>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel and their ecosystem partners. >> And welcome back to our continuing coverage here on theCUBE of AWS re:Invent, we're on day three of three days of wall to wall coverage that we've brought you here from the Sands Expo along with David Vellante, I'm John Walls. Glad you're with us here, we're joined by David Flynn from Hammerspace, and David, good afternoon to you. >> Good afternoon. >> Been quite a year for you, right? >> Yeah. >> This has been something else. Set us up a little bit about where you've been, the journey you're on right now with Hammerspace and maybe for folks at home who aren't familiar, a little bit about what you do. >> So Hammerspace is all about data agility. We believe that data should be like the air you breathe, where you need it, when you need it, without having to think about it. Today, data's managed by copying it between the sundry different types of storage. And that's 'cause we're managing data through the storage system itself. What we want is for data to simply be there, when you need it. So it's all about data agility. >> I need to know more. So let's talk about some of your past endeavors. Fusion-io we watched you grow that company from just an idea. You solved the block storage problem, you solved the performance problems, amazing what you guys did with that company. My understanding is you're focused on file. >> That's right. >> Which is a much larger-- >> Unstructured data in general file and object. >> So a much larger proportion of the data that's out there. >> Yes. >> What's the problem that you guys are going after? >> Well at Fusion-io and this was pre-flash, now flash everybody takes it for granted. When we started it didn't really exist in the data center. And if you're using SAN, most likely it's for performance. And there's a better way to get performance with flash down in the server. Very successful with that. Now the problem is, people want the ease of managablility of having a global name space of file and object name space. And that's what we're tackling now because file is not native in the Cloud. It's kind of an afterthought. And all of these different forms of storage represents silos into which you copy data, from on-prem into cloud, between the different types of storage, from one site to another. This is what we're addressing with virtualizing the data, putting powerful metadata in control of how that data's realized across multiple data centers across the different types of storage, so that you see it as a single piece of data regardless of where it lives. >> Okay so file's not a first class citizen. You're making copies, moving data all over the place. You got copy creep going on. >> It's like cutting off Hydra's head. When you manage data by copying it you're just making more of it and that's because the metadata's down with the data. Every time you make a copy, it's a new piece of data that needs to be managed. >> So talk more about the metadata structure, architecture, what you guys are envisioning? >> Fundamentally, the technology is a separate metadata control plane that is powerful enough to present data as both file and object. And takes that powerful metadata, and puts it in control of where the data is realized, both in terms of what data center it's in, as well as what type of storage it's on, allowing you to tap into the full dynamic range of the performance of server-attached flash, of course Fusion-io, very near and dear to my heart, getting tens of millions of I-ops and tens of gigabytes per second, you can't do that across the network. You have to have the data be very agile, and be able to be promoted into the server. And then be able to manage it all the way to global scale between whole different data centers. So that's the magic of being able to cover the full dynamic range performance to capacity, scale and distance, and have it be that same piece of data that's simply instantiated, where you need it, when you need it, based on the power of the metadata. >> So when you talk about object, you talk about a simplified means of interacting, it's a get-put paradigm right? >> That's right. >> So that's something that you're checking up? >> That's right, ultimately you need to also have random read and write semantics and very high performance, and today, the standard model is you put your data in object storage and then you have your application rewritten to pull it down, store it on some local storage, to work with it and then put it back. And that's great for very large-scale applications, where you can invest the effort to rewrite them. But what about the world where they want the convenience of, the data is simply there, in something that you can mount as a file system or access as object, and it can be at the highest performance of random IO against local flash, all the way to cold in the Cloud where it's cheap. >> I get it so it's like great for Shutterfly 'cause they've got the resources to rewrite the application but for everybody else. >> That's right, and that's why the web scalers pioneered the notion of object storage and we helped them with the local block to get very, very high performance. So that bifurcated world, because the spectrum got stretched so wide that a single size fits all no longer works. So you have to kind of take object on the capacity, distance and scale side, and block, local on the performance side. But what I realized early on, all the way back to Fusion-io is that it is possible to have a shared namespace, both file system and object, that can span that whole spectrum. But to do that you have to provide really powerful metadata as a separate