>>Hey guys and girls, welcome back to Motor City, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier on the Cube's third day of coverage of Coon Cloud Native Con North America. John, we've had some great conversations over the last two and a half days. We've been talking about identity and security management as a critical need for enterprises within the cloud native space. We're gonna have another quick conversation >>On that. Yeah, we got a great segment coming up from someone who's been in the industry, a long time expert, running a great company. Now it's gonna be one of those pieces that fits into what we call super cloud. Others are calling cloud operating system. Some are calling just Cloud 2.0, 3.0. But there's definitely a major trend happening around how cloud is going Next generation. We've been covering it. So this segment should be >>Great. Let's unpack those trends. One of our alumni is back with us, O Rika Zi, co-founder and CEO of Aerio. Omri. Great to have you back on the >>Cube. Thank you. Great to be here. >>So identity move to the cloud, Access authorization did not talk to us about why you found it assertive, what you guys are doing and how you're flipping that script. >>Yeah, so back 15 years ago, I helped start Azure at Microsoft. You know, one of the first few folks that you know, really focused on enterprise services within the Azure family. And at the time I was working for the guy who ran all of Windows server and you know, active directory. He called it the linchpin workload for the Windows Server franchise, like big words. But what he meant was we had 95% market share and all of these new SAS applications like ServiceNow and you know, Workday and salesforce.com, they had to invent login and they had to invent access control. And so we were like, well, we're gonna lose it unless we figure out how to replace active directory. And that's how Azure Active Directory was born. And the first thing that we had to do as an industry was fix identity, right? Yeah. So, you know, we worked on things like oof Two and Open, Id Connect and SAML and Jot as an industry and now 15 years later, no one has to go build login if you don't want to, right? You have companies like Odd Zero and Okta and one login Ping ID that solve that problem solve single sign-on, on the web. But access Control hasn't really moved forward at all in the last 15 years. And so my co-founder and I who were both involved in the early beginnings of Azure Active directory, wanted to go back to that problem. And that problem is even bigger than identity and it's far from >>Solved. Yeah, this is huge. I think, you know, self-service has been a developer thing that's, everyone knows developer productivity, we've all experienced click sign in with your LinkedIn or Twitter or Google or Apple handle. So that's single sign on check. Now the security conversation kicks in. If you look at with this no perimeter and cloud, now you've got multi-cloud or super cloud on the horizon. You've got all kinds of opportunities to innovate on the security paradigm. I think this is kind of where I'm hearing the most conversation around access control as well as operationally eliminating a lot of potential problems. So there's one clean up the siloed or fragmented access and two streamlined for security. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree? And if not, where, where am I missing that? >>Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the life of an IT pro, you know, back in the two thousands they had, you know, l d or active directory, they add in one place to configure groups and they'd map users to groups. And groups typically corresponded to roles and business applications. And it was clunky, but life was pretty simple. And now they live in dozens or hundreds of different admin consoles. So misconfigurations are rampant and over provisioning is a real problem. If you look at zero trust and the principle of lease privilege, you know, all these applications have these course grained permissions. And so when you have a breach, and it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you wanna limit the blast radius of you know what happened, and you can't do that unless you have fine grained access control. So all those, you know, all those reasons together are forcing us as an industry to come to terms with the fact that we really need to revisit access control and bring it to the age of cloud. >>You guys recently, just this week I saw the blog on Topaz. Congratulations. Thank you. Talk to us about what that is and some of the gaps that's gonna help sarto to fill for what's out there in the marketplace. >>Yeah, so right now there really isn't a way to go build fine grains policy based real time access control based on open source, right? We have the open policy agent, which is a great decision engine, but really optimized for infrastructure scenarios like Kubernetes admission control. And then on the other hand, you have this new, you know, generation of access control ideas. This model called relationship based access control that was popularized by Google Zanzibar system. So Zanzibar is how they do access control for Google Docs and Google Drive. If you've ever kind of looked at a Google Doc and you know you're a viewer or an owner or a commenter, Zanzibar is the system behind it. And so what we've done is we've married these two things together. We have a policy based system, OPPA based system, and at the same time we've brought together a directory, an embedded directory in Topaz that allows you to answer questions like, does this user have this permission on this object? And bringing it all together, making it open sources a real game changer from our perspective, real >>Game changer. That's good to hear. What are some of the key use cases that it's gonna help your customers address? >>So a lot of our customers really like the idea of policy based access management, but they don't know how to bring data to that decision engine. And so we basically have a, you know, a, a very opinionated way of how to model that data. So you import data out of your identity providers. So you connect us to Okta or oze or Azure, Azure Active directory. And so now you have the user data, you can define groups and then you can define, you know, your object hierarchy, your domain model. So let's say you have an applicant tracking system, you have nouns like job, you know, know job descriptions or candidates. And so you wanna model these things and you want to be able to say who has access to, you know, the candidates for this job, for example. Those are the kinds of rules that people can express really easily in Topaz and in assertive. >>What are some of the challenges that are happening right now that dissolve? What, what are you looking at to solve? Is it complexity, sprawl, logic problems? What's the main problem set you guys >>See? Yeah, so as organizations grow and they have more and more microservices, each one of these microservices does authorization differently. And so it's impossible to reason about the full surface area of, you know, permissions in your application. And more and more of these organizations are saying, You know what, we need a standard layer for this. So it's not just Google with Zanzibar, it's Intuit with Oddy, it's Carta with their own oddy system, it's Netflix, you know, it's Airbnb with heed. All of them are now talking about how they solve access control extracted into its own service to basically manage complexity and regain agility. The other thing is all about, you know, time to market and, and tco. >>So, so how do you work with those services? Do you replace them, you unify them? What is the approach that you're taking? >>So basically these organizations are saying, you know what? We want one access control service. We want all of our microservices to call that thing instead of having to roll out our own. And so we, you know, give you the guts for that service, right? Topaz is basically the way that you're gonna go implement an access control service without having to go build it the same way that you know, large companies like Airbnb or Google or, or a car to >>Have. What's the competition look like for you guys? I'm not really seeing a lot of competition out there. Are there competitors? Are there different approaches? What makes you different? >>Yeah, so I would say that, you know, the biggest competitor is roll your own. So a lot of these companies that find us, they say, We're sick and tired of investing 2, 3, 4 engineers, five engineers on this thing. You know, it's the gift that keeps on giving. We have to maintain this thing and so we can, we can use your solution at a fraction of the cost a, a fifth, a 10th of what it would cost us to maintain it locally. There are others like Sty for example, you know, they are in the space, but more in on the infrastructure side. So they solve the problem of Kubernetes submission control or things like that. So >>Rolling your own, there's a couple problems there. One is do they get all the corner cases who built a they still, it's a company. Exactly. It's heavy lifting, it's undifferentiated, you just gotta check the box. So probably will be not optimized. >>That's right. As Bezo says, only focus on the things that make your beer taste better. And access control is one of those things. It's part of your security, you know, posture, it's a critical thing to get right, but you know, I wanna work on access control, said no developer ever, right? So it's kind of like this boring, you know, like back office thing that you need to do. And so we give you the mechanisms to be able to build it securely and robustly. >>Do you have a, a customer story example that is one of your go-tos that really highlights how you're improving developer productivity? >>Yeah, so we have a couple of them actually. So there's the largest third party B2B marketplace in the us. Free retail. Instead of building their own, they actually brought in aer. And what they wanted to do with AER was be the authorization layer for both their externally facing applications as well as their internal apps. So basically every one of their applications now hooks up to AER to do authorization. They define users and groups and roles and permissions in one place and then every application can actually plug into that instead of having to roll out their own. >>I'd like to switch gears if you don't mind. I get first of all, great update on the company and progress. I'd like to get your thoughts on the cloud computing market. Obviously you were your legendary position, Azure, I mean look at the, look at the progress over the past few years. Just been spectacular from Microsoft and you set the table there. Amazon web service is still, you know, thundering away even though earnings came out, the market's kind of soft still. You know, you see the cloud hyperscalers just continuing to differentiate from software to chips. Yep. Across the board. So the hyperscalers kicking ass taking names, doing great Microsoft right up there. What's the future? Cuz you now have the conversation where, okay, we're calling it super cloud, somebody calling multi-cloud, somebody calling it distributed computing, whatever you wanna call it. The old is now new again, it just looks different as cloud becomes now the next computer industry, >>You got an operating system, you got applications, you got hardware, I mean it's all kind of playing out just on a massive global scale, but you got regions, you got all kinds of connected systems edge. What's your vision on how this plays out? Because things are starting to fall into place. Web assembly to me just points to, you know, app servers are coming back, middleware, Kubernetes containers, VMs are gonna still be there. So you got the progression. What's your, what's your take on this? How would you share, share your thoughts to a friend or the industry, the audience? So what's going on? What's, what's happening right now? What's, what's going on? >>Yeah, it's funny because you know, I remember doing this quite a few years ago with you probably in, you know, 2015 and we were talking about, back then we called it hybrid cloud, right? And it was a vision, but it is actually what's going on. It just took longer for it to get here, right? So back then, you know, the big debate was public cloud or private cloud and you know, back when we were, you know, talking about these ideas, you know, we said, well you know, some applications will always stay on-prem and some applications will move to the cloud. I was just talking to a big bank and they basically said, look, our stated objective now is to move everything we can to the public cloud and we still have a large private cloud investment that will never go away. And so now we have essentially this big operating system that can, you know, abstract all of this stuff. So we have developer platforms that can, you know, sit on top of all these different pieces of infrastructure and you know, kind of based on policy decide where these applications are gonna be scheduled. So, you know, the >>Operating schedule shows like an operating system function. >>Exactly. I mean like we now, we used to have schedulers for one CPU or you know, one box, then we had schedulers for, you know, kind of like a whole cluster and now we have schedulers across the world. >>Yeah. My final question before we kind of get run outta time is what's your thoughts on web assembly? Cuz that's getting a lot of hype here again to kind of look at this next evolution again that's lighter weight kind of feels like an app server kind of direction. What's your, what's your, it's hyped up now, what's your take on that? >>Yeah, it's interesting. I mean back, you know, what's, what's old is new again, right? So, you know, I remember back in the late nineties we got really excited about, you know, JVMs and you know, this notion of right once run anywhere and yeah, you know, I would say that web assembly provides a pretty exciting, you know, window into that where you can take the, you know, sandboxing technology from the JavaScript world, from the browser essentially. And you can, you know, compile an application down to web assembly and have it real, really truly portable. So, you know, we see for example, policies in our world, you know, with opa, one of the hottest things is to take these policies and can compile them to web assemblies so you can actually execute them at the edge, you know, wherever it is that you have a web assembly runtime. >>And so, you know, I was just talking to Scott over at Docker and you know, they're excited about kind of bringing Docker packaging, OCI packaging to web assemblies. So we're gonna see a convergence of all these technologies right now. They're kind of each, each of our, each of them are in a silo, but you know, like we'll see a lot of the patterns, like for example, OCI is gonna become the packaging format for web assemblies as it is becoming the packaging format for policies. So we did the same thing. We basically said, you know what, we want these policies to be packaged as OCI assembly so that you can sign them with cosign and bring the entire ecosystem of tools to bear on OCI packages. So convergence is I think what >>We're, and love, I love your attitude too because it's the open source community and the developers who are actually voting on the quote defacto standard. Yes. You know, if it doesn't work, right, know people know about it. Exactly. It's actually a great new production system. >>So great momentum going on to the press released earlier this week, clearly filling the gaps there that, that you and your, your co-founder saw a long time ago. What's next for the assertive business? Are you hiring? What's going on there? >>Yeah, we are really excited about launching commercially at the end of this year. So one of the things that we were, we wanted to do that we had a promise around and we delivered on our promise was open sourcing our edge authorizer. That was a huge thing for us. And we've now completed, you know, pretty much all the big pieces for AER and now it's time to commercially launch launch. We already have customers in production, you know, design partners, and you know, next year is gonna be the year to really drive commercialization. >>All right. We will be watching this space ery. Thank you so much for joining John and me on the keep. Great to have you back on the program. >>Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. >>Our pleasure as well For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube Live. Michelle floor of Con Cloud Native Con 22. This is day three of our coverage. We will be back with more coverage after a short break. See that.

>>Hey, welcome back everyone to cube Cod's coverage and cloud native con the I'm John for your husband, David Nicholson cube analyst, cloud analyst. Co-host you got two great guests, KIPP alumni, Jerry Chen needs no introduction partner at Greylock ventures have been on the case many times, almost like an analyst chair. It's great to see you. I got guest analyst and Martin mal who's the CEO co-founder of Chronosphere just closed a whopping $200 million series C round businesses. Booming. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Hey, first of all, congratulations on the business translations, who would have known that observability and distributed tracing would be a big deal. Jerry, you predicted that in 2013, >>I think we predicted jointly cloud was going to be a big deal with 2013, right? And I think the rise of cloud creates all these markets behind it, right. This, you know, I always say you got to ride a wave bigger than you. And, uh, and so this ride on cloud and scale is the macro wave and, you know, Marty and Robin cryosphere, they're just drafted behind that wave, bigger scale, high cardinality, more data, more apps. I mean, that's, that's where the fuck. >>Yeah. Martin, all kidding aside. You know, we joke about this because we've had conversations where the philosophy of you pick the trend is your friend that you know, is going to be happening. So you can kind of see the big waves coming, but you got to stay true to it. And one of the things that we talk about is what's the next Amazon impact gonna look like? And we were watching the rise of Amazon. You go, if this continues a new way to do things is going to be upon us. Okay, you've got dev ops now, cloud native, but observability became really a key part of that. It's like almost the, I call it the network management in the cloud. It's like in a new way, you guys have been very successful. There's a lot of solutions out there. What's different. >>Yeah. I'd say for Kearney sphere, there's really three big differences. The first thing is that we're a platform. So we're still an observability platform. And by that, I mean, we solved the problem end to end. If thinking about observability and monitoring, you want to know when something's wrong, you want to be able to see how bad it is. And then you want to able to figure out what the root cause is. Often. There are solutions that do a part of that, that that problem might solve a part of the problem really well for a platform that does the whole thing. And 10 that's that's really the first thing. Second thing is we're really built for not just the cloud, but cloud native environments. So a microservices architecture on container-based infrastructure. And that is something that, uh, we, we have saw coming maybe 20 17, 20 18, but luckily for us, we were already solving this problem at Uber. That's where myself, my co-founder were back in 20 14, 20 15. So we already had the sort of perfect technology to solve this problem ahead of where the, the trend was going in the industry and therefore a purpose-built solution for this type of environment, a lot more effective than a lot of the existing. >>It's interesting, Jerry, you know, the view investing companies that have their problem, that they have to solve themselves as the new thing, versus someone says, Hey, there's a market. Let's build a solution for something. I don't really know. Well, that's kind of what's going on here. Right? It's >>That's why we love founders. Like Martin Marna, rod that come out with these hyperscale comes Uber's like we say, they've seen the future. You know, like there were Uber, they looked at the existing solutions out there trying to scale Promethease or you know, data dogs and the vendors. And it didn't work. It fell over, was too expensive. And so Martin Rob saw solid future. Like, this is where the world's going. We're going to solve it. They built MP3. It became cryosphere. And um, so I don't take any credit for that. You know, I just look fine folks that can see the future. >>Yeah. But they were solving their problem. No one else had anything. There's no general purpose software that managed servers you could buy, you guys were cutting your teeth into solving the pain. You had Uber. When did you guys figure out like, oh, well this is pretty big. >>Uh, probably about 20 17, 20 18 with a rise in popularity of Kubernetes. That's when we knew, oh wait, the whole world is shifting to this. It's not, no one could really it to just goober and the big tech giants of the world. And that's when we really knew, okay. The whole, the whole whole world is shifting here. And again, it's, it's sheer blind luck that we already had the ideal solution for this particular environment. It wasn't planned it. Wasn't what we were planning for back then. But, um, yeah. Get everything. >>It makes a lot of difference. When you walk into a customer and say, we had this problem, I can empathize with you. Not just say we've got solved. Exactly. Jerry, how do they compete in the cloud? We always talk about how Amazon and Azure want to eat up anything that they see that might, you know, something on AWS. Um, this castle in the cloud opportunity here. Okay. >>In the cloud. I mean, you know, we talked last time about how to fight the big three, uh, Amazon Azure and, uh, and Google. And I think for sure they have basic offerings, right. You know, Google Stackdriver years ago, they've done basically for Pete's offerings, basic modern offerings. I think you have like basic, simple needs. It's a great way to get started, but customers don't want kind of a piecemeal solution all the time. They want a full product. Like Datadog shows a better user experience, but full product is going to, you know, the better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door. So first you can build a better product versus these point solutions. Number two is at some scale and some level complexity, those guys can handle like the demanding users that current affairs handling right now, right? The door dash, the world. >>And finally don't want the Fox guarding the hen house. You know, you don't want to say like Amazon monitoring, you can't depend on Amazon service monitoring your Amazon apps or Google service monitor your Google apps, having something that is independent and multi-cloud, that can dual things, Marta said, you know, see a triage, fixed your issues is kind of what you want. And, um, that's where the market's skilling. So I do believe that cloud guys will have an offering the space, but in our castle and cloud research, we saw that, yeah, there's a plenty of startups being funded. There's plenty of opportunity. And that the scoreboard between Splunk Datadog and all these other companies, that there's a huge amount of market and value to be created in this piece. So, >>So with, at, at the time, when you, you know, uh, uh, necessity is the mother of invention, you're an Uber, you have a practical problem to solve and use you look around you and you see that you're not the only entity out there that has this problem. Where are we in that wave? So not everyone is at, cloud-scale not everyone has adopted completely Kubernetes and cloud native for everything. Are we just at the beginning of this wave? How far from the >>Beach are we, we think we're just at the beginning of this wave right now. Um, and if you think about most enterprises today, they're still using on, and they're not even in perhaps in the cloud at all right. Are you still using perhaps APM and solutions, uh, on premise? So, um, if you look at that wave, we're just at the beginning of it. But when, but when we talked to a lot of these companies and you ask them for their three year vision, Kubernetes is a huge piece of that because everyone wants to be multi-cloud everyone to be hybrid eventually. And that's going to be the enabler of that. So, uh, we're just in the beginning now, but it seems like an inevitable wave that is coming. >>So obviously people evaluated that exactly the way you're evaluating that. Right. Thus the funding, right. Because no one makes that kind of investment without thinking that there is a multiplier on that over time. So that's pretty, that's a pretty exciting place. >>Yeah. I think to your point, a lot of companies are running into that situation right now, and they're looking at existing solutions there for us. It was necessity because there wasn't anything out there now that there is a lot of companies are not using their sort of precious engineering resources to build their own there. They would prefer to buy a solution because this is something that we can offer to all the companies. And it's not necessarily a business differentiating technology for the businesses themselves >>Distributed tracing in that really platform. That's the news. Um, and you mentioned you've got this, a good bid. You do some good business. Is scale the big differentiator for you guys? Or is it the functionality? Because it sounds like with clients like door dash, and it looks a lot like Uber, they're doing a lot of stuff too, and I'm sure everyone needs the card. Other people doing the same kind of thing, that scale, massive amount of consumer data coming in on the edge. Yeah. Is that the differentiation or do you work for the old one, you know, main street enterprise, right. >>Um, that is a good part of the differentiation and for our product thus far before we had a distributor tracing for monitoring and metric data, that was the main differentiation is the sheer volume of data that gets produced so much higher, really excited about distributor tracing because that's actually not just a scale problem. It's, it's a space that everybody can see the potential distributor tracing yet. No one has really realized that potential. So our offering right now is fairly unique. It does things that no other vendors out there can do. And we're really excited about that because we think that that fundamentally solves the problem differently, not just at a larger scale, >>Because you're an expert, what is distributed tracing. >>Yeah. Uh, it's, it's, it's a great question. So really, if you look at this retracing, it captures the details of a particular request. So a particular customer interaction with your business and it captures how that request flows through your complex architecture, right? So you have every detail of that at every step of the way. And you can imagine this data is extremely rich and extremely useful to figure out what the underlying root causes of issues are. The problem with that is it's very bit boast. It's a lot of data gets produced. A ton of data gets produced, every interaction, every request. So one of the main issues are in this space is that people can't afford cost effectively to store all of this data. Right? So one of the main differentiators for our product is we made it cost efficient enough to store everything. And when you have all the data, you have far better analytics and you have >>Machine learning is better. Everything's better with data. That's right. Yeah. Great. What's the blind spot out. Different customers, as cybersecurity is always looking for corners and threats that some people say it's not what you want. It's what you don't see that kills you. That's, that's a tracing issue. That's a data problem. How do you see that evolving in your customer base clients, trying to get a handle of the visibility into the data? >>Yeah. Um, I think right now, again, it's, it's very early in this space of people are just getting started here and you're completely correct where, you know, you need that visibility. And again, this is why it's such a differentiator to have all the data. If you can imagine with only 10% of the data or 1% of data, how can you actually detect any of these particular issues? Right. So, uh, uh, data is key to solving that >>Feel great to have you guys on expert and congratulations on the funding, Jerry. Good to see you take a minute to give a plug for the company. What do you guys do? And actually close around the funding, told you a million dollars. Congratulations. What are you looking for for hiring? What are your milestones? What's on your plan plan. >>Yeah. Uh, so with the spanning, it's really to, to, uh, continue to grow the company, right? So we're sort of hiring, as I told you earlier, we are, uh, we grew our revenue this year by, by 10 X in the sense of the 10 months of this year, thus far. So our team hasn't really grown 10 X. So, so we, we need to keep up with that grid. So hiring across the board on engineering side, on the go to market side, and I just continue to >>Beat that. The headquarters, your virtual, if you don't mind, we've gone >>Completely distributed. Now we're mostly in the U S have a bunch of folks in Seattle and in New York, however, we going completely remote. So hiring anyone in the U S anywhere in Europe, uh, >>Oh, I got you here. What's your investment thesis. Now you got castles in the cloud, by the way, if you haven't seen the research from Greylock, Jerry and the team called castles in the cloud, you can Google it. What's your thesis now? What are you investing in? >>Yeah, it is. It is hard to always predict the next wave. I mean, my job is to find the right founders, but I'd say the three core areas are still the same one is this cloud disruption to Martin's point we're. So early days, the wave, I say, number two, uh, there's vertical apps, different SAS applications be finance, healthcare construction, all are changing. I think healthcare, especially the past couple of years through COVID, we've seen that's a market that needs to be digitized. And finally, FinTech, we talked about this before everything becomes a payments company, right? And that's why Stripe is such a huge juggernaut. You know, I don't think the world's all Stripe, but be it insurance payments, um, you know, stuff in crypto, whatever. I think fintechs still has a lot of, a lot of market to grow. >>It's making things easier. It's a good formula right now. If you can reduce complexity, it makes things easy in every market. You're going to seems to be the formula. >>And like the next great thing is making today's crappy thing better. Right? So the next, the next brace shows making this cube crappy thing. Yeah, >>We're getting better every day on our 11th season or year, I'm calling things seasons now, episodes and season for streaming, >>All the seasons drop a Netflix binge, watch them all the >>Cube plus and NFTs for our early videos. There'll be worth something because they're not that good, Jerry. How, of course you're great. Thank you. Thanks guys. Thanks for coming on it. Cubes coverage here in a physical event, 2021 cloud being the con CubeCon I'm John farrier and Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. To the cubes coverage here, coop con cloud native con 2021 in person. The Cuba's here. I'm John farrier hosted the queue with Dave Nicholson, my cohost and cloud analyst, man. It's great to be back, uh, in person. We also have a hybrid event. We've got two great guests here, the founders of deep fence, sham, Krista Swami, C co-founder and CTO, and said deep line founder. It's great to have you on. This is a super important topic. As cloud native is crossed over. Everyone's talking about it mainstream, blah, blah, blah. But security is driving the agenda. You guys are in the middle of it. Cutting edge approach and news >>Like, like we were talking about John, we had operating at the intersection of the awesome desk, right? Open source security and cloud cloud native, essentially. Absolutely. And today's a super exciting day for us. We're launching something called track pepper, Apache V2, completely open source. Think of it as an x-ray or MRI scan for your cloud scan, you know, visualize this cloud at scale, all of the modalities, essentially, we look at cloud as a continuum. It's not a single modality it's containers. It's communities, it's William to settle we'll list all of them. Co-exist side by side. That's how we look at it and threat map. It essentially allows you to visualize all of this in real time, think of fed map, but as something that you, that, that takes over the Baton from the CIS unit, when the lift shift left gets over, that's when the threat pepper