>>From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of coop con and cloud native con North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back, everybody Jeffrey here with the cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today with our ongoing coverage of coupon cloud native con North America, 2020. It's not really North America, it's virtual like everything else, but you know that the European show earlier in the summer, and this is the, this is the late fall show. So we're excited to welcome in our very next two guests. Uh, first joining us from Madrid. Spain is Miguel Perez, Kaleena. He is a principal product manager from red hat, Miguel. Great to see you. >>Good to see you happy to be in the cube. >>Yes. Great. Well welcome. And joining us from North Carolina is rich Sharples. He is a senior director, product management of red hat. Rich. Great to see you. >>Yeah, likewise, thanks for inviting me again. >>So we're talking about Java today and before we kind of jump into it, you know, in preparing for this rich, I saw an interview that you did, I think earlier about halfway through the year, uh, celebrating the 25th anniversary of Java and talking about the 25th anniversary Java. And before we kind of get into the future, I think it's worthwhile to take a look back at, you know, kind of where Java came from and how it's lasted for 25 years of such an important enterprise, you know, kind of application framework, because we always hear jokes about people looking for COBOL programmers or, you know, all these old language programmers, because they have some old system that's that needs a little assist. What's special about Java. Why are we 25 years into it? And you guys are still excited about Java yesterday, today and in the future. >>Yeah. And I should add that, um, in terms of languages, uh, twenty-five is actually still pretty young. Java's, uh, kind of middle aged, I guess. Um, you know, things like CC plus bus rrr you're 45, 50 years old Python, I think is about the same as Java in terms of years. So, you know, the languages do tend to move at a, um, at a, they do tend to stick around, uh, uh, a bit, well what's made Java really, really important for enterprises building business critical applications is it started off with a very large ecosystem of big vendors supporting it. Um, it was open in a sense from the very start and it's remained open as in open source and an open community as well. So that's really, really helped, um, you know, keep the language innovating and moving along and attracting new developers. And, um, it's, it's still a fairly modern language in terms of some of the new features it's advancing with the industry taking on new kinds of workloads and new kinds of per program paradigms as well. So, you know, it's, it's evolved very well and has a huge base out somewhere between 11 and 13 million developers still use it as a primary development language in professional settings. Yeah. >>What struck me about what you said though in that interview was kind of the evolution and how Java has been able to continue to adapt based on kind of what the new frameworks are. So whether it was early days in a machine, like you talked about being in a set top box, or, you know, kind of really lightweight kind of almost IOT applications then to be calming, you know, this really a great application to deliver enterprise applications via a web browser and that, you know, and it continues to morph and change and adapt over time. I thought that was pretty interesting given the vast change in the way applications are delivered today versus what they were 25 years ago. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, the very early days were around embedded devices, uh, intelligent toasters and, you know, whatever. Um, and, and then where it really, really took off was, but the building supporting big backend systems, big transactional workloads, whether you're a bank or an airline you're running both the scale, but also running really, really complex transactional systems that were business critical. And that's that's for the last, you know, 15 years has been, um, where it's, it's really shown building backend, um, systems. Now, as we kind of move forward, you know, the idea of, uh, um, like server side, uh, server side application versus a front end is kind of changed. You know, now we're talking microservices, we're talking about running in containers. So really the focus of where we run Java and the kinds of applications we're building with Java as this has radically changed. And as such the language has to change as well, which is, you know, one, I'm pretty excited to talk about caucus today. >>So let's, let's jump into it and talk about corcus cause the other big trend, you know, along with, with, with obviously, uh, uh, browsers being great enterprise applications, delivery vehicles is this thing called containers, right? And, and specifically more recently Kubernetes is the one that's grabbing all the attention and grabbing all the, all the momentum. Um, so I wonder Miguel, if you could talk about, you know, kind of as, as the popularity of containerized applications and containerized to everything right, containerized storage, or you even talked about containerizing networking, troll, how that's impacted, uh, what you guys are doing and the impact of Java, uh, and making it work with kind of a containerized Kubernetes world. >>Well, what we found is that the paradigm of development has teeth. So we have this top up, uh, uh, paradigm that the people are following to be able to do the best with containers, to the best with Kubernetes on the, this has worked quite fine in Greenfield on for, for many cases has been a way to develop applications faster, to be able to obtain variably salts. And the thing is that for many, uh, users, for many companies that we work