service that has the competency to actually manage the realization of the data across the infrastructure. >> You know David you talk about data agility, so that's what we're all about right? We're all about being agile. Just conceptually today, a lot more data than you've ever had to deal with before. In a lot more places. >> It's a veritable forest. >> With a lot more demands, so just fundamentally, how do you secure that agility. How can you provide that kind of reliability and agility, in that environment, like the challenge for you. >> Oh yeah. Well the challenge really goes back to the fact that the network storage protocols haven't had innovation for like 20 years because of the world of NAS being so dominant by a few players, well one. There really hasn't been a lot of innovation. Y'know NFSv3 three has been around for decades. NFSv4 didn't really happen. It was slower and worse off. At the heart of the storage networking protocols for presenting a file system, it hadn't even been enhanced to be able to communicate across hostile networks. So how are you going to use that at the kind of scale and distance of cloud, right? So what I did, after leaving Fusion-io, was I went and teamed up with the world's top experts. We're talking here about Trent Micklebus, the Linux Kernel author and maintainer of the storage networking stack. And we have spent the last five plus years fixing the fundamental plumbing that makes it possible to bring the shared file semantic into something that becomes cloud native. And that really is two things. One is about the ability to scale, both performance, capacity, in the metadata and in the data. And you couldn't do that before because NAS systems fundamentally have the metadata and data together. Splitting the two allows you to scale them both. So scale is one. Also the ability to secure it over large distances and networks, the ability to operate in an eventually consistent, to work across multiple datacenters. NAS had never made the multi-datacenter leap. Or the securing it across other networks, it just hadn't got there. But that is actually secondary compared to the fact that the world of NAS is very focused on the infrastructure guys and the storage admin. And what you have to do is elevate the discussion to be about the data user and empower them with powerful metadata to do self service. And as a service so that they can completely automate all of the concerns about the infrastructure. 'Cause if there's anything that's cloud, it's being able to delegate and hand off the infrastructure concerns, and you simply can't do that when you're focused at it from a storage administration and data janitorial kind of model. >> So I want to pause for a second and just talk to our audience and just stress how important it is to pay attention to this man. So there's no such thing as a sure thing in business. But there is one sure thing that is if David Flynn's involved you're going to disrupt something so you disrupted Scuzzy, the horrible storage stack. So when you hear things today like NVME and CAPPY and Atomic Rights and storage class memory, you got it all started. Fusion-io. >> That's right. >> And that was your vision that really got that started up. When I used to talk to people about that they would say I'm crazy, and you educated myself and Floyer and now you see it coming to fruition today. So you're taking aim at decades old infrastructure and protocols called NAS, and trying to do the same thing at Cloud scale, which is obviously something you know a lot about. >> That's right. I mean if you think about it. The spectrum of data, goes from performance on the one hand to ease of manageability, distance and scale, cost capacity versus cost performance. And that's inherent to our physical universe because it takes time to propagate information to a distance and to get ease of manageability to encode things very, very tight to get capacity efficiency, takes time, which works against performance. And as technology advances the spectrum only gets wider, and that's why we're stuck to the point of having to bifurcate it, that performance is locally attached flash. And that's what I pioneered with flash in the server in NVME. I told everybody, EMC, SAN, it sucks. If you want performance put flash in the server. Now we're saying if you want ease of use and manageability there's a better way to do that than NAS, and even object storage. It's to separate the metadata as a distinct control plane that is put in charge of managing data through very rich and powerful metadata, and that puts the data owner in control of their data. Not just across different types of storage in the performance capacity spectrum, but also across on-prem and in the Cloud, and across multi-cloud. 'Cause the Cloud after all is just another big storage silo. And given the inertia of data, they've got you by the balls when they've got all the data there. (laughing) I'm sorry, I know I'm at AWS I should be careful what I say. >> Well this is live. >> Yeah, okay so they can't censor us, right. So just like the storage vendors of yesteryear, would charge you an arm and a leg when their arrays were out of service, to get out of your service, because they knew that if you were trying to extend the service life of that, that that's because it was really hard for you to get the data off of it because you had to suffer application downtime and all of that. In the same fashion, when you have your data in the Cloud, the egress costs are so expensive. And so this is all about putting the data owner in control of the data by giving them a rich powerful metadata platform to do that. >> You always want to have