(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Its first inaugural event. It's theCUBE's coverage. We were there at the first event for a KubeCon before CNCF kind of took it over. It was in Seattle. And so in Seattle this week is Cloud Native SecurityCon. Of course, theCUBE is there covering via our Palo Alto Studios and our experts around the world who are bringing in Bassam Tabbara who's the CEO and founder of upbound.io. That's the URL, but Upbound is the company. The creators of Crossplane. Really kind of looking at the Crossplane, across the abstraction layer, across clouds. A big part of, as we call supercloud trend. Bassam, great to see you. You've been legend in the open source community. Great to have you on. >> Thanks, John. Always good to be on theCUBE. >> I really wanted to bring you in 'cause I want to get your perspective. You've seen the movie, you've seen open source software grow, it continues to grow. Now you're starting to see the Linux Foundation, which has CNCF really expanding their realm. They got the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon, which is Kubernetes event. That's gotten so massive and so successful. We've been to every single one as you know. I've seen you there and all of them as well. So that's going great. Now they got this new event that's spins out dedicated to security. Everybody wants to know why the new event? What's the focus? Is it needed? What will they do? What's different from KubeCon? Where do I play? And so there's a little bit of a question mark in the ecosystem around this event. And so we've been reporting on it. Looking good so far. People are buzzing, again, they're keeping it small. So that kind of managing expectations like any good event would do. But I think it's been successful, which I wanted like to get your take on how you see it. Is this good? Are you indifferent? Are you excited by this? What's your take? >> I mean, look, it's super exciting to see all the momentum around cloud native. Obviously there are different dimensions of cloud native securities, an important piece. Networking, storage, compute, like all those things I think tie back together and in some ways you can look at this event as a focused event on the security aspect as it relates to cloud native. And there are lots of vendors in this space. There's lots of interesting projects in the space, but the unifying theme is that they come together and probably around the Kubernetes API and the momentum around cloud native and with Kubernetes at the center of it. >> On the focus on Kubernetes, it seems this event is kind of classic security where you want to have deep dives. Again, I call it the event operating system 'cause you decouple, make things highly cohesive, and you link them together. I don't see a problem with it. I kind of like this. I gave it good reviews if they stay focused because security is super critical. There was references to bind and DNS. There's a lot of things in the infrastructure plumbing that need to be looked at or managed or figured out or just refactored for modernization needs. And I know you've done a lot with storage, for instance, storage, networking, kernel. There's a lot of things in the old tech or tech in the cloud that needs to be kind, I won't say rebooted, but maybe reset or jump. Do you see it that way? Are there things that need to get done or is it just that there's so much complexity in the different cloud cluster code thing going on? >> It's obviously security is a very, very big space and there are so many different aspects of it that people you can go into. I think the thing that's interesting around the cloud native community is that there is a unifying theme. Like forget the word cloud native for a second, but the unifying theme is that people are building around what looks like a standardized play around Kubernetes and the Kubernetes API. And as a result you can recast a lot of the technologies that we are used to in the past in a traditional security sense. You can recast them on top of this new standardized approach or on Kubernetes, whether it's policy or protecting a supply chain or scanning, or like a lot of the access control authorization, et cetera. All of those things can be either revived to apply to this cloud native play and the Kubernetes play or creating new opportunities for companies to actually build new and interesting projects and companies around a standardized play. >> Do you think this also will help the KubeCon be more focused around the developer areas there and just touching on security versus figuring out how to take something so important in KubeCon, which the stakeholders in KubeCon have have grown so big, I can see security sucking a lot of oxygen out of the room there. So here you move it over, you keep it over here. Will anything change on the KubeCon site? We'll be there in in Amsterdam in April. What do you think the impact will be? Good? Is it good for the community? Just good swim lanes? What's your take? >> Yeah, I still think KubeCon will be an umbrella event for the whole cloud native community. I suspect that you'll see some of the same vendors and projects and everything else represented in KubeCon. The way I think about all the branched cloud native events are essentially a way to have a more focused discussion, get people together to talk about security topics or networking topics or things that are more focused way. But I don't think it changes the the effect of KubeCon being the umbrella around all of it. So I think you'll see the same presence and maybe larger presence going forward at Amsterdam. We're planning to be there obviously and I'm excited to be there and I think it'll be a big event and having a smaller event is not going to diminish the effect of KubeCon. >> And if you look at the developer community they've all been online for a long time, from IRC chat to now Slack and now new technologies and stuff like Discord out there. The event world has changed post-pandemic. So it makes sense. And we're seeing this with all vendors, by the way, and projects. The digital community angle is huge because if you have a big tent event like KubeCon you can make that a rallying moment in the industry and then have similar smaller events that are highly focused that build off that that are just connective tissue or subnets, if you will, or communities targeted for really deeper conversations. And they could be smaller events. They don't have to be monster events, but they're connected and traverse into the main event. This might be the event format for the future for all companies, whether it's AWS or a company that has a community where you create this network effect, if you will, around the people. >> That's right. And if you look at things like AWS re:Invent, et cetera, I mean, that's a massive events. And in some ways it, if it was a set of smaller sub events, maybe it actually will flourish more. I don't know, I'm not sure. >> They just killed the San Francisco event. >> That's right. >> But they have re:Inforce, all right, so they just established that their big events are re:Invent and re:Inforce as their big. >> Oh, I didn't hear about re:Inforce. That's news to me. >> re:Inforce is their third event. So they're doing something similar as CloudNativeCon, which is you have to have an event and then they're going to create a lot of sub events underneath. So I think they are trying to do that. Very interesting. >> Very interesting for sure. >> So let's talk about what you guys are up to. I know from your standpoint, you had a lot of security conversations. How is Crossplane doing? Obviously, you saw our Supercloud coverage. You guys fit right into that model where clients, customers, enterprises are going to want to have multiple cloud operating environments for whatever the use case, whether you're using ChatGPT, you got to get an Azure instance up and running for that. Now with APIs, we're hearing a lot of developers doing that. So you're going to start to see this cross cloud as VMware calls, what we call it supercloud. There's more need for Crossplane like thinking. What's the update? >> For sure, and we see this very clearly as well. So the fact that there is a standardization layer, there is a layer that lets you converge the different vendors that you have, the different clouds that you have, the different hype models that you have, whether it's hybrid or private, public, et cetera. The unifying theme is that you're literally bringing all those things under one control plane that enables you to actually centralize and standardize on security, access control, helps you standardize on cost control, quota policy, as well as create a self-service experience for your developers. And so from a security standpoint, the beauty of this is like, you could use really popular projects like open policy agent or Kyverno or others if you want to do policy and do so uniformly across your entire stack, your entire footprint of tooling, vendors, services and across deployment models. Those things are possible because you're standardizing and consolidating on a control plane on top of all. And that's the thing that gets our customers excited. That we're seeing in the community that they could actually now normalize standardize on small number of projects and tools to manage everything. >> We were talking about that in our summary of the keynote yesterday. Dave Vellante and I were talking about the idea of clients want to have a redo of their security. They've been, just the tooling has been building up. They got zero trust in place, maybe with some big vendor, but now got the cloud native opportunity to refactor and reset and reinvent their security paradigm. And so that's the positive thing we're hearing. Now we're seeing enterprises want this cross cloud capabilities or Crossplane like thinking that you guys are talking about. What are your customers telling you? Can you share from an enterprise perspective where they're at in this journey? Because part of the security problems that we've been reporting on has been because clients are moving from IT to cloud native and not everyone's moved over yet. So they're highly vulnerable to ransomware and all kinds of other crap. So another attacks, so they're wide open, But people who are moving into cloud native, are they stepping up their game on this Crossplane opportunity? Where are they at? Can you share data on that? >> Yeah, we're grateful to be talking to a lot of customers these days. And the interesting thing is even if you talked about large financial institutions, banks, et cetera, the common theme that we hear is that they bought tools for each of the different departments and however they're organized. Sometimes you see the folks that are running databases, networking, being separated from say, the computer app developers or they're all these different departments within an organization. And for each one of those, they've made localized decisions for tooling and services that they bought. What we're seeing now consistently is that they're all together, getting together, and trying to figure out how to standardize on a smaller one set of tooling and services that goes across all the different departments and all different aspects of the business that they're running. And this is where this discussion gets a lot very interesting. If instead of buying a different policy tool for each department, or once that fits it you could actually standardize on policy or the entire footprint of services that they're managing. And you get that by standardizing on a control plane or standardizing on effectively one point of control for everything that they're doing. And that theme is like literally, it gets all our customers excited. This is why they're engaging in all of this. It's almost the holy grail. The thing that I've been trying to do for a long time. >> I know. >> And it's finally happening. >> I know you and I have talked about this many times, but I got to ask you the one thing that jumps into everybody's head when you hear control plane is lock-in. So how do you discuss that lock-in, perception from the reality of the situation? How do you unpack that for the customer? 