>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Susic on digital brought to you by Susan. Right? >>Welcome back. I'm Stew Minuteman. And this is the Cube's coverage of Silicon Digital 20. Really excited to be digging into some of the cloud discussions. I've got two guests joining me now, one from across the pond and one from across the country. So joining me is Billy Baldwin. She is the senior director of Global CSP Alliance sales with Lisa. Coming from across the pond and coming from California is Mikhail Fradkov, who is a principal business development at Amazon Web services. Thank you both for joining us. >>Thank you to really, really exciting. >>All right, So, Julie, obviously, you know, we know we're limit Been proliferating the cloud something that almost I think really understand. You know, cloud, you know, big piece of the overall soussa discussion. Um, bring us inside a little bit, You know your role. And of course, the long partnership that business ad with AWS. >>Yeah. So? So my role is working with, you know, the major hyper scale is in the public cloud providers in offering solutions that's driving digital transformation. And this modernization even more so in today's current climate. We're seeing, you know, modernization transformation is being driven out of necessity. The necessity now due to the yeah, the code 19 impact. So I really want to draw on. You know, we've been working with AWS for the last 10 years. We've serviced, you know, thousands of customers between us who are looking at how they innovate on D drive, you know, flexibility and agility into into their, you know, the right and then there accounts. So it's really important that, you know, we look at how we support our customers from a, uh, and integrated support perspective and how we can we can move them forward in the in the digital transformation journey. >>Awesome. So Mikhail and I want to hear what Julie talked about. I think about when I when I look at AWS, you talk about builders when you go to the conference that Amazon told, you know, innovation is absolutely something there. So talk to us a little bit about how you know the Linux community in general, and to save costs more specifically are engaged. And you know a piece of what AWS is doing. >>Sure, So in general, it's a bless. I'm responsible for making sure that our customers are successful as they go through there. Well, its information Jordan you or business transformation. Jordan is so those those are all involved transformations. And, um, it's It's actually an interesting position to be in because you see it first hand on the ground for all the challenges and all the all the interesting problems that customers get the soul and then it's a sexual incredibly exciting that we're having this conversation in the framework of silicon because open source is incredibly important for a glass and stable beta last week understand how important open source is for customer success, and therefore we've been involved in contributing to the projects from from very early on, that justly mix and a VM and Java and kubernetes. So we see we see a lot of a lot of proliferation in the space and then another. Another interest in I guess below that, I would say, is if you think about the open source notion, which is largely around community, so there is this sort of like a juxtaposition off the cathedral and the bazaar, right, and then so the bazaar is the vibrant community off people, commentaries with ideas, and they're they're pursuing them and they innovate. And so something similar we see in the um yes, it the blast community with several 1,000,000 customers day today. They're sold in challenges and bring in lots of lots of requests for innovation, and I >>want to call it puts >>pressure on Amazon to innovate. But it's a lot of inspiration, right? And then, therefore it's It's interesting to see right that because of all the innovation and all those requests, customers get access on Amazon toe. All the features such as same was open source, Right? So you capitalize on this on this innovation, and you're there is well, customers can request, let's say, in financial service industry and then so you get a lot of security features. All the only controls would say, like I saw saw some combines and then some of the most stringent compliance already, like product guys that say the blessed, that stuff. That's one of the examples. >>Yeah, I e starts are Julie. That customer flywheel that you talked about is what we really want. They're so Julie, you want wanted to comment on what he was saying. >>I was just kind of just to kind of reinforce, you know, that whole community in that whole innovation based as well because from an open source perspective, you know that that sense of community is really driving those changes on with the AWS platform. It's got a very rich functionality behind it. You know, it's one of the, you know, the first time platform. So it does have that degree of innovation, you know, from from Day One. And that's just being driven by the by, the by, our customers who are pushing the envelope family in everyone more on. That's where you know the relationship between, you know, Souza on AWS is really, really started to excel. Looking at how we we move into that container space now as well, and help the customers, you know, modernize not only their, you know, the the cloud native that's going straight to cloud. But how do they modernize modernize their legacy applications as well? Um, and how today, you know, take, you know, take their on premise environments on, make them more effective and more efficient, and by using public cloud to be able to do that. >>Yeah. Julia, I'm glad you brought that up, because absolutely, there's opportunity. But there's challenges there. Customers really have. You know, it's either hybrid or multi cloud deployment. You know, container ization. Kubernetes are absolutely enable is there? But I wonder if you could bring us inside. What Susie doing? You have any customer examples of you know how they're really making this change? We know that it's still the majority of applications have not been modernized. They've not going cloud native. They're not ready for these environments. So how are customers working through this ultimate journey? >>Yeah, I mean, it's really, really complex. And I did a presentation on our sales summit talking about, you know, Gardner's five. Ours about you know, what applications can move to the cloud, how easy it is to do that. And I think there is some research done last year with for like, one, um, where the previous year there was a lot of customers said, Yeah, we're moving to fired and it's easy. And then this year, when they rerun the survey, it was No, it's really hard. We need partners. We need to look at how we how we do this. And so you know, every application is going to be able to be moved hours, and it's really Orton that they know the customers have a strategy and look at what they're doing on prem it and then start to identify what is you know, what is cloud friendly? What do they need to do to kind of go forward? You know, Do they need to be, you know, rewrite an application? Do they need to re factor it kind of just be a lift and shift. And so what we're doing with with AWS is, you know, we've been working with partners like both, for example, who built out to retail application platform to be able to migrate those customers quickly into a more cost effective and efficient way of delivering businesses because they will say, you know, even more so in the current scenario there, you know margins are being squeezed. They need to be looked at being ableto deliver higher, you know, return on investment and to share with any of their, you know, in with their spend. So, you know, that's that's one area that we are kind of like, Look, you know, looking at as well. We've had great success with it. Um, we've also got a quick start programs with with AWS that allows, you know, customers you need to migrate quickly and easily. To be able todo to take those applications on their environments on DNA, move them on to the public cloud. So that so that those are two key areas that we're really looking at, you know, driving. Yeah, they're driving forward because it's critical because it is complex. Um, you need to have a Roma. You need to have a strategy about how you do, and you need to identify and include the stakeholders when they move. You know, when you're changing your environment to make sure that you haven't missed anything, >>something that would love to hear your viewpoint on this to you know, when you look at the Amazon ecosystem, you've got a huge AWS marketplace. Obviously, the integrators help customers work through their various environments and how to modernize them. How to move there, you know, what are you seeing in the customer base, for example, you can help share as to how they're moving along. >>Sure. One of the way we have to understand right, a little bit off the context. So all this all this talk about, let's say, cloud migration and innovation, it's not. It's not an abstract sort of exercise, an absolute discipline. It happens for its right if we look. If you look at the innovative companies at a fast moving companies, effectively, they they see on average time to value metrics about 420 times faster. Then let's say what people slow companies, right? And then So that's That was a lot of pressure on companies to actually embrace, embrace this innovation and the digital transformation and engage with customers in the way that they have never done before, such as just technology enable so many things, so many protect right and then this. With any opportunity it comes, Here comes a challenge on then, as Julie pointed out, it's a it's a difficult exercise. Let's let's not mince words here. So and therefore we have to make sure that everybody is a line. Let's say customer goes through this exercise right that that they're trying to change their processes. The leadership sets new goals. The leadership says new objectives. They have to change the culture they have to train people. So that is that it's not just the challenge of the patient right there within the hour, then outside of the company, you want to make sure that effectively, everybody, everybody comes to the table is there's a lot of value and very much alive, and that just that this is where we see, I guess a lot of, um, a lot of opportunity because as as you go through this process, um, you have to, right, you have to have the right stakeholders who have you have to have trained people, right? And then if you look at another statistics that just 86 companies or so they have a first step and the other 86 infrastructure spend this to on premise And the reason for that is companies cannot not hire and train and train faster, right? So therefore, on AWS side, we we invest a lot in training programs and certification programs as well as we have the vibrant community off partners who can step in and help us with challenges such as we have a system off JIA size and the size, so we have with both hands off the size M s P s, whatever we have providers. And then effectively back to what results here is that you have the synergy. Not not only the change going from from the inside company. >>They >>also have the support structure. As Joe talked about Big Start, we have training and then we have programmatic support, right cattle, how to navigate passengers for that. And then as the switch swollen, you mentioned their new processes. This is this is where the power of the cloud comes in and part of the community. So all those challenges they have been sold. So you can take some of the blueprints and apply them as is. And >>you can you can >>pick and choose what? What? Your bias. So, for example, you can go with cloud native tools with Amazon Web services at the very same time you can. You can also pick products. For example, SuSE Cloud application platform, which provides you with this. I wouldn't call it, um it's slightly more opinionated approach how to how to implement your develops practices and agile practices. And then it's still making Iran's on top of Amazon elastic container service. So yeah, and then, as as Jules mentioned. We program, for example, in the work of success with it >>and just touching on that point because, you know, we talk about we're not islands, you know, we have to engage with the partners. You know, we want to make sure the customer success is at the heart of everything that we do. Um, and we have to bring in the right skill sets at the right time, you know, to to make make that journey as easy as possible and as quickly as possible on. So that's the you know that that's the beauty of community. That's the beauty of partners on benders coming together with the customer at the heart off of everything that they do on. You know, I know that's a very strong message that you're going to get from, you know, from Susie Con. But it's from message that we showed with Aws as well, about how do we do the right thing for the customer and how do we, you know, and how do we enable that success? But then to be successful, which will drive Ultimate six, you know, successes as partners as well? >>Excellent, Julie. One of the big things we're themes we heard in the keynote was talking about the developer community's obviously to say in AWS A lot of developers, anything specific for the developers out there That that either. The highlight >>s so obviously we've got the cloud application platform on. We've got the quick starts as well. So for May is you know, you've got a proven a proven platform with real aws that, you know, the infrastructure available there, the ease of which, you know, cloud application platform can sit on top of that of the eks elastic. The services is really, really critical. And, you know, for me, it would be just, you know, just try it, um, on and give us your feedback as well. I think that's really important, because the way that you know, we drive innovation is through that, you know, the cut, the feedback from our customers and people actually using that, you know, the services. I think McHale pointed to the earlier as well. You know, the innovation that they've seen has been driven by, you know, customers actually saying we want this feature. We want this put pressure on from a from a dev ops community is you know there are alternatives out there and you know, you should, you know, to try. You should try. Look at you know, if that suit your needs better. I look at how you can use a trusted partner like AWS and and Susie Teoh to actually meet some of those new needs they're coming aboard. >>And it's also to Julius Point right? Way cannot overemphasize the importance off builders off people who own on this innovation within the company. And be because the biggest thing that companies can do for their success is to enable builders and as as we mentioned before, right? So the process is this challenging the other multiple parties involved, but the very same time to empower people to drive this change, it's almost like instead of directing them like, Oh, um, the space is pretty pretty interesting analogy. So instead of if you want people to know how to build the ship so you do not you do not tell them. Oh, go gather wood and then, like, this is how you hammer things together. You just you just make sure that they yearn for the C. And then ultimately this is This is what drives the innovation. And here we have essentially with with, for example, Susak Capital radical enable people and they they practice the develops, they can practice, schedule and essentially align. This was this fast time to value practices, right? So that that is the tooling. And then you take weeks starts and then you put literally innovation into into those people's hands, for example, it So that's one big start allows you to bring up the whole environment and pretty much like minutes. Well, let's say if you want to go to innovate on the sisters again, you take big start and then well, is that the takes takes a little bit more involved. So maybe, Like like in an hour and 1/2 you have a safe environment, and then you have essentially start innovating there and >>excellent. Well, Mikhail and Julie thank you so much for the updates. You know, love hearing about innovation companies. Absolutely. Building is what differentiates us is the companies that are ready for today's modern era. So thank you so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >>Thank you, Julia. >>Alright. We'll be back with lots more coverage from SuSE icon Digital 20. I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>live from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering AWS executive. Something brought to you by extension. >>Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of the ex Censure Executive Summit here at AWS. Reinvent I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have two guests for this segment. We have Satya Adric, Carl Adder Gala. Sorry, He is the VP single family technology at Fannie Mae. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Satya >>glad to be here. >>And we have Dave Baldwin, VP Architecture, Cloud Engineering at Fannie Mae. Thank you so much for coming on the show D thanks >>for having us. >>So we're talking today about transforming the mortgage industry through through the cloud. Fannie Mae is obviously a foundational part of the US home mortgage industry, and it's been around for a long time. But at a time right now, where there is just so much tremendous change going on in the industry, particularly with the emergence of fintech and other push button mortgage providers, talk a little bit about the last 3 to 5 years. In terms of the changes, you've seen two to the business. You want to start? >>Yeah, I will. So So when we look at the industry changes. What Fannie Mae does is mostly in the secondary market, so our core business hasn't changed from the point of taking the lone synchronizing and selling. However, in the mortgage industry, when we talk about the bar or experience and then the lenders how they have improved the experience across the board, I think is it has been a huge shift right three years ago. The discussion has bean always about Hey, can we do more reliably? Can we do more faster? Right? Those were the conversations, but now the expectations off our lenders and bottles have significantly increased. Right now, they're talking about user experience. How can we meet our bar or where they are, Right. So the lenders have got a lot of expectations on us in terms of how do you feel? Feel that that is the first biggest change in the realm off several of these, right? The 2nd 1 ese, the data has become the currency now, right? It has significantly improved our posture around finding about, um, their assets that income, their employment. Right. So you guys may have seen a lot off David surgeon. It is a product that we have launched in that well, so data revolution has been a big change. And then how we're utilizing that to serve Margaret's industry, our lenders and borrowers, thereby we also reduce the risk within the industry. Right? So those two have bean huge changes. Then there is a technology revolution in terms off AP eyes, Microsurgery says. How do I plug and play? How do we reduce my cost when I'm locking a bottle or two alone? Right. And these are the things that are lenders have bean pushing us on right? Reduced the cycle from somebody coming to the application to taking a loan, closing alone and delivering to Fannie Mae. Shrink the timeline and in doing it, reduce our costs. Right? So these are being like more and more expectations Have bean really set from the border for a few from the lender point of view on Fanny me and all our innovation. Our transformation is all about meeting them and also setting standard for them. What is great in this industry and that's that's what has been going on in the last 3 to 5 years. >>Yes, and that you just laid out a tremendous number of trends and all this disruptive change when you were trying to meet these new expectations from your lenders and your borrowers. Dave. What? What are the in making this journey to, from to to say, I'm sorry from to the Cloud, How are you thinking about these challenges ahead at a time where the user experience is so important? Data is currency and this technology revolution, >>well, it's a big change and, you know, and it's a change across people, process and technology. So if you think about it, what we've done is we've started to trade a new operating model, which really is a lot more engaging, and and it requires an uptick, a scale and really ah, a new way of working right. We've even gone as far as to introduce lean management in a tools and processes. But if you think about it, the people definitely have to change. If you think about it from a process point of view, you're you're really looking at reimagining the way some of the mortgage industry works right, because there's a lot of demand for it. At the end of the day, the customer expectations and especially If you go all the way to the borrower, the customer expectations is very different. You know, they're very they they don't understand unnecessarily why they would have to fill out all this paperwork, right? When don't you already have the information? And to sati is point about data. That's why it's so important to get that data together. Because if we can harness it right, then we can truly start to re imagine these processes and make it so much easier for a borrower nor a lender to work together and eventually work with us. So and then finally, you know, from a tech point of view with the introduction of the cloud, you know, that new foundational sort of technology that really gives you something to pivot off, you can really you can really start to take advantage of the micro service architectures and the new technical capabilities that can help make this really right. And so that's That's generally how we look at our digital transformation and and as you start to think about prioritization, how do I move those? How do I think about the applications that are going to change and how they're gonna neither either Transformer moved to the cloud. You really start to think of you know what business value and I'm trying to achieve 1st 2nd 3rd right? And then what applications won't make it, You know, they're gonna be completely redone. And what applications? Frankly, we're gonna have to move along with it to manage some of the dependencies we're going. >>So I think one more point I wanted and Rebecca is that when we look at this B to B businesses, they're very tightly integrated, right? Our companies have been integrated when we are extending out information explained, extending the responses in the past. Anybody talks about experience, right? It is about Hey, there will be there are technological glitches, but you don't want to impact big. That's used to be the norm. Not anymore. I think when we look at now one of the top customer slate, if you blink from the infrastructure layer point of view, there is business loss. People are not just looking for resiliency anymore. People are looking for fault tolerance, especially when it comes to the top to your customers. Right. So I think we can see the underpinning off cloud and also how we architect our applications to meet that kind of need. It's not just about being resilient anymore. Gotta be. You cannot lose a transaction. But I think those things have bean more and more that we're hearing from our customer base, and we feel like the cloud journey is going to be underpinning for these types of expectations from our customers. >>So how do you work with partners like Accenture in AWS? When you embark on this journey and think through the your business imperatives and think through your strategy, >>I think when when we think about our partnership's. First of all, there are a lot of partners that we have and that we've had for years, as we as we really not only do digital transformation, but you got to run the business, too, while you're doing this transformation. And so you know, when you think about it, the way the wake centers worked with us is you know they number one have helped us with a cloud strategy. So that's a very hard thing to Dio because you think about all the different personalities in your organization and all the people that you have to bring together. You know what Accenture helped us with. It is to really level, said everyone and get everybody on the same page in terms of, you know, where we want to go on how we wanna head on this journey. The second thing that they helped us with was really the program management. So that's a huge undertaking to write and given the fact that it's very different and these are new things that we're doing in our firm. It's good to have that external expertise that that sort of done it with other companies and they can bring that to bear with eight of us. You know, eight of us is is one of one of the major providers that we're using. Thio post a lot of our business applications, and if you think about that there, you know we're taking advantage of their technology. We're leveraging some of their pro serve professional service is thio, help us get it right and help us sort of not only with the implementation, but in some cases the governance and control frameworks that are highly regulated. Organization like ours needs So >>and I think if you think about this from the scale point of view, right? Everybody knows there is war for talent, right? We use our partners in terms of how can we scale these things that are new operating models? New technological? Because there is a change curl in bringing up the entire employees based without extent, These guys can be catalyst. In addition to that, they can be scaled provided us, right. I think that's how we can I use these, But it is action generator B s. >>This morning during Andy Jassy fireside chat, he talked a lot about the importance of innovation and experimentation and trying different things. How What's the experience of innovation at Fannie Mae? How do you innovate with partners or just thinking about all of the changed expectations? How do you make sure you are trying to solve the right problems? Describe your process creative process >>again, I think, um, when we I think about this innovation process and how we do water in Fannie Mae right three years ago, it is about Hey, how do we get our employee base to think about the possibilities right on Veran bunch of hackathons innovation days so that you get excitement from the teams, but in the last one and 1/2 year. It's more about innovation that can reap benefits, right? So we call it as focused innovation. We have, ah, clear cut Enterprise Innovation team. And they're on some of these innovation days and whatever have you within the within the firm so that you get the ideas and we have a process called pitch. So all these ideas feeding to lack of a better time a funnel where we have this enterprise innovation groups actually scan through the I. D. S and then can identify what things we can use and where we want to put our innovation investments. Right. So there is, ah, set off funnel requirements and gates we go through to identify Hey, this is where we want to do. And how we do is that Fanny Me is a lot more design thinking shop, right? So customer is at the center of everything. So anything we do, we will have some sort of research first, right with the customers and then how that might push the needle such that it can reach different boundaries through innovation. Right? So our processes cultivated ideas from inside. Also, look at what is happening with the trends. We have a strong strategy group. They're gonna look at this and our innovation team is always on the hunt for Hey, what is happening in industry in the cutting edge, How do you bring these three dimensions and then come up with a bunch of ideas? And then we have a funnel process where we identified what moves? What's this? What stays? Because there are other things that are at play. Is this innovation ready for the market? Now? Does it have to wait that sort of There are so many dimensions that going to that. But we have a structure process, and we have AH, dedicated team who can manage is that yet uses the creativity of the employees to be able to participate in animation. I mean, that's how we have a wall this process from. Think of the possibilities, too focused innovation. >>I think there's one extra point as well, like when it comes to technology side of that, it's it's creating a safe place for people to experiment, right, So we have a sandbox, the environment that we've created, an Amazon there in eight of us, and what we're doing is we're actually releasing some of the controls. I mean, obviously there's security and compliance, but released some of the controls and and just put a few guard rails in place so that people can experiment safely and not impact our firm, you know, in a very negative way. So >>talk about your employees and how they received this, this major transformation, and how are you receiving feedback in terms of their productivity in their engagement with the process? Dave. >>So you know, I would say this. There are lots of different types of employees, right? And like I said earlier, we also have as we're building the new, we also have to continue to support what we're running. So So what we've done is we've actually rolled out on South. We'll talk about it more detail because his team rolled it out. But, you know, but we have rolled out some training. You know, we've created a change management process, an organization right. Working with our human resource is so that we can up left, you know, sort of skills. And that's what I think. What's important is you're not going to be able to find the people out there to do everything that you need to do right. What's really important is creating those opportunities to carry the people that you have in your organization along with you for the journey as they learn you benefit right as an organization. So but salty should talk about some >>of the training. Yeah, so I take your question in two parts one. Is that how the employee base is taking the message of this district transformation or don't have right again? We have a compelling vision and mission like people that fanny man, they what? They take pride in fulfilling the mission. That's that's the 1st 1 along the way, when we crafted our message around why we're doing this. That is a lot more compelling. It is meaningful for our customers, our employees, right? So I think the messaging has been very important. Then, when you look at the things that we're trying to do, our cutting edge right from the employee point, if you it is a lot of excitement, because that keeps them at the cutting edge of what is happening in the world that makes them more marketable, right? Naturally, people are excited about it, but like any transformation, right? There will be camps off who will come across the change car up front like they're catalyst. Right? And then there are some in the middle and summer can a lagging right? But when we look at the entire gambit off the employee base, majority off them are. Hey, we are on board with this. We want to do it. We want to learn, How do we get there? And the company has done several different things to help the employees through this kind of knowledge cover I would call rather than the change career. We have a whole bunch of training plans that we have laid out. People have been wall until early taking. I mean, maybe a classroom training, maybe a self, sir. Uh, type off, download this particular module and then kind of read upon it and then also provide them to practice them with the sandbox. Right? So all these things have been done. I think one challenge we had actually facing now is that we can train them up pretty easily if we haven't put them in a place to practice it. Then it kind of fades away. So we're now kind of trying to see. Okay, let's identify groups off people. Give them a tool where they can assess for them their own self. What I wanted to learn such that I can become that and then be eligible for doing that right so that now they learn. And then they're put in a role on a project that they can actually practice on. So we are in that posture of that right now. So I think, but employee base is really excited about this, >>So I want to. I want to end where we started where Sati described the myriad changes that are taking place in your industry and getting back to your your cause, which is helping the customer buy a home, get it, get it, get it more easily, qualify for a loan. Can you think about the customer experience of the home buying process 3 to 5 10 years from