>>Good morning fellow nerds and welcome back to AWS Reinvent. We are live from the show floor here in Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with my fabulous co-host John Furrier. Day two keynotes are rolling. >>Yeah. What do you thinking this? This is the day where everything comes, so the core gets popped off the bottle, all the announcements start flowing out tomorrow. You hear machine learning from swee lot more in depth around AI probably. And then developers with Verner Vos, the CTO who wrote the seminal paper in in early two thousands around web service that becames. So again, just another great year of next level cloud. Big discussion of data in the keynote bulk of the time was talking about data and business intelligence, business transformation easier. Is that what people want? They want the easy button and we're gonna talk a lot about that in this segment. I'm really looking forward to this interview. >>Easy button. We all want the >>Easy, we want the easy button. >>I love that you brought up champagne. It really feels like a champagne moment for the AWS community as a whole. Being here on the floor feels a bit like the before times. I don't want to jinx it. Our next guest, Scott Castle, from Si Sense. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you feeling? How's the show for you going so far? Oh, >>This is exciting. It's really great to see the changes that are coming in aws. It's great to see the, the excitement and the activity around how we can do so much more with data, with compute, with visualization, with reporting. It's fun. >>It is very fun. I just got a note. I think you have the coolest last name of anyone we've had on the show so far, castle. Oh, thank you. I'm here for it. I'm sure no one's ever said that before, but I'm so just in case our audience isn't familiar, tell us about >>Soy Sense is an embedded analytics platform. So we're used to take the queries and the analysis that you can power off of Aurora and Redshift and everything else and bring it to the end user in the applications they already know how to use. So it's all about embedding insights into tools. >>Embedded has been a, a real theme. Nobody wants to, it's I, I keep using the analogy of multiple tabs. Nobody wants to have to leave where they are. They want it all to come in there. Yep. Now this space is older than I think everyone at this table bis been around since 1958. Yep. How do you see Siente playing a role in the evolution there of we're in a different generation of analytics? >>Yeah, I mean, BI started, as you said, 58 with Peter Lu's paper that he wrote for IBM kind of get became popular in the late eighties and early nineties. And that was Gen one bi, that was Cognos and Business Objects and Lotus 1 23 think like green and black screen days. And the way things worked back then is if you ran a business and you wanted to get insights about that business, you went to it with a big check in your hand and said, Hey, can I have a report? And they'd come back and here's a report. And it wasn't quite right. You'd go back and cycle, cycle, cycle and eventually you'd get something. And it wasn't great. It wasn't all that accurate, but it's what we had. And then that whole thing changed in about two, 2004 when self-service BI became a thing. And the whole idea was instead of going to it with a big check in your hand, how about you make your own charts? >>And that was totally transformative. Everybody started doing this and it was great. And it was all built on semantic modeling and having very fast databases and data warehouses. Here's the problem, the tools to get to those insights needed to serve both business users like you and me and also power users who could do a lot more complex analysis and transformation. And as the tools got more complicated, the barrier to entry for everyday users got higher and higher and higher to the point where now you look, look at Gartner and Forester and IDC this year. They're all reporting in the same statistic. Between 10 and 20% of knowledge workers have learned business intelligence and everybody else is just waiting in line for a data analyst or a BI analyst to get a report for them. And that's why the focus on embedded is suddenly showing up so strong because little startups have been putting analytics into their products. People are seeing, oh my, this doesn't have to be hard. It can be easy, it can be intuitive, it can be native. Well why don't I have that for my whole business? So suddenly there's a lot of focus on how do we embed analytics seamlessly? How do we embed the investments people make in machine learning in data science? How do we bring those back to the users who can actually operationalize that? Yeah. And that's what Tysons does. Yeah. >>Yeah. It's interesting. Savannah, you know, data processing used to be what the IT department used to be called back in the day data processing. Now data processing is what everyone wants to do. There's a ton of data we got, we saw the keynote this morning at Adam Lesky. There was almost a standing of vision, big applause for his announcement around ML powered forecasting with Quick Site Cube. My point is people want automation. They want to have this embedded semantic layer in where they are not having all the process of ETL or all the muck that goes on with aligning the data. All this like a lot of stuff that goes on. How do you make it easier? >>Well, to be honest, I, I would argue that they don't want that. I think they, they think they want that, cuz that feels easier. But what users actually want is they want the insight, right? When they are about to make a decision. If you have a, you have an ML powered forecast, Andy Sense has had that built in for years, now you have an ML powered forecast. You don't need it two weeks before or a week after in a report somewhere. You need it when you're about to decide do I hire more salespeople or do I put a hundred grand into a marketing program? It's putting that insight at the point of decision that's important. And you don't wanna be waiting to dig through a lot of infrastructure to find it. You just want it when you need it. What's >>The alternative from a time standpoint? So real time insight, which is what you're saying. Yep. What's the alternative? If they don't have that, what's >>The alternative? Is what we are currently seeing in the market. You hire a bunch of BI analysts and data analysts to do the work for you and you hire enough that your business users can ask questions and get answers in a timely fashion. And by the way, if you're paying attention, there's not enough data analysts in the whole world to do that. Good luck. I am >>Time to get it. I really empathize with when I, I used to work for a 3D printing startup and I can, I have just, I mean, I would call it PTSD flashbacks of standing behind our BI guy with my list of queries and things that I wanted to learn more about our e-commerce platform in our, in our marketplace and community. And it would take weeks and I mean this was only in 2012. We're not talking 1958 here. We're talking, we're talking, well, a decade in, in startup years is, is a hundred years in the rest of the world life. But I think it's really interesting. So talk to us a little bit about infused and composable analytics. Sure. And how does this relate to embedded? Yeah. >>So embedded analytics for a long time was I want to take a dashboard I built in a BI environment. I wanna lift it and shift it into some other application so it's close to the user and that is the right direction to go. But going back to that statistic about how, hey, 10 to 20% of users know how to do something with that dashboard. Well how do you reach the rest of users? Yeah. When you think about breaking that up and making it more personalized so that instead of getting a dashboard embedded in a tool, you get individual insights, you get data visualizations, you get controls, maybe it's not even actually a visualization at all. Maybe it's just a query result that influences the ordering of a list. So like if you're a csm, you have a list of accounts in your book of business, you wanna rank those by who's priorities the most likely to churn. >>Yeah. You get that. How do you get that most likely to churn? You get it from your BI system. So how, but then the question is, how do I insert that back into the application that CSM is using? So that's what we talk about when we talk about Infusion. And SI started the infusion term about two years ago and now it's being used everywhere. We see it in marketing from Click and Tableau and from Looker just recently did a whole launch on infusion. The idea is you break this up into very small digestible pieces. You put those pieces into user experiences where they're relevant and when you need them. And to do that, you need a set of APIs, SDKs, to program it. But you also need a lot of very solid building blocks so that you're not building this from scratch, you're, you're assembling it from big pieces. >>And so what we do aty sense is we've got machine learning built in. We have an LQ built in. We have a whole bunch of AI powered features, including a knowledge graph that helps users find what else they need to know. And we, we provide those to our customers as building blocks so that they can put those into their own products, make them look and feel native and get that experience. In fact, one of the things that was most interesting this last couple of couple of quarters is that we built a technology demo. We integrated SI sensee with Office 365 with Google apps for business with Slack and MS teams. We literally just threw an Nlq box into Excel and now users can go in and say, Hey, which of my sales people in the northwest region are on track to meet their quota? And they just get the table back in Excel. They can build charts of it and PowerPoint. And then when they go to their q do their QBR next week or week after that, they just hit refresh to get live data. It makes it so much more digestible. And that's the whole point of infusion. It's bigger than just, yeah. The iframe based embedding or the JavaScript embedding we used to talk about four or five years >>Ago. APIs are very key. You brought that up. That's gonna be more of the integration piece. How does embedable and composable work as more people start getting on board? It's kind of like a Yeah. A flywheel. Yes. What, how do you guys see that progression? Cause everyone's copying you. We see that, but this is a, this means it's standard. People want this. Yeah. What's next? What's the, what's that next flywheel benefit that you guys coming out with >>Composability, fundamentally, if you read the Gartner analysis, right, they, when they talk about composable, they're talking about building pre-built analytics pieces in different business units for, for different purposes. And being able to plug those together. Think of like containers and services that can, that can talk to each other. You have a composition platform that can pull it into a presentation layer. Well, the presentation layer is where I focus. And so the, so for us, composable means I'm gonna have formulas and queries and widgets and charts and everything else that my, that my end users are gonna wanna say almost minority report style. If I'm not dating myself with that, I can put this card here, I can put that chart here. I can set these filters here and I get my own personalized view. But based on all the investments my organization's made in data and governance and quality so that all that infrastructure is supporting me without me worrying much about it. >>Well that's productivity on the user side. Talk about the software angle development. Yeah. Is your low code, no code? Is there coding involved? APIs are certainly the connective tissue. What's the impact to Yeah, the >>Developer. Oh. So if you were working on a traditional legacy BI platform, it's virtually impossible because this is an architectural thing that you have to be able to do. Every single tool that can make a chart has an API to embed that chart somewhere. But that's not the point. You need the life cycle automation to create models, to modify models, to create new dashboards and charts and queries on the fly. And be able to manage the whole life cycle of that. So that in your composable application, when you say, well I want chart and I want it to go here and I want it to do this and I want it to be filtered this way you can interact with the underlying platform. And most importantly, when you want to use big pieces like, Hey, I wanna forecast revenue for the next six months. You don't want it popping down into Python and writing that yourself. >>You wanna be able to say, okay, here's my forecasting algorithm. Here are the inputs, here's the dimensions, and then go and just put it somewhere for me. And so that's what you get withy sense. And there aren't any other analytics platforms that were built to do that. We were built that way because of our architecture. We're an API first product. But more importantly, most of the legacy BI tools are legacy. They're coming from that desktop single user, self-service, BI environment. And it's a small use case for them to go embedding. And so composable is kind of out of reach without a complete rebuild. Right? But with SI senses, because our bread and butter has always been embedding, it's all architected to be API first. It's integrated for software developers with gi, but it also has all those low code and no code capabilities for business users to do the minority report style thing. And it's assemble endless components into a workable digital workspace application. >>Talk about the strategy with aws. You're here at the ecosystem, you're in the ecosystem, you're leading product and they have a strategy. We know their strategy, they have some stuff, but then the ecosystem goes faster and ends up making a better product in most of the cases. If you compare, I know they'll take me to school on that, but I, that's pretty much what we report on. Mongo's doing a great job. They have databases. So you kind of see this balance. How are you guys playing in the ecosystem? What's the, what's the feedback? What's it like? What's going on? >>AWS is actually really our best partner. And the reason why is because AWS has been clear for many, many years. They build componentry, they build services, they build infrastructure, they build Redshift, they build all these different things, but they need, they need vendors to pull it all together into something usable. And fundamentally, that's what Cient does. I mean, we didn't invent sequel, right? We didn't invent jackal or dle. These are not, these are underlying analytics technologies, but we're taking the bricks out of the briefcase. We're assembling it into something that users can actually deploy for their use cases. And so for us, AWS is perfect because they focus on the hard bits. The the underlying technologies we assemble those make them usable for customers. And we get the distribution. And of course AWS loves that. Cause it drives more compute and it drives more, more consumption. >>How much do they pay you to say that >>Keynote, >>That was a wonderful pitch. That's >>Absolutely, we always say, hey, they got a lot of, they got a lot of great goodness in the cloud, but they're not always the best at the solutions and that they're trying to bring out, and you guys are making these solutions for customers. Yeah. That resonates with what they got with Amazon. For >>Example, we, last year we did a, a technology demo with Comprehend where we put comprehend inside of a semantic model and we would compile it and then send it back to Redshift. And it takes comprehend, which is a very cool service, but you kind of gotta be a coder to use it. >>I've been hear a lot of hype about the semantic layer. What is, what is going on with that >>Semantec layer is what connects the actual data, the tables in your database with how they're connected and what they mean so that a user like you or me who's saying I wanna bar chart with revenue over time can just work with revenue and time. And the semantic layer translates between what we did and what the database knows >>About. So it speaks English and then they converts it to data language. It's >>Exactly >>Right. >>Yeah. It's facilitating the exchange of information. And, and I love this. So I like that you actually talked about it in the beginning, the knowledge map and helping people figure out what they might not know. Yeah. I, I am not a bi analyst by trade and I, I don't always know what's possible to know. Yeah. And I think it's really great that you're doing that education piece. I'm sure, especially working with AWS companies, depending on their scale, that's gotta be a big part of it. How much is the community play a role in your product development? >>It's huge because I'll tell you, one of the challenges in embedding is someone who sees an amazing experience in outreach or in seismic. And to say, I want that. And I want it to be exactly the way my product is built, but I don't wanna learn a lot. And so you, what you want do is you want to have a community of people who have already built things who can help lead the way. And our community, we launched a new version of the SES community in early 2022 and we've seen a 450% growth in the c in that community. And we've gone from an average of one response, >>450%. I just wanna put a little exclamation point on that. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. We, >>We've tripled our organic activity. So now if you post this Tysons community, it used to be, you'd get one response maybe from us, maybe from from a customer. Now it's up to three. And it's continuing to trend up. So we're, it's >>Amazing how much people are willing to help each other. If you just get in the platform, >>Do it. It's great. I mean, business is so >>Competitive. I think it's time for the, it's time. I think it's time. Instagram challenge. The reels on John. So we have a new thing. We're gonna run by you. Okay. We just call it the bumper sticker for reinvent. Instead of calling it the Instagram reels. If we're gonna do an Instagram reel for 30 seconds, what would be your take on what's going on this year at Reinvent? What you guys are doing? What's the most important story that you would share with folks on Instagram? >>You know, I think it's really what, what's been interesting to me is the, the story with Redshift composable, sorry. No, composable, Redshift Serverless. Yeah. One of the things I've been >>Seeing, we know you're thinking about composable a lot. Yes. Right? It's, it's just, it's in there, it's in your mouth. Yeah. >>So the fact that Redshift Serverless is now kind becoming the defacto standard, it changes something for, for my customers. Cuz one of the challenges with Redshift that I've seen in, in production is if as people use it more, you gotta get more boxes. You have to manage that. The fact that serverless is now available, it's, it's the default means it now people are just seeing Redshift as a very fast, very responsive repository. And that plays right into the story I'm telling cuz I'm telling them it's not that hard to put some analysis on top of things. So for me it's, it's a, maybe it's a narrow Instagram reel, but it's an >>Important one. Yeah. And that makes it better for you because you get to embed that. Yeah. And you get access to better data. Faster data. Yeah. Higher quality, relevant, updated. >>Yep. Awesome. As it goes into that 80% of knowledge workers, they have a consumer great expectation of experience. They're expecting that five ms response time. They're not waiting 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 seconds. They're not trained on theola expectations. And so it's, it matters a lot. >>Final question for you. Five years out from now, if things progress the way they're going with more innovation around data, this front end being very usable, semantic layer kicks in, you got the Lambda and you got serverless kind of coming in, helping out along the way. What's the experience gonna look like for a user? What's it in your mind's eye? What's that user look like? What's their experience? >>I, I think it shifts almost every role in a business towards being a quantitative one. Talking about, Hey, this is what I saw. This is my hypothesis and this is what came out of it. So here's what we should do next. I, I'm really excited to see that sort of scientific method move into more functions in the business. Cuz for decades it's been the domain of a few people like me doing strategy, but now I'm seeing it in CSMs, in support people and sales engineers and line engineers. That's gonna be a big shift. Awesome. >>Thank >>You Scott. Thank you so much. This has been a fantastic session. We wish you the best at si sense. John, always pleasure to share the, the stage with you. Thank you to everybody who's attuning in, tell us your thoughts. We're always eager to hear what, what features have got you most excited. And as you know, we will be live here from Las Vegas at reinvent from the show floor 10 to six all week except for Friday. We'll give you Friday off with John Furrier. My name's Savannah Peterson. We're the cube, the the, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Good morning. It's the cube live from Las Vegas. This is day four of our coverage at AWS reinvent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. We have had since Monday two live sets two remote studios over 100 guests on the program. This is a 10th annual reinvent. We're talking about the next decade of cloud innovation and we're pleased to welcome Ashley Kramer, the chief product officer and chief marketing officer of Sisense to the program. Welcome Ashley, thanks for having me today. So you own marketing and product. Tell me a little bit about your role. Obviously that's done. >>It's a big role. It has a big role, but I think as the analytics ecosystem has evolved, it makes sense to bring the product you're building the platform you're building and the messaging that you're taking to market together in one. And so I've been in size since almost two years, and I am responsible for both the messaging and the building of the product. >>Awesome. Talk to me a little bit about the next generation of business intelligence. Define Gen-Z one, two and where we are with three. >>Yeah. So when we think about the generations of analytics and we think about how the world is evolved, we're here clearly at a cloud conference, data apps, and the way people work has evolved over time. And I think analytics hasn't quite kept up and I'll explain what I mean about that. The first generation of analytics was really about, you know, that we're talking by the way, late nineties, early two thousands, big on-premise servers of data, things that would make people here sort of cringe, right? And the way to extract value was to put an analytics server right next to it, go wait in line, ask her it, Hey, I need a report. And then wait a few weeks. That report gets delivered. It's the wrong data. It's now stale. You've got to go get back in line, enter gen two, which by the way, I was a part of in my career at Tableau. >>And what we said was let's put data at everybody's fingertips. Let's allow people via desktop tool to drag and drop and build the perfect, beautiful dashboard. And then we can deploy it to everybody and we will break down that barrier to it. And that was successful. But the one thing that we didn't understand was not, everybody's an analyst, not everybody's data literate and dashboards could be very, very intimidating to the everyday worker. And so now we're on the cusp of what we call gen three and sysynced is well-positioned to really nail this market, which is make data invisible, make analytics invisible, and bring it to where people are. And that's what we consider gen three. And I of course can talk about that for hours. So I'd love to talk more about it. >>So are the lines blurred between what people think of as artificial intelligence and BI, because you're talking about, um, you know, making this invisible or transparent, you know, frictionless access, um, are you talking recommendations or just a presentation of raw information? How are those two topics, interleaved >>Talking both. And so what's, what's really beautiful about this is the dashboard doesn't have to go away, but you have to break it apart and you have to make it less intimidating, more approachable, more understandable, which is where AI comes in natural language generation, natural language querying maybe for some people, maybe for a doctor, they want to see the data presented in plain text, plain English. Great. Let them do that. And so AI is a big, big piece of this gen three. When we think about where BI and analytics is evolving to. So >>Like it, from a customization perspective, you're going to be able to allow people in healthcare, finance, marketing, sales, operations products, be able to have data at their fingertips when they need it. Because one of the things that we learned in the pandemic is that access to real-time data is no longer a nice to have it's required. But to your point, if it's intimidating or if it's inaccessible, or if it's too complicated, it's not useful. >>That's right. And what we also learned during the pandemic is people are busy and they don't have time to change what they're doing. They don't have time to leave their everyday workflow and process to go look for something. They don't have time to look for an unnatural experience and try to interpret what it says. So customization is a huge piece of this, make it look and feel the way that a healthcare worker needs it to look and feel, make it look and feel the way that, you know, a construction worker makes it as part of their everyday job. And that's a core piece of gen three as well. >>What are some of the things that you guys are doing with AWS? Obviously, AWS, very, very customer focused. They always talk about working backwards from the customer, really this customer obsession. What are some of the things that you guys are working on together that your joint customers will benefit from? >>Fun fact, I was Amazonian as part of my career. So I grew up with Amazon in the early days of AWS. And we are very close partners with them from two really big perspectives. The first is the data's moving there, all of the data, particularly things like red shift. And that is a perfect place for size sense to sit right on top of that data, query it live, bring that and extract it to people in the way that they need it to consume. It really make data-driven decisions. The second piece is, um, and we saw a great keynote yesterday by Swami, which is the AI piece of the story, the comprehend, the Lexio, you know, really bringing to people, the data and the information and the way they need, and that all plugs into the size sense experience. And we can be that visual front end layer on top of all of those services. >>So where you sit because of your purview, looking at product marketing, and then let's, let's make, let's make the third point in the triangle, the customer always what, from your perspective, because you're thinking in terms of product customer requirements, and then you're thinking about how do you get the message across to make sure people understand what you're doing? What does a delighted customer sound like to you? What makes you smile? When someone says, Hey, Ashley, we have this customer who absolutely loves us. And these are the things they love about us. What does, what does that sound like? >>Really a very, very simple thing to answer because through my career too often, and I've read products at all of the companies I've worked for, you sell these big deals and you help them be successful with one use case. And you come back a year later in three people in the organization are actually using that solution to make data-driven decisions. So my perfect customer is, you know, we take them by the hand, we help them deploy that we come back a year later and the entire organization, all of their customers are using the solution because we've made it more approachable, more personalized and less intimidating. >>So what's the opposite of shelf ware. That's what you just described >>The opposite of shelfware and that breaks down every stat you see out there, there's a really widely known one that, um, less than 30% of organizations are actually successful with their analytics solutions. And my theory, my thesis and the research that we've done is that's exactly why it's too intimidating. It's too clunky and it's too disjointed. >>So talk to me, I, one of the things I think is the best validation of brand can get is the voice of the customer. I agree with you that it's, it's exciting when you, cause there's, there's so many, there's so many tools and you just mentioned the stat, um, in terms of adoption, but share with us a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what you're talking about. That gen three BI customizable, personable, what customer comes to mind are customers. You have. >>So one of my favorites is a company called outreach and what outreach outreach caters to is sales. It's, you know, early sales, sales enablement, helping people understand which customers should I go target. And should I go sell to, these are not analysts using the platform. And when outreach came to us, they said, we want data and analytics to drive our experience for all of our customers. But these are young salespeople. They can't just be looking at dashboards. And so what we've done with them is we were actually the AI engine that drives the experience. And as that BDR, ADR SDR gets in there, they're actually using analytics to figure out who to call what account is hot, what to do next, and right. They're actioning right in the experience. And they have no clue that they're will using data. And that's okay. And they're optimized. They're more efficient at their job because science is powering that experience. >>So they could be in Salesforce and accessing this, like under the covers, not even knowing it, they have no idea >>Exactly >>What they're empowered with BI AI to be able to make decisions. >>And they're becoming better at their jobs because they're using data and they're not learning a new skill set because they don't have time. There's no time. >>That's a great point. One of the other points that we've heard a lot, the last three days is every company has to become a data company. One thing to say it whole other can of worms, right? To actually enable it. Because to your point earlier, you have access to data it's confusing or it's stale. There's a competitor right here. Ready to take over. Talk to me about how your customer conversations have changed, especially in the last 22 months about how do we become data really? Data-driven, >>That's, that's interesting because if you would've asked me two, three years ago, I would have given you this big pitch on, well, we need to go in and help them build this culture of data and analytics, right? We're going to go in and help them. That has changed. What we need to do now is accept that building. That whole culture is too hard to do. It requires people to go beyond their job and really learn a new skill set. So what we do is we make every company, a data company by not necessarily making them really realize that they're using analytics and data. We're making it personalized. We're removing the nuances that come with building the state of literacy culture. So yes, you still need to build the culture around it and have the support, but you need it to be less intimidating and you need it to just be part of the everyday workflow, the everyday process, the everyday experience, regardless of job title. There's another interesting stat that there's over 1 billion knowledge workers out there that are underserved. That's the barrier we need to break down. Next analysts are happy. Data scientists are happy. They have what they need. How do we get what they're doing to those 1 billion plus underserved knowledge workers. >>So when you're in customer conversations and they're like, Ashley, help us figure this out. >>You say, we go in and we show, you know, we, we figure out what their business case is. And they very often say, okay, let's start with a big, huge dashboard. Step them back and say, what are you really trying to solve? Okay. You want that doctor to be more efficient? You want to triage more properly, maybe right there within your system, within your medical system. We're just going to pop, you know, we're going to pull data out of red shift and we're just going to pop some insights there. Some recommendations, as you mentioned earlier, some plain text, we'll give you a search experience so you can search, you know, what beds are open and it will bring it back to you the way that you understand how to work, you don't have to change. >>And that's critical because one of the things that we talk about all the time is change management, cultural change. It's really hard to do, especially given the dynamics of the environment that we're in. People are still scattered, working from anywhere. That's going to persist for a while. We need to meet them where they are >>Absolutely a hundred percent nailed it. And I'm going to steal that in my marketing material. Thank you. I'm a marketer trademarks. Um, but absolutely meet them where they are. And you know, everybody wants to evolve. Everybody wants to upscale and you can help them, but don't expect it to happen overnight. And don't expect they're going to take it on as a second job because their core job function is the most critical. >>It's interesting from a marketer's perspective. Um, it's always great to have people running around wearing size sense, hoodies on the customer site what's even better is having them using the product. And maybe they don't even know as long as key stakeholders in the organization knows so that you can drive, you know, drive into the market. But is there anything disheartening about sort of being toiling in obscurity at times? >>It is the hardest part of the CMO hat that I wear is you both are very likely using size sense in something that you're doing and you have no idea. And that is a brand's nightmare. So yes, checking my pockets. In fact, we are giving away Fanny packs. And as soon as I'm done, I will be over here with two Fanny packs for you. Apparently that's the new thing. That's what the kids are doing. Um, but it is very hard. It's um, we have to do more because lots of people are using size sense and actually lots of people at this conference right now, a lot of these vendors have size sense embedded, and they don't necessarily know they're using it. It's a double-edged sword though, >>Because you're saying, you know, the whole point is making analytics invisible. So, but it is, but I'll take the Fanny pack. >>I'll be out. Don't worry about that. Don't you worry? >>So here we are wrapping up 10th annual at reinvent. You were an Amazonian. So you've been to many of these, obviously the first one in two years, there's nothing like the conversations that are going on behind it. There's nothing like an in-person interview to have a really a conversation about the technology. What are some of the things that have you heard at the conference that excite you going into 2022? >>My excitement going in is the focus that everybody's putting just beyond what's next beyond data like the AI, right? The AI perspective of everything, the way that AWS is evolving their data story, lots of serverless spoken by Adam in the first day. And I think there's really, really big things coming. You see the three big clouds competing and making each other better and better. You see vendors like size sense working cross-cloud because everybody has something best in class. And so I am one very excited to be in person and to be shaking hands and hugging friends that I have not seen except over zoom in two years. But I'm really excited for the direction. Particularly AWS is taking the data ecosystem inside sense plans to be a core part of that. >>Awesome. It's exciting. The amount of innovation that has gone on is we think, you know, the next 10 years is we're going to see far more in the next, probably five than we did in the previous 10. Actually. Thank you so much for joining us, talking to us about science. We'll have to, we'll have to think about that. Well, when we get our Fanny pack, so we can talk about science, how we're using it, but awesome. To be able to bring analytics to everyone so that it is invisible, usable, and we can actually extract value from data in real time. Thank you for >>Having me today. Our >>Pleasure for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube, the global leader in live tech coverage.

