>>Yeah, yeah. >>Welcome back. I'm so excited to introduce our next session empowerment through inclusion, reimagining society and technology. This is a topic that's personally very near and dear to my heart. Did you know that there's only 2% of Latinas in technology as a Latina? I know that there's so much more we could do collectively to improve these gaps and diversity. I thought spot diversity is considered a critical element across all levels of the organization. The data shows countless times. A diverse and inclusive workforce ultimately drives innovation better performance and keeps your employees happier. That's why we're passionate about contributing to this conversation and also partnering with organizations that share our mission of improving diversity across our communities. Last beyond, we hosted the session during a breakfast and we packed the whole room. This year, we're bringing the conversation to the forefront to emphasize the importance of diversity and data and share the positive ramifications that it has for your organization. Joining us for this session are thought spots Chief Data Strategy Officer Cindy Housing and Ruhollah Benjamin, associate professor of African American Studies at Princeton University. Thank you, Paola. So many >>of you have journeyed with me for years now on our efforts to improve diversity and inclusion in the data and analytic space. And >>I would say >>over time we cautiously started commiserating, eventually sharing best practices to make ourselves and our companies better. And I do consider it a milestone. Last year, as Paola mentioned that half the room was filled with our male allies. But I remember one of our Panelists, Natalie Longhurst from Vodafone, suggesting that we move it from a side hallway conversation, early morning breakfast to the main stage. And I >>think it was >>Bill Zang from a I G in Japan. Who said Yes, please. Everyone else agreed, but more than a main stage topic, I want to ask you to think about inclusion beyond your role beyond your company toe. How Data and analytics can be used to impact inclusion and equity for the society as a whole. Are we using data to reveal patterns or to perpetuate problems leading Tobias at scale? You are the experts, the change agents, the leaders that can prevent this. I am thrilled to introduce you to the leading authority on this topic, Rou Ha Benjamin, associate professor of African studies at Princeton University and author of Multiple Books. The Latest Race After Technology. Rou ha Welcome. >>Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be in conversation with you today, and I thought I would just kick things off with some opening reflections on this really important session theme. And then we could jump into discussion. So I'd like us to as a starting point, um, wrestle with these buzzwords, empowerment and inclusion so that we can have them be more than kind of big platitudes and really have them reflected in our workplace cultures and the things that we design in the technologies that we put out into the world. And so to do that, I think we have to move beyond techno determinism, and I'll explain what that means in just a minute. Techno determinism comes in two forms. The first, on your left is the idea that technology automation, um, all of these emerging trends are going to harm us, are going to necessarily harm humanity. They're going to take all the jobs they're going to remove human agency. This is what we might call the techno dystopian version of the story and this is what Hollywood loves to sell us in the form of movies like The Matrix or Terminator. The other version on your right is the techno utopian story that technologies automation. The robots as a shorthand, are going to save humanity. They're gonna make everything more efficient, more equitable. And in this case, on the surface, he seemed like opposing narratives right there, telling us different stories. At least they have different endpoints. But when you pull back the screen and look a little bit more closely, you see that they share an underlying logic that technology is in the driver's seat and that human beings that social society can just respond to what's happening. But we don't really have a say in what technologies air designed and so to move beyond techno determinism the notion that technology is in the driver's seat. We have to put the human agents and agencies back into the story, the protagonists, and think carefully about what the human desires worldviews, values, assumptions are that animate the production of technology. And so we have to put the humans behind the screen back into view. And so that's a very first step and when we do that, we see, as was already mentioned, that it's a very homogeneous group right now in terms of who gets the power and the resource is to produce the digital and physical infrastructure that everyone else has to live with. And so, as a first step, we need to think about how to create more participation of those who are working behind the scenes to design technology now to dig a little more a deeper into this, I want to offer a kind of low tech example before we get to the more hi tech ones. So what you see in front of you here is a simple park bench public bench. It's located in Berkeley, California, which is where I went to graduate school and on this particular visit I was living in Boston, and so I was back in California. It was February. It was freezing where I was coming from, and so I wanted to take a few minutes in between meetings to just lay out in the sun and soak in some vitamin D, and I quickly realized, actually, I couldn't lay down on this bench because of the way it had been designed with these arm rests at intermittent intervals. And so here I thought. Okay, the the armrest have, ah functional reason why they're there. I mean, you could literally rest your elbows there or, um, you know, it can create a little bit of privacy of someone sitting there that you don't know. When I was nine months pregnant, it could help me get up and down or for the elderly, the same thing. So it has a lot of functional reasons, but I also thought about the fact that it prevents people who are homeless from sleeping on the bench. And this is the Bay area that we were talking about where, in fact, the tech boom has gone hand in hand with a housing crisis. Those things have grown in tandem. So innovation has grown within equity because we haven't thought carefully about how to address the social context in which technology grows and blossoms. And so I thought, Okay, this crisis is growing in this area, and so perhaps this is a deliberate attempt to make sure that people don't sleep on the benches by the way that they're designed and where the where they're implemented and So this is what we might call structural inequity. By the way something is designed. It has certain effects that exclude or harm different people. And so it may not necessarily be the intense, but that's the effect. And I did a little digging, and I found, in fact, it's a global phenomenon, this thing that architects called hostile architecture. Er, I found single occupancy benches in Helsinki, so only one booty at a time no laying down there. I found caged benches in France. And in this particular town. What's interesting here is that the mayor put these benches out in this little shopping plaza, and within 24 hours the people in the town rallied together and had them removed. So we see here that just because we have, uh, discriminatory design in our public space doesn't mean we have to live with it. We can actually work together to ensure that our public space reflects our better values. But I think my favorite example of all is the meter bench. In this case, this bench is designed with spikes in them, and to get the spikes to retreat into the bench, you have to feed the meter you have to put some coins in, and I think it buys you about 15 or 20 minutes. Then the spikes come back up. And so you'll be happy to know that in this case, this was designed by a German artists to get people to think critically about issues of design, not just the design of physical space but the design of all kinds of things, public policies. And so we can think about how our public life in general is metered, that it serves those that can pay the price and others are excluded or harm, whether we're talking about education or health care. And the meter bench also presents something interesting. For those of us who care about technology, it creates a technical fix for a social problem. In fact, it started out his art. But some municipalities in different parts of the world have actually adopted this in their public spaces in their parks in order to deter so called lawyers from using that space. And so, by a technical fix, we mean something that creates a short term effect, right. It gets people who may want to sleep on it out of sight. They're unable to use it, but it doesn't address the underlying problems that create that need to sleep outside in the first place. And so, in addition to techno determinism, we have to think critically about technical fixes that don't address the underlying issues that technology is meant to solve. And so this is part of a broader issue of discriminatory design, and we can apply the bench metaphor to all kinds of things that we work with or that we create. And the question we really have to continuously ask ourselves is, What values are we building in to the physical and digital infrastructures around us? What are the spikes that we may unwittingly put into place? Or perhaps we didn't create the spikes. Perhaps we started a new job or a new position, and someone hands us something. This is the way things have always been done. So we inherit the spike bench. What is our responsibility when we noticed that it's creating these kinds of harms or exclusions or technical fixes that are bypassing the underlying problem? What is our responsibility? All of this came to a head in the context of financial technologies. I don't know how many of you remember these high profile cases of tech insiders and CEOs who applied for Apple, the Apple card and, in one case, a husband and wife applied and the husband, the husband received a much higher limit almost 20 times the limit as his wife, even though they shared bank accounts, they lived in Common Law State. And so the question. There was not only the fact that the husband was receiving a much better interest rate and the limit, but also that there was no mechanism for the individuals involved to dispute what was happening. They didn't even know what the factors were that they were being judged that was creating this form of discrimination. So in terms of financial technologies, it's not simply the outcome that's the issue. Or that could be discriminatory, but the process that black boxes, all of the decision making that makes it so that consumers and the general public have no way to question it. No way to understand how they're being judged adversely, and so it's the process not only the product that we have to care a lot about. And so the case of the apple cart is part of a much broader phenomenon of, um, racist and sexist robots. This is how the headlines framed it a few years ago, and I was so interested in this framing because there was a first wave of stories that seemed to be shocked at the prospect that technology is not neutral. Then there was a second wave of stories that seemed less surprised. Well, of course, technology inherits its creator's biases. And now I think we've entered a phase of attempts to override and address the default settings of so called racist and sexist robots, for better or worse. And here robots is just a kind of shorthand, that the way people are talking about automation and emerging technologies more broadly. And so as I was encountering these headlines, I was thinking about how these air, not problems simply brought on by machine learning or AI. They're not all brand new, and so I wanted to contribute to the conversation, a kind of larger context and a longer history for us to think carefully about the social dimensions of technology. And so I developed a concept called the New Jim Code, which plays on the phrase Jim Crow, which is the way that the regime of white supremacy and inequality in this country was defined in a previous era, and I wanted us to think about how that legacy continues to haunt the present, how we might be coding bias into emerging technologies and the danger being that we imagine those technologies to be objective. And so this gives us a language to be able to name this phenomenon so that we can address it and change it under this larger umbrella of the new Jim Code are four distinct ways that this phenomenon takes shape from the more obvious engineered inequity. Those were the kinds of inequalities tech mediated inequalities that we can generally see coming. They're kind of obvious. But then we go down the line and we see it becomes harder to detect. It's happening in our own backyards. It's happening around us, and we don't really have a view into the black box, and so it becomes more insidious. And so in the remaining couple minutes, I'm just just going to give you a taste of the last three of these, and then a move towards conclusion that we can start chatting. So when it comes to default discrimination. This is the way that social inequalities become embedded in emerging technologies because designers of these technologies aren't thinking carefully about history and sociology. Ah, great example of this came Thio headlines last fall when it was found that widely used healthcare algorithm affecting millions of patients, um, was discriminating against black patients. And so what's especially important to note here is that this algorithm healthcare algorithm does not explicitly take note of race. That is to say, it is race neutral by using cost to predict healthcare needs. This digital triaging system unwittingly reproduces health disparities because, on average, black people have incurred fewer costs for a variety of reasons, including structural inequality. So in my review of this study by Obermeyer and colleagues, I want to draw attention to how indifference to social reality can be even more harmful than malicious intent. It doesn't have to be the intent of the designers to create this effect, and so we have to look carefully at how indifference is operating and how race neutrality can be a deadly force. When we move on to the next iteration of the new Jim code coded exposure, there's attention because on the one hand, you see this image where the darker skin individual is not being detected by the facial recognition system, right on the camera or on the computer. And so coated exposure names this tension between wanting to be seen and included and recognized, whether it's in facial recognition or in recommendation systems or in tailored advertising. But the opposite of that, the tension is with when you're over included. When you're surveiled when you're to centered. And so we should note that it's not simply in being left out, that's the problem. But it's in being included in harmful ways. And so I want us to think carefully about the rhetoric of inclusion and understand that inclusion is not simply an end point. It's a process, and it is possible to include people in harmful processes. And so we want to ensure that the process is not harmful for it to really be effective. The last iteration of the new Jim Code. That means the the most insidious, let's say, is technologies that are touted as helping US address bias, so they're not simply including people, but they're actively working to address bias. And so in this case, There are a lot of different companies that are using AI to hire, create hiring software and hiring algorithms, including this one higher view. And the idea is that there there's a lot that AI can keep track of that human beings might miss. And so so the software can make data driven talent decisions. After all, the problem of employment discrimination is widespread and well documented. So the logic goes, Wouldn't this be even more reason to outsource decisions to AI? Well, let's think about this carefully. And this is the look of the idea of techno benevolence trying to do good without fully reckoning with what? How technology can reproduce inequalities. So some colleagues of mine at Princeton, um, tested a natural learning