'Cause they want choice at the end of the day. There's the preferred vendors for sure on the hyperscale side and app side and open source, but what's the lock-in? What does the lock-in conversation look like? Or do they even have that conversation? >> Yeah. To be honest, I mean, so their lock-in could be a two dimensions here. Most of our customers and people are using Crossplane or using app on product around it. Most of our do, concentrated in, say a one cloud vendor and have others. So I don't think this is necessarily about multicloud per se or being locked into one vendor. But they do manage many different services and they have legacy tooling and they have different systems that they bought at different stages and they want to bring them all together. And by bringing them all together that helps them make choices about consulting or even replacing some of them. But right now everything is siloed, everything is separate, both organizationally as well as the code bases or investments and tooling or contracts. Everything is just completely separated and it requires humans to put them together. And organizations actually try to gather around and put them together. I don't know if lock-in is the driving goal for this, but it is standardization consolidation. That's the driving initiative. >> And so unification and building is the big driver. They're building out >> Correct, and you can ask why are they doing that? What does standardization help with? It helps them to become more productive. They can move faster, they can innovate faster. Not as a ton of, like literally revenue written all over. So it's super important to them that they achieved this, increase their pace of innovation around this and they do that by standardizing. >> The great point in all this and your success at Upbound and now CNCF success with KubeCon + CloudNativeCon and now with the inaugural event of Cloud Native SecurityCon is that the customers are involved, a lot of end users are involved. There's a big driver not only from the industry and the developers and getting architecture right and having choice. The customers want this to happen. They're leaning in, they're part of it. So that's a big driver. Where does this go? If you had to throw a dart at the board five years from now Cloud Native SecurityCon, what does it look like if you had to predict the trajectory of this event and community? >> Yeah, I mean, look, I think the trajectory one is that we have what looks like a standardization layer emerging that is all encompassing. And as a result, there is a ton of opportunity for vendors, projects, communities to build around within on top of this layer. And essentially create, I think you talked about an operating system earlier and decentralized aspect of this, but it's an opportunity to actually, what it looks like for the first time we have a convergence happening industry-wide and through open source and open source foundations. And I think that means that there'll be new opportunity and lots of new projects and things that are created in the space. And it also means that if you don't attach this space, you'll likely be left out. >> Awesome. Bassam, great to have you on, great expert commentary, obviously multi CUBE alumni and supporter of theCUBE and as you become successful we really appreciate your support for helping us get the content out there. And best of luck to your team and thanks for weighing in on Cloud Native SecurityCon. >> Awesome. It's always good talking to you, John. Thank you. >> Great stuff. This is more CUBE coverage from Palo Alto, getting folks on the ground on location, getting us the stories in Seattle. Of course, Cloud Native SecurityCon, the inaugural event, which looks like will be the beginning of a series of multi-year journey for the CNCF, focusing on security. Of course, theCUBE's here to cover it, every angle of it, and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to the Cube. I am Savannah Peterson here, coming to you from Detroit, Michigan. We're at Cuban Day three. Such a series of exciting interviews. We've done over 30, but this conversation is gonna be extra special, don't you think, John? >>Yeah, this is gonna be a good one. Griffon Labs is here with us. We're getting the conversation of what's going on in the industry management, watching the Kubernetes clusters. This is large scale conversations this week. It's gonna be a good one. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'm very excited. He's also got a fantastic Twitter handle, twitchy. H Please welcome Richie Hartman, who is the director of community here at Griffon. Richie, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks >>For having me. >>How's the show been for you? >>Busy. I, I mean, I, I, >>In >>A word, I have a ton of talks at at like maintain a thing and like the covering board searches at the TLC panel. I run forme day. So it's, it's been busy. It, yeah. Monday, I didn't have to run anything. That was quite nice. But there >>You, you have your hands in a lot. I'm not even gonna cover it. Looking at your bio, there's, there's so many different things that you're working on. I know that Grafana specifically had some announcements this week. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. We had quite a few, like the, the two largest ones is a, we now have a field Kubernetes integration on Grafana Cloud. So our, our approach is generally extremely open source first. So we try to push stuff into the exporters, like into the open source exporters, into mixes into things which are out there as open source for anyone to use. But that's little bit like a tool set, not a ready made solution. So when we talk integrations, we actually talk about things where you get this like one click experience, You log into your Grafana cloud, you click, I have a Kubernetes, which probably most of us have, and things just work like you in just the data. You have to write dashboards, you have to write alerts, you have to write everything to just get started with extremely opinionated dashboards, SLOs, alerts, again, all those things made by experts, so anyone can use them. And you don't have to reinvent the view for every single user. So that's the one. The other is, >>It's a big deal. >>Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. It is. It, we, we has, its heavily in integrations course. While, I mean, I don't have to convince anyone that perme is a DD factor standard in everything. Cloudnative. But again, it's, it's, it's sometimes a little bit hard to handle or a little bit not easy to get into. So, so smoothing this, this, this path onto onboarding yourself onto this stack and onto those types of solutions. Yes. Is what a lot of people need. Course, if you, if you look at the statistics from coupon, and we just heard this in the governing board session yesterday. Yeah. Like 60% of the people here are first time attendees. So there's a lot of people who just come into this thing and who need, like, this is your path. This is where you should be going. Or at least if you want to go, go there. This is how to get there. >>Here's your runway for takeoff. Yes. Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And I love that you, you had those numbers. I was curious. I, I had seen on Twitter, speaking of Twitter, I had seen, I had seen that, that there were a lot of people here coming for the first time. You're a community guy. Are we at an inflection point where this community is about to continue to scale? >>That's a very good question. Which I can't really answer. So I mean, >>Obviously I bet you're gonna try. >>I covid changed a few things. Yeah. Probably most people, >>A couple things. I mean, you know, casually, it's like such a gentle way of putting that, that was >>Beautiful. I'm gonna say yes, just to explode. All these new ERs are gonna learn Prometheus. They're gonna roll in with a open, open metrics, open telemetry. I love it, >>You know, But, but at the same time, like Cuban is, is ramping back up. But if you look at the, if you look at the registration numbers between Valencia Andro, it was more or less the same. Interesting. Which, so it didn't go onto this, onto this flu trajectory, which it was on like, up to, up to 2019. I expect this to take up again. But also with the economic situation, everything, I, I don't think >>It's, I think the jury's still out on hybrid. I think there's a lot, lot more hybrid. Let's see how the projects are gonna go. That's what I think it's gonna be the tell sign. How many people are in participating? How are the project's advancing? Some of the momentum, >>I mean, from the project level, Most of this is online anyway. Of course. That's how open source, right. I've been working for >>Ages. That's >>Cause you don't have any trouble budget or, or any office or, It's >>Always been that way. >>Yeah, precisely. So the projects are arguably spearheading this, this development and the, the online numbers. I I, I have some numbers in my head, but I'm, I'm not a hundred percent certain to, but they're higher for this time in Detroit than in volunteer as far somewhere. Cool. So that is growing and it's grown in parallel, which also is great. Cause it's much more accessible, much more inclusive. You don't have to have a budget of at least, let's say, I don't know, two to five k to, to fly over the pond and, and attend this thing. You can just do it from your home. So that is, that's a lot more inclusive. And I expect this to, to basically be a second more or less orthogonal growth, growth path. But the best thing about coupon is the hallway track. I'm just meeting people, talking to people and that kind of thing is not really possible with, >>It's, it's great to see people >>In person. No, and it makes such a difference. I mean, yeah. Even and interviewing people in person too. I mean, it does a, it's, it's, and, and this, this whole, I mean cncf, this whole community, every company here is community first. It's how these projects come to be. I think it's awesome. I feel like you got something you're saying to say, Johnny. >>Yeah. And I love some of the advancements. Rich Richie, we talked last time about, you know, open telemetry, open metrics. You're involved in dashboards. Yeah. One of the themes here is ease of use, simplicity, developer productivity. Where do you see the ease of use going from a project standpoint? For me, as you mentions everywhere, it's pretty much, it is, it's almost all corners of the world. Yep. And new people coming in. How, how are you making it easier? What's going on? Give us the update on that. >>So we also, funnily enough at precisely this topic in the TC panel just a few hours ago, about ease of use and about how to, how to make things easier to, to handle how developers currently, like if they just want to get into the cloud native seen, they have like, like we, we did some neck and math, like maybe 10 tools at least, which you have to be somewhat proficient in to just get started, which is honestly horrendous. Yeah. Course. Like with a server, I just had my survey install my thing and it runs, maybe I need a database, but that's roughly it. And this needs to change again. Like it's, it's nice that everything is, is un unraveled. And you have, you, you, you, you don't have those service boundaries which you had before. You can do all the horizontal scaling, you can do all the automatic scaling, all those things that they're super nice. But at the same time, this complexity, which used to be nicely compartmentalized, was deliberately broken up. And so it's becoming a lot harder to, to, like, we, we need to find new ways to compartmentalize this complexity back to, to human understandable levels again, in particular, as we keep onboarding new and new and new, new people, of course it's just not good use of anyone's time to, to just like learn the basics again and again and again. This is something which should be just compartmentalized and automated away. We're >>The three, We were talking to Matt Klein earlier and he was talking about as projects become mature and all over the place and have reach and and usage, you gotta work on the boring stuff. Yes. And when it's boring, that means you have success. Yes. But then you gotta work on the plumbing. What are some of the things that you guys are working on? Because people are relying on the product. >>Oh yeah. So for with my premises head on, the highlight feature is exponential or native or spars. Histograms. There's like three different names for one single concept. If you know Prometheus, you ha you currently have hard bucket boundaries where I say my latency is lower equal two seconds, one second, a hundred milliseconds, what have you. And I can put stuff into those histogram buckets accordingly to those predefined levels, which is extremely efficient, but like on the, on the code level. But it's not very nice for the humans course you need to understand your system before you're able to, to, to choose good cutoff points. And if you, if you, if you add new ones, that's completely fine. But if you want to actually change them, course you, you figured out that you made a fundamental mistake, you're going to have a break in the continue continuity of your observability data. And you cannot undo this in, into the past. So this is just gone native histograms. On the other hand, allow me to, to, okay, I'm not going to get get into the math, but basically you define a single formula, which there comes a good default. If you have good reasons, then you can change it. But if you don't, just don't talk, >>The people are in the math, Hit him up on Twitter. Twitter, h you'll get you that math. >>So the, >>The thing is people want the math, believe me. >>Oh >>Yeah. I mean we don't have time, but hit him up. Yeah. >>There's ProCon in two weeks in Munich and there will be whole talk about like the, the dirty details of all of the stuff. But the, the high level answer is it just does what people would expect it to do. And with very little overhead, you become, you get highly, highly or high resolution histograms, which is really important for a lot of use cases. But this is not just Prometheus with my open metrics head on the 2.0 feature, like the breaking highlight feature of Open Metrics 2.0 will be you guested precisely the same with my open telemetry head on. Low and behold the same underlying technology is being put or has been put into open telemetry. And we've worked for month and month and month and even longer between all different projects to, to assert that we have one single standard which is actually compatible with each other course. One of the worst things which you can have in the cloud ecosystem is if you have soly different things and they break in subtly wrong ways, like it's much