comes into picture. So yeah, super excited. >>It's like really gives that developer and the teams ops teams visibility into kind of health statistics of the cloud. But also, as you said, it's not just software mechanisms. The cloud is evolving, new sources being turned on and off. No one even knows what's going on. Sometimes this is a really hidden problem, right? Yeah, >>Absolutely. The basic problem is, I mean, I would just talk to, you know, a gentleman 70 of this morning is two 70 billion. Plus public cloud spent John two 70 billion plus even 3 billion, 30 billion they're saying right. Uh, projected revenue. And there is not even a single community tool to visualize all the clouds and all the cloud modalities at scale, let's start there. That's what we sort of decided, you know what, let's start with utilizing everything else there. And then look for known badness, which is the vulnerabilities, which still remains the biggest attack vector. >>Sure. Tell us about some of the hood. How does this all work cloud scale? Is it a cloud service managed service it's code? Take us out, take us through product. Absolutely. >>So, so, but before that, right, there's one small point that Sandeep mentioned. And Richard, I'd like to elaborate here, right? He spoke about the whole cloud spending such a large volume, right? If you look at the way people look at applications today, it's not just single clone anymore. It's multicloud multi regions across diverse plants, right? What does the solution to look at what my interests are to this point? That is a missing piece here. And that is what we're trying to tackle. And that is where we are going as open source. Coming back to your question, right? How does this whole thing work? So we have a completely on-prem model, right? Where customers can download the code today, install it. It can bill, we give binary stool and Shockley just as the exciting announcement that came out today, you're going to see somewhat exciting entrepreneurs. That's going to make a lot more easy for folks out there all day. Yeah, that's fine. >>So how does this, how does this all fit into security as a micro service and your, your vision of that? >>Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I'll tell you, this has to do with the one of the continual conferences I would sort of when I was trying to get an idea, trying to shape the whole vision really? Right. Hey, what about syncretism? Microservice? I would go and ask people. They mentioned that sounds, that makes sense. Everything is becoming a microservice. Really. So what you're saying is you're going to deploy one more microservice, just like I deploy all of my other microservices. And that's going to look after my microservices. That compute back makes logical sense, essentially. That was the Genesis of that terminology. So defense essentially is deployed as a microservice. You go to scale, it's deployed, operated just like you to your microservices. So no code changes, no other tool chain changes. It just is yet another microservice. That's going to look after you talk about >>The, >>So there's one point I would like to add here, which is something very interesting, right? The whole concept of microservice came from, if you remember the memo from Jeff Bezos, that everybody's going to go, Microsoft would be fired. That gave rise to a very conventional unconditionally of thinking about their applications. Our deep friends, we believe that security should be. Now. You should bring the same unconventional way of thinking to security. Your security is all bottom up. No, it has to start popping up. So your applications on microservice, your security should also be a micro. >>So you need a microservice for a microservice security for the security. You're starting to get into a paradigm shift where you starting to see the API economy that bayzos and Amazon philosophy and their approach go Beanstream. So when I got to ask you, because this is a trend we've been watching and reporting on the actual application development processes, changing from the old school, you know, life cycle, software defined life cycle to now you've got machine learning and bots. You have AI. Now you have people are building apps differently. And the speed of which they want to code is high. And then other teams are slowing them down. So I've heard security teams just screw people over a couple of days. Oh my God, I can wait five days. No, it used to be five weeks. Now it's five days. They think that's progress. They want five minutes, the developers in real time. So this is a real deal optimum. >>Well, you know what? Shift left was a good thing. Instill a good thing. It helps you sort of figure out the issues early on in the development life cycle, essentially. Right? And so you started weaving in security early on and it stays with you. The problem is we are hydrating. So frequently you end up with a few hundred vulnerabilities every time you scan oftentimes few thousand and then you go to runtime and you can't really fix all these thousand one. You know? So this is where, so there is a little bit of a gap there. If you're saying, if look at the CIC cycle, the in financial cycle that they show you, right. You've got the far left, which is where you have the SAS tools, snake and all of that. And then you've got the center where, which is where you hand off this to ops. >>And then on the right side, you've got tech ops defense essentially starts in the middle and says, look, I know you've had thousand one abilities. Okay. But at run time, I see only one of those packages is loaded in memory. And only that is getting traffic. You go and fix that one because that's going to heart. You see what I'm saying? So that gap is what we're doing. So you start with the left, we come in in the middle and stay with you throughout, you know, till the whole, uh, she asks me. Yeah, well that >>Th that, that touches on a subject. What are the, what are the changes that we're seeing? What are the new threats that are associated with containerization and kind of coupled with that, look back on traditional security methods and how are our traditional security methods failing us with those new requirements that come out of the microservices and containerized world. And so, >>So having, having been at FireEye, I'll tell you I've worked on their windows products and Juniper, >>And very, very deeply involved in. >>And in fact, you know what I mean, at the company, we even sold a product to Palo Alto. So having been around the space, really, I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a foregone conclusion to say that attackers have become more sophisticated. Of course they have. Yeah. It's not a single attack vector, which gets you down anymore. It's not a script getting somewhere shooting who just sending one malicious HTP request exploiting, no, these are multi-vector multi-stage attacks. They, they evolve over time in space, you know? And then what happens is I could have shot a revolving with time and space, one notable cause of piling up. Right? And on the other side, you've got the infrastructure, which is getting fragmented. What I mean by fragmented is it's not one data center where everything would look and feel and smell similar it's containers and tuberosities and several lessons. All of that stuff is hackable, right? So you've got that big shift happening there. You've got attackers, how do you build visibility? So, in fact, initially we used to, we would go and speak with, uh, DevSecOps practitioner say, Hey, what is the coalition? Is it that you don't have enough scanners to scan? Is it that at runtime? What is the main problem? It's the lack of visibility, lack of observability throughout the life cycle, as well as through outage, it was an issue with allegation. >>And the fact that the attackers know that too, they're exploiting the fact that they can't see they're blind. And it's like, you know what? Trying to land a plane that flew yesterday and you think it's landing tomorrow. It's all like lagging. Right? Exactly. So I got to ask you, because this has comes up a lot, because remember when we're in our 11th season with the cube, and I remember conversations going back to 2010, a cloud's not secure. You know, this is before everyone realized shit, the club's better than on premises if you have it. Right. So a trend is emerged. I want to get your thoughts on this. What percentage of the hacks are because the attackers are lazier than the more sophisticated ones, because you see two buckets I'm going to get, I'm going to work hard to get this, or I'm going to go for the easy low-hanging fruit. Most people have just a setup that's just low hanging fruit for the hackers versus some sort of complex or thought through programmatic cloud system, because now is actually better if you do it. Right. So the more sophisticated the environment, the harder it is for the hackers, AK Bob wire, whatever you wanna call it, what level do we cross over? >>When does it go from the script periods to the, the, >>Katie's kind of like, okay, I want to go get the S3 bucket or whatever. There's like levels of like laziness. Yeah. Okay. I, yeah. Versus I'm really going to orchestrate Spearfish social engineer, the more sophisticated economy driven ones. Yeah. >>I think, you know what, this attackers, the hacks aren't being conducted the way they worked in the 10, five years ago, isn't saying that they been outsourced, there are sophisticated teams for building exploiters. This is the whole industry up there. Even the nation, it's an economy really. Right. So, um, the known badness or the known attacks, I think we have had tools. We have had their own tools, signature based tools, which would know, look for certain payloads and say, this is that I know it. Right. You get the stuff really starts sort of, uh, getting out of control when you have so many sort of different modalities running side by side. So much, so much moving attack surfaces, they will evolve. And you never know that you've scanned enough because you never happened because we just pushed the code. >>Yeah. So we've been covering the iron debt. Kim retired general, Keith Alexander, his company. They have this iron dome concept where there's more collective sharing. Um, how do you see that trend? Because I can almost imagine that the open-source man is going to love what you guys got. You're going to probably feed on it, like it's nobody's business, but then you start thinking, okay, we're going to be open. And you have a platform approach, not so much a tool based approach. So just give me tools. We all know that when does it, we cross over to the Nirvana of like real security sharing. Real-time telemetry data. >>And I want to answer this in two parts. The first part is really a lot of this wisdom is only in the community. It's a tribal knowledge. It's their informal feeds in from get up tickets. And you know, a lot of these things, what we're really doing with threat map, but as we are consolidating that and giving it out as a sort of platform that you can use, I like to go for free. This is the part you will never go to monetize this. And we are certain about disaster. What we are monetizing instead is you have, like I said, the x-ray or MRI scan of the cloud, which tells you what the pain points are. This is feel free. This is public collective good. This is a Patrick reader. This is for free. It's shocking. >>I took this long to get to that point, by the way, in this discussion. >>Yeah, >>This is this timing's perfect. >>Security is collective good. Right? And if you're doing open source, community-based, you know, programs like this is for the collector group. What we do look, this whole other set map is going to be open source. We going to make it a platform and our commercial version, which is called fetch Stryker, which is where we have our core IP, which is basically think about this way, right? If you figured out all the pain points and using tech map, or this was a free, and now you wanted the remedy for that pain feed to target a defense, we targeted quarantining of those statin workloads and all that stuff. And that's what our IP is. What we really do there is we said, look, you figured out the attack surface using tech fabric. Now I'm going to use threat Stryker to protect their attacks and stress >>Free. Not free to, or is that going to be Fort bang? >>Oh, that's for, okay. >>That's awesome. So you bring the goodness to the party, the goods to the party, again, share that collective, see where that goes. And the Stryker on top is how you guys monetize. >>And that's where we do some uniquely normal things. I would want to talk about that. If, if, if, if you know public probably for 30 seconds or so unique things we do in industry, which is basically being able to monitor what comes in, what goes out and what changes across time and space, because look, most of the modern attacks evolve over time and space, right? So you go to be able to see things like this. Here's a party structure, which has a vulnerability threats. Mapper told you that to strike. And what it does is it tells you a bunch of stress has a vulnerable again, know that somebody is sending a Melissa's HTP request, which has a malicious payload. And you know what, tomorrow there's a file system change. And there is outbound connection going to some funny place. That is the part that we're wanting this. >>Yeah. And you give away the tool to identify the threats and sell the hammer. >>That's giving you protection. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I love you guys love this product. I love how you're doing it. I got to ask you to define what is security as a microservice. >>So security is a microservice is a deployment modality for us. So defense, what defense has is one console. So defense is currently self posted by the customers within the infrastructure going forward. We'll also be launching a SAS version, the cloud version of it. But what happens as part of this deployment is they're running the management console, which is the gooey, and then a tiny sensor, which is collecting telemetric that is deployed as a microservice is what I'm saying. So you've got 10 containers running defenses level of container. That's, that's an eight or the Microsoft risk. And it utilizes, uh, EDP F you know, for tracing and all that stuff. Yeah. >>Awesome. Well, I think this is the beginning of a shift in the industry. You start to see dev ops and cloud native technologies become the operating model, not just dev dev ops are now in play and infrastructure as code, which is the ethos of a cloud generation is security is code. That's true. That's what you guys are doing. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. Absolutely breaking news here in the queue, obviously great stuff. Open source continues to grow and win in the new model. Collaboration is the cube bringing you all the cover day one, the three days. I'm Jennifer, your host with Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching.

>>Oh, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. I'm John is the Cuba, David Nicholson, our cloud host analyst, and it's exciting to be back in person in event. So we're back. It's been two years with the cube con and Linux foundation. So scrape, it was a hybrid event and we have a great guest here, Cuban London, Nick Dirk, and CT field CTO of harness and harness.io. The URL love the.io. Good to see you. >>Thank you guys for having me on. I genuinely appreciate >>It. Thanks for coming on. You were a part of our AWS startup showcase, which you guys were featured as a fast growing mature company, uh, as cloud scales, you guys have been doing extremely well. So congratulations. But now we're in reality now, right? So, okay. Cloud native has kind of like, okay, we don't have to sell it anymore. People buying into it. Um, and now operationalizing it with cloud operations, which means you're running stuff, applications and infrastructure is code and it costs money. Yeah. Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, repatriated from the cloud. So there's a lot of, there's some cost conversations starting to happen. This is what you guys are in the middle of. >>Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting is when you think about it today, we want to shift left. When you want to empower all the engineers, we want to empower people. We're not giving them the data they need, right. They get a call from the CFO 30 days later, as opposed to actually being able to look at what change I did and how it actually affected. And this is what we're bringing in. Allowing people to have is now really empowering. So throughout the whole software delivery life cycle from CGI continuous integration, continuous delivery feature flagging, and even bringing cost modeling and in cloud cost management. And even then being able to shut down, shut down the services that you're not using, how much of that is waste. We talk about it. Every single cloud conference it's how much is waste. And so being able to actually turn those on, use those accordingly and then take advantage of even the cheapest instances when you should. That's really what >>It's so funny. People almost trip over dollars to pick up pennies in the cloud business because they're so focused on innovation that they think, okay, we've got to just innovate at all costs, but at some point you can make it productive for the developers in process in the pipeline to actually manage that. >>That's exactly it. I mean, if you think about it to me in order to breach state continuous delivery, we have to automate everything. Right. But that doesn't mean stop at just delivering, you know, to production. That means to customer, which means we've got to make them happy, but then ultimately all of those resources in dev and QA and staging and UAT, we've sticker those as well. And if we're not being mindful of it, the costs are astronomical, right. And we've seen it time and time again with every company you see, you've seen every article about how they've blown through all their budgets. So bring it to the people that can affect change. That's really the difference, making it visible, looking at it. In-depth not just at the cloud level and all the spend there, but also even at the, uh, thinking about it, the Kubernetes level down to the containers, the pods and understanding where are the resources even inside of the clusters and bringing that as an aggregate, not just for visibility and, and giving recommendations, but now more importantly, because part of a pipeline start taking action. That's where it's interesting. It's not just about being able to see it and understand it and hope, right? Hope is not a strategy acting upon it is what makes it valuable. And that's part of the automate everything. >>Yeah. We'll let that at the Dawn of the age of DevOps, uh, there was a huge incentive for a developer just to get their job done, to seize control of infrastructure, the idea of infrastructure as code, you know, and it's, it's, you know, w when it was being born, it's a fantastic, I've always wondered though, you know, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want all of that responsibility? So we've got responsibility from a compliance and security perspective and of course cost. So, so where do we, where do we go from here, I guess is the question. Yeah. So >>When we look at building this all together, I think when we think about software delivery, everybody wants to go fast. We start with velocity, right? Everybody says, that's where I want to go. And to your point with governance compliance, the next roadblock to hit is weight. In order to go fast, I have to do it appropriately. I've got governing bodies that tell me how this has to work. And that becomes a challenge. >>It slows it down too. It doesn't, I mean, basically people are getting pissed off, right? This is, this general sentiment is, is that developers are moving fast with their code. And then they have to stop. Compliance has to give the green light sometimes days, correct? Uh, it used to be weeks now. It's days, it's still unacceptable. So there's like this always been that tension to the security groups or say it, or finance was like slow down and they actually want to go faster. So that has to be policy-based something. Yep. This is the future. What is your take on that? >>Take on, this is pretty simple. When everybody talks about people, process and technology, it's kind of bogus, right? It's all about confidence. If you're confident that your developers can deploy appropriately and they're not going to do something wrong, you'll let them to play all the time. Well, that requires process. But if you have tooling that literally guarantees your governance, make sure that at no point in time, can any of your developers actually do something wrong. Now you have, >>That's the key. That's the key. That's the key because you're giving them a policy-based guardrails to execute in their programs >>And that's it. So now you can free up all those pieces. So all those bottlenecks, all those waiting all those time, and this is how all of our customers, they move from, you know, change advisory boards that approve deployments. >>Can you give us some, give us some, give us some, uh, customer anecdotal examples of this inaction and kind of the love letters you get, or, or the customer you take us through a use case of how it all. >>So this is one of my favorites. So NCR national cash register. If you slide a credit card at like a Chick-fil-A or a Safeway, right? Um, traditional technology. But what was interesting is they went from doing PCI audit, which would take seven days to go to a PCI audit right now with harness, because, >>And by the way, when you and the seventh, six day, the things that you did on day one change. >>Exactly, exactly. And so now, because of using harness and everything's audited, and all the changes are, are controlled to make sure that developers again, can only do what they're allowed. They only get to broadcast two per production. If they've met all their security requirements, all their compliance, permits, all their quality checks. Now, because of that, they literally gave a re read only view of harness to their auditor. And in three hours it was over. And it's because now we're that evidence file from code commit through to production. Yeah. It's there for point of sale compliant. >>So what is the benefits to them? What's the result saves them time, saves the money. What's the good, the free up more times. I'll see the chops it down. That's the key. >>Yeah. It's actually something we didn't build in like our ROI calculators, which was, we talked to their engineers and we gave them their nights and their weekends back, which I thought was amazing. But Thursday night, when we're doing that deploy, they don't have to be up. Harness is actually managing and understanding, using machine learning to understand what normal looks like. So they don't have to, they don't have to sit and look at the knock or sit in the war room and eat the free pizza. Yeah. Right. And then when those things break, same concept rates aren't as good. So >>I got to ask you, I got you here. You know, as the software development delivery lifecycle is radically being overhauled right now, which people generally agree that that's the case, the old models are, are different. How do you see your vision around AI and automation playing into this? Because you could say, okay, we're going to have different kinds of coding styles. This batch has got an AI block here. It's very Lego block. Like yep. Okay. Services and higher level services in the cloud. What's your reaction to how this impacts automation and >>Sure. So throughout our entire platform, we've designed our AI to take care of the worst parts of anyone's job as Guinea dev ops person. If they love babysitting deployments, they don't harness handles that for them, ask your engineers that they love sitting there waiting for their tests to run. Every time they build, they go get coffee, right. Because we're waiting for all of our tests to run. Y yeah. Right. The reality >>Is sometimes they have to wait days and >>That's it. But like, if I change the gas cap on, uh, on your car, would you expect me to check every light switch and every electronic piece? No. Well, why do we do that with code? And so our AI, our ML is designed to remove all the things that people hate. It's not to remove people's jobs. It's actually to make their jobs much better. >>How do you guys feed the data? What's the training algorithm for that? How does that work? Yeah, >>Actually, it's interesting. A lot of people think it's going to take a ton of time to figure this out. The good news is we start seeing this on the second deployment. On the second bill, we have to have a baseline of what good looks like, and that's where it starts. And it goes from there. And by the way, this isn't a lot of people say AI, and this AML, I teach a class on this because ML is not standard deviation. It's not some checks. So we use a massive amount of machine learning, but we have neural networks to think about things like engineers do. Like if we looked at a log and I saw the same log with two different user IDs, you and I would know, well, it's the same thing. It's just different users, but machine learning models. Don't so we've got to build neural networks to actually think like humans. So that, >>So that's the whole expectation maximization kind of concept of people talk about, >>Well, and that's it because at the end of the day, we're like I said, I'm not trying to take people's jobs. I want to meet. >>Yeah. You want to do the crap work out of the way. And I had to do other redundant, heavy lifting that they have to do every single time we use the cloud way. We've >>Built mechanical muscle in, in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And it made everyone's jobs easier, allowed them to do more with their time. That's exactly what we're doing here. >>I mean, we've seen the big old guys in the industry trying to evolve. You got the hot startups coming out. So you got, you know, adapt or die as classic thing. We've been saying for many years, David on the cube, you know that. So it's like, this is a moment of truth. We're going to see who comes out the other side. How do you, Nick, what would you be your, your kind of guess of when that other side is, when are we gonna know the winners and the losers truly in the sense of where we are now? >>So I think what I've found is that in this space specifically, there's a constant shift and this is something with software. And the problem is, is that we see them come in ebbs and flows, right. And very few times are there businesses that actually carry the model? And what you find is that when they focus on one specific problem, it solves it. Now, if I was working on VMs a few years ago, great, but now we're, we're here at coop con, right? And that's because it's eaten, uh, that side of the world. And so I think it's the companies that can actually grow the test of time and continue to expand to where the problems are. Right. And that's one of the things that I traditionally think about harness and we've done it. We cover our customers where they were, I think the old mainframes, if you had to, where they were, where they are at their traditional, their VM. >>I mean, if you think about it, Nick, it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a common sense way to look at it evolves with a problem. So I ride the right with tech ways. But if you think about the high order bit, here is just applications. We ended the day. Companies have applications that they want to write modern. The applications of their business is going to be codified so that you just work backwards from there. Then you say, okay, what is the infrastructure as code working for me? That's an ethos of dev ops. And that's where we're at. So that's why I think that the cloud need is kind of one already, but we still have the edge devices, more complexity. This is a huge next level conversation at one point is that we just put a hard and top on the complexity. When is that coming? Because the developers are clear. They want to go fast. They want to go shift left and have all that data, get the right analytics, the telemetry and the AI. But it's too complicated still. That is a big problem. >>It's too complicated. You ask for a full-stack developer to also know infrastructure, to also know edge computing. Like it's impossible, right? And this is where tooling helps, right? Because if you can actually parameterize that and make it to the engineers and have to care, they can do what they're best at. Hey, I'm great at turning code in artifact, let them do that and have tooling take care of the rest. This is where our goal is. Again, allow people >>We'll do what they love. And this is kind of the new roles that are changing. What SRE has done. Everyone talks about the SRE and some states just as he had dev ops guy, but it's not just that there's also, uh, different roles emerging. It's, it's an architectural game. At this point, we would say, >>I'd say a hundred percent. And this is where the decisions that you make on are architecturally. If you don't know how to then roll them out, this is what we've seen. Time and time again, you go to these large companies, I've got these great architectures on planning four years later, we haven't reached it because to that point process, >>The process killed them four >>Different new tools throughout the process. Well, yeah. >>So when do we hit peak Kubernetes peak >>Kubernetes? I think we have a bit to go in and I'm excited about the networking space and really what we're doing there and, and bringing that holistic portion of the network, like when Istio was originally released, I thought that was one of the most amazing things, uh, to truly come to it. And I think there's a vast space in networking. Um, and, and so I think in the next few years, we're going to see this, you know, turn into that a hundred percent utilized across the board. This will be that where everyone's workloads continue to exist. Um, somewhat like VMs we're in >>And, and, and no, no fear of developers as code in the very near future. You're talking about automating the mundane. Correct. Uh, there have been stories recently about the three-day workweek, you know, as a, as a fan of, um, utopian science fiction, myself, as opposed to dystopian. Absolutely. I think that, you know, technology does have the opportunity to lift all boats and, uh, and it's, it's not nothing to be afraid of. You know, the fact that I put my dishes in the dishwasher and they run by themselves for three hours. It's a good thing. It's a great thing. >>I don't need to deal with that. Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's, and that's what I said in the beginning. Right. That's really where we can start empowering people. So allow them to do what they're good at and do what they're best at. And if you look at why do people quit? We don't have to go so hard to find. Yeah. Why? Because they're secondary to babysit and implement and they're told everywhere they go, they're not going to have to >>That's the line. And that's all right. We got a break, but it's great insight to have you on the Q one final question for you. Um, I got to ask about the whole data as code something that I've been riffing on for a bunch of years now. And as infrastructures could we get that, but data is now the resource everyone needs, and everyone's trying to, okay, I have the control plane for this and that, but ultimately data cannot be siloed. This is a critical architectural element. How does that get resolved in the land of the competitive advantage and lock in and whatnot? What's your take on that? >>So data's an interesting one because it has, it has gravity and this is the problem. And as we move, as I think you guys know, as you move to the edge as remove, move it places there's insights to be taken at the edge there's insights to be taken as it moves through. And I think what you'll see honestly, going forward is you'll see compute done differently to your point. It needs to be aggregated. It needs to be able to be used together, but I think you'll see people computing it on its way through it. So now even in transport, you'll start seeing insights gained in real time before you can have the larger insights. And I see that happening more and more. Um, and I think ultimately we just want to empower that >>Nick, great to have you on CTO of field CTO of harness and harness.io is a URL. Check it out. Thanks for the insight. Thank you so much. Great comments. Appreciate it. Natural cube analysts right here, Nick, of course, we've got our, our analysts right here, David Nicholson. You're good on your own. I'm John for a, you know, we have the host. Thanks for watching. Stay with two more days of coverage. We'll be back after this short break.

