>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, we're here at DockerCon 2017 in beautiful Austin, Texas, had a great party down on Rainy Street last night, 5500 people and many of them, a good majority of them made it to keynote this morning, but we're checking in with a lot of guests here, happy to welcome onto the program. I've got a returning guest in a new role and I have a new guest, so both of you from Puppet, Deepak Giridharagopal, who's the CTO and Omari Gazitt, who's the Chief Product Officer. We caught up with you at a previous cloud role that you had had. Deepak, since it's your first time on the program, you've been with Puppet for awhile now, can you give our audience a little bit about your background and your role? >> Sure, so, I've, software guy, I've been programming forever, done a bunch of different start-ups, actually lived in Austin and was part of the Austin start-up scene for quite some time, so I went to school here. So, I've been here for maybe 15 years, something like that. >> Is that a Hook'em Horns or is that a? >> It's Hook'em Horns, yeah, absolutely. So, UT computer science and also, fellow Texan, not UT but from Rice so, there you go. >> That's right. >> Owl's are okay too. But yeah, I've been working here for awhile, previous start-up I was at did a lot of email archival and stuff like that, so I was an early engineer there. We ended up getting acquired by Dell, but that was during an era where we charged people based on storage, so the more we could store, the more money we could make, but that was really early on into how you use software to scale out a bunch of systems and things like that, so that's how I got involved with Puppet the project before I actually joined the company, so I ended up using a lot of that stuff to build out all the systems that we had, maintained a lot of relationships with the community, have a lot of patches inside of Puppet core, so eventually joined the company. So now I've been there for about six years, I'm CTO and Chief Architect, so I'm responsible for all the ones and zeros, I guess and overall technical strategy. >> Alright, so Omri, how long ago did you find Puppet and tell us about your role. >> Absolutely, seven weeks ago, so, you know, fresh, brand new but very excited about this new role, as Deepak said, I'm also a fellow Texan. I went to school at the cross-town rival, maybe the different city rival at Rice but, I don't think we've ever beat UT in football, maybe once. So, I don't even know what the Rice equivalent of Hook'em Horns is. I spent many years at bit companies like Microsoft where I helped start .NET and was really deeply involved in Azure as well as well as HP where I ended up being the General Manager and Vice President for the Helium platform. For that I did a number of start-ups, including one here in Texas, in Houston that ended up going public and the fun thing about coming back to Texas. The last time I was here was Open Stack Summit in Austin. It's always going to get great Tex Mex, so really enjoyed that last night as well. >> Alright, so Deepak, you've been with Puppet long enough that you know, there was no Docker in there. >> That's true. >> Containers did exist, can you walk us through, you have an architect role, how does containers impact your product and how your customers are using you? >> I mean, I think it's, there's a lot of interest, I think. There's almost, I don't think there's a single customer or really user that I go and talk to and I talk to a lot of them that are unaware of containerization. They know it's a thing. I do think though that a lot of them are trying to fit it into their brains and I think that's kind of the main role that we kind of play because the products that we build and all the projects that we have, the open source or commercial stuff, it's all about helping people automate, deploy, manage all the software that they've got, no matter what kind of software it is. So containerization to a lot of these folks, they come to us kind of asking, okay, well, I've heard a lot about it or I'm getting a lot of pressure from development teams to start deploying stuff using it, how do we adopt that kind of technology in a way that comports with all the rest of our practices for managing our software, which for a lot of customers, they're still in the process of evolving because a lot of the people we talk to, they come to us to kind of move from more of the older way of managing deploying and automating their stuff into more of a DevOps kind of mindset where rapid iteration, continuous delivery, so the technology is definitely a big part of it, the processes are also a big part of it, but ultimately I think they come to us saying, this is really cool, it seems very different than virtualization, you know, so how do we actually deal with that? How do we enforce security policies on all these things? How do we deploy it? Can we share code? How do we stand up the container infrastructure itself? I don't know anything about software defined networking, now I have to. How do I get that expertise and how do I configure that, manage it and the applications themselves that are containerized now, they're just architected and built, and in many cases, fundamentally different ways than software of previous generations and that requires a lot of uplift of the rest of an organization in order to make that stuff possible. So it's happening, but I think there's definitely a gulf between the, you know, kind of leading edge and a lot of the stuff that we've seen here in the keynotes today, which have been awesome, there's a ton of great stuff they've announced for systems builders and things like that. I can build custom kernels and all kinds of stuff, that's great, but there's a huge gulf between the leading edge tech like that and that tool chain and what I think most enterprises can fit into their heads. What they understand, what they have established practices around and you know, we have to meet in the middle. Obviously we can't bring all the new tech and make it snap to this line of how we used to do things, 'cause that's not going to work, but simultaneously, we can't just shift everybody over to doing absolutely everything brand new because they have this thing called paying customers and revenue generating software that's already running, so, how do you bridge that gap and that's where I view our role is, being that bridge to the future. >> Actually one of the things I liked in the keynote, they said it would be great if we just had this kind of easy button, that we do things but I think, as you said, you help customers take what they have, move them forward, help make it easier. You joined the company, why is it exciting at Puppet these days, how do things like containerization fit into your thoughts going forward? >> Absolutely, I'm super excited to be at the company. I've worked most of my career really serving the developer customer, the developer constinuency, and one of the things that I saw working in the container ecostystem over the last few years is that there really is a lot of excitement from development in organizations around effectively packaging microservices in a new way and the