>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Cube's coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, AWS reinforced 22, the security conference. It's ADOS big security conference. Of course, the cubes here, all the reinvent res re Mars reinforce. We cover 'em all now and the summits. I'm John. Very my host, Dave ante have IDC weighing in here with their analysis. We've got some great guests here, Jay Brisbane, research VP at IDC and Philip who research managed for cloud security. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it. Great >>To, to be here. I appreciate the got the full >>Circle, right? Just, security's more interesting >>Than storage. Isn't it? >>Dave, Dave and Jay worked together. This is a, a great segment. I'm psyched that you guys are here. We had Crawford and Matt Eastwood on at HPE discover a while back and really the, the, the data you guys are getting and the insights are fantastic. So congratulations to IDC. You guys doing great work. We appreciate your time. I wanna get your reaction to the event and the keynotes. AWS has got some posture and they're very aggressive on some tones. Some things that they didn't, we didn't hear. What's your reaction to the keynote, share your, your assessment. >>So, you know, I managed two different research services at IDC right now. They are both cloud security and identity and, and digital security. Right. And what was really interesting is the intersection between the two this morning, because every one of those speakers that came on had something to say about identity or least privileged access, or, you know, enable MFA, or make sure that you, you know, control who gets access to what and deny explicitly. Right? And it's always been a challenge a little bit in the identity world because a lot of people don't use MFA. And in RSA, that was another big theme at the RSA conference, right? MFA everywhere. Why don't they use it because it introduces friction and all of a sudden people can't get their jobs done. Right. And the whole point of a network is letting people on to get that data they want to get to. So that was kind of interesting, but, you know, as we have in the industry, this shared responsibility model for cloud computing, we've got shared responsibility for between Philip and I, I have done in the ke past more security of the cloud and Philip is more security in the cloud, >>So yeah. And it's, and now with cloud operation, super cloud, as we call it, you have on premises, private cloud coming back, or hasn't really gone anywhere, all that on premises, cloud operations, public cloud, and now edge exploding with new requirements. Yeah. It's really an ops challenge right now. Not so much dev. So the sick and op side is hot right now. >>Yeah. Well, we've made this move from monolithic to microservices based applications. And so during the keynote this morning, the announcement around the guard duty malware protection component, and that being built into the pricing of current guard duty, I thought was, was really key. And there was also a lot of talk about partnering in security certifications. Yeah. Which is also so very important. So we're seeing this move towards filling in that talent gap, which I think we're all aware of in the security industry. >>So Jake square, the circle for me. So Kirk, Coel talked about Amazon AWS identity, where does AWS leave off and, and companies like Okta or ping identity or crock pickup, how are they working together? Does it just create more confusion and more tools for customers? We, we have, we know the over word overused word of seamless. Yeah. Yeah. It's never seamless. So how should we think about that? >>So, you know, identity has been around for 35 years or something like that started with the mainframes and all that. And if you understand the history of it, you make more sense to the current market. You have to know where people came from and the baggage they're carrying, cuz they're still carrying a lot of that baggage. Now, when it comes to the cloud service providers, they're more an accommodation from the identity standpoint, let's make it easy inside of AWS to let you single sign on to anything in the cloud that they have. Right. Let's also introduce an additional MFA capability to keep people safer whenever we can and, you know, provide people the tools to, to get into those applications somewhat easily, right. While leveraging identities that may live somewhere else. So, you know, there's a whole lot of the world that is still active directory centric, right? There's another portion of companies that were born in the cloud that were able to jump on things like Okta and some of the other providers of these universal identities in the cloud. So, you know, like I said, you, if you understand where people came from in the beginning, you start to, to say, yeah, this makes sense. >>It's, it's interesting. You talk about mainframe. I, I always think about rack F you know, and I say, okay, who did what, when, where, yeah. And you hear about a lot of those themes. What, so what's the best practice for MFA? That's, that's non SMS based. Is it, you gotta wear something around your neck, is it to have sort of a third party authenticator? What are people doing that is that, that, that you guys would recommend? >>Yeah. One quick comment about adoption of MFA. You know, if you ask different suppliers, what percent of your base that does SSO also does MFA one of the biggest suppliers out there Microsoft will tell you it's under 25%. That's pretty shocking. Right? All the messaging that's come out about it. So another big player in the market was called duo. Cisco bought them. Yep. Right. And because they provide networks, a lot of people buy their MFA. They have probably the most prevalent type of MFA it's called push. Right. And push can be, you know, a red X and a green check mark to your phone. It can be a QR code, you know, somewhere, it can be an email push as well. So that is the next easiest thing to adopt after SMS. And as you know, SMS has been denigrated by N and others saying, you know, it's susceptible to man and middle attacks. >>It's built on a telephony protocol called SS seven. Yep. You know, predates anything. There's no certification, either side. The other real dynamic and identity is the whole adoption of PKI infrastructure. As you know, certificates are used for all kinds of things, network sessions, data encryption, well identity increasingly, and a lot of the, you know, consumers and especially the work from anywhere, people these days have access through smart devices. Right. And what you can do there is you can have an agent on that smart device, generate your private key and then push out a public key. And so the private key never leaves your device. That's one of the most secure ways to, so if your >>SIM card gets hacked, you're not gonna be as at vulnerable >>Or as vulnerable. Well, the SIM card is another, you know, challenge associated with the, the older waste. But yeah. Yeah. >>So what do you guys think about the open source connection and, and they, they mentioned it up top don't bolt on security implying shift left, which is embedding it in like sneak companies, like sneak do that, right. Container oriented, a lot of Kubernetes kind of cloud native services. So I wanna get your reaction to that. And then also this reasoning angle, they brought up kind of a higher level AI reasoning decisions. So open source and this notion of AI reasoning >>Automation. Yeah. And, and you see more open source discussion happening, right. So you, you know, you have your building maintaining and vetting of the upstream open source code, which is critical. And so I think AWS talking about that today, they're certainly hitting on a nerve as, you know, open source continues to proliferate around the automated reasoning. I think that makes sense. You know, you want to provide guiderails and you want to provide roadmaps and you wanna have sort of that guidance as to okay. What's the, you know, a correlation analysis of different tools and products. And so I think that's gonna go over really well. >>Yeah. One of the other, you know, key points of what open source is, everybody's in a multi-cloud world, right? Yeah. And so they're worried about vendor lockin, they want an open source code base so that they don't experience that. >>Yeah. And they can move the code around and make sure it works well on each system. Dave and I were just talking about some of the dynamics around data control planes. So yeah. They mentioned encrypt everything, which is great. And I message, by the way, I love that one, but oh. And he mentioned data at rest. I'm like, what about data in flight? Didn't hear that one. So one of the things we're seeing with super cloud, and now multi-cloud kind of, as destinations of that, is that in digital transformation, customers are leaning into owning their data flows. >>Yeah. >>Independent of say the control plane aspects of what could come in. This is huge implications for security, where sharing data is huge. Even Schmidt on Steve said we have billions and billions of things happening that we see things that no one else else sees. So that implies, they're >>Sharing quad trillion, >>Trillion, 15 zeros trillion. Yeah. 15 >>Zeros, 15 zeros. Yeah. >>So that implies, they're sharing that or using that, pushing that into something. So sharing's huge with cyber security. So that implies open data, data flows. What do, how do you guys see this evolving? I know it's kind of emerging, but it's becoming a, a nuanced point that's critical to the architecture. >>Well, I, yeah, I think another way to look at that is the sharing of intelligence and some of the recent directives, you know, from the executive branch, making it easier for private companies to share data and intelligence, which I think strengthens the cyber community overall, >>Depending upon the supplier. Right? Yeah. It's either an aggregate level of intelligence that has been, you know, anonymized or it's specific intelligence for your environment that, you know, everybody's got a threat feed, maybe two or three, right. Yeah. But back to the encryption point, I mean, I was working for an encryption startup for a little while. Right after I left IBM. And the thing is that people are scared of it. Right. They're scared of key management and rotation. And so when you provide, >>Because they might lose the key. >>Exactly. Yeah. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. Right. So that's when you have things like, you know, KMS services from Amazon and stuff, they really help out a lot and help people understand, okay, I'm not alone in this. >>Yeah. Crypto >>Owners, they call that hybrid, the hybrid key, they call the, what they call the, today. They call it the hybrid. >>What was that? The management service. Yeah. The hybrid. So hybrid HSM, correct. >>Yeah. What is that? What is that? I didn't, I didn't get that. I didn't understand what he meant by the hybrid post hybrid, post quantum key agreement. Right. That still notes >>Hybrid, post quantum key exchange, >>You know, AWS never made a product name that didn't have four words in it, >>But he did, but he did reference the, the new N algos. And I think I inferred that they were quantum proof or the claim it be. Yeah. And AWS was testing those. Correct. >>Yeah. >>So that was kind of interesting, but I wanna come back to identity for a second. Okay. So, so this idea of bringing traditional IAM and, and privilege access management together, is that a pipe dream, is that something that is actually gonna happen? What's the timeframe, what's your take on that? >>So, you know, there are aspects of privilege in every sort of identity back when, you know, it was only the back office that used computers for calculations, right? Then you were able to control how many people had access. There were two types of users, admins, and users, right? These days, everybody has some aspect of, >>It's a real spectrum, really >>Granular. You got the, you know, the C suite, the finance people, the DevOps, people, you know, even partners and whatever, they all need some sort of privileged access. And the, the term you hear so much is least privileged access. Right? Shut it down, control it. So, you know, in some of my research, I've been saying that vendors who are in the Pam space privilege access management space will probably be growing their suites, playing a bigger role, building out a stack because they have, you know, the, the expertise and the, and the perspective that says we should control this better. How do we do that? Right. And we've been seeing that recently, >>Is that a combination of old kind of antiquated systems meets for proprietary hyperscale or kind of like build your own? Cause I mean, Amazon, these guys, they Facebook, they all build their own stuff. >>Yes. They >>Do enterprises buy services from general purpose identity management systems. >>So as we were talking about, you know, knowing the past and whatever privileged access management used to be about compliance reporting. Yeah. Right. Just making sure that I knew who accessed what and could prove it. So I didn't fail in art. It wasn't >>A critical infrastructure item. >>No. And now these days, what it's transitioning into is much more risk management. Okay. I know what our risk is. I'm ahead of it. And the other thing in the Pam space was really session monitor. Right. Everybody wanted to watch every keystroke, every screen's scrape, all that kind of stuff. A lot of the new privilege access Mon management doesn't really require that it's nice to have feature. You kind of need it on the list, but is anybody really gonna implement it? That's the question. Right. And then, you know, if, if you do all that session monitor, does anybody ever go back and look at it? There's only so many hours in the day. >>How about passwordless access? You know? Right. I've heard people talk about that. Yeah. I mean, that's as a user, I can't wait, but >>It's somewhere we want to all go. Yeah. Right. We all want identity security to just disappear and be recognized when we log in. So the, the thing with password list is there's always a password somewhere and it's usually part of a registration, you know, action. I'm gonna register my device with a username password. And then beyond that, I can use my biometrics. Right. I wanna register my device and get a private key that I can put in my enclave. And I'll use that in the future. Maybe it's gotta touch ID. Maybe it doesn't. Right. So even though there's been a lot of progress made, it's not quote unquote, truly passwordless, there's a group industry standards group called Fido. Right. Which is fast identity online. And what they realized was these whole registration passwords. That's really a single point of failure. Cuz if I can't recover my device, I'm in trouble. Yeah. So they just did a, a new extension to sort of what they were doing, which provides you with much more of a, like an iCloud vault, right. That you can register that device in and other devices associated with that same iPad that you can >>Get you to it. If you >>Have to. Exactly. I had >>Another have all over the place here, but I, I want to ask about ransomware. It may not be your wheelhouse. Yeah. But back in the day, Jay, remember you used to cover tape. All the, all the backup guys now are talking about ransomware. AWS mentioned it today and they showed a bunch of best practices and things you can do air gaps. Wasn't one, one of 'em. Right. I was really surprised cuz that's all, every anybody ever talks about is air gaps. And a lot of times that air gaps that air gap could be a guess to the cloud. I guess I'm not sure. What are you guys seeing on ransomware >>Apps? You know, we've done a lot of great research around ransomware as a service and ransomware and, and you know, we just had some data come out recently that I think in terms of spending and, and spend and in as a result of the Ukraine, Russia war, that ransomware assessments rate number one. And so it's something that we encourage, you know, when we talk to vendors and in our services, in our publications that we write about taking advantage of those free strategic ransomware assessments, vulnerability assessments, right. As well, and then security and training ranked very highly as well. So we wanna make sure that all of these areas are being funded well to try and stay ahead of the curve. >>Yeah. I was surprised that not the air gaps on the list, that's all everybody >>Talks about. Well, you know, the, the old model for air gaping in the, the land days, the Noel days, you took your tapes home and put 'em in the sock drawer. >>Well, it's a form of air gap security and no one's gonna go there >>Clean. And then the internet came around >>Guys. Final question. I want to ask you guys, we kind zoom out. Great, great commentary by the way. Appreciate it. As the, we've seen this in many markets, a collection of tools emerge and then there's it's tool sprawl. Oh yeah. Right? Yeah. So cyber we're seeing trend now where Mon goes up on stage of all the E probably other vendors doing the same thing where they're organizing a platform on top of AWS to be this super platform. If you super cloud ability by building more platform thing. So we're saying there's a platform war going on, cuz customers don't want the complexity. Yeah. I got a tool, but it's actually making it more complex if I buy the other tool. So the tool sprawl becomes a problem. How do you guys see this? Do you guys see this platform emerging? I mean, tools won't go away, but they have to be >>Easier. Yeah. We do see a, a consolidation of functionality and services. And we've been seeing that, I think through a 20, 20 flat security survey that we released, that that was definitely a trend. And you know, that certainly happened for many companies over the last six to 24 months, I would say. And then platformization absolutely is something we talk 'em right. About all the time. So >>More M and a couple of years ago, I called the, the Amazon tool set in rector set. Yeah. Because it really required assembly. Yeah. And you see the emphasis on training here too, right? Yeah. You definitely need to go to AWS university to be competent. It >>Wasn't Lego blocks yet. No, it was a rector set. Very good distinction rules, you know, and, and you lose a few. It's >>True. Still too many tools. Right. You see, we need more consolidation. That's getting interesting because a lot of these companies have runway and you look, you look at sale point, its stock prices held up cuz of the Toma Bravo acquisition, but all the rest of the cyber stocks have been crushed. Yeah. You know, especially the high flyers, like a Senti, a one or a crowd strike, but yeah, just still M and a opportunity >>Itself. So platform wars. Okay. Final thoughts. What do you thinks happening next? What's what's your outlook for the, the next year or so? >>So in the, in the identity space, I'll talk about Phillip can cover cloud force. You know, it really is more consolidation and more adoption of things that are beyond simple SSO, right. It was, you know, just getting on the systems and now we really need to control what you're able to get to and who you are and do it as transparently as we possibly can because otherwise, you know, people are gonna lose productivity, right. They're not gonna be able to get to what they want. And that's what causes the C-suite to say, wait a minute, you know, DevOps, they want to update the product every day. Right. Make it better. Can they do that? Or did security get in the way people every once in a while I'll call security, the department of no, right? Yeah. Well, >>Yeah. They did it on stage. Yeah. They wanna be the department of yes, >>Exactly. And the department that creates additional value. If you look at what's going on with B to C or C IAM, consumer identity, that is all about opening up new direct channels and treating people like, you know, they're old friends, right. Not like you don't know 'em you have to challenge >>'em we always say you wanna be in the boat together. It sinks or not. Yeah. Right. Exactly. >>Phillip, >>Okay. What's your take? What's your outlook for the year? >>Yeah. I think, you know, something that we've been seeing as consolidation and integration, and so, you know, companies looking at from built time to run time investing in shift left infrastructure is code. And then also in the runtime detection makes perfect sense to have both the agent and agentless so that you're covering any of the gaps that might exist. >>Awesome. Jerry, Phillip, thanks for coming on the queue with IDC and sharing >>Your oh our pleasure perspective. >>Commentary, have any insights and outlook. Appreciate it. You bet. Thank you. Okay. We've got the great direction here from IDC analyst here on the queue. I'm John for a Dave, we're back more after this shirt break.

>> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube were Rhetorical Park in San Francisco on the shores of McCovey Cove. I just love saying that we >> haven't been here since >> 2014. We're excited to be back for a really interesting event is called Sports Tech Tokyo World Demo Day. This next guest has been at it for a number of years. A really cool technology. We're excited for the conversation and to welcome Mark Philip. He's the founder and CEO of Are >> You watching this Mark? >> Great to see you. Good to see you, too. Absolutely. So, first off, you've been Thio Park before. Here I have. It's been way too long. >> There are >> a few iconic stadiums in the world, and this has got to be one of the great. So let's get into it. So what is are you watching this all about? >> We are the best friend that is >> giving the digital tap on the shoulder when it's time to run to the couch. We monitor pitch by pitch, shot by shot data to figure out when the game gets exciting. I love my Yankees till death, but the >> Yankees Red Sox occasionally tend to >> take over my entire night when they play each other. So being able to get that tap on the shoulder saying, Hey, it's time to tune in or stop raking the leaves, there's a no hitter through eight. Okay, that's what we try to do. Okay, so let's break it down before we get some of the applications into which actor doing So You guys air, You're actively watching these games. You've got some type of an algorithm based on scoring plays. Pitch count. Are we? What are some of the things that drive? Whether this is an exciting game or not, it's a great question. The easiest way to think about it is if you imagine what a win probability graph looks like. So game probably starts off in the middle. Might go up or down based on who's winning, the more violently that graph goes up and down generally, the more exciting the game is, so when probability is a big factor. But also you think about rarity whether it's we had a no hitter last night, we had the Astros with a four picture no hitter a few weeks ago. You know, those sort of things that you don't see often, even if the game's nine nothing, even if the wind probabilities and changing. If that's a no hitter, that's something you want to turn into, right? And so are you tapping into just kind of some of the feeds that are out there in terms of what's happening in the game or you actually watching and using a I in terms of actually looking at a screen and making judgments? Sure, thankfully, I'm not watching or else I would never leave the house. But for us, it's about getting that real time live data. Okay, so I can see balls and strikes on my servers faster than I can see it on live TV, which is a little bit mind bending of time. So we work with the the official data sources. So whether it's a company like sport radar or stats or opt or Abels and pretty much anyone around the globe, we pull in that real time data so we can give people that tap on. The show says Hey, run to the couch. Run to the bar, tune in. Something interesting is about to happen, right? But what's entering your B to B play. So your customers are not me. Jeff, go to the couch. You're working through other people that might be motivated to have me run to the count. So how does your business model work? Who are some of your customers? What are some of the ways that they use your service? >> I'm I'm the guy behind the guy. I'm behind the >> Red Curtain, pulling the strings, you know, for us not to paint with an overly broad brush. But we're based in Austin, Texas, and one of the big things about a city like ours versus the city like this is that our companies tend to skew very B to B versus the Bay Area, which generally excuse a lot more B to C. So pitching to the cable companies, the sports providers, probably CBS Sports is our oldest customer right now. We work with small startups, more established folks, and everyone uses this differently. But the goal is the vision. Is that whether it's your DVR recording automatically when the game gets good or just making sure that, you know, maybe you want to place a bet on the Giants or if you are, ah, glutton for punishment my lowly Knicks if the if the spreads. Good enough, you know, getting that nudge when games get exciting is an accelerant. Not just for watching in, but I think, for fandom. Yeah, well, when Kevin Durant comes back, you'll get a bit more exciting >> Nets, not Nick's. I'm gonna give you one free one. So we had a conversation >> before we turn the cameras on about, you know, kind of this. This never ending attention span competition and the never ending shrinking of consumable media. And how you guys really play an interesting role in that evolution, where if you can give us a little bit deeper background, >> I think it's fascinating. You look at >> the N B A. That really any league. If you rewind five years ago, you have to pay to 5300 bucks to get access to anything digitally, and then you got access to everything, and then the NBA's said, Well, maybe just want to buy one team, so we'll let you pay things around 80 bucks and they just want to watch. One game will sell it to you for eight. I just want 1/4 with such for dollar 99 if you just want a few minutes with silty for 99 >> cents, and now they've done that really, really quietly. >> But I think it's seismic because I think all leagues we're gonna have to follow and do this. So if you look at these snack passes and especially as thes NFL rights are coming up, I could easily imagine someone like a YouTube or, I should say, a Google if they were to grab these rights, how easy would be to go to YouTube and get a game for a few bucks and how well their entire infrastructure would work. But rewind to today when you have 10 to 20 states that are online. As far as gambling goes, you take gambling. You take excitement analytics and you take the snack passes and you kind of mix him up in a pot and you get this vision of I can send you a Texas is Hey, LeBron has 60 points with 3/4. Do you want to pay 99 cents tow, Watch the finish, or do you want, let's say, place a wager on if he's gonna be Kobe's 81 point Lakers record and then we'll let you watch for free. And so getting both sides of that equation, whether your die hard or casual fan, it's hard to say no to both those options, right? And do you see within your customer base that drive to the smaller segmentation of snack packs? Is that driven by customer demand, or are they trying to get ahead of it a little bit and offer, you know, kind of different sizes of consumption, I guess, would be the right. >> Sure, I think the horse is out of the barn. I mean, imagine if >> we were still buying complete albums. Of course, we're buying tracks when we just wanna track the idea that we have to buy an entire season. No foul, 2430 games in an MLB season. Why won't you let me buy just one game? I say MLB leaves a million dollars on the table every single time is no hit bid because there's tons of people who have cut the cord, don't want to run to the bar, but would happily pay 99 cents to stream the last inning of a game on their phone on their commute. So I think it is a combination of digital. What shoring in that We're able to do these three single track sort of purchases, but also its people continue to cut the cord and rethink about how they spend their media dollars. It makes sense really interesting. So we're here. It's sports Tech, World Demo Day. What do you hope to get out of today? Why are you here? Gosh, at least to pay homage to the reason why I went to Tokyo for the first time and had life changing Rama and I feel like I need to sort of complete >> the cycle. Uh, sports like >> Tokyo is an amazing program. There's lots of different events that have shaped different ways. But there's something really unique about this. And when we all lands in Tokyo, I think it was something like 80 different entrepreneurs that came into met to meet with all of the Japanese sponsors. Everyone had the same vibe of just really happy >> to be there. >> They didn't take a percentage of these startups coming in, so you really saw different sizes, not just early stage, but late stages well and everyone was there, too. Connects and innovate and do interesting things together. So many of us were there for the first time that there's just a vibe to this event that I haven't seen in my 10 plus years in sports. Tak interesting. Well, Mark, great to sit down with you. Really cool story. And, um, I guess I'll be watching for your watching for your app. Is the man behind the man coming through my phone? Real sand Sounds great. >> All right. He's >> Mark. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube World. World Tech demo today here at Oracle Park. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering .conf18. Brought to you by Splunk. >> Welcome back to Orlando, everybody, of course home of Disney World. I'm Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman. We're here covering Splunk's Conf18, #conf, sorry, #splunkconf18, I've been fumbling that all week, Stu. Maybe by day two I'll have it down. But this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. Phillip Adams is here, he's the CTO and lead architect for the National Ignition Facility. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> Super-interesting off-camera conversation. You guys are basically responsible for keeping the country's nuclear arsenal functional and secure. Is that right? >> Phillip: And effective. >> And effective. So talk about your mission and your role. >> So the mission of the National Ignition Facility is to provide data to scientists of how matter behaves under high pressures and high temperatures. And so what we do is basically take 192 laser beams of the world's largest laser in a facility about the size of three football fields and run that through into a target the size of a B.B. that's filled with deuterium and tritium. And that implosion that we get, we have diagnostics around that facility that collect what's going on for that experiment and that data goes off to the scientists. >> Wow, okay. And what do they do with it? They model it? I mean that's real data, but then they use it to model real-world nuclear stores? >> Some time back if you actually look on Google Earth and you look over Nevada you'll see a lot of craters in the desert. And we aren't able to do underground nuclear testing anymore, so this replaces that. And it allows us to be able to capture, by having a small burning plasma in a lab you can either simulate what happens when you detonate a nuclear warhead, you can find out what happens, if you're an astrophysicist, understand what happens from the birth of a star to full supernova. You can understand what happens to materials as they get subjected to, you know, 100 million degrees. (laughs) >> Dave: For real? >> Phillip: For real. >> Well, so now some countries, North Korea in particular, up until recently were still doing underground testing. >> Correct. >> Are you able to, I don't know, in some way, shape or form, monitor that? Or maybe there's intelligence that you can't talk about, but do you learn from those? Or do you already know what's going on there because you've been through it decades ago? >> There are groups at the lab that know things about things but I'm not at liberty to talk about that. (laughs) >> Dave: (chuckles) I love that answer. >> Stu: Okay. >> Go ahead, Stu. >> Maybe you could talk a little bit about the importance of data. Your group's part of Lawrence Livermore Labs. I've loved geeking out in my career to talk to your team, really smart people, you know, some sizeable budgets and, you know, build, you know, supercomputers and the like. So, you know, how important is data and, you know, how's the role of data been changing the last few years? >> So, data's very critical to what we do. That whole facility is designed about getting data out. And there are two aspects of data for us. There's data that goes to the scientists and there's data about the facility itself. And it's just amazing the tremendous amount of information that we collect about the facility in trying to keep that facility running. And we have a whole just a line out the door and around the corner of scientists trying to get time on the laser. And so the last thing IT wants to be is the reason why they can't get their experiment off. Some of these experimentalists are waiting up to like three, four years to get their chance to run their experiment, which could be the basis of their scientific career that they're studying for that. And so, with a facility that large, 66 thousand control points, you can consider it 66 thousand IOT points, that's a lot of data. And it's amazing some days that it all works. So, you know, by being able to collect all that information into a central place we can figure out which devices are starting to misbehave, which need servicing and make sure that the environment is functional as well as reproducible for the next experiment. >> Yeah well you're a case-in-point. When you talk about 66 thousand devices, I can't have somebody going manually checking everything. Just the power of IOT, is there predictive things that let you know if something's going to break? How do you do things like break-fix? >> So we collect a lot of data about those end-point devices. We have been collecting them and looking at that data into Splunk and plotting that over time, all the way from, like, capacitors to motor movements and robot behavior that is going on in the facility. So you can then start getting trends for what average looks like and when things start deviating from norm and set a crew of technicians that'll go in there on our maintenance days to be able to replace components. >> Phillip what are you architecting? Is it the data model, kind of the ingest, the analyze, the dissemination, the infrastructure, the collaboration platform, all of the above? Maybe you could take us inside. >> I am the infrastructure architect, the lead infrastructure architect, so I have other architects that work with me, for database, network, sys admin, et cetera. >> Okay, and then so the data, presumably, informs what the infrastructure needs to looks like, right, i.e. where the data is, is it centralized, de-centralized, how much is it, et cetera. Is that a fair assertion? >> I would say the machine defines what the architecture needs to look like. The business processes change for that, you know, in terms of like, well how do you protect and secure a SCADA environment, for example. And then for the nuances of trying to keep a machine like that continually running and separated and segregated as need be. >> Is what? >> As need be. >> Yeah, what are the technical challenges of doing that? >> Definitely, you know, one challenge is that the Department of Energy never really shares data to the public. And for, you know, it's not like NASA where you take a picture and you say, here you go, right. And so when you get sensitive information it's a way of being able to dissect that out and say, okay well now we've got to use our community of folks that now want to come in remotely, take their data and go. So we want to make sure we do that in a secure manner and also that protects scientists that are working on a particular experiment from another scientist working on their experiment. You know, we want to be able to keep swim lanes, you know, very separated and segregated. Then you get into just, you know, all of these different components, IT, the general IT environment likes to age out things every five years. But our project is, you know, looking at things on a scale of 30 years. So, you know, the challenges we deal with on a regular basis for example are protocols getting decommissioned. And not all the time because, you know, the protocol change doesn't mean that you want to spend that money to redesign that IOT device anymore, especially when you might have a warehouse full of them and then back-up, yeah. >> So obviously you're trying to provide access to those who have the right to see it, like you say, swim lanes get data to the scientists. But you also have a lot of bad guys who would love to get their hands on that data. >> Phillip: That's right. >> So how do you use, I presume you use Splunk at least in part in a security context, is that right? >> Yeah, we have a pretty sharp cyber security team that's always looking at the perimeter and, you know, making sure that we're doing the right things because, you know, there are those of us that are builders and there are those that want to destroy that house of cards. So, you know, we're doing everything we can to make sure that we're keeping the nation's information safe and secure. >> So what's the culture like there? I mean, do you got to be like a PhD to work there? Do you have to have like 15 degrees, CS expert? I mean, what's it like? Is it a diverse environment? Describe it to us. >> It is a very diverse environment. You've got PhD's working with engineers, working with you know, IT people, working with software developers. I mean, it takes an army to making a machine like this work and, you know, it takes a rigid schedule, a lot of discipline but also, you know, I mean everybody's involved in making the mission happen. They believe in it strongly. You know, for myself I've been there 15 years. Some folks have been there working at the lab 35 years plus, so. >> All right, so you're a Splunk customer but what brings you to .conf? You know, what do you look to get out of this? Have you been to these before? >> Ah yes, you know, so at .conf, you know, I really enjoy the interactions with other folks that have similar issues and missions that we do. And learning what they have been doing in order to address those challenges. In addition staying very close with technology, figuring out how we can leverage the latest and greatest items in our environment is what's going to make us not only successful but a great payoff for the American taxpayer. >> So we heard from Doug Merritt this morning that data is messy and that what you want to be able to do is be able to organize the data when you need to. Is that how you guys are looking at this? Is your data messy? You know, this idea of schema on read. And what was life like, and you may or may not know this, kind of before Splunk and after Splunk? >> Before Splunk, you know, we spent a lot of time in traditional data warehousing. You know, we spent a lot of time trying to figure out what content we wanted to go after, ETL, and put that data sets into rows and tables, and that took a lot of time. If there was a change that needed to happen or data that wasn't on-boarded, you couldn't get the answer that you needed. And so it took a long time to actually deliver an answer about what's going on in the environment. And today, you know one of the things that resonated with me is that we are putting data in now, throwing it in, getting it into an index and, you know, almost at the speed of thought, then being able to say, okay, even though I didn't properly on-board that data item I can do that now, I can grab that, and now I can deliver the answer. >> Am I correct that, I mean we talk to a lot of practitioners, they'll tell you that when you go back a few years, their EDW they would say was like a snake swallowing a basketball. They were trying to get it to do things that it really just wasn't designed to do, so they would chase intel every time intel came up with a new chip, hey we need that because we're starved for horsepower. At the same time big data practitioners would tell you, we didn't throw out our EDW, you know, it has its uses. But it's the right tool for the right job, the horses for courses as they say. >> Phillip: Correct. >> Is that a fair assessment? >> That is exactly where we're in. We're in very much a hybrid mode to where we're doing both. One thing I wanted to bring up is that the message before was always that, you know, the log data was unstructured content. And I think, you know, Splunk turned that idea on its head and basically said there is structure in log data. There is no such thing as unstructured content. And because we're able to rise that information up from all these devices in our facility and take relational data and marry that together through like DB Connect for example, it really changed the game for us and really allowed us to gain a lot more information and insight from our systems. >> When they talked about the enhancements coming out in 7.2 they talked about scale, performance and manageability. You've got quite a bit of scale and, you know, I'm sure performance is pretty important. How's Splunk doing? What are you looking for them to enhance their environment down the road, maybe with some of the things they talked about in the Splunk Next that would make your job easier? >> One of the things I was really looking forward to that I see that the signs are there for is being able to roll off buckets into the cloud. So, you know, the concept of being able to use S3 is great, you know, great news for us. You know, another thing we'd like to be able to do is store longer-lived data sets in our environment in longer time series data sets. And also annotate a little bit more, so that, you know, a scientist that sees a certain feature in there can annotate what that feature meant, so that when you have to go through the process of actually doing a machine-learning, you know, algorithm or trying to train a data set you know what data set you're trying to look for or what that pattern looks like. >> Why the S3, because you need a simple object store, where the GET PUT kind of model and S3 is sort of a de facto standard, is that right? >> Pretty much, yeah, that and also, you know, if there was a path to, let's say, Glacier, so all the frozen buckets have a place to go. Because, again, you never know how deep, how long back you'll have to go for a data set to really start looking for a trend, and that would be key. >> So are you using Glacier? >> Phillip: Not very much right now. >> Yeah, okay. >> There are certain areas my counterparts are using AWS quite a bit. So Lawrence Livermore has a pretty big Splunk implementation out on AWS right now. >> Yeah, okay, cool. All right, well, Phillip thank you so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your knowledge. And last thoughts on conf18, things you're learning, things you're excited about, anything you can talk about. >> (laughs) No, this is a great place to meet folks, to network, to also learn different techniques in order to do, you know, data analysis and, you know, it's been great to just be in this community. >> Dave: Great, well thanks again for coming on. I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> All right, keep it right there, everybody. Stu and I will be right back with our next guest. We're in Orlando, day 1 of Splunk's conf18. You're watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering HPE Discover 2017 brought to you by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >> Welcome back everyone, we are here live in Las Vegas for HPE, Hewlett Packard Enterprise Discover 2017. This is theCUBE, Silicon Angle's flagship program, we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Phillip Cutrone, who is the VP and General Manager of Worldwide OEM Datacenter Infrastructure Group, you're taking all of the stuff and offering it out to customers for HP. The portfolio's massive, welcome to theCUBE. >> That's right, hey, thank you so much, it's great to be here and what a great business. I got to tell you we have thousands of customers. Multiple billions of dollars of revenue, double digit growth for the past five years. It's an awesome business and I'd love to talk to you about all the vertical markets that we're taking care of. >> Let's start in with the strategy, so we see HP, okay, you now have a cloud play which is fine, I mean, what does a cloud play really mean, the cloud is everywhere so it's not like a cloud play kind of reminds me of the internet play. What's your internet play? It's the internet. So you guys are seeing the cloud all around you with other folks, that's an OEM opportunity, in and of itself as people become service providers. >> You know, >> The solutions are all over the place as well. >> There are services providers, but we find with OEM customers, let's think about OEM customers like this. Let's talk about edge for a moment. We've move compute to the edge as far as possible, right. That's an en vogue, that's a current contemporary topic of saying at the edge. In OEM we work with customers, say in healthcare. Whether you want records at the hospital, having it in a private cloud accessible to all doctors, but it goes a step further. You need to acquire the data first. Now let's talk about a CT scanner. A CT scanner needs a lot of processing to produce the image. So, we'll put a compute, specialized compute server inside the CT scanner to receive probably at a terabyte of data per minute that has to be recorded flawlessly into the server. Now we accumulate that information now it's not just one record, it's thousands of records. Now we can take, doctors can take a look at all that information to try to make, create better outcomes for patients. So think about pushing all of that data to a private cloud inside of a hospital in a healthcare example. Now, you can look at video surveillance, another great example, manufacturing, control of assets on your manufacturing floor and possibly telecommunications. So think about not just cloud, but pushing it down to the edge and doing the compute, processing, storage there and possibly using the cloud later on for big data analytics. >> I got to ask you the question, why are people interested in the OEM solution from you. You mentioned business is good, doing over billions of dollars, but why are they wanting to OEM, why HP? Why not just buy off the shelf stuff and cobble together? >> Yeah, so that's a long answer and hopefully I have enough energy to keep you and your audience entertained here. But let me say this, if you're going to bet your business on a product, on the infrastructure, who're you going to do it with? 'Cause it's a lot of responsibility. I can't book revenue until my OEM customers book revenue. That means they depend on Hewlett Packard Enterprise. So think about that level of responsibility. Okay, now let's think about the four components of what makes our OEM business. First off I'm going to say, I'm going to break this down into four Ss. The first S is going to be solution. Everything around here you see at HP Discover, is all about the portfolio. Resilient portfolio. What does OEMs care about? They care about great products, quality products, feature-its, great value, but, they also care about long life. So why do I care about long life? Some of these customers will spend six months to eight months, qualifying, certifying a solution on a server. They don't want to agree to do that for possibly another year, two, five years down the road. Pardon me. So they actually want to take their time and live that life out as long as it squeezes. >> It's integral to their solution. And they really spec it out. They're not just like bloating it, stacking and racking. >> That's right, now, but now they need someone to execute it. They need a supply chain, the second S. They may, if a customer, a small customer inside of Iowa, wants to ship product in Singapore, Japan, or South America, they need a company that can take them global, we can do that. One SKU, a custom SKU for that customer, the exact configuration, their image loaded in the factory deployed globally. The third S, services. Once it's deployed, they're going to need someone to maintain it. They'll do first level call on their application or something like along those lines, but they need someone to get on site and actually fix it if something were to happen. We give that assurance in our services. And then finally, you know, the OE in business is a dedicated business. It's not a, you may have not heard about us before, they were just a covert business, but it has dedicated resources, dedicated sales staff, dedicated engineering to manage and maintain. We have like a control tower. So think about our IT customers who are receiving products into their data center. It's a one time transaction generally speaking or infrequent For OEMs, it's every week we get a PO, we've got to be executing flawlessly all the time. So we need a control tower to maintain that entire ecosystem to make sure it's a flawless execution. >> So what's the fourth S? I got solution, supply chain, services. >> Staff, I call it dedicated resources, staff. >> Now I got to ask you Phil. >> Yeah. >> So you would before the split with HPE, HP had a big instrumentation business and it's sold presumably to a lot of, for instance, medical you know, device applications and use cases. Was there synergy between your business and that business? How did the split affect you? Certainly it affected the supply chain in a way, you know supply chain shrunk. Did it affect your buying power? How did you navigate that split? >> So generally speaking, the two businesses were operating separately anyway, even from a supply chain perspective, and yes it's true that there are common customers between say HPI today and HPE today as well, but in a case of calling on common customers, there's a workstation application where HPI specializes in, and then there's a storage or a compute from a server perspective, and we specialize in that, and there actually has been minimal overlap, so actually, if anything, there's still a very collaborative relationship with HPI today. >> And, and you said it's multiple billions, growing in double digits. >> That's right. >> Per year. And what exactly, I mean can you give us a sense of some of the solutions that your selling. >> Absolutely. >> What's hot? >> Yeah, I'll tell you, I want to go back to, I'm going to say two items. First off, telecommunications. Telecommunications was a huge opportunity doing the build out of 4G. Now 4G is out and that was billions of dollars of opportunity working with all our OEM customers. Now we're looking ahead of 5G. Now there's a tremendous opportunity. And we're starting to work on the servers of tomorrow. Now do we have the portfolio today to do 5G? Of course, but when 5G finally lands, it's probably going to be a vol, it's going to evolve, and it'll probably end up even being a different server than what we actually have on the truck today, because we're going to optimize and tune. But what's super super hot, I want to go back to healthcare for a minute. And it's important for all of us. When my children sometimes ask me, hey dad, what do you do for a living? Well if I tell them, I say, well you know, I OEM out, the don't know what the hell that means, right? Okay so, no no, we build servers. I don't understand that, what's a server? Storage, they don't get it. But if I say it this way, I help you connect that phone. Probably 90% of the phones in the United States connect through an HPE server, that's a fact. Okay that means it's enabling. So we provide communications, we provide entertainment, we're the infrastructure behind. And we save lives. How can you possibly proclaim that we save lives? I'll tell you how. When I'm, I go back to that CT scanner example. When a terabyte comes off that scanner and goes onto that server, there cannot be a hiccup. It's not buffered, it's not, it's got to land directly on it. If not, it's a misget. That means the patient gets reradiated, and it's an FDA offense. We have family members that have to go through CT scans, that's not a good thing. So we help save lives, that's the perspective. Now what's happening, what's so popular is collecting that data and let's go to digital pathology. That's the latest thing, now are you familiar with digital pathology? >> Not really. >> But the key point though is that the, the having the reliability is critical on the OEM, and they go to HP for the reliability, the custom engineering, staff. >> That's right. >> Because of the services you guys provide. >> And big data analytics. And that's where digital pathology, I want to close on this topic. When you go in, if someone has cancer, and they take a tissue sample, and they look for, they run the genome sequencing, and they're looking for the mutations in the cell, now, as you start to accumulate that, and we work with companies that are accumulating a petabyte a week of data on this very topic. Okay that's a lot of data. So now I want to figure out what's the most effective cure. So I can go back and look at millions of patients and look at what the therapies were for that specific mutation. That's very compelling. Now instead of throwing a barrage of every possible treatment to treat every patient, which in and of itself is detrimental to the body, now maybe it can be very small. I talked to some doctors and they say, you know, sometimes an aspirin can be a therapy for a specific mutation. Well why would I give it radiation? And this is the reason why, >> This is the power of data. >> Power of big data. It's going to help us make better decisions. >> Phil, thanks so much for coming in, really appreciate your insight, OEM opportunities are out there, and congratulations on your success. >> Thank you so much, appreciate it. >> This is The Cube coverage here at HPE Discover 2017, stay with us for more. We're on day two of three days of exclusive coverage with theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, be right back, stay with us. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. CUBE's coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, AWS re:inforce 22, security conference. It's AWS' big security conference. Of course, theCUBE's here, all the reinvent, reese, remars, reinforced. We cover 'em all now and the summits. I'm John Furrier, my host Dave Vellante. We have IDC weighing in here with their analysts. We've got some great guests here, Jay Bretzmann research VP at IDC and Philip Bues research manager for Cloud security. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate it. Great to be here. >> Appreciate coming. >> Got a full circle, right? (all laughing) Security's more interesting than storage, isn't it? (all laughing) >> Dave and Jay worked together. This is a great segment. I'm psyched that you guys are here. We had Crawford and Matt Eastwood on at HPE Discover a while back and really the data you guys are getting and the insights are fantastic. So congratulations to IDC. You guys doing great work. We appreciate your time. I want to get your reaction to the event and the keynotes. AWS has got some posture and they're very aggressive on some tones. Some things that we didn't hear. What's your reaction to the keynote? Share your assessment. >> So, you know, I manage two different research services at IDC right now. They are both Cloud security and identity and digital security, right? And what was really interesting is the intersection between the two this morning, because every one of those speakers that came on had something to say about identity or least privileged access, or enable MFA, or make sure that you control who gets access to what and deny explicitly. And it's always been a challenge a little bit in the identity world because a lot of people don't use MFA. And in RSA, that was another big theme at the RSA conference, MFA everywhere. Why don't they use it? Because it introduces friction and all of a sudden people can't get their jobs done. And the whole point of a network is letting people on to get that data they want to get to. So that was kind of interesting, but as we have in the industry, this shared responsibility model for Cloud computing, we've got shared responsibility for between Philip and I. (Philip laughing) I have done in the past more security of the Cloud and Philip is more security in the Cloud. >> So yeah. >> And now with Cloud operation Super Cloud, as we call it, you have on premises, private Cloud coming back, or hasn't really gone anywhere, all that on premises, Cloud operations, public Cloud, and now edge exploding with new requirements. It's really an ops challenge right now. Not so much dev. So the sec and op side is hot right now. >> Yeah, well, we've made this move from monolithic to microservices based applications. And so during the keynote this morning, the announcement around the GuardDuty Malware Protection component, and that being built into the pricing of current GuardDuty, I thought was really key. And there was also a lot of talk about partnering in security certifications, which is also so very important. So we're seeing this move towards filling in that talent gap, which I think we're all aware of in the security industry. >> So Jake, square the circle for me. So Kirk Coofell talked about Amazon AWS identity, where does AWS leave off, and companies like Okta or Ping identity or Cybertruck pickup, how are they working together? Does it just create more confusion and more tools for customers? We know the overused word of seamless. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's never seamless, so how should we think about that? >> So, identity has been around for 35 years or something like that. Started with the mainframes and all that. And if you understand the history of it, you make more sense to the current market. You have to know where people came from and the baggage they're carrying, 'cause they're still carrying a lot of that baggage. Now, when it comes to the Cloud Service providers, they're more an accommodation from the identity standpoint. Let's make it easy inside of AWS to let you single sign on to anything in the Cloud that they have, right? Let's also introduce an additional MFA capability to keep people safer whenever we can and provide people with tools, to get into those applications somewhat easily, while leveraging identities that may live somewhere else. So there's a whole lot of the world that is still active, directory-centric, right? There's another portion of companies that were born in the Cloud that were able to jump on things like Okta and some of the other providers of these universal identities in the Cloud. So, like I said, if you understand where people came from in the beginning, you start to say, "Yeah, this makes sense." >> It's interesting you talk about mainframe. I always think about Rack F, you know. And I say, "Okay, who did what, when, where?" And you hear about a lot of those themes. So what's the best practice for MFA, that's non-SMS-based? Is it you got to wear something around your neck, is it to have sort of a third party authenticator? What are people doing that you guys would recommend? >> Yeah, one quick comment about adoption of MFA. If you ask different suppliers, what percent of your base that does SSO also does MFA, one of the biggest suppliers out there, Microsoft will tell you it's under 25%. That's pretty shocking. All the messaging that's come out about it. So another big player in the market was called Duo, Cisco bought them. >> Yep. >> And because they provide networks, a lot of people buy their MFA. They have probably the most prevalent type of MFA, it's called Push. And Push can be a red X and a green check mark to your phone, it can be a QR code, somewhere, it can be an email push as well. So that is the next easiest thing to adopt after SMS. And as you know, SMS has been denigrated by NIST and others saying, it's susceptible to man and middle attacks. It's built on a telephony protocol called SS7. Predates anything, there's no certification either side. The other real dynamic and identity is the whole adoption of PKI infrastructure. As you know, certificates are used for all kinds of things, network sessions, data encryption, well, identity increasingly. And a lot of the consumers and especially the work from anywhere, people these days have access through smart devices. And what you can do there, is you can have an agent on that smart device, generate your private key and then push out a public key and so the private key never leaves your device. That's one of the most secure ways to- >> So if our SIM card gets hacked, you're not going to be as vulnerable? >> Yeah, well, the SIM card is another challenge associated with the older ways, but yeah. >> So what do you guys think about the open source connection and they mentioned it up top. Don't bolt on security, implying shift left, which is embedding it in like sneak companies, like sneak do that. Very container oriented, a lot of Kubernetes kind of Cloud native services. So I want to get your reaction to that. And then also this reasoning angle they brought up. Kind of a higher level AI reasoning decisions. So open source, and this notion of AI reasoning. or AI reason. >> And you see more open source discussion happening, so you have your building maintaining and vetting of the upstream open source code, which is critical. And so I think AWS talking about that today, they're certainly hitting on a nerve, as you know, open source continues to proliferate. Around the automated reasoning, I think that makes sense. You want to provide guide rails and you want to provide roadmaps and you want to have sort of that guidance as to, okay, what's a correlation analysis of different tools and products? And so I think that's going to go over really well, yeah. >> One of the other key points about open source is, everybody's in a multi-cloud world, right? >> Yeah. >> And so they're worried about vendor lock in. They want an open source code base, so that they don't experience that. >> Yeah, and they can move the code around, and make sure it works well on each system. Dave and I were just talking about some of the dynamics around data control planes. So they mentioned encrypt everything which is great and I message by the way, I love that one. But oh, and he mentioned data at rest. I'm like, "What about data in flight? "Didn't hear that one." So one of the things we're seeing with SuperCloud, and now multi-cloud kind of as destinations of that, is that in digital transformation, customers are leaning into owning their data flows. >> Yeah. >> Independent of say the control plane aspects of what could come in. This is huge implications for security, where sharing data is huge, even Schmidt on stage said, we have billions and billions of things happening that we see things that no one else sees. So that implies, they're sharing- >> Quad trillion. >> Trillion, 15 zeros. (Jay laughs) >> 15 zeros. >> So that implies they're sharing that or using that pushing that into something. So sharing is huge with cyber security. So that implies open data, data flows. How do you guys see this evolving? I know it's kind of emerging, but it's becoming a nuanced point, that's critical to the architecture. >> Well, yeah, I think another way to look at that is the sharing of intelligence and some of the recent directives, from the executive branch, making it easier for private companies to share data and intelligence, which I think strengthens the cyber community overall. >> Depending upon the supplier, it's either an aggregate level of intelligence that has been anonymized or it's specific intelligence for your environment that everybody's got a threat feed, maybe two or three, right? (John laughs) But back to the encryption point, I mean, I was working for an encryption startup for a little while after I left IBM, and the thing is that people are scared of it. They're scared of key management and rotation. And so when you provide- >> Because they might lose the key. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> It's like shooting yourself in the foot, right? So that's when you have things like, KMS services from Amazon and stuff that really help out a lot. And help people understand, okay, I'm not alone in this. >> Yeah, crypto owners- >> They call that hybrid, the hybrid key, they don't know how they call the data, they call it the hybrid. What was that? >> Key management service? >> The hybrid- >> Oh, hybrid HSM, correct? >> Yeah, what is that? What is that? I didn't get that. I didn't understand what he meant by the hybrid post quantum key agreement. >> Hybrid post quantum key exchange. >> AWS never made a product name that didn't have four words in it. (John laughs) >> But he did reference the new NIST algos. And I think I inferred that they were quantum proof or they claim to be, and AWS was testing those. >> Correct, yeah. >> So that was kind of interesting, but I want to come back to identity for a second. So, this idea of bringing traditional IAM and Privileged Access Management together, is that a pipe dream, is that something that is actually going to happen? What's the timeframe, what's your take on that? >> So, there are aspects of privilege in every sort of identity. Back when it was only the back office that used computers for calculations, right? Then you were able to control how many people had access. There were two types of users, admins and users. These days, everybody has some aspect of- >> It's a real spectrum, really. >> Yeah. >> Granular. >> You got the C-suite, the finance people, the DevOps people, even partners and whatever. They all need some sort of privileged access, and the term you hear so much is least-privileged access, right? Shut it down, control it. So, in some of my research, I've been saying that vendors who are in the PAM space, Privilege Access Management space, will probably be growing their suites, playing a bigger role, building out a stack, because they have the expertise and the perspective that says, "We should control this better." How do we do that, right? And we've been seeing that recently. >> Is that a combination of old kind of antiquated systems meets for proprietary hyper scale, or kind of like build your own? 'Cause I mean, Amazon, these guys, Facebook, they all build their own stuff. >> Yes, they do. >> Then enterprises buy services from general purpose identity management systems. >> So as we were talking about knowing the past and whatever, Privileged Access Management used to be about compliance reporting. Just making sure that I knew who accessed what? And could prove it, so I didn't fail at all. >> It wasn't a critical infrastructure item. >> No, and now these days, what it's transitioning into, is much more risk management, okay. I know what our risk is, I'm ahead of it. And the other thing in the PAM space, was really session monitor. Everybody wanted to watch every keystroke, every screen's scrape, all that kind of stuff. A lot of the new Privileged Access Management, doesn't really require that. It's a nice to have feature. You kind of need it on the list, but is anybody really going to implement it? That's the question, right. And then if you do all that session monitoring, does anybody ever go back and look at it? There's only so many hours in the day. >> How about passwordless access? (Jay laughs) I've heard people talk about that. I mean, that's as a user, I can't wait but- >> Well, it's somewhere we want to all go. We all want identity security to just disappear and be recognized when we log in. So the thing with passwordless is, there's always a password somewhere. And it's usually part of a registration action. I'm going to register my device with a username password, and then beyond that I can use my biometrics, right? I want to register my device and get a private key, that I can put in my enclave, and I'll use that in the future. Maybe it's got to touch ID, maybe it doesn't, right? So even though there's been a lot of progress made, it's not quote, unquote, truly passwordless. There's a group, industry standards group called Fido. Which is Fast Identity Online. And what they realized was, these whole registration passwords, that's really a single point of failure. 'Cause if I can't recover my device, I'm in trouble. So they just did new extension to sort of what they were doing, which provides you with much more of like an iCloud vault that you can register that device in and other devices associated with that same identity. >> Get you to it if you have to. >> Exactly. >> I'm all over the place here, but I want to ask about ransomware. It may not be your wheelhouse. But back in the day, Jay, remember you used to cover tape. All the backup guys now are talking about ransomware. AWS mentioned it today and they showed a bunch of best practices and things you can do. Air gaps wasn't one of them. I was really surprised 'cause that's all every anybody ever talks about is air gaps and a lot of times that air gap could be a guess to the Cloud, I guess, I'm not sure. What are you guys seeing on ransomware apps? >> We've done a lot of great research around ransomware as a service and ransomware, and we just had some data come out recently, that I think in terms of spending and spend, and as a result of the Ukraine-Russia war, that ransomware assessments rate number one. And so it's something that we encourage, when we talk to vendors and in our services, in our publications that we write about taking advantage of those free strategic ransomware assessments, vulnerability assessments, as well and then security and training ranked very highly as well. So, we want to make sure that all of these areas are being funded well to try and stay ahead of the curve. >> Yeah, I was surprised to not see air gaps on the list, that's all everybody talks about. >> Well, the old model for air gaping in the land days, the novel days, you took your tapes home and put them in the sock drawer. (all laughing) >> Well, it's a form of air gap. (all laughing) >> Security and no one's going to go there and clean out. >> And then the internet came around and ruined it. >> Guys, final question we want to ask you, guys, we kind of zoom out, great commentary by the way. Appreciate it. We've seen this in many markets, a collection of tools emerge and then there's its tool sprawl. So cyber we're seeing the trend now where mon goes up on stage of all the ecosystems, probably other vendors doing the same thing where they're organizing a platform on top of AWS to be this super platform, for super Cloud capability by building a more platform thing. So we're saying there's a platform war going on, 'cause customers don't want the complexity. I got a tool but it's actually making it more complex if I buy the other tool. So the tool sprawl becomes a problem. How do you guys see this? Do you guys see this platform emerging? I mean tools won't go away, but they have to be easier. >> Yeah, we do see a consolidation of functionality and services. And we've been seeing that, I think through a 2020 Cloud security survey that we released that was definitely a trend. And that certainly happened for many companies over the last six to 24 months, I would say. And then platformization absolutely is something we talk and write about all the time so... >> Couple of years ago, I called the Amazon tool set an erector set because it really required assembly. And you see the emphasis on training here too, right? You definitely need to go to AWS University to be competent. >> It wasn't Lego blocks yet. >> No. >> It was erector set. >> Yeah. >> Very good distinction. >> Loose. >> And you lose a few. (chuckles) >> But still too many tools, right? You see, we need more consolidation. It's getting interesting because a lot of these companies have runway and you look at sale point at stock prices held up 'cause of the Thoma Bravo acquisition, but all the rest of the cyber stocks have been crushed especially the high flyers, like a Sentinel-1 one or a CrowdStrike, but just still M and A opportunity. >> So platform wars. Okay, final thoughts. What do you, think is happening next? What's your outlook for the next year or so? >> So, in the identity space, I'll talk about, Philip can cover Cloud for us. It really is more consolidation and more adoption of things that are beyond simple SSO. It was, just getting on the systems and now we really need to control what you're able to get to and who you are. And do it as transparently as we possibly can, because otherwise, people are going to lose productivity. They're not going to be able to get to what they want. And that's what causes the C-suite to say, "Wait a minute," DevOps, they want to update the product every day. Make it better. Can they do that or did security get in the way? People, every once in a while call security, the Department of No, right? >> They ditch it on stage. They want to be the Department of Yes. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And the department that creates additional value. If you look at what's going on with B2C or CIAM, consumer oriented identity, that is all about opening up new direct channels and treating people like their old friends, not like you don't know them, you have to challenge them. >> We always say, you want to be in the boat together, it sinks or not. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Philip I'm glad- >> Okay, what's your take? What's your outlook for the year? >> Yeah, I think, something that we've been seeing as consolidation and integration, and so companies looking at from built time to run time, investing in shift left infrastructure is code. And then also in the runtime detection, makes perfect sense to have both the agent and agent lists so that you're covering any of the gaps that might exist. >> Awesome, Jay Phillip, thanks for coming on "theCUBE" with IDC and sharing your- >> Oh, our pleasure- >> Perspective, commentary and insights and outlook. Appreciate it. >> You bet. >> Thank you. >> Okay, we've got the great direction here from IDC analyst here on the queue. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Be back more after this short break. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Okay thanks, Adam, and the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action, the keynotes are going on in the background. It's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante's on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE, but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, and kicking it off day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me! It's very exciting! I love what you guys have got over here, very fun! >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is, and also, Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> No, I mean, the atmosphere is absolutely palpable. Isn't it? You can just feel it. People walk in and see what the future looks like for the telecoms industry. Very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage, we're really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. After the keynotes are going on, we're going to have DR maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that out. But let's check out this videotape. This is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel, and we'll be right back, and we'll talk about it. (smooth electronic music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson space at MWC 21, and for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is their unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston, or DR, as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat instrumental music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona! I'm here for MWC 21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors, and 70 demos, to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience. We're going to talk about what's in store for the new network, and the future of work. And I'm really excited to create a community, and invite awesome telco executives to see this new feature. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC 21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get-go, we planned this amazing experience that we call Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series, where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs, and awesome vendors, talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud, hosted by John furrier and Dave Vallente. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests focused on telco in the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco, and 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, am on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements, and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested $1,000,000 in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market this week at MWC. The first is at planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement, coupling your network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement, and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing is a planetary scale BSS system, built on top of the TM Forum Open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show floor. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco! I'm super excited to bring to you the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona, and virtually around the world! (upbeat instrumental music) Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry, and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (groovy electronic music) >> Okay, thanks. Just rolling that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel, I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star. And I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision, and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there! I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, it really is. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world! She's innovative, she's exciting. And if we've learned anything over the last 18 months, it's that we need that in this industry, to grow for the future of the industry. So, so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration! >> And I love the fact that she's so takes the tiger by the tail. Because the telco industry is being disrupted, she's just driving the bus here. And I remember, I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon Web Services, she was running the public sector, and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC, and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player! And she was an exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing, and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" >> Now of course, it's always that way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time, people thinking what is going on here, we don't like change, why are being shaken up? But actually, afterwards, in retrospect, they think, "Oh, okay. I see why that happened, and we needed it." So, really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here on theCUBE. Obviously, the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you missed some of the action, this is obviously the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a hybrid event, a lot of virtual action going on. So, you got theCUBE Virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites. But in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, and what was happening around the show. Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (groovy electronic music) (cheerful instrumental music) (groovy electronic music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're on the main floor out here with Chloe, who is emceeing, hosting, and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean so far, day one, I was watching your presentations and fireside chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, no, for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage, and his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing. And in 10 years, it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So, really interesting! I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great. Everyone's excited. It's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content! It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. It's very exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event, so since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event, and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry because of COVID, and people are glad to be here. But a lot of stuff's changed! >> Yeah. It's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed! Digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though, John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> John: Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years. We know that! But what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years. >> Oh, man. That's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks, and telecom, which is basically radios, and wireless, and then mobile. But it's very global, a lot of networks. But now it's evolving! And many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting, that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe, because of all the technology from the cloud players, and from the chips, getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So people look at the chips, the hardware. It's less about the speeds and feeds, it's more about the consumer experience. We got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I went, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, you order it, you pick it up. So that's kind of what can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. So, a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry? That is, the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is there anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well, I think the incumbents are going to lose their positions. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the the company that you don't see. (audience in background applauding) And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this! We saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. >> Chloe: Yeah, for sure. >> She just walked out there, and she's not afraid. >> Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up! And you can see as soon as she walks out, that is what she intends to do today. >> I love her mojo. She's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Chloe: Yep. >> I mean, even when Apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash, when Steve Jobs brought back Apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company, the iPad was a seminal, iPod, a seminal moment. Then the iPhone, and just, the rest is history. That kind of disruption is coming. You're going to see that now. >> Oh, it's exciting though, isn't it? To be future ready, rather than future proof! But actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about wire, as you're on AWS and Google Cloud, why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity. And it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. It's almost like global warming now, the icebergs are melting, and it's going to just change. And because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing, it's not like a better phone. It's a commercial app opportunity, because it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts, or football games, or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out. Can't upload their picture to Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them on the network. That's where 5G solves a problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth, and that's going to bring the edge to life, and that's money. So when you got money, and greed, and power, changing hands, if it's on the table, and the wheel's spinning, it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know! >> Oh, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved! And I suppose it circles back to the fact that DR is really leading the charge, and they're probably thinking, "Okay, what's going on here? This is different. We want something new." You did notice it, OpenRAN is something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here at Cloud City Live mention OpenRAN. What is it all about, Don? Because why all the buzz if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we get excited about it? >> That's a great thing. The 5G certainly will drive the main trend, for sure. OpenRAN is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular, and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation, has been the driver for most of the open source software. So, they're trying to make open software, and open architectures, to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware, and around infrastructure, because we need more infrastructure, we need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices. That could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology, and you want to minimize the licensing, and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What did we look at? So on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Phillip Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud, and within telco. So you just mentioned that OpenRAN is all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easily more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it at risk? >> I think it's going to increase the value of security, and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in a sense that could be explored by hackers, but open can also protect. And I think we've seen open source, and cloud in particular, be more secure. Because everyone said, cloud is not secure, open source is insecure. And as it turns out, when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security threats, but actually I was speaking to some leaders across various industries, and particularly in tech, and they were saying, actually, there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open-source environment, we are able to track them, and measure them, and defend more efficiently. So actually, they're being batted away. But the number is probably the same as it always was, we just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats, and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so to the threats. So on a net basis, it's more, because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look it, there's money involved, they are organized. There's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank, or ransomware is at an all time high. >> Yes! >> So this is like a big problem, and it's beyond the government. It's around individual freedom. So, security is huge. And I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think, the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's, again, about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time, but without collaboration, the industries are going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I'd just say on security, don't download that PDF, if you don't know who it came from. The phishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here of Mobile World Live. We're going to show this next segment, and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience, Chloe, for people who aren't here. To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona, and all the action. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Daniel Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDR. But you can call me DR! Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time! Let's do it. Holy shit! It sure is a great time to be a tech company! I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, Door Dash, or Uber, life's pretty great! Just look at these stock prices over the past five years, with their shareholder value going up and to the right. Totally amazing! But where's telco? Dare I add our stocks to this awesome chart? Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, TIM, America Movil, and Zain Group. Huh. Not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you, senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up! Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T than to Apple, because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people! I get it. You have the security blanket. You're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network, and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network, and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things. But because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far, you haven't had to. Every Telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best. Just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat. And it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting to WeChat, WhatsApp, and the other OTT apps. But it is not just texting. The total adjustable market, or TAM, of the mobile app disruptors is huge! Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about! I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love! They look at every interaction with the customer and say, how do we make the customer love this? Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive, they must make customers love them. So, they focus on it in a big way! And it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70, and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS, and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch, and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps, and becoming customer centered! Retooling around the customer is a huge change, so let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples, and drive big shareholder value, just like the tech companies on that chart! Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies in a variety of categories vying for your subscribers' disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services. Who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high valuations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You! Hello? What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAMs they throw around, you'd be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the cap ex to build out the network, I say to myself, hell yeah! We should totally go do it, and do whatever it takes to go get it. For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a Southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focus started in Rideshare, but then leveraged its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a Telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with the valuable services that helped grow your ARPU. That would be huge! So, how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app! A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great, but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called to Totogi that is going to help carriers build world-class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users. It's not the average order value. It's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user. That's the metric that matters. How many have you used that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top-up, or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences. Like Apple credit cards, no information required application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies. Like how Door Dash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings, because they do simple things, like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app, rather than forced you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. Hm, what do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder. While you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day, you have something that's 10 times better! You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network. 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to, your crappy, over customized, on-premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it, the public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi! Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network, and all the network interactions, into customer engagement. This is something that super apps don't have, but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focused to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying, massive cap ex investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps, with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day, and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100,000,000 into it. You heard me right. $100,000,000. Is this what it feels like to be SoftBank? I'm investing into Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage their network interactions into super app usage! Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience, and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those telco valuations will go from down here, (buzzes lips) to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts. And I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, "Click. Eh." Everyone says, no way. Telcos can't do it. Zero chance. Total goose egg. (egg cracking) One suggested I build a bonfire with a hundred million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well, I think those people are dead wrong! I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco, and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because Totogi takes the value of the network, and the power of the public cloud, to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focused guys, like the other telcos. Instead, you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors, they know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf, and make the customers want to choose you. You need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We'll have to give up the security blanket of the network, and change. Instead of NPS at the thirties, it needs to be in the seventies. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible! I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me, and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time, and I can't wait to see you there! >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier. Chloe Richardson's filling in for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her involving major action, major pump you up, punch in the face, "Wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here!" She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is, John, there's trillions of dollars on the table, and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in, and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> And it's not going to be, it's going to be a fight! Who will win? >> Who will win, but also who will build the next big thing? (John laughing) >> Someone needs to die in the media conversations. It's always a fight. Something's dead. Something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. Think what's happened is Telco's already acknowledged that they need to change. And the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple. They've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm. You've got all these new things. So, the chips are getting faster, and the software's more open source. And I'm telling you, the cloud is just going to drive that bus right down Cloud Street, and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peepin' on the board as it drives down. (John laughing) John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written, and one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me, what does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets, and growing markets, things behave differently, and certainly economics, and the people, and the makeup, and the mindset. So the telco has been kind of this mature market, it's been changing and growing, but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit. You know, to install a lot of cable, you got to get the rents out of that infrastructure. And that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market. And it's about building, not just operating. And you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together. Builders being software developers, new technology, and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking. But in a growth market, it's turbulent, and the ride might not be quiet, first-class ticket to paradise. It's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer? Are there parallels there? >> Yeah. I mean, there's a mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, replatform with the cloud, and then refactor your business! If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over, or go out of business. And that's what the telcos with all these assets, they're going to get bought, rolled into a SPAC, Special Purpose Acquisition Company, which is super hot in the United States. A lot of roll-ups going on with private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor, or replatform then refactor, they're going to be toast, and they're going to get rolled up, and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad, people, process, technology, and we think, process and technology really to the forefront here. But like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously, Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday, and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations, establishments. How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about? >> Yeah. I mean, education's huge, and this highlights the change that telco's now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around, and mobile was there. But once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So, you start to see people now aware of the value. And if you look at during COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses, and everyone survived because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad Zoom meetings here and there, and some teleconferences that didn't go well, but for the most part we survived, and they really saved everybody. So, they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education. People care about that stuff, so now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why the edge has got trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, "Oh, there's no jobs." Or, "I can't work." That's a bunch of BS, because you can just get online, get on YouTube, and just get a degree. You can get a degree. You can get an Amazon job. It pays a hundred thousand dollars a year! American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds, and be unemployed six months, and then be employed. So negative unemployment means, there's more jobs than people to fill them all, in fact. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that, because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in something, I think there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity. And there's such a skill shortage. There is nobody around to fill it! So it's an interesting problem to have, isn't it? Because it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades! And obviously, telco is in the same space. But what can we do about it do you think, to actually -- >> I think it's going to take leadership, and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university if they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money, if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there. But to me, it's the relationships, the mentorship. You're starting to see a women in tech, and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear courseware. Nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate, or degree, and accreditation, no problem. But the communities are out there, so that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that. And I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills. You can get that online, so why even go to school? So, people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also, even transferring. I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't they, so we could easily be talking to people from other industries, and bringing them into telco, and saying, "Look, bring what you know from your retail background, or your healthcare background, and help us at telco to, again, drive forwards." Just like DR was saying, it's all about the next big thing. >> Well, Danielle is always also driving a lot of change. And if you think about the jobs, and the pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy Leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to the school like that, and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now the jobs that are available weren't around five years ago, so there's no like pedigree or track record. There's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now, from a job standpoint, is people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy League, or the big degree, or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emerging and making things happen. Entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas! >> It's interesting you mention that, John, because we can't have more than five years experience in this space, we know that. But in telco, there is a problem. And maybe it's, again, it's a flipped problem where telco recruiters, or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> I think that's just, I mean I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening, one. But two, I think, you know, to be like a chip engineer, (laughs) you can't learn that online. But if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So, embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely paths you can specialize. Space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on. You see Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on a virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And you know, Danielle Royston always says, "What's going to happen first, Mars colony, or telco adopting public cloud?" And some people think Mars will happen first, but. >> What do you think, John? >> I think Telco's going to get cloud. I mean first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud, and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important, because it's an architectural beachhead. And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. So, the inside baseball, and the inside money, and all the investors are focusing on the edge, because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows, it's a public secret, and it's fun to watch everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah no, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So, it's an interesting flip. And I wonder if, with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development, this efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times, John. >> John: Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So, we're the hybrid CUBE, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. That is critical dynamic! And you're seeing it. Like virtual reality, for instance, now you're seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. You got, companies like Roblox went public recently. Metaverse. It's a good time to be in that business, because experiential human relations are coming. So, I think that's going to be powered by 5G. You know, gamers. So, all good stuff. Chloe, great to be with you here on theCUBE, and we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam, and the team. We're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City. And this is theCUBE, from Cloud City, back to you, Adam, and the studio.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks Adam in the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action. The keynotes are going on in the background, it's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante is on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City, with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and kicking it up day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting. I love what you guys have got over here, very fun. >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is. And also the Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> Know, I mean the atmosphere is absolutely palpable, isn't it? You can just feel as people walk in and see what the future looks like to the Telecoms industry, it's very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage. We've been really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. Actually the keynote is going on, we're going to have DR, maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that up. But let's check out this videotape of, this is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel and we'll be right back, we'll talk about it. (upbeat music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson's space at MWC21. And for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is the unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston or DR as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona. I'm here for MWC21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors and 70 demos to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience, we're going to talk about what's in store for the new network and the future of work. I'm really excited to create a community and invite awesome telco executives to see this new future. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get go we plan this amazing experience that we call, Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs and awesome vendors talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live, is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud hosted by John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests, focused on telco and the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco. And 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, I'm on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested a hundred million dollars in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market, this week at MWC. The first is a planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement coupling dual network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing, is a planetary scale BSS system built on top of the TM forum, open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show for. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco. I'm super excited to bring to you, the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona and virtually around the world. (upbeat music) >> Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks. Just roll on that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel. I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star and I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there. I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, really isn't. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world. She's innovative, she's exciting and if we've learned anything over the last 18 months is that we need to in this industry to grow and for the future of the industry. So, it's so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration. >> And I love the fact that she's so, takes a tiger by the tail, because the telco industry is being disrupted. She's just driving the bus here and I remember I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon web services, she was running the public sector and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player. And she was exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, whoa, what's going on here? >> And of course, it's always the way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time people thinking what's going, we don't like change, why are we being shaken up. But actually afterwards, in retrospect, they think, oh, okay, I see why that happened and we needed it. So really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here in theCUBE. Obviously the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you miss some of the action, this is, I'll see the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a Hybrid event. A lot of virtual action going on. So you got theCUBE virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites, but in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, what was happening around the show? Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're the main floor out here with Chloe Richardson, who is emceeing, hosting and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean, so far day one, I was watching your presentations and inspire site chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, I know for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage. And his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing and in 10 years it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So really interesting. I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great, everyone's excited, there's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content. It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. Really exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event. So since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry cause of COVID and people are glad to be here, but a lot of stuff's changed. >> Yeah, it's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed, digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years, we know that, but what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years? >> Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks and telecom, which is basically radios and wireless and then mobile. It's very global, a lot of networks, but now it's evolving and many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe because what's all the technology from the cloud players and from the chips, are getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So if you look at the chips, the hardware, it's less about the speeds and feeds. It's more about the consumer experience. You got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I'm like, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app, driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, if you order it you pick it up. So that's kind of can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. so a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry that is the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is that anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well I think the incumbents are going to lose their position. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. >> For sure. >> And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the company that's not, that you don't see. And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this. You saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. She just walked out there and she's not afraid. >> No. Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up and you can see as soon as she worked out. That is what she intends to do. >> I love her mojo, she's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Yep. >> I mean, even when apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash. When Steve Jobs brought back apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company. The iPad was a similar moment, then the iPhone and just the rest is history. That kind of disruption's coming. You're going to see that here. >> Yeah. Oh, it's exciting though isn't it? To be future ready rather than future proof but actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about why, as you're in MWS and Google Cloud? Why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot, hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity and it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. >> Okay. >> It's almost like global warming now. The icebergs are melting and it's going to just change and because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing. It's not like a better phone, it's a commercial app opportunity cause it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts or football games or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out, can't upload their pictures on Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them in the network. That's where 5G solves the problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth and that's going to bring the edge to life and that's money. So when you got money and greed and power changing hands, it's every, it's on the table and the wheel's spinning, and it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know. >> Yeah, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved. And I suppose it circles back to the fact that, DR is really leading the charge and they're probably thinking, okay, what's going on here? This is different, we want something new. You didn't know it's an open run or something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here constantly. I've mentioned open run. What is it all about John? Because why all the bars, if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we getting excited about it? >> That's a great thing. 5G certainly is Google Drive the main trend for sure. OpenRent is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation has been the driver for most of the open source software. So they're trying to bring software and open architectures to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware and around infrastructure because we need more infrastructure. We need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices that could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology and you want to minimize the licensing and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What if we look at, so on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Philippe Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud and within telco. So you just mentioned that. Open mind, it's all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easy, more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it a risk? >> I think that's going to increase the value of security and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in sense that could be explored by hackers, but it can be open to also protect. And I think we've seen open source and cloud in particular be more secure because everyone said, "Cloud is not secure, open source is not secure." And as it turns out when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security and threats. But actually I was speaking to some leaders in across various industries and particularly in tech. And they were saying, "Actually there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open source environment. We are able to track them and measure them and defend more efficiently. So actually they're being battered away, but the number is probably the same as it always was. We just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so do the threats. So on a net basis it's more because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look at it, there's money involved, they're organized, there's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank or ransomwares at an all time high. So this is like a big problem and it's beyond the government, it's our individual freedom. So security its huge and I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's again about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time but without collaboration that the industries aren't going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I just say in security, don't download that PDF if you don't know who came from. The fishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here on Mobile World Live, we're going to show this next segment and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience Chloe, for people who aren't here, right? >> Yeah. >> To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona and all the actions. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDr, but you can call me DR. Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time, let's do it. Holy shit. It sure is a great time to be a tech company. I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, DoorDash or Uber, life's pretty great. Just look at these stock prices over the past five years with their shareholder value going up into the right. Totally amazing. But where's telco? There I add our stocks to this awesome chart. Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, Tim, America Movil and Zain group. Huh, not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up. Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T and to Apple because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth, the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people. I get it, you have the security blanket, you're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street, to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things, but because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far you haven't had to. Every telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best, just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS, is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat and it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting, to WeChat, WhatsApp and the other OTT apps, but it is not just texting. The total adjustable market or term of the mobile app disruptors is huge. Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're a network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love. They look at every interaction with the customer and say, "How do we make the customer love this?" Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies, don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive they must make customers love them. So they focus on it in a big way and it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70 and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps and becoming customer centric. Retooling around the customer is a huge change. So let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples and drive big shareholder value just like the tech companies on that chart. Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies and a variety of categories vying for your subscriber's disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services, who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high evaluations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You. Hello. What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAAMs they throw around, you'll be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the CapEx, to build out the network, I say to myself, "Hell yeah, we should totally go do it and do whatever it takes to go get." For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focused started in rideshare, but then leverage its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with a valuable services that helped grow your ARPU, that would be huge. So how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app. A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called Totogi that is going to help carriers build world class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users, it's not the average order value, it's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user, that's the metric that matters. How many of you use that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top up or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences like Apple credit cards, no information required, application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies, like how DoorDash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings because they do simple things like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app rather than force you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. What do we do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder, why you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day. You have something that's 10 times better. You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to your crappy over customized on premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it. The public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network and all the network interactions into customer engagement. This is something the super apps don't have but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focus to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying massive CapEx investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100 million into it. You heard me right, $100 million. Is this what it feels like to be soft bank? I'm investing in Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage the network interactions into super app usage. Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those Telco valuations will go from down here to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts, and I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, click, everyone says, "No way, telcos can't do it." Zero chance, total goose egg. One suggested I build a bonfire with 100 million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well I think those people are dead wrong. I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing, the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because the Totogi takes the value of the network and the power of the public cloud to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focus guys like the other telcos, instead you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors. They know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf and make the customers want to choose you, you need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We will have to give up the security blanket of the network and change. Instead of NPS of the thirties, it needs to be in the 70s. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible. I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time and I can't wait to see you there. >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier, Chloe Richardson filling it for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her and while with major action, major pump me up, punch in the face, wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here. She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is John, there's trillions of dollars on the table and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> There's not going to be, it's going to be a fight, who will win. >> Who will win but also who will build the next big thing? >> Someone needs to die in the media conversation, it's always a fight, something's dead, something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. I think what's happened is, telco's already acknowledged that they need to change in the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple, they've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm, you've got all these new things. So the chips are getting faster and the software's more open source and I'm telling you, cloud is just going to drive that bus right down clouds street and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peeping on the board as it drives down. John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written. And one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me. What does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets and growing markets things behave differently and certainly economics and the people and the makeup and the mindset. >> Okay. >> So the telco has been kind of this mature market. It's been changing and growing but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit, you know, install a lot of cable. You got to get the rents out of that infrastructure and that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market, and it's about building, not just operating and you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together, builders being software developers, new technology and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. >> Okay. >> Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking, but in a growth market, it's turbulent and ride might not be quiet, first class ticket to paradise, but it's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer and the parallels? >> Yeah. I mean, the mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, re platform with the cloud and then refactor your business. If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over or go out of business. And that's what the telco with all these assets, they're going to get bought roll into a SPAC, special purpose acquisition company was a super hot in the United States. A lot of roll ups going on with Private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor or re platform, then refactor, they're going to be toast and they're going to get rolled up and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad. People process technology, and we think process and technology really take the forefront here but like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations establishments? How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about often? >> Yeah. I mean, education is huge and this highlights the change that telcos now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around and mobile was there, but once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So you start to see people now aware of the value and if you look at the, during the COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses and everyone was, survive because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad zoom meetings here and there and some teleconferences that didn't go well but for the most part we survived and they really saved everybody, my goodness. So they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education, people care about that stuff. So now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why The Edge has checked trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, oh, there's no jobs or I can't work, that's a bunch of BS because you can just get online, get on YouTube and just get a degree. You can get a degree, you can get an Amazon job, it pays a hundred thousand dollars a year, American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds and be unemployed six months and then be employed. So negative unemployment means there's more jobs than people to fill them qualify. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in some of the things there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity and there's such a skill shortage, there is nobody around to fill it. So it's an interesting problem to have isn't it? Cause it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades and obviously telco is in the same space. What can we do about it? Do you think it will actually bring people in? >> I think it's going to take leadership and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university, they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there, but to me it's the relationships, the mentorship. You starting to see women in tech and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear course where nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate or degree and accreditation no problem, but communities are out there. So that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that and I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills, you can get that online. So why even go to school? So people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also even transferring, I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't there? So we could easily be talking to people from other industries and bringing them into telco and saying, look, bring what you know from your retail background or your healthcare background and help us at telco to again, drive forward, just like DR is saying it's all about the next big thing. >> Danielle, I was also driving a lot of change and if you think about the jobs and a pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to a school like that and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now, the jobs that are available, weren't around five years ago. So there's no like pedigree or track record, there's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now is, from a job standpoint is, people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy league or the big degree or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emergent and make things happen, entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas. >> It's interesting you mentioned that John, because we can have more than five years experience in this space, we know that but in telco there is a problem and maybe it's, again it's a flipped problem where, telco recruiters or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> Well, I mean, I think that's just, I mean, I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening one, but two, I think, you know, you've got to be like a chip engineer, you can't learn that online, but if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely parts, you can specialize, space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on, obviously Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And, you know, Danielle Royston always says, who's going to happen first, Mars, colony, or telco adopting public cloud? Some people think Mars will happen first but. >> What do you think John? >> I think telco's going to get cloud. I mean, first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important because it's an architectural beachhead. >> Yeah. >> And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. >> Of course. >> So the inside baseball and the inside money and all the investors are focusing on the edge because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows it's a public secret and it's fun to watch, everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah, know, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So it's an interesting flip and I wonder if with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development its efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times John. >> Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So it's, we're the hybrid cube, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. >> Yeah. >> That is critical dynamic, and you seeing it. Like virtual reality for instance, now you seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. >> Exactly. >> You got, like Roblox went public recently. >> Yeah. >> Metaverse is a good time to be in that business because experiential human relations are coming. So I think that's going to be powered by 5G, you know, gamers. So all good stuff, Chloe, great to be with you here in theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam and the team, we're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City and this is theCUBE, from Cloud City back to you, Adam in the studio.