now? And how it will be different as Fannie Mae embarks on this on this cloud journey. Do you want to start David? Just think. Look into your crystal ball >>and it's great. I wish I had a crystal ball. That would be great, but but you know. Look, we're making significant advancements, you know, working, working with our customers, taking that customer first mentality. And, ah, and and, you know, the mortgage industry itself is right for a change. I mean, you know, and and we're in a good position to really help and drive a lot of that. So my expectation, if I were to look out, I would expect to see a world where you know that borrower experience gets a lot better. I mean, one of the things we've learned to our research is that you know what is it? 40% of people actually cry as they're going through the mortgage experience, >>and they're not tears of joy. No, it's actually, you >>know, tougher to get into a tougher to think through the mortgage process, you know, and really take that big leap than it is to, you know, our Cielo tells us all the time than it is to actually apply for college. It z, it's often on bigger life event our goal. How do we make that simpler? How do we make people have a much more pleasant experience? Right? Waken do that with our data. We can make sure that they don't have to fill out those amazing forms. Heck, find the information. Sometimes they don't have it. You know, we're in a better position, right? You know, really? Get Teoh. You know, I can't promise a single click experience, but we're all gonna try to aspire to that, because that's what the customers out there with their cell phones and their technology or used to right. So we've got to get at least somewhere close to being there. >>So in the bottle, it expedient sight. I think we can even now see one tap market. How do we get them right? I think that's probably not too far. It's probably within two or three years. That's if I were to think about that. But if you want to think about 5 to 6 years, 10 years, if I am an individual driving by a home and then take your phone and say, Hey, can I buy this home? That should be able to tell you this is your lender and then go. That's right. And again from Fannie Mae, a point if you re help the lenders and they helped the borrowers threat. So through this transformation, what we're doing is that set up an engine that can be nimble, that can move fast. That runs with the low investment so that if we were to pivot, do things testing, learn and then change your game. We are fully in the position to be able to do that, right So and however fast, fast, you can experiment, those many different ideas will come out, and then some of them will reap fruit. And all of these for two things, like for our customers. How do we benefit our company, Fannie Mae? And how do we move the needle in industry? I think these are the three things that we want to achieve through this transformation. And we're building an engine to be able to do those types of things. I wish I could say this is one thing we would do. That's not what we're trying to do. Being a position where we can move quickly, we can lead industry. We can set the standard and then make good for the good for the American house. So that's all stories. >>Exciting times. Thank you so much. Both for coming on the Cube. Satti on Dave. Thank you. I'm Rebecca night. Stay tuned for more of the cubes. Live coverage of the Ex Censure Executive Summit coming up in just a little bit.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's fourth year of coverage at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, we're here in San Diego, it's 2019, I'm Stu Miniman, my host for this afternoon is Justin Warren, and happy to welcome two guests from the newly minted platinum member of the CNCF, NetApp, sitting to my right is Matt Baldwin, who is the director of cloud native and Kubernetes engineering, and sitting to his right is Rob Esker, who does product and strategy for Kubernetes, and is also a forward member on the CNCF, thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, so Matt, maybe start with you, NetApp, companies that know, I've got plenty of history with NetApp there, what I've been hearing from NetApp for the last few years is, the core of NetApp has always been software, and it is a multicloud world. I've been hearing this message since before the cloud native and Kubernetes piece was going. Of course there's been some acquisitions, and NetApp continuing to go through its transformations, if you will. So help us understand NetApp's positioning in this ecosystem. >> In Kubernetes? >> Yes. >> Okay, so, what we're doing is, we're building a product that allows you to manage cloud-native workloads on top of Kubernetes, so we've solved the infrastructure problem, and that's kind of the old problem we're bored to death talking about that problem, but what we try to do is try to provide a single pane of glass to manage on-premise workloads and off-premise workloads, and so that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to say, it's now more about the app taxonomy in Kubernetes, and then what type of tooling do you build to manage that application in Kubernetes, and so that's what we're building right now, that's where we're headed with the hybrid multicloud. >> There's a piece of it, though, that does draw from the historical strengths of NetApp, of course. So we're building, we are essentially already in market a capability that allows you to deploy Kubernetes, in an agnostic way, using pure open unmodified Kubernetes, on all of the major public clouds, but also on-prem. But over time, and some of this is already evident, you'll see it married to the storage and data management capabilities that we draw from the historical NetApp, and that we're starting to deploy into those public clouds. >> With the idea that you should be able to take a project, so a project being in a namespace, namespace having an application in it, so you have multiple deployments, I should be able to protect that namespace, or that project, I should be able to move that, and that data goes with it, so that we're very data-aware, that's what we're trying to do with our software is, make it very data-aware and have that align with apps inside of Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Rob, maybe step back for a second, one of the things we've heard a few times at this show before, and it was talked about in the keynote this morning, is that it is project over company when it comes to the CNCF. Project over company, so it's about the ecosystem, the CNCF tries not to be opinionated, so it's okay for multiple projects to fit in a space. NetApp moving up to a platinum sponsor level, participated here, NetApp's got lots of histories in participating and driving standards, helping move where the industry's going, where does NetApp see its position in participating in the foundation and participating in this ecosystem? >> Yeah, so great question, and actually, I love it, it's one of my favorite topics, so, I think the way we look at it is, oftentimes projects, to the extent they become ubiquitous, define a standard, a defacto standard, so not necessarily ratified by some standards body, and so we're very interested in making sure that in the scenario where you want to employ this standard, from a technology integration perspective, our capabilities can operate as an implementation behind the standard. So you get the distinguishing qualities of our capabilities, our products and our services, vis-a-vis, or in the context of the standard, but we're not trying to take you down a walled garden path in a proprietary journey, if you will. We would rather compel you to work with us on the basis of the value, not necessarily operating off a proprietary set of interfaces. So Kubernetes, broadly perceive it as a defacto standard at this point, there's still some work to be done on rounding out the edges, a lot of it underway this week, it's definitely the case that there's an appeal to making this more offerable by, pardon the expression, mere mortals, and we think we can offer some help in that respect as well. >> Yeah, where is its usability? I mean, that's the reason I started stacked on cloud, was that there was a usability problem with Kubernetes. I had a usability problem with Kubernetes. That's what we're trying, that's how I'm looking at the landscape, and I look at all the projects inside of the CNCF, and I look at my role is, our role is to, how do we tie these together, how do we make these so they're very very usable to the users, and how we're engaging with the community is to try to align this, basically pure upstream projects, and create a usability layer on top of that. But we're not going to, we don't want to ever say we're going to fork any of these projects, but we're going to contribute back into these projects. >> So that's one concern that I have heard from some customers, which speaking of which, some of them yesterday, one of the concerns they had was that, when you add that manageability onto the base Kubernetes layer, that often, various vendors become rather opinionated about which way we think this is a good way to do that, and when you're trying to maintain that compatibility across the ecosystem, so some customers say, "Well I actually don't want to have to be too closely welded "to any one vendor, 'cause part of the benefit "of Kubernetes is I can move my workloads around." So how do you navigate what is the right level of opinion to have, and which part should actually just be part of a common standard? >> Think it needs to be along the lines of best practices, is how we do it. So, let's take network policy, for example, applying a sane, default network policy to every namespace. Defining a sane, default pod security policy, building a cluster in a best practices fashion, with security turned on, hardening done, where you would've done this already as a user, so we're not locking you in in any way there. So that's, we're not trying, I'm not trying to curate any type of opinion of the product, what we're trying to do is harmonize your experience across all this ecosystem, so that you don't ever have to think about, "I'm building a cluster on top of Amazon, "so I got to worry about how do I manage this on Amazon." I don't want you to have to think about those providers anymore. And then on top of those, on top of that infrastructure, I want to have a way that you're thinking about managing the applications on those environments in the exact same way, so I'm scaling, or I'm protecting an application on-premise, in the identical way I'm doing it in the cloud. >> So if it's the same everywhere, what's the value that you're providing that means that I should choose your option than something else? >> So, we do have, this is where we have controllers that live inside of the clusters, that manage this stuff for the users. So, you could rebuild what we're doing, but you would have to roll it all by hand. But you could, we don't stand in the way of your operations either, so if we go down, you don't go down, type of idea. But we do have controllers, we're using CRDs, and so our app management technology, our controllers are just watching for a workload to come into the environment, and then we show that in the interface, but you can just walk away as well, if you wanted to. >> There's also a constellation of other services that we're building around, this experience, that do draw, again, from some of the storage and data management capabilities, so staple sets, your traditional workloads that want to interact with or transact data against a block or a shared file system. We're providing capabilities for sophisticated qualities of persistence that can exist in all of those same public clouds, but moreover, over time, we're going to be, and on-premise as well, we're going to be able to actually move, migrate, place, cache, per policy, your persistent data, with your workloads, as you move, migrate, scale, burst, whatever the model is, as you move across and between clouds. >> How far down that pathway do you think we are, 'cause one criticism of Kubernetes is that a lot of the tooling that we're used to from more traditional ways of operating this kind of infrastructure, isn't really there yet, hence the question about, we actually need to make this easier to use. How far down that pathway are we? >> I'd argue that the tooling that I've built has already solved some of those problems. So I think we're pretty far down the path. Now, what we haven't done is open sourced all of my tooling, right, to make it easier on everybody else. >> Rob, NetApp's got strong partnerships across the cloud platforms, I had a chance to interview George at the Google Cloud event, I know you partner of the year, I believe, on some of these stuff, help us understand how some of the things Matt and the team are building interact with the public clouds, you look at Anthos, and Azure Arc, and of course Amazon has many different ways you can do your container and management piece there. Talk a little bit about that relationship and how, both with those partners and then across those partners, work. >> Yeah, it's, how much time do we have, so there's certainly a lot of facets to that, but drawing from the Google experience, we just announced the general availability of Cloud Volumes ONTAP, so the ability to stand up and manage your own ONTAP instance in Google's cloud. Likewise, we announced the general availability of the Cloud Volume service, which gives you the managed push button as a service experience of shared file system on demand, at Google, I believe it was either today or yesterday, in London, I guess maybe I'll blame that on the time zone conversion, not knowing what day it was, but the point is, that's now generally available. Some of those capabilities are going to be able to be connected to our ability from MKS, to deploy a on-demand Kubernetes cluster, and deploy applications from a marketplace experience, in a common way, not just with Google but Azure, with Amazon, and so frankly the story does differ a little bit from one cloud to the next, but the endeavor is to provide common capabilities across all of them. It's also the case that we do have people that are very opinionated about, I want to live only in the Google or the Microsoft or the Amazon ecosystem, we're trying to deliver a rich experience for those folks as well, even if you don't value the agnostic multicloud experience. >> Yeah, and Matt, I'm sure you have a viewpoint on this, but it's that skillset that's really challenging. I was at the Microsoft show, and you've got people, it's not just about .NET, they're embracing and open to all of these environments, but people tend to have the environments that they're used to, and for multicloud to be a reality, it needs to be a little bit easier for me to go between them, but it's still, we're making progress but there's work to do. >> Matt: Yeah, what's the question? >> Yeah, so, I know you're building tools and everything, but what more do we need to do, where are some of the areas that you're hopeful for, but where are the areas that we need to go further? >> So for me it's coming down to the data side. I need to be able to say that, when I turn on data services, inside of Kubernetes, I need to be able to have that workload go anywhere, because as a developer, I'm running a production, I'm running an Amazon, but maybe I'm doing tests locally on my bare metal environments, right, I want to be able to maybe sink down some of my data that I'm working with in production down to my test environment. That stuff's missing, there's no one doing that right now, and that's where we're headed, that's the path, that's where we're headed. >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, actually, 'cause one of the things that I feel like I heard a little bit last year but it is highlighted more this year, is we're talking a little bit more to the application developers because, Kubernetes is a piece of the infrastructure, but it's about-- >> It's the kernel. >> Yeah, it's the kernel there, so, how do we make sure we're spanning between what the app developer needs and still making sure that infrastructure is taken care of, because storage and networking are still hard. >> It is, yeah, I mean I'm approaching, I'm thinking more along the lines of, I'm trying to