(upbeat music) >> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're here in Palo Alto, California at the CUBE studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. For a special CUBE conversation, a preview of the upcoming KubeCon, Cloud Native Con in San Diego. Where theCUBE will be there, as well as a bunch of other folks. The New Stack will be there, a lot of other media producers, as well as the big conference. KubeCon, in it's fourth or fifth year, depending on which year you count. Its a super exciting conference, this is where the Kubernetes and the Cloud Native communities come together to set the agenda to talk about all the great things that are going on in the industry and how it's changing tech for good. We're here with Vicki Cheung, who is the Co-Chair and also Software Engineer Manager at Lyft. Vicki great to see you, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm so proud of KubeCon and the community because when we were there, in the early days, when it was kind of forming and created. There was a big vision that it would play a critical role. A lot of people haven't really seen how big it's become. And it's really become so important that the big companies are now moving towards Open Source, the CNC has been very successful. Both on getting vendors in and end user projects. You're setting the agenda. You're setting the table for this year's KubeCon. >> Yeah. >> Tell us what's going on. >> Yeah, I think we're seeing the maturity of the community coming together. It's sort of continuing on this trend where, as you said, the adoption is growing exponentially. I think, that two years ago if you surveyed the room and asked people, "who is using Kubernetes and Docker in production, you'd maybe get, like, a hand. I think you're seeing this thing where, this trend, where this year, I think, if you surveyed the room, it would be like maybe half the room were raising their hands. >> And the acceleration is interesting. You're seeing in, I mean, huge acceleration of the adoption of Kubernetes and other projects. And I think what's interesting to me, and I think commentary that we've been reporting on is that Kubernetes can be that unifying point. And you're seeing this, de facto standard emerging and a lot of people talking about that de facto. And that has accelerated the Production Use Cases. So, the End User Projects are increasing. Is that going to be a focus or main focus of this year's KubeCon? >> Oh yeah, definitely. I think we're seeing, maybe even last year, we've had a lot of end user talks from, you know, early adopters start ups, like tech giants. But this year we're seeing a lot more enterprise use cases. And that's driving a lot of content as well. So, I think when it comes enterprise use cases, we're seeing a lot of talks around security and governance. We're seeing a lot of developer productivity talks, and we're also seeing a lot more focus on how to scale operations. >> So, take me through the focus this year. Let's get this out on the table, because this is a big event. What can people expect this year, when you guys sat in the room, with the teams, and said, "Okay, here's going to be the Con and agenda, "we have a form of that's not broken, let's not fix, what's not broken, so the format's good." What was the focus, what was this year's focus. What's going to be the focus of this year's KubeCon? >> Yeah, I think Bryan and I, when we sit together, we have all the tracks that we've been using, for the last couple of years. And generally we, sort of stick to them, because they're pretty good. But the way we, I think the interesting thing is, we see over the years how the distribution across the tracks have changed. So, for example, I think this year, operations is a super big track, and it's very competitive to get into. And that's because we're seeing a lot more adoption at scale, and different Use cases, different types of companies and production. So, I think that track have been a main focus. And also, I think customizing Kubernetes is another one, as people's use cases got more sophisticated. And in the serve use case track, I think we see a lot more enterprise, like even banks adopting Kubernetes. >> So, essentially the same game as before, but weighting them differently based on adoption? >> Exactly, I think it's a shift, like earlier it would be maybe more like earlier adopter and serve experimental use cases, and now it's like, people are actually going into production now. So, the shift has been into like, how do we get this running reliably, at scale. So, that's what we're seeing. >> In terms of the industry, if you look back, and again you guys went public at Lyft, and you guys are growing, and you guys have a great open source product with Envoy, I'm sure you guys are going to do the Day Zero thing again this year, last year was a big success. Is there any projects that you see coming out of the woodwork that are going to evolve up? And what can people expect in terms of project growth or emerging projects. Is there any indication, from your standpoint? What's going to come out of the community? >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of projects that are growing, like Helm continues to grow. I think one thing that I'm seeing, from this year's content is there's a lot of focus on, OPA. Like I said, the security is sort of a growing focus. And OPA is certainly one of the things I think people should expect at this year's conference. Another area that I'm personally very interested in, and I see, I'm happy to see it popping up more this year, is developer experience and developer productivity. As we're, even just personally witnessing at Lyft, adopting Cloud Native Architecture, microservices and Kubernetes, comes with a lot of benefits, but also a lot of new challenges into how people should develop in this ecosystem. So, there are projects like Telepresence and Tilt that are coming up more. And there's a few talks around that, in application and development as well. >> How about the developer's side? What's the general sentiment in the community these days? If you had to kind of, put a parameter out there, what's the general vibe in the community, from a developer's stand point around Cloud Native and Kubernetes? >> I think there's, I think it depends on who you