>>Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warda. Who's the director of information technology services at the Hotchkis school, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut. Hello, Kevin? >>Hello. It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me. >>Yeah, you, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about the Hotchkis school and your role. >>Sure. The hacha school is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 K 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role is as the director of information technology services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >>Yeah. And you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens what's, what's the unique, you know, or not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you. >>I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of it, security it in general sometimes. So I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into, >>Because specifically you are potentially spread thin underfunded. You gotta, you, you got students, you got teachers. So there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >>Certainly because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center. So data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights Ferra, some of our students are under 18. So data privacy laws such as Copa apply HIPAA can apply. We have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition. So it's, it's a unique place to be. Again, we operate very much like a college would, right? We have all the trappings of a, of a private college in terms of all the operations we do. And that's what I love most about working education is that it's, it's all the industries combined in many ways. >>Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in, in drew to the conversation. So what are the, the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your, your data? >>Well, we take a defense and depth approach. So we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses. We also keep it simple. You know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching using multifactor authentication and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >>Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what, what, what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >>Yeah, I, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what, what he's doing going back to our prior conversation about zero trust, right? That defense in depth approach is beautifully aligned, right? With a zero trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and, and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right. They need to make sure that the data that they're keeping evidence right. Is secure and imutable right, because that's evidence, >>Well, Kevin paint a picture for us, if you would. So you were primarily on, Preem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and, and the kind of, I wanna get to the before and the, after wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >>Sure. Well, I came to the hatchet school about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal. So again, not a lot of funding for it in general security or infrastructure in general. So Nutanix was actually a solu, a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hodges and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system, that students would use financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SAS solutions coming in play. We had also taken some time to do some business continuity planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue. I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that. So as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud based, we didn't really need as much of the on premise compute and storage as, as we had. And it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a, a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well. And it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small it shops like ours. >>Yeah. AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor. And so you migrated off of VMware avoidance V the VTax avoidance. That's a common theme among Nu Nutanix customers. And now did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >>We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, WASA became across our, our desks. And it was such a low, low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month. And then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time. It wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network. Some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on, on the internet that they could be stored as well. >>So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast security wise. It has all the features of, of S3 compliance that works with, with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily. And then there was no egress fees. We can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing us any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs. We need to know what we're gonna spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for, for egres or, or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously. We need, we need that. We, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >>So Kevin, you, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed. Were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those, those concerns as an it practitioner? >>Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing. There's lots of companies with funny names. >>I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from and really looking into the technology, understanding that the value proposition, the ability to, to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology, in which it lays down data. So, so having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for it. It may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's, it's not cheap. It's not, you know, it's, it's reliable. And that was really our concern. So we, we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >>Yeah. Thank you for that. Drew explain the whole egres charge. We hear a lot about that. What do people need to know? >>First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, date, just like the cube. Let's be very clear about that. Second of all egres charges. So, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get every, put every list, everything okay. It's, it's part of their, their, you know, their, their process. It's part of how they make money. It's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services. We don't do that. And I think, you know, as, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond. What is the list price? In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then right. Their, their additional cost, the egres cost, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >>So you used the little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation. So I'm, here's what I'm imagining. Like I have a lot of stuff. Right. And, and I, I, I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly. I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff. That's kinda the same thing here. >>Oh, that's a great metaphor, right. That, that storage locker, right? Yeah. You know, can you imagine every time you wanna open the door to that locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >>No, no, that would be annoying. >>Or, or every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard. You have to pay a door opening fee. Right. And then if you wanna look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay and it's ridiculous. Yeah. It's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker. You've already paid the annual fee probably cuz that they gave you a discount on that. So why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what wasabi does. And I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody >>Else. Okay, good. That's helpful. It helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin. I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in, in, in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and, and