>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Much of the discussion around Intel's current challenges, is focused on manufacturing issues and it's ongoing market share skirmish with AMD. Of course, that's very understandable. But the core issue Intel faces is that it has lost the volume game forever. And in Silicon volume is king. As such incoming CEO Pat Gelsinger faces some difficult decisions. I mean, on the one hand he could take some logical steps to shore up the company's execution, maybe outsource a portion of its manufacturing. Make some incremental changes that would unquestionably please Wall Street and probably drive shareholder value when combined with the usual stock buybacks and dividends. On the other hand, Gelsinger could make much more dramatic moves shedding it's vertically integrated heritage and transforming Intel into a leading designer of chips for the emerging multi-trillion dollar markets that are highly fragmented and generally referred to as the edge. We believe Intel has no choice. It must create a deep partnership in our view with a semiconductor manufacturer with aspirations to manufacture on US soil and focus Intel's resources on design. Hello, everyone. And welcome to this week's Wikibon's Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis will put forth our prognosis for what Intel's future looks like and lay out what we think the company needs to do not only to maintain its relevance but to regain the position it once held as perhaps the most revered company in tech. Let's start by looking at some of the fundamental factors that we've been tracking and that have shaped and are shaping Intel and our thinking around Intel today. First, it's really important to point out that new CEO Gelsinger is walking into a really difficult situation. Intel's ascendancy and its dominance it was created by PC volumes. And its development of an ecosystem that the company created around the x86 instruction set. In semiconductors volume is everything. The player with the highest volumes has the lowest manufacturing costs. And the math around learning curves is very clear and it's compelling. It's based on Wright's law named after Theodore Wright T.P Wright. He was an aeronautical engineer and he discovered that for every cumulative doubling of units manufactured, costs are going to fall by a constant percentage. Now in semiconductor way for manufacturing that cost is roughly around 22% declines. And when you consider the economics of manufacturing a next generation technology, for example going from ten nanometers to seven nanometers this becomes huge. Because the cost of making seven nanometer tech for example is much higher relative to 10 nanometers. But if you can fit more circuits on a chip your wafer costs can drop by 30% or even more. Now this learning curve benefit is why volume is so important. If the time it takes to double volume is elongated then the learning curve benefit they get elongated as well and it become less competitive from a cost standpoint. And that's exactly what is happening to Intel. You see x86 PC volumes, they peaked in 2011 and that marked the beginning of the end of Intel's dominance from manufacturing and cost standpoint. You know, ironically HDD hard disk drive volumes peaked around the same time and you're seeing a similar fundamental shift in that market relative to flash. Now because Intel has a vertically integrated model it's designers are limited by the constraints in the manufacturing process. What used to be Intel's ace in the hole its process manufacturing has become a hindrance, frustrating Intel's chip designers and really seeding advantage to a number of competitors including AMD, ARM and Nvidia. Now, during this time we've seen high profile innovators adapting alternative processors companies like Apple which chose its own design based on ARM for the M1. Tesla is a fascinating case study where Intel was really not in the running. AWS probably Intel's largest customer is developing its own chips. You know through Intel, a little bone at the recent reinvent it announced its use of Intel's Habana chips in a practically the same sentence that talked about how it was developing a similar chip that would provide even better price performance. And just last month it was reported that Microsoft Intel's monopoly partner in the PC era was developing its own ARM-based chips for the surface PCs and for its servers. Intel's Zenith was marked by those peak PC volumes that we talked about. Now to stress this point this chart shows x86 PC volumes over time. That red highlighted area shows the peak years. Now, volumes actually grew in 2020 in part due to COVID which is not really reflected in this chart but the volume game was lost for Intel. When it has been widely reported that in 2005 Steve Jobs approached Intel as it was replacing IBM microprocessors with with Intel processors for the Mac and asked Intel to develop the chip for the iPhone Intel passed and the die was cast. Now to the earlier point, PC markets are actually quite good if you're Dell. Here's some ETR data that shows Dell's laptop net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum for 2020 and into 2021. Dell's client business has been very good and profitable and frankly, it's been a pleasant surprise. You know, PCs they're doing well. And as you can see in this chart, Dell has momentum. There's approximately 275 million maybe as high as 300 million PC units shipped worldwide in 2020, you know up double digits by some estimates. However, ARM chip units shipped exceeded 20 billion units last year worldwide. And it's not apples to apples. You know, we're comparing x86 based PCs to ARM chips. So this excludes x86 servers, but the way for volume for ARM dwarfs that of x86 probably by a factor of 10 times. Back to Wright's law, how long is it going to take Intel to double wafer volumes? It's not going to happen. And trust me, Pat Gelsinger understands this dynamic probably better than anyone in the world and certainly better than I do. And as you look out to the future, the story for Intel and it's vertically integrated approach it's even tougher. This chart shows Wikibon's 2020 forecast for ARM based compared to x86 based PCs. It also includes some other devices but as you can see what happens by the end of the decade is ARM really starts to eat in to x86. As we've seen with the M1 at Apple, ARM is competing in PCs in much better position for these emerging devices that support things like video and virtual reality systems. And we think even will start to eat into the enterprise. So again, the volume game is over for Intel, period. They're never going to win it back. Well, you might ask what about revenue? Intel still dominates in the data center right? Well, yes. And that is much higher revenue per unit but we still believe that revenue from ARM-based systems are going to surpass that of x86 by the end of the decade. Arm compute revenue is shown in the orange area in this chart with x86 in the blue. This means to us that Intel's last mot is going to be its position in the data center. It has to protect that at all costs. Now the market knows this. It knows something's wrong with Intel. And you can see that is reflected in the valuations of semiconductor companies. This chart compares the trailing 12 month revenue in the market valuations for Intel, Nvidia, AMD and Qualcomm. And you can see at a trailing 12 month multiple revenue with 3 X compared to about 22 X for Nvidia about 10 X for AMT and Qualcomm, Intel is lagging behind in the street's view. And Intel, as you can see here, it's now considered a cheap stock by many, you know. Here's a graph that shows the performance over the past 12 months compared to the NASDAQ which you can see that major divergence. NASDAQ has been powered part by COVID and all the new tech and the work from home. The stock reacted very well to the appointment of Gelsinger. That's no surprise. The question people are asking is what's next for Intel? How will Pat turn the company's fortunes around? How long is it going to take? What moves can he and should he make? How will they be received by the market? And internally, very importantly, within Intel's culture. These are big chewy questions and people are split on what should be done. I've heard everything from Pat should just clean up the execution issues. It's no.. This is, you know, very workable and not make any major strategic moves all the way to Intel should do a hybrid outsourced model to Intel should aggressively move out of manufacturing. Let me read some things from Barron's and some other media. Intel has fallen behind rivals and the rest of tech Intel is replacing Bob Swan. Investors are cheering the move. Intel would likely turn to Taiwan semiconductor for chips. Here's who benefits most. So let's take a look at some of the opinions that are inside these articles. So, first one I'm going to pull out Intel has indicated a willingness to try new things and investors expect the company to announce a hybrid manufacturing approach in January. Now, if you take a look at that and you quote a CEO Swan, he says, what has changed is that we have much more flexibility in our designs. And with that type of design we have the ability to move things in and move things out. And that gives us a little more flexibility about what we will make and what we might take from the outside. So let's unpack that a little bit. The new Intel, we know is a highly vertically integrated workflow from design to manufacturing production. But to me, the designers are the artists and the flexibility you would think would come from outsourcing manufacturer to give designers more flexibility to take advantage of say seven nanometer or five nanometer process technologies versus having to wait for Intel to catch up. It used to be that Intel's process was the industry's best and it could supercharge a design or even mask certain design challenges so that Intel could maintain its edge but that's no longer the case. Here's a sentiment from an analyst, Daniel Donnelly. Donnelly is at Citi. It says he's confident. Donnelly is confident that Intel's decision to outsource more of its production won't result in the company divesting its entire manufacturing segment. And he cited three reasons. One, it would take roughly three years to bring a chip to market. And two, Intel would have to share IP. And three, it would hurt Intel's profit margins. He said it would negatively impact gross margins by 10 points and would cause a 25% decline in EPS. Now I don't know about this. I would... To that I would say one, Intel needs to reduce its current cycle time, to go from design to production from let's say three to four years where it is today. It's got to get it under you know, at least at two years maybe even less. Second, I would say is what good is intellectual property if it's not helping you win in the market? And three, I think profitability is nuance. So here's another take from a UBS analyst. His name is Timothy Arcuri. And he says, quote, We see but no option but for Intel to aggressively pursue an outsourcing strategy. He wrote that Intel could be 80% outsourced by 2026. And just by going to 50% outsourcing, he said would save the company $4 billion annually in CapEx and 25% would drop to free cashflow. So look, maybe Gelsinger has to sacrifice some gross margin in EPS for the time being. Reduce the cost of goods sold by outsourcing manufacturing lower its CapEx and fund innovation in design with free cash flow. Here's our take, Pat Gelsinger needs to look in the mirror and ask what would Andy Grove do? You know, Grove's quote that only the paranoid survive its famous less well-known are the words that proceeded that quote. Success breeds complacency and complacency breeds failure. Intel in our view is headed on a path to a long drawn out failure if it doesn't act aggressively. It simply can't compete on cost as an integrated manufacturer because it doesn't have the volume. So what will Pat Gelsinger do? You know, we've probably done 30 Cube interviews with Pat and I just don't think he's taking the job to make some incremental changes to Intel to get the stock price back up. Why would that excite Pat Gelsinger? Trends, markets, people, society, he's a dot connector and he loves Intel deeply. And he's a legend at the company. Here's what we strongly believe. We think Intel has to do a deal with TSM or maybe Samsung perhaps some kind of joint venture or other innovative structure that both protects its IP and secures its future. You know, both of these manufacturers would love to have a stronger US presence. In markets where Intel has many manufacturing facilities they may even be willing to take a loss to get this started and deeply partner with Intel for some period of time This would allow Intel to better compete on a cost basis with AMD. It would protect its core data center revenue and allow it to fight the fight in PCs with better cost structures. Maybe even gain some share that could count for, you know another $10 billion to the top line. Intel should focus on reducing its cycle times and unleashing its designers to create new solutions. Let a manufacturing partner who has the learning curve advantages enable Intel designers to innovate and extend ecosystems into new markets. Autonomous vehicles, factory floor use cases, military security, distributed cloud the coming telco explosion with 5G, AI inferencing at the edge. Bite the bullet, give up on yesterday's playbook and reinvent Intel for the next 50 years. That's what we'd like to see. And that's what we think Gelsinger will conclude when he channels his mentor. What do you think? Please comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can DM me at dvellante or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes remember are also available as podcasts for your listening pleasure. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. Many thanks to my friend and colleague David Floyer who contributed to this episode and that has done great work in the last better part of the last decade and has really thought through some of the cost factors that we talked about today. Also don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action. Thanks for watching this episode of the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> TheCUBE presents Ignite 22 brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, everyone. We're glad you're with us. This is theCUBE live at Palo Alto Ignite 22 at the MGM Grant in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante, day one of our coverage. We've had great conversations. The cybersecurity landscape is so interesting Dave, it's such a challenging problem to solve but it's so diverse and dynamic at the same time. >> You know, Lisa theCUBE started in May of 2010 in Boston. We called it the chowder event, chowder and Lobster. It was a EMC world, 2010. BJ Jenkins, who's here, of course, was a longtime friend of theCUBE and made the, made the transition into from, well, it's still data, data to, to cyber. So >> True. And BJ is back with us. BJ Jenkins, president Palo Alto Networks great to have you back on theCUBE. >> It is great to be here in person on theCube >> Isn't it great? >> In Vegas. It's awesome. >> And we can tell by your voice will be, will be gentle. You, you've been in Vegas typical Vegas occupational hazard of losing the voice. >> Yeah. It was one of the benefits of Covid. I didn't lose my voice at home sitting talking to a TV. You lose it when you come to Vegas. >> Exactly. >> But it's a small price to pay. >> So things kick off yesterday with the partner summit. You had a keynote then, you had a customer, a CISO on stage. You had a keynote today, which we didn't get to see. But talk to us a little bit about the lay of the land. What are you hearing from CISOs, from CIOs as we know security is a board level conversation. >> Yeah, I, you know it's been an interesting three or four months here. Let me start with that. I think, cybersecurity in general is still front and center on CIOs and CISO's minds. It has to be, if you saw Wendy's presentation today and the threats out there companies have to have it front and center. I do think it's been interesting though with the macro uncertainty. We've taken to calling this year the revenge of the CFO and you know these deals in cybersecurity are still a top priority but they're getting finance and procurements, scrutiny which I think in this environment is a necessity but it's still a, you know, number one number two imperative no matter who you talked to, in my mind >> It was interesting what Nikesh was saying in the last conference call that, hey we just have to get more approvals. We know this. We're, we're bringing more go-to-market people on board. We, we have, we're filling the pipeline 'cause we know they're going to split up deals big deals go into smaller chunks. So the question I have for you is is how are you able to successfully integrate those people so that you can get ahead of that sort of macro transition? >> Yeah I, you know, I think there's two things I'd say about uncertain macro situations and Dave, you know how old I am. I'm pretty old. I've been through a lot of cycles. And in those cycles I've always found stronger companies with stronger value proposition separate themselves actually in uncertain, economic times. And so I think there's actually an opportunity here. The message tilts a little bit though where it's been about innovation and new threat vectors to one of you have 20, 30, 40 vendors you can consolidate become more effective in your security posture and save money on your TCOs. So one of the things as we bring people on board it's training them on that business value proposition. How do you take a customer who's got 20 or 30 tools take 'em down to 5 or 10 where Palo is more central and strategic and be able to demonstrate that value. So we do that through, we're making a huge investment in our people but macroeconomic times also puts some stronger people back on the market and we're able to incorporate them into the business. >> What are the conditions that are necessary for that consolidation? Like I would imagine if you're, if you're a big customer of a big, you know, competitor of yours that that migration is going to be harder than if you're dealing with lots of little point tools. Do those, do those point tools, are they sort of is it the end of the subscription? Is it just stuff that's off the books now? What's, the condition that is ripe for that kind of consolidation? >> Look, I think the challenge coming into this year was skills. And so customers had all of these point products. It required a lot more human intervention as Nikesh was talking about to integrate them or make them work. And as all of us know finding people with cybersecurity skills over the last 12 months has been incredibly hard. That drove, if you know, if you think about that a CIO and a CISO sitting there going, I have all all this investment in tools. I don't have the people to operate 'em. What do I need to do? What we tried to do is elevate that conversation because in a customer, everybody who's bought one of those, they they bought it to solve a problem. And there's people with affinity for that tool. They're not just going to say I want to get consolidated and give up my tool. They're going to wrap their arms around it. And so what we needed to do and this changed our ecosystem strategy too how we leverage partners. We needed to get into the CIO and CISO and say look at this chaos you have here and the challenges around people that it's, it's presenting you. We can help solve that by, by standardizing, consolidating taking that integration away from you as Nikesh talked about, and making it easier for your your high skill people to work on high skill, you know high challenges in there. >> Let chaos reign, and then reign in the chaos. >> Yes. >> Andy Grove. >> I was looking at some stats that there's 26 million developers but less than 3 million cybersecurity professionals. >> Talked about that skills gap and what CISOs and CIOs are facing is do you consider from a value prop perspective Palo Alto Networks to be a, a facilitator of helping organizations deal with that skills gap? >> I think there's a short term and a long term. I think Nikesh today talked about the long term that we'll never win this battle with human beings. We're going to have to win it with automation. That, that's the long term the short term right here and now is that people need people with cybersecurity skills. Now what we're trying to do, you know, is multifaceted. We work with universities to standardize programs to develop skills that people can come into the marketplace with. We run our own programs inside the company. We have a cloud academy program now where we take people high aptitude for sales and technical aptitude and we will put them through a six month boot camp on cloud and they'll come out of that ready to really work with the leading experts in cloud security. The third angle is partners, right, there are partners in the marketplace who want to drive their business into high services areas. They have people, they know how to train. We give them, we partner with them to give them training. Hopefully that helps solve some of the short-term gaps that are out there today. >> So you made the jump from data storage to security and >> Yeah. >> You know, network security, all kinds of security. What was that like? What you must have learned a lot in the last better part of a decade? >> Yeah. >> Take us through that. >> You know, so the first jump was from EMC. I was 15 years there to be CEO of Barracuda. And you know, it was interesting because EMC was, you know large enterprise for the most part. At Barracuda we had, you know 250,000 small and mid-size enterprises. And it was, it's interesting to get into security in small and mid-size businesses because, you know Wendy today was talking about nation states. For small and mid-size business, it's common thievery right? It's ransomware, it's, and, those customers don't have, you know, the human and financial resources to keep up with the threat factor. So, you know, Nikesh talked about how it's taken 'em four and a half years to get into cybersecurity. I remember my first week at Barracuda, I was talking with a customer who had, you know, breached data shut down. There wasn't much bitcoin back then so it was just a pure ransom. And I'm like, wow, this is, you know, incredible industry. So it's been a good, you know, transition for me. I still think data is at the heart of all of this. Right? And I have always believed there's a strong connection between the things I learned growing up at EMC and what I put into practice today at Palo Alto Networks. >> And how about a culture because I, you know I know have observed the EMC culture >> Yeah. >> And you were there in really the heyday. >> Yeah. >> Right? Which was an awesome place. And it seems like Palo Alto obviously, different times but you know, similar like laser focus on solving problems, you know, obviously great, you know value sellers, you know, you guys aren't the commodity >> Yeah. For Product. But there seemed to be some similarities from afar. I don't know Palo Alto as well as I know EMC. >> I think there's a lot. When I joined EMC, it was about, it was 2 billion in in revenue and I think when I left it was over 20, 20, 21. And, you know, we're at, you know hopefully 5, 5 5 in revenue. I feel like it's this very similar, there's a sense of urgency, there's an incredible focus on the customer. you know, Near and Moche are definitely different individuals but the both same kind of disruptive, Israeli force out there driving the business. There are a lot of similarities. I, you know, the passion, I feel privileged as a, you know go to market person that I have this incredible portfolio to go, you know, work with customers on. It's a lucky position to be in, but very I feel like it is a movie I've seen before. >> Yeah. And but, and the course, the challenges from the, the target that you're disrupting is different. It was, you know, EMC had a lot of big, you know IBM obviously was, you know, bigger target whereas you got thousands of, you know, smaller companies. >> Yes. >> And, and so that's a different dynamic but that's why the consolidation play is so important. >> Look at, that's why I joined Palo Alto Networks when I was at Barracuda for nine years. It just fascinated me, that there was 3000 plus players in security and why didn't security evolve like the storage market did or the server market or network where working >> Yeah, right. >> You know, two or three big gorillas came to, to dominate those markets. And it's, I think it's what Nikesh talked about today. There was a new problem in best of breed. It was always best of breed. You can never in security go in and, you know, say, Hey it's good I saved us some money but I got the third best product in the marketplace. And there was that kind of gap between products. I, believe in why I joined here I think this is my last gig is we have a chance to change that. And this is the first company as I look from the outside in that had best of breed as, you know Nikesh said 13 categories. >> Yeah. >> And you know, we're in the leaders quadrant and it's a conversation I have with customers. You don't have to sacrifice best of breed but get the benefits of a platform. And I, think that resonates today. I think we have a chance to change the industry from that viewpoint. >> Give us a little view of the voice of the customer. You had, was it Sabre? >> Yeah. >> That was on >> Scott Moser, The CISO from Sabre. >> Give us a view, what are you hearing from the voice of the customer? Obviously they're quite a successful customer but challenges, concerns, the partnership. >> Yeah. Look, I think security is similar to industries where we come up with magic marketing phrases and, you know, things to you know, make you want to procure our solutions. You know, zero trust is one. And you know, you'll talk to customers and they're like, okay, yes. And you know, the government, right? Joe, Joe Biden's putting out zero trust executive orders. And the, the problem is if you talk to customers, it's a journey. They have legacy infrastructure they have business drivers that you know they just don't deal with us. They've got to deal with the business side who's trying to make the money that keeps the, the company going. it's really helped them draw a map from where they're at today to zero trust or to a better security architecture. Or, you know, they're moving their apps into the cloud. How am I going to migrate? Right? Again, that discussion three years ago was around lift and shift, right? Today it's about, well, no I need cloud native developed apps to service the business the way I want to, I want to service it. How do I, so I, I think there's this element of a trusted partner and relationship. And again, I think this is why you can't have 40 or 50 of those. You got to start narrowing it down if you want to be able to meet and beat the threats that are out there for you. So I, you know, the customers, I see a lot of 'em. It's, here's where I'm at help me get here to a better position. And they know it's, you know Scott said in our keynote today, you don't just, you know have layer three firewall policies and decide, okay tomorrow I'm going to go to layer seven. That, that's not how it works. Right? There's, and, and by the way these things are a mission critical type areas. So there's got to be a game plan that you help customers go through to get there. >> Definitely. Last question, my last question for you is, is security being a board level conversation I was reading some stats from a survey I think it was the what's new in Cypress survey that that Palo Alto released today that showed that while significant numbers of organizations think they've got a cyber resiliency playbook, there's a lot of disconnect or lack of alignment at the boardroom. Are you in those conversations? How can you help facilitate that alignment between the executive team and the board when it comes to security being so foundational to any business? >> Yeah, it's, I've been on three, four public company boards. I'm on, I'm on two today. I would say four years ago, this was a almost a taboo topic. It was a, put your head in the sand and pray to God nothing happened. And you know, the world has changed significantly. And because of the number of breaches the impact it's had on brand, boards have to think about this in duty of care and their fiduciary duty. Okay. So then you start with a board that may not have the technical skills. The first problem the security industry had is how do I explain your risk profile in a way you can understand it. I'm, I'm on the board of Generac that makes home generators. It's a manufacturing, you know, company but they put Wifi modules in their boxes so that the dealers could help do the maintenance on 'em. And all of a sudden these things were getting attacked. Right? And they're being used for bot attacks. >> Yeah. >> Everybody on their board had a manufacturing background. >> Ah. >> So how do you help that board understand the risk they have that's what's changed over the last four years. It's a constant discussion. It's one I have with CISOs where they're like help us put it in layman's terms so they understand they know what we're doing and they feel confident but at the same time understand the marketplace better. And that's a journey for us. >> That Generac example is a great one because, you know, think about IOT Technologies. They've historically been air gaped >> Yes. >> By design. And all of a sudden the business comes in and says, "Hey we can put wifi in there", you know >> Connect it to a home Wifi system that >> Make our lives so much easier. Next thing you know, it's being used to attack. >> Yeah. >> So that's why, as you go around the world are you discerning, I know you were just in Japan are you discerning significant differences in sort of attitudes toward, towards cyber? Whether it's public policy, you know things like regulation where you, they don't want you sharing data, but as as a cyber company, you want to share that data with you know, public and private? >> Look it, I, I think around the world we see incredible government activity first of all. And I think given the position we're in we get to have some unique conversations there. I would say worldwide security is an imperative. I, no matter where I go, you know it's in front of everybody's mind. The, on the, the governance side, it's really what do we need to adapt to make sure we meet local regulations. And I, and I would just tell you Dave there's ways when you do that, and we talk with governments that because of how they want to do it reduce our ability to give them full insight into all the threats and how we can help them. And I do think over time governments understand that we can anonymize the data. There's, but that, that's a work in process. Definitely there is a balance. We need to have privacy, we need to have, you know personal security for people. But there's ways to collect that data in an anonymous way and give better security insight back into the architectures that are out there. >> All right. A little shift the gears here. A little sports question. We've had some great Boston's sports guests on theCUBE right? I mean, Randy Seidel, we were talking about him. Peter McKay, Snyk, I guess he's a competitor now but you know, there's no question got >> He got a little funding today. I saw that. >> Down round. But they still got a lot of money. Not of a down round, but they were, but yeah, but actually, you know, he was on several years ago and it was around the time they were talking about trading Brady. He said Never trade Brady. And he got that right. We, I think we can agree Brady's the goat. >> Yes. >> The big question I have for you is, Belichick. Do you ever question Has your belief in him as the greatest coach of all time wavered, you know, now that- No. Okay. >> Never. >> Weigh in on that. >> Never, he says >> Still the Goat. >> I'll give you my best. You know, never In Bill we trust. >> Okay. Still. >> All right >> I, you know, the NFL is a unique property that's designed for parody and is designed, I mean actively designed to not let Mr. Craft and Bill Belichick do what they do every year. I feel privileged as a Boston sports fan that in our worst years we're in the seventh playoff spot. And I have a lot of family in Chicago who would kill for that position, by the way. And you know, they're in perpetual rebuilding. And so look, and I think he, you know the way he's been able to manage the cap and the skill levels, I think we have a top five defense. There's different ways to win titles. And if I, you know, remember in Brady's last title with Boston, the defense won us that Super Bowl. >> Well thanks for weighing in on that because there's a lot of crazy talk going on. Like, 'Hey, if he doesn't beat Arizona, he's got to go.' I'm like, what? So, okay, I'm sometimes it takes a good good loyal fan who's maybe, you know, has >> The good news in Boston is we're emotional fans too so I understand you got to keep the long term long term in mind. And we're, we're in a privileged position in Boston. We've got Celtics, we've got Bruins we've got the Patriots right on the edge of the playoffs and we need the Red Sox to get to work. >> Yeah, no, you know they were last, last year so maybe they're going to win it all like they usually do. So >> Fingers crossed. >> Crazy worst to first. >> Exactly. Well you said, in Bill we trust it sounds like from our conversation in BJ we trust from the customers, the partners. >> I hope so. >> Thank you so much BJ, for coming back on theCUBE giving us the lay of the land, what's new, the voice of the customer and how Palo Alto was really differentiated in the market. We always appreciate your, coming on the show you >> Honor and privilege seeing you here. Thanks. >> You may be thinking that you were watching ESPN just now but you know, we call ourselves the ESPN at Tech News. This is Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante and our guest. You're watching theCUBE, the Leader and live emerging in enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Ansible Fest 2022. We are live in Chicago. This is day two of Waldo Wall coverage on the cube. John Fhrer here with me. Lisa Martin. John, today's a big news day. Yeah, >>Big time. I mean, we got the chief architect on this segments to be great. We have the lead product management. All the new stuff coming out really is a game changer. It's very cool and relevant. Very key to be relevant. And then, and being a part of the future. This is a changeover you see in the NextGen Cloud developer environment. Open source all coming together. So Ansible we've been covering for many, many years. We've always said they're in the middle of all the action and you're starting to see the picture. Yes. For me. So we're looking forward to a great segment. >>Yes. We've got two alumni back with us to unpack the news and all the great stuff that's going on here. Richard Hensel joins us Senior manager, Ansible Product Management, and Matthew Jones here, fresh from the keynote stage, Chief architect of Ansible Automation. Guys, great to have you on the program. Thanks >>For having us. Good to be here. >>So this morning was all about event driven Ansible. Unpack that. Talk about the impact that this is gonna have, The excitement, the buzz that you've heard on the show floor today. >>Yeah. You know, it's, it's exciting. We've been working on this for a while. We've been really excited to show this off because it's something that feels like the natural evolution of the platform and where it's going. Really being able to connect the automation with the sources of data and the actions that we know people want to use. We, we came into this knowing everybody here at this conference, this is something that everybody will be able to use. >>Talk about the innovations strategy. Cause we've always had these great conversations with Ansible. Oh yeah. The, the practitioners, they're, they're building the product with you. You guys are very hardcore on that. No secret. This is different. This is like a whole nother level of opportunity that's gonna take the, the community to new heights in terms of what they do in their job and free them up to do more creative development. >>Yeah, you're exactly right. You know, we, we know that people need to bring that sort of reactive and active automation to it. We've, we've done a lot of work to bring automation to everybody, to the masses. Now we need to meet them at the place where they are, where the, the where, where they have to do the most work and, and act in the most strategic and specific ways. >>All right. So now before we get into some of the deep dive, cause a ton of questions. This is really exciting product. Take a minute to explain what was the key announcement? Why, what specifically does this mean for the audience, watching customers and future customers? What's the big deal? To take a minute to explain what was announced. >>So this is about the, the evolution and the maturity of the automation that our users are doing. So, you know, you think about provisioning servers, you know, configuring networks, all that sort of, the stuff that we've established and everybody's been doing for a number of years. And then you go, Well, I've invested in that. I've done the heavy lifting, I've done the things that cost me agility. I think that cost me time. Well now I need to go further. So what can I go further into? And you move further at the stacks. You move away from the infrastructure, please. You move away from infrastructure as code. You move towards through configures code, up to officer's code. And you start to get into, well, I've got, I've got road tasks, I've got repetitive actions that I'm doing. I've got investigations, I've got remediations, I've got