>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. It's virtual this year. We're not in person because of the pandemic. We're doing the remote Cube Cube Virtual were the Cube virtual. I'm your host, John for here with Andy Jassy, the CEO of Amazon Web services, in for his annual at the end of the show comes on the Cube. This year, it's virtual Andy. Good to see you remotely in Seattle or in Palo Alto. Uh, Dave couldn't make it in a personal conflict, but he says, Hello, great to see you. >>Great to see you as well, John. It's an annual tradition. On the last day of reinvent. I wish we were doing it in person, but I'm glad at least were able to do it. Virtually >>the good news is, I know you could arrested last night normally at reinvent you just like we're all both losing our voice at the end of the show. At least me more than you, your and we're just at the end of like okay, Relief. It happens here. It's different. It's been three weeks has been virtual. Um, you guys had a unique format this year went much better than I expected. It would go on because I was pretty skeptical about these long, um, multiple days or weeks events. You guys did a good job of timing it out and creating these activations and with key news, starting with your keynote on December 1st. Now, at the end of the three weeks, um, tell me, are you surprised by the results? Can you give us, Ah, a feeling for how you think everything went? What's what's your take So far as we close out reinvented >>Well, I think it's going really well. I mean, we always gnome or a Z get past, reinvent and you start, you know, collecting all the feedback. But we've been watching all the metrics and you know, there's trade offs. Of course, now I think all of us giving our druthers would be together in Las Vegas, and I think it's hard to replace that feeling of being with people and the excitement of learning about things together and and making decisions together after you see different sessions that you're gonna make big changes in your company and for your customer experience. And yeah, and there's a community peace. And there's, you know, this from being there. There's a concert. The answer. I think people like being with one another. But, you know, I think this was the best that any of us could imagine doing doing a virtual event. And we had to really reinvent, reinvent and all the pieces to it. And now I think that some of the positive trade offs are they. You get a lot mawr engagement than you would normally get in person So normally. Last year, with about 65,000 people in Las Vegas this year, we had 530,000 people registered to reinvent and over 300,000 participate in some fashion. All the sessions had a lot more people who are participating just because you remove the constraints of of travel in costs, and so there are trade offs. I think we prefer being together, but I think it's been a really good community event, um, in learning event for for our customers, and we've been really pleased with it so >>far. No doubt I would totally agree with you. I think a lot of people like, Hey, I love to walk the floor and discover Harry and Sarah Davis moments of finding an exhibit her and the exhibit hall or or attending a session or going to a party, bumping into friends and seeing making new friends. But I think one of the things I want to get your reaction to it. So I think this is comes up. And, you know, we've been doing a lot of Q virtual for the past year, and and everyone pretty much agrees that when we go back, it's gonna be a hybrid world in the sense of events as well as cloud. You know that. But you know, I think one of the things that I noticed this year with reinvent is it almost was a democratization of reinvent. So you really had to reinvent the format. You had 300,000 plus people attend 500 pending email addresses, but now you've got a different kind of beehive community. So you're a bar raiser thinker. It's with the culture of Amazon. So I gotta ask you do the economics does this new kind of extra epiphany impact you and how you raise the bar to keep the best of the face to face when it comes back. And then if you keep the virtual any thoughts on how to leverage this and kind of get more open, it was free. You guys made it free this year and people did show up. >>Yeah, it's a really good question, and it's probably a question will be better equipped to answer in a month or two after we kind of debrief we always do after reading that we spend. Actually, I really enjoy the meeting because the team, the Collective A. W s team, works so hard in this event. There's so many months across everything. All the product teams, um, you know, all the marketing folks, all the event folks, and I think they do a terrific job with it. And we we do about 2.5 3 hour debrief on everything we did, things that we thought was really well the things that we thought we could do better and all the feedback we get from our community and so I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't find things from what we tried this year that we incorporate into what we do when we're back to being a person again. You know, of course, none of us really know when we'll be back in person again. Re event happens to fall on the time of the year, which is early December. And so you with with a lot of people seemingly able to get vaccinated, probably by you know, they'd spring early summer. You could kind of imagine that we might be able to reinvent in person next year. We'll have to see e think we all hope we will. But I'm sure there are a number of pieces that we will take from this and incorporate into what we do in person. And you know, then it's just a matter of how far you go. >>Fingers crossed and you know it's a hybrid world for the Cube two and reinvent and clouds. Let's get into the announcement. I want to get your your take as you look back now. I mean, how many announcements is you guys have me and a lot of announcements this year. Which ones did you like? Which one did you think were jumping off the page, which ones resonated the most or had impact. Can you share kind of just some stats on e mean how many announcements launches you did this >>year? But we had about 100 50 different new services and features that we announced over the last three weeks and reinvent And there, you know the question you're asking. I could easily spend another three hours like my Kino. You know, answering you all the ones that I like thought were important. You know, I think that, you know, some of the ones I think that really stood out for people. I think first on the compute side, I just think the, um the excitement around what we're doing with chips, um, is very clear. I think what we've done with gravitas to our generalized compute to give people 40% better price performance and they could find in the latest generation X 86 processors is just It's a huge deal. If you could save 40% price performance on computer, you get a lot more done for less on. Then you know some of the chip work we're doing in machine learning with inferential on the inference chips that we built And then what? We announced the trainee, um, on the machine learning training ship. People are very excited about the chip announcements. I think also, people on the container side is people are moving to smaller and smaller units of compute. I think people were very taken with the notion of E. K s and D. C s anywhere so they can run whatever container orchestration framework they're running in A. W s also on premises. To make it easier, Thio manage their deployments and containers. I think data stores was another space where I think people realize how much more data they're dealing with today. And we gave a couple statistics and the keynote that I think are kind of astonishing that, you know, every every hour today, people are creating mawr content that there was in an entire year, 20 years ago or the people expect more data to be created. The next three years in the prior 30 years combined these air astonishing numbers and it requires a brand new reinvention of data stores. And so I think people are very excited about Block Express, which is the first sand in the cloud and there really excited about Aurora in general, but then Aurora surveillance V two that allow you to scale up to hundreds of thousands of transactions per second and saved about 90% of supervision or people very excited about that. I think machine learning. You know, uh, Sage Maker has just been a game changer and the ease with which everyday developers and data scientists can build, train, tune into play machine learning models. And so we just keep knocking out things that are hard for people. Last year we launched the first i D for Machine Learning, the stage maker studio. This year, if you look at things that we announced, like Data Wrangler, which changes you know the process of Data Prep, which is one of the most time consuming pieces in machine learning or our feature store or the first see, I see deeper machine learning with pipelines or clarify, which allow you to have explain ability in your models. Those are big deals to people who are trying to build machine learning models, and you know that I'd say probably the last thing that we hear over and over again is really just the excitement around Connect, which is our call center service, which is just growing unbelievably fast and just, you know, the the fact that it's so easy to get started and so easy to scale so much more cost effective with, you know, built from the ground up on the cloud and with machine learning and ai embedded. And then adding some of the capabilities to give agents the right information, the right time about customers and products and real time capabilities for supervisors. Throw when calls were kind of going off the rails and to be ableto thio, stop the the contact before it becomes something, it hurts. The brand is there. Those are all big deals that people have been excited about. >>I think the connecting as I want to just jump on that for a second because I think when we first met many, many years ago, star eighth reinvent. You know the trends are always the same. You guys do a great job. Slew of announcements. You keep raising the bar. But one of the things that you mentioned to me when we talked about the origination of a W S was you were doing some stuff for Amazon proper, and you had a, you know, bootstrap team and you're solving your own problems, getting some scar tissue, the affiliate thing, all these examples. The trend is you guys tend to do stuff for yourself and then re factor it into potentially opportunities for your customers. And you're working backwards. All that good stuff. We'll get into that next section. But this year, more than ever, I think with the pandemic connect, you got chime, you got workspaces. This acceleration of you guys being pretty nimble on exposing these services. I mean, connect was a call center. It's an internal thing that you guys had been using. You re factored that for customer consumption. You see that kind of china? But you're not competing with Zoom. You're offering a service toe bundle in. Is this mawr relevant? Now, as you guys get bigger with more of these services because you're still big now you're still serving yourself. What? That seems to be a big trend now, coming out of the pandemic. Can you comment on um, >>yeah, It's a good question, John. And you know we do. We do a bunch of both. Frankly, you know, there there's some services where our customers. We're trying to solve certain problems and they tell us about those problems and then we build new services for him. So you know a good example that was red shift, which is our data warehouse and service, you know, two or three very large customers of ours. When we went to spend time with them and asked them what we could do to help them further, they just said, I wish I had a data warehousing service for the cloud that was built in the AWS style way. Um and they were really fed up with what they were using. Same thing was true with relation databases where people were just fed up with the old guard commercial, great commercial, great databases of Oracle and Sequel Server. And they hated the pricing and the proprietary nature of them and the punitive licensing. And they they wanted to move to these open engines like my sequel and post dress. But to get the same performance is the commercial great databases hard? So we solve that problem with them. With Aurora, which is our fastest growing service in our history, continues to be so there's sometimes when customers articulate a need, and we don't have a service that we've been running internally. But we way listen, and we have a very strong and innovative group of builders here where we build it for customers. And then there are other cases where customers say and connect with a great example of this. Connect with an example where some of our customers like into it. And Capital One said, You know, we need something for our contact center and customer service, and people weren't very happy with what they were using