better to just not work than to break in a way, which is just a little bit wrong. Of course you won't figure this out until it's too late. So we spent, like with all three hats, we spent insane amounts of time on making this happen and, and making this nice. >>Savannah, one of the things we have so much going on at Cube Con. I mean just you're unpacking like probably another day of cube. We can't go four days, but open time. >>I know, I know. I'm the same >>Open telemetry >>Challenge acceptance open. >>Sorry, we're gonna stay here. All the, They >>Shut the lights off on us last night. >>They literally gonna pull the plug on us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They've done that before. It's not the first time we go until they kick us out. We love, love doing this. But Open telemetry is got a lot of news too. So that's, We haven't really talked much about that. >>We haven't at >>All. So there's a lot of stuff going on that, I won't call it boring. That's like code word's. That's cube talk for, for it's working. Yeah. So it's not bad, but there's a lot of stuff going on. Like open telemetry, open metrics, This is the stuff that matters cuz when you go in large scale, that's key. It's just what, missing all the, all the stuff. >>No, >>What are we missing? What are people missing? What's going on in the show that you think that's not actually being reported on? I mean it's a lot of high web assembly for instance got a lot >>Of high. Oh yeah, I was gonna say, I'm glad you're asking this because you, you've already mentioned about seven different hats that you wear. I can only imagine how many hats are actually in your hat cabinet. But you, you are someone with your, with your fingers in a lot of different things. So you can kind of give us a state of the union. Yeah. So go ahead. Let's talk about >>It. So I think you already hit a few good points. Ease of use is definitely one of them. And, and improving the developer experience and not having this like a value of pain. Yeah. That is one of the really big ones. It's going to be interesting cause it is boring. It is janitorial and it needs a different type of persona. A lot of, or maybe not most, but a large fraction of developers like the shiny stuff. And we could see this in Prometheus where like initially the people who contributed this the most where like those restless people who need to fix that one thing, this is impossible, are going to do it. Which changed over the years where the people who now contribute the most are off the janitorial. Like keep things boring, keep things running, still have substantial changes. But but not like more on the maintenance level. >>Yeah. The maintainers. I was just gonna bring that >>Up. Yeah. On the, on the keep things boring while still pushing 'em forward. Yeah. And the thing about ease of use is a lot of this is boring. A lot of this is strategy. A lot of this is toil. A lot of this takes lots of research also in areas where developers are not really good at, like UX for example, and ui like most software developers are really bad at those cause they just think differently from normal humans, I guess. >>So that's an interesting observation that you just made. I we could unpack that on a whole nother show as well. >>So the, the thing is this is going to be interesting for the open source scene course. This needs deliberate investment by companies who assign people to those projects and say, okay, fix that one thing or make it easier to use what have you. That is a lot easier with, with first party products and projects from companies cuz they can invest directly into the thing and they see much more of a value prop. It's, it's kind of normal by now to, to allow developers or even assigned developers onto open source projects. That's not so much the case for the tpms, for the architects, for the UX and your I people like for the documentation people that there's not as much awareness of that this is also driving value for everyone. Yes. And also there's not much as much. >>Yeah, that's a great point. This whole workflow production system of open source, which has grown and keeps growing and we'll keep growing. These be funded. And one of the things we were talking earlier in another session about is about the recession potentially we're hitting and the global issues, macroeconomics that might force some of these projects or companies not to get VC >>Funding. It's such a theme at the show. So, >>So to me, I said it's just not about VC funding. There's other funding mechanisms that's community oriented. There's companies participating, there's other meccas. Richie, if you could have your wishlist of how things could progress an open source, what would you want to see happen in terms of how it's, how things are funded, how things are executed. Cuz developers are going to run businesses. Cuz ultimately if you follow digital transformation to completion, it and developers aren't a department serving the business. They are the business. And that's coming fast. You know, what has to happen in your opinion, if you had the wish magic wand, what would you, what would you snap your fingers to make happen? >>If I had a magic wand that's very different from, from what is achievable. But let, let's >>Go with, Okay, go with the magic wand first. Cause we'll, we'll, we'll we'll riff on that. So >>I'm here for dreams. Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah. I mean I, I've been in open source for more than two, two decades, but now, and most of the open source is being driven forward by people who are not being paid for those. So for example, Gana is the first time I'm actually paid by a company to do my com community work. It's always been on the side. Of course I believe in it and I like doing it. I'm also not bad at it. And so I just kept doing it. But it was like at night on the weekends and everything. And to be honest, it's still at night and in the weekends, but the majority of it is during paid company time, which is awesome. Yeah. Most of the people who have driven this space forward are not in this position. They're doing it at night, they're doing it on the weekends. They're doing it out of dedication to a cause. Yeah. >>The commitment is insane. >>Yeah. At the same time you have companies mostly hyperscalers and either they have really big cloud offerings or they have really big advertisement business or both. And they're extracting a huge amount of value, which has been created in large part elsewhere. Like yes, they employ a ton of developers, but a lot of the technologies they built on and the shoulders of the giants they stand upon it are really poorly paid. And there are some efforts to like, I think the core foundation like which redistribute a little bit of money and such. But if I had my magic wand, everyone who is an open source and actually drives things forwards, get, I don't know, 20% of the value which they create just magically somehow. Yeah. >>Or, or other companies don't extract as much value and, and redistribute more like put more full-time engineers onto projects or whichever, like that would be the ideal state where the people who actually make the thing out of dedication are not more or less left on the sideline. Of course they're too dedicated to just say, Okay, I'm, I'm not doing this anymore. You figure this stuff out and let things tremble and falter. So I mean, it's like with nurses and such who, who just like, they, they know they have something which is important and they keep doing it. Of course they believe in it. >>I think this, I think this is an opportunity to start messaging this narrative because yeah, absolutely. Now we're at an inflection point where there's a big community, there is a shared responsibility in my opinion, to not spread the wealth, but make sure that it's equally balanced and, and the, and I think there's a way to do that. I don't know how yet, but I see that more than ever, it's not just come in, raid the kingdom, steal all the jewels, monetize it, and throw some token token money around. >>Well, in the burnout. Yeah, I mean I, the other thing that I'm thinking about too is it's, you know, it's, it's the, it's the financial aspect of this. It's the cognitive load. And I'm curious actually, when I ask you this question, how do you avoid burnout? You do a million different things and we're, you know, I'm sure the open source community that passion the >>Coach. Yeah. So it's just write code, >>It's, oh, my, my, my software engineering days are firmly over. I'm, I'm, I'm like, I'm the cat herer and the janitor and like this type of thing. I, I don't really write code anymore. >>It's how do you avoid burnout? >>So a i I didn't curse ahead burnout a few years ago. I was not nice, but that was still when I had like a full day job and that day job was super intense and on top I did all the things. Part of being honest, a lot of the people who do this are really dedicated and are really bad at setting boundaries between work >>And process. That's why I bring it up. Yeah. Literally why I bring it up. Yeah. >>I I I'm firmly in that area and I'm, I'm, I don't claim I have this fully figured out yet. It's also even more risky to some extent per like, it's, it's good if you're paid for this and you can do it during your work time. But on the other hand, if it's so nice and like if your hobby and your job are almost completely intersectional, it >>Becomes really, the lines are blurry. >>Yeah. And then yeah, like have work from home. You, you don't even commute anything or anymore. You just sit down at your computer and you just have fun doing your stuff and all of a sudden it's deep at night and you're still like, I want to keep going. >>Sounds like God, something cute. I >>Know. I was gonna say, I was like, passion is something we all have in common here on this. >>That's the key. That is the key point There is a, the, the passion project becomes the job. But now the contribution is interesting because now yeah, this ecosystem is, is has a commercial aspect. Again, this is the, this is the balance between commercialization and keeping that organic production system that's called open source. I mean, it's so fascinating and this is amazing. I want to continue that conversation. It's >>Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is great. Richard, this entire conversation has been excellent. Thank you so much for joining us. How can people find you? I mean, I give em your Twitter handle, but if they wanna find out more about Grafana Prometheus and the 1700 things you do >>For grafana grafana.com, for Prometheus, promeus.io for my own stuff, GitHub slash richie age slash talks. Of course I track all my talks in there and like, I don't, I currently don't have a personal website cause I stop bothering, but my, like that repository is, is very, you find what I do over, like for example, the recording link will be uploaded to this GitHub. >>Yeah. Great. Follow. You also run a lot of events and a lot of community activity. Congratulations for you. Also, I talked about this last time, the largest IRC network on earth. You ran, built a data center from scratch. What happened? You done >>That? >>Haven't done a, he even built a cloud hyperscale compete with Amazon. That's the next one. Why don't you put that on the >>Plate? We'll be sure to feature whatever Richie does next year on the cube. >>I'm game. Yeah. >>Fantastic. On that note, Richie, again, thank you so much for being here, John, always a pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for tuning in to us here live from Detroit, Michigan on the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson and here's to hoping that you find balance in your life this weekend.