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, we're back. This is Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good. A program on Cuba 3 65 made possible by on shape of BTC company. We're live today really live TV, which is the heritage of the Cuban. Now we're gonna go to the sources and talkto on shape customers to find out how they're applying technology to create real world innovations that are changing the world. So let me introduce our panel members. Rafael Gomez Fribourg is with the Chan Zuckerberg bio hub. A very big idea. And collaborative nonprofit was initiative that was funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan, and really around diagnosing and curing and better managing infectious diseases. So really timely topic. Philip Tabor is also joining us. He's with silver side detectors which develops neutron detective detection systems. Yet you want to know if early if neutrons and radiation or in places where you don't want them, so this should be really interesting. And last but not least, Matthew Shields is with the Charlottesville schools and is gonna educate us on how he and his team are educating students in the use of modern engineering tools and techniques. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cuban to the program. This should be really interesting. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi. Or pleasure >>for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay, let me ask each of you because you're all doing such interesting and compelling work. Let's start with Rafael. Tell us more about the bio hub and your role there, please. >>Okay. Yes. As you said, the Bio Hope is a nonprofit research institution, um, funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan. Um and our main mission is to develop new technologies to help advance medicine and help, hopefully cure and manage diseases. Um, we also have very close collaborations with Universe California, San Francisco, Stanford University and the University California Berkeley on. We tried to bring those universities together, so they collaborate more of biomedical topics. And I manage a team of engineers in by joining platform. Um, and we're tasked with creating instruments for the laboratory to help the scientist boats inside the organization and also in the partner universities do their experiments in better ways in ways that they couldn't do before >>in this edition was launched five years ago. It >>was announced at the end of 2016, and we actually started operations in the beginning of 2017, which is when I joined um, so this is our third year. >>And how's how's it going? How does it work? I mean, these things >>take time. It's been a fantastic experience. Uh, the organization works beautifully. Um, it was amazing to see it grow from the beginning. I was employee number 12, I think eso When I came in, it was just a nem p off his building and MP labs. And very quickly we had something running about from anything. Eso I'm very proud of the work that we have done to make that possible. Um And then, of course, that's you mentioned now, with co vid, um, we've been able to do a lot of very cool work, um, very being of the pandemic In March, when there was a deficit of testing, uh, capacity in California, we spun up a testing laboratory in record time in about a week. It was crazy. It was a crazy project. Um, but but incredibly satisfying. And we ended up running all the way until the beginning of November, when the lab was finally shut down, we could process about 3000 samples a day. I think at the end of it all, we were able to test about 100 on the road, 150,000 samples from all over the state. We were providing free testing toe all of the Department of Public Health Department of Public Health in California, which, at the media pandemic, had no way to do testing affordably and fast. So I think that was a great service to the state. Now the state has created a testing system that will serve those departments. So then we decided that it was unnecessary to keep going with testing in the other biopsy that would shut down, >>right? Thank you for that. Now, Now, Philip, you What you do is mind melting. You basically helped keep the world safe. Maybe you describe a little bit more about silver side detectors and what your role is there and how it all works. >>Tour. So we make a nuclear bomb detectors and we also make water detectors. So we try and do our part. Thio Keep the world from blowing up and make it a better place at the same time. Both of these applications use neutron radiation detectors. That's what we make. Put them out by a port border crossing Places like that they can help make sure that people aren't smuggling, shall we say, very bad things. Um, there's also a burgeoning field of research and application where you can use neutrons with some pretty cool physics to find water so you can do things like but a detector up in the mountains and measure snowpack. Put it out in the middle of the field and measure soil moisture content. And as you might imagine, there's some really cool applications in, uh, research and agronomy and public policy for this. >>All right, so it's OK, so it's It's much more than you know, whatever fighting terrorism, it's there's a riel edge, or I kind of i o t application for what you guys do. >>You do both Zito shares. You might >>say a mat. I I look at your role is kind of scaling the brain power for for the future. Maybe tell us more about Charlottesville schools and in the mission that you're pursuing and what you do. >>Thank you. Um, I've been in Charlottesville city schools for about 11 or 12 years. I started their teaching, Um, a handful of classes, math and science and things like that. But Thescore board and my administration had the crazy idea of starting an engineering program about seven years ago. My background is an engineering is an engineering. My masters is in mechanical and aerospace engineering. And, um, I basically spent a summer kind of coming up with what might be a fun engineering curriculum for our students. And it started with just me and 30 students about seven years ago, Um, kind of a home spun from scratch curriculum. One of my goals from the outside was to be a completely project based curriculum, and it's now grown. We probably have about six or 700 students, five or six full time teachers. We now have pre engineering going on at the 5th and 6th grade level. I now have students graduating. Uh, you know, graduating after senior year with, like, seven years of engineering under their belt and heading off to doing some pretty cool stuff. So it's It's been a lot of fun building up a program and, um, and learning a lot in the process. >>That's awesome. I mean, you know, Cuba's. We've been passionate about things like women in tech, uh, diversity stem. You know, not only do we need more more students in stem, we need mawr underrepresented women, minorities, etcetera. We were just talking to John her stock and integrate Grayson about this is do you do you feel is though you're I mean, first of all, the work that you do is awesome, but but I'll go one step further. Do you feel as though it's reaching, um, or, you know, diverse base and And how is that going? >>That's a great question. I think research shows that a lot of people get funneled into one kind of track or career path or set of interests really early on in their educational career. And sometimes that that funnels kind of artificial. And so that's one of the reasons we keep pushing back. Um, so our school systems introducing kindergartners to programming on DSO. We're trying to push back how we expose students to engineering and to stem fields as early as possible, and we've definitely seen the fruits of that in my program. In fact, my engineering program, uh, sprung out of an after school in Extracurricular Science Club that actually three girls started at our school. So I think that actually has helped that three girls started the club That eventually is what led our engineering programs that sort of baked into the DNA and also are a big public school. And we have about 50% of the students are under the poverty line, and we should I mean, Charlottesville, which is a big refugee town. And so I've been adamant from Day one that there are no barriers to entry into the program. There's no test you have to take. You don't have to have be taking a certain level of math or anything like that. That's been a lot of fun. To have a really diverse set of kids and or the program and be successful, >>that's phenomenal. That's great to hear. So, Philip, I wanna come back to you. You know, I think about maybe some day we'll be able to go back to a sporting events, and I know when I when I'm in there, there's somebody up on the roof looking out for me, you know, watching the crowd. And they have my back. And I think in many ways, the products that you build, you know, our similar I may not know they're there, but they're keeping us safe or they're measuring things that that that I don't necessarily see. But I wonder if you could talk about a little bit more detail about the products you build and how they're impacting society. >>Sure, So there are certainly a lot of people who are who are watching, trying to make sure things were going well in keeping you safe that you may or may not be aware of. And we try and support ah lot of them. So we have detectors that are that are deployed in a variety of variety of uses with a number of agencies and governments that dio like I was saying, ports and border crossing some other interesting applications that are looking for looking for signals that should not be there and working closely to fit into the operations these folks do Onda. We also have ah lot of outreach to researchers and scientists trying to help them support the work they're doing, um, using neutron detection for soil moisture monitoring is a some really cool opportunities for doing it at large scale and with much less, um, expense or complication then would have been done previous technologies. Mhm. You know, they were talking about collaboration in the previous segment. We've been able to join a number of conferences for that, virtually including one that was supposed to be held in Boston. But another one that was held, uh, of the University of Heidelberg in Germany. And, uh, this is sort of things that in some ways, the pandemic is pushing people towards greater collaboration than there would have been able to do. Had it all but in person. >>Yeah, we did. Uh, the cube did live works a couple years ago in Boston. It was awesome show. And I think, you know, with this whole trend toward digit, I call it the forced march to digital. Thanks to cove it I think that's just gonna continue. Thio grow Raphael one. If you could describe the process that you used to better understand diseases and what's your organization's involvement? Been in more detail, addressing the cove in pandemic. >>Um, so so we have the bio be structured in, Um um, in a way that foster So the combination of technology and science. So we have to scientific tracks, one about infectious diseases and the other one about understanding just basic human biology how the human body functions and especially how the cells in the human body function on how they're organized to create teachers in the body. Um, and then it has the set of platforms. Um, mind is one of them by engineering that are all technology. Read it. So we have data science platform, all about data analysis, machine learning, things like that. Um, we have a mass spectrometry platform is all about mass spectrometry technologies to, um, exploit those ones in service for the scientists on. We have a genomics platform. That is all about sequencing DNA in our DNA. Um, and then an advanced microscopy. It's all about developing technologies, uh, to look at things with advanced microscopes and the little technologies to marry computation on microscope. So, um, the scientists said the agenda and the platforms we just serve their needs, support their needs, and hopefully develop technologies that help them do their experiments better, faster, or allow them to the experiment that they couldn't do in any other way before. Um And so with cove, it because we have that very strong group of scientists that work on. I have been working on infectious disease before, and especially in viruses, we've been able to very quickly pivot to working on that s O, for example, my team was able to build pretty quickly a machine to automatically purified proteins, and it's being used to purify all these different important proteins in the cove. It virus the SARS cov to virus on Dwyer, sending some of those purified proteins all over the world. Two scientists that are researching the virus and trying to figure out how to develop vaccines, understand how the virus affects the body and all that. So some of the machines we built are having a very direct impact on this. Um, Also for the copy testing lab, we were able to very quickly develop some very simple machines that allowed the lab to function sort of faster and more efficiently. Sort of had a little bit of automation in places where we couldn't find commercial machines that would do it. >>Um, God s o mat. I mean, you gotta be listening to this in thinking about, Okay? Some. Someday your students are gonna be working at organizations like Like like Bio Hub and Silver Side. And you know, a lot of young people that just have I don't know about you guys, but like my kids, they're really passionate about changing the world. You know, there's way more important than, you know, the financial angles and that z e I gotta believe you're seeing that you're right in the front lines there. >>Really? Um, in fact, when I started the curriculum six or seven years ago, one of the first bits of feedback I got from my students is they said Okay, this is a lot of fun. So I had my students designing projects and programming microcontrollers raspberry, PiS and order We nose and things like that. The first bit of feedback I got from students was they said Okay, when do we get to impact the world? I've heard engineering is about making the world a better place, and robots are fun and all, but, you know, where is the real impact? And so, um do Yeah, thanks to the guidance of my students, I'm baking that Maurin. Now I'm like Day one of engineering one. We talk about how the things that the tools they're learning and the skills they're gaining eventually you know, very soon could be could be used to make the world a better place. >>You know, we all probably heard that famous line By Jeff Hammond Barker. The greatest minds of my generation are trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads. E. I think we're really generally generationally finally, at the point where you know young students and engineering and really you know it passionate about affecting society. I wanna get into the product, you know, side and understand how each of you are using on shape and and the value that that it brings. Maybe Raphael, you could start how long you've been using it. You know, what's your experience with it? Let's let's start there. >>I begin for about two years, and I switched to it with some trepidation. You know, I was used to always using the traditional product that you have to install on your computer, that everybody uses that. So I was kind of locked into that, but I started being very frustrated with the way it worked, um, and decided to give on ship chance. Which reputation? Because any change always, you know, causes anxiety. But very quickly my engineers started loving it. Uh, just because it's it's first of all, the learning curve wasn't very difficult at all. You can transfer from one from the traditional product to entree very quickly and easily. You can learn all the concepts very, very fast. It has all the functionality that we needed, and and what's best is that it allows to do things that we couldn't do before or we couldn't do easily. Um, now we can access the our cat documents from anywhere in the world. Um, so when we're in the lab fabricating something or testing a machine, any computer we have next to us or a tablet or on iPhone, we can pull it up and look at the cad and check things or make changes that something that couldn't do before because before you had to pay for every installation off the software for the computer, and I couldn't afford to have 20 installations to have some computers with the cat ready to use them like once every six months would have been very inefficient. So we love that part. And the collaboration features are fantastic. Especially now with Kobe, that we have to have all the remote meetings, eyes fantastic, that you can have another person drive the cad while the whole team is watching that person change the model and do things and point to things that is absolutely revolutionary. We love it. The fact that you have very, very sophisticated version control before it was always a challenge asking people, please, if you create anniversary and apart, how do we name it so that people find it? And then you end up with all these collection of files with names that nobody remembers, what they are, the person left and now nobody knows which version is the right one m s with on shape on the version ING system it has, and the fact that you can go back in history off the document and go back to previous version so easily and then go back to the press and version and explore the history of the part that is truly, um, just world changing for us, that we can do that so easily on for me as a manager to manage this collection of information that is critical for our operations. It makes it so much easier because everything is in one place. I don't have to worry about file servers that go down that I have to administer that have to have I t taken care off that have to figure how to keep access to people to those servers when they're at home. And they need a virtual private network and all of that mess disappears. I just simply give give a personal account on shape. And then, magically, they have access to everything in the way I want. And we can manage the lower documents and everything in a way, that is absolutely fantastic. >>Rafael, what was your what? What were some of the concerns you had mentioned? You had some trepidation. Was it a performance? Was it security? You know, some of the traditional cloud stuff and I'm curious as to how How whether any of those act manifested were they really that you had to manage? What were your concerns? >>Look, the main concern is how long is it going to take for everybody in the team? to learn to use the system like it and buy into it because I don't want to have my engineers using tools against their will write. I want everybody to be happy because that's how they're productive. They're happy and they enjoyed the tools they have. That was my main concern. I was a little bit worried about the whole concept of not having the files in a place where I couldn't quote unquote seat in some serving on site, but that that's kind of an outdated concept, right? So that took a little bit of a mind shift. But very quickly. Then I started thinking, Look, I have a lot of documents on Google Drive like I don't worry about that. Why would I worry about my cat on on shape? Right is the same thing. So I just needed to sort of put things in perspective that way. Um, the other, um, you know, their concern was the learning curve right is like how is he will be for everybody to and for me to learn it on whether it had all of the features that we needed and there were a few features that I actually discussed with, um uh, Cody at on shape on. They were actually awesome about using their scripting language in on shape to sort of mimic some of the features of the old cat, uh, in on shaped in a way that actually works even better than the old system. So it was It was amazing. Yeah. >>Great. Thank you for that, Phillip. What's your experience been? Maybe you could take us through your journey with on shape? >>Sure. So we've been we've been using on shaped Silver Side for coming up on about four years now, and we love it. We're very happy with it. We have a very modular product line, so and we make anything from detectors that would go into backpacks? Two vehicles, two very large things that a shipping container would go through and saw. Excuse me. Shape helps us to track and collaborate faster on the design, have multiple people working a same time on a project. And it also helps us to figure out if somebody else comes to us and say, Hey, I want something new. How we congrats modules from things that we already have. Put them together and then keep track of the design development and the different branches and ideas that we have, how they all fit together. A za design comes together and it's just been fantastic from a mechanical engineering background. I will also say that having used a number of different systems and solid works was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Before I got using on shape, I went, Wow, this is amazing. And I really don't want to design in any other platform after after getting on Lee a little bit familiar with it. >>You know, it's funny, right? I will have the speed of technology progression. I was explaining to some young guns the other day how e used to have a daytime er and that was my life. And if I lost that day, timer, I was dead. And I don't know how we weigh existed without, you know, Google Maps. Eso did we get anywhere? I don't know, but, uh, but so So, Matt, you know, it's interesting to think about, um, you know, some of the concerns that Raphael brought up, you hear? For instance, you know, all the time. Wow. You know, I get my Amazon bill at the end of the month It's through the roof in. But the reality is that Yeah, well, maybe you are doing more, but you're doing things that you couldn't have done before. And I think about your experience in teaching and educating. I mean, you so much more limited in terms of the resource is that you would have had to be able to educate people. So what's your experience been with With on shape and what is it enabled? >>Um, yeah, it was actually talking before we went with on shape. We had a previous CAD program and I was talking to my vendor about it, and he let me know that we were actually one of the biggest CAD shops in the state. Because if you think about it a really big program, you know, really big company might employ 5, 10, 15, 20 cad guys, right? I mean, when I worked for a large defense contractor, I think there were probably 20 of us as the cad guys. I now have about 300 students doing cat. So there's probably more students with more hours of cat under their belt in my building than there were when I worked for the big defense contractor. Um, but like you mentioned, uh, probably our biggest hurdle is just re sources. And so we want We want one of things I've always prided myself and trying to do in this programs provide students with access two tools and skills that they're going to see either in college or in the real world. So it's one of the reason we went with a big professional cad program. There are, you know, sort of k 12 oriented software and programs and things. But, you know, I want my kids coding and python and using slack and using professional type of tools on DSO when it comes to cat. That's just that that was a really hurt. I mean, you know, you could spend $30,000 on one seat of, you know, professional level cad program, and then you need a $30,000 computer to run it on if you're doing a heavy assemblies, Um, and so one of my dreams and it was always just a crazy dream. And I was the way I would always pitcher in my school system and say someday I'm gonna have a kid on a school issued chromebook in subsidized housing on public WiFi doing professional level bad and that that was a crazy statement until a couple of years ago. So we're really excited that I literally and, you know, march in, um, you said the forced march the forced march into, you know, modernity, March 13th kids sitting in my engineering lab that we spent a lot of money on doing. Cad March 14th. Those kids were at home on their school shoot chromebooks on public WiFi, uh, keeping their designs going and collaborating. And then, yeah, I could go on and on about some of the things you know, the features that we've learned since then they're even better. So it's not like this is some inferior, diminished version of the cat. And there's so much about it, E >>wanna I wanna ask you that I may be over my skis on this, but we're seeing we're starting to see the early days of the democratization of CAD and product design. It is the the citizen engineer. I mean, maybe insulting to the engineers in the room, but but is that we're beginning to see that >>I have to believe that everything moves into the cloud. Part of that is democratization that I don't need. I can whether you know, I think artists, you know, I could have a music studio in my basement with a nice enough software package. And Aiken, I could be a professional for now. My wife's a photographer. I'm not allowed to say that I could be a professional photographer with, you know, some cloud based software. And so, yeah, I do think that's part of what we're seeing is more and more technology is moving to the cloud >>Philip or Rafael anything. Your dad, >>I think I mean yeah, that that that combination of cloud based cat and then three D printing that is becoming more and more affordable on ubiquitous It's truly transformative, and I think for education is fantastic. I wish when I was a kid I had the opportunity to play with those kinds of things because I was always the late things. But, you know, the in a very primitive way. So, um, I think there's a dream for kids Thio to be able to do this. And, um, yeah, there's so many other technologies coming on, like Arduino and all of these electronic things that live. Kids play at home very cheaply with things that back in my day would have been unthinkable. >>So we know there's a go ahead. Philip Way >>had a pandemic and silver site moved to a new manufacturing facility this year. I was just on the shop floor, talking with contractors, standing 6 ft apart, pointing at things. But through it all, our CAD system was completely unruffled. Nothing stopped in our development work. Nothing stopped in our support for existing systems in the field. We didn't have to think about it. We had other server issues, but none with our, you know, engineering cad, platform and product development and support world right ahead, which was cool, but also a That's point. I think it's just really cool what you're doing with the kids. The most interesting secondary and college level engineering work that I did was project based. It's an important problem to the world. Go solve it and that is what we do here. That is what my entire career has been. And I'm super excited to see See what your students are gonna be doing, uh, in there home classrooms on their chromebooks now and what they do. Building on that. >>Yeah, I'm super excited to see your kids coming out of college with engineering degrees because yeah, I think that project based experience is so much better than just sitting in a classroom, taking notes and doing math problems on. And I think he will give the kids a much better flavor What engineering is really about. Think a lot of kids get turned off by engineering because they think it's kind of dry because it's just about the math for some very abstract abstract concept, and they are there. But I think the most important thing is just that. Hands on a building and the creativity off, making things that you can touch that you can see that you can see functioning. >>Great. So you know, we all know the relentless pace of technology progression. So when you think about when you're sitting down with the folks that on shape and there the customer advisor for one of the things that you want on shape to do that it doesn't do today >>I could start by saying, I just love some of the things that does do because it's such a modern platform and I think some of these, uh, some some platforms that have a lot of legacy and a lot of history behind them. I think we're dragging some of that behind them. So it's cool to see a platform that seemed to be developed in a modern era. And so that's, you know, it is the Google docks. And so the fact that collaboration and version ing and link sharing is, and, like, platform agnostic abilities the fact that that seems to be just built into the nature of the thing so far, that's super exciting as far as things that it to go from there, Um, I don't know. >>Other than price, >>you can't say I >>can't say lower price. >>Yeah, so far on a PTC s that worked with us. Really well, so I'm not complaining. There. You there? >>Yeah. Yeah. No Gaps, guys. Whitespace, Come on. >>We've been really enjoying the three week update Cadence. You know, there's a new version every three weeks and we don't have to install it. We just get all the latest and greatest goodies. One of the trends that we've been following and enjoying is the the help with a revision management and release work flows. Um, and I know that there's more than on shape is working on that we're very excited for, because that's a big important part about making real hardware and supporting it in the field. Um, something that was cool. They just integrated Cem markup capability In the last release that took, we were doing that anyway, but we were doing it outside of on shapes, and now we get to streamline our workflow and put it in the CAD system where we're making those changes anyway, when we're reviewing drawings and doing this kind of collaboration. And so I think from our perspective, we continue to look forward toa further progress on that. There's a lot of capability in the cloud that I think they're just kind of scratching the surface on you. >>I would. I mean, you're you're asking to knit. Pick. I would say one of the things that I would like to see is is faster regeneration speed. There are a few times with comics necessities that regenerating the document takes a little longer than I would like to. It's not a serious issue, but anyway, I'm being spoiled, >>you know. That's good. I've been doing this a long time and I like toe Ask that question of practitioners and to me, it it's a signal like when you're nit picking and that you're struggling to knit. Pick that to me is a sign of a successful product. And And I wonder, I don't know, uh, have the deep dive into the architecture, But are things like alternative processors? You're seeing them hit the market in a big way. Uh, you know, maybe a helping address the challenge, But I'm gonna ask you the big, chewy question now, then would maybe go to some audience questions when you think about the world's biggest problems. I mean, we're global pandemics. Obviously top of mind. You think about nutrition, you know, feeding the global community. We've actually done a pretty good job of that. But it's not necessarily with the greatest nutrition climate change, alternative energy, the economic divides. You've got geopolitical threats and social unrest. Health care is a continuing problem. What's your vision for changing the world and how product innovation for good can be applied to some of the the problems that that you all are passionate about? Big question. But who wants toe start >>not biased. But for years I've been saying that if you want to solve the economy, the environment, uh, global unrest, pandemics education is the case If you wanna if you want to, um, make progress in those in those realms, I think funding funding education is probably gonna pay off pretty well. >>Absolutely. And I think stem is key to that. I mean, all of the, ah lot of the well being that we have today and then industrialized countries, thanks to science and technology, right, improvements in health care, improvements in communication, transportation, air conditioning. Um, every aspect of life is touched by science and technology. So I think having more kids studying and understanding that is absolutely key. Yeah, I agree, >>Philip, you got anything they had? >>I think there's some big technical problems in the world today, Raphael and ourselves there certainly working on a couple of them. Think they're also collaboration problems and getting everybody doing ableto pull together instead of pulling, pulling separately and to be able to spur the idea is onwards. So that's where I think the education side is really exciting. What Matt is doing and and it just kind of collaboration in general when we could do provide tools to help people do good work? Uh, that is, I think, valuable. >>Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And along those lines, we have some projects that are about creating very low cost instruments for low research settings places in Africa, Southeast Asia, South America so that they can do, um, um, biomedical research that it's difficult to do in those place because they don't have the money to buy the fancy lab machines that cost $30,000 an hour. Um, so we're trying to sort of democratize some of those instruments. And I think thanks to tools like Kahn shaped and is easier, for example, to have a conversation with somebody in Africa and show them the design that we have and discuss the details of it with them. Andi, that's amazing. Right? To have somebody you know, 10 time zones away, Um, looking really life in real time with you about your design and discussing the details or teaching them how to build a machine. Right? Because, um, you know, they have a three d printer. You can you just give them the design and say, like, you build it yourself, uh, even cheaper than and, you know, also billing and shipping it there. Um, so all that that that aspect of it is also so super important, I think, for any of these efforts to improve, um, some of the hardest part was in the world from climate change. Do you say, as you say, poverty, nutrition issues? Um, you know, availability of water. You have that project at about finding water. Um, if we can also help deploy technologies that teach people remotely how to create their own technologies or how to build their own systems that will help them solve those forms locally. I think that's very powerful. >>Yeah, that point about education is right on. I think some people in the audience may be familiar with the work of Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee, the second machine age where they sort of put forth the premise that, uh, is it laid it out. Look, for the first time in history, machines air replacing humans from a cognitive perspective. Machines have always replaced humans, but that's gonna have an impact on jobs. But the answer is not toe protect the past from the future. Uh, the answer is education and public policy. That really supports that. So I couldn't agree more. I think it's a really great point. Um, we have We do have some questions from the audience. If if we can. If I can ask you guys, um, you know, this one kind of stands out. How do you see artificial intelligence? I was just talking about machine intelligence. Um, how do you see that? Impacting the design space guys trying to infuse a I into your product development. What can you tell me? >>Um, absolutely. Like, we're using AI for some things, including some of these very low cost instruments that will hopefully help us diagnose certain diseases, especially this is that are very prevalent in the Third World. Um, and some of those diagnostics are these days done by thes armies of technicians that are trained to look under the microscope. But, um, that's a very slow process. Is very error prone and having machine learning systems that can, to the same diagnosis faster, cheaper and also little machines that can be taken to very remote places to these villages that have no access to a fancy microscope to look at a sample from a patient that's very powerful, and I we don't do this. But I have read quite a bit about how certain places air, using a Tribune attorneys to actually help them optimize designs for parts. So you get these very interesting looking parts that you would have never thought off. A person would have never thought off, but that are incredibly light ink earlier strong and I have all sort of properties that are interesting thanks to artificial intelligence machine learning in particular, >>yet another, uh, advantage you get when when your work is in the cloud I've seen. I mean, there's just so many applications that so if the radiology scan is in the cloud and the radiologist is goes to bed at night, radiologist could come in in the morning and and say, Oh, the machine while you were sleeping was using artificial intelligence to scan these 40,000 images. And here's the five that we picked out that we think you should take a closer look at or like Raphael said. I can design my part. My, my, my, my, my you know, mount or bracket or whatever and go to sleep. And then I wake up in the morning. The machine has improved. It for me has made it strider strider stronger and lighter. Um And so just when your when your work is in the cloud, that's just that's a really cool advantage that you get that you can have machines doing some of your design work for you. >>Yeah, we've been watching, uh, you know, this week is this month, I guess is aws re invent and it's just amazing to see how much effort is coming around machine learning machine intelligence. You know, Amazon has sage maker Google's got, you know, embedded you no ML and big query. Certainly Microsoft with Azure is doing tons of stuff and machine learning. I think the point there is that that these things will be infused in tow R and D and in tow software products by the vendor community. And you all will apply that to your business and and build value through the unique data that your collecting you know, in your ecosystems. And and that's how you add value. You don't have to be necessarily, you know, developers of artificial intelligence, but you have to be practitioners to apply that. Does that make sense to you, Philip? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think your point about value is really well chosen. We see AI involved from the physics simulations all the way up to interpreting radiation data, and that's where the value question, I think, is really important because it's is the output of the AI giving helpful information that the people that need to be looking at it. So if it's curating a serious of radiation alert, saying, Hey, like these are the anomalies you need to look at eyes it, doing that in a way that's going to help a good response on. In some cases, the II is only as good as the people. That sort of gave it a direction and turn it loose. And you want to make sure that you don't have biases or things like that underlying your AI that air going to result in, uh in less than helpful outcomes coming from it. So we spend quite a lot of time thinking about how do we provide the right outcomes to people who are who are relying on our systems? >>That's a great point, right? Humans, air biased and humans build models, so models are inherently biased. But then software is hitting the market. That's gonna help us identify those biases and help us, you know? Of course. Correct. So we're entering Cem some very exciting times, guys. Great conversation. I can't thank you enough for spending the time with us and sharing with our audience the innovations that you're bringing to help the world. So thanks again. >>Thank you so much. >>Thank you. >>Okay. You're welcome. Okay. When we come back, John McElheny is gonna join me. He's on shape. Co founder. And he's currently the VP of strategy at PTC. He's gonna join the program. We're gonna take a look at what's next and product innovation. I'm Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader. Digital technology event coverage. We'll be right back

