresponsible and I'm going to be penalized for not having it. It becomes something that isn't really a choice. It's something where you just do it. >> So, you know, when we were starting the company, we didn't even have a word to explain what we were trying to do. We would say things like what if there was a cloud service for XYZ. And, but over the last one year, I don't want to take credit for creating this market, but this market has been created in the last year and a half. And you know, we get tons of people, including some of the largest institutions emailing us, saying, "I'm looking to build a PII wall, API service inside my company. Can you tell me why your product meets that need?" And I thought that would take us three to five years to get there. And, you know, we've ended up creating a category, basically just like other companies have. And I think, you know, you don't get, I believe in market permission. You don't get to create a category. The market gives somebody the permission to create a category. Saying, "Look, this makes sense. Something like this should emerge." And if you're there at the right time, like you said. >> Yep. >> You get to take the opportunity. >> So where are you at as a company say for some, some capital is great. When do you scale? >> We're scaling now? So we just doubled our headcount in the last nine to 10 months. We're now 75 people. We think we'll be about 150 to 200 people in the next year. We are hiring across all regions. We just hired a head of Asia pack from segment.com. We just hired our first, you know, lead on international expansion. And in the US, we have an office in Palo Alto. We have an office in Bangalore. We just announced a data residency solution for Europe, data residency solution for India and emerging markets. Because data residency is another one of those things that's just emerging right now. And irrespective of whether you believe in security and privacy. Data residency is one of those things that you are mandated to implement. >> And where are you hiring? Is it combination to go to market? Tell me about your go to market. >> The go to market. We are direct sales organization, but we work with partners. So we haven't announced some of these partnerships, but you're working with some of the companies here who either are large database companies, large security companies. We think there is a win-win relationship between us and some of the partner. >> You're a partner model, partner channel model. >> So, direct sales but partner assisted. >> Yeah. Right. All right. We got to go. Hey, awesome story. Congratulations. Best of luck. >> Very interesting. >> Love to have you back and track the progress. >> Thank you, thank you so much. >> Okay. Thank you for watching theCUBE, the leader in and high-tech coverage. We're at Re-Invent 2021. Be right back (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM thing brought to you by IBM we're back this is the cubes coverage of the IBM think 20/20 digital experience my name is Dave Volante is a wall-to-wall coverage over the multi-day event Harish promise here he's the general manager of the IBM public cloud rishi welcome back to the cube good to see you sorry we're not face to face but this will do yeah thank you great to see you again as well and you know it is the times what do you do you know I want to start by asking you you did a stint at a large bank I'd love to talk to you about that but but I want to stay focused you said last year on the cube you can't do everything in the public cloud certain things need to remain on Prem I'm interested in how your experience at the large financial institution and your experience generally working with you know your colleagues in in the banking industry how that shaped your vision of the IBM public cloud yeah I think that's a great question you know if you think about trying to transform yourself to a public cloud a lot of people what they try to do is you know they take applications that I've been running their enterprise and they try to redo them in its entirety with micro services using as level services I mean trying to put it all up in the public cloud now you know just think about some of these applications that are running your large institution right some of them will have regulatory ruled around it some of them have latency requirements or low latency requirements I should say some of them need to be close to the back end because that's where the data is so for all these reasons you know you have to think about a holistic cloud picture of which public cloud is you know integral to it but some of the things will need to remain on Prem right so when I build my public cloud out for IBM I kind of keep those in in the back of my mind as I get the team to work on it to ensure that we have the right capabilities on the public cloud and then where it makes sense you know have the right capabilities on the hybrid side as well working with my colleagues in IBM well you know the doc Ovid 19 pandemic that we've been talking to a lot of CISOs and CIOs we had a couple of roundtables with our data partner ETR and it was interesting you know organizations that maybe wouldn't have considered the cloud certainly as aggressively maybe they put some test dev in the cloud but you know have said well we're really reconsidering that one CIO actually said you know I'd love to delete my data center but but to your point you can't just delete the data center um first of all you don't want to necessarily move stuff second of all we've got a lot of experience from a consulting standpoint looking at this if you have to migrate migrates like an evil word especially with mission critical systems if you have to freeze code and you can't upgrade you know for some number of months you may be out of compliance or you're not remaining competitive so you have to really be circumspect and thoughtful with regard to what you do move I wonder if you could comment on that no I completely agree with what you're saying you know if you think about to your point right with Kovac things that really changed I've been speaking with a lot of cloud transformers I would say you know in the various industries but specifically with banks as well and the cloud leader for one of the large European banks said to me he said this was amazing because for four years he's been trying to get his he shows organization and risk and compliance etc to get their heads around moving applications to the cloud and he said that you know one month of kovat and having everyone locked down and home has been able to unblock more than what he's tried in the last four years so that's telling in itself right so look you know I've been working on public clouds for a good long time now both from a provider side as well as a consumer side and while you know you certainly just can't close your data centers that are running your large enterprise overnight you certainly can take a lot of stuff over there and move it to the public cloud in a meaningful fashion where you're able to take the pieces that really iterate more rapidly where you can get the end while keeping your data safe and you know being able to connect back into your back-end systems which will run a lot of your large processes in your enterprise as well so I think there is a balance to be had here and people especially banks I would say haven't been moving so much to the public cloud and I think this is the time where they're starting to realize that there is a time and place for a bunch of applications that can safely move and that gives them the agility and the productivity while everyone's locked at home and I think that's the eye opening so I'd love to have a frank conversation about why the IBM cloud I mean you know you got the the big guys you know Amazon Microsoft and Google maybe not as large people put them sort of in a category of hyper scalars great fair enough that people oftentimes dismiss you know the IBM public cloud however your point that you just made is critical and Ginni Rometty you was the first to kind of make this point Arvin's picked up on it that 80% of the workloads still are on trem and and it's that hard to move stuff that hasn't moved so and that's kind of IBM's wheelhouse I mean let's face it that the hard stuff it's the mission-critical you're kind of running the the banks and the insurance companies and the manufacturers and airlines around the world so what's the what's the case for the IBM cloud why the IBM cloud and why even move that stuff why not just leave it where it is yeah so I think there's a couple of answers here right one of them is the fact that when you talk to the hyper scalars and by the way I can't stress enough or a hyper scaler as well right people have taken a look at iCloud from about two plus years ago which you know at which point in time we were not but we certainly are and we can provision via size and so on and so forth as best as the best guys can so I want to just get that out of the way but to your point you know the reason why you would consider the IBM public cloud is when you talk to the other people they come at it from a very narrow perspective right they think about you know use vs is on x86 using cloud native pass services now you know I want to stress again that we do all three of those things extremely well but if you think about how large enterprises work nothing is as clean as that I did say there is a lot of applications that I've been running your institution that you can just willingly rewrite and then you have bare metal you'll have power systems whether it's AIX or I you'll have some Z in there Z Linux in there and then there's containers and then there's the VMware stack and there's containers running on bare metal containers running on vsi containers running on you know the VMware stack as well as the other architectures that I mentioned so we really meet our customers where they are in their journey and we give them a wide variety of capabilities and choices and flexibility to do their applications on the public cloud and that's what we mean by saying our cloud is enterprise ready as opposed to the nano answer of you'll do everything with vs is x86 and a service yeah I like that and I want to I want to circle back on that thank you for clarifying that point about hyper skills having said that it I've often said and I wonder if you could confirm or deny it's not IBM strategy to go head-to-head on cost per bit even though you you will you'll price it very competitively but your your game is to add value in other ways through your your very large software portfolio through AI things like blockchain and differentiable services that you can layer on top I've often made the point I think a lot of people don't understand that that insulates IBM from a race to the bottom with the alcohol traditional a cloud suppliers I wonder if you could comment yeah you know so I have to stress the point that just because I talk about all our other distinguishing capabilities that people don't walk away with the impression that we don't do what any of the other large cloud service providers do you know to your point we have AI we have IOT we've got a hundred ninety API driven cloud native pass services where you can write a cloud native application just like you build on the hyper scale other hyper scalars as well right so we give nothing away but for us the true value proposition here is to give you all of those capabilities in a very secure environment you know whether it is the fact that we are the only cloud where we don't have access to your data or your code because we have a keep your own key mechanism where we as a cloud service provider have no access to your key nobody else can say that so it is those Enterprise qualities of service and security that we bring to the table and the other architectures and the other you know constructs around bare metal and containers etc that distinguishes us further right and that's how it really so these are really important points that you're making and I know I'm kind of bringing out probably parts of the landscape that IBM generally doesn't want to talk about but I think it's important again to have that frank conversation because I think a lot of people misunderstand IBM is in the cloud game not only in the cloud game to your point but has very competitive you know from an infrastructure standpoint so many companies in the last decade we saw HP tried to get in they exited very quickly Joe to cheese's the CEO of EMC said we will be in the cloud you know they're buying mozi and you know exiting that so Dell right now doesn't you know it won't have a cloud play VMware tried to get in and now its course big partner of yours so you got in and that to me is critical just in terms of positioning for the next decade and beyond and and the other piece of differentiation that I want to drill into is the financial services cloud so what is that you obviously have a strong background there let's let's dig into that a little bit yeah if you look at the way most banks or actually every bank uses a public cloud is they build guardrail right they build guardrails from where their data center ends to where the public cloud begins but once you get into the public cloud then it really depends on the security that the cloud service providers provide and the csps will tell you that they have a lot of secure mechanisms there but if you ever speak with a bang you know they will never put their highly confidential data bearing apps with PII on a public cloud because they don't feel that the security that the cloud service providers provide is good enough for them to be able to put it there safely number one and number two prove to their regulators that they are in fact and compliant so what we've done is we work with a Bank of America and now you know a whole bunch of other banks that I'm not allowed to mention by name as yet where we're building a series of controls right these are both controls during your dev Sakharov cycle when you're building your app and another 400-plus controlled and the runtime that allow you is the bank to securely take your apps that have highly confidential data in III and put it on the public cloud and will give you the right things whether it's the isolation of the control plane and the data plane or it's their data loss prevention mechanisms the right auditing points the right logging points the right monitoring points the right reporting data sovereignty so we have controls built into the cloud that enable you to do all of this now banks will be quick to tell you that the onus of proof is on them alone to the regulators and we can claim that for them and they're absolutely right but today they spend hundreds of millions of dollars collecting all of that in providing that proof to the regulators you use our cloud we automate a whole bunch of that so you're not number one as a bank trying to implement these controls on a public cloud because that's not your job that's not your core expertise and number two when you actually build these compliance report you spending you know millions and millions of dollars trying to put it together whether compliance regulator will say yes this is okay we automate a large part of that for you and I think that's the key is the key issue we're solving you I want to follow up and just make sure I understand it is when I talk to executives in the financial services industry and other industries those they'll say things like look it's not that the cloud security is is bad it's just that I can't map the edicts of my organization into it certainly easily or even at all because I'm getting a sort of standard set of capabilities and it may not fit with what I need what I'm what I what I'm hearing is that IBM you know you guys are enterprise-c you used the specials but but so that's part of it but you also said you know they feel sometimes the cloud is that the security is not good enough and I want to understand what that is specifically if IBM is doing something differently so two things there one is your willingness whether it's auditability transparency mapping to corporate edicts and it may be other things that you're doing that make it better relative to go together yeah absolutely so one of the things is as I mentioned it's the mechanisms like keep your own key which is fundamental to building some of these compliance safeguards in but the the fundamental different thing we've done here is we work with the Bank of America and we've defined these controls to use your language that maps to their edicts right which should map to every banks edicts no you know there'll be a couple of extra controls here or there but largely they're all regulated by the same regulator so what satisfies one bang for the most part satisfies every other bank of the US as well right and so specifically what we've done is we've built those controls whether they are preventative controls or compensating controls in the CI CD pipeline as well as in the runtime on the cloud and that gives them a path to automation to produce the right results and the right reports to their auditors and that's really what we've helped them do so I know I'm pushing you here a little bit I'm gonna keep pushing if that's okay I was a great conversation when when IBM completed the acquisition of Red Hat you know the marketing was all about cloud cloud cloud and I came out and said yeah okay fine but what it's really about is application modernization that's the near-term opportunity for IBM you certainly saw that in the last earnings report where I think you're working with a hundred plus you know clients in terms of their application modernization so I said that is the way in which this thing becomes a creative which by the way it's already a creative and from a cash cash flow standpoint but but but but I'm gonna press you on on the cloud piece so talk about Red Hat and why it is cloud in terms of a cloud play yeah so you know this is the power of Red Hat and the IBM public cloud and of course Red Hat works or the other cloud print service providers as well so if you think about modernizing your application you know the industry pretty much has standardized around containers right as the best way to modernize their applications and those containers are orchestrated by kubernetes that's the orchestrator that's basically won the battle and Red Hat has OpenShift which is a industry-leading capability you know it's a coupon IDs control plane that manages containers and we from IBM we've put our content we've read backer a content into containers and we've made it run on an open ship and we have a cloud managed open ship server on the IBM public cloud as well as an on-prem that really helps bring our content to people who are trying to modernize their applications now think about an application that most people try to modernize you know the rough rule of thumb about 20 to 25 percent of it there's application code that is the onus is on the client to go and modernize that and they've chosen containers and turbidities and the other 75 to 80% arguably is middleware that they've got right and we've really tected in refactor that middleware into containers managed by open ship and we've done 80% of the work for them so that's how this whole thing comes together and you can run that on Prem you can run it on the IBM public cloud and I give you a cloud managed openshift service to do that effectively honor so that's interesting yeah that's very interesting I think there are you know probably at least three sort of foundational platforms one is obviously easy mainframe it's still much of IBM's customer base you know the tied to the Z and it drives all kinds of other software and so what the second is middleware to your point and you're saying you refactored and I think the third really is your choice of hybrid cloud strategy you kind of made the point you threw an on-prem it's to me it's that end-to-end that's your opportunity and your challenge if you can show people that look we've got this cloud-like experience of from cloud all the way to RM multi clouds that is a winning strategy it's jump ball right now nobody really owns that space and I think IBM's intent is to try to go after that I think you've called it a trillion-dollar market opportunity and it's obviously growing yes that's exactly right and the P spot so that I've been describing to you the you know the way people modernize our applications all fit very nicely into that now if you speak with the analysts they're going towards a whole different category called distributed cloud which basically means you know how do you bring these capabilities that run on your public cloud do on-prem and do other people's clouds and you know what I hinted at here is that's exactly where we're going with our set of capabilities and that is a technical journey I mean kubernetes is necessary but insufficient condition to have that sort of Nirvana of this distributed massive distributed system bring in edge edge systems as well so this is a you know at least a multi-year maybe even a decade-long journey there's a lot of work to be done there what would you say are their strategic imperatives for IBM cloud over the next several years so I think for us really it is you know building on this notion of the distributed cloud as I talked about it is you know fully building out the FSS cloud most of which we've already done and you know some of these things will never be at end of job because regulations keep changing and you keep adding to it and so you have to keep adding to it as well so a focus on FSS to begin with but then also to other industries as well right because there are other regulated industries here that can benefit from the same kind of automation that we're doing for FSS so we'll certainly do that and we're in a good position because it's not only our technology but it's our services practice it's a premonitory that deals with regulators etc so we have the whole package so we want to continue to build out on that branch into other industry verticals using our industry expertise across the board services product everything and then of course you know if there's one thing I BM has market permission for it is understanding the enterprise and building a secure product so we clearly want to evolve on that as well the IBM is a lot of arrows in its quiver including as we discuss cloud you know you just got to get her done as they say so iris thanks so much for coming to the cute great discussion appreciate your your transparency and and stay well Thank You YouTube thank you so much re welcome and thank you for watching everybody this is the cubes coverage of the IBM pink 2020 digital event experience we'll be right back right after this short break [Music]