advantages here are real. There is a lot of acceleration that you get but the larger movement of DevOps is actually how you get that agility, that velocity, that Ben was talking about in his keynote today. There's only one mode and that is quick, right, and that resonated strongly with me because we saw, we saw that exactly in large companies like HP and obviously at Puppet now where, at the core of the value that we bring to our customers is helping them transform, helping them do things in a more cross-functional way, in a way where they can accelerate delivery from taking months to taking days or even hours and Puppet's point of view largely comes from the Ops part of DevOps and our customers are asking us, what's our role, what's our evolving role in this new world and that's exactly why it's so exciting to be part of a company that is actually bringing that unique point of view and most of our customers are asking, great, containers, now what? What about all the things that we have to worry about? What about security? What about compliance? What about reporting? What about kind of having visibility into my entire estate of things? That doesn't change just because you go from running things on bare metal to running things in VM's, with containers, we have another order of magnitude increase of the number of things you're managing and so, the management challenges just become larger and our job, the way that we see our job is to really help our customers transition, employ these accelerate technologies like Docker, like containerization, and the container platforms, but do it in a way that, make sure that these operators continue to be able to their jobs, to get the visibility and the control they need to make sure that they deliver on the Dev of the business as well. >> Yeah, I had an interesting conversation with Soloman Hikes earlier on theCUBE here and he said his background was actually on the operations side and when they built Docker it was the developers as their customer, want to throw it out to the both of you, is to kind of that, that developer operator and then kind of your enterprise buyer, how's that dynamic changing? We've watched the whole DevOps discussion for many years as to kind of, who do you sell to, who's actually got budget, who makes decisions? Is it some c-level management that said, oh, I read about this and do it or the developers bubbling things up? Where are things today, what are you seeing? >> Well, I definitely think the sort of, the era of, you have one of two really high level buyers that make all these decisions about everything is going to be architected. It's all going to be built in this way, it's all going to work in this way, this is how, operationally, it's going to work, security is going to be enforced this way mostly by just saying no to things, the way we make things stable in production is to say no to making changes. If IT of the late '90's was a political party or the 2000's was a political party, it would be no, we can't, which doesn't make any sense anymore. So I think in 2017, I view, especially with respect to containerization, I think the big change is around empowerment and I think the DevOps movement, in many ways is about fostering collaboration and empowerment, so you don't want to have a separate security function that just puts, I'm going to secure this application at the very end of the assembly line, that doesn't work, just like it never worked for quality assurance or anything like that. We'll make it work, we'll put QA in at the very end, ideally you want all of that baked in as early as possible and I think stuff like containers, I think the rise of containerization has enabled developers to feel more empowered over a large swath of the staff then they previously maybe had the ability to be. So, if you believe in the idea of a container as being the unit of delivery of software in the future, I mean, that's a pretty powerful abstraction. So if I'm a developer at my laptop, I could put all kinds of stuff into this black box and the power is, I have all the autonomy inside that box. I can do whatever I want with it and that's very empowering, that's a lot of responsibility. I think the flip side though and I think something that we learned as part of the DevOps movement as well is that it can just be about developer empowerment. It has to also be about operation empowerment. It has to be about security empowerment. If you think about it, I think there's a future, I hope this isn't the one that we actually get, but I think there's a future where, for example, all developers are building everything with containers are like great, I can put all the stuff I want in this black box and then, here you go, here you go operations team, here's this black box that you can do anything you want with it, I mean, that's kind of a 2017 tech version of throwing it over the wall, right, because the people with the pager still have to care about what's inside that black box and now, if you have a hundred development teams doing thousands of containers all the time, that's way more black boxes that you have to manage. So if you're an IT director or a CIO or something like that and you have to deal with your entire estate of stuff, that's a pretty gnarly problem and then you have to combine that with all the previous generations of software that you still have and you still have to maintain. So, I understand why our customers come to us a lot of times and ask us, is there a unified way that we can kind of model and manage all the stuff that we've got? How do we see inside a lot of these things that are opaque and they are black boxes so, I'm aiming more for a future where the containers uses that unit of delivery for software but it's used as a coordination point where it's not just developers putting whatever they want in a Docker file, it's developers and Op staff coordinating to figure out, how do we stitch these containers together into a proper application? How do we secure it? Does it meet all of our standards and things like that and that's pretty great. I'm very optimistic about that. That's a place I want to be in. >> I, just to amplify a little bit, it's great to be at a company where the users love the software. Our selling motion typically is a bunch of practitioners at a company really love using our software and then we get a call from the CIO saying, hey, we have thousands of nodes under management, we would like to have a deeper relationship with you, let's go have a conversation about that, so that's a fantastic validation of the value of the product as a tool of empowerment and I would say that, just to echo Deepak's point, it's all about end to end velocity. If you're just making the dev's go faster, you're not necessarily relieving the right bottlenecks and we've seen that, even in our own development. As I've come up to speed on how Puppet does things, some of the impressive pieces of focus really are on our own value steam, how the technology, value stream, in terms of how we get ideas to our customers. We always think about inserting operations folks, security folks, QA, development, product management, project management altogether and collaborating