in that space. And they said, You, you've had to build something just to manage your retail business last 15, 20 years Can't you find a way to generalize that expose it? And when you have enough customers tell you that there's something that they want to use that you have experienced building. You start to think about it, and it's never a simple. It's just taking that technology and exposing it because it's often built, um, internally and you do a number of things to optimize it internally. But we have a way of building services and Amazon, where we do this working backwards process that you're referring to, where We build everything with the press release and frequently asked questions document, and we imagine that we're building it to be externalized even if it's an internal feature. But our feature for our retail business, it's only gonna be used as part of some other service that you never imagine Externalizing to third party developers. We always try and build it that way, and we always try to have well documented, hardened AP eyes so that other teams can use it without having to coordinate with those teams. And so it makes it easier for us to think about Externalizing it because we're a good part of the way there and we connect we. That's what we did way generalized it way built it from the ground up on top of the cloud. And then we embedded a bunch of AI and it so that people could do a number of things that would have taken him, you know, months to do with big development teams that they could really point, click and do so. We really try to do both. >>I think that's a great example of some of the scale benefits is worth calling out because that was a consistent theme this past year, The people we've reported on interviewed that Connect really was a lifeline for many during the pandemic and way >>have 5000 different customers who started using connect during the pandemic alone. Where they, you know, overnight they had to basically deal with having a a call center remotely. And so they picked up connect and they spun up call center remotely, and they didn't really quickly. And you know, it's that along with workspaces, which are virtual desktops in the cloud and things like Chime and some of our partners, Exume have really been lifelines for people. Thio have business continuity during a tandem. >>I think there's gonna be a whole set of new services that are gonna emerge You talked about in your keynote. We talked about it prior to the event where you know, if this pandemic hit with that five years ago, when there wasn't the advancements in, say, videoconferencing, it'd be a whole different world. And I think the whole world can see on full display that having integrated video communications and other cool things is gonna have a productivity benefit. And that's kind >>of could you imagine what the world would have been like the last nine months and we didn't have competent videoconferencing. I mean, just think about how different it would have been. And I think that all of these all of these capabilities today are kind of the occult 1.5 capabilities where, by the way, thank God for them. We've we've all been able to be productive because of them. But there's so early stage, they're all going to get evolved. I'm so significantly, I mean, even just today, you know, I was spending some time with with our team thinking about when we start to come back to the office and bigger numbers. And we do meetings with our remote partners, how we think about where the center of gravity should be and who should be on video conferencing and whether they should be allowed to kind of video conference in conference rooms, which are really hard to see them. We're only on their laptops, which are easier and what technology doesn't mean that you want in the conference rooms on both sides of the table, and how do you actually have it so that people who are remote could see which side of the table. I mean, all this stuff is yet to be invented. It will be very primitive for the next couple few years, even just interrupting one another in video conferencing people. When you do it, the sound counsel cancels each other out. So people don't really cut each other off and rip on one another. Same way, like all that, all that technology is going to get involved over time. It's a tremendous >>I could just see people fighting for the mute button. You know, that's power on these meetings. You know, Chuck on our team. All kidding aside, he was excited. We talked about Enron Kelly on your team, who runs product marketing on for your app side as well as computer networking storage. We're gonna do a green room app for the Q because you know, we're doing so many remote videos. We just did 112 here for reinvent one of things that people like is this idea of kind of being ready and kind of prepped. So again, this is a use case. We never would have thought off if there wasn't a pandemic. So and I think these are the kinds of innovation, thinking that seems small but works well when you start thinking about how easy it could be to say to integrate a chime through this sdk So this is the kind of things, that kind thing. So so with that, I want to get into your leadership principles because, you know, if you're a startup or a big company trying to reinvent, you're looking at the eight leadership principles you laid out, which were, um don't be afraid to reinvent. Acknowledge you can't fight gravity. Talent is hungry to reinvent solving real customer problems. Speed don't complex. If I use the platform with the broader set of tools, which is more a plug for you guys on cloud pull everything together with top down goals. Okay, great. How >>do you >>take those leadership principles and apply them broadly to companies and start ups? Because I think start ups in the garage are also gonna be there going. I'm going to jump on this wave. I'm inspired by the sea change. I'm gonna build something new or an enterprise. I'm gonna I'm gonna innovate. How do you How do you see these eight principles translating? >>Well, I think they're applicable to every company of every size and every industry and organization. Frankly, also, public sector organizations. I think in many ways startups have an advantage. And, you know, these were really keys to how to build a reinvention culture. And startups have an advantage because just by their very nature, they are inventive. You know, you can't you can't start a company that's a direct copy of somebody else that is an inventive where you have no chance. So startups already have, you know, a group of people that feel insurgent, and they wanted their passionate about certain customer experience. They want to invent it, and they know that they they only have so much time. Thio build something before money runs out and you know they have a number of those built in advantages. But I think larger companies are often where you see struggles and building a reinvention and invention culture and I've probably had in the last three weeks is part of reinvent probably about 40 different customer meetings with, you know, probably 75 different companies were accomplished in those or so and and I think that I met with a lot of leaders of companies where I think these reinvention principles really resonated, and I think they're they're battling with them and, you know, I think that it starts with the leaders if you, you know, when you have big companies that have been doing things a certain way for a long period of time, there's a fair bit of inertia that sets in and a lot of times not ill intended. It's just a big group of people in the middle who've been doing things a certain way for a long time and aren't that keen to change sometimes because it means ripping up something that they that they built and they remember how hard they worked on it. And sometimes it's because they don't know what it means for themselves. And you know, it takes the leadership team deciding that we are going to change. And usually that means they have to be able to have access to what's really happening in their business, what's really happening in their products in the market. But what customers really think of it and what they need to change and then having the courage and the energy, frankly, to pick the company up and push him to change because you're gonna have to fight a lot of inertia. So it always starts with the leaders. And in addition to having access that truth and deciding to make the change, you've gotta also set aggressive top down goal. The force of the organization moved faster than otherwise would and that also, sometimes leaders decide they're gonna want to change and they say they're going to change and they don't really set the goal. And they were kind of lessons and kind of doesn't listen. You know, we have a term the principal we have inside Amazon when we talk about the difference between good intentions and mechanisms and good intentions is saying we need to change and we need to invent, reinvent who we are and everyone has the right intentions. But nothing happens. Ah, mechanism, as opposed to good intention, is saying like Capital One did. We're going to reinvent our consumer digital banking platform in the next 18 months, and we're gonna meet every couple of weeks to see where we are into problem solved, like that's a mechanism. It's much harder to escape getting that done. Then somebody just saying we're going to reinvent, not checking on it, you know? And so, you know, I think that starts with the leaders. And then I think that you gotta have the right talent. You gotta have people who are excited about inventing, as opposed to really, Justin, what they built over a number of years, and yet at the same time, you're gonna make sure you don't hire people who were just building things that they're interested in. They went where they think the tech is cool as opposed to what customers want. And then I think you've got to Really You gotta build speed into your culture. And I think in some ways this is the very biggest challenge for a lot of enterprises. And I just I speak to so many leaders who kind of resigned themselves to moving slowly because they say you don't understand my like, companies big and the culture just move slow with regulator. There are a lot of reasons people will give you on why they have to move slow. But, you know, moving with speed is a choice. It's not something that your preordained with or not it is absolutely a leadership choice. And it can't happen overnight. You can't flip a switch and make it happen, but you can build a bunch of things into your culture first, starting with people. Understand that you are gonna move fast and then building an opportunity for people. Experiment quickly and reward people who experiment and to figure out the difference between one way doors and two way doors and things that are too way doors, letting people move quick and try things. You have to build that muscle or when it really comes, time to reinvent you won't have. >>That's a great point in the muscle on that's that's critical. You know, one of things I want to bring up. You brought on your keynote and you talk to me privately about it is you gave attribute in a way to Clay Christensen, who you called out on your keynote. Who was a professor at Harvard. Um, and he was you impressed by him and and you quoted him and he was He was your professor there, Um, your competitive person and you know, companies have strategy departments, and competitive strategy is not necessarily departments of mindset, and you were kind of brought this out in a zone undertone in your talk, we're saying you've got to be competitive in the sense of you got to survive and you've got to thrive. And you're kind of talking about rebuilding and building and, you know, Clay Christians. Innovative dilemma. Famous book is a mother, mother teachings around metrics and strategy and prescriptions. If he were alive today and he was with us, what would he be talking about? Because, you know, you have kind of stuck in the middle. Strategy was not Clay Christensen thing, but, you know, companies have to decide who they are. Their first principles face the truth. Some of the things you mentioned, what would we be talking with him about if we were talking about the innovator's dilemma with respect to, say, cloud and and some of the key decisions that have to be made right now? >>Well, then, Clay Christensen on it. Sounds like you read some of these books on. Guy had the fortunate, um, you know, being able to sit in classes that he taught. And also I got a chance. Thio, meet with him a couple of times after I graduated. Um, school, you know, kind of as more of a professional sorts. You can call me that. And, uh, he he was so thoughtful. He wasn't just thoughtful about innovation. He was thoughtful about how to get product market fit. And he was thoughtful about what your priorities in life were and how to build families. And, I mean, he really was one of the most thoughtful, innovative, um, you know, forward thinking, uh, strategist, I had the opportunity Thio encounter