>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas. It's the CUBE. Covering NAB 2017, brought to you by HGST. >> Welcome back to the CUBE live in Las Vegas at the NAB show. We're having a great day so far. Very excited to introduce you to my next guest, Kevin Baillie, cofounder and VFX supervisor at Atomic Fiction and the CEO of Conductor Technologies. Never a boring day for you with those two titles, I can imagine. >> No, I like to joke that I like to make sure that I always have the most exciting job in the world so I had to pick three to make sure that I never have a down moment spoil that, that day >> Wow, I am impressed. So you just spoke at the virtual NAB conference last month on the visual effects in the cloud, power, and control. Something that I found very interesting was that six years ago, you were kind of on an island going "I have this hunch about cloud." Tell us about, what was that hunch, why did you have it, and what has it generated so far? >> Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. The hunch was less of like, "Hey cloud looks like a great opportunity." It was more of like knowing what wasn't working in the industry as it was at that time. There were all kinds of companies that were kind of like having financial troubles or having a hard time delivering projects, tons of bankruptcies and just really sad stories everywhere. And we looked at the market and said, "There's a ton of work here, this doesn't make sense." Some of the best entertainment is being made right now and it all relies on visual effects, what's wrong? And the further we broke down the problem, the more we realized that like fixed infrastructure within a market that naturally ebbs and flows, it just didn't, there wasn't a match there. So, through that problem, we looked for solutions and cloud was a very obvious one at that point. So we just made the jump. >> And tell us about Atomic Fiction versus Conductor Technologies. Chicken, egg, which one came first? And how are they collaborating together? >> Atomic Fiction came first. It was almost seven years ago at this point that we started Atomic. And we looked for any kind of a way to use cloud. We started using an AWS directly, we then used a tool called Zync. And as we grew, we found that the needs of the company were changing so radically that nothing that was out there could actually keep up with our pace of growth. We had all this customized pipeline that we couldn't find a way to like get it into the cloud. So we built our own and that was called Conductor. And after, I think we were working on like Game of Thrones and The Walk and had just started on Deadpool that we realized it was working so well that we decided to spin it off as it's own company and make a go for actually turning it into a product that could help everybody in the same way that the cloud had helped Atomic Fiction. >> Fantastic, one of my favorite movies is The Walk. I was looking at your website and you think as the viewer, "How did they film this?" You know, this day and age, so much is CGI. Talk to us about what realtime cloud rendering is. How does it enable a movie like The Walk or Deadpool to have that awe inspiring, jaw dropping reaction from the audience? >> Well I think a large portion of bringing that jaw dropping reaction to the audience and that level of realism is being able to run productions in the way that they want to be run. And what I mean by that is, let's take a movie like The Walk where you have to recreate 1974 New York and the Twin Towers, and all these different lighting scenarios. That means we have to build every building, every rain gutter, every hotdog stand in the street down to exacting detail, and that just takes a lot of time. So we spent a ton of time, probably the first three quarters of the schedule just building the city, building the city. And we couldn't render anything at that point And it wasn't only until the very end of the show that we were able to say, "alright, now we have New York is there, let's just put it on the screen." But that takes millions of hours of computing to get that done. The Walk for example, it used 9.1 million processor hours of rendering. That's over a thousand years on a single processor to get it done. So if we hadn't had the cloud, we would have had to been like, "Oh what can we render first "so we don't bottleneck at the end of the schedule?" And really kind of like trying to bend production into the box that we, of fixed infrastructure that we have. But with the cloud, we don't have to do that. We can say, we can go as big as we want to at the very end of the show and get it done if that's what makes sense for the show. Because that's what makes sense for the show, the creative just ends up being that much better. The same was true for Deadpool, the same is true for Star Trek. These movies, they just sort of, you want to craft love into the beginning part of it so the stuff you generate at the end is as beautiful as it can be. >> So is cloud really freeing production from being able to operate in the way that it needs to operate? >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because the traditional model is, a visual effects company builds a data center and stuffs it full of computers. In best case, with like three weeks lead time you can like rent a bunch of racks of computers and like shove them in a closet somewhere and get your project done. It ends up being expensive and painful. You need a big team to man all that stuff. Whereas with cloud, we can say, "Hey, I need a thousand computers three minutes from now." And boom, a thousand computers spin up out of nowhere. And the great thing that we've done with Conductor as well is we've gone and negotiated per minute software licensing with Autodesk and the Foundry and IsoTropic and Chaos Group. All these big software vendors in the industry. So not only can you get compute by the minute, you can also get all the software that you need by the minute, right. So you can have three thousand nodes running Autodesk to Arnold, and you, but you run it for 42 minutes and you only pay for 42 minutes of three thousand licenses of Arnold, right. So it's really transformative from a flexibility standpoint. >> And the cost model really flips it on it's head. >> And by the way, the artists get the result back faster. Because you can scale up so big and get the result back to them so quickly without any cost penalty, they see the fruits of their labor while the ideas are still fresh in their head, which is like a huge, like, intangible benefit which has real economic benefits. >> Absolutely, one of the things and themes that we've heard of today is that speed is key. Absolutely critical to whatever is going to happen or whether or not on a shoot, a vision changes direction. And without having the power of the cloud to facilitate something on a dime, there's delays, which all adds up to economic impact. >> Yeah, and you know, back on one of our earliest projects rendered in the cloud, Flight. The Robert Zemeckis movie with Denzel Washington. That exact thing happened, where it was like at the very end, he, Zemeckis realized that he needed this extra set of like a hundred visual effects shots. And if it hadn't have been for the cloud, we would have had to say, "No, sorry we can't do these." "We have to find somebody else to do them." But because the ability of the cloud to accommodate that last minute creative epiphany, we were able to actually do the work. So it really is truly transformative and allowed us to bring in, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of extra revenue that we wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. >> Absolutely. In terms of some of the public cloud providers, tell us who you're working with on that end. >> Yeah, so we're working with Google right now, using Google Compute Engine on the back end. And we're actually moving forward with Microsoft and Azure. Adding it as an option later in the year. So, hopefully at the end of the year, we'll be able to support all the large cloud providers. And be able to say, "Hey, Studio X. "We know you have an affinity for Google right now, "but on the next project maybe you need "a very specific GPU type." Or there's a company in China that needs to do some work and Google isn't there. Now Azure is your thing, right. So, I think that the world of cloud providers competing against one another is going to be really beneficial for everyone in our industry for sure. And we want to be there to facilitate a little bit of like, choose whoever's best, right. >> Right, giving you the ability to really be like agnostic on the back end. >> Yeah that's exactly right. >> So as we look at these massive resources that studios are generating, creating such interactive films, what are some of the precautions that you see and you can help them mitigate against leveraging the power of cloud. >> Well, one of the benefits of cloud is you only have to pay for what you use, just like electricity, right. One of the downsides of cloud is you have to pay for what you use, right. So, if you're not careful about the render you put in the cloud or the simulation you put in the cloud, or how long you keep data in the cloud, things can get really expensive really quickly. So, one of the things we did, and this is actually why we kind of spun Conductor off as it's own company. And we just raised our Series A round of funding back in December to build the team out, because a lot of this stuff is really complicated, is one of the big efforts, in kind of a post funding world for Conductor, is on analytics and being able to use data to help people drive production better. So you know, in the very beginning, we have cost limits where you can say, "On this shot, I don't want to spend "more than a thousand dollars." Or, "I never want this artist to be able to spend "more than fifteen hundred bucks a day." But in the future, I think that there is kind of like cloud buzz-wordy things that actually come into real play here where we can use machine learning to detect when things are taking too long and alert people. We can tell people how much a render is going to cost before they even submit it maybe. We can use computer vision to check for bad things happening in the middle of a render before a human ever has a chance to lay eyes on it. So there's all kinds of stuff we can do with data to help mitigate some of the downsides of cloud and hopefully only leave people with like great insights to help them run production better. >> That's fantastic. One of the things that really interests me