ransomware protection? For example? >>Yes. Cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too. Right? This is, this is often the checking, the box kind of activity. Insurance companies require it, but we wanna make it something that people want to do and wanna engage with. So even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that. So it wasn't just about protecting our school data. It's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something you do in all aspects of your life. Especially now that the folks are working hybrid off of working from home with equipment from the school, this stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home. And so knowing how to protect that is important. And so we definitely run, run those programs in a way that, that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >>So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until of course we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can, you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples. Is that what you're talking about? About having fun? >>Yeah. I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories. You know, they, they, they, they stop as they run. So they're, they're, they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going. So you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic. Yeah. That's why I think is, is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun. It's not, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure, you know, the sender of, of the email. Now you you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not. So that's where I think the learning comes in. >>Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much. Appreciate your time. Kevin drew awesome. Having you in the cube. >>My pleasure. Thank you. >>Yeah. Great to be here. Thanks. Okay. In a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

>>From London, England. It's the cube covering Koopa inspire 19 brought to you by Cooper. >>Hey, welcome to the cube. At least the Martin on the ground in London, a Coupa inspire 19 and I'm really excited to be joined by my last guest of the day. Save the best for last. We have Roger Hamoud, the EVP of products from Kupo Russia. Welcome back to the program. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming here. Of course, it's been great. We've had a, we've had a great day. Lots of buzz and excitement in the expo hall. The lights are jammed. It's happy hours. Happy hour for time for the Q during happy hour. So I know your keynote is tomorrow, so we'll get to that since we won't cover that. But talk to me about some of the new product innovations that Cuba announced today. The last time we spoke at inspire Las Vegas was only a few months ago. So what's new? Wow. A lot is new. It's, it's hard to believe. >>It's only been three months since then. It's been so close. Um, we very much continue our, um, focus on our community. Powered, uh, capabilities. Uh, this has been an incredible focus for us. Uh, so most recently we've added to all of the announcements we talked about at, uh, Vegas, uh, the, um, next waves of source together the opportunity to bring our community to come and source, uh, using their collective spent power and lots of new enhancements in that area. And also we're taking our supplier insights to the next level. One of the exciting capabilities our customers loved is that being part of a community member, I can come in and I can look at insights across all of my suppliers, uh, from the entire community. What we have, we've been working with them on is constantly adding more and more information to that. So now we have diversity data. >>So you can come in and you can search for suppliers that meet your women. Exactly. Exactly. Those are increasingly becoming more and more important. And then we can help companies source with the right suppliers much more easily right off the bat. Um, other areas that we've announced today was a coupon pay for expenses in early access program. Uh, we also announced invoice thing. Um, going on GA, when we talked in Vegas, it was still in the early access program, uh, capabilities and opening up our platform, Coupa as a platform. >> Uh, tell me about that, cause I wasn't quite clear when Rob was talking about it this morning. I thought I wanna dig in that with you. Kupa as a platform. What is that? What does it look like? So what's exciting about this is, so from our inception as a company, we were always had this old in Cooper about being open as an ally for the entire ecosystem that our customers might have. >>Our vision has always been, we want to be the, ultimately the business screen for everything business spend management related for our customers. So over years we kept taking the level of openness with our partners through different, um, different levels. If you say, if you will, for example, we started with just integrations in the beginning and we certify these integrations with coupon link. Um, we've taken it most recently where we allow partners to embed their mini apps within Cooper. So, for example, um, you can see in one of our partners EcoVadis now they have the capability to embed their supplier diversity data sustainability data right on the supplier record. Okay. And what's beautiful about this is that our customers, when they look at it, it looks a one beautiful unified experience and bringing all the data in context for what they want. Um, today, this morning, uh, Rob shared one example from Amadeus for, uh, trip integrations. >>So right on the homepage, I can see right within Cooper, I can see all their bookings that I've done with the travel provider, Mike pre-approvals, expense reports, all within one unified experience. But ultimately where we want to take coop as a platform is to become this app directory that, uh, third party partners and platform developers start building applications to extend Copa to bring more choice and value to our customers. Okay. Wow. Is that one of the things I saw Rob shared this morning was integration with Slack. Yes. So business folks can review, approve, or reject, like expenses for example, right from within Slack without even having to go into the platform. Yes, yes. That you hit on a very important concept, which we call the best UI is no UI in many ways. And the idea there is um, we always put ourselves in the user's shoes and ask ourselves how do we get them what they need with the least friction? >>In some cases that might involve a user experience because you need to ask them questions and make cases. We can automate the whole thing. So we just do it. And in many cases it means we go to them to where they are such as in Slack, I'm going to ask you to leave Slack, go somewhere else right then and there you should be able to approve or reject why you have to go anywhere else. Is that what, what Cuba means by no UI is the best UI, correct. Best UI is no UI. So ultimately wherever there is effort, we, we want to involve people only when they need to add value. That's it. And as much as we're able to automate, that's great. So we take that off of their table and we also adjust to the type of experience they need. Sometimes just a text message is enough sometimes to bring the data to me into a collaboration applications that I want. >>Um, sometimes we, we help them approve right from, um, a button. You don't even go into Kupa in order to do that. So always thinking of how we drive adoption, drive adoption. And it's an important concept, not just on the employee side of companies, it's even more so on the supplier side as well. Now when you think of any or like large organizations, they have tens of thousands of thousands of suppliers, many have hundreds of thousand suppliers. And the supplier ecosystem is everything from very small contractor, mom and pop shop, maybe two people or even one person all the way to very, very large companies. Okay. So as you look at that whole spectrum, you have to really think what does every audience need? And so in many cases, these people, um, they may need to do everything very quickly straight from an email without having