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE, covering RSA Conference 2020, San Francisco. Brought to you by, SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back everyone. CUBE coverage here in Moscone in San Francisco for RSA, 2020. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. We've got a great guest here talking about cybersecurity and the impact with AI and the role of data. It's always great to have Derek Manky on Chief Security Insights Global Threat Alliances with FortiGuard Lab, part of Fortinet, FortiGuard Labs is great. Great organization. Thanks for coming on. >> It's a pleasure always to be here-- >> So you guys do a great threat report that we always cover. So it covers all the bases and it really kind of illustrates state of the art of viruses, the protection, threats, et cetera. But you're part of FortiGuard Labs. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Part of Fortinet, which is a security company, public. What is FortiGuard Labs? What do you guys do, what's your mission? >> So FortiGuard Labs has existed since day one. You can think of us as the intelligence that's baked into the product, It's one thing to have a world-class product, but you need a world-class intelligence team backing that up. We're the ones fighting those fires against cybercrime on the backend, 24/7, 365 on a per second basis. We're processing threat intelligence. We've got over 10 million attacks or processing just per minute, over a hundred billion events, in any given day that we have to sift through. We have to find out what's relevant. We have to find gaps that we might be missing detection and protection. We got to push that out to a customer base of 450,000 customers through FortiGuard services and 5 million firewalls, 5 million plus firewalls we have now. So it's vitally important. You need intelligence to be able to detect and then protect and also to respond. Know the enemy, build a security solution around that and then also be able to act quickly about it if you are under active attack. So we're doing everything from creating security controls and protections. So up to, real time updates for customers, but we're also doing playbooks. So finding out who these attackers are, why are they coming up to you. For a CSO, why does that matter? So this is all part of FortiGuard Labs. >> How many people roughly involved ? Take us a little inside the curtain here. What's going on? Personnel size, scope. >> So we're over 235. So for a network security vendor, this was the largest global SOC, that exists. Again, this is behind the curtain like you said. These are the people that are, fighting those fires every day. But it's a large team and we have experts to cover the entire attack surface. So we're looking at not just a viruses, but we're looking at as zero-day weapons, exploits and attacks, everything from cyber crime to, cyber warfare, operational technology, all these sorts of things. And of course, to do that, we need to really heavily rely on good people, but also automation and artificial intelligence and machine learning. >> You guys are walking on a tight rope there. I can only imagine how complex and stressful it is, just imagining the velocity alone. But one of the trends that's coming up here, this year at RSA and is kind of been talking about in the industry is the who? Who is the attacker because, the shifts could shift and change. You got nation states are sitting out there, they're not going to have their hands dirty on this stuff. You've got a lot of dark web activity. You've got a lot of actors out there that go by different patterns. But you guys have an aperture and visibility into a lot of this stuff. >> Absolutely. >> So, you can almost say, that's that guy. That's the actor. That's a really big part. Talk about why that's important. >> This is critically important because in the past, let's say the first generation of, threat intelligence was very flat. It was to watch. So it was just talking about here's a bad IP, here's a bad URL, here's a bad file block hit. But nowadays, obviously the attackers are very clever. These are large organizations that are run a lot of people involved. There's real world damages happening and we're talking about, you look at OT attacks that are happening now. There's, in some cases, 30, $40 million from targeted ransom attacks that are happening. These people, A, have to be brought to justice. So we need to understand the who, but we also need to be able to predict what their next move is. This is very similar to, this is what you see online or CSI. The police trynna investigate and connect the dots like, plotting the strings and the yarn on the map. This is the same thing we're doing, but on a way more advanced level. And it's very important to be able to understand who these groups are, what tools they use, what are the weapons, cyber weapons, if you will, and what's their next move potentially going to be. So there's a lot of different reasons that's important. >> Derek, I was riffing with another guest earlier today about this notion of, government protection. You've got a military troops drop on our shores and my neighborhood, the Russians drop in my neighborhood. Guess what, the police will probably come in, and, or the army should take care of it. But if I got to run a business, I got to build my own militia. There's no support out there. The government's not going to support me. I'm hacked. Damage is done. You guys are in a way providing that critical lifeline that guard or shield, if you will, for customers. And they're going to want more of it. So I've got to ask you the hard question, which is, how are you guys going to constantly be on the front edge of all this? Because at the end of the day, you're in the protection business. Threats are coming at the speed of milliseconds and nanoseconds, in memory. You need memory, you need database. You've got to have real time. It's a tsunami of attack. You guys are the front lines of this. You're the heat shield. >> Yes, absolutely. >> How do you take it to the next level? >> Yeah, so collaboration, integration, having a broad integrated platform, that's our bread and butter. This is what we do. End-to-end security. The attack surface is growing. So we have to be able to, A, be able to cover all aspects of that attack surface and again, have intelligence. So we're doing sharing through partners. We have our core intelligence network. Like I said, we're relying heavily on machine learning models. We're able to find that needle in the haystack. Like, as I said earlier, we're getting over a hundred billion potential threat events a day. We have to dissect that. We have to break it down. We have to say, is this affecting endpoint? Is this effect affecting operational technology? What vertical, how do we process it? How do we verify that this is a real threat? And then most importantly, get that out in time and speed to our customers. So I started with automation years ago, but now really the way that we're doing this is through broad platform coverage. But also machine learning models for and-- >> I want to dig into machine learning because, I love that needle in the haystack analogy, because, if you take that to the next step, you got to stack a needles now. So you find the needle in the haystack. Now you got a bunch of needles, where do you find that? You need AI, you got to have some help. But you still got the human component. So talk about how you guys are advising customers on how you're using machine learning and get that AI up and running for customers and for yourselves. >> So we're technology people. I always look at this as the stack. The stack model, the bottom of the stack, you have automation. You have layer one, layer two. That's like the basic things for, feeds, threat feeds, how we can push out, automate, integrate that. Then you have the human. So the layer seven. This is where our human experts are coming in to actually advise our customers. We're creating a threat signals with FortiGuard Labs as an example. These are bulletins that's a quick two to three page read that a CSO can pick up and say, here's what FortiGuard Labs has discovered this week. Is this relevant to my network? Do I have these protections in place. There's also that automated, and so, I refer to this as a centaur model. It's half human half machine and, the machines are driving a lot of that, the day to day mundane tasks, if you will, but also finding, collecting the needles of needles. But then ultimately we have our humans that are processing that, analyzing it, creating the higher level strategic advice. We recently, we've launched a FortiAI, product as well. This has a concept of a virtual-- >> Hold on, back up a second. What's it called? >> FortiAI. >> So it's AI components. Is it a hardware box or-- >> This is a on-premise appliance built off of five plus years of learning that we've done in the cloud to be able to identify threats and malware, understand what that malware does to a detailed level. And, where we've seen this before, where is it potentially going? How do we protect against it? Something that typically you would need, four to five headcount in your security operations center to do, we're using this as an assist to us. So that's why it's a virtual analyst. It's really a bot, if you will, something that can actually-- >> So it's an enabling opportunity for the customers. So is this virtual assistant built into the box. What does that do, virtual analyst. >> So the virtual analyst is able to, sit on premises. So it's localized learning, collect threats to understand the nature of those threats, to be able to look at the needles of the needles, if you will, make sense of that and then automatically generate reports based off of that. So it's really an assist tool that a network admin or a security analyst was able to pick up and virtually save hours and hours of time of resources. >> So, if you look at the history of like our technology industry from a personalization standpoint, AI and data, whether you're a media business, personalization is ultimately the result of good data AI. So personalization for an analyst, would be how not to screw up their job. (laughs) One level. The other one is to be proactive on being more offensive. And then third collaboration with others. So, you starting to see that kind of picture form. What's your reaction to that? >> I think it's great. There's stepping stones that we have to go through. The collaboration is not always easy. I'm very familiar with this. I mean I was, with the Cyber Threat Alliance since day one, I head up and work with our Global Threat Alliances. There's always good intentions, there's problems that can be created and obviously you have things like PII now and data privacy and all these little hurdles they have to come over. But when it works right together, this is the way to do it. It's the same thing with, you talked about the data naturally when he started building up IT stacks, you have silos of data, but ultimately those silos need to be connected from different departments. They need to integrate a collaborate. It's the same thing that we're seeing from the security front now as well. >> You guys have proven the model of FortiGuard that the more you can see, the more visibility you can see and more access to the data in real time or anytime scale, the better the opportunity. So I got to take that to the next level. What you guys are doing, congratulations. But now the customer. How do I team up with, if I'm a customer with other customers because the bad guys are teaming up. So the teaming up is now a real dynamic that companies are deploying. How are you guys looking at that? How is FortiGuard helping that? Is it through services? Is it through the products like virtual assistant? Virtual FortiAI? >> So you can think of this. I always make it an analogy to the human immune system. Artificial neural networks are built off of neural nets. If I have a problem and an infection, say on one hand, the rest of the body should be aware of that. That's collaboration from node to node. Blood cells to blood cells, if you will. It's the same thing with employees. If a network admin sees a potential problem, they should be able to go and talk to the security admin, who can go in, log into an appliance and create a proper response to that. This is what we're doing in the security fabric to empower the customer. So the customer doesn't have to always do this and have the humans actively doing those cycles. I mean, this is the integration. The orchestration is the big piece of what we're doing. So security orchestration between devices, that's taking that gap out from the human to human, walking over with a piece of paper to another or whatever it is. That's one of the key points that we're doing within the actual security fabric. >> So that's why silos is problematic. Because you can't get that impact. >> And it also creates a lag time. We have a need for speed nowadays. Threats are moving incredibly fast. I think we've talked about this on previous episodes with swarm technology, offensive automation, the weaponization of artificial intelligence. So it becomes critically important to have that quick response and silos, really create barriers of course, and make it slower to respond. >> Okay Derek, so I got to ask you, it's kind of like, I don't want to say it sounds like sports, but it's, what's the state of the art in the attack vectors coming in. What are you guys seeing as some of the best of breed tax that people should really be paying attention to? They may, may not have fortified down. What are SOCs looking at and what are security pros focused on right now in terms of the state of the art. >> So the things that keep people up at night. We follow this in our Threat Landscape Report. Obviously we just released our key four one with FortiGuard Labs. We're still seeing the same culprits. This is the same story we talked about a lot of times. Things like, it used to be a EternalBlue and now BlueKeep, these vulnerabilities that are nothing new but still pose big problems. We're still seeing that exposed on a lot of networks. Targeted ransom attacks, as I was saying earlier. We've seen the shift or evolution from ransomware from day to day, like, pay us three or $400, we'll give you access to your data back to going after targeted accounts, high revenue business streams. So, low volume, high risk. That's the trend that we're starting to see as well. And this is what I talk about for trying to find that needle in the haystack. This is again, why it's important to have eyes on that. >> Well you guys are really advanced and you guys doing great work, so congratulations. I got to ask you to kind of like, the spectrum of IT. You've got a lot of people in the high end, financial services, healthcare, they're regulated, they got all kinds of challenges. But as IT and the enterprise starts to get woke to the fact that everyone's vulnerable. I've heard people say, well, I'm good. I got a small little to manage, I'm only a hundred million dollar business. All I do is manufacturing. I don't really have any IP. So what are they going to steal? So that's kind of a naive approach. The answer is, what? Your operations and ransomware, there's a zillion ways to get taken down. How do you respond to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Going after the crown jewels, what hurts? So it might not be a patent or intellectual property. Again, the things that matter to these businesses, how they operate day to day. The obvious examples, what we just talked about with revenue streams and then there's other indirect problems too. Obviously, if that infrastructure of a legitimate organization is taken over and it's used as a botnet and an orchestrated denial-of-service attack to take down other organizations, that's going to have huge implications. >> And they won't even know it. >> Right, in terms of brand damage, has legal implications as well that happened. This is going even down to the basics with consumers, thinking that, they're not under attack, but at the end of the day, what matters to them is their identity. Identity theft. But this is on another level when it comes to things to-- >> There's all kinds of things to deal with. There's, so much more advanced on the attacker side. All right, so I got to ask you a final question. I'm a business. You're a pro. You guys are doing great work. What do I do, what's my strategy? How would you advise me? How do I get my act together? I'm working the mall every day. I'm trying my best. I'm peddling as fast as I can. I'm overloaded. What do I do? How do I go the next step? >> So look for security solutions that are the assist model like I said. There's never ever going to be a universal silver bullet to security. We all know this. But there are a lot of things that can help up to that 90%, 95% secure. So depending on the nature of the threats, having a first detection first, that's always the most important. See what's on your network. This is things where SIM technology, sandboxing technology has really come into play. Once you have those detections, how can you actually take action? So look for a integration. Really have