>>LA Las Vegas. It's the cube hovering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back to the cube. Our day one coverage of AWS reinvent 19 continues. Lisa Martin with Dave Volante. Dave and I have a couple of guests we'd like you to walk up. We've got Anthony Brooks billions, the CEO of HBR back on the cube. You're alumni. We should get you a pin and snowflake alumni. But Chris, your new Chris Dagon, chief revenue officer from snowflake. Chris, welcome to the program. Excited to be here. All right guys. So even though both companies have been on before, Anthony, let's start with you. Give our audience a refresher about HVR, who you guys are at, what you do. >>Sure. So we're in the data integration space, particularly a real time data integration. So we move data to the cloud in the in the most efficient way and we make sure it's secure and it's accurate and you're moving into environments such as snowflake. Um, and that's where we've got some really good customers that we happy to talk about joint custody that we're doing together. But Chris can tell us a little bit about snowflake. >>Sure. And snowflake is a cloud data warehousing company. We are cloud native, we are on AWS or on GCP and we're on Azure. And if you look at the competitive landscape, we compete with our friends at Amazon. We compete with our friends at Microsoft and our friends at Google. So it's super interesting place to be, but it very exciting at the same time and super excited to partner with Anthony and some others who aren't really a friends. That's correct. So I wonder if we could start by just talking about the data warehouse sort of trends that you guys see. When I talk to practitioners in the old days, they used to say to me things like, Oh, infrastructure management, it's such a nightmare. It's like a snake swallowing a basketball every time until it comes out with a new chips. We chase it because we just need more performance and we can't get our jobs done fast enough. And there's only three. There's three guys that we got to go through to get any answers and it was just never really lived up to the promise of 360 degree view of your business and realtime analytics. How has that changed? >>Well, there's that too. I mean obviously the cloud has had a big difference on that illustrious city. Um, what you would find is in, in, in yesterday, customers have these, a retail customer has these big events twice a year. And so to do an analysis on what's being sold and Casper's transactions, they bought this big data warehouse environment for two events a year typically. And so what's happening that's highly cost, highly costly as we know to maintain and then cause the advances in technology and trips and stuff. And then you move into this cloud world which gives you that Lester city of scale up, scale down as you need to. And then particular where we've got Tonies snowflake that is built for that environment and that elicited city. And so you get someone like us that can move this data at today's scale and volume through these techniques we have into an environment that then bleeds into helping them solve the challenge that you talk about of Yesi of >>these big clunky environments. That side, I think you, I think you kind of nailed it. I think like early days. So our founders are from Oracle and they were building Oracle AI nine nine, 10 G. and when I interviewed them I was the first sales rep showing up and day one I'm like, what the heck am I selling? And when I met them I said, tell me what the benefit of snowflake is. And they're like, well at Oracle, and we'd go talk to customers and they'd say, Oracles, you know, I have this problem with Oracle. They'd say, Hey, that's, you know, seven generations ago were Oracle. Do you have an upgraded to the latest code? So one of the things they talked about as being a service, Hey, we want to make it really easy. You never have to upgrade the service. And then to your point around, you have a fixed amount of resources on premise, so you can't all of a sudden if you have a new project, do you want to bring on the first question I asked when I started snowflake to customers was how long does it take you to kick off a net new workload onto your data, onto your Vertica and it take them nine to 12 months because they'd have to go procure the new hardware, install it, and guess what? >>With snowflake, you can make an instantaneous decision and because of our last test city, because the benefits of our partner from Amazon, you can really grow with your demand of your business. >>Many don't have the luxury of nine to 12 months anymore, Chris, because we all know if, if an enterprise legacy business isn't thinking, there's somebody not far behind me who has the elasticity, who has the appetite, who's who understands the opportunity that cloud provides. If you're not thinking that, as auntie Jessie will say, you're going to be on the wrong end of that equation. But for large enterprises, that's hard. The whole change culture is very hard to do. I'd love to get your perspective, Chris, what you're seeing in terms of industries shifting their mindsets to understand the value that they could unlock with this data, but how are big industries legacy industries changing? >>I'd say that, look, we were chasing Amad, we were chasing the cloud providers early days, so five years ago, we're selling to ad tech and online gaming companies today. What's happened in the industry is, and I'll give you a perfect example, is Ben wa and I, one of our founders went out to one of the largest investment banks on wall street five years ago, and they said, and they have more money than God, and they say, Hey, we love what you've