processing algorithm and was looking to see whether it exhibited the same, um, tendencies that psychologists have documented among humans. E. And what they found was that in fact, the algorithm associating black names with negative words and white names with pleasant sounding words. And so this particular audit builds on a classic study done around 2003, before all of the emerging technologies were on the scene where two University of Chicago economists sent out thousands of resumes to employers in Boston and Chicago, and all they did was change the names on those resumes. All of the other work history education were the same, and then they waited to see who would get called back. And the applicants, the fictional applicants with white sounding names received 50% more callbacks than the black applicants. So if you're presented with that study, you might be tempted to say, Well, let's let technology handle it since humans are so biased. But my colleagues here in computer science found that this natural language processing algorithm actually reproduced those same associations with black and white names. So, too, with gender coded words and names Amazon learned a couple years ago when its own hiring algorithm was found discriminating against women. Nevertheless, it should be clear by now why technical fixes that claim to bypass human biases are so desirable. If Onley there was a way to slay centuries of racist and sexist demons with a social justice box beyond desirable, more like magical, magical for employers, perhaps looking to streamline the grueling work of recruitment but a curse from any jobseekers, as this headline puts it, your next interview could be with a racist spot, bringing us back to that problem space we started with just a few minutes ago. So it's worth noting that job seekers are already developing ways to subvert the system by trading answers to employers test and creating fake applications as informal audits of their own. In terms of a more collective response, there's a federation of European Trade unions call you and I Global that's developed a charter of digital rights for work, others that touches on automated and a I based decisions to be included in bargaining agreements. And so this is one of many efforts to change their ecosystem to change the context in which technology is being deployed to ensure more protections and more rights for everyday people in the US There's the algorithmic accountability bill that's been presented, and it's one effort to create some more protections around this ubiquity of automated decisions, and I think we should all be calling from more public accountability when it comes to the widespread use of automated decisions. Another development that keeps me somewhat hopeful is that tech workers themselves are increasingly speaking out against the most egregious forms of corporate collusion with state sanctioned racism. And to get a taste of that, I encourage you to check out the hashtag Tech won't build it. Among other statements that they have made and walking out and petitioning their companies. Who one group said, as the people who build the technologies that Microsoft profits from, we refuse to be complicit in terms of education, which is my own ground zero. Um, it's a place where we can we can grow a more historically and socially literate approach to tech design. And this is just one, um, resource that you all can download, Um, by developed by some wonderful colleagues at the Data and Society Research Institute in New York and the goal of this interventionist threefold to develop an intellectual understanding of how structural racism operates and algorithms, social media platforms and technologies, not yet developed and emotional intelligence concerning how to resolve racially stressful situations within organizations, and a commitment to take action to reduce harms to communities of color. And so as a final way to think about why these things are so important, I want to offer a couple last provocations. The first is for us to think a new about what actually is deep learning when it comes to computation. I want to suggest that computational depth when it comes to a I systems without historical or social depth, is actually superficial learning. And so we need to have a much more interdisciplinary, integrated approach to knowledge production and to observing and understanding patterns that don't simply rely on one discipline in order to map reality. The last provocation is this. If, as I suggested at the start, inequity is woven into the very fabric of our society, it's built into the design of our. Our policies are physical infrastructures and now even our digital infrastructures. That means that each twist, coil and code is a chance for us toe. We've new patterns, practices and politics. The vastness of the problems that we're up against will be their undoing. Once we accept that we're pattern makers. So what does that look like? It looks like refusing color blindness as an anecdote to tech media discrimination rather than refusing to see difference. Let's take stock of how the training data and the models that we're creating have these built in decisions from the past that have often been discriminatory. It means actually thinking about the underside of inclusion, which can be targeting. And how do we create a more participatory rather than predatory form of inclusion? And ultimately, it also means owning our own power in these systems so that we can change the patterns of the past. If we're if we inherit a spiked bench, that doesn't mean that we need to continue using it. We can work together to design more just and equitable technologies. So with that, I look forward to our conversation. >>Thank you, Ruth. Ha. That was I expected it to be amazing, as I have been devouring your book in the last few weeks. So I knew that would be impactful. I know we will never think about park benches again. How it's art. And you laid down the gauntlet. Oh, my goodness. That tech won't build it. Well, I would say if the thoughts about team has any saying that we absolutely will build it and will continue toe educate ourselves. So you made a few points that it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. So unintentional has as big an impact. Um, how do we address that does it just start with awareness building or how do we address that? >>Yeah, so it's important. I mean, it's important. I have good intentions. And so, by saying that intentions are not the end, all be all. It doesn't mean that we're throwing intentions out. But it is saying that there's so many things that happened in the world, happened unwittingly without someone sitting down to to make it good or bad. And so this goes on both ends. The analogy that I often use is if I'm parked outside and I see someone, you know breaking into my car, I don't run out there and say Now, do you feel Do you feel in your heart that you're a thief? Do you intend to be a thief? I don't go and grill their identity or their intention. Thio harm me, but I look at the effect of their actions, and so in terms of art, the teams that we work on, I think one of the things that we can do again is to have a range of perspectives around the table that can think ahead like chess, about how things might play out, but also once we've sort of created something and it's, you know, it's entered into, you know, the world. We need to have, ah, regular audits and check ins to see when it's going off track just because we intended to do good and set it out when it goes sideways, we need mechanisms, formal mechanisms that actually are built into the process that can get it back on track or even remove it entirely if we find And we see that with different products, right that get re called. And so we need that to be formalized rather than putting the burden on the people that are using these things toe have to raise the awareness or have to come to us like with the apple card, Right? To say this thing is not fair. Why don't we have that built into the process to begin with? >>Yeah, so a couple things. So my dad used to say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so that's >>yes on. In fact, in the book, I say the road to hell is paved with technical fixes. So they're me and your dad are on the same page, >>and I I love your point about bringing different perspectives. And I often say this is why diversity is not just about business benefits. It's your best recipe for for identifying the early biases in the data sets in the way we build things. And yet it's such a thorny problem to address bringing new people in from tech. So in the absence of that, what do we do? Is it the outside review boards? Or do you think regulation is the best bet as you mentioned a >>few? Yeah, yeah, we need really need a combination of things. I mean, we need So on the one hand, we need something like a do no harm, um, ethos. So with that we see in medicine so that it becomes part of the fabric and the culture of organizations that that those values, the social values, have equal or more weight than the other kinds of economic imperatives. Right. So we have toe have a reckoning in house, but we can't leave it to people who are designing and have a vested interest in getting things to market to regulate themselves. We also need independent accountability. So we need a combination of this and going back just to your point about just thinking about like, the diversity on teams. One really cautionary example comes to mind from last fall, when Google's New Pixel four phone was about to come out and it had a kind of facial recognition component to it that you could open the phone and they had been following this research that shows that facial recognition systems don't work as well on darker skin individuals, right? And so they wanted Thio get a head start. They wanted to prevent that, right? So they had good intentions. They didn't want their phone toe block out darker skin, you know, users from from using it. And so what they did was they were trying to diversify their training data so that the system would work better and they hired contract workers, and they told these contract workers to engage black people, tell them to use the phone play with, you know, some kind of app, take a selfie so that their faces would populate that the training set, But they didn't. They did not tell the people what their faces were gonna be used for, so they withheld some information. They didn't tell them. It was being used for the spatial recognition system, and the contract workers went to the media and said Something's not right. Why are we being told? Withhold information? And in fact, they told them, going back to the park bench example. To give people who are homeless $5 gift cards to play with the phone and get their images in this. And so this all came to light and Google withdrew this research and this process because it was so in line with a long history of using marginalized, most vulnerable people and populations to make technologies better when those technologies are likely going toe, harm them in terms of surveillance and other things. And so I think I bring this up here to go back to our question of how the composition of teams might help address this. I think often about who is in that room making that decision about sending, creating this process of the contract workers and who the selfies and so on. Perhaps it was a racially homogeneous group where people didn't want really sensitive to how this could be experienced or seen, but maybe it was a diverse, racially diverse group and perhaps the history of harm when it comes to science and technology. Maybe they didn't have that disciplinary knowledge. And so it could also be a function of what people knew in the room, how they could do that chest in their head and think how this is gonna play out. It's not gonna play out very well. And the last thing is that maybe there was disciplinary diversity. Maybe there was racial ethnic diversity, but maybe the workplace culture made it to those people. Didn't feel like they could speak up right so you could have all the diversity in the world. But if you don't create a context in which people who have those insights feel like they can speak up and be respected and heard, then you're basically sitting on a reservoir of resource is and you're not tapping into it to ensure T to do right by your company. And so it's one of those cautionary tales I think that we can all learn from to try to create an environment where we can elicit those insights from our team and our and our coworkers, >>your point about the culture. This is really inclusion very different from just diversity and thought. Eso I like to end on a hopeful note. A prescriptive note. You have some of the most influential data and analytics leaders and experts attending virtually here. So if you imagine the way we use data and housing is a great example, mortgage lending has not been equitable for African Americans in particular. But if you imagine the right way to use data, what is the future hold when we've gotten better at this? More aware >>of this? Thank you for that question on DSO. You know, there's a few things that come to mind for me one. And I think mortgage environment is really the perfect sort of context in which to think through the the both. The problem where the solutions may lie. One of the most powerful ways I see data being used by different organizations and groups is to shine a light on the past and ongoing inequities. And so oftentimes, when people see the bias, let's say when it came to like the the hiring algorithm or the language out, they see the names associated with negative or positive words that tends toe have, ah, bigger impact because they think well, Wow, The technology is reflecting these biases. It really must be true. Never mind that people might have been raising the issues in other ways before. But I think one of the most powerful ways we can use data and technology is as a mirror onto existing forms of inequality That then can motivate us to try to address those things. The caution is that we cannot just address those once we come to grips with the problem, the solution is not simply going to be a technical solution. And so we have to understand both the promise of data and the limits of data. So when it comes to, let's say, a software program, let's say Ah, hiring algorithm that now is trained toe look for diversity as opposed to homogeneity and say I get hired through one of those algorithms in a new workplace. I can get through the door and be hired. But if nothing else about that workplace has changed and on a day to day basis I'm still experiencing microaggressions. I'm still experiencing all kinds of issues. Then that technology just gave me access to ah harmful environment, you see, and so this is the idea that we can't simply expect the technology to solve all of our problems. We have to do the hard work. And so I would encourage everyone listening to both except the promise of these tools, but really crucially, um, Thio, understand that the rial kinds of changes that we need to make are gonna be messy. They're not gonna be quick fixes. If you think about how long it took our society to create the kinds of inequities that that we now it lived with, we should expect to do our part, do the work and pass the baton. We're not going to magically like Fairy does create a wonderful algorithm that's gonna help us bypass these issues. It can expose them. But then it's up to us to actually do the hard work of changing our social relations are changing the culture of not just our workplaces but our schools. Our healthcare systems are neighborhoods so that they reflect our better values. >>Yeah. Ha. So beautifully said I think all of us are willing to do the hard work. And I like your point about using it is a mirror and thought spot. We like to say a fact driven world is a better world. It can give us that transparency. So on behalf of everyone, thank you so much for your passion for your hard work and for talking to us. >>Thank you, Cindy. Thank you so much for inviting me. Hey, I live back to you. >>Thank you, Cindy and rou ha. For this fascinating exploration of our society and technology, we're just about ready to move on to our final session of the day. So make sure to tune in for this customer case study session with executives from Sienna and Accenture on driving digital transformation with certain AI.