think more about app developers, personally, than infrastructure at this point. For me, so I can give you a cluster in three minutes, right, so I don't really have to worry about that problem. We also put Istio on top of the clusters, so it's like we're trying to create this whole narrative that you can manage that environment on day one, day two type operations. But, and that's for an IT manager, right, so inside of our product, how I'm addressing this is you have personas, and so you have this concept, you have an IT manager, they can do these things, they can set limits, but for the developer, who's building the applications or the services and pushing those up into the environment, they need to have a sense of freedom, and so on that side of the house, I'm trying not to break them out of their tooling, so part of our product ties into Git, so we have cd, so you just do a git push, git commit to a branch, and we can target multiple clusters. But at no point did the developer actually draft DAML, or anything, we basically create the container for you, create the deployment, bring it online, and I feel like there's these lines, and the IT guys need to be able to say, "I need to create the guardrails for the devs, "but I don't want to make it seem like "I'm creating guardrails for the devs, "'cause the devs don't like that." So that's how I'm balancing it. >> Okay, 'cause that has always been the tension, in that there's a lot of talk about DevOps, but you go and talk to application developers, and they don't want to have anything to do with infrastructure, they just want to program to an API and get things done, they would like this infrastructure to be seamless. >> Yeah, and what we do, also what I'm giving them is service dashboards, because as a developer, you know, because now you're in charge of your QA, you're writing your tests, you're pushing it through CI, it's going to CD. You own your service and production, right? And so we're delivering dashboards as well for services that the developers are running, so they can dig in and say, "Oh, here's an issue," or "Here's where the issue's probably going to be at, "I'm going to go fix this." And we're trying to create that type of scenario for a developer, and for an IT manager. >> Slightly different angle on it, if I'm understanding the question correctly, part of the complexity of infrastructure is something we're also trying to provide a deterministic sort of easy button capability for, perhaps you're familiar with NetApp's Nason ATI product, which we kind of expand that as hybrid cloud infrastructure. If the intention is to make it a simple, private cloud capability, and indeed, our NetApp Kubernetes service operates directly off of it, it's a big part of actually how we deliver cloud services from it. So the point is that, if you're that application developer, if you want the effective NKS on-prem, the endeavor with our NetApp ATI product is to give you that sort of easy button experience, because you didn't really want to be a storage admin or a network admin, you didn't want to get into the, be mired in the details of infra, so that's obviously work in progress, but we think we're definitely headed down the right direction. >> It does seem that a lot of enterprises want to have the cloudlike experience, but they want to be able to bring it home, we're seeing that a lot more. >> Yeah, so this turnkey on-premise, turnkey cloud on-premise, and, with NKS we can, the same auto-scaling, so take the dynamic nature of Kubernetes, so I have a base cluster size of say four worker nodes, right, but my workload's going to maybe need to have more nodes, so my auto-scaler's going to increase the size of my cluster and decrease the size, right? Pretty much everybody only can do that in the public cloud. I can do that in public cloud and on-premise, now. And so that's what we're trying to deliver, and that's pretty cool stuff, I think. >> Well there's a lot of advantages to enterprises operating in that way, because people out here, I can go and buy them or hire them, and say "Hey, we need you to operate this gear," and you've already done it elsewhere, you can do it in cloud, you can do it on-site, I can now run my operations the same across, no matter where my applications live, which saves me a lot of money on training costs, on development costs, and generally it makes for a much more smooth and seamless experience. >> So Rob, if you could, just love your takeaway on NetApp's participation here at the event, and what you want people to take away from the show this year. >> So it's certainly the case that we're doing a lot of great work, we like people to become aware of it. NetApp of course is not, I think we talked about this in perhaps other contexts, not strictly a storage and data management company only. We do draw from the strengths of that as we're providing full stack capabilities, in a way that are interconnected with public cloud, things like our NetApp Kubernetes service as really the foundational glue in many ways, to how we deliver the application runtime, but over time we'll build a constellation of data-centric capabilities around that as well. >> Matt, I would just love to get your viewpoint as someone that built a company in this ecosystem, there's so many startups here, give us kind of that founder viewpoint of being in this sort of ecosystem. >> Of the ecosystem... So this is, I came into the ecosystem at the beginning. I would have to say that it does feel different at this point, I'm going to speak as Matt, not as NetApp. And so my thinking has always been it feels a lot like, you're a big fan of that rock band, right, and you go to a local club, and we all get to know each other at that local club, and there's maybe 500 of us or 1000 of us, and then that band gets signed to Warner Brothers, and goes to the top, and now there's 20,000 people or 12,000 people. That's how it feels to me right now. I think, but what I like about it is that, it just shows the power of the community is now at a point where it's drawing in cities now, not just a small collection of a tribe of people. And I think that's a very powerful thing with this community, and like all the, what are they called, the Kubernetes Summits that they're doing, we didn't have any of those back when we first got going, I mean it was tough to fill the room, and now we can fill the room, and it's amazing, and what I like seeing is people moving past the problem of Kubernetes itself, and moving into what other problems can I solve on top of Kubernetes, so you're starting to see all these really exciting startups doing really neat things, and I really like, like this vendor hall I really like, 'cause you get to see all the new guys, but there's a lot of neat stuff going on, and I'm excited to see where the community goes in the next five years, but it's, we've gone from zero to 60 insanely fast, 'cause you guys were at the original KubeCon, I think, as well. >> It's our fourth year doing theCUBE at this show, but absolutely, we've watched it since the early days. I'm not supposed to mention OpenStack at this show, but we remember talking to JJ and some of the early people there, and we interviewed Craig McLuckie back in his Google days, and the like, so we've been fortunate to be on here since really day zero here, and definitely great energy, congrats so much on the progress, I really appreciate the updates on everything going, as you said, we've reached a certain state, and adding more value on top of this whole environment. >> Yeah, we're in junior high now, right, and we were in grade school for a few years. >> All right, well Matt and Rob, thank you so much for the update, hopefully not an awkward dance tonight for the junior people. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>>live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud. Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem >>Welcome back. This is the cubes. Fourth year of coverage at Q. Khan Cloud, Native Con. We're here in San Diego. It's 2019. I'm stewed. Minutemen, my host for this afternoon is Justin Warren and happy to welcome to guests from the newly minted platinum member of the CNC F Net Up. Sitting to my right is that Baldwin, who is the director of Cloud Native and Communities Engineering and sitting to his right is Rob Bhaskar, who's the product product strategy for Kubernetes. And it's also a board member on the CME CF, thank you both for joining us. Thank you. All right, s O, you know, maybe start with you. You know, uh, you know, companies that No, I've got plenty of history with net up there. What I've been hearing from that up last few years is you know, the Corvette has always been software, and it is a multi cloud world. I've been hearing this message before. Kind of the cloud native Trinity's piece was going, Of course, there's been some acquisitions and met up continuing to go through its transformations if you will s o help us understand kind of net ops positioning in this ecosystem >>in communities. Yes. Okay, so what we're doing is we're building a product that large manage cloud native workloads on top of community. So we've solved the infrastructure problem. And that's kind of the old problem. We're bored to death. Talking about that problem, but we try to do is try to provide a single painting class to manage on premise. Workloads and off permits were close. So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to say it's now more about the AP taxonomy in communities. And then what type of tooling do you build to manage that that application and communities and says what we're building right now? That's where we're headed with hybrid. >>There's a piece of it, though, that does draw from the historical strength of map, Of course. So we're building way have, essentially already in marketing capability that allows you to deploy communities an agnostic way, using pure, open unmodified kubernetes on all of the major public clouds, but also on trump. But over time and some of this is already evident. You'll see it married to the storage and data management capabilities that we draw from the historical NetApp and that we're starting to deploy into those public clouds >>with the idea that you should be able to take a project. So project being the name space, new space, having a certain application in it. So you have multiple deployments. I should be able to protect that name space or that project. I feel to move that and the data goes with it. So they were very data where that's what we're trying to do with our. Our software is, you know, make it very data. Where have that aligned with APS inside of communities, >>So maybe step back for a second. What? One of the one of things we've heard a few times at this show before and was talking about the keynote this morning is it is project over company when it comes to the C N C F Project Project over company. So it's about the ecosystem. The C in C F tries not to be opinionated, so it's okay for multiple projects to fitness face not moving up to a platinum a sponsor level. You know, participant here, Ned. It's got lots of history's in participating and driving standards, helping move where the industry's going. Where doesn't it up? See its position in, you know, the participating in the foundation and participating in this ecosystem? >>Yeah, So great question, actually. Love it. It's for my favorite topic. So I think the way we look at it is oftentimes, project to the extent they become ubiquitous, define a standard a de facto standard, so not necessarily ratified by some standards body. And so we're very interested in making sure that in a scenario where you would employ the standard from a technology integration perspective, our capabilities can can operate as an implementation behind the standard. So you get the distinguishing qualities of our capabilities. Our products in our service is Visa VI or in the context of the standard. We're not trying to take you down a walled garden path in a proprietary, uh, journey, if you will weigh, would rather actually compel you to work with us on the basis of the value, not necessarily operating off a proprietary set of interface. Kubernetes broadly perceive it as a defacto standard at this point, there's still some work to be done on running out the edges a lot of underway this week. It's definitely the case that there's a new appeal to making this more off herbal by pardon the expression mere mortals way. Think we can offer Cem, Cem, Cem help in that respect as well? >>Yeah, for us, its usability, right? I mean, that's the reason I started stacking. Cloud was that there was usability problem with kubernetes. I had a usability problem. That's what we're trying. That's how I'm looking at the landscape. And I look at kind of all the projects inside the C N c f. And I look at my role is our role is to How do we tie these together? How do we make these? So they're very, very usable to the users. How were engaging with the community is to try to like a line like this, basically pure upstream projects, and create a usability layer on top of that. But we're not gonna we don't want ever say we're gonna fork into these projects what we're gonna contribute back into these. >>That's one concern that I have heard from. Customers were speaking with some of them yesterday. One of the concerns I had was that when you add that manageability onto the base kubernetes layer, that often very spenders become rather opinionated about which way we think this is a good way to do that. And when you're trying to maintain that compatibility across the ecosystem. So some customers saying, Well, I actually don't want to have to be too closely welded to anyone. Vendor was part of the benefit of Kubernetes. I can move my workloads around. So how do you navigate What? What is the right level of opinion? Tohave and which part should actually just be part of a common sense >>should be along the lines of best practices is how we do it. So like, Let's take a number policy, for example, like applying a sane default network policy to every name space defying a saying default pod security policy. You know, building a cluster in the best practices fashion with security turned on hardening done where you would have done this already as a user. So we're not looking you in any way there, so that's we're not trying. I'm not trying to carry any type of opinion in the product we're trying to do is urbanize your experience across all of this ecosystem so that you don't ever have to think about time now building a cluster on top of Amazon. So I gotta worry about how do I manage this on Amazon? I don't want you to think about those providers anymore, right? And then on top of those on top of that infrastructure, I wanna have a way that you're thinking about managing the applications on those environments in the exact same way. So I'm scaling protecting an application on premise in the identical way I'm doing it in the cloud. >>So if it's the same everywhere, what's the value that you're providing? That means that I should choose your option than something else. >>So wait, do have This is where we have controllers and live inside of the clusters that manage this stuff for the user's so you could rebuild what we're doing, But you would have to roll it all by hands, but you could, you know, we don't stand in the way of your operations either. So, like if we go down, you don't go down that idea, but we do have controllers we have. We're using charities. And so, like our management technology, our controllers are just watching for workload to come into the environment. And then we show that in the interface. But you could just walk away as well if you wanted to. >>There's also a constellation of other service is that we're building around this experience, you know, they do draw again from some of the storage and management capabilities. So staple sets your traditional workloads that want to interact with or transact data against a block or a shared file system. We're providing capabilities for sophisticated qualities of persistence that can be can exist in all of those same public clouds. But moreover, over time, we're gonna be in on premises. Well, we're gonna be able to actually move migrate, place, cash her policy. Your put your persistent data with your workload as you move migrate scale burst would repatriate whatever the model is as you move across