(upbeat music) >> Welcome, everyone, to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. And this episode two of season two is called "Data as Code," the ongoing series covering exciting new startups in the AWS ecosystem. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Today, we're excited to be joined by Jon Dahl, who is the co-founder and CEO of MUX, a hot new startup building cloud video for developers, video with data. John, great to see you. We did an interview on theCube Conversation. Went into big detail of the awesomeness of your company and the trend that you're on. Welcome back. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> So, video is everywhere, and video for pivot to video, you hear all these kind of terms in the industry, but now more than ever, video is everywhere and people are building with it, and it's becoming part of the developer experience in applications. So people have to stand up video into their code fast, and data is code, video is data. So you guys are specializing this. Take us through that dynamic. >> Yeah, so video clearly is a growing part of how people are building applications. We see a lot of trends of categories that did not involve video in the past making a major move towards video. I think what Peloton did five years ago to the world of fitness, that was not really a big category. Now video fitness is a huge thing. Video in education, video in business settings, video in a lot of places. I think Marc Andreessen famously said, "Software is eating the world" as a pretty, pretty good indicator of what the internet is actually doing to the economy. I think there's a lot of ways in which video right now is eating software. So categories that we're not video first are becoming video first. And that's what we help with. >> It's not obvious to like most software developers when they think about video, video industries, it's industry shows around video, NAB, others. People know, the video folks know what's going on in video, but when you start to bring it mainstream, it becomes an expectation in the apps. And it's not that easy, it's almost a provision video is hard for a developer 'cause you got to know the full, I guess, stack of video. That's like low level and then kind of just basic high level, just play something. So, in between, this is a media stack kind of dynamic. Can you talk about how hard it is to build video for developers? How is it going to become easier? >> Yeah, I mean, I've lived this story for too long, maybe 13 years now, when I first build my first video stack. And, you know, I'll sometimes say, I think it's kind of a miracle every time a video plays on the internet because the internet is not a medium designed for video. It's been hijacked by video, video is 70% of internet traffic today in an unreliable, sort of untrusted network space, which is totally different than how television used to work or cable or things like that. So yeah, so video is hard because there's so many problems from top to bottom that need to be solved to make video work. So you have to worry about video compression encoding, which is a complicated topic in itself. You have to worry about delivering video around the world at scale, delivering it at low cost, at low latency, with good performance, you have to worry about devices and how every device, Android, iOS, web, TVs, every device handles video differently and so there's a lot of work there. And at the end of the day, these are kind of unofficial standards that everyone's using. So one of the miracles is like, if you want to watch a video, somehow you have to get like Apple and Google to agree on things, which is not always easy. And so there's just so many layers of complexity that are behind it. I think one way to think about it is, if you want to put an image online, you just put an image online. And if you want to put video online, you build complex software, and that's the exact problem that MUX was started to help solve. >> It's interesting you guys have almost creating a whole new category around video infrastructure. And as you look at, you mentioned stack, video stack. I'm looking at a market where the notion of a media stack is developing, and you're seeing these verticals having similar dynamics with cloud. And if you go back to the early days of cloud computing, what was the developer experience or entrepreneurial experience, you had to actually do a lot of stuff before you even do anything, provision a server. And this has all kind of been covered in great detail in the glory of Agile and whatnot. It was expensive, and you had that actually engineer before you could even stand up any code. Now you got video that same thing's happening. So the developers have two choices, go do a bunch of stuff complex, building their own infrastructure, which is like building a data center, or lean in on MUX and say, "Hey, thank you for doing all that years of experience building out the stacks to take that hard part away," but using APIs that they have. This is a developer focused problem that you guys are solving. >> Yeah, that's right. my last company was a company called Zencoder, that was an API to video encoding. So it was kind of an API to a small part of what MUX does today, just one of those problems. And I think the thing that we got right at Zencoder, that we're doing again here at MUX, was building four developers first. So our number one persona is a software developer. Not necessarily a video expert, just we think any developer should be able to build with video. It shouldn't be like, yeah, got to go be a specialist to use this technology, because it should become just of the internet. Video should just be something that any developer can work with. So yeah, so we build for developers first, which means we spend a lot of time thinking about API design, we spend a lot