>>Hello everyone Welcome to the cubes coverage of cubic on cloud native come here in person in L A 2021. I'm john ferrier, host of the Cuban Dave Nicholson host cloud host for the cube and of course former host of the cube steve minutemen. Now at red hat stew, we do our normal keynote reviews. We had to have you come back first while hazard and red hat >>john it's phenomenal. Great to see you nice to have Dave be on the program here too. It's been awesome. So yeah, a year and a day since I joined Red hat and uh, I do miss you guys always enjoyed doing the interviews in the cube. But you know, we're still in the community and still interacting lots, >>but we love you too. And Davis, your new replacement and covering the cloud angles. He's gonna bring little stew mo jokes of the interview but still, we've always done the wrap up has always been our favorite interviews to do an analysis of the keynote because let's face it, that's where all the action is. Of course we bring the commentary, but this year it's important because it's the first time we've had an event in two years too. So a lot of people, you know, aren't saying this on camera a lot, but they're kind of nervous. They're worried they're weirded out. We're back in person again. What do I feel? I haven't seen people, I've been working with people online. This is the top story. >>Yeah, john I thought they did a really good job in the keynote this morning. Normally, I mean this community in general is good with inclusion. Part of that inclusion is hey, what are you comfortable with if your remote? We still love you and it's okay. And if you're here in person, you might see there's wrist bands of green, yellow, red as in like, hey, you okay with a handshake. You want to do there or stay the f away from me because I'm not really that comfortable yet being here and it's whatever you're comfortable with. That's okay. >>I think the inclusion and the whole respect for the individual code of conduct, C N C. F and limits Foundation has been on the front end of all those trends. I love how they're taking it to a whole nother level. David, I want to get your take because now with multi cloud, we heard the same message over and over again that hey, open winds, okay. Open winds and still changing fast. What's your take? >>Open absolutely wins. It's uh, it's the present. It's the future. I know in some of the conversations we've had with folks looking back over the last seven years, a lot of things have changed. Um, whenever I think of open source anything, I go back to the foundations of Lennox and I remember a time when you had to reboot a Linux server to re scan a scuzzy bus to add a new storage device and we all sort of put our penguin hats on and kind of ignored that for a while. And uh, and, and as things are developed, we keep coming into these new situations. Multi cluster management was a big, big point of conversation in the keynote today. It's fascinating when you start thinking about something that was once sort of a back room science experiment. Absolutely. It's the center of the enterprise now from a software >>from an open tour standpoint security has been one of those front and center things. One of the day, zero events that got a lot of buzz coming at the beginning of the week was secure supply chain. So with the Solar Wind act going in there, you know, we remember cloud, wait, can I trust it with the security? Open source right now. Open source and security go together. Open source and the security in the cloud all go together. So you know that that wave of open source, obviously one of the things that brought me to red hat, I'd had a couple of decades, you know, working within the enterprise and open source and that that adoption curve which went through a few bumps in the road over time and it took time. But today, I mean open sources have given this show in this ecosystem are such proof >>points of a couple things. I noticed one, I want to do a shout out for the folks who put a nice tribute for dan Kaminsky who has passed away and we miss him. We saw on the Cube 2019, I believe he's on the Cube that year with Adam on big influence, but the inclusiveness do and the community is changing. I think security has changed a lot and I want to get your guys take on this. Security has forced a lot of things happen faster data, open data. Okay. And kubernetes to get hardened faster stew. I know your team's working on it. We know what Azure and amazon is working on it. What do you guys think about how security's been forcing the advances in kubernetes and making that stable? >>Yeah. So john security, you know, is job one, it is everyone's responsibility. We talk about it from a container and kubernetes standpoint. We think we have a relatively good handle on what's happening in the kubernetes space red hat, we made an acquisition earlier this year of stack rocks, which was one of the leading kubernetes native security pieces. But you know, john we know security isn't just a moat anymore in a wall that you put up every single piece. You need to think about it. Um, I've got a person from the stack rocks acquisition actually on my team now and have told him like hey, you need to cross train all of us. We need to understand this more from a marketing standpoint, we need to talk about it from a developer standpoint. We need to have consideration of it. It's no longer, hey, it works okay on my machine. Come on, It needs to go to production. We all know this shift left is something we've been talking about for many years. So yes, security, security, security, we cannot overemphasize how important is um, you know, when it comes to cooper, I think, you know, were relatively mature, we're crossing the chasm, the adoption numbers are there, so it's not an impediment anymore. >>It's totally next level. I don't agree with this too. David, get your thoughts on this whole adoption um, roadmap that put it together, one of the working groups that we interviewed has got that kind of navigate, kinda like trailheads for salesforce, but that speaks to the adoption by mainstream enterprises, not the hard core, >>you know, >>us devops guys, but like it goes into mainstream main main street enterprise had I. T. Department and security groups there, like we got a program faster. How do you see the cloud guys in this ecosystem competing and making that go faster. >>So it's been interesting over the last decade or more often, technology has been ahead of people's comfort level with that technology for obvious reasons, it's not just something went wrong, it's something went wrong. I lost my job. Really, really bad things happened. So we tend to be conservative. Rightfully so in the sometimes there are these seminal moments where a shift happens go back sort of analogous go back to a time when people's main concern with VM ware was how can I get support from Microsoft and all of a sudden it went from that within weeks to how can I deploy this in my enterprise very, very quickly. And I'm fascinated by this concept of locking down the supply chain of code, uh sort of analogous to https, secure, http. It's the idea of making sure that these blocks of code are validated and secure as they get implemented. You mentioned, you mentioned things like cluster and pad's security and infrastructure security. >>Well, David, you brought up a really good point. So get off is the instance creation of that. How can I have my infrastructure as code? How can I make sure that I don't have drift? It's because I could just, it'll live and get hub and therefore it's version controlled. If I try to do something, it will validate that it's there and keep me on version because we know john we talked about it for years on the cube, we've gone beyond human scale if I don't build automation into it, if I don't have the guard rails in place because humans will mess things up so we need to make sure that we have the processes and the automation in place and kubernetes was built for that automation at its core, putting in, we've seen get up the Argosy, D was only went graduated, you know, the one dato was supported as coupon europe. Earlier this year, we already had a number of our customers deploying it using it. Talking publicly >>about it too. I want to get the kid apps angle and that's a good call out there and, and mainly because when we were on the cute, when you work, you post with with us, we were always cheerleading for Cuban. It we love because we've been here every single coupon. We were one saying this is gonna be big trust us and it is, it happens to so, but now we've been kind of, we don't have to sell it anymore. We don't, I mean not that we're selling it, but like we don't have to be a proponent of something we knew was going to happen, it happened. You're now work for a vendor red hat you talk to customers. What is that next level conversation look like now that they know it's real, they have to do it. How is the tops and then modern applications development, changing. What are your observations? Can you share with us from a redhead perspective as someone who's talking to customers, you know, what does real look like? >>Yeah. So get off is a great example of that. So, you know, certain of our government agencies that we work with, you know, obviously very secured about, you know, we want zero trust who do we put in charge of things. So if they can have, you know that that source of truth and know that that is maintained and lockdown and not await some admin is gonna mess something up on us either maliciously or oops, by accident or anything in between. That's why they were pushing that adoption of that kind of technology. So absolutely they, for the most part john they don't want to have to think about the infrastructure piece anymore. What if developers want the old past days was I want to be able to, you know, write once deploy anywhere, live anywhere, containers helps that a little bit. We even have in the container space. Now you can, you can use a service deployment model with Okay. Natives, the big open source project that, you know, VM ware ourselves are working on google's involved in it. So, you know, having us be able to focus on the business and not, you know, running the plumbing anymore. >>That's exactly, that's exactly, that's what we're so psyched for. Okay guys, let's wrap this up and and review the keynote day will start with you. What do you think of the keynote? What were the highlights? What do you take away from the taste keynote? >>So you touched on a couple of things, uh inclusion from all sorts of different angles. Really impressive. This sort of easing back into the world of being face to face. I think they're doing a fantastic job at that. The thing that struck me was something I mentioned earlier. Um moving into multi cluster management in a way that really speaks to enterprise deployments and the complexity of enterprise deployments moving forward? It's not just, it's not just, I'm a developer, I'm using resources in the cloud. I'm doing things this way, the rest of the enterprises doing it a legacy way. It's really an acknowledgement that these things are coming together increasingly. That's what really struck me >>to do. What's your takeaway from the end? >>So there's been a discussion in the industry, you know, what do the next million cloud customers look like we've crossed the chasm on kubernetes. One of the things they announced the keynote is they have a new associate level certification because I tell you before the keynote, I stopped by the breakfast area, saturday table, talk to a couple people. One guy was like, hey, I'm been on amazon for a bunch of years, but I'm a kubernetes newbie, I'm here to learn about that. It's not the same person that five years ago was like, I'm gonna grab all these projects and pull them down from getting, build my stack and you know, have a platform team to manage it from a red hat standpoint, we're delivering our biggest growth areas in cloud services where hey, I've got an SRE team, they can manage all that because can you do it? Sure you got people maybe you'll hire him, but wouldn't you rather have them work on, you know, that security initiative or that new application or some of these pieces, you know, what can you shift to your vendor? What can you offload from your team because we know the only constant is that things are gonna there's gonna be gonna be new pieces and I don't want to have to look at, oh there's another 20 new projects and how does that fit? Can I have a partner or consultant in sc that can help me integrate that into my environment when it makes sense for me because otherwise, oh my God, cloud, So much innovation. How do I grasp what I want? >>Great stuff guys, I would just say my summary is that okay? I'm excited this community has broken through the pandemic and survived and thrived people were working together during the pandemic. It's like a V. I. P. Event here. So that my keynote epiphany was this is like the who's who some big players are here. I saw Bill Vaz from amazon on the on the ground floor on monday night, He's number two at a W. S. I saw some top Vcs here. Microsoft IBM red hat the whole way tracks back. Whole track is back and it's a hybrid event. So I think we're here for the long haul with hybrid events where you can see a lot more in person, V. I. P. Like vibe people are doing deals. It feels alive too and it's all open. So it's all cool. And again, the team at C. N. C. F. They do an exceptional job of inclusion and making people feel safe and cool. So, great job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Good stuff. Okay. The keynote review from the cube Stupid Man shot for Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching >>mm mm mm.

>>And welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. We're in person physical venom, John free hosted a Q a Dave Nicholson, my CO's and Emma Laney, who is our not so roving reporter unemployed, software engineer, unemployed comedian. Great to have you on the cube. >>Thank you for that list of credentials. >>You're doing great. I saw you're having some fun down there. We've got this new show or testing out called the grill. Here it is. Okay. Um, what's the focus, what's the story behind everything. >>Uh, the focus of the show is trying to have some fun with tech. You know, tech has a lot of self seriousness. Uh, there's a lot that's ripe to make fun of. We're also having fun. We're not trying to grill people in. We're not trying to roast them. Right? We're having people come through. They're sharing funny stories. We're having a contest to find the best man split nation of Kubernetes. Right now, I got to say, a woman is in the lead. Oh, she killed that contest, like called me, sweetie. And everything. It just proves that it's not about the man. You identify as it's about the condensation in your heart when it comes to mansplaining. >>Um, what is the best criteria that you, when you get a candidate for the mansplaining competition, what is the criteria? >>I mean, number one, we're looking for condensation. You get extra points for you, the phrase, well, actually we want a supercilious attitude. Uh, if you are partially into explaining it and then you stop yourself because you think you've used too technical of a term and then step it down, all of those gets you extra points in the mansplaining. >>Can I ask you, what's your biggest observation as you kind of look at this ecosystem? I mean, it's a big event, but it's, COVID postpone even in COVID people are wearing masks, not wearing masks. >>I mean, people are wearing masks for the most part. Uh, you know, I did love this, uh, red light, yellow light green light system. They came up with green, meaning please touch me. I've been inside for too long red meaning I still care about COVID yellow. You know, ask me, we'll figure it >>Out. All right. What's the funniest thing you've heard so far. >>The funniest thing I have to say, I asked someone what their favorite tech joke is. And he said it worked on my computer That really stirred up some memories. >>Oh man, we're in LA though. This is a great area. It's literally with the best comedians you could think of or work their way through the system. But with techno and everything is tech with gadgets and with like Kubernetes, I mean, it's, it's the material writes itself. I mean, >>Surely >>You must be having, >>Oh, I'm definitely having a ton of fun. Uh, I wouldn't say the material writes itself. I would say hire me to write material, but it is quite a fertile. >>Okay. What would you write for, uh, looking at the keynote today? Looking at the vibe here, obviously a lot of people show because they're remote, but visually it's a packed house here, but what's your first comedic view of the, as the fog lifts in this community? >>I have to say the thing that really stuck out to me from the keynote addresses was that people have not yet adjusted to being in person. There were some very, very delayed applause breaks where people realize they were not muted watching on a screen and you'd still go, oh, that's right. We should interact. Like God bless those speakers. It's uh, people have been inside for a long time. >>Um, part-time comedian too. I mean, co-hosting queue. Um, I don't, I, >>I don't find anything funny with technology. And I'm curious when you use the word supercilious, is that a, is that a comedic term? I, I, yes. >>I heard that before. It's the Latin form of super silly. Yeah. Which is my brand of comedy. >>So the mansplaining, I don't know if you need to like, woman's plane, some of this stuff to me, but I'll English >>Major Splain. Okay. Okay. Super silliest. >>It sounds super silly. So is it, is it, is it okay to have a ringer come in and attempt make an attempt at the mansplaining or >>Okay. A hundred >>Percent come in wearing it. >>I'm trying to make this a safe space for women at the conference. I'm the only woman you should be mansplaining to. I'm a martyr falling on the sword of mansplaining for all the great technical women at this conference. You slip that in >>And translate that. >>Of course, John, I don't know how to explain that to them more detailed. Um, what I love about the vibe is that this technical people they're snarky. If you get at their core, I mean, we were at the bar. Everyone was like totally leaning into like comedy and more fun because it's almost like they're bust out, come out of the closet and beat comedian. >>Oh, there is a broiling anger in the soul of every developer and every person who's worked on technology. And the question is going to be, can we get it on camera when they are not drunk, we're doing our >>Best to drink. These developers don't >>Think, oh, they do desperately. >>We saw a few partaking in the bar at the GTA merit and a lot going on. You had the, you know, they had warriors game going on. You have a lot of Dodgers were playing the giants. So pretty active bar scene for this crowd. >>Yeah, no, it was, uh, it was very fun. I personally was disappointed that the warriors are not actually staying in our hotel. You know, if this software thing doesn't work out, NBA wife is a possible second. >>And the Ritz Carlton was right behind us. You could be right there too. All right. So the grill is, uh, an experiment. We're having some fun with it, but the purpose is to just chill a bit. What's the, what would you say the goal of the show is for you? >>I'd say the goal is to get people to come out of their shells a little bit, to have some fun, to poke fun at some of the tendencies that we see in tech that we often don't bring up. You know, like I'm having so much fun with the man's pollination. Uh, I've lived it a bit. And my favorite is, uh, as I asked men to mansplain it to me, the panic in their eyes, that's my ultimate goal is just to make men afraid. >>And the panic is because they don't know if they're mansplaining all the time or actually purposely mansplaining is hard enough, but they do it naturally. Sorry. >>I have three daughters and I can't wait for them to see this stuff. I cannot >>Wait. That's going to be >>Great. Well, we have cooler gen Z. >>Well, we have t-shirts right. Let me see the t-shirts give everyone a quick, if you come on, this is day one of coupons. So if you do come on the show with the grill, I'm the t-shirt ferry. The grill is real. It's like the V the cubes version of the view, but >>Wow, just because I'm a woman, the, uh, the t-shirt is a big incentive. I'm sure a lot of people go to tech conferences don't get any free. T-shirts good. >>I got grilled by a net. Lilium, the cube at cube con con not cube >>Con. It's a medium rare grilling. >>I couldn't resist the view jokes. I know I'm in color. We'll keep our day jobs here in the comedian angle. We got to >>Believe that's true. Yes. When I look at the wavelengths of >>Light on that, I'm super stoked to have you try that. I think it's a great program, Greg. God. So you guys doing a great job, loved the vibe, love the energy, love the creativity, having some fun. See the poster one last time. And the idea is to have some fun, right? It's a tough time. We're all coming back from the pandemic, welcoming back from the pandemic. And this is just a fun way to kind of let the air out and have some fun. So thanks for everyone. Thank you so much for doing that. Thank you. All right. Cute coverage here. Coop gone. Cloud native con I'm John Perry, David Nicholson. Be back with more day, one coverage of three days after the short break.