ask. Generally, you know, people are very very excited to be sort of moving in this direction. And I think it allows people to be a lot more flexible in how they develop their applications. But I also think that there's a lot of open questions, that we still have to answer. And this is where, I guess some of these new projects come into help fill the gap. >> Well first of all, you guys have, always have a great conference, theCUBE will be there, as well media producer will be a lot on digital. So, folks not going to the event, they should go and see the face-to-face. I want to get the take on some of the submissions. You guys have an interesting dynamic and CNCF and KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, you have a ton of end user projects, A lot of end user focus, obviously it's an end user focused show. But you also have a lot of vendors, suppliers that are also in the community. So, you have an interesting balance going on. Talk about some of the numbers in terms of submissions, because I know, everyone's got submissions, not everyone gets accepted, like the operations you mentioned is a hot track. What's some of the numbers? Can you share any, kind of statistics around number of submissions versus acceptance? >> Yeah, I think typically CNCF will publish some of the numbers, in a blog post. So, I don't know all the numbers off the top of my head. But for example, in operations, I think the acceptance rate was maybe less than 10%. I think, it wasn't that competitive, maybe two years ago, but certainly as everyone moves to deploying Kubernetes on their own, that's sort of a hot topic. >> What's the relationship in the community, with the big vendors? Obviously you see, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, are big players in there, and they're investing heavily in Kubernetes. And VMware, as well, is also investing. Is that good, bad, is it just balancing? What's the communities view on the participation of the big guys? >> Yeah, I think it's actually been really great to the community and I personally would not have expected Microsoft, ADBS to be as active in the community as they are now, if you asked me five years ago. So, I think it's this interesting thing that Kubernetes and CNCF hasn't managed to do, is instead of having the tech giants having to suck out the energy and the technology into their private ecosystem. It's been the other way around. Where Microsoft and ADBS and Google have been contributing a lot of their integrations and other tooling and projects that they've built on top of the projects in CNCF. And just enriching the community. >> So, you're saying that they've been pushing more towards open source, not pulling out of it? >> Yeah. I think that's, obviously I'm super happy to see that. But I think that was not obvious at all from the beginning. >> Yeah, it's super exciting, you know we've been tracking the business model's evolution. And open source is more powerful than ever before now. And it's growing so fast and changing. Let's talk about the Enterprises now, because I think you're seeing adoption on the classic IT Enterprise moving in. We've interviewed many CSO's, CIO's and practitioners, they all have the same kind of reaction, "Oh my God, this is so good for our business, "Kubernetes what Containers are doing, "will allow us to manage the life cycle of our applications. "The same time bringing Cloud Native, "without a lot of disruption." What's your reaction to that, are you guys seeing that same dynamic? And if so, what is some of the use cases of Enterprises, within KubeCon? >> Yeah, I think one thing is, the earlier pitch is the, of course allows you to have that flexibility to move from your data center to Hybrid Cloud, and maybe to different cloud vendors. So, I think that's super appealing. But another thing that we're seeing this year is, as people adopted at scale they're also seeing a lot of cost savings from adopting Kubernetes, just because it allows them to be a lot more flexible in how they deploy things. I think that, in general as you move to serve a community standard, an Open Source Platform, it does help your developers a lot, because now they don't need to build their own in-house thing, which is, for example, what Lyft had before Kubernetes. So, I think it's generally a productivity win. >> So, on Envoy real quick, while I got you here. Lyft has been involved in donating that project and driving it last year, one of the most notable news, at least from out observation was, that the Envoy did that event the day before. And it was really popular. >> Yeah >> Is it going to happen again? What's some of the views on that? >> Yeah, so EnvoyCon is happening again this year, right before Kubernetes. I think it's even more popular than last year. So, there's going to be a lot of talks around, running Envoy at scale, and also on top of Kubernetes. As people sort of integrate the two technologies more. >> Okay, so I got to ask you the personal observations, you can take your Co-Chair hat off and put your KubeCon community hat on. What dark horses are out there, that you think may surprise people this year? What do you think might happen? Because there is always something that goes on, that's just a surprise, a dark horse, if you will, comes out of the woodwork, what do you think might happen? >> Well, I think there's of course going to be a few new Open Source projects that are launched there. And I also think there will be a lot of, maybe more than usual, interesting people that people can meet at the conference. >> I heard there's a rumor that the original gangsters, or the OG's or the original members, the seven original members are going to be there. >> Yeah, I don't-- >> Confirm or deny? >> I don't know if I can confirm or deny, but-- >> Okay, I think that's a yes, possibly. We'll be tracking that, okay, final question for you. What do you think will be the most important story for people to pay attention to this year? What do you think is going to be, evolving out on the stage? Out on the tracks, out on digital? What do you expect to see this year? What is some of the top stories and top notable points that you think is going to happen this year? >> Yeah, I think one thing that maybe, for me, and for a lot of people is this message that Kubernetes is ready. I think it's been sort of building up in this hype for the last few years. And we've seen adoption, but I think this is truly the year that I see a lot of Enterprise end user cases and I can really say that Kubernetes is ready. >> So the new criteria is proof points? Scale, operationally seeing some operations, real proof points, customer adoption, enterprise and hyperscalers? >> Yeah. >> All right, Vicki thanks for coming in and sharing this preview on KubeCon, Cloud Native Con. It's theCUBE covering the KubeCon, Cloud Native Con preview with Vicki Co-Chair, who set the agenda with her fellow Co-Chair Bryan Liles, as well. Great to have her on and share upcoming conversation around KubeCon. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three here, theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Justin Warren here to break down the action. Justin Warren, as you know, is Guest Analyst for us at many events, Chief Analyst at PivotNine, coming all back over here again, to break it down. So we're going to dissect what's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This is, some say, me, the last stand to stop Amazon. Justin, good to see you. >> Good to see you as well, man. Stu, my first question is, as the show winds down, day three, a lot of people have left, all the big execs are gone, it's kind of last day, people coming together, party was last night, so we kind of see all the action, we kind of fished this pond dry, in theCUBE here, the last couple of days. The themes are starting to emerge. What are you seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, John, 8,000 people, this is, you know, geeks that are really excited, and I mean that in the best of ways, of course. There's actually, there were people here before the show started, doing lightning talks and full day sessions. Tomorrow, there's an operative session that another 250 or 300 people will be doing Friday, so, you know, and people want to just suck the marrow out of the bone that is everything going on here, just get every ounce of knowledge here, and they are deep into this session, so, this is a great community. The question I want to ask you guys is you were at Amazon re:Invent two weeks ago. We've watched that show. I want the compare and contrast of this ecosystem and show, not just compare it to like, say, open stack, which we've been teasing apart all week, and I think there are some things we need to worry about, but a lot of good differences. But compare against the big one in the room, which is Amazon, and a big difference is Amazon is here, and they have a seat at the table, because they have to, and customers will force them there, but you know, should this worry Amazon, and how does this ecosystem compare with the Amazon ecosystem. The big thing for me is, I understand how people make money in the ecosystem of Amazon. I'm still trying to figure that out here. >> Yeah, eh, it is a different ecosystem. It does have a bit of a vibe of it could be the new re:Invent. We've had conversations over the last couple of days about-- >> Or is this the independent cloud, >> Exactly. >> You know, open ecosystem. >> It is the independent show that we've been waiting for, that we've wanted since COMDEX and Interop kind of went away, and it's all been vendor shows, and now we have an independent show where all the vendors can come and have kind of a neutral meeting place, and we can all gather together and have some common ground, which is like, that's what Kubernetes is. I've been saying over the last couple of days, Kubernetes is like the ethernet of cloud, so it's something which is an agreed standard and we can all collaborate on, and then, you never bet against ethernet. So know you can build all these other things on top of that platform, yeah. >> Just a quick note on that, right, that's Interop, and networking was at the core of that. It was basically everybody, oh, it's the chance of if we give true interoperability, maybe we can do multi-vendor and it won't all be Cisco, who dominated that market. Amazon's the same. >> Stu, this is to me, ethernet's a great example. I say TCPIP as well. Both are enabling technologies that are standardized, or actually started as de facto standards. They weren't necessarily bona fide standards. They emerged when people rallied around them. Those de facto standards, emerge and become a catalyst point for people to build on top of and around. Remember, there's still a lower level below the stack on ethernet. So you had, you know, physical data link layer in the OSI model, the grandfather of all stacks. That really changed, I think, 20 years of growth and innovation. I think Kubernetes is, exactly right, Justin, it's exactly your point. I see that as well, that it's not so much Kubernetes is going to be the be all end all. It's what it enables, and I think the innovations on top of Kubernetes, and underneath Kubernetes, take the holy trinity, I've been saying this on theCUBE now for the past year, the holy trinity of infrastructure and IT is storage compute networking, and those things are now being repurposed in a way that is highly scalable, dynamic, and resourceful for a lot of things. AI is a great example, everyone talks about AI, but storage policy, the knobs in Kubernetes can manage, and Google saying the guys of Kubernetes. That's one of the most underutilized aspects of Kubernetes, is the networking guys managing the knobs from below, and then app guys with servers messing maybe on the top. This is just an absolute growth engine, and the comparison to Amazon is similar, because Andy Jassy talks about builders, the right tool for the job. This is essentially the same mantra. I mean, this is tools, platforms. >> It's very similar, but with one very important difference, and around the money side of things. You don't have this massive behemoth which is going to come in, and one year you're on the keynote, and the next year we just announced a product, which completely killed your business. It's open source. That's not really going to happen. So you've got that common core of things, where there's no real competitive advantage on this stuff. So that's, you know, Linux, where's the competitive advantage on a kernel? There isn't one. So open source makes great sense for that kind of core of things that