of time thinking about documentation, transparent pricing, the right features, great support and all those kind of things that tend to be characteristics of good developer companies. >> Tell me about the pipe lining of the products. I'm a developer, I work for a company, my boss is putting pressure on me. We need video, we have all this library, it's all stacking up. We hired some people, they left. Where's the video, we've stored it somewhere. I mean, it's a nightmare, right? So I'm like, okay, I'm cloud native, I got an API. I need to get my product to market fast, 'cause that is what Agile developers want. So how do you describe that acceleration for time to market? You mentioned you guys are API first, video first. How do these customers get their product into the market as fast as possible? >> Yeah, well, I mean the first thing we do is we put what we think is probably on average, three to four months of hard engineering work behind a single API call. So if you want to build a video platform, we tell our customers like, "Hey, you can do that." You probably need a team, you probably need video experts on your team so hire them or train them. And then it takes several months just to kind of to get video flowing. One API call at MUX gives you on-demand video or live video that works at scale, works around the world with good performance, good reliability, a rich feature set. So maybe just a couple specific examples, we worked with Robin Hood a few years ago to bring video into their newsfeed, which was hugely successful for them. And they went from talking to us for the first time to a big launch in, I think it was three months, but the actual code time there was like really short. I want to say they had like a proof of concept up and running in a couple days, and then the full launch in three months. Another customer of ours, Bandcamp, I think switched from a legacy provider to MUX in two weeks in band. So one of the big advantages of going a little bit higher in the abstraction layer than just building it yourself is that time to market. >> Talk about this notion of video pipeline 'cause I know I've heard people I talk about, "Hey, I just want to get my product out there. I don't want to get stuck in the weeds on video pipeline." What does that mean for folks that aren't understanding the nuances of video? >> Yeah, I mean, it's all the steps that it takes to publish video. So from ingesting the video, if it's live video from making sure that you have secure, reliable ingest of that live feed potentially around the world to the transcoding, which is we talked a little bit about, but it is a, you know, on its own is a massively complicated problem. And doing that, well, doing that well is hard. Part of the reason it's hard is you really have to know where you're publishing too. And you might want to transcode video differently for different devices, for different types of content. You know, the pipeline typically would also include all of the workflow items you want to do with the video. You want to thumbnail a video, you want clip, create clips of the video, maybe you want to restream the video to Facebook or Twitter or a social platform. You want to archive the video, you want it to be available for downloads after an event. If it's just a, if it's a VOD upload, if it's not live in the first place. You have all those things and you might want to do simulated live with the video. You might want to actually record something and then play it back as a live stream. So, the pipeline Ty typically refers to everything from the ingest of the video to the time that the bits are delivered to a device. >> You know, I hear a lot of people talking about video these days, whether it's events, training, just want peer to peer experience, video is powerful, but customers want to own their own platform, right? They want to have the infrastructure as a service. They kind of want platform as a service, this is cloud talk now, but they want to have their own capability to build it out. This allows them to get what they want. And so you see this, like, is it SaaS? Is it platform? People want customization? So kind of the general purpose video solution does it really exist or doesn't? I mean, 'cause this is the question. Can I just buy software and work or is it going to be customized always? How do you see that? Because this becomes a huge discussion point. Is it a SaaS product or someone's going to make a SaaS product? >> Yeah, so I think one of the most important elements of designing any software, but especially when you get into infrastructure is choosing an abstraction level. So if you think of computing, you can go all the way down to building a data center, you can go all the way down to getting a colo and racking a server like maybe some of us used to do, who are older than others. And that's one way to run a server. On the other extreme, you have just think of the early days of cloud competing, you had app engine, which was a really fantastic, really incredible product. It was one push deploy of, I think Python code, if I remember correctly, and everything just worked. But right in the middle of those, you had EC2, which was, EC2 is basically an API to a server. And it turns out that that abstraction level, not Colo, not the full app engine kind of platform, but the API to virtual server was the right abstraction level for maybe the last 15 years. Maybe now some of the higher level application platforms are doing really well, maybe the needs will shift. But I think that's a little bit of how we think about video. What developers want is an API to video. They don't want an API to the building blocks of video, an API to transcoding, to video storage, to edge caching. They want an API to video. On the other extreme, they don't want a big application that's a drop in white label video