to remember a user ID and a password to log into something. >>So eliminates friction at every step of the process for them. Wow. So let's talk about that Vic community insights. As we look at some of the, uh, the data that KUKA has gotten from finance leaders of the UK, that was like a survey that you guys, yes, I did recently have 253 decision makers and finance and some of the numbers were glaring. Like, wow, 96% of these decision makers said we don't have complete visibility correct. Of all of our spent. And then I was talking to a customer today who said, we've got now gotten 95% of all of our business men going through Coupa and that was within less than a year. Yes. So the opportunity there to deliver that visibility and those insights back to the community is, is pumped, is incredibly exciting. It's incredibly exciting. We're starting to see more and more the sentiment that's in key, loud and clear and um, by working constantly on the AE, the accelerated and coupon, we work on getting more and more of the spend for each and every customer under management. >>Um, we, when we start to projects for customers right off the bat, uh, we use our AI classification tools before they even start with Copa, where we start helping them get visibility onto all of their existing spent so that as they start into their Coupa journey, they are always looking at it holistically. Okay. So we know them, realize all of that data and provide them insights and reports right off the bat as well. Tell me about the customer interactions that you have as the EVP of product, lot of customers on the platform, a lot of data there. How are customers influential? Yes, yes. The direction. Like for example, you know, obviously I won't give a secret sauce, but for Cooper inspire 20, 20, what are some of the things that we might see customers influencing in terms of your roadmap that direction? Partnerships? Yes. Yes. >>Um, in general, the way, um, we've always worked, uh, at Coupa with our customers and we call them like our community members really is an inc very incredibly tight partnership. Um, we have three releases a year, January, may and September. Each of them packed with roughly about anywhere 72, 19 new features and capabilities. And all of these capabilities are touched either conceived by customers, with customers or touched by customers in the form of working with them on early access validation and all of that. And for me, one of my most favorite things I get to enjoy about working in SAS and, and uh, being at Cooper is that as soon as you are rolling out these capabilities and turning them on in the cloud, customers are using them. So even though like for example right now my entire team has just finished the walkthroughs of all our may release for inspire. >>And when we come back from this trip, uh, we will start the, you know, the, these, the design and, and um, definition. Um, often we might hear of new requirements that might come up and because we are InsightSquared able to, um, here at just what it makes sense and actually be incredibly responsive to what we see. >> How do you do that? How do you look through all the different responses and correlate that data and determine what makes sense to stack? Rank in terms of priorities for new features and new capabilities. So it's definitely an art and a science for sure. Um, but there's a framework that, uh, we follow, uh, since the beginning and we continue to follow and continues to serve us really well. Uh, which is always balancing between three drivers of customers, market and innovation. So the customer one is the obvious one of course, where and many events like this and one on ones and online community. >>We're talking to customers and they're specifically coming and asking for help in areas. Now, we may not build the feature exactly as they asked, but we listened to the pain beneath it and late using the latest technologies, we think of what is the best approach to solve the real pain that they have. So that's one part of the planning for every release cycle. The other is overall market. So for example, as we grow into more regions, uh, newer areas, new spend categories, um, new adjacent powered applications that our customers are needing, um, we started expanding in that area as well. Um, for example, we, right now in London, um, a lot of, uh, when I joined Cooper back in 2012, uh, we were just starting the, uh, entry into the, uh, Mel market and a lot of the product capabilities were market driven in the sense that we were spending a lot of time on compliance and different regulations and all of that. >>And the third is innovation. And what is always one of the things as we bring people on board at Cooper and talk about the framework, um, innovation for us is what we call pragmatic innovation. And it's comes from deep understanding what are the customer problems, what are the market problems? And then we ask ourselves using everything, the latest technologies, what is the best way? So you'll never hear us talk about AI for AI sake and blockchain and all of that would always talking about do we deeply understand the problem and what is the most appropriate? Um, so we call them CMI customer innovation. Uh, within my products organization, every product managers usually has a vision for their product and they have a full release roadmap. And in each full release roadmap, they are listing things as C M I in many cases the same capability is C and M and I, so it becomes an art and a science of balancing those types of things. >>But ultimately when we look at our collective release of CMI, we're asking ourselves, how much does this release accelerate the success goals of our customers? Right. And generally that's the framework that we use. Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you for explaining that. In terms of acceleration, some of the numbers that Rob shared this morning, we're, I think your customers are collectively approving invoices 30% faster than last year. I said medium, mid size market, customers are getting lot going live on Kupa in about four months. Correct. And mid large enterprises and about eight months. So. Right. And I've talked to a number of customers today about the speed of which they're able to get onto the platform and actually start seeing business value. So that's a free coupon for acceleration was well dissected today. Yes. Yes. It's definitely, yeah. Um, these are the vision areas that Rob talked about today. >>And in each of these vision areas, we're always asking ourselves, how do we continue to accelerate? So that's actually how one of the ideas was born around the turtle is I'm the hair, which is we want to accelerate cycle times, cycle times, and what are the different ways we can do this? What can we borrow from um, the, uh, our consumer lives to do this? And that's where the game unification came. Yes. And sure enough, it was one of those things that got people super excited and, and they're putting more attention into it. Well, the consumer side of our lives is we're so demanding because we can get anything that we want. We can buy products and services, we can pay bills with a clicker swipe. And so the B to C side from a payments perspective has innovated far more rapidly than the B2B side has. >>Correct. A lot more challenged there on the B2B side. But as consumers, we want a simple experience. One of the customers I spoke to who said when he was looking for technology, he's on what something that looks like Amazon marketplace. Yeah. Because from an adoption perspective, my teams will understand it. You so that the consumerization always interests me because we are those pretty much, you know, 12 plus hours a day and to see how software companies like KUKA are taking and meeting the needs of those customers, obviously it's not an overnight process. It gets people excited. It gets its absolutely is you right. That always fascinated me also how I've seen so many companies, um, like people almost have two personalities. Like they go into their personal life, they have a personality, they go into their professional lives and like, Oh, it's okay. It's like a backend system. >>This and this and