in between clouds. >>Okay, How how far down that pathway do you think we are? Because 11 criticism of proven it is is that a lot of the tooling that were used to from more traditional ways of operating this kind of infrastructure isn't really there yet. Hence into the question about we actually need to make this easy to use. How far down that pathway away? >>Why would argue that tooling that I've built has already solved some of those problems. So I think we're pretty far down. The people ride down the path. Now what we haven't done is open sourced. You know all my tools, right? To make it easier on everybody else. >>Get up, Scott. Strong partnerships across the cloud platforms. I had a chance to interview George at the Google Cloud event. New partner of the year. I believe some of the stuff help us understand how you know something about the team building. Interact with the public cloud. You look at anthems and azure Arkin. Of course, Amazon has many different ways. You can do your container and management piece there, you know, to talk a little bit of that relationship and how both with those partners and then across those partners, you know, work. >>Yeah, it's a wow. So how much time we have? So so there's certainly a lot of facets to to that, But drawing from the Google experience. We just announced the general availability of cloud volumes on top. So the ability to stand up and manage your own on top instance and Google's cloud. Likewise, we've announced the general availability of the cloud volume service, which gives you manage put fun as a service experience of shared file system on demand. Google, I believe, is either today or yesterday in London. I guess maybe I'll blame that on the time zone covers, not knowing what what day it was. But the point is that's now generally available. Some of those capabilities are going to be able to be connected to our ability from an ks to deploy, uh on demand kubernetes cluster and deploy applications from a market marketplace experience in a common way, not just with Google, but has your with Amazon. And so, you know, frankly, the story doesn't differ a little bit from one cloud to the next, but the the Endeavour is to provide common capabilities across all of them. It's also the case that we do have people that are very opinionated about I want to live only in the Google or that Microsoft of the Amazon, because we're trying to deliver a rich experience for those folks as well, even if you don't value the agnostic multi cloud expert. >>Yeah and Matt, You know, I'm sure you have a viewpoint on this, but you know, it's that skill set that that's really challenging. And I was at the Microsoft show and you've got people you know. It's not just about dot net, there's all that. They're they're embracing and opened all of these environment. But people tend to have the environment that you used to and for multi cloud to be a reality, it needs to be a little bit easier for me to go between them, but it's still we're still we're making progress. But there's work to do. Yeah, s so I just, you know, you know, I know you're building tools and everything, but what what more do we didn't need to do? What were some of the areas that you know you're hopeful for about a >>year before I need to go for the supreme? It's down. It's coming down to the data side like I need to be able to say that on when I turn on data service is inside of kubernetes. I need be able to have that work would go anywhere, right? And because it is a developer. So I have I'm running a production. I'm running an Amazon. But maybe I'm doing test locally on my bare metal environments. Right? I need I want to be able to maybe sink down some of my data. I'm working with a production down to my test environment. That stuff's missing. There's no one doing that right now, and that's where we're headed. That's the path that's where we're headed. >>Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because one of the things that I feel like I heard a little bit last year, but it is violated more this year is we're talking a little bit more to the application to the application developer because, you know, communities is a piece of the infrastructure, But it's about the Colonel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the colonel there. So, you know, how do we make sure you know, we're standing between what the APP developer needs and still making sure that, you know, infrastructure is taken care of because storage and networking they're still hard. >>It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm approaching. I'm thinking more along the lines of I'm trying to work about app developers personally than infrastructure This point on for me, you know, like so I have I give you a cluster in three minutes, right? So I don't really have to worry about that problem, you know, way also put Theo on top of the clusters. So it's like we're trying to create this whole narrative that you can manage that environment on day one day, two versions. But and that's for like, an I T manager, right? And society instead of our product. How I'm addressing this is you have personas and so you have this concept. You have an I T manager. They do these things that could set limits for the developer who's building the applications or the service's and pushing those up into the environment. They need to have a sense of freedom, right? And said on that side of the house, you know, I'm trying not to break them out of their tooling. So, like wait part of our product ties in to get s o. We have CD, you know? So you just get push, get commit to a branch and weaken target multiple clusters, Right? But no point to the developer, actually, drafty animal or anything. We make way basically create the container for you. Read the deployment, bring it online. And I feel like there's these lines and that I t guys need to be able to say I need to create the guard rails for the Debs. I don't want to make it seem like I'm creating guardrails for the deaths caused the deaths. Don't like that. That's how I'm balancing it. >>Okay, Because that has always been the tension and that there's a lot of talk about Dev ops, but you don't talkto application developers, and they don't wanna have anything to do with infrastructure. They just want a program to an A p I and get things done. They would like this infrastructure to be seamless. Yeah, >>and what we did, like also what I'm giving them is like service dashboards. Because as a developer, you know, because now you're in charge of your cue, eh? You're writing your tests you're pushing. If your c I is going to ct you on your service in production, right? And so we're delivering dashboards as well for service Is that the developers are running, so they dig in and say, Oh, here's an issue or here's where the issue is probably gonna be at I'm gonna go fix this. Yeah, and we're trying to create that type of like scenario for developer and for an I T manager, >>slightly different angle on it, by understanding that question correctly is part of the complexity of infrastructure is something we're also turned Friday deterministic sort of easy button capability, for perhaps you're familiar with them. That's nice. And a C I product, which we we kind of expand that as hybrid cloud infrastructure. If the intention is to make it a simple private cloud capability and indeed are not, a community service operates directly off of it. It's a big part of actually how we deliver Cloud Service is from it. The point is, is that if you're that application developer, if you want the effective and CASS on prom thing, Endeavor with are not a PhD. I product is to give you that sort of easy button extremes because you didn't really want to be a storage admin network at you didn't want to get into the be mired in the details of infra. So So you know, that's obviously work in progress. But we think we're definitely headed down the right direction >>for him. >>Yeah, it just seemed that a lot of enterprises wanna have the cloud like experience, but they want to be able to bring it home that we're seeing a lot more. Yeah. >>So this is like, this turn cheon from this turnkey cloud on premise and played with think has weaken like the same auto scaling. So take so take the dynamic nature of opportunities. Right. So I have a base cluster size of four worker notes, right? But my work, let's gonna maybe maybe need to have more notes. So my out of scale is gonna increase the size my cluster and decrease the size right Pretty much everybody only do that in the public cloud. I could do that in public and on premise now and so that's That's what we're trying to deliver. And that's nickel stuff. I think >>that there's a lot of advantages thio enterprises operating in that way because I have I people that here I can I can go and buy them, hire them and say way, need you to operate this gear and you, you've already done elsewhere. You can do it in cloud. You can do it on side. I could know run my operations the same across no matter where my applications leave, Which saves me a lot of money on training costs on development costs on generally makes for a much more smooth and seamless experience. So, Rob, if you could just love >>your takeaway on, you know, kind of net up participation here at the event and what you want people to take away off from the show this year. >>So it's certainly the case that we're doing a lot of great work. We, like people toe become aware of it. Not up, of course, is not. I think we talked about this and perhaps other context, not strictly a storage and data management company. Only way do draw from the strength of that as we're providing full stack capabilities in a way that are interconnected with public cloud things like are not a Cuban. Any service is really the foundational glue in many ways how we deliver the application run time, but over time will build a consolation of data centric capabilities around that as well. >>I would just love to get your viewpoint Is someone that you know built a company in this ecosystem. There's so many start ups here. Give us kind of that founder viewpoint of being in. They're so sort of ecosystem of the >>ecosystem. So this is how I came into the ecosystem at the beginning. I would have to say that it does feel different. Att This point, I'm gonna speak as Matt, not as now. And so my my thinking has always been It feels a lot like kind of your really your big fan of that rock bands, right? And you go to a local club way all get to know each other at that local club. There's, like maybe 500 of us or 1000 of us. And then that band gets signed a Warner Brothers and goes to the top it. Now there's 20,000 people or 12,000 people. That's how it feels to me right now, I think. But what I like about it is that just shows the power of the community is now at a point where is drawing in like cities now, not just a small collection of a tribe of people, right? And I think that's a very powerful thing with this community. And like all the where they called the kubernetes summits that they're doing way, didn't have any of those back when we first got going. I mean, it was tough to fill the room, you know, Now, now we can fill the room and it's amazing. And what I like seeing is is people moving past the problem with kubernetes itself and moving into, like, what other problems can I solve on top of kubernetes, you know? So you're starting to see that all these really exciting startups doing really need things, you know, and I really likes it like this vendor hall I really like, you know, because you get to see all the new guys. But there's a lot of stuff going on, and I'm excited to see where the community goes in the next five years. But it's we've gone from 0 to 60 insanely because you guys were at the original coupon. I think, Well, >>it's our fourth year doing the Cube at this show, but absolutely we've watched the early days, You know, I'm not supposed to mention open stack of this show, but we remember talking T o J j. And some of the early people there and wait interviewed Chris McCloskey back into Google days, right? So, yeah, we've been fortunate to be on here, really? Day zero here and definitely great energy. So much. Congrats. So much on the progress. Really appreciate the updates, Everything going. As you said, right, we've reached a certain estate and just adding more value on top of this whole >>environment. We're now like we're in, like, Junior high now. Right on were in grade school for a few years. >>All right, Matt. Rob, Thank you so much for the update. Hopefully not an awkward dance tonight for the junior people. For Justin Warren. I'm stupid and back with more coverage here from Q Khan Cloud native 2019. Diego, Thank you for watching Cute

(upbeat music) >> We're back at the ARIA in Las Vegas you're watching theCUBE's coverage of Veeamon 2022 live in person, but there's a big hybrid event going on. Close to 40,000 people watching online. This is the CEO segment. The newly minted CEO Anand Eswaran is here. And it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on. First time on theCUBE. >> Yeah, first time on theCUBE, excited to be here. Newly minted, those words, I haven't heard those for a long time. But thank you for the warm introduction, Dave. >> So why Veeam? What did you see that attracted you to Veeam? You have a great career, awesome resume. Why Veeam? >> A lot of different things. You know, it started with when I spent a good bit of time... I spent months with, you know, Insight, with Bill Largent who is now the chair of the board. And for me a few things, one, it started with the company culture. I absolutely loved... I spent time with our engineering team that it's an innovation-focused culture. It's an engineering-focused culture, which is so critical to any software company. And so that was the first place. And I spent a good bit of time with customers, reading, research, you know, brilliant products, always innovating. You know, even though it's a category you would think is fairly mature. I mean, when Veeam for example, did instant recovery. I mean, that was extreme innovation. And so that was the first thing which was appealing. The second thing was, you know, yes, we've reached a billion, but it still has that, you know, feel of a start up. It still has that feel of a... Jeff Bezos says this best, "A day one culture." Which is super critical, you know, we scale but you don't want to lose your soul and what made you special in the first place. And then you come down to the rest of the stuff, it's an execution machine. You know, it's an absolutely interesting category, especially in the day and the world we live in right now. You know, the proliferation of bad actors, security, backup, recovery, you know, everything you... Ransomware is starting to become you know, a meaningful threat to every company. So many different things coming together. This category is an interesting place. But that's not all, I feel that we are going to see this category evolve and shape very differently. You're going to see adjacencies coming and you're going to see in a couple of years or three years you're not going to just look at this and say, "Hey, it's backup and recovery." And so it's an opportunity to shape what is going to be a very important inflection point in this whole space. So a whole bunch of things. Excited about it. >> So flip question, why Anand? What did Insight see and the board see? What do you see as your key skills that they wanted here? Go after that opportunity- >> You should also get insight on this man. And you should ask them this question. I know Peter and Sokolov (laughs) >> So, you know, I don't know... I'll tell you where I think there's relevant experience is if I look at the future of Veeam. I think the first thing is we've got to think through what the next evolution of Veeam is. You know, there's a ton of work to do even in the path we are on, on data protection. And the team is absolutely brilliant at that. But how do you start to think ahead? How do you think about data management? How do you think about, you know, where are the adjacencies and how does it... How do you shape and reshape the category? You know, and I have some experiences in that. As I look at growth, Veeam has done a phenomenal job you know, 35,000 partners, an execution machine. I mean, just last year we grew ARR, you know, 27% we are sustaining that growth. But as I look