is the machine learning and the artificial intelligence. To be able to look at whether it's a broadcast outlet or a film studio, to be able to take a look at and evaluate the value and additional revenue streams that can come. But also, in your case, maybe even leveraging AI and machine learning to make certain processes faster thereby lowering costs. >> Yeah, we can actually make proactive suggestions based on, like, you know, thousands or millions of data points and say like, "Hey if you tweak this value on your shading rate here, "you're going to end up with a great visual "and not spend any more time, or actually spend less." So things like that and then also working together with production management systems. Like the guys at Autodesk have a product called Shotgun that deals with schedules and artist assignments. And they can have all the schedule information. We have all the sort of infrastructure information. If we correlate those two data sets together, then we'll be able to actually proactively tell somebody when we think a shot is running behind schedule. Or a shot needs more optimization. And I mean, there's all kinds of things that we can use just purely using data and a trained machine learning model to actually help people run their entire business better, not just an individual shot. >> Right, well, six years ago, when you had this hunch, you said there were some skeptics around there. One, you must feel pretty validated by now, but are you kind of one of the go-to guys, go-to companies of this is how to do it properly? These are all of the advantages, economic advantages, etc, that we can provide? >> Yeah, I think that there were definitely people that told me I was absolutely crazy when I first got started. Some of them are actually using Conductor now, so that's kind of like good. >> That must feel good right? >> Yeah, it's a good validation point and they had a lot of reasons for thinking that we were insane, cause we kind of were. But we just sort of believed deep down that it was going to work. So, yeah, I mean now, I think we're in a great position to help people. And for me, and you know, this is always like a thing that I sometimes get a hard time for, but I'm so passionate about this industry moving into the cloud that I'm just as happy to talk to somebody about how to do it maybe on their own if they're trying to do it on a small scale. Or what our competitors might be doing. Really, through that, I've kind of, we've found a space where we don't really have any competitors yet and we're breaking new ground. Really servicing the sort of medium and enterprise scale customers, and that kind of flexibility and scale and security that they kind of need. So it's sort of interesting in this, in a way, this sort of like selfless, just being excited about cloud has helped us to find a market that we can really and truly add insane value to. >> Wow, that is fascinating. Well, your passion for it is evident. Thank you so much Kevin for joining us on the CUBE. >> Yeah, thank you so much. >> Have a great time at the rest of the show and we'll see you on the CUBE sometimes soon. >> I always do, thank you again. >> Excellent, we want to thank you for watching. Again, we are live at NAB Las Vegas. Stick around. We will be right back.

>>Welcome to the Cubes Coverage of Splunk.com 2021. My name is Dave Atlanta and the Cube has been covering.com events since 2012 and I've personally hosted many of them. And since that time we've seen the evolution of Splunk as a company and also the maturation in the way customers analyzed, protect and secure their organizations, data and applications. But the forced march to digital over the past 19 months has brought more rapid changes to sec UP teams than we've ever seen before. The adversary is capable. They're motivated and they're deploying very sophisticated techniques that have pressured security pros like never before. And with me to talk about these challenges and how Splunk is helping customers respond as jane wang is the vice president of security products that Splunk jane. Great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Very nice to meet you. Thank you for having me. >>You're very welcome. So how d how can you think about or how do you think about the fact that the imperative to accelerate digital transformation has impacted security teams? How has it impacted sec ops teams in your view? >>Yeah. Well, just going back to our customers and what I've learned from all the customer conversations I have every every week many of our customers are under a massive digital transformation. They're moving to the cloud and the cloud opens up more attack surface, more attack work surface, there's more threats that come over cloud, new workspaces to attack services, new api is to manage secure and protect and our customers are really struggling to gain the visibility they need to really manage and secure across all that infrastructure. >>Yeah. And we've also seen the whole, obviously the work from home trend, the hybrid work movement, you know, people aren't set up for that. I mean, you remember people were ripping out literally ripping out desktops and bringing them home and you know, the home network had to be upgraded. So lots of changes there. And we've we've talked a lot in the cube jane about the fragmentation of tooling and the lack of qualified talent when we talked to see. So as you ask him, the number one problem, I can't get, I can't hire enough talent in the field of of cybersecurity. So I wonder if you can address how this has made it more difficult for security teams to maintain end to end visibility across their environments. What's the fundamental challenge there? >>Yeah, well you're really you're really nailing this. The fundamental challenges that many security products are not built to integrate seamlessly with one another. When I'm talking to customers, their frontline security operations teams often have 30 different consoles open on their monitor at one time and there really manual disjointed processes, the copying and pasting hash names and iP addresses from one consults the other. It slows them down. It really slows them down in protecting those threats. So because those products aren't assigned to integrate together and all that data from each of those security tools isn't brought into one place. It just exacerbates the challenge for security operations seems makes their job really, really hard to do. Which takes time. It takes time. It makes it harder to detect and respond to threats quickly and today more than ever we need to be able to detect and respond to threats quickly. >>Yeah, I do a weekly program called Breaking Analysis and once a quarter I look at the cyberspace and I use a chart to emphasize this complexity. It's it's a from a company called operative, I don't know if you've ever seen it but it's this eye chart, it's this taxonomy of the security landscape and it's mind blowing how much complexity there is. So how to Splunk help organization organizations address these challenges. >>Yeah, so I think bringing, we have one security operations platform cloud native cloud delivered. There are many parts of being able to streamline workflows for when you're first detect a threat or a potential threat right through to when teams close and immediate that threatened the changes in their environment to ensure they're protected. So the whole thing is helping security teams detects faster, investigate faster and respond faster to threat. There are four parts to that in our security operations, platform Splunk security cloud. The first one is advanced security analytics. So the nature of threats is evolving. They're becoming more sophisticated. We have very smart, well funded Attackers whose day job who spend all their time trying to break into organizations. So you need really advanced security analytics to detect those threats, then we need to automate security operations so that it's not so manual, so you don't have poor folks sitting in front of multiple consoles doing manual tasks to respond to those threats and make sure their organizations are protected. One key thing is that this year Splunk acquired true Star so that we can bring in d do rationalize multiple sources of threat intelligence and apply that threat intelligence both to our analytics and our operations so that you have broader insights from the security community outside Splunk and that intelligence can really help and speed both detection and response. And the last thing that's been true about Splunk since spunk became Splunk many many years ago is that we are committed to partners and we deeply integrate with many other security tools uh in a very seamless way. So whatever investments customers have made within their security operations center, we will integrate and bring together those tools in one workspace. So there's the big advantages I think you get when, when you run your security operations said transplant security cloud, >>that's a nice little description. And having followed Splint for so many years, it's sort of, it tracks the progression of your ascendancy. You know, you started you you we we used to have log analytics that were just impossible. You sort of made that much easier took that to advanced kind of use big data techniques even though Splunk really never used that term. But but you were like the leader and big data um in terms of being able to analyze um uh data to help remediate issues. The automation key is p pieces key the acquisitions. You've made a very interesting um you mentioned around de doop threat intelligence but also you've done some cool stuff in the cloud and we always used to say jane watch for the ecosystem. We early too early, you know, last decade we saw you as a really hot company. We said one of the keys to your growth is going to be the ecosystem. And you've you've clearly made some progress there. I wonder if you could tell us more About the announcements that you're making here at.com. >>Yeah. Well we're going back everything that we do on the security team, every line of code every engineer writes is all around helping detect, investigate and respond faster to really secure organizations. So if I look at those intern I start with faster time to detect what have we done. So bringing in the threat intelligence that I mentioned again, that's really gonna help to take new threats and to take them really, really quickly. You don't have to spend time going and looking manually at external sources of threat intelligence. It will be brought right in to enterprise security at your