this. Um, but increasingly the new generation is no longer tolerating and the drive is starting to just go find those shifts that happen changing, right? Yes, yes. But I can't, if I can have this in my personal life, then I need to be able to transact. Exactly. Exactly. Why does it take 45 days? Exactly. Exactly. Five days. Um, so last question for you. Since your keynote is tomorrow. Yes. What are some of the strategic visionary elements that you're going to leave the audience with? So I'm going to leave the audience with the key pillars of our strategy. Um, latest innovations we've done towards them and where we are taking them in the years ahead. One of the things I've always done over the years at inspire is we always share at preview of what, um, the community has been talking to us about and we're working with. >>And usually at the end of it, a lot of new community members might come in and ask to participate in some of the development because it means a lot to them for their own business. And then usually by the following inspire, we start showing these things actually live and, and, um, executed on. So the, um, the three strategic pillars I'll be sharing and talking about are all around the pipe that Trump talked about. Yep. How do I capture more and more spend under management? So we'll be talking about the consumerizing experiences voice using voice use Copa using facial recognition in Cooper. Uh, we'll be talking about new concepts around travel, around the group card school, applying all of it around the theme, focused on the um, end users and delight them, blow them away with consumer experiences. And then now that we do all of that, we can jump into the power users because we are increasing that spend under management. >>The theme by far is all around suite synergy suite synergy. So we seriously, this doesn't exist in the market. The market overall was all siloed applications. We're creating a new category and we've created these beautiful, elegant flows for our customers today. But there's also a wonderful long journey ahead in what we are taking up. Well maybe we'll get to talk about synergy at inspire 20 slowly. I will, we would love to have you again. Excellent. We're going to in Vegas for the afternoon. Best of luck in your keynote tomorrow and we'll see you the next inspire. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for Raja Hamoud. I, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from Coupa inspire 19 from London. Bye for now.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation >> live in. Welcome to a special cube conversation here in Palo Alto. The Cube Studios. Jon, for your host. We're here with a special panel. Talk about the new brand of tech leaders in this era of cloud computing data. Aye, aye. And engineering excellence with us. We have Christine Heckart to CEO of Scaler J. P. Krishna of Marthe Moorthy. These s VP of engineering a Copa software and Patna saying, VP of engineering a glass door. Guys, welcome to come the Cube conversation. Welcome, engineer. And you guys are all running engineering organizations. You've been a former engineer now running a big company CEO, engineering led company. This is a big trend that's clearly defined. No one needs any validation. Cloud computing has certainly changed the game, eh? I certainly the hottest trend with respect, the data machine learning and the benefits. They're changing the cultures of companies changing how things were built, how people are hired. You're starting to see a complete shift towards old way and new ways. I want to get your thoughts about the engineering opportunities. What is engineering excellence today mean in this modern error? >> Well, for us it we talk a lot about mastery and setting up an environment where engineers have a chance to build their own mastery. But they can also have the necessary tools and technologies to be master of their domain. And these domains, especially if it's cloud base. They're very distributed. They're very, very fast moving. There's a lot of continual risk s so you have to set them up in the right way so they could be successful. >> What's your thoughts? I mean, you guys air cutting edge startup? >> Yes. For us, it's very important that the environment, the working moment for engineers, is organically inspiring. And what I mean by that is when every engineer no, why are there what are they doing? Well, how their work is impacting the company in the business initiators. At the same time, we are making sure that their interests are aligned with Albert projects and work in a way that we are also in a healthy, very extending and stretching their skills when their work has a purpose. And that's what our mission is, which is we want to make sure that everybody finds an opportunity where they feel there's a purpose that its purpose driven, that's when we feel like it. That's a great environment where they will be inspired to come every day and deliver their 110% >> J p excellence and engineering. I mean, this is what people strive for. >> So excellent points from both off them and I. I think I have a slightly different take on it as well. Today's business is we are asked to respond really, really fast, maybe hear the tongue a gel everywhere, John, right? So it's about how do we respond to the needs of the business as quickly as you can On dhe, it becomes the mantra for the organization. Having said that, there is another side to it. The dark side is technical debt. That's something we all have toe grapple with because you're moving fast, you're making decisions. You're hoping things all right, You want to prove your thesis out there, but at the same time, you don't wantto put yourself behind so that it might come and bite you later. So it's finding that balance is really, really important, and that becomes the focal point of the organization. How do you move fast, but at the same time Hold it. Oh, do you not slow yourself down in the >> future? That's a great point. I want to get probably your thoughts. That's because open source has been really a different game changer from the old way to the new way. Because you could work with people from different companies. You can work on projects that a better man for other people as well. So it's got a communal aspect to it. But also there is an element of speed the same time agile forces, this kind of concept. So technical debt. You want to move fast, we gotta recover. You kind of know how to get there. How is open source? Change that in Europe in >> well, number one thing that opens and allows all smaller company especially but more companies is that now you you can take on an open source project and start rather starting from ground zero. You can start somewhere where you know it's already helped, and you have a framework ready to start working on. So you're not every two single time we're building our thinking off a new idea you're not starting. Okay, Now let me school start from ground up, right? So you already are at a certain level, the second area where, like you said, you know, we're a Joe. Uh, we have open source, but we also have certain level of customization that the customers needed our application needs. And that's what inspires engineers as well, which is taking the challenger for K. We have a code based. Now let me build something more interesting, more innovative. And then what they also love is giving back to the community. It's we're not. The companies are not just tech community engineering team. We are have a bigger engineering community now, the whole tackle, and that's what makes a big difference for us working in Silicon Valley to even be part of that and contributing factor. >> J P Talk about technical debt when it comes back to the modern era because you can go back to It's been around for a while. Technical dead concerts, not new, but it's always been kind of the water cooler come with core lead engineer and the team. The Aussies have a term called feature creeping. You know, the old days. I don't get it. The feature creep. Actually, it kind of takes it away because of you. If you're applying technical debt properly, you're managing the velocity of the project. So the question