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from The Cube at ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The reverse momentum in tech stocks caused by rising interest rates, less attractive discounted cash flow models, and more tepid forward guidance, can be easily measured by public market valuations. And while there's lots of discussion about the impact on private companies and cash runway and 409A valuations, measuring the performance of non-public companies isn't as easy. IPOs have dried up and public statements by private companies, of course, they accentuate the good and they kind of hide the bad. Real data, unless you're an insider, is hard to find. Hello and welcome to this week's "Wikibon Cube Insights" powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we unlock some of the secrets that non-public, emerging tech companies may or may not be sharing. And we do this by introducing you to a capability from ETR that we've not exposed you to over the past couple of years, it's called the Emerging Technologies Survey, and it is packed with sentiment data and performance data based on surveys of more than a thousand CIOs and IT buyers covering more than 400 companies. And we've invited back our colleague, Erik Bradley of ETR to help explain the survey and the data that we're going to cover today. Erik, this survey is something that I've not personally spent much time on, but I'm blown away at the data. It's really unique and detailed. First of all, welcome. Good to see you again. >> Great to see you too, Dave, and I'm really happy to be talking about the ETS or the Emerging Technology Survey. Even our own clients of constituents probably don't spend as much time in here as they should. >> Yeah, because there's so much in the mainstream, but let's pull up a slide to bring out the survey composition. Tell us about the study. How often do you run it? What's the background and the methodology? >> Yeah, you were just spot on the way you were talking about the private tech companies out there. So what we did is we decided to take all the vendors that we track that are not yet public and move 'em over to the ETS. And there isn't a lot of information out there. If you're not in Silicon (indistinct), you're not going to get this stuff. So PitchBook and Tech Crunch are two out there that gives some data on these guys. But what we really wanted to do was go out to our community. We have 6,000, ITDMs in our community. We wanted to ask them, "Are you aware of these companies? And if so, are you allocating any resources to them? Are you planning to evaluate them," and really just kind of figure out what we can do. So this particular survey, as you can see, 1000 plus responses, over 450 vendors that we track. And essentially what we're trying to do here is talk about your evaluation and awareness of these companies and also your utilization. And also if you're not utilizing 'em, then we can also figure out your sales conversion or churn. So this is interesting, not only for the ITDMs themselves to figure out what their peers are evaluating and what they should put in POCs against the big guys when contracts come up. But it's also really interesting for the tech vendors themselves to see how they're performing. >> And you can see 2/3 of the respondents are director level of above. You got 28% is C-suite. There is of course a North America bias, 70, 75% is North America. But these smaller companies, you know, that's when they start doing business. So, okay. We're going to do a couple of things here today. First, we're going to give you the big picture across the sectors that ETR covers within the ETS survey. And then we're going to look at the high and low sentiment for the larger private companies. And then we're going to do the same for the smaller private companies, the ones that don't have as much mindshare. And then I'm going to put those two groups together and we're going to look at two dimensions, actually three dimensions, which companies are being evaluated the most. Second, companies are getting the most usage and adoption of their offerings. And then third, which companies are seeing the highest churn rates, which of course is a silent killer of companies. And then finally, we're going to look at the sentiment and mindshare for two key areas that we like to cover often here on "Breaking Analysis", security and data. And data comprises database, including data warehousing, and then big data analytics is the second part of data. And then machine learning and AI is the third section within data that we're going to look at. Now, one other thing before we get into it, ETR very often will include open source offerings in the mix, even though they're not companies like TensorFlow or Kubernetes, for example. And we'll call that out during this discussion. The reason this is done is for context, because everyone is using open source. It is the heart of innovation and many business models are super glued to an open source offering, like take MariaDB, for example. There's the foundation and then there's with the open source code and then there, of course, the company that sells services around the offering. Okay, so let's first look at the highest and lowest sentiment among these private firms, the ones that have the highest mindshare. So they're naturally going to be somewhat larger. And we do this on two dimensions, sentiment on the vertical axis and mindshare on the horizontal axis and note the open source tool, see Kubernetes, Postgres, Kafka, TensorFlow, Jenkins, Grafana, et cetera. So Erik, please explain what we're looking at here, how it's derived and what the data tells us. >> Certainly, so there is a lot here, so we're going to break it down first of all by explaining just what mindshare and net sentiment is. You explain the axis. We have so many evaluation metrics, but we need to aggregate them into one so that way we can rank against each other. Net sentiment is really the aggregation of all the positive and subtracting out the negative. So the net sentiment is a very quick way of looking at where these companies stand versus their peers in their sectors and sub sectors. Mindshare is basically the awareness of them, which is good for very early stage companies. And you'll see some names on here that are obviously been around for a very long time. And they're clearly be the bigger on the axis on the outside. Kubernetes, for instance, as you mentioned, is open source. This de facto standard for all container orchestration, and it should be that far up into the right, because that's what everyone's using. In fact, the open source leaders are so prevalent in the emerging technology survey that we break them out later in our analysis, 'cause it's really not fair to include them and compare them to the actual companies that are providing the support and the security around that open source technology. But no survey, no analysis, no research would be complete without including these open source tech. So what we're looking at here, if I can just get away from the open source names, we see other things like Databricks and OneTrust . They're repeating as top net sentiment performers here. And then also the design vendors. People don't spend a lot of time on 'em, but Miro and Figma. This is their third survey in a row where they're just dominating that sentiment overall. And Adobe should probably take note of that because they're really coming after them. But Databricks, we all know probably would've been a public company by now if the market hadn't turned, but you can see just how dominant they are in a survey of nothing but private companies. And we'll see that again when we talk about the database later. >> And I'll just add, so you see automation anywhere on there, the big UiPath competitor company that was not able to get to the public markets. They've been trying. Snyk, Peter McKay's company, they've raised a bunch of money, big security player. They're doing some really interesting things in developer security, helping developers secure the data flow, H2O.ai, Dataiku AI company. We saw them at the Snowflake Summit. Redis Labs, Netskope and security. So a lot of names that we know that ultimately we think are probably going to be hitting the public market. Okay, here's the same view for private companies with less mindshare, Erik. Take us through this one. >> On the previous slide too real quickly, I wanted to pull that security scorecard and we'll get back into it. But this is a newcomer, that I couldn't believe how strong their data was, but we'll bring that up in a second. Now, when we go to the ones of lower mindshare, it's interesting to talk about open source, right? Kubernetes was all the way on the top right. Everyone uses containers. Here we see Istio up there. Not everyone is using service mesh as much. And that's why Istio is in the smaller breakout. But still when you talk about net sentiment, it's about the leader, it's the highest one there is. So really interesting to point out. Then we see other names like Collibra in the data side really performing well. And again, as always security, very well represented here. We have Aqua, Wiz, Armis, which is a standout in this survey this time around. They do IoT security. I hadn't even heard of them until I started digging into the data here. And I couldn't believe how well they were doing. And then of course you have AnyScale, which is doing a second best in this and the best name in the survey Hugging Face, which is a machine learning AI tool. Also doing really well on a net sentiment, but they're not as far along on that access of mindshare just yet. So these are again, emerging companies that might not be as well represented in the enterprise as they will be in a couple of years. >> Hugging Face sounds like something you do with your two year old. Like you said, you see high performers, AnyScale do machine learning and you mentioned them. They came out of Berkeley. Collibra Governance, InfluxData is on there. InfluxDB's a time series database. And yeah, of course, Alex, if you bring that back up, you get a big group of red dots, right? That's the bad zone, I guess, which Sisense does vis, Yellowbrick Data is a NPP database. How should we interpret the red dots, Erik? I mean, is it necessarily a bad thing? Could it be misinterpreted? What's your take on that? >> Sure, well, let me just explain the definition of it first from a data science perspective, right? We're a data company first. So the gray dots that you're seeing that aren't named, that's the mean that's the average. So in order for you to be on this chart, you have to be at least one standard deviation above or below that average. So that gray is where we're saying, "Hey, this is where the lump of average comes in. This is where everyone normally stands." So you either have to be an outperformer or an underperformer to even show up in this analysis. So by definition, yes, the red dots are bad. You're at least one standard deviation below the average of your peers. It's not where you want to be. And if you're on the lower left, not only are you not performing well from a utilization or an actual usage rate, but people don't even know who you are. So that's a problem, obviously. And the VCs and the PEs out there that are backing these companies, they're the ones who mostly are interested in this data. >> Yeah. Oh, that's great explanation. Thank you for that. No, nice benchmarking there and yeah, you don't want to be in the red. All right, let's get into the next segment here. Here going to look at evaluation rates, adoption and the all important churn. First new evaluations. Let's bring up that slide. And Erik, take us through this. >> So essentially I just want to explain what evaluation means is that people will cite that they either plan to evaluate the company or they're currently evaluating. So that means we're aware of 'em and we are choosing to do a POC of them. And then we'll see later how that turns into utilization, which is what a company wants to see, awareness, evaluation, and then actually utilizing them. That's sort of the life cycle for these emerging companies. So what we're seeing here, again, with very high evaluation rates. H2O, we mentioned. SecurityScorecard jumped up again. Chargebee, Snyk, Salt Security, Armis. A lot of security names are up here, Aqua, Netskope, which God has been around forever. I still can't believe it's in an Emerging Technology Survey But so many of these names fall in data and security again, which is why we decided to pick those out Dave. And on the lower side, Vena, Acton, those unfortunately took the dubious award of the lowest evaluations in our survey, but I prefer to focus on the positive. So SecurityScorecard, again, real standout in this one, they're in a security assessment space, basically. They'll come in and assess for you how your security hygiene is. And it's an area of a real interest right now amongst our ITDM community. >> Yeah, I mean, I think those, and then Arctic Wolf is up there too. They're doing managed services. You had mentioned Netskope. Yeah, okay. All right, let's look at now adoption. These are the companies whose offerings are being used the most and are above that standard deviation in the green. Take us through this, Erik. >> Sure, yet again, what we're looking at is, okay, we went from awareness, we went to evaluation. Now it's about utilization, which means a survey respondent's going to state "Yes, we evaluated and we plan to utilize it" or "It's already in our enterprise and we're actually allocating further resources to it." Not surprising, again, a lot of open source, the reason why, it's free. So it's really easy to grow your utilization on something that's free. But as you and I both know, as Red Hat proved, there's a lot of money to be made once the open source is adopted, right? You need the governance, you need the security, you need the support wrapped around it. So here we're seeing Kubernetes, Postgres, Apache Kafka, Jenkins, Grafana. These are all open source based names. But if we're looking at names that are non open source, we're going to see Databricks, Automation Anywhere, Rubrik all have the highest mindshare. So these are the names, not surprisingly, all names that probably should have been public by now. Everyone's expecting an IPO imminently. These are the names that have the highest mindshare. If we talk about the highest utilization rates, again, Miro and Figma pop up, and I know they're not household names, but they are just dominant in this survey. These are applications that are meant for design software and, again, they're going after an Autodesk or a CAD or Adobe type of thing. It is just dominant how high the utilization rates are here, which again is something Adobe should be paying attention to. And then you'll see a little bit lower, but also interesting, we see Collibra again, we see Hugging Face again. And these are names that are obviously in the data governance, ML, AI side. So we're seeing a ton of data, a ton of security and Rubrik was interesting in this one, too, high utilization and high mindshare. We know how pervasive they are in the enterprise already. >> Erik, Alex, keep that up for a second, if you would. So yeah, you mentioned Rubrik. Cohesity's not on there. They're sort of the big one. We're going to talk about them in a moment. Puppet is interesting to me because you remember the early days of that sort of space, you had Puppet and Chef and then you had Ansible. Red Hat bought Ansible and then Ansible really took off. So it's interesting to see Puppet on there as well. Okay. So now let's look at the churn because this one is where you don't want to be. It's, of course, all red 'cause churn is bad. Take us through this, Erik. >> Yeah, definitely don't want to be here and I don't love to dwell on the negative. So we won't spend as much time. But to your point, there's one thing I want to point out that think it's important. So you see Rubrik in the same spot, but Rubrik has so many citations in our survey that it actually would make sense that they're both being high utilization and churn just because they're so well represented. They have such a high overall representation in our survey. And the reason I call that out is Cohesity. Cohesity has an extremely high churn rate here about 17% and unlike Rubrik, they were not on the utilization side. So Rubrik is seeing both, Cohesity is not. It's not being utilized, but it's seeing a high churn. So that's the way you can look at this data and say, "Hm." Same thing with Puppet. You noticed that it was on the other slide. It's also on this one. So basically what it means is a lot of people are giving Puppet a shot, but it's starting to churn, which means it's not as sticky as we would like. One that was surprising on here for me was Tanium. It's kind of jumbled in there. It's hard to see in the middle, but Tanium, I was very surprised to see as high of a churn because what I do hear from our end user community is that people that use it, like it. It really kind of spreads into not only vulnerability management, but also that endpoint detection and response side. So I was surprised by that one, mostly to see Tanium in here. Mural, again, was another one of those application design softwares that's seeing a very high churn as well. >> So you're saying if you're in both... Alex, bring that back up if you would. So if you're in both like MariaDB is for example, I think, yeah, they're in both. They're both green in the previous one and red here, that's not as bad. You mentioned Rubrik is going to be in both. Cohesity is a bit of a concern. Cohesity just brought on Sanjay Poonen. So this could be a go to market issue, right? I mean, 'cause Cohesity has got a great product and they got really happy customers. So they're just maybe having to figure out, okay, what's the right ideal customer profile and Sanjay Poonen, I guarantee, is going to have that company cranking. I mean they had been doing very well on the surveys and had fallen off of a bit. The other interesting things wondering the previous survey I saw Cvent, which is an event platform. My only reason I pay attention to that is 'cause we actually have an event platform. We don't sell it separately. We bundle it as part of our offerings. And you see Hopin on here. Hopin raised a billion dollars during the pandemic. And we were like, "Wow, that's going to blow up." And so you see Hopin on the churn and you didn't see 'em in the previous chart, but that's sort of interesting. Like you said, let's not kind of dwell on the negative, but you really don't. You know, churn is a real big concern. Okay, now we're going to drill down into two sectors, security and data. Where data comprises three areas, database and data warehousing, machine learning and AI and big data analytics. So first let's take a look at the security sector. Now this is interesting because not only is it a sector drill down, but also gives an indicator of how much money the firm has raised, which is the size of that bubble. And to tell us if a company is punching above its weight and efficiently using its venture capital. Erik, take us through this slide. Explain the dots, the size of the dots. Set this up please. >> Yeah. So again, the axis is still the same, net sentiment and mindshare, but what we've done this time is we've taken publicly available information on how much capital company is raised and that'll be the size of the circle you see around the name. And then whether it's green or red is basically saying relative to the amount of money they've raised, how are they doing in our data? So when you see a Netskope, which has been around forever, raised a lot of money, that's why you're going to see them more leading towards red, 'cause it's just been around forever and kind of would expect it. Versus a name like SecurityScorecard, which is only raised a little bit of money and it's actually performing just as well, if not better than a name, like a Netskope. OneTrust doing absolutely incredible right now. BeyondTrust. We've seen the issues with Okta, right. So those are two names that play in that space that obviously are probably getting some looks about what's going on right now. Wiz, we've all heard about right? So raised a ton of money. It's doing well on net sentiment, but the mindshare isn't as well as you'd want, which is why you're going to see a little bit of that red versus a name like Aqua, which is doing container and application security. And hasn't raised as much money, but is really neck and neck with a name like Wiz. So that is why on a relative basis, you'll see that more green. As we all know, information security is never going away. But as we'll get to later in the program, Dave, I'm not sure in this current market environment, if people are as willing to do POCs and switch away from their security provider, right. There's a little bit of tepidness out there, a little trepidation. So right now we're seeing overall a slight pause, a slight cooling in overall evaluations on the security side versus historical levels a year ago. >> Now let's stay on here for a second. So a couple things I want to point out. So it's interesting. Now Snyk has raised over, I think $800 million but you can see them, they're high on the vertical and the horizontal, but now compare that to Lacework. It's hard to see, but they're kind of buried in the middle there. That's the biggest dot in this whole thing. I think I'm interpreting this correctly. They've raised over a billion dollars. It's a Mike Speiser company. He was the founding investor in Snowflake. So people watch that very closely, but that's an example of where they're not punching above their weight. They recently had a layoff and they got to fine tune things, but I'm still confident they they're going to do well. 