fingertips. So that that's pretty huge. We're bringing other more advanced content right into our stem enterprise security. So that will help detect threats that our research team sees as emerging again. This is going to just bring bring that intelligence right to customers where they work every day, um faster time to investigate. So this is this is really exciting uh back in november we reduced and we are really something called risk based alerting. That is an amazing new capability that we've iterated on ever since. And we have more iterations that we're announcing um tomorrow actually. And so risk based alerting pulls together what may have been single atomic alerts that can often be overwhelming to a sock brings those together into one overarching alert that helps you see the whole pattern of an attack, the whole series of things that happened over time. That might be an attack on your organization. One customer told us that that reduced the time it took for them to do an investigation from eight hours down to 10 minutes to really helping faster time to investigate. And then the next one is faster time to respond. So we have a new visual playbook editor for our sore security orchestration and response to which is in the cloud but also available on prayer. But that new visual playbook editor really reduces the need for custom code. Makes playbooks more modular, so it can help anyone in the security operations team respond to threats really, really quickly. So faster time to detect, investigate and respond those are, those are really cool for us. And then there's some exciting partnerships that I want to talk about just to really focus on reducing the burden of all those disparate tools on consoles and bringing them down and and integrating them together. So we'll have some announcements. There are new integrations that we're releasing with Mandiant Aziz scalar and detects. I'm personally very excited about a fireside chat that Kevin Mandia, the Ceo and president of Mandiant, we'll be having tomorrow with our Ceo Doug merit. So those are some of the things we're announcing. It's a big year for security. Very excited >>to tell you that's, that's key. I want to just kind of go through and follow up on some of the faster time to detect with the threat intelligence. That's so important because we read about how long it takes sometimes for for organizations to even find out that somebody has infiltrated their environment. This risk based learning, it sounds like and you're so right, it's like paper cuts having a bottoms up analysis. It's almost overwhelming. You don't have a sense as to really where the focus should be. So if you can have more of a top down, hey start here and sort of bucket ties things. It's gonna, it's gonna accelerate and then the faster response time. The thing that strikes me jane with your visual playbook editor is as you well know, the the way in which bad guys get in now they're very stealthy, you almost have to be stealthy in your response. So if you have to write custom code that's going to alert the bad guys that they're they're seeing now seeing code that they've never seen before, they must have detected us and then they escalate, you know, they get you in a harder, tighter headlock. Uh and I love the partnerships, you know, we, we followed the trend toward remote security. Cloud security, where's the scale is a big player, Amanda you mentioned. So that's that's great too. I mean it feels like the puzzle pieces are coming together. It's it's almost like a game of constant, you know, you're never there but you've got to stay vigilant. >>I really think so today. I mean it's been a great 12 months that's blank. We have done so much over the past year leading up to this.com. I'm very excited to talk to folks about it. I think one thing I didn't really mention that I kind of touched on earlier in the talk that we're having was around cloud security monitoring. So holistic cloud security monitoring. We've got some updates there as well with deeper integrations into G C P A W S Azure, one dr SharePoint box net G drive. Like customers are using many, many cloud services today and they don't have a holistic view across all those services I speak to see so every week that tell me they just really need one view. Not to go into each of those cloud service providers or cloud services, one at a time to look at the security posture, they need that all in a central location. So we normalize, we ingest and normalize data from each of those cloud services so you can see threats consistently across each of them. I think that's really, really something different that Splunk is doing um that other security offerings are not doing. >>I think that's a super important point and I do hear that a lot from CsoS where they say look we have so many different environments, so many different tools and they each have their own little framework so we have to go in and and investigate and then come back out and then our teams have to go into a new sort of view and come back out and and they just run out of time and they just don't again, lack of lack of skills to actually do this, can't hire half fast enough, can't train fast enough. So so that higher level view but still the ability to drill down and understand what those root causes. That's it's a it's a it's a top down bottoms up type of approach and and so as opposed to just throwing grains of sand at the second teams and then hoping, you know, they find the pearl, so jane, I'll give you the last word, Maybe some final thoughts. >>No, I just wanted to thank everyone for listening. I want to thank everyone for joining dot com 21. We're very excited to hear from you and speak with you. So thank you very much. >>Excellent. Great having you in the cube, keep it right there, everybody for more coverage of the cube. Splunk dot com 21. We'll be right back, >>Yeah.

>>Okay, okay, we're back, you're watching the cubes, continuous coverage of HBs Green Lake announcement. One of the things that we said on the Cuban. We first saw Green Lake was let's watch the pace at which H P E delivers new servants is what's that cadence like? Because that's a real signal as to the extent that the company's leading into the cloud and today we're covering that continued expansion. We're here with Tom Black, who was the general manager of HPC storage and Omar assad, who's the storage platform lead for cloud data services at Hewlett Packard Enterprise gentlemen welcome. It's good to see you. >>Thanks Dave. Thanks for having us today. Good to see you. >>Happy to be here. Dave. >>So obviously a lot has changed globally, but when you think of things like cyber threats, ransomware, uh, the acceleration of business transformation, uh, these are new things, a lot of it is unknown a lot of it was forced upon us tom what are you guys doing to address these trends? How are you helping customers? >>Sure, thanks for the question. So if you think back to what we launched in early May, kind of the initial cloud transformation of what was our traditional storage business. Um, we really focused on one key theme. Very customer and customer driven theme that the cloud operational model has one and that customers want that operational model, whether they're operating their workload in the cloud or whether they're operating that workload in their own facility or Nicolo kind of the same thing. So that was kind of our true north and that's what we launched out of the gate in May. But we did allude in May to the fact that we would have an ongoing series of new services coming out on the uh H B Green Lake edge to cloud platform. And just really excited today to be talking about somewhat that expansion looks like um we will continue uh through this month and through the quarters ahead to really add more and more services in that vein of focusing on bringing that true cloud services model to our customer. So we're really excited today to unveil kind of, we've entered the data protection as a service market with HP Green Lake. So this is really our expansion into a very top of mind topic and set of problems and solutions or headaches and aspirins, to quote an old friend um that Ceos faces, they think about how to manage data through its life cycle in their organization. >>When I talked to see IOS during the pandemic. Not that we're out yet, but really in the throes of it and asked them about things like business resilience that they said, you know, we really had to rethink our disaster recovery strategy. It was it was sort of geared toward a fire or a hurricane and we we just didn't even imagine this type of disaster if you will. So we really needed to rethink it. So when I, I see your disaster recovery as a service and capabilities like that. Is that the Xarelto acquisition? >>Yes. Dave thanks you. So we're super happy to have the Xarelto team now as part of our family. Um, just a brilliant team, a well respected technology, uh, kind of a blue chips at our customers and partners that really appreciate what zero has to offer. Um, as we looked at the data protection as a service market, one of the hardest problems is really in that disaster recovery space, I think Omar's gonna talk a little bit more about today. Um, but sort of really does bring the leading industry, what's called continuous data protection um, capability into our green lake platform. Um, we've just recently closed the acquisition and we're working on kind of integration plan as we speak now that we can actually talk to each other post close. Um, but you'll uh, you'll continue to see, you know, some really exciting milestones each and every quarter as we march forward with certain now as part of the family. >>So we all talk about how data is, is so important. We certainly learned during the pandemic that that if you weren't a digital business, you were out of business and a digital business is a data business. So things like backup data protection as a service become increasingly critical. I know you have some capabilities there maybe you could share with us. >>Absolutely. So you know, one of the things that we noticed was as we took the storage business through its transformation and we started can work you know, with the launch of the electron 90 and the six K platform. We really really brought the cloud operational model to our customers. So one of the things that you know, feedback that was coming loud and clear to us is that as we look at the storage portfolio where we look at file block and object, which are now being transformed into a cloud operational experience, data protection, disaster recovery coming back into business after a disaster snapshot management. All of those capabilities, we still have to rely on our partner technologies in order to do that now. It's not bad that we have great partners in the data protection world, but what we're really focused on is that cloud operational model and cloud operational experience and to and as tom mentioned through the data management life cycle. So as a result of that, we talked to a lot of our customers, we talked to a bunch of partners and one of the things that was coming back was that yes, there are many data protection backup offerings on the market. But that true as a service experience that is completely integrated to the services experience of the storage that the customers is experiencing that is not there. So what we looked at was especially to the largest ecosystem, which is the VM ware ecosystems. So we're launching data protection as a service or backup as a service for our VM ware customers offered from data services, cloud console as a SAAS portal. 