built. We love, when are you going to run on premise? And Ben, Ben wa uttered this phrase of, Hey, you will run on the public cloud before we ever run in the private cloud. And guess what? He was a truth teller because five years later, they are one of our largest customers today. And they made the decision to move to the cloud and we're seeing financial services at a blistering face moved to the cloud. >>And that's where, you know, partnering with folks from HR is super important for us because we don't have the ability to just magically have this data appear in the cloud. And that's where we rely quite heavily on on instance. So Anthony, in the financial services world in particular, it used to be a cloud. Never that was an evil word. Automation. No, we have to have full control and in migration, never digital transformation to start to change those things. It's really become an imperative, but it's by in particular is really challenging. So I wonder if we could dig into that a little bit and help us understand how you solve that problem. >>Yes. A customer say they want to adopt some of these technologies. So there's the migration route. They may want to go adopt some of these, these cloud databases, the cloud data warehouses. And so we have some areas where we, you know, we can do that and keep the business up and running at the same time. So the techniques we use are we reading the transactional logs, other databases or something called CDC. And so there'll be an initial transfer of the bulk of the data initiative stantiating or refresh. At that same time we capturing data out of the transaction logs, wildlife systems live and doing a migration to the new environment or into snowflakes world, capturing data where it's happening, where the data is generated and moving that real time securely, accurately into this environment for somewhere like 1-800-FLOWERS where they can do this, make better decisions to say the cost is better at point of sale. >>So have all their business divisions pulling it in. So there's the migration aspects and then there's the, the use case around the realtime reporting as well. So you're essentially refueling the plane. Well while you're in mid air. Um, yeah, that's a good one. So what does the customer see? How disruptive is it? How do you minimize that disruption? Well, the good thing is, well we've all got these experienced teams like Chris said that have been around the block and a lot of us have done this. What we do, what ed days fail for the last 15 years, that companies like golden gate that we sold to Oracle and those things. And so there's a whole consultative approach to them versus just here's some software, good luck with it. So there's that aspect where there's a lot of planning that goes into that and then through that using our technologies that are well suited to this Appleton shows some good success and that's a key focus for us. And in our world, in this subscription by SAS top world, customer success is key. And so we have to build a lot of that into how we make this successful as well. >>I think it's a barrier to entry, like going, going from on premise to the cloud. That's the number one pushback that we get when we go out and say, Hey, we have a cloud native data warehouse. Like how the heck are we going to get the data to the cloud? And that's where, you know, a partnership with HR. Super important. Yeah. >>What are some of the things that you guys encountered? Because we many businesses live in the multi-cloud world most of the time, not by strategy, right? A lot of the CIO say, well we sort of inherited this, or it's M and a or it's developers that have preference. How do you help customers move data appropriately based on the value that the perceived value that it can give in what is really a multi world today? Chris, we'll start with you. >>Yeah, I think so. So as we go into customers, I think the biggest hurdle for them to move to the cloud is security because they think the cloud is not secure. So if we, if you look at our engagement with customers, we go in and we actually have to sell the value snowflake and then they say, well, okay great, go talk to the security team. And then we talked to security team and say, Hey, let me show you how we secure data. And then then they have to get comfortable around how they're going to actually move, get the data from on premise to the cloud. And that's again, when we engage with partners like her. So yeah, >>and then we go through a whole process with a customer. There's a taking some of that data in a, in a POC type environment and proving that after, as before it gets rolled out. And a lot of, you know, references and case studies around it as well. >>Depends on the customer that you have some customers who are bold and it doesn't matter the size. We have a fortune 100 customer who literally had an on premise Teradata system that they moved from on prem, from on premise 30 to choose snowflake in 111 days because they were all in. You have other customers that say, Hey, I'm going to take it easy. I'm going to workload by workload. And it just depends. And the mileage may vary is what can it give us an example of maybe a customer example or in what workloads they moved? Was it reporting? What other kinds? Yeah. >>Oh yeah. We got a couple of, you mean we could talk a little bit about 1-800-FLOWERS. We can talk about someone like Pitney Bowes where they were moving from Oracle to secret server. It's a bunch of SAP data sitting in SAP ECC. So there's some complexity around how you acquire, how you decode that data, which we ever built a unique ability to do where we can decode the cluster and pool tables coupled with our CDC