(gentle music) >> Hello from Chicago, Lisa Martin here at AnsibleFest 2022 with John Furrier. John, it's great to be here. The transformation of enterprise and industry through automation. This is not only the 10th anniversary of Ansible, this was the first in-person AnsibleFest since 2019. >> It's awesome, it's awesome, Lisa, and I want to welcome everyone to our live performance here in Chicago. We were remote for two years, 2019 in Atlanta. AnsibleFest, part of Red Hat now, Red Hat part of IBM. So much has happened in the past couple years and I think one of the things that we're going to cover this week here in Chicago, is the evolution of Ansible, where it fits into the new cloud-native ecosystems emerging, and also, kind of, what it means for developers and operators. And we're going to see a lot of that here at AnsibleFest with wall-to-wall coverage, keynote just happened. Very interesting to see, you know, Ansible stayed true to their knitting, as you say, you know. What do they do? No big announcements. Some big community news. But humble. >> Very humble. Very humble, but also very excited. All the keynotes did a great job of addressing that community, and being grateful to the community for, really, the evolution that we see at Ansible and now 10 years later. They were talking a lot about smoothing operations for the developers, democratizing automation across the organization. They talked a little bit about that skills gap. I wanted to get your opinion, 'cause as we know there's, they talked about it from a demand perspective, there's over 300,000 open positions on LinkedIn for Ansible skills. So a lot of opportunity there, a lot of opportunity for them to help democratize automation across organizations. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the big theme last year we heard, "Three things, top three things at AnsibleFest 2021, Animation, Automation, Automation." Again, this year the same theme, "Automate everywhere" is what they're talking about. But I think you're right, there's a cultural shift where the entire cloud ecosystems kind of spun to the doorstep of what Ansible's ecosystem stood for for many years in the decade, which is configuration, running things at scale. That notion is now persistent across all the enterprise. And I think the key takeaway from the keynote, in my opinion, is that configuration and automation around devices and infrastructure stuff is an enterprise architecture now, it's not just a, kind of a corner case, or a specific use case, it's going to be native across the entire enterprise architecture. And that's why we heard a lot of cultural shift conversations. And that is where the people who are running the Ansible stuff, they're going to be the keys to having the keys to the kingdom. And I think you're going to see a lot more of this automation at scale. I love the introduction of ops-as-code, that's a little piggyback off of infrastructure-as-code and infrastructure-as-configuration. They're saying operations now is the new software model and it's like ops dev, not dev ops. So it's really interesting to see how the operator is now a very big important role in the next level of cloud native. And it's really exciting because this is kind of what we've been reporting on theCUBE, for over 12 years. So, watching Ansible grow organically into a powerhouse community is very interesting. To see how they operationalize this, you know, going forward. >> Well the operator's becoming really pivotal catalysts in this next way, that you've been covering for 12 years. You know, if we think about some of the challenges and the barriers to adopting automation that organizations have had, one of them has been skills, staff rather. The other has been, "Hey, we need to really determine which processes to automate, that's actually going to give us the most ROI, most bang for our buck." They talked a little bit about that today, but that's still something that Ansible is working with its customers and the community to help sort of demystify. >> Yeah and I think that they were front and center around, "You on the room," people in the room, "you make this happen." They're very much, it's not a top-down corporate thing, Ansible staying true to their roots as I mentioned. But the thing about skills gap is interesting, you heard Kaete Piccirilli talking about, "Level Up how your organization automates, push your people, expand your scope." So the theme is, the power is in the hands of this community to essentially be the new enterprise architecture for operations. At the same time that feeds the trend around, we're seeing this accelerated cloud-native developer we're seeing, we're going to be at KubeCon next week, that cloud-native developer, they want to go faster, they want self-service. So you're seeing higher velocity cloud-native development putting pressure on the ops teams to level up, so the theme kind of connects for me. I think Red Hat has got it right here, with Ansible, that the theme is shifting to ops better get their act together, to level up and to the velocity of what the developers are expecting. At the same time, giving them the freedom to be using infrastructure-as-code, infrastructure-as-configuration, and ultimately, ops-as-code. To me, I think this is like the evolution of how infrastructure-as-code, which is the nirvana of DevOps, now is ops-as-code. Which means, if that's true, ops becomes much more invisible, if you will, which is what developers want. >> And we're going to be breaking down ops-as-code today, no doubt, in our conversations with some of the great Ansible community folks and partners and leaders that we have on, as well as tomorrow in our full two days of coverage. You talked about cultural shift, we talk about that a lot John, it's challenging, but one of the things I think that was very palpable this morning, is the power of the Ansible community. Not just those folks that are here with us in Chicago, but all the folks watching virtually online. >> Yeah. >> Truly help drive that cultural shift that is needed for organizations to really be able to streamline cloud ops. >> Yeah and I think Adam Miller who came on, I thought his portion was excellent, around community. He talked about, you know, the 10 years, put a little exclamation point on that. Managing the communications within the community. He actually brought up IRC and Slack and then, "We have Discord." And they introduced a new standard for communications it's called Matrix, which is open-source based. And even in their decision making, their principles around open source stay true. Again, they checked the box there, I thought that was really cool. The other thing that, within the meat of the product, the automation platform, Matt Jones was talking about the scale, the managing at scale, is one thing. But the thing that I think that hit, jumped out at me, was that this trusted automation messaging was really huge. Signing, having signatures, that really hits the supply chain that we've been talking about, and we're going to talk about it next week at KubeCon, the software supply chain is trusting the code. And I think as you have automation, it's a really big part of the new platform. So, I thought that was really the meat on the bone there. >> That was a very strong theme, was the trust this morning. You know, another thing that was important was Walter Bentley, who's coming on, I believe, later today, talked about how organizations really need to think about the value that automation can deliver to the business and then develop an automation strategy, really thinking at it strategically rather than what a lot of folks have done. And they've put automation in sort of in silos and pockets. He's really talking about, how can you actually make it strategic across the organization and make sure that you really fully see and understand and can articulate the value to the business, from a competitive advantage perspective, that it's going to deliver. >> Yeah, and Stefanie Chiras who's coming on too, she mentioned a lot about the multi-cloud, multi-environment layer, how Ansible can sit across all the environments and then still support the cloud-native through what she called "an automation loop". That's going to be really talking to what we're seeing as multi-cloud or super-cloud, next-gen cloud, where Ansible's role of automating isn't just corner case in the enterprise. Again, if it's an enterprise-wide architecture, it will be a centerpiece of multi-cloud, multiple capabilities. Whether that's compatibility services or, you know, stuff running best of breed on different clouds. 'Cause, obviously Amazon was on stage here, they're talking about this, big Ansible supporter. So, we've got Google supporting Ansible, so you got the multiple clouds and even VM-Ware environments. So, Ansible sits across all this. And so, I think the big opportunity that I'm seeing come out of this, is that if Ansible is in this position, this could be a catalyst for them to be the multi-cloud hybrid architecture for configuration and operations, and I think, the edge is going to be a really interesting conversation. We have a lot of guests coming on, I'll talk about that. But, I think running distributed workloads across multiple clouds in multiple environments, that's a killer app and we'll see if they can pull it off. We're going to be drilling everyone on that topic today, so I'm looking forward to it. >> We're going to be dissecting that. I like how you paint that picture of Ansible really as the nucleus of that hybrid cloud strategy. You know, so many organizations are living in a hybrid cloud world for many reasons, but for Ansible to be able to be that catalyst. And question for you, if we think about that, when we talk about multi-cloud strategically or organically or whatnot, where is automation moving in terms of the customer conversation? We know Ansible's really focused on smoothing the developer experience, but where is automation going, in your vision, up the C-suite stack? >> Well, multi-cloud is a C-suite message and they love to hear that, but you talk to anyone who's in the trenches, they hate multi-cloud. It's more complexity and there's a lot of issues around latency. So what you're seeing is, you're starting to see an evolution of more about compatibility and interoperability. And this is kind of classic enterprise abstraction layers when you start getting into these inflection points, as things get better, so it gets sometimes more complex. So I think Ansible's notion of simplicity and ease of use, could be the catalyst for this abstraction layer between clouds. So it's all about reducing the complexities, because at the end of the day, if you want to do something on multiple clouds, whether that's run common services across, that's not making it simpler. You got to, it's going to be harder before it gets easier. So, if that makes any sense. So doing multi-cloud sounds great on paper, but it's really hard and that's why no one's really doing it. So you're going to start to see multi-cloud, what we call super-cloud, which is more capabilities on one cloud. And then having them still differentiate the idea that some standard's going to emerge, is complete fantasy. I think you're going to, we still need more innovation. Amazon does a great job, Microsoft's coming up on number two position as well, the clouds still need to differentiate. But that doesn't change Ansible's position. They can still be that shim layer or bolt-on, to whatever clouds do best. If you run 'em on machine learning on Google, that's cool. You want to use Amazon for this? How do you make those work? That's a hard problem. And, again, that's where automation ends up. >> And with that context, do you think that Ansible has the capability of helping to dial down some of the complexity that's in this hybrid multi-cloud world? >> Yeah, I mean, I think the thing about what's going on great here, that's unique in the history of the computer industry, is open source is so powerful and it continues to power away with growth. So, more code is coming. So, software supply chain is a big issue, we heard that with the trusted thing, but also now, how people buy now is different. You can actually try stuff out on open source and then go to Red Hat, Ansible, and say, "Hey, I'm going to get some support." So there's a lot of community collective intelligence involved in decision making, not just coding, but buyer selection and consumption. So the entire paradigm of purchasing software and using it, has completely changed. So, that puts Ansible in a leading position because they got a great community, and now you've got open source continuing to thrive away. So, if you're a customer, you don't need the big enterprise sales pitch you can just try the code, if you like it, then you go with Ansible. So it's really kind of set up nicely, this cloud market, for companies like Ansible, because they have the community and they got the software, it's open and it is what it is, it's transparent, everything's above board. >> Yeah, you know, you talk about the community, you mentioned Matrix earlier, and one of the things that was also quite resonant during the keynote this morning was the power of collaboration and how incredibly important that is to them, to stay native to their open-source roots, as you you said. But also really go to where the customers are. And they talked about that with respect to Matrix and Discord and that was an interesting, this is the community reaching out to really kind of grow upon itself. >> Well, being someone who's used all those tools, even IRC 'cause I'm old, all the old folks use IRC. Then the, kind of, Gen X'ers use, and the millennials use Slack. Discord, the way they mentioned Discord, it's so true. If you're a gamer, you're younger, you're using Discord. Now, Matrix is new, they're trying to introduce an open source, 'cause remember they don't control Discord and they don't control Slack. So Slack's Salesforce now, and Discord is probably going to try to get bought by Microsoft, but still, it's not open. So Matrix is their open-sourced chat service. And I thought that was interesting and I think, that got my attention, because that went against the principles of users that like Slack. So, it'd be great. I mean if Matrix, if that takes off, then that's going to be a case study of going against-the-grain on the best-of-breed package software like Slack or Discord. But I think the demographic shift is interesting. Discord is for younger generations, let's see how Matrix will do. And the uptake wasn't that big. Only been around for a couple months, we've seen almost 5,000 members. But, you know, not a failure. >> Right. >> But not a home run either. >> Right. Well we'll have to see how that progresses- >> Yeah, we'll see how that plays out. >> as all of the generations in the workforce today try to work together and collaborate. You know, if we think about some of the things that we're going to talk about today and tomorrow, business outcomes, increasing business agility, being able to ensure compliance, with security and regulatory requirements, which are only proliferating, really also helping organizations to optimize those costs and be as competitive as they possibly can. So I'm excited to dissect the announcements that came out today, some of the things that we're going to hear today and tomorrow, and really get a great view of the automation infrastructure marketplace and what's going on. >> Yeah, it's going to be great. Infrastructure-as-code, infrastructure-as-config, operations-as-code, it's all leading to, you know, distributed computing edge. It's hybrid. >> Yep. All right John- >> Yeah. >> looking forward to two days of wall-to-wall CUBE coverage with you, coming to you live from Chicago, at the first AnsibleFest in person, since 2019. Lisa Martin and John Furrier with you here all day today and tomorrow, stick around, our first guest joins us. We're going to dissect ops-as-code, stick around. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2020. I'm your host with theCUBE John Furrier. And we've got two great guests. A CUBE alumni, Robyn Bergeron, senior manager, Ansible community team. Welcome back, she's with Ansible and Red Hat. Good to see you. And Matt Jones, chief architect for the Ansible Automation Platform. Again, both with Red Hat, Ansible was acquired by Red Hat. Robyn used to work for Red Hat, then went to Ansible. Ansible got bought by Red Hat. Robyn, great to see you, Matt, great to see you. >> Yep, thanks for having me back again. It's good to see you. >> We're not in person. It's the virtual event. Thanks for coming on remotely to our CUBE virtual, really appreciate it. I want to talk about the, and I brought that Red Hat kind of journey Robyn. We talked about it last year, but it really is an important point. The roots of Ansible and kind of where it's come from and what it's turned into and where it is today, is an interesting journey because the mission is still the same. I would like to get your perspectives because you know, Red Hat was acquired by IBM, Ansible's under Red Hat, all part of one big happy family. A lot's going on around the platform, Matt, you're the chief architect, Robyn you're on the community team. Collections, collections, collections, is the message, content, content, content, community, a lot going on. So take a minute, both of you explain the Ansible roots, where it is today, and the mission. >> Right, so beginning of Ansible was really, there was a small team of folks and they'd actually been through an iteration before that didn't use SSH called Funk, but you know, it was, let's make a piece of software that is open source that allows people to automate other things. And we knew at the time that, you know, based on a piece of research that we had seen out of Harvard that having a piece of software be architected in a modular fashion wasn't just great for the software, but it was also great for developing pathways and connections for the community to actually contribute stuff. If you have a car, this is always my analogy. If you have a car, you don't have to know how the engine works in order to swap out the windshield wipers or embed new windshield wipers, things like that. The nice thing about modular architectures is that it doesn't just mean that things can plug in. It means you can actually separate them into different spots to enable them to be plugged in. And that's sort of where we are today with collections, right? We've always had this sense of modules, but everything except for a couple of points in time, all of the modules, the ways that you connect Ansible to the vast array of technologies that you can use it with. All of those have always been in the full Ansible repository. Now we've separated out most of, you know, nearly everything that is not absolutely essential to having in a, you know, a very minimal Ansible installation, broken them out into separate repositories, that are usually grouped by function, right? So there's probably like a VMware something and a cloud something, and a IBM, z/OS something, things like that, right? Each in their own individual groups. So now, not only can contributors find what they want to contribute to in much smaller spots that are not a sea of 5,000 plus folks doing work. But now you can also choose to use your Ansible collections, update them, run them independently of just the singular release of Ansible, where you got everything, all the batteries included in one spot. >> Matt, this brings up the point about she's bringing in more advanced functionality, she's talking about collections. This has been kind of the Ansible formula from the beginning in its startup days, ease of use, easy, fast automation. Talk about the, you know, back in 2013 it was a startup. Now it's part of Red Hat. The game is still the same. Can you just share kind of what's the current guiding principles around Ansible this year? Because lots going on, like I said, faster, bigger, a lot going on, share your perspective. You've been there. >> Yeah, you know, what we're working on now is we're taking this great tool that has changed the way that automation works for a lot of people and we want to make it faster and bigger and better. We want it to scale better. We want it to automate more and be easier to automate, automate all the things that people want to do. And so we're really focusing on that scalability and flexibility. Robyn talked about content and collections, right? And what we want to enable is people to bring the content collections, the collections, the roles, the models, and use them in the way that they feel works best for them, leaving aside some of the things that they maybe aren't quite as interested in and put it together in a way that scales for them and scales for a global automation, automation everywhere. >> Yeah, I want to dig into the collections later, Robyn, for sure. And Matt, so let's, we'll put that on pause for a minute. I want to get into the event, the virtual event. Obviously we're not face to face, this year's virtual. You guys are both keynoting. Matt, we'll start with you. If you can each give 60 seconds, kind of a rundown of your keynote talk, give us the quick summary this year on the keynotes, Matt, we'll start with you. >> Yeah. That's, 60 seconds is- >> If you need a minute and a half, we'll give you 90 seconds, Robyn, that's going to be tough. Matt, we'll start with you. >> I'll try. So this year, and I mentioned the focus on scalability and flexibility, we on the product and on the platform, on the Ansible Automation Platform, the goal here is to bring content and flexibility of that content into the platform for you. We focused a lot on how you execute, how you run automation, how you manage your automation, and so bringing that content management automation into the system for you. It's really important to us. But what we're also noticing is that we, people are managing automation at a much larger scale. So we are updating the Ansible Tower, Ansible AWX, the automation platform, we're updating it to be more flexible in how it runs content, and where it can run content. We're making it so that execution of automation doesn't just have to happen in your data center, in one data center, we recognize that automation occurs globally, and we want to expand that automation execution capability to be able to run globally and all report back into your central business. We're also expanding over the next six months, a year, how well Ansible integrates with OpenShift and Kubernetes. This is a huge focus for us. We want that experience for automation to feel the same, whether you're automating at the edge, in devices and virtual machines and data centers, as well as clusters and Kubernetes clusters anywhere in the world. >> That's awesome. That's why I brought that up earlier. I wanted to get that out there because it's worth calling out that the Ansible mission from the beginning was similar scope, easy to do and simplify, but now it's larger scale. Again, it's everywhere, harder to do, hence complexity being extracted away. So thank you for sharing. We'll dig into that in a second. Okay, Robyn, 60 seconds or more, if you need it, your keynote this year at AnsibleFest, give us the quick rundown. >> All right. Well, I think we probably know at this point, one of the main themes this year is called automate to connect and, you know, the purpose of the community keynote is really to highlight the achievements of the community. So, you know, we are talking about, well, we are talking about collections, you know, going through some of the very broad highlights of that, and also how that has contributed, or, not contributed, how that is included as part of the recent release of Ansible 2.10, which was really the first release where we've got it very easy for people to actually start using collections and getting familiar with what that brings to them. A good portion of the keynote is also just about innovation, right? Like how we do things in open source and why we do things in certain ways in open source to accelerate us. And how that compares with the Red Hat, traditional product model, which is, we kind of, we do a lot of innovation upstream. We move quickly so that if something is maybe not the right idea, we can move on. And then in our products, that's sort of the thing that we give to our customers that is tried, tested and true. All of that kind of jazz. We also talk about, or I guess I also talk about the, all of our initiatives that we're doing around diversity and inclusiveness, including some of the code changes that we've made for better, more inclusive language in our projects and our downstream products, our diversity and inclusion working group that we have in the community land, which is, you know, just looking to embrace more and more people. It's a lot about connectivity, right? To one of Matt's points about all the things that we're trying to achieve and how it's similar to the original principles, the third one was, it's always, we need to have it to be easy to contribute to. It doesn't necessarily just mean in our community, right? Like we see in all of these workplaces, which is one of the reasons why we brought in Automation Hub, that folks inside large organizations, companies, government, whatever it is, are using Ansible and there's more and more, and, you know, there's one person, they tell their friend, they tell another friend, and next thing you know, it's the whole department. And then you find people in other departments and then you've got a ton of people doing stuff. And we all know that you can do a bunch of stuff by yourself, but you can accomplish a lot more together. And so, making it easy to contribute inside your organization is not much different than being able to contribute inside the community. So this is just a further recognition, I think, of what we see as just a natural extension of open source. >> I think the community angle is super important 'cause you have the community in terms of people contributing, but you also have multiple vendors now, multiple clouds, multiple integrations, the stakeholders of collaboration have increased. It was just like, "Oh, here's the upstream and et cetera, we're done, and have meetings, do all that stuff." And Matt, that brings me to my next question. Can you talk about some of the recent releases that have changed the content experience for the Ansible users in the upstream and within the automation platform? >> Well, so last year we released collections, and we've really been moving towards that over the 2.9, 2.10 timeframe. And now I think you're starting to see sort of the realization of that, right? This year we've released Automation Hub on cloud.redhat.com so that we can concentrate that vendor and partner content that Red Hat supports and certifies. In AnsibleFest you'll hear us talk about Private Automation Hub. This is bringing that content experience to the customer, to the user of this content, sort of helping you curate and manage that content yourself, like Robyn said, like we want to build communities around the content that you've developed. That's the whole reason that we've done this with collections is we don't want to bind it to Ansible core releases. We don't want to block content releases, all of this great functionality that the community is building. This is what collections mean. You should be free to use the collections that you want when you want it, regardless of when Ansible core itself has released. >> Can you just take a minute real quick and just explain what is collections, for folks out there who are rich? 