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of Dell Technologies World Digital Experience. Brought to you by Dell Technologies. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with theCUBE coming to you from our Palo Altos studios with continuing coverage of the Dell Technology World 2020, The Digital Experience. We've been covering this for over 10 years. It's virtual this year, but still have a lot of great content, a lot of great announcements, and a lot of technology that's being released and talked about. So we're excited. We're going to dig a little deep with our next two guests. First of all we have Paul Perez. He is the SVP and CTO of infrastructure solutions group for Dell technologies. Paul's great to see you. Where are you coming in from today? >> Austin, Texas. >> Austin Texas Awesome. And joining him returning to theCUBE on many times, Kit Colbert. He is the Vice President and CTO of VMware cloud for VMware Kit great to see you as well. Where are you joining us from? >> Yeah, thanks for having me again. I'm here in San Francisco. >> Awesome. So let's jump into it and talk about project Monterrey. You know, it's funny I was at Intel back in the day and all of our passwords used to go out and they became like the product names. It's funny how these little internal project names get a life of their own and this is a big one. And, you know, we had Pat Gelsinger on a few weeks back at VM-ware talking about how significant this is and kind of this evolution within the VMware cloud development. And, you know, it's kind of past Kubernetes and past Tanzu and past project Pacific and now we're into project Monterey. So first off, let's start with Kit, give us kind of the basic overview of what is project Monterey. >> Yep. Yeah, well, you're absolutely right. What we did last year, we announced project Pacific, which was really a fundamental rethinking of VMware cloud foundation with Kubernetes built in right. Kubernetes is still a core to core part of the architecture and the idea there was really to better support modern applications to enable developers and IT operations to come together to work collaboratively toward modernizing a company's application fleet. And as you look at companies starting to be successful, they're starting to run these modern applications. What you found is that the hardware architecture itself needed to evolve, needed to update, to support all the new requirements brought on by these modern apps. And so when you're looking at project Monterey, it's exactly that it's a rethinking of the VMware cloud foundation, underlying hardware architecture. And so you think about a project model or excuse me, product Pacific is really kind of the top half if you will, Kubernetes consumption experiences great for applications. Project Monterey comes along as the second step in that journey, really being the bottom half, fundamentally rethinking the hardware architecture and leveraging SmartNic technology to do that. >> It's pretty interesting, Paul, you know, there's a great shift in this whole move from, you know, infrastructure driving applications to applications driving infrastructure. And then we're seeing, you know, obviously the big move with big data. And again, I think as Pat talked about in his interview with NVIDIA being at the right time, at the right place with the right technology and this, you know, kind of groundswell of GPU, now DPU, you know, helping to move those workloads beyond just kind of where the CPU used to do all the work, this is even, you know, kind of taking it another level you guys are the hardware guys and the solutions guys, as you look at this kind of continuing evolution, both of workloads as well as their infrastructure, how does this fit in? >> Yeah, well, how all this fit it in is modern applications and modern workloads, require a modern infrastructure, right? And a Kit was talking about the infrastructure overlay. That VMware is awesome at that all being, I was coming at this from the emerging data centric workloads, and some of the implications for that, including Phillip and diversity has ever been used for computing. The need to this faculty could be able to combine maybe resources together, as opposed to trying to shoehorn something into a mechanical chassis. And, and if you do segregate, you have to be able to compose on demand. And when you start comparing those, we realized that we were humping it up on our conversion trajectory and we started to team up and partner. >> So it's interesting because part of the composable philosophy, if you will, is to, you know, just to break the components of compute store and networking down to a small pieces as possible, and then you can assemble the right amount when you need it to attack a particular problem. But when you're talking about it's a whole different level of, of bringing the right hardware to bear for the solution. When you talk about SmartNics and you talk about GPS in DPS data processing units, you're now starting to offload and even FPG is that some of these other things offload a lot of work from the core CPU to some of these more appropriate devices that said, how do people make sure that the right application ends up on the right infrastructure? This is that I'm, if it's appropriate using more of a, of a Monterey based solution versus more of a traditional one, depending on the workload, how is that going to get all kind of sorted out and, and routed within the actual cloud infrastructure itself? That was probably back to you a Kit? >> Yeah, sure. So I think it's important to understand kind of what a smart NIC is and how it works in order to answer that question, because what we're really doing is to kind of jump right to it. I guess it's, you know, giving an API into the infrastructure and this is how we're able to do all the things that you just mentioned, but what does a SmartNic? Well, SmartNic is essentially a NIC with a general purpose CPU on it, really a whole CPU complex, in fact, kind of a whole system on server right there on that, on that Nic. And so what that enables is a bunch of great things. So first of all, to your point, we can do a lot of offload. We can actually run ESX. >> SXI on that. Nic, we can take a lot of the functionality that we were doing before on the main server CPU, things like network virtualization, storage, virtualization, security functionality, we can move that all off on the Nic. And it makes a lot of sense because really what we're doing when we're doing all those things is really looking at different sort of IO data paths. You know, as, as the network traffic comes through looking at doing automatic load balancing firewall and for security, delivering storage, perhaps remotely. And so the NIC is actually a perfect place to place all of these functionalities, right? You can not only move it off the core server CPU, but you can get a lot better performance cause you're now right there on the data path. So I think that's the first really key point is that you can get that offload, but then once you have all of that functionality there, then you can start doing some really amazing things. And this ability to expose additional virtual devices onto the PCI bus, this is another great capability of a SmartNic. So when you plug it in physically into the motherboard, it's a Nic, right. You can see that. And when it starts up, it looks like a Nic to the motherboard, to the system, but then via software, you can have it expose additional devices. It could look like a storage controller, or it could look like an FPGA look really any sort of device. And you can do that. Not only for the local machine where it's plugged in, but potentially remote machines as well with the right sorts of interconnects. So what this creates is a whole new sort of cluster architecture. And that's why we're really so excited about it because you got all these great benefits in terms of offload performance improvement, security improvement, but then you get this great ability to get very dynamic, just aggregation. And composability. >> So Kit, how much of it is the routing of the workload to the right place, right? That's got the right amount of say, it's a super data intensive once a lot of GPU versus actually better executing the operation. Once it gets to the place where it's going to run. >> Yeah. It's a bit of a combination actually. So the powerful thing about it is that in a traditional world, where are you want an application? You know, the server that you run it, that app can really only use the local devices there. Yes, there is some newer stuff like NVMe over fabric where you can remote certain types of storage capabilities, but there's no real general purpose solution to that. Yet that generally speaking, that application is limited to the local hardware devices. Well, the great part about what we're doing with Monterey and with the SmartNic technology is that we can now dynamically remote or expose remote devices from other hosts. And so wherever that application runs matters a little bit less now, in a sense that we can give it the right sorts of hardware it needs in order to operate. You know, if you have, let's say a few machines with a FPGA is normally if you have needed that a Fiji had to run locally, but now can actually run remotely and you can better balance out things like compute requirements versus, you know, specialized Accella Requirements. And so I think what we're looking at is, especially in the context of VMware cloud foundation, is bringing that all together. We can look through the scheduling, figure out what the best host for it to let run on based on all these considerations. And that's it, we are missing, let's say a physical device that needs, well, we can remote that and sort of a deal at that, a missing gap there. >> Right, right. That's great. Paul, I want to go back to you. You just talked about, you know, kind of coming at this problem from a data centric point of view, and you're running infrastructure and you're the poor guy that's got to catch all the ASAM Todd i the giant exponential curves up into the right on the data flow and the data quantity. How is that impacting the way you think about infrastructure and designing infrastructure and changing infrastructure and kind of future proofing infrastructure when, you know, just around the corners, 5g and IOT and, Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet in terms of the data flow. >> Yeah. So I come at this from two angles. One that we talked about briefly is the evolution of the workloads themselves. The other angle, which is just as important is the operating model that customers are wanting to evolve to. And in that context, we thought a lot about how cloud, if an operating model, not necessarily a destination, right? So what I, and when way we laid out, what Kit was talking about is that in data center computing, you have operational control and data plane. Where did data plane run from the optimized solution? GPU's, PGA's, offload engines? And the control plane can run on stuff like it could be safe and are then I'm thinking about SmartNic is back codes have arm boards, so you can implement some data plane and some control plane, and they can also be the gateway. Cause, you know, you've talked about composability, what has been done up until now is early for sprint, right? We're carving out software defined infrastructure out of predefined hardware blocks. What we're talking about is making, you know, a GPUs residents in our fabric consistent memory residence of a fabric NVME over fabric and being able to tile computing topologies on demand to realize and applications intent. And we call that intent based computer. >> Right. Well, just, and to follow up on that too, as the, you know, cloud is an attitude or as an operating model or whatever you want to say, you know, not necessarily a place or a thing has changed. I mean, how has that had to get you to shift your infrastructure approach? Cause you've got to support, you know, old school, good old data centers. We've got, you know, some stuff running on public clouds. And then now you've got hybrid clouds and you have multi clouds, right. So we know, you know, you're out in the field that people have workloads running all over the place. So, but they got to control it and they've got compliance issues and they got a whole bunch of other stuff. So from your point of view, as you see the desire for more flexibility, the desire for more infrastructure centric support for the workloads that I want to buy and the increasing amount of those that are more data centric, as we move to hopefully more data driven decisions, how's it changed your strategy. And what does it mean to partner and have a real nice formal relationship with the folks over at VMR or excuse me, VMware? >> Well, I think that regardless of how big a company is, it's always prudent. As I say, when I approached my job, right, architecture is about balance and efficiency and it's about reducing contention. And we like to leverage industry R and D, especially in cases where one plus one equals two, right? In the case of, project Monterey for example, one of the collaboration areas is in improving the security model and being able to provide more air gap isolation, especially when you consider that enterprise wants to behave as service providers is concerned or to their companies. And therefore this is important. And because of that, I think that there's a lot of things that we can do between VMware and Dell lending hardware, and for example, assets like NSX and a different way that will give customers higher scalability and performance and more control, you know, beyond VMware and Dell EMC i think that we're partnering with obviously the SmartNic vendors, cause they're smart interprets and the gateway to those that are clean. They're not really analysis, but also companies that are innovating in data center computing, for example, NVIDIA. >> Right. Right. >> And I think that what we're seeing is while, you know, ambivalent has done an awesome job of targeting their capability, AIML type of workloads, what we realized this applications today depend on platform services, right. And up until recently, those platform services have been debases messaging PI active directory, moving forward. I think that within five years, most applications will depend on some form of AIML service. So I can see an opportunity to go mainstream with this >> Right. Right. Well, it's great. You bring up in NVIDIA and I'm just going to quote one of Pat's lines from, from his interview. And he talked about Jensen from NVIDIA actually telling Pat, Hey Pat, I think you're thinking too small. I love it. You know, let's do the entire AI landscape together and make AI and enterprise class workloads from being more in TANZU, you know, first class citizens. So I, I love the fact, you know, Pat's been around a long time industry veteran, but still, kind of accepted the challenge from Jensen to really elevate AI and machine learning via GPS to first class citizen status. And the other piece, obviously this coming up is ed. So I, you know, it's a nice shot of a, of adrenaline and Kit I wonder if you can share your thoughts on that, you know, in kind of saying, Hey, let's take it up a notch, a significant notch by leveraging a whole another class of compute power within these solutions. >> Yeah. So, I mean, I'll, I'll go real quick. I mean, I, it's funny cause like not many people really ever challenged Pat to say he doesn't think big enough, cause usually he's always blown us away with what he wants to do next, but I think it's, I think it's a, you know, it's good though. It's good to keep us on our toes and push us a bit. Right. All of us within the industry. And so I think a couple of things you have to go back to your previous point around this is like cloud as a model. I think that's exactly what we're doing is trying to bring cloud as a model, even on prem. And it's a lot of these kinds of core hardware architecture capabilities that we do enable the biggest one in my mind, just being enabling an API into the hardware. So the applications can get what they need. And going back to Paul's point, this notion of these AI and ML services, you know, they have to be rooted in the hardware, right? We know that in order for them to be performing for them to run, to support what our customers want to do, we need to have that deeply integrated into the hardware all the way up. But that also becomes a software problem. Once we got the hardware solved, once we get that architecture locked in, how can we as easy as possible, as seamlessly as possible, deliver all those great capabilities, software capabilities. And so, you know, you look at what we've done with the NVIDIA partnership, things around the NVIDIA GPU cloud, and really bringing that to bear. And so then you start having this, this really great full stack integration all the way from the hardware, very powerful hardware architecture that, you know, again, driven by API, the infrastructure software on top of that. And then all these great AI tools, tool chains, capabilities with things like the NVIDIA NGC. So that's really, I think where the vision's going. And we got a lot of the basic parts there, but obviously a lot more work to do going forward. >> I would say that, you know, initially we had dream, we wanted this journey to happen very fast and initially we're baiting infrastructure services. So there's no contention with applications, customer full workload applications, and also in enabling how productive it is to get the data over time, have to have sufficient control over a wide area. there's an opportunity to do something like that to make sure that you think about the probation from bare metal vms (conversation fading) environments are way more dynamic and more spreadable. Right. And they expect hardware. It could be as dynamic and compostable to suit their needs. And I think that's where we're headed. >> Right. So let me, so let me throw a monkey wrench in, in terms of security, right? So now this thing is much more flexible. It's much more software defined. How is that changing the way you think about security and basic security and throughout the stack go to you first, Paul. >> Yeah. Yeah. So like it's actually enables a lot of really powerful things. So first of all, from an architecture and implementation standpoint, you have to understand that we're really running two copies of VXI on each physical server. Now we've got the one running on the X86 side, just like normal, and now we've got one running on the SmartNIC as well. And so, as I mentioned before, we can move a lot of that networking security, et cetera, capabilities off to the SmartNic. And so what does this going toward as what we call a zero trust security architecture, this notion of having really defense in depth at many different layers and many different areas while obviously the hypervisor and the virtualization layer provides a really strong level of security. even when we were doing it completely on the X86 side, now that we're running on a SmartNic that's additional defense in depth because the X86 ESX doesn't really know it doesn't have direct access to the ESX. I run it on the SmartNic So the ESXI running on the SmartNic, it can be this kind of more well defended position. Moreover, now that we're running the security functionality is directly on the data path. In the SmartNic. We can do a lot more with that. We can run a lot deeper analysis, can talk about AI and ML, bring a lot of those capabilities to bear here to actually improve the security profile. And so finally I'd say this notion of kind of distributed security as well, that you don't, that's what I want to have these individual points on the physical network, but I actually distribute the security policies and enforcement to everywhere where a server's running, I everywhere where a SmartNic is, and that's what we can do here. And so it really takes a lot of what we've been doing with things like NSX, but now connects it much more deeply into hardware, allowing for better performance and security. >> A common attack method is to intercept the boot of the server physical server. And, you know, I'm actually very proud of our team because the us national security agency recently published a white paper on best practices for secure group. And they take our implementation across and secure boot as the reference standard. >> Right? Moving forward, imagine an environment that even if you gain control of the server, that doesn't allow you to change bios or update it. So we're moving the root of trust to be in that air gap, domain that Kit talked about. And that gives us a way more capability for zero across the operations. Right. >> Right, right. Paul, I got to ask you, I had Sam bird on the other day, your peer who runs the P the PC group. >> I'm telling you, he is not a peer He's a little bit higher up. >> Higher than you. Okay. Well, I just promoted you so that's okay. But, but it's really interesting. Cause we were talking about, it was literally like 10 years ago, the death of the PC article that came out when, when Apple introduced the tablet and, you know, he's talked about what phenomenal devices that PCs continue to be and evolve. And then it's just funny how, now that dovetails with this whole edge conversation, when people don't necessarily think of a PC as a piece of the edge, but it is a great piece of the edge. So from an infrastructure point of view, you know, to have that kind of presence within the PCs and kind of potentially that intelligence and again, this kind of whole another layer of interaction with the users and an opportunity to define how they work with applications and prioritize applications. I just wonder if you can share how nice it is to have that kind of in your back pocket to know that you've got a whole another, you know, kind of layer of visibility and connection with the users beyond just simply the infrastructure. >> So I actually, within the company we've developed within a framework that we call four edge multicloud, right. Core data centers and enterprise edge IOP, and then off premise. it is a multicloud world. And, and within that framework, we consider our client solutions group products to be part of the yes. And we see a lot of benefit. I'll give an example about a healthcare company that wants to develop real time analytics, regardless of whether it's on a laptop or maybe move into a backend data center, right? Whether it's at a hospital clinic or a patient's home, it gives us a broader innovation surface and a little sooner to get actually the, a lot of people may not appreciate that the most important function within Centene, I considered to be the experienced design thing. So being able to design user flows and customer experience looked at all of use is a variable. >> That's great. That's great. So we're running out of time. I want to give you each the last word you both been in this business for a long time. This is brand new stuff, right? Container aren't new, Kubernetes is still relatively new and exciting. And project Pacific was relatively new and now project Monterrey, but you guys are, you know, you're, multi-decade veterans in this thing. as you look forward, what does this moment represent compared to some of the other shifts that we've seen in IT? You know, generally, but you know, kind of consumption of compute and you know, kind of this application centric world that just continues to grow. I mean, as a software is eating everything, we know it, you guys live it every day. What is, where are we now? And you know, what do you see? Maybe I don't want to go too far out, but the next couple of years within the Monterey framework. And then if you have something else, generally you can add as well. Paul, why don't we start with you? >> Well, I think on a personal level, ingenuity aside I have a long string of very successful endeavor in my career when I came back couple years ago, one of the things that I told Jeff, our vice chairman is a big canvas and I intend to paint my masterpiece and I think, you know, Monterey and what we're doing in support of Monterey is also part of that. I think that you will see, you will see our initial approach focus on, on coordinator. I can tell you that you know how to express it. And we know also how to express even in a multicloud world. So I'm very excited and I know that I'm going to be busy for the next few years. (giggling) >> A Kit to you. >> Yeah. So, you know, it's funny you talk to people about SmartNic and especially those folks that have been around for awhile. And what you hear is like, Hey, you know, people were talking about SmartNic 10 years ago, 20 years ago, that sort of thing. Then they kind of died off. So what's different now. And I think the big difference now is a few things, you know, first of all, it's the core technology of sworn and has dramatically improved. We now have a powerful software infrastructure layer that can take advantage of it. And, you know, finally, you know, applications have a really strong need for it, again, with all the things we've talked about, the need for offload. So I think there's some real sort of fundamental shifts that have happened over the past. Let's say decade that have driven the need for this. And so this is something that I believe strongly as here to last, you know, both ourselves at VMware, as well as Dell are making a huge bet on this, but not only that, and not only is it good for customers, it's actually good for all the operators as well. So whether this is part of VCF that we deliver to customers for them to operate themselves, just like they always have, or if it's part of our own cloud solutions, things like being more caught on Dell, this is going to be a core part about how we deliver our cloud services and infrastructure going forward. So we really do believe this is kind of a foundational transition that's taking place. And as we talked about, there is a ton of additional innovation that's going to come out of it. So I'm really, really excited for the next few years, because I think we're just at the start of a very long and very exciting journey. >> Awesome. Well, thank you both for spending some time with us and sharing the story and congratulations. I'm sure a whole bunch of work for, from a whole bunch of people in, into getting to getting where you are now. And, and as you said, Paul, the work is barely just begun. So thanks again. All right. He's Paul's He's Kit. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cubes, continuing coverage of Dell tech world 2020, that digital experience. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (Upbeat music)