100% SAs service, nothing to install. No media servers, no application servers, no catalog servers, no backup targets, no patching, no expansion, no capacity planning. None of that is needed. All that's needed is sign on click. Give your V center credentials and off you go, that's it. That is it three clicks and you're in business. So currently, you know, in our, in our analysis we offer five x faster recovery from any of the competitive offerings that there there there are 3.5 better de doop ratios. But for our customers is as simple as this. VM is protected as this many dollars per gig per month. That's it. No backup target, no media server, no catalogs are nothing nothing to manage total Turkey off of the portal. So that's the cadence of services that if you promise and this is one of the first ones when it comes to data management that is coming out into the open. >>So you may have just answered this question, but I want to pose it and get you maybe just summarize it because tom was talking earlier about the customer mandate for cloud in a cloud operational model. So I want you to explain to the audience how you're making that real >>actually can I start that one should be the test was monday morning. Getting ready for this chat with you Dave they got me on console and I'm not kidding three clicks, I got back up and running off the lab VM ware instance so I'll pass it off to you the real answer. But if I could do it three clicks >>as well as a convenience of this service, even tom can be your back, you might be able to do with this. Uh again, you know, a very important question the when you, when you look at the cloud operational model as you abstracts the hardware and and take the management model up into a SAS service, it gives our customers that access to that continuous delivery access that we have. We're going to continue to make the service medal better in the cloud model and automatically customers get the value of it without even reinstalling or going through a patch cycle or an upgrade cycle. But as we get into this cloud operational model, one of the things that was missing was uh if you if you if you if you start to talk about applications, how our application workloads going to be deployed, how are they going to be protected and how are they going to be expanded? So what we did was we, we expanded our info site offerings by merging them into the data services, cloud console and we're releasing a new service called app insects. It is going to be available to our customers at the end of the month. Uh It is, nothing has to change. They don't have to install any sort of agents or or host modifications, nothing like that. If their customers of electra nimble primary boxes and they're using info site and data services, cloud console, they will automatically get app insights. What Athens sites does is it really teases apart all that data that we have been collecting within foresight and now with the acquisition of HPV cloud physics, we're merging them together and relating the operational stacked top to bottom. So discovering all the way from your application usage, network usage, storage, use it. IOP usage VM values cross, collaborating them and presenting that to a customer from an app or an outcome perspective all in the data services, cloud console. So what this does for our customers is it really really transforms not only their operational experience but also buying experience. Because if you remember in one of the earlier releases of data services cloud console we released this application called, you know, intelligent intent based provisioning in which you just describe your workload and we go ahead and we provision that app insights and info site, feed that information directly into that and cloud physics generates and results and displays those analytics back to us to your partner of record and to the H. B. So we can all come together on a common data driven discussion point with our customers to continue to make their journey better >>tom where's all the boxes, traditional storage is changing. I've actually been waiting for this day for a long, long time. We've certainly seen glimpses of it from the cloud players, but they don't have, you know, super rich portfolio storage portfolio. They're growing now, but this is a really good strong example of a company with a large storage portfolio. That's, I mean I haven't heard the word three power once today. Right. And so what that says to me, that's an indication that you're thinking like a cloud player, can you maybe talk >>to that? Sure. Yeah, we're just tremendously excited about this transformation and really the reception we've got in the market from analysts, from partners, from customers because you're right, you haven't heard us talk about a box at all today. It's really about a block service, a file on the object service, a backup and recovery service, disaster recovery service. That that's that is the the language, if you will of the business problems of our customers not, do they need to pick this widget or that widget. And how many apps can I get here and there? And which did the h a cage protection scheme be that, is that, is our job to manage underneath are true North, which is the cloud operational model. And so that's going to be really how we we've set our course and how we will uh kind of deliver products solutions offers into the market underneath that umbrella, Ultimately, um getting our customers wherever their data is Dave to be able to interact at that service level instead of at that infrastructure box >>level, you've got my attention wherever the data. So that's the north star here is this is, you know, you're not done today obviously, but you've got a vision to bring that to the cloud across clouds on prem out to the edge. That's the abstraction layer that you're gonna build, your hiding all that complexity. That's correct. And that's cloud. The definition of cloud is changing. >>Yeah, >>it's no longer started, it's no longer a remote set of services. Somewhere up in the cloud. It's expanding on prem hybrid across clouds edge >>everywhere. You're exactly right. Dave it is, cloud is more about the experience and the outcome. It gives a customer than actually where the compute or storage is. We've chosen to take a very customer an agnostic position of whether it's, you know, data in your premise, data in your cloud. We're going to help you manage that data and deliver, you know, that data to workloads and analytics, uh, wherever the, wherever the compute needs to be, where the data needs to be. Again, technologies like Xarelto giving instability and move data across clouds from facilities and clouds back and forth. So it's a really exciting new day for HP. Green Lake were just so super happy to bring these technologies out and really continue to follow on the course of doing what we said, we would do >>the new mindset starts there, I guess it's obviously knew certainly new technologies, uh, you're talking about machine intelligence is a metadata challenge. Absolutely. Big time, you know, long term that North Star that we talked about and applying that machine intelligence, all the experience that you gather data that you're gathering is, I think ultimately how customers want you to solve this problem >>in the middle of info site data services, cloud console and the instrumentation that is already shipping on our appliances, both in edge appliances and the data center appliances were collecting more than a trillion data points over the period of a quarter. Right at the end of the day. So it's harnessing that at the back end to cross relate and then using the cloud physics accusation. What we're doing is we can now simulate these things on behalf of our customers into the future timeline. So at the end of the day, it's really about listening to the customer and what outcomes that they want to achieve with their data storage is there we provide excellent persistence layers where customers can store their data safely. But at the end of the day it's customers choice, They can store their data out of the edge in compute servers, commodity servers, X 86 servers, they can have their data in the data center which they are privately owned or their data can be in a service provider or it can be in a hyper secular. The infrastructure of the persistence layer is independent from the data services. Cloud console data services. Cloud console provides our customers with a SAS based industry leading metadata rich management experience, which then allows you to draw conclusions. So services like cloud physics services like uh enforce it, provide the analytics and richness of the metadata, backup and recovery service allows us to index our customers data and add a rich metadata to that and then combine that with xylitol, which is our disaster recovery as a service offering. Going to start over here. That gives the customer a very simple slider as to where they want their protection levels to be, they want their protection to be instant or they want their protection to be lazy eight hours window. But the thing is at the end of the day, it's about choice without managing the complexities of the hardware >>underneath because programmable completely right I come in, what I'm hearing is file object blocks of your multi protocol. I got a full stack so data data reduction, my snaps might replicate whatever whatever I need it in there as a service. I can I can access latency sensitive storage if I need to or I can push it out to cheaper stores. I could push it out to the cloud, presumably I could someday I air gap it uh and it's all done as infrastructure as code and then different protection levels where I see this going. It really gets exciting is you're now a data company and you're bringing ai machine intelligence and driving data products, data services for your customers who are going to monetize that at their end of the value >>chain. That's right. That's right. And safely insecurity. Keeping in mind that was their toes technology. We can give you, you know, small second recovery points to protect against ransomware. So all of that operational elegance, all those insights and intelligence to help you build a more agile, um you know, workloads centric organization, but then to do it safely and securely against ransomware, that's kind of the storm, if you will. That's brewing. And we're just really excited to be at the eye of it. >>I'm excited to. This is uh I've been waiting for this day for a long time and we're not talking about envy, Emmy and Atomic Rights and I love that stuff by the way and I'm sure it's all under the covers, but that's not what drives business value guys. Thanks so much for coming on the Cuban. David. >>Thanks for having us. It's been great. Thank you. >>All right. We're seeing a transformation all through the stack and keep it right there. This is Dave Volonte for the Cuban. Our coverage of HBs Green Lake announcements right back mm mhm