from the beginning of a project or beginning of a sprint and that, in effect, speeds up everything. Again, to echo Deepak's point, if you just make the life of the dev better or faster, you may not actually be solving for total velocity. >> Great point about why you guys are sticky, why your customers love you. Omri, I'm sure you've got great viewpoint, but Deepak, feel free to chime in, the cloud providers themselves, I look at the platforms out there. I mean Docker is a platform provider, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, others out there, some of your previous employers build platforms and they're trying to simplify and add automation and do this thing, why are you guys, is this a big opportunity for you guys, where do you guys become relevant or even more relevant as time goes on with these platforms? You want to start, Omri? >> Absolutely, so, the cloud is the big platform disruption of our time, in our industry and you're either going to ride it or get washed over by it and the most important thing that brought me to a company like Puppet is just this huge opportunity as our customers are moving to cloud platforms with more and more of their workloads, the ability to manage a more heterogeneous set of things becomes even more imperative, right? The more complexity you have, the more you need tools to help you manage through that complexity and so, as we see our customers start managing those in the cloud, our job is to make that friction free for them, so, make it as easy as possible to adopt Puppet in AWS of in Azure or in any of these cloud platforms and on top of that, I would say, we are also moving our entire portfolio to the cloud, to become cloud native. To deliver in a way that again, takes a lot of the burden off of our customer's hands because if you see the move to cloud, one of the most attractive pieces of it for enterprises is that they can give up some or perhaps most of even all of the operations burden to another vendor and that's an incredible kind of efficiency gainer for these enterprises. They don't want to run software anymore. Now, the vast majority of our customers still run software and not just our software, a whole bunch of other software, but their aspiration long term is to be able to hand some of that or maybe most of that management burden to their vendors and that's exactly the journey that we're also on, so that's why it's super exciting to be at a company that sees that opportunity, that vision and the expansion of market that gives us. >> I agree 100%. I think the big change for people that build applications or manage applications if they want to put them on the cloud is like at the amusement park, they have the sign where you have to be this tall to ride, if you want to have your stuff work in the cloud, you have to be this automated to ride. You just have to because otherwise there's no point, I mean, what's the point of putting your stuff on EC2 and I can elastically bring up a zillion instances of something if I have to provision them by hand or if I have to reconfigure them by hand. It just becomes a really expensive, absurdly expensive way to run a traditional workload that isn't ready for something like the cloud so that's way I'm really optimistic about our role and our customers are really, we have a huge amount of coordination and involvement with them trying to get them that automated so that they can take advantage of a lot of this technology. I also think that just the idea of being able to, for a lot of our customers and users, moving stuff onto the cloud itself, that's challenging. I don't think it's as easy. I know there are plenty of people that have tools that do these kinds of things but I just don't find it that easy to simply say, yep, you can just forklift your thing and now it's a cloud app. There's more stuff you've got to do and, in my mind, I think step one, if you have an app and if you have a workload and you want to move it to somewhere else, step one is you got to model what that workload actually looks, how that works. You have to have an understanding of how that's supposed to behave. That way, after you move it, ideally automation helps you move it, that's where our software comes in, but at a minimum, if you've got an understanding of how it worked before, now after you've transplanted it, you can actually validate it works the way that you want it to work. So I think automation is, it's non-negotiable. You have to have that and if you're not using a platform that lets you do that, then, I don't know, you're going to have a really hard time and unless you're planning on having all over infrastructure, 100% of your estate with a single vendor in the cloud, you're going to need a platform that works across everything that you've got, from your mainframe processing all your trillions of dollars of currency transactions or something like that, all the way to the app you built a year ago that you thought was oh current, maybe before you picked up a book on containers and the stuff that you're going to build tomorrow that's going to be cloud native and you don't want 18 different tools for 18 different vendors managing stuff in 18 different ways 'cause that's not really, I don't see that as a path to scaling out what you can do. >> Yeah, it reminds me of another quote that Ben used in a keynote is you need to be past and future proof, so yeah, we're going to have to leave it there, Deepak and Omri, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for watching theCUBE. >> Omri: Thanks. >> Deepak: Thank you very much. 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(techno music) >> Narrator: From Austin, Texas It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from EnSync System Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, here with Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program. Someone we've had on theCUBE many times, Ben Golub, who is the CEO of Docker. Welcome Back. Hey, congratulations to you and the team. >> Oh hey, thank you, and I'd like to say, this is our favorite time of year. Followed very closely by the week after DockerCon and we no longer have to do it. >> Absolutely, I mean, look, I'd say the word that stuck out for me the most this morning is, 'scaleability'. So, we talk about how customers are thinking about scaleability, how you scale the different solutions you have. And, look at the scale of an event like this. So, you know, we've got, you know, this big event here, 5,500 people ... Which we were reminiscing back to like the first DockerCon and the growth of this. It's impressive and it's done really well. I haven't seen people griping about taking an hour to check in, the food's been good ... You know, the lines haven't been. >> Ben: Yeah, good. >> And, Austin always a fun place to come, >> Absolutely. >> Apropos for all the open source stuff that's going on. >> Yeah, the only problem is, this is the first place where we've had a Docker conference, where we haven't been at a port. So, like all of these great, look at the containers ships outside, you know, we can no longer do that. But, that's okay. >> Uh, Vancouver would maybe be good. I remember actually, I did puns