>>Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be in conversation with you today. And I thought I would just kick things off with some opening reflections on this really important session theme, and then we can jump into discussion. So I'd like us to, as a starting point, um, wrestle with these buzz words, empowerment and inclusion so that we can, um, have them be more than kind of big platitudes and really have them reflected in our workplace cultures and the things that we design and the technologies that we put out into the world. And so to do that, I think we have to move beyond techno determinism and I'll explain what that means in just a minute. And techno determinism comes in two forms. The first on your left is the idea that technology automate. Um, all of these emerging trends are going to harm us are going to necessarily, um, harm humanity. >>They're going to take all the jobs they're going to remove human agency. This is what we might call the techno dystopian version of the story. And this is what Hollywood loves to sell us in the form of movies like the matrix or Terminator. The other version on your right is the techno utopian story that technologies automation, the robots, as a shorthand are going to save humanity. They're going to make everything more efficient, more equitable. And in this case, on the surface, they seem like opposing narratives, right? They're telling us different stories. At least they have different endpoints, but when you pull back the screen and look a little bit more closely, you see that they share an underlying logic, that technology is in the driver's seat and that human beings, that social society can just respond to what's happening. But we don't, I really have a say in what technologies are designed. >>And so to move beyond techno determinism, the notion that technology is in the driver's seat, we have to put the human agents and agencies back into the story protagonists and think carefully about what the human desires, worldviews values assumptions are that animate the production of technology. We have to put the humans behind the screen back into view. And so that's a very first step in when we do that. We see as was already mentioned that it's a very homogenous group right now in terms of who gets the power and the resources to produce the digital and physical infrastructure that everyone else has to live with. And so, as a first step, we need to think about how to, to create more participation of those who are working behind the scenes to design technology. Now, to dig a little more deeper into this, I want to offer a kind of low tech example before we get to the more high tech ones. >>So what you see in front of you here is a simple park bench public it's located in Berkeley, California, which is where I went to graduate school. And on this one particular visit, I was living in Boston. And so I was back in California, it was February, it was freezing where I was coming from. And so I wanted to take a few minutes in between meetings to just lay out in the sun and soak in some vitamin D. And I quickly realized actually I couldn't lay down on the bench because of the way it had been designed with these arm rests at intermittent intervals. And so here I thought, okay, th th the armrests have a functional reason why they're there. I mean, you could literally rest your elbows there, or, um, you know, it can create a little bit of privacy of someone sitting there that you don't know. >>Um, when I was nine months pregnant, it could help me get up and down or for the elderly the same thing. So it has a lot of functional reasons, but I also thought about the fact that it prevents people who are, are homeless from sleeping on the bench. And this is the Bay area that we're talking about, where in fact, the tech boom has gone hand in hand with a housing crisis. Those things have grown in tandem. So innovation has grown with inequity because we have, I haven't thought carefully about how to address the social context in which technology grows and blossoms. And so I thought, okay, this crisis is growing in this area. And so perhaps this is a deliberate attempt to make sure that people don't sleep on the benches by the way that they're designed and where the, where they're implemented. And so this is what we might call structural inequity, by the way something is designed. >>It has certain yeah. Affects that exclude or harm different people. And so it may not necessarily be the intent, but that's the effect. And I did a little digging and I found, in fact, it's a global phenomenon, this thing that architect next call, hostile architecture around single occupancy, benches and Helsinki. So only one booty at a time, no Nolan down there. I've found caged benches in France. Yeah. And in this particular town, what's interesting here is that the mayor put these benches out in this little shopping Plaza and within 24 hours, the people in the town rally together and have them removed. So we see here that just because we, we have a discriminatory design in our public space, doesn't mean we have to live with it. We can actually work together to ensure that our public space reflects our better values. But I think my favorite example of all is the metered bench. >>And then this case, this bench is designed with spikes in them and to get the spikes to retreat into the bench, you have to feed the meter. You have to put some coins in, and I think it buys you about 15, 20 minutes, then the spikes come back up. And so you will be happy to know that in this case, uh, this was designed by a German artist to get people to think critically about issues of design, not the design of physical space, but the design of all kinds of things, public policies. And so we can think about how our public life in general is metered, that it serves those that can pay the price and others are excluded or harmed. Whether we're talking about education or healthcare. And the meter bench also presents something interesting for those of us who care about technology, it creates a technical fix for a social problem. >>In fact, it started out as art, but some municipalities in different parts of the world have actually adopted this in their public spaces, in their parks in order to deter so-called loiters from using that space. And so by a technical fix, we mean something that creates a short-term effect, right? It gets people who may want to sleep on it out of sight. They're unable to use it, but it doesn't address the underlying problems that create that need to sleep outside of the first place. And so, in addition to techno determinism, we have to think critically about technical fixes, that don't address the underlying issues that the tech tech technology is meant to solve. And so this is part of a broader issue of discriminatory design, and we can apply the bench metaphor to all kinds of things that we work with, or that we create. >>And the question we really have to continuously ask ourselves is what values are we building in to the physical and digital infrastructures around us? What are the spikes that we may unwittingly put into place? Or perhaps we didn't create the spikes. Perhaps we started a new job or a new position, and someone hands us something, this is the way things have always been done. So we inherit the spiked bench. What is our responsibility? When we notice that it's creating these kinds of harms or exclusions or technical fixes that are bypassing the underlying problem, what is our responsibility? All of this came to a head in the context of financial technologies. I don't know how many of you remember these high profile cases of tech insiders and CEOs who applied for apples, >>The Apple card. And in one case, a husband and wife applied, and the husband, the husband received a much higher limit, almost 20 times the limit as his, >>His wife, even though they shared bank accounts, they lived in common law state. Yeah. >>And so the question there was not only the fact that >>The husband was receiving a much better rate and a high and a better >>The interest rate and the limit, but also that there was no mechanism for the individuals involved to dispute what was happening. They didn't even know how, what the factors were that they were being judged that was creating this form of discrimination. So >>In terms of financial technologies, it's not simply the outcome, that's the issue, or that can be discriminatory, >>But the process that black box is all of the decision-making that makes it so that consumers and the general public have no way to question it, no way to understand how they're being judged adversely. And so it's the process, not only the product that we have to care a lot about. And so the case of the Apple card is part of a much broader phenomenon >>Of, um, races >>And sexist robots. This is how the headlines framed it a few years ago. And I was so interested in this framing because there was a first wave of stories that seemed to be shocked at the prospect, that technology is not neutral. Then there was a second wave of stories that seemed less surprised. Well, of course, technology inherits its creators biases. And now I think we've entered a phase of attempts to override and address the default settings of so-called racist and sexist robots for better or worse than here. Robots is just a kind of shorthand that the way that people are talking about automation and emerging technologies more broadly. And so, as I was encountering these headlines, I was thinking about how these are not problems simply brought on by machine learning or AI. They're not all brand new. And so I wanted to contribute to the conversation, a kind of larger context and a longer history for us to think carefully about the social dimensions of technology. And so I developed a concept called the new Jim code, >>Which plays on the phrase, >>Jim Crow, which is the way that the regime of white supremacy and inequality in this country was defined in a previous era. And I wanted us to think about how that legacy continues to haunt the present, how we might be coding bias into emerging technologies and the danger being that we imagine those technologies to be objective. And so this gives us a language to be able to name this phenomenon so that we can address it and change it under this larger umbrella of the new Jim code are four distinct ways that this phenomenon takes shape from the more obvious engineered inequity. Those are the kinds of inequalities tech mediated in the qualities that we can generally see coming. They're kind of obvious, but then we go down the line and we see it becomes harder to detect it's happening in our own backyards, it's happening around us. And we don't really have a view into the black box. And so it becomes more insidious. And so in the remaining couple of minutes, I'm just, just going to give you a taste of the last three of these, and then a move towards conclusion. Then we can start chatting. So when it comes to default discrimination, this is the way that social inequalities >>Become embedded in emerging technologies because designers of these technologies, aren't thinking carefully about history and sociology. A great example of this, uh, came to, um, uh, the headlines last fall when it was found that widely used healthcare algorithm, effecting millions of patients, um, was discriminating against black patients. And so what's especially important to note here is that this algorithm, healthcare algorithm does not explicitly take note of race. That is to say it is race neutral by using cost to predict healthcare needs this digital triaging system unwittingly reproduces health disparities, because on average, black people have incurred fewer costs for a variety of reasons, including structural inequality. So in my review of this study, by Obermeyer and colleagues, I want to draw attention to how indifference to social reality can be even more harmful than malicious intent. It doesn't have to be the intent of the designers to create this effect. >>And so we have to look carefully at how indifference is operating and how race neutrality can be a deadly force. When we move on to the next iteration of the new Jim code, coded exposure, there's a tension because on the one hand, you see this image where the darker skin individual is not being detected by the facial recognition system, right on the camera, on the computer. And so coded exposure names, this tension between wanting to be seen and included and recognized whether it's in facial recognition or in recommendation systems or in tailored advertising. But the opposite of that, the tension is with when you're over, it >>Included when you're surveilled, when you're >>Too centered. And so we should note that it's not simply in being left out, that's the problem, but it's in being included in harmful ways. And so I want us to think carefully about the rhetoric of inclusion and understand that inclusion is not simply an end point, it's a process, and it is possible to include people in harmful processes. And so we want to ensure that the process is not harmful for it to really be effective. The last iteration of the new Jim code. That means the, the most insidious let's say is technologies that are touted as helping us address bias. So they're not simply including people, but they're actively working to address bias. And so in this case, there are a lot of different companies that are using AI to hire, uh, create hiring, um, software and hiring algorithms, including this one higher view. >>And the idea is that there there's a lot that, um, AI can keep track of that human beings might miss. And so, so the software can make data-driven talent decisions after all the problem of employment discrimination is widespread and well-documented, so the logic goes, wouldn't this be even more reason to outsource decisions to AI? Well, let's think about this carefully. And this is the idea of techno benevolence, trying to do good without fully reckoning with what, how technology can reproduce inequalities. So some colleagues of mine at Princeton, um, tested a natural learning processing algorithm and was looking to see whether it exhibited the same, um, tendencies that psychologists have documented among humans. And what they found was that in fact, the algorithm associated black names with negative words and white names with pleasant sounding words. And so this particular audit builds on a classic study done around 2003 before all of the emerging technologies were on the scene where two university of Chicago economists sent out thousands of resumes to employers in Boston and Chicago. >>And all they did was change the names on those resumes. All of the other work history education were the same. And then they waited to see who would get called back and the applicants, the fictional applicants with white sounding names received 50% more callbacks than the, the black applicants. So if you're presented with that study, you might be tempted to say, well, let's let technology handle it since humans are so biased. But my colleagues here in computer science found that this natural language processing algorithm actually reproduced those same associations with black and white names. So two with gender coded words and names as Amazon learned a couple years ago, when its own hiring algorithm was found discriminating against women, nevertheless, it should be clear by now why technical fixes that claim to bypass human biases are so desirable. If only there was a way to slay centuries of racist and sexist demons with a social justice bot beyond desirable, more like magical, magical for employers, perhaps looking to streamline the grueling work of recruitment, but a curse from any job seekers as this headline puts it. >>Your next interview could be with a racist bot, bringing us back to that problem space. We started with just a few minutes ago. So it's worth noting that job seekers are already developing ways to subvert the system by trading answers to employers tests and creating fake applications as informal audits of their own. In terms of a more collective response. There's a Federation of European trade unions call you and I global that's developed a charter of digital rights for workers that touches on automated and AI based decisions to be included in bargaining agreements. And so this is one of many efforts to change the ecosystem, to change the context in which technology is being deployed to ensure more protections and more rights for everyday people in the U S there's the algorithmic accountability bill that's been presented. And it's one effort to create some more protections around this ubiquity of automated decisions. >>And I think we should all be calling for more public accountability when it comes to the widespread use of automated decisions. Another development that keeps me somewhat hopeful is that tech workers themselves are increasingly speaking out against the most egregious forms of corporate collusion with state sanctioned racism. And to get a taste of that, I encourage you to check out the hashtag tech, won't build it among other statements that they've made and walking out and petitioning their companies. One group said as the, at Google at Microsoft wrote as the people who build the technologies that Microsoft profits from, we refuse to be complicit in terms of education, which is my own ground zero. Um, it's a place where we can, we can grow a more historically and socially literate approach to tech design. And this is just one resource that you all can download, um, by developed by some wonderful colleagues at the data and society research Institute in New York. >>And the, the goal of this intervention is threefold to develop an intellectual understanding of how structural racism operates and algorithms, social media platforms and technologies not yet developed and emotional intelligence concerning how to resolve racially stressful situations within organizations and a commitment to take action, to reduce harms to communities of color. And so as a final way to think about why these things are so important, I want to offer, uh, a couple last provocations. The first is pressed to think a new about what actually is deep learning when it comes to computation. I want to suggest that computational depth when it comes to AI systems without historical or social depth is actually superficial learning. And so we need to have a much more interdisciplinary, integrated approach to knowledge production and to observing and understanding patterns that don't simply rely on one discipline in order to map reality. >>The last provocation is this. If as I suggested at the start in the inequity is woven into the very fabric of our society. It's built into the design of our, our policies, our physical infrastructures, and now even our digital infrastructures. That means that each twist coil and code is a chance for us to weave new patterns, practices, and politics. The vastness of the problems that we're up against will be their undoing. Once we, that we are pattern makers. So what does that look like? It looks like refusing colorblindness as an anecdote to tech media discrimination, rather than refusing to see difference. Let's take stock of how the training data and the models that we're creating. Have these built in decisions from the past that have often been discriminatory. It means actually thinking about the underside of inclusion, which can be targeting and how do we create a more participatory rather than predatory form of inclusion. And ultimately it also means owning our own power in these systems so that we can change the patterns of the past. If we're, if we inherit a spiked bench, that doesn't mean that we need to continue using it. We can work together to design more, just an equitable technologies. So with that, I look forward to our conversation.

