>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone and welcome back to Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. We are live at MWC 23. This is day two of our coverage, we're giving you four days of coverage, but you already know that because you were here yesterday. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Dave this show is massive. I was walking in this morning and almost getting claustrophobic with the 80,000 people that are joining us. There is, seems to be at MWC 23 more interest in enterprise-class technology than we've ever seen before. What are some of the things that you've observed with that regard? >> Well I've observed a lot of people racing to the highest level messaging about how wonderful it is to have the kiss of a breeze on your cheek, and to feel the flowing wheat. (laughing) I want to hear about the actual things that make this stuff possible. >> Right. >> So I think we have a couple of guests here who can help us start to go down that path of actually understanding the real cool stuff that's behind the scenes. >> And absolutely we got some cool stuff. We've got two guests from Dell. Dave Lincoln is here, the VP of Networking and Emerging the Server Solutions, and Deania Davidson, Director Edge Server Product Planning and Management at Dell. So great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Two Daves, and a Davidson. >> (indistinct) >> Just me who stands alone here. (laughing) So guys talk about, Dave, we'll start with you the newest generation of PowerEdge servers. What's new? Why is it so exciting? What challenges for telecom operators is it solving? >> Yeah, well so this is actually Dell's largest server launch ever. It's the most expansive, which is notable because of, we have a pretty significant portfolio. We're very proud of our core mainstream portfolio. But really since the Supercompute in Dallas in November, that we started a rolling thunder of launches. MWC being part of that leading up to DTW here in May, where we're actually going to be announcing big investments in those parts of the market that are the growth segments of server. Specifically AIML, where we in, to address that. We're investing heavy in our XE series which we, as I said, we announced at Supercompute in November. And then we have to address the CSP segment, a big investment around the HS series which we just announced, and then lastly, the edge telecom segment which we're, we had the biggest investment, biggest announce in portfolio launch with XR series. >> Deania, lets dig into that. >> Yeah. >> Where we see the growth coming from you mentioned telecom CSPs with the edge. What are some of the growth opportunities there that organizations need Dell's help with to manage, so that they can deliver what they're demanding and user is wanting? >> The biggest areas being obviously, in addition the telecom has been the biggest one, but the other areas too we're seeing is in retail and manufacturing as well. And, so internally, I mean we're going to be focused on hardware, but we also have a solutions team who are working with us to build the solutions focused on retail, and edge and telecom as well on top of the servers that we'll talk about shortly. >> What are some of the biggest challenges that retailers and manufacturers are facing? And during the pandemic retailers, those that were successful pivoted very quickly to curbside delivery. >> Deania: Yeah. >> Those that didn't survive weren't able to do that digitally. >> Deania: Yeah. >> But we're seeing such demand. >> Yeah. >> At the retail edge. On the consumer side we want to get whatever we want right now. >> Yes. >> It has to be delivered, it has to be personalized. Talk a little bit more about some of the challenges there, within those two verticals and how Dell is helping to address those with the new server technologies. >> For retail, I think there's couple of things, the one is like in the fast food area. So obviously through COVID a lot of people got familiar and comfortable with driving through. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And so there's probably a certain fast food restaurant everyone's pretty familiar with, they're pretty efficient in that, and so there are other customers who are trying to replicate that, and so how do we help them do that all, from a technology perspective. From a retail, it's one of the pickup and the online experience, but when you go into a store, I don't know about you but I go to Target, and I'm looking for something and I have kids who are kind of distracting you. Its like where is this one thing, and so I pull up the Target App for example, and it tells me where its at, right. And then obviously, stores want to make more money, so like hey, since you picked this thing, there are these things around you. So things like that is what we're having conversations with customers about. >> It's so interesting because the demand is there. >> Yeah, it is. >> And its not going to go anywhere. >> No. >> And it's certainly not going to be dialed down. We're not going to want less stuff, less often. >> Yeah (giggles) >> And as typical consumers, we don't necessarily make the association between what we're seeing in the palm of our hand on a mobile device. >> Deania: Right. >> And the infrastructure that's actually supporting all of it. >> Deania: Right. >> People hear the term Cloud and they think cloud-phone mystery. >> Yeah, magic just happens. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But in fact, in order to support the things that we want to be able to do. >> Yeah. >> On the move, you have to optimize the server hardware. >> Deania: Yes. >> In certain ways. What does that mean exactly? When you say that its optimized, what are the sorts of decisions that you make when you're building? I think of this in the terms of Lego bricks. >> Yes, yeah >> Put together. What are some of the decisions that you make? >> So there were few key things that we really had to think about in terms of what was different from the Data center, which obviously supports the cloud environment, but it was all about how do we get closer to the customer right? How do we get things really fast and how do we compute that information really quickly. So for us, it's things like size. All right, so our server is going to weigh one of them is the size of a shoe box and (giggles), we have a picture with Dave. >> Dave: It's true. >> Took off his shoe. >> Its actually, its actually as big as a shoe. (crowd chuckles) >> It is. >> It is. >> To be fair, its a pretty big shoe. >> True, true. >> It is, but its small in relative to the old big servers that you see. >> I see what you're doing, you find a guy with a size 12, (crowd giggles) >> Yeah. >> Its the size of your shoe. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Its literally the size of a shoe, and that's our smallest server and its the smallest one in the portfolio, its the XR 4000, and so we've actually crammed a lot of technology in there going with the Intel ZRT processors for example to get into that compute power. The XR 8000 which you'll be hearing a lot more about shortly with our next guest is one I think from a telco perspective is our flagship product, and its size was a big thing there too. Ruggedization so its like (indistinct) certification, so it can actually operate continuously in negative 5 to 55 C, which for customers, or they need that range of temperature operation, flexibility was a big thing too. In meaning that, there are some customers who wanted to have one system in different areas of deployment. So can I take this one system and configure it one way, take that same system, configure another way and have it here. So flexibility was really key for us as well, and so we'll actually be seeing that in the next segment coming. >> I think one of, some of the common things you're hearing from this is our focus on innovation, purpose build servers, so yes our times, you know economic situation like in itself is tough yeah. But far from receding we've doubled down on investment and you've seen that with the products that we are launching here, and we will be launching in the years to come. >> I imagine there's a pretty sizeable day impact to the total adjustable market for PowerEdge based on the launch what you're doing, its going to be a tam, a good size tam expansion. >> Yeah, absolutely. Depending on how you look at it, its roughly we add about $30 Billion of adjustable tam between the three purposeful series that we've launched, XE, HS and XR. >> Can you comment on, I know Dell and customers are like this. Talk about, I'd love to get both of your perspective, I'm sure you have a favorite customer stories. But talk about the involvement of the customer in the generation, and the evolution of PowerEdge. Where are they in that process? What kind of feedback do they deliver? >> Well, I mean, just to start, one thing that is essential Cortana of Dell period, is it all is about the customer. All of it, everything that we do is about the customer, and so there is a big focus at our level, from on high to get out there and talk with customers, and actually we have a pretty good story around XR8000 which is call it our flagship of the XR line that we've just announced, and because of this deep customer intimacy, there was a last minute kind of architectural design change. >> Hm-mm. >> Which actually would have been, come to find out it would have been sort of a fatal flaw for deployment. So we corrected that because of this tight intimacy with our customers. This was in two Thanksgiving ago about and, so anyways it's super cool and the fact that we were able to make a change so late in development cycle, that's a testament to a lot of the speed and, speed of innovation that we're driving, so anyway that was that's one, just case of one example. >> Hm-mm. >> Let talk about AI, we can't go to any trade show without talking about AI, the big thing right now is ChatGPT. >> Yeah. >> I was using it the other day, it's so interesting. But, the growing demand for AI, talk about how its driving the evolution of the server so that more AI use cases can become more (indistinct). >> In the edge space primarily, we actually have another product, so I guess what you'll notice in the XR line itself because there are so many different use cases and technologies that support the different use cases. We actually have a range form factor, so we have really small, I guess I would say 350 ml the size of a shoe box, you know, Dave's shoe box. (crowd chuckles) And then we also have, at the other end a 472, so still small, but a little bit bigger, but we did recognize obviously AI was coming up, and so that is our XR 7620 platform and that does support 2 GPUs right, so, like for Edge infrencing, making sure that we have the capability to support customers in that too, but also in the small one, we do also have a GPU capability there, that also helps in those other use cases as well. So we've built the platforms even though they're small to be able to handle the GPU power for customers. >> So nice tight package, a lot of power there. >> Yes. >> Beside as we've all clearly demonstrated the size of Dave's shoe. (crowd chuckles) Dave, talk about Dell's long standing commitment to really helping to rapidly evolve the server market. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Its a pivotal payer there. >> Well, like I was saying, we see innovation, I mean, this is, to us its a race to the top. You talked about racing and messaging that sort of thing, when you opened up the show here, but we see this as a race to the top, having worked at other server companies where maybe its a little bit different, maybe more of a race to the bottom source of approach. That's what I love about being at Dell. This is very much, we understand that it's innovation is that is what's going to deliver the most value for our customers. So whether its some of the first to market, first of its kind sort of innovation that you find in the XR4000, or XR8000, or any of our XE line, we know that at the end of day, that is what going to propel Dell, do the best for our customers and thereby do the best for us. To be honest, its a little bit surprising walking by some of our competitors booths, there's been like a dearth of zero, like no, like it's almost like you wouldn't even know that there was a big launch here right? >> Yeah. >> Or is it just me? >> No. >> It was a while, we've been walking around and yet we've had, and its sort of maybe I should take this as a flattery, but a lot of our competitors have been coming by to our booth everyday actually. >> Deania: Yeah, everyday. >> They came by multiple times yesterday, they came by multiple times today, they're taking pictures of our stuff I kind of want to just send 'em a sample. >> Lisa: Or your shoe. >> Right? Or just maybe my shoe right? But anyway, so I suppose I should take it as an honor. >> Deania: Yeah. >> And conversely when we've walked over there we actually get in back (indistinct), maybe I need a high Dell (indistinct). (crowd chuckles) >> We just had that experience, yeah. >> Its kind of funny but. >> Its a good position to be in. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> You talked about the involvement of the customers, talk a bit more about Dell's ecosystem is also massive, its part of what makes Dell, Dell. >> Wait did you say ego-system? (laughing) After David just. >> You caught that? Darn it! The talk about the influence or the part of the ecosystem and also some of the feedback from the partners as you've been rapidly evolving the server market and clearly your competitors are taking notice. >> Yeah, sorry. >> Deania: That's okay. >> Dave: you want to take that? >> I mean I would say generally, one of the things that Dell prides itself on is being able to deliver the worlds best innovation into the hands of our customers, faster and better that any other, the optimal solution. So whether its you know, working with our great partners like Intel, AMD Broadcom, these sorts of folks. That is, at the end of the day that is our core mantra, again its retractor on service, doing the best, you know, what's best for the customers. And we want to bring the world's best innovation from our technology partners, get it into the hands of our partners you know, faster and better than any other option out there. >> Its a satisfying business for all of us to be in, because to your point, I made a joke about the high level messaging. But really, that's what it comes down to. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> We do these things, we feel like sometimes we're toiling in obscurity, working with the hardware. But what it delivers. >> Deania: Hm-mm. >> The experiences. >> Dave: Absolutely. >> Deania: Yes. >> Are truly meaningful. So its a fun. >> Absolutely. >> Its a really fun thing to be a part of. >> It is. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Is there a favorite customer story that you have that really articulates the value of what Dell is doing, full PowerEdge, at the Edge? >> Its probably one I can't particularly name obviously but, it was, they have different environments, so, in one case there's like on flights or on sea vessels, and just being able to use the same box in those different environments is really cool. And they really appreciate having the small compact, where they can just take the server with them and go somewhere. That was really cool to me in terms of how they were using the products that we built for them. >> I have one that's kind of funny. It around XR8000. Again a customer I won't name but they're so proud of it, they almost kinds feel like they co defined it with us, they want to be on the patent with us so, anyways that's. >> Deania: (indistinct). >> That's what they went in for, yeah. >> So it shows the strength of the partnership that. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Of course, the ecosystem of partners, customers, CSVs, telecom Edge. Guys thank you so much for joining us today. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Sharing what's new with the PowerEdge. We can't wait to, we're just, we're cracking open the box, we saw the shoe. (laughing) And we're going to be dealing a little bit more later. So thank you. >> We're going to be able to touch something soon? >> Yes, yes. >> Yeah. >> In couple of minutes? >> Next segment I think. >> All right! >> Thanks for setting the table for that guys. We really appreciate your time. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> Alright, our pleasure. >> For our guests and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin . You're watching theCUBE. The leader in live tech coverage, LIVE in Barcelona, Spain, MWC 23. Don't go anywhere, we will be right back with our next guests. (gentle music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Virtual the Cube Virtual. We're here covering the partner ecosystem and some of the new innovations coming from the reinvent community. Let's talk about something that anyone who drives a vehicle can relate to. Roadside assistance with me or Beth Davidson, chief marketing officer at a zero, and Raj borrows the vice president and c t o at zero folks, welcome to the Cube. >>Hello, nice to see you. >>So let's start with you. Maybe talk a little bit about your your mission, how you work with automakers. You've got, you know, a lot of good pipeline, their insurers and other others in the in the ecosystem. Tell us about the company. >>Absolutely. So for 50 years, we've been helping consumers with their cars. Um, that's what it comes down Thio. We know that one in three people has a roadside event every year on the way you think about that is, you know, if in three years you haven't had a roadside event, tick tock. You know, statistically, it's coming for you. We work with everybody. We work with the auto manufacturers. We work with the insurers. What we're trying to do is get closer to consumers. On the reason you may have never heard of a Gero is that's by design. Were white label. We work for our clients typically on. Do you know they trust us with their consumers? They trust us with their brands. Um, and we're just in the business of getting consumers back on the road. >>Thank you for that. So talk a little bit about how you approach this problem. I mean, you looked out roadside assistance, and you know, we can again all relate. Oh, am I up to date or at least the car? So there's gotta be some kind of 800 number in my glove compartment somewhere, right? So what was the state of roadside assistance before you guys got involved? And maybe we could get into sort of how you solve the problem. >>Yeah, I think that's a great question, Dave, as we look at roadside assistance, everyone things about picking up the phone number 800 number from the glove box compartment And over the years we have invested heavily on bringing a fully digital experience to our customers from insurance companies to AM. And when this Alexa opportunity came up earlier this summer, he said, Hi. How about taking that digital experience, adding, all the Alexa do goods goods about voice interaction, making it very interactive for the users to request that experience in a very normal consumer friendly, friendly were and brought that we integrated all those services got that whole uber like experience with for roadside assistance? >>Yeah. Now. So, Beth, you know, I reminded when, like the smart TV first came out, you had a type in right, and we're really getting spoiled now. It should be easy as a blink. Okay, so you're unveiling blink, you know, what's this service all about? >>So this service is about, you know, trying to get to consumers as easy as we can and getting removing the friction. Right? So what Rogers just talking about is again we asked consumers. We say, you know, imagine that tomorrow you went out and there was a flat tire on your car in your driveway. What do you dio? And universally, they pause and They're like, I don't know. I haven't thought about it, right. And then they start making up stuff. Like maybe I'm gonna go through the glove box. Maybe I'm going to go through my files. But wouldn't it be great if they could just kind of talked to the air and say, Alexa, what? Doe ideo and have it work for them, you know, And that's one friction. The second friction is consumers actually don't know their addresses or don't know it. Well, we joke around the office about the difference between saying you're on route one and Route one A is is the difference between 20 minutes of that tow truck getting to you in time. You know, these air points of friction that technology can help us with, you know, and then with payments even better, Right? So the fact that you can pay for this thing with Amazon pay and you don't have to worry about having cash for a driver or have a credit card. I mean, there's just so many points of friction that are reduced by using Alexa. >>Okay, so let's talk about the the integrations here in the technical aspects of how you put everything together and made it work, and we'll get into some of the cloud aspect >>Attack launched. We're asking users to tell what they want, and they can tell the whole address. They can get the address from the Alexa device. Or if it is Alexa Auto. The GPS will provide us the Latin belong. And we take that address and we get what kind of experience they want. Whether it is a flat tire, we're going to send somebody else to put despair. If it is a jump start, we're gonna put send somebody Thio jumps out the vehicle. So depending on that, we put pull all that information together, get this consent for the user to charge their an Amazon parrot card on profile, and then go So it's literally to come to sentences. And then we're on. We're on to sending you experience with some of the text messages that will allow you to truck tractor truck coming down to your driver. >>Now I'll show my age. So yeah, we've all I don't have all but I've been locked out of the car many times Now, in the old days, used to be able to get a coat hanger and pop it open. But so? So that people still get locked out of their cars. >>Yes, cars. More often than not, it's, you know, the key. Fob stopped working, right? Lost the battery of my key fob these days. But it's the equivalent. >>Alright, so All right, so right. What else do you guys do in the cloud? Do you use a W s for your own business? Maybe share with us some of >>the over the years. For the past 78 years, we have, uh, integrated and got all of our technologies into the AWS cloud. And we have now revamped and re innovated on top of those and create a new product lines. We have accident scene management. We do, um, handle automatic clash notifications for some of our partner customers. We dio dealer service appointments, so we do a lot of these things. And all of these are not possible without the amazing teams. 20 or so teams that we have across three continents working on 50 plus, uh, approved services on aws, uh, innovating around the clock, bringing these new innovations to our market. >>So, Beth, you were saying earlier that you, you know, want to reach out to the consumer. I mean, how do you market? Uh, you obviously go through through partners. And I'm curious system, What's your go to market and maybe how you're different from from others in the marketplace, >>right? Eso again because we're white label with most of the client side business that we do, we help our clients message better on DSO. We talked to them about how often you have to remind people that this isn't a one and done, um, on the skill store for Alexa. You know how we're different is you know, you don't aske much as I love the branding that we came up with blank roadside. You know, you don't actually have to use it. You don't have to say, Alexa, open my blank roadside. You could just say, Alexa, help me with my flat tire, which really helps cut out the fact that I actually need to market the brand like a traditional market or would have had Thio. But our biggest problem is how do you market something to someone in that moment of need, right? How do I How do I prime you to get you to think about it way, way before you ever actually have the problem. >>And how do you charge for the service? >>Eso It's it's a flat fee on did. It's better than what consumers would be able to get on their own. Or at least we believe so. But it is a flat fee for any kind of road service, so it's flat tire. It's dead batteries. It's winching you out. You know, it's it's all of those things. Um, that can happen to you that are just kind of those minor everyday mishaps. >>Okay? And so and so do I. How do I get it? Do I do I have tow hope that my you know, if I'm leasing a car that the auto has it, can I go direct? How doe I >>all direct? It's all direct. So you don't have to worry about an I d number membership number. You're just paying for it out of your Amazon account on. Do you know you don't have to worry about knowing your how many digit vin number. You know, none of that stuff. It's just one and done. >>Awesome. So, Raja, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your your scale. Um, maybe I don't know if you can share any metrics and what What factors? The cloud generally and a W s specifically has has played and enabling that scale. >>Yeah, we have amazing number of integrations with our Fortune 100 insurance companies. Um, over 35 insurance companies and we have 100 and 70 b two b clients today, Um, and we integrate with them were deeply, um, uh integrated into the building systems into their coverage systems. And all of that is to be able to provide that sub minute sub second experience to our customers when they're calling in, uh, when they need the service. Um, right now we do over a billion AP A calls. As a result of these transactions, all these integrations or for quarter and all of these, uh, our third parties, service providers who go around the on the roads and provide this location information today off the tow trucks to us, all of these 8 8000 or so trucks extreme that information to us almost on every hour. So we bring all that information together on the AWS platform, stream it back shaded back in a very secure private manner back to the customers, right at the moment of need. >>Yeah, So I mean, without the cloud, you'd be backing up. You know, the servers to the truck to the loading dock. And it would just take so much longer toe spin up new products. I would imagine that you guys have a lot of ideas about new data products or new services that you can you can provide. Um, you probably I'm sure you can tell us what they are, But but in terms of the time, it takes you to conceive toe to get to the market. That must be impressed with the cloud. >>Yeah, it's a fraction of what it used to take years ago when we were not in AWS, right? And it also allows us to not to spend all this time on worrying about the same thing that you used to worry about for every project. Now you can actually think about how, what how you let be able to leverage new innovations that are coming in and actually improve improve the experience with some kind of intelligence that is added on, which makes the experience much smoother for people. >>Well, Beth will give you last word. But first of all, thanks for helping us make our lives even even better and more convenient. But bring us home. What's the last word here? >>So the last word is, you know, we dio we do 12 million events a year right now, right? And if you if you like math, it's 35,000 day. It's 20 for every minute, you know. And the work that that Rajan team have done to make the scalable means we're ready to do the next 12 million on. Do you know we know. We know there are consumers out there having those events. We just want to be there for you, you know, take care of that frustrating event on get you back >>on the road. Well, it's just, you know, having you there and being able to push a button and talk to a device is just It's a game changer. So thank you guys for coming on the cube and sharing your story really interesting. Yeah. All right. Thanks for watching. Keep it right there. You're watching the cubes coverage of aws reinvent 2020. We'll be right back right after this short break

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hi everybody this is Dave Volante and welcome to this special digital cube presentation sponsored by IBM we're going to focus in on data op data ops in action a lot of practitioners tell us that they really have challenges operationalizing in infusing AI into the data pipeline we're going to talk to some practitioners and really understand how they're solving this problem and really pleased to bring Victoria stayshia vich who's the Global Information Systems Manager for information management at harley-davidson Vik thanks for coming to the cube great to see you wish we were face to face but really appreciate your coming on in this manner that's okay that's why technology's great right so you you are steeped in a data role at harley-davidson can you describe a little bit about what you're doing and what that role is like definitely so obviously a manager of information management >> governance at harley-davidson and what my team is charged with is building out data governance at an enterprise level as well as supporting the AI and machine learning technologies within my function right so I have a portfolio that portfolio really includes DNA I and governance and also our master data and reference data and data quality function if you're familiar with the dama wheel of course what I can tell you is that my team did an excellent job within this last year in 2019 standing up the infrastructure so those technologies right specific to governance as well as their newer more modern warehouse on cloud technologies and cloud objects tour which also included Watson Studio and Watson Explorer so many of the IBM errs of the world might hear about obviously IBM ISEE or work on it directly we stood that up in the cloud as well as db2 warehouse and cloud like I said in cloud object store we spent about the first five months of last year standing that infrastructure up working on the workflow ensuring that access security management was all set up and can within the platform and what we did the last half of the year right was really start to collect that metadata as well as the data itself and bring the metadata into our metadata repository which is rx metadata base without a tie FCE and then also bring that into our db2 warehouse on cloud environment so we were able to start with what we would consider our dealer domain for harley-davidson and bring those dimensions within to db2 warehouse on cloud which was never done before a lot of the information that we were collecting and bringing together for the analytics team lived in disparate data sources throughout the enterprise so the goal right was to stop with redundant data across the enterprise eliminate some of those disparity to source data resources right and bring it into a centralized repository for reporting okay Wow we got a lot to unpack here Victoria so but let me start with sort of the macro picture I mean years ago you see the data was this thing that had to be managed and it still does but it was a cost was largely a liability you know governance was sort of front and center sometimes you know it was the tail that wagged the value dog and then the whole Big Data movement comes in and everybody wants to be data-driven and so you saw some pretty big changes in just the way in which people looked at data they wanted to you know mine that data and make it an asset versus just a straight liability so what what are the changes that you discerned in in data and in your organization over the last let's say half a decade we to tell you the truth we started looking at access management and the ability to allow some of our users to do some rapid prototyping that they could never do before so what more and more we're seeing as far as data citizens or data scientists right or even analysts throughout most enterprises is it well they want access to the information they want it now they want speed to insight at this moment using pretty much minimal Viable Product they may not need the entire data set and they don't want to have to go through leaps and bounds right to just get access to that information or to bring that information into necessarily a centralized location so while I talk about our db2 warehouse on cloud and that's an excellent example of one we actually need to model data we know that this is data that we trust right that's going to be called upon many many times from many many analysts right there's other information out there that people are collecting because there's so much big data right there's so many ways to enrich your data within your organization for your customer reporting the people are really trying to tap into those third-party datasets so what my team has done what we're seeing right change throughout the industry is that a lot of teams and a lot of enterprises are looking at s technologists how can we enable our scientists and our analysts right the ability to access data virtually so instead of repeating right recuperating redundant data sources we're actually ambling data virtualization at harley-davidson and we've been doing that first working with our db2 warehouse on cloud and connecting to some of our other trusted versions of data warehouses that we have throughout the enterprise that being our dealer warehouse as well to enable obviously analysts to do some quick reporting without having to bring all that data together that is a big change I see the fact that we were able to tackle that that's allowed technology to get back ahead because most backup Furnish say most organizations right have given IT the bad rap wrap up it takes too long to get what we need my technologists cannot give me my data at my fingertips in a timely manner to not allow for speed to insight and answers the business questions at point of time of delivery most