is, how is technical debt evolved to the management levels of senior engineering managers? Because that seems to be a key variable in managing the speed and quality of the teams with managing the table. Done. Now, management is what some other conversations. >> So the game depends on the stage of the company Onda stage of the projects you are. If you're in a really mature suffer environment, very you're not making a lot of change. It's OK. It's not the primary conversation off the topic. But if you're trying to you capture a market or promote an idea, it becomes the fundamental thesis, forgetting things out there quickly Now, getting things out there quickly doesn't mean you get to let users suffer. You had to build it in the right way, needs toe work, but at the same time it needs to be just enough so that we can We can get the feedback from from the user's on. At the same time, you probably would have left out potentially features on. Maybe you didn't even make certain decisions on Let's say, hi availability or our scalability. Maybe you wanna prove it out in only one region of the world and so on. So you have to find those balances, and it becomes part of the planning conversations right in the front. And as you go into the further iterations of the product, it becomes part of the prioritization conversation of the product managers because it's not just about getting one part done and getting it out there. But as it reached the full level of maturity that you would want, >> I'm sure there's a lot of debates about an engineer organizations because, you know, engineers a very vocal you. Yeah, so you could fall in love with your product of your time to market, maybe taking some technical debt to get product market fit. And that's my baby, though, when you got a re platform or re scale it to make it scale, bringing with your point you mentioned. How do you guys manage? Because this becomes a talent management. People say, Oh, you gotta manage the ECOWAS. But if some people are managing the project in there. They're going to fire over their skis on technical debt. You gotta kind of rain that in. How do you guys manage the people side of the equation? That because it's an art and a science at the same time? What's your thoughts? >> Well, I'll say this, um, supporting al aspects of change, right? That's also is an injury leader. It's a core responsibility and call it a priority for us, not just the technical debt, but also the market shifts. Technology shifts. We have new tech coming in. We have involving in evolving every technology. So how do via dear to and make sure that it's very important that engineering is supporting and kind of coming up with these technologies a tte the same time? We are not just pulling down to their version of grades and all of them, so in a jest, it's it's a core aspect of leadership to make sure that you, as we are supporting these changes, were also making sure that these changes are not pulling us down. So that should be proper quality checks. There should be a proper conversation and roadmap items which is saying that it's not attack debt. It's more of a tech investment, and we are talking about so that we're in lock steps with our business partner and not behind, so that now we're saying Okay, we need a whole quarter to develop new things. So it's an aspect of filmmaking. Sure, team this motivated >> This comes back to culture. Next question. I want to get you guys thoughts on this building. A positive work culture given engineering led organization. Christine, you're leading that now to start up because your own real fast a lot. A lot of engineers. They're probably a lot of opinions on what that looks like. What is the cultural quick? Because this sets the DNA early on for startup. But as you're maturing organization, you gotta track the best talent. And some say, Well, we work on We saw hard problems. That's kind of cliche, but ultimately you do have to kind of have that problem solving aspect. You gotta have a culture what is a successful work culture for engineering. >> So every everybody talks about engineers wanna solve hard problems. I think that's true. But as Pablo said earlier, if you can help every engineer connect what they're doing, every day to the higher purpose. The organization to the problem that you're solving and how that makes the customers like better in our case, were accompanied by engineers for engineer. So our engineers get really excited about giving other engineers in the world a better day. We have taken it one step further recently by starting a peer network because one of my observations coming into this organization is there are so many peer networks in I t. Because it's been a 30 year industry. There are tons of pure organizations for CEOs. There are tons appear organizations for C. M. O's, but there really aren't for engineers. And if we want to help engineers really develop their career and their full skill set and therefore develop into their full potential, it's about more than just training them. It's about giving them context and full social skills and giving them places where they can learn not just from the other engineers in their company, but from engineers across the organization or across the industry at their same level, and maybe from very different industries and maybe in very different environments. So I think in our case, you know, really trying to bring these peer networks together has been one way that we can not only pay it forward for our own engineers, but also help a lot of other engineers around of the industry >> how you guys handling the engineering talent pertaining, attracting and keeping the best now. >> So I think that's where the whole company comes together, in my view. So as an injuring leader, it's not just that I said the tune of my engineering or as to what? That hiring his top priority. It's where the whole company comes together. You're recruiting team to build the stellar interview process. You are, you know, heads of other orcs to make sure that across the board you're helping define a mission for your company that resonates with your candidates who would want to work with you. So it's a collective effort of building a stellar environment for us glass door when one of the few values is transparency and we live and die by it, which means that when someone is higher, they need to see that be within the company. We are transparent, so we'd share a lot of data. A lot of information, good and bad with every single person in the company. It's never, um, hidden at the same time. We build and set up trust in them to say, Hey, it's confidential. Make sure that it doesn't leave the company and it's been 11 years and it hasn't It has never been the case. >> What class door you don't want have a glass door entry on black. Gotta be transparent. That's the culture. Culture matters minutes. Your culture is all about sharing and being open. >> You will see it. So that's what this is, what God goes down spike for as well, right? Building transparency within the company culture and more and more as we see many stories that we have seen for various companies. And sometimes I get a bad story, too, and I get an invitation. Oh, you're from class door, you know. But that helps overall Rios living and working for user's and professionals. >> Cross is big for you guys, >> absolutely professionals who are in this world looking for a job and life because you're spending a lot of time at work. So we want you to get up every day and be inspired and happy about where you're going to work and for that. That's why we have sharing a lot of the insights about the company's from reviews and ratings and CEO data to make sure that when you make your decision of the next move, you are you can be fully trust. You could be fully confident that the date of your sharing the new with that you're making a good decision. >> J. P. Your thoughts. You guys are on a tear. We've got a great coverage of your the annual conference in Vegas. Recent cube coverage. Your company on paper looks like you're targeting one segment, but you have a lot of range and you're technical platform with data. Um, how you guys articulating to engineering? How