responses. >>Well, there's work that I do on a daily basis that is toil. Right. It's not efficient work. Right. Actually, we doing valuable work in the operation space as much as you were doing in, in the build space. And how do we move them up into that space? And it's, this is all based off observation. You can do this today, but how do we make it easier? We've gonna make it easier for them to do that and get, it's all about success. It's about the outcomes we're gonna drive users towards. They need to be successful as quickly as possible. How do we make that >>Happen? And Matt, I remember we talked in 2019 with Ansible, the word platform where we say, Hey, you know, platforms are super important. It's not a tool, tools and platforms as distinctions. You mentioned platform. This is now platform. A lot of people put a lot of work in into this Yeah. Claim what went on behind the scenes. So >>You're exactly right. And we've spent the last couple of years really taking that disparate set of tools that, that we've invested a lot of time in building that platform. It's been exciting to see it come together. We always knew that we wanted to capture more of, more of where people find automation and find they need automation, not just out on the edge, on the end of the, of the, of the actions and tasks that they need to do. They've got a lot of things coming in, a lot of things that they need to take care of. And the community is really what drives this for us. People who have been doing this for years and they've been asking us, Meet me halfway. Give me something. Give me a part of this platform and a capability that enables me to do this. So I I feel like we've done that and you did >>It. Yeah, exactly. For step one. >>And that must feel pretty good too, to be able to deliver what, you know, the masses are looking for and why they're looking >>For it. Yeah. This was, there was no question that we knew this was gonna deliver the kind of real value that people were looking for. >>Take us through the building blocks real quick. I know on stage you went through it in detail. What should people know about the core building blocks of, of this particular event driven >>Piece? Yeah. You know, I think the most important thing to understand at the, at the outset is the sources of data and events that come in. It's really easy to get lost in the details. Like, what do you mean a source? But, you know, we've shown examples using Kafka, but it's not just Kafka, right? It's, it's, it's web hooks, it's CI systems, it's any, any place that you can imagine an evict coming from your monitoring platforms. You can bring those together under the same umbrella. We're not requiring you to pick one or choose or what's your favorite one. You can bring, you can use them all and and condense them down into the, into the same place. >>There's a lot of data events everywhere now. There's more events. Yeah. Is there a standard interface? Is what's the, is there any kind of hook in there? Is what's, what's gonna limit? Or is there any limits? >>I I don't think there is a limit. I, you know, it's, and we can't even imagine where events and data are gonna come from, but we know we need to get them into the system in a way that makes the most sense for the, the customers. And then that, that drives through into the rule books. Like, okay, we have the data now, but what do we do with that data? How do we translate that into, into the action? What are the rules that need to follow? It's giving the, the, the person who is automating, who understands the data that's coming in and understands the task that they need to take. The, the rules are where they map those into it. And then the last part, of course is the playbook, the automation itself, which they already know. They're already experts in the system. So we've, we've, we've built this like eight lane highway. They get some right end of those actions. >>Let's talk about Richard, let's unpack those actions and the really kind of double click on the business outcomes that this is actually gonna enable organizations and any industry to achieve. >>Yeah, so >>I mean, it's, it, like Matt said, it's really hard to encapsulate everything that we see as possible. But if you just think about what happens when a system goes down, right? At that point in time, I'm potentially not making money, right? I'd say it's costing me time, it's costing me, that's a business impact. If I can speed up how quick I can resolve that problem, if I can reduce time in there, that's customer improvement, that's custom satisfaction. That's bottom line money for businesses, right? But it's also, it's also satisfaction for the users. You know, they're not involved in having the stressful get online, get quickly, activate whatever accounts you need to do, go and start doing discovery. You can detect a lot of that information for the discovery use case that we see, respond to an event, scan the system for that same logic that you would normally do as a user, as a human. >>And that's why the rules are important to add into ed. It's like, how do I take that human, that brain part that I would say, well, if I see this bit, oh, I'll go and have a look in this other log file. If I see this piece, I'll go and do something different. How do we translate that into Ansible so that you've got that conditional logic just to be able to say, if this do that, or if I see these three things, it means a certain outcome has happened. And then again, that defined, that's what's gonna help people like choose where it becomes useful. And that's how we, that's how we take that process >>Forward. I'm sure people are gonna get excited by this. I'm not sure the community already knows that, but as it's gonna attract more potential customers, what's different about it? Can you share the differentiation? Like wait minute, I already have that already. Do they have it already? What's different? What makes this different? What's, what's in it for them? >>Yeah. When we step up into a customer situation, an enterprise, an organization, what's really important becomes the, the ability to control where you do some of that work. So the control and the trust, You know, would you trust an automatic system to go and start making changes to hundreds of thousands of devices? And the answer is often not, not straight away. So how do we put this sort of sep the same separation of duties we have between dev and ops and all the nice structures we've done over the last number of years, and actually apply that to that programmatic access of automation that other systems do. So let's say a AIML systems that are detecting what's going on, observability platforms are, are much more intru or intrusive is the wrong word. They're much more observable of what's going on in the systems, right? But at the same time you go, I wanna make sure that I know that any point in time I can decide what, what is there and what can be run and who can run it and when they can run it. And that becomes an important dimension. >>The versatility seems like a big deal too. They can, Yeah. Any team could get >>Involved. And, and that's the, the same flexibility and the same extensibility of Ansible exists in this use case, right? The, the, the ability to take any of those tasks you wanna do in action, string them together, but what the way that it works for you, not the way that it works that we see, but the way that you see and you convert your operational DNA into how you do that automation and how that gets triggered as you see fit. >>Talk about this both of you. I'd like to get your perspectives on event driven Ansible as part of the automation journey that businesses are on. Obviously you can look at different industries and different businesses are, are at different places along that journey, but where does this fit in and kind of plugin to accelerating that journey? That's, >>That's a good question. You know, sometimes this ends up being like that last mile of we've adopted this automation, we've learned how to write automation. We even understand the things that we would need to automate, but how do we carry it over that last topic and connect it to our, our knowledge systems, our data stores, our data lakes, and how do we combine the expertise of the systems that we're managing with this automation that we've learned? Like you, you mentioned the, the, the community and the, the coalescing of data and information, the, the definition of the event rules and, and the event driven architecture. It lives alongside the automation that you've developed in the exact same place where you can feel that trust and ubiquity that we keep talking about. Right? It's there, it's certified. And we've talked a lot about secure supply chain recently. This gives you the ability to sign and certify that the rules and actions that we're taking and the sources that we're communicating with works exactly the same way. Yeah. And >>There's something we didn't, we didn't correlate this when we first started doing the work. We were, we were, we observe teams doing self-healing and you know, extending Ansible. And then over the last 18 months, what we've also seen is this movement, this platform engineering movement, the SRE teams becoming much more prominent. And this just nicely sits in as a type of use case for that type of transformation. You know, we've gotta remember that Ansible at is heart is also a transformative tool. Is like, how do you teach this behavior to a bunch of people? How do you upscale a larger base of engineers with what you want to be able to do? And I think this is such an important part that we, we just one say we stumbled into it, but it was a very, very nice, >>It was a natural progression. >>Exactly. >>Yeah. Yeah. Tom, Tom, when we were talking about Tom yesterday, Tom Anderson and he said, You guys bring up the SRE to you guys when you come on the cube. This is exactly a culture shift that we're talking about. I mean, SRE is really his legacy with Google. We all know that. Everyone kind of knows that, but it's become like a job title. Well they kind of, what does that even mean now if you're not Google, it means you're running stuff. DevOps has become a title. Yeah. So what that means is that's a cultural shift, not so much semantics Yeah. On title. This is kind of what you guys are targeting here, enabling people to run platforms, engineer them. Yeah. Like an architect and enable more co composability coding. >>And, and it's, so that's, that distinction is so important because one of the, you know, we see many customers come from different places. Many users from, you know, all the legacy or heritage of tools that have existed. And so often those processes are defined by the way that tool worked. Right? You had no other way that, that, and the, and it's, it happened 10 years ago, somebody implemented it, that's how it now works. And then they come and try and take something new and you go, well, you can't let the tool define your process. Now your culture and your objective has to define the process. So this is really, you know, how do we make sure we match that ability by giving them a flexible tool that let's say, Well what are you trying to achieve? I wanna achieve this outcome. That's the way you can do it. I >>Mean, that's how we match basically means my mind to get your reaction. It means I'm running stuff at scale. Yep. Engineer, I'm engineering and infrastructure at scale to enable, >>I'm responsible for it. And it's, it's my, it's my baby. It's my responsibility to do that. And how do we, how do we allow people to do that better? And you know, it, it's about, it's about freeing people up to focus on things that are really important and transformative. We can be transformative. And we do that by taking away the complexity and making things work fast. >>And that's what people want. People in their daily jobs want to be able to deliver value to the organization. You wanna feel that. But something Richard that you were talking about that struck me a couple minutes ago is, was a venture of an Ansible. There's employee benefits, there's customer benefits, Those two are ex inextricably linked. But I liked how you were talking about what it facilitates for both Yes. And all the way to the customer satisfaction, brand reputation. That's an important Yeah. Element for any brand to >>Consider. And that, I mean, you know, think about what digital transformation was all about. I mean, as we evolve past all these initial terms that come about, you know, we actually start getting to the meat of what these things are. And that is it connecting what you do with actually what is the purpose of what your business is trying to achieve. And you can't, you can't almost put money on that. That's, that's the, that's the holy grail of what you're trying to get to. So how, you know, and again, it just comes back to how do we facilitate, how do we make it easy? If we don't make it easier, we're not doing it right. We've gotta make it easier. >>Right. Well, exciting news. I want to get your guys' reaction and if you don't mind sharing your opinion or your commentary on what's different now with Ansible this year than just a few years ago in terms of the scope of what's out there, what's been built, what you guys are doing for the, for the customer base and the community. What's changed? Obviously the people's roles looked that they're gonna expand and have more, I say more power, you know, more keys to the kingdom, however you wanna look at it. But things have changed. What's changed now from a few years >>Ago. It's, you know, it, it's funny because we've spent a lot of time over the last couple years setting up the capabilities that you're seeing us deliver right now. Right. We, we look back two or three years ago and we knew where we wanted to be. We wanted to build things like eda. We wanted to invest in systems like Project Wisdom and the, the types of content, the cloud journey that, that now we're on and we're enabling for folks. But we had to make some really big changes. And those changes take time and, and take investment. The move into last year, John, we talked about execution environments. Yeah. And separating the control plane from the execution plane. All of that work that we did and the investment into the platform and stability of the platform leads us now into what >>Cap. And that's architectural decision. That's the long game in mind. Exactly. Making things more cohesive, but decoupled, that's an operating system kind of thinking. >>It, it totally is. It's a systems engineering and system architecture thinking. And now we can start building on top of these things like what comes after ed, what does ED allow us to do within the platform? All of the dev tools that we focused on that we haven't spent a lot of time talking about that from the product side. But being, coming in with prescriptive and opinionated dev tools, now we can show you how to build it. We can show you how to use it and connect it to your systems. Where can we go next? I'm really excited. >>Yeah. Your customer base two has also been part of from the beginning and they solve their own problems and they rolled it up, grow with it, and now it's a full on platform. The question I then ask is, okay, you believe it's a platform, which it is, it's enabling. What do you guys see as that possible dots that could connect that might come on top of this from a creativity standpoint, from an ecosystem standpoint, from an Ansible standpoint, from maybe Red Hat. I mean, wisdom shows that you can go into the treasure trove of IBM's research, pull out some AI and some machine learning. Both that in or shim layered in whatever you do. >>I mean, what I'm starting to see much more, especially as I, the nice thing about being here is actually getting face to face with customers again and you know, actually hearing what they're talking about. But you know, we've moved away from a Ansible specific story where I'm talking about how I, I was always, I was looking to automate, I was looking to go to Ansible. Well now I've got the automation capability. Now we've enhanced the automation. Capabil wisdom enhances the automation capability further. What about all those, those broader set of management solutions that I've got that I would like to start connecting to each other. So we're starting to take the same like, you know, you mentioned as then software architecture, software design principles. We'll apply those same application design principles, apply them to your IT management because we've got data center with the pressures on there. We've got the expansion into cloud, we've got the expansion to the edge, right? Each adding a new layer of complexity and a new layer of, you know, more that you have to then look after. But there's still the same >>Number of people. So a thousand flower blooms kind of situation. >>Exactly. And so how do I, how do I constrain, how do I tame it, right? How do I sit there and go, I, I can control that now I can look after that. I contain that. I can, I can deal with what I wanna do. So I'm focusing on what's important and we are getting stuff done. >>We, we've been quoting Andy Grove on the cube lately. Let chaos, rain and then rain in the chaos. Yes. Right? I mean that's kind of every inflection point has complexity before it gets simpler. >>Yeah, that's right. >>Yeah. You can't, there's answer that one. That's >>Perfectly. >>Yeah. Yeah. What do you expect to see chief ar you gotta have the vision. What's gonna pop out? What's that low, low hanging fruit? What's gonna bloom first? What do you think's gonna come? >>I, you know, my overarching vision is that I just want to be able to automate more. Where, where can we bring back, So edge cloud, right? That's obvious, but what things run in the cloud and and on the edge, right? Devices, you heard Chad in the keynote this morning talk about programmable logic controllers, sensors, fans, motors, things like that. This is the, the sort of, this is the next frontier of automation is that connecting your data centers and your systems, your applications and needs all the way out to where your customers are. Gas stations, point of sale systems. >>It's instant. It's instant. It is what it is. It's like just add, Just >>Add faster and bigger. Yeah. >>But what happens if, I'll give you a tease. What I think is, is what happens if this happens? So I've got much more rich feature, rich diverse set of tools looking after my systems, observing what's going on. And they go through a whole filtering process and they say such and such has happened, right? Wisdom picks that up and decides from that natural language statement that comes outta the back of that system. That's the task I think is now appropriate to run. Where do you run that? You need a secure execution capability. Pass that to an support, that single task. And now we run inside the automation platform at any of those locations that you just mentioned, right? Stitching those things together and having that sequence of events all the way through where you, you predefine what's possible. You know, you start to bias the system towards what is your accepted standard and then let those clever systems do what you are investing in them for, which is to run your IT and make it >>Easier. Rich here was on earlier, I said, hey, about voice activated it. Provision the cluster. Yeah. >>Last question guys, before we run out of time for this. For customers who take advantage of this new frontier, how can they get started with the bench of an what's? >>That's a good question. You know, we, we've engaged our community because they trust us and we trust them to build really good products. ansible.com/events. Oh man, >>I did have the, I >>Had the cup, the landing page. >>Find somebody find that. >>Well it's on GitHub, right? GitHub It is. >>Yeah it >>Is. Absolutely ansible.com. It's probably a link somewhere if I on the front page. Exactly. On GitHub. The good code too. >>Right? Exactly. And so look at there, you can see where we're going on our roadmap, what we're capable of today. Examples, we're gonna be doing labs and blogs and demonstrations of it over the next day, week, month. Right. You'll be able to see this evolve. You get to be the, the sort of vanguard of support and actions on this and >>Cause we really want, we really want users to play with it, right? Of course. We've been doing this for a while. We've seen what we think is right. We want users to play with it. Tell us whether the syntax works, whether it makes sense, how does it run, how does it work? That's the exciting part. But at the same time, we want the partners, you know, we, we don't know all the technologies, right? We want the partners that we have that work with us already in the community to go and sort of, you know, do those integrations, do those triggers to their systems, define rules for their stuff cuz they'll talk to their customers about it as >>Well. Right? Right. It'll be exciting to see what unfolds over the next six to nine months or so with the partners getting involved, the community getting involved. Guys, congratulations on the big announcements. Sounds like a lot of work. I can tell. We can tell. Your excitement level is huge and job well done. Thank you so much for joining us on the Cube. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our pleasure. Just All right, for our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live from Chicago, Ansible Fest 22. John and I will be right back with our next guest of Stay tuned.

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase. This is season two, episode four, the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem to talk about cyber security. I'm your host, John feer. And today we're excited to join by a Mediatel Walker, CEO of Quin security and sub IER, vice president of product management of sequence security gentlemen, thanks for joining us today on this showcase. >>Thank you, John PRAs. >>So the title of this session is continuous API protection life cycle to discover, detect, and defend security. APIs are part of it. They're hardened, everyone's using them, but they're they're target for malicious behavior. This is the focus of this segment. You guys are in the leading edge of this. What are the biggest challenges for organizations right now in assessing their security risks? Because you're seeing APIs all over the place in the news, just even this week, Twitter had a whistleblower come out from the security group, talking about their security plans, misleading the FTC on the bots and some of the malicious behavior inside the API interface of Twitter. This is really a mainstream Washington post is reporting on it. New York times, all the global outlets are talking about this story. This is the risk. I mean, yeah, this is what you guys do protect against this. >>Yeah, this is absolutely top of mind for a lot of security folks today. So obviously in the media and the type of attack that that is being discussed with this whistleblower coming out is called reputation bombing. This is not new. This has been going on since I would say at least eight to 10 years where the, the bad actors are using bots or automation and ultimately using APIs on these large social media platforms, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Twitter or some other social media platform and messing with the reputation system of those large platforms. And what I mean by that is they will do fake likes, fake commenting, fake retweeting in the case of Twitter. And what that means is that things that are, should not be very popular, all of a sudden become popular. That that way they're able to influence things like elections, shopping habits, personnel. >>We, we work with similar profile companies and we see this all the time. We, we mostly work on some of the secondary platforms like dating and other sort of social media platforms around music sharing and things like video sharing. And we see this all the time. These, these bots are bad. Actors are using bots, but ultimately it's an API problem. It's not just a bot problem. And that's what we've been trying to sort of preach to the world, which is your bot problem is subset of your API security challenges that you deal as an organization. >>You know, IMIA, we talked about this in the past on a previous conversation, but this really is front and center mainstream for the whole world to see around the challenges. All companies face, every CSO, every CIO, every board member organizations out there looking at this security posture that spans not just information technology, but physical and now social engineering. You have all kinds of new payloads of malicious behavior that are being compromised through, through things like APIs. This is not just about CSO, chief information security officer. This is chief security officer issues. What's your reaction >>Very much so I think the, this is a security problem, but it's also a reputation problem. In some cases, it's a data governance problem. We work with several companies which have very restrictive data governance and data regulations or data residency regulations there to conform to those regulations. And they have to look at that. It's not just a CSO problem anymore. In case of the, the news of the day to day, this is a platform problem. This goes all the way to the, that time CTO of Twitter. And now the CEO of Twitter, who was in charge of dealing with these problems. We see as just to give you an example, we, we work, we work with a similar sort of social media platform that allows Oop based login to their platform that is using tokens. You can sort of sign in with Facebook, sign in with Twitter, sign in with Google. These are API keys that are generated and trusted by these social media platforms. When we saw that Facebook leaked about 50 million of these login credentials or API keys, this was about three, four years ago. I wrote a blog about it. We saw a huge spike in those API keys being used to log to other social media platforms. So although one social platform might be taking care of its, you know, API or what problem, if something else gets reached somewhere else, it has a cascading impact on a variety of platforms. >>You know, that's a really interesting dynamic. And if you think about just the token piece that you mentioned, that's kind of under the coverage, that's a technology challenge, but also you get in the business logic. So let's go back and, and unpack that, okay, they discontinue the tokens. Now they're being reused here. In the case of Twitter, I was talking to an executive here in Silicon valley and they said, yeah, it's a cautionary tale, for sure. Although Twitter's a unique situation, but they abstract out the business value and say, Hey, they had an M and a deal on the table. And so if someone wants to unwind that deal, all I gotta say is, Hey, there's a bot problem. And now you have essentially new kinds of risk in the business have nothing to do with some sign the technology, okay. They got a security breach, but here with Twitter, you have an, an, an M and a deal, an acquisition that's being contested because of the, the APIs. So, so if you're in business, you gotta think to yourself, what am I risking with my API? So every organization should be assessing their security risks, tied to their APIs. This is a huge awakening for them. Where should they start? And that's the, that's the core question. Okay. You got my attention risks with the API. What do I do? >>So when I talked to you in my previous interview, the start is basically knowing what to, in most cases, you see these that are hitting the wire much. Every now there is a major in cases you'll find these APIs are targeted, that are not poorly protected. They're absolutely just not protected at all, which means the security team or any sort of team that is responsible for protecting these APIs are just completely unaware of these APIs being there in the first place. And this is where we talk about the shadow it or shadow API problem. Large enterprises have teams that are geo distributed, and this problem is escalated after the pandemic even more because now you have teams that are completely distributed. They do M and a. So they acquire new companies and have no visibility into their API or security practices. And so there are a lot of driving factors why these APIs are just not protected and, and just unknown even more to the security team. So the first step has to be discover your API attack surface, and then prioritize which APIs you wanna target in terms of runtime protection. >>Yeah. I wanna dig into that API kind of attack surface area management, runtime monitoring capability in a second, but so I wanna get you in here too, because we're talking about APIs, we're talking about attacks. What does an API attack look like? >>Yeah, that's a very good question, John, there are really two different forms of attacks of APIs, one type of attack, exploits, APIs that have known vulnerabilities or some form of vulnerabilities. For instance, APIs that may use a weak form of authentication or are really built with no authentication at all, or have some sort of vulnerability that makes them very good targets for an attacker to target. And the second form of attack is a more subtle one. It's called business logic abuse. It's, it's utilizing APIs in completely legitimate manner manners, but exploiting those APIs to exfiltrate information or key sensitive information that was probably not thought through by the developer or the designers or those APIs. And really when we do API protection, we really need to be able to handle both of those scenarios, protect against abuse of APIs, such as broken authentication, or broken object level authorization APIs with that problem, as well as protecting APIs from business logic abuse. And that's really how we, you know, differentiate against other vendors in this >>Market. So just what are the, those key differentiated ways to identify the, in the malicious intents with APIs? Can you, can you just summarize that real quick, the three ways? >>Sure. Yeah, absolutely. There are three key ways that we differentiate against our competition. One is in the, we have built out a, in the ability to actually detect such traffic. We have built out a very sophisticated threat intelligence network built over the entire lifetime of the company where we have very well curated information about malicious infrastructures, malicious operators around the world, including not just it address ranges, but also which infrastructures do they operate on and stuff like that, which actually helps a lot in, in many environments in especially B2C environments, that alone accounts for a lot of efficacy for us in detecting our weed out bad traffic. The second aspect is in analyzing the request that are coming in the API traffic that is coming in and from the request itself, being able to tell if there is credential abuse going on or credential stuffing going on or known patterns that the traffic is exhibiting, that looks like it is clearly trying to attack the attack, the APM. >>And the third one is, is really more sophisticated as they go farther and farther. It gets more sophisticated where sequence actually has a lot of machine learning models built in which actually profile the traffic that is coming in and separate. So the legitimate or learns the legitimate traffic from the anomalous or suspicious traffic. So as the traffic, as the API requests are coming in, it automatically can tell that this traffic does not look like legitimate traffic does not look like the traffic that this API typically gets and automatically uses that to figure out, okay, where is this traffic coming from? And automatically takes action to prevent that attack? >>You know, it's interesting APIs have been part of the goodness of cloud and cloud scale. And it reminds me of the old Andy Grove quote, founder of, in one of the founders of Intel, you know, let chaos, let, let the chaos happen, then reign it in it's APIs. You know, a lot of people have been creating them and you've got a lot of different stakeholders involved in creating them. And so now securing them and now manage them. So a lot of creation now you're starting to secure them and now you gotta manage 'em. This all is now big focus. As you pointed out, what are some of the dynamics that customers who have to deal with on the product side and, and organization, let, let chaos rain, and then rain in the chaos, as, as the saying goes, what, what do companies do? >>Yeah. Typically companies start off with like, like a mayor talked about earlier. Discovery is really the key thing to start with, like figuring out what your API attack surfaces and really getting your arms around that problem. And typically we are finding customers start that off from the security organization, the CSO organization to really go after that problem. And in some cases, in some customers, we even find like dedicated centers of excellence that are created for API security, which go after that problem to be able to get their arms around the whole API attack surface and the API protection problem statement. So that's where usually that problem starts to get addressed. >>I mean, organizations and your customers have to stop the attacks. A lot of different techniques, you know, run time. You mentioned that earlier, the surface area monitoring, what's the choice. What's the, where are, where are, where is everybody? Is everyone in the, in the boiling water, like the frog and boiling water or they do, they know it's happening? Like what did they do? What's their opportunity to get in >>Position? Yeah. So I, I think let's take a step back a little bit, right? What has happened is if you draw the cloud security market, if you will, right. Which is the journey to the cloud, the security of these applications or APIs at a container level, in terms of vulnerabilities and, and other things that market grew with the journey to the cloud, pretty much locked in lockstep. What has happened in the API side is the API space has kind of lacked behind the growth and explosion in the API space. So what that means is APIs are getting published way faster than the security teams are able to sort of control and secure them. APIs are getting published in environments that the security completely unaware of. We talked about in the past about the parameter, the parameter, as we know, it doesn't exist anymore. It used to be the case that you hit a CDN, you terminate your SSL, you stop your layer three and four DDoS. >>And then you go into the application and do the business logic. That parameter is just gone because it's now could be living in multi-cloud environment. It could be living in the on-prem environment, which is PubNet is friendly. And so security teams that are used to protecting apps, using a perimeter defense plus changes, it's gone. You need to figure out where your perimeter is. And therefore we sort of recommend an approach, which is have a uniform view across all your APIs, wherever they could be distributed and have a single point of control across those with a solution like sequence. And there are others also in this space, which is giving you that uniform view, which is first giving you that, you know, outside and looking view of what APIs to protect. And then let's, you sort of take the journey of securing the API life cycle. >>So I would say that every company now hear me out on this indulges me for a second. Every company in the world will be non perimeter based, except for maybe 5% because of maybe unique reason, proprietary lockdown, information, whatever. But for most, most companies, everyone will be in the cloud or some cloud native, non perimeter based security posture. So the question is, how does your platform fit into that trajectory? And specifically, why are you guys in the position in your mind to help customers solve this API problem? Because again, APIs have been the greatest thing about the cloud, right? Yeah. So the goodness is there because of APS. Now you gotta reign it in reign in the chaos. Yeah. What, what about your platform share? What is it, why is it win? Why should customers care about this? >>Absolutely. So if you think about it, you're right, the parameter doesn't exist. People have APIs deployed in multiple environments, multicloud hybrid, you name it sequence is uniquely positioned in a way that we can work with your environment. No matter what that environment is. We're the only player in this space that can protect your APIs purely as a SA solution or purely as an on-prem deployment. And that could be a SaaS platform. It doesn't need to be RackN, but we also support that and we could be a hybrid deployment. We have some deployments which are on your prem and the rest of this solution is in our SA. If you think about it, customers have secured their APIs with sequence with 15 minutes, you know, going live from zero to life and getting that protection instantaneously. We have customers that are processing a billion API calls per day, across variety of different cloud environments in sort of six different brands. And so that scale, that flexibility of where we can plug into your infrastructure or be completely off of your infrastructure is something unique to sequence that we offer that nobody else is offering >>Today. Okay. So I'll be, I'll be a naysayer. Yeah, look, it, we are perfectly coded APIs. We are the best in the business. We're locked down. Our APIs are as tight as a drum. Why do I need you? >>So that goes back to who's answer. Of course, >>Everyone's say that that's, that's great, but that's my argument. >>There are two types of API attacks. One is a tactic problem, which is exploiting a vulnerability in an API, right? So what you're saying is my APIs are secure. It does not have any vulnerability I've taken care of all vulnerabilities. The second type of attack that targets APIs is the business logic. Use this stuff in the news this week, which is the whistleblower problem, which is, if you think APIs that Twitter is publishing