for an entire week when we were at Open Stack Summit in Vancouver. Overlooking the bay there cause there is container ships everywhere. >> Ben: Is that right? >> So Ben, you know please just bring us up to speed ... Kind of you, the team, we've gone through a lot of the announcements but, so some of the highlights for it. >> Yeah, I mean, I mean obviously this morning we had a lot of fantastic announcements. We talked about Lenox Kit. We talked about Mobi. You saw, just huge improvements in the developer flow. Tomorrow is going to be a lot about enterprise. For me, that's really the most exciting change that we've seen over the past year. It's just an explosion of Docker and the enterprise. You know, Docker has brought on over 400 enterprise class customers. Some of the largest names uh, really in the industry right? And, some of them like, MetLife and VISA and Intuit, will be talking live tomorrow. Um, and what's been especially interesting for us is that, the use of Docker is not just for Greenfield projects. Um, Docker's being used to keep planes in the air, keep trains running on time, and it's being used in the largest, some of the largest financial transactions, handling, you know, millions and millions of transactions a day, right? And, that's really exciting for us, it's also very humbling. >> All those used cases you throw out, it's Docker cover lots of applications, from a wide variety of things. It reminds of what we've see. >> Right, right. A lot of them are, you know, they're 15 three year old applications as well as, you know, two minute old applications. >> Yeah, and it's something we've been picking at is how much is it the new stuff, and how much is it the platform, that can bring some of the older stuff in. And, then we look at how we change it over time. I think it's something we've been struggling with, kind of, whole cloud and app, you know, modernization, for years now. >> Yeah, well I think it's really good. I think, um, that there's this sort of, there's this fallacy, that sort of persisted for a while, where people thought, okay, you know if you're going to have BiModal IT, there's going to be the new cool stuff down in the containers running the cloud, and then all that old stuff is just going to wither and die in some dark data center somewhere. >> Yeah, right. >> It doesn't match what we hear. >> That's absolutely not the case actually, you know. If we look across our customer base, you know, about 50% of them are beginning their Docker journey with their traditional apps. Now that's not where it ends. But, you know, if you think about it just by taking 80% or 90% of the apps out there, our traditional applications run in, you know, traditional infrastructure. And, just by taking a traditional application, you put it inside of a Docker container, you know, automatically you're getting, without changing a single line of code, something between 75% and 5X better resource utilization. You're able to do simple things like, upgrade your data base, or move from an old machine to a new machine, or old data center to a new data center. Again, without changing a single line of code. But, then the magic starts. >> Right? Then you start taking that traditional application, and treating it in a more modern way. CICD, gradually breaking it down into smaller and smaller bits, and that's the way it goes. >> So, You know, some of has struggled. We said, remember back to virtualization. Virtualization has the easy low hanging fruit of, oh, I can consolidate. I can get great utilization. %I can save a lot of money. I think you did a good job laying out. You know, in your last statement there. But, it's not as simple, you know? When it gets bubbled up to the customers, you know, the board, the sea level, when they're doing this. What is it they're like? What's the initiative they're running? Cause, it's not ... Nobody says, oh I have a container problem. >> Ben: Uh, right, right, we fix it. >> What is that business need, you know, that you're helping to, you're helping them to itch? >> Well, it's something all they need to, they need to be more efficient. They need to be faster, right? >> And, Docker helps you do that if you're running brand spanking new applications. >> Yeah, but she loves that. We talked about that for a while. >> It's agility. But, you know, part of agility is also making sure that your existing applications don't weigh you down, right? And, and that they actually support your business gradually going forward. >> Yeah. And, I mean, one of the things, one of the things that excited me about containers in the early days, is ... I'm an infrastructure guy, and, infrastructure has always held us back. and, the atomic, you know, you know, containers bring the applications really as the atomic note. yIt's not the server or their VM. It's the app, or you know, the 12 factor, you know, app there so. So if the app's driving it, not that infrastructure matters, but, it's not the thing driving it. >> Right, well the ... by focusing on the app, we actually let people choose the infrastructure that they want, or migrate from, you know one style of infrastructure to another style, over time. Uh, what it also though means is, if you're focusing on the app, or on the container, then how do you think about security, and how do you think about networking, and how you think about compliance? Uh, all of those things need a refresh. But, the good news is &once you do that refresh, it's actually much faster, and much more efficient. >> Alright, So you know John Furrier wouldn't let this interview come without, you know popping in. So, he is just sending me a note, and he said, "What is the intersection between the cloud native, and the app developers, that you're seeing?" >> Uh, the internet intersection between the cloud native ... >> Cloud native and app developers. >> Um, you know, I think that developers want to build really cool stuff. And, if they build a cloud native, that's fantastic. Um, if they want to build it, not being cloud native, that's very cool too, right? We're seeing this whole generation of, of developers who, you know, may have been working in Java for the past 15 years, or working in, ah, dot net. Um, They're able to do really, really cool things. Um, With Docker, uh, and it actually helps bring them into the cloud native space. But, you don't have to rewrite an amazing application, just because of your architecture, your infrastructure is changing. >> Yeah, you can wrap and refactor, and migrate your existing applications at the pace that you wish. Uh, rather than being forcibly upgraded or migrated. >> That's right, that's right. You also don't need to know what cloud you're going to be running on four years from now. Or, what infrastructure you're going to be running on, or, what your apps going to be able to do, right? Um, you know, this stuff happens organically with Docker. And, that's really part of the beauty of it. >> You know you are developing for the multi-cloud. In other words, the cloud you're on today, and the clouds you might be on tomorrow, and a flexible or graceful transition. And, you know, it's really cloud churn over time you're going to be on a variety of clouds, and