and that I've read, and so I'm very appreciative of having the opportunity Thio learn from him. And a lot of I mean, I think that he would probably be continuing to talk about a lot of the principles which I happen to think are evergreen that he he taught and there's it relates to the cloud. I think that one of the things that quite talked all the time about in all kinds of industries is that disruption always happens at the low end. It always happens with products that seem like they're not sophisticated enough. Don't do enough. And people always pooh pooh them because they say they won't do these things. And we learned this. I mean, I watched in the beginning of it of us. When we lost just three, we had so many people try and compare it Thio things like e m. C. And of course, it was very different than EMC. Um, but it was much simpler, but And it and it did a certain set of activities incredibly well at 1 1/100 of the price that's disrupted, you know, like 1 1/100 of the price. You find that builders, um, find a lot of utility for products like that. And so, you know, I think that it always starts with simple needs and products that aren't fully developed. That overtime continue to move their way up. Thio addressing Maura, Maura the market. And that's what we did with is what we've done with all our services. That's three and easy to and party ass and roar and things like that. And I think that there are lots of lessons is still apply. I think if you look at, um, containers and how that's changing what compute looks like, I think if you look at event driven, serverless compute in Lambda. Lambda is a great example of of really ah, derivative plays teaching, which is we knew when we were building Lambda that as people became excited about that programming model it would cannibalize easy to in our core compute service. And there are a lot of companies that won't do that. And for us we were trying to build a business that outlasts all of us. And that's you know, it's successful over a long period of time, and the the best way I know to do that is to listen to what customers We're trying to solve an event on their behalf, even if it means in the short term you may cannibalize yourself. And so that's what we always think about is, you know, wherever we see an opportunity to provide a better customer experience, even if it means in the short term, make cannibalism revenue leg lambda with complete with easy to our over our surveillance with provisions or are we're going to do it because we're gonna take the long view, and we believe that we serve customers well over a long period of time. We have a chance to do >>that. It's a cannibalize yourself and have someone else do it to you, right? That's that's the philosophy. Alright, fine. I know you've got tight for time. We got a you got a hard stop, But let's talk about the vaccine because you know, you brought up in the keynote carrier was a featured thing. And look at the news headlines. Now you got the shots being administered. You're starting to see, um, hashtag going around. I got my shot. So, you know, there's a There's a really Momenta. Mit's an uplifting vibe here. Amazon's involved in this and you talked about it. Can you share the innovation? There can just give us an update and what's come out of that and this supply chain factor. The cold chain. You guys were pretty instrumental in that share your your thoughts. >>We've been really excited and privileged partner with companies who are really trying to change what's possible for all of us. And I think you know it started with some of the companies producing vaccines. If you look at what we do with Moderna, where they built their digital manufacturing sweet on top of us in supply chain, where they used us for computing, storage and data warehousing and machine learning, and and on top of AWS they built, they're Cove in 19 vaccine candidate in 42 days when it normally takes 20 months. I mean, that is a total game changer. It's a game changer for all of us and getting the vaccine faster. But also, you just think about what that means for healthcare moving forward, it zits very exciting. And, yeah, I love what carriers doing. Kariya is building this product on top of AWS called links, which is giving them end and visibility over the transportation and in temperature of of the culture and everything they're delivering. And so it, uh, it changes what happens not only for food, ways and spoilage, but if you think about how much of the vaccine they're gonna actually transport to people and where several these vaccines need the right temperature control, it's it's a big deal. And what you know, I think there are a great example to what carrier is where. You know, if you think about the theme of this ring and then I talked about in my keynote, if you want to survive as an organization over a long period of time, you're gonna have to reinvent yourself. You're gonna have to probably do it. Multiple times over and the key to reinventing his first building, the right reinvention culture. And we talk about some of those principles earlier, but you also have to be aware of the technology that's available that allows you to do that. If you look at Carrier, they have built a very, very strong reinvention culture. And then, if you look at how they're leveraging, compute and storage and I o. T at the edge and machine learning, they know what's available, and they're using that technology to reinvent what's what's possible, and we're gonna all benefit because of >>it. All right. Well, Andy, you guys were reinventing the virtual space. Three weeks, it went off. Well, congratulations. Great to go along for the ride with the cube virtual. And again. Thank you for, um, keeping the show alive over there. Reinvent. Um, thanks for your team to for including the Cube. We really appreciate the Cube virtual being involved. Thank you. >>It's my pleasure. And thanks for having me, John and, uh, look forward to seeing you soon. >>All right? Take care. Have a hockey game in real life. When? When we get back, Andy Jesse, the CEO of a W s here to really wrap up. Reinvent here for Cuba, Virtual as well as the show. Today is the last day of the program. It will be online for the rest of the year and then into next month there's another wave coming, of course. Check out all the coverage. Come, come back, It's It's It's online. It's all free Cube Cube stuff is there on the Cube Channel. Silicon angle dot com For all the top stories, cube dot net tons of content on Twitter. Hashtag reinvent. You'll see all the commentary. Thanks for watching the Cube Virtual. I'm John Feehery.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, to theCUBE coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host is Corey Quinn. And happy to welcome back to the program Mark Shuttleworth who os the CEO of Canonical. Of course, the orange shirts of Ubuntu, are seen all throughout the show. Mark, thank you so much for joining us, great so see you. >> Great to see you. >> All right, so for years, actually, we've had these conversations at the OpenStack Summit. It's interesting that, every time you mention it around this show you get snark online, as like, it is dead, Kubernetes killed it and it's like wait, no, no, you know we're talking about, a couple of open-source projects. I've been talking to people, especially in the telco space, that's like, oh yeah, well no, we just run OpenStack underneath and Kubernetes on top and put all things together. Give us a little bit of your broad view of some of these big trends, and open-source monoliths and microservices and all these pieces, all kind of fly together. >> Yeah, I think if your in the Reddit SubChannels, then you know it can feel a bit like turf war, and gangster-type, free software riffing, right. But the reality is, OpenStack solves business problems for people. They want large scale, virtualized infrastructure, that's cheaper than VMware. We are deploying OpenStacks in enterprise environments at double the scale and double the speed, in other words, like twice as many every month, as we were a year ago. I think people have gotten comfortable with the idea that Kubernetes is an application operations construct. I think we will see virtualization blur into the Kubernetes lives, but mainly for security reasons. So I want deeper isolation of applications that come from third-party vendors, for example. And I'm willing to trade performance for isolation, in circumstances where I am bringing in third-party code into my private infrastructure. After we see a couple of significant security compromises, I mean, we saw the GitHub compromise. If you shave that Yak, it gets to a very uncomfortable place of, what are we actually running as root all over our data centers with Docker and Docker Hub. So, people are going to want that kind of isolation of containers, the Kata Containers work is going to bring that. But that's very different to the proposition of, essentially, give me large scale, machine virtualization which OpenStack addresses. OpenStack hasn't done itself any favors, don't need to go into that here. But nonetheless, as far as we're concerned, it's straight forward to deliver large scale, low cost, enterprise virtualization infrastructure for telco's or IT use cases. >> Let's get into this ecosystem here. I want to say the Cloud Native ecosystem, and I say that specifically because there are some that look at this and they say, oh, there's dozens of projects now, Kubernetes is a platform against platform. Somebody even mentioned the word big tent once. We've seen some projects merging, we've seen some various pieces. >> I saw making a bigger tent on the keynote and I was like, not my favorite choice of words. >> I seem to remember a certain article that you wrote poking a whole in the big tent thing. What's the same, what's different? What's your take on this? Is it an ecosystem? Is it Kubernetes and friends, as Corey has liked to say here? What's your take? >> Look, I think we're still trying to figure out what are the appropriate labels to attach to this kind of forum, it is a forum, right. There is a tremendous amount of value attached to being here, to the ideas that are getting bounced about. But I wouldn't call it a simple community in the sort of, traditional open-source sense. The reality is there's very serious money behind every, sort of project that's been framed as a community project. This is a new kind of consortium. And that brings with it certain, delicate, political posturing and so on. But, nonetheless, it's a valuable place to be. It's definitely staking out important concepts and operational platforms, ideas, regimes, whatever you want to call it. This is going to be a fun week. >> I started off my career in the Linux world as a grumpy Unix administrator because there really wasn't any other kind. Then I started dipping my toes into the Linux world and something struck me, almost immediately, about Ubuntu. Was how welcoming everyone was in the community. There was no such thing as a stupid question. I asked the kind of questions you would expect from someone working on a computer, wearing a suit. People were very eager to embrace newcomers into that. It was one of the absolute best things that I saw coming out of Canonical, in addition to the software itself. I love that you're here as a part of this. What is the larger picture? What do you see in the Cloud Native ecosystem that's resonating with what Canonical's doing? >> So, the big thing that we do is, essentially, try to figure out where, what's possible with open-source that's hard to do. And then make it really straight forward so that more people can do the important stuff easily. That doesn't stop people from doing all the crazy stuff at the periphery that you can do with Ubuntu. It's generally easier with Ubuntu than any other platform. But we try to make the really most important things really easy for everybody. That's the first thing. The second thing is, we're a little non-judgemental about the fact that there are different perspectives on the same stuff. In the Ubuntu ecosystem, we make a point of saying that GNOME guys, and the KDE guys, and the LXQt, and the MATE guys. The Ubuntu ecosystem is where they actually meet to hash out how they can do stuff in a way that means users get a real choice between those. There's a very similar role for us to play in an environment like this. It's kind of acronym soup out there. Like 50 new projects every KubeCon. They're all interesting, they're all important, there's a lot of overlap between them. There's work for us to do in figuring out which ones are going to be really more important in the tent. We did that very effectively with OpenStack. The people who rode the OpenStack wave with us haven't had to abandon their OpenStacks. Because the stuff that we really chose to make central and easy, turned out to be the stuff that was the important poles in the tent. And we'll do exactly the same stuff here with Kubernetes. So, to put that into context, it's been real fun to be on the