you then build upon, and then all the money is in all the innovation, all the value add that goes on top of that, and that makes a huge amount of sense to have an open source show for that. >> And I think, Stu, one of the things that we always talk about, networking in cloud, I think the concept of cloud is going to be old hat. You heard it here first on theCUBE. Because cloud is Amazon, cloud is a set of resources. When we start thinking about IoT at the edge, when you talk about moving compute to the edge, you're going to start to see mesh networks, peer to peer, and add a new kind of platform configurations that isn't necessarily cloud. It's a new thing. It's a platform, open platform, and there's going to be some incentives that are going to be designed for startups, that's economically beneficial to the new kinds of things, versus the economic incentives that Amazon might not have, to do things. So I think we're going to see emergence of new stuff. I would still say that cloud is a state of mind, it's not a location. And we here, it's CloudNativeCon. It's not just KubeCon. It's about doing things in a cloud native way, and that, like you say, it doesn't matter where it is or how it communicates together, but it's the way you operate it, it's the way it actually works in practice. It's not so much of, oh, we're going to build it here and we're going to put it in that cloud, or that cloud, or that cloud. >> And I think we've had some real clarity as to what that future of multi cloud looks like, 'cause it's not one massive cloud everywhere, it's not, oh, my applications spanning all over the place. It's we're working to solve that really tough problem of distributed architectures, and giving us ways that I shouldn't have to think about where I am spinning that up, or if I need to change vendor, not necessarily portability, you still do have some lock in, because Kubernetes is not the full stack, it's a piece of the overall platform, and while there's 75 different versions here that are all compliant, I should be able to move between them, but the devil's in the details, and there's lots of stuff that goes on top. >> Let's talk about multi cloud for a second. 'Cause you mentioned COMDEX, you talked about ethernet. At that time, during those big revolutions, the word multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-vendor was like the basis of COMDEX. We all got to play together. Multi-vendor meant choice. Today, multi cloud is just a modern version of multi-vendor. >> Exactly, it's multi-vendor, and that's what enterprises want. Enterprises are a bit wary now. We hear lots of conversation about lock in, and that comes up a lot, and it's a real thing. Enterprises are concerned, they don't want to bet on one company, and then find out that actually, it's technology, it changes, things need to be moved around. We don't want to wake up in five, six years, and then suddenly find, oh my god, I can't change anything because I'm locked into this one vendor. >> So, Justin, they say they want multi-vendor. When it came to networking, I spent years working on interoperability, and plug tests, and all these things, and at the end of the day, it was way better to get my standards plus with a single vendor than it was to try to loop them together, and then, oh, when I changed something, so hopefully the difference here is actually, we have loosely coupled services, we have APIs, so can we actually do multi-vendor, multi-cloud that doesn't stress out my team, and have, every time I want to make a change, or they make a change, it moves. The new cloud world should be, things change, you know, it changes upstream, and downstream, I get to use them. So, once again, we talk about the shiny nirvana of, oh, you know, it's serverless, and the old trinity of computer storage. I don't even need to worry about that, 'cause it'll just work, but wait, if something goes wrong, I've been talking to a bunch of vendors here, that actually, how do I get observability, and manageability, to be able to drill down, because things could still go wrong. >> Well, you heard Bloomberg, we had an end user come on, it's a very interesting point, and Dan Khan, from the executive director, well, Bloomberg's kind of a different case, but look at what Bloomberg does. The guy said to us, "I actually don't want to buy "these products and services. "I just want to pay them money "to be available to support me "when I need support." 'Cause Bloomberg has fully integrated all their support internally. I think that's a trend that we're going to see in the enterprise, where CIOs start building teams, real software chops. It might not be as big as Bloomberg, but the notion of, we're going to run our own stuff. We'll use management services where appropriate, but we're going to have a core software build strategy, and I can't wait. An SLA of four hour response time. I need like, minutes. >> And that's how, I think, where we don't have the answers yet. There are still a lot of questions that enterprises are trying to work out about how do I actually do that. So you mentioned Bloomberg, and I interviewed them a few months ago, wrote something in Forbes about them. They are a special case in that they have chosen that we're going to invest in this technology so that we have people on staff, in our company, who understand Kubernetes. Now, that's not a choice that every enterprise is going to make, but they decided that actually, this technology, this software is so important to our business, to where we get all the value for our business that we need to invest in that technology. And I think a lot of enterprises are realizing that, actually, outsourcing everything to one vendor, and then giving all of your innovation engine to someone else, and they're realizing that was a mistake. Now, they're trying to figure out, okay, what do we bring in house, what do we do ourselves, what do we get vendors to do, which technologies do we use for what particular value creation, and that complexity, that decision making process, that's what we haven't quite worked out yet, and that's where I think there's a lot of value in the ecosystem, with service providers who can provide advice on here is how you should do it, based on what you need to do. >> That's a great point. Stu, I want you to comment