you just want to make sure your applications, and your data and all your assets are easily migrate-able. >> Yeah, I think you stated that really well, and I think especially as people start looking into, you know, applications where they want to burst, or applications that are sort of big data where they want to, you know, be moving the application to the data rather than the date to the applications, right? Um, it needs to be multi-cloud because actually, or multi-location, right? Um, and we're happy to help with that. >> Um, so, we've watched the maturity of the technology, and the growth of the system. I mean, I think a lot of us were really happy. Eco system, I mean, you know, Soloman did a great job of highlighting that. To be honest, some of the swarm stuff, with Docker data center last year, felt like ... >> Felt like we were fighting, yeah. >> It felt like a little bit of fighting, and it feels like we're healing, and we're coming together, and, we're growing that. So, maybe speak on that a little bit. But, the follow up question I have for you on kind of the business is, I think we're still pretty early in the modernization strategy for this. And, I think it's good for people to realize that. That, you know, all of this stuff doesn't happen over night. It's amazing to see how far it's come, you know, In just four years of the company. Um, but, you know, I'll let you riff on those two things. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I'll start with the first one, which is, um, you know, fighting within the eco system. You know, there's this sort of this saying that, you know, people hate people of a slightly different sect, more than they hate pagans, right? (laughing) so I think sometimes within, within like the open source community, oh, you take a slightly different approach towards orchestration than I would of taken, therefore, we should be enemies. And, then suddenly you take a step back and say, "now wait a minute, we're all trying to do the same thing. Build great apps and make the world, uh, enable people to build great things, Right?" And, I think as Solomon laid out today, right? Orchestration, container run time, security, networking, various slavers of the security. These are all things, that actually should be really atomic, and we should be able to all collaborate on them. So, you're seeing a lot more of that. Cause also what we're seeing is in terms of modernization you know, modernization isn't a single, isn't driven by a single factor. It's not driven by orchestration, or it's not driven by networking. It's really, what we're seeing more and more is that it's being driven by the supply chain. And it's how do I as an enterprise, with lots of developers building lots of different types of apps. Some are old, some are new, some are Lenix, some are Windows, some are running on Prim, some are running in the cloud. How do I manage that supply chain, and have it be secure no matter where it's going? And, that's where we're able to add a lot of value. What we're finding as a business, to get to your point. Is that we'll meet the customer wherever they want to start. Our business model, our subscription model, we charge based off of you know, nodes per year, or nodes per minute, if you really want to go there. And, we just let them gradually start using more and more and more. So we're actually very excited. Not only do we have, you know, 400 large customers, and you know, 10,000 smaller customers. But, we're seeing every customer is expanding, is renewing, and so customers who were on 40 nodes six months ago, are now on 400, 500, a 1,000 nodes. We have on 12,000 node customer, uh, and that's really good for our business model. >> Yeah, the other question from Furrier is, you know, what KPI's are you tracking this year? Are you talking, 400 enterprise customers, you look at, you know, the size of how many employees you have, you know. What are some of the growth drivers and levers that you guys are playing with this year? >> Yeah, it's honestly for us, the most important metrics that we're looking at is, is obviously number of new users, how that translates into number of new customers. You know, within the customers, how many nodes are they deploying on, and most importantly, how many more of them? >> What about your host, is that growing too? >> That's growing too, right, right? So, designated containers for host is growing. Ah, and for us, the KPI is okay. You know, how are those customers doing? How many of them are renewing? How many of them are expanding? Um, and for us, you know, I think that sort of brings it back to the customer level. We do a good job with the customers, especially with this subscription business model. I think that sort of forces you to, if you invest in the customer, they're going to invest in you. >> Yeah, um, speaking of money, we've got Cherry Chen coming on next. And, as far as you're saying, there's a lot of top VC's here. What do you see that, what's driving investment in this area? Um, you know, where are you guys with dollars? Anything you can you say on that? Just kind of the VC investment end. >> Okay, tell Furrier if he wants to ask difficult questions, you've got to be sitting here, otherwise ... (laughing) Um, uh, no, so, so, we're seeing ... >> He's shy, he can only talk through an intermediary. >> Yeah. I understand. John is not shy. >> Talk for yourself John. >> Um, we're very happy about what's happening with our modernization. We're seeing the top line growing much, much faster than the expanse line growing. I mean, if we want them to cross right at a certain point. But, it looks like that's going to happen pretty soon here. But, I think there's so much interest in this area, because this is really is much broader than a single application, right? I mean, yeah, you can go out and you can invest in some great sales companies, or, you know, some great open source application companies. But, you know, containerization and dockerization, right? It's really a c-chain, and it's impacting infrastructure, and it's impacting apps. It's impacting networking and storage, and also the other traditional areas, but I think in a really exciting way. >> Yeah, can you speak to the culture of Docker? I remember that first show in 2014, 42 employees. And, now you've got a little over 300. What is, you know, the prototype? What do you look for in a docker, an employee there, you know, what do you see this company being when you're a 1,000 employees? >> That's a really good question? >> How do you motivate them? What is the vision that they're all ... >> Well something like this. This is incredibly motivating. And, I honestly, um, for people at Docker, we look for all different types, sort of say, hey, we kind of like people who are type A personalities, and type B bodies, you know? (laughing) We're really excited, but are able to, you know, run at sprint pace for a marathon. Um, but honestly the things that keep us really, really motivated is, I say, if you're ever feeling down at Docker, go talk to users, go talk to customers, and that will get you excited. I spoke this morning about, ah, TGN, which is this non-profit genomics company. The fact that Docker