and we've supplied data to our analysts right they're able to calculate aggregate brief the reporting metrics to get those answers back to the business but they're a week two weeks too late the information is no longer relevant so data virtualization through data Ops is one of the ways and we've been able to speed that up and act as a catalyst for data delivery but we've also done though and I see this quite a bit is well that's excellent we still need to start classifying our information and labeling that at the system level we've seen most most enterprises right I worked at Blue Cross as well with IBM tool had the same struggle they were trying to eliminate their technology debt reduce their spend reduce the time it takes for resources working on technologies to maintain technologies they want to reduce their their IT portfolio of assets and capabilities that they license today so what do they do to do that it's time to start taking a look at what systems should be classified as essential systems versus those systems that are disparate and could be eliminated and that starts with data governance right so okay so your your main focus is on governance and you talked about real people want answers now they don't want to have to wait they don't want to go big waterfall process so what was what would you say was sort of some of the top challenges in terms of just operationalizing your data pipelining getting to the point that you are today you know I have to be quite honest um standing up the governance framework the methodology behind it right to get it data owners data stewards at a catalog established that was not necessarily the heavy lifting the heavy lifting really came with I'm setting up a brand new infrastructure in the cloud for us to be quite honest um we with IBM partnered and said you know what we're going to the cloud and these tools had never been implemented in the cloud before we were kind of the first do it so some of the struggles that we aren't they or took on and we're actually um standing up the infrastructure security and access management network pipeline access right VPN issues things of that nature I would say is some of the initial roadblocks we went through but after we overcame those challenges with the help of IBM and the patience of both the Harley and IBM team it became quite easy to roll out these technologies to other users the nice thing is right we at harley-davidson have been taking the time to educate our users today up for example we had what we call the data bytes a Lunch and Learn and so in that Lunch and Learn what we did is we took our entire GIS team our global information services team which is all of IT through these new technologies it was a form of over 250 people with our CIO and CTO on and taking them through how do we use these tools what are the purpose of schools why do we need governance to maintain these pools why is metadata management important to the organization that piece of it seems to be much easier than just our initial scanning it up so it's good enough to start letting users in well sounds like you had real sponsorship from from leadership and input from leadership and they were kind of leaning into the whole process first of all is that true and how important is that for success oh it's essential we often said when we were first standing up the tools to be quite honest is our CIO really understand what it is that were for standing up as our CIO really understand governance because we didn't have the time to really get that face-to-face interaction with our leadership so I myself made it a mandate having done this previously at Blue Cross to get in front of my CIO and my CTO and educate them on what it is we are exactly standing up and once we did that it was very easy to get at an executive steering committee as well as an executive membership Council right I'm boarded with our governance council and now they're the champions of that it's never easy that was selling governance to leadership and the ROI is never easy because it's not something that you can easily calculate it's something that has to show its return on investment over time and that means that you're bringing dashboards you're educating your CIO and CTO and how you're bringing people together how groups are now talking about solutions and technologies in a domain like environment right where you have people from at an international level we have people from Asia from Europe from China that join calls every Thursday to talk about the data quality issue specific to dealer for example what systems were using what solutions on there are on the horizon to solve them so that now instead of having people from other countries that work for Harley as well as just even within the US right creating one-off solutions that are answering the same business questions using the same data but creating multiple solutions right to solve the same problem we're now bringing them together and we're solving together and we're prioritizing those as well so that return on investment necessarily down the line you can show that is you know what instead of this printing into five projects we've now turned this into one and instead of implementing four systems we've now implemented one and guess what we have the business rules and we have the classification I to this system so that you CIO or CTO right you now go in and reference this information a glossary a user interface something that a c-level can read interpret understand quickly write dissect the information for their own need without having to take the long lengthy time to talk to a technologist about what does this information mean and how do i how do I use it you know what's interesting is take away based on what you just said is you know harley-davidson is an iconic brand cool company with fuckin motorcycles right and but you came out of an insurance background which is a regulated industry where you know governance is sort of de rigueur right I mean it's it's a table steak so how are you able that arleigh to balance the sort of tension between governance and the sort of business flexibility so there's different there's different lovers I would call them right obviously within healthcare in insurance the importance becomes compliance and risk and regulatory right they're big pushes gosh I don't want to pay millions of dollars for fines start classifying this information enabling security reducing risk all that good stuff right for Harley Davidson it was much different it was more or less we have a mission right we want to invest in our technologies yet we want to save money how do we cut down the technologies that we have today reduce our technology spend yet and able our users have access to more information in a timely manner that's not an easy that's not an easy pass right um so what we did is I took that my married governance part-time model and our time model is specific worried they're gonna tolerate an application we're going to invest in an application we're gonna migrate an application or we're gonna eliminate that so I'm talking to my CIO said you know we can use governance the classifier system help act as a catalyst when we start to implement what it is we're doing with our technologies which technologies are we going to eliminate tomorrow we as IG cannot do that unless we discuss some sort of business impact unless you look at a system and say how many users are using us what reports are essential the business teams do they need this system is this something that's critical for users today to eat is this duplicate 'iv right we have many systems that are solving the same capability that is how I sold that off my CIO and it made it important to the rest of the organization they knew we had a mandate in front of us we had to reduce technology spend and that really for me made it quite easy and talking to other technologists as well as business users on why if governance is important why it's going to help harley-davidson and their mission to save money going forward I will tell you though that the businesses of biggest value right is the fact that they now owns the data they're more likely right to use your master data management systems like I said I'm the owner of our MDM services today as well as our customer knowledge center today they're more likely to access and reference those systems if they feel that they built the rule and they own the rules in those systems so that's another big value add to write as many business users will say ok you know you think I need access to this system I don't know I'm not sure I don't know what the data looks like within it is it easily accessible is it gonna give me the reporting metrics that I need that's where governance will help them for example like our state a scientist beam using a catalog right you can browse your metadata you can look at your server your database your tables your fields understand what those mean understand the classifications the formulas within them right they're all documented in a glossary versus having to go and ask for access to six different systems throughout the enterprise hoping right that's Sally next few that told you you needed access to these systems was right just to find out that you don't need the access and hence it took you three days to get the access anyway that's why a glossary is really a catalyst a lot of that well it's really interesting what you just said about you went through essentially an application rationalization exercise which which saved your organization money that's not always easy because you know businesses even though the you know IIT may be spending money on these systems businesses don't want to give them up but you were able to use it sounds like you're able to use data to actually inform which applications you should invest in versus you know sunset as well you'd sounds like you were giving the business a real incentive to go through this exercise because they ended up as you said owning the data well then what's great right who wants pepper what's using the old power and driving a new car if they can buy the I'm sorry bull owning the old car right driving the old park if they can truly own a new car for a cheaper price nobody wants to do that I've even looked at Tesla's right I can buy a Tesla for the same prices I can buy a minivan these days I think I might buy the Tesla but what I will say is that we also use that we built out a capabilities model with our enterprise architecture team and building that capabilities model we started to bucket our technologies within those capabilities models right like AI machine learning warehouse on cloud technologies are even warehousing technologies governance technologies you know those types of classifications today integrations technologies reporting technologies by kind of grouping all those into a capabilities matrix right and was Eve it was easy for us to then start identifying alright we're the system owners for these when it comes to technologies who are the business users for these based on that right let's go talk to this team the dealer management team about access to this new profiling capability with an IBM or this new catalog with an IBM right that they can use stay versus this sharepoint excel spreadsheets they were using for their metadata management right or the profiling tools that were old you know ten years old some of our sa peoples that they were using before right let's sell them on the noodles and start migrating them that becomes pretty easy because I mean unless you're buying some really old technology when you give people a purview into those new tools and those new capabilities especially with some of the IBM's new tools we have today there the buy-in is pretty quick it's pretty easy to sell somebody on something shiny and it's much easier to use than some of the older technologies let's talk about the business impact in my understanding is you were trying to increase the improve the effectiveness of the dealers not not just go out and brute force sign up more dealers were you able to achieve that outcome and what does it meant for your business yes actually we were so right now what we did is we slipped something called a CDR and that's our consumer dealer and development repository right that's where a lot of our dealer information resides today it's actually argue ler warehouse we had some other systems that we're collecting that information Kalinin like speed for example we were able to bring all that reporting man to one location sunset some of those other technologies but then also enable for that centralized reporting layer which we've also used data virtualization to start to marry submit information to db2 warehouse on cloud for users so we're allowing basically those that want to access CDR and our db2 warehouse and called dealer information to do that within one reporting layer um in doing so we were able to create something called a dealer harmonized ID really which is our version of we have so many dealers today right and some of those dealers actually sell bytes some of those dealers sell just apparel material some of those dealers just sell parts of those dealers right can we have certain you IDs kind of a golden record mastered information if you will right bought back in reporting so that we can accurately assess the dealer performance up to two years ago right it was really hard to do that we had information spread out all over it was really hard to get a good handle on what dealers were performing and what dealers weren't because was it was tough right for our analysts to wrangle that information and bring it together it took time many times we you would get multiple answers to one business question which is never good right one one question should have one answer if it's accurate um that is what we worked on within us last year and that's where really our CEO so the value at is now we can start to act on what dealers are performing at an optimal level versus what dealers are struggling and that's allowed even our account reps or field steel fields that right to go work with those struggling dealers and start to share with them the information of you know these are what some of our stronger dealer performing dealers are doing today that is making them more affecting it inside sorry effective is selling bikes you know these are some of the best practices you can implement that's where we make right our field staff smarter and our dealers smarter we're not looking to shut down dealers we just want to educate them on how to do better well and to your point about a single version of the truth if you will the the lines of business kind of owning their own data that's critical because you're not spending all your time you know pointing at fingers trying to understand the data if the if the users own it then they own it I and so how does self-service fit in were you able to achieve you know some level of self-service how far could you and you go there we were we did use some other tools I'll be quite honest aside from just the IBM tools today that's enabled some of that self-service analytics si PSAC was one of them Alteryx is another big one that we like to that our analyst team likes to use today to wrangle and bring that data together but that really allowed for our analysts spread in our reporting teams to start to build their own derivations their transformations for reporting themselves because they're more user interface space versus going in the backend systems and having to write straight pull right sequel queries things of that nature it usually takes time then requires a deeper level of knowledge then what we'd like to allow for our analysts right to have today I can say the same thing with the data scientist scheme you know they use a lot of the R and Python coding today what we've tried to do is make sure that the tools are available so that they can do everything they need to do without us really having to touch anything and I will be quite honest we have not had to touch much of anything we have a very skilled data scientist team so I will tell you that the tools that we put in place today Watson explore some of the other tools as well they haven't that has enabled the data scientists to really quickly move do what they need to do for reporting and even in cases where maybe Watson or Explorer may not be the optimal technology right for them to use we've also allowed for them to use some of our other resources are open source resources to build some of the models that they're that they were looking to build well I'm glad you brought that up Victoria because IBM makes a big deal out of you know being open and so you're kind of confirming that you can use third-party tools and and if you like you know tool vendor ABC you can use them as part of this framework yeah it's really about TCO right so take a look at what you have today if it's giving you at least 80% of what you need for the business or for your data scientists or reporting analysts right to do what they need to do it's to me it's good enough right it's giving you what you need it's pretty hard to find anything that's exactly 100 percent it's about being open though to when you're scientists or your analysts find another reporting tool right that requires minimal maintenance or let's just say did a scientist flow that requires minimal maintenance it's free right because it's open source IBM can integrate with that and we can enable that to be a quicker way for them to do what they need to do versus telling them no right you can't use the other technologies or the other open source information out there for you today you've got to use just these spools that's pretty tough to do and I think that would shut most IT shops down pretty quick within larger enterprises because it would really act as a roadblock to allow most of our teams right to do what they need to do reporting well last question so a big part of this the data ops you know borrowing from DevOps is this continuous integration continuous improvement you know kind of ongoing MOOC raising the bar if you will what do you see going from here oh I definitely see I see a world I see a world of where we're allowing for that rapid prototyping like I was talking about earlier I see a very big change in the data industry you said it yourself right we are in the brink of big data and it's only gonna get bigger there are organizations right right now that have literally understood how much of an asset their data really is today but they're starting to sell their data ah to other of their similar people are smaller industries right similar vendors within the industry similar spaces right so they can make money off of it because data truly is an asset now the key to it that was obviously making sure that it's curated that it's cleanse that it's rusted so that when you are selling that back you can't really make money off of it but we've seen though and what I really see on the horizon is the ability to vet that data right is in the past what have you been doing the past decade or just buying big data sets we're trusting that it's you know good information we're not doing a lot of profiling at most organizations arts you're gonna pay this big top dollar you're gonna receive this third-party data set and you're not gonna be able to use it the way you need to what I see on the horizon is us being able to do that you know we're building data Lake houses if you will right we're building um really those Hadoop link environments those data lakes right where we can land information we can quickly access it we can quickly profile it with tools that it would take hours for an ALICE write a bunch of queries do to understand what the profile of that data look like we did that recently at harley-davidson we bought and some third-party data evaluated it quickly through our agile scrum team right within a week we determined that the data was not as good as it as the vendor selling it right pretty much sold it to be and so we told the vendor we want our money back the data is not what we thought it would be please take the data sets back now that's just one use case right but to me that was golden it's a way to save money and start betting the data that we're buying otherwise what I would see in the past or what I've seen in the past is many organizations are just buying up big third-party data sets and just saying okay now it's good enough we think that you know just because it comes from the motorcycle and council right for motorcycles and operation Council then it's good enough it may not be it's up to us to start vetting that and that's where technology is going to change data is going to change analytics is going to change is a great example you're really in the cutting edge of this whole data op trend really appreciate you coming on the cube and sharing your insights and there's more in the crowd chatter crowd chatter off the Thank You Victoria for coming on the cube well thank you Dave nice to meet you it was a pleasure speaking with you yeah really a pleasure was all ours and thank you for watching everybody as I say crowd chatting at flash data op or more detail more Q&A this is Dave Volante for the cube keep it right there but right back right after this short break [Music]

>> Voiceover: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's TheCube, covering Sapphire now. Headlines sponsored by SAP Hana Cloud, the leader in platform as a service. With support from Console inc., the Cloud internet company. Now, here's your host, Peter Burris. >> Hello! I'm Peter Burris and welcome back to TheCube, reporting live from Orlando, Florida and SAP Sapphire. We've had a couple of great days, this is the third day that we're doing this and we've got another half dozen or so great guests, please stay with us to get the signal from the noise of what's happening here at Sapphire. Today, well right now I'm speaking to Toby Davidson. Toby has a great job, strategy within SAP anywhere, which actually was announced this week here at Sapphire. Toby, tell us a little bit about what SAP anywhere is. >> SAP anywhere is a front office application. So what that means is it's an application for a small business to use to engage with their customers. So whether you're trying to market to them, have them sell, or purchase through digital commerce or a traditional e-store, social selling, or even brick and mortar retail stores. We provide the capability to the small business to bring all of these channels assail together so they can really truly engage with their customers and deliver a great customer experience. >> So we know pretty well from industry data, but also just anecdotal observation that customers are increasingly asking for digital engagement mechanisms. They walk into a retail store in a very traditional, brick and mortar as you said, but they're bringing their iPhones, they're bringing their Android tablets, they are demanding to be able to complement that experience with the ability to access all sources of information anywhere as part of their experience. Is that the kind of thing that you're helping small organizations or small retailers and other types of shops make happen very quickly within their businesses? >> Yes, absolutely. Certainly it's one of the elements that we're mobile first, so the idea being the application is designed to be used on mobile platforms, tablets, phones, etc. So, not just our customer is able to engage on a mobile platform as well as a computer, run their business the way they want to, access it how they want to, but also taking that to the end customers. So, how do you want to buy from a retailer? Do you want to go in in the store, do a traditional physical purchase with cash or NFC technology of Google for Android pay, that type of thing? Or would you prefer to actually buy online and have goods delivered, or buy online and go and pick it up in the store? Track it on your mobile, work with the retailer the way you want to. And I think we see that transacting both the B to C market, the end consumer market, and also the B to B market. So business to business. We want the experience in B to B commerce that we have when we do our personal banking online on the mobile. Or we're buying from one of the sales platforms, like Ebay, etc, when you're sitting on a train. We want to be able to do that in the B to B environment as well. So we're bringing both of those together. Providing the great experience that we like as a B to C customer. The user interface, the way we interact with the banking systems, the sales systems, the e-commerce platforms, as well as the power that you get in the B to B platforms of pricing that's specifically for you and your business. The order to invoice rather than having to pay with a credit card, tracking the account, the shipping, all of that sort of good stuff. We bring it all together so that the small business can offer that functionality to their customers so that they can actually expand the markets that they work in. They're not restricted by their traditional method of selling. >> So, another very important and interesting announcement, at least in the last couple of weeks, was the SAP Apple partnership. >> Correct, yeah. >> You must be frothing at the mouth. >> Absolutely. >> To start translating that into great deliverables for customers. >> Yes. >> Talk about how SAP anywhere is going to be affected by that announcement and how that ecosystem can be engaged to drive a lot of these new capabilities in smaller, medium-sized enterprises. >> So, I think when you look at the likes of Apple, and yeah, we've had some great discussions with them this week already and it's very exciting. But you look at the adoption of Apple technology within the small business. You know, you look at how the SMB is really adopting Apple-based technology. Everybody has an iPhone, everybody uses a tablet of some sort or other. So what we can really do is if we design our software to work on those platforms well. Things like using the capabilities that they provide natively so we're not just building an application that sits on an iPad, or sits on a phone, what we're actually doing is we're building it so it uses the capabilities and the functionalities that those specific devices use so that when you pick up your phone and you go into SAP anywhere, actually, you already know how it works. Because you're used to using the device. You know how to drive around it. So the user adoption is absolutely huge. Very quickly we can get our customers up and running and live. I think we would also very much like to look at the reach that, Apple has within their retail environment to small business, etc. That's very early days and ongoing discussions, but the ability for us to expand our reach into the market by leveraging the key relationships that we're able to drive as SAP. >> I would think that certainly an SAP anywhere customer would be exciting not, as you said, because their customers are using those devices, and they may themselves also be using those devices, but because Apple has shown what a combination of digital and brick and mortar can mean from an experience standpoint. Do you anticipate that this partnership is going to allow a mom and pop shop somewhere to adopt certain elements of that experience in their businesses? >> Yes, absolutely. And I think it's from two elements, you know? You have the devices, you have the physical capabilities, you also have the mechanisms that are allowed. So if we look at our software, you could buy something online, okay? You go into the equivalent of the Apple store, we're talking a mom and pop shop, the small independent trader, actually that order has been sent through to their device. They're working on an iPad as a point to sale. So, they actually see that the order's coming in, they're expecting you, they can have the order read. You can walk in, you can pay, we partner with Paypal, as well, so you could pay using your phone near the Paypal here device with their NFC technology. So actually, your whole transaction, you may have bought the product on the phone, on the train because we're mobile responsive. You've gone to the store, you've paid for it with the phone, you're given the product. What we can then do is, like any Apple store, "Would you like us to email you a receipt?" You don't want a physical paper copy, have it emailed. Provide the feedback, go on social media, share the news of what you bought so that we then know about you to re-market to you, to enable us to try and expand your purchases with us and breed some customer loyalty with, actually, what is a small business. The large enterprise organizations, the big retailers, they have the capability and the resources to drive that social media, drive that repeat business, ensure that you come back to us in the best way possible by providing the offers based on the learning that we've got from you and many other customers about purchase trend and purchase history. If you consider a small business selling on an independent platform, they may have an e-commerce web store that they're paying $9.99 a month for it, enables the selling of products that's not connected to the retail store. That's not connected to the Amazon platform sale. You may actually buy from each of those, but the typical retailer is not going to have that knowledge that is you that's across all of those platforms. So by bringing the elements of big data together, we're able to tie together who you bought from, where you bought, what are your personal buying trends? What do you like doing? So we can help deliver some intelligence back to that small retailer to re-target to you. And it may well be that you only ever buy off your mobile device, you only ever buy off your phone. So let's make sure that the way we target you with a marketing campaign hits your phone and it hits it at the right time in the right format so that we can really try and drive your business back to us as a small retailer. This is capabilities that really only larger enterprises have had the ability to invest in and to be able to leverage for the last, you know, certainly 10 years. >> So let's talk about the role that the ecosystem is going to play in SAP anywhere. We've heard a lot here at SAP Sapphire about the increasing value of the SAP ecosystem, both SAP, but also to customers. But we've also started hearing about how that ecosystem is valued to other partners, and certainly the S and E universe. Do you anticipate, for example, that a small medium enterprise that has a customer base is going to be able to use SAP anywhere, not only to engage their customers but also to engage adjacent businesses? So perhaps they can, in a location, start to weave together new concepts of services that might have been limited to, before, just the inventory that I had in the store? >> Yes, and I think we'll see it on two levels. We're building out an ecosystem of both larger more strategic partners, the likes we've already talked about. The Googles, the UPSs, the Paypals, etc. We can actually enable our customers and our partners, our solution provider partners to have access to those resources. What we're also looking to do is to build out an ecosystem of solution providers plus sort of more vertical specific partners where they can provide functionality and services within our platform. So we may have a sub-vertical, we may have some functionality that SAP anywhere doesn't necessarily deliver out of the box, but the tool kit that we provide as an application enables you as a partner to build out that sub-vertical capability and deliver it on the platform. Now, what that might do is it might mean that you can then extend that reach into those more location based partnerships, for example, where you are then bringing in additional partners, additional teams, additional services and you could leverage SAP anywhere to help control and mange all of that. As well as be an outlet for your products and also as a solution for you to sell your products on. >> So, last question here and let's talk a bit about the role that strategy is playing as you put this together. So, you're a strategist, you have to engage an enormous number of people, both at SAP, but also within this ecosystem. How are you getting and building that consensus to try to drive everybody in a common direction? >> So, it's a lot of hard work. We take a lot of data feeds, a lot of information, and we try and build a picture of what the market is doing now and also what the trends are moving towards. I'll give you an example. Recently I've been looking at our digital marketing capabilities and where should we be in 18 months, two years time? We've spent a lot of time working with Facebook on how their platform's being leveraged and how they're seeing the trend move. 90% of revenue for small businesses that comes through their advertising comes off a mobile device. So should we focus our resources on providing that mobile capability? On the iPhone, for example. Or do we look at the web-based technology as well? So it's pooling all of this data together, pulling all of the trend analysis together, and actually building a picture of where we're going. So really it's leveraging big data for ourselves to work out where we should be going and actually where we hope to drive our customers. Because, again, the SMB don't necessarily have access to these resources themselves, so it's the likes of us who can pull this data together and really drive the market for the SMB so they can move up in the marketplace and achieve that next level where they may move on to some of the products in the rest of the SAP portfolio. >> Excellent. Toby, SAP anywhere, thank you very much. Great announcement this week, congratulations, and there's a lot of small businesses out there that would love to see main street get resurrected. Precisely because of the new capabilities that you're able to bring to retailers and small businesses everywhere. Once again, Peter Burris, TheCube, SAP Sapphire. A lot more coming, stay with us.