for users are perfectly secure. They are taking care of all the vulnerabilities and patching them when they find new ones. But it's the business logic of, you know, REWE liking or commenting that the bots are targeting, which they have no against. Right. And then none of the other social networks too. Yeah. So there are many examples. Uber wrote a program to impersonate users in different geo locations to find lifts, pricing, and driver information and passenger information, completely legitimate use of APIs for illegitimate, illegitimate purpose using bots. So you don't need bots by the way, don't, don't make this about bot versus not. Yeah. You can use APIs sort of for the, the purpose that they're not designed for sort of exploiting their business logic, either using a human interacting, a human farm, interacting with those APIs or a bot form targeting those APIs, I think. But that's the problem when you have, even when you've secured all your problem, all your APIs, you still have to worry about these of challenges. >>I think that's the big one. I think the business logic one, certainly the Twitter highlights that the Uber example is a good one. That is basically almost the, the backlash of having a simplistic API, which people design to. Right. Yeah. You know, as you point out, Twitter is very simple API, hardened, very strong security, but they're using it to maliciously manipulate what's inside. So in a way that perimeter's dead too. Right. So how do you stop that business logic? What's the, what's the solution what's the customer do about that? Because their goal is to create simple, scalable APIs. >>Yeah. I'll, I'll give you a little bit, and then I think Subaru should maybe go into a little bit of the depth of the problem, but what I think that the answer lies in what Subaru spoke earlier, which is our ML. AI is, is good at profiling plus split between the API users, are these legitimate users, humans versus bots. That's the first split we do. The split second split we do is even when these, these are classified users as bots, we will say there are some good bots that are necessary for the business and bad bots. So we are able to split this across three types of users, legitimate humans, good bots and bad bots. And just to give you an example of good bots is there are in the financial work, there are aggregators that are scraping your data and aggregating for end users to consume, right? Your, your, and other type of financial aggregators FinTech companies like MX. These are good bots and you wanna allow them to, you know, use your APIs, whereas you wanna stop the bad bots from using your APIs super, if you wanna add so, >>So good bots versus bad bots, that's the focus. Go ahead. Weigh in, weigh in on your thought on this >>Really breaks down into three key areas that we talk about here, sequence, right? One is you start by discovering all your APIs. How many APIs do I have in my environment that ly immediately highlight and say, Hey, you have, you know, 10,000 APIs. And that usually is an eye opener to many customers where they go, wow. I thought we had a 10th of that number. That usually is an eyeopener for them to, to at least know where they're at. The second thing is to tell them detection information. So discover, detect, and defend detect will tell them, Hey, your APIs are getting traffic from. So and so it addresses so and so infrastructure. So and so countries and so on that usually is another eye opener for them. They then get to see where their API traffic is coming from. Let's say, if you are a, if you're running a pizza delivery service out of California and your traffic is coming from Eastern Europe to go, wait a minute, nobody's trying, I'm not, I'm not, I don't deliver pizzas in Eastern Europe. Why am I getting traffic from that part of the world? So that sort of traffic immediately comes up and it will tell you that it is hitting your unauthenticated API. It is hitting your API. That has, that is vulnerable to a broken object level, that authorization, vulnerable be and so on. >>Yeah, I think, and >>Then comes the different aspect. Yeah. The different aspect is where you can take action and say, I wanna block certain types of traffic, or I wanna rate limit certain types of traffic. If, if you're seeing spikes there or you could maybe insert header so that it passes on to the end application and the application team can use that bit to essentially take a, a conscious response. And so, so the platform is very flexible in allowing them to take an action that suits their needs. >>Yeah. And I think this is the big trend. This is why I like what you guys are doing. One APIs we're built for the goodness of cloud. They're now the plumbing, you know, anytime you see plumbing involved, connection points, you know, that's pretty important. People are building it out and it has made the cloud what it is. Now, you got a security challenge. You gotta add more intelligence, more smarts to it. This is where I think platform versus tools matter. Can you guys just quickly share your thoughts on that? Cuz a lot of your customers and, and future customers have dealt with the sprawls of all these different tools. Right? I got a tool for this. I got a tool for that, but people are gravitating towards platforms, but how many platforms can a customer have? So again, this brings up the point point around how you guys are engaging with customers. Can you share your thoughts on tooling platforms? Your customers are constantly inundated with the same tsunami. Isn't new thing. Why, what, how should they look at this? >>Yeah, I mean, we don't wanna be, we don't wanna add to that alert fatigue problem that affects much of the cybersecurity industry by generating a whole bunch of alerts and so on. So what we do is we actually integrate very well with S IEM systems or so systems and allow customers to integrate the information that we are detecting or mitigating and feed them onto enterprise systems like a Splunk or a Datadog where they may have sophisticated processes built in to monitor, you know, spikes in anomalous traffic or actions that are taken by sequence. And that can be their dashboard where a whole bunch of alerting and reporting actually happens. So we play in the security ecosystem very well by integrating with other products and integrate very tightly with them, right outta the box. >>Okay. Mia, this is a wrap up now for the showcase. Really appreciate you guys sharing your awesome technology and very relevant product for your customers and where we are right now in this we call Supercloud or now multi-cloud or hybrid world of cloud. Share a, a little bit about the company, how people can get involved in your solution, how they can consume it and things they should know about, about sequence security. >>Yeah, we've been on this journey, an exciting journey it's been for, for about eight years. We have very large fortune 100 global 500 customers that use our platform on a daily basis. We have some amazing logos, both in Europe and, and, and in us customers are, this is basically not the shelf product customers not only use it, but depend on sequence. Several retailers. We are sitting in front of them handling, you know, black Friday, cyber, Monday, Christmas shopping, or any sort of holiday seasonality shopping. And we have handled that the journey starts by, by just simply looking at your API attack surface, just to a discover call with sequence, figure out where your APIs are posted work with you to prioritize how to protect them in a sort of a particular order and take the whole life cycle with sequence. This is, this is an exciting phase exciting sort of stage in the company's life. We just raised a very sort of large CDC round of funding in December from Menlo ventures. And we are excited to see, you know, what's next in, in, in the next, you know, 12 to 18 months. It certainly is the, you know, one of the top two or three items on the CSOs, you know, budget list for next year. So we are extremely busy, but we are looking for, for what the next 12 to 18 months are, are in store for us. >>Well, congratulations to all the success. So will you run the roadmap? You know, APIs are the plumbing. If you will, you know, they connection points, you know, you want to kind of keep 'em simple, as they say, keep the pipes dumb and make the intelligence around it. You seem to see more and more intelligence coming around, not just securing it, but does, where does this go in your mind? Where, where do we go beyond once we secure everything and manage it properly, APRs, aren't going away, they're only gonna get better and smarter. Where's the intelligence coming share a little bit. >>Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's not a dull moment in the space. As digital transformation happens to most enterprise systems, many applications are getting transformed. We are seeing an absolute explosion in the volume of APIs and the types of APIs as well. So the applications that were predominantly limited to data centers sort of deployments are now splintered across multiple different cloud environments are completely microservices based APIs, deep inside a Kubernetes cluster, for instance, and so on. So very exciting stuff in terms of proliferation of volume of APIs, as well as types of APIs, there's nature of APIs. And we are building very sophisticated machine learning models that can analyze traffic patterns of such APIs and automatically tell legitimate behavior from anomalous or suspicious behavior and so on. So very exciting sort of breadth of capabilities that we are looking at. >>Okay. I mean, yeah. I'll give you the final words since you're the CEO for the CSOs out there, the chief information security officers and the chief security officers, what do you want to tell them? If you could give them a quick shout out? What would you say to them? >>My shout out is just do an assessment with sequence. I think this is a repeating thing here, but really get to know your APIs first, before you decide what and where to protect them. That's the one simple thing I can mention for thes >>Am. Thank you so much for, for joining me today. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Okay. That is the end of this segment of the eight of his startup showcase. Season two, episode four, I'm John for your host and we're here with sequin security. Thanks for watching.

(light corporate music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to VMware Explore 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Dave Vellante. Our 12th year covering VMware's User Conference, formerly known as VMworld, now rebranded as VMware Explore. Two great cube alumnus coming down the cube. Ricky Cooper, SVP, Worldwide Partner Commercials VMware, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> We just had a great chat- >> Good to see you again. >> With the Discovery and, of course, Joseph George, vice president of Compute Industry Alliances. Great to have you on. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, John. >> So guys this year is very curious in VMware. A lot goin' on, the name change, the event. Big, big move. Bold move. And then they changed the name of the event. Then Broadcom buys them. A lot of speculation, but at the end of the day, this conference kind of, people were wondering what would be the barometer of the event. We're reporting this morning on the keynote analysis. Very good mojo in the keynote. Very transparent about the Broadcom relationship. The expo floor last night was buzzing. >> Mhm. >> I mean, this is not a show that's lookin' like it's going to be, ya' know, going down. >> Yeah. >> This is clearly a wave. We're calling it Super Cloud. Multi-Cloud's their theme. Clearly the cloud's happenin'. We not to date ourselves, but 2013 we were discussing on theCUBE- >> We talked about that. Yeah. Yeah. >> Discover about DevOps infrastructure as code- >> Mhm. >> We're full realization now of that. >> Yep. >> This is where we're at. You guys had a great partnership with VMware and HPE. Talk about where you guys see this coming together because customers are refactoring. They are lookin' at Cloud Native. The whole Broadcom visibility to the VMware customer bases activated them. They're here and they're leaning in. >> Yeah. >> What's going on? >> Yeah. Absolutely. We're seeing a renewed interest now as customers are looking at their entire infrastructure, bottoms up, all the way up the stack, and the notion of a hybrid cloud, where you've got some visibility and control of your data and your infrastructure and your applications, customers want to live in that sort of a cloud environment and so we're seeing a renewed interest. A lot of conversations we're having with customers now, a lot of customers committing to that model where they have applications and workloads running at the Edge, in their data center, and in the public cloud in a lot of cases, but having that mobility, having that control, being able to have security in their own, you know, in their control. There's a lot that you can do there and, obviously, partnering with VMware. We've been partners for so long. >> 20 years about. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. At least 20 years, back when they invented stuff, they were inventing way- >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> VMware's got a very technical culture, but Ricky, I got to say that, you know, we commented earlier when Raghu was on, the CEO, now CEO, I mean, legendary product. I sent the trajectory to VMware. Everyone knows that. VMware, I can't know whether to tell it was VMware or HP, HP before HPE, coined hybrid- >> Yeah. >> 'Cause you guys were both on. I can't recall, Dave, which company coined it first, but it was either one of you guys. Nobody else was there. >> It was the partnership. >> Yes. I- (cross talking) >> They had a big thing with Pat Gelsinger. Dave, remember when he said, you know, he got in my grill on theCUBE live? But now you see- >> But if you focus on that Multi-Cloud aspect, right? So you've got a situation where our customers are looking at Multi-Cloud and they're looking at it not just as a flash in the pan. This is here for five years, 10 years, 20 years. Okay. So what does that mean then to our partners and to our distributors? You're seeing a whole seed change. You're seeing partners now looking at this. So, look at the OEMs, you know, the ones that have historically been vSphere customers are now saying, they're coming in droves saying, okay, what is the next step? Well, how can I be a Multi-Cloud partner with you? >> Yep. Right. >> How can I look at other aspects that we're driving here together? So, you know, GreenLake is a great example. We keep going back to GreenLake and we are partaking in GreenLake at the moment. The real big thing for us is going to be, right, let's make sure that we've got the agreements in place that support this SaaS and subscription motion going forward and then the sky's the limit for us. >> You're pluggin' that right into GreenLake, right? >> Well, here's why. Here's why. So customers are loving the fact that they can go to a public cloud and they can get an SLA. They come to a, you know, an On-Premise. You've got the hardware, you've got the software, you've got the, you know, the guys on board to maintain this through its life cycle. >> Right. I mean, this is complicated stuff. >> Yeah. >> Now we've got a situation where you can say, hey, we can get an SLA On-Premise. >> Yeah. And I think what you're seeing is it's very analogous to having a financial advisor just manage your portfolio. You're taking care of just submitting money. That's really a lot of what the customers have done with the public cloud, but now, a lot of these customers are getting savvy and they have been working with VMware Technologies and HPE for so long. They've got expertise. They know how they want their workloads architected. Now, we've given them a model where they can leverage the Cloud platform to be able to do this, whether it's On-Premise, The Edge, or in the public cloud, leveraging HPE GreenLake and VMware. >> Is it predominantly or exclusively a managed service or do you find some customers saying, hey, we want to manage ourself? How, what are you seeing is the mix there? >> It is not predominantly managed services right now. We're actually, as we are growing, last time we talked to HPE Discover we talked about a whole bunch of new services that we've added to our catalog. It's growing by leaps and bounds. A lot of folks are definitely interested in the pay as you go, obviously, the financial model, but are now getting exposed to all the other management that can happen. There are managed services capabilities, but actually running it as a service with your systems On-Prem is a phenomenal idea for all these customers and they're opening their eyes to some new ways to service their customers better. >> And another phenomenon we're seeing there is where partners, such as HPA, using other partners for various areas of their services implementation as well. So that's another phenomenon, you know? You're seeing the resale motion now going into a lot more of the services motion. >> It's interesting too, you know, I mean, the digital modernization that's goin' on. The transformation, whatever you want to call it, is complicated. >> Yeah. >> That's clear. One of the things I liked about the keynote today was the concept of cloud chaos. >> Yeah. >> Because we've been saying, you know, quoting Andy Grove at Intel, "Let chaos rain and rain in the chaos." >> Mhm. >> And when you have inflection points, complexity, which is the chaos, needs to be solved and whoever solves it kicks the inflection point, that's up into the right. So- >> Prime idea right here. Yeah. >> So GreenLake is- >> Well, also look at the distribution model and how that's changed. A couple of points on a deal. Now they're saying, "I'll be your aggregator. I'll take the strain and I'll give you scale." You know? "I'll give you VMware Scale for all, you know, for all of the various different partners, et cetera." >> Yeah. So let's break this down because this is, I think, a key point. So complexity is good, but the old model in the Enterprise market was- >> Sure. >> You solve complexity with more complexity. >> Yeah. >> And everybody wins. Oh, yeah! We're locked in! That's not what the market wants. They want some self-service. They want, as a service, they want easy. Developer first security data ops, DevOps, is already in the cycle, so they're going to want simpler. >> Yeah. >> Easier. Faster. >> And this is kind of why I'll say, for the big announcement today here at VMware Explore, around the VMware vSphere Distributed Services Engine, Project Monterey- >> Yeah. >> That we've talked about for so long, HPE and VMware and AMD, with the Pensando DPU, actually work together to engineer a solution for exactly that. The capabilities are fairly straightforward in terms of the technologies, but actually doing the work to do integration, joint engineering, make sure that this is simple and easy and able to be running HPE GreenLake, that's- >> That's invested in Pensando, right? >> We are. >> We're all investors. Yeah. >> What's the benefit of that? What's, that's a great point you made. What's the value to the customer, bottom line? That deep co-engineering, co-partnering, what does it deliver that others don't do? >> Yeah. Well, I think one example would be, you know, a lot of vendors can say we support it. >> Yep. >> That's great. That's actually a really good move, supporting it. It can be resold. That's another great move. I'm not mechanically inclined to where I would go build my own car. I'll go to a dealership and actually buy one that I can press the button and I can start it and I can do what I need to do with my car and that's really what this does is the engineering work that's gone on between our two companies and AMD Pensando, as well as the business work to make that simple and easy, that transaction to work, and then to be able to make it available as a service, is really what made, it's, that's why it's such a winner winner with our- >> But it's also a lower cost out of the box. >> Yep. >> Right. >> So you get in whatever. Let's call it 20%. Okay? But there's, it's nuanced because you're also on a new technology curve- >> Right. >> And you're able to absorb modern apps, like, you know, we use that term as a bromide, but when I say modern apps, I mean data-rich apps, you know, things that are more AI-driven not the conventional, not that people aren't doing, you know, SAP and CRM, they are, but there's a whole slew of new apps that are coming in that, you know, traditional architectures aren't well-suited to handle from a price performance standpoint. This changes that doesn't it? >> Well, you think also of, you know, going to the next stage, which is to go to market between the two organizations that before. At the moment, you know, HPE's running off doing various different things. We were running off to it again, it's that chaos that you're talking about. In cloud chaos, you got to go to market chaos. >> Yeah. >> But by simplifying four or five things, what are we going to do really well together? How do we embed those in GreenLake- >> Mhm. >> And be known in the marketplace for these solutions? Then you get a, you know, an organization that's really behind the go to market. You can help with sales activation the enablement, you know, and then we benefit from the scale of HPE. >> Yeah. >> What are those solutions I mean? Is it just, is it I.S.? Is it, you know, compute storage? >> Yeah. >> Is it, you know, specific, you know, SAP? Is it VDI? What are you seeing out there? >> So right now, for this specific technology, we're educating our customers on what that could be and, at its core, this solution allows customers to take services that normally and traditionally run on the compute system and run on a DPU now with Project Monterey, and this is now allowing customers to think about, okay, where are their use cases. So I'm, rather than going and, say, use it for this, we're allowing our customers to explore and say, okay, here's where it makes sense. Where do I have workloads that are using a lot of compute cycles on services at the compute level that could be somewhere else like networking as a great example, right? And allowing more of those compute cycles to be available. So where there are performance requirements for an application, where there is timely response that's needed for, you know, for results to be able to take action on, to be able to get insight from data really quick, those are places where we're starting to see those services moving onto something like a DPU and that's where this makes a whole lot more sense. >> Okay. So, to get this right, you got the hybrid cloud, right? >> [Ricky And Joseph] Yes. >> You got GreenLake and you got the distributed engine. What's that called the- >> For, it's HPE ProLiant- >> ProLiant with- >> The VMware- >> With vSphere. >> That's the compute- >> Distributed. >> Okay. So does the customer, how do you guys implement that with the customer? All three at the same time or they mix and match? What's that? How does that work? >> All three of those components. Yeah. So the beauty of the HP ProLiant with VMware vSphere-distributed services engine- >> Mhm. >> Also known as Project Monterey for those that are keeping notes at home- >> Mhm. >> It's, again, already pre-engineered. So we've already worked through all the mechanics of how you would have to do this. So it's not something you have to go figure out how you build, get deployment, you know, work through those details. That's already done. It is available through HPE GreenLake. So you can go and actually get it as a service in partnership with our customer, our friends here at VMware, and because, if you're familiar and comfortable with all the things that HP ProLiant has done from a security perspective, from a reliability perspective, trusted supply chain, all those sorts of things, you're getting all of that with this particular (indistinct). >> Sumit Dhawan had a great quote on theCUBE just an hour or so ago. He said you have to be early to be first. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> I love that quote. Okay. So you were- >> I fought the urge. >> You were first. You were probably a little early, but do you have a lead? I know you're going to say yes, okay. Let's just- >> Okay. >> Let's just assume that. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Relative to the competition, how do you know? How do you determine that? >> If we have a lead or not? >> Yeah. If you lead. If you're the best. >> We go to the source of the truth which is our customers. >> And what do they tell you? What do you look at and say, okay, now, I mean, when you have that honest conversation and say, okay, we are, we're first, we're early. We're keeping our lead. What are the things that you- >> I'll say it this way. I'll say it this way. We've been in a lot of businesses where there, where we do compete head-to-head in a lot of places. >> Mhm. >> And we know how that sales process normally works. We're seeing a different motion from our customers. When we talk about HPE GreenLake, there's not a lot of back and forth on, okay, well, let me go shop around. It is HP Green. Let's talk about how we actually build this solution. >> And I can tell you, from a VMware perspective, our customers are asking us for this the other way around. So that's a great sign is that, hey, we need to see this partnership come together in GreenLake. >> Yeah. >> It's the old adage that Amazon used to coin and Andy Jassy, you know, they do the undifferentiated heavy lifting. >> [Ricky And Joseph] Yeah. >> A lot of that's now Cloud operations. >> Mhm. >> Underneath it is infrastructure's code to the developer. >> That's right. >> That's at scale. >> That's right. >> And so you got a lot of heavy lifting being done with GreenLake- >> Right. >> Which is why there's no objections probably. >> Right. >> What's the choice? What are you going to shop? >> Yeah. >> There's nothing to shop around. >> Yeah, exactly. And then we've got, you know, that is really icing on the cake that we've, you know, that we've been building for quite some time and there is an understanding in the market that what we do with our infrastructure is hardened from a reliability and quality perspective. Like, times are tough right now. Supply chain issues, all that stuff. We've talked, all talked about it, but at HPE, we don't skimp on quality. We're going to spend the dollars and time on making sure we got reliability and security built in. It's really important to us. >> We had a great use case. The storage team, they were provisioning with containers. >> Yes. >> Storage is a service instantly we're seeing with you guys with VMware. Your customers' bringing in a lot of that into the mix as well. I got to ask 'cause every event we talk about AI and machine learning- >> Mhm. >> Automation and DevOps are now infiltrating in with the CICD pipeline. Security and data become a big conversation. >> [Ricky And Joseph] Agreed. >> Okay. So how do you guys look at that? Okay. You sold me on Green. Like, I've been a big fan from day one. Now, it's got maturity on it. I know it's going to get a lot more headroom to do. There's still a lot of work to do, but directionally it's pretty accurate, you know? It's going to be a success. There's still concern about security, the data layer. That's agnostic of environment, private cloud, hybrid, public, and Edge. So that's important and security- >> Great. >> Has got a huge service area. >> Yeah. >> These are on working progress. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How do you guys view those? >> I think you've just hit the net on the head. I mean, I was in the press and journalist meetings yesterday and our answer was exactly the same. There is still so much work that can be done here and, you know, I don't think anybody is really emerging as a true leader. It's just a continuation of, you know, tryin' to get that right because it is what is the most important thing to our customers. >> Right. >> And the industry is really sort of catching up to that. >> And, you know, when you start talking about privacy and when you, it's not just about company information. It's about individuals' information. It's about, you know, information that, if exposed, actually could have real impact on people. >> Mhm. >> So it's more than just an I.T. problem. It is actually, and from HPE's perspective, security starts from when we're picking our suppliers for our components. Like, there are processes that we put into our entire trusted supply chain from the factory on the way up. I liken it to my golf swing. My golf swing. I slice right like you wouldn't believe. (John laughing) But when I go to the golf pros, they start me back at the mechanics, the foundational pieces. Here's where the problems are and start workin' on that. So my view is, our view is, if your infrastructure is not secure, you're goin' to have troubles with security as you go further up. >> Stay in the sandbox. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So to speak, you know, they're driving range on the golf analogy there. I love that. Talk about supply chain security real quick because you mentioned supply chain on the hardware side. You're seeing a lot of open source and supply chain in software, trusted software. >> Yep. >> How does GreenLake look at that? How do you guys view that piece of it? That's an important part. >> Yeah. Security is one of the key pillars that we're actually driving as a company right now. As I said, it's important to our customers as they're making purchasing decisions and we're looking at it from the infrastructure all the way up to the actual service itself and that's the beauty of having something like HPE GreenLake. We don't have to pick, is the infrastructure or the middle where, or the top of stack application- >> It's (indistinct), right? >> It's all of it. >> Yeah. >> It's all of it. That matters. >> Quick question on the ecosystem posture. So- >> Sure. >> I remember when HP was, you know, one company and then the GSIs were a little weird with HP because of EDS, you know? You had data protector so we weren't really chatting up Veeam at the time, right? And as soon as the split happened, ecosystem exploded. Now you have a situation where you, Broadcom, is acquiring VMware. You guys, big Broadcom customer. Has your attitude changed or has it not because, oh, we meet with the customers already. Well, you've always said that, but have you have leaned in more? I mean, culturally, is HPE now saying, hmm, now we have some real opportunities to partner in new ways that we don't have to sleep with one eye open, maybe. (John laughing) >> So first of all, VMware and HPE, we've got a variety of different partners. We always have. >> Mhm. >> Well before any Broadcom announcement came along. >> Yeah, sure. >> We've been working with a variety of partners. >> And that hasn't changed. >> And that hasn't changed. And, if your question is, has our posture toward VMware changed at all, the answer's absolutely not. We believe in what VMware is doing. We believe in what our customers are doing with VMware and we're going to continue to work with VMware and partner with the (indistinct). >> And of course, you know, we had to spin out ourselves in November of last year, which I worked on, you know, the whole Dell thing. >> Yeah. We still had the same chairman. >> Yeah. There- (Dave chuckling) >> Yeah, but since then, I think what's really become very apparent and not, it's not just with HPE, but with many of our partners, many of the OEM partners, the opportunity in front of us is vast and we need to rely on each other to help us as, you know, solve the customer problems that are out there. So there's a willingness to overlook some things that, in the past, may have been, you know, barriers. >> But it's important to note also that it's not that we have not had history- >> Yeah. >> Right? Over, we've got over 200,000 customers join- >> Hundreds of millions of dollars of business- >> 100,000, over 10,000, or 100,000 channel partners that we all have in common. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yep. >> There's numerous- >> And independent of the whole Broadcom overhang there. >> Yeah. >> There's the ecosystem floor. >> Yeah. >> The expo floor. >> Right. >> I mean, it's vibrant. I mean, there's clearly a wave coming, Ricky. We talked about this briefly at HPE Discover. I want to get an update from your perspectives, both of you, if you don't mind weighing in on this. Clearly, the wave, we're calling it the Super Cloud, 'cause it's not just Multi-Cloud. It's completely different looking successes- >> Smart Cloud. >> It's not just vendors. It's also the customers turning into clouds themselves. You look at Goldman Sachs and- >> Yep. >> You know, I think every vertical will have its own power law of Cloud players in the future. We believe that to be true. We're still testing that assumption, but it's trending in when you got OPEX- >> [Ricky And Joseph] Right. >> Has to go to in-fund statement- >> Yeah. >> CapEx goes too. Thanks for the Cloud. All that's good, but there's a wave coming- >> Yeah. >> And we're trying to identify it. What do you guys see as this wave 'cause beyond Multi-Cloud and the obvious nature of that will end up happening as a state and what happens beyond that interoperability piece, that's a whole other story, and that's what everyone's fighting for, but everyone out in that ecosystem, it's a big wave coming. They've got their surfboards. They're ready to go. So what do you guys see? What is the next wave that everyone's jacked up about here? >> Well, I think that the Multi-Cloud is obviously at the epicenter. You know, if you look at the results that are coming in, a lot of our customers, this is what's leading the discussion and now we're in a position where, you know, we've brought many companies over the last few years. They're starting to come to fruition. They're starting to play a role in, you know, how we're moving forward. >> Yeah. >> Some of those are a bit more applicable to the commercial space. We're finding commercial customers that never bought from us before. Never. Hundreds and hundreds are coming through our partner networks every single quarter, you know? So brand new to VMware. The trick then is how do you nurture them? How do you encourage them? >> So new logos are comin' in. >> New logos are coming in all the time, all the time, from, you know, from across the ecosystem. It's not just the OEMs. It's all the way back- >> So the ecosystem's back of VMware. >> Unbelievably. So what are we doing to help that? There's two big things that we've announced in the recent weeks is that Partner Connect 2.0. When I talked to you about Multi-Cloud and what the (indistinct), you know, the customers are doing, you see that trend. Four, five different separate clouds that we've got here. The next piece is that they're changing their business models with the partners. Their services is becoming more and more apparent, et cetera, you know? And the use of other partners to do other services, deployment, or this stuff is becoming prevalent. Then you've got the distributors that I talked about with their, you know, their, then you route to market, then you route to business. So how do you encapsulate all of that and ensure your rewarding partners on all aspects of that? Whether it's deployment, whether it's test and depth, it's a points-based system we've put in place now- >> It's a big pie that's developing. The market's getting bigger. >> It's getting so much bigger. And then you help- >> I know you agree, obviously, with that. >> Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, I think for a long time we were asking the question of, is it going to be there or is it going to be here? Which was the wrong question. (indistinct cross talking) Now it's everything. >> Yeah. >> And what I think that, what we're seeing in the ecosystem, is that people are finding the spots that, where they're going to play. Am I going to be on the Edge? >> Yeah. >> Am I going to be on Analytics Play? Am I going to be, you know, Cloud Transition Play? There's a lot of players are now emerging and saying, we're- >> Yeah. >> We're, we now have a place, a part to play. And having that industry view not just of, you know, a commercial customer at that level, but the two of us are lookin' at Teleco, are looking at financial services, at healthcare, at manufacturing. How do these new ecosystem players fit into the- >> (indistinct) lifting. Everyone can see their position there. >> Right. >> We're now being asked for simplicity and talk to me about partner profitability. >> Yes. >> How do I know where to focus my efforts? Am I spread too thin? And, you know, that's, and my advice that the partner ecosystem out there is, hey, let's pick out spots together. Let's really go to, and then strategic solutions that we were talking about is a good example of that. >> Yeah. >> Sounds like composability to me, but not to go back- (laughing) Guys, thanks for comin' on. I think there's a big market there. I think the fog is lifted. People seeing their spot. There's value there. Value creation equals reward. >> Yeah. >> Simplicity. Ease of use. This is the new normal. Great job. Thanks for coming on and sharing. (cross talking) Okay. Back to live coverage after this short break with more day one coverage here from the blue set here in Moscone. (light corporate music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Day three of the cube coverage here at VMware VMware Explorer, not world 12 years. The Cube's been covering VMware is end user conference this year. It's called explore previously world. We got two great guests, friends of the cube friend, cube, alumni and cloud rod, Keith Townson, principal CTO advisor, air streaming his way into world this year in a big way. Congratulations. And course James