on that. Let's refine this for a second, 'cause the people who actually spend the money, or the people re-imagining IT infrastructure, IT applications. The CIO, I've interviewed the VP of Advanced Technology at Proctor and Gamble, and he told me, when he came in, he came from Coca Cola, he's been an old IT guy, he says, look, we outsourced everything to the point where we're anemic. We got a couple of storage guys, they're pushing buttons, they're jumping on, calling the vendors, they outsource everything. He says they had no ability to create a competitive advantage for the business, and what they moved quickly to was to bring talent in to be builders, to be in house. So now you have that trend happening in the modern CIO, CXO kind of roles. Now you have to say, okay, I got teams here. How do I get the investments deployed, how do I go to this ecosystem here with all these tools, all these capabilities, how do I invest, how do I build out. >> Look, I think Kelsey Hightower had a great point when we interviewed him this week. It is a huge opportunity for managed services, because like we talked about, the Amazon, or even the ecosystem, how do I keep up with all of this, and the answer is, you don't. You need to be able to have people, whether it's system integrators, or partners that are going to help that. You know, look, Amazon gets criticized for not being deeper in open source. Well, they use a lot of open source and they deliver those services, and they make it easy. Frictionless is something we talked about for many years as being the thing. The enterprise wants to be able to spend money and just go do it, because they don't have a team to pitch these. Even somebody like Bloomberg, or some of these really big companies I love, talking, you've got Apple, and Nordstrom, and some really interesting, oh, by the way, and they're all hiring. Whether or not they're actually using Kubernetes, they cannot confirm or deny, but you know, we know how that goes. >> Hold on, first, let's unpack the end user piece here, okay? Amazon is pushing 5,000 reference-able customers. Okay, it's not about the Amazon question. End users here, how many reference-able customers are here? What are they actually, Uber's here, they're hiring. They might have some Kubernetes stuff in the background. Sure, they probably do. But actually, what does the end user adoption really look like? I mean... >> It's still early, but again, a difference between this show and Amazon re:Invent. How many end customers have a booth at re:Invent? Compared to here, where we have people, end customers who are here mostly to try to hire talent. They have booths. >> Kudos to the CNCF. They've got 80 end users participating. There are a lot of users here. This is not the vendor fest that we see at some shows when they get big. I hear they're not seeking the vendors. The vendors that I talked to were happy because they are the users here, and they're excited. Before we go, John, there's a couple kinks in the armors and things we need to worry about. The two, if I look at service meshes, and I look at serverless as a huge threat. One of the things I wanted to look at coming in was I'd heard a lot of talk about Knative, and I think Knative is great, but it is not, you know, Lambda is the defacto standard, just like S3 was before. Lambda is this, and Knative has absolutely nothing to do with Lambda and does not connect with it. It is the difference between serverless and functions, and so, all the AWS functions and all the Azure functions have nothing to do with Knative. For the people that looked at OpenWhisk and all these other options, Knative seems a good way to pull, they've done a re-spin of what's happening there, and it's moving things down the line. Once again, as Kelsey said, if we look at serverless as a spectrum, which many of the hardcore serverless people will debate and argue, and be like, that's not real, serverless, well, just like we said, there is only one real cloud, and it was Amazon. We know that's not the case. It will be a spectrum, we want to meet customers where they are. So, Knative, good news, but the elephant in the room is that AWS and Azure are where all of the serverless really happens, and therefore, there is a big air gap between them. Justin, service mesh is something I know you've been looking at. Give it to us the good, bad, and the ugly. >> Service mesh is really, really early. So, we're at that part where there's a diversity of innovation going on. There's about 12, or at least 12 different companies here at the show, who are all doing something with service mesh. They're all trying to sell you a different solution. This is what happens with technology. A new technology gets created, and we have this flurry of all these startups, who are all trying different things. And this is the destructive force of capitalism. Not all of them are going to succeed, but we have to have them all out there in the market, because at the moment, it's too early to figure out, okay, well, it's definitely going to be that one. If we knew that one, then I'd be putting all of my money behind that one company today. >> Last year, Justin, all the talk was about SDO. I've heard a lot of talk about SDO, but it hasn't all been good. >> No, that's the thing. So we've had a year now, and last year was definitely, hey, SDO is like, the service mesh. Like, not so much. Envoy seems to be the common ground that people are actively using. That's what most people are building on top of. So it looks like Envoy's going to be that underlayer of everything else. But in terms of how you actually use service mesh, it's still very early, and people are trying to figure out how to do I use this quite complex technology in practice? And as people use it more, as we get more adoption, then we'll start to see that one or two of the methods and the approaches will win out over all of the others, and that's where we can expect to see, well, I have an anointed winner. That will then win out, because it's useful, because it's functional, because end users want to do it that way. >> And Envoy, by the way, had traction. They had a sold out EnvoyCon. On the first day, 350 people, Lyft is driving that, and they're just heads down, solving problems. I think that seems to be the formula for some of the