>>From Las Vegas. It's the cube covering Qualis security conference 2019 you buy quality. >>Hey, welcome back. You're ready. Jeff Frick here with the cube. We're in Las Vegas at the Bellagio, at the quality security conference. It's the 19th year they've been doing this. It's our first year here and we're excited to be here and it's great to have a veteran who's been in this space for so long, to give a little bit more of a historical perspective as to what happened in the past and where we are now and what can we look forward to in the future. So coming right off his keynote is Felipe korto, the chairman and CEO of Qualys. Phillip, great to see you. Thank you. Same, same, same for me. Absolutely. So you touched on so many great, um, topics in your conversation about kind of the shifts of, of, of modern computing from the mainframe to the mini. We've heard it over and over and over, but the key message was really about architecture. If you don't have the right architecture, you can't have the right solution. So how has the evolution of architects of architectures impacted your ability to deliver security solutions for your clients? >>So now that's a very good question. And in fact, you know, what happened is that we started in 1999 with a vision that we could use exactly like a salesforce.com this nascent internet technologies and apply that to security. And uh, so, and mod when you have applied that to essentially changing the way CRM was essentially used and deployed in enterprises and with a fantastic success as we know. So for us, the, I can say today that 19 years later the vision was right. It took a significant longer because the security people are not really, uh, warm at the idea of silently, uh, having the data in their view, which was in place that they could not control. And the it people, they didn't really like at all the fact that suddenly they were not in control anymore of the infrastructure. So we had a lot of resistance. >>I, wherever we always, I always believe, absolutely believe that the, the cloud will be the cloud architecture to go back. A lot of people make the confusion. That was part of the confusion that for people it was a cloud, that kind of magical things someplace would you don't know where. And when I were trying to explain, and I've been saying that so many times that well you need to look at the cloud like compute that can architecture which distribute the competing power far more efficiently than the previous one, which was client server, which was distributing the convening power far better than of course the mainframes and the mini computers. And so if you look at their architectures, so the mainframe were essentially big data centers in uh, in Fort Knox, like settings, uh, private lines of communication to a dump terminal. And of course security was not really issue then because it's security was built in by the IBM's and company. >>Same thing with the mini computer, which then was instead of just providing the computing power to the large, very large company, you could afford it. Nelson and the minicomputer through the advanced in semiconductor technology could reduce a foot Frank. And then they'll bring that computing power to the labs and to the departments. And was then the new era of the digital equipment, the prime, the data general, et cetera. Uh, and then kind of server came in. So what client server did, again, if you look at the architecture, different architecture now silently servers, the land or the internal network and the PC, and that was now allowing to distribute the computing power to the people in the company. And so, but then you needed to, so everybody, nobody paid attention to security because then you were inside of the enterprise. So it started inside the walls of the castle if you prefer. >>So nobody paid attention to that. It was more complex because now you have multiple actors. Instead of having one IBM or one digital equipment, et cetera, suddenly you have the people in manufacturing and the servers, the software, the database, the PCs, and on announcer, suddenly there was the complexity, increasing efficiency, but nobody paid attention to security because it wasn't a needed until suddenly we realized that viruses could come in through the front door being installed innocently. You were absolutely, absolutely compromised. And of course that's the era of the antivirus which came in. And then because of the need to communicate more and more now, Senator, you could not stay only in your castle. You needed to go and communicate to your customers, to your suppliers, et cetera, et cetera. And now he was starting to open up your, your castle to the world and hello so now so that the, the bad guy could come in and start to steal your information. >>And that was the new era of the forward. Now you make sure that those who come in, but of course that was a little bit naive because there were so many other doors and windows, uh, that people could come in, you know, create tunnels and create these and all of that trying to ensure your customers because the data was becoming more and more rich and more, more important or more value. So whenever there is a value, of course the bad guys are coming in to try to sell it. And that was that new era of a willing to pay attention to security. The problem has been is because you have so many different actors, there was nothing really central there that was just selling more and more solutions and no, absolutely like 800 vendors bolting on security, right? And boating on anything is short-lived at the end of the day because you put more and more weight and then you also increase the complexity and all these different solutions you need. >>They need to talk together so you have a better context. Uh, but they want the design to talk together. So now you need to put other system where they could communicate that information. So you complicated and complicated and complicated the solution. And that's the problem of today. So now cloud computing comes in and again, if you look at the architecture of cloud computing, it's again data centers, which is not today I've become thanks to the technology having infinite, almost competing power and storage capabilities. And like the previous that I sent her, the are much more fractured because you just one scale and they become essentially a little bit easier to secure. And by the way, it's your fewer vendors now doing that. And then of course the access can be controlled better. Uh, and then of course the second component is not the land and the one, it's now the internet. >>And the internet of course is the web communications extremely cheap and it brings you an every place on the planet and soon in Morris, why not? So and so. Now the issue today is that still the internet needs to be secure. And today, how are we going to secure the internet? Which is very important thing today because you see today that you can spoof your email, you can spoof your website, uh, you can attack the DNS who, yes, there's a lot of things that the bad guys still do. And in fact, they've said that leverage the internet of course, to access everywhere so they take advantage of it. So now this is obviously, you know, I created the, the trustworthy movement many years ago to try to really address that. Unfortunately, the quality's was too small and it was not really our place today. There's all the Google, the Facebook, the big guys, which in fact their business depend on the internet. >>Now need to do that. And I upload or be diabetic, criticized very much so. Google was the first one to essentially have a big initiative, was trying to push SSL, which everybody understand is secret encryption if you prefer. And to everybody. So they did a fantastic job. They really push it. So now today's society is becoming like, okay, as I said, you want to have, as I said it all in your communication, but that's not enough. And now they are pushing and some people criticize them and I absolutely applaud them to say we need to change the internet protocols which were created at a time when security, you were transferring information from universities and so forth. This was the hay days, you know, of everything was fine. There was no bad guys, you know, the, he'd be days, if you like, of the internet. Everybody was free, everybody was up and fantastic. >>Okay. And now of course, today this protocol needs to be upgraded, which is a lot of work. But today I really believe that if you put Google, Amazon, Facebook altogether, and they can fix these internet protocols. So we could forget about the spoofing and who forgot about all these phishing and all these things. But this is their responsibility. So, and then you have now on the other side, you have now very intelligent devices from in a very simple sensors and you know, to sophisticated devices, the phone, that cetera and not more and more and more devices interconnected and for people to understand what is going. So this is the new environment and whether we always believe is that if you adopt an architecture, which is exactly which fits, which is similar, then we could instead of bolting security in, we can now say that the build security in a voting security on, we could build security in. >>And we have been very proud of the work that we've done with Microsoft, which we announced in fact relatively recently, very recently, that in fact our agent technologies now is bundled in Microsoft. So we have built security with Microsoft in. So from a security perspective today, if you go to the Microsoft as your secretly center, you click on the link and now you have the view of your entire Azure environment. Crazier for quality Sagent. You click on a second link and now you have the view of your significant loss posture, crazy of that same quality. Say Sagent and then you click on the third name with us. Nothing to do with quality. It's all Microsoft. You create your playbook and you remediate. So security in this environment has become click, click, click, nothing to install, nothing to update. And the only thing you bring are your policies saying, I don't want to have this kind of measured machine expose on the internet. >>I want, this is what I want. And you can continuously audit in essentially in real time, right? So as you can see, totally different than putting boxes and boxes and so many things and then having to for you. So very big game changer. So the analogy that I want you that I give to people, it's so people don't understand that paradigm shift is already happening in the way we secure our homes. You put sensors everywhere, you have cameras, you have detection for proximity detection. Essentially when somebody tried to enter your home, all that data is continuously pumped up into an incidence restaurant system. And then from your phone, again across the internet, you can change the temperature of your rooms. You can do what you can see the person who knocks on the door. You can see its face, you can open the door, close the door, the garage door, you can do all of that remotely, another medically. >>And then if there's a burglar then in your house to try to raking immediately the incidents or some system called the cops or the far Marsha difficult fire. And that's the new paradigm. So security has to follow that paradigm. And then you have interesting of the problem today that we see with all the current secretly uh, systems, uh, incidents, response system. They have a lot of false positive, false positive and false negative are the enemy really of security. Because if you are forced visited, you cannot automate the response because then you are going to try to respond to something that is not true. So you are, you could create a lot of damage. And the example I give you that today in the, if you leave your dog in your house and if you don't have the ability, the dog will bark, would move. And then the sensors would say intruder alert. >>So that's becomes a false positive. So how do you eliminate that? By having more context, you can eliminate automatically again, this false positives. Like now you take a fingerprint of your dog and of these voice and now the camera and this and the sensors and the voice can pick up and say, Oh, this is my dog. So then of course you eliminate that for solar, right? Right. Now even if another dog managed to enter your home through a window which was open or whatever for soul, you will know her window was up and but you know you cannot necessarily fix it and the dog opens. Then you will know it's a, it's a, it's not sure about, right? So that's what security is evolving such a huge sea of change, which is happening because of all that internet and today companies today, after leveraging new cloud technology, which are coming, there's so much new technology. >>What people understand is where's that technology coming from? How come silently we have, you know, Dockers netics all these solutions today, which are available at almost no cost because it's all open source. So what happened is that, which is unlike the enterprise software, which were more the Oracle et cetera, the manufacturer of that software today is in fact the cloud public cloud vendors, the Amazon, the Google, the Facebook, the Microsoft. We suddenly needed to have to develop new technology so they could scale at the size of the planet. And then very shrewdly realized that effective that technology for me, I'm essentially going to imprison that technology is not going to evolve. And then I need other technologies that are not developing. So they realized that they totally changed that open source movement, which in the early days of opensource was more controlled by people who had more purity. >>If you prefer no commercial interests, it was all for the good of the civilization and humankind. And they say their licensing model was very complex. So they simplified all of that. And then nothing until you had all this technology coming at you extremely fast. And we have leverage that technology, which was not existing in the early days when when socials.com started with the Linux lamp pour called what's called Linux Apache. My SQL and PHP, a little bit limiting, but now suddenly all this technology, that classic search was coming, we today in our backend, 3 trillion data points on elastic search clusters and we return inflammation in a hundred milliseconds. And then onto the calf cabin, which is again something at open source. We, we, we, and now today 5 million messages a day and on and on and on. So the world is changing and of course, if that's what it's called now, the digital transformation. >>So now enterprises to be essentially agile, to reach out to the customers better and more, they need to embrace the cloud as the way they do, retool their entire it infrastructure. And essentially it's a huge sea of change. And that's what we see even the market of security just to finish, uh, now evolving in a totally different ways than the way it has been, which in the past, the market of security was essentially the market for the enterprise. And I'm bringing you my, my board, my board town solutions that you have to go and install and make work, right? And then you had the, the antivirus essentially, uh, for all the consumers and so forth. So today when we see the marketplace, which is fragmenting in four different segments, which is one is the large enterprise which are going to essentially consolidate those stock, move into the digital transformation, leveraging absolutely dev ops, which isn't becoming the new buyer and of course a soak or they could improve, uh, their it for, to reach out to more customers and more effectively than the cloud providers as I mentioned earlier, which are building security in the, no few use them. >>You don't have to worry about infrastructure, about our mini servers. You need, I mean it is, it's all done for you. And same thing about security, right? The third market is going to be an emergence of a new generation of managed security service providers, which are going to take to all these companies. We don't have enough resources. Okay, don't worry, I'm going to help you, you know, do all that digital transformation. And that if you build a security and then there's a totally new market of all these devices, including the phone, et cetera, which connects and that you essentially want to all these like OT and IOT devices that are all now connected, which of course presents security risk. So you need to also secure them, but you also need to be able to also not only check their edits to make sure that, okay, because you cannot send people anymore. >>So you need to automate the same thing on security. If you find that that phone is compromised, you need to make, to be able to make immediate decisions about should I kill that phone, right? Destroyed everything in it. Should I know don't let that phone connect anymore to my networks. What should I do? Should I, by the way detected that they've downloaded the application, which are not allowed? Because what we see is more and more companies now are giving tablets, do the users. And in doing so now today's the company property. So they could say, okay, you use these tablets and uh, you're not allowed to do this app. So you could check all of that and then automatically remote. But that again requires a full visibility on what you are. And that's why just to finish, we make a big decision about a few, three months ago that we have, we build the ability for any company on the planet to automatically build their entire global HSE inventory, which nobody knows what they have in that old networking environment. >>You don't know what connects to have the view of the known and the unknown, totally free of charge, uh, across on premise and pawn cloud containers, uh, uh, uh, whether vacations, uh, OT and IOT devices to come. So now there's the cornerstone of security. So with that totally free. So, and then of course we have all these additional solutions and we're build a very scalable, uh, up in platform where we can take data in, pass out data as well. So we really need to be and want to be good citizen here because security at the end of the day, it's almost like we used to say like the doctors, you have to have that kind of apricot oath that you cannot do no arm. So if you keep, if you try to take the data that you have, keep it with you, that's absolutely not right because it's the data of your customers, right? >>So, and you have to make sure that it's there. So you have to be a good warning of the data, but you have to make sure that the customer can absolutely take that data to whatever he wants with it, whatever he needs to do. So that's the kind of totally new field as a fee. And finally today there is a new Ash culture change, which is, which is happening now in the companies, is that security has become fronted centers, is becoming now because of GDPR, which has a huge of financial could over you challenge an impact on a company. A data breach can have a huge financial impact. Security has become a board level. More and more social security is changing and now it's almost like companies, if they want to be successful in the future, they need to embrace a culture of security. And now what I used to say, and that was the, the conclusion of my talk is that now, today it DevOps, uh, security compliance, people need to unite. Not anymore. The silos. I do that. This is my, my turf, my servers. You do that, you do this. Everybody in the company can work. I have to work together towards that goal. And the vendors need to also start to inter operate as well and working with our customers. So it's a tall, new mindset, which is happening, but the safes are big. That's what I'm very confident that we're now into that. Finally, we thought, I thought it would have happened 10 years ago, quite frankly. And uh, but now today's already happening. >>She touched on a lot, a lot there. And I'll speak for another two hours if we could. We could go for Tara, but I want to, I want to unpack a couple of things. We've had James Hamilton on you to at AWS. Um, CTO, super smart guy and it was, it was at one of his talks where it really was kind of a splash, a wet water in the face when he talked about the amount of resources Amazon could deploy to just networking or the amount of PhD power he could put on, you know, any little tiny sub segment of their infrastructure platform where you just realize that you just can't, you can't compete, you cannot put those kinds of resources as an individual company in any bucket. So the inevitability of the cloud model is just, it's, it's the only way to leverage those resources. But because of that, how has, how has that helped you guys change your market? How nice is it for you to be able to leverage infrastructure partners? Like is your bill for go to market as well as feature sets? And also, you know, because the other piece they didn't talk about is the integration of all these things. Now they all work together. Most apps are collection of API APIs. That's also changed. So when you look at the cloud provider GCP as well, how does that help you deliver value to your customers? >>Yeah, but the, the, the, the club, they, they don't do everything. You know, today what is interesting is that the clubs would start to specialize themselves more and more. So for example, if you look at Amazon, the, the core value of Amazon since the beginning has been elastic computing. Uh, now today we should look at Microsoft. They leverage their position and they really have come up with a more enterprise friendly solution. And now Google is trying to find also their way today. And so then you have Addy Baba, et cetera. So these are the public cloud, but life is not uniform like is by nature. Divers life wants to leave lunch to find better ways. We see that that's what we have so many different species and it just ended up. So I've also the other phenomena of companies also building their own cloud as well. >>So the word is entering into a more hybrid cloud. And the technology is evolving very fast as well. And again, I was selling you all these open source software. There's a bigger phenomenon at play, which I used to say that people don't really understand that much wood, but it's so obvious is if you look at the printing price, that's another example that gives the printing price essentially allowed, as we all know, to distribute the gospel, which has some advantage of, you know, creating more morality, et cetera. But then what people don't know for the most part, it distributed the treaties of the Arabs on technology, the scientif treaties, because the archives, which were very thriving civilization at the time, I'd collected all the, all the, all the information from India, from many other places and from China and from etc. And essentially at the time all of Europe was pretty in the age they really came up and it now certainty that scientific knowledge was distributed and that was in fact the seeds of the industrial revolution, which then you're up cat coats and use that and creating all these different technologies. >>So that confidence of this dimension of electricity and all of that created the industrial revolution seeded by now, today what is happening is that the internet is the new printing press, which now is distributing the knowledge that not to a few millions of people to billions of people. So the rate today of advancing technology is accelerating and it's very difficult. I was mentioning today, we know today that work and working against some quantum computing which are going to totally change things. Of course we don't know exactly how and you have also it's clear that today we could use genetic, uh, the, the, the, if you look at DNA, which stores so much information, so little place that we could have significant more, you know, uh, memory capabilities that lower costs. So we have embarked into absolutely a new world where things are changing. I've got a little girl, which is 12 years old and fundamentally that new generation, especially of girls, not boys, because the boys are still on, you know, at that age. >>Uh, they are very studious. They absorb so much information via YouTube. They are things like a security stream. They are so knowledgeable. And when you look back at history 2000 years plus ago in Greece, you at 95 plus percent of the population slaves. So a few percent could start to think now, today it's totally changed. And the amount of information they can, they learn. And this absolutely amazing. And you know, she, she's, I would tell you the story which has nothing to do with computing, but as a button, the knowledge of, she came to me the few, few weeks ago and she said, Oh daddy, I would like to make my mother more productive. Okay. So I said, Oh, that's her name is Avia, which is the, which is the, the, the either Greece or Zeus weathered here. And so I say, Evie, I, so that's a good idea. >>So how are you going to do it? I mean, our answer, I was flawed, but that is very simple. Just like with, for me, I'm going to ask her to go to YouTube to learn what she needs to learn. Exactly. And she learns, she draws very well. She learns how to draw in YouTube and it's not a gifted, she's a nice, very nice little girl and very small, but all her friends are like that. Right? So we're entering in a word, which thing are changing very, very fast. So the key is adaptation, education and democracy and democratization. Getting more people access to more. Absolutely. It's very, very important. And then kind of this whole dev ops continuous improve that. Not big. That's a very good point that you make because that's exactly today the new buyer today in security and in it is becoming the DevOps shipper. >>Because what? What are these people? There are engineers which suddenly create good code and then they want to of course ship their code and then all these old silos or you need to do these, Oh no, we need to put the new server, we don't have the capacity, et cetera. How is that going to take three months or a month? And then finally they find a way through, again, you know, all the need for scale, which was coming from the Google, from the Facebook and so forth. And by the way, we can shortcut all of that and we can create and we can run out to auto-ship, our code. Guess what are they doing today? They are learning how to secure all of that, right? So again, it's that ability to really learn and move. And today, uh, one of the problem that you alluded to is that, which the Amazon was saying is that their pick there, they have taken a lot of the talent resources in the U S today because of course they pay them extra to me, what? >>Of course they'll attract that talent. And of course there's now people send security. There's not enough people that even in, but guess what? We realized that few years ago in 2007, we'll make a big decision who say, well, never going to be able to attract the right people in the Silicon Valley. And we've started to go to India and we have now 750 people. And Jack Welch used to say, we went to India for the cost and discover the talent. We went to India for the talent and we discover the cost. And there is a huge pool of tenants. So it's like a life wants to continue to leave and now to, there are all these tools to learn, are there, look at the can Academy, which today if you want to go in nuclear physics, you can do that through your phone. So that ability to learn is there. So I think we need just more and more people are coming. So I'm a very optimistic in a way because I think the more we improve our technologies that we look at the progress we're making genetics and so everywhere and that confidence of technology is really creating a new way. >>You know, there's a lot of conversations about a dystopian future and a utopian future with all these technologies and the machines. And you know what? Hollywood has shown us with AI, you're very utopian side, very optimistic on that equation. What gives you, what gives you, you know, kind of that positive feeling insecurity, which traditionally a lot of people would say is just whack a mole. And we're always trying to chase the bad guys. Generally >>speaking, if I'm a topian in in a way. But on the other end, you'd need to realize that unfortunately when you have to technological changes and so forth, it's also create factors. And when you look at this story in Manatee, the same technological advancement that some countries to take to try to take advantage of fathers is not that the word is everything fine and everything peaceful. In fact, Richard Clark was really their kid always saying that, Hey, you know that there is a sinister side to all the internet and so forth. But that's the human evolution. So I believe that we are getting longterm. It's going to. So in the meantime there's a lot of changes and humans don't adapt well to change. And so that's in a way, uh, the big challenge we have. But I think over time we can create a culture of change and that will really help. And I also believe that probably at some point in time we will re-engineer the human race. >>All right, cool. We'll leave it there. That's going to launch a whole nother couple hours. They leave. Congratulations on the event and a great job on your keynote. Thanks for taking a few minutes with us. Alrighty. It's relief. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube where the Qualice security conference at the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Female: From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeffrey here with The Cube. We're in our Palo Alto studios today for a Cube conversation. Again, it's a little bit of a let down in the crazy conference season, so it gives us an opportunity to do more studio work, and check in with some folks. So we're really excited to have our next guest. We'd love to talk to practitioners, people out on the front lines that are really living this digital transformation experience. So we'd like to welcome in, all the way from Toronto, the NBA champion, Toronto, home of the Raptors, he's Phillip Armstrong, global C.I.O., and E.V.P. from Great-West Lifeco. Philip, great to see you. >> Thanks, Jeff, good afternoon. >> And I got to say congrats, you know, you took the title away from us this year, but a job well done, and we all rejoiced in Canada's happy celebration. I'm sure it was a lot of fun. >> Lots of excitement here in Toronto for sure. >> Great, so let's jump into it. A lot of conversations about digital transformations. You're right in the heart of it, you're running a big company that's complicated, it's old. So first off, give us a little bit of a background just for people that aren't familiar with Great-West Lifeco in terms of how long you've been around, the scale and size, and then we can get into some of the challenges and the opportunities that you're facing. >> Sure, I'd love to. Actually, one of probably the world's best kept secrets. So Great-West Lifeco is a holding company, and underneath that company, we have a number of companies. So for example in the U.S., you may have heard of Putnam Mutual Funds out of Boston, or Empower Retirement Services, the second largest pension administration company in the United States out of Denver. We have companies called Canada Life and Irish Life. We operate in Europe, the U.S., and Canada. We were formed in 1847, so we're 170 odd years old. Very old, established company, in fact, the first life insurance company to get its charter in Canada. So we were certainly not born digital, we were not born in the cloud. In fact, we weren't even born analog. I think our history goes back to parchment, green ink, and "I" shares. So this has been quite the digital transformation for our company. >> So when you think about digital transformation, insurance companies are always interesting, right? Because insurance companies, by their very nature, they created actuarials, and you guys have always been doing math, and you've always been forecasting, and building models. What does digital transformation mean for you, and that core business in the way you look at insurance and the products that you offer your customers? >> It's been massive, it's had a massive impact right across our company. We have 30 million customers around the globe. Customers' expectations are rising every single day. They want online access to their information. We're an insurance company, but we're also a wealth management company, so we're open to market timing and exposures to the market. Our pace in our business has accelerated dramatically. So just the expectation, the other companies, digitally-native companies are setting with our customers, has forced us to completely re-examine our traditional business models that have served us so well, almost to the point where you have to take a hand grenade and just blow it up and start again. This is very, very difficult when you've got actuarial tables that are working, that are built on hundreds of years of experience. We're moving into a completely new world now. We've come from a world where security has always been very important to us. We manage 1.4 trillion dollars of other people's money. We have traditional business models and traditional data centers, and we operate at a certain level, a certain pace, and all of that, all of that, now has to change. We have skill sets and people who are very, very technical in nature, in their jobs, and have we got the right skills to take us into the future? Can we future-proof our business? This has been, not just a technology transformation, but a massive cultural transformation for our company. A reinvention of all of our business models, the way we look at our customers. A lot of our business is done through advisors. We have half a million advisors around the world that give financial planning and advice to people, and allow them to have some financial security. Our relationship with them has to change, and their expectations in using technology has to change. So this digital transformation is only a thin sliver of the transformation that our company has been going through globally over the last few years. >> That's interesting, you talked on so many topics there I want to kind of break it down into three. One is the consumerization of IT that we've talked about over and over and over, and people's experience with Yahoo and Amazon, and shopping with Google and Google Maps, really drives their expectations of the way they want to interact with every application on their phone when they want to, how they want to. So that's interesting in terms of your customer engagement. The other piece I want to go in a little bit is your own employees. You've been around since 1847, the expectations of the kids that you're hiring out of college today, and what they expect in their work environment, also driven in a big part by the phones that they carry in their pockets. And then the third leg of the stool are these, I forget the word that you used, but your partners or associates, or these advisors that you are enabling with your technology stack, but they're, I assume, independent folks out there just like you see at the local insurance office, that you need to enable them in a very different way. You're sitting in the middle. How do you break down the problems across those three groups of people, or contingencies, or constituencies? That's the word I'm looking for. >> Let's start with our advisors. We have many relationships with advisors. We have a relationship with an advisory force that is almost like a tied sales force that is positioned just to sell our products. We have advisors who are quite independent, and yet they sell our products. And then we have advisors that occasionally sell our products, and everything in between. Companies that are advisors, sort of managing general agents. We have bank assurance arrangements. We have all kinds of distribution arrangements around the globe, with our company to distribute our products. But the heart of what we do is an advice-based channel with many variants. So what do those advisors want? The want tools, online tools, they want safe connectivity, they want fast access to the internet, they want to be able to pull in advice, they want video conferencing, they want to be able to be reachable by their customers, and really leverage technology to allow them to provide that timely advice and be responsive to market changes. Almost delivering a bespoke service to each individual, in yet a mass way that's simple and timely. When you look at our employees, our employees pretty much want the same thing. They want safe access to the internet, they want safe access to the cloud and our applications. We've had to go through massive amounts of cultural change and training and education to bring our employees into the new world with new skills and equip them, just ways of working. Video, introducing video into our company, upgrading our networks. The change behind all of this different way of working has been phenomenal. I wish you could see the building we're sitting in today, that I'm coming to you from today. It's a stone building that was built in the early 1930s, a prominent landmark here in Toronto. And from the outside, it looks archaic. When you walk into the lobby, it's all art deco and beautiful. They can't make buildings like this today. But in many ways, it epitomizes our company, because then you go up the elevators and walk onto the floors, and it's all open plan, all digitally enabled. We have Microsoft Teams in every meeting room. The floors are all modern and newly decorated and designed to allow us to collaborate and create new solutions for our customers. It's a real juxtaposition . And that, I feel, is a good analogy for our company right now, and what we're going through. >> So let's talk about how it's changed in terms of the infrastructure. Your job is to both provide tools to all these different constituents you talked about as well as protect it. So it's this interesting dynamic where before, you could build a moat, and keep everybody inside the brick building. But you can't do that anymore, and security has changed dramatically both with the cloud as well as all these hybrid business relationships that you described. So how did you address that? How have you seen that evolve over the last several years, and what are some of the top of mind issues that you have when you're thinking about I've got to give access to all these people. They want fast, efficient tools, they want really a great way for them to execute their job. At the same time, I've got to keep that $1.4 trillion and all that that represents secure. Not an easy challenge. >> Not easy at all. A few years ago, it was pretty trendy to say we're going to move everything to the cloud. I think now, especially for large, complex companies like ours, a hybrid cloud is the way to go. I think we're starting to see a lot more CIOs like myself say, yes I'd love to take advantage of the cloud, and I'm certainly moving a lot of my footprint to the cloud. To start with it was because of cost, but now I think it's because of agility and access to new technologies as well. But when you move things to the cloud, you have to be very cautious around how you do that. We have in-house data centers that we have systems, administration systems that are obfuscated from our clients by fancy front ends and easy-to-use experiences. And they're running on pennies on the dollar, and you can't make a business case to move that to the cloud. So a hybrid cloud is the way to go for us. But what we realized very quickly is that we need to push our Cyrus security and defenses out to the intelligent edge, out to the edge of the internet. Stop bad things happening, stop malware, stop infections coming into our organization before they even come into our organization. The cloud has complicated that. We're reducing our surface areas. I heard just the other day a colleague of mine said yeah the cloud is fabulous, it's a faster way to deliver your mistakes to your customers and in many ways, it is, if you're not careful with what you're doing. We've deployed technology like Zscaler and other types of sand-boxing technology. But it's always a cat and mouse game. The bad guys are putting artificial intelligence into their malware. We saw the other day a piece of malware coming into our organization through email, and when it was exploded, the first thing it did was try to check signatures to see if it was in a virtualized environment. And if it was, it just went back to sleep again and didn't activate. The nice thing about Zscaler and some of the technologies that I'm deploying is that they're proprietary. They don't have these signatures. And so we can screen out, we literally get hundreds of thousands, close to millions, of malware attempts coming into our organization on a daily basis. It is a constant fight. What we've also found is that organizations like ours are big targets. What companies are trying to do is not steal our data, because they know that we won't pay ransoms. What we'd like to do is spend that money protecting our customers with credit monitoring, or changing their passwords and helping them deal with if there is a breach. So the bad guys have changed their tactics. Instead of stealing our data, they'd like to try and penetrate our networks and our systems and cripple us. They would really like to bring