Erhard principal technology, a at tan zoo cloud ARA. He's been in cloud game for a long time. We've known each other for a long, long time, even before cloud was cloud. So great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >>Ah, it's a pleasure, always happy to >>Be here. So day threes are kind of like riff. I'll throw out super cloud. You guys will, will trash it. We'll debate. It'll be controversial and say this damage done by the over rotation of developer experience. We'll defend Tansu, but really the end of the game is, is that guys, we have been on the cloud thing for a long time. We're we're totally into it. And we've been saying infrastructure is code as the end state. We want to get there. Right? DevOps and infrastructure is code has always been the, the, the underlying fire burning in, in all the innovation, but it's now getting legitimately enterprised it's adopted in, in, in large scale, Amazon web services. We saw that rise. It feels we're in another level right now. And I think we're looking at this new wave coming. And I gotta say, you know, the Broadcom thing has put like an electric shock syndrome into this ecosystem cuz they don't know what's gonna happen next. So as a result, everyone's kind of gotta spring in their step a little, whether it's nervous, energy or excitement around something happening, it's all cloud native. So, you know, as VMware's got such a great investment in cloud native, but yet multi cloud's the story. Right? So, so messaging's okay. So what's happening here? Like guys let's, let's break it down. You're on the show floor of the Airstream you're on the inside, but with the seeing the industry, James will start with you what's happening this year with cloud next level and VMware's future. >>Yeah, I think the big thing that is happening is that we are beginning to see the true separation of capacity delivery from capacity consumption in computing. And what I mean by that is the, the abstractions that sort of bled between the idea of a server and the idea of an application have sort of become separated much better. And I think Kubernetes is, is the strong evidence of that. But also all of the public cloud APIs are strong evidence of that. And VMware's APIs, frankly, before that we're strong evidence of that. So I think what's, what's starting to happen now then is, is developers have really kind of pulled very far away from, from anything other than saying, I need compute, I need network. I need storage. And so now you're seeing the technologies that say, well, we've figured out how to do that at a team level, like one team can automate an application to an environment, but another team will, you know, other teams, if I have hundreds of teams or, or thousands of applications, how do I handle that? And that's what the excitement I think is right >>Now. I mean the, the developer we talking, we're going on camera before you came on camera Keith around, you know, your contr statement around the developer experience. Now we, I mean, I believe that the cloud native development environment is doing extremely well right now. You talk to, you know, look around the industry. It's, it's at an all time high and relative to euphoria, you know, sit on the beach with sunglasses. You couldn't be better if you were a developer open source, booming, everything's driving to their doorstep, self service. They're at the center of the security conversation, which shift left. Yeah. There's some things there, but it's, it's a good time. If you're a developer now is VMware gonna be changing that and, and you know, are they gonna meet the developers where they are? Are they gonna try to bring something new? So these are conversations that are super important. Now VMware has a great install base and there's developers there too. So I think I see their point, but, but you have a take on this, Keith, what's your, what's your position on this? How do the developer experience core and tangential played? >>Yeah, we're I think we're doing a disservice to the industry and I think it's hurting and, or D I think I'm gonna stand by my statement. It's damaging the in industry to, to an extent VMware >>What's damaging to the >>Industry. The focusing over focusing on developer experience developer experience is super important, but we're focusing on developer experience the, the detriment of infrastructure, the infrastructure to deliver that developer experience across the industry isn't there. So we're asking VMware, who's a infrastructure company at core to meet the developer where the developer, the developer is at today with an infrastructure that's not ready to deliver on the promise. So when we're, when NetApp is coming out with cool innovations, like adding block storage to VMC on AWS, we collectively yawn. It's an amazing innovation, but we're focused on, well, what does that mean for the developer down the road? >>It should mean nothing because if it's infrastructure's code, it should just work, right. >>It should just work, but it doesn't. Okay. >>I see the damage there. The, >>The, when you're thinking, oh, well I should be able to just simply provide Dr. Service for my on-prem service to this new block level stores, because I can do that in a enterprise today. Non-cloud, we're not there. We're not at a point where we can just write code infrastructure code and that happens. VMware needs the latitude to do that work while doing stuff like innovating on tap and we're, you know, and then I think we, we, when buyers look at what we say, and we, we say VMware, isn't meeting developers where they're at, but they're doing the hard work of normalizing across clouds. I got off a conversation with a multi-cloud customer, John, the, the, the, the unicorn we all talk about. And at the end I tried to wrap up and he said, no, no, no way. I gotta talk about vRealize. Whoa, you're the first customer I heard here talk about vRealize and, and the importance of normalizing that underlay. And we just don't give these companies in this space, the right >>Latitude. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to rock a little bit what you're saying. So from my standpoint, generically speaking, okay. If I'm a, if the developers are key to the, to the cloud native role, which I, I would say they are, then if I'm a developer and I want, and I want infrastructure as code, I'm not under the hood, I'm not getting the weeds in which some lot people love to do. I wanna just make things work. So meet me where I'm at, which means self-service, I don't care about locking someone else should figure that problem out, but I'm gonna just accelerate my velocity, making sure it's secure. And I'm moving on being creative and doing my thing, building apps. Okay. That's the kind of the generic, generic statement. So what has to happen in your mind to >>Get there? Yeah. Someone, someone has to do the dirty work of making the world move as 400, still propagate the data center. They're still H P X running SAP, E there's still, you know, 75% of the world's transactions happen through SAP. And most of that happens on bare metal. Someone needs to do the plumbing to give that infrastructure's cold world. Yeah. Someone needs to say, okay, when I want to do Dr. Between my on premises edge solution and the public cloud, someone needs to make it invisible to the Kubernetes, the, the Kubernetes consuming that, that work isn't done. Yeah. It >>Is. It's an >>Opportunity. It's on paper. >>It's an opportunity though. It's not, I mean, we're not in a bad spot. So I mean, I think what you're getting at is that there's a lot of fix a lot of gaps. All right. I want Jay, I wanna bring you in, because we had a panel at super cloud event. Chris Hoff, you know, beaker was on here. Yeah. He's always snarky, but he's building, he's been building clouds lately. So he's been getting his, his hands dirty, rolling up his sleeves. The title of panel was originally called the innovators dilemma with a question, mark, you know, haha you know, innovators, dilemma, little goof on that. Cuz you know, there's challenges and trade offs like, like he's talking about, he says we should call it the integrator's dilemma because I think a lot of people are talking about, okay, it's not as seamless as it can be or should be in the Nirvana state. >>But there's a lot of integration going on. A lot of APIs are, are key to this API security. One of the most talked about things. I mean I interviewed six companies on API security in the past couple months. So yeah. I mean I never talked to anybody about API security before this year. Yeah. APIs are critical. So these key things of cloud are being attacked. And so there's more complexity as we're getting more successful. And so, so I think this is mucking up some of the conversations, what's your read on this to make the complexity go away. You guys have the, the chaos rain here, which I actually like that Dave does too, but you know, Andy Grove once said let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. So we're in that reign in the chaos mode. Now what's your take on what Keith was saying around. Yeah. >>So I think that the one piece of the puzzle that's missing a little bit from Keith's narrative that I think is important is it's really not just infrastructure and developers. Right? It's it's there's in fact, and, and I, I wrote a blog post about this a long time ago, right? There's there's really sort of three layers of operations that come out of the cloud model in long term and that's applications and infrastructure at the bottom and in the middle is platform and services. And so I think one of the, this is where VMware is making its play right now is in terms of providing the platform and service capability that does that integration at a lower level works with VMs works with bare metal, works with the public cloud services that are available, makes it easy to access things like database services and messaging services and things along those lines. >>It makes it easy to turn code that you write into a service that can be consumed by other applications, but ultimately creates an in environment that begins to pull away from having to know, to write code about infrastructure. Right. And so infrastructure's, code's great. But if you have a right platform, you don't have to write code about infrastructure. You can actually D declare what basic needs of the application are. And then that platform will say, okay, well I will interpret that. And that's really, that's what Kubernetes strength is. Yeah. And that's what VMware's taking advantage of with what we're doing >>With. Yeah. I remember when we first Lou Tucker and I, and I think you might have been in the room during those OpenStack days and when Kubernetes was just starting and literally just happened, the paper was written, gonna go out and a couple companies formed around it. We said that could be the interoperability layer between clouds and our, our dream at that time was Hey. And, and we, we mentioned and Stratus in our, our super cloud, but the days of spanning clouds, a dream, we thought that now look at Kubernetes. Now it's kind of become that defacto rallying moment for, I won't say middleware, but this abstraction that we've been talking about allows for right once run anywhere. I think to me, that's not nowhere in the market today. Nobody has that. Nobody has anything that could write once, read one, write once and then run on multiple clouds. >>It's more true than ever. We had one customer that just was, was using AKs for a while and then decided to try the application on EKS. And they said it took them a couple of hours to, to get through the few issues they ran into. >>Yeah. I talked to a customer who who's going from, who went from VMC on AWS to Oracle cloud on Oracle cloud's VMware solution. And he raved about now he has a inherent backup Dr. For his O CVS solution because there's a shim between the two. And >>How did he do >>That? The, there there's a solution. And this is where the white space is. James talked about in the past exists. When, when I go to a conference like Cuban, the cube will be there in, in Detroit, in, in, in about 45 days or so. I talk to platform group at the platform group. That's doing the work that VMware red had hash Corp all should be doing. I shouldn't have to build that shim while we rave and, and talk about the power Kubernetes. That's great, but Kubernetes might get me 60 to 65% of their, for the platform right now there's groups of developers within that sit in between infrastructure and sit in between application development that all they do is build platforms. There's a lot of opportunity to build that platform. VMware announced tap one, 1.3. And the thing that I'm surprised, the one on Twitter is talking about is this API discovery piece. If you've ever had to use an API and you don't know how to integrate with it or whatever, and now it, it just magically happens. The marketing at the end of developing the application. Think if you're in you're, you're in a shop that develops hundreds of applications, there's thousands or tens of thousands of APIs that have to be documented. That's beating the developer where it's at and it's also infrastructure. >>Well guys, thanks for coming on the cube. I really appreciate we're on a time deadline, which we're gonna do more. We'll follow up on a power panel after VMware Explorer. Thanks for coming on the cube. Appreciate it. No problem. See you pleasure. Yeah. Okay. We'll be back with more live coverage. You, after this short break, stay with us.

(soft music) >> Welcome back, everyone. theCube's live coverage. Day two here at VMware Explore. Our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference formally called Vmworld, now it's VMware Explore. Exploring new frontiers multi-cloud and also bearing some of the fruit from all the investments in cloud native Tanzu and others. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We have the man who's in charge of a lot of that business and a lot of stuff coming out of the oven and hitting the market. Ajay Patel, senior vice president and general manager of the modern applications and management group at VMware, basically the modern apps. >> Absolutely. >> That's Tanzu. All the good stuff. >> And Aria now. >> And Aria, the management platform, which got social graph and all kinds of graph databases. Welcome back. >> Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. >> Great to see you in person, been since 2019 when you were on. So, a lot's happened since 2019 in your area. Again, things get, the way VMware does it as we all know, they announce something and then you build it and then you ship it and then you announce it. >> I don't think that's true, but okay. (laughs) >> You guys had announced a lot of cool stuff. You bought Heptio, we saw that Kubernetes investment and all the cloud native goodness around it. Bearing fruit now, what's the status? Give us the update on the modern applications of the management, obviously the areas, the big announcement here on the management side, but in general holistically, what's the update? >> I think the first update is just the speed and momentum that containers and Kubernetes are getting in the marketplace. So if you take the market context, over 70% of organizations now have Kubernetes in production, not one or two clusters, but hundreds of clusters, sometimes tens of clusters. So, to me, that is a market opportunity that's coming to fruition. Sometimes people will come and say, Ajay, aren't you late to the market? I say, no, I'm just perfectly timing it. 'Cause where does our value come in? It's enterprise readiness. We're the company that people look to when you have complexity, you have scale, you need performance, you need security, you need the robustness. And so, Tanzu is really about making modern applications real, helping you design, develop, build and run these applications. And with Aria, we're fundamentally changing the game around multicloud management. So the one-two punch of Tanzu and Aria is I'm most excited about. >> Isn't it true that most of the Kubernetes, you know, today is people pulling down open source and banging away. And now, they're looking for, you know, like you say, more of a robust management capability. >> You know, last two years when I would go to many of the largest customers, like, you know, we're doing good. We've got a DIY platform, we're building this. And then you go to the customer a year later, he's got knocked 30, 40 teams and he has Log4j happen. And all of a sudden he is like, oh, I don't want to be in the business of patching this thing or updating it. And, you know, when's the next shoe going to fall? So, that maturity curve is what I was talking about. >> Yeah. Free like a puppy. >> Ajay, you know, mentioned readiness, enterprise readiness and the timing's perfect. You kind of included, not your exact words, but I'm paraphrasing. That's a lot to do with what's going on. I mean, I'll say Cloud Native, IWS, think of the hyper scale partner, big partner and Google and even Google said it today. You know, the market world's spinning in their direction. Especially with respect to VMware. You get the relationship with the hyperscalers. Cloud's been on everyone's agenda for a long time. So, it's always been ready. But enterprise, you are customer base at VMware, very cloud savvy in the sense they know it's there, there's some dabbling, there's some endeavors in the cloud, no problem. But from a business perspective and truly transforming the VMware value proposition, is already, they're ready and it's already time now for them, like, you can see the movement. And so, can you explain the timing of that? I mean, I get enterprise readiness, so we're ready to scale all that good stuff. But the timing of product market fit is important here. >> I think when Raghu talks about that cloud first to cloud chaos, to cloud smart, that's the transition we're seeing. And what I mean by that is, they're hitting that inflection point where it's not just about a single team. One of the guys, basically I talked to the CIO, he was like, look, let's assume hypothetically I have thousand developers. Hundred can talk about microservices, maybe 50 has built a microservice and three are really good at it. So how do I get my thousand developers productive? Right? And the other CIO says, this team comes to me and says, I should be able develop directly to the public cloud. And he goes, absolutely you can do that. You don't have to come through IT. But here's the book of security and compliance that you need to enforce to get that thing in production. >> Go for it. >> Go for it. >> Good luck with that. >> So that reality of how do I scale my dev developers is turning into a developer experience problem. We now have titles which says, head of developer experience. Imagine that two years ago. We didn't talk about it. People start, hey, containers Kubernetes. I'm good to go. I can go get all the open source technology you talked about. And now they're saying no. >> And also software supply chains, another board that you're think. This is a symptom of the growth. I mean, open source is the software industry. That is, I don't think debatable. >> Right. >> Okay. That's cool. But now integration becomes vetting, trust, trusting codes. It's very interesting software time right now. >> That's right. >> And how is that impacting the cloud native momentum in your mind? Accelerating it? What inning are we in? How would you peg the progress? >> You know, on that scale of 1 to 10, I think we're halfway marked now. And that moved pretty quickly. >> It really did. >> And if you sit back today, the kinds of applications we're involved in, I have a Chicago wealth management company. We're building the next generation wealth management application. It's a fundamental refactoring of the legacy application. If you go to a prescription company, they're building a brand new prescription platform. These are not just trivial. What they're learning is the lift and shift. Doesn't work for these major applications. They're having to refactor them which is the modernization. >> So how specifically, are they putting some kind of abstraction layer on that? Are they actually gutting it and rewriting it? >> There's always going to be brownfield. Remember the old days of SOA? >> Yeah, yeah. >> They are putting APIs in front of their main systems. They're not rewriting the core banking or the core platform, but the user experience, the business logic, the AIML capability to bring intelligence in the platform. It's surrounding the capability to make it much more intuitive, much more usable, much more declarative. That's where things are going. And so I'm seeing this mix of integration all over again. Showing my age now. But, you know, the new EAI so is now microservices and messaging and events with the same patterns. But again, being much more accelerated with cloud native services. >> And it is to the point, it's accelerated today. They're not having to freeze the code for six months or nine months and that which would kill the whole recipe for failure. So they're able to now to fast track their modernization. They have to prioritize 'cause they got limited resources. But how are you guys coming up to that? >> But the practice is changing as well, right? Well, the old days, it was 12, 18 months cycle or anything software. If you heard the CVS CIO, Rohan. >> Yeah. >> Three months where they started to engage with us in getting an app in production, right? If you look at the COVID, 10 days to get kind of a new application for getting small loans going with Pfizer, right? These are dramatically short term, but it's not rewriting the entire app. It's just putting these newer experiences, newer capability in front with newer modern developer practices. And they're saying, I need to do it not just once, but for 100, 200, 5,000 members. JPMC has 50,000 developers. Fifty thousand. They're not a bank anymore. >> We just have thousands of apps. >> Exactly. >> Ajay, I want to get your thoughts on something that we've been talking about on our super cloud event. I know we had an event a couple weeks ago, you guys were one of our sponsors, VMware was. It was called super cloud where we're defining that this next gen environment's a super cloud and every company will have a super cloud capability. And underneath that is cross cloud capabilities. So, super cloud is like a super set on top of a multi-cloud. And little word play or play on words is, ecosystem partners versus partners in the ecosystem. Because if you're coming down to the integration side of things, it's about knowing what goes what, it's almost like building an OS if you're a coder or an operating systems person. You got to put the pieces together right, not just go to the directory and say, okay, who's got the cheapest price in DR or air gaping or something or some solution. So ecosystem partners are truly partners. Partners in the ecosystem are a bunch of people out on a list. How do you see that? Because the trend we're seeing is, the development process includes partners at day one. >> That's right. Not bolt-on. >> Completely agree. >> Share your thoughts on that. >> So let's look at that. The first thing I'm hearing from my customers is, they're trying to use all the public clouds as a new IS. That's the first API or contract infrastructures code IS. From then on they're saying, I want more and more portable services. And if you see the success of some of the data vendors and the messaging vendors, you're starting to see best of breed becoming part of the platform. So you are to identify which of these are truly, you know, getting market momentum and are becoming kind of defacto leaders. So, Kafka goes hand in hand with streaming. RabbitMQ from my portfolio goes with messaging. Postgres for database. So these are the, in your definition, ecosystem partners, they're foundational. In the security space, you know, Snyk is a common player in terms of scanning or Aqua and Prisma even though we have Carbon Black. Those become partners from a container security perspective. So, what's happening is the industry stabilizing a handful of critical players that are becoming multi-cloud preference of choice in this. And our job is to bring it all together in a all coordinated, orchestrated manner to give them a platform. >> I mean, you guys always had ecosystem, but I think that priority more than ever. It wasn't really your job at VMware, even, Dave, 10 years ago to say, hey, this is the strategic role that you might play one partner. It was pretty much the partners all kind of fed off the momentum of VMware. Virtualization. And there's not a lot of nuance there. There's pretty much they plug in and you got. >> So what we're doing here is, since we're not the center of the universe, unfortunately, for the application world, things like Backstage is a developer portal from Spotify that became open source. That's becoming the place where everyone wants to provide a plugin. And so we took Backstage, we said, let's provide enterprise support for Backstage. If you take a technology like, you know, what we have with Spring. Every job where developer uses Spring, how do we make it modern with Spring cloud. We work with Microsoft to launch a service with Azure Spring Enterprise for Spring. So you're starting to see us taking communities where they have momentum and bringing the ecosystem around those technologies. Cluster API for Kubernetes, for have you managed stuff. >> Yeah. >> So it's about standard. >> Because the developers are voting with their clicks and their code repos. And so you're identifying the patterns that they like. >> That's right. >> And aligning with them and connecting with them rather than trying to sell against it. >> Exactly. It's the end story with everyone. I say stop competing. So people used to think Tanzu is Kubernetes. It's really Tanzu is the modern application platform that runs on any Kubernetes. So I've changed the narrative. When Heptio was here, we were trying to be a Kubernetes player. I'm like, Kubernetes is just another dial tone. You can use mine, you can use OpenShift. So this week we announced support for OpenShift by Tanzu application platform. The values moving up, it's around outcomes. So industry standards, taking lead and solving the problem. >> You know, we had a panel at super cloud. Dave, I know you got a question. I'll get to you in a second. But the panel was the innovator's dilemma. And then during the event, one of the panelists, Chris Hoff knows VMware very well, Beaker on Twitter, said it should be called the integrators dilemma. Because the innovations here, >> How do you put it all together? >> But the integration of the, putting the piece parts together, building the thing is the innovation. >> And we come back and say, it's a secure software supply chain. It starts with great content. Did you know, I published most of the open source content on every hyperscaler through my Bitnami acquisition. So I start with great content that's curated. Then I allow you to create your own golden images. Then I have a build service that secures and so on and so forth and we bring the part. So, that opinionated solution, but batteries included but you can change it is been one of our key differentiator. We recognize the roles is going to be modular, come back and solve for it. >> So I want to understand sort of relationship Tanzu and Aria, John was talking about, you know, super cloud before we had our event. We had an earlier session where we help people understand that Aria was not, you know, vRealize renamed. >> It's rebranded. >> And reason I bring that up is because we had said it around super cloud, that one of the defining characteristics was, sorry, super PaaS, which is a specific purpose built PaaS layer designed to support your objective for multi-cloud. And speaking to a lot of people this week, there's a federated architecture, there's graph relationships, there's real time ability to ingest and analyze. That's unique. And that's IP that is purpose built for what you're doing. >> Absolutely. When I think what came out of all that learning is after 20 years of Pivotal and BA and what we learned that you still need some abstraction layer. Kubernetes is too low level. So what are the developer problems? What are the delivery problems? What are the operations and management problems? Aria solves all the operations and management problem. Tanzu solves a super PaaS problems. >> Yes. Right. >> Of providing a consistent way to build great software and the secure software supply chain to run on any infrastructure. So the combination of Tanzu and Aria complete the value chain. >> And it's different. Again, we get a lot of heat for this, but we're saying, look, we're trying to describe, it's not just IAS, PaaS, and SaaS of last decade. There's something new that's happening. And we chose the name super cloud. >> And what's the difference? It's modular. It's pluggable. It fits into the way you operate. >> Whereas PaaS was very prescriptive. If you couldn't fit, you couldn't jump down to the next level. This is very much, you can stay at the abstraction level or go lower level. >> Oh, we got to add that to the attribute. >> We're recruiting him right now. (laughs) >> We'll give you credit. >> I mean, funny all the web service's background. Look at an app server. You well knew all about app servers. Basically the company is an app. So, if you believe that, say, Capital One is an application as a company and Amazon's providing all the CapEx, >> That's it. >> Okay. And they run all their quote, old IT spend millions, billions of dollars on operating expenses that's going to translate to the top line called the income statement. So, Dave always says, oh, it's on the balance sheet, but now they're going to go to the top line. So we're seeing dynamic. Ajay, I want to get your reaction to this where the business model shift if everything's tech enabled, the company is like an app server. >> Correct. >> So therefore, the revenue that's generated from the technology, making the app work has to get recognized in the income. Okay. But Amazon's doing all, or the cloud hyperscale is doing all the heavy lifting on the CapEx. So technically it's the cloud on top of a cloud. >> Yes and no. The way I look at it, >> I call that a super cloud. >> So I like the idea of super cloud, but I think we're mixing two different constructs. One is, the cloud is a new hardware, right? In terms of dynamic, elastic, always available, et cetera. And I believe when more and more customer I talk about, there's a service catalog of infrastructure services. That's emerging. This super cloud is the next set of PaaS super PaaS services. And the management service is to use the cloud. We spend so much time as VMware building clouds, the problem seems, how do you effectively use the cloud? What problems do we solve around digital where every company is a digital company and the product is this application, as you said. So everything starts with an application. And you look at from the lens of how you run the application, what it costs the application, what impact it's driving. And I think that's the change. So I agree with you in some way. That is a digital strategy. >> And that's the company. >> That's the company. The application is the company. >> That's the t-shirt. >> And API is the currency. >> So, Ajay, first of all, we love having you in theCube 'cause you're like a masterclass in multiple dimensions. So, I want to get your thoughts on the abstraction layer. 'Cause we were also talking earlier in theCube here as well as before. But abstraction layers happen when you have major movements in markets that are game changing or major inflection points because you've reached a complexity point where it's working so great, this new thing, that's too complex to reign it in. And we were quoting Andy Grove by saying, "let chaos reign then reign in the chaos". So, all major industry moments go back 30, 40 years happen with abstractions. So the question is is that, you can't be a vendor, we've observed you can't be a vendor and be the abstraction. Like, if Cisco's running routers, they can't be the abstraction layer. They have to be the benefit of the abstraction layer. And if you're on the other side of the abstraction layer, you can't be running that either. >> I like the way you're thinking about it. Yeah. Do you agree? >> I completely agree. And, you know, I'm an old middleware guy. And when I used to say this to my CEO, he's like, no, it's not middleware, it's just a new middleware. And what's middleware, right? It's a thing between app and infrastructure. You could define it whatever we want, right? And so this is the new distributed middleware. >> It's a metaphor and it's a good one because it does a purpose. >> It's a purpose. >> It creates a separation but then you have, it's like a DMZ zone or whatever you want to call it. It's an area that things happen. >> But the difference before last time was, you could always deploy it to a thing. The thing is now the cloud. The thing is a set of services. So now it's as much of a networking problem at the application layer is as much as security problem. It's how you build software, how we design. So APIs, become part of your development. You can't think of APIs after the fact, right? When you build an API, you got to publish API because the minute you publish it and if you change it, the API's out of. So you can't have it as a documentation process. So, the way you build software, you use software consume is all about it. So to me, digital product with an API as a currency is where we're headed towards. >> Yeah, that's a great observation. Want to make a mental note of that and make that a clip. I want to get your thoughts on software development. You mentioned that, obviously software development life cycles are changing. I'll say open sources now. I mean, it's unlimited codes, supply chain issue. What's in the code, I get that verified codes going to happen. Is software development coding as much or is coding changing the notion of writing code? Or is it more glue layer you're writing. >> I think you're onto something. I call software developments composition now. My son's at Facebook or Google. They have so many libraries. So you don't no longer start with the very similar primitive, you start with building blocks, components, services, libraries, open source technology. What are you really doing? You're composing these things from multiple artifacts. And how do you make sure those artifacts are good artifacts? So someone's not sticking in security in a vulnerability into it. So, the world is moving towards composition and there are few experts who build the core components. Most of the time we're just using those to build solutions. And so, the art here is, how do you provide that set of best practices? We call them patterns or building blocks or services that you can compose to build these next generation (indistinct) >> It's interesting. >> Cooking meals. >> I agree with you a hundred percent what you're thinking. I agree about that worldview. Here's a dilemma that I'm seeing. In the security world, you've got zero trust. You know, Which is, I don't know you, I don't trust you at all. And if you're going to go down this composed, we're going to have an orchestra of players with instruments, say to speak, Dave, metaphor. That's trust involved. >> Yes. >> So you have two spectrums of issues. >> Yes. >> If software's going trust and you're seeing Docker containers getting more verifications, software supply chain, and then you got hardware I call network guys, love zero trust. Where's the balance? How do you reconcile that? Is it just decoupled? Nuance? I mean, what's the point? >> No, no. I think it all comes together. And what I mean by that is, it starts with left shifting it all the way to hands of the developers, right? So, are you starting with good content? You have providence of the stuff you're using. Are you building it correctly? So you're not introducing bad things like solar winds along the process. Are you testing it along the way of the development process? And then once in production, do you know, half the time it's configurations of where you're running the stuff versus the software itself. So you can think of the two coming together. And the network security is protecting people from going laterally once they've got in there. So, a whole security solution requires all of the above, a secure software supply chain, the way to kind of monitor and look at configuration, we call posture management or workload management and the network security of SaaS-e for zero trust. That's a hard thing. And the boundary is the application. >> All right. >> So is it earned trust model sort of over time? >> No, it's designed in, it's been a thing. >> Okay. So it's not a, >> Because it developed. >> You can bolt in afterwards. >> Because the developers are driving it. They got to know what they're doing. >> And it's changing every week. If I'm putting a new code out every week. You can't, it can be changed to something else. >> Well, you guys got guardrails. The guardrails constant is a good example. >> It stops on the configuration side, but I also need the software. So, Tanzu is all about, the secure chain is about the development side of the house. Guardrails are on the operational side of the house. >> To make sure the developers don't stop. >> That's right. >> Things will always get out there. And I find out there's a CV that I use a library, I found after the fact. >> Okay. So again, while I got here again, this is great. I want to get test this thesis. So, we've been saying on theCube, talking about the new ops, the new kind of ops that emerging. DevOps, which we believe is cloud native. So DevOps moving infrastructure's code, that's happened, it's all good. Open source is growing. DevOps is done deal. It's done deal. Developers are doing that. That ops was IT. Then don't need the server, clouds my hardware. Check. That balances. The new ops is data and security which has to match up to the velocity of the developers. Do you believe that? >> Completely. That's why we call it DevSecOps. And the Sec is where all the action is. >> And data. And data too. >> And data is about making the data available where the app meets. So the problem was, you know, we had to move the logic to where the data is or you're going to move the data where the logic is. So data fabrics are going to become more and more interesting. I'll give you a simple example. I publish content today in a service catalog. My customer's saying, but my content catalog needs to be in 300 locations. How do I get the content to each of the repos that are running in 300 location? So I have a content distribution problem. So you call it a data problem. Yes, it's about getting the right data. Whether it's simple as even content, images available for use for deployment. >> So you think when I think about the application development stack and the analytics stack, the data stack, if I can call it that, they're separate, right? Are those worlds, I mean, people say, I want to inject data and AI intelligence into apps. Those worlds have deployment? I think about the insight from the historical being projected in the operational versus they all coming together. I have a Greenplum platform, it's a great analytics platform. I have a transactional platform. Do my customers buy the same? No, they're different buyers, they're different users. But the insight from that is being now plugged in so that at real time I can ask the question. So even this information is being made available on demand. So that's where I see it. And that's most coming together, but the insight is being incorporated in the operational use. So I can say, do I give the risk score? Do I give you credit? It's based on a whole bunch of historical analytics done. And at the real time, processing is happening, but the intelligence is behind it. >> It's a mind shift for sure because the old model was, I have a database, we're good. Now you have time series database, you got graphs. Each one has a role in the overall construct of the new thing. >> But it's about at the end. How do I make use of it? Someone built a smart AI model. I don't know how it was built, but I want to apply it for that particular purpose. >> Okay. So the final question for you, at least from my standpoint is, here at VMware Explore, you have a lot of the customers and so new people coming in that we've heard about, what's their core order of operations right now? Get on the bandwagon for modern apps. How do you see their world unfolding as they go back to the ranch, their places, and go back to their boss? Okay. We got the modern application. We're on the right track boss, full steam ahead. Or what change do they make? >> I think the biggest thing I saw was with some of the branding changes well and some of the new offerings. The same leader had two teams, the VMware team and the public cloud team. And they're saying, hey, maybe VMware's going to be the answer for both. And that's the world model. That's the biggest change I'm seeing. They were only thinking of us on the left column. Now they see us as a unifying player to play across cloud native and VMware, the uniquely set up to bring it all together. That's been really exciting this week. >> All right, Ajay, great to have you on. Great perspective. Worthy of great stuff. Congratulations on the success of all that investment coming to bear. >> Thank you. >> And on the new management platform. >> Yeah. Thank you. And thanks always for giving us all the support we need. It's always great. >> All right Cube coverage here. Getting all the data, getting inside the heads, getting all the specifics and all the new trends and actually connecting the dots here on theCube. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay tuned for more coverage from day two. Two sets, three days, Cube at VMware Explore. We'll be right back. (gentle music)