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel and their ecosystem partners. >> And welcome back to our continuing coverage here on theCUBE of AWS re:Invent, we're on day three of three days of wall to wall coverage that we've brought you here from the Sands Expo along with David Vellante, I'm John Walls. Glad you're with us here, we're joined by David Flynn from Hammerspace, and David, good afternoon to you. >> Good afternoon. >> Been quite a year for you, right? >> Yeah. >> This has been something else. Set us up a little bit about where you've been, the journey you're on right now with Hammerspace and maybe for folks at home who aren't familiar, a little bit about what you do. >> So Hammerspace is all about data agility. We believe that data should be like the air you breathe, where you need it, when you need it, without having to think about it. Today, data's managed by copying it between the sundry different types of storage. And that's 'cause we're managing data through the storage system itself. What we want is for data to simply be there, when you need it. So it's all about data agility. >> I need to know more. So let's talk about some of your past endeavors. Fusion-io we watched you grow that company from just an idea. You solved the block storage problem, you solved the performance problems, amazing what you guys did with that company. My understanding is you're focused on file. >> That's right. >> Which is a much larger-- >> Unstructured data in general file and object. >> So a much larger proportion of the data that's out there. >> Yes. >> What's the problem that you guys are going after? >> Well at Fusion-io and this was pre-flash, now flash everybody takes it for granted. When we started it didn't really exist in the data center. And if you're using SAN, most likely it's for performance. And there's a better way to get performance with flash down in the server. Very successful with that. Now the problem is, people want the ease of managablility of having a global name space of file and object name space. And that's what we're tackling now because file is not native in the Cloud. It's kind of an afterthought. And all of these different forms of storage represents silos into which you copy data, from on-prem into cloud, between the different types of storage, from one site to another. This is what we're addressing with virtualizing the data, putting powerful metadata in control of how that data's realized across multiple data centers across the different types of storage, so that you see it as a single piece of data regardless of where it lives. >> Okay so file's not a first class citizen. You're making copies, moving data all over the place. You got copy creep going on. >> It's like cutting off Hydra's head. When you manage data by copying it you're just making more of it and that's because the metadata's down with the data. Every time you make a copy, it's a new piece of data that needs to be managed. >> So talk more about the metadata structure, architecture, what you guys are envisioning? >> Fundamentally, the technology is a separate metadata control plane that is powerful enough to present data as both file and object. And takes that powerful metadata, and puts it in control of where the data is realized, both in terms of what data center it's in, as well as what type of storage it's on, allowing you to tap into the full dynamic range of the performance of server-attached flash, of course Fusion-io, very near and dear to my heart, getting tens of millions of I-ops and tens of gigabytes per second, you can't do that across the network. You have to have the data be very agile, and be able to be promoted into the server. And then be able to manage it all the way to global scale between whole different data centers. So that's the magic of being able to cover the full dynamic range performance to capacity, scale and distance, and have it be that same piece of data that's simply instantiated, where you need it, when you need it, based on the power of the metadata. >> So when you talk about object, you talk about a simplified means of interacting, it's a get-put paradigm right? >> That's right. >> So that's something that you're checking up? >> That's right, ultimately you need to also have random read and write semantics and very high performance, and today, the standard model is you put your data in object storage and then you have your application rewritten to pull it down, store it on some local storage, to work with it and then put it back. And that's great for very large-scale applications, where you can invest the effort to rewrite them. But what about the world where they want the convenience of, the data is simply there, in something that you can mount as a file system or access as object, and it can be at the highest performance of random IO against local flash, all the way to cold in the Cloud where it's cheap. >> I get it so it's like great for Shutterfly 'cause they've got the resources to rewrite the application but for everybody else. >> That's right, and that's why the web scalers pioneered the notion of object storage and we helped them with the local block to get very, very high performance. So that bifurcated world, because the spectrum got stretched so wide that a single size fits all no longer works. So you have to kind of take object on the capacity, distance and scale side, and block, local on the performance side. But what I realized early on, all the way back to Fusion-io is that it is possible to have a shared namespace, both file system and object, that can span that whole spectrum. But to do that you have to provide really powerful metadata as a separate service that has the competency to actually manage the realization of the data across the infrastructure. >> You know David you talk about data agility, so that's what we're all about right? We're all about being agile. Just conceptually today, a lot more data than you've ever had to deal with before. In a lot more places. >> It's a veritable forest. >> With a lot more demands, so just fundamentally, how do you secure that agility. How can you provide that kind of reliability and agility, in that environment, like the challenge for you. >> Oh yeah. Well the challenge really goes back to the fact that the network storage protocols haven't had innovation for like 20 years because of the world of NAS being so dominant by a few players, well one. There really hasn't been a lot of innovation. Y'know NFSv3 three has been around for decades. NFSv4 didn't really happen. It was slower and worse off. At the heart of the storage networking protocols for presenting a file system, it hadn't even been enhanced to be able to communicate across hostile networks. So how are you going to use that at the kind of scale and distance of cloud, right? So what I did, after leaving Fusion-io, was I went and teamed up with the world's top experts. We're talking here about Trent Micklebus, the Linux Kernel author and maintainer of the storage networking stack. And we have spent the last five plus years fixing the fundamental plumbing that makes it possible to bring the shared file semantic into something that becomes cloud native. And that really is two things. One is about the ability to scale, both performance, capacity, in the metadata and in the data. And you couldn't do that before because NAS systems fundamentally have the metadata and data together. Splitting the two allows you to scale them both. So scale is one. Also the ability to secure it over large distances and networks, the ability to operate in an eventually consistent, to work across multiple datacenters. NAS had never made the multi-datacenter leap. Or the securing it across other networks, it just hadn't got there. But that is actually secondary compared to the fact that the world of NAS is very focused on the infrastructure guys and the storage admin. And what you have to do is elevate the discussion to be about the data user and empower them with powerful metadata to do self service. And as a service so that they can completely automate all of the concerns about the infrastructure. 