'Cause that's the big theme here, collections, collections, collections. That's what I'm hearing resonate throughout the virtual hallways, if you will. Twitter and beyond. >> That's a good question. Like what is a collection itself? So we've talked a lot in the past about reusable content for Ansible. We talk a lot about roles and modules and we sort of put those off to the side a little bit and say, "These are your reusable components." You can put 'em anywhere you want. You can put 'em in source control, distribute them through email, it doesn't matter. And then your playbooks, that's what you write. And that's your sort of blessed content. Collections are really about taking the modules and roles and plugins, the things that make automation possible, and bundling those up together in groups of content, groups of modules and roles, or standing by themselves so that you can decide how that's distributed and how you consume that, right? Like you might have the Azure, VMware or Red Hat satellite collection that you're using. And you're happy with that. But you want a new version of Ansible. You're not bound to using one and the same. You can stick with the content that matters to you, the roles, the modules, the plugins that work for you. And you decide when to update those and you know, what the actual modules and plugins you're using are. >> So I got to ask the content question, you know, I'm a content producer. We do videos as content, blog posts content. When you talk about content, it's code, clarify that role for us because you got, you're enabling developers with content and helping them find experts. This is a concept. Robyn, talk about this. And Matt, you can weigh in, too, define what does content mean? It means different things. (indistinct) again, content could be. >> It is one of those words, it's right up there with developers, you know, so many different things that that can mean, especially- >> Explain content and the importance of the semantics of that. Explain it, it's important that people understand the semantics of the word "content" with respect to what's going on with Ansible. >> Yeah, and Matt and I actually had a conversation about the murkiness of this word, I believe that was yesterday. So what I think about our content, you know, and I try to put myself in the mind, my first job was a CIS admin. So I try to put myself in the mind of someone who might be using this content that I'm about to attempt to explain. Like Matt just explained, we've always had these modules, which were included in Ansible. People have pieces of code that show very basic things, right? If I get one of the AWS modules, it would, I am able to do things like "I would like to create a new user." So you might make a role that actually describes the steps in Ansible, that you would have to create a new user that is able to access AWS services at your company. There may be a number of administrators who want to use that piece of stuff, that piece of code over and over and over again, because hopefully most companies are getting bigger and not smaller, right? They want to have more people accessing all sorts of pieces of technology. So making some of these chunks accessible to lots of folks is really important, right? Because what good is automation, if, sure we've taken care of half of it, but if you still have to come up with your own bits of code from scratch every time you want to invoke it, you're still not really leveraging the full power of collaboration. So when we talk about content, to me, it really is things that are constantly reusable, that are accessible, that you tie together with modules that you're getting from collections. And I think it's that bundle, you can keep those pits of reusable content in the collections or keep them separate. But, you know, it's stuff that is baked for you, or that maybe somebody inside your organization bakes, but they only have to bake it once. They don't have to bake it in 25 silos over and over and over again. >> Matt, the reason why we're talking about this is interesting, 'cause you know what this points out, in my opinion, it's my opinion. This points out that we're talking about content as a word means that you guys were on the cutting edge of new paradigms, which is content, it's essentially code, but it's addressable, community it's being shared. Someone wrote the code and it's a whole 'nother level of thinking. This is kind of a platform automation. I get it. So give us your thoughts because this is a critical component because the origination of the content, the code, I mean, I love it. Content is, I've always said content, our content should be code. It's all data, but this is interesting. This is the cutting edge concept. Could you explain what it means from your perspective? >> This is about building communities around that content, right? Like it's that sharing that didn't exist before, like Robyn mentioned, like, you know, you shouldn't have to build the same thing a dozen times or 100 times, you should be able to leverage the capabilities of experts and people who understand that section of automation the best, like I might be an expert in one field or Robyn's an expert in another field, we're automating in the same space. We should be able to bring our own expertise and resources together. And so this is what that content is. Like, I'm an expert in one, you're an expert in another, let's bring them together as part of our automation community and share them so that we can use them iterate on them and build on them and just constantly make them better. >> And the concepts are consumption, there's consumption of the content. There's the collaboration of the content. There's the sharing, all this, and there's reputation, there's expertise. I mean, it's a multi sided marketplace here, isn't it? >> Yeah. I read a article, I don't know, a year or two ago that said, we've always evolved in the technology industry around, if you have access to this, first it was the mainframes. Then it was, whatever, personal computers, the cloud, now it's containers, all of this, but, once everybody buys that mainframe or once everybody levels up their skills to whatever the next thing is that you can just buy, there's not much left that actually can help you to differentiate from your competitors, other than your ability to actually leverage all of those tools. And if you can actually have better collaboration, I think than other folks, then that is one of those points that actually will get you ahead in your digital transformation curve. >> I've been harping on this for a while. I think that cloud native finally has gone, when I say "mainstream" I mean like on everyone's mind, you look at the container uptake, you're looking at containers. We had IDC on, five to 10% of the enterprises are containerizing. That's huge growth opportunity. The IPO of, say, Snowflake's on Amazon. I mean, how does this happen? That's a company that's went public, It's the most valuable IPO in the history of IPOs on Wall Street. And it's built on Amazon, it has its own cloud. So it's like, I mean, this points to the new value that's being created on top of these new cloud native architectures. So I really think you guys are onto something big here. And I think you're starting to see this, new notions of how things are being rethought and reimagined. So let's keep it, while I've got you guys here real quick, Ansible 2.1 community release. Tell us more about the updates there. >> Oh, 2.10, because, yeah. Oh, that's fine. I know I too have had, I'm like, "Why do we do that?" But it's semantic versioning. So I am more accustomed to this now, it's a slightly different world from when I worked on Fedora. You know, I think the big highlight there is really collections. I mean, it's collections, collections, collections. That is all the work that we did, it's under the hood, over the hood, and really, how we went from being all in one repo to breaking things out. It's a big line for, we're advancing both the tool and also advancing the community's ability to actually collaborate together. And, you know, as folks start to actually use it, it's a big change for them potentially in how they can actually work together in their organizations using Ansible. One of the big things we did focus on was ensuring that their ease of use, that their experience did not change. So if they have existing Ansible stuff that they're running, playbooks, mod roles, et cetera, they should be able to use 2.10 and not see any discernible change. That's all the under the hood. That was a lot of surgery, wasn't it, Matt? Serious amounts of work. >> So Matt, 2.10, does that impact the release piece of it for the developers and the customers out there? What does it change? >> It's a good point. Like at least for the longer term, this means that we can focus on the Ansible core experience. And this is the part that we didn't touch on much before now with the collections pieces that now when we're fixing bugs, when we're iterating and making Ansible as an engine of automation better, we can do that without negatively impacting the automation that people actually use. We could focus on the core experience of actually automating itself. >> Execution environments, let's talk about that. What are they, are they being used in the community today? What do you guys react to that? >> We're actually, we're sort of in the middle of building this right now. Like one of the things that we've struggled with is when you, you need to automate, you need this content that we've talked about before. But beyond that, you have the system that sits underneath the version of Linux, the kernel that you're using, going even further, you need Python dependencies, you need library dependencies. These are hard and complicated things, like in the Ansible Tower space, we have virtual environments, which lets you install those things right alongside the Ansible Tower control plane. This can cause a lot of problems. So execution environments, they take those dependencies, the unit that is the environment that you need to run your automation in, and we're going to containerize it. You were just talking about this from the containerization perspective, right? We're going to build more easily isolated, easy to use distinct units of environments that will let you run your automation. This is great. This lets you, the person who's building the content for your organization, he can develop it and test it and send it through the CI process all the way up through production, it's the exact same environment. You could feel confident that the automation that you're running against the libraries and the models, the version of Ansible that you're using, is the same when you're developing the content as when you're running it in production for your business, for your users, for your customers. >> And that's the Nirvana. This is really where you talk about pushing it to new limits. Real quick, just to kind of end it out here for Ansible 2020, AnsibleFest 2020. Obviously we're now virtual, people aren't there in person, which is really an intimate event. Last year was awesome. Had theCUBE set right there, great event, people were intimate. What's going on for what you guys have for people that obviously we got the videos and got the media content. What's the main theme, Robyn and Matt, and what's going on for resources that might be available for folks who want to learn more, what's going on in the community, can you just take a minute each to talk about some of the exciting things that are going on at the event that they should pay attention to, and obviously, it's asynchronous so they can go anywhere anytime they want, it's the internet. Where can they go to hang out? Is there a hang space? Just give the quick two second commercial, Robyn, we'll start with you. >> All right. Well of course you can catch the keynotes early in the morning. I look forward to everybody's super exciting, highly polite comments. 'Cause I hear there's a couple people coming to this event, at least a few. I know within the event platform itself, there are chat rooms for each track. I myself will be probably hanging out in some of the diversity and inclusion spaces, honestly, and I, this is part of my keynote. You know, one of the great things about AnsibleFest is for me, and I was at the original AnsibleFest that had like 20 people in Boston in 2013. And it happened directly across the street from Red Hat Summit, which is why I was able to just ditch my job and go across the street to my future job, so to speak. We were... Well, I just lost my whole train of thought and ruined everything. Jeez. >> We got that you're going to be in the chat rooms for the diversity and community piece, off platform, is there a Slack? Is there like a site? Anything else? 