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes, live coverage here at VMware Explorer, 22. We're here on the ground on the floor of Mosco. I'm John for David ante. We're at kit Goldberg, CTO of VMware, the star of the show, the headliner@supercloud.world. The event we had just a few weeks ago, kit. Great to see you super excited to, to chat with you. Thanks for coming on. Oh >>Yeah. Happy to be here, man. It's been a wild week. Tons of excitement. We are jazzed. We're jacked, like to look at things >>For both, of course, jacked up and jazzed. Ready to go. So you got UN stage loved your keynote, you know, very CTO oriented, hit the, all your marks cloud native, the vSphere eight intro. Yep. More performance, more power. Yeah, more efficiency. And now the cloud native over the top, you shipped a white paper a few weeks ago, which we discussed at our super cloud event. Yep. You know, really laying out the narrative of cloud native. This is the priority for you. Is that true? Is that your only priority? What are the things going on right now for you that are your top priorities, >>Top priorities. So absolutely at a high level, it's flushing out this vision that, that we're talking about in terms of what we call cross cloud services. Other people call multi-cloud, you guys have super cloud, but the point is, I think what we see is that there's these different sort of vertical silos, the different public clouds they're on-prem data center edge. And what we're looking at is trying to create a new type of cloud something that's more horizontal in architecture. And I think this is something that we realize we've been doing at VMware for a while, and we gave it a name, we call it cross cloud. But what's important is that while we do bring a lot of value there, we can't possibly do everything. This has to be an industrywide movement. And so I think what we're really excited about is figuring out, okay, how do we actually build an architecture and a framework such that there's clear sort of lines of responsibility. Here's what one company does. Here's what another one does make sure that there's clean sort of APIs between that basically an overall architecture and structure. So that's probably one of the, the high level things that we're doing as an organization right now. >>What's been the feedback here at VMware Explorer, obviously the new name, Explorer rag laid that out in the keynote. Yep. It's about moving forward. Not replacing the community. Yep. Extending the world core and exploring new frontiers multicloud. Obviously one of them key. Yeah. Very clever actually names dig into it. It's nuanced. What's been the reaction. Yep. You're right. Yep. You're crazy. I love it. I need it. It's it's too early. It's perfect timing. No, it's a bit of, what's the feedback always a little >>Bit of everything, you know, I think one of us firstno people didn't really understand it. I think people were confused about what it was, but now that we're here in person, I think generally speaking, I'm hearing a lot of positive things about it. We've been gone or been apart for three years now, right? Since the last in person one, and this is an interesting opportunity for recreation sort of rebirth, right? We've certainly lost some traditions during the COVID pandemic, but also gives us the opportunity to build new ones. And to your point, world was always associated with virtualization. And of course, we're still doing that. We're still doing cloud infrastructure, but we're doing so much more. And given this focus on multi-cloud that I just mentioned and how it is the go forward focus for VMware, we wanted to evolve the conference to have that focus. And so I've been actually really pleased to see how many folks for it's their first time here. Right? They haven't been Tom worlds before and you know, this broader sort of conference that we're creating to, to apply to the support, more disciplines, different focus areas, you know, application development, developers, platform teams, you got cloud management things with aria, public cloud management, networking security, and user computing, all in addition to the core infrastructure bits. >>So John all week's been paying homage to, to Andy Grove talking about, let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. Right. And so when you talk to customers, that chaos message cloud chaos, how is it resonating? Are they aware of that chaos? Are they saying, yes, we have cloud chaos or some saying, eh, yeah. It's okay. Everything's good. And they just maybe have some blind spots. What do >>You think? Yeah. I'm actually surprised at how strongly it's resonating. I mean, I think we knew that we were onto something, but people even love the specific term. They're like cloud chaos. I never thought about it that way, but you're like, you're absolutely right. It was a movie. It's a great, yeah. I know. Sounds like a thriller, but, but what we sort of, the picture we paint there about these silos across clouds, the duplication of technologies, duplication of teams and training, all this stuff. People realize that's where they're at. And it's one of those things where there's this headlong rush to cloud for good reasons. People wanted to be in the agility, but now they're dealing with some of that complexity that, that gets built up there and it absolutely is chaos. And while speed is great, you need to somehow balance that speed with control things like security compliance. These are sort of enterprise requirements that are sort of getting left out. And I think that's the realization, that's the sort of chaos that we're hitting on. >>It's almost like when in bus, in business school, you had the economic lines when break even hits, you know, cloud had a lot of great goodness to it. Yep. A lot of great value. It still does on the CapEx side, but as distributed computing architectures become reality. Yep. Private cloud instantiation of hybrid cloud operations. Now you've got edge and opening up all these new, new net new applications. Yep. What are you seeing there? And it's a question we've been asked some of the folks in the partner network, what are some of those new next gen apps that are gonna be enabled by, by this next wave edge specifically? Yeah. More performance, more application development, more software. Yeah. More faster, cheaper going on here. Kind of a Moore's law vibe there. What's next. >>Yeah. So, you know, when we look at edge, so, okay. Take today. Today. Edge is oftentimes highly customized software and hardware. It's not general purpose or to cloud technologies. And while edge is certainly gonna be limited. You can't just infinitely scale. Like you can in the cloud and the network bandwidth might be a little bit limited. You still wanna imagine it or manage it as if it were another cloud location, right. That like, I wanna be able to address it. Just like I addressed a certain availabilities done within AWS. I wanna be able to say the specific edge location at, you know, wherever somewhere here in San Francisco, let's say right now there's a few different things though. The first of which is that you got to manage at scale. Cause you don't have with cloud, you got a small number of very large locations with edge. >>You got a large number of very small locations. And so it's the scale is inverted there. So what this means is that you probably can't exactly specify which edge you want to go to. What instead you wanna say is more relational. Like I've got an IOT device out there. I want my app to be in data to be near it. And the system needs to figure out, okay, where do I put that thing? And how do I get it near it? And there may be some different constraints. You have cost security, privacy, it may be your edge or maybe telco edge location, you know, one, one of these sorts of things. Right? And so I think where we're going there is to enable the movement of applications and data to the right place. And this again goes back to the whole cross cloud architecture, right? >>You don't wanna be limited in terms of where you put an app, you wanna have that flexibility. This is the whole, you know, we use the term cloud smart. Right. And that's what it means. It's like put the, the app where it needs to be sort of the right tool for the right job. And so I think the innovation though, it's gonna be huge. You're gonna see new application architectures that the app can be placed near a user near a device near like a, an iPhone or near an IOT device, like a video camera. And the way that you manage that is gonna be much kind of infrastructure is code base. Yeah. So I think there's huge possibilities there. And it's really amazing to see just real quick on the telco side, what's happening there as well. The move to 5g, the move to open ran telco is now starting to adopt these data center and cloud technologies kinda standard building blocks that we use now out at the edge. So I think, you know, the amount of innovation that we're gonna see, >>It's really the first time on telco, they actually have a viable, scalable opportunity to, to put real gear data center, liked capabilities yep. At a location for specific purpose. Yeah. The edge function. >>Yeah. And well, and what we, without >>Building a, a monster >>Facility. Exactly. Yeah. It's like the base of a cell tower or something telephone closet. But what we've been able to do is improve these general purpose technologies. Like you look at vSphere in our hypervisor today. We are great at real time workloads, right? Like as a matter of fact, you look at performance on vSphere versus bare metal. Oftentimes an app runs faster on vSphere now because of all the efficiency and scale and so forth we can bring. So it means that these telecom applications that are very latency sensitive can now run fun on there. But Hey, guess what? Once you have a general purpose server that can run some of the telecom apps, well, Hey, you got extra space to run other apps. Maybe you could sell that space to customers or partners. And you know, then you have this new architecture >>Is the dev skill, a, a barrier for the, for the telcos, where are we at >>With that? It, it, it is. I think the barriers are really, how do you provide, I dunno if it's a skill set. I mean, there's probably some skill set aspects. I think in my mind, it's more about giving them the APIs to get access to that. Like, as I said, you're not gonna have developers knowing, okay, here are the specific geographic locations of all the cell towers in San Francisco and set what you're gonna say again, I need to be near this thing. And so you used geolocation and figure out, just put it some, put it in the right place. I don't really care. Right. So again, I think it's an evolution of management evolution of the APIs that developers use to access. Like today, I'm gonna say, okay, I know my app needs to be on the east coast so I can use us east one. I know the specific AZs at a, at a cloud level. That makes sense at an edge level. It doesn't, you're not gonna know. Okay. Like the specific cross streets or whatever, you gotta let the system figure that >>Out kid. I know you gotta go on. Times's tight, real quick. You got a session here on web three. Yeah. The Cube's got the, you know, the cube versus coming soon. We might be heavy. The cube versus coming powered by arm token, we had all kinds of stuff going on. Yep. You saw the preview a couple years ago. We did with the Cuban. Anyway, you did a session on web three and DM. VMware's rolling real quick. What was that about? Yeah, what's the purpose? >>What's the direction. That was a fascinating conversation. So I was talking about web three. It was talking about why enterprises haven't really started even to scratch the surface of the potential of web three. So part of it was like, okay, what is web three? It's a buzz words. We talked through that. We talked through the use of blockchain, how that sits with the core of a lot of web three. We talked about the use of cryptocurrency and how that makes sense. We talked about the consumerization, continuing consumerization of it. We've seen it with end user devices. We may well see it with some of the web three changes around ownership, individual ownership of data, of assets, et cetera. That's gonna have a downstream impact on enterprises, how they go to market their commercial models. So it was a fascinating discussion that unfortunately it's hard to summarize, but gotten to a lot of the nuances of this and some of the, are >>You bullish on >>It? Very bullish, a hundred percent. Like I think blockchain is a hugely enabling technology and not from a cryptocurrency standpoint, put that aside. All the enterprise use cases, we have customers like broad bridge financial today leveraging VMware blockchain, doing a hundred billion in transactions a day with the sort of repo market >>You think defi is booming >>Defi. So I, I think we're just starting to get there. But what you find is oftentimes these trends start on the consumer side and then all of a sudden they surprise enterprises. >>They call it a tri tried tread five traditional fi finance >>Versus okay. >>Any >>Other way around? No, no, no. But I'm saying is that it's, these consumer trends will start to impact enterprises. But what I'm saying is that enterprises need to be ready now or start preparing now for those comings. >>And what's the preparation for that? Just education learning. Yeah. >>Education learning, looking at blockchain, use cases, looking at what will this enable consumers to do that they couldn't do before there is gonna be a democratization of access to data. You're still gonna wanna have gatekeepers. You're still gonna wanna have enterprises or services that add value on top of that, but it's gonna be a bit more of an open ecosystem now, and that's gonna change some of the market dynamics in subtle ways. >>Okay. So we got one minute left. I want to ask you, what's your impression of the super cloud event we had also, you were headlining and you guys were a big part of bringing the, a large C of great people together. Are you happy with the outcome? What do you think's next for? >>Absolutely. No. I was super excited to see how much reception and engagement it got from across the industry. Right? So many different entry participants, so many different customers, partners, et cetera, viewing it online have had a lot of conversations here at explore already. As you know, you know, VMware, we put out a white paper, our point of view on what is a multi-cloud service. What is the taxonomy of those services? Again, as I mentioned before, we need to get as an industry to a place where we have alignment about this overall architecture to enable interoperability. And I think that's really the key thing. If we're gonna make this industry architectural shift, which is what I see coming, this is what we got. >>And you're gonna be jumping all in with this and helping out if we need you >>Hundred percent. All right. >>All in. I really love your transparency on the, on your white paper. Check out the white paper online on vmware.com. It's the cross cloud cloud native. I, I call the, the mission statement. It's not a Jerry McGuire memo. It's more me than that. It's the, it's the direction of cloud native. Yep. And multi-cloud thanks for coming on and, and thanks for doing that too. >>No, of course. And thanks for having me. Thanks. Love the discussion. >>Okay. More live coverage here at world Explorer, VMware Explorer, after the short break.

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco for VMware Explorer. I'm John farer, Dave LAN two days of Wal three days of Wal Walker. Two sets live events got PERA, had Metabo, senior vice president and general manager of cloud management at VMware. I got it. Right. Thanks for coming on the queue. >>You got it right. Good to >>Be here. We're all smiles. Cause we were talking about your history. You once worked at loud cloud and we were reminiscent about how cloud was before cloud was even cloud. Exactly. And how, how hard it was. >>And >>It's still hard. Complexity is a big deal. And one of the segments we want to talk to you about is the announcement around aria and you see cloud manage a big part of this direction to multi-cloud yes. To tame the complexity. And you know, we were quoting Andy Grove on the cube, let chaos rain, and then rain in the chaos. Exactly. Okay. A very famous quote in tech and the theme here is cloud chaos. Yes. And so we're starting to see signs of raining in that chaos or solving complexity. And every major inflection point has this moment where yes, it gets so hard and then it kicks up to the right and grows and link gets solved. So we feel like we're in that moment. >>I couldn't agree more. And in fact, the way I say is our, our, our tagline is we make the complexity of managing cloud invisible so that you can focus on building your business apps. And you're right about the inflection point. Every time a new technology hits, you have some point of adoption and then it becomes insanely successful. And that's when the complexity hits, then you go and tame the complexity till the next technology hits. Right? That's what happens. It's happened with virtualization. Then it has happened with cloud then with containerization and now the next one will hit. And so with aria, we said, we have to fundamentally change the problem, right? We are constantly running a race of TAing, this complexity. So very excited about this announcement with which we're doing with aria. And we said, imagine if I could have a view of my environment and all the dependencies, I don't need to know everything, just the environment and its dependencies. Then I can now start solving problems and answering questions that I was unable to before. And newer technologies can keep coming and piling on, but I'll always be able to answer that, help >>Our audience understand Ari, a great name and, and what's new. Your Heka what's new from, you know, it's not just V V realize with a new name what's what's new specifically. >>Yeah. Please. No. >>Explain some people. Well, >>There's some commentary on snarky comments, but it's a product it's not a rebrand of something >>Else. It's right. It's not explain that. It's not a, yeah. So what we did is let, let me start off. Why, why we started aria? So we said, okay, native public managing environments, native public cloud environments and cloud native applications is a different ballgame, more Emeral workloads, very large scale, highly fragmented data. So we looked at that problem rounds up and said, we need to have a management solution that solves that problem focused on native public cloud and cloud native apps and the core to solving that problem was you can't just solve it for one cloud or you can't solve it for one discipline. When I say discipline, when you think about management, what do you manage? You're managing to optimize cost. You're managing to optimize performance. You're managing to optimize your security and you're managing to speed up the delivery. That is it. And so we said, we'll have a new look to this management. And what we have done with aria is we have introduced a brand new platform, which we call aria hub powered by aria graph, which allows you to deliver this man on this management challenges, by creating a map of your environment, a near real time map of your environment. And then we are able to, once we know what an application looks like and how it maps to the infrastructure, we can go and query other subsystems to tell you, what is the cost of an application? What is the performance of an application? Creating a common understanding >>This now it's a new architecture. >>I just wanted to get that out there. It's federated >>New graph database. >>Yes. It's a new architecture federated, a platform that not only gives you a map of your environment, but it federates into other sources to pull that data together. Right now, one of the data sources that it federates into is of course also we realize, yeah, yeah. Cloud health, >>You plug and >>Cloud observability. You plug everything into it. Yeah. And as part of the announcement, we didn't just announce a platform. We also announced a set of crosscutting solutions cuz we said, okay, what is the power of the platform? The big thing is it removes the swivel share management. It allows you to answer questions you couldn't answer before. And so >>Swivel share meaning going from one app to another one app logging in exactly >>Credentials in credentials. And you don't have a common understanding of app across those. So now you hire people who do integration buses, right? All kinds of cloud. So the three new end to end solutions we are announcing also in, along with the platform, these are brand new. One is something called aria guardrails. So when I have development environments today, for example, my, I do development on public cloud as well as private cloud. I have thousands of accounts, each one with its own security rules, each one with its own policies. After I initially deploy the account, it becomes a nightmare to manage that. So what aria guardrails allows you to do is set up these multi-cloud environments with the right policies. And not only is it about one time provisioning, but it is maintaining them on >>A run basis. And those credentials are also risk. Cuz you have a password on the dark web, that's exposed on one and you've got to change it. And, and there's so many things going on exactly on security, which brings me up to the point of, you know, we were talking, we're gonna see Tom later on security. We heard earlier, why wasn't security in the keynote? Oh, it's table stakes. That's what Z has said. But we're like, okay, I get that. So let's just say that security is table stakes. There's a big trend towards security as a state of something at a, at a given time. And that CSOs and CSOs are going to defensible. Yes. Meaning being defensible all the time. Yes. As an ongoing thing, which is not just running a pen test once a week. Yes. Like multiple testing, real testing. Not simulation. Yes. To be secure. Yes. So it's not about being secure. It's about having security, but defense ability is the action now not yeah. Yeah. >>Can >>You does that, how does that fit into this? Because this seems to like be in this wheelhouse of management. >>No, I think you're bringing a very important point, which is the security as a post. The fact item is no longer. Right? Right. You want to bake in security. This is a shift left of security that we talk about when you're building an application and you are deploying code in your test, you wanna say, Hey, what is the security? Is it secure? Is it meeting my guardrail? Then when you deploy it from an operations perspective, also it is a security concern. It's not just a security team's concern now. So is my configuration right? Is my configuration secure? Has, is it drifting? It's never a snapshot in time. It's constantly, you have to look at it. Is it drifting? And that is exactly what we are doing also with aria. So >>That's part of the solution you're talking about in the guardrails within being >>Able to maintain the secure configuration right now, as I said, there's always a security discipline. Yeah. Which is you are done by security teams, but you also want operations teams and development teams to enforce security in their respective practices. And that's what Ari allows you to do. >>So the question on multi-cloud comes in, okay. So this is all good. By the way, we love that shift left again, very developer. And I would argue actually we are argue on the cube. That dev ops is the development environment for cloud native. So the it operational once called ops is now in dev just saying he is, and then data ops and security ops are now the new it because that's where the hard problems are. So how do you look at the data side of it as well as security in your view of multi-cloud because you know, hybrid cloud, I can see the steady state between, you know, on premises and cloud, if it's operating cloudlike but now you're starting to look at spanning clouds. Yes. Yes. Not full spanning workloads. That's not there yet, but certainly people have multiple clouds. Yeah. But when you data seems to be the first thing spanning not necessarily the app itself, but how do you guys view that multi-cloud aspect of what you're managing? I mean, how you look at that? >>I think there are different angles to it. Right? You can look at it from the data angle and you look at it on how the, how protected a data is for us. When you look at management discipline, it is all from the perspective of configurations. Okay. If I have configured my environment correctly, then you should not be able to do something that destroys or the data. Right. So getting the configuration right. When you're developing that, getting the configuration right. When you're provisioning the app and then getting the configuration, right. Even when you're doing day two and ongoing operations, that is what we bring to the table. And to some extent, that aria visibility, that I was talking about an Ary graph, a near real time view of the configuration state and its dependencies is very critical. So now I can ask questions. Is there a misconfiguration, by the way, the answer is yes, they, yeah. >>That is a lot by the way, too, right? Yeah. >>Which, which exposes me. And then you can say, Hey, is there user activity associated with that misconfigured? Good object. Now suddenly you have go, go to a red alert. So not only something misconfigured, but there is user activity associated with the misconfigured data. You know, this is something that I have. This >>Is where AI sings beautifully because beautifully, once you have the configuration baseline done, yes. It's like securing the S3 bucket, which is like a knee has to be a like brushing your teeth. It's gotta be a habit. Exactly. It's like, you just don't even think about, you just don't leave an S3 bucket. >>It's gotta be simplified because you're, we're asking the devs now to be security pros, correct. Secure the run time, secure the paths, you know, secure the containers. And so they need help. This is not what they wake up in the morning passionate about. Right. >>But that is where the guardrails comes in. Totally. Yeah. So a a developer, why should they care? They should just say, look, I'm developing for the credit card industry. I need a PCI compliant environment. And then let us take care of defining that environment, deploying that environment, managing that environment on an ongoing basis, they should be building code. Yeah. Right. But there is a change also, which is in the past, these were like two different islands and two different views with aria graft. We also have created this unified API that a developer could query or an ops could query to create a common understanding of the environment. So you're not looking at, you know, the elephant won the trunk and the other one, the tail you're looking at it in a common way. >>Can you talk about the collaboration between tan zoo and aria portfolios? Because obviously the VMware customers are investing in tan zoo. A lot of stuff's coming outta the oven. We heard some Dave heard some stuff from Chris Wolf and he's gonna come on tomorrow. And Raghu was hinting at some other stuff. That's not yet public, but you know, this things happening, >>Things happening, lot of >>Things, you know, you know, announcements happened years ago last year. Now some fruit's coming off the tree, this is a hot product aria. It makes a lot of sense for the customers. Where's the cloud native stuff, kicking, connecting in. What's the give us the overview what's connection >>Is lots and lots of connections. So you have a beautiful Kubernetes environment and a cloud native platform. You have accelerated app development. Now you're building more apps, more microservices based apps, more fragmented data, more information. So think of aria as an envelope around all of this. So wherever you are, whether you are building an application, deploying an application, managing an application, retiring an application through that life cycle, we can bring that management. So what we are doing with Tansu is with the platform, develop and platform. Now we can hook in management with a common perspective earlier in the life cycle. I don't have to wait for it to go to production to start saying, is it secure? Is it configured? How is it performing? What is my cost trade off as a developer, I've decided to, to fix a latency issue, I'm gonna add a new region or I'm gonna scale out a particular tier. Do I know how much it'll cost me? Can I give you that right at your fingertips, potentially even within the development platform and within the ID, that's the power, right? So bringing Ary, >>Not a lot of heavy lifting on the develop. So it's pretty much almost like a query to a database or >>As simple API that they can just query as part of their development process. Yeah. So by bringing aria and Tansu and really aria en developing Tansu right. You're able to bring that power >>Developer. I just always smile because you, I remember we, we have a group called the cloud. AATI the early OG found cloud. >>AATI >>The early days of cloud. When we were talking about infrastructure as code yes. Way back when, and finally it's actually happening. So what you're describing is infrastructure's code because now there's more complexity happening under the hard and top and you know, service are being turned on and off automatically. Yes. And sometimes you might not even know what's going on. Exactly. If you have guard rail, >>But you have to discover the state, know something has turned on, understand the implication and then synthesize, synthesize it down to the insight for the user. >>You know, a lot of people have been complaining about other older companies. Like Splunks the world who have great logging technology for gen one cloud, but now these new logging logging becomes a problem. Can you talk about how you guys are handling that? Give confidence or yeah. Explain that there's everything's gonna be logged properly. Yeah. >>So, so really look, there are three disciplines that we have management. Discipl like, ultimately there are thousands of names, but it boils down to you're managing the cost. You're managing the security, you're managing the performance of your applications. That is it. Right. So what we found is when you think of these disciplines as siloed load solutions, you can't ask a simple question as what is my cost performance trade off. You can't ask a simple question as, Hey, I'm improving performance. How, what is the implication of security? And that's when you start building complex solutions that say, okay, let me collect log from here. Let me collect this from here. Then let me correlate and normalize an application definition and tell you something and then put it in a spreadsheet and put it in a spreadsheet finally for manual work. Exactly. So one of the pillars is about managing performance. >>We have very powerful capabilities today in our portfolio. Tansu observability, which is part of aria portfolio. We realize log, which is part of aria portfolio, networks, insights, and operations. So with the common, when you, when you have a common language, we have a common language. We understand each other. Similarly with Ary graph and aria hub, we have creating this common language. So once we create a common language, all the various observability and log solutions have a meaning. They have relevance. And so we are able to take the noise from all these systems and synthesize it down to what we call business insights. And that's what is one of the big announcement as part of aria, awesome take data, which we have lots of and convert it to information. >>Give us the bumper sticker on why VMware. >>Well, I I'll tell you, when you talk about various public clouds, each public cloud has their native solutions. I've got control tower, I've got cloud wash, cloud trail, different solutions, and some of the hyperscalers are also expanding their solutions to other cloud. I think VMware in a way, from a multi-cloud perspective, we are in a wonderfully neutral position. Not only do we have a wealth of technology and assets that we can bring to the game, but we can also do it evenly across all clouds. So, so look at something like cost. Do you trust one of the hyperscalers to tell you that what is the cost comparison between them and another hyperscaler? That is where the VMware value comes in? >>I think people just try to hear what the cost of one cloud. Exactly, exactly. That is often people make money doing that is a job. No, >>No, definitely. Even a single cloud. What is the cost? >>It's a cloud economist out there and we know who he is. Corey Corey, a friend of the cube. He does it for his living. So help people figure out their bill. Exactly. Just on one cloud. >>Exactly. It's one cloud. So being able, we have the unique position where, and the right sets of technologies and experiences to bring that solution to bear across multicloud. Right. Great. >>What's your vision real quick. One minute left. What's your vision for the group? What are you investing in? What's your goals? What are you trying to do? Ask you the products. New. Gonna roll that out. What's what's the plan. I >>Really, again, the biggest one, the, the, the tagline I talked about, right. I, I, I want to, you know, I'm telling customers, managing stuff is boring. Don't waste your time on it. Let us take care of it. Right? So make the cloud complexity invisible so that you can focus on building your applications and everything that we do in the business unit is targeted towards that one goal. It is not about doing more features, more capabilities. It's are you solving customers questions? And we start from question down, >>Be thank you for spending your valuable time here in the cube, explaining the new news. Appreciate it. All right. Get lunch. After the short breaks, stay more with the cube live here in San Francisco for VMware Explorer, 22. I'm John that's. Dave. >>Thank you.