a look at your security solutions to see if you have the integration piece. Orchestration and integration is next after detection. Finally from there having a proper channel, are there services you looked at for managed incident response as an example. Education and cyber hygiene are always key. These are free things that I push on everybody. I mean we release weekly threat intelligence briefs. We're doing our quarterly Threat Landscape Reports. We have something called threat signals. So it's FortiGuard response to breaking industry events. I think that's key-- >> Hygiene seems to come up over and over as the, that's the foundational bedrock of security. >> And then, as I said, ultimately, where we're heading with this is the AI solution model. And so that's something, again that I think-- >> One final question since it's just popped into my head. I wanted, and that last one. But I wanted to bring it up since you kind of were, we're getting at it. I know you guys are very sensitive to this one topic cause you live it every day. But the notion of time and time elapsed is a huge concern because you got to know, it's not if it's when. So the factor of time is a huge variable in all kinds of impact. Positive and negative. How do you talk about time and the notion of time elapsing. >> That's great question. So there's many ways to stage that. I'll try to simplify it. So number one, if we're talking about breaches, time is money. So the dwell time. The longer that a threat sits on a network and it's not cleaned up, the more damage is going to be done. And we think of the ransom attacks, denial-of-service, revenue streams being down. So that's the incident response problem. So time is very important to detect and respond. So that's one aspect of that. The other aspect of time is with machine learning as well. This is something that people don't always think about. They think that, artificial intelligence solutions can be popped up overnight and within a couple of weeks they're going to be accurate. It's not the case. Machines learn like humans too. It takes time to do that. It takes processing power. Anybody can get that nowadays, data, most people can get that. But time is critical to that. It's a fascinating conversation. There's many different avenues of time that we can talk about. Time to detect is also really important as well, again. >> Let's do it, let's do a whole segment on that, in our studio, I'll follow up on that. I think it's a huge topic, I hear about all the time. And since it's a little bit elusive, but it kind of focuses your energy on, wait, what's going on here? I'm not reacting. (laughs) Time's a huge issue. >> I refer to it as a latency. I mean, latency is a key issue in cybersecurity, just like it is in the stock exchange. >> I mean, one of the things I've been talking about with folks here, just kind of in fun conversation is, don't be playing defense all the time. If you have a good time latency, you going to actually be a little bit offensive. Why not take a little bit more offense. Why play defense the whole time. So again, you're starting to see this kind of mentality not being, just an IT, we've got to cover, okay, respond, no, hold on the ballgame. >> That comes back to the sports analogy again. >> Got to have a good offense. They must cross offense. Derek, thanks so much. Quick plug for you, FortiGuard, share with the folks what you guys are up to, what's new, what's the plug. >> So FortiGuard Labs, so we're continuing to expand. Obviously we're focused on, as I said, adding all of the customer protection first and foremost. But beyond that, we're doing great things in industry. So we're working actively with law enforcement, with Interpol, Cyber Threat Alliance, with The World Economic Forum and the Center for Cyber Security. There's a lot more of these collaboration, key stakeholders. You talked about the human to human before. We're really setting the pioneering of setting that world stage. I think that is, so, it's really exciting to me. It's a lot of good industry initiatives. I think it's impactful. We're going to see an impact. The whole goal is we're trying to slow the offense down, the offense being the cyber criminals. So there's more coming on that end. You're going to see a lot great, follow our blogs at fortinet.com and all-- >> Great stuff. >> great reports. >> I'm a huge believer in that the government can't protect us digitally. There's going to be protection, heat shields out there. You guys are doing a good job. It's only going to be more important than ever before. So, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming I really appreciate. >> Never a dull day as we say. >> All right, it's theCUBE's coverage here in San Francisco for RSA 2020. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent, 2018. Brought to you by Amazon web services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Well, we are nearly two days strong into our coverage, here at AWS re:Invent. If you look behind us, here on the set, this show floor is still jam packed, still a lot of activity, as 40,000 plus have made their way to Las Vegas, for this year's show. Along with Justin Warren, and I'm John Walls. we're joined now by Josh Yulish, who's the CEO of TmaxSoft, and Sri Akula, who's the CIO of HealthPlan Services. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, glad to have you >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. Well, first, let's just share the story at home, a little bit, about TmaxSoft, and HealthPlan. What your core functions are, and then we'll get into why your here. >> Sure, great question. So, TmaxSoft one of the key things we're doing right now, is helping companies take their old, legacy mainframe applications, and moving them into the future, running them on the cloud. Enabling that digital transformation, of taking the old, integrating it in, with the new. >> And you're one of those companies, I assume. >> Yes, we are on of those companies, and we're a technology solutions company, in health care. And, we're the market leaders in providing the platform for the archive business. And then we have a group, and other health care solutions, as well. >> Alright, so you've got to get rid of the old, at some point, you've got to move over to the new, at some point, you can't do it all at once. How do you start making those decisions about, what legacy, what are we moving, what aren't we, what are we going to redo? I assume a lot of it's budget, but there've got to be other implications, and other considerations, as well. >> Yeah, you some of the systems evolve, over the last two decades, especially in health care. And, I think it's fair to say health care has been lagging in adapting the cloud technology. Whether it be PII, or PHI, or HIPAA regulations, but now starting to embrace cloud more. And that opens up the opportunity for us to take investments, which was them, and move to the cloud, so that we can get agility into our systems, and get some efficiency, so that we can double up the modern technologies, and get more to our customers, our members. >> Yeah. That's often a challenge, about how you choose which ones to do, at what time. Because, I mean, IT projects don't have a great track record of being completed successfully. So, when you decide to move something to cloud, you are taking on a bit of risk, there, so you need to be able to manage that risk, reward. How do you consider which projects you should be running, so that I can get a bit of short term gain, now, but also to make those more strategic decisions about, well, we actually wanted to have this happen over a longer period of time, and we're willing to take a little bit more. How do you balance that risk, reward ratio? >> I think there's multiple lenses we apply together. A, first you need the right technology, to get up on the mainframe. And then you need the right partner, not just the technology, but who understands the nuances of software, you well over the gates, to get to that. >> Yeah. >> And, also, you know, if the change is less, it's working, don't fix something that's not broken. But, still bring the agility, and then leverage the cloud, what cloud has to offer. I think that's where Tmax comes into picture, where, helps us from a technology, and as a partner, to kind of guide us through this journey. Identify the path, you can't do this in isolation. You've got to have the right technology, and the right partner to help us to get to a better place. >> Yeah. And, Josh, with customers who are running through, there's plenty of customers out there, I'm sure, who are considering this, and struggle with this themselves. What are some of the behaviors you see, from people who do this well? So, when you've seen people who are succeeding at this transformation journey, what are some of the key things you look at and say, these are the markers of someone who really understands how to do this well? >> Sure, that's a great question. So, everybody wants to do this. Nobody really wants to stay in the past. The people that do it successfully, are the people that have a change agent mentality. That understand if I ignore the problem, my business, not just my IT, but my business is going to suffer. And, the IT leaders, and the CIO's that can see that vision, are the one's that enable the business to move forward, and give them a competitive differentiator. So that, to us, is what we really see as the differentiator for who's successful, faster, versus who isn't. >> You know, Justin was talking about the long view, right, and having a firm strategy, and taking a much deeper perspective. But, how do you do that when you know, whatever course you're going to take, is going to change. Because there's going to be a new technology, there's going to be a wrinkle that's going to come along, and it's going to upset the apple cart. And it might happen in six months. >> Amazon will announce something this afternoon. (laughs) >> So how do you have that long view strategy, both of you, when you know that, whatever road we're going on right now, a year from now it's probably not going to look like this. >> I'll take a stab at it. Probably Josh has, looking at other customers, may have more insights into it. The only list I see is, the member experience is the key, right now. The digital journey is all revolving around member experience. You take any vertical, client facing, client touching, is changing, evolving much faster, but your core systems don't need to change that fast. So, if you take the core systems, which are legacy, and move to a modern, and then embed with, maybe a mobile native, in a multi only channel, digital, and there, probably you don't want to modernize it. The most systems, they seem to stay there, anyway. So, take something core, data change is low, move them to cloud, and monetize, and get the most ROI, out of the investment you made. At least, that's what we are looking at it. >> Yeah, I think that we see the same thing with most of our customers. So, when they look at, how do I get off the mainframe? These things have been around 20, 30, 40 years. If it was easy, they would have done it. It's not, it's a very closed, difficult to disrupt system. And, when they think about, we'll re-write our application, or we'll do something else, that's a five to 10 year journey, on average. So, then your disruption, or the new thing comes out in a year, it impacts that project for them, and it makes it very difficult. So, we've helped them move off six to 12 months, on average. So now you can more rapidly, solve your initial pain, and then look at your longer term journey in a way that allows you to do it all at once, and over time. >> I think, being able to react to what's coming new, as you said, John, but also have that longer term vision, that's a tricky thing to be able to do, but it is so important to be able to balance that short term benefits, that then actually support the longer term vision. >> That's spot on. So, get the TCO under control now, and then that gives us the flexibility to re-write which is going to be more forward looking, and not necessarily re-writing the same old, in a new way. >> And it builds credibility with the rest, because then we're customers as well. If you were to go and try something like this, that actually disrupts the business, and disrupts customers, then they're probably not going to trust you when you try to do this again. But if you've got a few wins on the board, then they're going to trust you with a slightly bigger project, and you can actually get further with it, I think. >> Yeah, absolutely. And, I think what we've seen, and we're working with HealthPlan Services, and all of our customers in the same way, is they can free up cash, from their operational spend, and IT, very quickly. That they can then invest into innovation. And, everything that you see here at the show, they can now go do those things. Where, before, most of there money is stuck in operating, just keeping the lights on. Keeping the lights on, on something 40 years old. Now, you can invest in innovation, without disrupting the customer, the experience is the same. Performance is the same, all of those things are the same, but they get that value of, we can make it new as well. >> I know there's plenty CFO's that'd be happy to hear that. Because they go, you want me to invest how much of new money? Oh, no, no, we found plenty of money, it was just sort of lying over here. We were setting it on fire, for some reason. (laughs) Let's not do that. >> And it's an easy conversation, as a CIO, getting to the CEO saying, hey, I'm going to take the cost out, invest back into the product. That's an easy conversation to have. >> Josh talks about this, I guess, multi-faceted process that you're going to go through, right. How do you decide, on the customer side, how do you prioritize, particularly in your space, health care, what's going to go first, what's going to go second, and then what can we put off long enough, there's probably going to be something else coming, that we can adopt a different approach. So, who are your stakeholders, who do you answer to, how do you come up with that? >> Multiple ways to look at it. Especially in our domain, at least the technology Tmax has to offer, they're taking out most of the risk for us. Because, it's a lot of lift, and shift, and the technology was so much. They are minimizing the risk. And, the timeline's also shrinking. Because the longer it takes, by the time you realize the ROI, and the projects move on, the changes, I think that's where the technology maturity's coming in. It's really helping us a lot. And, again, we look at more member experience, we do ground up building. Take the core assets, do a lift, and shift, and shrink the time. But, again, Josh if there is one thing I look at, it's the timeline before the shrink. I know, it used to be two years, 18 months, 24 months, coming to nine months to 12 months. I would like to see that more, and more, happen, maybe six to nine months. And, that gives us more leverage, and more confidence, to customers. The longer the project stays, the failure rate goes up, higher, and higher. >> Right. >> Yes. >> We all want it now. (laughs) So, Josh, go deliver, would you please? >> That's the goal. >> You've got the mission. Thank you for the time, we appreciate it. And, wish you both success down the road. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, very much >> Thank you. >> We're back with more, we're live at AWS re:Invent, in Las Vegas, Nevada. (mellow music)

(techy music playing) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris and once again, welcome to theCUBE. We're broadcasting today in this wonderful CUBE Conversation from our Palo Alto Studios and we're really lucky. We've got a really interesting topic. We're going to be meeting with Manmeet Singh, who's the founder and CEO of Dataguise. Manmeet, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> So, Manmeet, we're going to talk a lot, we're going to talk today about the whole concept of data privacy and how to improve the tooling fort, but first tell us a little bit about yourself and Dataguise. >> Well, I founded Dataguise in 2008, '09 timeframe. We have been around for about nine years. We have raised money at different levels, but today what we decided, people call it GDPR. We had defined it earlier, today people call it PII, PCI, so all that things, the compliance issues are coming. That's what we have been defining and doing. >> So, the whole concept of, as I mentioned, data privacy is extremely important. There's, as you said, GDPR, new regulatory pressures, new ethical pressures, business corp pressures, but increasingly also new consumer and customer pressures. >> Manmeet: Yeah. >> To force businesses or to encourage businesses, let's put it a little bit more nicely, to be more clear about what information they're gathering about the customers they're doing business with and how they're using that information. But the tooling to do that is all over the map and it's, that's one of the first excuses that businesses use is, "Well, that'd be too hard." Well, what can be done to dramatically simplify the process of identifying what is and what is not private data from a customer standpoint. >> This is, you pretty much put everything in a small nutshell for the whole problem which existing. What businesses are saying, they cannot solve the problem is no longer true. There are companies like us and there are many other companies who are in the similar frame, which are doing something else than what we do, but our company has been looking at these problems for a long time, and data, which they are collecting, they're not telling people what they have and they just don't want to. These laws and compliance issues with teeth, which are coming out today, are forcing them to tell people what they have about them, tell people if they want to use them in the right way or not. So, people are getting more control of the data. Earlier the businesses had control of the data, and this is what these laws are supposed to do and I think they are doing the right thing. >> Well, there's this notion of information asymmetry, which is a very powerful concept, and basically a situation that is informationally asymmetric exists when the buyer or the seller has a superior understanding of the information associated with the transaction and therefore is able to get a better deal or more value out of the transaction. >> Manmeet: Correct. >> In many respects what we're talking about is circumstance when customers or consumers don't know what value a business is extracting from that transaction independent of that specific knowledge or information that they provided to them, and they're trying to claw that back to assure the right level of trust, the right level of derivative activity, things that in fact are in concert with good business practices, have I got that right? >> Absolutely, absolutely, once you give the data to the customer by taking a loan from a bank or just buying a car or something you don't know where that information is being used. They get all the information from you. They get your social security number. They get your income, they get your number of dependents you have. They even get your sexual orientation on top of it. Now, do you want the bank to know all that about you if you're not doing business with them? Do you want these other agencies like social networks to know all that about you and share that information freely No you don't, how do you get that control? And that is the biggest problem which we are facing today, because these businesses don't want customers to know that and they were kind of keeping that information and extracting a large amount of value and targeting you guys because they know who are the high net worth people. So, they were distributing that data in many ways. These are my top two percent customers, these are my top 30 percent. Okay, I'll protect this data