successful products, where you take away all the window dressing and the hype. It comes down to who's solving what problems. >> And that's the thing with open source. You can't just throw a whole bunch of marketing dollars at it to make it succeed. If end users don't like the code, and they don't use it, then it won't work. >> John, I want you to give us the word on the open source business model. We watched in the last year, Red Hat bought CoreOS for 250 million, then they were acquired by IBM for 34 billion, pending final, and all that stuff and everything, and then, reading through the VMware, SCC filing $550 million for Heptio. You know, big, big dollars, so, is open source just getting a lot of customers, and they get acquired by the big guys? What's the take? >> I think it's interesting. First of all, Red Hat might not like what I'm about to say, but I'll just say it. I think there was a steal with CoreOS. If you look at what Heptio got for valuation, CoreOS was an absolute steal. The team was phenomenal, they were doing some amazing work. At that time of the acquisition, the debate of how to make money dominated versus just getting behind the technology, and I think CoreOS was a fantastic team, and they had the right tracking. You can see what's happening now with now part of the Red Hat. So, Red Hat got a massive lift on that, so I think, kudos to Red Hat for taking that up the table at that time. Great acquisition, I think that helped them propel, and now show that to IBM that there's real value there. Now, I think open source as a business model is interesting because it's changing, right? You now have a new generation of builders and developers coming in. Open source has to evolve, and I think the CNCF I think is a cutting edge experiment or Petri dish of how to stay true to open source principles, and still nurture and enable a downstream impact for the commercialization. I think it's an opportunity, but it's also one of their biggest challenges, because if this is COMDEX, COMDEX is an open source. It's hawking wares, right? So it's a different business model. So, this is going to be a very interesting test in the industry to see how the current open source momentum, which is looking really strong right now, how that can interplay with commercialization, because certainly, the money's there, the value's there, and if we can get these value spots identified, the white spaces for startups, and let the big guys also play as well, it's going to be a very interesting landscape, it's certainly dynamic. I don't have the answers, but my gut's telling me that a whole new level of sets of services and platforms are going to be composed around these services, and I think it's all going to be driven by open source, that's clear. How it shapes out, valuations and the talent buys, the momentum, market buy, we'll be watching, I don't know. >> Yeah, it's exciting times. We're here at the beginnings of what I hope is going to be this massive new ecosystem, and we get to watch it grow, we get to watch it change. It's a great place to be. >> All I can say, Stu, is I wish I was 25 years old again, right now, because for young entrepreneurs, and young tech folks, this is probably one of the most exciting times, because you have real computer science, and dormant computer science, now re-energized with cloud computing scale. It's just like-- >> John, they don't appreciate what they had, you know. They don't know what it was like to have a computer that wasn't actually connected to things, let alone what we had. >> I used to build my own graphics libraries, I used to walk to school in bare feet in the snow. It's so hard. It's so easy now. >> Creating ones and zeroes-- >> Where's my token ring? >> Creating ones and zeroes by banging rocks together. >> It's so easy now. You guys got it made. You have no idea. Great stuff, Stu, this is great analysis, and I think, again, KubeCon is the beginning, with Cloud Native, this is just a small signal, I think. I think there's going to be a COMDEX moment soon, unless this thing just blows up, which I don't think is going to happen. >> I mean, look, last thing, John, I want to big thank to the Linux Foundation, CNCF, for working with us. We've been neighbors in the early days, great partnership, this community. They've got a great media section. All of friends over here, that are creating a lot of con, working really hard. The amount of work that goes through, and as we had the people from CNCF talking. They've got a core team, but it's people that volunteer, and we were a community too, and all our sponsors, John. >> Yeah, thanks to the community, and again, one more final point is that, this market, Justin, as you know, we all cover it, is in a learning mode. There's a lot of education oriented stuff that people are interested in. You've got Alex Williams over at New Stack, DevOps.com, TFiR over there, everyone's up in media out there. There is a thirst for content, there's a thirst for community learning. The sessions are packed. I mean, the hallways are interesting. You see people huddling, and I overhear the conversations. They're not talking about what party to go to, they're talking about how to implement a Kubernetes cluster, so this, really people working on and off the court here, so to speak. So, it's been great coverage. So, day three, breaking it down. I'm John Furrier, Justin Warren, Stu Miniman, back with more coverage, day three, after the short break. (techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washinton it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here at KubeCon, Cloud Native. This is theCUBE's live coverage of three days of three days of wall to wall coverage. Day two, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guess is an end user, also a program chair of EnvoyCon, which is sold out. Matt Klein, software engineer with Lyft. Great to have you on again, good to see you. Thanks for spending the time. >> Thank you great to be here. >> I know you've been busy, your voice is getting hoarse. You guys had a successful EnvoyCon, sold out. Was on the front-end of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Interesting, right? This is the rising tide. What's going on? How'd that go? Why all the interest? >> It's been I continue to be blown away by the