technique and they had some stringent performance loads, um, that a bunch of the vendors couldn't meet the needs between both our companies. And so we were able to solve their challenge for them jointly and move this data at scale in the performance that they needed out with these articles, secret server enrollments into, into snowflake. >>I almost feel like when you have an SAP environment, it's almost stuck in SAP. So to get it out is like, it's scary, right? And this is where it's super awesome for us to do work like this. >>On that front, I wanted to understand your thoughts on transformation. It's a word, it's a theme of reinvent 2019. It's a word that we hear at every event, whether we're talking about digital transformation, workforce, it, et cetera. But one of the things that Andy Jassy said this morning was that got us start. It's this is more than technology, right? This, the next gen cloud is more than technology. It's about getting those senior leaders on board. Chris, your perspective, looking at financial services first, we were really surprised at how quickly they've been able to move. Understanding presumably that if they don't, there's going to be other businesses. But are you seeing that as the chief revenue officer or your conversations starting at that CEO level? >>It kinda has to like in the reason why if you do in bottoms up approach and say, Hey, I've got a great technology and you sell this great technology to, you know, a tech person. The reality is unless the C E O CIO or CTO has an initiative to do digital transformation and move to the cloud, you'll die. You'll die in security, you'll die in legal lawyers love to kill deals. And so those are the two areas that I see D deals, you know, slow down significantly. And that's where, you know, we, it's, it's getting through those processes and finding the champion at the CEO level, CIO level, CTO level. If you're, if you're a modern day CIO and you do not have a a cloud strategy, you're probably going to get replaced >>in 18 months. So you know, you better get on board and you'd better take, you know, taking advantage of what's happening in the industry. >>And I think that coupled with the fact that in today's world, you mean, you said there's a, it gets thrown around as a, as a theme and particularly the last couple of years, I think it's, it's now it is actually a strategy and, and reality because what Josephine is that there's as many it tech savvy people sit in the business side of organizations today that used to sit in legacy it. And I think it's that coupled with the leadership driving it that's, that's demanding it, that demanding to be able to access that certain type of data in a geo to make decisions that affect the business. Right now. >>I wonder if we could talk a little bit more about some of the innovations that are coming up. I mean I've been really hard on data. The data warehouse industry, you can tell I'm jaded. I've been around a long time. I mean I've always said that that Sarbanes Oxley saved the old school BI and data warehousing and because all the reporting requirements, and again that business never lived up to its promises, but it seems like there's this whole new set of workloads emerging in the cloud where you take a data warehouse like a snowflake, you may be bringing in some ML tools, maybe it's Databricks or whatever. You HVR helping you sort of virtualize the data and people are driving new workloads that are, that are bringing insights that they couldn't get before in near real time. What are you seeing in terms of some of those gestalt trends and how are companies taking advantage of these innovations? >>I think one is just the general proliferation of data. There's just more data and like you're saying from many different sources, so they're capturing data from CNC machines in factories, you know like like we do for someone like GE, that type of data is to data financial data that's sitting in a BU taking all of that and going there's just as boss some of data, how can we get a total view of our business and at a board level make better decisions and that's where they got put it in I snowflake in this an elastic environment that allows them to do this consolidated view of that whole organization, but I think it's largely been driven by things that digitize their sensors on everything and there's just a sheer volume of data. I think all of that coming together is what's, what's driven it >>is is data access. We talked about security a little bit, but who has rights to access the data? Is that a challenge? How are you guys solving that or is it, I mean I think it's like anything like once people start to understand how a date where we're an acid compliant date sequel database, so we whatever your security you use on your on premise, you can use the same on snowflake. It's just a misperception that the industry has that being on, on in a data center is more secure than being in the cloud and it's actually wrong. I guess my question is not so much security in the cloud, it's more what you were saying about the disparate data sources that coming in hard and fast now. And how do you keep track of who has access to the data? I mean is it another security tool or is it a partnership within owes? >>Yeah, absolutely man. So there's also, there's in financial data, there's certain geos, data leaves, certain geos, whether it be in the EU or certain companies, particularly this end, there's big banks now California, there's stuff that we can do from a security perspective in the data that we move that's secure, it's encrypted. If we capturing data from multiple different sources, items we have that we have the ability to take