but I'll extract most value out of it. Oh, and these are people who make so little income they are not that useful as a customer but they are still useful as a data because I can make a generic campaign, so there they keep them in the lower grade level. So, those things they should tell customers. They should tell what they are extracting. So, those things were not happening and that's why if you look in Europe there's GDPR law, which just came out, and I think similar legislation will come in the US. Sooner or later it has to come in because customers are becoming very aware of this whole problem today and the data loss, which is happening on a regular basis. >> Well, GDPR provides for two types of things that a business must do. It must provide insight into the data that it's captured about a business or an individual, a legal entity, and it must also then provide the processes for remediating or taking action against that data according to whatever the customer's mooches are. >> Manmeet: Absolutely right. >> Tell us a little bit about that. >> So, these are two important features because of GDPR. First thing, GDPR has 99 articles and 173 articles and 99, like, term and technological ways. There are other ways, legal ways to do it, but technologically what they want, like if Peter decides that I need to know from this bank or this social media company how much information do you have about me and what are you doing with it, they have to provide that information is 30 days. That is called right to access, and the second thing is you can come and say, "Well, I'm not using "these five things which you sold me earlier. "I don't want you to use that information, "not even have information on that for me "or my son or my kid," so you can tell them delete that information or mask that, and this is-- >> And that's called the right to... >> Right to erasure, right to remove the data, and these two things are very important. This gives customers, they make customer the king. They make the individual the king. He can say, "Tell me what you have on me "and delete what you have on me." >> Now, the laws have been in the books, at least in the EU, for GDPR for a while, but the fines start getting leveled in May. >> Manmeet: May 25th. >> Now, we've heard that there's a lot of businesses, large and small, that are having a problem and they're asking for more time because it's so difficult. Your argument is no, it doesn't have to be difficult, they is tooling to do this. >> Manmeet: Correct. >> Talk a little bit about some of the data, some of the Dataguise toolkit and how it solved this problem so that someone actually can come into compliance, for example to GDPR. >> Correct, so what we have been doing for nine years is searching the sensitive data across an enterprise in different platforms they have. It could be databases, unstructured data, or file systems. Whatever way they are collecting data, our tools, our products can go search for that sensitive data. That's the basic minimum which you have to do for any company. Search across all the platform, all the data platform you have. The sensitive data for individuals or the sensitive data in any ways. Once you have that, then you need remediation on that, which could be either masking, redaction, or encryption. We provide all that on the premise product also, and then you need monitoring of that data, so we provide monitoring on that also and you have to give a breach detection, or you have to have a breach detection or if there is a breach of the data you have to notify the people in less than 72 hours. We can do that because we can find your breaches in real time and tell you what is in there. So, our product is fully connected from finding the sensitive data to masking the remediation or encrypting or redacting, and then monitoring that data. So, this is the on premise thing. What we announced recently when our Amazon show, which happened like two weeks back, was our product is now available as a SAAS product on all three clouds, Amazon, Google, and Azure, and if the company is born in a cloud company and they have all the data on the cloud they can do it over there. They don't have to install our product. They just subscribe to our product and they can do it. They can pay the monthly rent of our product and just use it, or they can open up a path, if it's a small company we tell them all to implement the product, they don't have resources-- >> You implement it on site. >> Implement it on site, yes, they can take our SAAS product, open a little hole on the VPN and find everything on the databases or the file systems they have and we can help do all those things which are required from GDPR. >> So, that notion, privacy compliance as a managed service. >> Manmeet: Correct, privacy compliance as a managed service, that's a good one, yes. >> So, the bottom line is if I'm a large company I don't have an excuse anymore, I can now-- >> No, you don't. >> So, you've created, and you've been around for nine years, so this is not some fly by night thing. >> No, no, no, we have been around, yes. >> You've been doing this for a while. So, I can install the tool, I can run through my sensitive information, I can start grabbing and creating metadata regarding... It's really not creating a general purpose catalog, it's creating specifically metadata and a catalog, if you will, of privacy related information. >> Manmeet: Information, correct. >> So, a large company can do that and then a customer now can be given visibility into from a right of access standpoint, and be given options about what it does and your tool will then also take action against the datas-- >> Correct. >> To be in compliance. >> So, just not do it, some large companies are already doing it. >> Peter: Mm-hmm. >> Some of my early customers have been with me for four to five years. They have been using my product. They are the largest of the large financial institution, largest of the large healthcare institution, social media companies, companies who are available selling and buying products. They have been using my product. There are companies who are using it and are successfully using it and they have been cataloging it and masking it and figuring it out, but now they have to make it available to the customer, so for them it's only one step process. Companies who have not started doing anything on it or have not thought about it, they can start using our product. They can start looking into it, they can start implementing it, or if they don't have that much resources to implement they can buy our SAAS product, which is available, which can link to their systems and give them privacy and compliance over there. >> All right, so time to value's a big issue in everything. Give us a sense of if they made a decision tomorrow, at what point in time are they actually going to be in a position to satisfy, at least in the GDPR sense, right to access, right to erasure laws. >> That's a good question because it totally depends upon how much data they have. See, there is a physics law on that one. You cannot scan petabytes of data in three days, but if you have only terabytes of data we can get it done in, like, day's time or week's time, but if you have petabytes of data you have to be doing it, like, six months earlier. You see in January some companies have not even started doing it. They should do it now because GDPR will not come fine you right away. They will say if you have a process in place they're going to give you some time. So, you need to start, like, right now. May 25th is just right away. This is not like a Y2K problem which will go away. This is a problem which is going to keep growing, keep growing, keep growing, because the data's going to keep grow. >> Mm-hmm. >> And the compliance is going to keep coming after you again and again. >> Right. >> It's not something which after May 30th is going to become, like, less effective. It's going to become more effective because they are going to fine people, they're going to bring... I'm pretty sure some European companies are going to get fined. They are definitely, once they get fined people are going to realize that this is not, this is with teeth, so they will have to do something about it. >> Yeah, and we have a chief privacy officer client that has told us that, for example, if one of the big breaches that occurred last year, US financial services company, that had it happened under the GDPR laws after the fines were put in place it would've cost that company 160 billion dollars in fines. >> Manmeet: Right. >> Would've put them out of business. >> Would put them out of business. >> So, the bottom line is if we're looking at this is there... It's not such an onerous process that a company that started now could in fact demonstrate that they're making, you know, a really good faith effort to try to come into compliance with this, but it's not just GDPR, and it's although maybe catalyzed by regulation, but increasingly this notion of information asymmetry is going to become more obvious. They may not call it that, but more obvious to consumers and businesses as well, and the whole notion of the amount of trust you should put in a brand is going to become an attribute of the decision about who you work with. How do you envision that tooling like this is going to become a part or a significant feature of a company's brand being able to demonstrate the capacity or the capabilities for doing this? >> I think this will become a selling point. Compliance is one way of doing it because then you are just tick marking for the law, but the second is the customer is becoming so aware today. The customer's going to say, "Okay, how do you "protect my data, what all do you have, "what kind of tools or products you are using "to protect my data, to monitor my data. "Otherwise I will not take loan from you "because I have 20 options to take loan from. "I'll go to that bank, which is providing better compliance and better security for my "name and my data and my information," So, similarly you're not going to buy from one company to another company depending upon what all they collect on you, what all they use it for. You're going to question that, so the awareness which all these breaches and all these social media hacks, which all happened in last, like, six months, nine months, and a year, you have seen are creating a social awareness among people. People are talking about it, if you go to social tools people are talking about it. You go to business tool people are talking about it. On your Whatsapp you're receiving so many things where people are talking about it. "Hey, my data's important to me, don't share it." So, those things have become, earlier it was like, "Hey, my data, who cares "about it," but now it's all changed. My credit card number is important, my name is important, my social security, those things are so important that the customer is going to demand that of the companies. So, companies have to invest a lot of money on that, and they should have been doing it til now, but now they will be forced to do it. It's not just a compliance, I think they all have to come together. Compliance had come at a time when these breaches are happening, so the awareness is there and the compliance is there and the issues are there, so these things will make it happen. >> So, I'm going to give you two other examples. One is, or two other questions related to this, one is from personal experience I know that a lot of companies don't realize that certain systems are in fact a part and parcel of the service path that they have to customers, and when, for example, Ransomware occurs or when they get hacked and people start grabbing information that they find out that information was grabbed out of a system and they don't associate with personal data. Are you going to, is your tool going to be able to elevate that conversation so you in fact do know everything that has personal information in it and you can bring new security, new other types of practices to bear on it? >> So, older securities which have been existing... Actually, let me put this question in a good way. What you did, it's a very great question. Older security tools have been existing. They have been a fence around the whole system. They protect Ransomware, they prevent people from coming in, going out, but still the breaches happen. First thing is breaches will happen, no matter what. They're going to figure out a better way to get into your systems. Now they've gotten into the systems. The companies have been existing for years and they don't even know how many databases or how many file systems they have, forget about data. They don't even know how many databases. There was a company, I can take an example, they said, "Oh, we have only 18 databases." I go, "Well, let me find out." We ran our tool over there, we discovered 735 databases. The reason was they had employees who came in, created data, downloaded data from the production system and that was not secure. Then we found social security numbers, email addresses, and people's salary in those 720... Do you even know that you have 720 databases? They were like, "I knew only 15 of them," and all of a sudden they bought my product because now those 715 have to come in compliance because they did not know about it. They have to do something about it. So, there are tools which our company provides which can do those things. These are large banks I am talking about. These are not like Harisho, which are, like, small companies which are, like, five million revenue. These are like billions of revenue companies and they have databases. They have file systems in the range of 1,000 to 10,000 file systems. They don't even know what they have in there. >> Peter: Right. >> We can scan them all but it'll take time. >> See, I think that's an important thing. Now, the second thing I wanted to say is GDPR does have right to access and right to erasure-- >> Manmeet: Yes. >> But it also attempts, at least, most regulations are likely to do this, to make it possible for a company to make reasonable use of data once it's been anonymized. So, for analytics, to improve products, to improve the quality of service. Do you get in the way of that, does that-- >> No, we actually make that way very effective. What we do is Peter comes in and says, "Remove my name and social security number "and my address from everywhere." We can anonymize that data, we can mask it but still keep the statistical analysis of the data in the same way. >> Peter: Interesting. >> So, Peter will become James with different social security number, which has no compliance issues because the data of Peter is gone. It'll still tell you that this person stays in this city, who bought this much on MasterCard and this much on Visa card and had that kind of income. >> Right. >> But it won't be related to the PII, PCI, or even GDPR, so it'll be compliant but it'll still give you a statistical analysis. This is what they should have been doing. This was a smart practice, this was a good practice which we have been advocating for nine years to large companies, but the good thing is now the GDPR and the compliance issues have come in, so they have to do it by force. They're going to but my product more and they have to use it. >> Right, so the bottom line is you've been out there for a while, the market's coming to you. >> Manmeet: Yes, that is happening now. >> All right, Manmeet Singh, CEO, founder of Dataguise. >> Yes. >> Great conversation about how to establish tooling to improve visibility into privacy data for regulatory trust and other issues. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks for being on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us, thank you. >> Once again, I'm Peter Burris, you've been listening to a CUBE Conversation from our Palo Alto Studios. Thanks very much for being here. >> Manmeet: Thank you. (techy music playing)

>> Announcer: Live, from the Moscone Center, it's theCUBE covering AWS Summit San Francisco 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Summit here in San Francisco. I'm Stu Miniman, happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Sai Mukundan, who's in product management at Cohesity, excuse me, Sai, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu, lovely to be here at AWS Summit. >> Okay, tell us a little bit about your background and really, what led you to come to Cohesity? >> Sure, so as you know, Cohesity is one of the private VC funded companies in the Bay Area. I was actually in Microsoft Azure prior to Cohesity. >> Can't mention Azure here, we're at the AWS event, Sai. >> It's okay, I mean, that's where I was, right? >> So, I've been in storage domain, in the industry for some time, prior to that at Veritas. Being in product management for a number of years, and I think what drew me to Cohesity was really two things, right. One is the fact that it was led by, it's led by Mohit Aron, one of the pioneers when it comes to distributed systems and building and scaling companies. And then, the second thing is to really be part of something where you can make a big difference in industry. I mean, you are making a sea change in the storage domain, of all things, to become hard again. And so to be part of that change was really what drew me to Cohesity. >> Yeah, (mumble), you talk about storage in Cloud. You know, when you think back, it's like, remember, Cloud was going to be simple, it's just this wonderful thing. We just turn it on, I don't have to worry about things like, definitely don't have to worry about storage. You know, they'll take care of all my security, your backup goes away, I don't have to worry about any of the things anymore. Oh, wait, maybe we do need to worry about those things, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, what we see from customers is, a lot of them really want to adopt the Cloud and have been adopting it in their own way, right? But what they're faced with is, really, broadly, I would say from a storage perspective, three different challenges. One is the fact that they have, they continue to have their on-premises and now they're looking to leverage the Cloud, so that's number one in terms of how can I make it very seamless without any point products or point solutions. The second is, from a Cohesity perspective, we are really focused on what we call a secondary storage. Things that are outside what we call the primary, which is not your mission critical, high IOPS, low latency applications, but things like backup, test, dev, DR, right? And so, there's a lot of silos in there. So, how do I adopt the Cloud, at the same time reduce the silo infrastructure? And the third one is really around ease of use and management and simplicity around it. So that's really where the complexity comes in and Cohesity is trying to address that. >> Okay, Sai, when I look, some of the marketing material from Cohesity, I heard the term, it was hyper-converged, secondary storage. Isn't that some box that lives in my data center? How does that fit into, kind of, the Cloud discussion that we're having today? >> Yeah, so let me clarify that myth a little bit, right. So, in the data center, yeah, you have a lot of boxes, right. But, from Cohesity, the way we like to think about our solutions is it's completely software defined, right. Software defined, API-driven approach to doing things. So let me, kind of, set you up with what the challenge is from a customer standpoint. So when you have secondary storage, or the element of backup and test, dev, and DR. What customers typically have is a combination of media servers, massive servers, talking to storage, tape, and then Cloud becomes an afterthought. You typically have some kind of a Cloud gateway, talking to various different public Clouds, right. So you can see how this environment is pretty complicated in the fact you have different point products. So very scattered and inefficient. The second thing, from an inefficiency standpoint, is the fact that there is the same copy of data maintained across many different systems. And then, now, when you think about the Cloud, you're now trying to manage the on-premise with the Cloud, right, and managing it in two different environments is not very easy. That's the problem space and then with Cohesity, what we are trying to do is, we have what we call The Data Platform, again that's the software-defined aspect of it, which can run on hardware that we provide. Or it can run on hardware that the customers bring to the table. So, again that's where the software-defined nature comes in. And the same software, we call it the Cloud Edition can run on AWS or any of the other public Clouds as well. >> Okay, so paint a picture for me. Is the data center kind of the primary piece and the Cloud, is it kind of a back up archive, things like that? Or are they equal and they live, or there's some customers, can I just have Cohesity software only in public Clouds, or does there need to be some data center component of this? >> It's really all of the above, in the sense that we have customers who think of it, think of a hybrid approach to doing things. So they have their on-premises and the Cloud as well, right. And, in the hybrid approach, they're typically trying to do two things. One is, leverage just the storage in the Cloud as an extension of their on-premise, wherein you can archive the data for long-term retention or for tiering. And then the second use case is really around test, dev, and disaster recovery in the Cloud. Then we have a second set of customers which are born in the Cloud, Cloud only, right. And that's where our Cloud Edition product, the software-defined nature of it helps them run in the Cloud and so all the same main points. We don't want any silos now existing in the Cloud, right. And then, there is a third category wherein they are predominantly on-prem today, but heavily looking to leverage the Cloud, and Cohesity is that data continuum, so to speak, in terms of a single platform, a single fabric, that can manage both on-premise, as well as the Cloud environment. >> Great, so I heard, Cloud Edition, I could be only in The Cloud and can work with Cohesity. >> Absolutely. >> When I look at customers, you know, it's typically heterogy as an environment. It's great if I've got some brand new, born in the Cloud there, but most customers, they've got a heterogeneous environment, which means, I've got multiple different storage types in my data center. I'm probably using multiple Cloud services, and we'd think that'd be a good position for Cohesity, to be that secondary storage layer, to help manage all of that, no matter what we are. Am I getting that right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I would say, the more fragmentation, or the more point solutions a customer is using today, the greater the benefit they can realize from Cohesity. 