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante, here in our Boston studio. We're connecting today with Palo Alto, with John Furrier and Lisa Martin. We're also live from the show floor in Seattle. But right now, I'm here with Andy Thurai who's from Constellation Research, friend of theCUBE, and we're going to discuss the intersection of AI and security, the potential of AI, the risks and the future. Andy, welcome, good to see you again. >> Good to be here again. >> Hey, so let's get into it, can you talk a little bit about, I know this is a passion of yours, the ethical considerations surrounding AI. I mean, it's front and center in the news, and you've got accountability, privacy, security, biases. Should we be worried about AI from a security perspective? >> Absolutely, man, you should be worried. See the problem is, people don't realize this, right? I mean, the ChatGPT being a new shiny object, it's all the craze that's about. But the problem is, most of the content that's produced either by ChatGPT or even by others, it's an access, no warranties, no accountability, no whatsoever. Particularly, if it is content, it's okay. But if it is something like a code that you use for example, one of their site projects that GitHub's co-pilot, which is actually, open AI + Microsoft + GitHub's combo, they allow you to produce code, AI writes code basically, right? But when you write code, problem with that is, it's not exactly stolen, but the models are created by using the GitHub code. Actually, they're getting sued for that, saying that, "You can't use our code". Actually there's a guy, Tim Davidson, I think he's named the professor, he actually demonstrated how AI produces exact copy of the code that he has written. So right now, it's a lot of security, accountability, privacy issues. Use it either to train or to learn. But in my view, it's not ready for enterprise grade yet. >> So, Brian Behlendorf today in his keynotes said he's really worried about ChatGPT being used to automate spearfishing. So I'm like, okay, so let's unpack that a little bit. Is the concern there that it just, the ChatGPT writes such compelling phishing content, it's going to increase the probability of somebody clicking on it, or are there other dimensions? >> It could, it's not necessarily just ChatGPT for that matter, right? AI can, actually, the hackers are using it to an extent already, can use to individualize content. For example, one of the things that you are able to easily identify when you're looking at the emails that are coming in, the phishing attack is, you look at some of the key elements in it, whether it's a human or even if it's an automated AI based system. They look at certain things and they say, "Okay, this is phishing". But if you were to read an email that looks exact copy of what I would've sent to you saying that, "Hey Dave, are you on for tomorrow? Or click on this link to do whatever. It could individualize the message. That's where the volume at scale to individual to masses, that can be done using AI, which is what scares me. >> Is there a flip side to AI? How is it being utilized to help cybersecurity? And maybe you could talk about some of the more successful examples of AI in security. Like, are there use cases or are there companies out there, Andy, that you find, I know you're close to a lot of firms that are leading in this area. You and I have talked about CrowdStrike, I know Palo Alto Network, so is there a positive side to this story? >> Yeah, I mean, absolutely right. Those are some of the good companies you mentioned, CrowdStrike, Palo Alto, Darktrace is another one that I closely follow, which is a good company as well, that they're using AI for security purposes. So, here's the thing, right, when people say, when they're using malware detection systems, most of the malware detection systems that are in today's security and malware systems, use some sort of a signature and pattern scanning in the malware. You know how many identified malwares are there today in the repository, in the library? More than a billion, a billion. So, if you are to check for every malware in your repository, that's not going to work. The pattern based recognition is not going to work. So, you got to figure out a different way of identification of pattern of usage, not just a signature in a malware, right? Or there are other areas you could use, things like the usage patterns. For example, if Andy is coming in to work at a certain time, you could combine a facial recognition saying, that should he be in here at that time, and should he be doing things, what he is supposed to be doing. There are a lot of things you could do using that, right? And the AIOps use cases, which is one of my favorite areas that I work, do a lot of work, right? That it has use cases for detecting things that are anomaly, that are not supposed to be done in a way that's supposed to be, reducing the noise so it can escalate only the things what you're supposed to. So, AIOps is a great use case to use in security areas which they're not using it to an extent yet. Incident management is another area. >> So, in your malware example, you're saying, okay, known malware, pretty much anybody can deal with that now. That's sort of yesterday's problem. >> The unknown is the problem. >> It's the unknown malware really trying to understand the patterns, and the patterns are going to change. It's not like you're saying a common signature 'cause they're going to use AI to change things up at scale. >> So, here's the problem, right? The malware writers are also using AI now, right? So, they're not going to write the old malware, send it to you. They are actually creating malware on the fly. It is possible entirely in today's world that they can create a malware, drop in your systems and it'll it look for the, let me get that name right. It's called, what are we using here? It's called the TTPs, Tactics, Techniques and procedures. It'll look for that to figure out, okay, am I doing the right pattern? And then malware can sense it saying that, okay, that's the one they're detecting. I'm going to change it on the fly. So, AI can code itself on the fly, rather malware can code itself on the fly, which is going to be hard to detect. >> Well, and when you talk about TTP, when you talk to folks like Kevin Mandia of Mandiant, recently purchased by Google or other of those, the ones that have the big observation space, they'll talk about the most malicious hacks that they see, involve lateral movement. So, that's obviously something that people are looking for, AI's looking for that. And of course, the hackers are going to try to mask that lateral movement, living off the land and other things. How do you see AI impacting the future of cyber? We talked about the risks and the good. One of the things that Brian Behlendorf also mentioned is that, he pointed out that in the early days of the internet, the protocols had an inherent element of trust involved. So, things like SMTP, they didn't have security built in. So, they built up a lot of technical debt. Do you see AI being able to help with that? What steps do you see being taken to ensure that AI based systems are secure? >> So, the major difference between the older systems and the newer systems is the older systems, sadly even today, a lot of them are rules-based. If it's a rules-based systems, you are dead in the water and not able, right? So, the AI-based systems can somewhat learn from the patterns as I was talking about, for example... >> When you say rules-based systems, you mean here's the policy, here's the rule, if it's not followed but then you're saying, AI will blow that away, >> AI will blow that away, you don't have to necessarily codify things saying that, okay, if this, then do this. You don't have to necessarily do that. AI can somewhat to an extent self-learn saying that, okay, if that doesn't happen, if this is not a pattern that I know which is supposed to happen, who should I escalate this to? Who does this system belong to? And the other thing, the AIOps use case we talked about, right, the anomalies. When an anomaly happens, then the system can closely look at, saying that, okay, this is not normal behavior or usage. Is that because system's being overused or is it because somebody's trying to access something, could look at the anomaly detection, anomaly prevention or even prediction to an extent. And that's where AI could be very useful. >> So, how about the developer angle? 'Cause CNCF, the event in Seattle is all around developers, how can AI be integrated? We did a lot of talk at the conference about shift-left, we talked about shift-left and protect right. Meaning, protect the run time. So, both are important, so what steps should be taken to ensure that the AI systems are being developed in a secure and ethically sound way? What's the role of developers in that regard? >> How long do you got? (Both laughing) I think it could go for base on that. So, here's the problem, right? Lot of these companies are trying to see, I mean, you might have seen that in the news that Buzzfeed is trying to hire all of the writers to create the thing that ChatGPT is creating, a lot of enterprises... >> How, they're going to fire their writers? >> Yeah, they replace the writers. >> It's like automated automated vehicles and automated Uber drivers. >> So, the problem is a lot of enterprises still haven't done that, at least the ones I'm speaking to, are thinking about saying, "Hey, you know what, can I replace my developers because they are so expensive? Can I replace them with AI generated code?" There are a few issues with that. One, AI generated code is based on some sort of a snippet of a code that has been already available. So, you get into copyright issues, that's issue number one, right? Issue number two, if AI creates code and if something were to go wrong, who's responsible for that? There's no accountability right now. Or you as a company that's creating a system that's responsible, or is it ChatGPT, Microsoft is responsible. >> Or is the developer? >> Or the developer. >> The individual developer might be. So, they're going to be cautious about that liability. >> Well, so one of the areas where I'm seeing a lot of enterprises using this is they are using it to teach developers to learn things. You know what, if you're to code, this is a good way to code. That area, it's okay because you are just teaching them. But if you are to put an actual production code, this is what I advise companies, look, if somebody's using even to create a code, whether with or without your permission, make sure that once the code is committed, you validate that the 100%, whether it's a code or a model, or even make sure that the data what you're feeding in it is completely out of bias or no bias, right? Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who, what, when did that, if you put out a service or a system out there, it is involving your company liability and system, and code in place. You're going to be screwed regardless of what, if something were to go wrong, you are the first person who's liable for it. >> Andy, when you think about the dangers of AI, and what keeps you up at night if you're a security professional AI and security professional. We talked about ChatGPT doing things, we don't even, the hackers are going to get creative. But what worries you the most when you think about this topic? >> A lot, a lot, right? Let's start off with an example, actually, I don't know if you had a chance to see that or not. The hackers used a bank of Hong Kong, used a defect mechanism to fool Bank of Hong Kong to transfer $35 million to a fake account, the money is gone, right? And the problem that is, what they did was, they interacted with a manager and they learned this executive who can control a big account and cloned his voice, and clone his patterns on how he calls and what he talks and the whole name he has, after learning that, they call the branch manager or bank manager and say, "Hey, you know what, hey, move this much money to whatever." So, that's one way of kind of phishing, kind of deep fake that can come. So, that's just one example. Imagine whether business is conducted by just using voice or phone calls itself. That's an area of concern if you were to do that. And imagine this became an uproar a few years back when deepfakes put out the video of Tom Cruise and others we talked about in the past, right? And Tom Cruise looked at the video, he said that he couldn't distinguish that he didn't do it. It is so close, that close, right? And they are doing things like they're using gems... >> Awesome Instagram account by the way, the guy's hilarious, right? >> So, they they're using a lot of this fake videos and fake stuff. As long as it's only for entertainment purposes, good. But imagine doing... >> That's right there but... >> But during the election season when people were to put out saying that, okay, this current president or ex-president, he said what? And the masses believe right now whatever they're seeing in TV, that's unfortunate thing. I mean, there's no fact checking involved, and you could change governments and elections using that, which is scary shit, right? >> When you think about 2016, that was when we really first saw, the weaponization of social, the heavy use of social and then 2020 was like, wow. >> To the next level. >> It was crazy. The polarization, 2024, would deepfakes... >> Could be the next level, yeah. >> I mean, it's just going to escalate. What about public policy? I want to pick your brain on this because I I've seen situations where the EU, for example, is going to restrict the ability to ship certain code if it's involved with critical infrastructure. So, let's say, example, you're running a nuclear facility and you've got the code that protects that facility, and it can be useful against some other malware that's outside of that country, but you're restricted from sending that for whatever reason, data sovereignty. Is public policy, is it aligned with the objectives in this new world? Or, I mean, normally they have to catch up. Is that going to be a problem in your view? >> It is because, when it comes to laws it's always miles behind when a new innovation happens. It's not just for AI, right? I mean, the same thing happened with IOT. Same thing happened with whatever else new emerging tech you have. The laws have to understand if there's an issue and they have to see a continued pattern of misuse of the technology, then they'll come up with that. Use in ways they are ahead of things. So, they put a lot of restrictions in place and about what AI can or cannot do, US is way behind on that, right? But California has done some things, for example, if you are talking to a chat bot, then you have to basically disclose that to the customer, saying that you're talking to a chat bot, not to a human. And that's just a very basic rule that they have in place. I mean, there are times that when a decision is made by the, problem is, AI is a black box now. The decision making is also a black box now, and we don't tell people. And the problem is if you tell people, you'll get sued immediately because every single time, we talked about that last time, there are cases involving AI making decisions, it gets thrown out the window all the time. If you can't substantiate that. So, the bottom line is that, yes, AI can assist and help you in making decisions but just use that as a assistant mechanism. A human has to be always in all the loop, right? >> Will AI help with, in your view, with supply chain, the software supply chain security or is it, it's always a balance, right? I mean, I feel like the attackers are more advanced in some ways, it's like they're on offense, let's say, right? So, when you're calling the plays, you know where you're going, the defense has to respond to it. So in that sense, the hackers have an advantage. So, what's the balance with software supply chain? Are the hackers have the advantage because they can use AI to accelerate their penetration of the software supply chain? Or will AI in your view be a good defensive mechanism? >> It could be but the problem is, the velocity and veracity of things can be done using AI, whether it's fishing, or malware, or other security and the vulnerability scanning the whole nine yards. It's scary because the hackers have a full advantage right now. And actually, I think ChatGPT recently put out two things. One is, it's able to direct the code if it is generated by ChatGPT. So basically, if you're trying to fake because a lot of schools were complaining about it, that's why they came up with the mechanism. So, if you're trying to create a fake, there's a mechanism for them to identify. But that's a step behind still, right? And the hackers are using things to their advantage. Actually ChatGPT made a rule, if you go there and read the terms and conditions, it's basically honor rule suggesting, you can't use this for certain purposes, to create a model where it creates a security threat, as that people are going to listen. So, if there's a way or mechanism to restrict hackers from using these technologies, that would be great. But I don't see that happening. So, know that these guys have an advantage, know that they're using AI, and you have to do things to be prepared. One thing I was mentioning about is, if somebody writes a code, if somebody commits a code right now, the problem is with the agile methodologies. If somebody writes a code, if they commit a code, you assume that's right and legit, you immediately push it out into production because need for speed is there, right? But if you continue to do that with the AI produced code, you're screwed. >> So, bottom line is, AI's going to speed us up in a security context or is it going to slow us down? >> Well, in the current version, the AI systems are flawed because even the ChatGPT, if you look at the the large language models, you look at the core piece of data that's available in the world as of today and then train them using that model, using the data, right? But people are forgetting that's based on today's data. The data changes on a second basis or on a minute basis. So, if I want to do something based on tomorrow or a day after, you have to retrain the models. So, the data already have a stale. So, that in itself is stale and the cost for retraining is going to be a problem too. So overall, AI is a good first step. Use that with a caution, is what I want to say. The system is flawed now, if you use it as is, you'll be screwed, it's dangerous. >> Andy, you got to go, thanks so much for coming in, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome, so we're going wall to wall with our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante in the Boston Studio, John Furrier, Lisa Martin and Palo Alto. We're going to be live on the show floor as well, bringing in keynote speakers and others on the ground. Keep it right there for more coverage on theCUBE. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here, covering Coupa Insp!re 2022. theCUBE is really happy to be here at this event. About 2,500 folks are here, which is great to see. I have two guests from Microsoft with me. Please, welcome Jonathan Allen, the director of global network modeling design and planning, and Cassie Wang, senior global network model and design engineer. Guys, thanks so much for joining me today. >> No problem. Thanks Lisa for having us. >> Thank you. >> So let's talk about what's going on at Microsoft, the Microsoft supply chain. Supply chain is a term that's on everyone's lips these days for some interesting reason, but talk to me a little bit about the Microsoft supply chain and how does it scale to meet the needs of business? >> Yeah, Lisa, it's really an interesting design at Microsoft. When you look at all the products we service, from Xbox consoles, controllers, Xbox games, Xbox Live cards, service devices for retail customers, for consumer customers and commercial customers. And then the way we go to market through distributors, retailers, and direct to consumer homes, we have to have a supply chain that actually executes across all the products and customer needs based on seasonality. When you think about our products, Xbox console heavy Christmas, heavy consumer, heavy retail commercial devices for service, heavy quarter ends, heavy periods of time back to school. So, we have to have a supply chain that effectively works across all of our products, all of our customers, and all the differences analogies that we have to manage. >> And do so globally? >> And do so globally. >> So talk to me about the transformation. That's a word that we talk a lot about digital transformation, right? >> Yes. >> Before COVID, now we've seen the acceleration of digital transformation during COVID, we've seen challenges with the supply chain. Talk to me about Microsoft supply chain journey from a digitalization perspective, what you guys have gone through. >> Yeah, absolutely. Data is the key. And I have a philosophy which is around managing a business by facts and figures. And so, when Cassie first came on about a year and a half ago, our focus was on digitizing our supply chain. So how do you take our physical supply chain, digitize it in a way that you have a digital mapping and a duplication of what's happening physically in a digital way across the supply chain. So about every single day, we're grabbing in about 500 gigabytes of data, that then allows us to understand the physical and the virtual world of our supply chain, to understand how it's moving, how it's executing and how it's delivering. As for example, we were able to, when the war began in Ukraine, to understand where our trains were, how they were moving, and if they were continuing to move versus stopping. On the second side, we're leveraging that data now to make decisions about where our supply chain is today, which is really focused in the changing environments that are real time occurring. That's driving opportunities, whether it's about reducing carbon, whether it's driving cost down or whether it's servicing the customers to make real time decisions, while at the same time planning for three to five years out based on our growth, our projections, and making sure we'll have the right infrastructure partner supply chain in place to service with those changes in growth. >> Basically you need a crystal ball? >> Basically. >> Essentially? >> Yes. >> And Cassie, it sounds like from what Jonathan just said, you joined the team during the pandemic? >> Yes. >> So, during a time of massive change? >> Fully remote, yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that and some of the opportunities that you saw in helping the supply chain modernization. >> Yeah, definitely. So when I joined Microsoft, it's great time. And it's all the risks and challenges and dynamic changing environment that's really involved. So we spent a long time, like from the time I joined Microsoft, we spent the time to set up this digital chain of our supply chain. So really to transform what is happening physically to how do we see it digitally. So just to bring the visibility of the supply chain. So the great thing is we are able to leverage the tool from Coupa, the digital transformation and also supply chain design optimization tool to help us really build the digital twin, and also the model for Microsoft device supply chain. >> Now, interesting comment. So when I met Casie, the first time I met her, was in person when I interviewed her. Second time I met her in person was here at Coupa, and I was afraid I wouldn't recognize her. (all laughing) >> Of course, challenges of last year. Talk to me about speaking of challenges, talk to me about some of the challenges that Microsoft saw and said, "We need a partner like Coupa to help us eliminate these challenges. We don't have time. Real time is no longer nice to have. We've got to be able to transform, so we have that visibility in real time." >> Absolutely. When you think about time, time and decisions, overnight, cities get locked down in China, cities get locked down in Europe. And if you wait days or wait hours, that could be the difference between product on a boat, product on a plane, or product not arriving to support your customer needs. >> Right. And then the question is knowing that with that real time, how are you making decisions real time to change, to alternate airports? Making changes on the products you're making to make sure that, I was making this but now I should make this, because I have a risk of getting product to show. >> And you've got to do all that with very limited amount of time. And of course, cause there's the consumer. I mean, we think about the Microsoft on the business side but the consumer side, you mentioned some of the consumer products you don't offend the Xbox, the service consumers. One of the things that was really in short supply during the pandemic and probably still is to some degree, is patience. >> Yes. >> The consumer experience is so critical for a brand. >> Correct. >> And as is the employee experience. >> Yes. >> Talk to me a little bit about, from a supply chain digitization perspective, what was some of the executive sponsorships? Who were some of those executive sponsors that were involved in going, "Yeah, we need to move in this direction with Coupa, and it's got to be now."? >> The real supporter behind that is, my manager, Jeff Davidson, and then his leader, which is Donna Wharton, where they are truly about what are we doing next? How are we going to leverage the tools and the capabilities that are provided by others that allow us to do our job? So let's be clear on, let's use those that are designed to do what they're supposed to do, and then build where we need to. And that was the big difference, the digitization of the data, create the data, create the information so that we could then leverage the tools to create the information, right? And that information is then about bringing the facts, the information and the data forward, to have very fact-based conversations, which is back to manage the business by facts and figures. >> Right. Well, Cassie, one of the things that we've also learned in the last couple years, is that every company is a data company. If they're not a data company they're probably not going to be around. I even think of my grocery store and all that data that they have on me to be able to surface up. What did I buy last time, and I want to buy that again? Talk to me a little bit about why was Coupa the right choice to help facilitate this data strategy so that the visibility and the supply chain and the ability to tweak things on demand is there? >> Yeah. So, the main stuff that we are leveraging from Coupa are the data group and also the supply chain group. So data group enable us to really, for the people who do not have a intensive data manipulation backgrounds, they can use data group very straightfowardly to work on the data so they can build, they can grab the data transactional level and aggregate to the leadership level to see data in different aspects, tell the trends to get the key information. So that's the power of getting the massive data on a level that's like everybody can say, "Oh, wow! This is what it means." And another is definitely leveraging the data to get into a model, which is what we just talked about, the digital twin of our physical supply chain. So, we are able to like make analysis based on very easy design, like sensitive analysis, what-if analysis, to test out what our future supply chain can be. And what is the cost benefits? What is all the impacts on the on the lead times? On the carbons? So, yeah. So that's the power of leveraging the data. >> Speaking of carbons, how is Microsoft working towards being carbon negative, zero waste? What's some of the things that are going on there from a corporate responsibility perspective? >> Yeah, that's a really important one. As known about two years ago, we came out with a pledge to be carbon neutral by 2030. >> 2030. >> And so, the company as a whole is doing massive initiatives from different groups, but specifically in supply chain, we're constantly focusing on cutting our carbon footprint, whether it's the way we're making the products and designing the products, whether it's the way that we're designing our warehouses. So for example, just recently, we launched a Carbon Neutral DC in Europe, which is all solar panel based. We're about to do that as well in one of our US operations. We're working on other things that allow us to think about alternative pallets that eliminate the weight of wood, to a much lighter pallet that has a huge carbon reduction when you think about shipping things via the air and the carbon impact there. So, everything that we work on is really around three things; service, cost and sustainability. And our biggest objective is really taking all three of those objectives and trying to bring them closer to each other so that the decisions aren't as large against each other when you make one versus the other. That's our objective. So, how do we continue to move that ball forward, challenge the paradigms of the old, that we're so accustomed to and really move forward to changing? >> How does Coupa help with that? >> Oh, I can't say that, yeah. >> Yeah, so one of the actual dimensions, Microsoft our goal is to achieve carbon neutral by 2030. So traditionally, the trade off might be between cost and service, right? >> Okay. And now, the carbon is the most important priority. So the trade off, the balance, are between cost, service, time and carbon. So one of the great thing that Coupa can help us is in the network modeling. There is actually objective for lowering the carbon emissions. So that can be the top priority that you wanted to solve through your network modeling like in parallel to cost, to service. So you can just like very straightforwardly put more weight into carbon when you're making your decisions, like that can be a higher penalty cost when you have more carbon emissions. It's like a very straightforward way to translate the carbon goal into some quantifiable goal into the modeling and data. >> Jonathan, I'm curious from a Microsoft strategic partnership perspective, how important is it from Microsoft to partner with companies that have that strong commitment to help facilitate being carbon neutral by 2030, having a strong ESG initiative? >> It's critical. Microsoft for the most part is an outsourced supply chain in which we measure partners across the network. We have our partners run our distribution and centers, we have outsource manufacturing, we have outsourced logistics. And it's important that we're working with them about what their plans are, because they're just simply an extension of the Microsoft supply chain. >> Right. >> Right. They're not not just companies we work with, they're companies we partner with, to think about how can we change the future? What are the alternatives that we can do? How do we think about alternative fuels? How do we think about alternative shipping ways? How do we think about creating density in the network? So one of the biggest things when you really think about optimization is really around creating deensity. How do I create more with less, and make sure I'm taking, for every dollar spent, for every shipment made, I maximize it to its fullest, and leave no waste behind it? That's the goal. And so, partners challenging us is probably the most important piece because they're on the front line. They actually see our shipments, they see our loads, they see the work we're doing and how it's translating to their environment. And it's important that they give us that hard feedback back that allows us know where we're not meeting the bar. >> Got it. Cassie, you guys are giving a presentation in about a couple of hours. Talk to me about some of the things that the audience, like if you had to summarize the top three takeaways that the audience is going to learn from the top, what would they be? >> I think the first is sustainability. So we want everybody to know that this is the key mission for Microsoft. That's one of the priorities for the next eight years for Microsoft to achieve. And the second is just how Coupa can help us achieve that goal. And how do we leverage the the applications, the tools, the cutting edge technologies for us to achieve a sweet balance between sustainability and technology supplychain? >> I think one of the greatest things about conferences like this, is that Coupa is great with that customer centricity, is it the opportunity to hear from the voice of the customer? What challenges you had? Why you chose Coupa? How you resolved them? And that crystal ball that you talked about in terms of where we're going from here. I think that there's so much value. I'm sure in what you're going to share today with the audience. Jonathan, last question for you, for other folks in any industry that are about to embark on, or are in the midst of a supply chain, digital transformation, what's your advice? What recommendations would you give? >> For me, it's really about two things. First and foremost is about creating data. Focus on data, not an answer, not a conversation. What is the information that you require? And then the second piece about that is then how do you make sure you stitch it together? And how you create, whether it's manufacturing data, whether it's purchase order data, whether it's sales order data, whether it's shipment data, whatever it is, making sure that you can stitch end-to-end together, because each individual decision by itself, may be right, but could be wrong, because ultimately, it's about the decision for the whole, not the decision for the one. And then making sure you focus on the cultural change, which is around, it's just not my area, it's just not my thing, it's about the end, it's about the planet, it's about Microsoft, it's about the customer, it's about the future, and making sure you're really really focused on making that change, right? Not my change. >> Right, and Rob Bernstein even alluded to that a little bit this morning in his keynote talking about one of the things that Coupa breaks is silos. >> Yes. >> Organizations that, cause to your point, something might be really good for sales or operations, but not good for marketing or logistics, for example, need to be able to have that visibility across, but also another thing that Coupa is famous for is collaboration. >> Correct. >> Being able to enable that collaboration across lines of business, across teams, across partners. >> Yep. And an important statement of that is, when you think about change, think of it like a stream, right? Streams, they create pathways with persistence. When you believe in something and you're truly behind it, just stay the path, right? There'll be a time and a place, cause sometimes the decisions just aren't now, but they will become. There's a lot of things that, for example, myself and Cassie are constantly working on, that might not be right now, but they will be right in the future. And it takes sometimes, just the right opportunity, the right situation, but the key is making ysure you understand those things so when those opportunities present themselves, you can just step in. >> Yep. Another thing we've learned, I think in the last two years, I'm losing count, is it's not a matter of if, but when. >> Correct. >> And you can apply that general statement to pretty much anything these days. >> Absolutely. >> Guys, thank you so much for joining me talking about Microsoft's transformation of the supply chain, the digital twin that you've created. Have a great time in your session. I'm sure folks are going to learn a lot from you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, my pleasure. For Jonathan Allen and Cassie Wang, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the the CUBE's coverage of Coupa Insp!re 2022 from Las Vegas. Stick around, be right back with my next guest. (upbeat msuic)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Cisco is a company at the crossroads. It's transitioning from a high margin hardware business to a software subscription-based model, which also should be high margin through both organic moves and targeted acquisitions. It's doing so in the context of massive macro shifts to digital in the cloud. We believe Cisco's dominant position in networking combined with a large market opportunity and a strong track record of earning customer trust, put the company in a good position to capitalize on cloud momentum. However, there are clear challenges ahead for Cisco, not the least of which is the growing complexity of its portfolio, a large legacy business, and the mandate to maintain its higher profitability profile as it transitions into a new business model. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we welcome in Zeus Kerravala, who's the founder and principal analyst at ZK Research, long time Cisco watcher who together with me crafted the premise of today's session. Zeus, great to see you welcome to the program. >> Thanks Dave. It's always a pleasure to be with you guys. >> Okay, here's what we're going to talk about today, set the agenda. The catalyst for this session, Zeus and I attended Cisco's financial analyst day. We received a day and a half of firehose presentations, drill downs, interactions, Q and A with Cisco execs and one key customer. So we're going to share our takeaways from these sessions and add our additional thoughts. Now, in particular, we're going to talk about Cisco's TAM, its transformation to a subscription-based model, and how we see that evolving. As always, we're going to bring in some ETR spending data for context and get Zeus' take on what that tells us. And we'll end with a summary of Cisco's cloud strategy and outlook for how it could win in the cloud. So let's talk about Cisco's sort of structure and TAM opportunities. First, Zeus, Cisco has four main lines of business where it's organized it's executives around sort of four product areas. And it's got a large service component as well. Network equipment, SP routing, data center, collaboration that security, and as I say services, that's not necessarily how it's going to market, but that's kind of the way it organizes its ELT, its executive leadership team. >> Yeah, the in fact, the ELT has been organized around those products, as you said. It used to report to the street three product segments, infrastructure platforms, which was by far the biggest, it was all their networking equipment, then applications, and then security. Now it's moved to five new segments, secure agile networks, hybrid work, end to end security, internet for the future and optimized app experiences. And I think what Cisco's trying to do is align their, the way they report along the lines of the way customers buy. 'Cause I think before, you know, they had a very simplistic model before. It was just infrastructure, apps, and security. The ELT is organized around product roadmap and the product innovation, but that's not necessarily the way customers purchase things and so, purchase things so I think they've tried to change things a little bit there. When you look at those segments though, you know, by, it's interesting. They're all big, right? So, by far the biggest distilled networking, which is almost a hundred billion dollar TAM as they reported and they have it growing a about a 9% CAGR as reported by other analyst firms. And when you think about how mature networking is Dave, the fact that that's still growing at high single digit CAGR is still pretty remarkable. So I think that's one of those things that, you know, watchers of Cisco historically have been calling for the network to be commoditized for decades. For as long as I've been watching Cisco, we've been, people have been waiting for the network to be commoditized. My thesis has always been, if you can drive enough innovation into things, you can stave off commoditization and that's what they've done. But that's really the anchor for them to sell all their other products, some of which are higher margin, some which are a little bit sore, but they're all good high margin businesses to your point. >> Awesome. We're going to dig into that. So, so they flattened the organization when Geckler left. You've got Todd Nightingale, Jonathan Davidson, Liz Centoni, and Jeetu Patel who we heard from and we'll make some comments on what we heard from them. One of the big takeaways at the financial analysts meeting was on the TAM, as you just mentioned. Liz Centoni who also is heavily involved in strategy and the CFO Scott Herren, showed this slide, which speaks to the company's TAM and the organizational structure that you were just talking about. So the big message was that Cisco has got a large and growing market, you know, no shortage of available market. Somewhere between eight and 900 billion, depending on which of the slides you pull out of the deck. And ironically Zeus, when you look at the current markets number here on the right hand side of this slide, 260 billion, it just about matches the company's market cap. Maybe an interesting coincidence, but at any rate, what was your takeaway from this data? >> Well, I think, you know, the big takeaway from the data is there's still a lot of room ahead for Cisco to grow, right? Again, this is a, it's a company that I think most people would put in the camp of legacy IT vendor, just because of how long they've been around. But they have done a very good job of staving off innovation. And part of that is just these markets that they play in continue to grow and they continue to have challenges that they can solve. I think one of the things Cisco has done though, since the arrival of Chuck Robbins, is they don't fight these trends anymore, Dave. I know prior to Chuck's arrival, they really fought the tide of software defined networking and you know, trends like that, and even cloud to some extent. And I remember one of the first meetings I had with Chuck, I asked him about that and he said that Cisco will never do that again. That under his watch, if customers are going through a market transition, Cisco wants to lead them through it, not try and hold them back. And I think for that reason, they're able to look at, all of those trends and try and take a leadership position in them, even though you might look at some of those and feel that some of them might be detrimental to Cisco's business in the short term. So something like software defined WANs, which you would throw into secure agile networks, certainly doesn't, may not carry the same kind of RPOs and margins with it that their traditional routers did, but ultimately customers are going to buy it and Cisco would like to be the ones to sell it to them. >> You know, you bring up a great point. This industry is littered, there's a graveyard of executives who fought the trend. Many people, some people remember Ken Olson of Digital Equipment Corporation. "Unix is snake oil," is what he said. IBM mainframe guys said, "PCs are a toy." And of course the history, they were the wrong side of history. The other big takeaway was the shift to software in subscription. They really made a big point of this. Here's a chart Cisco showed a couple of times to make the point that it's one of the largest software companies in the world. You know, in the top 10. They also made the point that Chuck Robbins, when he joined in 2015, and since that time, it's nearly 4x'ed it's subscription software revenue, and roughly doubled its software sales. And it now has an RPO, remaining performance obligations, that exceeds 30 billion. And it's committing to grow its subscription business in the forward-looking statements by 15 to 17% CAGR through 25, which would imply about a doubling of these, the blue lines. Zeus, it's unclear if that forward-looking forecast is just software. I presume it includes some services, but as Herren pointed out, over time, these services will be bundled into the product revenue, same way SAS companies do it. But the point is Cisco is committed, like many of their peers, to moving to an ARR model. But please, share your thoughts on Cisco's move to software subscriptions and how you see the future of consumption-based pricing. >> Yeah, this has been a big shift for Cisco, obviously. It's one that's highly disruptive. It's one that I know gave their partners a lot of angst for a long time because when you sell things upfront, you get a big check for selling that, right? And when you sell things in a subscription model, you get a much smaller check for a number of months over the period of the contract. It also changes the way you deal with the customer. When you sell a one-time product, you basically wipe your hands. You come back in three or four years and say, "it's time to upgrade." When you sell a subscription, now, the one thing that I've tried to talk to Cisco and its partners about is customers don't renew things they don't use. And so it becomes incumbent on the partner, it becomes incumbent upon Cisco to make sure that things that the customer is subscribing to, that they do use. And so Cisco's had to create a customer success organization. They've had to help their partners create those customer success organizations. So it's really changed the model. And Cisco not only made the shift, they've done it faster than they actually had originally forecast. So during the financial analyst day, they actually touted their execution on software, noting that it hit it's 30% revenue as percent of total target well before it was supposed to, it's actually exceeded its targets. And now it's looking to increase that to, it actually raised its guidance in this area a little bit by a few percentage points, looking out over the next few years. And so it's moved to the subscription model, Dave, the thing that you brought up, which I do see as somewhat of a challenge is the shift to consumption-based pricing. So subscription is one thing in that I write you a check every month for the same amount. When I go to the consumption-based pricing, that's easy to do for cloud services, things like WebEx or Duo or, you know, CloudLock, some of the security products. That that shift should be relatively simple. If customers want to buy it that way. It's unclear as to how you do that when you're selling on-prem equipment with the software add-on to it because in that case, you have to put metering technology in to understand how much they're using. You have to have a minimum baseline to start with. They've done it in some respects. The old HCS product that they sold, the Telcos, actually was sold with a minimum commit and then they tacked on a utilization on top of that. So maybe they move into that kind of model. But I know it's something that they've, they get asked about a lot. I know they're still thinking about it, but it's something that I believe is coming and it's going to come pretty fast. >> I want to pick up on that because I think, you know, they made the point that we're one of the top 10 software companies in the world. It's very difficult for hardware companies to make the transition to software. You know, HP couldn't do it. >> Well, no one's done it. >> Well, IBM has kind of done it, but they really struggle. It's kind of this mishmash of tooling and software products that aren't really well-integrated. But, I would say this, everybody now, Cisco, Dell, HPE with GreenLake, Lenovo, pretty much all the traditional hardware players are trying to move to an as a service model or at least for a portion of their business. HPE's all in, Dell transitioning. And for the most part, I would make the following observation. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this. They're pretty much following a SAS like model, which in my view is outdated and kind of flawed from a customer standpoint. All these guys say, "Hey, we're doing this because "this is what the customers want." I think the cloud is really a true consumption based model. And if you look at modern SAS companies, a lot of the startups, they're moving to a consumption based model. You see that with Snowflake, you see that with Stripe. Now they will offer incentives. But most of the traditional enterprise players, they're saying, "Okay, pay us upfront, "commit to some base level. "If you go over it, you know, "we'll charge you for it. "If you go under it, you're still going to pay "for that base level." So it's not true consumption base. It's not really necessarily the customer's best interest. So that's, I think there's some learnings there that are going to have to play out. >> Yeah, the reason customers are shying away from that SAS type model, I think during the pandemic, the one thing we learned, Dave, is that the business will ebb and flow greatly from month to month sometimes. And I was talking with somebody that worked for one of the big hotel chains, and she was telling me that what their CRM providers, she wouldn't tell me who it was, except said it rhymed with Shmalesforce, that their utilization of it went from, you know, from a nice steady level to spiking really high when customers started calling in to cancel hotel rooms. And then it dropped down to almost nothing as we went through that period of stay at home. And now it's risen back up. And so for her, she wanted to move to a consumption-based model because what happens otherwise is you wind up buying for peak utilization, your software subscriptions go largely underutilized the majority of the year, and you wind up paying, you know, a lot more than you need to. If you go to more of a true consumption model, it's harder to model out from a financial perspective 'cause there's a lot of ebbs and flows in the business, but over a longer period of time, it's more cost-effective, right? And so the, again, what the pandemic taught us was we don't really know what we're going to need from a consumption standpoint, you know, nevermind a year from now, maybe even six months from now. And consumption just creates a lot more flexibility and agility. You can scale up, you can scale down. You can bring in users, you can take out users, you can add consultants, things like that. And it just, it's much more aligned with the way businesses are run today. >> Yeah, churn is a silent killer of a software company. And so there's retention is the key here. So again, I think there's lots of learning. Let's put Cisco into context with some of its peers. So this chart we developed compares five companies to Cisco. Core Dell, meaning Dell, without VMware. VMware, HPE, IBM, we've put an AWS, and then Cisco as, IBM, AWS and Cisco is the integrated plays. So the chart shows the latest quarterly revenue multiplied by four to get a run rate, a three-year growth outlook, gross margin percentage, market cap, and revenue multiple. And the key points here are that one, Cisco has got a pretty awesome business model. It's got 60% gross margin, strong operating margins, not shown here, but in the mid twenties, 25%. It's got a higher growth rate than most of its peers. And as such, a much better, multiple than say, for instance, Core Dell gets 33 cents on the revenue dollar. HPE is double that. IBM's below two X. Cisco's revenue multiple rivals VMware, which is a pure software company. Now in a large part that's because VMware stock took a hit recently, but still the point is obvious. Cisco's got a great business. Now for context, we've added AWS, which blows away any company on this chart. We've inferred a market cap of nearly 600 billion, which frankly is conservative at a 10 X revenue multiple given it's inferred margins and growth rate. Now Zeus, if AWS were a separate company, it could have a market cap that approached 800 billion in my view. But what does this data tell you? >> Well, it just tells me that Cisco continues to be a very well-run company that has staved off commoditization, despite the calling for it for years. And I think the big lesson, and I've talked to financial analysts about this over the years, is that if, I don't really believe anything in this world is a commodity, Dave. I think even when Cisco went to the server market, if you remember back then, they created a new way of handling memory management. They were getting well above average margins for service, albeit less than Cisco's network margins, but still above average for server margins. And so I think if you can continue to innovate, you will see the margin stay where they are. You will see customers continue to buy and refresh. And I think one of the challenges Cisco's had in the past, and this is where the subscription business will help, is getting customers to stay with the latest and greatest. Prior to this refresh of network equipment, some of the stuff that I've seen in the fields, 10, 15 years old, once you move to that sell me a box and then tack on the subscription revenue that you pay month by month, you do drive more consistent refresh. Think about the way you just handle your own mobile phone. If you had to go pay, you know, a thousand dollars every three years, you might not do it at that three-year cycle. If you pay 40 bucks a month, every time there's a new phone, you're going to take it, right? So I think Cisco is able to drive greater, better refresh, keep their customers current, keep the features in there. And we've seen that with a lot of the new products. The new Cat 9,000, some of the new service provider products, the new wifi products, they've all done very well. In fact, they've all outpaced their previous generation products as far as growth rate goes. And so I think that is a testament to the way they've run the business. But I do think when people bucket Cisco in with HP and Dell, and I understand why they do, their businesses were similar at one time, it's really not a true comparison anymore. I think Cisco has completely changed their business and they're not trying to commoditize markets, they're trying to drive innovation and keep the margins up, where I think HP and Dell tend to really compete on price versus innovation. >> Well, and we are going to get to this point about the tailwinds and headwinds and cloud, and how Cisco to do it. But, to your point about, you know, the cell phone analogy. To the extent that Cisco can make that seamless for customers could hide that underlying complexity, that's going to be critical for the cloud. Now, but before we get there, I want to talk about one of the reasons why Cisco such a high multiple, and has been able to preserve its margins, to your point, not being commoditized. And it's been able to grow both organically, but also has a strong history of M and A. It's this chart shows a dominant position in core networking. So this shows, so ETR data within the Fortune 500. It plots companies in the ETR taxonomy in two dimensions, net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending velocity, and market share on the horizontal axis, which is a measure of presence in the survey. It's not like IDC market share, it's mentioned market share if you will. The point is Cisco is far and away the most pervasive player in the market, it's generally held its dominant position. Although, it's been under pressure in the last few years in core networking, but it retains or maintains a very respectable net score and consistently performs well for such a large company. Zeus, anything you'd add with respect to Cisco's core networking business? >> Yeah, it's maintained a dominant network position historically. I think part of because it drives good products, but also because the competitive landscape, historically has been pretty weak, right? We saw companies like 3Com and Nortel who aren't around anymore. It'll be interesting to see moving forward now that companies like VMware are involved in networking. AWS is interested in networking. Arista is a much stronger company. You know, Juniper bought Mist and is in better position. Even Extreme Networks who most people thought was dead a few years ago has made a number of acquisitions and is now a billion dollar company. So while Cisco has done a great job of execution, they've done a great job on the innovation side, their competitive landscape, looking out over the next five years, I think is going to be more difficult than it has been over the previous five years. And largely, Dave, I think that's good for Cisco. I think whenever Cisco's pressed a little bit from competition, they tend to step on the innovation gas a little bit more. And I look back and even just the transition when VMware bought Nicira, that got Cisco's SDN business into gear, like nothing else could have, right? So competition for that company, they always seem to respond well to it. >> So, let's break down Cisco's net score a little bit. Explain why the company has been able to hold its spending momentum despite its large size. This will give you a little insight to the survey. So this chart shows the granular components of net score. The lime green is new adoptions to Cisco. The forest green is spending more than 6%. The gray is flat plus or minus 5%. The pink is spending drops by more than 5%. And the red is we're chucking the platform, we're getting off. And Cisco's overall net score here is 25%, which for a company of its size speaks to the relationships that it has with customers. It's of course got a fat middle in the gray area, like all sort of large established companies. But very low defections as well, it's got low new adoptions. But very respectable. So that is background, Zeus. Let's look at spending momentum over time across Cisco's portfolio. So this chart shows Cisco's net score by that methodology within the ETR taxonomy for Cisco over three survey periods. And what jumps out is Meraki on the left, very strong. Virtualization business, its core networking, analytics and security, all showing upward momentum. AppD is a little bit concerning, but that could be related to Cisco's sort of pivot to full stack observability. So maybe AppD is being bundled there. Although some practitioners have cited to us some concerns in that space. And then WebEx at the end of the chart, it's showing some relative strength, but not that high. Zeus, maybe you could comment on Meraki and any other takeaways across the portfolio. >> Yeah, Meraki has proven to be an excellent acquisition for Cisco. In fact, you might, I think it's arguable to say it's its best acquisition in history going all the way back to camp Kalpana and Grand Junction, the ones that brought up catalyst switches. So, in fact, I think Meraki's revenue might be larger than security now. So, that shows you the momentum it has. I think one of the lessons it brought to Cisco was that simpler is better, sometimes. I think when they first bought Meraki, the way Meraki's deployed, it's very easy to set up. There's a lot of engineering work though that goes into making a product simple to use. And I think a lot of Cisco engineers historically looked at Meraki as, that's a little bit of a toy. It's meant for small businesses, things like that, but it's not for enterprise. But, Rocky's done a nice job of expanding the portfolio, of leveraging the cloud for analytics and showing you a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily get from traditional networking equipment. And one of the things that I was really delighted to see was when they put Todd Nightingale in charge of all the networking business, because that showed to me that Chuck Robbins understood that the things Meraki were doing were right and they infuse a little bit of Meraki into the rest of the company. You know, that's certainly a good thing. The other areas that you showed on the chart, not really a surprise, Dave. When you think of the shift hybrid work and you think of the, some of the other transitions going on, I think you would expect to see the server business in decline, the storage business, you know, maybe in a little bit of decline, just because people aren't building out data centers. Where the other ones are related more to hybrid working, hybrid cloud, things like that. So it is what you would expect. The WebEx one was interesting too, because it did show somewhat of a dip and then a rise. And I think that's indicative of what we've seen in the collaboration space since the pandemic came about. Companies like Zoom and RingCentral really got a lot of the headlines. Again, when you, the comment I made on competition, Cisco got caught a little bit flat-footed, they've caught up in features and now they really stepped on the gas there. Chuck joked that he gave the WebEx team a bit of a blank check to go do what it had to do. And I don't think that was a joke. I think he actually did that because they've added more features into WebEx in the last year then I think they did the previous five years before that. >> Well, let's just drill into video conferencing real quick here, if we could. Here's that two dimensional view, again, showing net score against market share or pervasiveness of mentions, and you can see Microsoft Teams in the upper right. I mean, it's off the chart, literally. Zoom's well ahead of Cisco in terms of, you know, mentions presence. And that could be a spate of freemium, you know, but it's basically a three horse race in this game. And Cisco, I don't think is trying to take Zoom head on, rather it seems to be making WebEx a core part of its broader collaboration agenda. But Zeus, maybe you could comment. >> Well, it's all coming together, right? So, it's hard to decouple calling from video from meetings. All of the vendors, including Teams, are going after the hybrid work experience. And if you believe the future is hybrid and not just work from home, then Cisco does have a pretty interesting advantage because it's the only one that makes its own end points, where Teams and Zoom doesn't. And so that end to end experience it can deliver. The Microsoft Teams one's interesting because that product, frankly, when you talk to users, it doesn't have a great user score, like as far as user satisfaction goes, but the one thing Microsoft has done a very good job of is bundling it in to the Office365 licenses, making it very easy for IT to deploy. Zoom is a little bit in the middle where they've appealed to the users. They've done a better job of appealing to IT, but there is a, there is a battleground now going on where video's not just video. It includes calling, includes meetings, includes room systems now, and I think this hybrid work friend is going to change the way we think about these meeting tools. >> Now we'd be remiss if we didn't spend a moment talking about security as a key part of Cisco's business. And we have a graphic on this same kind of X, Y. And it's been, we've seen several quarters of growth. Although, the last quarter security growth was in the low single digits, but Cisco is a major player in security. And this X, Y graph shows, they've got both a large presence and a solid spending momentum. Not nearly as much momentum as Okta or Zscaler or a CrowdStrike and some of the smaller companies, but they're, these guys are on a rocket ship, but others that we featured in these episodes, but much more than respectable for Cisco. And security is critical to the strategy. It's a big part of the subscriber base. And the last thing, Zeus, I'll say about Cisco made the point in analyst day, that this market is crowded. You can see that in this chart. And their goal is to simplify this picture and make it easier for customers to secure their data and apps. But that's not easy, Zeus. What are your thoughts on Cisco's security opportunities? >> Yeah, I've been waiting for Cisco go to break up in security a little more than it has. I do think, I was talking with a CSO the other day, Dave, that said to me he's starting to understand that you don't have to have best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, there's a lot of buyers now will tell you that if you try and have best of breed everywhere, it actually creates a negative when it comes to threat protection because keeping all the policies and things up to date is very, very difficult. And so the industry is moving more to a platform model, right? Now, the challenge for Cisco is how do you get that, the customer to think of the network as part of the platform? Because while the platform model, I think, is starting to gain traction, FloridaNet, Palo Alto, even McAfee, companies like that also have their own version of a security platform. And if you look at the financial performance of companies like FloridaNet and Palo Alto over the past, you know, over the past couple of years, they've been through the roof, right? And so I think an interesting and unique challenge for Cisco is can they convince the security buyer that the network is as important a part of that platform as any other component? If they can do that, I think they can break away from the pack. If not, then they'll stay mixed in with those, you know, Palo, FloridaNet, Checkpoint, and, you know, and Cisco, in that mix. But I do think that may present their single biggest needle moving opportunity just because of how big the security TAM is, and the fact that there is no de facto leader in security today. If they could gain the same kind of position in security as they have a networking, who, I mean, that would move the needle like no other market would. >> Yeah, it's really interesting that they're coming at security, obviously from a position of networking strength. You've got, to your point, you've got best of breed, Okta in identity, you got CrowdStrike in endpoint, Zscaler in cloud security. They're all growing like crazy. And you got Cisco and you know, Palo Alto, CSOs tell us they want to work with Palo Alto because they're the thought leader and they're obviously a major player here. You mentioned FloridaNet, there's a zillion others. We could talk all day about security. But let's bring it back to cloud. We've talked about a number of the piece in Cisco's portfolio, and we haven't really spent any time on full stack observability, which is a big push for Cisco with AppD, Intersight and the ThousandEyes acquisition. And that plays into this equation. But my take, Zeus, is Cisco has a number of cloud knobs that it can turn, it sells core networking equipment to hyperscalers. It can be the abstraction layer to connect on-prem to the cloud and hybrid and across clouds. And it's in a good position with Telcos too, to go after the 5G. But let's use this chart to talk about Cisco's cloud prospects. It's an ETR cut of the cloud customer spending. So we cut it by cloud customers. And they're are, I don't know, 800 or so in the survey. And then looking at various companies performance within that cut. So these are companies that compete, or in the case of HashiCorp, partner with Cisco at some level. Let me just set this up and get your take. So the insert on the chart by the way shows the raw data that positions each dot, the net score and the shared n, i.e. the number of accounts in the survey that responded. The key points, first of all, Azure and AWS, dominant players in cloud. GCP is a distant third. We've reported on that a lot. Not only are these two companies big, they have spending momentum on their platforms. They're growing, they are on that flywheel. Second point, VMware and Cisco are very