in a box like a Shopify kind of thing. Shopify is great, but developers don't want to build on top of Shopify. In the payments world developers want Stripe. And that abstraction level of the API to the actual thing you're getting tends to be the abstraction level that developers want to build on. And the reason for that is, it's the most productive layer to build on. You get maximum flexibility and also maximum velocity when you have that API directly to a function like video. So, we like to tell our customers like you, you own your video when you build on top of MUX, you have full control over everything, how it's stored, when it's stored, where it goes, how it's published, we handle all of the hard technology and we give our customers all of the flexibility in terms of designing their products. >> I want to get back some use case, but you brought that up I might as well just jump to my next point. I'd like you to come back and circle back on some references 'cause I know you have some. You said building on infrastructure that you own, this is a fundamental cloud concept. You mentioned API to a server for the nerds out there that know that that's cool, but the people who aren't super nerdy, that means you're basically got an interface into a server behind the scenes. You're doing the same for video. So, that is a big thing around building services. So what wide range of services can we expect beyond MUX? If I'm going to have an API to video, what could I do possibly? >> What sort of experience could you build? >> Yes, I got a team of developers saying I'm all in API to video, I don't want to do all that transit got straight there, I want to build experiences, video experiences on my app. >> Yeah, I mean, I think, one way to think about it is that, what's the range of key use cases that people do with video? We tend to think about six at MUX, one is kind of the places where the content is, the prop. So one of the things that use video is you can create great video. Think of online courses or fitness or entertainment or news or things like that. That's kind of the first thing everyone thinks of, when you think video, you think Netflix, and that's great. But we see a lot of really interesting uses of video in the world of social media. So customers of ours like Visco, which is an incredible photo sharing application, really for photographers who really care about the craft. And they were able to bring video in and bring that same kind of Visco experience to video using MUX. We think about B2B tools, videos. When you think about it, all video is, is a high bandwidth way of communicating. And so customers are as like HubSpot use video for the marketing platform, for business collaboration, you'll see a lot of growth of video in terms of helping businesses engage their customers or engage with their employees. We see live events obviously have been a massive category over the last few years. You know, we were all forced into a world where we had to do live events two years ago, but I think now we're reemerging into a world where the online part of a conference will be just as important as the in-person component of a conference. So that's another big use case we see. >> Well, full disclosure, if you're watching this live right now, it's being powered by MUX. So shout out, we use MUX on theCUBE platform that you're experiencing in this. Actually in real time, 'cause this is one application, there's many more. So video as code, is data as code is the theme, that's going to bring up the data ops. Video also is code because (laughs) it's just like you said, it's just communicating, but it gets converted to data. So data ops, video ops could be its own new category. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think, I have a couple thoughts on that. The first thought is, video is a way that, because the way that companies interact with customers or users, it's really important to have good monitoring and analytics of your video. And so the first product we ever built was actually a product called MUX video, sorry, MUX data, which is the best way to monitor a video platform at scale. So we work with a lot of the big broadcasters, we work with like CBS and Fox Sports and Discovery. We work with big tech companies like Reddit and Vimeo to help them monitor their video. And you just get a huge amount of insight when you look at robust analytics about video delivery that you can use to optimize performance, to make sure that streaming works well globally, especially in hard to reach places or on every device. That's we actually build a MUX data platform first because when we started MUX, we spent time with some of our friends at companies like YouTube and Netflix, and got to know how they use data to power their video platforms. And they do really sophisticated things with data to ensure that their streams well, and we wanted to build the product that would help everyone else do that. So, that's one use. I think the other obvious use is just really understanding what people are doing with their video, who's watching what, what's engaging, those kind of things. >> Yeah, data is definitely there. You guys mentioned some great brands that are working with you guys, and they're doing it because of the developer experience. And I'd like you to explain, if you don't mind, in your words, why is the MUX developer experience so good? What are some of the results you're seeing from your customers? What are they saying to you? Obviously when you win, you get good feedback. What are some of the things that they're saying and what specific develop experiences do they like the best? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that the most gratifying thing about being a startup founder is when your customers like what you're doing. And so we get a lot of this, but it's always, we always pay attention to what customers say. But yeah, people, the number one thing developers say when they think about MUX is that the developer experience is great. I think when they say that, what they mean is two things, first is it's easy to work with, which helps them move faster, software velocity is so important. Every company in the world is investing and wants to move quickly and to build quickly. And so if you can help a team speed up, that's massively valuable. The second thing I think when people like our developer experience is, you know, in a lot of ways that think that we get out of the way and we let them do what they want to do. So well, designed APIs are a key part of that, coming back to abstraction, making sure that you're not forcing customers into decisions that they actually want to make themselves. Like, if our video player only had one design, that that would not be, that would not work for most developers, 'cause developers want to bring their own design and style and workflow and feel to their video. And so, yeah, so I think the way we do that is just think comprehensively about how APIs are designed, think about the workflows that users are trying to accomplish with video, and make sure that we have the right APIs, make sure they're the right information, we have the right webhooks, we have the right SDKs, all of those things in place so that they can build what they want. >> We were just having a conversation on theCUBE, Dave Vellante and I, and our team, and I'd love to get you a reaction to this. And it's more and more, a riff real quick. We're seeing a trend where video as code, data as code, media stack, where you're starting to see the emergence of the media developer, where the application of media looks a lot like kind of software developer, where the app, media as an app. It could be a chat, it could be a peer to peer video, it could be part of an event platform, but with all the recent advances, in UX designers, coders, the front end looks like an emergence of these creators that are essentially media developers for all intent and purpose, they're coding media. What's your reaction to that? How do you see that evolving? >> I think the. >> Or do you agree with it? >> It's okay. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, I think a couple things. I think one thing, I think this goes along through saying, but maybe it's disagreement, is that we don't think you should have to be an expert at video or at media to create and produce or create and publish good video, good audio, good images, those kind of things. And so, you know, I think if you look at software overall, I think of 10 years ago, the kind of DevOps movement, where there was kind of a movement away from specialization in software where the same software developer could build and deploy the same software developer maybe could do front end and back end. And we want to bring that to video as well. So you don't have to be a specialist to do it. On the other hand, I do think that investments and tooling, all the way from video creation, which is not our world, but there's a lot of amazing companies out there that are making it easier to produce video, to shoot video, to edit, a lot of interesting innovations there all the way to what we do, which is helping people stream and publish video and video experiences. You know, I think another way about it is, that tool set and companies doing that let anyone be a media developer, which I think is important. >> It's like DevOps turning into low-code, no-code, eventually it's just composability almost like just, you know, "Hey Siri, give me some video." That kind of thing. Final question for you why I got you here, at the end of the day, the decision between a lot of people's build versus buy, "I got to get a developer. Why not just roll my own?" You mentioned data center, "I want to build a data center." So why MUX versus do it yourself? >> Yeah, I mean, part of the reason we started this company is we have a pretty, pretty strong opinion on this. When you think about it, when we started MUX five years ago, six years ago, if you were a developer and you wanted to accept credit cards, if you wanted to bring payment processing into your application, you didn't go build a payment gateway. You just probably used Stripe. And if you wanted to send text messages, you didn't build your own SMS gateway, you probably used Twilio. But if you were a developer and you wanted to stream video, you built your own video gateway, you built your own video application, which was really complex. Like we talked about, you know, probably three, four months of work to get something basic up and running, probably not live video that's probably only on demand video at that point. And you get no benefit by doing it yourself. You're no better than anyone else because you rolled your own video stack. What you get is risk that you might not do a good job, maybe you do worse than your competitors, and you also get distraction where you've just taken, you take 10 engineers and 10 sprints and you apply it to a problem that doesn't actually really give you differentiated value to your users. So we started MUX so that people would not have to do that. It's fine if you want to build your own video platform, once you get to a certain scale, if you can afford a dozen engineers for a VOD platform and you have some really massively differentiated use case, you know, maybe, live is, I don't know, I don't have the rule of thumb, live videos maybe five times harder than on demand video to work with. But you know, in general, like there's such a shortage of software engineers today and software engineers have, frankly, are in such high demand. Like you see what happens in the marketplace and the hiring markets, how competitive it is. You need to use your software team where they're