it all through one, one proxy in the firewall, which does, it helps him a lot in that aspect. Something unique in our technology. But then there's other tools that they have and largely you sit down with them and it's their sort of governance that they have in the, in the organization to go, how do they tackle that and the rules they set around it, you know? >>Well, last question I have is, so we're seeing, you know, I look at the spending data and my breaking analysis, go on my LinkedIn, you'll see it snowflakes off the charts. It's up there with, with robotic process automation and obviously Redshift. Very strong. Do you see those two? I think you addressed it before, but I'd love to get you on record sort of coexisting and thriving. Really, that's not the enemy, right? It's the, it's the Terra data's and the IBM's and the Oracles. The, >>I think, look, uh, you know, Amazon, our relationship with Amazon is like a, you know, a 20 year marriage, right? Sometimes there's good days, sometimes there's bad days. And I think, uh, you know, every year about this time, you know, we get a bat phone call from someone at Amazon saying, Hey, you know, the Redshift team's coming out with a snowflake killer. And I've heard that literally for six years now. Um, it turns out that there's an opportunity for us to coexist. Turns out there's an opportunity for us to compete. Um, and it's all about how they handle themselves as a business. Amazon has been tremendous in separation of that, of, okay, are going to partner here, we're going to compete here, and we're okay if you guys beat us. And, and so that's how they operate. But yes, it is complex and it's, it's, there are challenges. >>Well, the marketplace guys must love you though because you're selling a lot of computers. >>Well, yeah, yeah. This is three guys. They, when they left, we have a summer thing. You mean NWS have a technological DMS, their data migration service, they work with us. They refer opportunities to us when it's these big enterprises that are use cases, scale complexity, volume of data. That's what we do. We're not necessary into the the smaller mom and pop type shops that just want to adopt it, and I think that's where we all both able to go coexist together. There's more than enough. >>All right. You're right. It's like, it's like, Hey, we have champions in the Esri group, the EEC tuna group, that private link group, you know, across all the Amazon products. So there's a lot of friends of ours. Yeah, the red shift team doesn't like us, but that's okay. I can live in >>healthy coopertition, but it just goes to show that not only do customers and partners have toys, but they're exercising it. Gentlemen, thank you for joining David knee on the key of this afternoon. We appreciate your time. Thank you for having us. Pleasure our pleasure for Dave Volante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the queue from day one of our coverage of AWS reinvent 19 thanks for watching.

(upbeat happy music) >> Hello, and welcome to a special CUBEConversations here at theCUBE Studio in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier here for a special Women in Tech and Technovation conversation with Tara Chklovski founder and CEO of Iridescent also runs TechNation and Anar Simpson global ambassador of TechNation. Great Women in Tech conversation and you guys have done amazing work, you're both rock stars. Thanks for spending the time. We just had a great chat about your event you had the 2017 World Pitch competition for girls in entrepreneurship in coding and everything else. Congratulations, so tell us about Technovation. What do you guys do and you guys are doing some amazing work. Tara start us off, where are you guys and what's going on? >> So Technovation is the world's largest technology entrepreneurship program for girls and girls aged middle school and high school are challenged that you have to find a problem in your community, to learn how to code a mobile application and learn how to start a startup from scratch all the way to the pitch video business plan. And through that process they are partnered with a woman in tech mentor and they go through a hundred hour learning experience. At the end of it they have to submit their apps and business plans for judging, and we have thousands of judges who are experts in tech from all over the world, review those and then we have a quarter final, semi final and then the big World Pitch competition that was held last week here in Silicon Valley. >> And this sounds so progressive and cutting edge. It sounds like what Palo Alto high school would do with Menlo and Sacred Heart and Castilleja, but this is not just Silicon Valley this is, I mean talk to us a little bit about the scope of the program. How do people get involved? Share some of the data. >> Yeah, totally, and so it is all over the world. We run in a hundred different countries, primarily brought and expanded through our work that our global ambassador Anar has done, and most of it is really trying to bring girls who would have never been exposed to technology entrepreneurship careers. And the way we work is really through partnerships, amazing organizations and visionary leaders who do the hard work of actually supporting these girls, getting these girls interested. So these girls would typically never go into careers in tech because they never see themselves as being interested and so the hook is that you want to find a problem in your community. You have to go out, talk to people, try to understand what is a big problem that is worth solving, and then we say, "Oh by the way, you know you could solve "this problem using technology." And so you get in a