'Cause they're approaching security as a data problem, which is probably people having trouble getting their arms around that. And then again, I see Arctic Wolf. They're not red, they're not green, but they've raised fair amount of money, but it's showing up to the right and decent level there. And a couple of the other ones that you mentioned, Netskope. Yeah, they've raised a lot of money, but they're actually performing where you want. What you don't want is where Lacework is, right. They've got some work to do to really take advantage of the money that they raised last November and prior to that. >> Yeah, if you're seeing that more neutral color, like you're calling out with an Arctic Wolf, like that means relative to their peers, this is where they should be. It's when you're seeing that red on a Lacework where we all know, wow, you raised a ton of money and your mindshare isn't where it should be. Your net sentiment is not where it should be comparatively. And then you see these great standouts, like Salt Security and SecurityScorecard and Abnormal. You know they haven't raised that much money yet, but their net sentiment's higher and their mindshare's doing well. So those basically in a nutshell, if you're a PE or a VC and you see a small green circle, then you're doing well, then it means you made a good investment. >> Some of these guys, I don't know, but you see these small green circles. Those are the ones you want to start digging into and maybe help them catch a wave. Okay, let's get into the data discussion. And again, three areas, database slash data warehousing, big data analytics and ML AI. First, we're going to look at the database sector. So Alex, thank you for bringing that up. Alright, take us through this, Erik. Actually, let me just say Postgres SQL. I got to ask you about this. It shows some funding, but that actually could be a mix of EDB, the company that commercializes Postgres and Postgres the open source database, which is a transaction system and kind of an open source Oracle. You see MariaDB is a database, but open source database. But the companies they've raised over $200 million and they filed an S-4. So Erik looks like this might be a little bit of mashup of companies and open source products. Help us understand this. >> Yeah, it's tough when you start dealing with the open source side and I'll be honest with you, there is a little bit of a mashup here. There are certain names here that are a hundred percent for profit companies. And then there are others that are obviously open source based like Redis is open source, but Redis Labs is the one trying to monetize the support around it. So you're a hundred percent accurate on this slide. I think one of the things here that's important to note though, is just how important open source is to data. If you're going to be going to any of these areas, it's going to be open source based to begin with. And Neo4j is one I want to call out here. It's not one everyone's familiar with, but it's basically geographical charting database, which is a name that we're seeing on a net sentiment side actually really, really high. When you think about it's the third overall net sentiment for a niche database play. It's not as big on the mindshare 'cause it's use cases aren't as often, but third biggest play on net sentiment. I found really interesting on this slide. >> And again, so MariaDB, as I said, they filed an S-4 I think $50 million in revenue, that might even be ARR. So they're not huge, but they're getting there. And by the way, MariaDB, if you don't know, was the company that was formed the day that Oracle bought Sun in which they got MySQL and MariaDB has done a really good job of replacing a lot of MySQL instances. Oracle has responded with MySQL HeatWave, which was kind of the Oracle version of MySQL. So there's some interesting battles going on there. If you think about the LAMP stack, the M in the LAMP stack was MySQL. And so now it's all MariaDB replacing that MySQL for a large part. And then you see again, the red, you know, you got to have some concerns about there. Aerospike's been around for a long time. SingleStore changed their name a couple years ago, last year. Yellowbrick Data, Fire Bolt was kind of going after Snowflake for a while, but yeah, you want to get out of that red zone. So they got some work to do. >> And Dave, real quick for the people that aren't aware, I just want to let them know that we can cut this data with the public company data as well. So we can cross over this with that because some of these names are competing with the larger public company names as well. So we can go ahead and cross reference like a MariaDB with a Mongo, for instance, or of something of that nature. So it's not in this slide, but at another point we can certainly explain on a relative basis how these private names are doing compared to the other ones as well. >> All right, let's take a quick look at analytics. Alex, bring that up if you would. Go ahead, Erik. >> Yeah, I mean, essentially here, I can't see it on my screen, my apologies. I just kind of went to blank on that. So gimme one second to catch up. >> So I could set it up while you're doing that. You got Grafana up and to the right. I mean, this is huge right. >> Got it thank you. I lost my screen there for a second. Yep. Again, open source name Grafana, absolutely up and to the right. But as we know, Grafana Labs is actually picking up a lot of speed based on Grafana, of course. And I think we might actually hear some noise from them coming this year. The names that are actually a little bit more disappointing than I want to call out are names like ThoughtSpot. It's been around forever. Their mindshare of course is second best here but based on the amount of time they've been around and the amount of money they've raised, it's not actually outperforming the way it should be. We're seeing Moogsoft obviously make some waves. That's very high net sentiment for that company. It's, you know, what, third, fourth position overall in this entire area, Another name like Fivetran, Matillion is doing well. Fivetran, even though it's got a high net sentiment, again, it's raised so much money that we would've expected a little bit more at this point. I know you know this space extremely well, but basically what we're looking at here and to the bottom left, you're going to see some names with a lot of red, large circles that really just aren't performing that well. InfluxData, however, second highest net sentiment. And it's really pretty early on in this stage and the feedback we're getting on this name is the use cases are great, the efficacy's great. And I think it's one to watch out for. >> InfluxData, time series database. The other interesting things I just noticed here, you got Tamer on here, which is that little small green. Those are the ones we were saying before, look for those guys. They might be some of the interesting companies out there and then observe Jeremy Burton's company. They do observability on top of Snowflake, not green, but kind of in that gray. So that's kind of cool. Monte Carlo is another one, they're sort of slightly green. They are doing some really interesting things in data and data mesh. So yeah, okay. So I can spend all day on this stuff, Erik, phenomenal data. I got to get back and really dig in. Let's end with machine learning and AI. Now this chart it's similar in its dimensions, of course, except for the money raised. We're not showing that size of the bubble, but AI is so hot. We wanted to cover that here, Erik, explain this please. Why TensorFlow is highlighted and walk us through this chart. >> Yeah, it's funny yet again, right? Another open source name, TensorFlow being up there. And I just want to explain, we do break out machine learning, AI is its own sector. A lot of this of course really is intertwined with the data side, but it is on its own area. And one of the things I think that's most important here to break out is Databricks. We started to cover Databricks in machine learning, AI. That company has grown into much, much more than that. So I do want to state to you Dave, and also the audience out there that moving forward, we're going to be moving Databricks out of only the MA/AI into other sectors. So we can kind of value them against their peers a little bit better. But in this instance, you could just see how dominant they are in this area. And one thing that's not here, but I do want to point out is that we have the ability to break this down by industry vertical, organization size. And when I break this down into Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000, both Databricks and Tensorflow are even better than you see here. So it's quite interesting to see that the names that are succeeding are also succeeding with the largest organizations in the world. And as we know, large organizations means large budgets. So this is one area that I just thought was really interesting to point out that as we break it down, the data by vertical, these two names still are the outstanding players. >> I just also want to call it H2O.ai. They're getting a lot of buzz in the marketplace and I'm seeing them a lot more. Anaconda, another one. Dataiku consistently popping up. DataRobot is also interesting because all the kerfuffle that's going on there. The Cube guy, Cube alum, Chris Lynch stepped down as executive chairman. All this stuff came out about how the executives were taking money off the table and didn't allow the employees to participate in that money raising deal. So that's pissed a lot of people off. And so they're now going through some kind of uncomfortable things, which is unfortunate because DataRobot, I noticed, we haven't covered them that much in "Breaking Analysis", but I've noticed them oftentimes, Erik, in the surveys doing really well. So you would think that company has a lot of potential. But yeah, it's an important space that we're going to continue to watch. Let me ask you Erik, can you contextualize this from a time series standpoint? I mean, how is this changed over time? >> Yeah, again, not show here, but in the data. I'm sorry, go ahead. >> No, I'm sorry. What I meant, I should have interjected. In other words, you would think in a downturn that these emerging companies would be less interesting to buyers 'cause they're more risky. What have you seen? >> Yeah, and it was interesting before we went live, you and I were having this conversation about "Is the downturn stopping people from evaluating these private companies or not," right. In a larger sense, that's really what we're doing here. How are these private companies doing when it comes down to the actual practitioners? The people with the budget, the people with the decision making. And so what I did is, we have historical data as you know, I went back to the Emerging Technology Survey we did in November of 21, right at the crest right before the market started to really fall and everything kind of started to fall apart there. And what I noticed is on the security side, very much so, we're seeing less evaluations than we were in November 21. So I broke it down. On cloud security, net sentiment went from 21% to 16% from November '21. That's a pretty big drop. And again, that sentiment is our one aggregate metric for overall positivity, meaning utilization and actual evaluation of the name. Again in database, we saw it drop a little bit from 19% to 13%. However, in analytics we actually saw it stay steady. So it's pretty interesting that yes, cloud security and security in general is always going to be important. But right now we're seeing less overall net sentiment in that space. But within analytics, we're seeing steady with growing mindshare. And also to your point earlier in machine learning, AI, we're seeing steady net sentiment and mindshare has grown a whopping 25% to 30%. So despite the downturn, we're seeing more awareness of these companies in analytics and machine learning and a steady, actual utilization of them. I can't say the same in security and database. They're actually shrinking a little bit since the end of last year. >> You know it's interesting, we were on a round table, Erik does these round tables with CISOs and CIOs, and I remember one time you had asked the question, "How do you think about some of these emerging tech companies?" And one of the executives said, "I always include somebody in the bottom left of the Gartner Magic Quadrant in my RFPs. I think he said, "That's how I found," I don't know, it was Zscaler or something like that years before anybody ever knew of them "Because they're going to help me get to the next level." So it's interesting to see Erik in these sectors, how they're holding up in many cases. >> Yeah. It's a very important part for the actual IT practitioners themselves. There's always contracts coming up and you always have to worry about your next round of negotiations. And that's one of the roles these guys play. You have to do a POC when contracts come up, but it's also their job to stay on top of the new technology. You can't fall behind. Like everyone's a software company. Now everyone's a tech company, no matter what you're doing. So these guys have to stay in on top of it. And that's what this ETS can do. You can go in here and look and say, "All right, I'm going to evaluate their technology," and it could be twofold. It might be that you're ready to upgrade your technology and they're actually pushing the envelope or it simply might be I'm using them as a negotiation ploy. So when I go back to the big guy who I have full intentions of writing that contract to, at least I have some negotiation leverage. >> Erik, we got to leave it there. I could spend all day. I'm going to definitely dig into this on my own time. Thank you for introducing this, really appreciate your time today. >> I always enjoy it, Dave and I hope everyone out there has a great holiday weekend. Enjoy the rest of the summer. And, you know, I love to talk data. So anytime you want, just point the camera on me and I'll start talking data. >> You got it. I also want to thank the team at ETR, not only Erik, but Darren Bramen who's a data scientist, really helped prepare this data, the entire team over at ETR. I cannot tell you how much additional data there is. We are just scratching the surface in this "Breaking Analysis". So great job guys. I want to thank Alex Myerson. Who's on production and he manages the podcast. Ken Shifman as well, who's just coming back from VMware Explore. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE. Does some great editing for us. Thank you. All of you guys. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is just search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch david.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley and The Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020 special coverage sponsored by AWS Global Partner Network. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's virtual coverage of AWS re:invent 2020, it's virtual this year, we're usually in person this year we have to do remote interviews because of the pandemic, but it's been a great run, a lot of great content happening here in these next three weeks of re:Invent. We've got two great guests here as part of our coverage of the APN Partner Experience. I'm your host, John Furrier. Barbara Kessler, Global APN Programs Leader, and Ryan Broadwell, Global Director of ISVs for AWS. Thanks for coming on the CUBE, Thanks for joining me. >> Hey, thanks for having us, it's great to be here. >> You know we heard of-- >> Yeah thanks for having us John. >> Thanks for coming on. Sorry we're not in person, but tons of content. I mean, there's a lot of the VODs, the main stages, but the news hitting this morning around Doug's comments from strong focus of ISVs is just a continuation. We heard that last year, but this year more focus investments there, new announcements take us through what we just heard and what it means. >> Yeah John, I'll jump in first and then let Barbara add some additional color and commentary, but I think it is a continuation for us as we look at continuing to build a momentum with our ISVs they're mission critical for us, and we hear that loud and clear from our customers. So as you think about building off what Doug was talking about, I think it's first important for us to start with, we look to help our partners build and build well-designed solutions on AWS, supporting their innovation and transformation and working together to deliver scalable, reliable, secure solutions for our customers. To facilitate this, we offer programs such as AWS SaaS Factory, that provide enablement to our ISVs to build new products, migrate single tenent environments or optimize existing SaaS Solutions on AWS. And we do this through mechanisms like Webinars, Bootcamps, Workshops and even one-on-one engagements. You know, as you talked about, we just heard from Doug announce AWS SaaS Boost, which is a ready to use open source implementation of SaaS tooling and best practices to accelerate ISV SaaS Path. Through SaaS Factory which we've worked on with many ISVs in the last few years and you're well aware of, we have lots of learnings and we've helped a lot of partners make that journey towards SaaS. Partners like BMC, CloudZero, Nasdaq, Cohesity, or F5 transform their delivery and business models to SaaS. We've had a lot of demand for this type of engagement. And we knew it was important that we come up with a scalable way to help partners accelerate their transformation. SaaS Boost provides prescriptive experience to transform applications through an intuitive tool with many core services needed to develop and operate on the AWS Cloud. In addition to that, we look to use the well-architected framework, which is proven to set the architectural best practices for designing in operating systems in the Cloud, to help ISVs build their solutions on AWS. We just launched two additional lenses in well-architected tool, to enable ISVs to conduct these reviews from within the AWS console, one SaaS environment, and one aligned with foundational technical reviews, which helps partners prepare for the technical validation in AWS Partner Programs. >> You know, the SaaS Boost, I love that I was joking on Twitter, it sounds like an energy drink. Give me some of that SaaS Boost, don't drink too many of them you get immune to two to strong out, but this is what people want Barbara. This is about the Partner Network. You guys are providing more stuff, more successful programs and capabilities. This is what the demand is for. Help me get there faster path to SaaS. Can you explain what this means for partners? What's in it for them, can you share your thoughts? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, Ryan talked about some of the things that we do to help partners build their ISVs and software or SaaS products. But in addition to that, we provide a number of programs and resources to help partners also grow their business through marketing and sales focused programs. That's an area that we are focused on investing deeply with our partner community. For example, we offer APN Marketing Central through which partners can find and launch free customizable marketing campaigns, or even find a marketing agency to work with that has experienced messaging AWS, it also offers APN marketing activity. We recognize that not all partners, especially if they're in their startup stages, have those investments and skill sets yet around marketing. So Marketing Academy offers self service content to teach partners who don't have that capability in house today, to how to drive awareness campaigns and build demand for their offerings. We also offer a broad set of funding benefits to help partners starting from the build stage that Ryan talks about through Sandbox Credits to support their development, all the way through marketing with Market Development Funds as they're selling with what we call our partner Opportunity Acceleration Program, which is how we fund POC to support our partners and winning new customers. We also heard Doug announce in the keynote that we are launching the ISV Accelerate Program. This is our new co-selling program for ISVs that offer compensation incentives for AWS account managers, access to co-sale specialists and reduced marketplace listing fees to help our partners continue to grow their business with us. >> You know, successful selling is amazing. You want to make money. I mean, come on, you bring it a lot to the table. Co-selling I think that's a huge point. Nice call out there. Ryan, can you give some examples of partners that have been successful with these resources? >> Hey John, thank you. Yeah, it'd be great to kind of walk through with one good example and a little bit of detail. And what we've seen with Sisense is a great example of a partner that leveraged these resources and the work that they've done with Luma Health. So Luma Health serves millions of patients, provides a Cloud-hosted patient engagement platform that connects patients and providers. You know when word about COVID started, spreading Luma helped solve a big increase in questions and concerns from patients and the providers. Luma Health saw an opportunity to create new products, to help patients and providers during the pandemic, to decide what to build and how to build it, the company wanted to analyze sentimental signal and data real-time. Using Sisense, Amazon Redshift and Amazon Web Services, Data Migration Services, Luma Health built a platform that delivered analytics and insights it needed, democratizing access to the data for all users. As a result, Luma Health uncovered insights such as facts that SMS was the preferred method of communication and that many patients had similar questions. Just three weeks after their hypothesis, Luma Health released new products based on its insights, a turn-key EHR enabled healthcare solution, zero contact check-in and COVID-19 Broadcast Messaging System. >> So a lot of good successes. The question that I would ask you guys, this is the probably what's on everyone's mind is I'm a partner, I'm growing, obviously I'm in the partner network because I'm being successful. I don't have a lot of time. I need to figure out all the stuff that you have. You have so much going on that's good for me. I don't know what to do. Can you help me figure out what resources and programs to leverage? I could imagine this is a question that I would have, I want it too, I want to make money co-sell, I want to get into this program. What's the best path? I mean, what do I do? Can you share how you help your partners get on the right road, have the right resources, What are the right programs? 'Cause it makes it more consumable. This is probably a big challenge, can you share your thoughts? >> Yeah, happy to explore that. So we certainly find a lot of opportunity to innovate with our partners and customers and a result we do offer a broad range of programs, resources, material to meet the diverse needs of those partners and customers. One focus of these programs and enablement models that we offer partners, is to help our partners build their products and build their business with us. And the other focus is to create program structures that help customers find the right partner and the right solution at the right time. But we recognize it's a lot (chuckles) and we want to make sure that our partners are easily able to find what's most relevant to them. And to deliver this more effectively for ISV partners specifically, Doug just announced the launch of ISV Partner Path. As with everything we do at AWS, this new program structure works backwards from our customers and our partners to deliver the needs of both of those audiences. When a customer identifies a need for a solution, they search for that solution based on their business needs and the outcomes that they're looking to deliver rather than searching based on a partner profile. So ISV Partner Path pivots the focus that we have today on partner-level tier badging to instead focus on solution-level validation badging that helps us better align to what our customers are looking for and how they look for software products. The new model responds to that partner and customer feedback that we've heard, it removes APN tier requirements for ISVs and introduces the ability to engage across all of the products, services, and solutions that a partner offers and it pivots the partner badge attainment. So today our partners attain badging based on a tier and moving forward, they'll attain that badging to go to market with solutions that are validated and have gone through a technical assessment to either integrate effectively or run effectively on AWS. So if you were requirements to access APN programs from differentiation to funding and co-selling, partners can engage more quickly in a more meaningful way and in a more clear path to develop their solution offering and go to market with AWS. >> Ryan anything you want to add on in terms of structural support in terms of account management and does everyone get in on a wrap? Is there certain levels of attention? When does that come into play? >> Yeah, I think Barbara has made a great point in that we have a lot of great programmatic resources, but there's also no substitution for engagement with a person. And we have Partner Development Resources available to engage with our partners and help them develop their individualized plans that help them understand how they maximize the opportunity with their customer set and expand their customer sets. This starts as soon as a partner registers with the AWS Partner Network, they're contacted by a Partner Development team member within the first business day. This is a commitment we find incredibly important to the partner. And even when we have five or more new partners registering every single day. We look to go beyond that and it's not just about onboarding to your point John, our partner team works backwards from the customer and the partner to help develop what is that joint plan? How do we focus on what strategic to the partner and what becomes strategic to our customers? With that plan our team works to activate that broadly across the team in support of achieving our joint goals. And then naturally all partnerships, we want join accountability, we want mechanisms to measure success. >> You know I talked to a lot of channel partners over the years in my career, and the Cloud it really highlights the speed and the agility feature, but it all comes down to the same thing. I want to get my solution in front of the customer, I want to make money, I want to make it easy to use, make it easy to consume. I want to leverage the Cloud. This is kind of the process, this is how it always happens. This is what they want and you guys are bringing a lot to the table and that's important. And I think co-selling having the kind of support, making it consumable is easy and super great. So I have to ask you with that, what's your advice for people who are jumping in? Because you're seeing more on boarding of ISVs than ever before. And we've been commenting on theCUBE for multiple years. We've been seeing the uptick in software SaaS ISVs. And remember Amazon is not in the SaaS business a hundred percent. And government just collapsed the platform as a service in the IS categories that highlights the fact that your entire ISV landscape is wide open and growing. So there's new ISV is coming in. (chuckles) What advice would you give them to get started, experience and -- >> Yeah, I can take that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I can take that one thank you. And I actually want to build on something Ryan said, we actually have more than 50 new partners joining the AWS Partner Network every single day. And so having the right structure for those partners to easily navigate and the right resources for them is something that's very top of mind for us. I think I can distill down about two primary pieces of advice from my perspective for a new partner who's trying to figure out how to work with us and get involved. First and foremost, build a relationship with your Partner Manager, help them know and understand your business, the customers that you focus on, the solutions you provide. The Partner Manager is your advocate and could be your mentor in working with AWS. Make sure they know what you're good at. Partners are able to build the best traction with our shared customers and our AWS sales team when it's very clear what they're good at and how their solutions solve specific customer problems. And specialization through programs such as competency, which validate solutions based on industry in this case or workload is really key to helping communicate that specific value. And second, I would say avail yourself of the resources available to you. We offer a number of self-serve resources, such as the new ISV Navigate Track that is launching in conjunction with ISV Partner Path that provides individuals the sort of step by step guidance to move through that engagement with us, they connect them to all the resources that they need. Marketing Central which we discussed earlier to drive marketing campaigns that can be very self-served and driven by the Partner Central, which offers a wealth of content, white papers, et cetera. That's our portal through which partners engage. And you can also access things like training and certification discounts to build your Cloud skills to support your business. But I think both of those are really important things to keep in mind for partners who are just kind of getting started with us as well as partners who've been working with us for a while now. >> Ryan, what do you want to add to that because again, there's more ISVs is coming. And again, Amazon has been very disruptive in it's enablement of partners. Not everyone fits into a nice clean bucket. I mean what looks like a category might be old and being disrupted into to a new category being developed. All these new categories and new solutions. It's hard to put people into buckets. So you have a tough job, how do you give advice to your partners? >> It is tough, and the rate of transformation continues. And the rate of innovation continues to quicken. My advice is lean in with us. We continue to invest our efforts in developing this vibrant community of partners. So lean in, we'll continue to iterate around and optimize our joint plans and activities. And we'd look to be able to continue to drive success for our customers and our partners. >> Well, you guys do a great job. I want to say I've watched the APN grow and change and evolve. Market demand is there and you got the Factory, you got the Boost, you got the Lenses, you got the Partner Network, the people. It's people equation with software so congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much, appreciate the time. >> Thank you. >> Okay, great event here, re:Invent 2020 Virtual. This is theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier your host, wall-to-wall coverage with theCUBE, thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Munich, Germany, it's the CUBE. Covering IBM, Fast Track Your Data. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to Munich everybody. This is a special presentation of the CUBE, Fast Track Your Data, brought to you by IBM. My name is Dave Vellante. And I'm here with my cohost, Jim Kobielus. Jim, good to see you. Really good to see you in Munich. >> Jim: I'm glad I made it. >> Thanks for being here. So last year Jim and I hosted a panel at New York City on the CUBE. And it was quite an experience. We had, I think it was nine or 10 data scientists and we felt like that was a lot of people to organize and talk about data science. Well today, we're going to do a repeat of that. With a little bit of twist on topics. And we've got five data scientists. We're here live, in Munich. And we're going to kick off the Fast Track Your Data event with this data science panel. So I'm going to now introduce some of the panelists, or all of the panelists. Then we'll get into the discussions. I'm going to start with Lillian Pierson. Lillian thanks very much for being on the panel. You are in data science. You focus on training executives, students, and you're really a coach but with a lot of data science expertise based in Thailand, so welcome. >> Thank you, thank you so much for having me. >> Dave: You're very welcome. And so, I want to start with sort of when you focus on training people, data science, where do you start? >> Well it depends on the course that I'm teaching. But I try and start at the beginning so for my Big Data course, I actually start back at the fundamental concepts and definitions they would even need to understand in order to understand the basics of what Big Data is, data engineering. So, terms like data governance. Going into the vocabulary that makes up the very introduction of the course, so that later on the students can really grasp the concepts I present to them. You know I'm teaching a deep learning course as well, so in that case I start at a lot more advanced concepts. So it just really depends on the level of the course. >> Great, and we're going to come back to this topic of women in tech. But you know, we looked at some CUBE data the other day. About 17% of the technology industry comprises women. And so we're a little bit over that on our data science panel, we're about 20% today. So we'll come back to that topic. But I don't know if there's anything you would add? >> I'm really passionate about women in tech and women who code, in particular. And I'm connected with a lot of female programmers through Instagram. And we're supporting each other. So I'd love to take any questions you have on what we're doing in that space. At least as far as what's happening across the Instagram platform. >> Great, we'll circle back to that. All right, let me introduce Chris Penn. Chris, Boston based, all right, SMI. Chris is a marketing expert. Really trying to help people understand how to get, turn data into value from a marketing perspective. It's a very important topic. Not only because we get people to buy stuff but also understanding some of the risks associated with things like GDPR, which is coming up. So Chris, tell us a little bit about your background and your practice. >> So I actually started in IT and worked at a start up. And that's where I made the transition to marketing. Because marketing has much better parties. But what's really interesting about the way data science is infiltrating marketing is the technology came in first. You know, everything went digital. And now we're at a point where there's so much data. And most marketers, they kind of got into marketing as sort of the arts and crafts field. And are realizing now, they need a very strong, mathematical, statistical background. So one of the things, Adam, the reason why we're here and IBM is helping out tremendously is, making a lot of the data more accessible to people who do not have a data science background and probably never will. >> Great, okay thank you. I'm going to introduce Ronald Van Loon. Ronald, your practice is really all about helping people extract value out of data, driving competitive advantage, business advantage, or organizational excellence. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and your practice. >> Basically, I've three different backgrounds. On one hand, I'm a director at a data consultancy firm called Adversitement. Where we help companies to become data driven. Mainly large companies. I'm an advisory board member at Simply Learn, which is an e-learning platform, especially also for big data analytics. And on the other hand I'm a blogger and I host a series of webinars. >> Okay, great, now Dez, Dez Blanchfield, I met you on Twitter, you know, probably a couple of years ago. We first really started to collaborate last year. We've spend a fair amount of time together. You are a data scientist, but you're also a jack of all trades. You've got a technology background. You sit on a number of boards. You work very active with public policy. So tell us a little bit more about what you're doing these days, a little bit more about your background. >> Sure, I think my primary challenge these days is communication. Trying to join the dots between my technical background and deeply technical pedigree, to just plain English, every day language, and business speak. So bridging that technical world with what's happening in the boardroom. Toe to toe with the geeks to plain English to execs in boards. And just hand hold them and steward them through the journey of the challenges they're facing. Whether it's the enormous rapid of change and the pace of change, that's just almost exhaustive and causing them to sprint. But not just sprint in one race but in multiple lanes at the same time. As well as some of the really big things that are coming up, that we've seen like GDPR. So it's that communication challenge and just hand holding people through that journey and that mix of technical and commercial experience. >> Great, thank you, and finally Joe Caserta. Founder and president of Caserta Concepts. Joe you're a practitioner. You're in the front lines, helping organizations, similar to Ronald. Extracting value from data. Translate that into competitive advantage. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing these days in Caserta Concepts. >> Thanks Dave, thanks for having me. Yeah, so Caserta's been around. I've been doing this for 30 years now. And natural progressions have been just getting more from application development, to data warehousing, to big data analytics, to data science. Very, very organically, that's just because it's where businesses need the help the most, over the years. And right now, the big focus is governance. At least in my world. Trying to govern when you have a bunch of disparate data coming from a bunch of systems that you have no control over, right? Like social media, and third party data systems. Bringing it in and how to you organize it? How do you ingest it? How do you govern it? How do you keep it safe? And also help to define ownership of the data within an organization within an enterprise? That's also a very hot topic. Which ties back into GDPR. >> Great, okay, so we're going to be unpacking a lot of topics associated with the expertise that these individuals have. I'm going to bring in Jim Kobielus, to the conversation. Jim, the newest Wikibon analyst. And newest member of the SiliconANGLE Media Team. Jim, get us started off. >> Yeah, so we're at an event, at an IBM event where machine learning and data science are at the heart of it. There are really three core themes here. Machine learning and data science, on the one hand. Unified governance on the other. And hybrid data management. I want to circle back or focus on machine learning. Machine learning is the coin of the realm, right now in all things data. Machine learning is the heart of AI. Machine learning, everybody is going, hiring, data scientists to do machine learning. I want to get a sense from our panel, who are experts in this area, what are the chief innovations and trends right now on machine learning. Not deep learning, the core of machine learning. What's super hot? What's in terms of new techniques, new technologies, new ways of organizing teams to build and to train machine learning models? I'd like to open it up. Let's just start with Lillian. What are your thoughts about trends in machine learning? What's really hot? >> It's funny that you excluded deep learning from the response for this, because I think the hottest space in machine learning is deep learning. And deep learning is machine learning. I see a lot of collaborative platforms coming out, where people, data scientists are able to work together with other sorts of data professionals to reduce redundancies in workflows. And create more efficient data science systems. >> Is there much uptake of these crowd sourcing environments for training machine learning wells. Like CrowdFlower, or Amazon Mechanical Turk, or Mighty AI? Is that a huge trend in terms of the workflow of data science or machine learning, a lot of that? >> I don't see that crowdsourcing is like, okay maybe I've been out of the crowdsourcing space for a while. But I was working with Standby Task Force back in 2013. And we were doing a lot of crowdsourcing. And I haven't seen the industry has been increasing, but I could be wrong. I mean, because there's no, if you're building automation models, most of the, a lot of the work that's being crowdsourced could actually be automated if someone took the time to just build the scripts and build the models. And so I don't imagine that, that's going to be a trend that's increasing. >> Well, automation machine learning pipeline is fairly hot, in terms of I'm seeing more and more research. Google's doing a fair amount of automated machine learning. The panel, what do you think about automation, in terms of the core modeling tasks involved in machine learning. Is that coming along? Are data scientists in danger of automating themselves out of a job? >> I don't think there's a risk of data scientist's being put out of a job. Let's just put that on the thing. I do think we need to get a bit clearer about this meme of the mythical unicorn. But to your call point about machine learning, I think what you'll see, we saw the cloud become baked into products, just as a given. I think machine learning is already crossed this threshold. We just haven't necessarily noticed or caught up. And if we look at, we're at an IBM event, so let's just do a call out for them. The data science experience platform, for example. Machine learning's built into a whole range of things around algorithm and data classification. And there's an assisted, guided model for how you get to certain steps, where you don't actually have to understand how machine learning works. You don't have to understand how the algorithms work. It shows you the different options you've got and you can choose them. So you might choose regression. And it'll give you different options on how to do that. So I think we've already crossed this threshold of baking in machine learning and baking in the data science tools. And we've seen that with Cloud and other technologies where, you know, the Office 365 is not, you can't get a non Cloud Office 365 account, right? I think that's already happened in machine learning. What we're seeing though, is organizations even as large as the Googles still in catch up mode, in my view, on some of the shift that's taken place. So we've seen them write little games and apps where people do doodles and then it runs through the ML library and says, "Well that's a cow, or a unicorn, or a duck." And you get awards, and gold coins, and whatnot. But you know, as far as 12 years ago I was working on a project, where we had full size airplanes acting as drones. And we mapped with two and 3-D imagery. With 2-D high res imagery and LiDAR for 3-D point Clouds. We were finding poles and wires for utility companies, using ML before it even became a trend. And baking it right into the tools. And used to store on our web page and clicked and pointed on. >> To counter Lillian's point, it's not crowdsourcing but crowd sharing that's really powering a lot of the rapid leaps forward. If you look at, you know, DSX from IBM. Or you look at Node-RED, huge number of free workflows that someone has probably already done the thing that you are trying to do. Go out and find in the libraries, through Jupyter and R Notebooks, there's an ability-- >> Chris can you define before you go-- >> Chris: Sure. >> This is great, crowdsourcing versus crowd sharing. What's the distinction? >> Well, so crowdsourcing, kind of, where in the context of the question you ask is like I'm looking for stuff that other people, getting people to do stuff that, for me. It's like asking people to mine classifieds. Whereas crowd sharing, someone has done the thing already, it already exists. You're not purpose built, saying, "Jim, help me build this thing." It's like, "Oh Jim, you already "built this thing, cool. "So can I fork it and make my own from it?" >> Okay, I see what you mean, keep going. >> And then, again, going back to earlier. In terms of the advancements. Really deep learning, it probably is a good idea to just sort of define these things. Machine learning is how machines do things without being explicitly programmed to do them. Deep learning's like if you can imagine a stack of pancakes, right? Each pancake is a type of machine learning algorithm. And your data is the syrup. You pour the data on it. It goes from layer, to layer, to layer, to layer, and what you end up with at the end is breakfast. That's the easiest analogy for what deep learning is. Now imagine a stack of pancakes, 500 or 1,000 high, that's where deep learning's going now. >> Sure, multi layered machine learning models, essentially, that have the ability to do higher levels of abstraction. Like image analysis, Lillian? >> I had a comment to add about automation and data science. Because there are a lot of tools that are able to, or applications that are able to use data science algorithms and output results. But the reason that data scientists aren't in risk of losing their jobs, is because just because you can get the result, you also have to be able to interpret it. Which means you have to understand it. And that involves deep math and statistical understanding. Plus domain expertise. So, okay, great, you took out the coding element but that doesn't mean you can codify a person's ability to understand and apply that insight. >> Dave: Joe, you have something to add? >> I could just add that I see the trend. Really, the reason we're talking about it today is machine learning is not necessarily, it's not new, like Dez was saying. But what's different is the accessibility of it now. It's just so easily accessible. All of the tools that are coming out, for data, have machine learning built into it. So the machine learning algorithms, which used to be a black art, you know, years ago, now is just very easily accessible. That you can get, it's part of everyone's toolbox. And the other reason that we're talking about it more, is that data science is starting to become a core curriculum in higher education. Which is something that's new, right? That didn't exist 10 years ago? But over the past five years, I'd say, you know, it's becoming more and more easily accessible for education. So now, people understand it. And now we have it accessible in our tool sets. So now we can apply it. And I think that's, those two things coming together is really making it becoming part of the standard of doing analytics. And I guess the last part is, once we can train the machines to start doing the analytics, right? And get smarter as it ingests more data. And then we can actually take that and embed it in our applications. That's the part that you still need data scientists to create that. But once we can have standalone appliances that are intelligent, that's when we're going to start seeing, really, machine learning and artificial intelligence really start to take off even more. >> Dave: So I'd like to switch gears a little bit and bring Ronald on. >> Okay, yes. >> Here you go, there. >> Ronald, the bromide in this sort of big data world we live in is, the data is the new oil. You got to be a data driven company and many other cliches. But when you talk to organizations and you start to peel the onion. You find that most companies really don't have a good way to connect data with business impact and business value. What are you seeing with your clients and just generally in the community, with how companies are doing that? How should they do that? I mean, is that something that is a viable approach? You don't see accountants, for example, quantifying the value of data on a balance sheet. There's no standards for doing that. And so it's sort of this fuzzy concept. How are and how should organizations take advantage of data and turn it into value. >> So, I think in general, if you look how companies look at data. They have departments and within the departments they have tools specific for this department. And what you see is that there's no central, let's say, data collection. There's no central management of governance. There's no central management of quality. There's no central management of security. Each department is manages their data on their own. So if you didn't ask, on one hand, "Okay, how should they do it?" It's basically go back to the drawing table and say, "Okay, how should we do it?" We should collect centrally, the data. And we should take care for central governance. We should take care for central data quality. We should take care for centrally managing this data. And look from a company perspective and not from a department perspective what the value of data is. So, look at the perspective from your whole company. And this means that it has to be brought on one end to, whether it's from C level, where most of them still fail to understand what it really means. And what the impact can be for that company. >> It's a hard problem. Because data by its' very nature is now so decentralized. But Chris you have a-- >> The thing I want to add to that is, think about in terms of valuing data. Look at what it would cost you for data breach. Like what is the expensive of having your data compromised. If you don't have governance. If you don't have policy in place. Look at the major breaches of the last couple years. And how many billions of dollars those companies lost in market value, and trust, and all that stuff. That's one way you can value data very easily. "What will it cost us if we mess this up?" >> So a lot of CEOs will hear that and say, "Okay, I get it. "I have to spend to protect myself, "but I'd like to make a little money off of this data thing. "How do I do that?" >> Well, I like to think of it, you know, I think data's definitely an asset within an organization. And is becoming more and more of an asset as the years go by. But data is still a raw material. And that's the way I think about it. In order to actually get the value, just like if you're creating any product, you start with raw materials and then you refine it. And then it becomes a product. For data, data is a raw material. You need to refine it. And then the insight is the product. And that's really where the value is. And the insight is absolutely, you can monetize your insight. >> So data is, abundant insights are scarce. >> Well, you know, actually you could say that intermediate between insights and the data are the models themselves. The statistical, predictive, machine learning models. That are a crystallization of insights that have been gained by people called data scientists. What are your thoughts on that? Are statistical, predictive, machine learning models something, an asset, that companies, organizations, should manage governance of on a centralized basis or not? >> Well the models are essentially the refinery system, right? So as you're refining your data, you need to have process around how you exactly do that. Just like refining anything else. It needs to be controlled and it needs to be governed. And I think that data is no different from that. And I think that it's very undisciplined right now, in the market or in the industry. And I think maturing that discipline around data science, I think is something that's going to be a very high focus in this year and next. >> You were mentioning, "How do you make money from data?" Because there's all this risk associated with security breaches. But at the risk of sounding simplistic, you can generate revenue from system optimization, or from developing products and services. Using data to develop products and services that better meet the demands and requirements of your markets. So that you can sell more. So either you are using data to earn more money. Or you're using data to optimize your system so you have less cost. And that's a simple answer for how you're going to be making money from the data. But yes, there is always the counter to that, which is the security risks. >> Well, and my question really relates to, you know, when you think of talking to C level executives, they kind of think about running the business, growing the business, and transforming the business. And a lot of times they can't fund these transformations. And so I would agree, there's many, many opportunities to monetize data, cut costs, increase revenue. But organizations seem to struggle to either make a business case. And actually implement that transformation. >> Dave, I'd love to have a crack at that. I think this conversation epitomizes the type of things that are happening in board rooms and C suites already. So we've really quickly dived into the detail of data. And the detail of machine learning. And the detail of data science, without actually stopping and taking a breath and saying, "Well, we've "got lots of it, but what have we got? "Where is it? "What's the value of it? "Is there any value in it at all?" And, "How much time and money should we invest in it?" For example, we talk of being about a resource. I look at data as a utility. When I turn the tap on to get a drink of water, it's there as a utility. I counted it being there but I don't always sample the quality of the water and I probably should. It could have Giardia in it, right? But what's interesting is I trust the water at home, in Sydney. Because we have a fairly good experience with good quality water. If I were to go to some other nation. I probably wouldn't trust that water. And I think, when you think about it, what's happening in organizations. It's almost the same as what we're seeing here today. We're having a lot of fun, diving into the detail. But what we've forgotten to do is ask the question, "Well why is data even important? "What's the reasoning to the business? "Why are we in business? "What are we doing as an organization? "And where does data fit into that?" As opposed to becoming so fixated on data because it's a media hyped topic. I think once you can wind that back a bit and say, "Well, we have lot's of data, "but is it good data? "Is it quality data? "Where's it coming from? "Is it ours? "Are we allowed to have it? "What treatment are we allowed to give that data?" As you said, "Are we controlling it? "And where are we controlling it? "Who owns it?" There's so many questions to be asked. But the first question I like to ask people in plain English is, "Well is there any value "in data in the first place? "What decisions are you making that data can help drive? "What things are in your organizations, "KPIs and milestones you're trying to meet "that data might be a support?" So then instead of becoming fixated with data as a thing in itself, it becomes part of your DNA. Does that make sense? >> Think about what money means. The Economists' Rhyme, "Money is a measure for, "a systems for, a medium, a measure, and exchange." So it's a medium of exchange. A measure of value, a way to exchange something. And a way to store value. Data, good clean data, well governed, fits all four of those. So if you're trying to figure out, "How do we make money out of stuff." Figure out how money works. And then figure out how you map data to it. >> So if we approach and we start with a company, we always start with business case, which is quite clear. And defined use case, basically, start with a team on one hand, marketing people, sales people, operational people, and also the whole data science team. So start with this case. It's like, defining, basically a movie. If you want to create the movie, You know where you're going to. You know what you want to achieve to create the customer experience. And this is basically the same with a business case. Where you define, "This is the case. "And this is how we're going to derive value, "start with it and deliver value within a month." And after the month, you check, "Okay, where are we and how can we move forward? "And what's the value that we've brought?" >> Now I as well, start with business case. I've done thousands of business cases in my life, with organizations. And unless that organization was kind of a data broker, the business case rarely has a discreet component around data. Is that changing, in your experience? >> Yes, so we guide companies into be data driven. So initially, indeed, they don't like to use the data. They don't like to use the analysis. So that's why, how we help. And is it changing? Yes, they understand that they need to change. But changing people is not always easy. So, you see, it's hard if you're not involved and you're not guiding it, they fall back in doing the daily tasks. So it's changing, but it's a hard change. >> Well and that's where this common parlance comes in. And Lillian, you, sort of, this is what you do for a living, is helping people understand these things, as you've been sort of evangelizing that common parlance. But do you have anything to add? >> I wanted to add that for organizational implementations, another key component to success is to start small. Start in one small line of business. And then when you've mastered that area and made it successful, then try and deploy it in more areas of the business. And as far as initializing big data implementation, that's generally how to do it successfully. >> There's the whole issue of putting a value on data as a discreet asset. Then there's the issue, how do you put a value on a data lake? Because a data lake, is essentially an asset you build on spec. It's an exploratory