'Cause if there's anything that's cloud, it's being able to delegate and hand off the infrastructure concerns, and you simply can't do that when you're focused at it from a storage administration and data janitorial kind of model. >> So I want to pause for a second and just talk to our audience and just stress how important it is to pay attention to this man. So there's no such thing as a sure thing in business. But there is one sure thing that is if David Flynn's involved you're going to disrupt something so you disrupted Scuzzy, the horrible storage stack. So when you hear things today like NVME and CAPPY and Atomic Rights and storage class memory, you got it all started. Fusion-io. >> That's right. >> And that was your vision that really got that started up. When I used to talk to people about that they would say I'm crazy, and you educated myself and Floyer and now you see it coming to fruition today. So you're taking aim at decades old infrastructure and protocols called NAS, and trying to do the same thing at Cloud scale, which is obviously something you know a lot about. >> That's right. I mean if you think about it. The spectrum of data, goes from performance on the one hand to ease of manageability, distance and scale, cost capacity versus cost performance. And that's inherent to our physical universe because it takes time to propagate information to a distance and to get ease of manageability to encode things very, very tight to get capacity efficiency, takes time, which works against performance. And as technology advances the spectrum only gets wider, and that's why we're stuck to the point of having to bifurcate it, that performance is locally attached flash. And that's what I pioneered with flash in the server in NVME. I told everybody, EMC, SAN, it sucks. If you want performance put flash in the server. Now we're saying if you want ease of use and manageability there's a better way to do that than NAS, and even object storage. It's to separate the metadata as a distinct control plane that is put in charge of managing data through very rich and powerful metadata, and that puts the data owner in control of their data. Not just across different types of storage in the performance capacity spectrum, but also across on-prem and in the Cloud, and across multi-cloud. 'Cause the Cloud after all is just another big storage silo. And given the inertia of data, they've got you by the balls when they've got all the data there. (laughing) I'm sorry, I know I'm at AWS I should be careful what I say. >> Well this is live. >> Yeah, okay so they can't censor us, right. So just like the storage vendors of yesteryear, would charge you an arm and a leg when their arrays were out of service, to get out of your service, because they knew that if you were trying to extend the service life of that, that that's because it was really hard for you to get the data off of it because you had to suffer application downtime and all of that. In the same fashion, when you have your data in the Cloud, the egress costs are so expensive. And so this is all about putting the data owner in control of the data by giving them a rich powerful metadata platform to do that. >> You always want to have strategies that give you flexibility, exit strategies if things don't work out, so that's fascinating. I know we got to wrap, but give us the low-down on the company, the funding, what can you share with us. Go-to-market, et cetera. >> So it's a tightly held company. I was very successful financially. So from that point of view we're... >> Self-funded. >> Self-funded, funded from angels. I made some friends with Fusion-io right? So from that point of view yeah, it's the highest power team you can get. I mean these are great guys, the Linux Kernel maintainer on the storage networking stack. This was a heavy lift because you have to fix the fundamental plumbing in the way storage networking works so that you can, it's like a directories service for data, and then all the management service. This has been a while in the making, but it's that foundational engineering. >> You love heavy lifts. >> I love hard problems. >> I feel like I mis-introduced you, I should have said the great disruptor is what I should have said. >> Well, we'll see. I think disrupting the performance side was a pure play and very easy. Disrupting the ease of use side of the data spectrum, that's the fun one that's actually so transformative because it touches the people that use the data. >> Well best of luck. It was really, I'm excited for ya. >> Thanks for joining us David. Appreciate the time. David Flynn joined up from Hammerspace, and back with more on theCUBE at AWS re:Invent. (upbeat music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, Covering NAB 2017, brought to you by HGST. >> Welcome back to the NAB show. Lisa Martin here with Jeff Frick, we have had an amazing Day One. Wrapping up the end of a really informative day, Jeff. I don't know about you, but the, just the theme of the NAB Conference this year being that the M.E.T. effect is >> Right, right. >> convergence of media, entertainment, technology, and so many different types of technology, was really very exciting, so much innovation going on. So much opportunity. And we've talked to a variety of guests today from those who are involved in film and broadcast and lots of different sectors, to sports broadcasting and really just a very, very exciting... I feel like we're at this tipping point of what's going to happen next. >> Right, right. The themes that we see over and over continue. All about democratization of data, all about using data to make your decisions, even within storytelling you want to use data. And there is data that will correlate to certain types of success and not success. A really interesting conversation around how do you build a movie trailer and what percentage of the trailer has the star in it or not, depending on the star, and on who you're targeting with that particular trailer, the answer to that question is different. So, it's a lot of interest. How a cloud is democratized, all this horsepower that's now available to basically anyone if they can scramble up the budget, they can apply the same kind of massive compute power to rendering and other processes as what was exclusive to just the biggest shops before. So it's just interesting how it continues to be the same themes over and over, and it's impacting this media and entertainment industry in the same ways it's impacting travel and healthcare, transportation, IT, everything else. >> Exactly. We talked about before, the data-driven decisions and as we look at streaming services like Netflix, they've got the advantage of knowing everything, and I think we talked about this in the open this morning, everything about us. One of the things that I learned today was they have that advantage, but one of the things they couldn't do until they started creating their own content was change content. You look at the film industry and filmmakers and writers who have historically, it's been a very qualitative intuition-based process, where now they've got data at their power that they can extract more value from and make data-driven decisions. And we're seeing, to your point, across industries that kind of bringing in artificial intelligence, machine learning, leveraging data science to help make decisions that can help really level the playing field for, like you said, some of the big studios that have the money for real-time cloud rendering or had it a while ago, to now some of the smaller ones that can do that and achieve similar economies of scale that they wouldn't have been able to do on their own. >> Right. The other big trend that we see over and over, Lisa, is this idea that before data wasn't always considered an asset. That might be hard for people to fathom that are kind of recent to this world where of course data's an asset. No, data was a liability. It was expensive. I think in one of your interviews, they didn't keep dailies, because dailies were expensive. They didn't keep this stuff. What's interesting in the context of film, if a particular film becomes really important piece of work, you want to treasure it, you want to keep it. You know, we had Sundance on, talking about archiving all this fantastic material, artwork, cinema, whatever you want to call it. So the fact now that in this industry too, because storage is less expensive, but more importantly, they see the value of the data exceeds the cost of storing it, now they just want more storage, more storage, more storage. 'Cause you don't want to delete anything, and of course, it's all generated digitally today in this industry. >> Right, that's a great point that you brought up, where we were talking with the VP of Marketing at HGST, who was talking with one of the major studios, they filmed this scene that was beautifully shot for I think it was a couple hundred extras in the scene, looked back and thought, you know, we should have filmed that for virtual reality. And because they didn't save the dailies previously, they had to recreate the entire thing. So to your point of looking at the value of data, it's now also, you're right, the economies of storage are going down and there's a lot of technologies, flash, hybrid, that are really enabling it to be readily available. But it's also, this data that's now valuable, is creating new opportunities. It's generating new revenue streams. It's something that companies like a Netflix or even broadcast television can utilize to find different ways of providing relevant content to their viewers. >> Right, right. As you said, things to learn. I learned today that, you know, there are so many versions of a particular media asset that are created, for sensitivities that are around a particular country, obviously now for virtual reality, for all types of different playback mechanisms, so they need to keep everything and create many permutations of everything. So again data makes possible, absolutely. And there's a whole 'nother round coming, right, which is all around the analysis of the frame in the video to get the better metadata. And that's just a whole 'nother rash of improvement that's coming down the line. We heard a number of people today talk about all the metadata and how important the metadata is to capture along the process. But it's going to get even deeper in terms of the analysis of the frame level for these pictures, exposing that out, to other kind of machine learning algorithms, sterch, etc., so that it becomes an even better world for the consumer to find, consume and share that which is of interest to them. >> Absolutely. One of the things that I find interesting is how much content is being created by people that probably don't really realize they're creating the content. Everyone's connected. We talked about we had the independent security evaluator, Ted Harrington, on the program today, who was talking about security, not just in the context of media and entertainment, but the fact that it's a very relevant issue. We know it as an issue in lots of other industries. He was actually saying that it is, the media and entertainment industry is actually pretty good, where security, cyber-security is concerned, securing connected devices, where it seems to me that they could be potentially sharing some best practices with some of the other industries that might still think of security as a nice to have. >> Right, right, no. We saw it with Sony, they got hacked earlier, I guess it's been years now, time flies. So security is very important but obviously the hacking of dvds back in the day, which was a big deal. But now it's all digital and you know the