whole another group of people that would not normally access these careers. >> So is it an application process? Is it in the US? >> Anybody can. >> So anyone in the US. >> Anybody. >> So my daughter who wants to get some community hours could actually go take it to a whole other level. >> Totally, so you can just register. We haven't launched the new season yet but it'll be out live in October. Sign up, find a team of girls, and there's actually a documentary, an award-winning documentary done about the program. So the same woman who did Inconvenient Truth wanted to profile Women in Tech and she did a whole documentary about Technovation and it's called CodeGirl and you can get it on any online video platform. >> That's awesome, well congratulations. It's super impressive work, very inspirational. And Anar, you're bringing the global perspective in and we were talking before we came on camera that you had a goal. Share with us your five year goal and an update of where you are in taking this out beyond the United States. >> Sure, so you know five years ago I was a mentor for Technovation. It was my first time and it was an amazing experience, and we won in the local competition and the regional competition and then placed third in the final competition. And after that I had a conversation with Tara about the amazing experience that I had, and we were chatting and she said she'd love to take this globally. And being the type A enthusiast that I am, I said oh, well okay that's fine, you know, I come from Kenya. I've lived in Canada, so we've got three-- >> John: The perfect mix. >> Yeah, three countries already, but I'm sure we can take it global. Well in fact with our work together, I was able to take Technovation to 18 countries in the first year, 34 countries in the second year, 72 countries in the third year and this year we're at over a hundred countries. And it hasn't been an easy road. We keep saying this to each other, we just keep trying. Our focus is on getting this program. We don't get caught into anything politics or any otherwise, and we just want to get to as many girls as we can. And as Tara said, partnerships have played an immense role in getting Technovation all over the world. So initially it was just cold calls, people I knew in Kenya, people I knew in Canada, people I knew in LinkedIn, my little circle. But then my circle got bigger and bigger and then lots and lots of opportunities presented themselves and one of them was the Tech Women program that's run by the State Department. They bring in senior technical women to Silicon Valley for an internship and then I said to them, Oh and when they go back home, what do they do? Shouldn't they do Technovation? And so we've done good partnerships with them, we've done a good partnership with the UN women. We've been profiled in the United Nations high-level panel report, and these things keep happening and the... But it's not just because of the community or the relationships we're building. Our program works. It is credible. Our impact reports show that these girls end up in tech-related fields as they progress, and that's the whole point of our purpose, right? Is to say look, girls everywhere should be entering technology fields and what Technovation does it it's building a pipeline of young girls to enter these careers all over the globe. >> Well it's no secret that the folks that know me and watch theCUBE and know the show know that I'm a huge proponent for computer science and you know it's kind of similar, we kind of fell into that in the '80s. It's now become very interesting in that the surface area for computer science has increased a lot, and it's not just coding heads down and squashing bugs and writing code. There's been a whole nother evolution of soft skills, Agile, Cloud, you're seeing a full transformation with the potential unlimited compute available. With mobile now 10 years plus into the iPhone, you see new infrastructure developing. So it creates the notion that okay, you can bring the science of computers to a whole nother level. That must be attractive as you guys have that capability to bring that to bear in the programs. Can you guys comment on how you guys see just the role of computer science playing out? This is not a gender thing, just more of, as I have a young daughter I try to say it's not just writing code you can certainly whip out a mobile app but it's really bringing design to it or bringing a personal passion that you might have. So what are some of the patterns you're seeing in this surface area of what's now known as computer science? >> I think it's super important because as technology has progressed we've been able to provide this program. If we were still programming with you know, the in front of screens and doing the what you see is what you get kind of thing without, we would not be there. I think the big thing that's happened in the last 10 years is the mobile phone. I mean if you find a girl anywhere today in the world, chances are she'll have a mobile phone on her and she's going to be loathe for you to take that one thing from her. You could take other things from her, but try taking that phone away from her, she will not let you. And so the fact that she's so attached to that mobile phone means that you can then tell her, hey you don't have to be just a consumer of that thing. You can be a producer of that thing. Anything that you see on there, you can actually design. This is power. This is your thing to good and great and better, and if we can shift that in their minds that this is their link to the world that's wide open, we're seeing that. >> Well the world in consumed by it, I mean a lot of women in the