booth. We had, just tons, of people coming up and saying thank you for Microk8s. Microk8s is a single package of Kubernetes, that works in lots Linux distributions. It gives you, in about a minute, it gives you a standard Kubernetes environment, that's pure upstream. That, for a developer, just let's you get productive immediately. Figure out these new development application operations, constructs. You can use it on an airplane, you can use it on a train. Of course, it's compatible with all of the public clouds so that's the second thing that we're doing. We work with Amazon, with the EKS team, I spoke at their event on Monday. We work with Azure, the AKS team, we work with Google, we work with Oracle, we work with IBM. Essentially making sure that all of them offer Ubuntu worker nodes for their Kubernetes, SaaS offerings. That means that the developer who's doing stuff on their workstation with Microk8s can take those containers straight to any other public clouds. So, we're not trying to force people to use a particular solution, we're saying, in all of those environments, there are going to be choices people have. We want to make that as easy as possible for them. We want to avoid unnecessary friction in that process. That kind of underlining culture is coming through in this forum, as well. >> We've had many conversations about how you've always tried to make the job of that developer really easy. One of the things we always look at on this show is how much of it is the infrastructure people, or the platform underneath and the developer, and how much are they coming together. Anything different about this ecosystem? >> Very much so, yeah. >> Or your customers here that you can share? >> Kubernetes is an application construct. You can think of it as a next generation message bus. It's how components of an application find each other, communicate with each other, essentially, coordinate with each other. That makes it very tightly woven in to the developer experience. By contrast, you can be sitting writing a Java application inside a bank and not know or care whether it's going to be running on a physical machine, a virtual machine or an OpenStack cloud. You just don't know, you don't care. It's too far away from the application. Kubernetes is right there. I think that's one of the really interesting things is that it's bringing those infrastructure brains together with the application, app dev brains, in a very interesting way. It's going to be challenging. I wouldn't underestimate it, there are a lot of people, sort of, wondering around here, feeling a little confused, but that's okay. Do you know what I mean, the stuff shakes out. >> So, something that's been a recurring theme here has been the idea of going in a multi-cloud direction. Where people are talking about wanting to build workloads that they can seamlessly deploy across different providers. People talk about that, periodically, as a strategic goal but I'm not seeing people do it very often in the real world. You're in a much better position than a lot of us, to see that. Is that something you're seeing people moving towards as an adoption? >> Well, yes. Because we work with all of the major public clouds to optimize Ubuntu there, in a way that I don't think any other Linux does. You get an optimized Amazon Ubuntu on Amazon. You get an optimized Azure Ubuntu on Azure, and so on. >> Going very deep in the Amazon ecosystem. Most of my customers are using Ubuntu far ahead of anything else out there. >> That's right. >> And it's the right answer for what they're doing. >> That's right. It gives them, essentially, the best of what Amazon's offering, it still gives them the ability to feel like if they want to go somewhere else, they can. And that actually works well for Amazon. In the early days, I think there was a little tension between us and the cloud guys, because they were saying, look, if people use Ubuntu then they can go somewhere else. Yes, but in a sense, that makes them more likely to be more relaxed about starting wherever they choose to start. We don't advise enterprises as to which cloud to use. We advise them to engage with those clouds and figure out their differences, they are different. Amazon's really good at some things that are different, to what Microsoft is good at. Oracle is really good at some things which are different too. And what we're starting to see is the level of maturity in the enterprise governance process. They know they want to work with multiple clouds. They initially thought that was a straight kind of commodity exchange, competition thing. They now realize that it's a bit richer than that. That there are actually business reasons to have deeper relationships with particular clouds, based on what those clouds are prioritizing, and what they are prioritizing. So, we're not going to say you should use this cloud, you should use that cloud. Obviously, we can draw a distinction between the clouds where we're deeply engaged and the clouds where, you know, where you just don't have the benefit of that. But, more importantly we can say, you know, here are the set of practices that you can adopt internally that will give you comfort that your getting the best out of those clouds, the ones that you've chosen. And you have the portability that you really need. The key turns out be, enabling your developers, to use multiple clouds and challenging the developers to do different phases of the development life cycle on different clouds. Develop on your private cloud or your work station, use Microk8s, for example. Do tests on one cloud. Do staging and production on a different cloud. Now you already know that that whole, seamless ecosystem works. If you want to go use a high value, proprietary function, effectively on a cloud, that's a business decision and it's not a bad business decision. There's some spectacular capabilities from Amazon that are unique to Amazon. Or from Microsoft that are unique, or from Oracle that are unique to Oracle. They're spectacular. Those are business decisions to use them. There's other stuff that effectively you can give yourself optionality on. I wouldn't be black and white about that, put yourself in a position to make smart choices. And our best customers are getting are getting there. PayPal, they're operating on Ubuntu in a very sophisticated way, across multiple public clouds and private infrastructure. >> All right, so Mark we're five years into Kubernetes now. We've seen adoption grow, people feel there's a certain level of maturity here. There's always that concern that we've reached that peak and we're about to fall off the cliff. What do we need to worry about? What does the ecosystem need to do to make sure we continue along the stability and security that customers are looking for. >> There will be an over shoot regardless. I don't think there's any sort of leadership or governance approach that could avoid that. It's a little bit like, if your stock is going crazy. On the one hand, you're kind of happy. On the other hand, if you feel it's over valued it's a difficult sort of thing to say. You need to say, guys, you know what I mean, we're humans too. We've got our challenges to work through. And no one likes volatility, but too a certain extent, there's always speculation and over shoot, and over-enthusiasm, and hype. Kubernetes will over shoot. There's a bunch of emperors walking around here that, frankly, have no clothes. My job, our job, is very calmly, to sort through the wheat from the chaff. Make sure that it's possible for people to experiment with everything. But, that the stuff that we think has legs, effectively, is nicely integrated for people, that they have that for the long term, they won't regret things. We have a good track record of doing that. We've done it in the Linux desktop. We did it in OpenStack, we're doing it in public cloud. We've done it here in the Cloud Native world. I'd say things like AI are going in the same direction. Again, tons of complexity, tons of new options. Helping people effectively navigate through that is what we do very well. >> Yeah, one of the questions that I started to see as well, as we look at the way that these technologies continue to evolve, has been that, for better or worse, when developers are writing applications now and even infrastructure people are working with a lot of the things they care about. What operating system, let alone what distribution they're using, is increasingly slipping beneath the waves. People don't think about that as a primary area of focus anymore. And as, I guess, of the foundational Linux vendors in this space, how are you seeing that evolving? And how does Canonical remain relevant in a world where suddenly, people in a serverless future, I just throw some code over somewhere else and it runs is the limit of where most companies get involved. >> Yes, of course, we can point to the servers. And on the servers, we can point to the operating systems and inside the containers, we can point to the operating systems and underneath the serverless code, we can point to the language runtimes. So, the reality is that those things matter less and less to the developer. >> Yes. >> They still matter to the institution. So, I'm super comfortable with the language that says, the OS doesn't matter. What it means is that that whole tangle is getting professionalized and abstracted. But to be confident in the abstractions, someone needs to do a lot of work. I know how much work we do with Google, with Amazon, with Microsoft, with Oracle, with IBM, to make sure that nobody else has to feel like the OS matters. That that stuff essentially just works. You can extend that out to what we do with VMware, what we do, essentially, on bare-metal, what we do on developer workstations, what we do with the Windows crowd, effectively, and Windows subsystem for Linux, so that developers really can just build on Windows subsystem for Linux, Ubuntu, effectively, and ship that container straight to Amazon EKS and have it just work. There are a ton of little lies that have to line up. Containers are all kind of a fiction. The fiction breaks if those pieces don't line up. So, being Ubuntu, effectively and being being able to be consistent in all of those places, is a ton of work to enable it not to matter for anybody upstairs. That's allowing developers to go faster. It's allowing them to be more productive. It's allowing them to be more heroic. And it's allowing the people who do worry about the middleware to have far fewer nights scratching their heads as to, why didn't this version of this library tie up to that driver with that kernel. All of those things are still there. When you drop that container onto Amazon, we've got to connect the GPGPU in the hardware, through the hypervisor, to the guest OS, up into the container. And there's code getting injected all the way up. It's only the fact that we can typically have Ubuntu everywhere there that, essentially, allows those pieces to line up without some spectacular fireworks. It satisfies me when people say they don't have to worry about that. >> It's a victory condition. >> Mark, I want to give you the final word. What should we be looking for, from Canonical, through the rest of the year? >> So, for us, this has been a big year in terms of visibility in the enterprise. In terms of penetration, Ubuntu's everywhere in the Fortune 500, everywhere in the Global 2000. What's changed this year, is the CIO suddenly is seeing Ubuntu on their desk. For two reasons, one is IBM Red Hat. The CIO suddenly wants to know, okay, what does this mean? What else are we running? Where else can we get 24/7 SLAs? Where else can we get long term commitments to Linux and so on? And the fact is Ubuntu's already in the building so that's one, sort of, easy connect. The other thing is, there's really interesting, new workloads that Ubuntu leads in the enterprise. Obviously the container story, the multi-cloud story, edge. It's not just telcos. Every retailer, every logistics company, anybody that has physical distribution is now trying to say, well how can I automate compute in my physical world, effectively. So, edge is super interesting and IoT beyond that. People transforming businesses through taking a Raspberry Pi with Ubuntu and putting a snap on it is really, really cool. Which of those is going to drive the biggest headlines or the scariest headlines, I can't tell you. We're just trying to take care of security, performance and operations across all of them. >> All right, well, Mark Shuttleworth, always a pleasure to catch up, thank you so much for the updates. >> Great to see you. >> All right, for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco's new inaugural event called DevNet Create, an extension, an augmentation, a community-focused event of their DevNet community, which is a Cisco developer community, now out in the wild. Our next guest is Steven Pousty, lead developer and evangelist at Red Hat, I'm John Furrier, and my co-host Peter Burris. Steven, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you