has enabled them to sequence individual pages of genomes, so much faster, and diagnose them, and cure them faster. You know, you heard the story of the young girl who spent the first 12 years of her life in a wheel chair, barely able to talk. And, now because of things that Docker helped enable, she's out, she's living life like a typical teenager. Wants to become a genomics scientist when she grows up. Going to main stream school. I mean that, that's motivating. And, that helps to deal with the normal trough of oh, okay the code didn't work, we missed the ship date, whatever the case may be. >> Yeah, yeah, you didn't help advertising clicks. You know, you're helping to improve lives. And to that, I love that the show here, you've got some charitable events, that you're contributing to. Are there activities you guys are doing at corporate to help to drive, kind of, civic engagement? >> Um, you know, we do, but what we found is the best is when it comes from, from inside our employee base. Of course, our employee base would really love nothing more than going out, and talking to users, and to some extent we do have a lot of charitable things that we do. It's really exciting to have, 14 and 13 year olds who are using your technology. I mean, who would ever thought? I spent my entire life trying to have something that my kids would think is cool, and actually now, they think Docker is. >> How does it tie in with education? Are you guys helping to, you know, the next generation of active people? >> Absolutely, Docker is actually being used very broadly in computer science courses. Just because, that's basically how teachers want students to submit their, submit their projects to them, submit within the Docker container, right? Of course, we're thrilled that they're learning how to use Docker. It also means that students, they don't need to worry about making sure the student's laptops are set up correctly. They can focus on writing great code. So, yeah, we engage in education. We're doing some educational work with people in San Francisco. Just because that's our home base. And, we're really happy to support you know, three, actually four wonderful charities that are here at DockerCon today. You know, some servicing, LGBT youth, we've got one in the genomics space. Uh, one focused on teaching coding. Uh, and that just kind of ... That really helps to stay motivated. To stay motivated. >> It's a shame that you're not having any fun. >> You know, I'm having a ton of fun. I'm exhausted. I'll probably collapse in a corner. You know, come Friday. >> And as you said, your second favorite week of the year is this week, right? >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Alright Ben, I want to give you the final word, you know, we've got another day, I'm sure you've got a ton of stuff in the announcements tomorrow. We're going to have Solomon on right after the key note tomorrow, but when people leave Austin, what do you want them to know about, you know, the Docker community and Docker the company? >> You know, I'd say that, you know, Docker is here, Docker is now, Docker is for old and for new, for on premise, and for cloud, for Lenix and for Windows. Docker is here for you, and however you want to use us, we're going to help you do amazing things faster. >> Alright, I think that's wonderful Cube gem to end this on, Ben Golub, CEO of Docker, always a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on the show. We are thrilled to be able to be here to cover it. >> Okay. >> And we'll back with one more guest here, on our day one of two days of live coverage, you're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Austen, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker, in support from its ecosystem partners. >> And we're back. Hi I'm Stu Miniman joined by Jim Kobielus and this is theCUBE, worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Happy to have on the program, Scott McCarty, who is technical product marketing for containers with Red Hat, thanks so much for joining us! >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright so, obviously this is the big container show, You know, Red Hat, I saw when you talk about the number of contributors, you're one of the top contributors there, but first tell us a little bit about your role at Red Hat, how long you've been there, some of your passions, what do you work on? >> Yeah for sure. So I've been at Red Hat six years and I started actually as a solutions architect, six-ish years ago, came from a startup before that, and so been in the operations space for a long time, did a lot of programming, background in anthropology computer science. Yeah. >> You're dating yourself, you call it programming >> I know, I know! >> Because it's coding now! >> I know, I know! (laughs) >> I'm like, yeah, I used to program but, uh, what's this, this coding stuff. >> I am dating myself! >> Did you say anthropology? >> I did. >> Well we've got to connect it with Red Hat at some point in our interview now. >> It matters in the culture of things. >> James: Okay, yeah. >> You know, culture is important. (laughing) So did you know, a very wide swath of our portfolio I understand from being a solutions architect and then about two years ago moved into, well when Docker first started off, you know, got into containers and got pretty heavy and that, and was excited about it, and then moved into just doing strictly technical product marketing for only containers. You know, for focusing on containers. >> Okay, so talk to us about how containers fits into the Red Hat portfolio. >> So containers is really something that touches every part of our portfolio, because whether at the lower levels of like the Linux layers you know that's the actual nuts and bolts of, you know, what builds the containers and what the containers really are. But then at the other end of the stack, if you look at our storage and our middleware, containerizing those applications and then figuring out how to package them in a cloud-native way and making them work in a cloud-native way, so that they can operate inside of something like OpenShift, there's a lot of work to be done there. So there's a wide swath of tech across our entire portfolio of work around containers going on. >> Yeah, in the keynote this morning I like there's the maturation of the use cases because it sounds a lot like, you know, remember of the early days of Linux, or the early days of virtualization, once again they've put together a load of use cases and are like, "Oh, we're running applications," >> Scott: Yes. >> In a wide variety of applications in containers, so what are your customers seeing, you know, any kind of cool use cases or things that people are doing and anything new that they're doing that they couldn't do before? >> Well, so, I'll give you a little take on that, so even for the last two years that I've been going out all over the world to talk to customers, I've noticed that there's a little bit of a disconnect between the industry and kind of only focusing on the app dev side of things. I think today, kind of hearing Soloman talk about some of the more traditional use cases, traditional or non-cloud native or, we