'Cause we are really bringing all of that together, right. So, you mention storage, storage is a big part of it. But, you also see a lot of customers looking toward up more compute as well in The Cloud, right. That's where the likes of Amazon EC2 and The EBS really comes in to play as well, right. And in that case, really, the use cases are test, dev, disaster recovery, and then the fact that they can do more with the data, right? One of the other things that our platform offers is the ability to do analytics on it. The ability to find insights, as Mohit likes to call it, it's dark data today, but we can shed some light on it. So that's really where the direction is where we are headed in terms of innovation and where Cohesity is headed as a company. >> Sai, what do you find from customers? Are they aware of the challenge that they have in the Cloud? I think, in the data center, it's kind of well known that I need to be able to deal with these. Are there customers that are just unaware that they've got some of these challenges or falling into pitfalls and losing data or having issues that they then have to deal with? >> I would say there are two sets of customers in that space. One is the customer who is really wary about things, who's really security conscious, who's kind of just dabbling with The Cloud, maybe, here and there, but really conscious about adopting it on a broader perspective. Just because they're really concerned about whether it's PII information, or any other security aspects, right. So, for them, having a solution that spans both on-premise and the Cloud really is a great stepping stone, so to speak, in terms of now I can confidently move the data to the Cloud. It's encrypted both at rest and in flight, and I can continue to use the same solution in both cases. We have a second set of customers, I would say, who are more, have been more bullish about the Cloud in general. But now they are taking a step back and saying, hey, wait a minute, I'm continuing to face some of these same challenges that existed on-premise in the past, right. It's siloed again, I have various different storage. We have S3, EBS, you have potentially other things, And then, I'm running into the same pitfalls. So how can I take a step back, take a more holistic approach and solve the problem? So, again, they're with the software-defined nature of our solution really appeals to them because we come in and we can solve some of those problems as well. They then face the same sort of problems in the Cloud world as they did on-prem world and now they can say hey, let me look at Cohesity as a solution that can get me there. >> All right, you brought up PII, so I have to ask the big question that's in everybody's mind lately, what about GDPR? AWS said this morning, all their services, fully ready, 100%, how does this impact Cohesity and your customers? >> So, GDPR is a big thing for us and our customers and prospects, as well. So we are actively working on getting GDPR compliant. Today, our platform is FIPS compliant, so that's already a big stepping stone to getting there. So we look at GDPR in one of, in two ways again, right. One is the the solution that we provide to our customers, The Data Platform and The Data Protector, as we call it, being GDPR compliant. Meaning, the data that lands on that system, the ability to delete the data, the ability to say who has access to the data, road-based access, things like that. The second aspect is our support and the fact that we have access to a lot of customer information ourselves, right. The fact that we can look at their systems and make sure that everything that we do internally is also GDPR compliant, so that the customers and our support systems and our salesforce database is all GDPR as well. So both those elements come in to play and we are actively working on all of them. >> Well, I wouldn't expect that you'd be looking at the customers' data. (Stu chuckles) >> Well, when I say customers' information, what I mean is the fact that when we access their platform, let's say they file a support ticket. The fact that now we can access their platform, debug their systems, look at the logs and alerts. It's equally important to be compliant there as well, from a GDPR stand point. >> Totally understand, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any ambiguity there. Great, Sai, I want to give you the final word. We look forward to 2018, what can we be looking for from Cohesity as a regards to the Cloud Marketplace? >> Yeah, I think a couple of things there. One thing that you will hear more about is Cohesity and Cloud. We are actively, we have been working on The Cloud elements, both from a storage perspective and a computer perspective. But looking here, I would say more on what we can do with Cloud Edition, especially with the fact that there are more Cloud native, born in the Cloud applications and providing the same data protection and platform abilities in the Cloud, that is number one. And then the second aspect, I would say, is continued reinforcement of our hybrid message. The fact that we can solve this pain point for our customers in the on-prem world and the Cloud world. Really, from a scalable standpoint, from an API different standpoint, and the ease of use in management. Those three themes are something that you will continue to hear from Cohesity. >> All right, Sai Mukundan with Cohesity, thanks so much for bringing us the update. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from AWS Summit San Francisco, I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

(light orchestral music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Cube Conversation here at the Palo Alto studios for theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. We're here for some news analysis with Peter Smails, the CMO of Datos.IO D-a-t-o-s dot I-O. Hot new start up with some news. Peter was just here for a thought leader segment with Chris Cummings talking about the industry breakdown. But the news is hot, prior to re:Invent which you will be at? >> Absolutely. >> RecoverX is the product. 2.5, it's a release. So, you've got a point release on your core product. >> Correct. >> Welcome to this conversation. >> Thanks for having me. Yeah, we're excited to share the news. Big day for us. >> All right, so let's get into the hard news. You guys are announcing a point release of the latest product which is your core flagship, RecoverX. >> Correct. >> Love the name. Love the branding of the X in there. It reminds me of the iPhone, so makes me wanna buy one. But you know ... >> We can make that happen, John. >> You guys are the X Factor. So, we've been pretty bullish on what you guys are doing. Obviously, like the positioning. It's cloud. You're taking advantage of the growth in the cloud. What is this new product release? Why? What's the big deal? What's in it for the customer? >> So, I'll start with the news, and then we'll take a small step back and sort of talk about why exactly we're doing what we're doing. So, RecoverX 2.5 is the latest in our flagship RecoverX line. It's a cloud data management platform. And the market that we're going after and the market we're disrupting is the traditional data management space. The proliferation of modern applications-- >> John: Which includes which companies? >> So, the Veritas' of the world, the Commvault's of the world, the Dell EMC's of the world. Anybody that was in the traditional-- >> 20-year-old architected data backup and recovery software. >> You stole my fun fact. (laughs) But very fair point which is that the average age approximately of the leading backup and recovery software products is approximately 20 years. So, a lot's changed in the last 20 years, not the least of which has been this proliferation of modern applications, okay? Which are geo-distributed microservices oriented and the rapid proliferation of multicloud. That disrupts that traditional notion of data management specifically backup and recovery. That's what we're going after with RecoverX. RecoverX 2.5 is the most recent version. News on three fronts. One is on our advanced recovery, and we can double-click into those. But it's essentially all about giving you more data awareness, more granularity to what data you wanna recover and where you wanna put it, which becomes very important in the multicloud world. Number two is what we call data center aware backup and recovery. That's all about supporting geo-distributed application environments, which again, is the new normal in the cloud. And then number three is around enterprise hardening, specifically around security. So, it's all about us increased flexibility and new capabilities for the multicloud environment and continue to enterprise-harden the product. >> Okay, so you guys say significant upgrade. >> Peter: Yep. >> I wanna just look at that. I'm also pretty critical, and you know how I feel on this so don't take it personal, multicloud is not a real deal yet. It's in statement of value that customers are saying-- It's coming! But cloud is here today, regular cloud. So, multicloud ... Well, what is multicloud actually mean? I mean, I can have multiple clouds but I'm not actually moving workloads across clouds, yet. >> I disagree. >> Okay. >> I actually disagree. We have multiple customers. >> All right, debunk that. >> I will debunk that. Number one use case for RecoverX is backup and recovery. But with a twist of the fact that it's for these modern applications running these geo-distributed environments. Which means it's not about backing up my data center, it's about, I need to make a copy of my data but I wanna back it up in the cloud. I'm running my application natively in the cloud, so I want a backup in the cloud. I'm running my application in the cloud but I actually wanna backup from the cloud back to my private cloud. So, that in lies a backup and recovery, and operation recovery use case that involves multicloud. That's number one. Number two use case for RecoverX is what we talk about on data mobility. >> So, you have a different definition of multicloud. >> Sorry, what was your-- Our definition of multicloud is fundamentally a customer using multiple clouds, whether it be a private on-prem GCP, AWS, Oracle, any mix and match. >> I buy that. I buy that. Where I was getting critical of was a workload. >> Okay. >> I have a workload and I'm running it on Amazon. It's been architected for Amazon. Then I also wanna run that same workload on Azure and Google. >> Okay. >> Or Oracle or somewhere else. >> Yep. >> I have to re-engineer it (laughs) to move, and I can't share the data. So, to me what multicloud means, I can run it anywhere. My app anywhere. Backup is a little bit different. You're saying the cloud environments can be multiple environments for your solution. >> That is correct. >> So, you're looking at it from the other perspective. >> Correct. The way we define ourselves is application-centric data management. And what that essentially means is we don't care what the underlying infrastructure is. So, if you look at traditional backup and recovery products they're LUN-based. So, I'm going to backup my storage LUN. Or they're VM-based. And a lot of big companies made a lot of money doing that. The problem is they are no LUN's and VM's in hybrid cloud or multicloud environment. The only thing that's consistent across application, across cloud-environments is the data and the applications that are running. Where we focus is we're 100% application-centric. So, we integrate at the database level. The database is the foundation of any application you create. We integrate there, which makes us agnostic to the underlying infrastructure. We run, just as examples, we have customers running next generation applications on-prem. We have customers running next generation applications on AWS in GCP. Any permutation of the above, and to your point about back to the multicloud we've got organizations doing backup with us but then we also have organizations using us to take copies of their backup data and put them on whatever clouds they want for things like test and refresh. Or performance testing or business analytics. Whatever you might wanna do. >> So, you're pretty flexible. I like that. So, we talked before on other segments, and certainly even this morning about modern stacks. >> Yeah. >> Modern applications. This is the big to-do item for all CXOs and CIOs. I need a modern infrastructure. I need modern applications. I need modern developers. I need modern everything. Hyper, micro, ultra. >> Whatever buzz word you use. >> But you guys in this announcement have a couple key things I wanna just get more explanation on. One, advanced recovery, backup anywhere, recover anywhere, and you said enterprise-grade security is the third thing. >> Yep. >> So, let's just break them down one at a time. Advanced recovery for Datos 2.5, RecoverX 2.5. >> Yep. >> What is advanced recovery? >> It's very specifically about providing high levels of granularity for recovering your data, on two fronts. So, the use case is, again, backup. I need to recover data. But I don't wanna necessarily recover everything. I wanna get smarter about the data I wanna recover. Or it could be for non-operational use cases, which is I wanna spin up a copy of data to run test dev or to do performance testing on. What advanced recovery specifically means is number one, we've introduced the notion of queryble recovery. And what that means is that I can say things like star dot John star. And the results returning from that, because we're application-centric, and we integrated the database, we give you visibility to that. I wanna see everything star dot John star. Or I wanna recover data from a very specific row, in a very specific column. Or I want to mask data that I do not wanna be recovered and I don't want people to see. The implications of that are think about that from a performance standpoint. Now, I only recover the data I need. So, I'm very, very high levels of granularity based upon a query. So, I'm fast from an RTO standpoint. The second part of it is for non-operational requirements I only move the data that is select to that data set. And number three is it helps you with things like GDPR compliance and PII compliance because you can mask data. So, that's query-based recovery. That's number one. The second piece of advanced recovery is what we call incremental recovery. That is granular recovery based upon a time stamp. So, you can get within individual points in time. So, you can get to a very high level of granularity based upon time. So, it's all about visibility. It's your data and getting very granular in a smart way to what you wanna recover. So, if I kind of hear what you're saying, what you're saying is essentially you built in the operational effectiveness of being effective operationally. You know, time to backup recovery, all that good RTO stuff. Restoring stuff operationally >> Peter: Very quickly. >> very fast. >> Peter: In a smart way. >> So, there's a speed game there which is table stakes. But you're real value here is all these compliance nightmares that are coming down the pike, GDPR and others. There's gonna be more. >> Peter: Absolutely. I mean, it could be HIPPA, it could be GDPR, anything that involves-- >> Policy. >> Policies. Anything that requires, we're completely policy-driven. And you can create a policy to mask certain data based upon the criteria you wanna put in. So, it's all about-- >> So you're the best of performance, and you got some tunability. >> And it's all about being data aware. It's all about being data aware. So, that's what advanced recovery is. >> Okay, backup anywhere, recover anywhere. What does that mean? >> So, what that means is the old world of backup and recovery was I had a database running in my data center. And I would say database please take a snapshot of yourself so I can make a copy. The new world of cloud is that these microservices-based modern applications typically run, they're by definition distributed, And in many cases they run distributed across they're geo-distributed. So, what data center aware backup and recovery is, use a perfect example. We have a customer. They're running their eCommerce. So, leading online restaurant reservations company. They're running their eCommerce application on-prem, interestingly enough, but it's based on Cassandra distributed database. Excuse me, MongoDB. Sorry. They're running geo-distributed, sharded MongoDB clusters. Anybody in the traditional backup and recovery their head would explode when you say that. In the modern application world, that's a completely normal use case. They have a data center in the U.S. They have a data center in the U.K. What they want is they wanna be able to do local backup and recovery while maintaining complete global consistency of their data. So again, it's about recovery time ultimately but it's also being data aware and focusing only on the data that you need to backup and recovery. So, it's about performance but then it's also about compliance. It's about governance. That's what data center