very much. It's exciting to be here. >> Great to have you on. We were just talking before on camera, getting all animated like, "Hey, turn the cameras on. "We got to get this conversation." We're talking about open source and really looking at some of the trends, but more importantly, the impact. >> Steven: Right. >> Also, we've had you guys on many times on theCUBE. We covered Red Hat Summit, Jim Whitehurst. So, abstractions layers in software, open source ecosystems, you have a background in nature. >> Steven: Yeah. I- >> And ecosystems, literally. >> Steven: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, actually I have my PhD in ecology. I'm actually a conservation biologist by training, but IT and computer programming pays the bills a lot better than-- >> Hey, anthropologists and ecologists do very well in the tech world, believe it or not. >> Steven: Yeah, I love big data. >> Peter: And philosophers. >> Yeah, and philosophers. Yeah, with all that logic and the ontologies and all that. >> Ontologies and symbiotics. >> Steven: Yep, yep. >> John: Okay, so I got to ask you, obviously Red Hat has been really the poster child for open source companies going public. We've heard since over the past generation, "The Red Hat of blank, The Red Hat of," and that got played. Certainly we downplayed that. People were trying to call Cloudera the Red Hat of Hadoop (mumbles) realizing that that's never going to happen. You were a once in a generational company, but Red Hat was a tier two company back in those days. Now, open source is certainly tier one software across the board, and I think this event at Cisco kind of amplifies that. Look at it, open source has gone a whole nother generation. A lot of young kids coming in. It's tier one software. The business model is open source. Four new companies just went public recently. So, done deal. >> Right, I mean, I think if you look in the technology ecosystem as a whole, if you don't start with open source you either have some incredibly magic sauce that no one else has or you're done. You couldn't even look at the movies... The arch enemy when I was growing up in software was Microsoft of open source, right? If you look at them now with Satya, they've made great strides to be part of the open source ecosystem at a real level, not like just lip service like they used to do sometimes. Like when I interact with some of our Microsoft partners, you can tell that there's a different change and they really believe in that open source-- >> Microsoft used to be known as lip service and vaporware and they used to kind of freeze the market with their monopoly power as some would say, but more recently they've... Back in the old days, Linux was a cancer. Steve Ballmer said, "Linux is the cancer to the industry." >> Steven: And so-- >> John: Now they're doing Linux with .NET. >> And so at the Red Hat Summit just recently I did the Microsoft keynote, I was the Red Hat person on the Microsoft keynote, and we demonstrated .NET Core running in OpenShift on Linux machines, we demonstrated SQL Server running in containers on OpenShift, and then for the end we showed some of the community work, because both of us are involved in Kubernetes. We actually showed a Windows container spinning up IIS being orchestrated from a Linux OpenShift. So, it was actually the Linux server, the Linux OpenShift server, was talking to Windows containers and spinning up Windows containers on the fly. So, I never thought that would've happened. So, it's definitely a sea change. >> And boy was that partly the sea change, we can encapsulate it, is that we used to think in terms of winners and losers in the tech industry, and now it's big winners and less big winners, but the question is how is, I think the realization Microsoft had, is that open source does not demarcate winners from losers. It demarcates, or rather suggests, a new way of thinking about how software gets developed, how software gets integrated and packaged, and ultimately how software gets diffused. So, talk a little bit about this notion of the new world of winners and winners and how this thing moves together, almost in an ecosystem type of way, so that the capabilities overall improve over time, because that's really where we're going is digital business being able to do more for customers. >> Right, and I think that's one of the things that you're seeing coming out from the open source world now is it's becoming less and less about I have this technology versus this is the technology, this open source technology, that we use to help solve your business problems. I gave a talk about this a couple times. There's a concept in ecology called, now I'm blocking on the word, but you probably came across it in school, probably even elementary school. It's the idea that you have bare earth, and then a few plants show up and they start breaking it up, and those plants create a condition where new trees come in, and then it just keeps going and going and going, and then you finally have a rainforest at the end, right? >> Peter: Diversity? >> No, it's-- >> Anyway, we don't want to put you out. >> Yeah, I'm stuck on the word and I can't remember-- >> Here's an ecology question. I saw a Facebook thing where in Yellowstone National Park they introduced four wolves to the ecosystem, and all of a sudden the rivers are no longer wide, they're tighter, there's pools. So four wolves create dynamics. So there's a coexistence, but there's still wolves. >> Right, and so the-- >> John: Who's the wolves in the industry? >> See, that's the thing, it's not that. Just because there are wolves in the industry doesn't mean that they control the entire ecosystem. So I think what I say at the end of this talk is there is no right or wrong about where you are in the ecosystem or in your evolution as an ecosystem, right? There is what is right for your business problem. So, we have this in our, especially in the United States, we have this idea of you're either the winner in this space, you're the cloud solution and you're the winner, or you're not, you're nothing. It's like the Talladega Nights, "If you're not first, you're last!" >> He runs around in his underwear. That's your outcome if you have that strategy. >> Great strategy. >> It was such a good movie. But so the point that I was trying to make in this talk is there's lots of different... So like with bird species, when they need to share a tree, there can be six different species all in the same tree, and what they do is what's called niche differentiation. That means, "Oh, I'm going to specialize "in the tops of the trees "and I'm going to only eat this type of caterpillar." And the one on the bottom says, "I specialize on beetles and I do this." And I think what you're seeing with the open source stuff is all these things can coexist. Like GNOME versus KDE. Everybody was claiming GNOME or KDE was the winner for forever. They're still around for forever. So, what I think with this cloud software as well where everybody is like, "Oh, this is the one winning," or this is the, there's a whole host of places for them all to live, and with open source I think things just live forever. >> John: What's your ecosystem analogy that coexistence is actually a better philosophy looking at the big picture than some dominant wolf or whatever. >> That's right, it's the diversity, it's the mutualism, it's the coevolution, it's the right diversity. Like a desert is actually a beautiful place if you go to it. Like we like to pick on the desert, but if you actually spend time in the desert it's gorgeous. There's nothing wrong with the desert. So, if you're some company who doesn't need Kubernetes and all the other pieces in this huge cloud environment, don't feel like that's something you have to take on. >> Peter: But they are the desert. >> That's right, but they are the desert. But, all my PhD research was in the desert, and I used to hate it, because I started this little rolly polly in the desert, and by the time I left I was like, "Oh, I miss the desert when I don't have it." >> John: The sunrises are beautiful. >> Sunrises are beautiful. You can see forever. If you actually pay attention to the small things... All I'm trying to point out is people live in Kansas, people live in New York, people live all over, and they usually find where they live, unless it's some disgusting dump, they say this is a beautiful-- >> Peter: They find beauty in it. >> Yeah, and I think it shouldn't necessarily be everybody has to get to the same place and use all the same technology. There's technology reasons for everything. >> So, I want to pick up on that concept. So the industry used to be pretty much structured around asset specificity. This asset does this for you. As we move more to a software orientation that notion of asset specificity starts to blend away. I think that's one of the seminal features of digital business and digital business transformation is the reduction of asset specificity, but it does mean that increasingly we need to focus on what I'll call value specificity, that we're moving away from the asset being the dominant determinant of structure and how you do things to the value that's being generated and the value that's being presented in any number of different fashions, and that becomes what dictates or describes who you are, what you do, both as an individual, also as a company, as well as a piece of software data. So talk a bit about kind of this notion of niche specialization being more tied to the value that you create as opposed to the asset that you bring. >> That's right, and we're seeing this a lot with our customers, who... You know, OpenShift is based off of Kubernetes and Docker and all that stuff, and containers, and so what we're seeing is a lot of companies come to us and say, "Well, I want to use OpenShift for this. "I want to use OpenShift for that." It's no more that we go to customers and say, "Here's OpenShift and you will use it "for purposes X, Y, and Z." What it is is well, that IT group might say well I've got three different business groups that I have to produce stuff for them that they can use. And they'll say, "Can I use Kubernetes for this? "Can I use, oh, I can't? "Well, then I'll get something else for this, or can we adapt-- >> Or complement it. >> Yeah, it's about creating value for the business unit, and it's becoming more and more that now. I think it's an evolution that we've seen, again, this evolution of stuff with the shadow IT and all that stuff. It became less about you're some sort of specialized high priest with this special asset that only you know how to control, I know how to do GIS software, I know how to do big data, no, what value do you produce for me? I don't care that you can buy these kinds of servers and provision them. If I can't use them, what does that do for me, right? So I think we see that at Red Hat a lot where we were the enterprise Linux company, and I think our leaders have done a really good job of saying, "Yeah, that's a good place "where the puck is right now, "but that's not where the puck is staying. "It's moving towards value, "it's moving towards integrated solutions." Go ahead. >> Let me extend this a little bit. So one of the things that we've observed within (mumbles) SiliconAngle, and we've talked to some other people today specifically about this, was the idea that open source has done a really good job of looking at a thing, a convention, that's well defined and well established and then building an open source variant of it. Open source has not been as successful, for example, in the big data world, where the use case or the definition of where we're going is amorphous. Instead, a lot of open source development ends up looking at each other saying, "Well, I'll fix your problem and you'll fix my problem, kind of. Nothing wrong with that, but the vision of where the industry is going to go. How are different companies, what will be open source leadership at redefining where this industry goes so that the open source developers can both be free to do what they need to do, create value as they need to, but at the same time, share a common understanding of where this ends up? >> So I think this goes back to what you were talking about with value, right? So I think what ends up... I'll use the example of big data. So I did a lot of statistical analysis for my PhD, and back then you used SAS or S-PLUS, both proprietary solutions. I think what has caused some of the explosion in big data is that you had these data scientists, the statisticians, intermingling, fertilizing with the computer science people who were handling these other really big problems. So what comes out of that, this is that margin thing again, right? You have statistics and-- >> Peter: Diversity and interesting things happen in the margin. >> At the margin. So what you have is these two groups come together, and suddenly you have the computer science people saying, "Oh, well I know a lot about algorithms "and I'm going to help you figure out "how to get