don't like to say the word legacy but people say it. >> Stu: Kind of wrapping-- >> I would argue those have been a huge portion of what people are experimenting with and playing with, but we don't talk about them. Also I think there's a little bit of a notion of this mode one, mode two kind of mentality, but that limits the way we think about it into only production workloads. So I have some really funny use cases. So I'll give you some examples, network scanning. So, like, there are some vendors that provide network scanning software and I was a couple of months back up in Canada talking to ATTO Co., and they mentioned they they were actually putting a commercial network scanning package in containers because when you think about, you see a production oracle database and, you know, you talk to the oracle DBA, and you say, "Hey I'm going to install "this giant network scanning package on your server." And they're like, "No. You're not doing that." (laughing) So a container makes it very easy to just bring that application down, do this network scanning, troubleshoot something and then delete it, it's gone. That's just a tools use case, right? But it's something that people have been doing for a long time but nobody is really talking about it. Another one is even affecting business more transformationally. So if you think about the way startups hire people, this happened to a friend of mine that's a CTO at a startup. They're interviewing a developer, it's very common to send them home with a homework program, you know? And so they send them home with the Ruby on Rails program, and he comes back with a GitHub Repo that has like a database schema file for Postgres and a working Ruby on Rails application. And there are two hiring managers. The one hiring manager says, "Okay I'm going to," And I'm sorry, also he says, "By the way, I have a Docker Repo, "you can go out and pull it down if you want, "just run my program and see if it works." The one hiring manager decides to try to rebuild it from scratch, takes about two hours messing around trying to get the database schema to work because he used the newer version of Postgres than she had on her laptop, you can imagine the dependency, you know, chaos that is. The other hiring manager literally just said, "Okay, just Docker run this thing." And then, kind of ran the container and looked at the code. The one spent two hours, you know, getting it up on her own, the other one spent five minutes. And so now if I can give you back the most valuable people in your organization, these very, very technical architects that are doing hiring decisions and trying to evaluate really critical core developers for your startup, if I can give you back two hours, and if you have to interview 10 of those, that's 20 hours of your time, that's transformational, that's really digital transformation, essentially, but for a startup, you know. Like, we don't want to have to spend all this analog time doing that. In addition to the traditional applications like databases and even, you know, typical web servers, all of those things, but not just mode two or cloud native, but also just traditional workloads. And we've been seeing that for a long time, I mean, this is similar to the virtualization journey, it's like you said, everyone said it was impossible and even two years ago was saying, "Wait a minute, just wait for this, it'll happen," and we're seeing it happen. >> Yeah. Anything particular? You know, we've made a lot of progress, but we're still working on storage, networking seems to be a little bit more mature than storage you know, what are you guys helping to work on at Red Hat and what do you want to see going forward that we come here a year from now we're going to say, "Oh, cool, we knocked down this barrier, or we're doing something even better." >> So one of the things I'm excited about is kind of if you look at the integration points between cloud infrastructure software like OpenStack and even the cloud providers, and then something like our OpenShift solution or Kubernetes, if you look at the storage and the network interactions, today the networking is pretty mature but the interaction is pretty static, so if you provision OpenStack, you know, say you have an OpenStack environment, you want to run OpenShift on top of it, you would go pre-provision kind of a VLAN, you know a subnet for it, and then you would- we rebuild, actually, key templates to deploy OpenShift inside of it, within that subnet. In the future we're investing in Courier and you know, a year from now I'd like to see some really dynamic interactions happening between OpenShift and OpenStack. I'd like to see an administer say, "Oh, I need to provision a new project "and that project needs its own network isolation." When that happens, OpenShift goes and talks to OpenStack, provisions a subnet that's encrypted with OVS, and actually it already is kind of set up, comes back, says, "Okay cool," and then can provision a project inside that. On the storage side we've actually already got that going, So we have what's called dynamic provisioning, so if you need storage inside of OpenShift and you have a persistent volume claim that needs access to storage, we actually have something called a dynamic provisionary that will actually go create that person's environment and go to talk the the storage and carve off a LUN of exactly the size you want or a NFS share of the exact size that you want. So, so, I'd like to see more and more of that dynamic provisioning happening between the infrastructure in a container environment. >> Is that as capable, uh, should we build into Kubernetes or totally independent of that? You know what I mean-- >> So the current project is kind of neutral but it would be, kind of, think of it as almost like an interface that Kubernetes will be able to use as an interface to all the networking providers. >> James: Right. >> So it's kind of a neutral, third-party thing. Really it could be used by other things other than Kubernetes. >> I want to get your take on project Moby, that was a real interesting announcement today, to what extent, would Red Hat consider possibly using that as a tool to build custom container applications for your own product family? >> Probably the most interesting thing I found about the announcement was kind of a validation of, uh, you know already a kind of strategy that we had around Project Atomic. And if you look at Origin and Project Atomic and Fedora, you know, they mention Fedora, that model. >> James: Yeah, absolutely. >> I think it's a good model, and you'll appreciate that we appreciate it. I think that, you know, there's some validation also around the idea of an immutable host, and having control over the host and honestly I think it kind of validates that the Linux itself is not a commodity, there is something actually very technical there and you do need to actually build a dry features in that kernel to actually support the containers, because I think they made the kernel hot again, you know, in a lot of ways. So I think it's validation of that and I think that's exciting. >> At the beginning we talked about culture a little bit, you know, we've interview Jim