'Cause you know, when the event's over, they're going to come back and consume on demand, but also the community, is there a Discord? I mean, all kinds of stuff's going on, popping up with these virtual spaces. >> One thing I should highlight is we do have the Ansible Contributor Summit that goes on the day before AnsibleFest and the day after AnsibleFest. Now, normally this is a pretty intimate event with the large outreach that we've gotten with this Fest, which is much bigger than the original one, much, much, much bigger, we've, and signing up for the contributor summit is part of the registration process for AnsibleFest. So we've actually geared our first day of that event to be towards new or aspiring contributors rather than the traditional format that we've had, which is where we have a lot of engineers, and can you remember sit down physically or in a virtual room and really talk about all of the things going on under the hood, which is, you know, can be intimidating for new people. Like "I just wanted to learn about how to contribute, not how to do surgery." So the first day is really geared towards making everything accessible to new people because turns out there's a lot of new people who are very excited about Ansible and we want to make sure that we're giving them the content that they need. >> Think about architects. I mean, SREs are jumping in, Matt, you talked about large scale. You're the chief architect, new blood's coming in. But give us an update on your perspective, what people should pay attention to at the event, after the event, communities they could be involved in, certainly people want to tap into you are an expert and find out what's going on. What's your comment? >> Yeah, you know, we have a whole new session track this year on architects, specifically for SREs and automation architects. We really want to highlight that. We want to give that sort of empowerment to the personas of people who, you know, maybe you're not a developer, maybe you're not, operations or a VP of your company. You're looking at the architecture of automation, how you can make our automation better for you and your organization. Everybody's suffered a lot and struggled with the COVID-19. We're no different, right? We want to show how automation can empower you, empower your organization and your company, just like we've struggled also. And we're excited about the things that we want to deliver in the next six months to a year. We want you to hear about those. We want you to hear about content and collections. We want you to hear about scalability, execution environments, we're really excited about what we're doing. You know, use the tools that we've provided in the AnsibleFest event experience to communicate with us, to talk to us. You can always find us on IRC via email, GitHub. We want people to continue to engage with us, our community, our open source community, to engage with us in the same ways that they have. And now we just want to share the things that we're working on, so that we can all collaborate on it and automate better. >> I'm really glad you said that. I mean, again, people are impacted by COVID-19. I got, it sounds like all channels are open. I got to say of all the communities that are having to work from home and are impacted by digital, developers probably are less impacted. They got more time to gain, they don't have to travel, they could hang out, they're used to some of these tools. So I think I guess the strategy is turn on all the channels and engage in new ways. And that seems to be the message, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Alright, Robyn Bergeron, great to see you again, Matt Jones, great to chat with you, chief architect for Ansible Automation Platform and of course, Robyn senior manager for the community team. Thanks so much for joining me today. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay. It's theCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're here in the studio in Palo Alto. We're virtual. This is theCUBE virtual with AnsibleFest virtual. We're not face to face. Thank you for watching. (calm music)

(water running) (upbeat music) (electric buzzing) >> Fuel up! (upbeat music) (audience clapping) (upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE I'm in our Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. We have a great lineup here for DockerCon 2020. Virtual event, normally it was in person face to face. I'll be with you throughout the day from an amazing lineup of content, over 50 different sessions, cube tracks, keynotes, and we've got two great co-hosts here with Docker, Jenny Burcio and Bret Fisher. We'll be with you all day today, taking you through the program, helping you navigate the sessions. I'm so excited. Jenny, this is a virtual event. We talk about this. Can you believe it? Maybe the internet gods be with us today and hope everyone's having-- >> Yes. >> Easy time getting in. Jenny, Bret, thank you for-- >> Hello. >> Being here. >> Hey. >> Hi everyone, so great to see everyone chatting and telling us where they're from. Welcome to the Docker community. We have a great day planned for you. >> Guys great job getting this all together. I know how hard it is. These virtual events are hard to pull off. I'm blown away by the community at Docker. The amount of sessions that are coming in the sponsor support has been amazing. Just the overall excitement around the brand and the opportunities given this tough times where we're in. It's super exciting again, made the internet gods be with us throughout the day, but there's plenty of content. Bret's got an amazing all day marathon group of people coming in and chatting. Jenny, this has been an amazing journey and it's a great opportunity. Tell us about the virtual event. Why DockerCon virtual. Obviously everyone's canceling their events, but this is special to you guys. Talk about DockerCon virtual this year. >> The Docker community shows up at DockerCon every year, and even though we didn't have the opportunity to do an in person event this year, we didn't want to lose the time that we all come together at DockerCon. The conversations, the amazing content and learning opportunities. So we decided back in December to make DockerCon a virtual event. And of course when we did that, there was no quarantine we didn't expect, you know, I certainly didn't expect to be delivering it from my living room, but we were just, I mean we were completely blown away. There's nearly 70,000 people across the globe that have registered for DockerCon today. And when you look at DockerCon of past right live events, really and we're learning are just the tip of the iceberg and so thrilled to be able to deliver a more inclusive global event today. And we have so much planned I think. Bret, you want to tell us some of the things that you have planned? >> Well, I'm sure I'm going to forget something 'cause there's a lot going on. But, we've obviously got interviews all day today on this channel with John and the crew. Jenny has put together an amazing set of all these speakers, and then you have the captain's on deck, which is essentially the YouTube live hangout where we just basically talk shop. It's all engineers, all day long. Captains and special guests. And we're going to be in chat talking to you about answering your questions. Maybe we'll dig into some stuff based on the problems you're having or the questions you have. Maybe there'll be some random demos, but it's basically not scripted, it's an all day long unscripted event. So I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun hanging out in there. >> Well guys, I want to just say it's been amazing how you structured this so everyone has a chance to ask questions, whether it's informal laid back in the captain's channel or in the sessions, where the speakers will be there with their presentations. But Jenny, I want to get your thoughts because we have a site out there that's structured a certain way for the folks watching. If you're on your desktop, there's a main stage hero. There's then tracks and Bret's running the captain's tracks. You can click on that link and jump into his session all day long. He's got an amazing set of line of sleet, leaning back, having a good time. And then each of the tracks, you can jump into those sessions. It's on a clock, it'll be available on demand. All that content is available if you're on your desktop. If you're on your mobile, it's the same thing. Look at the calendar, find the session that you want. If you're interested in it, you could watch it live and chat with the participants in real time or watch it on demand. So there's plenty of content to navigate through. We do have it on a clock and we'll be streaming sessions as they happen. So you're in the moment and that's a great time to chat in real time. But there's more, Jenny, getting more out of this event. You guys try to bring together the stimulation of community. How does the participants get more out of the the event besides just consuming some of the content all day today? >> Yes, so first set up your profile, put your picture next to your chat handle and then chat. John said we have various setups today to help you get the most out of your experience are breakout sessions. The content is prerecorded, so you get quality content and the speakers and chat so you can ask questions the whole time. If you're looking for the hallway track, then definitely check out the captain's on deck channel. And then we have some great interviews all day on the queue. So set up your profile, join the conversation and be kind, right? This is a community event. Code of conduct is linked on every page at the top, and just have a great day. >> And Bret, you guys have an amazing lineup on the captain, so you have a great YouTube channel that you have your stream on. So the folks who were familiar with that can get that either on YouTube or on the site. The chat is integrated in, So you're set up, what do you got going on? Give us the highlights. What are you excited about throughout your day? Take us through your program on the captains. That's going to be probably pretty dynamic in the chat too. >> Yeah, so I'm sure we're going to have lots of, stuff going on in chat. So no cLancaerns there about, having crickets in the chat. But we're going to be basically starting the day with two of my good Docker captain friends, (murmurs) and Laura Taco. And we're going to basically start you out and at the end of this keynote, at the end of this hour and we're going to get you going and then you can maybe jump out and go to take some sessions. Maybe there's some stuff you want to check out and other sessions that you want to chat and talk with the instructors, the speakers there, and then you're going to come back to us, right? Or go over, check out the interviews. So the idea is you're hopping back and forth and throughout the day we're basically changing out every hour. We're not just changing out the guests basically, but we're also changing out the topics that we can cover because different guests will have different expertise. We're going to have some special guests in from Microsoft, talk about some of the cool stuff going on there, and basically it's captains all day long. And if you've been on my YouTube live show you've watched that, you've seen a lot of the guests we have on there. I'm lucky to just hang out with all these really awesome people around the world, so it's going to be fun. >> Awesome and the content again has been preserved. You guys had a great session on call for paper sessions. Jenny, this is good stuff. What other things can people do to make it interesting? Obviously we're looking for suggestions. Feel free to chirp on Twitter about ideas that can be new. But you guys got some surprises. There's some selfies, what else? What's going on? Any secret, surprises throughout the day. >> There are secret surprises throughout the day. You'll need to pay attention to the keynotes. Bret will have giveaways. I know our wonderful sponsors have giveaways planned as well in their sessions. Hopefully right you feel conflicted about what you're going to attend. So do know that everything is recorded and will be available on demand afterwards so you can catch anything that you miss. Most of them will be available right after they stream the initial time. >> All right, great stuff, so they've got the Docker selfie. So the Docker selfies, the hashtag is just DockerCon hashtag DockerCon. If you feel like you want to add some of the hashtag no problem, check out the sessions. You can pop in and out of the captains is kind of the cool kids are going to be hanging out with Bret and then all they'll knowledge and learning. Don't miss the keynote, the keynote should be solid. We've got chain Governor from red monk delivering a keynote. I'll be interviewing him live after his keynote. So stay with us. And again, check out the interactive calendar. All you got to do is look at the calendar and click on the session you want. You'll jump right in. Hop around, give us feedback. We're doing our best. Bret, any final thoughts on what you want to share to the community around, what you got going on the virtual event, just random thoughts? >> Yeah, so sorry we can't all be together in the same physical place. But the coolest thing about as business online, is that we actually get to involve everyone, so as long as you have a computer and internet, you can actually attend DockerCon if you've never been to one before. So we're trying to recreate that experience online. Like Jenny said, the code of conduct is important. So, we're all in this together with the chat, so try to be nice in there. These are all real humans that, have feelings just like me. So let's try to keep it cool. And, over in the Catherine's channel we'll be taking your questions and maybe playing some music, playing some games, giving away some free stuff, while you're, in between sessions learning, oh yeah. >> And I got to say props to your rig. You've got an amazing setup there, Bret. I love what your show, you do. It's really bad ass and kick ass. So great stuff. Jenny sponsors ecosystem response to this event has been phenomenal. The attendance 67,000. We're seeing a surge of people hitting the site now. So if you're not getting in, just, Wade's going, we're going to crank through the queue, but the sponsors on the ecosystem really delivered on the content side and also the sport. You want to share a few shout outs on the sponsors who really kind of helped make this happen. >> Yeah, so definitely make sure you check out the sponsor pages and you go, each page is the actual content that they will be delivering. So they are delivering great content to you. So you can learn and a huge thank you to our platinum and gold authors. >> Awesome, well I got to say, I'm super impressed. I'm looking forward to the Microsoft Amazon sessions, which are going to be good. And there's a couple of great customer sessions there. I tweeted this out last night and let them get you guys' reaction to this because there's been a lot of talk around the COVID crisis that we're in, but there's also a positive upshot to this is Cambridge and explosion of developers