us down. And that determines a different strategy and protection. >> You touch on so many things there, Philip. We could go for like three hours I think just on follow-ups to that answer. Let me drill in on a couple. One of them, I'm just curious to get your perspective on how you finance insurance. You made an interesting comment, you don't pay ransom, and you have a budget that you spend on security within all the other priorities you have on your plate. But you can't spend everything on insurance, you can't get ultimate 100% protection. So when you think about your trade-offs, when you think about security almost from like an insurance or business mindset, what's the right amount to spend? How do you think about the right amount to spend for security versus everything else that you have to spend on? >> That's a great question, and I've been talking to my peers around what is the right amount of money? You could spend tons and tons of money on Cyber and still be breached. You can do everything right and again, still be breached. You just have to be very pragmatic about where you direct your resources. For us, it was hardening the perimeter was the start. We wanted to stop things getting in as best we could, so we went out to the cloud and put defenses right at the edge, right at the intelligent edge, and extended our network out. Then we went and said, what is our weakest link, and through social engineering and through dropping things onto people's desktops and them trying to breach into our network, we got some pretty sophisticated technology in end point detection. We monitor our devices using our SIM, we have a dedicated monitoring center that is global, that is in-house and staffed. We've built up a lot of capabilities around that. So then it becomes prioritizing your crown jewels, your most sensitive data, trying to put that most sensitive data into protected zones on your network, and clustering even more defenses around that most sensitive data. I'm a big believer in a defense in depth strategy, so I would have multiple layers of cyber security that overlap. So if you can manage to circumvent some, you might get caught by others. And really that's about it. It's been a struggle. We have a lot of people who specialize in risk-management in our company. So everyone's got an opinion, but I think this is a common challenge for global CIOs. >> I'll share you a pro-tip in a couple of the security shows. It seems HVAC systems are ripe for attack, and the funniest one I've every heard was the automated thermometer in a lobby fish tank at a casino that was the access point. So IOT adds a different challenge. >> Or vending machines. >> Yeah, but HVAC came up like five times out of ten, so watch our for those HVAC systems. But, we're here as part of the Zscaler program, and you've already mentioned them before, their name is on this screen. You've talked before about leveraging partners, and Zscaler specifically, but you mentioned a whole host of really the top names in tech. I wonder if you could give us a bit more color on how do you partner? It's a very different way to look at people in a relationship with a company and the reps that you deal with, versus just buying a product and putting in their product. You really talk about partnering with these companies to help you take on this ever-evolving challenge that is security. >> That's a fabulous question. I know that I cannot match the research and development budgets of some of these very large tech companies. And I don't have the expertise. They're specialists, this is what they do. We were the first company I think to install Zscaler in Canada. We have a great relationship with that company, and Jay's onto something here. He's a thought leader in this space. We've been very pleased with our cooperation and support we got from Zscaler in helping us with our perimeter. When we look inside our company, the network played a big part of delivering cyber security and protection for our customers. We placed a phone call over to Cisco and said come on in and help us with this. We need to completely revamp our network, build a leaf and spine architecture, software-defined network, state of the art, we really want the best and the brightest to come in and help us design this network globally for us. So Cisco has been a superb partner. Cisco has one North American lab, where they try out their new technologies and they advance their technologies. It's just down the street here in Toronto, so we've been able to avail ourselves with some pretty decent thought-leadership in the space. And then also FireEye has been absolutely superb working with them, and we developed pretty close relationships with them. We support their activities, they come in and help us with ours. We've used their consulting agency, Mandiant, quite a bit, to give us advice and help us protect our organization. And I think aligning yourself with these quality companies, Microsoft, I have to call out Microsoft, have been superb, starting from the desktop and moving us through, vertically aligned into the cloud, and providing cyber security every step of the way. You can't rely on one vendor, you have to make sure that these suppliers are partners. You turn vendors into partners and you make sure that they play well together, and that they understand what your priorities are and where you want to go. We've been very transparent with them around what we like and what we don't like, and what we think is working well and what isn't working well. We just build this ecosystem that has to work well in this day and age. >> Well Phillip I think that's a great summary, that it's really important to have partners, and really have a deeper business relationship than simply exchanging money for services. The only way, in this really rapidly evolving world, to get by, because nobody can do it by themselves. I think you summarized that very, very well. So final question before I let you go back to the open floor plan, and all the hard working people over there at Great-West Lifeco. What are you priorities for the balance of the year? I can't believe it's July already, this year is just zooming by. What are some of the things, as you look down the road, that you've got your eye on? >> Well we're certainly watching some of the geo-political activities. We have large operations in Europe, from my accent you can probably tell I'm a Brit. So we're watching Brexit and how that plays out. We're certainly trying to develop new and innovative products for our customers, and certain segments are interesting. The millennial segment, the transference of wealth from people in the later generations into earlier generations, passing wealth down to their kids. Retirement is a really big category for us, and making sure that people have good retirement options and retirement products. And of course, we're always kicking tires, and we're looking out for any opportunities in the M&A market as well, as our industry consolidates and costs rise. So that's kind of what's keeping us busy, and of course rolling out really cool technology. >> All right well thanks for taking a few minutes in your very busy day to spend it with us, and give us your story on the global transformation, the digital transformation and Great-West Life Company. >> You're very welcome, Jeff. Nice chatting with you. >> You too, thanks again. So he's Phil, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube. Just had a Cube Conversation out of Palo Alto studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Washington DC, it's theCUBE. Covering Inforum DC 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Well, welcome to the nation's capital, a rain soaked Washington DC. We're here for Inforum 18, Dave Vellante, John Walls We're in the Walter Washington Convention Center. The fourth time, theCUBE has been at an Infor show and getting bigger and better than ever, David. >> That's right John. This is, let's see, the first one was in New Orleans several years ago. Then Infor skipped a year, and then did Javits couple years in a row. That's sort of the headquarters of where Infor is, very close to the Javits Center. And Charles Phillips, of course, lives in New York City. And this year they decided to come to the nation's capital. I mean, Infor is an interesting company. About $3billion in revenue, essentially it is a private equity roll up. From Golden Gate and others, that really the roots of it are in Lawson Softwares. Some of you may remember Lawson Softwares, the enterprise software company. And then Charles Phillips came on, and of course he was the architect of Oracle's M and A. Probably spent $30 plus billion for Larry Ellison, remaking Oracle. Completely transforming Oracle, brought some of that expertise to Infor in this private equity play, this roll up. And then bought many, many software companies, rolled them up together and really started to compete, using a different model. So, Infor's sort of expertise, if you will is around so called Micro verticals, so they cover a lot of different industries, hospitality industries, they got also manufacturing, ERP, >> Retail financial >> Retail financial, health care, and then they also have horizontal applications like Human Capital management. Their differentiation, is several fold. One major point is they go after what they call the last mile. So they call this micro verticals. So the last mile functionality that would normally have to be customized, Infor does that work for you. Now, the advantage of that is two fold. One is you don't have to do a bunch of custom mods all that hard work is done. The second is, another part of the differentiation is cloud. So they chose, several years ago to go with AWS cloud to put their SaaS on the cloud. Charles Phillips said 'hey when we were an on-prem software company, we didn't manage our own servers for our customers. Or manage customer servers, we didn't do that. So why would we do it in the cloud? We don't want to compete with Google and Microsoft and Amazon in terms of scale, so were going to put our software on the Amazon cloud.' So that's another point of differentiation, the reason that is so important in the context of custom mods, is if you're rolling out new upgrades on a periodic basis, and you hear this a lot from Servicenow customers, for example another cloud software company. You can't do custom mods and then take advantage of the new releases. Because you're going to be way behind. Okay, so you have to have that hard work done so that you can avoid those custom modification. And that is something Infor has been very proud of. So as I say, $3billion company. Last year they took a $2billion investment from Koch industries. Now that investment, largely went to recapitalising the company, the private equity guys probably took some money off the table as did the four, what I call the four horsemen. They were the four, sort of new founders of Infor including Charles Phillips, Pam Murphey who is still there and then two others Duncan Angove and Stephan who have left the company, so they have got some succession planning now. We saw a different, two new faces up on stage Soma and we're going to have some other folks on that we'll introduce you to. But so, now we're entering a new phase and it's the phase of what Charles Phillip's coined 'Human Potentials'. So big focus this year on human capital management, we heard that. Big focus on AI, they talked a lot about robotic process automation. I just had a meeting, last night at the airport in DCA with the head of marketing at an RPA company, UiPath, they are smoking hot, they just raised 225 million they have gone from 2 million to 200 million over night. And that space is exploding, it was interesting to hear Charles Phillips talk a lot today about Robotic process automation, RPA. Which is essentially software >> Break that down for me. >> So RPA is software robots and software robots are used to automate mundane tasks. Having machines do very specific tasks and you are seeing this a lot in financial services and a lot of back office automation. It's not physical robots moving around, it's basically software based processes that machines can do. Repetitive processes, that machines can do better. Machines don't get tired, so they can do these repetitive tasks, take that away those mundane tasks away from humans. You heard a lot of conversation about that today. You also heard a little competitive fire. So Oracle is now taking ads out against Infor, we've seen that. All the cabs here, many of the cabs have Oracle branding on them. So Oracle is paying attention to Infor. >> And they're right down the road here too, by the way. You know, I mean, Western Virginia not far so this is their backyard. >> Well congratulations Infor, Oracle is paying attention to you that means, must mean you're hurting them We've seen this before with others, I mean we certainly saw it, you know in past days with IBM, we see it extensively with Workday. We've seen some kind of, tit for tat with SalesForce, even though SalesForce is one of Oracles largest customers. So that's been kind of fun, fun to watch. And now Infor, so Infor clearly is doing some damage, to the traditional guys. Oracle, SAP, Workday maybe not so much Workday is growing like crazy, but Infor claims it is growing SaaS revenue 50% faster than Oracle's SaaS revenue. It's growing double the rate of SAP, and growing as fast almost as Workday, is kind of what it claims. And so, this whole enterprise resource planning, HCM, vertical market software, horizontal software the market is always been hot. It's a huge, huge market. Many, many, tens of billions, it's probably a hundred billion dollar TAM. And the big, big whales are of course Oracle and SAP, and then of course, SalesForce and you've seen the emergence of companies like ServiceNow which has quite a bit of different strategy but with Oracle, with Infor's sort of Oracle heritage a lot of people in the company came from Oracle so they know where the skeletons are buried they know how to compete, they have relationships with the customers. And they're offering some differentiation, as they say with those Micro verticals, the last mile, and the pure cloud model. Now, if you look at the income statement you'll see the SaaS portion of the business only represents about 25% of the revenues but remember, that's a ratable model. So you're only recognizing revenue as you're, as the months go on, so you're billing sort of monthly if you will, or recognizing monthly. And so, as a result that skews and dampens the effects of the SaaS software, I think from a booking stand point is probably much higher, proportion of bookings I would guess closer to 50% as they said they took $2billion last year from Koch industries. That $2billion dollars didn't really hit the balance sheets, they get about $330million on the balance sheet. And they've a lot of debt, because they you know did you know, it was a private equity you know leverage deal. They did a lot of acquisitions, so they've probably got about $5.7billions of what they call net debt, which presumably is debt after cash. So I would guess close to $6billion in debt. They're a quasi, they're not a public company they're a private company, but they act in many ways like a public company, I would suspect within the next couple of years here, if this kind of growth continues that you'll see an IPO, from Infor. Although, presumably Koch industries, we heard Koch on stage today, they said they've made $15billion in investments in technology companies. $2billion, this has to be one of their largest. And, but that's patient capital. They get the benefit of the cash flow, they can probably take dividends if they want to do that. And if they're smart, and they invest and they can take market share from Oracle and SAP and others, and gain share in the market space, they can do an IPO. They're revenues are $3billion, their valuation, they implied a valuation based on the Koch industries investment is $15billion. So if they can take that $15billion to $30billion 20 to 30 billion, there's going to be a nice return. >> You know I thought, what's interesting about Koch too they talked about this, it's certainly as you talked about 2billion right. They put the money in, but they're also, it's a symbiotic relationship, in that that Koch is using it's organization as a test lab. For a lot of products and services, that Infor is producing. And allowing them to refine that under the Koch umbrella before they take it out to the market place. So that's pretty true, I feel like seems to makes sense. You have a company that has 60,000 world wide employees, you're in dozens of countries, you've a chance to let them take their products to scale, in maybe a somewhat more friendlier, controlled environment before you take it out to the marketplace. That seems to make a lot of sense. >> Yeah, we heard the CIO of Koch industries today and I talked to him last year, and we were talking about some of the technical debt that they had, again going back to those custom modifications that I was talking about earlier. They were in this terrible virtuous cycle almost a negative virtuous cycle where they had so many custom mods that they couldn't make changes. So the applications were becoming voxalised, so they were becoming non competitive and that is the last thing that a line of business wants to hear, is 'hey we can't make the changes, right IT says no, we can't touch the code, it's working or changes take too long. They take months or sometimes years, to get to a major release and so as a result Koch was looking for ways to simplify its application portfolio and its application infrastructure. The other thing that Koch industries has brought is, you might notice on the show floor here, you see Accenture, you see Deloitte, you're seeing Grant Thornton, now these guys weren't really going after, or going hard after the Infor base before. I think, a company like Koch industries does a lot of business with these SIs and so I think Koch has introduced the SIs to the Infor opportunity and maybe nudged them a little bit and say 'hey as a big you know supplier to us, we're a big customer of yours we want you to pay attention to that opportunity and in earnest go look at ways to partner with Infor. And that's happened, my intelligence suggests there are many multi million dollar deals that are being capitalized by these big SIs and they do a ton of business with SAP and Oracle. So that's another positive in the tail wind that Koch industries, I think it's brought to the table. >> Alright, you mention human potential which is the real overarching theme of the show here this week. Again, we're here in Washington DC. I was just listening to Van Jones from CNN. One of their anchors and political contributor talking about that as his personal mantra but certainly that intersects with what Infor is talking about in terms of unlocking human potential and using technology to do that. Share a little light from Charles Phillip's perspective the key note address that he gave, in terms of how do they view human potential and unlocking it with the use of their services? >> Well we're going to have Charles Phillip's on so we'll certainly ask him that but Charles Phillip's is a guy with a lot of potential. And that he is realizing that potential >> Lot of track record too >> Exactly, this is an individual with a military background, he became I don't know if you know the story but he became a highly successful Wall Street analyst. He wrote the seminal piece in the 90s that said the software industry, is too many software players and is going to consolidate. Larry Ellison, prior to reading that used to denigrate competitors for writing cheques not code. Meaning, his competitors were acquiring companies instead of innovating. Well then, he went on a spending spree probably 30, 35 million dollars in acquisitions orchestrated by Charles Phillips. And they totally remade Oracle starting with a soft hostile takeover. And then now you see Oracle, obviously this Saas powerhouse with many many companies that were bought in. Charles Phillips left Oracle, became the CEO of Infor and we heard today, architected an entirely new strategy with a stack, they call this thing the Stack. I'll just go through this briefly, I wrote about it last year, in the WikiBon blog. They've got the Infor platform, the Infor OS and then it goes all the way up to AI, the last mile software, the cloud. They have this thing called GT nexus, which is a supply chain network and that where their IoT play fits. Then they bought a company last year called Birst, to do BI and analytics, and then on top of that is Coleman. So they've got this stack that they are basically infusing into their applications, and I will answer your question. Essentially what they want to do is, use automation and artificial intelligence to essentially coach people, worker, as they're doing their jobs. So we heard today, that there are more openings than there are unemployed >> Employees, yeah. >> And productivity is going down. So Infor, Charles Phillips wants to attack that problem through software and automation. How do you do that? Well, if you could use artificial intelligence to monitor people's KPIs, they didn't use those terms but that is essentially what they are doing. And then provide feedback on outcomes, 'hey you could have done it differently. You could have done it more quickly. The outcome could have been better if.' Also, analyzing other factors like the relationship for example, using data to analyze the relationship between say tenure or were you recently promoted or turn over on the productivity of for instance stores, retail stores for example. And so, you're seeing an infusion of AI and software and automation in to the entire application portfolio to unlock the human potential. That's one part of it, the other part of it is Charles Phillips is big on diversity, big on women in business, and so that's another angle that I am sure we are going to hear more about this week. >> I thought it was interesting too any time a show comes to Washington there is a reason. And it's generally federal sector based, policy based. There's a regulatory undertone of some kind. And it was addressed somewhat on the key note stage here this morning. But the idea, the notion was that federal regulation and federal mandates, whatever, can't keep up the pace. They just can't, and it really is up to the tech sector because it works on a much different time frame, right? I mean, changes are made by the minute, whereas policy gets shaped by the year. You know, up on the hill here, not far about 3 miles 2 miles from here. So, the tech sector's responsibility in that regard in terms of being more diverse, of having more inclusivity, of looking at environmental considerations. All these things, and of unleashing human potential. And not at making a government do that. Not letting a regulation do that. That certainly plays in the Infor's thinking as well, I would think? >> Yes, so first of all we were down here at the AWS public sector event in June. And there were ten thousand people here. So AWS has a huge presence here. Infor and AWS are big time partners. And remember the CIA was the first deal, the first cloud deal, that AWS did, they won. IBM contested it, the judge eviscerated IBM in his ruling. Basically saying they were gaming the system. They were purposely misinterpreting the RFP. Amazon won hands down, it was a huge victory for Amazon. Forced IBM to go out and capitulate and purchase Softlayer for $2billion. I believe that only helps a company like Infor who has decided to be all public cloud, with AWS and drafting off AWS' deep ties to various government agencies, in the GovCloud. So for instance, AWS was first with fedramp. First with a lot of different certifications and security hurdles. And so Infor can just draft off of that. The CIA, again a big account, we heard the CIA talk in June about how security on the worst day of cloud is better than its client server applications on their best day. And so, I suspect Infor is doing business with the CIA although that's not come out publicly. But I would think that there is an advantage Infor has because of that AWS relationship. And that makes DC all the much more important for them. Well, we are at Inforum 18, we have a full 2 days of scheduling for you. Great guest coming up here on theCUBE. I am with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls We'll continue here on theCUBE live from DC right after this break.

hi Jeff Rick here with the cube welcome were excited to to get out and talk to startups people that are founding companies when they come out of stealth mode we're in a great position that we get a chance to talk to him early and we're really excited to have a cute conversation with karthik rao the founder and CEO of signal effects just coming out of stealth congratulations thank you Jeff so how long you've been working behind the scenes trying to get this thing going yeah we've been at it for two years now so two years a founder and I started the company in February of 2013 so excited to finally launch and make our product available to the world all right excellent congratulations that's always a great thing we've launched a few companies on the cube so hopefully this will be another great success so talk a little bit about first off you and your journey we have a lot of entrepreneurs that watch a show and I think it's it's an interesting topic as to how do you get to the place where you basically found in launched a company yeah absolutely I started my career at a company at a cloud company before cloud really exists this is a market there's a company called loud cloud oh yeah Marc Andreessen right recent horse or two of the company and we were trying to do what the public cloud vendors are doing today before the market was really all that big and before the technologies really existed to do it well but that was my first introduction to cloud o came out of college and that's where I met my co-founder Phillip Lou as well Phil and I were both working on the monitoring products at loud cloud from there I ended up at VMware for a good run of about seven years where I ran product had always wanted to start a company and then a couple of years ago Phil and I thought the timing was right and we had a great idea and decided to go build signal effects together okay so what was kind of the genesis of the idea you know a lot of times it's a cool technology looking for a problem to solve a lot of times it's a problem that you know and if I only had one of these they would solve my problems so how did the how did that whole process work yeah it was rooted in personal experience my co-founder phil was at Facebook for several years and was responsible for building the monitoring systems at Facebook and through our personal experience and what we'd seen in the marketplace we had a fundamental belief and a vision that monitoring for modern applications is now an analytics problem modern applications are distributed they're not you know a single database running on is system you know even small companies now have hundreds of VMs running on public cloud infrastructure and so the only way to really understand what's happening across all of these distributed applications is to collect the data centrally and use analytics and so that was our fundamental insight when we started signal effects what we saw in the marketplace was that most of the monitoring technologies haven't really evolved in the past 15 or 20 years and they're still largely designed for traditional static enterprise applications where if you get an alert when an individual node is down or a static thresholds been passed that's enough but that doesn't really work for modern apps because they're so distributed right if one node out of your twenty nodes is having a problem it doesn't necessarily mean that your application is having a trough having a problem and so the only way to really draw that insight is to collect the data and do analytics on it and that's what signal okay really because that distributed nature of modern of modern apps and modern architecture yes there are three things that are fundamentally different number one modern applications are distributed in nature and so you really have to look at patterns across many systems number two they're changing for more frequently than traditional enterprise apps because they're hosted for the most part route applications so you can push changes out every day if you want to and then third they're typically operated by product organizations and not IT organizations so you have developers or DevOps organizations that are actually operating the software and those three changes are quite substantial and require a new set of products right and so the other guys are just they're still kind of in the you know fire off the pager alert something is going down it's very noisy yes when you're firing off alerts every time an individual alert goes off when you've got thousands of a DM and we all know that the trend these days is towards micro services architectures you know small componentized you know containers or VMs and so you don't have to have a very sophisticated large application to have a lot of systems it's so do you fit into other existing kind of infrastructure monitoring systems or kind of infrastructure management systems so I'm sure you know it's another tool right guys got to manage a lot of stuff how does that work yeah we are focused on the analytics part of the problem okay so we collect data from any sources so our customers are typically sending us data you know infrastructure data that they're collecting using their own agents we have agents that we can provide to collect it a lot of the developers are instrumenting their own metrics that they care about so for example they might care about latency metrics and knowing Layton sees by customer by region so they'll send us all that data and then we provide a very rich analytics solution and platform for them to monitor all of this and and in real time detect patterns and anomalies so you just said you have customers but you coming out stealth so you have some beta customers already yes we have great customers already now just beta customers right are great console customers awesome yes congratulation thank you very much they're very excited about our product and we you know they range from small startups to fairly large web companies that are sending in tens of billions of data points every day into signal effects right right and again in the interest of sharing the knowledge with all of our entrepreneurs out there you know when did they get involved in the process how much of the kind of product development definition did they did they participate in you said you've been at it for a couple years yeah we've had a lot of conviction about this space from the very beginning because we our team had solved this problem for themselves and in previous experiences but we did include we've been in beta for about six months but better to launch and so over the course of those six months we recalibrated based on feedback we got from customers but on the whole we you know are we philosophy and the approach that we took was was pretty much validated by the early customers that we engaged with okay excellent and so um I assume your venture funded we are can you can you talk about who your who your backers are yes we raised twenty eight and a half million dollars eight million dollars yeah twenty-eight point five million dollars from andreessen horowitz okay with Ben Horowitz on our board okay and Charles River ventures with a lurker on our board and how big are you now time in terms of the company well we're just getting started now right at this is 1 million all that money - well we we've got a great group of engineers or our company is you know and still in the few dozen people stage at this point ok we're planning to invest aggressively in building out our team both on R&D and on the go-to-market side this excellent once you detect patterns and anomalies what's kind of the action steps you work with with other systems to swap stuff out together because now I hear like it's these huge data centers they don't swap out this they don't swap out machines they swap out racks it's soon they'll be swapping out data centers so what are some of the prescriptive things that people are using they couldn't do before by using your yeah I'll give you a great example of that one of our early beta customers they do code pushes very aggressively you know once a week they'll push out changes into their environment and they had a signal effects console open which and we're a real-time solution so every second they're seeing updates of what was happening in their infrastructure they pushed out their code and they immediately detected a memory leak and they saw their memory usage just growing immediately after they did their code Bush and they were able to roll it back before any of their users noticed any issues and so that's an example of these days a lot of problems introduced into environments are human driven problems it's a code push it's a new user gets onboard it or a new customer gets onboard and all of a sudden there's 10x the load onto your systems and so when you have a product like signal effects where you can in real time understand everything that's happening in your environment you can quickly detect these changes and determine what the appropriate next step is and that appropriate next step will depend on your application and who you are and what you're building right so our key philosophies we get out of your way but we give you all of the insights and the tools to figure out what's happening in your arm right it's interesting that really kind of two comes from from your partners you know kind of Facebook experience right because they're pushing out new code all the time when there's no fast and break things right right exactly and then you're at VMware so you know kind of the enterprise site so what if you could speak a little bit about kind of this consumerization of IT on the enterprise side and not so much the way that the look and feel of the thing works but really taking best practices from a consumer IT companies like Facebook like Amazon that really changed the game because it used to be the big enterprise software guys had the best apps now it's it's really flipped for people like Google and Netflix and those guys have the best apps and even more importantly they drive the expectation of the behavior of an application every Enterprise is finally getting it and then are they really embracing it we're definitely seeing a growth in new application development I think you know when I spend a lot of time talking to CIOs at enterprises as well and they all understand that in order to be competitive you have to invest in applications it's not enough to just view IT as a cost center and they're all beginning to invest in application development and in some cases these are digital media teams that are separate from traditional IT and other places it's you know they're they're more closely tied together but we absolutely see a kind of growth in application development in many of these end up looking a lot like the development teams that we see here in the Bay Area you know and companies that are building staffs and consumer cloud apps yeah exciting time so you should coming out of stealth what's kind of your your next kind of milestone that you're looking forward to you have a big some announcements you got show you're gonna kind of watch out we're we're we're gonna see you make a big splash well for us it's it's steadily building our business and so we hope to you know we're launching now and we've got a lot of great customers already and hope to sign on several more and help our customers build great applications about that's our focus again congratulations two years that's a big development project Karthik thank growl the founder and CEO of signal effects just launching their company coming out of stealth we'd love to get them on the cube share the knowledge with you guys both the people that are trying to start your own company take a little inspiration as well as as the people that need the service tomorrow with the cloud with a modern application thanks a lot thank you Jeff thank you you're watching Jeff Rick cube conversation see you next time