(bright intro music) >> Welcome back everyone to VMware Explore '22. I'm John Furrier, host of the key with David Lante, our 12th year covering VMware's user conference, formerly known as VM-World now rebranded as VMware Explore. You got two great Cube alumni coming on the Cube. Ricky Cooper, SVP worldwide partner commercial VMware. Great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> We just had a great chat-- >> Good to see you again. >> At HPE discover. And of course, Joseph George, Vice President of Compute Industry Alliances. Great to have you on. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, John. >> So guys, this year is very curious, VMware, a lot going on. The name change of the event. Big move, Bold move. And then they changed the name of the event. Then Broadcom buys them. A lot of speculation, but at the end of the day, this conference... Kind of people were wondering what would be the barometer of the event. We were reporting this morning on the keynote analysis. Very good mojo in the keynote. Very transparent about the Broadcom relationship. The expo floor last night was buzzing. I mean, this is not a show that's looking like it's going to be, you know, going down. This is clearly a wave. We're calling it super cloud, multi-cloud's their theme. Clearly the cloud's happening. Not to date ourselves, but 2013 we were discussing on the-- >> We talked about that, yeah. >> HPE Discover about DevOps infrastructure as code. We're full realization now of that. This is where we're at. You guys had a great partnership with VMware and HPE. Talk about where you guys see this coming together because the customers are refactoring, they are looking at cloud native, the whole Broadcom visibility to the VMware customer bases activated them. They're here and they're leaning in. What's going on? >> Yeah absolutely, we're seeing a renewed interest now as customers are looking at their entire infrastructure, bottoms up all the way up the stack and the notion of a hybrid cloud, where you've got some visibility and control of your data and your infrastructure and applications. Customers want to live in that sort of a cloud environment. And so we're seeing a renewed interest, a lot of conversations we're having with customers now, a lot of customers committing to that model, where they have applications and workloads running at the edge in their data center and in the public cloud in a lot of cases. But having that mobility, having that control, being able to have security in their own control. There's a lot that you can do there. And obviously partnering with VMware. We've been partners for so long. >> 20 years, at least. >> At least 20 years. Back when they invented stuff. They were inventing way-- >> VMware's got a very technical culture, but Ricky, I got to say that we commented earlier when Ragu was on the CEO now CEO, I mean legendary product guy, set the trajectory to VMware, everyone knows that. I can't know whether it was VMware or HP, HP before HPE coined Hybrid. Cause you guys were both on, I can't recall Dave, which company coined it first, but it was either one of you guys. Nobody else was there. >> It was the partnership. (men chuckle) >> Hybrid Cloud I had a big thing with Pat Gelsinger, Dave. Remember when he said he got in my grill on theCube, live, but now you see. >> You focus on that multi-cloud aspect. So you've got a situation where our customers are looking at multi-cloud and they're looking at it, not just as a flash in the pan. This is here for five years, 10 years, 20 years. Okay. So what does that mean then to our partners and to our distributors, you're seeing a whole seed change. You're seeing partners now looking at this. So look at the OEMs, the ones that have historically been vSphere customers and now saying they're coming in, drove saying, okay, what is the next step? Well, how can I be a multi-cloud partner with you? How can I look at other aspects that we're driving here together? So GreenLake is a great example. We keep going back to GreenLake and we are partaking in GreenLake at the moment. The real big thing for us is going to be right. Let's make sure that we've got the agreements in place that support this Sasson subscription motion going forward. And then the sky's the limit for us. >> You're plugging that right into. >> Well, here's why, here's why, so customers are loving the fact that they can go to a public cloud and they can get an SLA. They come to an on-premise, you've got the hardware, you've got the software, you've got the guys on board to maintain this through its life cycle. I mean, this is complicated stuff. Now we've got a situation where you can say, Hey, we can get an SLA on premise. >> And I think what you're seeing is it's very analogous to having a financial advisor, just manage your portfolio. You're taking care of just submitting money. That's really a lot of what a lot of the customers have done with the public cloud. But now a lot of these customers are getting savvy. They have been working with VMware technologies and HPE for so long. they've got expertise. They know how they want their workloads architected. Now we've given them a model where they can leverage the cloud platform to be able to do this, whether it's on premise, the edge or in the public cloud, leveraging HPE GreenLake and VMware. >> Is it predominantly or exclusively a managed service or do you find some customers saying, hey, we want to manage ourself. What are you seeing is the mix there? >> It is not predominantly managed services right now. We're actually, as we are growing last time we talked at HPE discover. We talked about a whole bunch of new services that we've added to our catalog. It's growing by leaps and bounds. A lot of folks are definitely interested in the pay as you go, obviously the financial model, but are now getting exposed to all the other management that can happen. There are managed services capabilities, but actually running it as a service with your systems on-prem is a phenomenal idea for all these customers. And they're opening their eyes to some new ways to service their customers better. >> And another phenomenon we're seeing there is where partners such as HPA, using other partners for various areas of the services implementation as well. So that's another phenomenon. You're seeing the resale motion now going into a lot more of the services motion. >> It's interesting too. I mean the digital modernization that's going on, the transformation whatever you want to call it, is complicated, that's clear. One of the things I liked about the keynote today was the concept of cloud chaos, because we've been saying quoting Andy Grove, Next Intel, let chaos rain and rain in the chaos. And when you have inflection points, complexity, which is the chaos, needs to be solved and whoever solves it and kicks the inflection point, that's up and to the right. >> So prime idea right here. So. >> GreenLake is, well. >> Also look at the distribution model and how that's changed a couple of points on a deal. Now they're saying I'll be your aggregator. I'll take the strain and I'll give you scale. I'll give you VMware scale for all of the various different partners, et cetera. >> Yeah. So let's break this down because this is, I think a key point. So complexity is good, but the old model in the enterprise market was, you solve complexity with more complexity and everybody wins. Oh yeah, we're locked in. That's not what the market wants. They want self- service, they want as a service, they want easy, developer first security data ops. DevOps is already in the cycle. So they're going to want simpler, easier, faster. >> And this is kind of why I I'll say for the big announcement today here at VMware Explorer around the VMware vSphere distributed services engine, project Monterey that we've talked about for so long, HPE and VMware and AMD with the Pensando DPU actually work together to engineer a solution for exactly that. The capabilities are fairly straightforward in terms of the technologies, but actually doing the work to do integration, joint engineering, make sure that this is simple and easy and able to be running HPE GreenLake. >> We invested in Pensando right, we are investors. >> What's the benefit of that. That's a great point. You made what's the value to the customer bottom line, that deep, co-engineering, co-partnering, what is it deliver that others don't do? >> Yeah. Well, I think one example would be a lot of vendors can say we support it. >> Yep. That's great. That's actually a really good move, supporting it. It can be resold. That's another great move. I'm not mechanically inclined to where I would go build my own car. I'll go to a dealership and actually buy one that I can press the button and I can start it and I can do what I need to do with my car. And that's really what this does is the engineering work that's gone on between our two companies and AMD Pensando as well as the business work to make that simple and easy that transaction to work. And then to be able to make it available as a service is really what made, that's why it's such a winner here... >> But, it's also a lower cost out of the box. Yes. So you get in whatever it's called a 20%. Okay. But there's nuance because you're also on a new technology curve and you're able to absorb modern apps. We use that term as a promo, but when I say modern apps, I mean data, rich apps, things that are more AI driven. Not the conventional, not that people aren't doing, you know, SAP and CRM, they are. But, there's a whole slew of new apps that are coming in that traditional architectures aren't well suited to handle from a price performance standpoint. This changes that doesn't it? >> Well, you think also of going to the next stage, which is the go to market between the two organizations that before at the moment, HPE is running off doing various different things. We were running off to. Again, that chaos that you're talking about in cloud chaos, you got to go to market chaos, but by simplifying four or five things, what are we going to do really well together? How do we embed those in GreenLake and be known in the marketplace for these solutions? Then you get an organization that's really behind the go to market. You can help with sales, activation, the enablement. And then we benefit from the scale of HPE. >> Yeah. What are those solutions, I mean... Is it just, is it IS? Is it compute storage? Is it specific SAP? Is it VDI? What are you seeing out there? >> So right now for this specific technology, we're educating our customers on what that could be. And at its core, this solution allows customers to take services that normally and traditionally run on the compute system and run on a DPU now with project Monterey. And this is now allowing customers to think about where are their use cases. So I'm rather than going and say, use it for this. We're allowing our customers to explore and say, okay, here's where it makes sense. Where do I have workloads that are using a lot of compute cycles on services at the compute level? That could be somewhere else like networking as a great example, and allowing more of those compute cycles to be available. So where there are performance requirements for an application where there are timely response that's needed for results to be able to take action on, to be able to get insight from data really quick. Those are places where we're starting to see the services moving onto something like a DPU. And that's where this makes a whole lot more sense. >> Okay, so to get this right? You got the hybrid cloud, right? You got GreenLake and you got the distributed engine. What's that called? >> It's HPE Proliant Proliant with the VMware, VSphere. >> VSphere. That's the compute distributed. Okay. So does the customer, how do you guys implement that with the customer all three at the same time or they mix and match? How's that work? >> All three of those components. So the beauty of the HP Proliant with VMware vSphere distributed services engine also now is project Monterey for those that are keeping notes at home. Again already pre-engineered so we've already worked through all the mechanics of how you would have to do this. So it's not something you have to go figure out how you build, get deployment, work through those details. That's already done. It is available through HPE GreenLake. So you can go and actually get it as a service in partnership with our customer, our friends here at VMware. And because if you're familiar and comfortable with all the things that HP Proliant has done from a security perspective, from a reliability perspective, trusted supply chain, all those sorts of things, you're getting all of that with this particular solution. >> Sumit Dhawan had a great quote on theCube just a hour or so ago. He said you have to be early to be first. Love that quote. Okay. So you were first, you were probably a little early, but do you have a lead? I know you're going to say yes. Okay. Let's just assume that okay. Relative to the competition, how do you know? How do you determine that? >> If we have a lead or not? >> Yeah, if you lead, if you're the best. >> We go to the source of the truth, which is our customers. >> And what do they tell you? What do you look at and say, okay, now, I mean, when you have that honest conversation and say, okay, we are, we're first, we're early, we're keeping our lead. What are the things that you look at, as indicators? >> I'll say it this way. We've been in a lot of businesses where we do compete head-to-head in a lot of places and we know how that sales process normally works. We're seeing a different motion from our customers. When we talk about HPE GreenLake, there's not a lot of back and forth on, okay, well let me go shop around. It is HP GreenLake, let's talk about how we actually build this solution. >> And I can tell you from a VMware perspective, our customers are asking us for this the other way around. So that's a great sign. Is that, Hey, we need to see this partnership come together in GreenLake. >> Yeah. Okay. So you would concur with that? >> Absolutely. So third party validation. >> From Switzerland. Yeah. >> Bring it with you over here. >> We're talking about this earlier on, I mean, of course with I mentioned earlier on there's some contractual things that you've got to get in place as you are going through this migration into Sasson subscription, et cetera. And so we are working as hard as we can to make sure, Hey, let's really get this contract in place as quickly as possible, it's what the customers are asking us. >> We've been talking about this for years, you know, see containers being so popular. Now, Kubernetes becoming that layer of bringing people to bringing things together. It's the old adage that Amazon used to coin and Andy Jassy, they do the undifferentiated, heavy lifting. A lot of that's now that's now cloud operations. Underneath is infrastructure's code to the developer, right. That's at scale. >> That's right. >> And so you got a lot of heavy lifting being done with GreenLake. Which is why there's no objections probably. >> Right absolutely. >> What's the choice. What do you even shop? >> Yeah. There's nothing to shop around. >> Yeah, exactly. And then we've, that is really icing on the cake that we've, we've been building for quite some time. There is an understanding in the market that what we do with our infrastructure is hardened from a reliability and quality perspective. Times are tough right now, supply chain issues, all that stuff, we've talked about it. But at HPE, we don't skimp on quality. We're going to spend the dollars and time on making sure we got reliability and security built in. It's really important to us. >> We get a great use case, the storage team, they were provisioning with containers. Storage is a service, instantly. We're seeing with you guys with VMware, your customers bringing in a lot of that into the mix as well. I got to ask. Cause every event we talk about AI and machine learning, automation and DevOps are now infiltrating in with the Ci/CD pipeline security and data become a big conversation. >> Agreed. >> Okay. So how do you guys look at that? Okay. You sold me on green. I've been a big fan from day one. Now it's got maturity on it. I know it's going to get a lot more headroom to do there. It's still a lot of work to do, but directionally it's pretty accurate. It's going to be going to be success. There's still concerns about security, the data layer. That's agnostic of environment, private cloud hybrid, public and edge. So that's important and security has got a huge service area. These are a work in progress. How do you guys view those? >> I think you've just hit the nail on the head. I mean, I was in the press and journalist meetings yesterday and our answer was exactly the same. There is still so much work that can be done here. And I don't think anybody is really emerging as a true leader. It's just a continuation of trying to get that right. Because it is what is the most important thing to our customers. And the industry is really sort of catching up to that. >> And when you start talking about privacy and when you... It's not just about company information, it's about individuals information. It's about information that if exposed actually could have real impact on people. So it's more than just an IT problem. It is actually, and from HP's perspective, security starts from when we're picking our suppliers for our components. There are processes that we put into our entire trusted supply chain from the factory on the way up. I liken it to my golf swing, my golf swinging. I slice, right lik you wouldn't believe. But when I go to the golf pros, they start me back at the mechanics, the foundational pieces, here's where the problems are and start working on that. So my view is our view is if your infrastructure is not secure, you're going to have troubles with security as you go further up. >> Stay in the sandbox, so to speak, they're driving range on the golf analogy there. I love that. Talk about supply chain security real quick. Because you mentioned supply chain on the hardware side, you're seeing a lot of open source and supply chain in software trusted software. How does GreenLake look at that? How do you guys view that piece of it? That's an important part. >> Yeah, security is one of the key pillars that we're actually driving as a company right now. As I said, it's important to our customers as they're making purchasing decisions. And we're looking at it from the infrastructure all the way up to the actual service itself. And that's the beauty of having something like HP GreenLake, we don't have to pick is the infrastructure or the middle where, or the top of stack application, we can look at all of it. Yeah. It's all of it. That matters. >> Question on the ecosystem posture, so, I remember when HP was one company and then the GSIs were a little weird with HP because of EDS, you know, had data protector. So we weren't really chatting up Veeam at the time. And as soon as the split happened, ecosystem exploded. Now you have a situation where your Broadcom is acquiring VMware. You guys big Broadcom customer, has your attitude changed or has it not because, oh, we meet where the customers are. You've always said that, but have you have leaned in more? I mean, culturally is HPE, HPE now saying, hmm, now we have some real opportunities to partner in new ways that we don't have to sleep with one eye open, maybe. >> So I would some first of all, VMware and HPE, we've got a variety of different partners, we always have. If well, before any Broadcom announcement came along. We've been working with a variety of partners and that hasn't changed and that hasn't changed. And if your question is, has our posture toward VMware changed that all the answers absolutely not. We believe in what VMware is doing. We believe in what our customers are doing with VMware, and we're going to continue to work with VMware and partner with you. >> And of course we had to spin out ourselves in November of last year, which I worked on the whole Dell, whole Dell piece. >> But, you still had the same chairman. >> But since then, I think what's really become very apparent. And it's not just with HPE, but with many of our partners, many of the OEM partners, the opportunity in front of us is vast. And we need to rely on each other to help us solve the customer problems that are out there. So there's a willingness to overlook some things that in the past may have been barriers. >> But it's important to note also that it's not that we have not had history, right? Over... We've got over 200,000 customers join. >> Hundreds of millions of dollars of business. >> 100,000, over 10,000 or a 100,000 channel partners that we have in common. Numerous , numerous... >> And independent of the whole Broadcom overhang there, there's the ecosystem floor. Yeah, the expo floor. I mean, it's vibrant. I mean, there's clearly a wave coming. Ricky, we talked about this briefly at HPE Discover. I want to get an update from your perspective, both of you, if you don't mind weighing in on this, clearly the wave we calling it super cloud. Cause it's not just, multi-cloud completely different looking successes, >> Smart Cloud. >> It's not just vendors. It's also the customers turning into clouds themselves. You look at Goldman Sachs. I think every vertical will have its own power law of cloud players in the future. We believe that to be true. We're still testing that assumption, but it's trending in when you got OPEX has to go to in fund statement. CapEx goes to thanks for the cloud. All that's good, but there's a wave coming and we're trying to identify it. What do you guys see as this wave cause beyond multi-cloud and the obvious nature of that will end up happening as a state and what happens beyond that interoperability piece? That's a whole nother story and that's what everyone's fighting for. But everyone out in that ecosystem, it's a big wave coming. They got their surfboards. They're ready to go. So what do you guys see? What is the next wave that everyone's jacked up about here? >> Well, I think the multi-cloud is obviously at the epicenter. If you look at the results that are coming in, a lot of our customers, this is what's leading the discussion. And now we're in a position where we've brought many companies over the last few years, they're starting to come to fruition. They're starting to play a role in how we're moving forward. Some of those are a bit more applicable to the commercial space. We're finding commercial customers are never bought from us before never hundreds and hundreds are coming through our partner networks every single quarter. So brand new to VMware, the trick then is how do you nurture them? How do you encourage them? >> So new logos are coming in? >> New logos are coming in all the time, all the time from across the ecosystem. It's not just the OEMs, it's all the way back. >> So the ecosystem's back for VMware. >> Unbelievably. So what are we doing to help that? There's two big things that we've announced in the recent weeks is that partner connect 2.0. When I talk to you about multi-cloud and multicardt the customers are doing, you see that trend. Four, five different separate clouds that we've got here. The next piece is that they're changing their business models with the partners. Their services is becoming more and more apparent, etc. And the use of other partners to do other services deployment or this stuff is becoming prevalent. Then you've got the distributors that I talked about were there. Then you route to market, then you route to business. So how do you encapsulate all of that and ensure your rewarding partners on all aspects of that? Whether it's deployment, whether it's test and debt, it's a points based system we've put in place now. >> It's a big pie. That's developing the market's getting bigger. >> It's getting so much bigger and then help. >> You agree obviously with that. >> Yeah, absolutely, in fact, I think for a long time we were asking the question of, is it going to be there or is it going to be here? Which was the wrong question now it's everything. Yes. And what I think that what we're seeing in the ecosystem is people are finding the spots where they're going play. Am I going to be on the edge? Am I going to be an analytics play? Am I going to be a cloud transition play? A lot of players are now emerging and saying, we now have a place, a part to play. And having that industry view, not just of a commercial customer at that level, but the two of us are looking at Telco, are looking at financial services, at healthcare, at manufacturing. How do these new ecosystem players fit into it? >> ... is lifting, everyone can see their position there. >> We're now being asked for simplicity and talk to me about partner profitability. How do I know where to focus my efforts? Am I've spread too thin? And my advice that a partner ecosystem out there is, Hey, let's pick out spots together. Let's really go to, and then strategic solutions that we were talking about is good example of that. >> Sounds like composability to me, but not to go back guys. Thanks for coming on. I think there's a big market there. I think the fog is lifted, people seeing their spot there's value there. Value creation equals reward. Yeah. Simplicity, ease of use. This is the new normal great job. Thanks for coming on sharing. Okay. Back live coverage after this short break with more day one coverage here from the blue set here in Moscone.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of VMware Explore '22, formerly VMworld. This is our 12th year covering it. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellente. Two sets, three days of wall-to-wall coverage. We're starting to get the execs rolling in from VMware. Sumit Dhawan, president of VMware's here. Great to see you. Great keynote, day one. >> Great to be here, John. Great to see you, Dave. Day one, super exciting. We're pumped. >> And you had no problem with the keynotes. We're back in person. Smooth as silk up there. >> We were talking about it. We had to like dust off a cobweb to make some of these inputs. >> It's not like riding a bike. >> No, it's not. We had about 40% of our agencies that we had to change out because they're no longer in business. So, I have to give kudos to the team who pulled it together. They did a fabulous job. >> You do a great check, great presentation. I know you had a lot to crack in there. Raghu set the table. I know this is for him, this was a big moment to lay out the narrative, address the Broadcom thing right out of the gate, wave from Hock Tan in the audience, and then got into the top big news. Still a lot of meat on the bone. You get up there, you got to talk about the use cases, vSphere 8, big release, a lot of stuff. Take us through the keynote. What was the important highlights for you to share, the folks watching that didn't see the keynote or wanted to get your perspective? >> Well, first of all, did any of you notice that Raghu was running on the stage? He did not do that in rehearsal. (John chuckles) I was a little bit worried, but he really did it. >> I said, I betcha that was real. (everyone chuckles) >> Anyways, the jokes aside, he did fabulous. Lays out the strategy. My thinking, as you said, was to first of all speak with their customers and explain how every enterprise is facing with this concept of cloud chaos that Raghu laid out and CVS Health story sort of exemplifies the situation that every customer is facing. They go in, they start with cloud first, which is needed, I think that's the absolutely right approach. Very quickly build out a model of getting a cloud ops team and a platform engineering team which oftentimes be a parallel work stream to a private cloud infrastructure. Great start. But as Roshan, the CIO at CVS Health laid out, there's an inflection point. And that's when you have to converge these because the use cases are where stakeholders, this is the lines of businesses, app developers, finance teams, and security teams, they don't need this stove piped information coming at 'em. And the converge model is how he opted to organize his team. So we called it a multi-cloud team, just like a workspace team. And listen, our commitment and innovations are to solve the problems of those teams so that the stakeholders get what they need. That's the rest of the keynote. >> Yeah, first of all, great point. I want to call out that inflection point comment because we've been reporting coming into VMworld with super cloud and other things across open source and down into the weeds and into the hood. The chaos is real. So, good call. I love how you guys brought that up there. But all industry inflection points, if you go back in history of the tech industry, at every single major inflection point, there was chaos, complexity, or an enemy proprietary. However you want to look at it, there was a situation where you needed to kind of reign in the chaos as Andy Grove would say. So we're at that inflection point, I think that's consistent. And also the ecosystem floor yesterday, the expo floor here in San Francisco with your partners, it was vibrant. They're all on this wave. There is a wave and an inflection point. So, okay. I buy that. So, if you buy the inflection point, what has to happen next? Because this is where we're at. People are feeling it. Some say, I don't have a problem but they're cut chaos such is the problem. So, where do you see that? How does VMware's team organizing in the industry and for customers specifically to solve the chaos, to reign it in and cross over? >> Yeah, you're a 100% right. Every inflection point is associated with some kind of a chaos that had to be reigned in. So we are focused on two major things right now which we have made progress in. And maybe third, we are still work in-progress. Number one is technology. Today's technology announcements are directly to address how that streamlining of chaos can be done through a cloud smart approach that we laid out. Our Aria, a brand new solution for management, significant enhancements to Tanzu, all of these for public cloud based workloads that also extend to private cloud. And then our cloud infrastructure with newer capabilities with AWS, Azure, as well as with new innovations on vSphere 8 and vSAN 8. And then last but not the least, our continuous automation to enable anywhere workspace. All these are simple innovation that have to address because without those innovations, the problem is that the chaos oftentimes is created because lack of technology and as a result structure has to be put in place because tooling and technology is not there. So, number one goal we see is providing that. Second is we have to be independent, provide support for every possible cloud but not without being a partner of theirs. That's not an easy thing to do but we have the DNA as a company, we have done that with data centers in the past, even though being part of Dell we did that in the data center in the past, we have done that in mobility. And so we have taken the challenge of doing that with the cloud. So we are continually building newer innovation and stronger and stronger partnerships with cloud provider which is the basis of our commercial relationships with Microsoft Azure too, where we have brought Azure VMware solution into VMware cloud universal. Again, that strengthens the value of us being neutral because it's very important to have a Switzerland party that can provide these multi-cloud solutions that doesn't have an agenda of a specific cloud, yet an ecosystem, or at least an influence with the ecosystem that can bring going forward. >> Okay, so technology, I get that. Open, not going to be too competitive, but more open. So the question I got to ask you is what is the disruptive enabler to make that happen? 'Cause you got customers, partners and team of VMware, what's the disruptive enabler that's going to get you to that level? >> Over the hump. I mean, listen, our value is this community. All this community has one of two paths to go. Either, they become stove piped into just the public-private cloud infrastructure or they step up as this convergence that's happening around them to say, "You know what? I have the solution to tame this multi-cloud complexity, to reign the chaos," as you mentioned because tooling and technologies are available. And I know they work with the ecosystem. And our objective is to bring this community to that point. And to me, that is the best path to overcome it. >> You are the connective tissue. I was able to sit into the analyst meeting today. You were sort of the proxy for CVS Health where you talked about the private that's where you started, the public cloud ops team, bringing that together. The platform is the glue. That is the connective tissue. That's where Tanzu comes in. That's where Aria comes in. And that is the disruptive technology which it's hard to build that. >> From a technology perspective, it's an enabler of something that has never been done before in that level of comprehensiveness, from a more of a infrastructure side thinking perspective. Yes, infrastructure teams have enabled self-service portals. Yes, infrastructure teams have given APIs to developers, but what we are enabling through Tanzu is completely next level where you have a lot richer experience for developers so that they never ever have to think about the infrastructure at all. Because even when you enable infrastructure as API, that's still an API of the infrastructure. We go straight to the application tier where they're just thinking about authorized set of microservices. Containers can be orchestrated and built automatically, shifting security left where we're truly checking them or enabling them to check the security vulnerabilities as they're developing the application, not going into the production when they have to touch the infrastructure. To me, that's an enabler of a special power that this new multi-cloud team can have across cloud which they haven't had in the past. >> Yeah, it's funny, John, I'd say very challenging technically. The challenge in 2010 was the software mainframe, remember the marketing people killed that term. >> Yeah, exactly. >> But you think about that. We're going to make virtualization and the overhead associated with that irrelevant. We're going to be able to run any workload and VMware achieved that. Now you're saying we run anything anywhere, any Kubernete, any container. >> That's the reality. That's the chaos. >> And the cloud and that's a new, real problem. Real challenging problem that requires serious engineering. >> Well, I mean it's aspirational, right? Let's get the reality, right? So true spanning cloud, not yet there. You guys, I think your vision is definitely right on in the sense that we'd like the chaos and multicloud's a reality. The question is AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, other clouds, they're not going to sit still. No one's going to let VMware just come up and take everything. You got to enable so the market- >> True, true. I don't think this is the case of us versus them because there is so much that they have to express in terms of the value of every cloud. And this happened in the case of, by the way, whether you go into infrastructure or even workspace solutions, as long as the richest of the experience and richest of the controls are provided, for their cloud to the developers that makes the adoption of their cloud simpler. It's a win-win for every party. >> That's the key. I think the simplest. So, I want to ask you, this comes up a lot and I love that you brought that up, simple and self-service has proven developers who are driving the change, cloud DevOps developers. They're driving the change. They're in charge more than ever. They want self-service, easier to deploy. I want a test, if I don't like it, I want to throw it away. But if I like something, I want to stick with it. So it's got to be self-service. Now that's antithetical to the old enterprise model of solve complexity with more complexity. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So the question for you is as the president of VMware, do you feel good that you guys are looking out over the landscape where you're riding into the valley of the future with the demand being automation, completely invisible, abstraction layer, new use case scenarios for IT and whatever IT becomes. Take us through your mindset there, because I think that's what I'm hearing here at this year, VMware Explorer is that you guys have recognized the shift in demographics on the developer side, but ops isn't going away either. They're connecting. >> They're connected. Yeah, so our vision is, if you think about the role of developers, they have a huge influence. And most importantly they're the ones who are driving innovation, just the amount of application development, the number of developers that have emerged, yet remains the scarcest resource for the enterprise are critical. So developers often time have taken control over decision on infrastructure and ops. Why? Because infrastructure and ops haven't shown up. Not because they like it. In fact, they hate it. (John chuckles) Developers like being developers. They like writing code. They don't really want to get into the day to day operations. In fact, here's what we see with almost all our customers. They start taking control of the ops until they go into production. And at that point in time, they start requesting one by one functions of ops, move to ops because they don't like it. So with our approach and this sort of, as we are driving into the beautiful valley of multi-cloud like you laid out, in our approach with the cross cloud services, what we are saying is that why don't we enable this new team which is a reformatted version of the traditional ops, it has the platform engineering in it, the key skill that enables the developer in it, through a platform that becomes an interface to the developers. It creates that secure workflows that developers need. So that developers think and do what they really love. And the infrastructure is seamless and invisible. It's bound to happen, John. Think about it this way. >> Infrastructure is code. >> Infrastructure has code, and even next year, it's invisible because they're just dealing with the services that they need. >> So it's self-service infrastructure. And then you've got to have that capability to simplified, I'll even say automated or computational governance and security. So Chris Wolf is coming on Thursday. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately I won't be here. And he's going to talk about all the future projects. 'Cause you're not done yet. The project narrows, it's kind of one of these boring, but important. >> Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the oven coming out. >> There's really critical projects coming down the pipeline that support this multi-cloud vision, is it's early days. >> Well, this is the thing that we were talking about. I want to get your thoughts on. And we were commenting on the keynote review, Hock Tan bought VMware. He's a lot more there than he thought. I mean, I got to imagine him sitting in the front row going there's some stuff coming out of the oven. I didn't even, might not have known. >> He'd be like, "Hmm, this extra value." (everyone chuckles) >> He's got to be pretty stoked, don't you think? >> He is, he is. >> There's a lot of headroom on the margin. >> I mean, independent to that, I think the strategy that he sees is something that's compelling to customers which is what, in my assessment, speaking with him, he bought VMware because it's strategic to customers and the strategic value of VMware becomes even higher as we take our multi-cloud portfolio. So it's all great. >> Well, plus the ecosystem is now re-energize. It's always been energized, but energized cuz it's sort of had to be, cuz it's such a strong- >> And there was the Dell history there too. >> But, yeah it was always EMC, and then Dell, and now it's like, wow, the ecosystem's- >> Really it's released almost. I like this new team, we've been calling this new ops kind of vibe going refactored ops, as you said, that's where the action's happening because the developers want to go faster. >> They want to go faster. >> They want to go fast cuz the velocity's paying off of them. They don't want to have to wait. They don't want security reviews. They want policy. They want some guardrails. Show me the track. >> That's it. >> And let me drive this car. >> That's it because I mean think about it, if you were a developer, listen, I've been a developer. I never really wanted to see how to operate the code in production because it took time away for developing. I like developing and I like to spend my time building the applications and that's the goal of Aria and Tanzu. >> And then I got to mention the props of seeing project Monterey actually come out to fruition is huge because that's the future of computing architecture. >> I mean at this stage, if a customer from here on is modernizing their infrastructure and they're not investing in a holistic new infrastructure from a hardware and software perspective, they're missing out an opportunity on leveraging the numbers that we were showing, 20% increase in calls. Why would you not just make that investment on both the hardware and the software layer now to get the benefits for the next five-six years. >> You would and if I don't have to make any changes and I get 20% automatically. And the other thing, I don't know if people really appreciate the new curve that the Silicon industry is on. It blows away the history of Moore's law which was whatever, 35-40% a year, we're talking about 100% a year price performance or performance improvements. >> I think when you have an inflection point as we said earlier, there's going to be some things that you know is going to happen, but I think there's going to be a lot that's going to surprise people. New brands will emerge, new startups, new talent, new functionality, new use cases. So, we're going to watch that carefully. And for the folks watching that know that theCUBE's been 12 years with covering VMware VMworld, now VMware Explore, we've kind of met everybody over the years, but I want to point out a little nuance, Raghu thing in the keynote. During the end, before the collective responsibility sustainment commitment he had, he made a comment, "As proud as we are," which is a word he used, there's a lot of pride here at VMware. Raghu kind of weaved that in there, I noticed that, I want to call that out there because Raghu's proud. He's a proud product guy. He said, "I'm a product guy." He's delivering keynote. >> Almost 20 years. >> As proud as we are, there's a lot of pride at VMware, Sumit, talk about that dynamic because you mentioned customers, your customer is not a lot of churn. They've been there for a long time. They're embedded in every single company out there, pretty much VMware is in every enterprise, if not all, I mean 99%, whatever percentage it is, it's huge penetration. >> We are proud of three things. It comes down to number one, we are proud of our innovations. You can see it, you can see the tone from Raghu or myself, or other executives changes with excitement when we're talking about our technologies, we're just proud. We're just proud of it. We are a technology and product centric company. The second thing that sort of gets us excited and be proud of is exactly what you mentioned, which is the customers. The customers like us. It's a pleasure when I bring Roshan on stage and he talks about how he's expecting certain relationship and what he's viewing VMware in this new world of multi-cloud, that makes us proud. And then third, we're proud of our talent. I mean, I was jokingly talking to just the events team alone. Of course our engineers do amazing job, our sellers do amazing job, our support teams do amazing job, but we brought this team and we said, "We are going to get you to run an event after three years from not they doing one, we're going to change the name on you, we're going to change the attendees you're going to invite, we're going to change the fact that it's going to be new speakers who have never been on the stage and done that kind of presentation. >> You're also going to serve a virtual audience. >> And we're going to have a virtual audience. And you know what? They embraced it and they surprised us and it looks beautiful. So I'm proud of the talent. >> The VMware team always steps up. You never slight it, you've got great talent over there. The big thing I want to highlight as we end this day, the segment, and I'll get your thoughts and reactions, Sumit, is again, you guys were early on hybrid. We have theCUBE tape to go back into the video data lake and find the word hybrid mentioned 2013, 2014, 2015. Even when nobody was talking about hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Multicloud, Raghu, I talked to Raghu in 2016 when he did the Pat Gelsinger, I mean Raghu, Pat and Andy Jassy. >> Yeah. >> When that cloud thing got cleared up, he cleared that up. He mentioned multicloud, even then 2016, so this is not new. >> Yeah. >> You had the vision, there's a lot of stuff in the oven. You guys make announcements directionally, and then start chipping away at it. Now you got Broadcom buys VMware, what's in the oven? How much goodness is coming out that's like just hitting the fruits are starting to bear on the tree. There's a lot of good stuff and just put that, contextualize and scale that for us. What's in the oven? >> First of all, I think the vision, you have to be early to be first and we believe in it. Okay, so that's number one. Now having said that what's in the oven, you would see us actually do more controls across cloud. We are not done on networking side. Okay, we announced something as project Northstar with networking portfolio, that's not generally available. That's in the oven. We are going to come up with more capability on supporting any Kubernetes on any cloud. We did some previews of supporting, for example, EKS. You're going to see more of those cluster controls across any Kubernetes. We have more work happening on our telco partners for enablement of O-RAN as well as our edge solutions, along with the ecosystem. So more to come on those fronts. But they're all aligned with enabling customers multi-cloud through these five cross cloud services. They're all really, some of them where we have put a big sort of a version one of solution out there such as Aria continuation, some of them where even the version one's not out and you're going to see that very soon. >> All right. Sumit, what's next for you as the president? You're proud of your team, we got that. Great oven description of what's coming out for the next meal. What's next for you guys, the team? >> I think for us, two things, first of all, this is our momentum season as we call it. So for the first time, after three years, we are now being in, I think we've expanded, explored to five cities. So getting this orchestrated properly, we are expecting nearly 50,000 customers to be engaging in person and maybe a same number virtually. So a significant touchpoint, cuz we have been missing. Our customers have departed their strategy formulation and we have departed our strategy formulation. Getting them connected together is our number one priority. And number two, we are focused on getting better and better at making customers successful. There is work needed for us. We learn, then we code it and then we repeat it. And to me, those are the two key things here in the next six months. >> Sumit, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Thanks for your valuable time, sharing what's going on. Appreciate it. >> Always great to have chatting. >> Here with the president, the CEO's coming up next in theCUBE. Of course, we're John and Dave. More coverage after the short breaks, stay with us. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hello, everyone welcome to "theCUBE's" live coverage here in San Francisco, California for VMware Explore not VMworld, it's VMware Explore. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE" with Dave Vellante. We're here with two sets. 12th year, Dave, covering VMworld, now VMware Explore, what a journey? I had a little reminiscing from Paul Maritz in 2010, who predicted the future but the timing was off. Raghu predicting the future, but is his timing right with multi-cloud or super-cloud? We're going to get into it. We got three days of wall to wall CUBE coverage, two sets. All the top execs from VMware coming on, including the CEO Raghu himself, Vittorio, Kit Colbert, the whole kit and caboodle of the executive group to talk about the future of VMware, where it's going, and of course the appearance of Hock Tan here from Broadcom, Dave, made an appearance. Michael Dell was also in presence. I get the vibe that there's something going on with Broadcom and VMware beyond just the acquisition. So a lot of people are curious. This event again is notable and historic from the sense of it's VMware Explore not VMworld, so they changed the name, and Broadcom's intent, and they're going to be buying VMworld. Dave, the keynote was anticipated by all, how it was going to go down, what was going to be said. Raghu set the table, I got a ton of notes, I know you do. What's your take? >> Well, you have to start with the Broadcom acquisition. You're right, Hock Tan was in the audience, he stood up, he got a little clap. >> Golf clap. >> He's paying $60 billion for VMware, he better be able to be recognized. And he was here yesterday with Michael Dell at the executive sessions. And their purpose I'm sure, they didn't let us in, but I'm sure the purpose was to make sure that customers were calm, they were comfortable with the direction. Of course, the narrative coming out of VMware is that, hey, they're investigating, they're going deep into our portfolio, and they like what they see, it's going to be all good, it's not going to be like the CA acquisition and de-levering and all that stuff. I still stand by what I wrote in my breaking analysis back in May. The fact is, Broadcom has promised $8.5 billion in EBITDA within three years. That's the only way they get there, is to cut, so that's going to happen. But the interesting dynamic in the market, I don't know if you've noticed this, VMware stock is trading at a 20% discount to what Broadcom is paying for it. So there's a big amount of fluff, if you want to do some arbitration. And I think it's due to the fact that it's a stock and a cash deal, it's a combination deal, and it's not going to close for a year. So there's maybe some skepticism around that. But that was an interesting dynamic. The keynote we'll get into it, but it's all around multi-cloud and what we call super-cloud. >> I have my conspiracy theories on Broadcom, actually they make chips. Looking at all the waves right now in the technology industry, silicon is hot, anyone who's doing custom silicon and putting software on the chip, making purpose built vertical applications is seeing performance gains in cloud and in these applications. So one, I'm really excited by the dots connecting there. But also the VMware story, Dave, is pretty interesting in the sense that timing's everything, the Broadcom acquisition, EBITDA focus might drive behavior. But notable for VMware, is Raghu has been on this vision for years. I remember in 2016 when I interviewed him with Andy Jassy, who was then the CEO of AWS, they had moved everything to Amazon Web Services. And that was the beginning of the vision of multi-cloud and cloud-native. VMware invested a ton, and so we're seeing some fruit come off the tree. If you will, bearing some fruit from that VMware investment in cloud-native across the board which was their bet prior to Broadcom buying them out. So the question is, does Broadcom harvest that, continue that nurturing of that "plantation of goodness" that could come out of that VMware? And again, it's probability, it's not guaranteed. Commentary on Twitter is pretty heavy on, can they win the Devs? Can the new Ops bringing around the front? So, VMware's and Broadcom in a tough position, they bought more than they thought in my opinion. And I think a lot of people are saying, does Broadcom recognize the strategic value of what's coming out of the oven, so to speak, or what's blowing off the tree from VMware? And is it real? That is the number one question. I talk to people in the hallway, that's what they're saying. They want to know what's going to happen with what's around the corner, that's on top of mind of everybody. >> It's a really important question because VMware's future is multi-cloud management, what we call super-cloud. And without Tanzu, and I speculated that Tanzu was probably going to be under the microscope and potentially on the chopping block because they spend a lot of money marketing it, but they're probably not today getting a lot of returns. But without Tanzu, without a cross-cloud PaaS we sometimes call a super PaaS. their strategy doesn't work, it basically fails. And I think what a lot of people are missing, and I saw you chime in on Twitter, is can they win the Devs? Can they win the Devs? This is table stakes. If you don't have a cross-cloud PaaS, and it's really about not necessarily just the Devs, it's about the ops, right? Because now it's about security. Yes, shift left, but shield right. But the DevOps team, the Ops team needs consistency. It's like Adrian Cockcroft says, the Devs, they love to get married, the Ops, they got to clean up after the divorce. And so they need standard- >> You're implying that they'll use any tool for the job and not really worry about lock in. And I think today on the keynote, Deshaun was up there who submitted a comment, "You kids have it easy these days." Implying us old guys, when we coded, you had to do everything yourself. Kelsey Hightower mentioned her support pack desktop edition. The old days when had to build everything by hand, now it's all automated, all goodness. But in all seriousness, the focus there was DevOps has won, DevOps is what the developers are doing. The developers are in the clear right now, as far as I'm concerned. They're sitting on the beach right now, sunglasses on, sun shining, everything's shift left, CI/CD pipeline, cloud-native goodness. If you're a dev, things are much rosier than an Ops person. So DevOps is developer, security and DataOps, is where the action is. So it's not so much IT operations as it is security and data leveling up to the velocity demand of developers and also ease of use. So self-service in the motion of coding, in the pipelining, that's what the developers have to have. And if people don't build that experience from the upside, the new ops is not going to enable the develop, it won't be adopted in my opinion. >> You mentioned Paul Maritz before, his whole thing was any workload, any cloud, the software mainframe, they're talking about any Kubernetes, any cloud. And we got to go through some of the announcements real quick here. VMware Aria is the new multi-cloud management platform. That is the fundamental strategy for going cross-cloud or what we call super-cloud. The vSphere and vSAN 8 are big deals. And as relates to compute with vSphere, they're really pushing that whole DPU. You might remember Project Monterey. Well, Project Monterey is essentially like AWS Nitro, it's the future of computing architecture seven years after AWS introduced it. So AWS has a huge lead here. But it's critical that a company like VMware is able to offer that capability with XPU optionality, GPU, CPU, Arm based, Pensando capabilities, eventually NPUs, other capabilities to bring in and support new workloads, new data driven workloads. So the lot of talk about the whole DPU thing. As I mentioned, Tanzu new version of Tanzu, they talked about edge. They're basically bringing VMware to the edge with an eventual consistency model. >> Hold on, the vSphere thing, just to jump in there real quick. I always thought that that'd be higher up in the keynote. Clearly in the keynote, they flexed their cloud-native positioning, they had to address the Broadcom thing, talk about modern applications. So it felt like they were selling the dream on the front end. And they buried the lead in my opinion, which is vSphere 8. They don't do a lot of vSphere 8 announcements. If you look at the history of VMworld, every few years they got a new release. This was packed with a lot of goodness. And I thought they'd buried that in the keynote. >> I don't know, Raghu mentioned it. Yeah, they had a lot to cover. And then the other thing was they announced support for Red Hat OpenShift. So everybody's like, "Ooh, wow." And then Tanzu for all the Kubernetes versions from the cloud guys. So a lot of announcements, you got to always give VMware props. It's not like they stopped engineering, they have a great engineering culture. And so it's nice to see Project Monterey in particular, go from R&D to actual product. And so we like to see that. >> Even towards the end, now that we're doing the keynote review, Raghu said, "As proud as we are," this is when they started talking about the sustainability, implying they're real proud engineering, and that's a good call out there. I think that's what were trying to get across to Hock Tan, who was sitting in the front row. But Dave, in terms of keynote, my analysis is clear. Raghu was nervous, you can tell. But he's a product guy, he even said that on stage. He set the table at the beginning, I thought really well with modern applications. He had to address the name change, and I thought that was interesting. He actually said, "We built a community with VMworld, but now with multi-cloud, we're going to recall it Explore." Not sure I agree with that. I think VMworld community is still vibrant, and that's why they're here. So I thought that was nice, the way he balance that out, the messaging is good, the graphics and the branding of Explore is world class, I think it's phenomenal. I'm not a big fan of the name change, but I never go well with change there. Hock Tan didn't speak, he did stand up and wave. >> There's no way he's going to get up to speak. >> He didn't speak. So I thought that was interesting front end, so they got that right out of the way. And absolutely you saying last night. And then they got into this digitally smart concept, which I thought was on point. Did not like the great replatforming message. I'm not a big fan of that because it reminded me of the great resignation. And I think there's going to be a lot of memes on that. So not a big fan of the great replatforming. I did like the Cloud Universal pitch. But this whole multi-cloud pitch seems to me, and I want to get your thoughts on this, is that that's what it reminded me of, Paul Maritz. So when Raghu is clearly betting the ranch on multi-cloud, the question is timing. Paul Maritz in 2010 here at VMworld Moscone, he laid out the vision, he was right. But timing was off, the top of the stack didn't materialize. But at the end of the day, ended up being the right architecture. Is VMware too early with multi-cloud, Dave? And that's the question, that's the question on the table. >> Well, so a couple things. So Maritz, the one mistake Maritz made was he really tried to go into apps, remember? So now at least I think Raghu, the current VMware thinking is, we're going to enable apps to be developed. And that is the right thinking. Are they too early or too late with multi-cloud? I think technically it just wasn't feasible, the customers weren't ready for it. VMware moves at the speed of the CIO we like to say. So I think the timing is actually really good because the technical capabilities are now there. You've got to have across-cloud paths, which Tanzu is about. And I think Tanzu was too immature before. They've got the pieces on the DPU side. And the other thing about the timing is now with Broadcom acquiring VMware, the whole non Dell ecosystem has got to be a lot happier. NetApp, guys like that, Cisco. >> Why is that? >> Because Dell, their thumb on the scale, they had the thing rigged, Dell was first in line for everything. When EMC owned VMware, that was the case. But they were required about it, Dell made no concessions. And they just came out and said, "We are going to be VMware first, we are the preferred partner, we do more business with anybody." They really drove a truck through that. And I think it caused a lot of the ecosystem to pull back, like HPE and others to say, "Okay, we're going to find some alternatives here." Now they can really lean in. It's like when HP broken two, that really changed the ecosystem posture with HPE. This is like that, but times 10. >> What did you think about the ecosystem floor last night? When I did a walk of the floor, I thought it was very vibrant, it was not a ghost town at all. >> No, not at all, we saw Alibaba Cloud was there, we saw a lot of- >> AWS. >> Smaller companies >> Microsoft. >> And so I thought it was better than I thought it would be. There's probably what, 7,000 people here I would say? So well off from the 15,000 pre-COVID highs, but still very robust, it's a good crowd. People are excited to be back in person obviously. And I think the messaging was right, John. I think cross-cloud, multi-cloud, super-cloud, that is the future. Well, David Floid took a stab at it and said, "I think it's going to be $100 billion market by the end of the decade." >> Super-cloud is a thing for sure. And I think that came out in Aria announcement, which was basically a rebranding. It's not a new product, essentially it's a cobble together management platform. I thought the Cloud Universal notes here were interesting. The Cloud Universal is the commercial cloud smart component. Meaning they're trying to make that the frame, Dave, for the hyperscalers to come in to a de facto consortium movement. I feel like that's next here. If this Cloud Universal could become the super-cloud consortium, that might give them a better shot. The ecosystem is buzzing, attendance is strong. It's interesting a lot of people were speculating, will this be an event? I thought they did a great job and I thought they came through well with this. >> You were saying about consortium, because have to have the cloud guys in any consortium. But is any one cloud going to drive it? VMware could be- >> AWS >> Could be the driver. >> I'm thinking if I had to make a prediction, looking at what I just saw in the keynote, we'll see what the VMware execs say, If I had to make a guess, I think you're going to have customers, "Let's still double down on VMware stuff." They're going to settle into vSphere and networking compute and storage, the normal stuff that they've got, the software to find data center core as a cloud operational platform. And then you're going to see a lot more AWS migration. You might see that if Broadcom doesn't nurture the fruit coming off the tree, as we mentioned earlier, I think you might see people go more cloud-native. But I think VMware's prepared for that with the hybrid. So it's going to be very interesting to see. I think the winners coming out of this will be AWS, maybe a little bit of trickle into Azure, Alibaba mostly for the European, I mean the China side. But I don't see them playing. Google is a wild card, we'll see it from them. >> I think the other big thing about the timing, to your earlier point is, VMware used to go to market with very bespoke, We got vSAN, we got NSX, we got vSphere, and now they're trying to bring that together. And essentially remember, they used to go to market and say, "Okay, hey, your ELA is up, time to renew." And they're talking to the wrong people. So now they're going forth with the Azure service model, they're going to move to a subscription model. And I think the timing is right for that. I would've liked to see it a little bit before hand, maybe pre COVID would have been better timing. But I think technically, the time is right now for that. >> And I think looking at the acquisition, speculating on that, I think let's discuss how we see things, how they might move forward. Again, we'll ask the guests as much as best as we can and the best they could answer. But let's take this forward. Okay, based upon what I'm seeing here, if I'm Hock Tan in the audience, I'm saying to myself, "Okay, I got more here than I thought I was buying." Maybe I thought I was getting some great EBITDA. I wonder if his outlook changed on how he goes to market with the new VMware post acquisition. So that means in the around February timeframe, I would probably, if I was advising him to say, "Okay, let's keep it as is, let's not do the cut, cut, cut. Maybe trim a little bit here and there." But for the most part, he's got the solid customer base and he's going to have to keep the event. >> Here's the problem with that. They have a very high do-say ratio. They do what they say they're going to do. And as a result, they've promised 8.5 billion in EBITDA within three years out of VMware. And they return 50% of their free cash flow to investors. If they break that promise, their stock will get crushed. I don't think they're going to break that promise. So I think they're going to run. That's something I believe in their playbook that they're not going to change. Now, could they get there without massive cuts? I think it's going to be hard. Can they get there with price increases? Yes. And better efficiency, yes. But they don't have a lot of go to market synergies, John. Broadcom doesn't have a big sales force that they can say, "Okay, we're going to fire all the VMware sales force and you're going to go to market through our channel." Like Oracle would do with their big sales force or a Dell would do with an acquisition, they can't. And so I just don't see how they're going to around it. The only other thing I would say is, to me, I thought the application development piece, the Tanzu piece was very appropriate. And I think they got it. Whether or not they're going to succeed there, we can debate that. But I thought what was missing was there wasn't enough, in my opinion, on their security posture, their security strategy. I thought they gave it lip service with, "Oh yeah, we're going to shift left and dev security, et cetera." They did not go in depth. I think when you talk to someone like Tom Gillis, who really can go deep, I think talking about Barry and the lead, that was not, security is the number one issue of CIOs, CSO. >> Data and security >> At boards, it's number one. And data is the second thing. And those two stories in the keynote where quasi non-existent or/and weak. >> Again, the reason why I believe, and you're discussing it publicly at a high level, is super-cloud is real because it's not just SaaS on cloud, it's hybrid, it's DevOps, it's developer. And security and data operations are just absolutely now leveling up, and the edge is a complete wild card. We met a company last night, they're doing the edge cloud. The edge is going to open up all kinds of new use cases and challenges. And that's on the DataOps, data security side. DevOps, IT operations is already in the dev cycle. If companies aren't doing that, in my opinion, they're not really doing it right. So I think it'll shift to security and Ops and DataOps, that's going to be the action. In the cloud operational framework, that's super-cloud. To me, if I'm Hock Tan, I'm saying, "VMworld, VMware Explore, VMware has to be a core component of super-cloud of the future. Not multi-cloud just a state." I think multi-cloud will be a description of a state, of an architecture, and an outcome, but that's not super-cloud, that's not a functioning operating system, that's not a functioning business driven technology. So I think VMware has the opportunity. So I look at that and say, I got cheap options all the way up to the top of the stack. And super-cloud paths layer, as you describe, that I think is the way to go. >> When you think about how VMware got here, VMware was a $13 billion trailing 12 month revenue company. There aren't a lot of $13 billion software companies. And the way VMware got here, is through great software engineering. They identified problems that the customers had and they went and solved them. They did it with virtualization, they did it with private cloud, they figured out their public cloud strategy. So I think the question for Broadcom is going to be okay, how fast can we monetize that engineering? Can we turn that engineering R&D into dollars? And how fast can we do that? They have two choices in my opinion, keep innovating, which of course we hope that's the case, or act like a private equity firm and just squeeze as much cash out of VMware as possible. Which I don't think would be the right strategy because eventually that says, okay, what's going to happen to Broadcom? How