windows to make money on these for the big releases, at the big moment, is relatively short. It's a super competitive business. So, security is definitely a very big issue. It's exciting. The other thing that's kind of interesting is the democratization of the power of all these tools. The thing that scares me a little bit, Lisa, and I see this in a lot of big budget movies, is sometimes I think the tech gets in the way of the storytelling. And I think it's a crutch to lean on cool special effects and cool stuff, and forget about you have to tell a story to make it interesting. And if you don't tell a story, it's not. And we talked on one of the interviews today, about even commercials. And we've seen commercials. You know, Coke hasn't advertised "brown sugar water" for a very, very long time, it's all about the emotion of the Coca-Cola. It's about being part of a community. So to start to use actual data to drive the narratives in the commercials when you're not trying to sell a billion dollar movie, you're trying to sell an entire factory production run of a new automobile, the stakes go even higher, your touch points are even lower. So again this whole theme over and over, data driven decisions based on AI, based on measuring the right things, based on knowing your consumer better, because you have to, or else they'll just whoosh, swipe to some other piece of content. >> Exactly, exactly. Yeah I think those were the very pervasive themes that we saw here. But I think there's just tremendous opportunity. It's almost like we're at the tipping point. We had Kevin Bailey on, as well, from Atomic >> Jeff: Atomic Fiction. >> And conductor, and he was saying six years ago, when he had this hunch on cloud where to try to do rendering in real time for big movies like Dead Pool, for example, The Walk, one of my favorite movies, would take a tremendous amount of time. And he said to be able to do this with the speed that we need and the agility and flexibility, a fixed solution is not optimal. So he was really kind of leading edge in that space. And now we're seeing technology as pervasive. But you're right, there can be an overuse of it. So it's really about finding this balance. I think we had a great spectrum of guests on the show today that really showed us all of the different facets, and we've probably just scratched the surface, right? >> Oh, definitely. >> That you can look through to really understand what makes good content, emotional, what makes it successful, and what enables the audience to be in that control of this data that is democratized all over the place. >> Yeah, to get emotionally involved. There's some great lines. It's all about emotion and connecting in a hyper-competitive world for attention. It's really an attention competition these days. >> Lisa: That's a good point. >> It's much harder than it's ever been. >> It is. >> All right, well we've got two more days. >> Lisa: We do. >> So get a good night's sleep. I'll get a good night's sleep. You should get a good night's sleep. We'll be back for Day Two at NAB 2017 with Lisa Martin, I'm Jeff Frick, checking out with The Cube. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. 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>> Voiceover: Live from Austen, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker, in support from its ecosystem partners. >> And we're back. Hi I'm Stu Miniman joined by Jim Kobielus and this is theCUBE, worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Happy to have on the program, Scott McCarty, who is technical product marketing for containers with Red Hat, thanks so much for joining us! >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright so, obviously this is the big container show, You know, Red Hat, I saw when you talk about the number of contributors, you're one of the top contributors there, but first tell us a little bit about your role at Red Hat, how long you've been there, some of your passions, what do you work on? >> Yeah for sure. So I've been at Red Hat six years and I started actually as a solutions architect, six-ish years ago, came from a startup before that, and so been in the operations space for a long time, did a lot of programming, background in anthropology computer science. Yeah. >> You're dating yourself, you call it programming >> I know, I know! >> Because it's coding now! >> I know, I know! (laughs) >> I'm like, yeah, I used to program but, uh, what's this, this coding stuff. >> I am dating myself! >> Did you say anthropology? >> I did. >> Well we've got to connect it with Red Hat at some point in our interview now. >> It matters in the culture of things. >> James: Okay, yeah. >> You know, culture is important. (laughing) So did you know, a very wide swath of our portfolio I understand from being a solutions architect and then about two years ago moved into, well when Docker first started off, you know, got into containers and got pretty heavy and that, and was excited about it, and then moved into just doing strictly technical product marketing for only containers. You know, for focusing on containers. >> Okay, so talk to us about how containers fits into the Red Hat portfolio. >> So containers is really something that touches every part of our portfolio, because whether at the lower levels of like the Linux layers you know that's the actual nuts and bolts of, you know, what builds the containers and what the containers really are. But then at the other end of the stack, if you look at our storage and our middleware, containerizing those applications and then figuring out how to package them in a cloud-native way and making them work in a cloud-native way, so that they can operate inside of something like OpenShift, there's a lot of work to be done there. So there's a wide swath of tech across our entire portfolio of work around containers going on. >> Yeah, in the keynote this morning I like there's the maturation of the use cases because it sounds a lot like, you know, remember of the early days of Linux, or the early days of virtualization, once again they've put together a load of use cases and are like, "Oh, we're running applications," >> Scott: Yes. >> In a wide variety of applications in containers, so what are your customers seeing, you know, any kind of cool use cases or things that people are doing and anything new that they're doing that they couldn't do before? >> Well, so, I'll give you a little take on that, so even for the last two years that I've been going out all over the world to talk to customers, I've noticed that there's a little bit of a disconnect between the industry and kind of only focusing on the app dev side of things. I think today, kind of hearing Soloman talk about some of the more traditional use cases, traditional or non-cloud native or, we don't like to say the word legacy but people say it. >> Stu: Kind of wrapping-- >> I would argue those have been a huge portion of what people are experimenting with and playing with, but we don't talk about them. Also I think there's a little bit of a notion of this mode one, mode two kind of mentality, but that limits the way we think about it into only production workloads. So I have some really funny use cases. So I'll give you some examples, network scanning. So, like, there are some vendors that provide network scanning software and I was a couple of months back up in Canada talking to ATTO Co., and they mentioned they they were actually putting a commercial network scanning package in containers because when you think about, you see a production oracle database and, you know, you talk to the oracle DBA, and you say, "Hey I'm going to install "this giant network scanning package on your server." And they're like, "No. You're not doing that." (laughing) So a container makes it very easy to just bring that application down, do this network scanning, troubleshoot something and then delete it, it's gone. That's just a tools use case, right? But it's something that people have been doing for a long time but nobody is really talking about it. Another one is even affecting business more transformationally. So if you think about the way startups hire people, this happened to a friend of mine that's a CTO at a startup. They're interviewing a developer, it's very common to send them home with a homework program, you know? And so they send them home with the Ruby on Rails program, and he comes back with a GitHub Repo that has like a database schema file for Postgres and a working Ruby on Rails application. And there are two hiring managers. The one hiring manager says, "Okay I'm going to," And I'm sorry, also he says, "By the way, I have a Docker Repo, "you can go out and pull it down if you want, "just run my program and see if it works." The one hiring manager decides to try to rebuild it from scratch, takes about two hours messing around trying to get the database schema to work because he used the newer version of Postgres than she had on her laptop, you can imagine the dependency, you know, chaos that is. The other hiring manager literally just said, "Okay, just Docker run this thing." And then, kind of ran the container and looked at the code. The one spent two hours, you know, getting it up on her own, the other one spent five minutes. And so now if I can give you back the most valuable people in your organization, these very, very technical architects that are doing hiring decisions and trying to evaluate really critical core developers for your startup, if I can give you back two hours, and if you have to interview 10 of those, that's 20 hours of your time, that's transformational, that's really digital transformation, essentially, but for a startup, you know. Like, we don't want to have to spend all this analog time doing that. In addition to the traditional applications like databases and even, you know, typical web servers, all of those things, but not just mode two or cloud native, but also just traditional workloads. And we've been seeing that for a long time, I mean, this is similar to the virtualization journey, it's like you said, everyone said it was impossible and even two years ago was saying, "Wait a minute, just wait for this, it'll happen," and we're seeing it happen. >> Yeah. Anything particular? You know, we've made a lot of progress, but we're still working on storage, networking seems to be a little bit more mature than storage you know, what are you guys helping to work on at Red Hat and what do you want to see going forward that we come here a year from now we're going to say, "Oh, cool, we knocked down this barrier, or we're doing