prominent. They have huge customer bases. And while they're often on a collision course, there's lots of room in cloud for multiple players. When we plotted some other Cisco properties like AppD and Meraki, which as we said, is strong. And then for context, we've placed Dell, HPE, Aruba, IBM and Oracle. And also VMware cloud and AWS, which is notable on its elevation. And as I say, we've added HashiCorp because they're critical partner of Cisco and it's a multi-cloud play. Okay, Zeus, there's the setup. What does Cisco have to do to make the cloud a tailwind? Let's talk about strategy, tailwinds, headwinds, competition, and bottom line it for us. >> Yeah, well, I do think, well, I talked about security being the biggest needle mover for Cisco, I think its biggest challenge is convincing Wall Street in particular, that the cloud is a tailwind. I think if you look at the companies with the really high multiples to their stock, Dave, they're all ones where they're viewed as, they go along with the cloud ride, Right? So the, if you can associate yourself with the cloud and then people believe that the cloud is going to, more cloud equals more business, that obviously creates a better multiple because the cloud has almost infinite potential ahead of it. Now with respect to Cisco, I do think cloud has presented somewhat of a double-edged sword for Cisco. I don't believe the current consumption model for cloud is really a tailwind for Cisco, not really a headwind, but it doesn't really change Cisco's business. But I do think the very definition of cloud is changing before our eyes, Dave. And it's shifting away from centralized clouds. If you think of the way customers bought cloud before, it might have used AWS, it might've used Azure, but it really, that's not really multi-cloud, it's just multiple clouds in which I put things in these centralized resources. It's shifting more to this concept of distributed cloud in which a single application can be built using resources from your private cloud, for AWS, from Azure, from Edge locations, all the cloud providers have built their portfolios to support this concept of distributed cloud and what becomes important there, is a highly agile dynamic network. And in that case with distributed cloud, that is a tailwind for Cisco because now the network is that resource that ties all those distributed cloud components together. Now the network itself has to change. It needs to become a lot more agile and microservices and container friendly itself so I can spin up resources and, you know, in an Edge location, as fast as I can on-prem and things like that. But I do think it creates another wave of innovation and networking, and in that case, I think it does act as a tailwind for Cisco, aside from just the work it's done with the web scalers, you know, those types of companies. So, but I do think that Cisco needs to rethink its delivery model on network services somewhat to take advantage of that. >> At the analyst meeting, Cisco made the point that it does sell to the hyperscalers. It talked about the top six hyperscalers. You know, you had mentioned to me, maybe IBM and Oracle were in there. I always talk about four hyperscalers and only four, but that's fine. Here's my question. Practitioners have told me, buyers have told me, the more money and more workloads I put in the cloud, the less I spend with Cisco. Now, even though that might be Cisco gear powering those clouds, do you see that as a potential threat in that they don't own that relationship anymore and value will confer to the cloud players? >> Yeah, that's, I've heard that too. And I don't, I believe that's true when it comes to general purpose compute. You're probably not buying as many UCS servers and things like that because you are putting them in the cloud. But I do think you do need a refresh the network. I think the network becomes a very important role, plays a very important role there. The variant, the really interesting trend will be, what is your WAM look like? Do you have thousands of workers scattered all over the place, or do you just have a few centralized locations? So I think also, you know, Cisco will wind up providing connectivity within the cloud. If you think of the transition we've seen in other industries, Dave, as far as cloud goes, you think of, you know, F5, a company like that. People thought that AWS would commoditize F5's business because AWS provides their own load balancers, right? But what AWS provides is a very basic, very basic functionality and then use F5's virtual edition or a cloud edition for a lot of the advanced capabilities. And I think you'll see the same thing with the cloud that customers will start buying versions of Cisco that go in the cloud to drive a lot of those advanced capabilities that only Cisco delivers. And so I think you wind up buying more Cisco over time, although the per unit price of what you buy might be a little bit lower. If that makes sense here. >> It does, I think it makes a lot of sense and that fits into the cloud model. You know, you bring up a good point, the conversation with the customer was Rakuten. And that individual was essentially sharing with us, somebody was asking, one of the analysts was asking, "Well, what about the cloud guys? "Aren't they going to really threaten the whole Telco "industry and disrupt it?" And his point was, "Look at, this stuff is not trivial." So to your point, you know, maybe they'll provide some basic functionality. Kind of like they do in a lot of different areas. Data protection is another good example. Security is another good example. Where there's plenty of room for partners, competitors, of on-prem players to add value. And I've always said, "Look, the opportunity "is the cloud players spend 100 billion dollars a year "on CapEx." It's a gift to companies like Cisco who can build an abstraction layer that connects on-prem, cloud for hybrid, across clouds, out to the edge, and really be that layer that is that layer that takes advantage of cloud native, but also delivers that experience, I don't want to use the word seamlessly, but that experience across those clouds as the cloud expands. And that's fundamentally Cisco's cloud strategy, isn't it? >> Oh yeah. And I think people have underestimated over the years, how hard it is to build good networking products. Anybody can go get some silicon and build a product to connect two things together. The question is, can you do it at scale? Can you do it securely? And lots of companies have tried to commoditize networking, you know, White Boxes was looked at as the existential threat to Cisco. Huawei was looked at as the big threat to Cisco. And all of those have kind of come and gone because building high quality network equipment that scales is tough. And it's tougher than most people realize. And your other point on the cloud providers as well, they will provide a basic level of functionality. You know, AWS network equipment doesn't work in Azure. And Azure stuff doesn't work in Google, and Google doesn't work in AWS. And so you do need a third party to come in and act as almost the cloud middleware that can connect all those things together with a consistent set of policies. And that's what Cisco does really well. They did that, you know back when they were founded with routing protocols and you can think this is just an extension of what they're doing just up at the cloud layer. >> Excellent. Okay, Zeus, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to my guest today, Zeus Kerravala. Great analysis as always. Would love to have you back. Check out ZKresearch.com to reach him. Thank you again. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Now, remember I publish each week on Wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Braking Analysis" podcast, and you can connect on Twitter at DVallante or email me David.Vallante@siliconangle.com. Thanks for the comments on LinkedIn. Check out etr.plus for all the survey action. This is Dave Vallante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Be well and we'll see you next time. (light music)

>> Hello everyone. On today's panel, the theme is Drug Discovery and how Artificial Intelligence can make a difference. On the panel today, we are honored to have Dr. Ryan Yates, principal scientist at The National Center for Natural Products Research, with a focus on botanicals specifically the pharmacokinetics, which is essentially how the drug changes over time in our body and pharmacodynamics which is essentially how drugs affects our body. And of particular interest to him is the use of AI in preclinical screening models to identify chemical combinations that can target chronic inflammatory processes such as fatty liver disease, cognitive impairment and aging. Welcome, Ryan. Thank you for coming. >> Good morning. Thank you for having me. >> The other distinguished panelist is Dr. Rangan Sukumar, our very own, is a distinguished technologist at the CTO office for High Performance Computing and Artificial Intelligence with a PHD in AI and 70 publications that can be applied in drug discovery, autonomous vehicles and social network analysis. Hey Rangan, welcome. Thank you for coming, by sparing the time. We have also our distinguished Chris Davidson. He is leader of our HPC and AI Application and Performance Engineering team. His job is to tune and benchmark applications, particularly in the applications of weather, energy, financial services and life sciences. Yes so particular interest is life sciences he spent 10 years in biotech and medical diagnostics. Hi Chris, welcome. Thank you for coming. >> Nice to see you. >> Well let's start with your Chris, yes, you're regularly interfaced with pharmaceutical companies and worked also on the COVID-19 White House Consortium. You know tell us, let's kick this off and tell us a little bit about your engagement in the drug discovery process. >> Right and that's a good question I think really setting the framework for what we're talking about here is to understand what is the drug discovery process. And that can be kind of broken down into I would say four different areas, there's the research and development space, the preclinical studies space, clinical trial and regulatory review. And if you're lucky, hopefully approval. Traditionally this is a slow arduous process it costs a lot of money and there's a high amount of error. Right, however this process by its very nature is highly iterate and has just huge amounts of data, right it's very data intensive, right and it's these characteristics that make this process a great target for kind of new approaches in different ways of doing things. Right, so for the sake of discussion, right, go ahead. >> Oh yes, so you mentioned data intensive brings to mind Artificial Intelligence, you know, so Artificial Intelligence making the difference here in this process, is that so? >> Right, and some of those novel approaches are actually based on Artificial Intelligence whether it's deep learning and machine learning, et cetera, you know, prime example would say, let's just say for the sake of discussion, let's say there's a brand new virus, causes flu-like symptoms, shall not be named if we focus kind of on the R and D phase, right our goal is really to identify target for the treatment and then screen compounds against it see which, you know, which ones we take forward right to this end, technologies like cryo-electron, cryogenic electron microscopy, just a form of microscopy can provide us a near atomic biomolecular map of the samples that we're studying, right whether that's a virus, a microbe, the cell that it's attaching to and so on, right AI, for instance, has been used in the particle picking aspect of this process. When you take all these images, you know, there are only certain particles that we want to take and study, right whether they have good resolution or not whether it's in the field of the frame and image recognition is a huge part of this, it's massive amounts of data in AI can be very easily, you know, used to approach that. Right, so with docking, you can take the biomolecular maps that you achieved from cryo-electron microscopy and you can take those and input that into the docking application and then run multiple iterations to figure out which will give you the best fit. AI again, right, this is iterative process it's extremely data intensive, it's an easy way to just apply AI and get that best fit doing something in a very, you know, analog manner that would just take humans very long time to do or traditional computing a very long time to do. >> Oh, Ryan, Ryan, you work at the NCNPR, you know, very exciting, you know after all, you know, at some point in history just about all drugs were from natural products yeah, so it's great to have you here today. Please tell us a little bit about your work with the pharmaceutical companies, especially when it is often that drug cocktails or what they call Polypharmacology, is the answer to complete drug therapy. Please tell us a bit more with your work there. >> Yeah thank you again for having me here this morning Dr. Goh, it's a pleasure to be here and as you said, I'm from the National Center for Natural Products Research you'll hear me refer to it as the NCNPR here in Oxford, Mississippi on the Ole Miss Campus, beautiful setting here in the South and so, what, as you said historically, what the drug discovery process has been, and it's really not a drug discovery process is really a therapy process, traditional medicine is we've looked at natural products from medicinal plants okay, in these extracts and so where I'd like to begin is really sort of talking about the assets that we have here at the NCNPR one of those prime assets, unique assets is our medicinal plant repository which comprises approximately 15,000 different medicinal plants. And what that allows us to do, right is to screen mine, that repository for activities so whether you have a disease of interest or whether you have a target of interest then you can use this medicinal plant repository to look for actives, in this case active plants. It's really important in today's environment of drug discovery to really understand what are the actives in these different medicinal plants which leads me to the second unique asset here at the NCNPR and that is our what I'll call a plant deconstruction laboratory so without going into great detail, but what that allows us to do is through a how to put workstation, right, is to facilitate rapid isolation and identification of phytochemicals in these different medicinal plants right, and so things that have historically taken us weeks and sometimes months, think acetylsalicylic acid from salicylic acid as a pain reliever in the willow bark or Taxol, right as an anti-cancer drug, right now we can do that with this system on the matter of days or weeks so now we're talking about activity from a plant and extract down to phytochemical characterization on a timescale, which starts to make sense in modern drug discovery, alright and so now if you look at these phytochemicals, right, and you ask yourself, well sort of who is interested in that and why, right what are traditional pharmaceutical companies, right which I've been working with for 20, over 25 years now, right, typically uses these natural products where historically has used these natural products as starting points for new drugs. Right, so in other words, take this phytochemical and make chemicals synthetic modifications in order to achieve a potential drug. But in the context of natural products, unlike the pharmaceutical realm, there is often times a big knowledge gap between a disease and a plant in other words I have a plant that has activity, but how to connect those dots has been really laborious time consuming so it took us probably 50 years to go from salicylic acid and willow bark to synthesize acetylsalicylic acid or aspirin it just doesn't work in today's environment. So casting about trying to figure out how we expedite that process that's when about four years ago, I read a really fascinating article in the Los Angeles Times about my colleague and business partner, Dr. Rangan Sukumar, describing all the interesting things that he was doing in the area of Artificial Intelligence. And one of my favorite parts of this story is basically, unannounced, I arrived at his doorstep in Oak Ridge, he was working Oak Ridge National Labs at the time, and I introduced myself to him didn't know what was coming, didn't know who I was, right and I said, hey, you don't know me you don't know why I'm here, I said, but let me tell you what I want to do with your system, right and so that kicked off a very fruitful collaboration and friendship over the last four years using Artificial Intelligence and it's culminated most recently in our COVID-19 project collaborative research between the NCNPR and HP in this case. >> From what I can understand also as Chris has mentioned highly iterative, especially with these combination mixture of chemicals right, in plants that could affect a disease. We need to put in effort to figure out what are the active components in that, that affects it yeah, the combination and given the layman's way of understanding it you know and therefore iterative and highly data intensive. And I can see why Rangan can play a huge significant role here, Rangan, thank you for joining us So it's just a nice segue to bring you in here, you know, given your work with Ryan over so many years now, tell I think I'm also quite interested in knowing a little about how it developed the first time you met and the process and the things you all work together on that culminated into the progress at the advanced level today. Please tell us a little bit about that history and also the current work. Rangan. >> So, Ryan, like he mentioned, walked into my office about four years ago and he was like hey, I'm working on this Omega-3 fatty acid, what can your system tell me about this Omega-3 fatty acid and I didn't even know how to spell Omega-3 fatty acids that's the disconnect between the technologist and the pharmacologist, they have terms of their own right since then we've come a long way I think I understand his terminologies now and he understands that I throw words like knowledge graphs and page rank and then all kinds of weird stuff that he's probably never heard in his life before right, so it's been on my mind off to different domains and terminologies in trying to accept each other's expertise in trying to work together on a collaborative project. I think the core of what Ryan's work and collaboration has led me to understanding is what happens with the drug discovery process, right so when we think about the discovery itself, we're looking at companies that are trying to accelerate the process to market, right an average drug is taking 12 years to get to market the process that Chris just mentioned, Right and so companies are trying to adopt what's called the in silico simulation techniques and in silico modeling techniques into what was predominantly an in vitro, in silico, in vivo environment, right. And so the in silico techniques could include things like molecular docking, could include Artificial Intelligence, could include other data-driven discovery methods and so forth, and the essential component of all the things that you know the discovery workflows have is the ability to augment human experts to do the best by assisting them with what computers do really really well. So, in terms of what we've done as examples is Ryan walks in and he's asking me a bunch of questions and few that come to mind immediately, the first few are, hey, you are an Artificial Intelligence expert can you sift through a database of molecules the 15,000 compounds that he described to prioritize a few for next lab experiments? So that's question number one. And he's come back into my office and asked me about hey, there's 30 million publications in PubMag and I don't have the time to read everything can you create an Artificial Intelligence system that once I've picked these few molecules will tell me everything about the molecule or everything about the virus, the unknown virus that shows up, right. Just trying to understand what are some ways in which he can augment his expertise, right. And then the third question, I think he described better than I'm going to was how can technology connect these dots. And typically it's not that the answer to a drug discovery problem sits in one database, right he probably has to think about uniproduct protein he has to think about phytochemical, chemical or informatics properties, data and so forth. Then he talked about the phytochemical interaction that's probably in another database. So when he is trying to answer other question and specifically in the context of an unknown virus that showed up in late last year, the question was, hey, do we know what happened in this particular virus compared to all the previous viruses? Do we know of any substructure that was studied or a different disease that's part of this unknown virus and can I use that information to go mine these databases to find out if these interactions can actually be used as a repurpose saying, hook, say this drug does not interact with this subsequence of a known virus that also seems to be part of this new virus, right? So to be able to connect that dot I think the abstraction that we are learning from working with pharma companies is that this drug discovery process is complex, it's iterative, and it's a sequence of needle in the haystack search problems, right and so one day, Ryan would be like, hey, I need to match genome, I need to match protein sequences between two different viruses. Another day it would be like, you know, I need to sift through a database of potential compounds, identified side effects and whatnot other day it could be, hey, I need to design a new molecule that never existed in the world before I'll figure out how to synthesize it later on, but I need a completely new molecule because of patentability reasons, right so it goes through the entire spectrum. And I think where HP has differentiated multiple times even the recent weeks is that the technology infusion into drug discovery, leads to several aha! Moments. And, aha moments typically happened in the other few seconds, and not the hours, days, months that Ryan has to laboriously work through. And what we've learned is pharma researchers love their aha moments and it leads to a sound valid, well founded hypothesis. Isn't that true Ryan? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Yeah, at some point I would like to have a look at your, peak the list of your aha moments, yeah perhaps there's something quite interesting in there for other industries too, but we'll do it at another time. Chris, you know, with your regular work with pharmaceutical companies especially the big pharmas, right, do you see botanicals, coming, being talked about more and more there? >> Yeah, we do, right. Looking at kind of biosimilars and drugs that are already really in existence is kind of an important point and Dr. Yates and Rangan, with your work with databases this is something important to bring up and much of the drug discovery in today's world, isn't from going out and finding a brand new molecule per se. It's really looking at all the different databases, right all the different compounds that already exist and sifting through those, right of course data is mind, and it is gold essentially, right so a lot of companies don't want to share their data. A lot of those botanicals data sets are actually open to the public to use in many cases and people are wanting to have more collaborative efforts around those databases so that's really interesting to kind of see that being picked up more and more. >> Mm, well and Ryan that's where NCNPR hosts much of those datasets, yeah right and it's interesting to me, right you know, you were describing the traditional way of drug discovery where you have a target and a compound, right that can affect that target, very very specific. But from a botanical point of view, you really say for example, I have an extract from a plant that has combination of chemicals and somehow you know, it affects this disease but then you have to reverse engineer what those chemicals are and what the active ones are. Is that very much the issue, the work that has to be put in for botanicals in this area? >> Yes Doctor Goh, you hit it exactly. >> Now I can understand why a highly iterative intensive and data intensive, and perhaps that's why Rangan, you're highly valuable here, right. So tell us about the challenge, right the many to many intersection to try and find what the targets are, right given these botanicals that seem to affect the disease here what methods do you use, right in AI, to help with this? >> Fantastic question, I'm going to go a little bit deeper and speak like Ryan in terminology, but here we go. So with going back to about starting of our conversation right, so let's say we have a database of molecules on one side, and then we've got the database of potential targets in a particular, could be a virus, could be bacteria, could be whatever, a disease target that you've identified, right >> Oh this process so, for example, on a virus, you can have a number of targets on the virus itself some have the spike protein, some have the other proteins on the surface so there are about three different targets and others on a virus itself, yeah so a lot of people focus on the spike protein, right but there are other targets too on that virus, correct? >> That is exactly right. So for example, so the work that we did with Ryan we realized that, you know, COVID-19 protein sequence has an overlap, a significant overlap with previous SARS-CoV-1 virus, not only that, but it overlap with MERS, that's overlapped with some bad coronavirus that was studied before and so forth, right so knowing that and it's actually broken down into multiple and Ryan I'm going to steal your words, non-structural proteins, envelope proteins, S proteins, there's a whole substructure that you can associate an amino acid sequence with, right so on the one hand, you have different targets and again, since we did the work it's 160 different targets even on the COVID-19 mark, right and so you find a match, that we say around 36, 37 million molecules that are potentially synthesizable and try to figure it out which one of those or which few of those is actually going to be mapping to which one of these targets and actually have a mechanism of action that Ryan's looking for, that'll inhibit the symptoms on a human body, right so that's the challenge there. And so I think the techniques that we can unrule go back to how much do we know about the target and how much do we know about the molecule, alright. And if you start off a problem with I don't know anything about the molecule and I don't know anything about the target, you go with the traditional approaches of docking and molecular dynamics simulations and whatnot, right. But then, you've done so much docking before on the same database for different targets, you'll learn some new things about the ligands, the molecules that Ryan's talking about that can predict potential targets. So can you use that information of previous protein interactions or previous binding to known existing targets with some of the structures and so forth to build a model that will capture that essence of what we have learnt from the docking before? And so that's the second level of how do we infuse Artificial Intelligence. The third level, is to say okay, I can do this for a database of molecules, but then what if the protein-protein interactions are all over the literature study for millions of other viruses? How do I connect the dots across different mechanisms of actions too? Right and so this is where the knowledge graph component that Ryan was talking about comes in. So we've put together a database of about 150 billion medical facts from literature that Ryan is able to connect the dots and say okay, I'm starting with this molecule, what interactions do I know about the molecule? Is there a pretty intruding interaction that affects the mechanism of pathway for the symptoms that a disease is causing? And then he can go and figure out which protein and protein in the virus could potentially be working with this drug so that inhibiting certain activities would stop that progression of the disease from happening, right so like I said, your method of options, the options you've got is going to be, how much do you know about the target? How much do you know the drug database that you have and how much information can you leverage from previous research as you go down this pipeline, right so in that sense, I think we mix and match different methods and we've actually found that, you know mixing and matching different methods produces better synergies for people like Ryan. So. >> Well, the synergies I think is really important concept, Rangan, in additivities, synergistic, however you want to catch that. Right. But it goes back to your initial question Dr. Goh, which is this idea of polypharmacology and historically what we've done with traditional medicines there's more than one active, more than one network that's impacted, okay. You remember how I sort of put you on both ends of the spectrum which is the traditional sort of approach where we really don't know much about target ligand interaction to the completely interpretal side of it, right where now we are all, we're focused on is, in a single molecule interacting with a target. And so where I'm going with this is interesting enough, pharma has sort of migrate, started to migrate back toward the middle and what I mean by that, right, is we had these in a concept of polypharmacology, we had this idea, a regulatory pathway of so-called, fixed drug combinations. Okay, so now you start to see over the last 20 years pharmaceutical companies taking known, approved drugs and putting them in different combinations to impact different diseases. Okay. And so I think there's a really unique opportunity here for Artificial Intelligence or as Rangan has taught me, Augmented Intelligence, right to give you insight into how to combine those approved drugs to come up with unique indications. So is that patentability right, getting back to right how is it that it becomes commercially viable for entities like pharmaceutical companies but I think at the end of the day what's most interesting to me is sort of that, almost movement back toward that complex mixture of fixed drug combination as opposed to single drug entity, single target approach. I think that opens up some really neat avenues for us. As far as the expansion, the applicability of Artificial Intelligence is I'd like to talk to, briefly about one other aspect, right so what Rang and I have talked about is how do we take this concept of an active phytochemical and work backwards. In other words, let's say you identify a phytochemical from an in silico screening process, right, which was done for COVID-19 one of the first publications out of a group, Dr. Jeremy Smith's group at Oak Ridge National Lab, right, identified a natural product as one of the interesting actives, right and so it raises the question to our botanical guy, says, okay, where in nature do we find that phytochemical? What plants do I go after to try and source botanical drugs to achieve that particular end point right? And so, what Rangan's system allows us to do is to say, okay, let's take this phytochemical in this case, a phytochemical flavanone called eriodictyol and say, where else in nature is this found, right that's a trivial question for an Artificial Intelligence system. But for a guy like me left to my own devices without AI, I spend weeks combing the literature. >> Wow. So, this is brilliant I've learned something here today, right, If you find a chemical that actually, you know, affects and addresses a disease, right you can actually try and go the reverse way to figure out what botanicals can give you those chemicals as opposed to trying to synthesize them. >> Well, there's that and there's the other, I'm going to steal Rangan's thunder here, right he always teach me, Ryan, don't forget everything we talk about has properties, plants have properties, chemicals have properties, et cetera it's really understanding those properties and using those properties to make those connections, those edges, those sort of interfaces, right. And so, yes, we can take something like an eriodictyol right, that example I gave before and say, okay, now, based upon the properties of eriodictyol, tell me other phytochemicals, other flavonoid in this case, such as that phytochemical class of eriodictyols part right, now tell me how, what other phytochemicals match that profile, have the same properties. It might be more economically viable, right in other words, this particular phytochemical is found in a unique Himalayan plant that I've never been able to source, but can we find something similar or same thing growing in, you know a bush found all throughout the Southeast for example, like. >> Wow. So, Chris, on the pharmaceutical companies, right are they looking at this approach of getting, building drugs yeah, developing drugs? >> Yeah, absolutely Dr. Goh, really what Dr. Yates is talking about, right it doesn't help us if we find a plant and that plant lives on one mountain only on the North side in the Himalayas, we're never going to be able to create enough of a drug to manufacture and to provide to the masses, right assuming that the disease is widespread or affects a large enough portion of the