strategies that give you flexibility, exit strategies if things don't work out, so that's fascinating. I know we got to wrap, but give us the low-down on the company, the funding, what can you share with us. Go-to-market, et cetera. >> So it's a tightly held company. I was very successful financially. So from that point of view we're... >> Self-funded. >> Self-funded, funded from angels. I made some friends with Fusion-io right? So from that point of view yeah, it's the highest power team you can get. I mean these are great guys, the Linux Kernel maintainer on the storage networking stack. This was a heavy lift because you have to fix the fundamental plumbing in the way storage networking works so that you can, it's like a directories service for data, and then all the management service. This has been a while in the making, but it's that foundational engineering. >> You love heavy lifts. >> I love hard problems. >> I feel like I mis-introduced you, I should have said the great disruptor is what I should have said. >> Well, we'll see. I think disrupting the performance side was a pure play and very easy. Disrupting the ease of use side of the data spectrum, that's the fun one that's actually so transformative because it touches the people that use the data. >> Well best of luck. It was really, I'm excited for ya. >> Thanks for joining us David. Appreciate the time. David Flynn joined up from Hammerspace, and back with more on theCUBE at AWS re:Invent. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2018. (upbeat music) Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2018 everybody. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm with my co-host Peter Burris. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is day three of our wall to wall coverage of IBM Think. The inaugural Think conference. Good friend Eric Herzog is here. He runs marketing for IBM storage. They're kicking butt. You've been in three years, making a difference, looking great, new Hawaiian shirt. (laughter) Welcome back my friend. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Good to see you. >> Always love being on theCUBE. >> So this is crazy. I mean, I miss Edge, I loved that show, but you know, one stop shopping. >> Well, a couple things. One when you look at other shows in the tech industry, they tend to be for the whole company so we had a lot of small shows and that was great and it allowed focus, but the one thing it didn't do is every division, including storage, we have all kinds of IBM customers who are not IBM storage customers. So this allows us to do some cross pollination and go and talk to those IBM customers who are not IBM storage customers which we can always do at a third party show like a VM World or Oracle World, but you know those guys tend to have a show that's focused on every division they have. So it could be a real advantage for IBM to do it that way, give us more mass. And it also, you know, helps us spend more on third party shows to go after a whole bunch of new prospects and new clients in other venues. >> You, you've attracted some good storage DNA. Yourself and some others, Ed Walsh was on yesterday. He said Joe Tucci made a comment years ago Somebody asked him what's your biggest fear. If IBM wakes up and figures it out in storage. Looks like you guys are figuring it out. >> Whipping it up and figuring it out. >> Four quarters of consistent growth, you know redefining your portfolio towards software defined. One of the things we've talked about a lot, and I know you brought this was the discipline around you know communicating, getting products to market, faster cycles, because people buy products and solutions right? So you guys have really done a good job there, but what's your perspective on how you guys have been winning in the last year or so? >> Well I think there's a couple of things. One is pure accident, okay. Which is not just us, is one of the leaders in the industry, where I used to work and Ed used to work has clearly stubbed its toe and has lost its way and that has benefited not only IBM but actually even some of our other competitors have grown at the expense of, you know, EMC. And they're not doing as well as they used to do and they've been cutting head count and you know, there's a big difference in the engineering spend of what EMC does versus what Michael Dell likes to spend on engineering. We have been continuing to invest. Sales resources, marketing resources, tech support resources in the field, technical resources from a development perspective. The other thing we did as Ed came back was rationalize the portfolio. Make sure that you don't have 27 products that overlap, you have one. And maybe it has a slight overlap with the product next to it, but you don't have to have three things that do the same thing and quite honestly, IBM, before I showed up, we did have that. So that's benefited us and then I think the third thing is we've gone to a solution-oriented focus. So can we talk about, as nerdy as tracks per sector and TPI and BPI and, I mean all the way down to the hard drive or to the flash layer? Sure we can. You know what, have you ever... You guys have been doing this forever. Ever met a CIO who was a storage guy? >> No, no. CIOs don't care about storage. >> Exactly, so you've got to... >> We've had quite a couple of ex-CIOs who were storage guys. (laughter) >> So you've really got to talk about applications, workloads, and use cases. How you solve the business problems. We've created a whole set of sales tools that we call the conversations available to the IBM sales team and our business partners which is how to talk to a CIO, how to talk to a line