>>welcome back everyone to the cube con cloud, David Kahn coverage. I'm john for a host of the cube, we're here in person, 2020 20 a real event, it's a hybrid event, we're streaming live to you with all the great coverage and guests coming on next three days. Clayton Coleman's chief Hybrid cloud architect for Red Hat is joining me here to go over viewers talk but also talk about hybrid cloud. Multi cloud where it's all going road red hats doing great to see you thanks coming on. It's a pleasure to be >>back. It's a pleasure to be back in cuba con. >>Uh it's an honor to have you on as a chief architect at Red Hat on hybrid cloud. It is the hottest area in the market right now. The biggest story we were back in person. That's the biggest story here. The second biggest story, that's the most important story is hybrid cloud. And what does it mean for multi cloud, this is a key trend. You just gave a talk here. What's your take on it? You >>know, I, I like to summarize hybrid cloud as the answer to. It's really the summarization of yes please more of everything, which is, we don't have one of anything. Nobody has got any kind of real footprint is single cloud. They're not single framework, they're not single language, they're not single application server, they're not single container platform, they're not single VM technology. And so, um, and then, you know, looking around here in this, uh, partner space where eight years into kubernetes and there is an enormous ecosystem of tools, technologies, capabilities, add ons, plug ins components that make our applications better. Um the modern application landscape is so huge that I think that's what hybrid really is is it's we've got all these places to run stuff more than ever and we've got all this stuff to run more than ever and it doesn't slow down. So how do we bring sanity to that? How do we understand it? Bring it together and companies has been a big part of that, like it unlocked some of that. What's the next step? >>Yeah, that's a great, great commentary. I want to take into the kubernetes piece but you know, as we've been reporting the digital transformation at all time, high speed is the number one request. People want to go faster, not just speeds and feeds, but like ship code fast to build apps faster. Make it all run faster and secure. Okay, check, get that. Look what we were 15, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, 2016. The first coupe con in Seattle we were there for small events kubernetes, we gotta sell it, figure it out. Right convince people >>that it's a it's worth >>it. Yeah. So what's your take on that? Well, I mean, it's mature, it's kind of de facto standard at this point. What's missing. Where is it? >>So I think Kubernetes has succeeded at the core mission which is helping us stop worrying about all the problems that we spent endless amounts of time arguing about, how do I deploy software, How do I roll it out? But in the meantime we've added more types of software. You know, the rise of ai ml um you know, the whole the whole ecosystem around training software models like what is a what is an Ai model? Is it look like an application, does it look like a job? It's part batch, part service. Um It's spread out to the edge. We've added mobile devices. The explosion in mobile computing over the last 10 years has co evolved. And so kubernetes succeeded at that kind of set a floor for what everybody thought was an application. And in the meantime we've added all these other parts of the application. >>It's funny, you know, David Anthony, we're talking about what's to minimum and networks at red hat will be on later. Back in the first two cubicles were like, you know, this is like a TCP I P moment, the Os I model that was a killer part of the stack. Now it was all standardized below TCP I. P. Company feels like a similar kind of construct where it's unifying, is creating some enablement, It's enabling some innovation and it kind of brought everyone together at the same time everyone realized that that's real, >>the whole >>cloud native is real. And now we're in an era now where people are talking about doing things that are completely different. You mentioned as a batch job house ai new software paradigm development paradigms, not to suffer during the lifecycle, but just like software development in general is impacted. >>Absolutely. And you know, the components like, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about how to test and build application, but those are things that we all kind of internalized now we we have seen the processes is critical because it's going to be in lots of places, people are looking to standardize. But sometimes the new technology comes up alongside the side, the thing we're trying to standardize, we're like, well let's just use the new technology instead function as a service is kind of uh it came up, you know, kubernetes group K Native. And then you see, you know, the proliferation of functions as a service choices, what do people use? So there's a lot of choice and we're all building on those common layers, but everybody kind of has their own opinions, everybody's doing something subtly different. >>Let me ask you your opinion on on more under the Hood kind of complexity challenge. There's general consensus in the industry that does a lot of complexity. Okay, you don't mean debate that, but that's in a way, a good thing in the sense if you solve that, that's where innovation comes in. So the goal is to solve complexity, abstract out of the heavy lifting under heavy living in Sandy Jackson. And I would say, or abstract away complexity make things easier to use >>Well and an open source and this ecosystem is an amazing um it's one of the most effective methods we've ever found for trying every possible solution and keeping the five or six most successful and that's a little bit like developers, developers flow downhill, developers are going to do, it's easy if it's easier to put a credit card in and go to the public cloud, you're gonna do it if you can take control away from the teams at your organization that are there to protect you, but maybe aren't as responsive as you like. People will, people will go around those. And so I think a little bit of what we're trying to do is what are the commonalities that we could pick out of this ecosystem that everybody agrees on and make those the downhill path that people follow, not putting a credit card into a cloud, but offering a way for you not to think about what clouds are on until you need to write, because you want to go to the fridge is a developer, you wanna go the fridge, pull out your favorite brand of soda, that favorite band Isoda might have an AWS label also >>talk about the open shift and the Kubernetes relationship, you guys push the boundaries. Um Den is being controlled playing and nodes, these are things that you talked about in your talk, talk about because you guys made some good bets on open shift, we've been covering that, how's that playing out now? It's a relationship now >>is interesting coming into kubernetes, we came in from the platform as a service angle, right, Platform as a service was the first iteration of trying to make the lowest cost path for developers to flow to business value um and so we added things on top of kubernetes, we knew that we were going to complex, so we built in a little bit um in our structure and our way of thinking about cube that it was never going to be just that basic bare bones package that you're gonna have to make choices for people that made sense. Ah obviously as the ecosystems grown, we've tried to grow with it, we've tried to be a layer above kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer in between kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer underneath kubernetes and all of these are valid places to be. Um I think that next step is we're all kind of asking, you know, we've got all this stuff, are there any ways that we can be more efficient? So I like to think about practical benefits, what is a practical benefit That a little bit of opinion nation could bring to this ecosystem and I think it's around applications, it's being application centric, it's what is a team, 90% of the time need to be successful, they need a way to get their code out, they need to get it to the places that they wanted to be, and that place is everywhere. It's not one cloud or on premises or a data center, it's the edge, it's running as a lambda. It's running inside devices that might be being designed in this very room today. >>It's interesting. You know, you're an architect, but also the computer science industry is the people who were trained in the area are learning. It's pretty fascinating and almost intoxicating right now in this this market because you have an operating system, dynamic systems kind of programming model with distributed cloud, edge on fire, that's only gonna get more complicated with 5G and high density data applications. Um and then you've got this changing modal mode of operations were programming with bots and Ai and machine learning to new things, but it's kind of the same distributed computing paradigm. Yeah. What's your reaction to that? >>Well, and it's it's interesting. I was kind of described like layers. We've gone from Lenox replaced proprietary UNIX or mainframe to virtualization, which, and then we had a lot of Lennox, we had some windows too. And then we moved to public cloud and private cloud. We brought config management and moved to kubernetes, um we still got that. Os at the heart of what we do. We've got, uh application libraries and we've shared services and common services. I think it's interesting like to learn from Lennox's lesson, which is we want to build an open expansive ecosystem, You're kind of like kind of like what's going on. We want to pick enough opinion nation that it just works because I think just works is what, let's be honest, like we could come up with all the great theories of what the right way computers should be done, but it's gonna be what's easy, what gets people help them get their jobs done, trying to time to take that from where people are today on cube in cloud, on multiple clouds, give them just a little bit more consolidation. And I think it's a trick people or convince people by showing them how much easier it could be. >>You know, what's interesting around um, what you guys have done a red hat is that you guys have real customers are demanding, you have enterprise customers. So you have your eye on the front edge of the, of the bleeding edge, making things easier. And I think that's good enough is a good angle, but let's, let's face it, people are just lifting and shifting to the cloud now. They haven't yet re factored and re factoring is a concept of taking what you're doing in the cloud of taking advantage of new services to change the operating dynamic and value proposition of say the application. So the smart money is all going there, seeing the funding come into applications that are leveraging the new platform? Re platform and then re factoring what's your take on that because you got the edge, you have other things happening. >>There are so many more types of applications today. And it's interesting because almost all of them start with real practical problems that enterprises or growing tech companies or companies that aren't tech companies but have a very strong tech component. Right? That's the biggest transformation the last 15 years is that you can be a tech company without ever calling yourself a tech company because you have a website and you have an upset and your entire business model flows like that. So there is, I think pragmatically people are, they're okay with their footprint where it is. They're looking to consolidate their very interested in taking advantage of the scale that modern cloud offers them and they're trying to figure out how to bring all the advantages that they have in these modern technologies to these new footprints and these new form factors that they're trying to fit into, whether that's an application running on the edge next to their load bouncer in a gateway, in telco five Gs happening right now. Red hat's been really heavily involved in a telco ecosystem and it's kubernetes through and through its building on those kinds of principles. What are the concepts that help make a hybrid application, an application that spans the data flowing from a device back to the cloud, out to a Gateway processed by a big data system in a private region, someplace where computers cheap can't >>be asylum? No, absolutely not has to be distributed non siloed based >>and how do we do that and keep security? How do we help you track where your data is and who's talking to whom? Um there's a lot of, there's a lot of people here today who are helping people connect. I think that next step that contact connectivity, the knowing who's talking and how they're connecting, that'll be a fundamental part of what emerges as >>that's why I think the observe ability to me is the data is really about a data funding a new data sector of the market that's going to be addressable. I think data address ability is critical. Clayton really appreciate you coming on. And giving a perspective an expert in the field. I gotta ask you, you know, I gotta say from a personal standpoint how open source has truly been a real enabler. You look at how fast new things could come in and be adopted and vetted and things get kicked around people try stuff that fails, but it's they they build on each other. Right? So a I for example, it's just a great example of look at what machine learning and AI is going on, how fast that's been adopted. Absolutely. I don't think that would be done in open source. I have to ask you guys at red hat as you continue your mission and with IBM with that partnership, how do you see people participating with you guys? You're here, you're part of the ecosystem, big player, how you guys continue to work with the community? Take a minute to share what you're working on. >>So uh first off, it's impossible to get anything done I think in this ecosystem without being open first. Um and that's something the red at and IBM are both committed to. A lot of what I try to do is I try to map from the very complex problems that people bring to us because every problem in applications is complex at some later and you've got to have the expertise but there's so much expertise. So you got to be able to blend the experts in a particular technology, the experts in a particular problem domain like the folks who consult or contract or helped design some of these architectures or have that experience at large companies and then move on to advise others and how to proceed. And then you have to be able to take those lessons put them in technology and the technology has to go back and take that feedback. I would say my primary goal is to come to these sorts of events and to share what everyone is facing because if we as a group aren't all working at some level, there won't be the ability of those organizations to react because none of us know the whole stack, none of us know the whole set of details >>And this text changing too. I mean you got to get a reference to a side while it's more than 80s metaphor. But you know, but that changed the game on proprietary and that was like >>getting it allows us to think and to separate. You know, you want to have nice thin layers that the world on top doesn't worry about below except when you need to and below program you can make things more efficient and public cloud, open source kubernetes and the proliferation of applications on top That's happening today. I >>mean Palmer gets used to talk about the hardened top when he was the VM ware Ceo Back in 2010. Remember him saying that he says she predicted >>the whole, we >>call it the mainframe in the cloud at the time because it was a funny thing to say, but it was really a computer. I mean essentially distributed nature of the cloud. It happened. Absolutely. Clayton, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing your insights appreciate. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Right click here on the Cuban john furry. You're here live in L A for coupon cloud native in person. It's a hybrid event was streaming Also going to the cube platform as well. Check us out there all the interviews. Three days of coverage, we'll be right back Yeah. Mm mm mm I have

>> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage day two of CloudNative Security CON 23. Lisa Martin here in studio in Palo Alto with John Furrier. John, we've had some great conversations. I've had a global event. This was a global event. We had Germany on yesterday. We had the Boston Studio. We had folks on the ground in Seattle. Lot of great conversations, a lot of great momentum at this event. What is your number one takeaway with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, our coverage with our CUBE alumni experts coming in remotely this remote event for us, I think this event as an inaugural event stood out because one, it was done very carefully and methodically from the CNCF. I think they didn't want to overplay their hand relative to breaking out from CUBE CON So Kubernetes success and CloudNative development has been such a success and that event and ecosystem is booming, right? So that's the big story is they have the breakout event and the question was, was it a good call? Was it successful? Was it going to, would the dog hunt as they say, in this case, I think the big takeaway is that it was successful by all measures. One, people enthusiastic and confident that this has the ability to stand on its own and still contribute without taking away from the benefits and growth of Kubernetes CUBE CON and CloudNative console. So that was the key. Hallway conversations, the sessions all curated and developed properly to be different and focused for that reason. So I think the big takeaway is that the CNCF did a good job on how they rolled this out. Again, it was very intimate event small reminds me of first CUBE CON in Seattle, kind of let's test it out. Let's see how it goes. Again, clearly it was people successful and they understood why they're doing it. And as we commented out in our earlier segments this is not something new. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent and re:Inforce So a lot of parallels there. I see there. So I think good call. CNCF did the right thing. I think this has legs. And then as Dave pointed out, Dave Vellante, on our last keynote analysis was the business model of the hackers is better than the business model of the industry. They're making more money, it costs less so, you know, they're playing offense and the industry playing defense. That has to change. And as Dave pointed out we have to make the cost of hacking and breaches and cybersecurity higher so that the business model crashes. And I think that's the strategic imperative. So I think the combination of the realities of the market globally and open source has to go faster. It's good to kind of decouple and be highly cohesive in the focus. So to me that's the big takeaway. And then the other one is, is that there's a lot more security problems still unresolved. The emphasis on developers productivity is at risk here, if not solved. You saw supply chain software, again, front and center and then down in the weeds outside of Kubernetes, things like BIND and DNS were brought up. You're seeing the Linux kernel. Really important things got to be paid attention to. So I think very good call, very good focus. >> I would love if for us to be able to, as the months go on talk to some of the practitioners that actually got to attend. There were 72 sessions, that's a lot of content for a small event. Obviously to your point, very well curated. We did hear from some folks yesterday who were just excited to get the community back together in person. To your point, having this dedicated focus on CloudNativesecurity is incredibly important. You talked about, you know, the offense defense, the fact that right now the industry needs to be able to pivot from being on defense to being on offense. This is a challenging thing because it is so lucrative for hackers. But this seems to be from what we've heard in the last couple days, the right community with the right focus to be able to make that pivot. >> Yeah, and I think if you look at the success of Kubernetes, 'cause again we were there at theCUBE first one CUBE CON, the end user stories really drove end user participation. Drove the birth of Kubernetes. Left some of these CloudNative early adopters early pioneers that were using cloud hyperscale really set the table for CloudNative CON. I think you're seeing that here with this CloudNative SecurityCON where I think we're see a lot more end user stories because of the security, the hairs on fire as we heard from Madrona Ventures, you know, as they as an investor you have a lot of use cases out there where customers are leaning in with getting the rolling up their sleeves, working with open source. This has to be the driver. So I'm expecting to see the next level of SecurityCON to be end user focused. Much more than vendor focused. Where CUBECON was very end user focused and then attracted all the vendors in that grew the industry. I expect the similar pattern here where end user action will be very high at the beginning and that will essentially be the rising tide for the vendors to be then participating. So I expect almost a similar trajectory to CUBECON. >> That's a good path that it needs to all be about all the end users. One of the things I'm curious if what you heard was what are some of the key factors that are going to move CloudNative Security forward? What did you hear the last two days? >> I heard that there's a lot of security problems and no one wants to kind of brag about this but there's a lot of under the hood stuff that needs to get taken care of. So if automation scales, and we heard that from one of the startups we've just interviewed. If automation and scale continues to happen and with the business model of the hackers still booming, security has to be refactored quickly and there's going to be an opportunity structurally to use the cloud for that. So I think it's a good opportunity now to get dedicated focus on fixing things like the DNS stuff old school under the hood, plumbing, networking protocols. You're going to start to see this super cloud-like environment emerge where data's involved, everything's happening and so security has to be re imagined. And I think there's a do over opportunity for the security industry with CloudNative driving that. And I think this is the big thing that I see as an opportunity to, from a story standpoint from a coverage standpoint is that it's a do-over for security. >> One of the things that we heard yesterday is that there's a lot of it, it's a pretty high percentage of organizations that either don't have a SOCK or have a very primitive SOCK. Which kind of surprised me that at this day and age the risks are there. We talked about that today's focus and the keynote was a lot about the software supply chain and what's going on there. What did you hear in terms of the appetite for organizations through the voice of the practitioner to say, you know what guys, we got to get going because there's going to be the hackers are they're here. >> I didn't hear much about that in the coverage 'cause we weren't in the hallways. But from reading the tea leaves and talking to the folks on the ground, I think there's an implied like there's an unlimited money from customers. So it's a very robust from the data infrastructure stack building we cover with the angel investor Kane you're seeing data infrastructure's going to be part of the solution here 'cause data and security go hand in hand. So everyone's got basically checkbook wide open everyone wants to have the answer. And we commented that the co-founder of Palo Alto you had on our coverage yesterday was saying that you know, there's no real platform, there's a lot of tools out there. People will buy anything. So there's still a huge appetite and spend in security but the answer's not going to more tool sprawling. It's going to more platform auto, something that enables automation, fix some of the underlying mechanisms involved and fix it fast. So to me I think it's going to be a robust monetary opportunity because of the demand on the business side. So I don't see that changing at all and I think it's going to accelerate. >> It's a great point in terms of the demand for the business side because as we know as we said yesterday, the next Log4j is out there. It's not a matter of if this happens again it's when, it's the extent, it's how frequent we know that. So organizations all the way up to the board have to be concerned about brand reputation. Nobody wants to be the next big headline in terms of breaches and customer data being given to hackers and hackers making all this money on that. That has to go all the way up to the board and there needs to be alignment between the board and the executives at the organization in terms of how they're going to deal with security, and now. This is not a conversation that can wait. Yeah, I mean I think the five C's we talked about yesterday the culture of companies, the cloud is an enabler, you've got clusters of servers and capabilities, Kubernetes clusters, you've got code and you've got all kinds of, you know, things going on there. Each one has elements that are at risk for hacking, right? So that to me is something that's super important. I think that's why the focus on security's different and important, but it's not going to fork the main event. So that's why I think the spin out was, spinout, or the new event is a good call by the CNCF. >> One of the things today that struck me they're talking a lot about software supply chain and that's been in the headlines for quite a while now. And a stat that was shared this morning during the keynote just blew my brains that there was a 742% increase in the software supply chain attacks occurring over the last three years. It's during Covid times, that is a massive increase. The threat landscape is just growing so amorphously but organizations need to help dial that down because their success and the health of the individuals and the end users is at risk. Well, Covid is an environment where everyone's kind of working at home. So there was some disruption to infrastructure. Also, when you have change like that, there's opportunities for hackers, they'll arbitrage that big time. But I think general the landscape is changing. There's no perimeter anymore. It's CloudNative, this is where it is and people who are moving from old IT to CloudNative, they're at risk. That's why there's tons of ransomware. That's why there's tons of risk. There's just hygiene, from hygiene to architecture and like Nick said from Palo Alto, the co-founder, there's not a lot of architecture in security. So yeah, people have bulked up their security teams but you're going to start to see much more holistic thinking around redoing security. I think that's the opportunity to propel CloudNative, and I think you'll see a lot more coming out of this. >> Did you hear any specific information on some of the CloudNative projects going on that really excite you in terms of these are the right people going after the right challenges to solve in the right direction? >> Well I saw the sessions and what jumped out to me at the sessions was it's a lot of extensions of what we heard at CUBECON and I think what they want to do is take out the big items and break 'em out in security. Kubescape was one we just covered. They want to get more sandbox type stuff into the security side that's very security focused but also plays well with CUBECON. So we'll hear more about how this plays out when we're in Amsterdam coming up in April for CUBECON to hear how that ecosystem, because I think it'll be kind of a relief to kind of decouple security 'cause that gives more focus to the stakeholders in CUBECON. There's a lot of issues going on there and you know service meshes and whatnot. So it's a lot of good stuff happening. >> A lot of good stuff happening. One of the things that'll be great about CUBECON is that we always get the voice of the customer. We get vendors coming on with the voice of the customer talking about and you know in that case how they're using Kubernetes to drive the business forward. But it'll be great to be able to pull in some of the security conversations that spin out of CloudNative Security CON to understand how those end users are embracing the technology. You brought up I think Nir Zuk from Palo Alto Networks, one of the themes there when Dave and I did their Ignite event in December was, of 22, was really consolidation. There are so many tools out there that organizations have to wrap their heads around and they need to be able to have the right enablement content which this event probably delivered to figure out how do we consolidate security tools effectively, efficiently in a way that helps dial down our risk profile because the risks just seem to keep growing. >> Yeah, and I love the technical nature of all that and I think this is going to be the continued focus. Chris Aniszczyk who's the CTO listed like E and BPF we covered with Liz Rice is one of the most three important points of the conference and it's just, it's very nerdy and that's what's needed. I mean it's technical. And again, there's no real standards bodies anymore. The old days developers I think are super important to be the arbiters here. And again, what I love about the CNCF is that they're developer focused and we heard developer first even in security. So you know, this is a sea change and I think, you know, developers' choice will be the standards bodies. >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah. >> They decide the future. >> Yeah. >> And I think having the sandboxing and bringing this out will hopefully accelerate more developer choice and self-service. >> You've been talking about kind of putting the developers in the driver's seat as really being the key decision makers for a while. Did you hear information over the last couple of days that validates that? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's clearly the fact that they did this was one. The other one is, is that engineering teams and dev teams and script teams, they're blending together. It's not just separate silos and the ones that are changing their team dynamics, again, back to the culture are winning. And I think this has to happen. Security has to be embedded everywhere in making it frictionless and to provide kind of the guardrail so developers don't slow down. And I think where security has become a drag or an anchor or a blocker has been just configuration of how the organization's handling it. So I think when people recognize that the developers are in charge and they're should be driving the application development you got to make sure that's secure. And so that's always going to be friction and I think whoever does it, whoever unlocks that for the developer to go faster will win. >> Right. Oh, that's what I'm sure magic to a developer's ear is the ability to go faster and be able to focus on co-development in a secure fashion. What are some of the things that you're excited about for CUBECON. Here we are in February, 2023 and CUBECON is just around the corner in April. What are some of the things that you're excited about based on the groundswell momentum that this first inaugural CloudNative Security CON is generating from a community, a culture perspective? >> I think this year's going to be very interesting 'cause we have an economic challenge globally. There's all kinds of geopolitical things happening. I think there's going to be very entrepreneurial activity this year more than ever. I think you're going to see a lot more innovative projects ideas hitting the table. I think it's going to be a lot more entrepreneurial just because the cycle we're in. And also I think the acceleration of mainstream deployments of out of the CNCF's main event CUBECON will happen. You'll see a lot more successes, scale, more clarity on where the security holes are or aren't. Where the benefits are. I think containers and microservices are continuing to surge. I think the Cloud scale hyperscale as Amazon, Azure, Google will be more aggressive. I think AI will be a big theme this year. I think you can see how data is going to infect some of the innovation thinking. I'm really excited about the data infrastructure because it powers a lot of things in the Cloud. So I think the Amazon Web Services, Azure next level gen clouds will impact what happens in the CloudNative foundation. >> Did you have any conversations yesterday or today with respect to AI and security? Was that a focus of anybody's? Talk to me about that. >> Well, I didn't hear any sessions on AI but we saw some demos on stage. But they're teasing out that this is an augmentation to their mission, right? So I think a lot of people are looking at AI as, again, like I always said there's the naysayers who think it's kind of a gimmick or nothing to see here, and then some are just going to blown away. I think the people who are alpha geeks and the industry connect the dots and understand that AI is going to be an accelerant to a lot of heavy lifting that was either manual, you know, hard to do things that was boring or muck as they say. I think that's going to be where you'll see the AI stories where it's going to accelerate either ways to make security better or make developers more confident and productive. >> Or both. >> Yeah. So definitely AI will be part of it. Yeah, definitely. One of the things too that I'm wondering if, you know, we talk about CloudNative and the goal of it, the importance of it. Do you think that this event, in terms of what we were able to see, obviously being remote the event going on in Seattle, us being here in Palo Alto and Boston and guests on from Seattle and Germany and all over, did you hear the really the validation for why CloudNative Security why CloudNative is important for organizations whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer? Is that validation clear and present? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think it was implied. I don't think there was like anyone's trying to debate that. I think this conference was more of it's assumed and they were really trying to push the ability to make security less defensive, more offensive and more accelerated into the solving the problems with the businesses that are out there. So clearly the CloudNative community understands where the security challenges are and where they're emerging. So having a dedicated event will help address that. And they've got great co-chairs too that put it together. So I think that's very positive. >> Yeah. Do you think, is it possible, I mean, like you said several times today so eloquently the industry's on the defense when it comes to security and the hackers are on the offense. Is it really possible to make that switch or obviously get some balances. As technology advances and industry gets to take advantage of that, so do the hackers, is that balance achievable? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think totally achievable. The question's going to be what's the environment going to be like? And I remember as context to understanding whether it's viable or not, is to look at, just go back 13 years ago, I remember in 2010 Amazon was viewed as an unsecure environment. Everyone's saying, "Oh, the cloud is not secure." And I remember interviewing Steve Schmidt at AWS and we discussed specifically how Amazon Cloud was being leveraged by hackers. They made it more complex for the hackers. And he said, "This is just the beginning." It's kind of like barbed wire on a fence. It's yeah, you're not going to climb it so people can get over it. And so since then what's happened is the Cloud has become more secure than on premises for a lot of either you know, personnel reasons, culture reasons, not updating, you know, from patches to just being insecure to be more insecure. So that to me means that the flip the script can be flipped. >> Yeah. And I think with CloudNative they can build in automation and code to solve some of these problems and make it more complex for the hacker. >> Lisa: Yes. >> And increase the cost. >> Yeah, exactly. Make it more complex. Increase the cost. That'll be in interesting journey to follow. So John, here we are early February, 2023 theCUBE starting out strong as always. What year are we in, 12? Year 12? >> 13th year >> 13! What's next for theCUBE? What's coming up that excites you? >> Well, we're going to do a lot more events. We got the theCUBE in studio that I call theCUBE Center as kind of internal code word, but like, this is more about getting the word out that we can cover events remotely as events are starting to change with hybrid, digital is going to be a big part of that. So I think you're going to see a lot more CUBE on location. We're going to do, still do theCUBE and have theCUBE cover events from the studio to get deeper perspective because we can then bring people in remote through our our studio team. We can bring our CUBE alumni in. We have a corpus of content and experts to bring to table. So I think the coverage will be increased. The expertise and data will be flowing through theCUBE and so Cube Center, CUBE CUBE Studio. >> Lisa: Love it. >> Will be a integral part of our coverage. >> I love that. And we have such great conversations with guests in person, but also virtually, digitally as well. We still get the voices of the practitioners and the customers and the vendors and the partner ecosystem really kind of lauded loud and clear through theCUBE megaphone as I would say. >> And of course getting the clips out there, getting the highlights. >> Yeah. >> Getting more stories. No stories too small for theCUBE. We can make it easy to get the best content. >> The best content. John, it's been fun covering CloudNative security CON with you with you. And Dave and our guests, thank you so much for the opportunity and looking forward to the next event. >> John: All right. We'll see you at Amsterdam. >> Yeah, I'll be there. We want to thank you so much for watching TheCUBES's two day coverage of CloudNative Security CON 23. We're live in Palo Alto. You are live wherever you are and we appreciate your time and your view of this event. For John Furrier, Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching guys. We'll see you at the next show.