Whitehurst, so you know, I've read his book, >> Scott: Yeah. >> You know, the open organization, >> James: The anthropology. (laughs) >> You know, when you come to a show like this where, I mean, today we talked about the developer, we talked lots about open-source and, right, you know there's Linux Kit, there's the Moby Project, you know, all these different things out in open-source, what's your take on this ecosystem and what's going on in the industry? >> I think ecosystems are harder to build than what people first think. I don't think you can just, so if you look at certain, you know if I were to analyze the way open source works, you know there sot of open-core models which are like, "Let's give enough away to get free marketing." Then there's kind of open-source models where we give away all the code but we don't really have a community, we don't really take patches, we just put it out there, use it however you want, that's fine. And then I think there's truly community-driven open-source which is what Red Hat really tries to focus on. So if you're able to get Fedora, it's truly a community. I think building those and maintaining those takes a lot of nurturing and a lot of care and a lot of love and feeding. And I also think it takes a lot of discipline around allowing these best-of-breed ideas to kind of happen the way they're going to happen and then also fail if they don't work. And so that can be tough, you know. If you look at the model of a lot of startups, it's more kind of like unilaterally make decisions and then kind of release it and then if it sticks, and it's fail-fast. The community-driven model is a lot harder to handle because consensus is harder to build and so you've seen Jim talk about this, I mean one of the dangers in an open organization of our size is consensus, finding consensus and not going towards a completely consensus-driven decision model. But that's hard because you have to satisfy everybody in the community and make sure everybody's getting something out and everybody's putting something in. And so it's tough. >> It's funny, I remember in OpenStack for a couple of years, it's like, "Do we need, you know, the fanatical dictator "of this ecosystem?" Red Hat, obviously is not, you know, a fanatical dictator of its community. >> You can't win. Do you think Docker has a fanatical dictator of their community? (laughter) >> I, I, I'm sure the-- >> Or is the person a visionary, I mean, you know they'll put the positive euphemism on it. >> Yeah, yeah. Or the joking word in the community is the benevolent dictator. >> Yeah. >> The benevolent dictator for life, I think some of the communities work that way. >> Yeah. >> I think if you look at Python, you look at Linux, you know, it works that way. But if you've all got bigger projects, and I don't want to date myself, but you think about KDE and Gnome, and some of those, there's no benevolent dictator, they're so big and so wide-reaching again. Such, you know, wide-use case differences between what people do with them, but I think it's hard to have that. There are visionaries, you know, within the group. And even that's true in the kernel, I mean if you look at what's happened, you know, Linus has other generals essentially that kind of, I mean it's become a very big community, a very boisterous community. I think that that takes again, though, a lot of discipline and maintenance to make that happen and keep that alive. >> Alright, Scott, to take us on home, why don't you give us a little view as to what Red Hat has going on this week, of course you guys have your big show Red Hat Summit coming up in a couple of weeks, we'll have theCUBE there, I'm excited to be there, also, but you know, talk a little bit about this week and what you guys are doing. >> So this week, you know, we're excited because we have kind of a bunch of three-five You know, I don't know if you guys, have you guys heard about Atomic Image? We released Atomic Image? >> So it was not discussed in Brian's interview this morning, so. >> Okay! >> We would love to hear a little bit about it. >> So Atomic Image, we've kind of looked at some of the use cases around how people are consuming containers and I've blogged on about this and talked and honestly it's pretty deep technically when you kind of get into it. It's about having, you know, Soloman talked about it today, you know, image size matters, and there is definitely a hunger for smaller images, you don't want to have stuff that you don't want. But that is also a very fine-line balance. So the challenge being that the typical way that enterprises operate is that they have a core build where they will add all the pieces that core build that they think should be everywhere, right? Because you don't, like, say you need a fundamental core library like glibc, you wouldn't add that to all of the different applications, you would add it once and then inherit it in all the, so it's kind of the dry model, do not repeat yourself, right? So when you get into this dry model you got to balance the size of that base image versus, you know and it's flexibility versus conciseness, and you know, how concise it is. Atomic Image, though, is meant for, we essentially released a very minimal image that matters for those very concise applications, so if you look at like a C binary that's very small, maybe all it needs is DNS resolutions, some other services from the OS from the userspace, it doesn't need much, but it's a real small binary, it wants a really small image to live on. So we released something called Atomic Image really targeting those use cases-- >> I don't know if I remember if Atomic is launched, so it sounds a lot like what Docker announced with the Linux Kit today, too. >> So, it's, flip-side of it-- >> Maybe you could compare contrast a little bit. >> Yeah so, so I would compare Linux Kit to Atomic Coast, which we've had for a long time. >> Stu: Okay. >> Which is the Kernel and systemd and kind of what runs the containers, right? But now we've released a different userspace setup that's smaller-- >> Stu: Oh I got that, okay. >> For, to run on top of, you know. >> So like an agile minimum viable product, this is a minimum viable container >> Yes. >> For a particular function. >> Yeah exactly, like BusyBox or some of the smaller images that you want to play with. >> And Scott, do you guys have their website or some documentation that you recommend people starting with on your sites? Yeah absolutely, I swear, I think Project Atomic's a great place to start. >> Stu: And that's in the blogs, I'm assuming, right? >> It is, if you blog for Atomic Image, too, you'll find a REL Blog entry, so REL Blog's a good place to kind of find some of that stuff, so relblog.redhat.com And then also if, if you look on just redhat.com. And also out container catalog is a good place to actually go get started with that. So if you go to access.redhat.com/containers. >> James: We'll get to that. >> Scott McCardy, it's great catching up with you. Next time we have you on we got to get the story behind "fatherlinux" as your-- >> Yes! (laughs) >> Alright, but we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017, thank you for watching theCUBE.