>> It's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit, New York, 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its ecosystem partners. >> Here in New York City, we're live at Amazon Web Services AWS Summit. This is their big show that they take on the road. It kind of originates at Amazon re:Invent in Las Vegas, their big kickoff show for the year, and then goes out to the different geographies and goes out and talks to the customers, and actually rolls out all the greatest of the cloud from Amazon's perspective. Of course theCUBE covering it, wall-to-wall cloud coverage, I'm John Furrier, co-host with Jeff Frick here today in New York City for special coverage. Jeff, Amazon obviously continue to dominate, but competition is heating up, Google Nexus next week, we'll be there live. Microsoft's got a big show, Azure's gaining market share, Amazon's still racing ahead. They got a book they're giving out here called Ahead in the Cloud, Best Practices for Enterprise IT. Amazon, clearly we talk about this all the time, they've cleared the runway from winning the startups, small, medium-sized growing business in the cloud native, to actually putting big dent in the market share for acquiring large enterprise customers. That has been their mission, that's Andy Jackson's mission, that's the team. Their head count is growing, Jeff Bezos is the richest man in history of the world. Pretty impressive story, we've been covering it since 2012, >> What's crazy is it's barely got started, John. I mean, just looking up some numbers before we came on, Gardener has a bunch of projected public cloud cans, anywhere from 180 billion to 260 billion. So even with Amazon at the head of the pace, I can't remember their last statement, I think it was 18 billion run rate, and everybody's saying Microsoft's brewing so fast. They barely still scratch the surface, and that I think is what's really scary. There'll be 50,000 people probably at re:Invent, there's 10,000 here in New York, they have these summits all over the country, all over the world, and so as impressive as the story is, what I think is even crazier is we've barely just begun. You were just at Public Sector, that's a whole 'nother giant tranche that's growing. >> Well you started to see the ecosystem develop nicely, and cloud native certainly is a tailwind for overall Amazon. Obviously the have the winning cloud formula, they've been ahead for many, many years. But again, competition's keeping up. But if you look behind us, you probably can't see in the cameras, it doesn't give justice, but this show, it's in New York City, it's a regional kind of like event. Its now looking the size of what re:Invent was just a few years ago. Public Sector Summit, which is the global public sector that Teresa Carlson runs, in really its third year roughly since it got big, started out a couple years ago. That's now morphing into the size of re:Invent, so pretty massive. >> And they said there's 10,000 people here. I don't know how many were at Public Sector. 138 sponsors, just some of the numbers that Werner shared in the keynote. 80 sessions, really an education session, it's a one-day event. We're excited to be here, but what's amazing is even though pretty much every enterprise has something going on in the public cloud, in terms of the vast majority of the workload, still most of 'em are not, and you know, really an interesting play. We were there when the AWS VMware announcement was made a couple of years back in San Francisco, as kind of this migration path, that's both been really good for VMware, and also really good for Amazon, 'cause now they have an answer to the, kind of the enterprise legacy question. >> I mean Jeff, did you look at the big picture? If you want to squint through the noise of cloud, what's really going on is, one, the analysts that are looking at market share, I think are looking at old data. It's hard to know who's really winning when you look about revenue, 'cause everyone can bundle in, Microsoft bundles Office revenue in. So it's actually, that's hard to understand, but if you look at the overall big picture, the landscape that's happening is that the enterprise and IT market has moved from being consumerization of IT to digital transformation. Those are the two buzzwords. But really what's happening is the operational model of cloud has created two real personas in the enterprise from a technical perspective. The developers who are building apps, and operators who are running the infrastructure, running the software, running the dashboards, running the operations. And so you start to see that interplay between operators and developers working together but yet decoupled, different personas. These are the ones that are changing how work gets done. So the future of how work and computing is going to be applied for end user benefits, user benefits, consumers, whether it's B2B or B2C companies, the cloud is the power engine of innovation, and new apps are coming on faster, and the roles are changing, and this is causing a shift of value. This is what the analysts at Wikibon, theCUBE, insights team has been looking at is that this is really the big thing. And machine learning, and AI, really take advantage of that, and you're going to start to see IoT, security, AI, start to be the critical apps to take advantage of this power of the cloud, and as enterprises transform their operations and their development frameworks, then I think you're going to see a whole new level of innovation. >> Right. They just had Epic Games on, the company that makes Fortnite which is a huge global phenomenon. If you don't know anything about it, ask somebody who's under the age of 15, they'll tell you all about it. >> 135 million gamers. >> The core value proposition of cloud is still the same, its flexibility, its global reach, its ability to scale up and scale down, and we've asked this question before and we're getting closer and closer with each passing day, is if we live in a world, John, with infinite compute, infinite bandwidth and infinite store, basically priced at zero, asymptotically approaching zero. What could you build? And if you could get that to the entire world instantly, what could you build, and we're really getting closer and closer to that and it's a very different way to think about the world than where you have to provision at 50% overhead, and you got to buy it and plug it in and turn it on. You know, that world is over. We're not going back, I don't think. >> If you look at the cloud players you've got Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and then we throw Alibaba, that's more of a China thing. Those are the main ones, you got Oracle for Oracle and IBM in there. You look at the companies, and look at the ones that have consumer experience, and look at the ones that don't. Microsoft has failed on the consumer business, although they have some consumer stuff, really not really been successful. Oracle and Microsoft, IBM have been business to business companies. Google and Amazon have been consumer companies that have bolted on a cloud just to run their operations. So to me what's interesting is, which one of those sides of the street, which one will emerge as the victorious cloud platform. I think I would bet on the consumer side. I like Google, I like Amazon better than Azure and Oracle and IBM, mainly because they have consumer experience, they understand the ultimate end user, and built clouds for that, and now are rolling that business. So the question is will that be the better model than having Azure or Oracle or IBM, who know the business model-- >> Right. >> But yet, will the devices matter? So this is going to be a big thing that we're going to watch on theCUBE is, which cloud play will win, or does it matter? Is it winner take all, winner take most? >> Yeah. >> This is the questions. >> Pretty interesting. You know you interviewed Mark Hurd many moons ago, for a long time, and he talked about cloudifying all the Oracle applications. The problem is, Clayton Christensen's book, Innovator's Dilemma, is still the best business book ever written. It's really hard to knock off your own core business, especially when it's profitable. That I think is Oracle's biggest problem. The other thing I think they have is, they're a sales culture, it's built around a sales culture. People are going out and it's a hard sell. That's not what the cloud is all about. It's really the commercialization of shadow IT. I need it, I turn it on, I activate it, I don't need it anymore, I turn it down, I turn it off, I turn it over. So I think Oracle's in a tough position to eat their own business. IBM is you know, continues to try different things and you know, with The Weather Company and Ustream, and they're doing a lot of things. But the core three have such momentum, Google we'll see, we're excited to be there next week and kind of get an update on what their story is, but still in the enterprise they barely scratch the surface of the available workload. >> I think that's the main story, the surface is just being scratched. If this is like the first or second inning of this game, or the second game of a double header, as Matt Dew has said on theCUBE many times, he'll come on today, it's interesting because if you think about the clouds that are best position to take advantage of new technologies, like AI, like blockchain, like token economics, those are the ones that have to be adaptable and flexible enough to take on new things, because if we're just scratching the surface, the new things that are going to come out have to scale, have to be data driven, have to be mobile, have to use AI, have to have the compute power. If you're kind of stuck in the old model and you have a ME2 cloud, it's going to be always hard to ratchet up and kind of always rearchitect and change, you need an architecture that will essentially be flexible and be adaptive. To me I think that's what we're going to look for here in the interviews today, and of course, security, Jeff, continues to be the number one conversation, at AWS re:Invent, and AWS Public Sector Summit. Security is getting better and better in the cloud and some say it's better than on-premises security. >> I think the resources that can be applied at a company like AWS, the security teams, the technology, the hardening, the private fiber connections, I mean so many things that they can apply because they have such scale, that you just can't do as a private enterprise. The other thing, right, is that people usually take better care of their customers than their own, and we know a lot of security breaches and data breaches are just from employees or somebody lost a laptop. They're these types of things where if you're an actual vendor for someone else and you're responsible for their security, you're going to be a little bit different, a little bit more diligent than kind of protecting once you're already inside the wall. >> And it changes the infrastructure, I mean just in the news this week, obviously Trump was in Helsinki, all I can see in my mind is, the servers, where are the servers, where are the servers? With the cloud you don't need servers. The whole paradigm is shifting. If you use cloud you can get encryption, you can get security. These are things that are going to start that I think be the table stakes for security, the idea of having a server, provisioning a server, managing servers per se, unless you're a cloud service provider, at some level, you're tier two or tier one, you don't need servers. This is the serverless trend. Again, Lambda functions, AI, application developers, all driving change. Again, two personas, operators and developers. This is what the swim lanes are starting to look at, we're starting to get the visibility. And of course we'll get all the data here in theCUBE, and share that with you this week. Today in New York City, live theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick. Stay with us for coverage here for AWS Summit 2018. We'll be right back.

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando Florida, it's theCUBE! Covering ServiceNow, Knowledge17. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Hi everybody, we're back. This is theCUBE and we're live from Knowledge17, I'm Dave Vellante with Jeff Frick. Michael Dippolito, did I say that right? >> D'Ippolito, close enough. >> D'Ippolito, sorry about that. A fellow Italian, I should get that right. D'Ippolito is assistant Vice President of Run Services Delivery, infrastructure and operations for Nationwide Insurance. Nationwide is on your side. >> You got it. It's in our heads right? >> I remember that. >> What a great marketing campaign. Michael, great to see you, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> So how's Knowledge going for ya? >> Very good, very good. I'm really excited about some of the new things coming out with the newest release that was just announced this morning. And as a matter of fact I'm ready to go back and say let's jump to that version right? Because it sounds really exciting. >> So where are you right now? Which version are you on? Are you on the Helsinki? >> We are on the Helsinki release now. We usually like to jump a couple and stay as current as we can, usually you know one release behind maybe but if we find there's good functionality in jumping one we'll do it. >> I want to come back and talk about that, because we like to pick your brains about what's the best practice there, but before we do maybe set up your role at Nationwide. >> Yeah, RunService is a pretty large organization for Nationwide, through acquisitions and through our legacy environments, we have lots of application systems, you know, keeping all those running is a monumental task. So, our group is kind of sitting mainly in the middle of the applications, the infrastructure, the process, and trying to help everything stay running smoothly. >> Okay and you started with IT service management change management, like most customers, is that right? And then, you've been evolving that. Can you talk about that a little bit? >> Yeah we just implemented, about a year ago actually, we installed a year ago. >> Okay. >> We went with the Fuji release that we implemented then we've already jumped to Helsinki, and we pretty much went all processes all at once and kind of a big bang. We actually did ask that management at first does a little bit of a pilot, but then we actually went through all the other ITSM functionality, big bang after that. >> Jeff: So you're all in. >> Michael: Yeah. >> So what was life like, you know, give us a before and after, and maybe take us through the business case and how that all came about. >> I'll give you a perfect example, I just kind of did an after action review for our senior management, on our previous platform, which was an on prem heavily customized platform, to take a release would require a year and a half with a lot of planning and about a million dollars. >> Jeff: To do an upgrade. >> To do an upgrade. (Jeff Laughing) This last release to Helsinki went about six weeks, and about $100,000. So, that's a huge business case right there. Being able to be in the cloud, not having to worry about the infrastructure ourselves, and really we drove a model of zero customization so we wanted to stay out of box as much as possible, just for that reason so we could take releases fast and stay current. >> Wow, I'm sure that benefits. >> In the, you know, was situtation, the cost was predominantly people cost, programming cost, license cost, maintenance, consultants? >> It was mostly hours of effort. >> Yeah. >> The amount of customization we had and then to retrofit and test all those changes back into the release from the vendor was a monumental task and we never want to get into that situation again. >> And so with the ServiceNow upgrade, it's not out of pocket cost as much, you're quantifying time, is that correct? >> Correct. >> Yeah okay. >> It's mostly our internal cost. >> You said the time it took was a year and a half and then, like a typical upgrade in ServiceNow is, >> Michael: Less than two months. >> Okay. >> For us to bring it in test it, exercise it, making sure all our customizations, or configurations actually I should say, are working well. And a lot of it is more just the change management around it, you know, putting out the word, the communications, doing a little bit of training, or whatever it takes to get ready for a smooth launch. >> And some of the upfront planning of that as well. Now, when we talk to customers, there seems to be, we heard today that 90% of customers are adopting service catalog, CMDB, I don't know. It's mixed, right? We hear some yes, some no. Maybe tell us your experiences. >> We have a huge focus on CMDB right now. We think that CMDB is basically the foundation to all your other processes to run more smoothly right? So good trustworthy data enables faster incident resolution, better problem solving, more rigorous change management so you asses your risk of change better. So really when we sold our CMDB project, we didn't sell it based on the CMDB, we sold it based on all those other things, >> All the benefits. >> That get a ramp off of it. You know, from doing that effort. So, we're putting a lot of effort on CMDB maturity. >> So you were talking before about some of the things you saw today in Jakarta that were of interest before we go there, you had mentioned you started with Fuji, and now you're on Helsinki. What was the, you didn't double leapfrog did you? Or did you? What's your upgrade strategy? You said you might be an N minus one, but you like to stay pretty current. What's your strategy in regards to upgrades? >> Right now, we're looking at trying to be N minus one >> Uh huh. >> and taking two per year. So looking at two releases a year. We're trying to plan our schedules around maybe spring and fall. So we organize our work and our patterns around that. But something like that. We haven't really solidified that yet. A lot of it depends on what we see coming up, and what we can take advantage of. Like for example, we're getting ready to implement Work Day. And we want to make sure we have great integration between Work Day and ServiceNow. Some of the things that Jakarta is going to offer us is going to integrate nicely into Work Day. So, we may jump to that version because of that. >> So we heard this morning that the big things, well CJ set up the big things in Jakarta were going to be performance, obviously everybody better performance, maybe some UX stuff in there too, vendor risk management, and then the software asset management, which got the big cheers and the whoohoo! >> Yeah. (Jeff chuckling) >> Yeah, so, what in Jakarta is appealing to you? >> This software as a management I'd say, is very interesting because we're looking at that very closely right now in terms of our strategy around that. The other one I really like is the performance analytics and the predictive analytics that are coming out. I'd really love to be able to benchmark ourselves against other companies in terms of how we're doing. I feel we beat ourselves up a lot internally around things like availability or performance. But then, when I look and talk to others, we're not so bad. (Jeff chuckling) We're actually doing pretty good. So it'd be nice to get that benchmarking. >> Right, right. >> And some of that trend analysis that's offered. And then, finally, how do we get into a more predictive analytics mode where we can prevent incidents from happening before they do? So that's key. >> It was interesting, listening to Farrell Hough this morning talk about sort