something even better." >> So one of the things I'm excited about is kind of if you look at the integration points between cloud infrastructure software like OpenStack and even the cloud providers, and then something like our OpenShift solution or Kubernetes, if you look at the storage and the network interactions, today the networking is pretty mature but the interaction is pretty static, so if you provision OpenStack, you know, say you have an OpenStack environment, you want to run OpenShift on top of it, you would go pre-provision kind of a VLAN, you know a subnet for it, and then you would- we rebuild, actually, key templates to deploy OpenShift inside of it, within that subnet. In the future we're investing in Courier and you know, a year from now I'd like to see some really dynamic interactions happening between OpenShift and OpenStack. I'd like to see an administer say, "Oh, I need to provision a new project "and that project needs its own network isolation." When that happens, OpenShift goes and talks to OpenStack, provisions a subnet that's encrypted with OVS, and actually it already is kind of set up, comes back, says, "Okay cool," and then can provision a project inside that. On the storage side we've actually already got that going, So we have what's called dynamic provisioning, so if you need storage inside of OpenShift and you have a persistent volume claim that needs access to storage, we actually have something called a dynamic provisionary that will actually go create that person's environment and go to talk the the storage and carve off a LUN of exactly the size you want or a NFS share of the exact size that you want. So, so, I'd like to see more and more of that dynamic provisioning happening between the infrastructure in a container environment. >> Is that as capable, uh, should we build into Kubernetes or totally independent of that? You know what I mean-- >> So the current project is kind of neutral but it would be, kind of, think of it as almost like an interface that Kubernetes will be able to use as an interface to all the networking providers. >> James: Right. >> So it's kind of a neutral, third-party thing. Really it could be used by other things other than Kubernetes. >> I want to get your take on project Moby, that was a real interesting announcement today, to what extent, would Red Hat consider possibly using that as a tool to build custom container applications for your own product family? >> Probably the most interesting thing I found about the announcement was kind of a validation of, uh, you know already a kind of strategy that we had around Project Atomic. And if you look at Origin and Project Atomic and Fedora, you know, they mention Fedora, that model. >> James: Yeah, absolutely. >> I think it's a good model, and you'll appreciate that we appreciate it. I think that, you know, there's some validation also around the idea of an immutable host, and having control over the host and honestly I think it kind of validates that the Linux itself is not a commodity, there is something actually very technical there and you do need to actually build a dry features in that kernel to actually support the containers, because I think they made the kernel hot again, you know, in a lot of ways. So I think it's validation of that and I think that's exciting. >> At the beginning we talked about culture a little bit, you know, we've interview Jim Whitehurst, so you know, I've read his book, >> Scott: Yeah. >> You know, the open organization, >> James: The anthropology. (laughs) >> You know, when you come to a show like this where, I mean, today we talked about the developer, we talked lots about open-source and, right, you know there's Linux Kit, there's the Moby Project, you know, all these different things out in open-source, what's your take on this ecosystem and what's going on in the industry? >> I think ecosystems are harder to build than what people first think. I don't think you can just, so if you look at certain, you know if I were to analyze the way open source works, you know there sot of open-core models which are like, "Let's give enough away to get free marketing." Then there's kind of open-source models where we give away all the code but we don't really have a community, we don't really take patches, we just put it out there, use it however you want, that's fine. And then I think there's truly community-driven open-source which is what Red Hat really tries to focus on. So if you're able to get Fedora, it's truly a community. I think building those and maintaining those takes a lot of nurturing and a lot of care and a lot of love and feeding. And I also think it takes a lot of discipline around allowing these best-of-breed ideas to kind of happen the way they're going to happen and then also fail if they don't work. And so that can be tough, you know. If you look at the model of a lot of startups, it's more kind of like unilaterally make decisions and then kind of release it and then if it sticks, and it's fail-fast. The community-driven model is a lot harder to handle because consensus is harder to build and so you've seen Jim talk about this, I mean one of the dangers in an open organization of our size is consensus, finding consensus and not going towards a completely consensus-driven decision model. But that's hard because you have to satisfy everybody in the community and make sure everybody's getting something out and everybody's putting something in. And so it's tough. >> It's funny, I remember in OpenStack for a couple of years, it's like, "Do we need, you know, the fanatical dictator "of this ecosystem?" Red Hat, obviously is not, you know, a fanatical dictator of its community. >> You can't win. Do you think Docker has a fanatical dictator of their community? (laughter) >> I, I, I'm sure the-- >> Or is the person a visionary, I mean, you know they'll put the positive euphemism on it. >> Yeah, yeah. Or the joking word in the community is the benevolent dictator. >> Yeah. >> The benevolent dictator for life, I think some of the communities work that way. >> Yeah. >> I think if you look at Python, you look at Linux, you know, it works that way. But if you've all got bigger projects, and I don't want to date myself, but you think about KDE and Gnome, and some of those, there's no benevolent dictator, they're so big and so wide-reaching again. Such, you know, wide-use case differences between what people do with them, but I think it's hard to have that. There are visionaries, you know, within the group. And even that's true in the kernel, I mean if you look at what's happened, you know, Linus has other generals essentially that kind of, I mean it's become a very big community, a very boisterous community. I think that that takes again, though, a lot of discipline and maintenance to make that happen and keep that alive. >> Alright, Scott, to take us on home, why don't you give us a little view as to what Red Hat has going on this week, of course you guys have your big show Red Hat Summit coming up in a couple of weeks, we'll have theCUBE there, I'm excited to be there, also, but you know, talk a little bit about this week and what you guys are doing. >> So this week, you know, we're excited because we have kind of a bunch of three-five You know, I don't know if you guys, have you guys heard about Atomic Image? We released Atomic Image? >> So it was not discussed in Brian's interview this morning, so. >> Okay! >> We would love to hear a little bit about it. >> So Atomic Image, we've kind of looked at some of the use cases around how people are consuming containers and I've blogged on about this and talked and honestly it's pretty deep technically when you kind of get into it. It's about having, you know, Soloman talked about it today, you know, image size matters, and there is definitely a hunger for smaller images, you don't want to have stuff that you don't want. But that is also a very fine-line balance. So the challenge being that the typical way that enterprises operate is that they have a core build where they will add all the pieces that core build that they think should be everywhere, right? Because you don't, like, say you need a fundamental core library like glibc, you wouldn't add that to all of the different applications, you would add it once and then inherit it in all the, so it's kind of the dry model, do not repeat yourself, right? So when you get into this dry model you got to balance the size of that base image versus, you know and it's flexibility versus conciseness, and you know, how concise it is. Atomic Image, though, is meant for, we essentially released a very minimal image that matters for those very concise applications, so if you look at like a C binary that's very small, maybe all it needs is DNS resolutions, some other services from the OS from the userspace, it doesn't need much, but it's a real small binary, it wants a really small image to live on. So we released something called Atomic Image really targeting those use cases-- >> I don't know if I remember if Atomic is launched, so it sounds a lot like what Docker announced with the Linux Kit today, too. >> So, it's, flip-side of it-- >> Maybe you could compare contrast a little bit. >> Yeah so, so I would compare Linux Kit to Atomic Coast, which we've had for a long time. >> Stu: Okay. >> Which is the Kernel and systemd and kind of what runs the containers, right? But now we've released a different userspace setup that's smaller-- >> Stu: Oh I got that, okay. >> For, to run on top of, you know. >> So like an agile minimum viable product, this is a minimum viable container >> Yes. >> For a particular function. >> Yeah exactly, like BusyBox or some of the smaller images that you want to play with. >> And Scott, do you guys have their website or some documentation that you recommend people starting with on your sites? Yeah absolutely, I swear, I think Project Atomic's a great place to start. >> Stu: And that's in the blogs, I'm assuming, right? >> It is, if you blog for Atomic Image, too, you'll find a REL Blog entry, so REL Blog's a good place to kind of find some of that stuff, so relblog.redhat.com And then also if, if you look on just redhat.com. And also out container catalog is a good place to actually go get started with that. So if you go to access.redhat.com/containers. >> James: We'll get to that. >> Scott McCardy, it's great catching up with you. Next time we have you on we got to get the story behind "fatherlinux" as your-- >> Yes! (laughs) >> Alright, but we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017, thank you for watching theCUBE.