do you keep them? What if some of the stories you tell them to attract them to join you guys? >> So number one thing is about the talent that we already have in hopes. So people want to come to work at a place where they can learn, contribute on dhe, also for their Carrie Carrie Respert, both inside Cooper and as the lead on coming into Cooper. They look at it and they say, Oh, you have ah, wide variety of things going on here. You're solving a business problem. But at the same time, the technology stocks are different. You're on all the best clothes are there, so that's an easy attraction for them to come in. But also, it's not just about getting people, and how do you retain them on? We've been lucky. That had very low tuition for many years. Right now in the engineering organization, especially in the value, it is a big deal. Andi. I think part of the things that that is the collaboration and cooperation that they get from everybody on. You know, it's an age old saying diversity and thought, unity in action, right? So I really promote people thinking about radius ideas and alternatives. But there is a time for that debate. And once we agree on a solution, we all pulled in and try to make that successful. And then you repeat that often, and it becomes part of part of the culture and the way the organization operates as >> a follow up to culture. One thing that's become pretty clear is that's global engineering. You mention the valley very competitive, some start ups that they get on that rocket ship can get all the great talent. If you will public everyone. Everyone gets rich of one's happy, a good mission behind it, you know, win win outside. Some stars have to attract talent. You've got to start going on here. You might have a good colonel of great engineers, but you have development environments all over the world, so remote is a big thing. How do you manage the engineer remote? It's a time zone base. Does it put leaders in charge? Is there a philosophy in the Amazon? Has a two pizza team is their big thing. You get small groups. How did you guys view the engineering makeup? Because this becomes a part of the operational tension but operating model of engineering thoughts >> I can go first. I think there is a tension between keeping teams working on one problem on not distributing it across the world for efficiency reasons. But at the same time, how do you all owe for continuity, especially if you have a problem in one area? Can somebody else from another region step in in a different time zone continuing? That's always a problem, and then the other one is in a landscape like ours, in which is not uncommon for many, many companies. It is not that they built a lot of fragmented things. They all need to work together. So having a level of continuity within the radius remote centers is really critical on everybody has their own recipe for this one. But the ones that works for us and I've seen that played out many times, is if you can get a set off teams, toe, focus on certain problem areas and become experts in those >> cohesive within their >> within the physical, and then also have enough critical mass within a center that gives you the good balance between working on. One thing. Worse is knowing everything. So so that works for us, and I I think that's that's the way to get out >> of the operating system. It is a couple highly cohesive, >> and you need to have the right technical leaders on both sides and be willing to collaborate with each other >> partner thoughts >> I want to emphasize on the last statement you really need strong good, really, you know, trusted leaders in the location to Canada, then inculcated more bigger team everything Glassdoor groove from one location to four locations in last three years. And one thing that we learned after our first remote location that we started was that when we seeded our new remote location with few people from the original location that hoped start, you know, the similar aspects of what glassware stands for and over core at those and values. And then, as we added, new people, they just can easily just transfer to them so that hope does in a big way. And then he moved to Chicago with the same idea and, of course, Brazil. Now with the same >> knowledge transfer culture transfer, >> it all makes it easy. Even you have few people seating from the original location that was court for us. >> Pop in actually started their first remote office in San Francisco, which has now become their headquarters. So she has a lot of experience. Everyone of scale er's customers globally. You know, we sell the engineer, so we're dealing with with our customers who are dealing with this problem all the time. And in addition to culture, one thing that seems to bubble up regularly is can do you know when they need a common tool set and where they can do their own thing. How do you, you know, balance that and where do you need a single source of truth that people can agree on? And again, where can people have different points of view? >> You're talking sing associates from code base to what could >> be whatever, Like in our case, it's yeah, if you're going to troubleshoot something, you know, where the logs, the truth in the logs, Are you gonna have a single source for that? But for other people, it could be the data that they're bringing in or how they analyze the business. But if you can be proactive about understanding, when is commonality of tools of approach, of philosophy, of data, whatever, when it's commonality going to be what we drive and when are we going to allow people to do their own thing? And if you can put that framework in place than people know when they have the latitude and when they got a snap to grit and you could move a lot more quickly and there's kind of a technical debt that isn't code based? It's more about this kind of stuff, right? It's tool based its process and culture based. And if you can be more proactive about avoiding that debt, then you're gonna move more quickly. >> Videoconferencing. Very, very important. You should be able to jump on a video Constance very easily to be able to connect with someone driving just a phone calls all of these face time, different areas of face time Technology plays a big role >> technology. This is This is a modern management challenge for the new way to leave because it used to be just outsource. Here's the specs member, the old P. R. D S and M R D's. There's the specs, and you just kind of build it. Now it's much more collaborative to your point. There's really product and engineering going on, and it's gotta be. It's evolving. This is a key new ingredient >> because the expectation on the quality of product is so much more higher than competition is so much more. >> And when you know these engineers build in a lot of cases, they have to operate it now. So, like you say, whether it's a free service to a consumer, Aurens in enterprise, the expectation is perfect. No downtime, no hiccups >> and the reward incentives now become a big part of this now. New way of doing things. So I gotta ask the natural question. What's the reward system? Because Google really kind of pioneered the idea of a host 20% of your time work on your own project. That was about a decade or so ago. Now it's evolved beyond that to free lunches and all these other perks, but this has got to appeal to the human being behind it. What are some of the reward mechanisms? You guys see his management that's that's helpful in growing, nurturing and scaling up engineering organizations. >> Well, engineers are human, and as every human autonomy is critical for any aspects of moderation. And that's what please the core level. Then, of course, lunches, matter and other perks and benefits matter. Snacks of pours. Good coffee machine definitely is the core of it, but autonomy of what you want to do and is that the line. But what we want or what we are trying to deliver, and the aspect and the information of I did and rolled this out, what was the impact of it? That new should go back to that engineer who built that. So threading it through to the end and from the start is its very core for everybody to know because I want to know