of the evolution of automation. How do you look at automation? Some shops are afraid of automation, but it seems like the ServiceNow customers we talk to really can't go fast enough. What is your thought, and how are you evolving automation? >> Well, one of our key drivers right now is how do we increase the speed of delivery to the marketplace? But, we also have to stay safe and reliable, right? And the key to speed is through automation. You can't really get that speed if you're not highly automated. And, to be highly automated, you need really high trustworthy data. So that enables fast decision making, and accuracy. >> Jeff: And that ties back to your CMDB commitment. >> Exactly, so, that all entailed enables speed, which we really want because in today's world speed is everything in terms of how you're constantly adapting your systems of engagement out there with your customers. Constantly learning from their patterns and adjusting on the fly. And that requires new mindsets. >> So you start with IT service management, you've got HR as well, is that right? >> We don't have the HR model. Right now we're only IT service management. >> Okay, straight IT services. >> We're looking at other modules, as we speak. >> Okay, so you want to make sure you get the value out of the initial ITSM, and then, how do you see that, you know, evolving? What is the conversation like internally? Do the business lines say, wow, all of a sudden we're getting improved service, and how are you doing that? Or is it more of a push where you go out to the business and say hey, here are some ideas. How does that all work? >> I'll tell you what we're really starting to see is a really change in what's driving innovation. And it's more coming from IT versus, the former models where IT was kind of like the order taker, and the business came up with everything they needed. Now, with the pace of change with technology, new business models are coming from IT to the business. And we're actually almost seeing ourselves more of an IT company than we are an insurance company. And, you starting to see those patterns especially with things like, now we're talking about metered insurance for auto, right? So basically, pay by the mile insurance, versus paying the same rate for six months. With the data we're getting out of vehicles today we can adjust your rates on the fly as you drive. Why should you pay the same rate if your car sits in the garage all weekend, versus you take it out and drive it 200 miles, right? So with the kind of data, big data and analytics that are coming from the vehicles we can do that now. >> So how is that conversation taking place? Is it being initiated by somebody in the IT staff that says hey, did you know that we have this data and we can do this? Let's take it to the business unit. Or does the business unit saying, I just saw Flo, the competitor, sticking the little thing in the dashboard? (Michael chuckling) Can we do that too? You know, there's a lot of talk about IT taking a seat at the business table >> Right. >> But how have you seen it actually been executed inside of Nationwide? >> Actually what we're seeing is, the lines are very blurry now between IT and the business. Almost to where, we're just a team working together versus the silos you used to have, and throwing the ideas over the fence. So we actually have a team that their goal is strategy and innovation. They report up through our CIO, and then business line teams have similar organizations, and they all work in a matrix fashion together. So anybody can bring any type of idea to the table, regardless of who you report up through. And we take those into consideration and we look for partners, we've got partners coming to us all the time that want to join us in innovation. And so it doesn't have to be our own solution. It could just be us on the back end of somebody else's front end, right? So, there's a lot of interesting ideas coming at us. >> What's happening in the business Mike? I mean you've got, obviously you're supporting the big systems or claims, you've got your agents systems, but mobile has exploded onto the scene. >> Yes. >> How has that affected you? What are some of the drivers in the insurance business these days? >> Well, definitely we're in this digital world now so, mobile first is critical. Everything has to be mobile enabled. We have to think of our strategy in a digital way constantly so we have a whole digital strategy that we work on. The traditional models of agency sold insurance won't ever really go away, per se, but they are shrinking. You see the demands and needs of the millennials coming up, very differently and changing. You have to compete on price to get in the door. That's important, so again we're trying to find all those interaction or intercept points with our customers as they need us. People don't really like to think of insurance, it's not on top of mind in their day to day life. But, when certain events happen like oh, I'm going to get married, or I'm going to take a trip, or you know, those kinds of things. >> Jeff: Right, kid turns sixteen. >> Yeah, we have different ways to interact with our customers, and offer some solutions that meet their need at the time. >> Well it seems like you're right, to be competitive, you've got to have the right price for those that say okay, I've got to get insurance, I need to start somewhere, great, but are you able to, as an industry, sell value? I mean, increasingly you're seeing some companies I would say Nationwide is one, where you're selling value. >> Yeah. >> Is that a trend in the business? >> Absolutely, I'll give you an example. One of the things that, normally the insurance model used to be I buy insurance and I'm protected when something bad happens. then when something bad happens, you compensate me. You pay my claim. But what about, if we can help you prevent the bad thing from even happening? So with products like our Smart Home package that you can buy now with internet of things, we can put sensors on those hot water tanks or on those pipes, or connected to your alarm system so that maybe we could alert you when we see your pipe is about to break. >> Right so, we cover, as you know our audience, we cover big data a lot. And the data business, and the insurance business have come mashing together, right? You had mentioned before, Mike, in many regards you're becoming an IT company and digitization is all about data. And the data allows you guys to build new products, to offer new services, to be more competitive and at the end of the day it's all about speed. >> Correct, speed and then that helps drive that value equation, right? So it's not so much being the lowest price, although you have to have a good price to be in the game, but then after that how can you provide that value? >> I'm curious Mike, from an insurance point of view, where before the business was based on, you know you didn't have so much data, right? So you had some big swaths, Age, sex, smoker, not smoker, but now as you're able to get data to the individual level, how that changes the way you look at it? Because it's very different than just kind of aggregating to the bulk, and then the poor unfortunate soul who has a car wreck, you pay the claim. But now, like you said, you know if I'm driving on the weekends, or if I'm parking my car. How is that really shaping the way that you guys look at the marketplace and the opportunities? >> Well you know, in the old days, you used to be able to take basically a subset of data from the past, and make your decisions based on that. >> A subset of data from the past, I love that. >> Now we're taking all the data in real time. >> In real time. >> So that puts more demands on the need for the technologies to provide that. It's critical, like especially if we're going to change your rates daily on how we insure your car, we have to have all the data, all the time. >> I remember Abhi Mehta, one of our early big data CUBE interviews, he made the statement in 2010 he said, "Sampling is dead." And, now, some people will debate that but the point he was making is just the same one you just made Michael is that you've got that data coming in, streaming it in real time. Some consumers, you know, have an issue with sticking that little meter in their car, but ultimately, that's the trend. It's going to happen. >> And you know we're seeing, and you're probably seeing it in other businesses as well, if you can provide that value, customers will give you the access and the data, because they see a value in return. So, it's that value equation. If it's good enough, they'll give you the value, and they'll give you the data. >> Dave: Yeah, you see it every day in mobile apps, right? >> Correct. >> You know, you're in New York City trying to get somewhere and it's like, turn on location services and I can help you. >> When you download any app, there's a big screen that comes up and you say I accept at the bottom, and then it has access to your pictures, access to your location and you're free to hit that accept because you see the value in that application. >> It's a quid pro quo, you know it's interesting we had the author on yesterday, Pink, Daniel Pink? >> Jeff: Pink, Mr. Pink, yes. >> And he was pointing out, he said look there used to be that the brand used to have all the information, and now there's parody in information, but in many regards, this whole digitization is an attempt by the brand to provide, to use more data and to give the consumers more value, and to create differentiation in the marketplace, and that's kind of what you're describing in your business. Last question, what's on ServiceNow's to-do list? What do you want to see a year, year and a half in? >> Well, after we implemented, we partnered with ServiceNow in a project they call Inspire, and basically it's to, what are we going to do next? You know, that very question, how do we leverage now what we've implemented, and take advantage of what the platform has to offer? We see lots of opportunities, as a matter of fact our list is so long we just don't have the bandwidth to do it all (Jeff chuckling) and we have to prioritize, but we see a lot of integration points, we see a lot of APIs coming in, we are in a kind of a really big phase in automation right now, we're trying to automate as much as possible, so for our on prem technology, we really want to go into automated provisioning of our assets, which means being able to connect those into the CMDB as they're provisioned, all automatically, and we want to really shorten those cycle times for when we have to provision infrastructure and support our applications. So ServiceNow is setting us up to do just that. >> Inspire is a great program, it's one of the best freebies in the business, and it leads, it's a win win. The customer gets the best experts, they come in and obviously, the hope is they're going to buy more stuff from ServiceNow, and if the value's there you will. Why not? It's going to drive to the bottom line. >> Using cloud to provision on prem resources, I like that. (all laughing) >> Mike thanks very much for coming to theCUBE, it was really a pleasure having you. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Jeff: Thanks for sharing the insight. >> Alright keep it right there buddy we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break, there's a CUBEr live from Knowledge, be right back. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering ServiceNow Knowledge17, brought to you by ServiceNow. >> And we're back in Orlando, everybody, this is Dave Vellante with Jeff Frick, CJ Desai is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of ServiceNow, the newly-minted, 150 days in, CJ, great to see you off the keynote, fantastic job. >> Thank you, thank you, thank you. >> Very crisp, I was struck by your story about last October, when you were contacted by ServiceNow, you fired up the platform and started playing around and built an app. >> Yeah! (chuckling) >> And you found it was a good experience. >> It was a great experience, I'll tell you, Dave, from my standpoint, when you join a company that is built on a platform like ServiceNow, you want to make sure that you feel great about the foundational elements, because as always, you can build floors on top of a foundation, only when the foundation is strong. So ServiceNow always, I don't know if you know, but it started out as a platform company, and then they used the service management use case, and went deep in that use case, and then went to Operations Management and other products, as you know, and I just wanted to make sure that, hey, how easy it is, if I'm a customer, or if I'm in the product development organization, to create an app, and having that strong foundational layer, even simple things like, it's the cloud offering, first of all, you have a integrated development environment, you can start creating workflows, UI, all of that is so easy, and there's no headache of figuring out how to deploy the app, because it's right there, so you just publish it and you're done. >> Yeah, it's interesting, one of the first CUBE interviews we did at Knowledge was with Doug Leone, the famous VC, and he told the story of, he saw this, "What am I going to do with this?" And sent Fred away and said, "Build something on top of it," and that's what happened, but. But help our audience understand, CJ, because you talked about Jakarta today. >> Yeah. >> Now, Jakarta is a platform capability, and if we understand it correctly, we were talking about it earlier, the business units have to figure out, "Okay, how do we apply that capability "to our particular needs, and our customer needs," so explain that. >> Yeah, so ultimately, there are two things that happens in the products organization, right? First is, we do release this every six months, twice a year, so every six months, twice a year, and we go by alphabets, and we pick cities, just a fun factoid, we pick cities that go from North America or South America, to Europe, to Asia. So, H released last year, around this time, was Helsinki, after Helsinki was Istanbul, and then we have Jakarta, so are now in Asia, and then next will be Kingston, and the one after that is London, so you go alphabetically, and the reason we pick this city names in alphabets, we support our customers, because it's a multi-instance paradigm, n minus one and n minus two releases, so when you make, name of the cities, customers will have a conversation with me and say, "CJ, we went on Helsinki, we're upgrading to Istanbul, "or we're going to skip Istanbul, "and go straight to Jakarta," for example, so, first of all, that's our naming system that we use, every six months, you will see us talk about a specific release, and you heard from John yesterday, he was very clear in saying, "Listen, "our customers want to hear our roadmap, "they want to know what we are up to," and so we took that customer feedback to heart, and decided, why don't we just tell them what's coming in Jakarta? So Jakarta will be released this summer, and from a planning standpoint, Dave, to answer your question, we figure out first, what do our customers want, and is it in the applications that we talked about, like ITSM or CSM or security or HR, and for those applications to deliver the functionality, what do we need to do in the platform so that the functionality can be delivered? So the requirement process is a complex requirement process, the applications team will give requirements to the platform, customers also sometimes have requirements for the platform on scale, platform will build a functionality, applications team will build the features on top of it, so in Jakarta, which is coming out this summer, we have six new products, you saw some of them, software asset management and others, 30 major features, and that's close, so after Jakarta, we're already in planning for Kingston. After Kingston, I think I'm going to announce it for the first time, will be London, so it's Jakarta, Kingston, London, are the three-- >> Yeah, so when we go to these events, a lot of times, at the keynotes, somebody will make a product announcement and you get a little golf clap, it always happens at ServiceNow Knowledge that you get somebody hooting in the audience, today, the hoot came for software asset management, they were the three high level things you talked about today, performance with UX, and performance, and then the vendor risk management, which is very interesting, we'll talk about that a little bit, and then the software asset management, the guy must've been an Oracle customer hooting and hollering. But so, give us the high level overview. >> Alright, so, here is the thing, right? Our buyer is IT organization, we started with IT. We love our buyer, and CIO, to all the organizations that support CIO, head of infrastructure, the portfolio management team, the business management within IT. And one of the things that we saw, and this is the requirement that we got is, when we talk to CIOs about how to make the IT organization productive, because IT, it's a tough job, man, it's a tough job, things go down, you're like, "Okay, of course, IT," and technology's such an integral part of our life that people are always looking at IT to make sure they deliver great technologies. So, IT budget, and every, debated this all the time, everybody talks about IT budgets, what's happening to IT budgets, how the IT budget is going up or down, are you asked to do more with less, there are so many examples I can use, but as per Gartner, 25% of the IT budget is on software licensing. Then there is hardware and all the other infrastructure and people-related cost. 25%, so if, and as you know, some of the vendors put you through a pretty complex audit process, so why can't we, our chief buyer is IT, why can't we give them a platform, or a product, that allows them to discover how many products you are using by vendor, Microsoft, Oracle, some of you examples you used, for desktop, it's Adobe and others, you use these products, are you really utilizing all the licenses you have, or are you potentially in overage so that you actually have a sense of where you stand with every vendor that you're using that makes up your 25% budget. We talk to financial customers, manufacturing industrial customers, these are billions of dollars of budget, 25% is still a big number, any improvement in that 25% could go a long way, and what CFOs do not like is when CIOs go and tell the CFO, "Hey, we didn't clear this audit, "or potentially these guys may sue us "for a contract violation," so we decided we are going to create a product that helps you get a good posture on what your licensing is, does that make sense? And that's why, you know, I also saw on Twitter, a lot of people love this idea that, hey, can we automate this software as a management process, discover what's being deployed, allow you to reclaim, and at the end, help you save the cost. >> And the other one was the cloud management platform, which again, similar type of situation, especially with all the freemium services, and test dev, and card swiping, that they can get unruly pretty quickly. >> In my last job, as you are aware, I was in infrastructure space, and one of the things in speaking to customers, always realized that hey, IT was not agile enough, we decided, for some customers, we decided to go and use some of the public cloud services, re-enter infrastructure, because IT could not keep up with our demands, and you go and speak to IT, they say there is so much going on that sometimes it's not easy for devops communities, in particular, that you pointed out, so