>> John Furrier: Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 2023 North America the inaugural event. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, along with Dave Alonte and Lisa Martin covering from the studio. But we have on location Emmy Eide, who is with Red Hat, director of Supply Chain Security. Emmy, great to have you on from location. Thanks for joining us. >> Emmy Eide: Yeah, thank you. >> So everyone wants to know this event is new, it's an aural event, cloud native con, coup con. Very successful. Was this event successful? They all want to know what's going on there. What's the vibe? What's the tracks like? Is it different? Why this event? Was it successful? What's different? >> Yeah, I've really enjoyed being here. The food is wonderful. There's also quite a few vendors here that are just some really cool emerging technologies coming out and a lot from open source, which is really cool to see as well. The talks are very interesting. It's really, they're very diverse in subject but still all security related which is really cool to see. And there's also a lot of different perspectives of how to approach security problems and the people behind them, which I love to see. And it's very nice to hear the different innovative ideas that we can go about doing security. >> We heard from some startups as well that they're very happy with the, with the decision to have a dedicated event. Red Hat is no stranger to open source. Obviously coup con, you guys are very successful there in cloud native con, Now the security con. Why do you think they did this? What's the vibe? What's the rationale? What's your take on this? And what's different from a topic standpoint? >> For non-security specific like events? Is that what you mean? >> What's different from coup con, cloud native con, and here at the cloud native security con? Obviously security's the focus. Is it just deeper dives? Is it more under the hood? Is it root problems or is this beyond Kubernetes? What's the focus, I guess. People want to know, you know, why the new event? >> I mean, there's a lot of focus on supply chain security, right? Like that's the hot topic in security right now. So that's been a huge focus. I can't speak to the differences of those other conferences. I haven't been able to attend them. But I will say that having a security specific conference, it really focuses on the open community and how technology is evolving, and how do you apply security. It's not just talking about tools which I think other conferences tend to focus on just the tools and you can really, I think, get lost in that as someone trying to learn about security or trying to even implement security, but they talk about what it takes to implement those tools, What's behind the people behind implementing those tools? >> Let's get into some of the key topics that we've identified and get your reaction. One, supply chain security, which I know you'll give a lot of commentary on 'cause that's your focus. Also we heard, like, Liz Rice talking about the extended Berkeley packet filtering. Okay, that's big. You know, your root kernel management, that's big. Developer productivity was kind of implied around removing the blockers of security, making it, you know, more aligned with developer first mentality. So that seems to be our takeaway. What's your reaction to those things? You see the same thing? >> I don't have a specific reaction to those things. >> Do you see the same thing happening on the ground there? Are they covering supply? >> Oh, yeah. >> Those three things are they the big focus? >> Yeah. Yeah, I think it's all of those things kind of like wrapped into one, right? But yeah, there's... I'm not sure how to answer your question. >> Well, let's jump into supply chain for instance. 'Cause that has come up a lot. >> Sure. >> What's the focus there on the supply chain security? Is it SBOMs? Is it the container security? What's the key conversations and topics being discussed around supply chain security? >> Well, I think there's a lot of laughter around SBOM right now because no one can really define it, specifically, and everyone's talking about it. So there's, there's a lot more than just the SBOM conversation. We're talking about like full end-to-end development process and that whole software supply chain that goes with it. So there's everything from infrastructure, security, all the way through to like signing transparency logs. Really the full gambit of supply chain, which is is really neat to see because it is such a broad topic. I think a lot of folks now are involved in supply chain security in some way. And so just kind of bringing that to the surface of what are the different people that are involved in this space, thinking about, what's on the top of their mind when it comes to supply chain security. >> How would you scope the order of magnitude of the uptick in supply chain attacks? Is it pretty heavy right now or is it, you know, people with the hair on fire or is it... What's the, give us the taste of the temperature in the room on the supply chain attacks? >> I think most of the folks who are involved in the space understand just that it's increasing. I mean, like, what is it? A 742% increase average annual year, year over year in supply chain attacks. So the amount of attacks increasing is a little daunting, right, for most of us. But it is what it is. So I think most of us right now are just trying to come together to say, "What are you doing that works? This is what I'm doing that works." And in all the different facets of that. 'cause I think we try to throw, we try to throw tools at a lot of problems and this problem is so big and broad reaching that we really are needing to share best practices as a community and as a security community. So this has been, this conference has been really great for that. >> Yeah, I've heard that a lot. You know, too many tools, not enough platform thinking, not enough architecture, needs some structure. Are you seeing any best practice around frameworks and structure around how to start getting in and and building out more of a better approach or posture? I mean, what's that, what's the, what's the state of the union for supply chain, how to handle that? >> Well, I talked about that a little bit in my my keynote that I gave, actually, which was about... And I've heard other other leaders talk about it too. And obviously it keyed my ear just because I'm so passionate about it, about partnership. So you know, empathetic security where the security team that's enforcing the policies, creating the policies, guidelines is working with the teams that are actually doing the production and the development, hand-in-hand, right? Like I can sit there and tell you, "Hey, you have all these problems and here's your security checklist or framework you need to follow." But that's not going to do them any good and it's going to create a ton of holes, right? So actually partnering with them helping them to understand the risks that are associated with their very specific need and use case, because every product has a different kind of quirk to it, right? Like how it's being developed. It might use a different tool and if I sit there and say, "Hey, you need to log on to this, you need to like make your tool work this platform over here and it's not compatible." I'm going to have to completely reframe how I'm doing productization. I need to know that as a security practitioner because me disrupting productization is not something that I should be doing. And I've heard a couple a couple of folks kind of talking about that, the people aspect behind how we implement these tools, the frameworks and the platforms, and how do we draw out risk, right? Like how do we talk about risk with these teams and really make them understand so it's part of their core culture in their understanding. So when they go back to their, when they go back and having to make decisions without me in the room they know they can make those business decisions with the risk as part of that decision. >> I love that empathetic angle because that's really going to, what needs to happen. It's not just, "Hey, that's your department, see you later." Or not even having a knowledge of the information. This idea of team construction, team management is a huge cultural shift. I'm sure the reaction was very positive. How do you explain that to an organization that's out there? Like how do you... what's the first three steps you got to take? Is there anything that you can share for advice people watch you saying, "Yeah we need to we need to change how our teams operate and interact with each other." >> Yeah, I think the first step is to take a good hard look at yourself. And if you are standing there on an ivory tower with a clipboard, you're probably doing it wrong. Check the box security is never going to be any way that works long term. It's going to take you a long time to implement any changes. At Red Hat, we did not look ourselves. You know, we've been doing a lot of great things in supply chain security for a while, but really taking that look and saying, "How can we be more empathetic leaders in the security space?" So we looked at that, then you say, "Okay, what is my my rate of change going to happen?" So if I need to make so many security changes explaining to these organizations, you're actually going to go faster. We improved our efficiency by 2000% just by doing that, just by creating this more empathetic. So why it seems like it's more hands-on, so it's going to be harder, it's easy to send out an email and say, "Hey, meet the security standard, right?" That might seem like the easy way 'cause you don't have time to engage. It's so much faster if you actually engage and share that message and have a a common understanding between the teams that like, "I'm here to deliver a product, so is the security team. The security team's here to deliver that same product and I want to help you do it in a trusted way." Right? >> Yeah. Dave Alonte, my co-host, was just on a session. We were talking together about security teams jumping on every team and putting a C on their jersey to be like the captain of the intramural team, and being involved, and it goes beyond just like the checklist, like you said, "Oh, I got the SBOM list of materials and I got a code scanning thing." That's not enough, is what we're hearing. >> No. >> Is there a framework or a methodology to go beyond that? You got the empathetic, that's really kind of team issue. You got to go beyond some of the tactical things. What's next beyond, you got the empathy and what's that framework structure when you say where you say anything there? >> So what do you do after you have the empathy, right? >> Yeah. >> I would say Salsa is a good place to start, the software levels. Supply chain levels for software artifacts. It's a mouthful. That's a really good maturity framework to start with. No matter what size organization you have, they're just going to be coming out here soon with version one. They release 0.1 a few months back. That's a really good place to give yourself a gut check of where you are in maturity and where you can go, what are best practices. And then there's the SSDF, which is the Secure Software Development framework. I think NIST wrote that one. But that is also a really, a really good framework and they map really well to each other, actually, When you work through Salsa, you're actually working through the SSDF requirements. >> Awesome. Well, great to have you on and great to get that that knowledge. I have to ask you like coup con, I remember when it started in Seattle, their first coup con events, right? Kind of small, similar to this one, but there's a lot of end user activities. Certainly the CNCF kind of was coming together like right after that. What's the end user activity like there this week? That seems to always been the driver of these events. It's a little bit organic. You got some of the key experts coming together, focus. Have you observed any end user activity in terms of contributions, participation? What's the story on the end user piece there? Is it heavy? Is it light? What's the... >> Um, yeah... It seems moderate. I guess somewhere in the middle. I would say largely heavy, but there's definitely participation. There is a lot of communing and networking happening between different organizations to partner together, which is important. But I haven't really paid attention much to like the Twitter side of this. >> Yeah, you've been busy doing the keynotes. How's Red Hat doing all this? You guys have been great positioned with the cloud native movement. Been following the Red Hat's moves since OpenStack days. Really good, good line of product, good open source, Mojo, of course. Good product mix, right, and relevant. Where's the security focus here? Obviously, you guys are clearly focused on security. How's the Red Hat story going on over there? >> There was yesterday a really good talk that explains that super well. It was given by a Red Hatter, connecting all of the open source projects we've been a part of and kind of explaining them. And obviously again, I'm keying in 'cause it's a supply chain kind of conversation, but I'd recommend that anyone who's going to go back and watch these on YouTube to check that one out just to see kind of how we're approaching the security space as well as how we contribute back to the community in that way. >> Awesome. Great to have you on. Final word, I'll give you the final word. What's the big buzz on supply chain? How would you peg the progress there? Feeling good about where things are? What's the current progress on supply chain security? >> I think that it has opened up a lot of doors for communication between security organizations that have tended to be closed. I'm in product security. Product securities, information securities tend to not speak externally about what we're doing. So you don't want to, you know, look bad or you don't want to expose any risk that we have, right? But it is, I think, necessary to open those lines of communication, to be able to start tackling this. It's a big problem throughout all of our industries, and if one supply chain is attacked and those products are used in someone else's supply chain, that can continue, right? So I think it's good. We have a lot of work to do as an industry and the advancements in technology is going to make that a little bit more complicated. But I'm excited for it. >> You can just throw AI at it. That's the big, everyone's doing AI. Just throw AI at it, it'll solve it. Isn't that the new thing? >> I do secure AI though. >> Super important. I love what you're doing there. Supply chain, open source needs, supply chain security. Open source needs this big time. It has to be there. Thank you for the work that you do. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, good stuff. Supply chain, critical to open source growth. Open source is going to be the key to success in the future with automation and AI right around the corner. And that's important. This theCUBE covers from cloud native con, security con in North America, 2023. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(energetic music plays) >> Lisa: Hey everyone, we're so glad you're here with us. theCUBE is covering Cloud Native Security Con 23. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is our second day of coverage of the event. We've had some great conversations with a lot of intellectual, exciting folks, as you know cuz you've been watching. John and I are very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE Taylor Dolezal joins us the head of ecosystem at CNCF. Taylor, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Taylor: Hey everybody, great to see you again. >> Lisa: So you are on the ground in Seattle. We're jealous. We've got fomo as John would say. Talk to us about, this is a inaugural event. We were watching Priyanka keynote yesterday. Seemed like a lot of folks there, 72 sessions a lot of content, a lot of discussions. What's the buzz, what's the reception of this inaugural event from your perspective? >> Taylor: So it's been really fantastic. I think the number one thing that has come out of this conference so far is that it's a wonderful chance to come together and for people to see one another. It's, it's been a long time that we've kind of had that opportunity to be able to interact with folks or you know, it's just a couple months since last Cube Con. But this is truly a different vibe and it's nice to have that focus on security. We're seeing a lot of folks within different organizations work through different problems and then finally have a vendor neutral space in which to talk about all of those contexts and really raise everybody up with all this new knowledge and new talking points, topics, and different facets of knowledge. >> John: Taylor, we were joking on our yesterday's summary of the keynotes, Dave Vellante and I, and the guests, Lisa and I, about the CNCF having an event operating system, you know, very decoupled highly cohesive events, strung together beautifully through the Linux Foundation, you know, kind of tongue in cheek but it was kind of fun to play on words because it's a very technical community. But the business model of, of hackers is booming. The reality of businesses booming and Cloud Native is the preferred developer environment for the future application. So the emphasis, it's very clear that this is a good move to do and targeting the community around security's a solid move. Amazon's done it with reinforce and reinvent. We see that Nice segmentation. What's the goal? Because this is really where it connects to Cube Con and Cloud Native Con as well because this shift left there too. But here it's very much about hardcore Cloud Native security. What's your positioning on this? Am I getting it right or is there is that how you guys see it? >> Taylor: Yeah, so, so that's what we've see that's what we were talking about as well as we were thinking on breaking this event out. So originally this event was a co-located event during the Cube Con windows in both Europe and North America. And then it just was so consistently popular clearly a topic that people wanted to talk, which is good that people want to talk of security. And so when we saw this massive continued kind of engagement, we wanted to break this off into its own conference. When we were going through that process internally, like you had mentioned the events team is just phenomenal to work with and they, I love how easy that they make it for us to be able to do these kinds of events too though we wanted to talk through how we differentiate this event from others and really what's changed for us and kind of how we see this space is that we didn't really see any developer-centric open source kinds of conferences. Ones that were really favoring of the developer and focus on APIs and ways in which to implement these things across all of your workloads within your organization. So that's truly what we're looking to go for here during these, all of these sessions. And that's how it's been playing out so far which has been really great to see. >> John: Taylor, I want to ask you on the ecosystem obviously the built-in ecosystem at CNCF.IO with Cube Cons Cloud Cons there, this is a new ecosystem opportunity to add more people that are security focused. Is their new entrance coming into the fold and what's been the reaction? >> Taylor: So short answer is yes we've seen a huge uptick across our vendor members and those are people that are creating Cloud offerings and selling those and working with others to implement them as well as our end users. So people consuming Cloud Native projects and using them to power core parts of their business. We have gotten a lot of data from groups like IBM and security, IBM security and put 'em on institute. They gave us a cost of data breach report that Priyanka mentioned and talked about 43% of those organizations haven't started or in the early stages of updating security practices of their cloud environments and then here on the ground, you know, talking through some best practices and really sharing those out as well. So it's, I've gotten to hear pieces and parts of different conversations and and I'm certain we'll hear more about those soon but it's just really been great to, to hear everybody with that main focus of, hey, there's more that we can do within the security space and you know, let's let's help one another out on that front just because it is such a vast landscape especially in the security space. >> Lisa: It's a huge landscape. And to your point earlier, Taylor it's everyone has the feeling that it's just so great to be back together again getting folks out of the silos that they've been operating in for such a long time. But I'd love to get some of your, whatever you can share in terms of some of the Cloud Native security projects that you've heard about over the last day or so. Anything exciting that you think is really demonstrating the value already and this inaugural event? >> Taylor: Yes, so I I've been really excited to hear a lot of, personally I've really liked the talks around EBPF. There are a whole bunch of projects utilizing that as far as runtime security goes and actually getting visibility into your workloads and being able to see things that you do expect and things that you don't expect and how to remediate those. And then I keep hearing a lot of talks about open policy agents and projects like Caverno around you know, how do we actually automate different policies or within regulated industries, how do we actually start to solve those problems? So I've heard even more around CNCF projects and other contexts that have come up but truly most of them have been around the telemetry space EBPF and, and quite a few others. So really great to, to see all those projects choosing something to bind to and making it that much more accessible for folks to implement or build on top of as well. >> John: I love the reference you guys had just the ChatGPT that was mentioned in the keynote yesterday and also the reference to Dan Kaminsky who was mentioned on the reference to DNS and Bind, lot of root level security going on. It seems like this is like a Tiger team event where all the top alpha security gurus come together, Priyanka said, experts bottoms up, developer first practitioners, that's the vibe. Is that kind of how you guys want it to be more practitioners hardcore? >> Taylor: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that when it comes to security, we really want to help. It's definitely a grassroots movement. It's great to have the people that have such a deep understanding of certain security, just bits of knowledge really when it comes to EBPF. You know, we have high surveillance here that we're talking things through. Falco is here with Sysdig and so it it's great to have all of these people here, though I have seen a good spread of folks that are, you know, most people have started their security journey but they're not where they want to be. And so people that are starting at a 2 0 1, 3 0 1, 4 0 1 level of understanding definitely seeing a good spread of knowledge on that front. But it's really, it's been great to have folks from all varying experiences, but then to have the expertise of the folks that are writing these specifications and pushing the boundaries of what's possible with security to to ensure that we're all okay and updated on that front too, I think was most notable yesterday. Like you had said >> Lisa: Sorry Taylor, when we think of security, again this is an issue that, that organizations in every industry face, nobody is immune to this. We can talk about the value in it for the hackers in terms of ransomware alone for example. But you mentioned a stat that there's a good amount of organizations that are really either early in their security journeys or haven't started yet which kind of sounds a bit scary given the landscape and how much has changed in the last couple of years. But it sounds like on the good news front it isn't too late for organizations. Talk a little bit about some of the recommendations and best practices for those organizations who are behind the curve knowing that the next attack is going to happen. >> Taylor: Absolutely. So fantastic question. I think that when it comes to understanding the fact that people need to implement security and abide by best practices, it's like I I'm sure that many of us can agree on that front, you know, hopefully all of us. But when it comes to actually implementing that, that's I agree with you completely. That's where it's really difficult to find where where do I start, where do I actually look at? And there are a couple of answers on that front. So within the CNTF ecosystem we have a technical action group security, so tag security and they have a whole bunch of working groups that cover different facets of the Cloud Native experience. So if you, for example, are concerned about runtime security or application delivery concerns within there, those are some really good places to find people knowledgeable about, that even when the conference isn't going on to get a sense of what's going on. And then TAG security has also published recently version two of their security report which is free accessible online. They can actually look through that, see what some of the recent topics are and points of focus and of interest are within our community. There are also other organizations like Open SSF which is taking a deeper dive into security. You know, initially kind of having a little bit more of an academic focus on that space and then now getting further into things around software bill materials or SBOMs supply chain security and other topics as well. >> John: Well we love you guys doing this. We think it's very big deal. We think it's important. We're starting to see events post COVID take a certain formation, you know joking aside about the event operating systems smaller events are happening, but they're tied together. And so this is key. And of course the critical need is our businesses are under siege with threats, ransomware, security challenges, that's IT moves to Cloud Native, not everyone's moved over yet. So that's in progress. So there's a huge business imperative and the hackers have a business model. So this isn't like pie in the sky, this is urgent. So, that being said, how do you see this developing from who should attend the next one or who are you looking for to be involved to get input from you guys are open arms and very diverse and great great culture there, but who are you looking for? What's the makeup persona that you hope to attract and nurture and grow? >> Taylor: Absolutely. I, think that when it comes to trying the folks that we're looking for the correct answer is it varies you know, from, you know, you're asking Priyanka or our executive director or Chris Aniszczyk our CTO, I work mostly with the end users, so for me personally I really want to see folks that are operating within our ecosystem and actually pulling these down, these projects down and using them and sharing those stories. Because there are people creating these projects and contributing to them might not always have an idea of how they're used or how they can be exploited too. A lot of these groups that I work with like Mercedes or Intuit for example, they're out there in the world using these, these projects and getting a sense for, you know, what can come up. And by sharing that knowledge I think that's what's most important across the board. So really looking for those stories to be told and novel ways in which people are trying to exploit security and attacking the supply chain, or building applications, or just things we haven't thought about. So truly that that developer archetype is really helpful to have the consumers, the end users, the folks that are actually using these. And then, yeah, and I'm truly anywhere knowledgeable about security or that wants to learn more >> John: Super important, we're here to help you scale those stories up whatever you need, send them our way. We're looking forward to getting those. This is a super important movement getting the end users who are on the front lines bringing it back into the open, building, more software, making it secure and verified, all super important. We really appreciate the mission you guys are on and again we're here to help. So send those stories our way. >> Taylor: Cool, cool. We couldn't do it without you. Yeah, just everyone contributing, everyone sharing the news. This is it's people, people is the is the true operating system of our ecosystem. So really great to, really great to share. >> Lisa: That's such a great point Taylor. It is all about people. You talked about this event having a different vibe. I wanted to learn a little bit more about that as we, as we wrap up because there's so much cultural change that's required for organizations to evolve their security practices. And so people of course are at the center of culture. Talk a little bit about why that vibe is different and do you think that yeah, it's finally time. Everyone's getting on the same page here we're understanding, we're learning from each other. >> Taylor: Yes. So, so to kind of answer that, I think it's really a focus on, there's this term shift left and shift right. And talking about where do we actually put security in the mix as it comes to people adopting this and and figuring out where things go. And if you keep shifting at left, that meaning that the developers should care more deeply about this and a deeper understanding of all of these, you know, even if it's, even if they don't understand how to put it together, maybe understand a little bit about it or how these topics and, and facets of knowledge work. But you know, like with anything, if you shift everything off to one side or the other that's also not going to be efficient. You know, you want a steady stream of knowledge flowing throughout your whole organization. So I think that that's been something that has been a really interesting topic and, and hearing people kind of navigate and try to get through, especially groups that have had, you know, deployed an app and it's going to be around for 40 years as well. So I think that those are some really interesting and unique areas of focus that I've come up on the floor and then in a couple of the sessions here >> Lisa: There's got to be that, that balance there. Last question as we wrap the last 30 seconds or so what are you excited about given the success and the momentum of day one? What excites you about what's ahead for us on day two? >> Taylor: So on day two, I'm really, it's, there's just so many sessions. I think that it was very difficult for me to, you know pick which one I was actually going to go see. There are a lot of favorites that I had kind of doubled up at each of the time so I'm honestly going to be in a lot of the sessions today. So really excited about that. Supply chain security is definitely one that's close to my heart as well but I'm really curious to see what new topics, concepts or novel ideas people have to kind of exploit things. Like one for example is a package is out there it's called Browser Test but somebody came up with one called Bowser Test. Just a very simple misname and then when you go and run that it does a fake kind of like, hey you've been exploited and just even these incorrect name attacks. That's something that is really close and dear to me as well. Kind of hearing about all these wild things people wouldn't think about in terms of exploitation. So really, really excited to hear more stories on that front and better protect myself both at home and within the Cloud Community as I stand these things up. >> Lisa: Absolutely you need to clone yourself so that you can, there's so many different sessions. There needs to be multiple versions of Taylor that you can attend and then you can all get together and talk about and learn. But that's actually a really good problem to have as we mentioned when we started 72 sessions yesterday and today. Lots of great content. Taylor, we thank you for your participation. We thank you for bringing the vibe and the buzz of the event to us and we look forward as well to hearing and seeing what day two brings us today. Thank you so much for your time Taylor. >> Taylor: Thank you for having me. >> John: All right >> Lisa: Right, for our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube's Day two coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. (energetic music plays)