what I'm as I'm going every day. How is it helping >> and we really try. I personally try Thio. Make sure that each human on the team, regardless of their function, that we understand their potential and their career aspirations because a lot of times the the normal ladder, whatever that lander is, might not be right for every person. And people can pivot and use their skills in very, very different ways, and we need to invest in their ability to try new things. If it doesn't work out, let him come back. So you know, we try to spend time as a company for engineers not just in our company, but beyond. To really help them build out their own career, build out their own brands. Engineers more and more could be, you know, on TV shows and doing blog's and building out their own personal brand in their point of view. And that gives them impact. That goes beyond the one piece of code that they're writing for a company in a given day or a week. >> J. P you guys went public stock options. All these things going on as well. Your thoughts? Yeah, >> I just came back from a trip to my newest Dev center in Hyderabad, India. It's funny. I had sessions with every team over there. The number one topic was full >> s >> so excited about food. So there is something primal about food. Having said that, I think, uh, praise and recognition the age old things. They matter so much. That's what I've seen You acknowledge what somebody has done and kind of feedback to elect partner was saying, The impact that it creates, you know, it's it's a lot more fulfilling than monetary incentives. Not that they're not useful. Occasionally they are. But I think repeating that on doing it more often creates a sense off. Okay, here's what we can accomplish as a team. It is how I can contribute to it, and that creates a normal sense of purpose. >> Austin, you guys talked about tools of commonality is kind of key. It's always gonna be debates about which tools, much codes, languages to use, encoding, etcetera. But this brings up the notion of application development as you get continuous development. This is the operating model for modern engineering. What's the state of the art? What do you guys seeing as a best practice as managers to keep the machinery humming and moving along? And what what's on the horizon? What's next? >> Yeah, in my view, I would just say So what's humming and what state of the art I think I is core thio. Most of the systems and applications, the, uh, the core aspect of pretty much every company as you see, and that's the buzz word, even in Silicon Valley for the right reasons, is how we have built our platforms, insistence and ideas. But now let's make it smarter, and every company now has a lot of data. We are swimming in data, but it's very important that we can pick and pull the the core insides from that data to then power the same product and same system to make it more smarter, right? The whole goal for us ourselves is where they're making our platform or smarter, with the goal of making it more personalized and making sure that as users are navigating a project, pages they are seeing more personalized information so that they're not wasting their time there. We can make faster decisions in more rich data set, which is very catered towards them. So smart, so building that intelligence is core. >> And with continues, integration comes, continues risk. All right, so no risk, no reward. And so we live in an era of freemium. Free service is so you know why not take the risk? You don't have to do an A B test. You got digital. You do a B, C D and use all kinds of analytics. So this is actually a creative opportunity for engineering as they get to the front lines you mentioned earlier getting part of the empowerment. How is the risk taking changing the management? >> You know, I deal with class off users were willing to pay money, so I don't know if I can talk a lot about the freedom aspect of the problem. But now there's always desire for new functionality. If you want it, otherwise you don't want it. There's a lot of risk of worsens that's still floating around, especially in the interprets there today. On it is a big tension that you have to deal with. If you're not careful, then you can introduce problems on believing you're operating on the cloud and you're servicing thousands of customers. A small change can bring down the entire ecosystem, so you'll take it very seriously. You're helping others run their business, and that means you had invest in the right tools and processes. >> So you guys are actually Freemium business model, but still engineers. I got a test that they want to take the rhythms. So is it a cloud sand boxing? How is the risk taking managed? How you guys encouraging risk without having people hurt? You don't >> wantto overburden engineers to the point. They feel stifled and they cannot do anything. So there is a right balance. So you know, there are many techniques we follow the. For example, we roll out the software, tow US staging environment so customers can play around and make sure things are not breaking for their comfort more so than for us. But it is an important part of the equation, and then internally, you have to invest a lot of planning. Appropriately, there are the high risk content on the features, and then there are the low risk ones. You want to think about experimentation frameworks in no way be testing and so on and more importantly, about automation and testing. I don't think if a customer logs a bug and finds the problem, they don't want to see it one more time. Ever really have to make sure that those things don't happen when you're investing robust automation around testing processes because there isn't enough time for the complexity of these applications for destiny thing, man, >> this whale automation with cloud comes in containers kubernetes. All of >> those things, you know you heard will enable engineers with the technology said so that they contested scale. You have to provide access to production like data because you have to worry about no privacy, security and all those aspects. But at the same time, they need to have access to the variety off configurations that are out there so that they contested meaningful so to invest in all of those things. >> But I'll take it back to kind of where we started. This, which is the human factor with continuous delivery, is this continuous risk, and it doesn't matter if this engineer is supporting a free consumer application or the highest end of enterprise. When something goes wrong, this, their stress level goes through the roof and you know, how can we equipped? These people, too, solve problems in real time to have that visibility, to have whatever tool said or date or whatever they need? Because at the end of the day, a bad day for an engineer is a day when something is breaking and they're the ones that have to stay up all night and fix it and a good day for an engineer. A human being is the day they get to go home and have dinner with the family or not be woken up in the night. And there is >> for kite surfing or whatever, you >> know, whatever they dio, there's, you know, there is truly a human way. We think about engineers and engineers get up every day, and they want to change the world and they want to make an impact. And thank God we have, you know, teams of engineers that do that for all of us, and they're human beings, and there's a level of continuous stress that we've injected into their lives every day and to the extent that we, as companies and managers and leaders, can help take some of that burden off of them. The world becomes >> the whole being seeing the results of their work to is rewarding as well. >> Scaler does a lot of stuff there, so I have to call that are at the same time in a lot of very good nuggets, J P. Brother. But one more thing that has shifted in terms of how process of practice works is more of more. Engineers now participate very early on in product development is in the day. They try to understand what is the context and why are we doing. And we do a lot of users research to understand that that process, so that they have full context, that they are building in developing