archive, essentially, of all kinds of data that might yield some insights, but you have to have a team of data scientists doing exploration and modeling. But it's all on spec. How do you put a value on a data lake? And at what point does the data lake itself become a burden? Because you got to store that data and manage it. At what point do you drain that lake? At what point, do the costs of maintaining that lake outweigh the opportunity costs of not holding onto it? >> So each Hadoop note is approximately $20,000 per year cost for storage. So I think that there needs to be a test and a diagnostic, before even inputting, ingesting the data and storing it. "Is this actually going to be useful? "What value do we plan to create from this?" Because really, you can't store all the data. And it's a lot cheaper to store data in Hadoop then it was in traditional systems but it's definitely not free. So people need to be applying this test before even ingesting the data. Why do we need this? What business value? >> I think the question we need to also ask around this is, "Why are we building data lakes "in the first place? "So what's the function it's going to perform for you?" There's been a huge drive to this idea. "We need a data lake. "We need to put it all somewhere." But invariably they become data swamps. And we only half jokingly say that because I've seen 90 day projects turn from a great idea, to a really bad nightmare. And as Lillian said, it is cheaper in some ways to put it into a HDFS platform, in a technical sense. But when we look at all the fully burdened components, it's actually more expensive to find Hadoop specialists and Spark specialists to maintain that cluster. And invariably I'm finding that big data, quote unquote, is not actually so much lots of data, it's complex data. And as Lillian said, "You don't always "need to store it all." So I think if we go back to the question of, "What's the function of a data lake in the first place? "Why are we building one?" And then start to build some fully burdened cost components around that. We'll quickly find that we don't actually need a data lake, per se. We just need an interim data store. So we might take last years' data and tokenize it, and analyze it, and do some analytics on it, and just keep the meta data. So I think there is this rush, for a whole range of reasons, particularly vendor driven. To build data lakes because we think they're a necessity, when in reality they may just be an interim requirement and we don't need to keep them for a long term. >> I'm going to attempt to, the last few questions, put them all together. And I think, they all belong together because one of the reasons why there's such hesitation about progress within the data world is because there's just so much accumulated tech debt already. Where there's a new idea. We go out and we build it. And six months, three years, it really depends on how big the idea is, millions of dollars is spent. And then by the time things are built the idea is pretty much obsolete, no one really cares anymore. And I think what's exciting now is that the speed to value is just so much faster than it's ever been before. And I think that, you know, what makes that possible is this concept of, I don't think of a data lake as a thing. I think of a data lake as an ecosystem. And that ecosystem has evolved so much more, probably in the last three years than it has in the past 30 years. And it's exciting times, because now once we have this ecosystem in place, if we have a new idea, we can actually do it in minutes not years. And that's really the exciting part. And I think, you know, data lake versus a data swamp, comes back to just traditional data architecture. And if you architect your data lake right, you're going to have something that's substantial, that's you're going to be able to harness and grow. If you don't do it right. If you just throw data. If you buy Hadoop cluster or a Cloud platform and just throw your data out there and say, "We have a lake now." yeah, you're going to create a mess. And I think taking the time to really understand, you know, the new paradigm of data architecture and modern data engineering, and actually doing it in a very disciplined way. If you think about it, what we're doing is we're building laboratories. And if you have a shabby, poorly built laboratory, the best scientist in the world isn't going to be able to prove his theories. So if you have a well built laboratory and a clean room, then, you know a scientist can get what he needs done very, very, very efficiently. And that's the goal, I think, of data management today. >> I'd like to just quickly add that I totally agree with the challenge between on premise and Cloud mode. And I think one of the strong themes of today is going to be the hybrid data management challenge. And I think organizations, some organizations, have rushed to adopt Cloud. And thinking it's a really good place to dump the data and someone else has to manage the problem. And then they've ended up with a very expensive death by 1,000 cuts in some senses. And then others have been very reluctant as a result of not gotten access to rapid moving and disruptive technology. So I think there's a really big challenge to get a basic conversation going around what's the value using Cloud technology as in adopting it, versus what are the risks? And when's the right time to move? For example, should we Cloud Burst for workloads? Do we move whole data sets in there? You know, moving half a petabyte of data into a Cloud platform back is a non-trivial exercise. But moving a terabyte isn't actually that big a deal anymore. So, you know, should we keep stuff behind the firewalls? I'd be interested in seeing this week where 80% of the data, supposedly is. And just push out for Cloud tools, machine learning, data science tools, whatever they might be, cognitive analytics, et cetera. And keep the bulk of the data on premise. Or should we just move whole spools into the Cloud? There is no one size fits all. There's no silver bullet. Every organization has it's own quirks and own nuances they need to think through and make a decision themselves. >> Very often, Dez, organizations have zonal architectures so you'll have a data lake that consists of a no sequel platform that might be used for say, mobile applications. A Hadoop platform that might be used for unstructured data refinement, so forth. A streaming platform, so forth and so on. And then you'll have machine learning models that are built and optimized for those different platforms. So, you know, think of it in terms of then, your data lake, is a set of zones that-- >> It gets even more complex just playing on that theme, when you think about what Cisco started, called Folk Computing. I don't really like that term. But edge analytics, or computing at the edge. We've seen with the internet coming along where we couldn't deliver everything with a central data center. So we started creating this concept of content delivery networks, right? I think the same thing, I know the same thing has happened in data analysis and data processing. Where we've been pulling social media out of the Cloud, per se, and bringing it back to a central source. And doing analytics on it. But when you think of something like, say for example, when the Dreamliner 787 from Boeing came out, this airplane created 1/2 a terabyte of data per flight. Now let's just do some quick, back of the envelope math. There's 87,400 fights a day, just in the domestic airspace in the USA alone, per day. Now 87,400 by 1/2 a terabyte, that's 43 point five petabytes a day. You physically can't copy that from quote unquote in the Cloud, if you'll pardon the pun, back to the data center. So now we've got the challenge, a lot of our Enterprise data's behind a firewall, supposedly 80% of it. But what's out at the edge of the network. Where's the value in that data? So there are zonal challenges. Now what do I do with my Enterprise versus the open data, the mobile data, the machine data. >> Yeah, we've seen some recent data from IDC that says, "About 43% of the data "is going to stay at the edge." We think that, that's way understated, just given the examples. We think it's closer to 90% is going to stay at the edge. >> Just on the airplane topic, right? So Airbus wasn't going to be outdone. Boeing put 4,000 sensors or something in their 787 Dreamliner six years ago. Airbus just announced an 83, 81,000 with 10,000 sensors in it. Do the same math. Now the FAA in the US said that all aircraft and all carriers have to be, by early next year, I think it's like March or April next year, have to be at the same level of BIOS. Or the same capability of data collection and so forth. It's kind of like a mini GDPR for airlines. So with the 83, 81,000 with 10,000 sensors, that becomes two point five terabytes per flight. If you do the math, it's 220 petabytes of data just in one day's traffic, domestically in the US. Now, it's just so mind boggling that we're going to have to completely turn our thinking on its' head, on what do we do behind the firewall? What do we do in the Cloud versus what we might have to do in the airplane? I mean, think about edge analytics in the airplane processing data, as you said, Jim, streaming analytics in flight. >> Yeah that's a big topic within Wikibon, so, within the team. Me and David Floyer, and my other colleagues. They're talking about the whole notion of edge architecture. Not only will most of the data be persisted at the edge, most of the deep learning models like TensorFlow will be executed at the edge. To some degree, the training of those models will happen in the Cloud. But much of that will be pushed in a federated fashion to the edge, or at least I'm predicting. We're already seeing some industry moves in that direction, in terms of architectures. Google has a federated training, project or initiative. >> Chris: Look at TensorFlow Lite. >> Which is really fascinating for it's geared to IOT, I'm sorry, go ahead. >> Look at TensorFlow Lite. I mean in the announcement of having every Android device having ML capabilities, is Google's essential acknowledgment, "We can't do it all." So we need to essentially, sort of like a setting at home. Everyone's smartphone top TV box just to help with the processing. >> Now we're talking about this, this sort of leads to this IOT discussion but I want to underscore the operating model. As you were saying, "You can't just "lift and shift to the Cloud." You're not going to, CEOs aren't going to get the billion dollar hit by just doing that. So you got to change the operating model. And that leads to, this discussion of IOT. And an entirely new operating model. >> Well, there are companies that are like Sisense who have worked with Intel. And they've taken this concept. They've taken the business logic and not just putting it in the chip, but actually putting it in memory, in the chip. So as data's going through the chip it's not just actually being processed but it's actually being baked in memory. So level one, two, and three cache. Now this is a game changer. Because as Chris was saying, even if we were to get the data back to a central location, the compute load, I saw a real interesting thing from I think it was Google the other day, one of the guys was doing a talk. And he spoke about what it meant to add cognitive and voice processing into just the Android platform. And they used some number, like that had, double the amount of compute they had, just to add voice for free, to the Android platform. Now even for Google, that's a nontrivial exercise. So as Chris was saying, I think we have to again, flip it on its' head and say, "How much can we put "at the edge of the network?" Because think about these phones. I mean, even your fridge and microwave, right? We put a man on the moon with something that these days, we make for $89 at home, on the Raspberry Pie computer, right? And even that was 1,000 times more powerful. When we start looking at what's going into the chips, we've seen people build new, not even GPUs, but deep learning and stream analytics capable chips. Like Google, for example. That's going to make its' way into consumer products. So that, now the compute capacity in phones, is going to, I think transmogrify in some ways because there is some magic in there. To the point where, as Chris was saying, "We're going to have the smarts in our phone." And a lot of that workload is going to move closer to us. And only the metadata that we need to move is going to go centrally. >> Well here's the thing. The edge isn't the technology. The edge is actually the people. When you look at, for example, the MIT language Scratch. This is kids programming language. It's drag and drop. You know, kids can assemble really fun animations and make little movies. We're training them to build for IOT. Because if you look at a system like Node-RED, it's an IBM interface that is drag and drop. Your workflow is for IOT. And you can push that to a device. Scratch has a converter for doing those. So the edge is what those thousands and millions of kids who are learning how to code, learning how to think architecturally and algorithmically. What they're going to create that is beyond what any of us can possibly imagine. >> I'd like to add one other thing, as well. I think there's a topic we've got to start tabling. And that is what I refer to as the gravity of data. So when you think about how planets are formed, right? Particles of dust accrete. They form into planets. Planets develop gravity. And the reason we're not flying into space right now is that there's gravitational force. Even though it's one of the weakest forces, it keeps us on our feet. Oftentimes in organizations, I ask them to start thinking about, "Where is the center "of your universe with regard to the gravity of data." Because if you can follow the center of your universe and the gravity of your data, you can often, as Chris is saying, find where the business logic needs to be. And it could be that you got to think about a storage problem. You can think about a compute problem. You can think about a streaming analytics problem. But if you can find where the center of your universe and the center of your gravity for your data is, often you can get a really good insight into where you can start focusing on where the workloads are going to be where the smarts are going to be. Whether it's small, medium, or large. >> So this brings up the topic of data governance. One of the themes here at Fast Track Your Data is GDPR. What it means. It's one of the reasons, I think IBM selected Europe, generally, Munich specifically. So let's talk about GDPR. We had a really interesting discussion last night. So let's kind of recreate some of that. I'd like somebody in the panel to start with, what is GDPR? And why does it matter, Ronald? >> Yeah, maybe I can start. Maybe a little bit more in general unified governance. So if i talk to companies and I need to explain to them what's governance, I basically compare it with a crime scene. So in a crime scene if something happens, they start with securing all the evidence. So they start sealing the environment. And take care that all the evidence is collected. And on the other hand, you see that they need to protect this evidence. There are all kinds of policies. There are all kinds of procedures. There are all kinds of rules, that need to be followed. To take care that the whole evidence is secured well. And once you start, basically, investigating. So you have the crime scene investigators. You have the research lab. You have all different kind of people. They need to have consent before they can use all this evidence. And the whole reason why they're doing this is in order to collect the villain, the crook. To catch him and on the other hand, once he's there, to convict him. And we do this to have trust in the materials. Or trust in basically, the analytics. And on the other hand to, the public have trust in everything what's happened with the data. So if you look to a company, where data is basically the evidence, this is the value of your data. It's similar to like the evidence within a crime scene. But most companies don't treat it like this. So if we then look to GDPR, GDPR basically shifts the power and the ownership of the data from the company to the person that created it. Which is often, let's say the consumer. And there's a lot of paradox in this. Because all the companies say, "We need to have this customer data. "Because we need to improve the customer experience." So if you make it concrete and let's say it's 1st of June, so GDPR is active. And it's first of June 2018. And I go to iTunes, so I use iTunes. Let's go to iTunes said, "Okay, Apple please "give me access to my data." I want to see which kind of personal information you have stored for me. On the other end, I want to have the right to rectify all this data. I want to be able to change it and give them a different level of how they can use my data. So I ask this to iTunes. And then I say to them, okay, "I basically don't like you anymore. "I want to go to Spotify. "So please transfer all my personal data to Spotify." So that's possible once it's June 18. Then I go back to iTunes and say, "Okay, I don't like it anymore. "Please reduce my consent. "I withdraw my consent. "And I want you to remove all my "personal data for everything that you use." And I go to Spotify and I give them, let's say, consent for using my data. So this is a shift where you can, as a person be the owner of the data. And this has a lot of consequences, of course, for organizations, how to manage this. So it's quite simple for the consumer. They get the power, it's maturing the whole law system. But it's a big consequence of course for organizations. >> This is going to be a nightmare for marketers. But fill in some of the gaps there. >> Let's go back, so GDPR, the General Data Protection Regulation, was passed by the EU in 2016, in May of 2016. It is, as Ronald was saying, it's four basic things. The right to privacy. The right to be forgotten. Privacy built into systems by default. And the right to data transfer. >> Joe: It takes effect next year. >> It is already in effect. GDPR took effect in May of 2016. The enforcement penalties take place the 25th of May 2018. Now here's where, there's two things on the penalty side that are important for everyone to know. Now number one, GDPR is extra territorial. Which means that an EU citizen, anywhere on the planet has GDPR, goes with them. So say you're a pizza shop in Nebraska. And an EU citizen walks in, orders a pizza. Gives her the credit card and stuff like that. If you for some reason, store that data, GDPR now applies to you, Mr. Pizza shop, whether or not you do business in the EU. Because an EU citizen's data is with you. Two, the penalties are much stiffer then they ever have been. In the old days companies could simply write off penalties as saying, "That's the cost of doing business." With GDPR the penalties are up to 4% of your annual revenue or 20 million Euros, whichever is greater. And there may be criminal sanctions, charges, against key company executives. So there's a lot of questions about how this is going to be implemented. But one of the first impacts you'll see from a marketing perspective is all the advertising we do, targeting people by their age, by their personally