value of what... "You're trying to solve this statistical algorithm, "I'm going to help you build distributed software that does that and that's where we get that happening. >> So the collaboration at the edge, the fringe, the lunatic fringe, or whatever you want to call it, the margin, is where the innovation is. >> I think that's where the innovation is because that helps avoid the navel gazing, right? Like, "Oh, I'm looking at what you exactly built, "and I'm going to build a slight variation on it." Well no, I actually need some, when you bring other disciplines in they say, "Well, this is the problem I'm going to solve," and the computer science person or the other side will say, "Well, that sounds "kind of like this thing, but let's try," and then suddenly new ideas come up and new ways to handle things. So I think, again, switching to value rather than what technology am I going to build is what's going to actually drive like, we need something to handle our big data. That's what's going to drive the vision. So you see in the big data world you see Spark, you see Zeppelin, you see all these different things competing, but what they're all doing is trying to drive how do I analyze big data efficiently? So you get some competing solutions. Then over time I think that's the vision that they're driving. >> I got to ask you, so like naval gazers is one dimension, but also there's the rearranging the deck chairs, like someone says, "Let's move things around "and magic will happen." Well you're pushing a whole nother concept, which I think is legit, which is as you put people together it might be uncomfortable, but then innovation can come out of it. Okay, so here's the ways. Computer and science and cloud computing, all that great stuff is happening, compute, storage, algorithm, etc., data, now society. So now society has issues, because what's the societal impact? These are first generation problems that we're facing, which side of the street does the cards drive on? Who gets hit first? They have to make these decisions. You see all these new issues, from even younger kids, cyber bullying, online behavior, across the board, societal impact. We are those margins. >> So I think for me tools... I thought about this a lot, right, because in the college I was kind of a tools person, and I think tools are value neutral. Any tool can be used for good or for bad. So, what we're doing right now in the open source world is develop, and in IT in general, is developing new tools, and what usually ends up happening is society develops norms after the tools have been created. In some ways, I think... I some ways, I kind of... It's a hard one. This is a much longer discussion and probably would involve some sort of alcoholic liquid or something to draw it out. >> It's a double edged sword, or tool, depending on how you look at it. We got to see it first before you can problem solve it. >> But the problem is-- >> You can't problem solve vapor. >> That's right, but on the other hand, sometimes you can see if you stopped and aren't so enamored with the latest and greatest tool without thinking about like, "Oh, well what are actually the implications of it?" I was going to say, I think the Europeans do a little bit of a better job of putting a little bit of foresight into tools when they come out saying, "Hold on, let's take a look at this." >> John: At the impact? >> Yeah, at the impact. >> So let me add one more thing to the conversation, because I think you're spot on, that the tools may be value neutral, but the impact, the transaction cost, of doing certain types of work in a different ways, and some work, and work is not necessarily value neutral. We may look at some tools and say, "That work is not good. "This tool reduces the transaction cost "of performing that work faster "or more completely than that work, "so that tool is going to have a less positive impact--" >> Impact on society as a whole >> "Than some other tool." And I think we can start introducing that kind of an analysis into it. >> I think so. I think that was... I live in this area, like I'm in Santa Cruz, so when I want to I say I'm not in the Valley, but when I want to I say I am in the Valley, I think the Valley is particularly enamored with the toys, or the tools, that it produces, and how technology will solve all our problems, and technology is great, and it is inherently good, and I like to say, "No, it's a tool, "and so a tool could be used for good or for bad." Like one example is ride sharing. Everybody was like, "Oh, this is the best! "This is awesome!" One of the things I thought of, my father is an immigrant, so I'm first generation on my father's side, and he wasn't a taxi driver, but I know how hard it is for first generation immigrants if you don't speak the language really well. So what used to happen with those ride shares is you had to have the capital to acquire a car before you could actually do ride sharing. So what you were basically doing was disenfranchising people who didn't have the capital from actually having this as a source of income when they came to the country. So, I was very conflicted about it to start with. Now, I'm less conflicted. I actually don't think ride share, given the economics I've seen actually play out I actually think ride sharing is not as big of a market and as game changing as everybody was making it. It was just some funny economics. >> Well Steven, certainly the conversation is very awesome. We should have you at the studio in Palo Alto next time you're in the Valley. >> Sounds great. >> You have plenty of tools and shiny new toys. >> Go by the Baylands and then go birding together at the Baylands, or maybe some fishing. >> Let's bring theCube over to Santa Cruz for a couple days. >> We should go down. >> That's great. >> Chill in Santa Cruz. Surf those waves, cloud, data, society. >> There you go. >> theCube on the boardwalk. >> Final question for you. Cisco is trying to push the margin with this event. It's a new event. It's an extension. It's outside their comfort zone. They had some projects that were kind of dismissed, interclouding, other things, this is a statement. Your thoughts on this show, because they have DevNet, why DevNet Create? Your thoughts. >> I think DevNet Create is a great opportunity for Cisco. I've been to the Cisco, is it Cisco Live, the huge gazillion people event? And there's a lot of energy around that, but that's mostly like network engineers and people who were bread and butter Cisco people. I really like that Cisco, that blurring between software and hardware means that Cisco really should be pushing people more in the, "We're going to help you create really interesting solutions." The more they make that easy for the developers... I think some developers are hardware hackers and love it. I am not one of those, and there's a lot of us who are not, and the more you make it easy for me to use software to create really interesting hardware things, the better it is for us. >> It's a classic case, the data scientists meets the algorithm guy. >> Steven: Exactly. >> So they're trying to bring these margins together where it might be awkward at first, but magic can happen. >> If I got to sit with some hardware people and like, "You need to make it so that I can write in Python "and do a whole bunch of neat networking and stuff "so at my house I can keep track "of how many birds are coming to my bird feeder "because I want to do this really cool experiment, "make that easy for me." >> By the way, you got camera, so you got bird recognition software. >> Steven: Exactly, exactly. >> A new feature on AWS. >> Yeah, I've seen demos of that. It's incredible what they can actually pull out now. >> Steven Pousty, Lead Developer at Red Hat, thanks for coming on theCube. Great conversation. >> Thank you very much. >> We'll have to continue it in Palo Alto. More live coverage here at Cisco Systems' DevNet Create. It's their inaugural event for developers. It's where IoT and app developers meet infrastructure, application infrastructure (mumbles). I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris with theCube. We'll be right back. Stay with us. (techno music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy & Planning for Cisco DevNet.

>> Voiceover: Live from Austen, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker, in support from its ecosystem partners. >> And we're back. Hi I'm Stu Miniman joined by Jim Kobielus and this is theCUBE, worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Happy to have on the program, Scott McCarty, who is technical product marketing for containers with Red Hat, thanks so much for joining us! >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright so, obviously this is the big container show, You know, Red Hat, I saw when you talk about the number of contributors, you're one of the top contributors there, but first tell us a little bit about your role at Red Hat, how long you've been there, some of your passions, what do you work on? >> Yeah for sure. So I've been at Red Hat six years and I started actually as a solutions architect, six-ish years ago, came from a startup before that, and so been in the operations space for a long time, did a lot of programming, background in anthropology computer science. Yeah. >> You're dating yourself, you call it programming >> I know, I know! >> Because it's coding now! >> I know, I know! (laughs) >> I'm like, yeah, I used to program but, uh, what's this, this coding stuff. >> I am dating myself! >> Did you say anthropology? >> I did. >> Well we've got to connect it with Red Hat at some point in our interview now. >> It matters in the culture of things. >> James: Okay, yeah. >> You know, culture is important. (laughing) So did you know, a very wide swath of our portfolio I understand from being a solutions architect and then about two years ago moved into, well when Docker first started off, you know, got into containers and got pretty heavy and that, and was excited about it, and then moved into just doing strictly technical product marketing for only containers. You know, for focusing on containers. >> Okay, so talk to us about how containers fits into the Red Hat portfolio. >> So containers is really something that touches every part of our portfolio, because whether at the lower levels of like the Linux layers you know that's the actual nuts and bolts of, you know, what builds the containers and what the containers really are. But then at the other end of the stack, if you look at our storage and our middleware, containerizing those applications and then figuring out how to package them in a cloud-native way and making them work in a cloud-native way, so that they can operate inside of something like OpenShift, there's a lot of work to be done there. So there's a wide swath of tech across our entire portfolio of work around containers going on. >> Yeah, in the keynote this morning I like there's the maturation of the use cases because it sounds a lot like, you know, remember of the early days of Linux, or the early days of virtualization, once again they've put together a load of use cases and are like, "Oh, we're running applications," >> Scott: Yes. >> In a wide variety of applications in containers, so what are your customers seeing, you know, any kind of cool use cases or things that people are doing and anything new that they're doing that they couldn't do before? >> Well, so, I'll give you a little take on that, so even for the last two years that I've been going out all over the world to talk to customers, I've noticed that there's a little bit of a disconnect between the industry and kind of only focusing on the app dev side of things. I think today, kind of hearing Soloman talk about some of the more traditional use cases, traditional or non-cloud native or, we don't like to say the word legacy but people say it. >> Stu: Kind of wrapping-- >> I would argue those have been a huge portion of what people are experimenting with and playing with, but we don't talk about them. Also I think there's a little bit of a notion of this mode one, mode two kind of mentality, but that limits the way we think about it into only production workloads. So I have some really funny use cases. So I'll give you some examples, network scanning. So, like, there are some vendors that provide network scanning software and I was a couple of months back up in Canada talking to ATTO Co., and they mentioned they they were actually putting a commercial network scanning package in containers because when you think about, you see a production oracle database and, you know, you talk to the oracle DBA, and you say, "Hey I'm going to install "this giant network scanning package on your server." And they're like, "No. You're not doing that." (laughing) So a container makes it very easy to just bring that application down, do this network scanning, troubleshoot something and then delete it, it's gone. That's just a tools use case, right? But it's something that people have been doing for a long time but nobody is really