of business owner, how to talk to the VP of software development in a global enterprise who doesn't care at all, and also to get people to understand that it's not... Storage is a critical foundation for cloud, for AI, for other workloads, but if you talk latency right off the top, especially with a CIO or the senior executive, it's like what are you talking about? What you have to say is we can make your cloud sing, we can make your cloud never go down. We can make sure that the response time on the web browser is in a second. Whereas you know Google did that test about if you click and it takes more than two and a half seconds, they go away. Well even if that's your own private cloud, guess what they do the same thing. So you've got to be able to show them how the storage enables cloud and AI and other workloads. >> Let's talk about that for a second. Because I was having a thought here. It's maybe my only interesting thought here at Think, being pretty much overwhelmed. But the thought that I had was if you think about all the things that IBM is talking about, block chain, analytics, cloud, go on down the list, none of them would have been possible if we were still working at 10, 20, 30 milliseconds of wait time on a disc head. The fundamental change that made all of this possible is the move from disc to flash. >> Eric: Right. >> Storage is the fundamental change in this industry that has made all of this possible. What do you think about that? >> So I would agree with that. There is no doubt and that's part of the reason I had said storage is a critical foundation for cloud or AI workloads. Whether you're talking not just pure performance but availability and reliability. So we have a public reference Medicat. They deliver healthcare services as a service, so it's a software as a service model. Well guess what? They provide patient records into hospitals and clinics that tend to be focused at the university level like the University of California Health Center for the students. Well guess what? If not only does it need to be fast, if it's not available then you can't get the healthcare records can you? So, and while it's a cloud model, you have to be able to have that availability characteristic, reliability. So storage is, again, that critical foundation. If you build a building in a major city and the foundation isn't very good, the building falls over. And storage is that critical foundation for any cloud, any AI, and even for the older workloads like an SAP Hana or a Oracle workload, right? If, again if the storage is not resilient, oh well you can't access the shipping database or the payroll database or the accounts receivable database cause the storage is down and then obviously if it's not fast, it takes forever to get Dave Vellante's bill, right. And that's a waste of time. >> So it's plumbing, but the plumbing's getting more intelligent isn't it? >> Well that's the other thing we've done is we are automating everything. We are imbuing our software, and we announced this, that our range are going to be having an intelligent infrastructure software plane if you will that is going to help do diagnostics. For example, in one of the coming releases, if a customer allows access, if a power supply is going bad, we will tell them it's going bad and it'll automatically send a PO to IBM with a serial number, the address, and say please send me a new power supply before the power supply actually fails. But it also means they don't have to stock a power supply on their shelf which means they have a higher cost of cap ex. And for a big shop there's a bunch of power supplies, a bunch of flash modules, maybe hard drives if they're still dinosauric in how they behave. And they have those things and they buy them from us and our competitors. So imbuing it with intelligence, automating everything we can automate. So automatically tiering data, moving data around from tier to tier, moving it out to the cloud, what we do with the reuse of backup sets. Instead of doing it the old way of back up. And I know you've got Sam Warner coming on later today and he'll talk about modern data protection, how that is revolutionizing what dev ops and other guys can do with their, essentially, what we would've called in the old days back up data. >> Let's talk about your spectrum launch. Spectrum NAS, give us some plugs for that. What's the update there? >> So we announced on the 20th of February a whole set of changes regarding the Spectrum family. We have things around Spectrum PROTECT, with GDPR, Spectrum PROTECT Plus as a service as well as some additional granularity features and I know Sam Warner's going to come on later today. Spectrum NAS software defined network attached storage. Okay, we're not going to sell any infrastructure with it. We have for big data analytics our Spectrum scale, but think of Spectrum NAS as traditional network attached storage workloads. Home directories. Things like that. Small file service where Spectrum scale has one of our public references, and they were here actually at Edge a couple of years ago, one of the largest banks in the world, their entire fraud detection system is based on Spectrum scale. That's not what you would use Spectrum NAS for. So, and it's often common as you know in the file world to have sort of a traditional file system and then a big one that does big data, analytics and AI and is very focused on that and so that's what we've done. Spectrum NAS is a software only, software defined, rounds out our block, now gives a traditional file. We had scale out file already and IBM cloud object storage is also software defined. >> Well how about the get put world. What's