with, uh, they also want to bring some of their stuff that the applications that are currently are running into this world. And, uh, I mean, we, we walk especially a lot in helping these customers be able to adopt those obligations, but we try to do it, uh, as we say, the N pixie dust, you know, we really dig into the code, we'll review the code with modernize. The application will help their customer with that application. We provide the tools are open for anyone to be able to review it and to be able to take it. So we are moving away from Greenfield into brownfield and not a way we are evolving together to say we more precise, you know, all these Greenfield applications keep coming, but also the current applications want to be more organized. >>Right. Right. So it's pretty interesting. Cause that's always the big conversation. There's, it's, it's all fine. And good if you're just building something new, uh, to use the latest tools. But as you mentioned, there's a whole lot of conversation about application modernization and this is really an opportunity to apply some of these techniques to do that. So quirky. So I wonder if you just give, let's just jump into it. What is it at the highest level? Uh, what's it all about? What should people know? >>Yeah. So, so Corker says I'm reading an attempt by red hat to ensure Java is a first-class citizen in containerized environments, but building reactive applications, uh, cloud native applications, uh, functions, Java is an incredible piece of engineering. It does some incredible things. It sudden can self optimize. As it's running in line code, it can do some really amazing things the longer it runs, but in a containerized environment, you're likely not going to be running huge amounts of code. You'd likely be running microservices and your, your services are likely to have a kind of limited life cycle as we you're able to deploy more frequently or in a function environment where, you know, you've been bought once and then you're done, um, you know, during all those long, um, kind of, um, those optimizations over time, don't really, um, make a lot of sense. So what we can do is remove a lot of the, um, the weights of Java, a lot of the complexity of Java, and we can optimize for an environment where your code is maybe just running for a few microseconds as in the case of the function or something running in native, cause you scale up and scale down. >>So we move a lot of the op side. We move a lot of the, um, the, the efforts within the application, uh, to compile time, we pre compile all of your, of your config and initialization, so that doesn't have to happen in your, um, your, your, your runtime or your production environment. Um, and then we can optimize the code week. We can, we can remove that code. We can remove, you know, whole, uh, trees and class libraries and really slimmed down the memory footprint and radically, um, slim, the Maddie memory footprint, um, increase the startup time as well. So, you know, you have less downtime in your applications. Um, and we've recently done a S a study with ADC that shows some pretty stunning results compared to, you know, some existing frameworks. And, you know, we get, um, you know, sort of like, you know, overall cost savings of, you know, 60, 64%. >>Um, we can get eight times better density. You're running more in a, in a, in a cluster and, um, you know, reduction in memory up to 90% as well. So it's, these are significant changes now. That's all good, you know, saving, saving 60, 60% on your operational costs is significant. But what we find is that most organizations, they come for the performance and the optimizations, but what actually stay for is the speed of development. So I think, I think caucus real silver bullets is, um, the developer productivity, you know, for organizations, the cost of development is still one of the major costs. I mean, the operational costs, the hosting costs a significant, but development costs, time to market will always be top of mind for organizations that are trying to move faster than the competition. And I think that's really where, um, um, caucus special and coupled in, uh, in, uh, OpenShift or Coobernetti's environment really, really does shine. Yeah, >>It's pretty interesting. So people can go to corcus.io and see a lot of the statistics that you just referenced in terms of memory usage and speed and, and whole bunch of stuff. But what struck me when I went to the site was that was this big, uh, uh, two words that jumped out developer joy. And it's funny that you talked on that just now about really, um, the benefits that come to the developer directly to make them happier. I mean, really calling out their joy. So they're more productive and ultimately that's what you said. That's where the great value is in terms of speed of deployment, happy developers, and productive developers. You know, Miguel, you get your, you get down into the weeds of this stuff. Again, the presentations on your LinkedIn, everyone needs to go look and you talk a lot about at migration and you lot talk a lot about app modernization. So without going through all 120 some odd slides that I think you have, which is good, phenomenal information, what are some of the top things that people need to think about and consider both for app modernization as well as at migration? >>Um, that's, that's, that's an interesting question. Uh, the thing is that, um, the tolling is important on the current code is, and the thing is that normally when, when we started migration project, we tried to find architects in the applications to be able to find patterns. You know, you find parents is much easier because, uh, once you solve one part on the same part on can be solved in a very similar way. So this is one of the parts of that. We focus a lot, but before getting to that point, it's very important