talking about it. Another one is even affecting business more transformationally. So if you think about the way startups hire people, this happened to a friend of mine that's a CTO at a startup. They're interviewing a developer, it's very common to send them home with a homework program, you know? And so they send them home with the Ruby on Rails program, and he comes back with a GitHub Repo that has like a database schema file for Postgres and a working Ruby on Rails application. And there are two hiring managers. The one hiring manager says, "Okay I'm going to," And I'm sorry, also he says, "By the way, I have a Docker Repo, "you can go out and pull it down if you want, "just run my program and see if it works." The one hiring manager decides to try to rebuild it from scratch, takes about two hours messing around trying to get the database schema to work because he used the newer version of Postgres than she had on her laptop, you can imagine the dependency, you know, chaos that is. The other hiring manager literally just said, "Okay, just Docker run this thing." And then, kind of ran the container and looked at the code. The one spent two hours, you know, getting it up on her own, the other one spent five minutes. And so now if I can give you back the most valuable people in your organization, these very, very technical architects that are doing hiring decisions and trying to evaluate really critical core developers for your startup, if I can give you back two hours, and if you have to interview 10 of those, that's 20 hours of your time, that's transformational, that's really digital transformation, essentially, but for a startup, you know. Like, we don't want to have to spend all this analog time doing that. In addition to the traditional applications like databases and even, you know, typical web servers, all of those things, but not just mode two or cloud native, but also just traditional workloads. And we've been seeing that for a long time, I mean, this is similar to the virtualization journey, it's like you said, everyone said it was impossible and even two years ago was saying, "Wait a minute, just wait for this, it'll happen," and we're seeing it happen. >> Yeah. Anything particular? You know, we've made a lot of progress, but we're still working on storage, networking seems to be a little bit more mature than storage you know, what are you guys helping to work on at Red Hat and what do you want to see going forward that we come here a year from now we're going to say, "Oh, cool, we knocked down this barrier, or we're doing something even better." >> So one of the things I'm excited about is kind of if you look at the integration points between cloud infrastructure software like OpenStack and even the cloud providers, and then something like our OpenShift solution or Kubernetes, if you look at the storage and the network interactions, today the networking is pretty mature but the interaction is pretty static, so if you provision OpenStack, you know, say you have an OpenStack environment, you want to run OpenShift on top of it, you would go pre-provision kind of a VLAN, you know a subnet for it, and then you would- we rebuild, actually, key templates to deploy OpenShift inside of it, within that subnet. In the future we're investing in Courier and you know, a year from now I'd like to see some really dynamic interactions happening between OpenShift and OpenStack. I'd like to see an administer say, "Oh, I need to provision a new project "and that project needs its own network isolation." When that happens, OpenShift goes and talks to OpenStack, provisions a subnet that's encrypted with OVS, and actually it already is kind of set up, comes back, says, "Okay cool," and then can provision a project inside that. On the storage side we've actually already got that going, So we have what's called dynamic provisioning, so if you need storage inside of OpenShift and you have a persistent volume claim that needs access to storage, we actually have something called a dynamic provisionary that will actually go create that person's environment and go to talk the the storage and carve off a LUN of exactly the size you want or a NFS share of the exact size that you want. So, so, I'd like to see more and more of that dynamic provisioning happening between the infrastructure in a container environment. >> Is that as capable, uh, should we build into Kubernetes or totally independent of that? You know what I mean-- >> So the current project is kind of neutral but it would be, kind of, think of it as almost like an interface that Kubernetes will be able to use as an interface to all the networking providers. >> James: Right. >> So it's kind of a neutral, third-party thing. Really it could be used by other things other than Kubernetes. >> I want to get your take on project Moby, that was a real interesting announcement today, to what extent, would Red Hat consider possibly using that as a tool to build custom container applications for your own product family? >> Probably the most interesting thing I found about the announcement was kind of a validation of, uh, you know already a kind of strategy that we had around Project Atomic. And if you look at Origin and Project Atomic and Fedora, you know, they mention Fedora, that model. >> James: Yeah, absolutely. >> I think it's a good model, and you'll appreciate that we appreciate it. I think that, you know, there's some validation also around the idea of an immutable host, and having control over the host and honestly I think it kind of validates that the Linux itself is not a commodity, there is something actually very technical there and you do need to actually build a dry features in that kernel to actually support the containers, because I think they made the kernel hot again, you know, in a lot of ways. So I think it's validation of that and I think that's exciting. >> At the beginning we talked about culture a little bit, you know, we've interview Jim Whitehurst, so you know, I've read his book, >> Scott: Yeah. >> You know, the open organization, >> James: The anthropology. (laughs) >> You know, when you come to a show like this where, I mean, today we talked about the developer, we talked lots about open-source and, right, you know there's Linux Kit, there's the Moby Project, you know, all these different things out in open-source, what's your take on this ecosystem and what's going on in the industry? >> I think ecosystems are harder to build than what people first think. I don't think you can just, so if you look at certain, you know if I were to analyze the way open source works, you know there sot of open-core models which are like, "Let's give enough away to get free marketing." Then there's kind of open-source models where we give away all the code but we don't really have a community, we don't really take patches, we just put it out there, use it however you want, that's fine. And then I think there's truly community-driven open-source which is what Red Hat really tries to focus on. So if you're able to get Fedora, it's truly a community. I think building those and maintaining those takes a lot of nurturing and a lot of care and a lot of love and feeding. And I also think it takes a lot of discipline around allowing these best-of-breed ideas to kind of happen the way they're going to happen and then also fail if they don't work. And so that can be tough, you know. If you look at the model of a lot of startups, it's more kind of like unilaterally make decisions and then kind of release it and then if it sticks, and it's fail-fast. The community-driven model is a lot harder to handle because consensus is harder to build and so you've seen Jim talk about this, I mean one of the dangers in an open organization of our size is consensus, finding consensus and not going towards a completely consensus-driven decision model. But that's hard because you have to satisfy everybody in the community and make sure everybody's getting something out and everybody's putting something in. And so it's tough. >> It's funny, I remember in OpenStack for a couple of years, it's like, "Do we need, you know, the fanatical dictator "of this ecosystem?" Red Hat, obviously is not, you know, a fanatical dictator of its community. >> You can't win. Do you think Docker has a fanatical dictator of their community? (laughter) >> I, I, I'm sure the-- >> Or is the person a visionary, I mean, you know they'll put the positive euphemism on it. >> Yeah, yeah. Or the joking word in the community is the benevolent dictator. >> Yeah. >> The benevolent dictator for life, I think some of the communities work that way. >> Yeah. >> I think if you look at Python, you look at Linux, you know, it works that way. But if you've all got bigger projects, and I don't want to date myself, but you think about KDE and Gnome, and some of those, there's no benevolent dictator, they're so big and so wide-reaching again. Such, you know, wide-use case differences between what people do with them, but I think it's hard to have that. There are visionaries, you know, within the group. And even that's true in the kernel, I mean if you look at what's happened, you know, Linus has other generals essentially that kind of, I mean it's become a very big community, a very boisterous community. I think that that takes again, though, a lot of discipline and maintenance to make that happen and keep that alive. >> Alright, Scott, to take us on home, why don't you give us a little view as to what Red Hat has going on this week, of course you guys have your big show Red Hat Summit coming up in a couple of weeks, we'll have theCUBE there, I'm excited to be there, also, but you know, talk a little bit about this week and what you guys are doing. >> So this week, you know, we're excited because we have kind of a bunch of three-five You know, I don't know if you guys, have you guys heard about Atomic Image? We released Atomic Image? >> So it was not discussed in Brian's interview this morning, so. >> Okay! >> We would love to hear a little bit about it. >> So Atomic Image, we've kind of looked at some of the use cases around how people are consuming containers and I've blogged on about this and talked and honestly it's pretty deep technically when you kind of get into it. It's about having, you know, Soloman talked about it today, you know, image size matters, and there is definitely a hunger for smaller images, you don't want to have stuff that you don't want. But that is also a very fine-line balance. So the challenge being that the typical way that enterprises operate is that they have a core build where they will add all the pieces that core build that they think should be everywhere, right? Because you don't, like, say you need a fundamental core library like glibc, you wouldn't add that to all of the different applications, you would add it once and then inherit it in all the, so it's kind of the dry model, do not repeat yourself, right? So when you get into this dry model you got to balance the size of that base image versus, you know and it's flexibility versus conciseness, and you know, how concise it is. Atomic Image, though, is meant for, we essentially released a very minimal image that matters for those very concise applications, so if you look at like a C binary that's very small, maybe all it needs is DNS resolutions, some other services from the OS from the userspace, it doesn't need much, but it's a real small binary, it wants a really small image to live on. So we released something called Atomic Image really targeting those use cases-- >> I don't know if I remember if Atomic is launched, so it sounds a lot like what Docker announced with the Linux Kit today, too. >> So, it's, flip-side of it-- >> Maybe you could compare contrast a little bit. >> Yeah so, so I would compare Linux Kit to Atomic Coast, which we've had for a long time. >> Stu: Okay. >> Which is the Kernel and systemd and kind of what runs the containers, right? But now we've released a different userspace setup that's smaller-- >> Stu: Oh I got that, okay. >> For, to run on top of, you know. >> So like an agile minimum viable product, this is a minimum viable container >> Yes. >> For a particular function. >> Yeah exactly, like BusyBox or some of the smaller images that you want to play with. >> And Scott, do you guys have their website or some documentation that you recommend people starting with on your sites? Yeah absolutely, I swear, I think Project Atomic's a great place to start. >> Stu: And that's in the blogs, I'm assuming, right? >> It is, if you blog for Atomic Image, too, you'll find a REL Blog entry, so REL Blog's a good place to kind of find some of that stuff, so relblog.redhat.com And then also if, if you look on just redhat.com. And also out container catalog is a good place to actually go get started with that. So if you go to access.redhat.com/containers. >> James: We'll get to that. >> Scott McCardy, it's great catching up with you. Next time we have you on we got to get the story behind "fatherlinux" as your-- >> Yes! (laughs) >> Alright, but we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017, thank you for watching theCUBE.