world will be consumers of product. Certainly with AI, the conversation over the weekend I was having with folks is the role of women. It's super important not just in AI, but as software becomes cognitive, you have to align with half the audience that's out there. So it'd be hard for a guy to program something that's going to be more oriented towards a woman. But it brings up the question of application, and whether it's self-driving cars or utility from work to play and everything in between. Software, and the role of software's going to be critical and that seems to be pretty clear. The question is how do you inspire young girls? That's the question that a lot of fellow males that I talk to who are fathers of daughters and or are promoting Women in Tech and see that vision, what are some of the inspiration areas? How do you really shake the interest and how do you have someone really kind of dig in and enjoy it and taste it and feel it? >> Right, right. >> So there is some research to back what the formula is that works and to drive change in behavior. And so there is this, one of the biggest sort of names in cognitive psychology is Albert Bandura. He's a professor at Stanford. But basically it's the same principles that drives say the addiction from alcohol or weight loss or any kind of new behavior change. So the first is you need to have exposure to someone who you respect showing that this is something of meaning. So the key words are someone you respect, right? And so media can play a very big role here for scale, right otherwise it's only maybe your teacher or your parent and if they're not exposed to technology, they can't really affect your, and so media can play a huge role there. Second is the experience itself, right. Like how do you make it easy to get started, and then it's like learning from video games, right. So you make it very very easy, like the first step is just come over here it'll be fun, there's pizza, come right, like your friends are coming. But then the feedback has to be very fast, so the first step and that's where a good curriculum matters, right. So that's where also working on a mobile phone is very appealing even though many apps is-- >> John: It's relatable. >> It's relatable but the feedback is instantaneous, and so the programming language that the girls use is block based so even though you don't have any prior programming background you can still build a working app so that's critical. Then human beings get tired very easily and so the feedback needs to keep changing. It has to be unpredictable. The third piece is that of expectations, and so you have to have very high expectations, and so that's why this current discussion around cognitive differences in gender I feel is missing the point because it's not what you're born with, what are you capable of? And so if we looked at our genetics we would never go to space, we would never go to the deepest parts of the ocean because we are not meant for that, right? But we had really high visions and expectations and so human beings rose to that. And then the last piece is less relevant in developed countries but it's still important so, it's sort of the human energy. We are not a brain dissociated from the body. We are connected, right, and so if you're hungry and tired and sleepy, not the right time to sort of make a dramatic change in your interests. So this is relevant, if for us, we try to figure out which countries are we going to work in, so post conflict, war torn areas are not the best areas to start a new program in. You need the right partners. >> So you're saying the biological argument of, of course they're different, men and women. >> Yes. >> But it's the capability, that's where people are missing the boat. >> And the support system, right? So have high expectations, provide them with the right support, but the most important thing is your own beliefs in that. >> Let's get your thoughts on that because I think you guys have a great program with Technovation. You mentioned mentors, key part of the formula most likely. What we hear in the conversations I've had with women peers has been you know, there's a real call to arms at the executive level now, folks my age in their fifties who made it who are there succeeding. They really want to give back and they really have recognized the value of having that peer mentorship and then inspiring the young generation. Whether it's part of the things we cover like Grace Hopper or Technovation things that you do. Or even just mentoring in their own communities. What does that mentorship look like that you guys see, that you'd like to see doubled down on or areas you'd like to see tweaked or perceptions that need to change. What's your thoughts on mentorship and the role of inspiring young girls? >> Mentorship from men? >> John: Men and women, I mean. >> From both. >> John: Well I see the mentoring with women, that's the first step. >> Right. >> I have a whole nother conversation in my opinion that the men need training. Not just like go to class and learn how to talk but how to empathize. >> Well my big thing has been that you know when you wanted to encourage women up the ladder in your companies or you want to encourage women to actually get in to technical roles. That intent should not be placed in the CSR department of your organization 'cause that speaks volumes, right. To say oh, well that's in the social responsibility department or the HR, that just says okay, so you're not really, you don't think we're capable of helping you with your product or service. We're sort of part of this and it's like, no, you know. So I think you want to mainstream it, which is what a lot of I and D