population, right so understanding, you know, not only where is that botanical or that compound but understanding the chemical nature of the chemical interaction and the physics of it as well where which aspect affects the binding site, which aspect of the compound actually does the work, if you will and then being able to make that at scale, right. If you go to these pharmaceutical companies today, many of them look like breweries to be honest with you, it's large scale, it's large back everybody's clean room and it's, they're making the microbes do the work for them or they have these, you know, unique processes, right. So. >> So they're not brewing beer okay, but drugs instead. (Christopher laughs) >> Not quite, although there are pharmaceutical companies out there that have had a foray into the brewery business and vice versa, so. >> We should, we should visit one of those, yeah (chuckles) Right, so what's next, right? So you've described to us the process and how you develop your relationship with Dr. Yates Ryan over the years right, five years, was it? And culminating in today's, the many to many fast screening methods, yeah what would you think would be the next exciting things you would do other than letting me peek at your aha moments, right what would you say are the next exciting steps you're hoping to take? >> Thinking long term, again this is where Ryan and I are working on this long-term project about, we don't know enough about botanicals as much as we know about the synthetic molecules, right and so this is a story that's inspired from Simon Sinek's "Infinite Game" book, trying to figure it out if human population has to survive for a long time which we've done so far with natural products we are going to need natural products, right. So what can we do to help organizations like NCNPR to stage genomes of natural products to stage and understand the evolution as we go to understand the evolution to map the drugs and so forth. So the vision is huge, right so it's not something that we want to do on a one off project and go away but in the process, just like you are learning today, Dr. Goh I'm going to be learning quite a bit, having fun with life. So, Ryan what do you think? >> Ryan, we're learning from you. >> So my paternal grandfather lived to be 104 years of age. I've got a few years to get there, but back to "The Infinite Game" concept that Rang had mentioned he and I discussed that quite frequently, I'd like to throw out a vision for you that's well beyond that sort of time horizon that we have as humans, right and that's this right, is our current strategy and it's understandable is really treatment centric. In other words, we have a disease we develop a treatment for that disease. But we all recognize, whether you're a healthcare practitioner, whether you're a scientist, whether you're a business person, right or whatever occupation you realize that prevention, right the old ounce, prevention worth a pound of cure, right is how can we use something like Artificial Intelligence to develop preventive sorts of strategies that we are able to predict with time, right that's why we don't have preventive treatment approach right, we can't do a traditional clinical trial and say, did we prevent type two diabetes in an 18 year old? Well, we can't do that on a timescale that is reasonable, okay. And then the other part of that is why focus on botanicals? Is because, for the most part and there are exceptions I want to be very clear, I don't want to paint the picture that botanicals are all safe, you should just take botanicals dietary supplements and you'll be safe, right there are exceptions, but for the most part botanicals, natural products are in fact safe and have undergone testing, human testing for thousands of years, right. So how do we connect those dots? A preventive strategy with existing extent botanicals to really develop a healthcare system that becomes preventive centric as opposed to treatment centric. If I could wave a magic wand, that's the vision that I would figure out how we could achieve, right and I do think with guys like Rangan and Chris and folks like yourself, Eng Lim, that that's possible. Maybe it's in my lifetime I got 50 years to go to get to my grandfather's age, but you never know, right? >> You bring really, up two really good points there Ryan, it's really a systems approach, right understanding that things aren't just linear, right? And as you go through it, there's no impact to anything else, right taking that systems approach to understand every aspect of how things are being impacted. And then number two was really kind of the downstream, really we've been discussing the drug discovery process a lot and kind of the kind of preclinical in vitro studies and in vivo models, but once you get to the clinical trial there are many drugs that just fail, just fail miserably and the botanicals, right known to be safe, right, in many instances you can have a much higher success rate and that would be really interesting to see, you know, more of at least growing in the market. >> Well, these are very visionary statements from each of you, especially Dr. Yates, right, prevention better than cure, right, being proactive better than being reactive. Reactive is important, but we also need to focus on being proactive. Yes. Well, thank you very much, right this has been a brilliant panel with brilliant panelists, Dr. Ryan Yates, Dr. Rangan Sukumar and Chris Davidson. Thank you very much for joining us on this panel and highly illuminating conversation. Yeah. All for the future of drug discovery, that includes botanicals. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>>everybody, this is Dave Vellante. May 27th were hosting a crowd chat going on crowdchat dot net slash data ops. Data ops is all about automating the data pipeline infusing AI and operationalize ing ai and the Data Pipeline and your organizations, which has been a real challenge for companies over the last several years in most of the decade. With me is aljaz cannoli. What's changed? That companies can now succeed at automating and operationalize in the data pipeline. >>You're so right, David. As's faras. I remember myself in this industry data challenges that the bottlenecks are the bottlenecks. So why now? I think we can answer that one from three angles. People process technology. What changing people? What changes process will change with technology. Let me start with the technology part on the technology front. Right now. The compute power is they were rare and the cloud multi cloud artificial intelligence, Social mobile all connected and giving the power to the organizations to deal with these problems, especially, I want to highlight the artificial intelligence part, and I will highlight it with how IBM is leveraging artificial intelligence to solve some of the dormant data problems. One of the major major doorman problem is on boarding data. If you're unable to onboard your data fast, however beautiful factory the all the factor lines shining, waiting for data if you cannot. Onboard data fast, all dress is waiting. But what IBM did automated made metadata generation capabilities which is on boarding data leveraging artificial intelligence models so that it is not only on boarding the data but on boarding the data in a way that everyone can understand it. When data scientist looks at the data, look at the data. They don't stare at the data but they understand what that data means because it >>is >>interpreted into business taxonomy into business language in the fast fashion that is one the technology, the second part people and process parts so important in the process part the methodology. Now we have the methodologies, the first methodology that I would just say as a change. Sometimes we we call that as a legal I don't know whether you heard about it in an agile So these legal methodologies now asking us to how alterations fail >>fast, Try fast, fail fast, Try fast >>and these agile methodologies are now being applied to data pipelines in weeks, off iterations, we can look at the most important business challenge with the KP eyes that you're trying to achieve and then map those KP eyes to data sources needed to answer those KP eyes and then streamline everything in between passed. So that renders a change like this the market that we are in. Then all those data flows are streamlined and optimize. And during the Cube interview during the Cube program that we put together, you will see some of the organizations will mention that is agile practice they put in place in every geography is now even getting them closer and closer, because now we all depend on and >>live on digital. So I'm very excited because ah, interviewing Standard Bank Associated Bank. Harley Davidson, IBM chief data officer into public. Sorry to talk about how IBM is sort of drunk, its own champagne eating. It's own dog food. Whatever you prefer. This is not the the mumbo jumbo marketing. This is practitioners who are gonna talk about how they succeeded, how they funded these initiatives, how they did the business case, some of the challenges that they face, how they dealt with classification and metadata and some of the outcomes that they have. So join us on the crowd. Chat crowdchat dot net slash data ops on May 27th. Go there at your calendar. We'll see you in the crowdchat.

>> Hi everybody, this is Dave Velante with the CUBE. And when we talk to practitioners about data and AI they have troubles infusing AI into their data pipeline and automating that data pipeline. So we're bringing together the community, brought to you by IBM to really understand how successful organizations are operationalizing the data pipeline and with me to talk about that is Aliye Ozcan. Aliye, hello, introduce yourself. Tell us about who you are. >> Hi Dave, how are you doing? Yes, my name is Aliye Ozcan I'm the Data Operations Data ops Global Marketing Leader at IBM. >> So I'm very excited about this project. Go to crowdchat.net/dataops, add it to your calendar and check it out. So we have practitioners, Aliye from Harley Davidson, Standard Bank, Associated Bank. What are we going to learn from them? >> What we are going to learn from them is the data experiences. What are the data challenges that they are going through? What are the data bottlenecks that they had? And especially in these challenging times right now. The industry is going through this challenging time. We are all going through this. How the foundation that they invested. Is now helping them to pivot quickly to market demands, the new market demands fast. That is fascinating to see, and I'm very excited having individual conversations with those experts and bringing those stories to the audience here. >> Awesome, and we also have Inderpal Bhandari from the CDO office at IBM, so go to crowdchat.net/dataops, add it to your calendar, we'll see you in the crowd chat.

>>Hi, everyone. My name is Julia Moskin. Indeed. Data operations data offs, global marketing leader >>at IBM. >>Big data is all about delivering trusted data fast through applications, operations, >>the business user. Why important? >>Why now? To meet market demands past and to give it to changing market conditions past. It is essential for organizations to put the right data into the right hands at the right time passed. And that is what they do provide a data ops gets you well, I believe we put in our virtual program for you. Bringing industry experts from Standard sprang from Associated Bank from Hardy Davidson and also from IBM Global Data >>Office Chief Data Office >>sharing their experiences discussing the why the what and the how, as well as discussing the questions like, Is there the best time to implement today the ops program? More importantly, you will have a chance to chat with the crowd and with these experts and subject matter experts and beyond During 30 minutes asking your questions, sharing your insights, it will be a very fulfilling learning experience for you. We're looking forward to seeing you there. Stay well. Stay safe. >>Thank you.

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to the Cube's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live 2020. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube Dave Volante Ecosystem Minimum here all week in Barcelona, kicking off 2020 With the keynote analysis, Cisco just unveiled their looks like their plan for the year and what looks like a future direction of Cisco again. We were here past two years covering Cisco Live. We'll be at the US show this year as well. David Stew Keynote analysis. Let's get into it right away. Mostly you start to still see the messaging Positioning unfolding in front of us is clearly not there yet. A lot of people have their check boxes that rotation David get kicked it off. I mean, when we kicked it off David gentler key executive, really leading the charge here. But this is about Cisco setting the table. Let's get into it. What do you guys think? I thought it was a good keynote. I thought was a little bit lacking in the story, telling what was the thread was no common thread. Heard a lot of little cloud. I heard a lot of sis card, a lot of speeds and feeds. Everyone kind of has their turn, and all the top people were on there. What's your thoughts? >>Well, who is? Cisco was my first thought. Is your kid coming out of college? You hear that keynote, which I agree was good keynote. But I still wouldn't be sure exactly what Cisco does on. And so I think that you're right, that messaging needs to be tightened up. There needs to be a threat. At the same time, we saw some innovation. They sort of double down on the December announcements and talked about that. I really liked the collaboration that that's been a sleepy market zoom change that woke everybody up. And so we saw some interesting features. Their stuff on app d. They made a lot of claims, which I don't know if they're true or not. It seemed like VM Ware could do some of that stuff and new relic and some of the others dynatrace. But Cisco is coming at it from a networking area of strength, and, um so I guess my bottom line is, I still wanna understand what that threat is, and they talked about multi cloud. I really do think that Cisco is in the best position to connect those clouds to on Prem and Hybrid. They've got the data from the network, and they're in the best position to leverage that for value for their customers. Kind of came through, but I think it's my inference, not their claim. I was >>a little surprised. A This third year we've done this show, and usually there's, you know, the new tag line, and they were reusing the bridge to possible and feels still where things are coming together. Francisco, as you and John were saying, some of the products moving together. So it's awesome chatter on Twitter said, Oh, great Inter site and Empty, actually going to integrate and work well together on that integration messages, one that Cisco's highlighting Cisco's always had a really broad ecosystem. They put up the video about like, you know, if you know the Internet and everything you've done, we've been there, and we're going to drive that for the next generation in the collaboration space. It's not the same WebEx that you've known forever heck, you know, we're gonna have Microsoft with teams and WebEx trying to squint through that a little bit and say, Okay, well, Cisco's got a bunch of devices. Is that all it is? Is, you know, being saying great. You know, I've got Cisco Devices and therefore, if I'm you know, teams customer for Microsoft, I can plug into that. It seems like there's a lot of inter networking pieces underneath the covers there because Microsoft driving hard in that space. Zoom as you said Dave, for the quick, easy experience that that came out of Cisco. So a lot of things moving in the collaboration space. But in the hardcore data, says center space workload Optimizer is something that they were focused on. Talk about the new router Jonathan Davidson, who we'll have on the Cube tomorrow, talking about that space. So Cisco's got a very broad portfolio, and John, I think you nailed it. I did not come out of it. A consistent You know who Cisco is. The message for how we're going to partner with in the future. >>The day bring up a good point college kid looks at This is a good way to kind of zoom out of the technical world. Remember, David Gettler is a technical person. He ran engineering. He sees his big marketing word is multi domain. Come on, Multi domain is not a marketing word. It's just it's a technical feature, but >>this is a >>technical show and a lot of their audience here at the show. We are techies, and so it's clear to me that Cisco's brick by brick building the sass ification, the cloud ification of Cisco and this is something. I think they're not yet ready to pull the switch on Dave as to use a sailing analogy as they attack into the marketplace. They got to do a full turn on the boat. I think this is just the progression. I think it's natural to see Cisco spending millions of billions of dollars as we heard cloud defying and creating this subscription business model. The other notable things is you start to see some tell signs from the keynote, a few little things and I picked up out of this that shows that they're kind of going in the right direction. Still a lot more work to do, and the story needs to be up leveled a bit. I totally agree, rather than just speeds and feeds the classic enterprise. But Wendy hit it clearly. Business model is the new killer app, and I think all the things that we've discussed over the past 10 years to past five, in particular with Cloud Native is the business outcomes is what the APS are focused on. And so they're headlining the event with APP application dynamics, which makes sense. But it's not clear enough that the business model is the key to everything, and you're gonna connect businesses what Cisco does. I mean, what a Cisco Date. They connect business that's been their their mission. From day one, they >>got to take that message, bring it >>up with the applications, are driving business model changes and results. And I think that's the thread they're trying to get through and trying to thread the needle. They're they're just not ready. >>See, from an umbrella messaging standpoint, I think that would have been a lot more effective. But some of the things that I liked in the keynote, you know, Wendy Mars did talk about the importance of privacy, how Europe is leading in diversity. So so that is really important. And they also talked about how last decade was all about enabling APS. And this decade is going to be all about enabling APs and to your point, about enabling business. John. They talked a lot about bringing I t an OT together lists, and Tony really made a big point of that. When we walked into The DEV. Net zone, there was all these network engineers looking at an I O T presentation, these air I t guys trying to learn about the edge in OT. And so I think that's a really important message to the collaboration front. You know, some neat, neat features I just wanted to mention. But my understanding is that Microsoft Teams is all about taking its the old Skype business, which has, like, fallen off a cliff because everybody hates Skype and migrating at the team so they can compete more effectively with WebEx and the rest of them. So again, a lot of different parts of Cisco, but I think there was some definite innovation there, and then when I talked about they're December announcements the optics, the silicon one and the software bringing that together, you know, that is going to power service providers for the next 5 10 years, >>we'll do. I want to get your thoughts here because one of the things that we're observing and they've got hit with teams is that they're kind of groping a little bit on areas. Everyone's gonna get their time on stage. I get that. You know, the comment I made yesterday in our pre game day zero analysis was that there needs to be a Tesla of this industry and to completely change the game. So I think Cisco, if they take the business, we're connecting businesses and looking for a business model. Change is we're gonna look for the engine of the of the car of the application of the company and then what it ISS. So Cisco as a company, is the car, the engines were there, the weaknesses. So if you look at Cisco, all they do is talk about the engine and the features of the Pistons and all the technical speeds and feeds. That's great, but at the end of the day it's a new environment on the business front and I think they got to get that kind of conversion and bring that together Because, of course, they have to check the boxes on. Look, we've got a new engine. We've got new clouds modification. This is where it's at, but it's the destination that you're driving to, which is a business model Outcomes. So, you know, under the hood, are they there? So it seems to be they're still trying to get the engine fixed, and then they could roll out >>one of the things when we always look at all of these keynotes is Are they effectively letting customers tell their story? And does that resonate with what they're talking about? For the piece I saw, I only saw two customers. There was a video with Michael Bay, Great special effects. And actually, you know, I thought it kind of resonated because it's like, Okay, you know, I've got 10 locations shooting around the world and you know, there's terror, bits of information. He's like, I don't even know what a terabyte. It sounds like a dinosaur. And of course, all the networking like Ha ha. You know, you do cool exploding stuff, but you don't know what a terabyte is. And then they had Airbus and Dave, you talked about. Listen, Tony got up on stage and look at it and ot they don't play well together and that's we've done research, looking at the challenge of really delivering on I ot it is that schism between I T and OT and I would have loved to hear a little bit more because she said, Oh well, our tools just enable ot to work on anything. It's not that easy. Just >>well, I throw >>those two worlds >>together, key their security, and we're talking about securing critical infrastructure and really, that's a whole new opportunity in realm. I mean, it kind of came through, but But that's the linchpin is really securing that critical infrastructure, whether it's power plants, it roads, all kinds of logistics and a >>lot of one on Dave. I mean, this is the whole point about Cisco's challenges. One from a story standpoint is complex from a technology integration standpoint complex because you got application awareness, which is going down to the network. And then they showed a lot of that, and I thought that was a key highlight that didn't actually come through, but they did present it. They got the clarification story And then they got network automation all those things, as well as five g around the corner. Silicon One is a lot coming >>together. Nailed that, I mean, no doubt, >>a lot coming together. And I think the key is Is that Scott? Harold nailed it. I think we get clearer and the team are right on the money. On terms of the engine is intent based networking. Multi domain. Is that to me means multi cloud and hybrid. Nail that, and you can get those kinds of innovations. And I think Scott Harrell said it. Simplification is key security and inclusive of the cloud that one word to use, he said. We're talking about something that's inclusive of cloud. He really slam Cloud, he said. You know, it's a fancy place. It's Nirvana. But don't forget the intent of having the on premise basically. So I thought that was a nice thread, the three layers of insight security business in I T. But to me it's simple. I think Cisco needs to think differently around how they position themselves, because if they're going to throw WebEx out there and throw out all these analytics and data, they're a data company. They're a data first company, and they have to be a video first company of its five G. And they got to be a virtual first company because the new future workplace is about having those kinds of workloads running those kinds of app set, you know, feed the modern enterprise. And to me, my premise is, if you can automate it, it's not a feature for the modern modern enterprise has. Automation will be critical of everything, and you can't have bloated software running virtual first environment. >>But to your point, Cisco's advantage is that the data is running through the network, so they have visibility on that data. So they are in a very good position to leverage that data for automation and to connect businesses. Networks of data video is killer feature for that. I mean, they really are the only company right now in the business that can do that. >>Yeah, actually, I like the analogy. They said you should think of the network as a sensor. This is what's going to be able to drive your insight and outcomes. It's not just the plumbing anymore, but you know, that's one of the earliest areas where we drove analytics and data out of everything that's going on and set them up for that machine learning and AI world that people are driving toe extract data >>and to your point on cloud. I mean, look it. They know that you sort of reference that the cloud is slowly eating away at their opportunity because I T practitioners will tell you what the more we do in the cloud, the less we're gonna have to spend on our own network year. >>Yeah, but here's the thing that's coming out. And during the SD win section, I was making some comments >>on >>YouTube channel. SD Win is really, to me, a bellwether of how this goes because latency matters. If you're in the Cisco ecosystem, it's late in the late latency. And if the win is the new land, which is my premise than the interactions with security between the routes becomes critical, right? So you have to have that kind of insight. So we look at something like Web experiences on the collaboration side is that product truly defined for that environment? And I think you mentioned Zoom earlier as kind of waking everyone up is they've built a product around latency and around the environment around land, not the land. So WebEx and desktop is not the state of the art. So unless you got an NVIDIA graphics card designed into it and gaming rig, it's gotta be mobile. It's gonna be over a land link for virtual. And I think if the software to bloated, it's not gonna work. And I think that's gonna be an area that Cisco is going to look at and say, Does these products fit this new use case? >>Okay, so let's say three days of coverage, right? We did. Day Zero is actually four days of coverage for us. We got a lot of good guests coming on. A lot of Cisco execs. What >>are you guys looking for? This. Let's go look at the week we had a lot of guests coming on. Dave's do. What are you guys looking for? In terms of analysis? What are you looking to tease out of the show? >>Well, like any of these shows, I'm really trying to look at the substance, trying to understand the announcements that they're making, how real they are and how they map into the customer's view of what it is that they need. I say the collaboration thing is interesting to me. I was really concerned about Cisco. I thought they were just sort of sitting on their laurels. I think they're WebEx install Base is gonna really look hard at these features. If they're in fact, they're available. I want to understand from practitioners and particularly service providers, You know what they think of all this new stuff that's coming out cause it's expensive. But that's a big, big cap ex investment for these guys. And I want understanding the core Cisco business, their their data center business, their networks. They're hyper converged where they stand competitively. And the last thing is the partner ecosystem. You know, we've talked about how they have to walk a fine line between, you know, servicing guys like IBM and Netapp and then also competing with their former great partner in EMC now Dell, EMC, and how they're gonna go forward in the next 10 years. >>Yeah, you touched on the partner ecosystem and service riders. Edge is the next big opportunity for Cisco, and how will they leverage what they're doing to support all of those partners? going forward. Big thing I'm looking for this week as well as a Z you said Dave. Maturation of a lot of the pieces that they add. Where's the substance behind the announcements that they've made? How much of them are table stakes that we see some of the other environs? Collaboration Space John. As you said, Oh, here's these things on the desktop I could do all these things on my phone was so trying to understand what is differentiated >>awesome for me I'm looking for actually, we're in the Dev Net Zone Cube. I'm looking for the developer equations that came up clear, kind of last with Susie Wee. But she put the new world of developers that's going to change the whole CC certification area and on the ecosystem. And for the developers, it's a C I O T. D and a center Inter site an umbrella. Outside of that, I'm gonna be looking for how Cisco is looking at cloud ification of networking network as a service way into Cloud versus internal SD win simplification of the edge security and networking common policy to name a few know talk a WiFi. I mean, WiFi is the preferred connectivity point inside the enterprise. And how does that relate to the whole edge thing? Application awareness. I really jazzed up by app D and I think where they're going with that is really gonna be the front end of that network policy. And that application awareness is critical on finally network automation from See I CD pipeline into analytics and how that relates to Fixed Wireless the five G, which is going to be I o. T. In the subscription based model. So yeah, to me, that's the That's the big picture. I want to dig into those areas >>that you are the things if I May 1 is this gestalt of, um, I'm gonna buy best of breed or am I going to buy from, you know, one throat to choke? And I think Cisco is obviously trying to be the ladder, and I think the last for me. Security, security, security. And how is Cisco going to help practitioners implement the best security possible? >>Yeah. And John John mentioned in the DEV. Net zone. It is that modernization of the workforce, one of the last things in the keynote they want, accelerate the 1st 500 certified definite engineers out there. So what Sisi Iea's had been doing for many decades, many of them in the future are going to be part of that dev net with security being one of the key areas that we focus >>on. And, of course, we're the top story that so far out of the keynote to me, the top story so far is that Cisco is not gonna yield to the big cloud guys, They're brick by brick moving the needle on their rebooting of their products to be cloud enabled for hybrid. And then ultimately, in multi cloud. And I still think the big switches coming. They haven't pull that lever. They haven't yet made a big move, I think a lot more to come. So we're gonna be digging in to the guys. Thanks for the analysis. Keynote analysis here. Day one of Cisco live in Barcelona kicking off in setting the agenda for 2020. It's the cube coverage. I'm John for Stu Minima Dave Volante. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Announcer: From London, England, it's theCUBE, covering Coupa Inspire '19 EMEA, brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE! Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Coupa Inspire. Because I'm in the UK, I have to say, you know of Sting, right? Well, guess who's here? Somebody cool enough to go by one name, it's Chandar, the CMO at Coupa. Welcome back! >> Great, Lisa, it's great to be here. >> So, this morning kicked off with Rob's talk all about community. One of the interesting things about Coupa is this community that you guys have built. Talk to me about, I know $1.3 trillion of spend is going through the Coupa platform, the community. Talk to me about how you've cultivated this community at Coupa. >> Yeah, it's a great question. Now, if you take a step back, you know, people don't buy features, people buy tribal feelings. And if you think it, if you look at, like, you know, if you look at a product like Harley-Davidson. Anybody can go buy any bike, but people are not buying the features, they're buying the tribal feeling of being part of that community. If you look at a product like Peloton, you know, people can go buy, have any stationary bike or any workout bike today. But they want to be part of that community. And as my wife tells me, Sephora, right? I don't have a lot of experience with that-- >> She's right. >> She is right, great, (Lisa laughs) thanks for the endorsement there. But again, it is about being part of the community and people like that and stuff, and that's what we're doing is, it's the features or the capability, it's the community the tribal feeling, and that's what Rob was talking about, the inspirational attributes of these different people that are part of this community, and how we're trying to, how we are building this community by showcasing the great leaders and their attributes and how they're transforming change in their organizations, and that's what we're creating in this conference, the feeling, the #emotion, of I want to be part of this cool club, and that's what we're doing. >> You know, a lot of companies talk about customer first, customer centricity. The community here is really helping Coupa innovate on its own technology. Talk to me about some of the things that, you know, since we last spoke, a few months ago, that have been inspired by the voice of the community. >> Yeah, so, you know, there is this concept of co-creation that Rob talked about today with our community. And a lot of the community is inspired by the community and it's for the community. And we have a number of innovations, 80 plus innovations that have been inspired in the last one year by the community. And even a concept like Source Together that Rob talked about, and the idea of Source Together is how can we come together as one community and drive the best negotiated savings together with a supplier, this is an idea that's been co-created with the community. So there's a number of different things. You look at community intelligence, Rob talked about commodity insights, as well as a number of other capabilities that we are showcasing today, has been driven, co-created, inspired by the community. And that's what's great. You want to set the innovation agenda for the industry by having this community inspire us. In fact we had our customer advisory board at every conference that is happening for us, and that's what drives to a lot of the innovation that we do today. >> Speaking of customers, Rob shared a lot of examples during his keynote this morning. I lost count of how many of your Coupa Spendsetters were mentioned, other customers, all with very strong business, measurable business outcomes. I know tomorrow in your keynote, you're going to be talking with a number of customers. But some of the things that are interesting about what Rob shared is these are examples that aren't just about refining procurement and reducing spend and, it's much more transformative. Give me some of your favorite examples of where this is beyond improving procurement. >> Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. And we have a number of stories, for example, tomorrow in my keynote, I'm going to be talking about storytelling, right. I'm going to be talking about how we can inspire the community through storytelling, and great storytelling starts with great storytellers. And these Spendsetters, and we can see them in the hallways here, we have found about 15 of them, and they're all great storytellers for one reason. They have great transformative stories in business spend management, but what makes them a great storyteller is that they're telling a story beyond the boundaries of the business spend management. Let me give a couple of examples, right. So one story that I'll highlight tomorrow is about Jarkko, the CPO of Telia. Now, I don't know if we know Telia, but 60% of the word's internet traffic goes through Telia. >> 60%? >> 60%. So everyday morning, checking out coupa.com that we all do. >> Every day. >> Or I'm looking at some less popular sites like Facebook or LinkedIn or anything else, you're probably on the Telia network, especially in this part of the world. And their challenge, their business spend management challenge is, they're pretty fragmented across the Nordics and the Baltics and other regions, and now with Jarkko, he's a strategic crusader, not a hired gun, but more of a driven crusader who's come in, transformed the sourcing function, made it more strategic, consolidated seven systems into one system with Coupa, and had 20,000 employees using that as well as all the different people for sourcing, so that they get the global benefits of scale across the regions. Now that's a great business spend management story, but what makes him a great storyteller, he's telling a story beyond the boundaries of business spend management, because he's not talking about savings attainability, he's talking about environmental sustainability, and the story he talks about is what their initiative at a board level is, you know, zero emission and zero waste by 2030, and how the work that his team is doing is directly impacting that board level initiative on how are they driving a communication strategy across the supplier base to get their environmental plans into the Telia's operations, and how me measures plans and progress of every supplier in their CO2 emission, and how that's going to be an explicit part of how they work with their suppliers, and how he is the trusted advisor that he is actually challenging everybody to rethink this whole idea of source to pay. That is telling a boundary beyond the boundaries of business spend management, it's telling a story. So that's one example, right. >> Is that a gentleman who's in procurement in finance within an organization? >> He is the CPO, the procurement-- >> That is having an impact on the sustainability footprint of the company. >> That's right, so directly associating with the initiative at a board level, right. So he's shifted it, by shifting the storytelling from talking about savings attainability to environmental sustainability, he shifted the perception of the organization from something that's operational to something that's very strategic in the organization. So that's one good storytelling. The other one I'll highlight, an example, is Matthieu at Global Fund. Now the Global Fund is the world's largest financier of fighting malaria, AIDS, HIV in 100-plus countries. They disperse $4 billion every year for that. And they have this partner called OneWorld.org, it's powered by Coupa, that Matthieu and his team are doing. So he could get a great business spend management story. He can say, you know, I've driven digital transformation, I've done 99.9% of my POs are electronic, and I've come to this new age of where, you know, on contract spend is being done, et cetera. Now what makes him a great storyteller, he's telling the story beyond the boundaries of BSM again. He's talking about a story of how this, the work that his team is doing, is directly impacting saving 32 million lives. How they are treating millions of people, get the right treatment for HIV, help pregnant mothers or on HIV, they get the right treatment on time, so that the babies don't get infected with HIV, and how they're distributing hundreds of millions of mosquito nets throughout the world for preventing malaria, through this OneWorld tool that's powered by Coupa to get the right medication on time. So that's millions and millions of lives, but the speed and ease of every single medication to get there, has an impact on the life of that person, and that's the story he's telling. >> This is so interesting, because it's so common for businesses to tell the common success story, and a lot of what Coupa shares of customers holding those big white cards with big numbers of what they're saving are very impactful. What was the idea behind the Spendsetters program, 'cause when I was reading a few of them in preparation to come here, it seems like it was a little bit more about the person and how that individual has facilitated transformation. Tell me about the concept-- >> It's a great point. There's two components to it, right. One is empirical, two is emotive. And if you look at both concepts, one of them is the empirical value that, yes, ultimately Coupa is about driving value, and that has to be as a company, has a capability of driving value to our customers. And that's the empirical value of you have driven so much saving, so much percentage of spend, and you know, millions of dollars, billions of dollars savings et cetera. Procter & Gamble, for example, $2.5 billion in savings. That's the empirical value. It's very clear, that's the value. But behind that is a person, and that is the emotive story of what is that person, what is the personal story, what have they gone through in their life, what's their, you know, nurture and nature, and how that's influenced them that's becoming, that made them into the great leader today, and that's the emotive stories we're trying to also tell on the Spendsetters site. So there's the value side of the story, and then there is the emotive side of the story, and the spendsetters.com is purely on telling the human stories, because behind every purchase order is a person, and we're telling the story of that person. >> So as we look at the changing role of the Chief Procurement Officer, the changing role of finance decision makers, not just here in the UK, and I know Coupa recently did a study that showed that 96% of UK financial decision makers said, "Hey, I don't have complete visibility over all my spend", so big opportunity there, but even from a transformation perspective, the Spendsetters examples, how is that showing that Coupa can fundamentally help a business not just change procurement, but have such wide lasting impacts? >> Yeah, I think ultimately, if you look at procurement, you know, for it to go as going from operation to strategic, you're just getting that seat at the table. And getting that seat at the table in any executive discussion is about first aligning to some strategic initiative that is important at that executive table. So more as we align these value stories and the value that procurement is driving, through these strategic initiatives that are important at the board level, at the executive level, the more the profile and the more the R-E-S-P-E-C-T, as we like to say, and get that seat at the table, and that's what this whole Spendsetters program is aiming to do is A, showcase the personal heroes, and B, showcase how they're telling stories that align to bigger level initiatives, that's getting them get that elevate their position and get that seat at the table. And that's what the plan is there. >> So, lots of growth. Second quarter results, I was taking a look at those, revenues up, billings are up, very high renewal rates. So from a customer satisfaction perspective, the data is there to show that Coupa is going in the right direction. From your perspective, how influential are your existing, your incumbent customers in helping prospective customers evaluate Coupa and go, this is the right decision for us. >> It's a great question. You know, I say we live in a peer-bound world, right, where it's really, we more and more, first of all, 80 to 90% of buyers' journeys are self directed, because buyers have more power than ever before, and second of all, anything we do within our personal lives as well as in business decisions, we rely more on peers and people we trust to help us make those decisions, right? From that perspective, our best sellers, the best sellers we have in this conference, are our customers. I just came from an executive luncheon, where we had 50% of the room was customers and 50% of the room was prospects, and we had our best sellers, not our salespeople, our customers talking to the prospects, in real, authentic conversations of what's value, what's their journey, what did they struggle with, and what are the lessons learned, and how did they get there. And those are really meaningful interactions that ultimately is going to make a prospect, influence a prospect on what decision they have to make. >> Absolutely. >> So that's very, very important from us, and then providing a platform for this authentic dialog and these authentic interactions. That's important for us. And also, I think, you know, ultimately in a SaaS business, the true measurement of success, I say is two things, right. One is what I call lifetime value, and two is the number of brand advocates. So the idea there if someone is staying with you longer and giving you lifetime value, and is shouting from the rooftop that I really love my interaction with this brand, then invariably you're driving value to them in a long term way. And that's really the true measure of success, and that's what excites us from our perspective. >> And is the foundation of that trust? >> The foundation of that is two things. It's trust based on value, right, and you've got to deliver value, and Rob has a great line where he talks about, it is not about customer satisfaction, it's about customer success. 'Cause many times a customer may be satisfied, may not really know what their success metrics really mean, but it's not about sometimes a customer may not be satisfied, but really be successful because you're driving the true metrics what is important to the customer. So once you get the value delivered, and do it in an open, authentic way, then, in that case, there's trust that build, and based on that trust, you earned that trust, and that becomes the foundation of the lifetime value. >> We were talking about, well, we, Rachel Botsman was talking about the importance of a brand, any brand, earning trust. A lot of times she gave that example in her keynote where she showed three brand logos, Uber, Facebook, and Amazon, and said, trust is so contextual and so subjective, but clap for which brand you trust the most. And it's so interesting when she started talking about, Facebook got the least, in fact Facebook got no applause at all, I was expecting a few folks (Chandar laughs) to maybe do some clapping, but Amazon being the clear winner, and I thought, yeah, I trust Amazon to deliver whatever it is that I buy when they say they're going to deliver it, and she said she trusts them to do the same, but, would you trust them to pay their taxes on time-- >> Chandar: Sure. >> So when she started talking about trust being subjective and contextual, it really kind of changes the whole dynamic. >> Chandar: It does. >> So that earned trust, but also the ability to reduce the risk that your customers are facing, whether it's overpaying suppliers or paying duplicate invoices, that trust risk balance seems pretty critical as well. >> Ti does, it does. It's an interesting perspective. I think because, in that case of Amazon, I think there's operational trust, that they're going to get the job done and deliver the whatever you ordered in one day with frame or two days with frames, this is operational trust. But is there a trust in the sense of purpose is where she was going with, right. And today for organizations, especially with the millennial crowd, as being customers as well as employees, the question is, you can get operational trust, but you also have a sense of purpose that they trust in, and have that be, and be authentic as an organization. And that's why is say it is not being, you talk about AI, as artificial intelligence, the real AI is authentic interactions. >> Lisa: Authentic interactions. >> And that's really the authenticity as a brand, being open, and acknowledge your failures but strive for excellence for success, and have this open platform with your customers, and always look towards adding value. I think that invariably, over time, creates this trust feeling that ultimately drives long term lifetime value for us. So that I think is the most important thing. >> Absolutely. So tell me again, which three customers are going to be on stage with you tomorrow sharing their stories? >> It's great, I have three. One, Procter & Gamble, a company that my mom knows about, my 86-year-old mom. So one of the greatest brands, so that's a great story about, again, they have a great business spend management story, but they're telling a story beyond the boundaries of business spend management and it's a fun story. And then we're going to have the Global Fund. Again, I told you, one of the world's largest financier of fighting HIV, malaria and AIDS. And we're going to have Telia, one of the largest telecommunications providers. >> Excellent. So really kind of showing the breadth of the technologies and the industries that Coupa helps to transform. >> And the breadth of the personalities, and the people behind that are driving all this change. >> Excellent, well Chandar, thank you for joining me on theCUBE. I wish we were going to be here tomorrow to see your keynote, but it sounds exciting and the Spendsetter program is certainly one that I think is quite differentiated in terms of telling those transformative stories that you said are both empirical and emotional. >> Yes, thank you Lisa, it's great to be here. >> Likewise. >> Great. >> For Chandar, I am Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE from Coupa Inspire London. Thanks for watching.

>>Live from Miami, Florida. It's the cube covering IBM's data and AI forum brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back to downtown Miami. Everybody. We're here at the Intercontinental hotel covering the IBM data AI form hashtag data AI forum. My name is Dave Volante and you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Ritika gunner is here. She's the vice president of data and AI expert labs and learning at IBM. Ritika, great to have you on. Again, always a pleasure to be here. Dave. I love interviewing you because you're a woman executive that said a lot of different roles at IBM. Um, you know, you've, we've talked about the AI ladder. You're climbing the IBM ladder and so it's, it's, it's, it's awesome to see and I love this topic. It's a topic that's near and dear to the cubes heart, not only women in tech, but women in AI. So great to have you. Thank you. So what's going on with the women in AI program? We're going to, we're going to cover that, but let me start with women in tech. It's an age old problem that we've talked about depending on, you know, what statistic you look at. 15% 17% of, uh, of, of, of the industry comprises women. We do a lot of events. You can see it. Um, let's start there. >>Well, obviously the diversity is not yet there, right? So we talk about women in technology, um, and we just don't have the representation that we need to be able to have. Now when it comes to like artificial intelligence, I think the statistic is 10 to 15% of the workforce today in AI is female. When you think about things like bias and ethicacy, having the diversity in terms of having male and female representation be equal is absolutely essential so that you're creating fair AI, unbiased AI, you're creating trust and transparency, set of capabilities that really have the diversity in backgrounds. >>Well, you work for a company that is as chairman and CEO, that's, that's a, that's a woman. I mean IBM generally, you know, we could see this stuff on the cube because IBM puts women on a, we get a lot of women customers that, that come on >>and not just because we're female, because we're capable. >>Yeah. Well of course. Right. It's just because you're in roles where you're spokespeople and it's natural for spokespeople to come on a forum like this. But, but I have to ask you, with somebody inside of IBM, a company that I could say the test to relative to most, that's pretty well. Do you feel that way or do you feel like even a company like IBM has a long way to go? >>Oh, um, I personally don't feel that way and I've never felt that to be an issue. And if you look at my peers, um, my um, lead for artificial intelligence, Beth Smith, who, you know, a female, a lot of my peers under Rob Thomas, all female. So I have not felt that way in terms of the leadership team that I have. Um, but there is a gap that exists, not necessarily within IBM, but in the community as a whole. And I think it goes back to you want to, you know, when you think about data science and artificial intelligence, you want to be able to see yourself in the community. And while there's only 10 to 15% of females in AI today, that's why IBM has created programs such as women AI that we started in June because we want strong female leaders to be able to see that there are, is great representation of very technical capable females in artificial intelligence that are doing amazing things to be able to transform their organizations and their business model. >>So tell me more about this program. I understand why you started it started in June. What does it entail and what's the evolution of this? >>So we started it in June and the idea was to be able to get some strong female leaders and multiple different organizations that are using AI to be able to change their companies and their business models and really highlight not just the journey that they took, but the types of transformations that they're doing and their organizations. We're going to have one of those events tonight as well, where we have leaders from Harley Davidson in Miami Dade County coming to really talk about not only what was their journey, but what actually brought them to artificial intelligence and what they're doing. And I think Dave, the reason that's so important is you want to be able to understand that those journeys are absolutely approachable. They're doable by any females that are out there. >>Talk about inherent bias. The humans are biased and if you're developing models that are using AI, there's going to be inherent bias in those models. So talk about how to address that and why is it important for more diversity to be injected into those models? >>Well, I think a great example is if you took the data sets that existed even a decade ago, um, for the past 50 years and you created a model that was to be able to predict whether to give loans to certain candidates or not, all things being equal, what would you find more males get these loans than females? The inherent data that exists has bias in it. Even from the history based on what we've had yet, that's not the way we want to be able to do things today. You want to be able to identify that bias and say all things being equal, it is absolutely important that regardless of whether you are a male or a female, you want to be able to give that loan to that person if they have all the other qualities that are there. And that's why being able to not only detect these things but have the diversity and the kinds of backgrounds of people who are building AI who are deploying this AI is absolutely critical. >>So for the past decade, and certainly in the past few years, there's been a light shined on this topic. I think, you know, we were at the Grace Hopper conference when Satya Nadella stuck his foot in his mouth and it said, Hey, it's bad karma for you know, if you feel like you're underpaid to go complain. And the women in the audience like, dude, no way. And he, he did the right thing. He goes, you know what, you're right. You know, any, any backtrack on that? And that was sort of another inflection point. But you talk about the women in, in AI program. I was at a CDO event one time. It was I and I, an IBM or had started the data divas breakfast and I asked, can I go? They go, yeah, you can be the day to dude. Um, which was, so you're seeing a lot of initiatives like this. My question is, are they having the impact that you would expect and that you want to have? >>I think they absolutely are. Again, I mean, I'll go back to, um, I'll give you a little bit of a story. Um, you know, people want to be able to relate and see that they can see themselves in these females leaders. And so we've seen cases now through our events, like at IBM we have a program called grow, which is really about helping our female lead female. Um, technical leaders really understand that they can grow, they can be nurtured, and they have development programs to help them accelerate where they need to be on their technical programs. We've absolutely seen a huge impact from that from a technology perspective. In terms of more females staying in technology wanting to go in the, in those career paths as another story. I'll, I'll give you kind of another kind of point of view. Um, Dave and that is like when you look at where it starts, it starts a lot earlier. >>So I have a young daughter who a year, year and a half ago when I was doing a lot of stuff with Watson, she would ask me, you know, not only what Watson's doing, but she would say, what does that mean for me mom? Like what's my job going to be? And if you think about the changes in technology and cultural shifts, technology and artificial intelligence is going to impact every job, every industry, every role that there is out there. So much so that I believe her job hasn't been invented yet. And so when you think about what's absolutely critical, not only today's youth, but every person out there needs to have a foundational understanding, not only in the three RS that you and I know from when we grew up have reading, writing and arithmetic, we need to have a foundational understanding of what it means to code. And you know, having people feel confident, having young females feel confident that they can not only do that, that they can be technical, that they can understand how artificial intelligence is really gonna impact society. And the world is absolutely critical. And so these types of programs that shed light on that, that help bridge that confidence is game changing. >>Well, you got kids, I >>got kids, I have daughters, you have daughter. Are they receptive to that? So, um, you know, I think they are, but they need to be able to see themselves. So the first time I sent my daughter to a coding camp, she came back and said, not for me mom. I said, why? Because she's like, all the boys, they're coding in their Minecraft area. Not something I can relate to. You need to be able to relate and see something, develop that passion, and then mix yourself in that diverse background where you can see the diversity of backgrounds. When you don't have that diversity and when you can't really see how to progress yourself, it becomes a blocker. So as she started going to grow star programs, which was something in Austin where young girls coded together, it became something that she's really passionate about and now she's Python programming. So that's just an example of yes, you need to be able to have these types of skills. It needs to start early and you need to have types of programs that help enhance that journey. >>Yeah, and I think you're right. I think that that is having an impact. My girls who code obviously as a some does some amazing work. My daughters aren't into it. I try to send them to coder camp too and they don't do it. But here's my theory on that is that coding is changing and, and especially with artificial intelligence and cognitive, we're a software replacing human skills. Creativity is going to become much, much more important. My daughters are way more creative than my sons. I shouldn't say that, but >>I think you just admitted that >>they, but, but in a way they are. I mean they've got amazing creativity, certainly more than I am. And so I see that as a key component of how coding gets done in the future, taking different perspectives and then actually codifying them. Your, your thoughts on that. >>Well there is an element of understanding like the outcomes that you want to generate and the outcomes really is all about technology. How can you imagine the art of the possible with technology? Because technology alone, we all know not useful enough. So understanding what you do with it, just as important. And this is why a lot of people who are really good in artificial intelligence actually come from backgrounds that are philosophy, sociology, economy. Because if you have the culture of curiosity and the ability to be able to learn, you can take the technology aspects, you can take those other aspects and blend them together. So understanding the problem to be solved and really marrying that with the technological aspects of what AI can do. That's how you get outcomes. >>And so we've, we've obviously talking in detail about women in AI and women in tech, but it's, there's data that shows that diversity drives value in so many different ways. And it's not just women, it's people of color, it's people of different economic backgrounds, >>underrepresented minorities. Absolutely. And I think the biggest thing that you can do in an organization is have teams that have that diverse background, whether it be from where they see the underrepresented, where they come from, because those differences in thought are the things that create new ideas that really innovate, that drive, those business transformations that drive the changes in the way that we do things. And so having that difference of opinion, having healthy ways to bring change and to have conflict, absolutely essential for progress to happen. >>So how did you get into the tech business? What was your background? >>So my background was actually, um, a lot in math and science. And both of my parents were engineers. And I have always had this unwavering, um, need to be able to marry business and the technology side and really figure out how you can create the art of the possible. So for me it was actually the creativity piece of it where you could create something from nothing that really drove me to computer science. >>Okay. So, so you're your math, uh, engineer and you ended up in CS, is that right? >>Science. Yeah. >>Okay. So you were coded. Did you ever work as a programmer? >>Absolutely. My, my first years at IBM were all about coding. Um, and so I've always had a career where I've coded and then I've gone to the field and done field work. I've come back and done development and development management, gone back to the field and kind of seen how that was actually working. So personally for me, being able to create and work with clients to understand how they drive value and having that back and forth has been a really delightful part. And the thing that drives me, >>you know, that's actually not an uncommon path for IBM. Ours, predominantly male IBM, or is in the 50 sixties and seventies and even eighties. Who took that path? They started out programming. Um, I just think, trying to think of some examples. I know Omar para, who was the CIO of Aetna international, he started out coding at IBM. Joe Tucci was a programmer at IBM. He became CEO of EMC. It was a very common path for people and you took the same path. That's kind of interesting. Why do you think, um, so many women who maybe maybe start in computer science and coding don't continue on that path? And what was it that sort of allowed you to break through that barrier? >>No, I'm not sure why most women don't stay with it. But for me, I think, um, you know, I, I think that every organization today is going to have to be technical in nature. I mean, just think about it for a moment. Technology impacts every part of every type of organization and the kinds of transformation that happens. So being more technical as leaders and really understanding the technology that allows the kinds of innovations and business for informations is absolutely essential to be able to see progress in a lot of what we're doing. So I think that even general CXOs that you see today have to be more technically acute to be able to do their jobs really well and marry those business outcomes with what it fundamentally means to have the right technology backbone. >>Do you think a woman in the white house would make a difference for young people? I mean, part of me says, yeah, of course it would. Then I say, okay, well some examples you can think about Margaret Thatcher in the UK, Angela Merkel, and in Germany it's still largely male dominated cultures, but I dunno, what do you think? Maybe maybe that in the United States would be sort of the, >>I'm not a political expert, so I wouldn't claim to answer that, but I do think more women in technology, leadership role, CXO leadership roles is absolutely what we need. So, you know, politics aside more women in leadership roles. Absolutely. >>Well, it's not politics is gender. I mean, I'm independent, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, right? Absolutely. Oh yeah. Well, companies, politics. I mean you certainly see women leaders in a, in Congress and, and the like. Um, okay. Uh, last question. So you've got a program going on here. You have a, you have a panel that you're running. Tell us more about. >>Well this afternoon we'll be continuing that from women leaders in AI and we're going to do a panel with a few of our clients that really have transformed their organizations using data and artificial intelligence and they'll talk about like their backgrounds in history. So what does it actually mean to come from? One of, one of the panelists actually from Miami Dade has always come from a technical background and the other panelists really etched in from a non technical background because she had a passion for data and she had a passion for the technology systems. So we're going to go through, um, how these females actually came through to the journey, where they are right now, what they're actually doing with artificial intelligence in their organizations and what the future holds for them. >>I lied. I said, last question. What is, what is success for you? Cause I, I would love to help you achieve that. That objective isn't, is it some metric? Is it awareness? How do you know it when you see it? >>Well, I think it's a journey. Success is not an endpoint. And so for me, I think the biggest thing I've been able to do at IBM is really help organizations help businesses and people progress what they do with technology. There's nothing more gratifying than like when you can see other organizations and then what they can do, not just with your technology, but what you can bring in terms of expertise to make them successful, what you can do to help shape their culture and really transform. To me, that's probably the most gratifying thing. And as long as I can continue to do that and be able to get more acknowledgement of what it means to have the right diversity ingredients to do that, that success >>well Retika congratulations on your success. I mean, you've been an inspiration to a number of people. I remember when I first saw you, you were working in group and you're up on stage and say, wow, this person really knows her stuff. And then you've had a variety of different roles and I'm sure that success is going to continue. So thanks very much for coming on the cube. You're welcome. All right, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break, we're here covering the IBM data in a AI form from Miami right back.