hi Jeff I here with the cube we are in the studio and Palo Alto the cube studio offices for a cute conversation talking about storage enterprise storage cloud and all the things that are keeping us up at night in the excitement that we see every day out in the field so we're really excited to be joined by gnomes and are who comes in all the time for sadara storage and you brought in a special gates dave elliott global product lead storage google cloud platform welcome Dave thanks for having me so we'll get right into it big announcement don't tell us all about it sure we're super excited to announce that we're now connected up to the Google cloud platform our customers know already that we've connected to the other two major providers amazon web services in microsoft azure and we've been working diligently on what we think is the most exciting addition to that and that's google cloud platform it's available right now it's immediately available it means that any customer of google cloud platform can take advantage of our award-winning enterprise storage as a service connected directly to virtual machines at google cloud so it clearly you know completes the the try fact at which wich we know you know that is the power right now in the public cloud but what's special about google cloud platform that you can get that the other providers don't offer to your customers google cloud is special because we all know google the search engine company and because google has been doing this for so long they have the existing infrastructure so google has global data centers with the networks connecting those global data centers such that customers wherever they are I can connect through hundreds of edge locations for low-latency access to the clap so whereas with the other major clouds the customer has to be physically close to the actual cloud location for optimal latency google cloud customers have far more flexibility in terms of location and we think this will do even more to get more people on board cloud with our enterprise applications okay so Dave what I want to know is are you going to paint as the Darra rack colors I think you got a google bike out front the yellow the green or red right so what does this mean free for for google obviously you guys have storage you have massive amounts towards we all have lots of stuff on on our Google on our personal Google storage as well as are you know little the cube storage so what does this mean for your customers so so really it to put it in context as enterprises move to the cloud there there are different requirements from maybe pure-play startups so we've had fantastic success we've been in the cloud business now for I think nine years but as we mature as a business and as customers mature and and make it clear that they want to move more and more workloads to the cloud their requirements though still look significantly in many cases like the requirements from the old days right from the legacy vendors I'm a storage guy and I know there are certain there are certain requirements around s la's performance ability to to move between clouds from on-prem to the cloud and so as Google matures as our customers ask for these type this type of functionality we are able to meet those requirements by working with sadara so this really gives you that yes we have that check box when you're getting into a hardcore enterprise guys may be new to the cloud or you know you wants that comfort level right he's going to have all the stuff you had before but now exact it's gonna be sitting in your guys so it's structure it's it's two use cases right it's the traditional customer consumer customer enterprise customer who has today their workloads running on primer and private their own private data centers or kolos and it's the customers today that are running on our compute instances who love our compute instances but perhaps are holding back from moving some of those more delicate workloads to the clouds lizard to general use case right because that's that's really the point it's not just about storage for the customer the storage is an enabler for his applications all right so this really opens up a whole another set of applications for the other Google services that doesn't really compete directly with the storage exactly exactly that's it so as customers move you know the really interesting things happen is customers move those we're close to the cloud they could then take advantage of you know layered on other services like like data analytics and learning and things like that and so it's really about really everything I think about this relationship is about helping enterprises move migrate more and more workloads to the cloud in a more seamless way right so it's kind of a good news bad news for you know you know the good news is now you're partnering with Google the bad news is they got a lot of they have a lot of reach and distribution are you guys ready you know what's the impact on your business now having this humongous partner distribution network potential new client network you guys ready support that what kind of new challenges does that present to you guys it'll present growth challenges but we're we're ready so what we've done is made sure that we have the support infrastructure in place and also the sales infrastructure in place so if customers need help prior to the sale during the Sailor after the sale we have different teams that handle this and we have partners as well that's a big change for us in the last couple of years switching from a fully direct model to a model that's now sixty percent partner driven in that number is growing those partners are helping us with especially with integration the customer may need storage but also they may need to deploy other applications in google cloud those partners put it all together and provide a single let's use the positive expression is a single back to pass a single bat de facto sort the choker yes your own champagne as they like to say exact and one of the things we've talked about not fair for we turn on the cameras is is that you were excited about is really the distribution of Google and specifically google access points because latency is real as Grace Hopper said you know the speed of light is just too damn slow so you really need those access points to get to the compute and the store to make cloud work the way you want it to work exactly for example a common request is to connect remote clients to central storage repository so with the with with most clouds that's limited by a public network and the Layton sees and the hops that come along with that with Google's peering capabilities pretty much everybody is closer to the compute that Google than other than other clots and we know this because when we do the search and we get the answer back in point 0 0 1 2 seconds right a big a big piece of that is is the latency between us and whatever Google location is doing that search for us the compute benefits from that the clout the Google cloud benefits from that and therefore our customers due to right and David and I presume this is just one of a number of steps within Google clouds you know kind of pursuit of the enterprise and moving the more you know can enterprise customers enterprise workloads into the Google cloud platform yeah that's that's a one hundred percent accurate I mean we continue to build out the organization we build out part we're building our partnership and of course the products to better meet the needs of larger enterprises that that have just unique needs I will I will thank you for pointing out that the differentiator on the network it's something that I think people intuitively understand but you know the the the depth and breadth of our network networking expertise has been unbelievable as opposed to most cloud vendors we want to get the data we want to get the bits on to our network as quickly as possible because we keep it on our network because we're so efficient and be able to move the bits from point A to point B and and I think that's really the big the big differentiator why you see you know such better response such such lower latency and it's not just about the latency it's also about the predictability of Joseph and so just to clarify so once it gets into the Google Network wherever that point of access is then it's contained within the Google that right right so we write we've innovated around networking for four since our early days things like open flow and software-defined networking are things that have you know great genesis inside of inside of Google and so for us to move that data onto our network is just more again faster and more reliable for our customers and for our own data right we able to leverage our own infrastructure for own services I think we have seven services now with over a billion customers and just out of sheer necessity we've had to innovate in and around networking right we've done a couple piers shows where you know just reinforces the fact you want to get off the public backbone as quickly as you can depending on how ever you need to communicate with either your own internal stuff or with somebody else and then it's just kind of a signal that you guys will be bringing in other products obviously not necessarily a competing software software defined product but just other kind of enterprise e-type solutions to offer your customers in pursuit of this kind of ongoing Enterprise path yeah I think I think that there are a lot of simulator similarities if I would drive the draw the Venn diagram between what a high-performance successful customer like snapchat one of one of our larger customers or Spotify what they require and what what some of the larger enterprises or even smaller enterprises with just very very large you know compute-intensive storage intensive requirements are so there is a Venn diagram there's a lot of overlap and we continue to to leverage our own internal investments and things like live migration of compute instances things around innovative pricing to really drive home the the low cost of cloud and the agility of cloud things like customizable VMs so you only get the the actual machine that you need so we're going to continue to innovate around that and be able to make sure that both enterprise customers and our you know sort of the the high-flying startups still have the ability to to take advantage of right right and is that new information for you guys that you can leverage because clearly like a snapchat which uses massive amount of data you have massive growth rates I mean you have these we talk a lot about the consumerization of IT in terms of the experience of interacting with an application on your phone that you want to be like when you interact with snapchat although I can never figure snapchat outer left swipe right but where you can start to use some of those lessons that you guys have learned in your broader application experience to bring to bear with your solution as well as for your customers exactly so we have two goals in this relationship one is one is to help the existing customers of the Google cloud platform do more so that means I take the existing applications and maybe they can benefit in terms of better performance reliability so do more also need to bring new applications into the Google cloud platform maybe the customer moved some early applications over into the cloud but left others on Prem we'd like to see those move into the cloud as well and then the remaining goal is to move customers who are not at all in the cloud into Google Cloud in the end by providing these capabilities we think that's that's the last impediment the customer may sit there and say yes the compute capabilities are fantastic I trust them and network capabilities we just talked about them they're there world-leading storage I'm not sure I have what I need I know if I have the I apps that I need I don't have the uptime that I need or even protocol support or features disaster recovery snapchat snap shots etc but now they're there so there's no reason not to go yeah it's exciting time so congratulations um really a big announcement obviously tremendous infrastructure by partnering with google it mean i don't know that there's anything quite like it developed over all these years I talked to school the other day my own you right good logic 65,000 like wow it's not the little startup that we that we think of over in in Mountain View anymore it and congratulations day to to really make an aggressive move on the enterprise with really putting a flag in the in the ground if you will well we're just I think we're just at the beginning I think in X the next several years in fact next decade or so it's gonna be pretty exciting time all right well thanks for stopping by the palatal offices I think you could see it thank you to thank you right dave elliott gnome send our Jeff Rick you're watching the cube will catch you next time thanks for watching