things are trying to do now. >> John: Inclusion and diversity. >> Inclusion and diversity techs. >> To make it part of the fabric not a department checkbox. >> Exactly, and-- >> That's what you're getting at right? >> Exactly, and you know the evolvement of these departments to include everybody and to make it more diverse is going to be not frictionless, it will be friction until a time where it won't even be necessary. I and D departments should have one goal, which is to work themselves out of a job. If they can work themselves out of a job, then the company would have done what it needs to be done. But I think-- >> John: Meaning it's self sufficient, it's self governing. People are humans, there's respect for individuals. >> Yes. >> I mean this is basically comes down to if you look at it as humans it takes, every conversation could be tabled as, what? There's a person on the other side, it's a human being. Not a woman or a white male or whatever. >> And you know-- >> There's not there yet, but I mean certainly that would be the end game, so in that scenario that department's out of business the I and R, the inclusion and diversity department has done it's job. >> You don't need one, because exactly. You don't need one because you know, you're okay, and I think capabilities is really important. In corporations, and this isn't anybody's fault. This is just how it's been done. This has just been the culture of it, right? Who gets invited to which meetings? Who gets invited to which conferences, right? And so we heard the CEO of YouTube, Susan Wojcicki saying you know, she had to sort of elbow a little bit to say why am I not allowed at a certain conference? And it's like, maybe just wake up to that and say, well why aren't you involving more people at conferences and think tanks because you know, I come from a oil and gas background, and people used to do a lot of deals on the golf course because oil and gas people play golf a lot and a lot of deals used to happen. Well in the Valley we don't play golf a lot but we do do other things, conferences or get togethers and if you don't include the people in your team as groups or representationally well then they're not going to be there when you make these decisions. So maybe just be a little bit-- >> Exclusionary is a problem and Kleiner Perkins was taken to task. They had ski trips apparently planned and they didn't, well mostly guys and they didn't invite the woman partner. It was a big scandal. This is where they kind of make that, it's a normative thing they've got to change the norms. >> It's change the norms and if you actually want your company which is made of all kinds of people, to move really far ahead, don't be like that. Include everybody because the only goodness about that is you'll go forward. You don't include somebody, well you're going to hurt them and then they won't be able to contribute because they just can't and then your product or your service is going to fail. It's really simple. >> You mentioned the Susan Wojcicki post, was an article in Fortune magazine where she wrote a guest article and she mentioned her daughter. >> Yes. >> Was feeling the narrative which by the way changed from the original Google memo to have a different meaning, but that's what she heard. So the question to you guys that I have on that is with Technovation and the work that you're doing, you're exposed to a lot of the ecosystem, across the world not just in the US from young girls. >> Yes. >> They see what's coming down from the top or the media, so certainly it's the game of telephone as things translate down to the level of the girls. Is there a pattern that you see emerging in their eyes as they look at this nonsense of narratives that are moving around. It's kind of a moving train the narrative of gender, Women in Tech but ultimately they have to internalize it and what patterns do you see and what do you guys do to either nullify that misperception and how do you amplify the real perceptions? >> Can I take that one? I was in Nairobi at the Safaricom headquarters. I don't know if you know Safaricom but these are the people who came up with M-PESA, and this is the currency that you can do on your mobile phone and Kenya uses M-PESA, like almost everybody in Kenya uses M-PESA. So Safaricom is a big tel-co and it's a big deal in Kenya, and Safaricom has taken Technovation, it has embraced Technovation in a big way. And the people who embraced Technovation at Safaricom in a big way are both male. So Josephine who is a tech woman fellow who came here and then went back and started Technovation. Her director, Clibeau Royal, he's male and the CEO of Techno, CEO of Safaricom is Bob Collymore and he's also male and these men, if I could clone these men in every country with every company you would see this sort of moving away and shifting away that women aren't good engineers or can't be good engineers. They are embracing it in such a way, not because they like Technovation because they know for their business having more women and equal women and a diverse company is making their product and their goods better. >> John: Yeah, their arbitraging the labor pool, why would you ignore talent? >> Exactly. >> Whether they're over 50 or they're women, it doesn't matter. >> I want to add to that, so there's quite a bit of data, so the pattern's are not anything different from what the message girls get from school and parents, right. So if you look at the data, there are a hundred countries that legally discriminate against women. And so what industry, what message industry is telling is really firstly doesn't filter through to the larger population. Silicon Valley is a completely different