much going on. So, IT felt like they were losing control, developers, whether they're application developers in IT organization or in business units, just wanted agility, and IT felt like if they cannot deliver that level of service, you had the share-to-IT functions going on in the departments, and with cloud, we acquired a company called iTapp about a year ago in April. The first year was all focused on re-platforming, like I said today, I think many times, I'm sure people got sick of listening to me, is, we are going to re-platform every acquisition that we make, and we usually buy technologies in our business so far. And we re-platform it, and now, IT gets the control back, once for, you know, you help the developers, devops people, sure, go and use public cloud, but IT will still have a single pane of glass that allows you to look at your resource mapping, utilization, understanding the cost and the usage, whether you are on public cloud service, or in private cloud service. >> Well, it's huge, because it's very unpredictable, and people often complain, "Oh, I get the cloud bill at the end of the month," but a lot of times, there's not just one cloud bill, it's many, many cloud bills, and what happens, you know, you remember this, in the downturn, a lot of CFOs said, "Go to the public cloud, "eliminate Capax" and then, when we came out of the downturn, lines of business said, "I got to move fast, "and this cloud thing seems to be working for me." IT seems to have really, you know, in previous big picture trends like this, mega trends, IT oftentimes has been sort of pushing back, you saw that with client server. >> Yeah, their security concerns, compliances-- >> And today, they're announcing, okay, we have to embrace cloud, or we're toast. >> And Dave, I'll tell you, there are customers, I mean, some very large customers in regulated industries who tell me that, "CJ, we are now cloud first, "before we decide to do something," I mean, that's a pretty big statement, cloud first, I mean, if you remember 2008, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, that journey, and how customers were reluctant, and they're like, "I don't know, my data losing from here," and this and that-- >> Well, I got to bring this up, so, I was reading an article on SiliconANGLE, EMC World is going on, Dell EMC World this week, and Michael Dell basically made this statement in his keynote, "If you're a cloud first, "you could be in trouble because of the expanse," and so forth. I don't buy it. I think the other, I love you, Michael, but the value that customers are getting out of going cloud-first, maybe, yeah, maybe the bill at the end of the month is high, but the other residual effects on your business, the speed, the agility, the processes, you're seeing it, aren't you? >> I mean, I'll tell you straight up, there are customers that are asking us, because, you know, again, IT's our key buyer, and key customer, and we appeal to the IT department, and the CIOs, even at the CIO dinner the night before, people are embracing cloud. Now, they are on a journey, some of them have maybe mode few percent of their workload, some of them may have mode a little higher, but they're on some journey, and they're trying to balance when the cost pros out with the cons, or the cons out with the pros, but, can you give us some kind of control plane to manage our cloud resources, understand the usage, understand the billing, which we do for financial management, and tie-in with IT processes, because that resource life cycle, that VMU provision, right, that VMU provision in the cloud, what happens to the life cycle of VM, can you create an incident, can you close it out, that's equally important besides just saying, "Yeah, I'm going to move this particular workload to cloud." So I feel that customers are on this journey of some kind of combination of public and private cloud, and it doesn't have to be zero-sum game, infrastructure continues to grow, I don't feel like, okay, if you do this, that means you do not do private, or if you do private, that doesn't mean-- >> Certainly both, and containers are going to just exacerbate the problem. >> Right, and the demand for compute, store, and networking is not going down any time soon. >> I'll tell you, my role environment, so my team lends cloud infrastructure, so our platforms runs on cloud infrastructure, and you saw some of the elevated numbers, I mean, our growth, we are trying to invest in compute network storage ahead of our growth, so it's not, and we are a cloud service, so I always look at it as, this doesn't have to be zero-sum game, customers are expanding, they want the agility, like you said, the agility, the business is asking, "Can you develop this app faster, "can you give me what I need," is what's driving-- >> It's a topline game for businesses, Jeff, I just want to inject some of those numbers on your cloud, 50,000 instances, 150 million active users, and 10 billion transactions per month. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but I want to get, it's funny you're talking about Jakarta and London, I remember when we were doing interviews around Dublin, which I guess was a while ago, but I'm curious, 'cause there's this other trade-off, and get your perspective, is in a devops world, in kind of a continuous integration and development world, people want to push code frequently. On the other hand, in an enterprise world, and we've talked to a couple of customers, they can only take it so much, and so you've kind of got this yin and yang, and you want to get stuff out, and there's patches, and this and that, and you're on a relatively aggressive for current enterprise release schedule, on the other hand, the trend is clearly, just keep pumping it out, pumping it out, pumping it out, how do you see that kind of sorting itself out over time with these big enterprise customers? >> I will tell you, from a technology standpoint, there is nothing that prevents us from doing more frequent releases, yes, we have to mature our product release processes, we have to mature our cloud operations and how fast we can churn the code. There is nothing that prevents us, technically, from instead of two releases a year, maybe do four releases, it doesn't! But our customers, and we talk about customers first, listening to customers, you saw John today, I mean, we want to listen to them, and they will tell us, that I was at a large financial institution in Boston two weeks ago, and, your hometown, and they told me that, "I cannot do every six months, "I cannot do every six months, CJ, "we usually skip a release," right? And so we are just listening for specific use cases around service management, the processes, customer-run, same thing with operations management, right now, six months about feels right, every six months, release, we do quarterly patches, where we do not release features in those quarterly patches, and for emerging products, like you saw customer service, they challenge security, the team did a great job, when I look at those releases, is it potentially can we push things fast? Maybe, but right now, I'm okay, based on customer feedback. If customers come and say, "I want every three months," I hope to see what does that mean-- >> Let me run something by you, I told Jeff I've been sharing cabs with practitioners all week, it's great to just have wonderful conversations, and one said to me, "I've asked ServiceNow "if they can give me more granularity in the releases," I said, that doesn't sound trivial, in other words, if I can selectively choose features, is that even technically feasible? >> I mean, this is the isolating the feature, micro-feature development, making sure your schema is abstracted enough, I mean, there are companies in consumer world who do that, and push code out really fast. I would say, right now, one of the requirements I do get is, we're on IT service management, we have been a customer of ServiceNow for a while, but on this other thing, say, customer service, or HR, I want to take the new features, so my IT service management is at, say, Helsinki, but I want to take the HR, like the onboarding you saw, the onboarding, which is in Jakarta. So does that mean I need to upgrade this thing to leverage the HR feature? The answer is yes, because it's all built on single platform. Now, I do not want to do where customers, we give them two instances, and then we do a back-end pipe integration, a connector, so you can be on Helsinki for ITSM, and Jakarta, that-- >> Architecturally-- >> That breaks our model, and I do not want to do that. There are companies who, say, reside in different tenant, and will give you one for, I do not want to do that. >> I wanted to ask you about this too, CJ, because, you have a dogma, you have your own cloud, you see a lot of SaaS companies now saying, okay, you see Workday, a little bit of Salesforce, certainly Infor, putting their applications on AWS, for example. You guys, very proud of your cloud, you have availability, and I think when you show availability numbers, you downplay it, actually, people don't understand this, you're talking about application availability, you're not talking about the server light-- >> No. >> Okay, so you're very dogmatic about your cloud, and this issue here, you won't do something that maybe is going to help one customer but is going to ruin the experience down the road for all, and that dogma, is that a valid, it's not a criticism, it's an observation, and is that a good thing? >> So I would say there are some design principles, or operational principles that we live with, and we are going to stick to them, like we talk about acquisitions and re-platforming, think about, Dave, you have somebody coming in, you acquire a machine learning company, really smart kids, really smart people, machine learning or data sciences, an art more than a science, and looking at prediction accuracies and things like that. Now you tell them, "Welcome to ServiceNow, "here's your badge, you just got onboarded, "it's great what you've built, "we are not going to sell that standalone, "you need to re-platform," which typically takes one year, "Before we can launch your product." That's a tough message. That's a tough message for an engineering team to hear, that now I have to figure out how does this platform work, I mean, if I had a magic bullet, I would tell you, if I can wave the magic wand, I'll say, acquire this technology in machine learning AI, combine that with our organic development, it's a re-platform and I have a toolkit that does this thing, and it is a re-platform, but that's not easy. So on these kind of principles, whether it's re-platforming, how we do the releases, how we look at the cloud, and I want to answer your public cloud question. Right now, as you know, we're active, active, I've seen your interviews in the past here, we're active, active, we have eight pair of data centers, 16 around the world, and we make sure with our multi-instance architecture, the availability of the uptimes are very high for our customers, and when they upgrade, we know, they can pull the upgrade, "I'm going, CJ, "from Helsinki to Istanbul, or Helsinki to Jakarta," and that's available, but, can we potentially look at moving our footprint, and renting infrastructure in a public cloud? I'll never say never, but right now, there is no need for it. >> No, you see it, and there are advantages to having your own cloud. I want to ask about your role as Chief Product Officer. Fred Luddy had that title, we were sort of joking earlier, Fred was a coder, the company brought Frank in for adult supervision, and so you're inheriting that title, but I sense that you're a different type of manager, what do you bring to ServiceNow? >> I'll tell you, first of all, Fred, Frank, and even Dan McGee, who had this role last year, he was here, I saw his interview, he's here today, phenomenal people, I mean, I have interacted with all three of them, Dan McGee helped me transition into my role, Frank hired me, and just great, great guy, and even with Fred, going through this user experience, how do I think about the user experience based on the persona, he's always there to provide input with lots and lots energy and feedback. So let me just tell you for, in less than 30 seconds, what my role is, right? My role is, I help platform team, and the cloud infrastructure team, that's lead by Pat Casey, who is doing CreativeCon tomorrow, I have individual application general managers that you saw some of them today, and I also have the customer support organization, and the user experience teams. So that's my overall responsibility, so it's the responsibility that Fred Luddy had til last October, and Dan McGee had til last December, combined into one. So, it's a big job, and it comes with a lot of responsibilities on behalf of our customers, you talk about high availability number, we help to make sure that we keep our cloud service up and running secure, but at the same time, bringing this innovation in platform and the applications is my job. So, I'd done, fortunately, when I started out of college, makes me sound old, I know, but when I came out of college, I worked for a company that was doing business applications for a long time, eight years there, and I worked in that applications technology team, I worked in the CRM applications, did things for financial applications, and I went on security software, understanding how you protect the applications you write, all the way from OS up to the application stack, and then I worked for a infrastructure company, as you know. So that gave me a really good feel on the entire stack, how do you scale that stack, and be maniacally focused on, what do customers want? I mean, I am very fortunate to have great customer relationships, many companies around the globe, I reach out to them, ask them, tell me what you think, tell me what we are doing well, so customer focus, having done product development for 20-plus years now, and understanding all the way from application stack to the underlying infrastructure, is where I can help-- >> Yeah, it's like a triple threat that you have, the product innovation, the enterprise class, security, and scaling, as you mentioned, very, very important. Alright, CJ, I love having you on theCUBE, you're a great guest, we could continue, but we got to leave it right there. Great to see you again-- >> Thank you, thank you so much, I really appreciate it. >> Alright, keep it right there, everybody, we'll be back with our next guest, this is theCUBE, we're live from Knowledge17, we'll be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCUBE covering ServiceNow Knowledge17 brought to you by ServiceNow. >> We're back this is Dave Vellante with Jeff Frick Rob McDonnell is here he's the head of Enterprise Products at Air New Zealand Rob thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> My pleasure thanks for having me. >> So Air New Zealand you know energy costs are down that's good for the airline business isn't it. >> Anything that's good for the barrel price of oil. >> It's priced like a tax cut to the consumer, we all go traveling. Tell us a little about the organization and your role. So we're in New Zealand headquartered out of Auckland in New Zealand Asia Pacific based but we have routed that travel to London as well. Asia Pacific is our core business. I'm part of the Digital Leadership team in the Enterprise Products, that's products like a typical IT function would run, like a CIO would run. So we have a product organization which we've had in place for the last year and a half. One of the product managers looks after our customers. So for online booking, mobile app and customer experience, one of my colleagues looks after the operational products another colleague looks after air points products with the frequent flier program. And I look after everything else internally so you've got HR products, you've got finance, help desk, incident management, we've got mobility, offices, workspace and collaboration, so there's really quite a bit in there. >> So what are the big drivers in your business that are affecting those things that you look after. >> Probably the primary one now is the new focus and a renewed focus on the internal customer. Since we started in this role a year and a half ago I've been mandating and championing the cause of the internal customer. Typically, it's about the revenue and the external customer but for me it's about the internal customer. And I've got 12 and a half thousand Air New Zealanders that I consider my customers. Those guys are the ones that wake up in the morning, they look at their Apple watch and check a message, or they login in the morning and that experience has to be correct, it has to be right when they walk into the office and when they swipe in with a badge or want to do something like get a payroll slip or something. That experience is my primary driver. So, we're looking at typifying what we have so fixing the pain-points is probably my first thing. Remove all the pain points out of the way of my customers my users, make sure they can operate. Make the job the challenge, not the tools they are using. Focusing on mobility, so focusing on the more mobile workforce that we have. I'd reckon about 60% of my user base is considered mobile. We got crew and pilots that you wouldn't see in the head office from one day to the next. A big push on cloud for obvious reasons, and then future workspace. >> So tell us about your ServiceNow journey, when did that start? >> So our ServiceNow journey started just over a year and a half ago. We had quite a frustrating environment where we had a bad reputation for digital services. People weren't too happy calling our help desk. The name of the product we had was called assist an internally branded product, people called it Cease and desist, the reputation was, we had a bad reputation. So one of our primary goals was to get that reputation back, earn it back and really try and delight out customers. So we had gone through some product selection and ServiceNow came right on top and was the product of choice for us to implement. So we were able to replace four platforms with ServiceNow. We had one platform we buying parts off the internet a couple things to keep it going, so was a bit of a shaky situation. Bad user experience, so implementing ServiceNow we made sure that we took a, when we did the reorganization for digital, we stopped the project and changed it to be a business organizational change project not an IT project. So it wasn't IT delivering a product to the business it was a business choice and a business decision so we changed, stopped the project, introduced and implemented change management as part of the project, we brought in different skills in terms of Agile ways of working and we changed the product structure as well to suit. We went live with an MVP last year, we pushed out redesigned platform January last year, was about 70% ready, so again it was a new feeling for Air New Zealand staff having a product that wasn't perfect, but just suited for going live. And then we went live with the full suite of what we were doing in June, July last year. It's been an awesome journey. >> So you made the decision to sweep the floor of these four other platforms. At the point at which you made that decision you did a contract with ServiceNow. What happened, how long did it take you to get to that MVP, what did you have to do. I mean the old saying is God created the world in six days but he didn't have an install base. You had to deal with that existing infrastructure how did you go from that point to the