how you stop, you know, so the assessment phase is, is very important to be able to review well, what is the status of the applications, the context of the applications. And with that, I mean, things like, for example, the requirements that they have, there's the maintenance that they take in their resiliency and so on. >>So you have to prepare very well, the project by starting with a good assessment, you have to check which applications makes more, make more sense to start with and see which, how to group them together by similarities. And then you can start with the project that saying, okay, let's go for these set of applications that make more sense that are more likely to be containerized because of the way we are developing them because of the dependencies that they have because of the resiliency that is already embedded into them and so on. So that, that the methodology is important. And we normally, for example, when we, when we help partners do a application migration, one of the things that we stress is that this is the methodology that we follow and in the website for my vision, totally for application, you can find also, um, methodology, uh, part that, uh, could help, uh, people understand, okay, these, these are the stages that we normally follow to be successful with migrating applications. >>Yeah. Let go. You don't, we're not friends. We don't hang out a lot, but if we did, you would know I never ever recommend PowerPoint for anything. So, so the fact that I'm calling out your PowerPoint actually means something. Cause I think it's the worst application ever built, but you got some tremendous, tremendous information in there and people do need to go in and look, and again, it's all from your LinkedIn work, but I wanted to shift gears a little bit, right? We're at CubeCon cloud native con. Um, obviously it's virtual is 2020. That's the way the world today. But I just curious to get your guys' take on, on what does this, uh, event mean for you obviously really active, open source community, you know, red hat has a long open-source history. Um, what does CubeCon cloud native con mean for you guys? What do you hope to get out of it? What should people hope to, uh, to learn from red hat? >>Yeah, we, um, yeah, we're, we're buying your DNA. We're very, very collaborative. Uh, we, we love to learn from our customers, users of the technologies, um, in the communities that we support. Um, speaking as a, you know, we're both product guys, there's nothing better than getting with, um, people that actually use the products, um, in anger, in real life, whether they're products are upstream technologies, learning, learning, what they're doing, understanding where, um, some of the gaps are there's. Um, yeah, we just couldn't do our jobs without engaging with developers, users in these kind of conferences. Yeah. A lot of the, um, love interest we've seen with coworkers is, is in the community, you know, um, like I'd been part of many, many successful open source projects, um, um, over red hat. And it's great when your customers, you know, like, uh, Vodafone, Greece or Carrefour in Spain are openly publicly talking about how good your technology is, what they're using it for. And that's really good. So it's just nothing, there's no alternative that, you know, whether it be virtual virtually or physically sitting down with, uh, with users of your technology, >>How about you, Miguel? What are you hoping to get out of, uh, out of the show this year? >>Um, we are working a lot with, on Kubernetes in red hat, on, uh, as part of the community, of course. And, um, I mean, there are so many new stuff that is coming around, Kubernetes that, uh, it's mostly about it, about all the capabilities that were arming, especially for example, several lists, you know, several lessons, there is an important topic with crackers, because for example, as you make the application stopped so much faster and react so much faster, you could have known of them running and just waiting for an event to happen, which saves a lot of resources and makes us super efficient. So this is one of the topics, for example, that we wanted to cover in this edition, you know, how we are implementing serverless with Kubernetes and OpenShift and many other things like pipelines. Like, I don't know, we just had quite a visit in the, uh, uh, video, uh, life of what is coming up. I see for the six. And I recommend people to take a look at it, to get everything that's new because there's a lot. Yeah, >>Yeah. You guys are technical people. You've been doing this for a long time. Why is Kubernetes so special? W Y Y you know, there's been containers in the past, right. And we've seen other kind of branded open source projects that got a lot of momentum, but Kubernetes just seems to be blowing everybody out of the out of its path. Why, what should people know about Kubernetes that aren't necessarily developers? >>Yeah, there's really nothing interesting about a single container or a single microservice, right? That's not, that's not the kind of environment that, um, real organizations live in. They live in organizations where they're going to have hundreds of services, um, who just containers and you need a technology to orchestrate and manage that in that complex environment. And Kubernete's has just quickly become the, the district per standard. Um, yeah, folks are red hat jumped on my very, very early, um, I mean, one of the advantages around her have is where we're embedded with developers and open source communities. We often have a pretty good, it gives us a pretty good crystal ball. So we're often quick to jump on the emerging technologies that are coming out of open source. And that's exactly what happened with Cubanetis. It was clear. It was, um, you're going to be sophisticated for our, you know, most, um, most sophisticated customers