aware backup is. >> And that's a global phenomenon people are having with the GO. >> Absolutely. Yeah, you could be within country. It could be any number of different things that drive that. We can do it because we're data aware-- >> And that creates complexity for the customer. You guys can take that complexity away >> Correct. >> From the whole global, regional where the data can sit. >> Correct. I'd say two things actually. To give the customers credit, the customers building these apps or actually getting a lot smarter about what they're data is and where they're data is. >> So they expect this feature? >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I wouldn't call it table stakes cause we're the only kids on the block that can do it. But this is in direct response to our customers that are building these new apps. I wanna get into some of the environmental and customer drivers in a second. I wanna nail the last segment down. Cause I wanna unpack the whole why is this trend happening? What's the gestation period? What's the main enabler for you? But okay, final point on the significant announcements. My favorite topic enterprise-grade security. What the hell does that mean? First of all, from your standpoint the industry's trying to solve the same thing. Enterprise-grade security, what are you guys providing in this? >> Number one, it's basically security protocol. So, TLS and SSL. This is weed stuff. TLS, SSL, so secure protocol support. It's integration with LDAP. So, if organizations are running, primarily if they're running on-prem and they're running in an LDAP environment, we're support there. And then we've got Kerberos support for Kerberos authentication. So, it's all about just checking the boxes around the different security >> So, this is like in between >> and transport protocol. >> the toes, the details around compliance, identity management. >> Peter: Bingo. >> I mean we just had Centrify's CyberConnect conference, and you're seeing a lot of focus on identity. >> Absolutely. And the reason that that's sort of from a market standpoint the reason that these are very important now is because the applications that we're supporting these are not science experiments. These are eCommerce applications. These are core business applications that mainstream enterprises are running, and they need to be protected and they're bringing the true, classic enterprise security, authentication, authorization requirements to the table. >> Are you guys aligning with those features? Or is there anything significant in that section? >> From an enterprise security standpoint? It's primarily about we provide the support, so we integrate with all of those environments and we can check the boxes. Oh, absolutely TLS. Absolutely, we've got that box checked because-- >> So, you're not competing with other cybersecurity? >> No, this is purely we need to do this. This is part of our enterprise-- >> This is where you partner. >> Peter: Well, no. For these things it's literally just us providing the protocol support. So, LDAP's a good example. We support LDAP. So, we show up and if somebody's using my data management-- >> But you look at the other security solutions as a way to integrate with? >> Yeah. >> Not so much-- >> Absolutely, no. This has nothing to do with the competition. It's just supporting ... I mean Google has their own protocol, you know, security protocols, so we support those. So, does Amazon. >> I really don't want to go into the customer benefits. We'll let the folks go to the Datos website, d-a-t-o-s dot i-o is the website, if you wanna check out all their customer references. I don't wanna kind of drill on that. I kind of wanna really end this segment on the real core issue for me is reading the tea leaves. You guys are different. You're now kind of seeing some traction and some growth. You're a new kind of animal in the zoo, if you will. (Peter laughs) You've got a relevant product. Why is it happening now? And I'm trying to get to understanding Cloud Oss is enabling a lot of stuff. You guys are an effect of that, a data point of what the cloud is enabled as a venture. Everything that you're doing, the value you create is the function of the cloud. >> Yes. >> And how data is moving. Where's this coming from? Is it just recently? Is it a gestation period of a few years? Where did this come from? You mentioned some comparisons like Oracle. >> So, I'll answer that in sort of, we like to use history as our guide. So, I'll answer that both in macro terms, and then I'll answer it in micro terms. From a macro term standpoint, this is being driven by the proliferation of new data sources. It's the easiest way to look at it. So, if you let history be your guide. There was about a seven to eight year proliferation or gap between proliferation of Oracle as the primary traditional relational database data source and the advent of Veritas who really defined themselves as the defacto standard for traditional on-prem data center relational data management. You look at that same model, you'll look at the proliferation of VMware. In the late 90s, about a seven to eight year gestation with the rapid adoption of Veeam. You know the early days a lot of folks laughed at Veeam, like, "Who's gonna backup VMs? People aren't gonna use VMs in the enterprise. Now, you looked at Veeam, great company. They've done some really tremendous things carving out much more than a niche providing backup and recovery and availability in a VM-based environment. The exact same thing is happening now. If you go back six to seven years from now, you had the early adoption of the MongoDBs, the Cassandras, the Couches. More recently you've got a much faster acceleration around the DynamoDBs and the cloud databases. We're riding that same wave to support that. >> This is a side effect of the enabling of the growth of cloud. >> Yes. >> So, similar to what you did in VMware with VMs and database for Oracle you guys are taking it to the next level. >> These new data sources are completely driven by the fact that the cloud is enabling this completely distributed, far more agile, far more dynamic, far less expensive application deployment model, and a new way of providing data management is required. That's what we do. >> Yeah, I mean it's a function of maturity, one. As Jeff Rickard, General Manager of theCube, always says, when the industry moves to it's next point of failure, in this case failure is problem and you solve. So, the headaches that come from the awesomeness of the growth. >> Absolutely. And to answer that micro-wise briefly. So, that was the macro. The micro is the proliferation of, the movement from monolithic apps to microservices-based app, it's happening. And the cloud is what's enabling them. The move from traditional on-prem to hybrid cloud is absolutely happening. That's by definition the cloud. The third piece which is cloud-centric is the world's moving from a scale up world to an elastic-compute, elastic storage model. We call that the modern IT stack. Traditional backup and recovery, traditional data management doesn't work in the new modern IT stack. That's the market we're planning. That's the market we're disrupting is all that traditional stuff moving to the modern IT stack. >> Okay, Datos IO announcing a 2.5 release of RecoverX, their flagship product, their start up growing out of Los Gatos. Peter Smails here, the CMO. Where ya gonna be next? What's going on-- I know we're gonna see you re:Invent in a week in a half. >> Absolutely. So, we've got two stops. Well, actually the next stop on the tour is re:Invent. So, absolutely looking forward to being back on theCUBE at re:Invent. >> And the company feels good about those things are good. You've got good money in the bank. You're growing. >> We feel fantastic. It's fascinating to watch as things develop. The conversations we have now versus even six months ago. It's sort of the tipping point of people get it. You sort of explain, "Oh, yeah it's data management from modern applications. Are you deploying modern applications?" Absolutely. >> Share one example to end this segment on what you hear over and over again from customers that illuminates what you guys are about as a company, the DNA, the value preposition, and their impact on results and value for customers. >> So, I'll use a case study as an example. You know, we're the world's largest home improvement retailers. Old way, was they ran their multi-billion dollar eCommerce infrastructure. Running on IBM Db2 database. Running in their on-prem data center. They've moved their world. They're now running, they've re-architected their application. It's now completely microservices-based running on Cassandra, deployed 100% in Google cloud platform. And they did that because they wanted to be more agile. They wanted to be more flexible. It's a far more cost effective deployment model. They are all in on the cloud. And they needed a next generation backup and recovery data protection, data management solution which is exactly what we do. So, that's the value. Backup's not a new problem. People need to protect data and they need to be able to take better advantage of the data. >> All right, so here's the final, final question. I'm a customer watching this video. Bottom line maybe, I'm kind of hearing all this stuff. When do I call you? What are the signals? What are the little smoke signals I see in my organization burning? When do I need to call you guys, Datos? >> You should call Datos IO anytime, if you're doing anything with development of modern applications, number one. If you're doing anything with hybrid cloud you should call us. Because you're gonna need to reevaluate your overall data management strategy it's that simple. >> All right, Peter Smails, the CMO of Datos, one of the hot companies here in Silicon Valley, out of Los Gatos, California. Of course, we're in Palo Alto at theCube Studios. I'm John Furrier. This is theCUBE conversation. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's the Cube, covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage of PentahoWorld brought to you by Hitachi Vantara I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host James Kobielus. We're joined by Dr. Allaa Hilal She is the Director of Innovation at IMS Thanks so much for coming on the Cube Allaa >> Thanks, I'm excited to be here. >> So you described you mission this morning, as is, the mission to enable the connected car. Tell our viewers what is the connected car? >> That is a very interesting question. So, to us, to us at IMS, we define the connected vehicle in a little bit of a different way. So, most people define it as being connected to the internet. But, having it connected to the internet is not very useful to us drivers. But having it connected to you, the driver, is the key, is the essential point. And this is how we define the connected vehicle. So, if it's, by connecting to you, we need to connect it to the internet, then that's a by product. But the key is giving you an actionable insights as you're driving along, doing you daily commute. And as I mentioned this morning, you spend about four point five years, of you life, in a vehicle. That's a long time. It's a lot of time on your behalf. So, if you, if we are able to make this commute, or your time in a vehicle more productive, then you get to enjoy this ride a little bit more. >> So augmenting the driver, or passengers, experience with analytics, as opposed to what people usually think of, which is self-driving autonomous vehicles, am I-- >> So, it's one step of the way. You cannot have an autonomous vehicle without having connected vehicles. Because, if you think about it, if you're having autonomous vehicle that has a horrible user experience, then what are you really doing? Right? Nobody will want to ride it. So. >> So, talk about, what are some examples of these actionable insights that you could give someone as their driving along? >> So, imagine this: so, if you're driving in the middle of highway, and you, and we know your destination in advance, but we know that there's no parking space, and we can redirect you to another parking spot. That's an actionable insight that would be useful. If we now that you're driving, and because of the way you're driving, your premiums will go up because you impose a little bit more higher risk, we can give you coaching, and feed-back on how you can get to be a better driver and save some money. Think about it another way. You can be driving in harsh breaking, harsh acceleration, imposing wear and tear on your tires. That will cost you money because you would need to change them. If we give you this information early on, you're incentivized to change your behavior a little bit to prolong the lifetime of your vehicle, as well as save some gas. >> So, IMS is a long-time IOT customer, can you tell us how you've been able to stay relevant? >> Oh, that's a very interesting question. So, definitely some, it's been an interesting, ever-changing market. So, we focus on delivering a suite of services. Not just one service, with one provider. We actually provide a suite of services, and we can enable different one at different times. So we're not just a usage-based company, we're a connected car company. That means that we enable road-usage charging. So, you know road-usage charging, right? So, like, multiple states in North America, as well as in Europe, different countries, are focused now on having road chargings. Instead of you paying the gas-tax, at the gas pump every time you put gas in the car, to off-set the cost of the infrastructure, you pay the road-usage charge. >> Rebecca: A toll. >> A toll. Well, similar to a toll, but it's different because you're already paying it somehow. So, a toll is choice, you need to take this road, you pay the tolls for it >> James: Yes. >> But, for road-usage charging, it's trying to have a fair system to offset the cost of the infrastructure. The way it was done before, using the gas-tax, everybody had to use gas, everybody buys gas, and then they pay a little bit of money that goes to the infrastructure. Now you have hybrid vehicles, now we have fuel efficient vehicles, as well as you have electric vehicles, that are imposing wear and tear one the roads, but there's not money coming to the government to help offset this cost. So they are trying to have a more fair system where we all contribute to the roads that we're driving in. >> So what's the metering infrastructure to enable road-usage based, road charges? >> Okay, so, road-usage charging is actually quite interesting, so, you think it has a lot of different additional over-head that you need. But it actually is not. It's you can, we as a company, enable road-usage charging through an OBD dongle that you add on your vehicle. >> Yes, yes. >> And that's enough for us to get all the information needed. Whether it's just millage information, without GPS, again-- >> James: A diagnostic port. >> It's a diagnostic port, yes. >> Yes, yes. So it has multiple ways, right? So you can enable it, road-usage charging has multiple flavors of it. So one of them with GPS informations, so we only charge you on public roads, not private roads. So, if you have, like if you're driving on a campus, or like a big a campus at work, you're not pay, you're not charged for that. You only pay for public roads. If we don't have GPS, we do millage based approach. Where we collect this data and we provide it to the government, to do, to charge you for it. And the nice thing about it, they actually do a gas rebate, so gas-tax rebate, so you get to claim these millages, claim what you're paying for road-use charging and you rebate your gas-tax. Another flavor of it would be based on OBD two, sorry, other then OBD two, is mobile phone. So we can use the mobile phone to collect similar data and again, understand where you are, and accordingly charge you. Send the information to the government to charge you as such. >> As it relates to the internet of things that are, those are approaches, that would you, regard those are both IOT related approaches? Is there other any other, like, metering technologies that you are exploring? For gathering this data, in a way that's more or less invisible? >> So, I would definitely consider this as an IOT because, again, the IOT is having the sensors embedded in multiple services. >> Yes, yes. So, definitely to me, that's an IOT application. That being said, there are existing tooling approaches which are like cameras, and sensors, at entry points, and exit points. These are road-side infrastructures, you can also have, like, lane, high occupancy lanes, where, if you're in it they can take a picture, or sense how many people are in the vehicle. So, there are a lot of technologies that enables road-usage charging. That being said, I think using an OBD two, or a mobile phone is one of the most seamless things that you can use simply because you plug it in once, and you don't have to interact with it. >> So how is Pentaho, how are partnered with Pentaho to manage all this data, to drive these programs? >> Actually, that's an interesting question. >> Yeah exactly! >> We're at PentahoWorld, so This is the right question to ask here. (laughs) So, Pentaho has helped us to accelerate the ETL: the extract, transform, and load process. Especially since we're collecting data from diverse sources, from heterogeneous platforms, whether it's from an OBD two, from a mobile phone, or even from vehicles themselves. So collecting data from all of this different sources, Pentaho enabled us to ingest it fast, extract it, transform it, and load it. It also helped with with, data integration. So, the pentaho data integration platform helped us to work with multiple sources. Get stuff fast, get it ready. And, above all, it helped with the visualization because, we work with different clients, and each of them require a different report, or view of the data, in aggregated ways. Pentaho definitely helped us accelerate and adapt fast to the requirement of our clients. >> Are the clients, are they fleet managers? Are the clients insurance companies? Just give us a sense of the sort of dashboards you provide to them. And I'm using "dashboards" in a double entendre sense. To what extent can this technology be embedded in the dashboards of the future? Connected cars. To help drivers and passengers to modify their behavior while their using the road system. >> So I will answer that onto two parts. So the first, who are our clients? So we work with, definitely, insurance companies, some of the top ones in the world. Which would need data in a different form. We work with governments, we provide them for road-usage charging, for example, work with governments, so we provide them a different view of the data as their requirement. Work with fleet managers, fleet insurance company, which is commercial lines. We also provide information to the end-driver, to the end-user, because, how can you change, help them change their behavior? How can you give them actionable insights if your not interacting with them? So all of these are different end-points to our data and how we're exposing it. Regarding, what can we show in the dashboard, if you thin about it, today in some sense we're showing some information, we're showing, actually, a lot of information. So we have the mobile app, that acts as an interface, or a touch-point between us and the end-user. Because, at the end of the day, the end-user is the one who owns the data, it's not IMS, it's the end-user who owns the data. And he's allowing us to use it to give him insights to get insurance discounts or, know how much he's being charged for road-usage charging or, like, enabled services like road-side assistance, and others. So, the mobile app, is our interaction point and we have like, screens, that show the logs of your trip, and like, what good did you do, what bad did you do. We have analytics on this behavioral side. Where are you in terms of percentile of