ahead, you know there's huge opportunities to further accelerate our share in the enterprise to actually go work with creating multiple layers of partnerships beyond the very successful partnerships we already have. You know, how do you start to get GSIs in the mix? How do you start to get MSPs in the mix? How do you start to actually get to being a core part of the portfolio and platform of our primary storage partners, HPE, Pure Storage and so on. So reinvigorating and creating a multidimensional partnership strategy is key as well. And then just my experience in, you know I ran the enterprise for Microsoft and so those sort of experiences sort of are very relevant to our next step of the journey as well. And finally, you know I think the one thing which matters most for me and yeah, you realize... Again, I think we've forgotten what it means to have a microphone on. But culture, you know, I spent a lot of time in every company I've worked in, in contributing to the culture of what shapes and you know how do you create a purpose-led company and how do you get on that path? Which is a very, very important conversation inside Veeam. you know, and we already do that... You know, there's a huge focus on purpose. There's a huge focus on diversity. There's a huge focus on inclusion, but you know, the cultural aspect of Veeam attracted me to it. And I think my work and my passion for it attracted me to Veeam as well. So just a few of those things. >> Yeah, you speak from the heart, you can sense that. Dave and I were talking with Zias about platform versus product. Now you've got some experience with platforms, obviously, Microsoft, you know the amazing platform. RingCentral Zias brought up. And then I brought up HP, which actually never could figure out its software platform. So you've seen some successes. You've seen some, you know, couldn't ever get there. Do you see Veeam as a platform company? >> You know, the way I look at it is this. I mean, I may actually not answer your question directly but I'll answer the question. >> Dave: Okay. >> Which is, if you look at the biggest successes in the industry, call it Microsoft, Adobe now- >> Dave: Sure. >> Salesforce, eventually the path from a high growth startup to scale is platform and partners. That is the key. >> Dave: Ecosystem- >> So yeah. Platform and the ecosystem. So it all comes together. And so, yes, I mean, I think we already do that. I mean, we have a singular platform today for the multiple workloads we protect from, you know physical to cloud, to Kubernetes to the hybrid architectures the ability to actually, you know restore your data into any cloud, you know, back up from AWS restore into Azure or a physical data center. So we already have a robust platform in place but the scale or the growth from where we are a billion to the next set of milestones 2, 3, 5, 10 is going to be an absolute maturity and amp of platform partnerships ecosystem. >> That's a high wire act. When you talk about platform and scaling, you know, think about moving forward, when you have pressure to grow, often the easiest thing to grow is to acquire and add adjacencies that might not be as core to your core value proposition as they could be. How do you navigate that as you move forward in a world where... Look, Veeam was founded in an age when it was all about meantime between failure, recovery point, recovery time objectives. Now the big concern is malicious actors. So Veeam has been able to navigate that transition very well so far, but how do you do that? How do you balance that moving forward? This idea of platform is a desirous state to be in but you don't want to be a fake platform where you just glue a bunch of things on. >> It all comes down to thinking through where we see the world going from this point in time. How do you see technology evolving? How do you see the outside's, you know influences evolving. And when I say influences, it's, you know, just a euphemism for all the bad actors we expect to see getting even more active. So, you know, the way I think about it is either platform or acquisitions are not things you do piecemeal or point in time. It all needs to accrue to a larger strategy of how you create the ability for all of your customers to own protect, secure, you know their data and eventually create intelligence from it so that they can actually be proactive about it. So that, you know, if that's the thing, you know, our ambition is starting to become how do we sort of secure the world's data and help companies create intelligence from it so they can be proactive about it? You know, everything else sort of accrues from there the platform we evolve from the platform we already have, you know, stems from it. The acquisitions we may do, will do evolves from it. It all are... You know, its pieces coming together to the overall puzzle framework we've already created. >> Yeah. I have so many questions for you. And I want to get into a little bit of your philosophy, but before we do it, I want touch on the TAM a little bit more. You mentioned in the analyst discussion this morning that the market's fragmented. A lot of people think, "Oh, backup, storage, we'll just put it together. You know, Dell now or EMC brought it all together." But they're just dramatically different markets. You're seeing some of your competitors. One in particular is now kind of pivoting to security. It's an adjacency, but it's, yeah, I'm not sure you want to walk into that mess but it's clearly part of a data protection strategy. And you said you want your... My words, legacy to be a significant increase in market share, dominant position in the market. Even if it's number two, whatever, number one's nice, great. But much larger share than what is your 10, 12% today. How do you think about the TAM? It's so undercounted, I think. You know, we used to look at purpose built backup appliances, "Oh, it's a couple billion dollar market and it's a ceiling there." It reminds me of service management with ServiceNow. It's virtually unlimited TAM because it's data. How do you look at the TAM? >> How much time do you have? >> I know, I got so many questions- >> But I'll tell you this, right? You got to piece this question very carefully because I'll look at it in a variety of different ways. Number one, if you do nothing, if you just do nothing. I mean, today, as I shared in IDCs latest report last week we were joined number one, you know, for the first time we actually got- >> Dave: Yeah. Congratulations. That's a big milestone. >> That's huge, that's exciting. >> Dave: And that's revenue by the way. That's not licenses- >> Yeah. That's in share. But the thing is this, right? If, if you look at share, we are at 12%, you know as is the... You know, so 12% is not representative of how I think about number one. When you look at a market with a clear winner you expect to see 40 to 60% market share. So doing nothing is an opportunity to actually continue the path we are on which is taking share from every one of the top five significantly and growing as fast as we are. I mean, we are going to be on a path to, you know doubling our market share in the next two to three years. So there's share to gain doing nothing. And this is... You know what? This is the first and the most simplest aspect of TAM. Now layer in other aspects of TAM but just still stay in data protection. You know, talk about every single SaaS workload coming on. I mean, I shared 270 million Teams' users right now monthly actives. The TAM, if you were able to secure every one of those Teams' users and protect the data, I mean that's close to 6 or $7 billion. It's not factored in into any of the TAM numbers you see right now. Gartner talked about 13. You know, others talked about TAM being 40. I mean, but SaaS workloads, you know each of them are not factored in as much as it could be right now. So, you know, we are bringing in Salesforce, Microsoft 365. We secure 11 million paid users with Microsoft 365 backup. And so add all of them on, execute. We see a path to taking share and getting from here 12 to 25 to 40 and being an outsize number one. And then you'd come down to what you said, which is how do you think about adjacencies? Now, at Veeam, yeah, messaging is important, but unlike some of the competitors, we don't use words frivolously. If we say something, data protection, modern data protection, ransomware attacks, we mean it. And there's product truth behind it. We do not use frivolous security words to create a message and get attention and have no product truth behind it. That's where we are. We expect to see adjacencies come up. We expect Veeam to beyond execution and bringing in more SaaS workloads to look at the next layer of data management. We expect us to create partnerships which allow us to go do that meaningfully. And as time goes, you should expect us to be the prime influencer in reshaping this category with other adjacencies coming in. But we talk about it and there's product truth behind it. >> I wanted to get into your philosophy of management a little bit. I went to your LinkedIn recently and I loved the little graphic that you had. But I know a lot of people put up a picture of a pretty lake or mountains. I got theCUBE up there. You had a number of items. I wonder if I could read. You had a rocket ship, which was very cool. You had teamwork, you had innovation. I wrote down ABC, always be closing, Alec Baldwin. But everybody sells, I think is what it was and then keep it simple. >> Anand: Yep. >> I really like that. I mean, people going to... If they're going to evaluate Veeam they're going to go to your LinkedIn page. So tell us where that came from what your philosophy is as a manager. >> Yeah, no. So there's a few things and this is the philosophies which I put on is a meld of what I believe in and what Veeam believes in and has believed in for a long time which is life starts with a customer. For us, everything starts with a customer. You know, even the product creation philosophy 15 years back was, "Hey let's not just create some check marks and create a feature because someone, you know thought it's an important check mark to have." What is the value it creates for the customer? And is it different enough, unique enough, where, you know, it actually creates a moment where the customer sees the value impact their core business. That's where it all starts for us at Veeam. And then everything we do relates back to, "Is this moving the ball enough for our customers and for our partners and for our developers and users?" Everything comes back to there. Are we easy enough to do business with? You know, are we keeping it simple? Simple to use. A product should be really simple. It should be brain dead simple, you know are our processes such that, you know it's easy for us to connect with our partners, connect with our customers, connect with our users, you know it all comes back to keeping it really simple. And then, you know, I come down to a set of personal philosophies, which matters as well, which is, you know, how do we make sure that, you know, we used to say everyone is in sales, but we got to evolve it. Everyone is in customer success because we all know that it's not just the first sale which matters which was true 15 years back, what matters today is, yeah, the sale matters, everybody is there to sell. But what matters even more is the whole company rallies behind the customer's success at every step along the way. Because when you do that, you don't need to sell. You know, you get in through BBR and then we have a world of workloads to actually create value for the customer with, from, you know Microsoft 365 backup or, you know soon to come Salesforce backup cost. And we see that on net retention or, you know... And it's manifested in numbers, right? It's manifested in growth. It's manifested in net retention and it's manifested in NPS. I mean, Dave, I'm hugely excited about that, man. NPS of 80 where we are. I mean, you guys have been around for quite a bit. I mean, that's huge numbers. I mean, that's- >> Apple's- >> Apple was 76 or 77. And so eventually that is what matters more for me because it's... Share is important. And I'm excited about, you know, IDC saying, "You're joint number one." Hugely important, but that is a consequence. Growth is important. 25% ARR growth in Q1, super important but that is a consequence. What really matters is value for your customers. And the number one metric I look at is NPS, you know and NPS at 80, all the other things start to happen pair it with the engineering culture the innovation culture we have, long roadmap ahead. >> Veeam has made some... What appear to be, from the outside anyway, pretty successful acquisitions. Kasten is an obvious one. I remember it wasn't the first time I met Ratmir. It was maybe the third or fourth time we were at like a late night, Peter Bell party this Highland Capital at VMware. And we were walking down Howard Street. I see Ratmir and some of his colleagues, we start chatting. We, you know, got into a good conversation. I'm like, "What about an IPO?" He goes, "We're not doing an IPO. We don't need to do an IPO." And then several years later on theCUBE, he's like, "No, I'd be open to an IPO." And then of course the big acquisition happened. So you've got an opportunity here M and A obviously is a possibility. But what about the IPO in your future? Presumably, that's something Insight wants to do. What can you tell us about that? >> No, it's a great question. I was waiting when you were going to ask me that question. But this is what I would say which is, by the way, Veeam, at today's numbers, I mean, we shared numbers at the end of last year. 1.1 billion in ARR, 1.2 in revenues, 99.99% organic, right? You know, Kasten was the only acquisition we shared how Kasten is a blip at this point in time. And so the philosophy has always been organic. And as I look ahead, this is how I think about it. I think the pace of market change is going to be extreme. And so we will be a lot more open-minded, thinking about acquisitions for complimentary technologies which allow us to expand TAM and think about adjacencies, more to come there. IPO, see the good thing is this, a lot of companies want to enter the public markets to raise money, create liquidity. That's not the primary lens for us. And so the good news is that, you know we are incredibly profitable. We shared, you know, 30% EBITDA, you know, for 2021. So money is not the issue, but we do think that we entering the public markets is a good thing for a variety of other reasons, because when you are public and it comes with the, you know, transparency, which we believe we're already transparent. But it puts the focus on you. And that creates even better growth impetus. Especially as you go work with large enterprise customers they are a lot more amenable and you know and so we feel that it's a strategy of growth not a strategy of liquidity for us, but stay tuned. You know, I fully expect for something like that to happen sometime towards the middle of next year, to the end of next year. >> Yeah, we had a similar conversation with Frank Slootman they obviously were able to raise money. But wow, what a change since the snowflake IPO in terms of just the brand value. And again, so many questions. I thought your keynote was great, by the way. >> Anand: Thank you. I love the focus on, you know, ransomware, of course. I thought the bot jokes were great. Keep 'em coming. I mean, I really did enjoy- >> (laughs) Absolutely. >> It lightens things up. So thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate your time. >> Absolutely appreciate it, Dave and Dave. By the way, I mean, it's funny, I mean about, you know, Dave and Dave, Dave and David reminded me of Thompson and Thompson, guess which comic book they're from? >> Thompson and Thompson- >> Thompson and Thompson. I don't know. >> Don't know. >> Tin Tin. >> Oh (laughs). >> (laughs) So you got to go read up. You guys don't look anything like that, but Dave and Dave, was an absolute pleasure. My first theCUBE and look forward to many more to come. >> Love to have you back- >> Absolutely. >> All right. Thank you for watching. >> Thank you. >> Keep it right there. TheCUBE's coverage of Veeamon 2022, 2 days of wall to wall coverage here at the ARIA in Las Vegas, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering VMworld 2017. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to The Cube's continuing coverage of VMworld 2017. Day 2, lots of stuff going on. I'm Lisa Martin with my esteemed colleague Dave Vellante. >> Hey hey. >> Hey hey! I'm excited to welcome an old friend, Eric Herzog, the CMO of IBM, as well as Sam Warner offering management IBM software-defined storage. Welcome, guys! >> Well thanks, we always love to be on The Cube, always. >> Dave: Love the shirt. >> Thank you, I'm glad I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt again. >> Dave: Thank you for making sure you wore that, yeah. >> I think it's like my 25th time on The Cube with a Hawaiian shirt. >> Lisa: Oh you're like the Alec Baldwin of The Cube. (laughs) >> Lisa: Alright guys, so here we are- >> Dave: If we have the record, that is the same shirt you wore last year, isn't it? >> Yes, but I did clean it, Dave. (laughs) >> He wears it once a year. >> I've never had to ask anyone about dry cleaning on The Cube but there's a first time for everything. Alright guys, so here we are at VMworld. What's new with IBM and VMware? Kind of talk to us, Eric, from a marketing perspective. What's going on there? >> Sure, well the big thing is IBM and VMware have a very strong alliance across our entire portfolio. The Cloud Division has a big agreement with VMware that was announced with Pat Gelsinger and the head of the division last year, the Storage Division has all kinds of heavy duty integration with our VersaStack product, as well as in all of our all-flash arrays, and then Sam's team brought out a new backup and recovery product, Spectrum Tech Plus, which is optimized for VMware and hypervisor and cloud environments. >> Excellent. And that's one of the things actually thematically that we heard yesterday is that, you know, backup is hot. So tell us a little bit more about that hotness and how you guys are working with VMware to dial that- >> Dial that heat. >> Yeah, dial that heat up. >> Sam: Well it's actually, it's more than backup, right, it's about data availability, and ensuring your data's safe, data's the bloodline of your company now, right? Everything's moving toward cognitive and AI, you can't do that without data. Most of your data's trapped as a backup. And what we're trying to do now is make it really easy for people to get at that data and use it for other purposes. So first of all, making sure you're safe from things like ransomware, but also making sure you can get some value out of that data. Make it very easy to recover that data. >> So, lots of topics that we could cover there, I wonder, did you have one more and I want to jump in. >> I did. Just, Eric from a, as the CMO, from a messaging perspective now we've heard backup is hot, you've just kind of articulated that a little bit more, same with storage. From a conversation perspective, and you talked about the importance of data, Michael Dell talked about that this morning, that the data conversation is a CEO agenda. How is the conversation changing, and the position of IBM changing when you guys are talking to customers that, is backup, is storage a conversation around data that you're having with the C-suite of your customers? >> So, a couple things, and I've done storage for 32 years. EMC, IBM twice, seven startups, and the C-suite hates storage, including the CIO, but they do love their data. So they all know they need storage but when you talk about data, data availability, the resiliency of the data, the data always needs to be there, you don't even use things like data resiliency 'cause the CEO doesn't know what that is, so you need to say, so how'd you like it if you were in Star Trek, and Bones wanded you with a new healthcare wand, and it came back with no answer? (laughs) That's 'cause your storage is not resilient and it's not fast enough. So the data has to be available and it has to be fast. So we're moving to this world where everything is AI and everything is immediate. If your storage goes down and you're in dark trading, you just lost ten million bucks per second. So, but it's all about the data. So basically what we're doing is getting out of the storage conversation and talking about the data conversation. How data is used to optimize their business, and then you weave the storage in underneath as, well as you know if you've got a bad foundation to your building and the earthquake hits, boom. You building falls down. So data is that building, and storage is the foundation on which your data rests. >> I love this conversation, and I think you're right on. The C-suite, they hate storage because it's to them, it's just an expense, but I want to pick up on something that was one of my favorite interviews thus far this year. Believe it or not, it was the interview that you and Burris and Ed Walsh did in our studio in Palo Alto. And I wonder if you could add some color, and then Sam I want you to chime in. What I loved about that interview is you guys talked about digital business and digital business being all about data and how you leverage data. And you said something there, and I want to unpack it a little bit. Storage should not be just a dumb target that is unintelligent. it should be an active element of your data and digital strategy. >> Eric: Right. >> So what did you mean by that and how does IBM make it, storage, an active element of a data strategy? >> So the first thing you want to do is you want to make it all automated. You want to make it transparent to the user. So, whether it's in the healthcare space, I don't care what your business, Herzog's bar and grill? My storage is transparent. Okay I'm running a bar and grill, I don't have time to fool around with the storage. I need it automated, I need it fast, I need to see who's drinking what, how many cigars I can sell, I don't have time to fart around. Right? Storage can make that happen. So you've got certain CPU that's done on the server level or in the virtual machines, and then you've got to have storage that's intelligent. So, we're working on some products we're not ready to announce yet, but we've got some products that have built-in AI into the storage themselves. So things like, you can search in the storage instead of search on the server. How do like, be able to look at metadata and have the storage actually fetch the data not the server fetch the data, so the server's crunching, crunching, crunching, and the storage is smart enough to go grab the data on its own and then bring it to the server. Versus the server having to do that work. So all that's about making data more available, more resilient, and again, having smart storage not dumb storage. >> So Sam, when we were talking about backup it's how you say, it's not just backup, it's more than that. >> Sam: Right. >> Pick up on what Eric just said. How is Spectrum Protect more than just backup and playing into what Eric just talked about? >> Well a lot of things Eric was just talking about you don't necessarily, you're not necessarily going to be able to do all this analysis reporting, analytics on your production data, you don't want to get in the way of your critical workloads, so how can we make copies off to the side where you can do things like analytics, where you can do dev test, quickly build new applications, so we give the ability to have access to that data in a way that's not going to jeopardize your core applications as well. And of course, that data, you can't lose it, right? I mean, you've got to make sure it's protected. So we also offer you a very simple way to protect it, and very rapidly restore it. >> So, let's go through an example or use case. You mentioned ransomware before. >> Yeah. >> So a lot of people think okay I'll create an air gap, but air gap, in and of itself, you know, you watch these Black Hat shows, and they go, "Air gap is a joke. It's easy for me to get through an air gap." >> Sam: Right. >> So how do you deal with that problem? Presumably, you have insights and analytics that can help you identify anomalies, but I wonder if you can address what's the conversation like with your customers and how are you solving a problem like that? >> Well I think there's a lot of stages that would solve it. First of all, there's simple things you can do like have copies that are immutable, so they can't be changed, encryption can't go and encrypt a read-only volume, there is air gapping, which like you said there are ways around that, but then there's also, Eric touched on some of the metadata analysis. If you can find anomalies and changes in the metadata that are unexpected, you can take action and alert an administrator and let them know that something doesn't seem right, so there's a lot more work we're doing to introduce cognitive capabilities that can also detect that. >> One of the things actually that Pat Gelsinger said this morning, and this may have put a smile on your face when you said there's something you can't quite talk to yet is, companies have to integrate AI into their products. And machine learning. >> Eric: So, that's the plan at IBM, and we've already done some of that, we have some products that we've hinted at, that's product code name Harmony, and we've already done a public blog on that, a statement of direction, and that is our first step in implementing AI technology directly into the storage, again it's part of what I talked about a couple weeks ago when I filmed at your Palo Alto office, storage is not dumb anymore. I may be dumb, but storage is not. Storage is smart, storage is intelligent, storage is active not passive, and in the old worlds, when I started doing storage a long time ago, storage was just passive. Just a big brick. It's no longer a brick. It's a brain, and it thinks and it acts, and it relieves the CPU, and the other areas of your IT infrastructure from having to do the work, which is part of the metadata action that Sam talked about that we're working on and also this project Harmony that we talked about, is adding AI intelligence, things like Watson for example, maybe, but I can't quote me on that yet, but maybe we might put Watson inside of our storage, since we happen to own Watson, the dominant AI platform on the planet, we could probably put that into our storage. Maybe we will. >> So there's still a... okay why not? There's still a lot of dumb storage out there though. >> Yes. >> Huge install base. You actually probably sold a lot of it back in the day, so fixing the problem that you created, that's smart marketing. (laughs) But when you talk about the technical debt that exists, how do you go from point A to point B, going from that dumb storage to that active element? What's that conversation like with customers? >> So, it's actually pretty easy. First of all, storage refreshes every three to five years anyway. So now you can say, "Well you know the storage you had only did this, how about if we could do this, this, this or this, and really raise the bar?" The other thing of course is that IBM is the number one storage software company in the world, so anything we do is going to be integrated into the software side of our business, not just embedded in the storage systems we sell. And that software works with everyone's arrays. So that, if you will, artificial intelligence that we can bring to bear in an IBM Storwize or flash systems would also work on an EMC VNX2, would also work on a Dell Compellent, would also work on an HP 3PAR, would also work on this guy, that guy, and the other guy, because we are the number one storage software company in the world, for the guys that track the numbers, and all of this is being implemented into the software layer, which means it'll work with the other guys' gear. So we can take the old stuff I used to do at the evil machine company and make that stuff smart. >> What do you mean when you say you're the number one software company, because when you worked for that company you guys would always tell me, us as analysts, "Look, we don't really have any hardware engineers any more, we spend all our time on software, so we're a software company." You're talking about something different today, you guys leaned in to software to find, you've put your chips in, you did your billion dollar Steve Mills bet, what does it mean today to be a software company in storage? >> So for us, let's take all of our storage systems for example, FlashSystem V9 comes with Spectrum virtualized software, which works with over 400 arrays that aren't IBM logo. That software comes on that system. FlashSystem A9000 comes with Spectrum Accelerate, which is a scale-out block infrastructure that works both on-premise and in the cloud. Again, not just with our own gear. So we basically decided that, do we want to sell the full system solution? Sure we do. But if we sell the software only, that's fine with us, and remember, most of the big shops in IBM is exceedingly strong, enterprise to the Global Fortune 1000, and the Global Fortune 1000 down to those sort of, you know, one billion dollar company and up, most of them are heterogeneous anyway, so you're, if you're smart, and we think we are at IBM, to this effect, we made sure our software works with everybody else's gear. Spectrum Protect and Spectrum Protect Plus will back up any storage from any vendor, old or new, will go to any tape drive, will go to any cloud, we can automatically back up to the cloud, will automatically go to an object store, not just to our own object store, but other object stores. Will automatically go to disk or flash, so we've made it completely heterogeneous and, if you will, media and technology independent. And we're doing that across the board with all the IBM storage software. >> So that compatibility matrix, if I can call it that, is very important, has always been important in the storage business, but I feel like it's insufficient in today's cloud world. And let me tell you, explain what I mean and get your reaction. I'll start with Sam. So we've been talking all week about the imperative to not try to reform your business and bring it to the cloud, but rather to shape the cloud and bring cloud services to your data. And that's the right model, and now part of that, a big part of that, a huge part of that is simplicity. So we're here at VMworld, we're talking about backup and data protection, simplicity is fundamental. What are you guys doing in that regard, generally and specifically with regard to Spectrum Protect? >> Yeah, I think what you want is a very simple way to do data protection, and a methodology to do data protection that's consistent between your applications that you're running in your own data center and what you're running in the cloud. So you don't want to find out that, yeah your traditional applications that you've been you know, running in your data center for years are all protected, but it turns out all the new applications being built out on the cloud don't have the same rigor, aren't following the same standards, you're breaking your governance models, and you're at risk. So what you want is a simple way to manage both sides, you want a simple dashboard that gives you visibility to the entire environment in one space, so you know I've got 2,000 VMs, 1,800 of them are backed up, two of them aren't backed up, oh those are in the cloud, somebody didn't set it up correctly. You want to be able to see it very easily on a simple dashboard, and that's what we're bringing with Spectrum Protect Plus. >> Speaking of simple, Eric, last question to you, as the CMO, how do you make this message simple for a C-suite to comprehend and understand and help take them to the next level for them? >> Well for us, we don't even talk storage anymore. We just talk data, applications, their workloads and their use cases. That's it, and then you bring storage up underneath it, again it's the foundation of your data infrastructure, your data is the primary building, but if you don't have a solid foundation and, being from Silicon Valley and being from the '89 earthquake, when the earthquake hits, if you have a solid foundation, the building stays up, if you don't the building falls down. So, we lead with data, data, data, ease of use, simplicity, but really focus on what's your application, what's the workload you're trying to accomplish, what's the use case you need. And when you do it that way, you take the discussion away from being, "You're a storage guy." It's, "You're the data guy. You're the business guy." And that's how you have to pitch it. >> I like that. Hashtag data data data you heard it here first. (laughs) Eric and Sam, thank you so much for joining us on The Cube, I wish you best of luck and we'll be keeping our eyes and ears open for what's coming with AI and machine learning. Thank you for watching The Cube, continuing coverage live from VMworld 2017 Day 2, I'm Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante. Stick around, we've got more great conversations coming right back up. (upbeat music)