overall reaction. So we had EnvoyCon on Monday. We had, I think almost 350 people come, sold out. I think we could have had a larger room if it was available, but we didn't. Just amazing to walk around this conference and see all the cloud vendors getting behind Envoy, lots of companies building on top of Envoy, all of the end users. It just seems to be everywhere here and to have only been open source for a little over two years, I mean it's just unbelievable. >> Matt you know I think a year ago service mesh was something we were still getting the basic understanding of what it was and it definitely, there's certain interviews we've done this week, you know service mesh, you know Envoy, thing likes Istio are going to be even bigger than Kubernetes. >> Yeah, well you know I've been to the last few KubeCons and every KubeCon, I think that it can't get much bigger or more nuts, and no, no. Everyone seems to be a little bit crazier. But no, just from the community perspective, EnvoyCon was fantastic because we had mostly end user talks so it was really fun to get people together and to see all the different things they're building on top of Envoy. >> One of the things that's impressive and I think is a real notable story, and of course we talked about it a bit last time you were on, is that Lyft as an end user kind of encapsulates and epitomizes kind of the innovation building going on. A lot of people have been building a lot of cool stuff using cloud look and getting down and dirty and rolling their own. And actually creating business value, not in a classic IT by IT, just build IT, build systems >> Yep >> To build business value and then donating it in to scale up with the community is pretty notable so congratulations on that. >> Thanks. >> Now you have startups kind of acting the same way so the line between a vendor and end user is certainly changing. I mean, we were end users. Well they're all kind of end users. This is a dynamic that is, I think notable for this generation and it's real. Talk about that dynamic because I think this is a real success story and also a trend in the industry. >> You know so I think for us what's fun for me about not only building Envoy but seeing how it's evolved is really what you said is that I like solving actual problems for people, right? We can have different opinions on what the different vendors are doing, of course. There's lots of people doing different things, but for me at least working at a company like Lyft it's super fun to be able to build technology that solves specific problems that the business is actually happening. Now if something becomes successful sure we're going to see a lot of vendors come in hopefully build products that can help other folks. The way that I look at it and this has been an interesting evolution for me over the last year is I would say a year ago, people would come to me and say "Hey Matt, I've heard about Envoy I'd like to use to help solve some problems and I went to the website and I don't understand it, like it's too complicated to use. The documentation is not good enough." And I think over the last year my thinking has evolved a little bit in the sense that we've seen so many people or end users or companies build fantastic products on top of Envoy and I think one of the reasons Envoy's become so successful is that it's a building block that other people can come and add vertical value. So whether that's a more sophisticated internet company like Lyft or a vendor or a cloud vendor. I think that's what's made the community so successful is that we can build this base thing and it's amazing but then we can allow people to add vertical value. >> And you know that's an interesting dynamic of both cloud and open source. You look at Amazon, the most successful public cloud Their core building blocks was EC2 and S3 originally. Open source is about building on top of other things. Again the dynamic between open source and cloud scale is really kind of the magic. >> Well and just in terms of how we actually go through and I think fund some of these projects ends up being very interesting. Just in the sense that we have a lot of full time people working on Envoy and they're working on it actually for different reasons. We have people working on it as end users, we have people working on it because they're building vertical products but in the end everyone wins because the base technology stays technology focused. I think that has been what has been successful, is that we allow people to succeed in different ways. >> Alright, so Matt, you're at the forefront of one of the most difficult problems that we're looking at these days. It's scale, distributed systems, and edge and how that ties in. I want to get your kind of macro level viewpoint as to how we're doing in this industry? What are some of those tough challenges we've talked about? We talk about things like IoT and Edge and vehicles of course have a lot of them. >> Yeah so I mean, I think when you say scale there's two things that comes to mind. There's physical scale, and I do agree actually that we are continuing to push more compute out to the edge and in fact, I talked about this a little at EnvoyCon, but I have some very exciting projects or plans to bring Envoy actually to mobile phones and to Edge devices starting next year. I'll have more to say about that in the spring. I'm very excited about that. I do think there's a lot of opportunity to better evolve how we ingress data from the edge, how we do compute out at the edge, a bunch of other things. And I think Envoy will be at the forefront of that but when you talk about scale I still think that there's a lot of human scale involved of how we scale the number of developers that are working on all of these architectures. And I do think that Service Mesh and Kubernetes and a bunch of other stuff ultimately if we're successful it helps us grow the number of product developers that can successfully work on these systems. I still think we have a long way to go but I think that's one of those areas where I think some of these technologies help people both at physical internet scale but also at human scale. >> Well I really appreciate your work you're doing. Your contributions to the community, both on solving the problems with Envoy and also being the