all different drivers. So that also gives you an encouragement and we always focus on positive feed-back to help you enhance and change your driving to the better. >> What are you doing in terms of data-masking, anonymization, to protect the privacy of this data that's being processed through, through your applications. >> So, definitely I-- >> James: We're very privacy sensitive obviously. >> No, yeah, and we are very, very aware of it. We're actually-- >> And how are you using Pentaho in that regard? >> We're very, very aware of it and we're very, very security conscious. If you thin about it, who are our clients? Our insurance company who are security focused, and then governments are security focused. And so, with, when you work with like, such big companies, and big institutions, that are very aware of security, you need also, to step up and show that. And this is why, we're (mumbles) certified in many, many areas. So, we're very, very aware of privacy. We never use any PII. And our PII officer, we have a security officer that is very, very, very strict. Let me tell you that. (laughs) And, when we use data, we use it an aggregated and anonymized format. So, you cannot, and we use differential privacy on it, so you cannot identify one person added, or removed out of it. So we use all of these different measures. And all the data that is being sent form the device, is double encrypted on a VPN, as well as sent on a binary format to our back-end, through a secure system. Devices are unhackable because they are designed such as that you cannot receive input. It's just made to send out input. So we work on privacy and security. We are actually privacy and security focused institute. And this is why we have been chosen by top tier insurers, as well as governments, to work with. >> So how far are we from fully autonomous vehicles? I mean, in your keynote, you talked about how actually people think we're further along in the journey then we actually are. But can you walk us through, the next, sort of next steps, and then give us an estimate? >> Tell me when to ditch my car right now >> Yeah, exactly! That's what I want to know. >> Okay, that's an interesting question, I'm sure it's a very controversial one, because, everybody would have a different opinion. I know somebody on my team, and if he's watching he would say "In the next three years and I will have "my next autonomous vehicle." and it all falls back to the definition of autonomy, right? So there, as I mentioned this morning, there are five levels of autonomy. So level zero is having no autonomy whatsoever. So it's like you 1970 or 1960 car, that you drive, you enjoy, but, it does nothing except enables you to drive. You have them, your level one autonomy, which will enable one feature only, so, it's either cruise-control, automatic breaking. One thing to assist you. So it's one thing. The you have level two, that enables two or more things at the same time, but you need to be fully alert and aware. Level three, while it can drive a little bit autonomously, but you need to be alert, fully engaged and ready to engage at any time. Ready to go at any time. Level four, it is autonomous under certain conditions. So, for example, autonomous on highway, or autonomous in specific cities, but not autonomous in others. Level five is autonomous everywhere, all the time. This is what we all are waiting for. Where we can sit-- >> I want tenterhooks. >> Exactly. Where you can-- >> Yes, I want to sleep while I'm driving (laughs) >> I want to bing on Netflix or catch-up on all the reading >> Right. Exactly. >> I have a lot of Game of Thrones on my, yes. >> Exactly. (laughs) Exactly. So, it depends on how you define autonomy, and this is where defines where we are on the progress. So, if you look at Tesla and Google car, we're actually somewhere between level two and level three. Multiple systems are engaged, but you need to be fully alert and ready to intervene at any time. We're still not at the phase where you can lay back and relax and sleep. >> What is your opinion, finally, how many years are we looking? >> Okay, depends on the levels, so if I say level three, yeah, well, we have it. Now, >> Yeah (laughs) If we are talking about-- >> You're hedging >> (laughs) level four, I would expect, okay, so level four and level five has its challenges. Level four, I would expect it to be between five to 10 years, somewhere in between. But level five is a little bit further. And the reason is multiple things: I would say 15 to 20, and I'll tell you why. Number one, you would have multiple cars coexisting on the road. And humans decisions are subjective, and are not always predictable. So, you would always need to default to human intervention when needed. Road infrastructure takes a long time to be developed, and for government investment. Third one, you need human acceptance, and trust into these systems, so I can trust my six-year-old daughter to sit there and I would not be afraid for her life. So, these things take time to develop, and this is hwy I'm saying 15 to 20 years. >> Okay, you heard it hear first folks. Alright? 15 to 20 years. >> Great >> I'm all for it. Allaa, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. It was a great conversation. >> I really enjoyed it so much. Thanks for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for James Kobielus, we will have more form the Cube at PentahoWorld in just a little bit. (electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from the Javits Center in New York City, it's The Cube, covering Inforum 2017. Brought to you by Infor. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Inforum. I am your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Dave Vellante. We're joined by Terry Wise. He is the Vice President of Alliances for AWS. Thanks so much for coming on the program again. >> It's great to be here, yeah, thanks. >> So we are now a few years into this relationship with Infor. Where are we? Put things in perspective for us. >> Oh it's a great question. I think in some respects, this is arguably the most mature and strategic relationship we have. We've been working with Infor for, I've been at Amazon now nine years, and a better part of my nine years, we've been working with Infor, you know. In the early days it was awesome, before Infor bought the company. And, they've always done a great job of pushing us to be more enterprise-centric, more innovative in our platform and services. So it's very mature from that perspective. But I'd say, also at the same time, we're just entering a whole new days. We'd like to call it Day One at Amazon. If you look at some of the things that Charles and the team announced today with Coleman, and some of the new functionality and the growth of the cloud, I mean, we really are still at the early stages of this relationship, which is exciting. >> You know what's interesting to me Terry is, you know, Andy always talks about the fly wheel. He was, sort of, the first to use that terminology. And I was sitting in the endless meeting yesterday, and Infor was going through its architecture. And I just saw a lot of fly wheel in there. I mean, there is DynamoDB in there. I certainly saw S3. I think there was Kinesis, in terms of time series stuff. I think I saw Redshift in there. And so I wonder if you could talk about how this company, specifically, but generally, how people are leveraging net fly wheel of innovation to drive value for their customers. >> Yeah. And again, I think this goes back to the relationship we've had with Infor for so many years. Cloud is not just about cheap computing storage. It's really about platform and innovation that comes from that platform. And, you know, and partners and customers, like Infor, that have been with us a while, and they've got the skillsets internally, they've got great vision for how they want to take their customers with application functionality. They're really ripe to be able to take advantage of all the innovative platform services we build. Kinesis, Lambda for serverless computing. We're talking about some neat things around Edge. You heard Charles and Duncan today talk about Lex and some of the AI capabilities we have that are underpinning Coleman and some other new offerings. So they really are, kind of, the poster child for adopting our new services and driving innovation on top of our platform for their customer base. >> So where, if you can, look into your crystal ball a little bit. Where will we be a year from now, three years from now, with these technologies? >> So if I look out a year, I think, you know, rapid global expansion. You know, we're long past in many respects, sort of the, the early questions around cloud. Is it secure? Is it cost-effective? Is it robust and reliable? We're really past that if I look out across the globe. And now it's a question of how can we help enterprises adapt faster. And that's really, probably, the single biggest question I get from enterprise customers is, "This is great. Help me move quickly." And I think one of the neat things about the Infor relationship is, because they've packaged all of this innovation, into a set of business applications, they're actually helping customers move to the cloud quite a bit faster, and get that great value prop of cost efficiency, security, innovation, et cetera. Looking out three years, I think Duncan and the team did a very nice job today talking about the interaction ad user experience of how you're going to engage with business software moving forward. It's going to be very voice-driven. It's going to be predictive in nature so it's actually going to tell you what you need to think about versus going to a terminal or even a mobile device. So much left to do in that space. But I really do think, you know, three years from now, machine-learning won't be a buzz word, nor will artificial intelligence. It'll just be a bigger part of our daily lives. >> We were talking to Chip Coyle a little bit about trying to debunk some of the myths in cloud, specifically Amazon cloud. And I mentioned Oracle, saying that core enterprise apps really aren't going to the cloud, that's why you need Oracle. And they've got a strategy to do that, you've seen it. But then you going to see Infor, 55% of their business is in your cloud. They look like core enterprise apps. So is it, my question is, help us debunk that myth. But is it narrowly confined to companies like Infor, or are there examples of others? I mean, certainly there are companies, you guys have unbelievable logo chart. But when you peel back the onion, many of those apps are cloud-native or emerging apps. Those core of enterprise apps, we're seeing it from Infor. I wonder if you can add some color to that and are there other examples? >> Absolutely, I mean, I think there's others in the market that may be uncomfortable with the change that's happening with cloud, and therefore might be incented to try to slow that down. But I will say, the vast majority of all software companies we're engaging with are moving mission-critical enterprise apps to AWS. Some built natively in SaaS, like Infor is done. Others that are enabling, certifying their applications, SAP is another good example. You can kind of go across the stack, Adobe, AutoDesk, Siemens PLM, for product lifecycle management. And if you think about, you know, that's putting companies' core IP, the product development into the cloud to take advantage of all this agility, scale, cost-savings, et cetera. So it's been happening for a long time. Di-so is another great one, very innovative but somewhat conservative french company. They were very early on in the journey with us. And again, that's, you know, IP used to design airplanes, the things we fly around it. So it's been happening for a long time. It's accelerating. And I would say the other trend we're seeing is the companies out there that are resisting, we're hearing more and more from customers that, "Hey, that company is not helping move me to the future. Can you help me find an alternative?" So there's this big movement for enterprises to actually migrate out of legacy platforms, whether that's hardware or software, and move in to the cloud-native platforms, which are the future. >> So we see, we've been talking on The Cube for years about this whole digital transformation and how it's going to allow companies to play in different industries. Amazon, obviously. Retailer just purchased Whole Foods, getting into grocery. It's a content company. So Walmart said, "Alright, we're not going to put our stuff "in the Amazon cloud." Netflix obviously does. How do you deal with that? The obvious competitive fears of some of the customers that you have for AWS? How do you message that? And what do you tell the world? >> Sure, the first thing is, I mean, AWS, while it is part of Amazon.com, we are a separate operating group. And we've been that way since the beginning. So yeah, Amazon is a customer, just like Netflix or Nordstrom, or any of the other, you know, millions that we serve. Now a very hard customer and a very good customer. And they help drive our innovation road map. But we don't treat them any differently than we do, Netflix or the others. And part of that has to do with how we protect and secure the information that those companies put on AWS. So there's some companies out there, the one you just mentioned, that's still may be a bit uncomfortable, for whatever reasons, competitive reasons, putting information or having third parties put information related to their business on AWS. Yeah, I think that's unfortunate, I think. And it also talks about two different philosophies. We take very much a customer-centric view of the business. What's best for the customer. And if one of our partners has a better capability, we've got plenty of partners that have similar products to what we offer, but if it's the better product for the customer, we're more than happy to support that. Whereas others out there take a very competitive focus to the market. Where it's, they're watching what their competitors are doing. They're trying to head them off at the pass, or copy what their competitors are doing. In the long term, I don't think that's a fantastic strategy 'coz you're never really innovating on behalf of the customer. You're never giving them the best solution. You're actually preventing them from getting something that could be beneficial to that customer. And we just don't believe that's a long-term great business strategy for our customers and for ourselves. >> We recently saw the announcement of Amazon purchasing Whole Foods. Can you talk a little bit about this for our viewers. And talk about where, how you see the future of grocery and retail, where it's going. >> Sure, so we've announced our intention to purchase Whole Foods. It has not happenned. There's still some work to do there. But I think, you know, anytime we look at, you know, how we're going to expand, either organically or through acquisition, it's about, what are the synergies between our existing business, what the customers are looking for, and how can we create a better experience for that customer. How can we do it at scale? How can we innovate around that model? And then, you know, how can we make that a great long-term experience for the customer that ultimately drives the success and growth of our business, but also the partners that we bring in, whether again through acquisition or through third party partnership. This is kind of a, you look at this as a natural move as we look at what our customers are telling us, "Hey make it easier for us to purchase groceries and "household items." You know, and do it in a hybrid way, both, you know, combination of online and more from the physical presence. >> Terry I wonder if you could talk about, we mentioned the Edge before. And as you build out your partner strategy and the partner ecosystem. Talk more about the Edge, where it fits. Analytics at the Edge, and Amazon being the cloud, so what's your point of view on what happens at the Edge, what moves back to the cloud, the expense of moving things back to the cloud. What's your thought on that whole thing? >> Well, there's so many use cases for Edge computing. I mean, take the mining industry. You're putting huge trucks in the middle of nowhere that may have limited or very expensive connectivity. And they're capturing all kinds of, you know, information, during the natural operation of that machine. And it just makes sense that you want some level of data processing, storage, and analytics to happen on that machine. It could be a cruise ship, it could be a naval vessel, it could be an airplane. There's, you know, lots and lots of different applications there. But by doing some of that processing at the Edge, you're actually limiting the amount of data you have to send back to the central cloud. But of course, if you want to take full advantage of the analytics, you actually have to match that data with all the historical data and other real-time data that's resided in the cloud to get the result you're looking for. So it really becomes, you know, kind of this hybrid computing model. So some of it is efficiency around how much data you're sending back and forth. Some of it is just efficiency around processing, the point of data capture. Some due to connectivity reasons. Some due to other. It really is kind of this interesting new extension of hybrid cloud, if you will. We're very excited about it. >> You've made some moves in that area. I mean, Snowball was, I think, you know, one of the first. And there are other sort of Edge, what I would consider Edge-like devices or solutions. How dogmatic are you about everything living in the cloud? I mean, those are steps. Should we expect, you know, increasingly extending the reach of the cloud or is it just really going to all, your world come back to the AWS clouds? >> Yeah, yeah. It'll certainly be an extension of the cloud. That's already been happening. I mean, if you look at hybrid cloud. I think we've always been a supporter of hybrid cloud if you look at our roadmap going back many, many years with virtual private cloud, with Direct Connect, with some of the newer capabilities like Snowball, and, of course, Greengrass, our Edge capabilities. We're really extending the reach out to be much more of a hybrid store. 