(lively music) >> Welcome back to our coverage of Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante, here in our Boston studio. We're connecting today, throughout the day, with Palo Alto on the ground in Seattle. And right now I'm here with Michael Foster with Red Hat. He's on the ground in Seattle. We're going to discuss the trends and containers and security and everything that's going on at the show in Seattle. Michael, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you, thanks for having me on. >> Lot of market momentum for Red Hat. The IBM earnings call the other day, announced OpenShift is a billion-dollar ARR. So it's quite a milestone, and it's not often, you know. It's hard enough to become a billion-dollar software company and then to have actually a billion-dollar product alongside. So congratulations on that. And let's start with the event. What's the buzz at the event? People talking about shift left, obviously supply chain security is a big topic. We've heard a little bit about or quite a bit about AI. What are you hearing on the ground? >> Yeah, so the last event I was at that I got to see you at was three months ago, with CubeCon and the talk was supply chain security. Nothing has really changed on that front, although I do think that the conversation, let's say with the tech companies versus what customers are actually looking at, is slightly different just based on the market. And, like you said, thank you for the shout-out to a billion-dollar OpenShift, and ACS is certainly excited to be part of that. We are seeing more of a consolidation, I think, especially in security. The money's still flowing into security, but people want to know what they're running. We've allowed, had some tremendous growth in the last couple years and now it's okay. Let's get a hold of the containers, the clusters that we're running, let's make sure everything's configured. They want to start implementing policies effectively and really get a feel for what's going on across all their workloads, especially with the bigger companies. I think bigger companies allow some flexibility in the security applications that they can deploy. They can have different groups that manage different ones, but in the mid to low market, you're seeing a lot of consolidation, a lot of companies that want basically one security tool to manage them all, so to speak. And I think that the features need to somewhat accommodate that. We talk supply chain, I think most people continue to care about network security, vulnerability management, shifting left and enabling developers. That's the general trend I see. Still really need to get some hands on demos and see some people that I haven't seen in a while. >> So a couple things on, 'cause, I mean, we talk about the macroeconomic climate all the time. We do a lot of survey data with our partners at ETR, and their recent data shows that in terms of cost savings, for those who are actually cutting their budgets, they're looking to consolidate redundant vendors. So, that's one form of consolidation. The other theme, of course, is there's so many tools out in the security market that consolidating tools is something that can help simplify, but then at the same time, you see opportunities open up, like IOT security. And so, you have companies that are starting up to just do that. So, there's like these countervailing trends. I often wonder, Michael, will this ever end? It's like the universe growing and tooling, what are your thoughts? >> I mean, I completely agree. It's hard to balance trying to grow the company in a time like this, at the same time while trying to secure it all, right? So you're seeing the consolidation but some of these applications and platforms need to make some promises to say, "Hey, we're going to move into this space." Right, so when you have like Red Hat who wants to come out with edge devices and help manage the IOT devices, well then, you have a security platform that can help you do that, that's built in. Then the messaging's easy. When you're trying to do that across different cloud providers and move into IOT, it becomes a little bit more challenging. And so I think that, and don't take my word for this, some of those IOT startups, you might see some purchasing in the next couple years in order to facilitate those cloud platforms to be able to expand into that area. To me it makes sense, but I don't want to hypothesize too much from the start. >> But I do, we just did our predictions post and as a security we put up the chart of candidates, and there's like dozens, and dozens, and dozens. Some that are very well funded, but I mean, you've seen some down, I mean, down rounds everywhere, but these many companies have raised over a billion dollars and it's like uh-oh, okay, so they're probably okay, maybe. But a lot of smaller firms, I mean there's just, there's too many tools in the marketplace, but it seems like there is misalignment there, you know, kind of a mismatch between, you know, what customers would like to have happen and what actually happens in the marketplace. And that just underscores, I think, the complexities in security. So I guess my question is, you know, how do you look at Cloud Native Security, and what's different from traditional security approaches? >> Okay, I mean, that's a great question, and it's something that we've been talking to customers for the last five years about. And, really, it's just a change in mindset. Containers are supposed to unleash developer speed, and if you don't have a security tool to help do that, then you're basically going to inhibit developers in some form or another. I think managing that, while also giving your security teams the ability to tell the message of we are being more secure. You know, we're limiting vulnerabilities in our cluster. We are seeing progress because containers, you know, have a shorter life cycle and there is security and speed. Having that conversation with the C-suites is a little different, especially when how they might be used to virtual machines and managing it through that. I mean, if it works, it works from a developer's standpoint. You're not taking advantage of those containers and the developer's speed, so that's the difference. Now doing that and then first challenge is making that pitch. The second challenge is making that pitch to then scale it, so you can get onboard your developers and get your containers up and running, but then as you bring in new groups, as you move over to Kubernetes or you get into more container workloads, how do you onboard your teams? How do you scale? And I tend to see a general trend of a big investment needed for about two years to make that container shift. And then the security tools come in and really blossom because once that core separation of responsibilities happens in the organization, then the security tools are able to accelerate the developer workflow and not inhibit it. >> You know, I'm glad you mentioned, you know, separation of responsibilities. We go to a lot of shows, as you know, with theCUBE, and many of them are cloud shows. And in the one hand, Cloud has, you know, obviously made the world, you know, more interesting and better in so many different ways and even security, but it's like new layers are forming. You got the cloud, you got the shared responsibility model, so the cloud is like the first line of defense. And then you got the CISO who is relying heavily on devs to, you know, the whole shift left thing. So we're asking developers to do a lot and then you're kind of behind them. I guess you have audit is like the last line of defense, but my question to you is how can software developers really ensure that cloud native tools that they're using are secure? What steps can they take to improve security and specifically what's Red Hat doing in that area? >> Yeah, well I think there's, I would actually move away from that being the developer responsibility. I think the job is the operators' and the security people. The tools to give them the ability to see. The vulnerabilities they're introducing. Let's say signing their images, actually verifying that the images that's thrown in the cloud, are the ones that they built, that can all be done and it can be done open source. So we have a DevSecOps validated pattern that Red Hat's pushed out, and it's all open source tools in the cloud native space. And you can sign your builds and verify them at runtime and make sure that you're doing that all for free as one option. But in general, I would say that the hope is that you give the developer the information to make responsible choices and that there's a dialogue between your security and operations and developer teams but security, we should not be pushing that on developer. And so I think with ACS and our tool, the goal is to get in and say, "Let's set some reasonable policies, have a conversation, let's get a security liaison." Let's say in the developer team so that we can make some changes over time. And the more we can automate that and the more we can build and have that conversation, the better that you'll, I don't say the more security clusters but I think that the more you're on your path of securing your environment. >> How much talk is there at the event about kind of recent high profile incidents? We heard, you know, Log4j, of course, was mentioned in the Keynote. Somebody, you know, I think yelled out from the audience, "We're still dealing with that." But when you think about these, you know, incidents when looking back, what lessons do you think we've learned from these events? >> Oh, I mean, I think that I would say, if you have an approach where you're managing your containers, managing the age and using containers to accelerate, so let's say no images that are older than 90 days, for example, you're going to avoid a lot of these issues. And so I think people that are still dealing with that aspect haven't set up the proper, let's say, disclosure between teams and update strategy and so on. So I don't want to, I think the Log4j, if it's still around, you know, something's missing there but in general you want to be able to respond quickly and to do that and need the tools and policies to be able to tell people how to fix that issue. I mean, the Log4j fix was seven days after, so your developers should have been well aware of that. Your security team should have been sending the messages out. And I remember even fielding all the calls, all the fires that we had to put out when that happened. But yeah. >> I thought Brian Behlendorf's, you know, talk this morning was interesting 'cause he was making an attempt to say, "Hey, here's some things that you might not be thinking about that are likely to occur." And I wonder if you could, you know, comment on them and give us your thoughts as to how the industry generally, maybe Red Hat specifically, are thinking about dealing with them. He mentioned ChatGPT or other GPT to automate Spear phishing. He said the identity problem is still not fixed. Then he talked about free riders sniffing repos essentially for known vulnerabilities that are slow to fix. He talked about regulations that might restrict shipping code. So these are things that, you know, essentially, we can, they're on the radar, but you know, we're kind of putting out, you know, yesterday's fire. What are your thoughts on those sort of potential issues that we're facing and how are you guys thinking about it? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's twofold. One, it's brought up in front of a lot of security leaders in the space for them to be aware of it because security, it's a constant battle, constant war that's being fought. ChatGPT lowers the barrier of entry for a lot of them, say, would-be hackers or people like that to understand systems and create, let's say, simple manifests to leverage Kubernetes or leverage a misconfiguration. So as the barrier drops, we as a security team in security, let's say group organization, need to be able to respond and have our own tools to be able to combat that, and we do. So a lot of it is just making sure that we shore up our barriers and that people are aware of these threats. The harder part I think is educating the public and that's why you tend to see maybe the supply chain trend be a little bit ahead of the implementation. I think they're still, for example, like S-bombs and signing an attestation. I think that's still, you know, a year, two years, away from becoming, let's say commonplace, especially in something like a production environment. Again, so, you know, stay bleeding edge, and then make sure that you're aware of these issues and we'll be constantly coming to these calls and filling you in on what we're doing and make sure that we're up to speed. >> Yeah, so I'm hearing from folks like yourself that the, you know, you think of the future of Cloud Native Security. We're going to see continued emphasis on, you know, better integration of security into the DevSecOps. You're pointing out it's really, you know, the ops piece, that runtime that we really need to shore up. You can't just put it on the shoulders of the devs. And, you know, using security focused tools and best practices. Of course you hear a lot about that and the continued drive toward automation. My question is, you know, automation, machine learning, how, where are we in that maturity cycle? How much of that is being adopted? Sometimes folks are, you know, they embrace automation but it brings, you know, unknown, unintended consequences. Are folks embracing that heavily? Are there risks associated around that, or are we kind of through that knothole in your view? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I would compare it to something like a smart home. You know, we sort of hit a wall. You can automate so much, but it has to actually be useful to your teams. So when we're going and deploying ACS and using a cloud service, like one, you know, you want something that's a service that you can easily set up. And then the other thing is you want to start in inform mode. So you can't just automate everything, even if you're doing runtime enforcement, you need to make sure that's very, very targeted to exactly what you want and then you have to be checking it because people start new workloads and people get onboarded every week or month. So it's finding that balance between policies where you can inform the developer and the operations teams and that they give them the information to act. And that worst case you can step in as a security team to stop it, you know, during the onboarding of our ACS cloud service. We have an early access program and I get on-calls, and it's not even security team, it's the operations team. It starts with the security product, you know, and sometimes it's just, "Hey, how do I, you know, set this policy so my developers will find this vulnerability like a Log4Shell and I just want to send 'em an email, right?" And these are, you know, they have the tools and they can do that. And so it's nice to see the operations take on some security. They can automate it because maybe you have a NetSec security team that doesn't know Kubernetes or containers as well. So that shared responsibility is really useful. And then just again, making that automation targeted, even though runtime enforcement is a constant thing that we talk about, the amount that we see it in the wild where people are properly setting up admission controllers and it's acting. It's, again, very targeted. Databases, cubits x, things that are basically we all know is a no-go in production. >> Thank you for that. My last question, I want to go to the, you know, the hardest part and 'cause you're talking to customers all the time and you guys are working on the hardest problems in the world. What is the hardest aspect of securing, I'm going to come back to the software supply chain, hardest aspect of securing the software supply chain from the perspective of a security pro, software engineer, developer, DevSecOps Pro, and then this part b of that is, is how are you attacking that specifically as Red Hat? >> Sure, so as a developer, it's managing vulnerabilities with updates. As an operations team, it's keeping all the cluster, because you have a bunch of different teams working in the same environment, let's say, from a security team. It's getting people to listen to you because there are a lot of things that need to be secured. And just communicating that and getting it actionable data to the people to make the decisions as hard from a C-suite. It's getting the buy-in because it's really hard to justify the dollars and cents of security when security is constantly having to have these conversations with developers. So for ACS, you know, we want to be able to give the developer those tools. We also want to build the dashboards and reporting so that people can see their vulnerabilities drop down over time. And also that they're able to respond to it quickly because really that's where the dollars and cents are made in the product. It's that a Log4Shell comes out. You get immediately notified when the feeds are updated and you have a policy in action that you can respond to it. So I can go to my CISOs and say, "Hey look, we're limiting vulnerabilities." And when this came out, the developers stopped it in production and we were able to update it with the next release. Right, like that's your bread and butter. That's the story that you want to tell. Again, it's a harder story to tell, but it's easy when you have the information to be able to justify the money that you're spending on your security tools. Hopefully that answered your question. >> It does. That was awesome. I mean, you got data, you got communication, you got the people, obviously there's skillsets, you have of course, tooling and technology is a big part of that. Michael, really appreciate you coming on the program, sharing what's happening on the ground in Seattle and can't wait to have you back. >> Yeah. Awesome. Thanks again for having me. >> Yeah, our pleasure. All right. Thanks for watching our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante. I'm in our Boston studio. We're connecting to Palo Alto. We're connecting on the ground in Seattle. Keep it right there for more coverage. Be right back. (lively music)

(rousing music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to "theCUBE's" day one coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. This is going to be an exciting panel. I've got three great guests. I'm Lisa Martin, you know our esteemed analysts, John Furrier, and Dave Vellante well. And we're excited to welcome to "theCUBE" for the first time, Yves Sandfort, the CEO of Comdivision Group, who's coming to us from Germany. As you know, Cloud Native Security Con is a global event. Everyone welcome Yves, great to have you in particular. Welcome to "theCUBE." >> Great to be here. >> Thank you for inviting me. >> Yves, tell us a little bit, before we dig into really wanting to understand your perspectives on the event and get Dave and John's feedback as well, tell us a little bit about you. >> So yeah, talking about me, or talking about Comdivision real quick. We are in the business for over 27 years already. We started as a SaaS company, then became more like an architecture and, and Cloud Native company over the last few years. But what's interesting is, and I think that's, that's, that's really interesting when we look at our industry. It hasn't really, the requirements haven't really changed over the years. It's still security. We still have to figure out how we deal with security. We still have to figure out how we deal with compliance and everything else. And I think therefore, it's more and more important that we take these items more seriously. Also, based on the fact that when we look at it, how development and other things happen nowadays, it's, it's, everybody says it's like open source. It's great because everybody can look into the code. We, I think the last few years have shown us enough example that that's not necessarily solving all the issues, but it's also code and development has changed rapidly when we look at the Cloud Native approach, where it's far more about gluing the pieces together, versus the development pieces. When I was actually doing software development 25 years ago, and had to basically build my code because I didn't have that much internet access for it. So it has evolved, but even back then we had to deal with security and everything. >> Right. The focus on security is, is incredibly important, and the focus keeps growing as you mentioned. This is, guys, and I want to get your perspectives on this. We're going to start with John. This is the first time Cloud Native Security Con is its own event being extracted from, and amplified from KubeCon. John, I want to understand from your perspective, break down the event, what you see, what you've heard, and Cloud Native Security in general. What does this mean to companies? What does it mean to customers? Is this a reality? >> Well, I think that's the topic we want to discuss, and I think Yves background, you see the VMware certification, I love that. Because what VMware did with virtualization, was abstract that from server virtualization, kind of really changed the game on things, and you start to see Cloud Native kind of go that next level of how companies will be operating their business, not just digital transformation, as digital transformation goes to completion, it's total business transformation where IT is everywhere. And so you're starting to see the trends where, "Okay, that's happening." Now you're starting to see, that's Cloud Native Con, or KubeCon, AWS re:Invent, or whatever show, or whatever way you want to look at it. But in, in the past decade, past five years, security has always been front and center as almost a separate thing, and, in and of itself, but the same thing. So you're starting to see the breakout of security conversations around how to make things work. So a lot of operational conversations around what used to be DevOps makes infrastructure as code, and that was great, that fueled that. Then DevSecOps came. So the Cloud Native next level, is more application development at scale, developers driving the standards with developer first thinking, shifting left, I get all that. But down in the lower ends of the stack, you got real operational issues. DNS we've heard in the keynote, we heard about the Colonel, the Lennox Colonel. Things that need to be managed and taken care of at a security level. These are like, seem like in the weeds, but you're starting to see that happen. And the other thing that I think's real about Cloud Native Security Con that's going to be interesting to watch, is Amazon has pretty much canceled all their re:Invent like shows except for two; Re:Invent, which is their annual conference, and Re:Inforce, which is dedicated to securities. So Cloud Native, Linux, the Linux Foundation has now breaking out Cloud Native Con and KubeCon, and now Cloud Native Security Con. They can't call it KubeCon because it's not Kubernetes, but it's like security focus. I think this is the beginning of starting to see this new developer driving, developers driving the standards, and it has it implications, what used to be called IT ops, and that's like the VMwares of the world. You saw all the stuff that was not at developer focus, but more ops, becoming much more in the application. So I think, I think it's real. The question is where does it go? How fast does it develop? So to me, I think it's a real trend, and it's worthy of a breakout, but it's not yet clear of where the landing zone is for people to start doing it, how they get started, what are the best practices. Machine learning's going to be a big part of this. So to me it's totally cool, but I'm not yet seeing the beachhead. So that's kind of my take. >> Dave, our inventor and host of breaking analysis, what's your take? >> So when you, I think when you zoom out, there's some, there's a big macro change that's been going on. I think when you look back, let's say 10, 12 years ago, the, the need for speed far trumped the, the, the security aspect, the governance, the data privacy. It was like, "Yeah, the risks, they're not that great compared to our opportunity." That has completely changed because the risks are now so much higher. And so what's happening, I think there's a, there's a major effort amongst CIOs and CISOs to try to make security not a blocker because it use to be, it still is. "Okay, I got this great initiative." Eh, give it to the SecOps pros, and let them take it for a while before we can go to market. And so a huge challenge now is to simplify, automate, AI comes in, the whole supply chain security, so the, so the companies can not be facing so much friction. And that is non-trivial. I don't think we're anywhere close there, but I think the goal is by, within the next several years, we're going to be in a position, that security, we heard today, is, wasn't designed in to the initial internet protocols. It was bolted on. And so increasingly, the fundamental architecture of the internet, the Cloud, et cetera, is, is seeing designed in security, and, and that is an imperative, or else business is going to come to a grinding halt. >> Right. It's no longer, the bolt no longer works. Yves, what's your perspective on Cloud Native Security, where it stands today? What's in it for customers, whether we're talking about banks, or hospitals, or retailers, what do you think? >> I think when we, when we look at security in the, in the modern world, is we need to as, as Dave mentioned, we need to rethink how we apply it. Very often, security in the past has been always bolted on in the end. If we continue to do that, it'll become more and more difficult, because as companies evolve, and as companies want to bring products and software to market in a much faster and faster way, it's getting more and more difficult if we bolt on the security process at the end. It's like, developers build something and then someone checks security. That's not going to work any longer. Especially if we also consider now the changes in the industry. We had Stack Overflow over the last 10 years. If I would've had Stack Overflow 15, 20, what, 25 years ago when I was a developer, it would've changed a hell lot. Looking at it now, and looking at it what we had in the last few weeks, it's like where nearly all of my team members say is like finally I don't need any script kiddies anymore because I can't go to (indistinct) who writes the code for me. Which is on one end great, because it enables us to solve certain problems in a much higher pace. But the challenge with that is, if the people who just copy and past that code, don't understand the implications of that code, we have a much higher risk continuously. And what people thought was, is challenging with Stack Overflow. Imagine that something in one of these AI engines, is actually going ballistic, and it creates holes in nearly every one of these applications. And trust me, there will be enough developers who are going to use these tools to develop codes, the same as students in university are going to take this to write their essays and everything else. And so it's really important that every developer team basically has a security person within their team, and not a security at the end. So we build something, we check it, go through QA, and then it goes to security. Security needs to be at the forefront. And I think that's where we see Cloud Native Security Con, where we see AWS. I saw it during re:Invent already where they said is like, we have reinforced next year. I think this becomes more and more of a topic, and I think companies, as much as it is become a norm that you have a firewall and everything else, it needs to become a norm that when you are doing software development, and every development team needs to have a security person on that needs to be trained. >> I love that chat comment Dave, 'cause you and I were talking about this. And I think that is going to be the issue. Do we need security chat for the chat bot? And there's like a, like a recursive model there. The biases are built in. I think, and I think our interview with the Palo Alto Network's co-founder, Dave, when he talked about zero trust as a structured way to start things, but he was referencing that with Cloud, there's a chance to rethink or do a do-over in security. So, I think this is kind of to me, where this is all going. And I think you asked Pat Gelsinger what, year 2013, 2014, can, is security a do over? I think we're in that do over time. >> He said yes. >> He said yes. (laughing) He was right. But yeah, eight years later... But this is, how do you, zero trust gives you some structure, but how do you organize and redo security? Because to me, I think that's what's happening here. >> And John you heard, Zuk at Palo Alto Network said, "Yeah, the, the words security and architecture, they don't go together historically." And so it is a total, total retake. >> Well is that because there's too many tools out there and- >> Yeah. For sure. >> Yeah, well, first of all, a lot of hardware. And then yeah, a lot of tools. You even see IIOT and industry 40, you see IOT security coming up as another stove pipe, and that's not the right approach. And, and so- >> Well let me, let me ask you a question Dave, and Yves, if you don't mind. 