program chair of EnvoyCon I think is going to be great for the community. I got to ask you as you get pulled into a lot of these, I won't say political, or media kind of conversations you got to kind of be a helicopter and get above and get high level and talk to people who are discovering and learning for the first time which is part of what communities do. How do you talk about those other end users that say "Hey Matt, I'm going to reshape our company, I'm going to reshape their IT investments all based on open source and I really want to learn more about Envoy and just the benefits of Cloud Native in general. I got to go, and I'm a believer, I got to go talk to some wanna-believers or non-believers in my company and I got to make my point home?" How do they be successful? What's your advice to that? Because that's a challenge a lot of people are having. >> I totally agree My advice, first and foremost, is to start by understanding what problems are trying to be solved. And I actually think that sounds very obvious but I think that people don't do it enough because I think sometimes we come to conferences like this and we see all the amazing technology that people are building and it seems fantastic but if one tries to adopt everything that they see here without understanding the incremental steps and the things that are the problems that are being solved that can be very problematic. >> It's a new kind of technical depth. It's kind of a new way >> My advice is to start with what are the actual problems, right? And whether that be observability issues, or authentication issues, or security issues, or whatever, is to start with the problems and then work backwards and my advice is always incremental, no big bang. And try to figure out the right incremental path of adopting the smallest piece of technology that solves a particular problem and go from there. >> And build economies of scale to the mission. >> Right, and whether that means working with a vendor or working with the raw open source technology that's a personal decision of each company to figure out what their comfort level is. But that really is my advice, is start with the problem statement and then figure out the easiest and the quickest incremental path forward. >> The trends that we're seeing Stu was talking earlier, a lot of hyper-scalers here, a lot of diversity coming into the community just what's the hallway conversation amongst the people in the community around as the community grows larger? I mean open source community core persona or constituency, then you got the down-stream impact of that is IT is changing, developers are coming in. So it's not so much changing personas and target audiences of the environment. Open source is still core. That's kind of the down-stream impacts. So you're seeing a lot of people come in, IT people, new developers. How does the community look at that? What's your view on how to engage but also not alienate new people? >> Well I think ultimately we are attempting to build systems help people be successful and be more productive, right? I think the natural evolution of that is bringing some of this technology into the enterprise. We have to recognize that as the community scales the base line level of knowledge is different. I mean we all come at it with different understanding of whether it be networking or orchestration or security. And I think what I would say is that we're never going to build one technology that makes everyone happy. It is impossible. It's impossible to build a technology that satisfies both the expert user and the entry level user. So I believe that we need to build layered technologies, layered abstraction that allow people to plug in at different levels and some of them are more opinionated than others. And I think it is recognizing and supporting a community that has base level technology, has vendors adding value at different layers to help people, and really just respecting the fact that people come at it with different levels. >> I mean application assembly is really where it's going. >> Exactly, I agree >> Matt, I'm wondering if you could reflect back for us. You're the creator of Envoy, I saw you up on stage yesterday, the supportive team and the community that helped this grow. And you've reached graduation. What does that mean to you, for the team? It's different than a school graduation, this is not the end of something, you don't get a diploma out of it. >> Is there a party? >> I don't know if there was. I don't think they invited me. >> Get pictures? >> Cloud Foundation picking up the bar tab? >> I don't know, maybe. So like from a project perspective, in terms of how we go about our day to day I don't think that much changes. I think we have been operating as a mature graduated level project probably for quite some time, in terms of adoption and methodology and stuff like that. I think what graduation means for the project is it's a vote of respect from the larger industry and the community that Envoy isn't going to disappear, it's not going to become an abandoned project on GitHub if for example if Lyft stops investing in it. I think we've reached a critical mass of project success and I think what that means is that it allows folks that may be at more conservative organizations who may be a little later to adopt newer technologies to give them the confidence that says Envoy is not going disappear, that we can potentially bet some of our future on Envoy. So I think it's a vote of confidence, I don't think it changes a lot about how we operate on a day to day basis. >> Matt, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Again, congratulations. Seminal work, you guys are doing great. Lyft is really, I think, a great example of the new dynamic in open source where they're building and they're working with the community to continue to extend that. And this is what we want, that's what open source is all about. >> It is. >> Congratulations. And we got to have a graduation party for Envoy. We'll figure it out, get photos and pictures and everything else. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Cool, thank you very much. >> theCUBE coverage here live, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. More coverage after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat music)