'Coz we recognize that not all the data today exist in the cloud or AWS in the future, you know. We think most applications will run in the cloud because the value proposition is so strong across so many different dimensions. But today, there's plenty of other places we have to connect to, again to capture the data. Now, I do think the vast majority of the data that we're capturing will be either pre-processed or sent natively into AWS to create a massive data leg so that you can start to drive these innovative machine-learning and artificial intelligence applications. The predictive analytics, the algorithms. They just don't work if you don't, they don't work effectively if you don't have massive amounts of data and you continuously refresh that data so that the algorithms can continue to learn. >> I want to double click on something you said about the value. To capture most of the value, your belief is that it's going to be in the cloud, one cloud. And others obviously have different view for a variety of different reasons. I buy the cost argument. You didn't make that argument, I'm making it. The marginal cost of having a single cloud. You know, standard, how much an A it is, superior. I'll grant that. What else is there though? Is it speed? Is it innovation? Is it standardization across the base? >> The single biggest value that I hear from customers today, but they love it, they love the cheap hosting fees, the efficiency part of it, but it really is the speed and agility. It's certainly the security model as well. I would say that most, almost every organization now that we talk to, once we've had the chance to educate them, if they haven't already done so themselves, has determined that the cloud-computing security model is much more effective than they could deliver on their own. We can just invest more. We can experiment more. We can have have multiple certifications across different industries, which every customer gets to take advantage of. But I would just come back, it's the ability to move quickly whether it's moving into new market. I was just in Europe, we were talking about it. It's so volatile there right now on so many dimensions with Brexit and some of the nationalistic politics things that are happening. Potentially the opening up more of the Middle East with the sovereign wealth funds comin' into play. There's just so much opportunity that enterprises need to be able to move quickly. And if they have to go stand up a data center somewhere else, or they can't deploy the software quickly, they're at a competitive disadvantage. So the single biggest driver from what I hear from customers and what I'm seeing is agility. >> Yeah, okay, so just to clarify, I said, cost not price. But we can debate that some other time. (Terry laughs) You just came back from Europe. You mentioned Brexit. What about things like GDPR which has taken effect but the penalties go in effect May of 18. Obviously that puts a lot of pressure on the cloud provider, as well as your customers. What are you hearing in Europe? And generally and specifically GDPR. >> Yeah, I mean, I would say the regulatory environment everywhere, but specifically in Europe, continues to evolve and it's fairly fluid. We've spent many years working with the various different regulatory bodies. The Article 29 Working Party. That's actually been crafting a lot of this legislation. So we're heavily influencing, because, if you step back, people said you couldn't do cloud, but they didn't explicitly say you could. (Rebecca and Dave laugh) So, customers are meant to, "How do I interpret this?" And some, you know, like, if I look at Nel, and I look at Societe Generale, and I look at BMW, and some of, you know, our forward-leaning European customers, Siemens is another great one, who was one of the original companies to put PII in the cloud. Here's a big German company putting PII in AWS a number of years ago. So we figured out how to get, not get around, but interpret the regulations, and then also ensure that we've got the features and capabilities to make sure that they comply with those regulations. So the full audit trail, the ability to encrypt data, the ability to make sure that data storage and localization is complying with, whether it's a country-level regulation or an industry-level regulation. So we continue to spend a lot of time and effort, monitoring and influencing that. And then building the services to make sure our customers fully comply. >> Well, you've always done well with permutations and complexity and automating that, so it's going to be fun to watch. >> Rebecca: It will indeed. >> Great. >> Terry thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun talking to you. >> Yeah, great, thanks, appreciate it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante. We will have more from Inforum just after this. (upbeat music)

>> (Narrator) Live, from Boston, Massachusetts it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to Boston everybody, this is Red Hat Summit, and this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Dave Vellante, with my cohost Stu Miniman, and John Hodgson is here, he's the Senior Director of IT Program Management at Optum technology. John good to see ya. >> Good, it's good to be here. >> Fresh off the keynote, we were just talking about the large audience, a very large audience here. And Optum, you described a little bit at the keynote what Optum is with healthcare, sort of technology arm. Which is not super common but not uncommon in your world. But describe Optum and where it fits. >> So in the grand scheme of things within UnitedHealth Group you know, we have the parent company, of course, you know the Health Group, our insurance side, that does insurance, whether it's public sector for large corporations, as well as community and state government type work as UnitedHealthcare. They do all that, and then Optum is our technology side. We do really all the development, both for supporting UHC as our main customer, you know, they're truly our focus, but we also do a lot of commercial development as well for UnitedHealthcare's competitors. So big, big group, as I mentioned in the keynote. Over 10,000 developers in the company, lots of spend, I think in the last year our, just internal IT budget was like $1.2 billion in just IT development capital. So it's huge. >> Dave: Mind-boggling. >> John, you've got that internal Optum Cloud, Can you give us just kind of the breadth and depth, you said 1.2 billion, there. What is that make up, what geographies does that span, how many people support that kind of environment? >> As far as numbers of people supporting it, I think we've got a few hundred in our Enterprise Technology Services Group, that supports Optum Cloud. We started Optum Cloud probably a half a dozen years ago, and it's gone through its different iterations. And part of my job right now is all about Enterprise Cloud adoption and migration. So, we started with our own environment, we call it UCI, United, it was supposed to be Converged Infrastructure, but I call it our Cloud Infrastructure, that's really what it is. And we've continued to enhance that. So over the last few years, I think about 3.5, four years ago, we brought in Red Hat and OpenShift. We're on our third iteration of OpenShift. Very, very stable platform for us now. But we also have Azure Stack in there as well, I think even as Paul and those guys mentioned in the keynote there's a lot of different things that you can kind of pull from each one of the technology providers to help support what we're doing, kind of take the best of breed from each one of them, and use them in each solution. >> Organizations are always complaining that they spend all this money on keeping the lights on, and they're trying to make the shift, and obviously Cloud helps them do that, and things like OpenShift, etc. What's that like in your world? How much of your effort is spent on maintenance and keeping the lights on? Sounds like you got a lot of cool, new development activity. Can you describe that dynamic for us? >> Yeah, we've got a really good support staff. Our group, SSMO, when we build an application, they kind of take it back over and run everything. We've got a fabulous support team in the background. And to that end, and it's on both sides, right? We have our UnitedHealthcare applications that we build that have kind of their own feature set, because of what it's doing internally for us, versus what we do on the OptumInsight side, where it's more commercial in nature. So they have some different needs. Some of the things that we're developing, even for Cloud Scaffolding that I mentioned in the keynote. We're kind of working on both sides of the fence, there, to hit the different technologies that each one of them really need to be successful, but doing it in a way that it doesn't if you're on one side of the fence or the other, it's a capability that everybody will be able to use. So if there's a pattern on one side that you want to be able to use for a UHC application, by all means, go ahead and grab it, take it. And a lot of what we're doing now is even kind of crowdsourcing things, and utilizing the really super intelligent people that we have, over 10,000 developers. And so many of them, we've got a lot of legacy stuff. So there's some old-school guys that are still doing their thing, but we've got a lot of new people. And they want to get their hands on the new fresh stuff, and experience that. So there's really a good vibe going on right now, with how things are changing, all the TDP folks that we're bringing in. A lot of fresh college grads and things. And they love to see the new technologies, whether it's OpenShift or whatever. Lot are really getting into DevOps, trying to make that change in a big organization is difficult, we got a little ways to go with that. But that's kind of next up. >> You're an interesting case study, because you've got a lot of the old and a lot of cool innovation going on. And is it, how do you decide when to go, because DevOps is not always the answer. Sometimes waterfall is okay, you know. So, how do you make that determination, and where do you see that going? >> That's a great question, that's actually part of what my team does. So my specific team is all about Cloud adoption and migration, so our charter is really to work across the enterprise. So whether it's OptumInsight, OptumRx, UnitedHealthcare, we are working with them to evaluate their portfolios of applications to figure out legacy applications that we have that are still strategic. They've got life in them, they've got business benefit. And we want to be able to take advantage of that, but at the same time there's some of these monolithic applications that we look at how can we take that application, decompose it down into microservices and APIs, things like that, to make it available to other applications that maybe are just greenfield, are coming out now, but still need that same technology and information. So that's really what my team is doing right now. So we sit down with those teams and go through an analysis, help them develop a road map. And sometimes that road map is two or three years long. Getting to fully cloud from where they're at right now in some of these legacy applications is a journey. And it costs money, right? There's a lot of budget concerns and things like that that go with it. So that's part of what we helped develop is a business case for each one of those applications that we can help support them going back, and getting the necessary capital to do the cloud migrations and the improvements, and really the modernization of their applications. We started the program a couple of years ago and found that if you want to hang your hat on just going from old physical infrastructure, some of the original VMs that we had. And just moving over to cloud infrastructure, and whether that's UCI, OpenShift, Azure, whatever. If you're going to do your business case on that, you're going to be writing a lot of business cases before you get one approved. It's all about modernizing the applications. So if you fold in the move to new infrastructure, cloud infrastructure, along with the ability to modernize that application, get them doing agile development, getting down the DevOps path, looking at automated testing, automated deployment, zero downtime deployments. All of those things, when you add them up together and say, okay, here's what your real benefit looks like. And you're able to present that back to the business, and show them speed to market, speed to value is a new metric that we have. Getting things out there quickly. We used to do quarterly releases, or even biannual releases. And now we're at monthly, weekly, some of our applications that are more relatively new, Health4Me, if you go to the App Store, that's kind of our big app on the App Store. There's updates on a very frequent basis. >> So that's the operating model, really, that you're talking about, essentially, driving business value. We had a practitioner on a couple weeks ago, and he said, "If you just lift and shift to the cloud, "and you don't change your operating model, "you won't get a dime." >> Stu: You're missing the boat. >> Maybe there's something, some value there, a little faster, but you're talking about serious dollars, if you can change the operating model. And that's what you've found? >> Yeah absolutely, and that's the, it's a shift, and you've got to be able to prove it to the business that's there's benefit there, and sometimes that's hard. Some of these cloud concepts and things are a little nebulous, so-- >> It's hard 'cause it's soft. >> It's soft, right, yeah, I mean, you're putting the business case together, the hard stuff is easy to document, but when you're talking about the soft benefits, and you're trying to explain to them the value that they're going to get out of their team switching from a waterfall development over to agile and DevOps, and automated testing and things like that, where I can say, "Hey listen, "you know your team over here that has been, "you know we took them out of the pocket, "from actually doing their day jobs for the last week, "because they needed to test this new version? "If I can take that out of the mix, "and they don't have to do that anymore, "and they can keep on doing what they're doing "and not get a week behind, what value is that for you?" And all of a sudden they're like, "Oh really? "We don't have to do that anymore?" I'm like, "No, we can create test scripts and stuff. "We can automate your deployment. "We can make it zero downtime. "We have," there's an application that we're working on now that has 19,000 individual desktop deployments. And we're going to automate that, turn it into a software as a service application, host it on OpenShift, and completely knock that out. I mean deployments out to 19,000 people take weeks to get done. We only do a couple thousand a week, because there's obviously going to be issues. So now you've got helpdesk tickets, you've got desktop technicians that are going round, trying to fix things, or dialing in, remoting into somebody's desktop to try to help figure that all out. We can do the whole deployment in a day, and everybody logs in the next day, and they've got the new version. That kind of value in creating real cloud-based applications is what's driving the benefit for us. And they're finally starting to really see that. And as we're doing it, more application product owners are going, "Okay, now we're getting some traction. "We heard what you did over here. "Come talk to us, and let's talk "about building a road map and figuring out what we can do." >> John, one of the questions I got from the community after watching you keynote was, they want to understand how you handle security and enforce compliance in this new cloud development model. (laughs) >> That's beyond me, all I can tell you is that we have one of the most secure clouds out there. Our private cloud is beyond secure. We're working right now to try to get the public hybrid cloud space with both AWS and Azure, and working through contracts and stuff right now. But one of the sticking points is our security has to be absolutely top notch, if we're going to do anything that has HIPAA-related data, PHI, PII, PCI, any of that, it has got to be lock-solid secure. And we have a tremendous team led by Robert Booker, he's absolutely fabulous, I mean we're, our whole goal, security-wise, is don't be the next guy on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. >> You mentioned public cloud, how do you make your decisions as to what application, what data can live in which public cloud? You said you've got Azure Stack, and you've got OpenShift. How do you make those platform decisions? >> Well right now, both OpenShift and Azure Stack are on our internal private cloud. So we're in the process of kind of making that shift to move over towards public and hybrid cloud. So I'm working with folks on our team to help develop some of those processes and determine what's actually going to be allowed. And I think in a lot of cases the PHI and protected data is going to stay internal. And we'll be able to take advantage of hosting certain parts of an application on public cloud while keeping other parts of the data really secure and protected behind our private cloud. >> Red Hat made an announcement this morning with AWS, with OpenShift. >> Sounds like that might be of interest to you, would that impact what your doing? >> Absolutely, yeah, in fact I was talking with Jim and Paul back behind the screen this morning. And we were talking about that and I was like wow that is a game changer. With what we're thinking about doing in the hybrid cloud space, having all of the AWS APIs and services and stuff available to us. Part of the objection that I get from some folks now is knowing that we have this move toward public and hybrid cloud internally, and the limitations of our cloud. We're never going to be, our private Optum Cloud is never going to be AWS or Azure, it's just not. I mean they've spent billions of dollars getting those services and stuff in place. Why would we even bother to compete with that? So we do what we do well, and a big portion of that is security. But we want to be able to expand, and take advantage of the things that they have. So that's, this whole announcement of being able to take advantage of those services natively within OpenShift? If we're able to expose that, even internally, on our own private cloud? That's going to take away a lot of the objections, I think, from even our own folks, who are waiting to do the public hybrid cloud piece. >> When the Affordable Care Act hit, did your volume spike? And as things, there's a tug of war now in Washington, it could change again, does that drive changes in your application development in terms of the volume of requests that come in, and compliance things that you have to adhere to? And if so, does having a platform that's more agile, how does that affect your ability to respond? >> Yeah it does, I mean when we first got into the ACA, there was a number of markets that we got into. And there was definitely a ramp-up in development, new things that we had to do on the exchanges. Stuff like that. I mean we even had groups from Optum that were participating directly with the federal government, because some of their exchanges were having issues, and they needed some help from us. So we had a whole team that was kind of embedded with the federal government, helping them out, just based on our experience doing it. And, yeah, having the flexibility, in our own cloud, to be able to able to spin up environments quickly, shut them down, all that, really it's invaluable. >> So the technology business moves so fast, I mean it wasn't that long ago when people saw the first virtualized servers and went Oh my gosh, this is going to change the world. And now it's like, wow we got to do better, and containers. And so you've gone for this amazing transformation, I mean, I think it was 17 developers to 1,600, which is just mind-boggling. Okay, and that's, and you've got technologies that have helped you do that, but five years down the road there's going to be a what's next. So what is next for you? As you break out your telescope, what do you see? >> God, I don't know, I mean I never would have predicted containers. >> Even though they've been around forever, we-- >> Yeah I mean when we first went to VMs, you know back in the day I was a guy in the server room, racking and stacking servers and running cables, and doing all that, so I've seen it go from one extreme to the next. And going from VMs was a huge switch. Building our own private cloud was amazing to be a part of, and now getting into the container side of things, hybrid cloud, I think for us, really, the next big step for us is the hybrid cloud. So we're in the process of getting that, I assume by the end of this year, early next, we'll be a few steps into the hybrid cloud space. And then beyond that, gosh I don't know. >> So that's really extending the operating model into that hybrid cloud notion, bringing that security that you talked about, and that's, you got a lot of work to do. >> John: That's a big task in itself. >> Let's not go too far beyond that, John. Alright well listen, thanks for coming on theCUBE, it was really a pleasure having you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me guys, appreciate it. >> You're welcome, alright keep it right there everybody, Stu and I will be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. We'll be right back. (electronic music)