happening there? I mean we've been waiting for it to explode. >> Ah so the get put world is all about NVME. NVME, new storage protocol as you know it's been scuzzy forever. Scuzzy and/or SATA. And it's been that way for years and years and years and years, but now you've got flash. As Peter pointed out spinning disc is really slow. Flash is really fast and the protocol of Scuzzy was not keeping up with the performance so NVME is coming out. We announced an NVME over InfiniBand Fabric solution. We announced that we will be adding a fiber channel. NVME fabric based and also in ethernet. Those will come and one of the key things we're doing is our hardware, our infrastructure's all ready to go so all you have to do is a non-disruptive software upgrade and for anyone who's bought today, it'll be free. So you can start off with fiber channel or ethernet fabrics today or InfiniBand fabric now that we can ship, but on the ethernet and fiber channel side, they buy the array today and then later this year in the second half software upgrade and then they'll have NVME over fiber channel or NVME over ethernet. >> Explain why NVME and NVME over fabric is so important generally but in particular for this sort of new class of applications that's emerging. >> Well the key thing with the new class of applications is they're incredibly performance and latency sensitive. So we're trying to do real artificial intelligence and they're trying to, for example, I just did a presentation and one of our partners, Mark III has created a manufacturing system using AI and Watson. So you use cameras all over, which has been common, but it actually will learn. So it'll tell you whether cans are bad. Another one of our customers is in the healthcare space and they're working on a genomic process for breast cancer along with radiology and they've collected over 20 million radiological samples of breast cancer analysis. So guess what, how are you going to sort through that? Are you or I could sort through 20 million images? Well guess what, AI can do that, narrow it down, and say whether it's this type of breast cancer or that type of breast cancer. And then the doctor can decide what to do about it. And that's all empowered by AI and that requires incredible performance which is what NVME delivers. Again, that underlying foundation of AI, in this case going from flash with Scuzzy, flash to NVME, increasing the power that AI can deliver because of its storage foundation. >> But even those are human time transactions. What about when we start taking the output of that AI and put it directly into operational transactions that have to run like a bat out of hell. >> Which is where NVME will come in as well. You cannot have the performance that we've had these last almost 30 years with Scuzzy and even slower when you talk about SATA. That's just not going to cut it with flash. And by the way, you know there's going to be things beyond flash that will be faster than flash. So flash two, flash three, it's just the way it was with the hard drive world, right? It was 2400 RPM then 36 then 54 then 72 then 10k then 15/5. >> More size, more speed, lower energy. >> Which is what NVME will help you do and you can do it as a fabric infrastructure or you can do it in the array itself. You dual in box and out of box connectivity with NVME increasing the performance within your array and increasing the performance outside of the array as you go out to your host and out into your switching infrastructure. >> So I'm loving Think. It's too many people to count, I've been joking all week. 30,000 40,000. We're still tallying up. I'm going to miss Edge for sure. I'm going to miss the updates in the you know, late spring. But so let's get 'em now. What can we expect? What are you trying to accomplish in the next six to nine months? What should we be looking for without giving any confidential information. >> Well we've already publicly announced that we'll be fleshing out NVME across the board. >> Dave: Right. >> So we already publicly announced that. That will be a big to-do. The other thing we're looking at is continuing to imbue what we do with additional solution sets. So that's something we have a wide set of software. For example, we publicly announced this week that the Versa stack, all flash array will be available with IBM cloud private with a CYSCO validated design in May. So again, in this case taking a very powerful system, the Versa Stack all flash, which already delivers ROI and TCO, but still is if you will a box. Now that box is a converge box with compute with switching with all flash array and with a virtual environment. But now we're putting, again as a bundle, IBM cloud private on there. So you'll see more and more of those types of solutions both with the rest of IBM but also from third parties. So if that offers the right solution set to cut capx/opx, automate processes, and again, for the cloud workloads, AI workloads and any workloads, storage is that foundation. The critical foundation. So we will make sure that we'll have solutions wrapped around that throughout the rest of this year. >> So it's great to see the performance in the storage division. Great people. We're under counting it. We're not even counting all the cloud storage that goes and counts somewhere else. You guys are doing a great job. You know, best of luck and really keep it up Eric, thanks very much for coming back on theCUBE. >> Great thank you very much. >> We really appreciate it. >> Thanks again Peter. >> Alright keep it right there everybody we'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. You're watching theCUBE live from Think 2018. (upbeat music)