bubble. But overall the message is girls are given is like, this is not for you, right, and so especially in some of the more sort of populous dense countries in the world. And so we have to fight a lot of these kinds of perceptions from the ground up, and the number one sort of gatekeeper is the father and so a key part of what we have now done to date is to provide sort of education and training to the parents because... There's a very moving story that, we work in a remote town in South India and a mentor who's very dedicated has been trying to get these girls to participate in Technovation. He did that and then there were, one girl was actually offered a job but the father kept sort of saying no, not needed, no girl in my family ever needs to work, but he fought it. And then so then the girl actually gets a job, and then a year later the father calls the mentor and said, "You know what, I'm so grateful that you did it "because a day after she got the job I got hit in "an accident and I lost my job." But it's these kind of perceptions that have to be changed one person at a time, which is what makes this very hard. Unless you actually are able to get the media to change sort of the messaging. And I think in the US which is, there is some very interesting studies on that question, right. If you were to think, would there be more women in STEM in poorer developing countries versus richer highly developed countries, where would you see more women in STEM? The answer is actually the women in poorer countries like Iran, Malaysia. The reason is because in an individualistic society like in the US where there's a lot of emphasis on materialistic but it's also about are you happy? The conversation has changed to, from parents telling children do what makes you happy, and then you're very prone to advertising, and advertising works when it's highly targeted and highly gendered. And so in the '60s there was no such thing as pink and blue, now there is pink and blue, right? And so now we have just made our entire society entirely susceptible to advertising, and girls are passive and compliant and boys are aggressive. And so then when you are looking at the board structures, there's no, it's very very hard to fix the problem right there, right? You have to go down deeper because you don't get leaders who are compliant, maybe secretaries are compliant. But you have to fix the message that teachers give girls, that parents give their baby girls when they're born. And so industry is just sort of in the spotlight right now, but the issue is not that of industry it's also that of society. >> Industry (mumbles) are supporting you guys is interesting that this industry seems to be chipping, and certainly Silicon Valley's a little bit different as you said, but in general it is a cultural parent thing. Any plans there with Technovation to have a parent track? (laughing) >> Yes totally, I mean I think right now 10% of parents actually volunteer to be mentors, kind of like say Girl Scout troop leaders and so we are trying to figure out okay what is a way to involve parents and to make them part of the discussion. >> Well we'll keep the conversations going with Technovation you guys do incredible work. I'll just end the segment here by just telling a little bit about what you're working on right now? What are your goals? What are you passionate about? What are some of the things you'd like to do in the next half of the year, next year? What are some of the things going, Tara, you start. >> I think for us is to go deeper, so we are just launching a partnership with MIT to increase sort of the rigor of the curriculum, the rigor of the training and also provide more personalized learning and so this is the power of technology so we don't want to have girls drop out of the program because it's a hard program. So really trying to bring the best from industry to support that. >> Right and so you know my goal is to get Technovation to all the countries in the world, but keeping in mind we're making sure that it's delivered in a really good way and so girls complete the program et cetera, and the model that I hope to replicate in many other countries is the model that we're trying within Canada. So the new Canadian government is very interested in making sure that all of its citizens are you know, innovative, ready for the technology change that's coming there, and they launched a new fund called CanCode and so we have been part of that application process and we hope to have Technovation in almost every city in Canada, across Canada, and to really get this going and we, right now Canada is, everybody's like, you know, favorite country. And we hope that if we can do this in Canada, then other countries will follow and so that this program will get to as many girls as it can. >> Well you know how I feel. I feel computer science training in general should be standard in curriculums, because of all the conversation around automation. Automation is the fear is that jobs will go away. The data we have from our research over at Wikibon shows that the billions being automated away is non-differentiated labor. >> Right. >> Which implies that a working knowledge of those machines will shift to the value side. So you know I'm on the pro side of AI and automation personally. Especially I think it's great for-- >> But there's an education side too. >> There's the education side and I think this is a real fun area. You guys are at the cutting edge of it, both doing great work. I appreciate you taking the time and we'll have you back in for an update. Tara, Inar thanks so much. This is theCUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat happy music)