are they going to continue to grow? Are they're going to have to just keep growing through acquisitions? So I think R&D is a really good spend when it's VMware. >> And I think as we wrap up our keynote analysis, one of the things that's going to come out of this as the conversation, no doubt in my mind will be, VMware isn't CA. And the question is, does Broadcom go off their playbook with VMware because of the fact that you look at the sponsorships for the show, we got a robust set of sponsorships for "theCUBE." With two sets, we're booked, fully loaded. Conversation's high, the floor is all about next level cloud operations. This is not a dying market, this is a growth wave coming. So the question, as super-cloud becomes that growth, and everyone's talking about super-cloud there. Some people who don't like the name, which is good, keep grace debate. But there's no doubt that that next wave is the super-cloud philosophy, the super-cloud mindset and architecture, and development environment. And we've documented that on supercloud.world if anyone's interested. But that wave is coming, and you can see it on the floor. Look at the sponsors, look at what people are talking about, Dave. This is not like Broadcom buying VMware and tucking it under and saying, "Okay, hope we can service the customer." There's a real market growth here story. So the question is, what do you do with that? >> Well, so you start with the base. VMware is a very good platform. The reason why they don't have a ton of competition and the reason why, okay, Nutanix can maybe trickle some away, but VMware is really good, it works, it's stable, it recovers from failures, it's got a super strong ecosystem. So you start by building there and then you identify the places where you can spend a dollar and make it 10. >> Well, I was very excited that when we had our super-cloud event, which was a virtual event as a test, we had great VMware support. And a lot of the catalog sessions up here, on Moscone West, where we're sitting, upstairs is all the sessions, they're crowded. And they overlay, Dave, with our narrative and the industry narrative. On the influencer side, you're starting to see the influencers meeting our editorial and pursuing a super-cloud with VMware and their ecosystem. Kind of agreeing super-cloud is real. And I think that is an important note because just last December, when we coined the term at Reinvent, I think it was Reinvent look what's happened. I want to get your thoughts and your reaction to why super-cloud has got so much traction, it's a great buzz with the name. But why is it that our super-cloud, the VMware, and the ecosystem are all aligning with this? Why do you think that's happening? Why do you think that the momentum is accelerating? >> The reason is that, as everybody knows, organizations have multiple clouds, it's a function of shadow Devs, M&A. And so they end up with all these different clouds, all these different projects, different primitives, different APIs, different tool sets. And they called it cloud chaos today. It's accurate, it is cloud chaos. So what's the problem with that? Well, that makes it harder to secure, it makes it harder to govern, it makes it harder to share data, it creates data silos. What's the answer? Well, if you can create a layer that's an abstraction layer that simplifies all that cross cloud data sharing and development and have a consistent set of APIs through a PaaS layer, we call it super PaaS and you are going to have a metadata intelligence that says, "Okay, I'm going to put this here or put that there. And I'm going to deal with latency, I'm going to optimize for whatever purpose, data sharing, or performance or whatever it is." You're going to solve a lot of problems. And you're going to make the CIO's life easier so that they can invest in their own business and their digital transformation and their digital strategy. So that's why people agree. They might not agree with the name, but they certainly agree with the concept of that abstraction layer. >> The name is certainly a better name than multi-cloud, multi-cloud sounds broken. But I think CIOs and CXOs, CISO, CSOs have to get buy-in from their teams. The organic dev relationship with Ops and SecOps and DataOps has to be symbiotic, not conflicting. And I love the chaos story because as Andy Grove, the legend at Intel once said, "Let chaos reign and then reign in the chaos." >> Chaos is cash. >> So in any innovation inflection point, chaos becomes the complexity, abstraction layers, and or innovation takes that complexity away. This is the formula for success. And I think VMware is right in the middle of it. And I think if I'm looking at VMware right now, I'm saying, hey, reign in that chaos right now and you win. So chaos is not a bad thing if you can reign it in, Dave. >> And that's what they've done. You think about what they did with virtualization, it was chaotic, it was wasteful. I think of what they did with private cloud. They said, "Hey IT guys, we're going to help you not get cloudified. We're going to cloudify your presence on-prem and not just throw everything into the cloud." They did a great job there. And now it's all about multi-cloud. >> Well, we're going to reign in the chaos, extract the signal from the noise. Super CUBE here at super-cloud event VMware Explore. Dave, great to kick it off again. Again, 12th year of CUBE coverage. It seems like a lifetime, Dave. Just yesterday we were 2010 >> Amazing, right. We've been in Moscone South, we've been in North, we've been in Las Vegas. Now we're here West, first time in west. >> Some of these developers were in elementary school when we started "theCUBE" here, I was just feeling old relics. Anyway, we're going to bring more action, three days of coverage, thecube.net, check it out. Join our community, join the conversation. As the influences are coming more onto the market, you're seeing a lot more conversations on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on the internet, check it out. Join the conversation. I'm John Furrier and Dave Vellante. We'll be back with more coverage here in San Francisco after this break. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Organizations have considerable room to improve their performance without making expensive changes to their talent, their structure, or their fundamental business model. You don't need a slew of consultants to tell you what to do. You already know. What you need is to immediately ratchet up expectations, energy, urgency, and intensity. You have to fight mediocrity every step of the way. Amp it up and the results will follow. This is the fundamental premise of a hard-hitting new book written by Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake, and published earlier this year. It's called "Amp It Up, Leading for Hypergrowth "by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, "and Elevating Intensity." Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. At Snowflake Summit last month, I was asked to interview Frank on stage about his new book. I've read it several times. And if you haven't read it, you should. Even if you have read it, in this Breaking Analysis, we'll dig deeper into the book and share some clarifying insights and nuances directly from Slootman himself from my one-on-one conversation with him. My first question to Slootman was why do you write this book? Okay, it's kind of a common throwaway question. And how the heck did you find time to do it? It's fairly well-known that a few years ago, Slootman put up a post on LinkedIn with the title Amp It Up. It generated so much buzz and so many requests for Frank's time that he decided that the best way to efficiently scale and share his thoughts on how to create high-performing companies and organizations was to publish a book. Now, he wrote the book during the pandemic. And I joked that they must not have Netflix in Montana where he resides. In a pretty funny moment, he said that writing the book was easier than promoting it. Take a listen. >> Denise, our CMO, you know, she just made sure that this process wasn't going to. It was more work for me to promote this book with all these damn podcasts and other crap, than actually writing the book, you know. And after a while, I was like I'm not doing another podcast. >> Now, the book gives a lot of interesting background information on Slootman's career and what he learned at various companies that he led and participated in. Now, I'm not going to go into most of that today, which is why you should read the book yourself. But Slootman, he's become somewhat of a business hero to many people, myself included. Leaders like Frank, Scott McNealy, Jayshree Ullal, and my old boss, Pat McGovern at IDG, have inspired me over the years. And each has applied his or her own approach to building cultures and companies. Now, when Slootman first took over the reins at Snowflake, I published a Breaking Analysis talking about Snowflake and what we could expect from the company now that Slootman and CFO Mike Scarpelli were back together. In that post, buried toward the end, I referenced the playbook that Frank used at Data Domain and ServiceNow, two companies that I followed quite closely as an analyst, and how it would be applied at Snowflake, that playbook if you will. Frank reached out to me afterwards and said something to the effect of, "I don't use playbooks. "I am a situational leader. "Playbooks, you know, they work in football games. "But in the military, they teach you "situational leadership." Pretty interesting learning moment for me. So I asked Frank on the stage about this. Here's what he said. >> The older you get, the more experience that you have, the more you become a prisoner of your own background because you sort of think in terms of what you know as opposed to, you know, getting outside of what you know and trying to sort of look at things like a five-year-old that has never seen this before. And then how would you, you know, deal with it? And I really try to force myself into I've never seen this before and how do I think about it? Because at least they're very different, you know, interpretations. And be open-minded, just really avoid that rinse and repeat mentality. And you know, I've brought people in from who have worked with me before. Some of them come with me from company to company. And they were falling prey to, you know, rinse and repeat. I would just literally go like that's not what we want. >> So think about that for a moment. I mean, imagine coming in to lead a new company and forcing yourself and your people to forget what they know that works and has worked in the past, put that aside and assess the current situation with an open mind, essentially start over. Now, that doesn't mean you don't apply what has worked in the past. Slootman talked to me about bringing back Scarpelli and the synergistic relationship that they have and how they build cultures and the no BS and hard truth mentality they bring to companies. But he bristles when people ask him, "What type of CEO are you?" He says, "Do we have to put a label on it? "It really depends on the situation." Now, one of the other really hard-hitting parts of the book was the way Frank deals with who to keep and who to let go. He uses the Volkswagen tagline of drivers wanted. He says in his book, in companies there are passengers and there are drivers, and we want drivers. He said, "You have to figure out really quickly "who the drivers are and basically throw the wrong people "off the bus, keep the right people, bring in new people "that fit the culture and put them "in the right seats on the bus." Now, these are not easy decisions to make. But as it pertains to getting rid of people, I'm reminded of the movie "Moneyball." Art Howe, the manager of the Oakland As, he refused to play Scott Hatteberg at first base. So the GM, Billy Bean played by Brad Pitt says to Peter Brand who was played by Jonah Hill, "You have to fire Carlos Pena." Don't learn how to fire people. Billy Bean says, "Just keep it quick. "Tell him he's been traded and that's it." So I asked Frank, "Okay, I get it. "Like the movie, when you have the wrong person "on the bus, you just have to make the decision, "be straightforward, and do it." But I asked him, "What if you're on the fence? "What if you're not completely sure if this person "is a driver or a passenger, if he or she "should be on the bus or not on the bus? "How do you handle that?" Listen to what he said. >> I have a very simple way to break ties. And when there's doubt, there's no doubt, okay? >> When there's doubt, there's no doubt. Slootman's philosophy is you have to be emphatic and have high conviction. You know, back to the baseball analogy, if you're thinking about taking the pitcher out of the game, take 'em out. Confrontation is the single hardest thing in business according to Slootman but you have to be intellectually honest and do what's best for the organization, period. Okay, so wow, that may sound harsh but that's how Slootman approaches it, very Belichickian if you will. But how can you amp it up on a daily basis? What's the approach that Slootman takes? We got into this conversation with a discussion about MBOs, management by objective. Slootman in his book says he's killed MBOs at every company he's led. And I asked him to explain why. His rationale was that individual MBOs invariably end up in a discussion about relief of the MBO if the person is not hitting his or her targets. And that detracts from the organizational alignment. He said at Snowflake everyone gets paid the same way, from the execs on down. It's a key way he creates focus and energy in an organization, by creating alignment, urgency, and putting more resources into the most important things. This is especially hard, Slootman says, as the organization gets bigger. But if you do approach it this way, everything gets easier. The cadence changes, the tempo accelerates, and it works. Now, and to emphasize that point, he said the following. Play the clip. >> Every meeting that you have, every email, every encounter in the hallway, whatever it is, is an opportunity to amp things up. That's why I use that title. But do you take that opportunity? >> And according to Slootman, if you don't take that opportunity, if you're not in the moment, amping it up, then you're thinking about your golf game or the tennis match that's going on this weekend or being out on your boat. And to the point, this approach is not for everyone. You're either built for it or you're not. But if you can bring people into the organization that can handle this type of dynamic, it creates energy. It becomes fun. Everything moves faster. The conversations are exciting. They're inspiring. And it becomes addictive. Now let's talk about priorities. I said to Frank that for me anyway, his book was an uncomfortable read. And he was somewhat surprised by that. "Really," he said. I said, "Yeah. "I mean, it was an easy read but uncomfortable "because over my career, I've managed thousands of people, "not tens of thousands but thousands, "enough to have to take this stuff very seriously." And I found myself throughout the book, oh, you know, on the one hand saying to myself, "Oh, I got that right, good job, Dave." And then other times, I was thinking to myself, "Oh wow, I probably need to rethink that. "I need to amp it up on that front." And the point is to Frank's leadership philosophy, there's no one correct way to approach all situations. You have to figure it out for yourself. But the one thing in the book that I found the hardest was Slootman challenged the reader. If you had to drop everything and focus on one thing, just one thing, for the rest of the year, what would that one thing be? Think about that for a moment. Were you able to come up with that one thing? What would happen to all the other things on your priority list? Are they all necessary? If so, how would you delegate those? Do you have someone in your organization who can take those off your plate? What would happen if you only focused on that one thing? These are hard questions. But Slootman really forces you to think about them and do that mental exercise. Look at Frank's body language in this screenshot. Imagine going into a management meeting with Frank and being prepared to share all the things you're working on that you're so proud of and all the priorities you have for the coming year. Listen to Frank in this clip and tell me it doesn't really make you think. >> I've been in, you know, on other boards and stuff. And I got a PowerPoint back from the CEO and there's like 15 things. They're our priorities for the year. I'm like you got 15, you got none, right? It's like you just can't decide, you know, what's important. So I'll tell you everything because I just can't figure out. And the thing is it's very hard to just say one thing. But it's really the mental exercise that matters. >> Going through that mental exercise is really important according to Slootman. Let's have a conversation about what really matters at this point in time. Why does it need to happen? And does it take priority over other things? Slootman says you have to pull apart the hairball and drive extraordinary clarity. You could be wrong, he says. And he admits he's been wrong on many things before. He, like everyone, is fearful of being wrong. But if you don't have the conversation according to Slootman, you're already defeated. And one of the most important things Slootman emphasizes in the book is execution. He said that's one of the reasons he wrote "Amp It Up." In our discussion, he referenced Pat Gelsinger, his former boss, who bought Data Domain when he was working for Joe Tucci at EMC. Listen to Frank describe the interaction with Gelsinger. >> Well, one of my prior bosses, you know, Pat Gelsinger, when they acquired Data Domain through EMC, Pat was CEO of Intel. And he quoted Andy Grove as saying, 'cause he was Intel for a long time when he was younger man. And he said no strategy is better than its execution, which if I find one of the most brilliant things. >> Now, before you go changing your strategy, says Slootman, you have to eliminate execution as a potential point of failure. All too often, he says, Silicon Valley wants to change strategy without really understanding whether the execution is right. All too often companies don't consider that maybe the product isn't that great. They will frequently, for example, make a change to sales leadership without questioning whether or not there's a product fit. According to Slootman, you have to drive hardcore intellectual honesty. And as uncomfortable as that may be, it's incredibly important and powerful. Okay, one of the other contrarian points in the book was whether or not to have a customer success department. Slootman says this became really fashionable in Silicon Valley with the SaaS craze. Everyone was following and pattern matching the lead of salesforce.com. He says he's eliminated the customer service department at every company he's led which had a customer success department. Listen to Frank Slootman in his own words talk about the customer success department. >> I view the whole company as a customer success function. Okay, I'm customer success, you know. I said it in my presentation yesterday. We're a customer-first organization. I don't need a department. >> Now, he went on to say that sales owns the commercial relationship with the customer. Engineering owns the technical relationship. And oh, by the way, he always puts support inside of the engineering department because engineering has to back up support. And rather than having a separate department for customer success, he focuses on making sure that the existing departments are functioning properly. Slootman also has always been big on net promoter score, NPS. And Snowflake's is very high at 72. And according to Slootman, it's not just the product. It's the people that drive that type of loyalty. Now, Slootman stresses amping up the big things and even the little things too. He told a story about someone who came into his office to ask his opinion about a tee shirt. And he turned it around on her and said, "Well, what do you think?" And she said, "Well, it's okay." So Frank made the point by flipping the situation. Why are you coming to me with something that's just okay? If we're going to do something, let's do it. Let's do it all out. Let's do it right and get excited about it, not just check the box and get something off your desk. Amp it up, all aspects of our business. Listen to Slootman talk about Steve Jobs and the relevance of demanding excellence and shunning mediocrity. >> He was incredibly intolerant of anything that he didn't think of as great. You know, he was immediately done with it and with the person. You know, I'm not that aggressive, you know, in that way. I'm a little bit nicer, you know, about it. But I still, you know, I don't want to give into expediency and mediocrity. I just don't, I'm just going to fight it, you know, every step of the way. >> Now, that story was about a little thing like some swag. But Slootman talked about some big things too. And one of the major ways Snowflake was making big, sweeping changes to amp up its business was reorganizing its go-to-market around industries like financial services, media, and healthcare. Here's some ETR data that shows Snowflake's net score or spending momentum for key industry segments over time. The red dotted line at 40% is an indicator of highly elevated spending momentum. And you can see for the key areas shown, Snowflake is well above that level. And we cut this data where responses were greater, the response numbers were greater than 15. So not huge ends but large enough to have meaning. Most were in the 20s. Now, it's relatively uncommon to see a company that's having the success of Snowflake make this kind of non-trivial change in the middle of steep S-curve growth. Why did they make this move? Well, I think it's because Snowflake realizes that its data cloud is going to increasingly have industry diversity and unique value by industry, that ecosystems and data marketplaces are forming around industries. So the more industry affinity Snowflake can create, the stronger its moat will be. It also aligns with how the largest and most prominent global system integrators, global SIs, go to market. This is important because as companies are transforming, they are radically changing their data architecture, how they think about data, how they approach data as a competitive advantage, and they're looking at data as specifically a monetization opportunity. So having industry expertise and knowledge and aligning with those customer objectives is going to serve Snowflake and its ecosystems well in my view. Slootman even said he joined the board of Instacart not because he needed another board seat but because he wanted to get out of his comfort zone and expose himself to other industries as a way to learn. So look, we're just barely scratching the surface of Slootman's book and I've pulled some highlights from our conversation. There's so much more that I can share just even from our conversation. And I will as the opportunity arises. But for now, I'll just give you the kind of bumper sticker of "Amp It Up." Raise your standards by taking every opportunity, every interaction, to increase your intensity. Get your people aligned and moving in the same direction. If it's the wrong direction, figure it out and course correct quickly. Prioritize and sharpen your focus on things that will really make a difference. If you do these things and increase the urgency in your organization, you'll naturally pick up the pace and accelerate your company. Do these things and you'll be able to transform, better identify adjacent opportunities and go attack them, and create a lasting and meaningful experience for your employees, customers, and partners. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching. And thank you to Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast for Breaking Analysis. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our EIC over at Silicon Angle who does some wonderful and tremendous editing. Thank you all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in enterprise tech. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone, this is Stephanie Chan with theCUBE. Recently analyst Dave Ross RADIO entitled, Pat Gelsinger has a vision. It just needs the time, the cash and a miracle where he highlights why he thinks Intel is years away from reversing position in the semiconductor industry. Welcome Dave. >> Hey thanks, Stephanie. Good to see you. >> So, Dave you been following the company closely over the years. If you look at Wall Street Journal most analysts are saying to hold onto Intel. can you tell us why you're so negative on it? >> Well, you know, I'm not a stock picker Stephanie, but I've seen the data there are a lot of... some buys some sells, but most of the analysts are on a hold. I think they're, who knows maybe they're just hedging their bets they don't want to a strong controversial call that kind of sitting in the fence. But look, Intel still an amazing company they got tremendous resources. They're an ICON and they pay a dividend. So, there's definitely an investment case to be made to hold onto the stock. But I would generally say that investors they better be ready to hold on to Intel for a long, long time. I mean, Intel's they're just not the dominant player that it used to be. And the challenges have been mounting for a decade and look competitively Intel's fighting a five front war. They got AMD in both PCs and the data center the entire Arm Ecosystem` and video coming after with the whole move toward AI and GPU they're dominating there. Taiwan Semiconductor is by far the leading fab in the world with terms of output. And I would say even China is kind of the fifth leg of that stool, long term. So, lot of hurdles to jump competitively. >> So what are other sources of Intel's trouble sincere besides what you just mentioned? >> Well, I think they started when PC volumes peaked which was, or David Floyer, Wikibon wrote back in 2011, 2012 that he tells if it doesn't make some moves, it's going to face some trouble. So, even though PC volumes have bumped up with the pandemic recently, they pair in comparison to the wafer volume that are coming out of the Arm Ecosystem, and TSM and Samsung factories. The volumes of the Arm Ecosystem, Stephanie they dwarf the output of Intel by probably 10 X in semiconductors. I mean, the volume in semiconductors is everything. And because that's what costs down and Intel they just knocked a little cost manufacture any anymore. And in my view, they may never be again, not without a major change in the volume strategy, which of course Gelsinger is doing everything he can to affect that change, but they're years away and they're going to have to spend, north of a 100 billion dollars trying to get there, but it's all about volume in the semiconductor game. And Intel just doesn't have it right now. >> So you mentioned Pat Gelsinger he was a new CEO last January. He's a highly respected CEO and in truth employed more than four decades, I think he has knowledge and experience. including 30 years at Intel where he began his career. What's your opinion on his performance thus far besides the volume and semiconductor industry position of Intel? >> Well, I think Gelsinger is an amazing executive. He's a technical visionary, he's an execution machine, he's doing all the right things. I mean, he's working, he was at the state of the union address and looking good in a suit, he's saying all the right things. He's spending time with EU leaders. And he's just a very clear thinker and a super strong strategist, but you can't change Physics. The thing about Pat is he's known all along what's going on with Intel. I'm sure he's watched it from not so far because I think it's always been his dream to run the company. So, the fact that he's made a lot of moves. He's bringing in new management, he's repairing some of the dead wood at Intel. He's launched, kind of relaunched if you will, the Foundry Business. But I think they're serious about that. You know, this time around, they're spinning out mobile eye to throw off some cash mobile eye was an acquisition they made years ago to throw off some more cash to pay for the fabs. They have announced things like; a fabs in Ohio, in the Heartland, Ze in Heartland which is strikes all the right chords with the various politicians. And so again, he's doing all the right things. He's trying to inject. He's calling out his best Andrew Grove. I like to say who's of course, The Iconic CEO of Intel for many, many years, but again you can't change Physics. He can't compress the cycle any faster than the cycle wants to go. And so he's doing all the right things. It's just going to take a long, long time. >> And you said that competition is better positioned. Could you elaborate on why you think that, and who are the main competitors at this moment? >> Well, it's this Five Front War that I talked about. I mean, you see what's happened in Arm changed everything, Intel remember they passed on the iPhone didn't think it could make enough money on smartphones. And that opened the door for Arm. It was eager to take Apple's business. And because of the consumer volumes the semiconductor industry changed permanently just like the PC volume changed the whole mini computer business. Well, the smartphone changed the economics of semiconductors as well. Very few companies can afford the capital expense of building semiconductor fabrication facilities. And even fewer can make cutting edge chips like; five nanometer, three nanometer and beyond. So companies like AMD and Invidia, they don't make chips they design them and then they ship them to foundries like TSM and Samsung to manufacture them. And because TSM has such huge volumes, thanks to large part to Apple it's further down or up I guess the experience curve and experience means everything in terms of cost. And they're leaving Intel behind. I mean, the best example I can give you is Apple would look at the, a series chip, and now the M one and the M one ultra, I think about the traditional Moore's law curve that we all talk about two X to transistor density every two years doubling. Intel's lucky today if can keep that pace up, let's assume it can. But meanwhile, look at Apple's Arm based M one to M one Ultra transition. It occurred in less than two years. It was more like, 15 or 18 months. And it went from 16 billion transistors on a package to over a 100 billion. And so we're talking about the competition Apple in this case using Arm standards improving it six to seven X inside of a two year period while Intel's running it two X. And that says it all. So Intel is on a curve that's more expensive and slower than the competition. >> Well recently, until what Lujan Harrison did with 5.4 billion So it can make more check order companies last February I think the middle of February what do you think of that strategic move? >> Well, it was designed to help with Foundry. And again, I said left that out of my things that in Intel's doing, as Pat's doing there's a long list actually and many more. Again I think, it's an Israeli based company they're a global company, which is important. One of the things that Pat stresses is having a a presence in Western countries, I think that's super important, he'd like to get the percentage of semiconductors coming out of Western countries back up to at least maybe not to where it was previously but by the end of the decade, much more competitive. And so that's what that acquisition was designed to do. And it's a good move, but it's, again it doesn't change Physics. >> So Dave, you've been putting a lot of content out there and been following Intel for years. What can Intel do to go back on track? >> Well, I think first it needs great leadership and Pat Gelsinger is providing that. Since we talked about it, he's doing all the right things. He's manifesting his best. Andrew Grove, as I said earlier, splitting out the Foundry business is critical because we all know Moore's law. This is Right Law talks about volume in any business not just semiconductors, but it's crucial in semiconductors. So, splitting out a separate Foundry business to make chips is important. He's going to do that. Of course, he's going to ask Intel's competitors to allow Intel to manufacture their chips which they very well may well want to do because there's such a shortage right now of supply and they need those types of manufacturers. So, the hope is that that's going to drive the volume necessary for Intel to compete cost effectively. And there's the chips act. And it's EU cousin where governments are going to possibly put in some money into the semiconductor manufacturing to make the west more competitive. It's a key initiative that Pat has put forth and a challenge. And it's a good one. And he's making a lot of moves on the design side and committing tons of CapEx in these new fabs as we talked about but maybe his best chance is again the fact that, well first of all, the market's enormous. It's a trillion dollar market, but secondly there's a very long term shortage in play here in semiconductors. I don't think it's going to be cleared up in 2022 or 2023. It's just going to be keep being an explotion whether it's automobiles and factory devices and cameras. I mean, virtually every consumer device and edge device is going to use huge numbers of semiconductor chip. So, I think that's in Pat's favor, but honestly Intel is so far behind in my opinion, that I hope by the end of this decade, it's going to be in a position maybe a stronger number two position, and volume behind TSM maybe number three behind Samsung maybe Apple is going to throw Intel some Foundry business over time, maybe under pressure from the us government. And they can maybe win that account back but that's still years away from a design cycle standpoint. And so again, maybe in the 2030's, Intel can compete for top dog status, but that in my view is the best we can hope for this national treasure called Intel. >> Got it. So we got to leave it right there. Thank you so much for your time, Dave. >> You're welcome Stephanie. Good to talk to you >> So you can check out Dave's breaking analysis on theCUBE.net each Friday. This is Stephanie Chan for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)