running at scale. Um, but, but also, you know, great for development environments as well. So it really a good fit for, uh, where we were headed and, you know, just very, very quickly became the fact that standard. And you, you just gotta go with the de facto standard. Right, right. >>Right. Well, the another thing that you mentioned rich in that other interview that I was watching is it came up the conversation in terms of managing open source projects. And at some point, you know, they kind of start, and then, you know, I think this one, if I go to corcus and look at the bottom of the page sponsored by red hat, but you talked about, you know, at some point, do you move it over to a foundation, um, you know, and kind of what are the things that kind of drive that process, that decision, um, and, you know, I would imagine that part of it has to do with popularity and scale, is that something, you know, potentially down the road, how do you think that you said you've been in lots of open source projects, when does it move from, you know, kind of single point of origin to more of a foundational support? >>Yeah. I mean, in fact the foundation's owner was necessary. Um, you know, when you have a, yeah. If you, if you have a, an open, very open project with, um, um, clear, clear rules for collaboration and kind of the encouragement or others to collaborate and be able to, you know, um, move the project and, you know, the foundation as low as necessarily what we've seen, I've been part of the no GS world where, you know, the, the community reached Belden to keep no GS moving forward. Um, we had to go from a, what we call a benevolent dictator for life, somebody who's well-intentioned, but, um, yeah, we're on stone, the technology, so a foundation, which is much more inclusive and, um, you know, greater collaboration and you can move even quicker. So, you know, um, I think what's required is, is open governance for open source projects and where that doesn't happen. You know, maybe a foundation is, is the right way forward. Right, right now with, with caucus, um, you know, the, the non red hat developers seem pretty happy with the way they can get, uh, get engaged and contribute. Um, but if we get to a point where the community is demanding a foundation and we'll absolutely consider it, that's the best project we'll do. >>So, so we're, we're coming to the end of our time. I want to give you each the last word, really with two questions, one again, you know, just kind of a summary of, of, uh, of CubeCon cloud, native con, you know, what should people be looking for, uh, find you, and, and, and I don't know if you guys are sponsoring any sessions, I'm sure there's a lot of great content. If you want to highlight one or two things. And then most importantly, as we turn the calendars, we come to the end of 2020, uh, thankfully, um, as you look ahead to 2021, you know, what are some of your priorities, uh, as, as we get ready to turn the turn, the calendar, and Miguel let's start with you. >>So, um, I mean, we have been working very hard this year on the migration, took it for applications to help her every user that is using Java to bring the two containers. You know, whether it is data IE or these crackers, but we're putting like a lot of effort in crackers. And now we are bringing in new rules. And, uh, by the, by December, we expect to have the new version of the migration looking for applications that is going to include the, all the bulls to help developers bring their, their code to the Java code, to, to carcass. And, uh, on this, this is the main goal for us right now. We are moving forward to the next year to include more, more capabilities in that project. Everything's up on site. You can go to the conveyor, uh, project and ticket on, uh, on the up capabilities for the assessment phase. So whenever any partner, any, any of our consultants are working on, on migration or anyone that would like to go and try it themselves on adopted, would like to do these migrations to the cloud native world, uh, will feel comfortable with, with this tool. So that is our main goal in, in my, in my team. >>All right. And how about you rich? >>Yeah, I think we're going to see this, um, um, kind of syllabus solidification kind of web of, um, microservices. Um, you know, if you like hate that, I'm sorry, but I'm just going to next generation microservice. There's going to be, as Miguel mentioned, is gonna be based around, um, uh, native, um, advancing, um, serverless functions. I think that's really the, the, the ideal architecture, the building March services, um, on, on Coobernetti's and caucus plays really, really well there. Um, I think there's, there's a, there's a kind of backlog of projects, um, within organizations that, um, you know, hopefully next year, everything really does start to crank up. And I think, um, yeah, I think a lot of the migration that Miguel has talked about is going to be, is going to rise in terms of importance. So app modernization, taking those existing applications, maybe taking aspects of those and, you know, doing some kind of decomposition in some microservices using caucus and a native, I think we'll see a lot of that. So I think we'll see a real drive around both the kind of Greenfield, um, applications, uh, you know, this next generation of microservices, as well as pulling those existing applications forward into these new environments, don't give an answers. So it's going to be excellent. >>Awesome. Well, thank you both for taking a few minutes with us and sharing the story of corcus, uh, and have a great show. Great to see you and a really good the conversation. All right. He's Miguel, he's rich. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cubes ongoing coverage of CubeCon cloud native con 2020 North America. Virtual. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.