maximally effective, and where they're maximally effective is building differentiation into your products for your customers. And video is just not that, like very few companies actually differentiate on their video technology. So we want to be that team for everyone else. We're 200 people building the absolute best video infrastructure as APIs for developers and making that available to everyone else. >> John, great to have you on with the showcase, love the company, love what you guys do. Video as code, data as code, great stuff. Final plug for the company, for the developers out there and prospects watching for MUX, why should they go to MUX? What are you guys up to? What's the big benefit? >> I mean, first, just check us out. Try try our APIs, read our docs, talk to our support team. We put a lot of work into making our platform the best, you know, as you dig deeper, I think you'd be looking at the performance around, the global performance of what we do, looking at our analytics stack and the insight you get into video streaming. We have an emerging open source video player that's really exciting, and I think is going to be the direction that open source players go for the next decade. And then, you know, we're a quickly growing team. We're 60 people at the beginning of last year. You know, we're one 50 at the beginning of this year, and we're going to a add, we're going to grow really quickly again this year. And this whole team is dedicated to building the best video structure for developers. >> Great job, Jon. Thank you so much for spending the time sharing the story of MUX here on the show, Amazon Startup Showcase season two, episode two, thanks so much. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. This is season two, episode two, the ongoing series cover the most exciting startups from the AWS Cloud Ecosystem. Talking data analytics here, video cloud, video as a service, video infrastructure, video APIs, hottest thing going on right now, and you're watching it live here on theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here featuring Jon Dahl, an entrepreneur and CEO, and co-founder of MUX, one of the hottest video platforms and fast growing startups in the industry. They've been selected for this upcoming AWS Startup Showcase on April 5th. Jon, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. >> Thank you, John. >> You know, we've been following you guys for a long time, a couple years now and a customer of your products, so we do the video here. Video is at the center of the pandemic and the way where people are using it for video conferencing, we're seeing all the success. But video has been this dark art, it's been hard to use, it's been... And very difficult unless you were in the business. But now you guys are bringing in a new model making it easier to use and making it developer friendly, which I think is really compelling. So congratulations, love the story. First question, what is the business of MUX, the tech, the consumption model? Can you take a minute to explain what MUX is all about? >> Yeah, for sure. We are a video platform for developers. So we are APIs to all of the different hard problems that you have to deal with if you want to stream video online. Like you said, video is growing it's a really important part of the internet today, it's a really important part of the future of the internet. And yet it's still really, really difficult to work with. The kind of status quo is you hire video experts and you build your own video platform if you want to stream video online. And so we built MUX in order to do all that hard heavy lifting for thousands of other companies. So we are core infrastructure for video stream for companies like you and any software company really that wants to work with video. >> What's interesting is when you look at the rise of the video creator or the influencer or media or any business, cloud computing has shown the way of a new business model standard up quick, be agile and fast. DevOps is infrastructures code, you guys are kind of like videos code. I mean, simply just API enable and you're up and running. Is that right? >> Yeah, that's exactly right. When we started the company actually, we're thinking about, how do we want to shape the products? We actually thought about our experience. The founders are all developers. We thought about our experience. If we were going to design, if we were going to build software and just think of an abstract API to video as an entity, how would you design APIs that give you that kind of functionality. So we spend a lot of time thinking about API design and the developer experience of what we're doing really in order to let developers build the way they want, build anything they want with video in as easy a way as possible. >> You know, it's interesting and I'd love to get your thoughts on this 'cause this brings in the whole data aspect of it, you know, building better video data something that you guys talk a lot about. And that's a background you guys have come from, you kind of vectored it in that way as developers. So you combine data analytics with developers which want to make it easy and fast and get it out there. As you bring that together, what is the real benefit with this model of the cloud? Can you share your thoughts of how you bring that video and data piece together? >> Yeah, for sure. It's the kind of thing where if you're a software developer and you want to deploy software at scaled today, you have to invest in good observability, good monitoring good analytics, good data. You know, if you're a dev team and your company's like, "Hey, we're just going to turn off all of our monitoring for our software," you're probably not going to be very happy. And yet a lot of people are streaming video today at scale and high volumes without really great