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Oracle OpenWorld 2016, brought to you by Oracle. Now here's your hosts, John Furrier and Peter Burris. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in San Francisco for Oracle OpenWorld 2016. This is SiliconANGLE Media's theCUBE, our flagship program We go out to events and extract the signal noise. Three days of coverage, wall to wall, ending up day one right now. Wrapping up amazing day. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Peter Burris. Our next guest is Senior Vice President of Oracle Cloud, Steve Daheb. CUBE alumni, great to see you again! >> I have four times, four time alum. >> (Mumbles) the MVP award for most times on theCUBE. You've been there almost for a couple years now. >> Yeah. >> Peter: Yeah, you and Alec Baldwin. (laughter) >> Yeah, less than two years, it's exciting. >> So you are working hard. Last time I saw you like, you have to be running harder. You're running harder. >> Yeah, we were in DC together. >> You've been running really hard, so congratulations. Saw the numbers, 70% growth percentage. Not numbers, I don't remember the eh, four billion. >> Numbers are getting bigger, percentages are still going up, so it's good. >> Percentages are double digits, but the real big thing is that you guys now are putting a dent into the awareness of Oracle being a viable and competing opportunity against Amazon Web Service. Larry Ellison said "Amazon, your lead is no more." Which was a headline in SiliconANGLE. So question, how are you guys continuing to differentiate yourself against AWS and Microsoft? >> I think there's three things. One is we differentiate when we look holistically in cloud. 'Cause you know you talk about cloud, and people define it in multiple different ways. Some say oh, Salesforce is cloud, or Amazon is cloud. And we define it as really requiring all three layers of the stack. So Software as a Service, which we can talk about. Platform as a Service, which is that core database middleware application development. And then the Infrastructure as a Service. And we're seeing at some points all these things are interrelated. When does past-op and IS begin? What's a discrete IaaS motion and how does that move to sort of production databases and different things? And so we first and foremost differentiate by looking holistically at what we're offering, and then sharing that we have a complete portfolio that's also open and provides choice to customers in terms of how to deploy it. >> Holistic, end to end holistic or holistic breadth? >> I think it's both. So we look at where we go deep into all layers of the cloud, and then we'll look holistically around a hybrid solution that allows people to deploy in cloud and on prem. And that's where we can differentiate with Amazon. So you know, at a technology perspective, Larry announced some incredible things in terms of we have the benefit of coming in and re-defining what an IaaS architecture looks like and provide scale and performance as well as cost. We provide choice in terms of, look, if I deploy something on Amazon, I can't actually move that back to what's on prem. You can't actually have isolated orphaned sort of instances on public cloud without tying that back to what's on prem. And then you just look at some of the database examples. It's a fork of an old code. I mean, it's not compatible with anything so I can run Oracle database on Amazon, I can run Oracle database on Oracle, I can run Oracle database in Microsoft. I can run Amazon on Amazon. I can't inter-operate with DV2, with SQL, with Oracle, with Teradata, so I think we're just sort of trying to demystify a little bit of what's going on out there. >> But one of the ways was talk about work loads moving between on prem, that's going to get that right 100% across the board. >> Absolutely. >> It's interesting, but I got to ask you. Larry Ellison said on the earnings call last Thursday after Safra and then Mark Hurd made their announcements and man, sounded like things were going amazing. The earnings call was like woohoo, oh my God, the Kool-Aid injection! Then Larry got on, but he said a really cool thing I wanted to just drill down on. He said we're not even getting started yet. We are playing the long game is what he's obviously saying. But he made a comment about Microsoft. He said Microsoft is already well into moving their install base and apps onto Azure. >> Yeah. >> And Oracle hasn't even begun getting started. Now, I'm sure you started, but implying significantly that a lot of the database customers and customers haven't really moved there yet. Is that true? How would you (mumbles). >> It's actually interesting, 415 Research just actually published a study and they said only 6% of workloads are actually running in public cloud infrastructure today. And IDC just actually put out a note that said only 6% around database and analytics. So I think we're actually showing up with the right solution at the right time. And we have 4,000 database customers, we're in a great position to move them to cloud. >> So is Larry right, that a large portion haven't moved yet, and Microsoft, larger have moved? >> Yeah, I think that the majority hasn't. I think that the analogy he was drawing is think about Microsoft that can move their office suite. Take 365 and move that to cloud, or things like SharePoint and move that to cloud. I think what he's saying is look at that analogy in terms of who's in the best position to migrate these database customers to cloud, and we believe Oracle is. And again, it is early days overall. There's a lot of noise about what the cool kids are out there doing, but when you think about it, 90% of these. >> The cool kids are making money. >> The cool kids are making money, Oracle is making money too. >> Of course, that's what I brought a (mumbles). You had a question, sorry to interrupt. >> Well yeah, no, really quickly. So in many respects, it sounds like what you're saying is that you can do what Amazon can do, but Amazon still can't do what you can do. >> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think we're coming out and saying look, if you look at it, the application layer, they don't have anything. And so again, we have core ERP, HCM, supply, sales, service, all these things that we've shipped it to cloud. We actually do 45 billion transactions a day and support 30 million unique users weekly on our cloud. We're a viable cloud. These are core financial systems that companies use to run their business. We've been running in cloud for a while. We have the PaaS layer, our database, our middleware, the analytics, the security, things like IOT, that's core to Oracle's DNA. And then yeah, you have this commodity compute infrastructure. If you look at Amazon, 86% of their business is still about commodity compute. So we can offer that for customers as part of the overall solution. And I know they've been talking about getting it to the database so I would say stay tuned to what Larry has to say tomorrow on that. But we believe holistically when you look at all the pieces, we provide that solution that those 95% of workloads that haven't moved to cloud yet actually really need. >> So that brings up a good point. Cloud world, you mentioned DC where we had your special event, theCUBE was broadcasting live in DC. There all up on youtube.com/siliconangle. >> Shameless plug, shameless plug. >> Of course, get that last minute in there. But I want to ask you (mumbles) you announced the Cloud at Customer >> Yeah. >> So what's the status of that, 'cause we get lost in the slew of announcements here at Oracle OpenWorld. What's the update? Doing well? Reaction from customers? >> It's doing really well. It actually solves a big, again, that problem we talked about. I want to consume public cloud services, but I might have regulatory data sovereignty sort of industry or it might just be my own internal governance that's not going to allow me to deploy that, consume public cloud services on somebody else's cloud, but I can consume it with Cloud at Customer. >> Is it a transition point, because they feel good about this, they get some stability with the Cloud on Customer? Is it a transition point, is it a fixture, is it a blanky? Is it their binky? >> I think it could be both. I think it could be a transition point. I think for some customers again, depending on where they are, where they live, what type of industry, what type of data we're talking about, that might be the way they're going to consume it. Whereas I have data sovereignty laws, I can't actually move anything to cloud unless those change, but it still allows me to consume cloud in a cloud-like fashion subscription basis. Same identical services that we have in our public cloud, but just have it behind their firewall. >> So today's announcements featured partners pretty strong, and Oracle's always had a pretty big ecosystem. It's one of the key reasons for your success. And a lot of the partners out there would like themselves to start getting into the cloud, by offering services to their customers using a lot of what you're doing from a standpoint of moving your enterprise customers forward. As Oracle looks out at the landscape, you see Oracle, AWS, you're going to compete aggressively for that. But also your partners are going to step up, and they're going to offer their own cloud services. What about your customers? Do you anticipate seeing branded cloud services from your customers as they engage their customers differently through digital means? >> Yeah, that's actually a great question. I do think, yeah, a lot of our customers actually have their own services that they provide to end users. And I would say first, to back up, I think again it's about providing choice to our customers so they can engage within Oracle. They can engage with our partners on not only our technology, but maybe how do I migrate to cloud? How do I consume it in different ways? Also take a more solutions-based approach. (intercom blares) So if I'm looking at. Aw, we just got hit with that. Are they shutting this thing down in a few minutes? >> No no, we're good. >> A 16 ton thing's going to drop on the table. >> What is happening here? >> The Monty Python foot is going to come down on us. >> That's right. >> I thought that was a CUBE announcement sort of coming up. >> CUBE, Steve Daheb is on theCUBE! >> We should be announcing that. So I think that again, enabling the ecosystem to provide solutions. And I think as customers provide their own branded solutions, hopefully that's based on Oracle Cloud services and it's something that they can just re-brand, maybe augment, customize, and deploy for their own customers. >> They're giving us the bell here, but I want to get one last word in, we've got a little noise factor going on here. >> This is alright, man. >> The Infrastructure as a Service really is the third leg of the stool here for you guys. Big push here, you have the SaaS business on the press release. Second year in a row, Oracle has sold more SaaS and PaaS than any other cloud service provider. I think Larry used the word combined. Not sure I agree with that, but I haven't looked up the numbers, so I haven't fact-checked that. But then the next one comes down here as the second generation infrastructure that does twice the compute, twice the memory, four times the storage, 10 times more IO, 20% in price lower than Amazon Web Services. It's a new opportunity for Oracle to layer on top of our rapidly growing SaaS and PaaS. How are you going to layer infrastructures on top of PaaS and Saas? Isn't it the other way around? >> Yeah, I think it, yeah, sort of how do you look at it. They're tightly integrated. There's different sorts of entry points for IaaS. There could be discrete compute, but we think ultimately we see a lot of pull through from PaaS. So I might be deploying Oracle database but I'm doing it on a non-Oracle sort of application here. So I move the database to cloud and I pull compute to support that. And then from a software perspective, as Mark would say and Larry would say, we actually when we sell SaaS, you know, Software as a Service, we're selling that full stack to go along with it. >> Well, put it this way, that a database buyer looks at IaaS and sees infrastructure. An applications seller looks at the database and sees infrastructure. And so as you said, it's really what your perspective is. Containers is going to make it even more complex. >> Yeah, I agree. But it's interesting, 'cause I think ultimately that's the more strategic way that this is going to be consumed. I don't think you walk into somewhere, you say hey, you want some compute? We got some compute. Maybe more on the storage archive position, but when you look at the application development, when you look at applications, when you look at migrating databases, I think that's where you're going to pull through the infrastructure, and so that's why we're focused on offering all three layers of the cloud. >> There's definitely a trend towards enterprise-grade cloud, I was seeing that here at Oracle and at VMworld. We were just at theCUBE there. You're seeing this shift, they're getting out of the cloud game, so they're a different strategy. But Pat Gelsinger when I asked, pressed him on Amazon Web Service, saying did Amazon Web Service kind of force your hand? He kind of called it the developer cloud. That's how he called the Amazon Web Services. But they have developers. So my question to you is what's the strategy for developers? 'Cause at the end of the day we're seeing, talking to the VC certainly that was just on, there's going to be a mobile explosion of enterprise developers for mobile, cloud, lot of white space. You guys have an ecosystem, you have PaaS that's developer friendly. >> It is very developer friendly. >> What do you do with developers? Give us the update. What specifically are you guys doing in market. >> We have a big focus you're going to see with respect to developers. We've had Java developers that have been an incredible community for years and we've been serving them for years. I think Judy, before Larry took the stage, announced Oracle Code, which is going to be a multi-city road show where can get together. We're going to provide them access to Oracle Cloud, allow them to develop in multiple type tools, which I think was an important part of the announcement as well. Larry's saying look, it's not just about Java. It's about Ruby, it's about Python, it's about Node.js, it's about having an open platform that supports all developers. Tools like application containers and some of the other things. >> How would you grade you guys now? Not well suited for developers? Certainly Java you have developer community. But in market when you bring it to customers, is there a developer program that you guys have in motion? What's in the market? >> We do have things in motion. There's a developer program today and we continue to expand in that community. So we move away from just maybe traditionally Oracle developers to a broader set of developers. I think giving them a robust enterprise-grade platform, that gives them choice. So you're going to see a lot, hopefully we'll see you guys on the road at some of these events. But we're going to go out. >> There's a huge demand for developers to create opportunity in the ecosystem. I know you got to go, better wrap up. Thanks for spending the time. >> No thanks, a great way to wrap up the day. >> Congratulations, I know you're running hard. You look great, nice watch again. Yeah, flash the watch. >> I just miss the pocket square that you guys had in DC, I got to get that right next time. >> Best dressed man at Oracle. We are here live at theCUBE in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris. Day one of coverage, three days wall-to-wall here live. TheCUBE, Thanks for watching.