'Cause I was just riffing on this yesterday about this. In the ML space, you're seeing the ML models, you're seeing proprietary models versus open source. Is security going to go down this proprietary security methods and open source? Because that's interesting, because the CNCF is run by the the Linux Foundation. So you can almost maybe see a model where there's more proprietary security methods than open source. Or is it, is that a non-issue? >> I would, I would, let me, if I, if I jump in here first, I think the last, especially last five or 10 years have clearly shown the, the whole and, and I invested early on in the, in the end 90s in several open source startups in the Bay area. So, I'm well behind the whole open source idea and, and mid (indistinct) and others back then several times. But the point is, I think what we have seen is open source is not in general, more secure or less secure, because code is too complex nowadays. You have millions of lines of code, and it's not that either one way or the other is going to solve it. The ways I think we are going to look at it is more is what's the role to market, because only because something is open source doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be available for everyone. And the same for proprietary source from that perspective, even though everybody mixes licensing and payments and all that all the time, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. But I think as we are going through it, and when we also look at the industry, security industry over the last 10 plus years has been primarily hardware focused. And a lot of these vendors have done a good business out of selling hardware boxes, putting software on top of it. Whereas in reality, those were still X86 standard boxes in the end. So it was not that we had specific security ethics or anything like that in there anymore. And so overall, the question of the market is going to change. And as we are looking into Cloud Native, think about someone like an AWS, do you really envision them to have a hardware box of every supplier in their data center, and that in every availability zone in every region? Same for Microsoft, same for Google, etc? So we need to have new ways on how we can apply security. And that applies both on the backend services, but also on the front end side. >> And if I, and if I could chime in, I think the, the good, I think the answer is, is, is no and yes. And what I mean by that is if you take, antivirus and known malware, I mean pretty much anybody today can, can solve that problem, it's the unknown malware. So I think the yes part of the answer is yes, it's, it's going to be proprietary, but in the sense we're going to use open source tooling, and then apply that in a proprietary way with, with specific algorithms and unique architectures that are going to solve problems. For example, XDR with, with unknown malware. So, and that's the, that's the hard part. As somebody said, I think this morning at the keynote, it's, it's all the stuff that, that the SecOps team couldn't find. That's the really hard part. >> (laughs) Well the question will be will, is the new IP, the ability to feed ChatGPT some magical spelled insertion query string that does the job, that's unique, that might be the new IP, the the question to ask. >> Well, that's what the hackers are going to do. And I, they're on offense. (John laughs) And the offense knows what play is coming. So, they're going to start. >> So guys, let's take this conversation up a level. I want to get your perspectives on what's in this for me as a customer? We know security is a board level conversation. We talk about this all the time. We also know that they're based on, I think David, was the conversations that you and I had, with Palo Alto Networks at Ignite in December. There's a, there's a lack of alignment between the executives and the board from a security perspective. When we talk about Cloud Native Security, we all talked about the value in that, what's in it for customers? I want to get your perspectives on should this be a board level conversation, and if so, how do you advise organizations, whether it is a hospital, or a bank, or an organization that is really affected by things like ransomware? How should they be thinking about this from an organizational perspective? >> Well, I'll start first, because we had this conversation during our Super Cloud event last month, and this comes up a lot. And this is, the CEO board level. Yes it is a board level conversation for security, as is application development as in terms of transforming their business to be competitive, not to be on the wrong side of history with this wave coming. So I think that's more of a management. But the issue is, they tell their people, "Go do it." And they're like, 'cause they get sold on the idea of, "Hey, won't you transform your business, and everything's going to be data driven, and machine learning's going to power your apps, get new customers, be profitable." "Oh, sign me up for that." When you have to implement this, it's really hard. And I think the core issue is, where are companies in their life cycle of the ability to execute and architect this thing properly as Dave said, Nick Zuk said, "You can't have architecture and security, you need platforms." So, I think the re-platforming, and the re-factoring of business is a big factor, and that's got to get down into the, the organizational shifts and the people to do it. So are there skills? Do I do a managed service? How do I architect it? Are there more services? Are there developers doing applications that are going to be more agile? So, this is not an easy thing. And to move a business from IT operations that is proven, to be positioned for this enablement, is just really difficult. And it's expensive. And if you screw it up, you could be, could be on the wrong side of things. So, to me, that's the big issue is, you sell the dream and then you got to implement it. And that's really difficult. >> Yves, give us your perspective on, based on John's comments, how do organizations shift so dramatically? There's a cultural element there as well, but there's also organizations that are, have competitive competitors in the rear view mirror, and there's time to waste. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think that's exactly the point. It's like, as an organization, you need to take the decision between the time, the risk, and all the other elements we have into this game. Because you can try to achieve 100% security, but that's exactly the same as trying to, to protect gold or anything else 100%. It's most likely not going to be from a risk perspective anyway sensible. And that's the same from a corporational perspective. When you look at building new internet services, or IOT services, or any kind of new shopping experience or whatever else, you need to balance out between the risks and the advantages out of it. And you also need to be accepting that you potentially on the way make mistakes, but then it's more important than ever that you are able to quickly fix any mistakes, and to adjust to anything what's happening in the market. Because as we are building all these new Cloud Native applications, and build up all these skill sets, one of the big scenarios is we are far more depending on individual building blocks. These building blocks come out of open source communities, which have a much different way. When we look back in software development, back then we had application servers from Oracle, Web Logic, whatsoever, they had a release cycles of every three to six months. As now we have to deal with open source, where sometimes release cycles are on a four week schedule, in between security patches. So you need to be much faster in adopting that, checking that, implementing that, getting things to work. So there is a security stretch from that perspective. There is a speech stretch on the other thing companies have to deal with, and on the other side it's always a measurement between the risk, and the security you can afford. Because reality is, you will not be 100% protected no matter what you do. So, you need to balance out what you as an organization can actually build on. But I think, coming back also to the point, it's on the bot level nowadays. It's like nearly every discussion we have with companies nowadays as they move into the Cloud, especially also here in Europe where for the last five years, it was always, it's like "It's data privacy." Data privacy is no longer, I mean, yes, for certain people, it's still the point, but for many more people it's like, "How protected is my data?" "What do we do in case of ransomware attack?" "What do we do in case of a denial of service?" All of these things become more vulnerable, where in the past you were discussing these things with a becking page, or, or like a stock exchange. They were, it's like, "What the hell is going to happen if we have a denial of service?" Now all of the sudden, this now affects nearly everyone in their storefronts and everything else, because everything is depending on it. >> Yeah, I think you're right on. You think about how cultural change occurs, it's bottom ups or, bottom up, top down or middle out. And what, what's happened with security is the people in the security team cared about it, they were the, everybody said, "Oh, it's their problem." And then it just did an end run to the board, kind of mid, early last decade. And then the board sort of pushed that down. And the line of business is realizing, "Holy cow. My business, my EBIT can be dramatically affected by this, so I care." Now it's this whole house, cultural team sport. I know it's sort of a, a cliche, but it, it's true. Everybody actually is beginning to care about security because the risks are now so high, and it's going to affect not only the bottom line of the company, the bottom line of the business, their job, it's, it's, it's virtually everywhere. It's a huge cultural shift that we're seeing. >> And that's a big challenge for organizations in any industry. And Yves, you talked about ransomware service. Every industry across the globe is vulnerable to this. But how can, maybe John, we'll start with you. How can Cloud Native Security help organizations if they're able to embrace it, operationally, culturally, dial down some of the vulnerabilities that just seem to keep growing? >> Well, I mean that's the big question. The breaches are, are critical. The governances also could be a way that anchors down growth. So I think the balance between the governance compliance piece of it is key, but making the developers faster and more productive is the key to me. And I think having the security paradigm where they're not blockers, as Dave said, is critical. So I love the whole shift left, but now that we have more data focused initiatives around how that, you can use data to understand the security issues, I think data and security are together, and I think there's a going to be a data operating system model emerging, where data and security will be almost one thing. And that will be set up by the security teams, and the data teams together. And that will feed guardrails into the developer environment. So the developer should feel no pain at all in doing this. So I think the best practice will end up being what we're seeing with supply chain, security, with making sure code's verified. And you're going to see the container, security side completely address has been, and KubeCon, we just, I asked Scott Johnson, the CEO of Docker, and I asked him directly, "Are you guys all tight on container security?" He said, yes, but other people are suggesting that's not true. There's a lot of issues with the container security. So, there's all kinds of areas where there's holes. So Cloud Native is cool on one hand, and very relevant, but if it's not shored up, it's going to be a problem. But I, so I think that's where the action will be, at the developer pipeline, in the containers, and the data. So, that will be very relevant, and if companies nail that, they'll be faster, they'll have better apps, and that'll be the differentiator. And again, if they don't on this next wave, they're going to be driftwood. >> Dave, how do they prevent becoming driftwood? >> Well, I think Cloud has had a huge impact. And a Cloud's by no means a panacea, but let's face it, it's dramatically improved a lot of companies security posture. Now there's still that shared responsibility. Even though an S3 bucket is encrypted, it's still your responsibility to make sure that it doesn't get decrypted by somebody who has access to it. So there are things like that, but to Yve's earlier point, that can be, that's done through software now, it's done through best practices. Those best practices can be shared. So the way you, you don't become driftwood, is you start to, you step back, rethink that security architecture as we were talking about earlier, take advantage of the Cloud, take advantage of Cloud Native, and all the, the rapid pace of innovation that's occurring there, and you don't use, it's called before, The audit is the last line of defense. That's no longer a check box item. "Oh yeah, we're in compliance." It's, this is a business imperative, and because we're going to reduce our expected loss and reduce our business risk. That's part of the business case today. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge, critically important part of the business case. Yves, question for you. If you're in an elevator with a CEO, a CFO, and a CISO, and they're talking about security and Cloud Native Security, what's your value proposition to them on a, on a say a 32nd elevator ride? >> Difficult story. I think at the moment, the most important part is, we need to get people to work together, and we need to train people to work more much better together. I think that's the overall most important part for all of these solutions, because in the end, security is always a person issue. If, we can have the best tools in the industry, as long as we don't get all of these teams to work together, then we have a problem. If the security team is always seen as the end of the solution to fix everything, that's not going to work because they always are the bad guys in the game. And so we need to bring the teams together. And once we have the teams work together, I think we have a far better track on, on maintaining security. >> John and Dave, I want to get your perspectives on what Yves just said. In all the experience that the two of you have as industry analysts here on "theCUBE," Wikibon, Siliconangle Media. How do you advise organizations to get those teams together? As Eve said, that alignment is critical, but John, we'll start with you, then Dave go to you. What's your advice for organizations that need to align those teams and really don't have a lot of time to wait to do it? >> (chuckling) That's a great question. I think, I think that's everyone pays hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars to get that advice from these consultants, organizations out there doing the transformations. But I think it comes down to personnel and commitment. I think if there's a C-level commitment to the effort, you'll see the institutional structure change. So you can see really getting behind it with their, with their wallet and their, and their support of either getting more personnel to support and assist, or manage services, or giving the power to the teams to execute and doing it in a way that, that's, that's well known and best practices. Start small, build out the pilots, build the platform, and then start getting it right. And I think that's the key. Not the magic wand, the old model of rolling out stuff in, in six month cycles. It's really, get the proof points, double down and change the culture, but also execute and have real metrics. And changing the architecture, like having more penetration tests as a service. Doing pen tests is like a joke now. So that doesn't make any sense. You got to have that built in almost every day, and every minute. So, these kinds of new techniques have to be implemented and have to be tried. So that's why these communities are growing. That's why I like what open source has been doing, and I like the open source as the place to have these conversations, because that's where the action will be for new stuff. And I think people will implement open source like they did before, but with different ways, better testing, better supply chain on the software side, verifying code. So, I see open source actually getting a tailwind from this, not a headwind. So, I'm bullish on the open source piece here on, on all levels, machine learning- >> Lisa, my answer is intramural sports. And it's 'cause I think it's cultural. And what I mean by that, is you take your your best and brightest security, and this is what frankly, a lot of CISOs do, an examples is Lena Smart, MongoDB. Take your best and brightest security pros, make them captains of the intramural teams, and pair them up with pods of individuals across the organization, which is most people who don't know anything about security, and put them together, so that they can, they, so that the folks that understand security can, can realize how little people know, what, what, what, how, what the worst practices that are out there in the reverse, how they can cross pollinate. And they do that on a regular basis, I know at Mongo and other companies. And that kind of cultural assimilation is a starting point for how you get security awareness up to your question around making it a team sport. >> Absolutely critical. Yves, I want to kind of wrap things with you. We've got a couple of minutes left. When you're really looking at the Cloud Native community, the growth of it, we talked about earlier in the program, Cloud Native Security Con being now extracted and elevated out of KubeCon, what are your thoughts on the groundswell that this community is generating around Cloud Native Security, the benefits that organizations will achieve from it? >> I think overall, when we have these securities conferences, or these security arms a bit spread out and separated out of the main conference, it helps to a certain degree, because especially in the security space, when you look at at other like black hat or white hat conferences and things like that in the past, although they were not focused on Cloud Native, a lot of these security folks didn't feel well taken care of in any of the other conferences because they were always these, it's like they are always blocking us, they're always making us problems, and all these kinds of things. Now that we really take the Cloud Native piece and the security piece together, or like AWS does it with re:Inforce, I think we will see more and more that people understand is that security is a permanent topic we need to cover, but we need to bring different people together, because security also has compliance and a lot of other components in there. So we will see at these conferences moving forward, also a different audience. It's not going to be only the Cloud Native developers. And if I see some of these security audiences, I can't really imagine them to really be at KubeCon because there is too much other things going on. And you couldn't really see much of that at re:Invent because re:Invent by itself has become a complete monster of a conference. It covers too many topics. And so having this very, very important security piece separated, also gives the opportunity, I think, that we can bring in the security people, but also have the type of board level discussions potentially, between the leaders of the industry, to also discuss on how we can evolve, how we can make things better, and how, how we can actually, yeah, evolve our industry for it. Because let's face it, that threat is not going to go away. It's, it's a business. And one of the last security conferences I was on, on the ransomware part, it was one of the topics someone said is like, "Look, currently on average, it takes a hacker group roughly around they said 15 to 20 K to break into a company, and they on average make 100K. It's a business, let's face it. And it's a business we don't like. And ethically, it's no discussion that this is not good, but that's something which is happening. People are making money with it. And as long as that's going to go on, and we have enough countries where these people can hide, it's going to stay and survive. And so, with that being said, it's important for us to really build an industry around this. But I also think it's good that we have separate conferences. In the past we had more the RSA conference, which tried to cover all of these areas. But that is not really fitting Cloud Native and everything else. So I think it's good that we have these new opportunities, the Cloud Native one, but also what AWS brings up for someone. >> Yves, you just nailed it. It just comes down to simple math. It's a fraction. Revenue over cost. And if you could increase the hacker's cost, increase the denominator, their ROI will go down. And that is the game. >> Great point, Dave. What I'm hearing guys, and we can talk about technology for days and days. I know all of you. But there's, there's a big component that, that the elevation of Cloud Native Security, on its own as standalone is critical, as is the people component. You guys all talked about that. We talked about the cultural change necessary for that. Hopefully what we're seeing with Cloud Native Security Con 23, this first event is going to give us more insight over the next couple of days, and the next months or so, as to how this elevation, and how the people can come together to really help organizations from a math perspective as, as Dave talked about, really dial down the risks there, understand more of the vulnerabilities so that ransomware as a service is not as lucrative as it is today. Guys, so much appreciate your time, really breaking down Cloud Native Security, the value in it from different perspectives, and what your thoughts are on where it's going. Thanks so much for your time. >> All right. Thanks. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Yves. >> All right. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. Thanks for watching. (rousing music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante, here in our Boston studio. We're connecting today with Palo Alto, with John Furrier and Lisa Martin. We're also live from the show floor in Seattle. But right now, I'm here with Andy Thurai who's from Constellation Research, friend of theCUBE, and we're going to discuss the intersection of AI and security, the potential of AI, the risks and the future. Andy, welcome, good to see you again. >> Good to be here again. >> Hey, so let's get into it, can you talk a little bit about, I know this is a passion of yours, the ethical considerations surrounding AI. I mean, it's front and center in the news, and you've got accountability, privacy, security, biases. Should we be worried about AI from a security perspective? >> Absolutely, man, you should be worried. See the problem is, people don't realize this, right? I mean, the ChatGPT being a new shiny object, it's all the craze that's about. But the problem is, most of the content that's produced either by ChatGPT or even by others, it's an access, no warranties, no accountability, no whatsoever. Particularly, if it is content, it's okay. But if it is something like a code that you use for example, one of their site projects that GitHub's co-pilot, which is actually, open AI + Microsoft + GitHub's combo, they allow you to produce code, AI writes code basically, right? But when you write code, problem with that is, it's not exactly stolen, but the models are created by using the GitHub code. Actually, they're getting sued for that, saying that, "You can't use our code". Actually there's a guy, Tim Davidson, I think he's named the professor, he actually demonstrated how AI produces exact copy of the code that he has written. So right now, it's a lot of security, accountability, privacy issues. Use it either to train or to learn. But in my view, it's not ready for enterprise grade yet. >> So, Brian Behlendorf today in his keynotes said he's really worried about ChatGPT being used to automate spearfishing. So I'm like, okay, so let's unpack that a little bit. Is the concern there that it just, the ChatGPT writes such compelling phishing content, it's going to increase the probability of somebody clicking on it, or are there other dimensions? >> It could, it's not necessarily just ChatGPT for that matter, right? AI can, actually, the hackers are using it to an extent already, can use to individualize content. For example, one of the things that you are able to easily identify when you're looking at the emails that are coming in, the phishing attack is, you look at some of the key elements in it, whether it's a human or even if it's an automated AI based system. They look at certain things and they say, "Okay, this is phishing". But if you were to read an email that looks exact copy of what I would've sent to you saying that, "Hey Dave, are you on for tomorrow? Or click on this link to do whatever. It could individualize the message. That's where the volume at scale to individual to masses, that can be done using AI, which is what scares me. >> Is there a flip side to AI? How is it being utilized to help cybersecurity? And maybe you could talk about some of the more successful examples of AI in security. Like, are there use cases or are there companies out there, Andy, that you find, I know you're close to a lot of firms that are leading in this area. You and I have talked about CrowdStrike, I know Palo Alto Network, so is there a positive side to this story? >> Yeah, I mean, absolutely right. Those are some of the good companies you mentioned, CrowdStrike, Palo Alto, Darktrace is another one that I closely follow, which is a good company as well, that they're using AI for security purposes. So, here's the thing, right, when people say, when they're using malware detection systems, most of the malware detection systems that are in today's security and malware systems, use some sort of a signature and pattern scanning in the malware. You know how many identified malwares are there today in the repository, in the library? More than a billion, a billion. So, if you are to check for every malware in your repository, that's not going to work. The pattern based recognition is not going to work. So, you got to figure out a different way of identification of pattern of usage, not just a signature in a malware, right? Or there are other areas you could use, things like the usage patterns. For example, if Andy is coming in to work at a certain time, you could combine a facial recognition saying, that should he be in here at that time, and should he be doing things, what he is supposed to be doing. There are a lot of things you could do using that, right? And the AIOps use cases, which is one of my favorite areas that I work, do a lot of work, right? That it has use cases for detecting things that are anomaly, that are not supposed to be done in a way that's supposed to be, reducing the noise so it can escalate only the things what you're supposed to. So, AIOps is a great use case to use in security areas which they're not using it to an extent yet. Incident management is another area. >> So, in your malware example, you're saying, okay, known malware, pretty much anybody can deal with that now. That's sort of yesterday's problem. >> The unknown is the problem. >> It's the unknown malware really trying to understand the patterns, and the patterns are going to change. It's not like you're saying a common signature 'cause they're going to use AI to change things up at scale. >> So, here's the problem, right? The malware writers are also using AI now, right? So, they're not going to write the old malware, send it to you. They are actually creating malware on the fly. It is possible entirely in today's world that they can create a malware, drop in your systems and it'll it look for the, let me get that name right. It's called, what are we using here? It's called the TTPs, Tactics, Techniques and procedures. It'll look for that to figure out, okay, am I doing the right pattern? And then malware can sense it saying that, okay, that's the one they're detecting. I'm going to change it on the fly. So, AI can code itself on the fly, rather malware can code itself on the fly, which is going to be hard to detect. >> Well, and when you talk about TTP, when you talk to folks like Kevin Mandia of Mandiant, recently purchased by Google or other of those, the ones that have the big observation space, they'll talk about the most malicious hacks that they see, involve lateral movement. So, that's obviously something that people are looking for, AI's looking for that. And of course, the hackers are going to try to mask that lateral movement, living off the land and other things. How do you see AI impacting the future of cyber? We talked about the risks and the good. One of the things that Brian Behlendorf also mentioned is that, he pointed out that in the early days of the internet, the protocols had an inherent element of trust involved. So, things like SMTP, they didn't have security built in. So, they built up a lot of technical debt. Do you see AI being able to help with that? What steps do you see being taken to ensure that AI based systems are secure? >> So, the major difference between the older systems and the newer systems is the older systems, sadly even today, a lot of them are rules-based. If it's a rules-based systems, you are dead in the water and not able, right? So, the AI-based systems can somewhat learn from the patterns as I was talking about, for example... >> When you say rules-based systems, you mean here's the policy, here's the rule, if it's not followed but then you're saying, AI will blow that away, >> AI will blow that away, you don't have to necessarily codify things saying that, okay, if this, then do this. You don't have to necessarily do that. AI can somewhat to an extent self-learn saying that, okay, if that doesn't happen, if this is not a pattern that I know which is supposed to happen, who should I escalate this to? Who does this system belong to? And the other thing, the AIOps use case we talked about, right, the anomalies. When an anomaly happens, then the system can closely look at, saying that, okay, this is not normal behavior or usage. Is that because system's being overused or is it because somebody's trying to access something, could look at the anomaly detection, anomaly prevention or even prediction to an extent. And that's where AI could be very useful. >> So, how about the developer angle? 