>> Announcer: From the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada, it's theCUBE. Covering Coupa Inspire 2019. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin on the ground at Coupa Inspire '19 from the Vegas. I'm very pleased to welcome not Bono, not Sting, it's Chandar, the CMO of Coupa. Chandar, welcome to theCUBE. >> Lisa, thank you, it's great to be here today. >> This is a really cool event. Procurement is sexy. >> It is sexy. >> It can be so incredibly transformative to any organization. I loved how the last two days, what you guys have done is a great job of articulating Coupa's value in procurement, invoicing, payments, expense, through the voices of your customers and I think there's no better brand value that you can get. >> Sure, absolutely. >> Tell us a little bit about your role as the CMO of Coupa and marketing in a fast-growing company with a product that people might go, "I haven't heard of that, what is that again?" >> Yeah, it's a good question. I think if I look at it, my role is at Coupa, especially, for Coupa, what's interesting about it, as you said, is that every company makes money, every company spends money. So, invariably, Coupa can be used across a set of different companies. One from the Golden State Warriors to Procter & Gamble to the Lukemia & Lymphoma Society. Across the board. And then, from our perspective, holistically, we're looking at business, but managed from different aspects of spend. You said procurement was in expenses. So, my role is to build a marketing engine to get the flywheel effect of first you drive awareness. All marketing starts with awareness and you said people haven't heard of it. And so, to first to drive awareness in a very thoughtful way to the right contextual community we want to go after. And, two, drive acquisition, we'll drive close synergies between sales and marketing to ultimately drive pipeline and win rates and ultimately deals. And then, very importantly in today's world, is to drive the advocacy and get your most passionate customers to evangelize about the brand, so that you create the flywheel effect of awareness, acquisition, and advocacy. And, that's really what my role today is. >> And, I love how I read an article where you call that the stairway to marketing heaven. So, I thought, I wonder if you're a guitar guy, but you're right. It's how to drive awareness, but in a meaningful, thoughtful way. Especially today, with all all the technology, we wake up with it, right? Our phone is our alarm clock. We are bombarded by ads. If we're on Instagram, following our favorite celebrities or whatnot and it's scary when they have the right context, but it has to be thoughtful. We need to know our audience. So, you describe this stairway to marketing heaven, as you just mentioned, it's awareness, it's acquisition, which is key. But, I feel like a lot of companies don't forget the advocacy part, but they don't invest enough in it because that's the best salesperson for your technology, is the people that are using it successfully, right? >> Totally. Yeah, so, in fact, there was a study about a couple of years which looked at how balanced the boat is in terms of spending in presale versus post-sale. And, it's interesting that 87% of B2B marketing spend was presale. In other words, only 13% of people were investing in retention marketing, adoption mastery, customer marketing, and this is what advocacy marketing. And, in today's world, that doesn't work because you got to balance the boat because, to your point, you're getting in a peer-bond world where your existing customers are your best sellers. And, prospects who have all the buying power today are looking to your existing customers to guide them in their purchasing decisions. So, as an organization, if you balance the boat, then you're going to get the flywheel effect going for you in terms of driving the right advocacy across all channels. Just not your own channel if you earn channels to ultimately drive that acquisition going. >> Do you think that's actually more valuable? 'Cause it's one thing to have on your .com site, your social media sites, all these great things about your technologies, etc., coming from customers or from product experts, from influencers. Talk about the value. As technology advances so much and we are influenced by so many other channels, the value of the earned channel and that peer-to-peer relationship. >> Yeah, I think, as I say, that every mom says her baby is good-looking. But, in software, not every baby is really good-looking. Which means, if you take that analogy and extend it, if you're coming to your own channel, invariably, you're going to see some great customer videos about your product, you're going to see some great endorsements and testimonials, you're going to see some great quotes about your product. The reality, there's no bad news about your product on your own website, on your own channel. But, the reality is there are some, some people who might have different opinions. If you go to Glassdoor, no company gets a five on Glassdoor. And, if you take the same thing and extend it to earned channels for advocacy, folks like G2 Crowd, TrustRadius, and B2B, for example, are becoming more relevant today than before because two things. One is 85% of our customers' journey is self-directed. >> Lisa: That much? >> That much and Forrester has anywhere from 60 to 80, but reality is whether you're buying a car or you're buying Coupa. Today, a customer is discovering more journeys. And, in that process, they are looking to more of these earned channels as validation of which ones to go after than just your own channels. So, that's why we got to balance the boat and distribute our advocacy spend dollars across both your own channels and your earned channels. And, that's really important for you and the flywheel will pay off for you over time from that perspective. >> It will and that seems like a lot of the things that Suzy Irwin was talking about to the audience earlier. That's common sense. Why is it that you see these marketing budgets that are so heavily weighted towards just getting awareness, getting customers acquired, and then not thinking about retention marketing account based marketing. >> I'll tell you why. I think any smart CMO will conceptually agree with you. Nobody's going to say, of course, this is not important for me to get advocacy. The challenge comes in in terms of how that marketing department is measured. What gets measured gets funding at the end of the day. >> Lisa: That's a good point. >> And, reality is a lot of these B2B companies are still measuring marketing based on, what's the pipeline you're driving and what's at the top of the funnel metrics that you're driving? In reality, that's a little bit of a skewed thing because then if that's what you're being measured at the board level, at the executive level, then guess what? All your funding is going to go towards that. But, really, the true measurement of marketing, one, is about, yes, you have to get pipeline. You have to influence win rates at the bottom of the funnel and that's where product marketing comes in. But, as importantly, you have to look at the number of brand advocates you create and lifetime value of a customer. >> Yes, CLV, yes. >> And, that's really, really, customer lifetime value is so important because in a SaaS business, ultimately, the Mufasa metric, I'm a Lion King fan. The Mufasa metric is really lifetime value because if a customer stays longer with you, pays you more, and is shouting from the rooftop, then, invariably, that SaaS business is doing well. And, that's why you have to balance the boat in terms of post-advocacies, post-acquisition spend into advocacy, as much as you've done in pre-acquisition. >> When you came into Coupa a couple of years ago, have you been able to shift those budgets because you're able to demonstrate the value that that advocacy piece generates with the flywheel? >> Absolutely and I have a very progressive-thinking CEO who's partners with me on this too. So, we've been absolutely able to do that. In fact, what we're trying to do at the end of the day and most software companies, the real goal should be creating a tribe. In technology, you have to create a tribe to be a titan. And, it's just not about the capability, it's about the community. And, that's really what we're trying to do at Coupa is to create the tribal community feeling. So, if the community is bigger than the brand, it is about the community itself and learning, sharing, and growing with each other and being successful. And, we're just fostering that. So, from that perspective, if you look at this conference and the investment we're making here, some of the programs we're doing in terms of advocacy, what we call spend sellers, etc., is all about that community tribal feeling and go establish that. To use some inspiration from our consumer brands, if you really think about it, people don't buy what they want. People buy what they want to be. So, let me give you what I mean by that. What I want could be a bike. It could be any motorbike, but what I want to be could be part of a very special community and that's why Harley Davidson is successful. What I want could be any stationary bike today, but what I want to be is part of some cool community like Peloton. That's why Peloton is successful. So, similarly for us, what I want could be some spend management software, but what I want to be is part of this community, this cool club, and that's the feeling we're trying to create in the post-acquisition cycle. >> I love that you said that because you talked about that this morning and I loved how you had the word community on the slide and then broke that out into communication unity. And, one of the senses that I got yesterday when-- >> Chandar: Rob was talking about it. >> Yeah, when Rob kicked off everything is this is a very collaborative community. We think about that in terms in terms even like a developer community or something like that. But, Coupa is now managing $1.2 trillion of spend through the platform that every other business that's using Coupa gets to benefit from. It's customer-centric, it's supplier-centric, but it's about applying the right technologies, AI, machine learning, to all this data, so everybody benefits. >> That's right and one of the interesting aspects of community building is one aspect of community building is that Marc Benioff had a great, evangelistic marketing was a way of community building. He would come in and really evangelize and this is where we're going and you all need to come with us. When I was at Marketo, it was interesting. Community building was through more educational marketing and doing it through this, I'm going to educate you through though leadership. Another good way of community building is through product intelligence, which is community intelligence. So, collectively, the sum of all parts are smarter than the parts themselves. And, Rob has a great line, which says, "None of us is as smart as all of us." And, the fundamental community intelligence offering is based on this first principle. So, example, if I'm the community of Coupa customers, the next customer is smarter than the previous customer because the collective intelligence grew, which means I can then go benchmark it myself. I gave an example this morning of USO, the company that provides services to the United States troops. And, when Rick Quaintance at USO benchmarked himself using community intelligence, versus the rest of the community, he realizes that his invoice cycle times are seven times lower. So, that kind of intelligence is extremely beneficial and invaluable to companies. So, that's the value of the community, is providing the collective intelligence. Waze is a great consumer example. Those of us who use Waze for traffic know that it's all community driven and each one of us is smarter because we're collectively using it. It's the same concept in applying that to B2B software. >> So, as we see, you mentioned the over 80% of the buying decision is self-directed whether we're buying a car or Coupa software. Did Coupa foresee that in the last decade to see we're going to have to go to a more community-driven collaboration because the consumer of any thing, any product or service, is going to be so empowered 'cause that's a part of the Coupa foundation. >> It is. >> Lisa: Which, we don't see a lot in companies that are 10 plus years old. >> Yeah, and credit to Rob for his vision for this. It's because I think early part of the company, he wrote into the contracts that the company can benefit. Collectively, every company can benefit by being part of this community. And, the fact is data's aggregated, abstracted, there's no information that is sensitive, etc. But, the fact is we all can collectively benefit through it. That was a great vision of Rob and early people and that's benefited us because the benefit is really over scale and time. Now, your $1.2 trillion, it is really statistically significant in each different industry to get that intelligence. And, that is one of the other reasons we launched our business spend index. It's called spendindex.com. Where we can use the billions of dollars spent in the community to provide a leading indicator of economic growth based on current business spend sentiment. You think of ADP as this payroll, it's called ADP payroll thing that comes out and the gross domestic product report comes out. Those tend to be rear-view mirror lagging indicators. But, as we're using community-based intelligence to provide a windshield, a leading indicator of where the economy is going. So, there's so many different use cases. Benefiting based on spend you're doing as well as where the economy is going and all this is based on the intelligence. >> It's so powerful because, to your point, you're not looking behind. >> Chandar: It's the windshield. >> Exactly, able to be looking forward. So, with all the announcements and the great things that have come out with the AWS expansion, what you guys are doing with Coupa Pay. I was shocked to learn the percentages of businesses that are still writing paper checks. Or, the fact that a lot of companies have 10 plus banks that they're working with. There's still so much manual processes. You must just be, the future is so bright, you got to wear shades with Coupa. But, what excites you about what you guys have announced the last coupe of days and the feedback that you're hearing from your tribe? >> I think there's two kinds of things. One is continue to set the innovation agenda for the industry. And, really, you have to look at every customer on their unique journey of maturity and maturation, so we have a very thoughtful, what we call, maturity index, The business spend management index. Whereas, you are seeing some of these customers, for example, you mentioned, may be in the first stage of this maturity, where, for them, it's just getting automation and going from paper to paperless could be the first step. But, some other customers might say, "I've gotten there, "but I want to get the next level of sophistication "to orchestrate these business spend processes." So, what's exciting for us in the feedback is we're creating product capability across this maturation journey for our customers to make them successful at each of those places. And, Coupa Pay is one example of that. Whereas, some of the other pieces we talked about, we announced about some of the community offerings that we did also is on that. So, that's one exciting piece. The other exciting piece that customers tell us at this conference is, "Foster platforms for us "to engage with each other, learn from each other, "share from each other, and grow with each other." So, even stuff that Rob talked about, which is sourced together. This concept of customers coming together to drive a sourcing process and, again, the collective intelligence in the community, that, we're getting very, very positive feedback from that perspective. And, ultimately, Rob has a really good saying that, "It is not about customer satisfaction. "It is about customer success." That's a delineation there. A customer could be very satisfied with you, but they may not be necessarily successful. And, we say, it's not about satisfaction. It's about success. And, by creating this innovation cycle and then having a post-implementation process that's getting true value, that's truly how we drive customer success. >> And, something that I've heard over and over as I've talked to a number of your customers yesterday and today is how much they're feeling Coupa is listening. Their feedback is being incorporated. They're actually influencing the development of the technology and that was loud and clear the last two days. >> Yeah, I think there is, Rob talked about the number of features that are being influenced by the community and we have these-- >> 300 plus in the last 12 months. >> Yes, 300 plus in the last 12 months. And, there's this concept of two ears, one mouth. And, listen, learn, and innovate and that's the philosophy here. But, it's a right mix of listening to customers, learning from them, and getting the right input from them for driving innovation, as well as having strategic vision on where this market is going and having the right mix of those to provide the capability to customers. >> Wow, you're on a rocket ship. Chandar, it was great to have you on theCUBE. You'll have to come back. >> Yes, Lisa, absolutely, I'll come back and it was a pleasure being here. Awesome. >> Awesome, thank you so much. For Chandar, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching theCUBE from Coupa Inspire '19. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem, Barker's >> Hey, welcome back to the Cube. Lisa Martin with steam in a man's way are Day one of our coverage of Cisco lie from San Diego. We're gonna be here for three days of coverage, but a great day so far. And we're pleased to welcome back one of our Cube alumni, Kenny Christiansen, the practice director from Insight with the Cloud and Data Center transformation group. Kitt, welcome back. >> Thank you for a little while. >> It has been a little while. So give our audience a little overview of inside your partnership with Cisco and some of the history of how you got to Insite. >> Um, yeah, so you remember US. Data like way were smaller company than we are now. Focus on Cloud Davidson transformation. We've talked it della vincey and see events. Things like that way We're Cisco partner for about 10 years and recently we were acquired and we did with name sounds like cloud and Data Center transformation. We've talked about cloud in the channel and all these other things um inside acquired us Insight has kind of four major service solution sets, if you would. Some people look at them is a supply chain company, and it's a great large supply chain company, Microsoft Largest global partner. Some people understand it for the device in use devices that's called connected workforce. Each of these air pretty big businesses, you know, compared to what we are. What was Data link is now what's called Cloud David Senate transformation. Um, so we're helping people with the journey to the cloud and the hybrid cloud and all that other stuff. Francisco right, Dead center in the middle of that and then the 4th 1 is really excited to go diddle diddle innovation. And that's a couple of companies Blue Metal, Cardinal, etcetera again 1,000 people. Microsoft I'll Tee and aye, aye, partner of the year. So all of that is a pretty large channel organization. If you want. >> That's great stuff can. And we always. We love to talk to the channel as the folks on Wall Street to It's like you know we do. A channel check is okay. You know, Cisco's got a few areas that have, you know, stronger growth in the market overall, security's doing well. A few other spaces that are, you know, growing faster overall than the market helping grow where we're Cisco's going. So give us the reality. What's happening with your customers? What's driving, you know, since the most growth in your business. And you know where is where is Cisco kind of leading the pack? >> So we're doing really well a system, and I don't know if it's because we're helping clients build solutions that truly lied to business outcomes. We're not order takers, so we're actually moving up. We're now 54th largest partner. We're growing well, high single digits growth, which is pretty phenomenal and such a big number. We're talking $1,000,000,000 now and growing that level on DH. There's a number of reasons, you know, some of it is there's a lot of great technology and get into some of those way. See, the economy is being pretty good. Not bad. Yet you know everybody for it. Worried about what might happen. You mentioned security. We could get into a little bit of that. That's driving a lot of network refreshed and stuff like that. Um, you know, a little bit of Inter company, you know that we're getting our stuff together. So this large company with 15,000 customers, you know, acquires a company with 2,000 customers, and now we're getting introduced into the 15,000 with less friction. So that's helping us. And that's helping Francisco business. >> So here we are at Cisco Live, 30th time that they've done a customer partner. Event network has not only changed dramatically since their first event in 89 which was called networkers, I believe. But networking technology has also massively changed. You mentioned security, and now in this multi cloud world, no longer can you just put a firewall around Data Senate, right? Obviously, that the work we have, this core cloud edge very a Morpheus environments proliferation of mobile of mobile data traversing the network's talk to us about when you're talking with customers who need to transform their data centers. Where do you start from? A networking conversation perspective, where automation comes in where security comes in, >> you know, a lot of the cloud names. Their transformation says to me the edge of the network, you know, converts, infrastructure, stuff of that that's on the edge. The network security guys, which I'm not. You know, I work with them very closely, but there we almost separated, sells out from the data center. Networking security. But security's in the end to your point, right? I've got software to find access. I've got mobile access points I've got, you know, te Trae Shin. I've got you know, all of these products that are helping people that in the past they were just patching holes in the dyke, you know? Hey, this happened. Let's put this off for product. This happened. Let's put this in. We actually built a security practice like the last three or four years ago. It's growing. You know, the number of people that are, whether it's regulation compliance. You know, I got some real problem. I think I've got a problem and I don't know what it is. Our ability to come back and sit down and say, Let's evaluate what your situation is. So I was talking to the networking guys, so wow, enterprise network is up way up. What's driving that I need to transform or is that you know what isn't there like a lot of times it's something our long security that's making them step back and reevaluate. And then sometimes that draft transfer translates into entire network refresh. >> So you mess in Cisco te Trae Shin? That's one I've heard a number of times having some growth. What? What else? What are some of the, you know, hot products out there in your >> eyes based software to find FT. When hefty access. >> So one of the things I just don't understand Cisco actually has a few solutions and some of those areas any specific products that you call out or, uh, you know, the >> enterprising, that working I wouldn't go through each and every individual one. I think this is my view of the layman, right, Because I'm the data center guy and here's the security guy hears them working. Got I think Francisco started acquiring all these security companies three years ago and you watched it. It looked like a patchwork quilt and said, This doesn't fit together now. It fits together. That story is really solid. And so we've got clients that have had the luxury of either salmon. I'm going to do a refresh because I don't want to keep plugging hole, and maybe my technology was ready for it anyway because there's a lot of reasons to refresh right. My technology do digital transformation. I need to get my network ready for Io ti etcetera. But I keep hearing security over and over, right. I've got compliance and regulation and all of this other stuff. >> But in your core space, the data center world, you know, and any products that are kind of leading the leading the charge right now, >> you know, one of the things that's happening in data center from a Cisco perspective because their babies, right, 10 years old in data centers, they didn't really have data center before that we were there at the beginning. And that's really how CDC t built our David Senate practice. So you know, when you talk multi cloud at the end of the day, even if I'm cloud first, I'm going to end up with some of these mission critical work clothes. They might be boring the running the company right there, not the innovative Deva Coyote. I think that seems cool running the company, and that's still a converged or a hyper converse play. And some of those you know, there's a lot of opportunities. We've been talking about all day with the Sisko be used. You know, some of those are ready for refresh, right? So there's a great opportunity that's going and say, OK, what's next? You know, we've added, you know, the latest server technology. We've had all these things in the server technology, obviously all flashing the storage technologies in all of that. So that's you. And then, you know, Cisco continues to innovate in data center solutions with things like Hyper flex, which were, you know, talked a little bit about getting started off a little slow, because again, just like they weren't servers. Why are they here? Why are they in hyper converts like get it? And now that product has slowly improved and improved and improved, and we're seeing tremendous growth there. And I think luxury they have on a data center solution is that some of the other guys have to do. Ah or hey, I'm the leading hyper converts technology. But it's me or everybody else, right? Um, and then this goes in and write that I could connect those things together. >> So let's talk about some customer examples you can feel free to anonymous days. I'm seeing a smile on your face when you come into an organization, whether it's 100 year old bank or it's a one of the cloud orders, maybe a smaller, more nimble organization that needs to undergo transformation did isn't a transformation. What was the conversation like with respect to helping them take all of these disparate, presumably to sprint solutions, whether they're 10 15 different security solutions, how does insight come in and help them? I want to say integrate, but almost plug these things in together to extract value and help them make sure that what they're implementing, much technology perspective is necessary and also an accelerator of their business. >> Yeah, lose a lot there. So we have this, you know. So a year ago, everybody wanted to talk about Cloud, and then they had the security guys. But now you have a lot of change. Agents of transformation, their title right? And so we have this belief you're not going to digitally transform Now. There are people that are born digital, but companies that were buying Cisco 10 years ago need to go through a digital transformation, and you can't go through a digital transformation and tell you have a data center transformation, wherein I transformation. So we've done studies. What slows people down? What makes he failed legacy stuff? Security concerns. I mean, these are the top three things, right? Budget. I was just running the pretty and so we start there that says, Where do you want to get to? And then most of it is Let's understand what you have, what? Your objectives, ours, an organization. I want to get to this. I want to get to that Well, before we start talking about technologies and it's very it's very services or even write. I can't just go in there and throw your bomb and say, This is going to fix your problem because everybody's different. So it is very custom and very services, or >> you're saying >> I was just going to say It's a pattern I've seen quite a bit for the last couple of years is step one is modernized the platform and then step two. You can worry about your data and application story on top of that in that multi cloud world. >> Step one, admit you have a problem. Yeah. So we actually did a study? Yeah. You know, we do this All right? Well, why does everybody keep stalling? Why we've been stuck in this. Nobody's refreshing things and stuff like that. Well, there's a lot of new technology. They don't get it. But, you know, do you want a digitally transform? Understand what you need to do, but we ask questions like rate your infrastructure just raided B minus across a lot of large companies. That was what the grade they gave themselves. So there's a lot of opportunities. Say, Okay, where do you wanna be? Yeah, and where do we >> start? 90% of people think they are above average drivers, so >> drivers, but they think they have a B minus in infrastructure and is like to consider that a problem. >> So once you as we wrap here in the next minute or so, once you get them to admit, yeah, there's there's problems here that incite other partners come and come in and improve data center transformation, modernizing that infrastructure, but it's got to be concurrent, was starting to modernize and transform other areas, right? >> Absolutely so you know, there's so many places you could start. Sometimes you just go and say, Well, what's your appetite Every once in a while, you get somebody who's ready to go through an entire transformational process, you know, $20,000,000 arm or whatever, and we get those opportunities. Those are awesome. Now we get to start back and figure out where you want to be and how to get there most efficiently. A lot of people have to pick up juice. You know? What's your concern right now on DH? So we'll help them figure that out again. It could be security. It could be. You know how many people we have over 1,000 enterprise customers around X equal two thousand eight? That's a problem, right? Because that's in the support within a year, right? That's a problem. That's, you know, opportunity. So they are still trying to figure out these things and then, ah, picture on where I want to get to what you kind of always said. And that's where that digital innovation group they've got all these Aye aye projects. And as we sit here and talk about those things that kind of born in the cloud, but they're common part of the infrastructure. It was easy to give the GPO in the cloud, but I'm going to have to start. So we actually have all the latest Cisco technology and storage technology of A I stuff in our labs and stuff like that. So there's a lot going on is our CEO said would say, It's a really exciting time to be in this business. >> It sounds like it. I wish we had more time to start digging through there, but you'll have to come back. Okay. All right. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you >> for student a man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube live day one of our coverage of Sisqo live from San Diego. Thanks for watching.