MVP how long did it take? >> Our approach was to, we were trying to de-risk or learn more about what the experience is going to be for our customers, so we went live, onboard in Helsinki so one of the first customers to go live on the Helsinki product. In the interim, we took the existing platform and we reskinned it with a brand new look and feel. The brand new look and feel was around how we wanted our customers to experience service management. So we followed them in terms of their role rather than just rolling out the product. So we reskinned the existing product and we reiterated and reiterated on what they wanted. Changing the features in the screen and rolling that one out. So we knew we had a really really good product and on the day we went live, we just basically flipped the switch. We didn't carry over any existing tickets, migrated hardly any of the data, started from scratch basically by flicking a switch. The product we went live with on the ServiceNow platform looked exactly like the one we reskinned in preparation for when we de-risked it. >> How long did that take to get to MVP? >> MVP was about two months and we included design. Then the remainder was about three months. >> What are some of the things you're measuring in terms of the customer satisfaction? Obviously nobody is saying cease and desist anymore. But what are some of the things you are measuring getting feedback from your internal customers? >> People like the product they like the platform. They like the fact that we can access it on a mobile phone. Which again, is a new thing for internal staff and Air New Zealanders. Along side the digital changes we were making some physical changes too. So we introduced a new help desk along side both at the airport and in the city offices. So again, people were getting physical and digital experience when we went live. And like I said I like the product, I like the simplicity and our business partners enjoy the speed that they can get catalog items up and get their teams more efficient and more effective. The ability to do pre-approved changes has driven a lot of efficiency, I think we have over 75% of pre-approved changes. We had things like I think 26% of our calls to the help desk were for password resets we're using this took to help reduce those numbers. We introduced a new MPS score as well or a digital happiness score for our internal customers. So we have it for external, so we've introduced that for internal. We promote that on the front of our portal as well so people can give us feedback in terms of what they like and what they don't like. So it's fairly responsive in how we react to what they want in the product. >> You avoided custom modules or did you do some custom modification to the platform? >> Mainly configuration to get it where we wanted to go. The look and feel in the portal was fairly custom but using code components available on the platform. >> Yeah, so when you upgrade you don't have to do the heavy wrestling with the modules. >> No it was an easy journey. >> And then how about a single CMDB is that something that you guys have adopted. >> So CMDB we delayed until this year. We're actually starting it next month. >> What's the conversation like internally around CMDB? Is it, you got a lot of different parts of the organization and is it going to be a single CMDB for the entire organization or are there going to be multiple CMDB's? >> So it's a big, scary topic, and the lady we're getting on, we're talking about it in iterative approach start small and build out. Primarily it will be the core enterprise stack, shared services stack, then we need to look at, and again it's wonderful being here at Knowledge and learning how far people are pushing it in terms of their external customers, so I'm looking at operations, I'll be looking at IoT and figuring how I can use that platform to be more effective. Having the CMDB will be a good starting block for that. >> You said IoT. >> So opportunities for us are around, we're an airline we have plans, we have power machines, we have engines on planes so you would have heard GE being mentioned quite a bit here. So what's the opportunity with those products and how can we use service management for event management of those stacks? When we think about the digital workplace environment and the connected devices, how do we use ServiceNow in that environment and how do we use it effectively? I think there's a great opportunity for us there. >> Can you take us back into the discussions internally when you had to sell the project internally to the management. Who did you have to involve, what was the business case? >> I think the business case was primarily lead by IT. Or the old IT because it was our product. All the onus on the project resided in IT, so I think the sale around the cost of the platform the duration on implementation, it wasn't too hard to sell in terms of the risk we were carrying on the legacy platforms. I think the opportunity if you flip it around the other side it was an easier conversation to our customers to say this is what you're getting and they were quite keen and quite eager to get involved in the implementation. >> What have you seen so far, it's early days but what kind of results have you seen? Can you share any metrics with us? >> I'll give you some indications early on about pre-approved changes and we have a bit of a, I'll defer on the exact numbers on our desk, we have so many parameters going on in New Zealand it wouldn't be fair to anybody. >> Well so just generally the business impact how would you describe that? >> Very positive, so we use it in the GSS area so Group Shared Services, so they're finding it far more effective to engage with their teams allocating work and automating the workflow. We have quite a queue, quite a backlog of other areas that want to get involved and automate and optimize. >> Where do you see this platform going? Do you see it driving into different parts of the business? We hear a lot about that at this conference is that something that you guys are looking at? >> Yeah, we rolled out to a group, our ground service equipment team, so they use it for example, a rampload or someone on the tarmac notifying a vendor that there is something wrong with a piece of equipment. So that optimizes that flow. So we're saving them hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. So that's quite an efficiency gain. So looking to push into again, more HR and finance, Group Shared Services. Looking to optimize against our work day implementation in July, so make sure those two platforms work together very well and build a platform appropriately. >> OK, so you'll bring in the HR piece, is that right? >> Yeah, we'll need to find a, I've been having lots of conversations the last few days around how those two behemoth products fit together how you use them effectively and that's where we need to get to. So how do you use a portal on the front end to make it easier for the customer or the user to do what they want without having to think about what platform they need to go to. >> How about the show? You mentioned it's great being here, as a quasi-noob. Is this your first? >> This is my first Knowledge. I think it's fantastic. >> Things you've learned? What kinds of things are exciting you here? >> I like the ServiceNow people amazing, passionate, including the guys back in Australia and New Zealand a few of them are here, I can see the passion back there and I can see it here so it's quite collegial and it's amazing to see. I think the event's awesome, it's massive. Keynote was fantastic, it was really good. And just the energy with the vendors and the passion that people have for their customers and the business value they can get from this product, that's one of the key things I'm hearing from all the conversations. >> It sounds like you're getting what's been talked about over and over which is such the peer input in terms of helping you figure out where you're going to go next. >> Yeah, lot's of people are here to learn, but also lots of people are here to share and I'm learning that time and time again. Which is great. >> Rob thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your story. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome. >> Alright keep it right there everybody we'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Knowledge17. Be right back.

live from las vegas it's the cube covering knowledge 60 brought to you by service now here your host dave vellante and Jeff Frick welcome back to knowledge 16 everybody this is the cube this is day two for the cube at knowledge our fourth year here cube goes out to the events we extract the signal from the noise we find the people that really know what they're talking about April Carter is a practitioner she's a senior IT operations manager at cars.com you want when a car go check out cars.com April thanks for coming on the cube thank you so take us inside well first of all talking about cars com I mean very competitive industry you're in right very competitive lots of merging market you're transforming thing you're disrupting and you're banging heads with everybody else is trying to do that but what's happening in the business what are the real pressures that are they're putting on i.t coming up with those new services really and really delivering quickly so we're very much anjel shops and we're doing continuous integration and continuous delivery is the big things for us right now the need for speed but so take us inside the world of IT Service Management your world you know what's it like so basically our transformation was you think of us of us accom so you think that were you know ahead of them a game but when I got two cars they were very paper and spreadsheet driven email is still even still very key to what we do you're rolling your eyes when you say that we can relate it annoys me so you know what service now has really helped us to really start that process and really rethink the services we deliver to our employees so everybody thinks of that external face to cars.com and that's what we focus on so much and we forget that internal phase so making things easier for our employees okay so um maybe start with the the journey of service now you you brought service now into the organization three years ago you had had experience in prior lives with not with service now but with other itsm vendors and they have always been very painful so when we did our bake off on what product that we were going to use you know when they came in they weren't we weren't really considering them a contender how long ago was this sorry two three years okay um but when they came in and they did their demo that you you know we were in the system and we're like this is a little too good to be true and then they say they we could be implemented in three months were like yeah right right that never happens but it all came to fruition and we were implemented with you know incident problem changed the basics you know knowledge an employee self-service portal with probably 30 or so orderable IIT items and it was a big deal for us and a huge success and how long did it take uh three months three months then you got a cake we did get a game everybody gets in here they don't miss daddy must have that in service now so they don't miss that reverse process okay so what was so the cars before was really paper-based spreadsheet based email base what was the business impact the business impact is really trying to drive our business partners in HR and in even in the development space to really try to rethink the way they interact internally so HR we implemented an onboarding automation so we went from multiple forms that we had to fill out as hiring managers to down to one so that was a big deal for us plus we were manually creating user accounts we were manually provisioning and how hardware and access we went through the entire process of about six months after we implemented service now to really try to grab ahold of that process and make it easier because we were delivering our new employees they're all of their things on time that first day because that's our goal but it was extremely painful for the service desk and those folks that Purdue that provisioning so we wanted to make it easier for them and we were able to okay so you you you brought in HR is Ellis recruiting but yeah okay HR pieces a little bit more difficult so we have let we left that piece out so we said onboarding yep you met onboarding so for my recruiting so as a hiring manager you basically submit the form to hire somebody and then all the way through to provisioning all their heirs and that inner integrates or interfaces in some way shape or form with your HR system or um it doesn't today it integrates with the recruiting system right okay which is separate from the HR system am okay and how does that integration occur so basically what what we did was we stood up a form within our catalog so as a hiring manager I can fill out all the information I need from the position that I'm filling through you know their salary requirements and all that kind of stuff plus all of their access they need once that person is hired all that's in there that in that form I can also save that form so as I need it in the future because I'm never going to remember what each person needs so i can say that form as well but then what service now does it sends that all that data over to Silk Road and actually implements all that data for the recruiters so they don't have to manually enter it because they were manually entering it before how do you find stuff ready listen giant content repository all right search it's just we have great search capabilities yeah yeah so this is that simple yeah cuz I could never find anything in my laptop uh-huh I'm very organized so it's one of those things that the the CMS that we had a portal that we have implemented now the design when we were implementing cuz it was three months we didn't really were thinking about everything it was a very broad scope when we were implementing so we didn't really think too heavily on a design of the portal and i think that the organization of the portals what probably annoys me the most at this point because people have to navigate through so much so with the news i'm very excited about the new CMS that they're pulling in helsinki which will actually help us to actual redesign that portal and get it so it's not so deep so as you say it's very hierarchical before yes and so now you're you're able to develop up with hell sinking a flatter structure exactly and it's much more easy to manage because right now it's kind of hard to manage especially if you don't have the technical skill set to do so because it's it's not easy it's more like nested folders versus labels exactly love labels so jizz so talk some more about the kinds of things that that you want to do with with the platform so there's a couple things we really want to push HR so HR is very very paper-based they love their paper actually so we implemented a take my paper ok what's your week HR status change form that you know it's a very very large process so any any time you want to change an employee status whether it's giving them a raise or changing their their location that they're based we fill out this foot paper form so we automated that and put it into service now it goes through approval processes so it's even auditable now or at least much easier to audit it and at the end of the design process was the HR folks are like well as long as I can print it out at the end I'll be fine yeah not really the point uploaded to ever know ok the other really thing that we're really excited about is actually so with the continuous delivery continuous integration that we're doing on the development side is we're opening up a lot of API is that our developers can use to automate a lot of their processes so we want to automate our release cycles right now everything's somewhat manual when we're doing release there's still people at the keyboard it's not wholly up manual but we want to get to that point where they just click on something in JIRA and it initiates the Jenkins Jenkins crates you know changes and it automates it all for them but it's still completely auditable from our perspective if you had to take a creative benefits pie and and you how to allocate a portion of the value let's say that's received by sort of IT versus outside of IT what would that pie look like I would say the biggest benefit is you know that an employee's so my goal is is to make the employees life easier I mean and that's the way I evangelize the product it's really what can I do to make your life easier what can I do to take some process it's very heavy and make it lighter for you that's the biggest biggest benefit the other thing is the ease of development on the tool so we don't want to go out and buy something every time a developer decides it wants to do something else so the ease of development so we can build small ABS we have a library app so they can check out kindle books I can check out Kendall even logins and within the tool that they're just little apps we're not going to go somewhere and buy that but we need to be able to do that so we can do that easily within the tool and it's funny in making the employees job easier is this nice second order effect where your phone doesn't ring exactly that's my goal are you don't tell him that little secret we were just doing it for you April could you talk about building these you know lightweight apps well describe the skill set of the people who are building these apps so they hard core developers or they locoed developers both I think its a mix of both so we some hard core developers that JavaScript pretty much 24 7 and then we have you know the admins who I can I code it within the tool myself but I'm definitely not a developer but it makes it easy enough for me to be able to do those little snippets of code that i need to make form easier for somebody to make it prettier to make it behave lightweight as so you're not you've never been a developer you've never written no code no never i still do it never works in pewter science major no ok but so you know you said no like okay so uh so you're smart this is ok all right ok but and so i want to dig it to level but so you are able to build apps or at least improve apps absolutely and I think there's there's multiple ways to do it obviously research the internet can tell me how to do a lot of stuff the community has been very helpful there's a also share the where you can find you know little little apps that will help you along your way as well so they make it very easy to actually kind of build out your core product did you have to go through training to get to that point or was it just sort of autodidactic or Ashley knowledge has been most of my training we didn't training at the beginning when we implemented but I haven't taken a look at training sense and you mentioned JIRA and just every tonight these stories make me think of JIRA it sounds like you know using kind of best practice in the hardcore software development part of the house and now bringing that over into the less hardcore software development side of the house but still very similar types of techniques and processes absolutely yeah that's great so bumper sticker on knowledge 16 for you what's the way they wouldn't when the trucks are pulling away from the Mandalay Bay was from April Carter standpoint what's it gonna say so the one thing there's a couple things I guess you know I did I always find vendors it at the show so I found we're implementing move soft right now it's a it's an event management tool and we're literally going through the process as we're here at the conference but it's it's an event management tool it I can't I in service now i can create manage my critical instant through being the OC critical incidents are my my bread and butter I have to make sure that those go off well and they that we reduce that time and i always find products here that I'm like oh I want to look into that we found one downstairs just yesterday that help is gonna help us and hopefully manage our mobile communications so all the cell phones and tablets and everything that we have in our orders and then dealing with the external vendors like Verizon and AT&T have been fun maybe not quite fun yeah I'm surprised something good here and and I learn a lot a new thing so it's it's always been very helpful how many years have you been coming um this will be my fourth your fourth all right same as ours too yeah April an awesome having you thanks so much for coming on the cube you know cube newbie did a great job awesome yeah you're a cube alone I here alone all right thank you thank you okay keep right here everybody will be back with our next guest is the cube we're live from knowledge 16 in Las Vegas bright back every once in a while a true break