insight into what actually happens when they stream video. So the first product we actually built was a product called Mux Data, which is an analytics platform for developers operating video platforms. So the user is a DevOps engineer, whoever's on call for the video stack, as well as marketing teams who want to see how this video is being used. So we built that because we knew how important it was. We built video platform forms before for ourselves, a company called Zencoder, for a company called Brightcove that we ended up spending some time at after selling Zencoder. And we saw firsthand how impactful data is to building great video streaming. >> What's the role of cloud and all this? How do you guys see the cloud playing into this? >> Yeah, I mean, at a simple level we run, like everyone we run our software in the cloud. But I think really what the cloud is and does is a way of abstracting a way of hard problems from developers. So if you look at the world today there's actually more demand for software than there are software developers to build it. There's just softwares growing like crazy, there's just huge need for software. And so in that kind of situation, one of the most powerful things you can do is make it easier for developers to build things. So that's why dev tools are so important, that's why you see so much growth in that area. And we do that for video. We replace, you know, tens of... Hundreds of thousands of hours of engineering time to build the same thing everyone else has, to build, you know, your own version of Netflix or YouTube or whatever. So that's kind of how we fit in, but I really think that's a lot of what the cloud is, it's a way of accelerating the growth of software. >> You know, Andy Jassy always says on theCUBE, you know we want to do all the heavy lifting. And that sounds like what MUX is doing and I know you guys have that analytics culture. What influence does that have on your business decisions and the product roadmap? >> Yeah, a couple of things. So, we really directly use data in our technology. So as we build video streaming which is our MUX video product as we build other products over time, whenever possible we want to build them with data first. So we actually have a lot of data into how people stream video and that can inform the way we design products. As a business itself, we also... As we've grown we've stood up our own analytics team, which has just been hugely important. Like we... I have so much more insight into our business now than I did two years ago before we really invested in our own internal analytics team. >> John: How hard was that to do >> How hard? It was... It's a kind of thing that I think you benefit by hiring experts. So I know how to... I kind of know how to look at data and make decisions from that, but I'm not a trained day analyst, I'm not a data scientist, I'm a software developer turn founder. And so, you know, I think early when we were small we were a 20 person startup, we aspire hired to be data driven or data informed but it's hard honestly at that scale. So as we got bigger, we actually hired. It was hard to find great people but we've built a really strong analytics team, (mumbles) team data engineering team. And I think what we're doing now, we've done over the last year, is just learn how to use that data, learn how to leverage all those, that expertise and that data that we have to make better decisions. Well, speaking of data and you got a lot of coming in 'cause you guys have been highly successful and again, your product has really hit the right time because people want to code, they want to build into the applications video, video first as everyone's going in data first video first, what kind of data do you guys have on the use of the video on the raw of the consumption side of it especially as you're seeing it in every application now? >> Yeah, I mean, we have, we have a couple things. We have our own growth of video streaming, which has grown really quickly, probably not a surprise, but I think we saw live video grow by... It's just like you measure, but by like 3000% in 2020. We just saw a huge explosion of new companies doing live streaming and existing companies that were doing other kinds of video really lean into live. So, I think we've seen the fastest growth in the world of live, but really we've seen growth across the board on different platforms, different types of video. >> What's your advice to folks out there because you guys now are our key building block? And again, love the API approach. Easy to integrate and again, we're customers happy... Happy customers on our end. When you see applications being built, what's the trend? What are people doing? Are they rolling their own video apps? Is it... Do you guys see you guys as a platform, as a service? It's not a tool because you got the platform but there's tools out there. So you got the emergence of more tools and the need for more platform. How do you see this kind of shaping out? >> Yeah, it depends how you define the different categories. The way we think about it is we're infrastructure because we sit low down in the stack. So if you build on top of MUX you're still building your own... You're still own video streaming. We just do the heavy lifting under the hood. We move the bits, we do the encoding. So we're infrastructure. We also see our ourselves as a platform because you can build flexible things on top of us. And we have each of the different parts of the video stack. We have videos, live video On Demand, video, data, player those kind of things. So I think, I think like you said there's really a lot of different related categories that are a little different. So we see tooling being something like Mux Data where it's not really the like operational flow of something, it's more on the side to make it better or to give observability or to increase developer productivity. >> Yeah, data is key and in hybrid events are big too seeing that Simulive is a big growth category. I probably imagine. >> Yeah. >> What about reliability and uptime? I see... I can envision kind of an SRE role emerging around video. I'm sure you guys are dealing with it every day 'cause you're the transport you're moving bits around, you know, no one wants downtime. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think... Again, I think the, the infrastructure of video streaming, like we really need to deliver that with exceptional up time and everyone that we rely on and we build on top of other cloud platforms and we build on top of other other tools. So we certainly invest a lot in that. I think the other side of that is we are that to owe customers in some ways where we give them real time data about what's happening on their platforms. So you know, there's stories that tell 'cause of NDAs, but like we've had major events where live video has kept streaming because someone detected a problem early using Mux Data and was able to remedy the problem before it actually impacted users. But absolutely, I mean, SREs are-- >> And cloud helps because you can spin up all kinds of queuing and all kinds of cool things. I mean, new microservice could be built as the future limit. Let's see here around video. What are the biggest surprises you see looking back? I know you guys are kind of a humble startup, I would say, you guys aren't going out there too hardcore and thing things up. You've got good product. What's the biggest learnings you look back over the past two years with MUX and video? >> I mean, I think some of what has been unexpected is the uses of video. I think we did not expected the pandemic and we didn't expect all of the ways people would adapt. And we've seen some really fascinating things from yeah, offline businesses very quickly building their own digital arms, which you you'd think they couldn't, but a lot actually really successfully did back in 2020. And then now a lot of companies going in that hybrid direction where maybe a yoga studio will forever have in-person classes as well as livestream classes or, you know, a university will have in person and live streamed On Demand. >> What are some trends that you would recommend people to look at if they want to get into doing some video development? What should they stay away from? What should they double down on? And obviously cloud scales, obviously, easy to stand things up in the cloud, roll of data's important. How should someone roll their own with MUX? What's the best practice? And do you have a playbook or are things developing? >> Yeah, yeah. So I think... I mean, the thing about a video is just the high bandwidth way of communicating with, you know, one on one or with a group or, you know, learning or, or whatever. And so, you know, first understand your audience cares about, understand how video can help drive that communication. And then as you're building, I mean, I think obvious take this with... I'm heavily biased here, but we don't think, we don't think anyone should build their own video infrastructure today unless you can devote maybe 200 full-time engineers to it. I think that that's a reasonable benchmark for like really starting something from scratch and going all the way. You know, a small company, maybe a team of five, can do something, but you really need to decide what's most important to your users and how do you avoid doing the undifferentiated heavy lifting that Andy Jassy talks about? >> Yeah, and I think, you know, you guys have the founding team, have the years of experience, decades of experience collectively between you guys. What's the secret sauce? I mean, you guys look at MUX, if someone had asked you two questions what's the secret sauce and what's the culture like at MUX? >> Yeah, secret sauce. I think for us, it's two things. One is, again, developer experience. So really deeply understanding how do people want to build, understanding how developers like to bring APIs on their platform or tooling into their platforms, investing a lot in API design and documentation and finding the right abstractions over these hard problems. I think the second is performance. So if you're going to do something like video and this applies to any number of other technical products you really need to go deep. So it's really important for us to do things in order to publish via better and hire quality, publishing even faster, more higher reliability and all that. So lots more, if you want to... Lot more we could dig into there if we have time, but those are probably the two most important. >> What's the culture of the company if you had to define it? >> Yeah, we... When you... If you'd ask team, probably the first answer you get is be human. That's one of our core values, is be human. So we tend to have a culture of caring about people in the company, caring about our customers, treating people like people and not treating people like just, you know, (mumbles). I think we also have a culture. We have another value of care obsessively. So we have a culture of really caring about doing great work. So we try to hire excellent people who are excited to build great products or to serve customers well. So probably those two would be the most important >> Well, great to have you on, Jon. Congratulations on the success and of MUX, thanks for building the product. And again, infrastructure is a service for video whatever you want to call it, it's the beginning of a big wave. Video's not going away. It just has to get easier and easier. >> Yeah, awesome, thank you. >> Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate the conversation. Keep it right there for more coverage from theCUBE. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.