eso they're more of a partner now and not an afterthought. >> Think agile And Dev ops to me has proven that the notion of silos and waterfall practices has democratizing flatten. The organization's out where interdisciplinary crossovers are happening. >> Oh, yes, >> and this has been an interesting art of management is encouraging the right person that crust over the right line was you give people little taste, but sometimes they may not belong there kind of called herding cats in the old days. But now it's more of managing kind of interests and growth there. >> That original Dev ops model, though if you have anybody read the Phoenix project like years ago, but it it was really about bringing different points of view. It's a diversity thing. It's bringing different points of view around the table before the first line. It is written so that you're thinking about every angle on the problem and on the ongoing operation of whatever you're building >> Well, it's all about diversity and inclusion and diversity. I was with states, inclusion and diversity, diversity, inclusion Because male and females are involved. We have two females in tech here. This has been a discussion. We still don't have the numbers up to the senior levels within engineering in general. What has to happen to move the needle for women in tech and or inclusionary people involved in engineering to get the right perspective? What's what's >> not? Start with J P because he's actually a huge champion, and without the men involved, we don't have a solutions, >> inclusion and diversity, J. P your thoughts on this was super important. >> Yeah, Number one is recognition. I was stealing Christine yesterday. I just came back from India. That's like told you I took a picture there of my management team. Came back here, looked at it. There is no female, No right, it's crazy. I mean, it's not that we're not trying on gum it. We had the same problem and we started our center in 2015 right? There was a group picture off the team. There was like they were like two women on the thing. We put a lot of effort into it on. Two years later, a significant chunk of the organization has got women embedded in the team's came because we tried. We went out. Look, for those who are good in this area is not that we compromised on the qualifications. It's really about putting some energy in tow, getting the right resumes and then looking at it. The other thing. We're also doing his cultivation. You have to go to the grassroots because there are just enough women engineers. It's unfortunate, for whatever reasons, they're not taking up that professional military enough studies written on it So last two years we weigh, have conducted something called rails. Girls in India, 150 school age children, Women. I mean, girls come in and then we have supported them, run their classes, hold a class. And that helps, you know, even if 10% off them, you know, choose to take up this profession. It's gonna be a big boost. And we have to do a lot more of those in my opinion. >> Europe T rex President Leading Engineering. What's your view? >> Well, I'll say this, you know, for the people who are participating in helping drive this mission just like J. P. I say thank you, especially for men who are participating in it. We cannot do this without you, but for all the people who, if they're not participate in participating in helping drive this mission, I have all share this one data, uh, one of the initiative that glass or drives this gender pay gap, which is also an outcome off, not having diverse outlook at all levels into in the workplace. And we in our economic research team. They did a study and they shared a projection off when will be closed. The gender pay gap. It's 2017. That's depressing. So for for me, when I hear people who say you know, they, they don't want to participate or they don't think this is the right approach of solving for diversity in workplace, I say Okay, but that's not the reason for you to not participate and stay out. If it join it, join it in your own way. But it's only when l offers. Can I see it as a real problem and participate just like Gibby, as you said grassroot level as well as outside One of the example that I told my team when they say, You know, we don't want to drop the bar, the quality bar, I say Sure, don't drive it, but don't drop it. But if you have two candidates, one with a diverse background, Um, who who might be after cable to the same job in 2 to 3 months over someone who slam dunk today, let's invest in the person who is bringing the diverse background for 2 to 3 months and then make them successful. That's not dropping the bar that's still supporting and investing in helping diversity. >> My good friend and heat you saw at IBM. They put out a survey said Diversity, inclusion, diversity. First companies have a bit of advantage, so the investment is so much lower in the bars, more bringing perspective because if we tell about software here has male and female and that's being 17% female, it's >> not just, you know, I had two things to the comments, all of which I agree with one. It's not just a pipeline problem. It is a a culture problem where people have to feel welcome and it has to be a comfortable environment, and they have to believe that their diverse point of view matters and doesn't matter if they're men or women. But there are lots of times when we all make it hard for somebody with a different point of view to enter the conversation. So we have to do a better job of creating the culture, and secondly, there's a saying you have to see it to be it. We have to see people of diversity, gender and of every other type, cognitive diversity of all types at every level in the company. And, you know, we had the same thing, so I'm lucky enough to send a Fortune 500 public board. And I spend a lot of my time helping women and people of color and diversity get on public boards. But if you go back seven years ago, we were 14% women on public boards and it did not move and it did not move and it did not move and in one year popped over 20%. And that's before the loss. So you know, you make these linear projections we can with effort, yes, actually make >> a >> difference. It just takes a very concerted effort. And in this case, particularly for engineering and for leadership, it is making a concerted effort at every level, from board to CEO to executive team to all levels down. Making sure we have inclusion and diversity in >> this is a modern management challenge in the new way of leading managing >> this process. These things, This >> is the big challenge, folks, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate. Final question for you guys is what if you could summarize the new way to lead and his modern error from an engineering standpoint, building out of companies building along durable value creation with its company a product or service. What is the key keys to success >> as a leader >> as a leader has a new brand of leaders. >> I would say, You know, this lot goes into, I'm sure you need to know engineering and all the strategic aspect of your job. But the core aspect I feel, is as a leader, my success depends on the quality of relationships I'm building with my team and members that I work with. So that goes into the people aspect, the people connection that goes into it, >> J p. >> Absolutely People are are a big portion of the story. I also feel understanding the problem and driving for results. You know, it's not just about building something. It's about building for a purpose. What is it that you're you're tryingto accomplish and continuing to find that? And working with the teams is so critical for success, especially in a fast moving in Christine. >> Yeah, I agree. It is all about the people, and I think old and new. This hasn't changed. People need to feel like they belong and they're being appreciated, and they're being heard >> scaler. Glass door Copa software. You guys do a great work. Thanks for sharing the engineering inputs, Thio. Leading successful companies. >> Thank you for >> your leadership. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> I'm shot for the Q. Thanks for watching. >> Well.