live from Las Vegas it's the cute covering knowledge 16 brought to you by service now hear your host dave vellante and Jeff Frick we're back this is the cube silicon angles flagship production we go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise the signal here at servicenow knowledge 16 is the extension of service management across the enterprise Brian Andrews is here is a vice president of IT it's stone brewing cube alum bride great to see you again thank you it's great to be here nice to see you guys another knowledge you know I thought happened a good energy this year yeah you know I spent third knowledge how's this week been for you oh it's a blast yeah incredible energy and growth and excitement from the company the partners it's been fun so third nology that service now for two years yeah right and so what the first knowledge was sort of come and kicking yeah exactly talking all the customers is this stuff Rio exactly last year we got to speak and this year were in the customer showcase which is new one of four and telling our story about what we did and meeting other customers and partners it's fun so give us the update what's the story um you guys are growing yeah yeah so stone brewing we're the 10th largest craft beer company in the country and growing double-digit growth so yeah we're now opening a second brewery in Richmond Virginia and a third in Berlin Germany doing two at the same time which is pretty nuts for us it's a du Bois so it's a large focus for the company we're actually the first American craft brew company to open a brewery anywhere in Europe and to operate it we're on right to Berlin and in Germany hell with us I know right right into the fire I doubt well I talk about that business decision to go into Germany I mean beer central I know I know well crap beer starting to really take off in Europe and we were looking at sites all through Europe and really fell in love with this property in brillion it's a old gas works facility brick a neat place for garden inside it's just really a neat place but the crappier movements has a lot of energy there and we feel like that can be our European hub to brew and distribute throughout Europe so it's a great spot a great place to come visit and spend the day and enjoy the gardens and that's gonna be a lot of time we have a really a large bistro going in as well so it could be a place you want to stay and hang all day yeah girls that's right that's right and house I'm just curious we don't find you know kind of the German purity laws are there special you know Germany's a very special place to do business for a whole lot of reasons HR reasons and data privacy reasons and this that and the other from the brewery perspective you know we hear about their purity laws do you have to you have to follow those is your new animal as an American craft beer manufacturer how does that work well so most of our beer that we do the core beers they do fit right into that our stone IPA arrogant bastards they fit in but we do a lot that do not fit in because we add in espresso or tangerine or good stuff like that so we're purposely going to be knocking down that bureaucracy and being rebellious we had a event last week where we served only beers that did not comply with the law true to our culture were rebels and it's exciting for us so i have to say i mean german beer is special I'd consume a lot of German of year in my day and somehow the next day you just feel great yeah absolutely is that the experience with stone yeah yeah it's gonna be you know I think a new to get the strong you know bitter forward hot forward IPAs that we serve will be different that's awesome now you guys you find you saying brought in service now from the business side yeah first we did an NIT but you but you led that acquisition so two years ago we were looking at putting in a set of systems for the business each group had their own needs and they had selected systems they want to bring in the brew ops maintenance was number one that we needed to serve as a use case so the demand was really growing for our beer as it's been we need to keep up with the demand and so we can't have the brewing and down we were turning to a 24-7 operation and the brewery anytime a piece of equipment was down we're not getting beer to our fans I'm not serving our customers so we we needed something for planned maintenance to keep that equipment rolling facilities wanted something as well for maintaining the facilities and HVAC units and all that safety I wanted something for reporting incidents they were all all those groups were outlook and excel and so they needed a system they didn't have one we had some project management needs in our marketing group and of course I T wanted a great system too so we looked at those and said we can collapse all these down into one system with service now because in the end they had a common set of requirements they wanted workflow and reporting and visibility work order management so we did some proof of concepts and they bought in and we deployed service now to the business first because they had nothing at least I t had something it was antiquated we had something so we serve we serve them first and so you're one was all about putting those platforms in place to crawl walk and then you're too we're optimizing and now we report some with some terrific results that have come out now by using it I get a triple it and take it overseas no you go right straight to the run that's right that's right and fly haha so as you grow what role do you see service now playing I mean have you been able to sort of sense or measure the productivity impacts and we've had some great results that come out of this so our brewing department as I said they need to keep that equipment rolling any downtime was hurting us we cut the downtime in half by using planned maintenance and so we use not only the corrective work orders but planning's we have 2200 items from the brewery and packaging in our cmdb we're unplanned maintenance against those now half of the work orders that were completing our plan preventative in nature those were a very small percentage earlier it was more reactive and corrective moving to planned we're more on top of things more proactive and the equipment's up and running longer so she's meant to the CMDB so you if you've got a single cmdb or you there we do yeah single cmdb for all the brewing and packaging equipment and it's all as a nice data hierarchy so we can know that it's the escondido brewery it's brewhouse one and it's the latter ton and that has valves and pumps and sensors now those items might be used at other pieces of equipment too so we can put those assign them to different items in the CMDB but it's all in there and organized and we can you know see how we're doing on cost control and when we need to replace equipment or maintain it and on the preventative is it implementing you know suggested best practices by the manufacturer of those components or did you guys come up with your own kind of maintenance schedule based on operating experience etc yeah primarily from the maintenance from the manufacturer so we have those in is knowledge articles as well and then week but we have around procedures that we also would put in there and those those are put through in the work order so the technicians can see those and then one thing that's really nice is when we have down time in the brewery for maybe the brewing team is doing training we can see all the planned maintenance coming up and accelerate some so we may have something for next week we can move it up by a few days or something we may want to delay so we can have less downtime and group it together and do that maintenance all at once what kind of modifications have you did you have to make or did you have to make bringing in service now well we were a little on the bleeding edge in some cases a couple years ago as we were putting in the facilities maintenance and the planned maintenance so that was just starting to come out with service now so we had to build some custom tables and are we want to make sure it made sense for the the context so we had crafting assets and crafting systems those kinds of things so the business contact makes sense but those are now coming in out of the box so we're starting to pull back on the customization so it was not too bad a few things now as we excited the facilities and safety we want to make sure we could tag items if there's a leaking valve or exposed why are those kinds of things we can tag it as a facilities issue a brewing ops issue but also note it as a safety issue Safety's big it's down we're going to make sure it's a safety safe environment for our team we've cut injuries in half by having a focus on people and training the processes but also having this too well now to make all the issues visible and real-time so we're having a hundred percent increase in safety issues reported to us so we can see more they were out there before and weren't being reported or lost an email in Excel so we're seeing those now more proactive fixing and cut injuries in half we're really proud of that talk about the process behind that because we always talk about the you know the people process technology technologies one piece a fool with a tool you have blob of ulva all the little idioms but you're using service now as a platform to enter those incidents those safety incidents but somebody's got to actually do that right so then is it the person who got injured and what's the incentive for them doing that or explain the process behind that while safety is woven into our culture so we want to make sure day one everyone knows that's critical for us we want to leave as safe as healthy as you were when you started your day so what we have is that that form is available through our Service Catalog along with IT requests facilities request burry there's a safety incident you can report those come through from the team member that saw it so it could be the person that experienced it or someone who saw something and maybe they're working at the packaging line and they see something that could be an issue so those those could be sent through easily on a tablet or from their workstations and then the safety manager gets alerted to that works the q's runs the reports passes it to who's in charge it may be fixed by the facility's team or an engineer so they pass those tickets along that's a real plus for us having that on one system because originally the brewing folks wanted their system they were used to and that was different than what facilities had used before or safety in their previous companies but bringing it all together in one they can pass those tickets long and tracking a lot easier in one system then you're able to identify commonalities and an attack like they showed this morning's keynote the big red box you know that's right and so you were able to drill down into those and then try to put in new processes yeah remedi eight and of course all the categories what types of injuries are happening you can focus on the top ones you know is it slip and falls or lifting or forklift and those tie into then training and certification and getting people recertified so it starts the tide of learning management program as well but the other thing we hear over and over is that in the the implementation and execution with service and out and in department a and then it integrates over to b c and d and they start to say hey we want to do this two of every are you seeing a proliferation beyond kind of what your core initial delivery was oh absolutely yeah people are there's a conga line we like to say people waiting to get on our next is going to be project management for getting a new beer released so that's a seven month process or so to get from concept to actually getting the beer out the door and so we're going to be putting that all in service now for project management and having those tasks visible for everyone involved it's a really cross-functional effort to get a beer released and many different groups have to collaborate and making that visible in a single place single plan having dependencies in there and what we love about the project management suite is that the work being done is in the project plan but it's also the tasks that could assign the people to do the work and if they're getting production support or incidents that come through they can see that and there my work use along with their project work all in one place so we're really excited about putting in project management ago what are you using today for project management well for that new beer process that's a lot of Excel spreadsheets and email some document word docs those kinds of things but we have MS project and project server that we're using for construction projects but there's a lot of manual work that goes with that yet will you and have you when we will start with have you when you brought in service now were you able to retire some systems did you get rid of stuff well for IT we had a system it was the tracking system from BMC so that's one we wanted to replace so we're rolling it out for IT was a big win and that's now gotten pretty far wording incidents and change we'd like to get into problem and really start to mature that but we put the business first so I t's taking the backseat on resources but it's definitely we're well past where we were before so we'll be putting the assets in the database for IT as we've done for the brewing equipment and the facilities equipment and really build out IT ahead but ms project will definitely be retired as you move and most of the other ones the media department has a system they used called a sauna and they use that for project management that will also go when we have the new beer system getting launched with project management do you how do you deal with the organization or is their organizational friction people say want to hang on to the last user ah the other stretcher right right how do you deal with that ah well so most of the folks were using outlook and excel so those are pretty easy they really they needed something and didn't have it so those were easier wins but you know there's some the change management interesting because when you look in the magic quadrant you know what's the best maintenance management systems or project management systems and service now yet isn't out there right because it's the best in service management but getting people to see that it can also be a terrific system for project management or maintenance is a bit of a stretch right so you have to show them really well what is it you really need what are those requirements so let me show you so we've done some proof of concepts and that's been helpful to get people to see as well and believe because they see it as an IT system mostly when they go look it up but we've shown what we're doing and they get it it's exciting so we started last year we talked about time to value when we sort of joked time to beer right have you been able to actually quantify that do you see faster time to beer well it's like having that brewery equipment up and running has been big for us and cutting that in half of the down time we're getting the beer out the door so that has been the biggest win for us really I think with the seven-month new beer release process although cutting that time down isn't the number one driver of that it's more about getting it visible and collaboration and people working Heather I think that that's will be pleasantly surprised with how that's going to decrease so give us the road map over the next 12 12 months what do you be working on what's what's exciting you yeah so a couple of big things so we'll be doing that new beer project management we're also gonna be integrating with our ERP system so for the team that's getting those that maintenance requests in for the brewery they want to get those parts consumed from our European get the parts in we can track the total cost of the maintenance that's going on but also trigger reorders for the parts based on min values in our ERP so that'll be a nice integration will do the new beer and then we want to get IT mature through the IT Service Management and we're seeing so many great things with that performance analytics that's exciting to us because we're getting a lot of data good operational reports but we'd love to get some of that predictive business intelligence coming so those are a couple areas we're really looking at this year and I think also making take advantage of that the tools to make the user interface really nice-looking will be great so our service portal Service Catalog has a lot of great items on there but it doesn't look that great yes we're gonna make it look slick with some of the new tools and I guess helsinki's got some really good so you service now for that ui/ux yeah and yep NP you say bringing forth part parts of Helsinki yeah yeah so we're upgrading later this summer we're moving to Geneva in a couple of weeks and then we'll be really focusing later in the summer and making that service catalogue look good now stones got some beautiful imagery we have great shots of the beer and our facilities really great external when people see stone has really just terrific images and videos we want to make that look as good on the inside as it does on the outside for a fan so people come in and join the company and see how good we are on the inside too that's important to us so who does that beautification do you have a UI UX team that does that or is it just what you guys are pretty small team only 17 and IT that take care of a thousand team members so we have we're stretched pretty thin we have a terrific system administrator who also does development you and another gentleman that works on our websites so I think collaborating together and the tools that are available I think we'll be able to make it look good internally and we feel you have some great partners as well awesome yeah all right Brian listen thanks for coming back to the the cube and sharing your stories it's we love having stone brewing on any time so you'll appreciate it thank you very much guys appreciate being here logo all right I keep right there buddy right the cube would be back right after this at knowledge 16 Vegas right back every once in a while