identifiable information, by their demographics. Between now and May 25th 2018, a good chunk of that may have to go away because there's no way for you to say, "Well this person's an EU citizen, this person's not." People give false information all the time online. So how do you differentiate it? Every company, regardless of whether they're in the EU or not will have to adapt to it, or deal with the penalties. >> So Lillian, as a consumer this is designed to protect you. But you had a very negative perception of this regulation. >> I've looked over the GDPR and to me it actually looks like a socialist agenda. It looks like (panel laughs) no, it looks like a full assault on free enterprise and capitalism. And on its' face from a legal perspective, its' completely and wholly unenforceable. Because they're assigning jurisdictional rights to the citizen. But what are they going to do? They're going to go to Nebraska and they're going to call in the guy from the pizza shop? And call him into what court? The EU court? It's unenforceable from a legal perspective. And if you write a law that's unenforceable, you know, it's got to be enforceable in every element. It can't be just, "Oh, we're only "going to enforce it for Facebook and for Google. "But it's not enforceable for," it needs to be written so that it's a complete and actionable law. And it's not written in that way. And from a technological perspective it's not implementable. I think you said something like 652 EU regulators or political people voted for this and 10 voted against it. But what do they know about actually implementing it? Is it possible? There's all sorts of regulations out there that aren't possible to implement. I come from an environmental engineering background. And it's absolutely ridiculous because these agencies will pass laws that actually, it's not possible to implement those in practice. The cost would be too great. And it's not even needed. So I don't know, I just saw this and I thought, "You know, if the EU wants to," what they're essentially trying to do is regulate what the rest of the world does on the internet. And if they want to build their own internet like China has and police it the way that they want to. But Ronald here, made an analogy between data, and free enterprise, and a crime scene. Now to me, that's absolutely ridiculous. What does data and someone signing up for an email list have to do with a crime scene? And if EU wants to make it that way they can police their own internet. But they can't go across the world. They can't go to Singapore and tell Singapore, or go to the pizza shop in Nebraska and tell them how to run their business. >> You know, EU overreach in the post Brexit era, of what you're saying has a lot of validity. How far can the tentacles of the EU reach into other sovereign nations. >> What court are they going to call them into? >> Yeah. >> I'd like to weigh in on this. There are lots of unknowns, right? So I'd like us to focus on the things we do know. We've already dealt with similar situations before. In Australia, we introduced a goods and sales tax. Completely foreign concept. Everything you bought had 10% on it. No one knew how to deal with this. It was a completely new practice in accounting. There's a whole bunch of new software that had to be written. MYRB had to have new capability, but we coped. No one actually went to jail yet. It's decades later, for not complying with GST. So what it was, was a framework on how to shift from non sales tax related revenue collection. To sales tax related revenue collection. I agree that there are some egregious things built into this. I don't disagree with that at all. But I think if I put my slightly broader view of the world hat on, we have well and truly gone past the point in my mind, where data was respected, data was treated in a sensible way. I mean I get emails from companies I've never done business with. And when I follow it up, it's because I did business with a credit card company, that gave it to a service provider, that thought that I was going to, when I bought a holiday to come to Europe, that I might want travel insurance. Now some might say there's value in that. And other's say there's not, there's the debate. But let's just focus on what we're talking about. We're talking about a framework for governance of the treatment of data. If we remove all the emotive component, what we are talking about is a series of guidelines, backed by laws, that say, "We would like you to do this," in an ideal world. But I don't think anyone's going to go to jail, on day one. They may go to jail on day 180. If they continue to do nothing about it. So they're asking you to sort of sit up and pay attention. Do something about it. There's a whole bunch of relief around how you approach it. The big thing for me, is there's no get out of jail card, right? There is no get out of jail card for not complying. But there's plenty of support. I mean, we're going to have ambulance chasers everywhere. We're going to have class actions. We're going to have individual suits. The greatest thing to do right now is get into GDPR law. Because you seem to think data scientists are unicorn? >> What kind of life is that if there's ambulance chasers everywhere? You want to live like that? >> Well I think we've seen ad blocking. I use ad blocking as an example, right? A lot of organizations with advertising broke the internet by just throwing too much content on pages, to the point where they're just unusable. And so we had this response with ad blocking. I think in many ways, GDPR is a regional response to a situation where I don't think it's the exact right answer. But it's the next evolutional step. We'll see things evolve over time. >> It's funny you mentioned it because in the United States one of the things that has happened, is that with the change in political administrations, the regulations on what companies can do with your data have actually been laxened, to the point where, for example, your internet service provider can resell your browsing history, with or without your consent. Or your consent's probably buried in there, on page 47. And so, GDPR is kind of a response to saying, "You know what? "You guys over there across the Atlantic "are kind of doing some fairly "irresponsible things with what you allow companies to do." Now, to Lillian's point, no one's probably going to go after the pizza shop in Nebraska because they don't do business in the EU. They don't have an EU presence. And it's unlikely that an EU regulator's going to get on a plane from Brussels and fly to Topeka and say, or Omaha, sorry, "Come on Joe, let's get the pizza shop in order here." But for companies, particularly Cloud companies, that have offices and operations within the EU, they have to sit up and pay attention. So if you have any kind of EU operations, or any kind of fiscal presence in the EU, you need to get on board. >> But to Lillian's point it becomes a boondoggle for lawyers in the EU who want to go after deep pocketed companies like Facebook and Google. >> What's the value in that? It seems like regulators are just trying to create work for themselves. >> What about the things that say advertisers can do, not so much with the data that they have? With the data that they don't have. In other words, they have people called data scientists who build models that can do inferences on sparse data. And do amazing things in terms of personalization. What do you do about all those gray areas? Where you got machine learning models and so forth? >> But it applies-- >> It applies to personally identifiable information. But if you have a talented enough data scientist, you don't need the PII or even the inferred characteristics. If a certain type of behavior happens on your website, for example. And this path of 17 pages almost always leads to a conversion, it doesn't matter who you are or where you're coming from. If you're a good enough data scientist, you can build a model that will track that. >> Like you know, target, infer some young woman was pregnant. And they inferred correctly even though that was never divulged. I mean, there's all those gray areas that, how can you stop that slippery slope? >> Well I'm going to weigh in really quickly. A really interesting experiment for people to do. When people get very emotional about it I say to them, "Go to Google.com, "view source, put it in seven point Courier "font in Word and count how many pages it is." I guess you can't guess how many pages? It's 52 pages of seven point Courier font, HTML to render one logo, and a search field, and a click button. Now why do we need 52 pages of HTML source code and Java script just to take a search query. Think about what's being done in that. It's effectively a mini operating system, to figure out who you are, and what you're doing, and where you been. Now is that a good or bad thing? I don't know, I'm not going to make a judgment call. But what I'm saying is we need to stop and take a deep breath and say, "Does anybody need a 52 page, "home page to take a search query?" Because that's just the tip of the iceberg. >> To that point, I like the results that Google gives me. That's why I use Google and not Bing. Because I get better search results. So, yeah, I don't mind if you mine my personal data and give me, our Facebook ads, those are the only ads, I saw in your article that GDPR is going to take out targeted advertising. The only ads in the entire world, that I like are Facebook ads. Because I actually see products I'm interested in. And I'm happy to learn about that. I think, "Oh I want to research that. "I want to see this new line of products "and what are their competitors?" And I like the targeted advertising. I like the targeted search results because it's giving me more of the information that I'm actually interested in. >> And that's exactly what it's about. You can still decide, yourself, if you want to have this targeted advertising. If not, then you don't give consent. If you like it, you give consent. So if a company gives you value, you give consent back. So it's not that it's restricting everything. It's giving consent. And I think it's similar to what happened and the same type of response, what happened, we had the Mad Cow Disease here in Europe, where you had the whole food chain that needed to be tracked. And everybody said, "No, it's not required." But now it's implemented. Everybody in Europe does it. So it's the same, what probably going to happen over here as well. >> So what does GDPR mean for data scientists? >> I think GDPR is, I think it is needed. I think one of the things that may be slowing data science down is fear. People are afraid to share their data. Because they don't know what's going to be done with it. If there are some guidelines around it that should be enforced and I think, you know, I think it's been said but as long as a company could prove that it's doing due diligence to protect your data, I think no one is going to go to jail. I think when there's, you know, we reference a crime scene, if there's a heinous crime being committed, all right, then it's going to become obvious. And then you do go directly to jail. But I think having guidelines and even laws around privacy and protection of data is not necessarily a bad thing. You can do a lot of data, really meaningful data science, without understanding that it's Joe Caserta. All of the demographics about me. All of the characteristics about me as a human being, I think are still on the table. All that they're saying is that you can't go after Joe, himself, directly. And I think that's okay. You know, there's still a lot of things. We could still cure diseases without knowing that I'm Joe Caserta, right? As long as you know everything else about me. And I think that's really at the core, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to protect the individual and the individual's data about themselves. But I think as far as how it affects data science, you know, a lot of our clients, they're afraid to implement things because they don't exactly understand what the guideline is. And they don't want to go to jail. So they wind up doing nothing. So now that we have something in writing that, at least, it's something that we can work towards, I think is a good thing. >> In many ways, organizations are suffering from the deer in the headlight problem. They don't understand it. And so they just end up frozen in the headlights. But I just want to go back one step if I could. We could get really excited about what it is and is not. But for me, the most critical thing there is to remember though, data breaches are happening. There are over 1,400 data breaches, on average, per day. And most of them are not trivial. And when we saw 1/2 a billion from Yahoo. And then one point one billion and then one point five billion. I mean, think about what that actually means. There were 47,500 Mongodbs breached in an 18 hour window, after an automated upgrade. And they were airlines, they were banks, they were police stations. They were hospitals. So when I think about frameworks like GDPR, I'm less worried about whether I'm going to see ads and be sold stuff. I'm more worried about, and I'll give you one example. My 12 year old son has an account at a platform called Edmodo. Now I'm not going to pick on that brand for any reason but it's a current issue. Something like, I think it was like 19 million children in the world had their username, password, email address, home address, and all this social interaction on this Facebook for kids platform called Edmodo, breached in one night. Now I got my hands on a copy. And everything about my son is there. Now I have a major issue with that. Because I can't do anything to undo that, nothing. The fact that I was able to get a copy, within hours on a dark website, for free. The fact that his first name, last name, email, mobile phone number, all these personal messages from friends. Nobody has the right to allow that to breach on my son. Or your children, or our children. For me, GDPR, is a framework for us to try and behave better about really big issues. Whether it's a socialist issue. Whether someone's got an issue with advertising. I'm actually not interested in that at all. What I'm interested in is companies need to behave much better about the treatment of data when it's the type of data that's being breached. And I get really emotional when it's my son, or someone else's child. Because I don't care if my bank account gets hacked. Because they hedge that. They underwrite and insure themselves and the money arrives back to my bank. But when it's my wife who donated blood and a blood donor website got breached and her details got lost. Even things like sexual preferences. That they ask questions on, is out there. My 12 year old son is out there. Nobody has the right to allow that to happen. For me, GDPR is the framework for us to focus on that. >> Dave: Lillian, is there a comment you have? >> Yeah, I think that, I think that security concerns are 100% and definitely a serious issue. Security needs to be addressed. And I think a lot of the stuff that's happening is due to, I think we need better security personnel. I think we need better people working in the security area where they're actually looking and securing. Because I don't think you can regulate I was just, I wanted to take the microphone back when you were talking about taking someone to jail. Okay, I have a background in law. And if you look at this, you guys are calling it a framework. But it's not a framework. What they're trying to do is take 4% of your business revenues per infraction. They want to say, "If a person signs up "on your email list and you didn't "like, necessarily give whatever "disclaimer that the EU said you need to give. "Per infraction, we're going to take "4% of your business revenue." That's a law, that they're trying to put into place. And you guys are talking about taking people to jail. What jail are you? EU is not a country. What jurisdiction do they have? Like, you're going to take pizza man Joe and put him in the EU jail? Is there an EU jail? Are you going to take them to a UN jail? I mean, it's just on its' face it doesn't hold up to legal tests. I don't understand how they could enforce this. >> I'd like to just answer the question on-- >> Security is a serious issue. I would be extremely upset if I were you. >> I personally know, people who work for companies who've had data breaches. And I respect them all. They're really smart people. They've got 25 plus years in security. And they are shocked that they've allowed a breach to take place. What they've invariably all agreed on is that a whole range of drivers have caused them to get to a bad practice. So then, for example, the donate blood website. The young person who was assist admin with all the right skills and all the right experience just made a basic mistake. They took a db dump of a mysql database before they upgraded their Wordpress website for the business. And they happened to leave it in a folder that was indexable by Google. And so somebody wrote a radio expression to search in Google to find sql backups. Now this person, I personally respect them. I think they're an amazing practitioner. They just made a mistake. So what does that bring us back to? It brings us back to the point that we need a safety net or a framework or whatever you want to call it. Where organizations have checks and balances no matter what they do. Whether it's an upgrade, a backup, a modification, you know. And they all think they do, but invariably we've seen from the hundreds of thousands of breaches, they don't. Now on the point of law, we could debate that all day. I mean the EU does have a remit. If I was caught speeding in Germany, as an Australian, I would be thrown into a German jail. If I got caught as an organization in France, breaching GDPR, I would be held accountable to the law in that region, by the organization pursuing me. So I think it's a bit of a misnomer saying I can't go to an EU jail. I don't disagree with you, totally, but I think it's regional. If I get a speeding fine and break the law of driving fast in EU, it's in the country, in the region, that I'm caught. And I think GDPR's going to be enforced in that same approach. >> All right folks, unfortunately the 60 minutes flew right by. And it does when you have great guests like yourselves. So thank you very much for joining this panel today. And we have an action packed day here. So we're going to cut over. The CUBE is going to have its' interview format starting in about 1/2 hour. And then we cut over to the main tent. Who's on the main tent? Dez, you're doing a main stage presentation today. Data Science is a Team Sport. Hillary Mason, has a breakout session. We also have a breakout session on GDPR and what it means for you. Are you ready for GDPR? Check out ibmgo.com. It's all free content, it's all open. You do have to sign in to see the Hillary Mason and the GDPR sessions. And we'll be back in about 1/2 hour with the CUBE. We'll be running replays all day on SiliconAngle.tv and also ibmgo.com. So thanks for watching everybody. Keep it right there, we'll be back in about 1/2 hour with the CUBE interviews. We're live from Munich, Germany, at Fast Track Your Data. This is Dave Vellante with Jim Kobielus, we'll see you shortly. (electronic music)