'Cause CNCF, the event in Seattle is all around developers, how can AI be integrated? We did a lot of talk at the conference about shift-left, we talked about shift-left and protect right. Meaning, protect the run time. So, both are important, so what steps should be taken to ensure that the AI systems are being developed in a secure and ethically sound way? What's the role of developers in that regard? >> How long do you got? (Both laughing) I think it could go for base on that. So, here's the problem, right? Lot of these companies are trying to see, I mean, you might have seen that in the news that Buzzfeed is trying to hire all of the writers to create the thing that ChatGPT is creating, a lot of enterprises... >> How, they're going to fire their writers? >> Yeah, they replace the writers. >> It's like automated automated vehicles and automated Uber drivers. >> So, the problem is a lot of enterprises still haven't done that, at least the ones I'm speaking to, are thinking about saying, "Hey, you know what, can I replace my developers because they are so expensive? Can I replace them with AI generated code?" There are a few issues with that. One, AI generated code is based on some sort of a snippet of a code that has been already available. So, you get into copyright issues, that's issue number one, right? Issue number two, if AI creates code and if something were to go wrong, who's responsible for that? There's no accountability right now. Or you as a company that's creating a system that's responsible, or is it ChatGPT, Microsoft is responsible. >> Or is the developer? >> Or the developer. >> The individual developer might be. So, they're going to be cautious about that liability. >> Well, so one of the areas where I'm seeing a lot of enterprises using this is they are using it to teach developers to learn things. You know what, if you're to code, this is a good way to code. That area, it's okay because you are just teaching them. But if you are to put an actual production code, this is what I advise companies, look, if somebody's using even to create a code, whether with or without your permission, make sure that once the code is committed, you validate that the 100%, whether it's a code or a model, or even make sure that the data what you're feeding in it is completely out of bias or no bias, right? Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who, what, when did that, if you put out a service or a system out there, it is involving your company liability and system, and code in place. You're going to be screwed regardless of what, if something were to go wrong, you are the first person who's liable for it. >> Andy, when you think about the dangers of AI, and what keeps you up at night if you're a security professional AI and security professional. We talked about ChatGPT doing things, we don't even, the hackers are going to get creative. But what worries you the most when you think about this topic? >> A lot, a lot, right? Let's start off with an example, actually, I don't know if you had a chance to see that or not. The hackers used a bank of Hong Kong, used a defect mechanism to fool Bank of Hong Kong to transfer $35 million to a fake account, the money is gone, right? And the problem that is, what they did was, they interacted with a manager and they learned this executive who can control a big account and cloned his voice, and clone his patterns on how he calls and what he talks and the whole name he has, after learning that, they call the branch manager or bank manager and say, "Hey, you know what, hey, move this much money to whatever." So, that's one way of kind of phishing, kind of deep fake that can come. So, that's just one example. Imagine whether business is conducted by just using voice or phone calls itself. That's an area of concern if you were to do that. And imagine this became an uproar a few years back when deepfakes put out the video of Tom Cruise and others we talked about in the past, right? And Tom Cruise looked at the video, he said that he couldn't distinguish that he didn't do it. It is so close, that close, right? And they are doing things like they're using gems... >> Awesome Instagram account by the way, the guy's hilarious, right? >> So, they they're using a lot of this fake videos and fake stuff. As long as it's only for entertainment purposes, good. But imagine doing... >> That's right there but... >> But during the election season when people were to put out saying that, okay, this current president or ex-president, he said what? And the masses believe right now whatever they're seeing in TV, that's unfortunate thing. I mean, there's no fact checking involved, and you could change governments and elections using that, which is scary shit, right? >> When you think about 2016, that was when we really first saw, the weaponization of social, the heavy use of social and then 2020 was like, wow. >> To the next level. >> It was crazy. The polarization, 2024, would deepfakes... >> Could be the next level, yeah. >> I mean, it's just going to escalate. What about public policy? I want to pick your brain on this because I I've seen situations where the EU, for example, is going to restrict the ability to ship certain code if it's involved with critical infrastructure. So, let's say, example, you're running a nuclear facility and you've got the code that protects that facility, and it can be useful against some other malware that's outside of that country, but you're restricted from sending that for whatever reason, data sovereignty. Is public policy, is it aligned with the objectives in this new world? Or, I mean, normally they have to catch up. Is that going to be a problem in your view? >> It is because, when it comes to laws it's always miles behind when a new innovation happens. It's not just for AI, right? I mean, the same thing happened with IOT. Same thing happened with whatever else new emerging tech you have. The laws have to understand if there's an issue and they have to see a continued pattern of misuse of the technology, then they'll come up with that. Use in ways they are ahead of things. So, they put a lot of restrictions in place and about what AI can or cannot do, US is way behind on that, right? But California has done some things, for example, if you are talking to a chat bot, then you have to basically disclose that to the customer, saying that you're talking to a chat bot, not to a human. And that's just a very basic rule that they have in place. I mean, there are times that when a decision is made by the, problem is, AI is a black box now. The decision making is also a black box now, and we don't tell people. And the problem is if you tell people, you'll get sued immediately because every single time, we talked about that last time, there are cases involving AI making decisions, it gets thrown out the window all the time. If you can't substantiate that. So, the bottom line is that, yes, AI can assist and help you in making decisions but just use that as a assistant mechanism. A human has to be always in all the loop, right? >> Will AI help with, in your view, with supply chain, the software supply chain security or is it, it's always a balance, right? I mean, I feel like the attackers are more advanced in some ways, it's like they're on offense, let's say, right? So, when you're calling the plays, you know where you're going, the defense has to respond to it. So in that sense, the hackers have an advantage. So, what's the balance with software supply chain? Are the hackers have the advantage because they can use AI to accelerate their penetration of the software supply chain? Or will AI in your view be a good defensive mechanism? >> It could be but the problem is, the velocity and veracity of things can be done using AI, whether it's fishing, or malware, or other security and the vulnerability scanning the whole nine yards. It's scary because the hackers have a full advantage right now. And actually, I think ChatGPT recently put out two things. One is, it's able to direct the code if it is generated by ChatGPT. So basically, if you're trying to fake because a lot of schools were complaining about it, that's why they came up with the mechanism. So, if you're trying to create a fake, there's a mechanism for them to identify. But that's a step behind still, right? And the hackers are using things to their advantage. Actually ChatGPT made a rule, if you go there and read the terms and conditions, it's basically honor rule suggesting, you can't use this for certain purposes, to create a model where it creates a security threat, as that people are going to listen. So, if there's a way or mechanism to restrict hackers from using these technologies, that would be great. But I don't see that happening. So, know that these guys have an advantage, know that they're using AI, and you have to do things to be prepared. One thing I was mentioning about is, if somebody writes a code, if somebody commits a code right now, the problem is with the agile methodologies. If somebody writes a code, if they commit a code, you assume that's right and legit, you immediately push it out into production because need for speed is there, right? But if you continue to do that with the AI produced code, you're screwed. >> So, bottom line is, AI's going to speed us up in a security context or is it going to slow us down? >> Well, in the current version, the AI systems are flawed because even the ChatGPT, if you look at the the large language models, you look at the core piece of data that's available in the world as of today and then train them using that model, using the data, right? But people are forgetting that's based on today's data. The data changes on a second basis or on a minute basis. So, if I want to do something based on tomorrow or a day after, you have to retrain the models. So, the data already have a stale. So, that in itself is stale and the cost for retraining is going to be a problem too. So overall, AI is a good first step. Use that with a caution, is what I want to say. The system is flawed now, if you use it as is, you'll be screwed, it's dangerous. >> Andy, you got to go, thanks so much for coming in, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome, so we're going wall to wall with our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante in the Boston Studio, John Furrier, Lisa Martin and Palo Alto. We're going to be live on the show floor as well, bringing in keynote speakers and others on the ground. Keep it right there for more coverage on theCUBE. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to AWS re:Invent, here in wonderful Las Vegas, Nevada. We're theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson. Joined with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Day four, you look great. Your voice has come back somehow. >> Yeah, a little bit. I don't know how. I took last night off. You guys, I know, were out partying all night, but - >> I don't know what you're talking about. (Dave laughing) >> Well, you were celebrating John's birthday. John Furrier's birthday today. >> Yes, happy birthday John! >> He's on his way to England. >> Yeah. >> To attend his nephew's wedding. Awesome family. And so good luck, John. I hope you feel better, he's got a little cold. >> I know, good luck to the newlyweds. I love this. I know we're both really excited for our next guest, so I'm going to bring out, Lena Smart from MongoDB. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you for having me. >> How's the show going for you? >> Good. It's been a long week. And I just, not much voice left, so. >> We'll be gentle on you. >> I'll give you what's left of it. >> All right, we'll take that. >> Okay. >> You had a fireside chat, at the show? >> Lena: I did. >> Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> So we were talking about the Rise, The developer is a platform. In this massive theater. I thought it would be like an intimate, you know, fireside chat. I keep believing them when they say to me come and do these talks, it'll be intimate. And you turn up and there's a stage and a theater and it's like, oh my god. But it was really interesting. It was well attended. Got some really good questions at the end as well. Lots of follow up, which was interesting. And it was really just about, you know, how we've brought together this developer platform that's got our integrated services. It's just what developers want, it gives them time to innovate and disrupt, rather than worry about the minutia of management. >> Savannah: Do the cool stuff. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so you know Lena, it's funny that you're saying that oh wow, the lights came on and it was this big thing. When when we were at re:Inforced, Lena was on stage and it was so funny, Lena, you were self deprecating like making jokes about the audience. >> Savannah: (indistinct) >> It was hilarious. And so, but it was really endearing to the audience and so we were like - >> Lena: It was terrifying. >> You got huge props for that, I'll tell you. >> Absolutely terrifying. Because they told me I wouldn't see anyone. Because we did the rehearsal the day before, and they were like, it's just going to be like - >> Sometimes it just looks like blackness out there. >> Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, they lied. I could see eyeballs. It was terrifying. >> Would you rather know that going in though? Or is it better to be, is ignorance bliss in that moment? >> Ignorance is bliss. >> Yeah, yeah yeah. >> Good call Savannah, right? Yeah, just go. >> The older I get, the more I'm just, I'm on the ignorance is bliss train. I just, I don't need to know anything that's going to hurt my soul. >> Exactly. >> One of the things that you mentioned, and this has actually been a really frequent theme here on the show this week, is you said that this has been a transformative year for developers. >> Lena: Yeah. >> What did you mean by that? >> So I think developers are starting to come to the fore, if you like, the fore. And I'm not in any way being deprecating about developers 'cause I love them. >> Savannah: I think everyone here does. >> I was married to one, I live with one now. It's like, they follow me everywhere. They don't. But, I think they, this is my opinion obviously but I think that we're seeing more and more the value that developers bring to the table. They're not just code geeks anymore. They're not just code monkeys, you know, churning out lines and lines of code. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had this week have been with developers. And that's why I'm so pleased that our developer data platform is going to give these folks back time, so that they can go and innovate. And do super interesting things and do the next big thing. It was interesting, I was talking to Mary, our comms person earlier and she had said that Dave I guess, my boss, was on your show - >> Dave: Yeah, he was over here last night. >> Yeah. And he was saying that two thirds of the companies that had been mentioned so far, within the whole gamut of this conference use MongoDB. And so take that, extrapolate that, of all the developers >> Wow. >> who are there. I know, isn't that awesome? >> That's awesome. Congrats on that, that's like - >> Did I hear that right now? >> I know, I just had that moment. >> I know she just told me, I'm like, really? That's - >> That's so cool. >> 'Cause the first thing I thought of was then, oh my god, how many developers are we reaching then? 'Cause they're the ones. I mean, it's kind of interesting. So my job has kind of grown from, over the years, being the security geek in the back room that nobody talks to, to avoiding me in the lift, to I've got a seat at the table now. We meet with the board. And I think that I can see that that's where the developer mindset is moving towards. It's like, give us the right tools and we'll change your world. >> And let the human capital go back to doing the fun stuff and not just the maintenance stuff. >> And, but then you say that, you can't have everything automated. I get that automation is also the buzzword of the week. And I get that, trust me. Someone has to write the code to do the automation. >> Savannah: Right. >> So, so yeah, definitely give these people back time, so that they can work on ML, AI, choose your buzzword. You know, by giving people things like queriable encryption for example, you're going to free up a whole bunch of head space. They don't have to worry about their data being, you know harvested from memory or harvested while at rest or in motion. And it's like, okay, I don't have to worry about that now, let me go do something fun. >> How about the role of the developer as it relates to SecOps, right? They're being asked to do a lot. You and I talked about this at re:Inforce. You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. Like a lot of companies I think are struggling with it. I mean, the other thing you said said to me is you don't have a lack of talent at Mongo, right? 'Cause you're Mongo. But a lot of companies do. But a lot of the developers, you know we were just talking about this earlier with Capgemini, the developer metrics or the application development team's metrics might not be aligned with the CSO's metrics. How, what are you seeing there? What, how do you deal with it within Mongo? What do you advise your customers? >> So in terms of internal, I work very closely with our development group. So I work with Tara Hernandez, who's our new VP of developer productivity. And she and her team are very much interested in making developers more productive. That's her job. And so we get together because sometimes security can definitely be seen as a blocker. You know, funnily enough, I actually had a Slack that I had to respond to three seconds before I come on here. And it was like, help, we need some help getting this application through procurement, because blah, blah, blah. And it's weird the kind of change, the shift in mindset. Whereas before they might have gone to procurement or HR or someone to ask for this. Now they're coming to the CSO. 'Cause they know if I say yes, it'll go through. >> Talk about social engineering. >> Exactly. >> You were talking about - >> But turn it around though. If I say no, you know, I don't like to say no. I prefer to be the CSO that says yes, but. And so that's what we've done. We've definitely got that culture of ask, we'll tell you the risks, and then you can go away and be innovative and do what you need to do. And we basically do the same with our customers. Here's what you can do. Our application is secure out of the box. Here's how we can help you make it even more, you know, streamlined or bespoke to what you need. >> So mobile was a big inflection point, you know, I dunno, it seems like forever ago. >> 2007. >> 2007. Yeah, iPhone came out in 2007. >> You remember your first iPhone? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Yeah? Same. >> Yeah. It was pretty awesome, actually. >> Yeah, I do too. >> Yeah, I was on the train to Boston going up to see some friends at MIT on the consortium that I worked with. And I had, it was the wee one, 'member? But you thought it was massive. >> Oh, it felt - >> It felt big. And I remember I was sitting on the train to Boston it was like the Estella and there was these people, these two women sitting beside me. And they were all like glam, like you and unlike me. >> Dave: That's awesome. >> And they, you could see them like nudging each other. And I'm being like, I'm just sitting like this. >> You're chilling. >> Like please look at my phone, come on just look at it. Ask me about it. And eventually I'm like - >> You're baiting them. >> nonchalantly laid it on the table. And you know, I'm like, and they're like, is that an iPhone? And I'm like, yeah, you want to see it? >> I thought you'd never ask. >> I know. And I really played with it. And I showed them all the cool stuff, and they're like, oh we're going to buy iPhones. And so I should have probably worked for Apple, but I didn't. >> I was going to say, where was your referral kickback on that? Especially - >> It was a little like Tesla, right? When you first, we first saw Tesla, it was Ray Wong, you know, Ray? From Pasadena? >> It really was a moment and going from the Blackberry keyboard to that - >> He's like want to see my car? And I'm like oh yeah sure, what's the big deal? >> Yeah, then you see it and you're like, ooh. >> Yeah, that really was such a pivotal moment. >> Anyway, so we lost a track, 2007. >> Yeah, what were we talking about? 2007 mobile. >> Mobile. >> Key inflection point, is where you got us here. Thank you. >> I gotchu Dave, I gotchu. >> Bring us back here. My mind needs help right now. Day four. Okay, so - >> We're all getting here on day four, we're - >> I'm socially engineering you to end this, so I can go to bed and die quietly. That's what me and Mary are, we're counting down the minutes. >> Holy. >> That's so sick. >> You're breaking my heart right now. I love it. I'm with you, sis, I'm with you. >> So I dunno where I was, really where I was going with this, but, okay, there's - >> 2007. Three things happened. >> Another inflection point. Okay yeah, tell us what happened. But no, tell us that, but then - >> AWS, clones, 2006. >> Well 2006, 2007. Right, okay. >> 2007, the iPhone, the world blew up. So you've already got this platform ready to take all this data. >> Dave: Right. >> You've got this little slab of gorgeousness called the iPhone, ready to give you all that data. And then MongoDB pops up, it's like, woo-hoo. But what we could offer was, I mean back then was awesome, but it was, we knew that we would have to iterate and grow and grow and grow. So that was kind of the three things that came together in 2007. >> Yeah, and then Cloud came in big time, and now you've got this platform. So what's the next inflection point do you think? >> Oh... >> Good question, Dave. >> Don't even ask me that. >> I mean, is it Edge? Is it IOT? Is there another disruptor out there? >> I think it's going to be artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Is it AI? >> I mean I don't know enough about it to talk about it, to any level, so don't ask me any questions about it. >> This is like one of those ignorance is bliss moments. It feels right. >> Yeah. >> Well, does it scare you, from a security perspective? Or? >> Great question, Dave. >> Yeah, it scares me more from a humanity standpoint. Like - >> More than social scared you? 'Cause social was so benign when it started. >> Oh it was - >> You're like, oh - I remember, >> It was like a yearbook. I was on the Estella and we were - >> Shout out to Amtrak there. >> I was with, we were starting basically a wikibond, it was an open source. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Kind of, you know, technology community. And we saw these and we were like enamored of Facebook. And there were these two young kids on the train, and we were at 'em, we were picking the brain. Do you like Facebook? "I love Facebook." They're like "oh, Facebook's unbelievable." Now, kids today, "I hate Facebook," right? So, but social at the beginning it was kind of, like I say, benign and now everybody's like - >> Savannah: We didn't know what we were getting into. >> Right. >> I know. >> Exactly. >> Can you imagine if you could have seen into the future 20 years ago? Well first of all, we'd have all bought Facebook and Apple stock. >> Savannah: Right. >> And Tesla stock. But apart from, but yeah apart from that. >> Okay, so what about Quantum? Does that scare you at all? >> I think the only thing that scares me about Quantum is we have all this security in place today. And I'm not an expert in Quantum, but we have all this security in place that's securing what we have today. And my worry is, in 10 years, is it still going to be secure? 'Cause we're still going to be using that data in some way, shape, or form. And my question is to the quantum geniuses out there, what do we do in 10 years like to retrofit the stuff? >> Dave: Like a Y2K moment? >> Kind of. Although I think Y2K is coming in 2038, isn't it? When the Linux date flips. I'll be off the grid by then, I'll be living in Scotland. >> Somebody else's problem. >> Somebody else's problem. I'll be with the sheep in Glasgow, in Scotland. >> Y2K was a boondoggle for tech, right? >> What a farce. I mean, that whole - >> I worked in the power industry in Y2K. That was a nightmare. >> Dave: Oh I bet. >> Savannah: Oh my God. >> Yeah, 'cause we just assumed that the world was going to stop and there been no power, and we had nuclear power plants. And it's like holy moly. Yeah. >> More than moly. >> I was going to say, you did a good job holding that other word in. >> I think I was going to, in case my mom hears this. >> I grew up near Diablo Canyon in, in California. So you were, I mean we were legitimately worried that that exactly was going to happen. And what about the waste? And yeah it was chaos. We've covered a lot. >> Well, what does worry you? Like, it is culture? Is it - >> Why are you trying to freak her out? >> No, no, because it's a CSO, trying to get inside the CSO's head. >> You don't think I have enough to worry about? You want to keep piling on? >> Well if it's not Quantum, you know? Maybe it's spiders or like - >> Oh but I like spiders, well spiders are okay. I don't like bridges, that's my biggest fear. Bridges. >> Seriously? >> And I had to drive over the Tappan Zee bridge, which is one of the longest, for 17 years, every day, twice. The last time I drove over it, I was crying my heart out, and happy as anything. >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I've never driven over it since. Stay out of where? >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I'm staying out of anywhere that's got lots of water. 'Cause it'll have bridges. >> Savannah: Well it's good we're here in the desert. >> Exactly. So what scares me? Bridges, there you go. >> Yeah, right. What? >> Well wait a minute. So if I'm bridging technology, is that the scary stuff? >> Oh God, that was not - >> Was it really bad? >> It was really bad. >> Wow. Wow, the puns. >> There's a lot of seems in those bridges. >> It is lit on theCUBE A floor, we are all struggling. I'm curious because I've seen, your team is all over the place here on the show, of course. Your booth has been packed the whole time. >> Lena: Yes. >> The fingerprint. Talk to me about your shirt. >> So, this was designed by my team in house. It is the most wanted swag in the company, because only my security people wear it. So, we make it like, yeah, you could maybe have one, if this turns out well. >> I feel like we're on the right track. >> Dave: If it turns out well. >> Yeah, I just love it. It's so, it's just brilliant. I mean, it's the leaf, it's a fingerprint. It's just brilliant. >> That's why I wanted to call it out. You know, you see a lot of shirts, a lot of swag shirts. Some are really unfortunately sad, or not funny, >> They are. >> or they're just trying too hard. Now there's like, with this one, I thought oh I bet that's clever. >> Lena: It is very cool. Yes, I love it. >> I saw a good one yesterday. >> Yeah? >> We fix shit, 'member? >> Oh yeah, yeah. >> That was pretty good. >> I like when they're >> That's a pretty good one. >> just straightforward, like that, yeah yeah. >> But the only thing with this is when you're say in front of a green screen, you look as though you've got no tummy. >> A portal through your body. >> And so, when we did our first - >> That's a really good point, actually. >> Yeah, it's like the black hole to nothingless. And I'm like wow, that's my soul. >> I was just going to say, I don't want to see my soul like that. I don't want to know. >> But we had to do like, it was just when the pandemic first started, so we had to do our big presentation live announcement from home. And so they shipped us all this camera equipment for home and thank God my partner knows how that works, so he set it all up. And then he had me test with a green screen, and he's like, you have no tummy. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? He's like, come and see. It's like this, I dunno what it was. So I had to actually go upstairs and felt tip with a magic marker and make it black. >> Wow. >> So that was why I did for two hours on a Friday, yeah. >> Couldn't think of another alternative, huh? >> Well no, 'cause I'm myopic when it comes to marketing and I knew I had to keep the tshirt on, and I just did that. >> Yeah. >> In hindsight, yes I could have worn an "I Fix Shit" tshirt, but I don't think my husband would've been very happy. I secure shit? >> There you go, yeah. >> There you go. >> Over to you, Savannah. >> I was going to say, I got acquainted, I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to say it 'cause we're here right now. I got acquainted with theCUBE, wearing a shirt that said "Unfuck Kubernetes," 'cause it was a marketing campaign that I was running for one of my clients at Kim Con last year. >> That's so good. >> Yeah, so - >> Oh my God. I'll give you one of these if you get me one of those. >> I can, we can do a swapskee. We can absolutely. >> We need a few edits on this film, on the file. >> Lena: Okay, this is nothing - >> We're fallin' off the wheel. Okay, on that note, I'm going to bring us to our challenge that we discussed, before we got started on this really diverse discussion that we have had in the last 15 minutes. We've covered everything from felt tip markers to nuclear power plants. >> To the darkness of my soul. >> To the darkness of all of our souls. >> All of our souls, yes. >> Which is perhaps a little too accurate, especially at this stage in the conference. You've obviously seen a lot Lena, and you've been rockin' it, I know John was in your suite up here, at at at the Venetian. What's your 30 second hot take? Most important story, coming out of the show or for you all at Mongo this year? >> Genuinely, it was when I learned that two-thirds of the customers that had been mentioned, here, are MongoDB customers. And that just exploded in my head. 'Cause now I'm thinking of all the numbers and the metrics and how we can use that. And I just think it's amazing, so. >> Yeah, congratulations on that. That's awesome. >> Yeah, I thought it was amazing. >> And it makes sense actually, 'cause Mongo so easy to use. We were talking about Tengen. >> We knew you when, I feel that's our like, we - >> Yeah, but it's true. And so, Mongo was just really easy to use. And people are like, ah, it doesn't scale. It's like, turns out it actually does scale. >> Lena: Turns out, it scales pretty well. >> Well Lena, without question, this is my favorite conversation of the show so far. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Dave: Great to see you. >> It's always a pleasure. >> Dave: Thanks Lena. >> Thank you. >> And thank you all, tuning in live, for tolerating wherever we take these conversations. >> Dave: Whatever that was. >> I bet you weren't ready for this one, folks. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas, Nevada. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're washing theCUBE, the leader for high tech coverage.