that are going to be building new apps. And I said, you know, apps aren't going to just change the world, they're going to save the world. So a lot of the theme here is the impact that developers are having right now in the current situation. If we get the goodness of compose and all the things going on in Docker and the relationships, this real impact happening with the developer community. And it's pretty evident in the program and some of the talks and some of the examples. how containers and microservices are certainly changing the world and helping save the world, your thoughts. >> Like you said, a number of sessions and interviews in the program today that really dive into that. And even particularly around COVID, Clement Beyondo is sharing his company's experience, from being able to continue operations in Italy when they were completely shut down beginning of March. We have also in theCUBE channel several interviews about from the national Institute of health and precision cancer medicine at the end of the day. And you just can really see how containerization and developers are moving in industry and really humanity forward because of what they're able to build and create, with advances in technology. >> Yeah and the first responders and these days is developers. Bret compose is getting a lot of traction on Twitter. I can see some buzz already building up. There's huge traction with compose, just the ease of use and almost a call for arms for integrating into all the system language libraries, I mean, what's going on with compose? I mean, what's the captain say about this? I mean, it seems to be really tracking in terms of demand and interest. >> I think we're over 700,000 composed files on GitHub. So it's definitely beyond just the standard Docker run commands. It's definitely the next tool that people use to run containers. Just by having that we just buy, and that's not even counting. I mean that's just counting the files that are named Docker compose YAML. So I'm sure a lot of you out there have created a YAML file to manage your local containers or even on a server with Docker compose. And the nice thing is is Docker is doubling down on that. So we've gotten some news recently, from them about what they want to do with opening the spec up, getting more companies involved because compose is already gathered so much interest from the community. You know, AWS has importers, there's Kubernetes importers for it. So there's more stuff coming and we might just see something here in a few minutes. >> All right, well let's get into the keynote guys, jump into the keynote. If you missing anything, come back to the stream, check out the sessions, check out the calendar. Let's go, let's have a great time. Have some fun, thanks and enjoy the rest of the day we'll see you soon. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Okay, what is the name of that Whale? >> Molly. >> And what is the name of this Whale? >> Mobby. >> That's right, dad's got to go, thanks bud. >> Bye. >> Bye. Hi, I'm Scott Johnson, CEO of Docker and welcome to DockerCon 2020. This year DockerCon is an all virtual event with more than 60,000 members of the Docker Community joining from around the world. And with the global shelter in place policies, we're excited to offer a unifying, inclusive virtual community event in which anyone and everyone can participate from their home. As a company, Docker has been through a lot of changes since our last DockerCon last year. The most important starting last November, is our refocusing 100% on developers and development teams. As part of that refocusing, one of the big challenges we've been working on, is how to help development teams quickly and efficiently get their app from code to cloud And wouldn't it be cool, if developers could quickly deploy to the cloud right from their local environment with the commands and workflow they already know. We're excited to give you a sneak preview of what we've been working on. And rather than slides, we thought we jumped right into the product. And joining me demonstrate some of these cool new features, is enclave your DACA. One of our engineers here at Docker working on Docker compose. Hello Lanca. >> Hello. >> We're going to show how an application development team collaborates using Docker desktop and Docker hub. And then deploys the app directly from the Docker command line to the clouds in just two commands. A development team would use this to quickly share functional changes of their app with the product management team, with beta testers or other development teams. Let's go ahead and take a look at our app. Now, this is a web app, that randomly pulls words from the database, and assembles them into sentences. You can see it's a pretty typical three tier application with each tier implemented in its own container. We have a front end web service, a middle tier, which implements the logic to randomly pull the words from the database and assemble them and a backend database. And here you can see the database uses the Postgres official image from Docker hub. Now let's first run the app locally using Docker command line and the Docker engine in Docker desktop. We'll do a Doc compose up and you can see that it's pulling the containers from our Docker organization account. Wordsmith, inc. Now that it's up. Let's go ahead and look at local host and we'll confirm that the application is functioning as desired. So there's one sentence, let's pull and now you and you can indeed see that we are pulling random words and assembling into sentences. Now you can also see though that the look and feel is a bit dated. And so Lanca is going to show us how easy it is to make changes and share them with the rest of the team. Lanca, over to you. >> Thank you, so I have, the source code of our application on my machine and I have updated it with the latest team from DockerCon 2020. So before committing the code, I'm going to build the application locally and run it, to verify that indeed the changes are good. So I'm going to build with Docker compose the image for the web service. Now that the image has been built, I'm going to deploy it locally. Wait to compose up. We can now check the dashboard in a Docker desktop that indeed our containers are up and running, and we can access, we can open in the web browser, the end point for the web service. So as we can see, we have the latest changes in for our application. So as you can see, the application has been updated successfully. So now, I'm going to push the image that I have just built to my organization's shared repository on Docker hub. So I can do this with Docker compose push web. Now that the image has been updated in the Docker hub repository, or my teammates can access it and check the changes. >> Excellent, well, thank you Lanca. Now of course, in these times, video conferencing is the new normal, and as great as it is, video conferencing does not allow users to actually test the application. And so, to allow us to have our app be accessible by others outside organizations such as beta testers or others, let's go ahead and deploy to the cloud. >> Sure we, can do this by employing a context. A Docker context, is a mechanism that we can use to target different platforms for deploying containers. The context we hold, information as the endpoint for the platform, and also how to authenticate to it. So I'm going to list the context that I have set locally. As you can see, I'm currently using the default context that is pointing to my local Docker engine. So all the commands that I have issued so far, we're targeting my local engine. Now, in order to deploy the application on a cloud. I have an account in the Azure Cloud, where I have no resource running currently, and I have created for this account, dedicated context that will hold the information on how to connect it to it. So now all I need to do, is to switch to this context, with Docker context use, and the name of my cloud context. So all the commands that I'm going to run, from now on, are going to target the cloud platform. So we can also check very, more simpler, in a simpler way we can check the running containers with Docker PS. So as we see no container is running in my cloud account. Now to deploy the application, all I need to do is to run a Docker compose up. And this will trigger the deployment of my application. >> Thanks Lanca. Now notice that Lanca did not have to move the composed file from Docker desktop to Azure. Notice you have to make any changes to the Docker compose file, and nor did she change any of the containers that she and I were using locally in our local environments. So the same composed file, same images, run locally and upon Azure without changes. While the app is deploying to Azure, let's highlight some of the features in Docker hub that helps teams with remote first collaboration. So first, here's our team's account where it (murmurs) and you can see the updated container sentences web that Lanca just pushed a couple of minutes ago. As far as collaboration, we can add members using their Docker ID or their email, and then we can organize them into different teams depending on their role in the application development process. So and then Lancae they're organized into different teams, we can assign them permissions, so that teams can work in parallel without stepping on each other's changes accidentally. For example, we'll give the engineering team full read, write access, whereas the product management team will go ahead and just give read only access. So this role based access controls, is just one of the many features in Docker hub that allows teams to collaboratively and quickly develop applications. Okay Lanca, how's our app doing? >> Our app has been successfully deployed to the cloud. So, we can easily check either the Azure portal to verify the containers running for it or simpler we can run a Docker PS again to get the list with the containers that have been deployed for it. In the output from the Docker PS, we can see an end point that we can use to access our application in the web browser. So we can see the application running in clouds. It's really up to date and now we can take this particular endpoint and share it within our organization such that anybody can have a look at it. >> That's cool Onka. We showed how we can deploy an app to the cloud in minutes and just two commands, and using commands that Docker users already know, thanks so much. In that sneak preview, you saw a team developing an app collaboratively, with a tool chain that includes Docker desktop and Docker hub. And simply by switching Docker context from their local environment to the cloud, deploy that app to the cloud, to Azure without leaving the command line using Docker commands they already know. And in doing so, really simplifying for development team, getting their app from code to cloud. And just as important, what you did not see, was a lot of complexity. You did not see cloud specific interfaces, user management or security. You did not see us having to provision and configure compute networking and storage resources in the cloud. And you did not see infrastructure specific application changes to either the composed file or the Docker images. And by simplifying a way that complexity, these new features help application DevOps teams, quickly iterate and get their ideas, their apps from code to cloud, and helping development teams, build share and run great applications, is what Docker is all about. A Docker is able to simplify for development teams getting their app from code to cloud quickly as a result of standards, products and ecosystem partners. It starts with open standards for applications and application artifacts, and active open source communities around those standards to ensure portability and choice. Then as you saw in the demo, the Docker experience delivered by Docker desktop and Docker hub, simplifies a team's collaborative development of applications, and together with ecosystem partners provides every stage of an application development tool chain. For example, deploying applications to the cloud in two commands. What you saw on the demo, well that's an extension of our strategic partnership with Microsoft, which we announced yesterday. And you can learn more about our partnership from Amanda Silver from Microsoft later today, right here at DockerCon. Another tool chain stage, the capability to scan applications for security and vulnerabilities, as a result of our partnership with Sneak, which we announced last week. You can learn more about that partnership from Peter McKay, CEO Sneak, again later today, right here at DockerCon. A third example, development team can automate the build of container images upon a simple get push, as a result of Docker hub integrations with GitHub and Alaska and Bitbucket. As a final example of Docker and the ecosystem helping teams quickly build applications, together with our ISV partners. We offer in Docker hub over 500 official and verified publisher images of ready to run Dockerized application components such as databases, load balancers, programming languages, and much more. Of course, none of this happens without people. And I would like to take a moment to thank four groups of people in particular. First, the Docker team, past and present. We've had a challenging 12 months including a restructuring and then a global pandemic, and yet their support for each other, and their passion for the product, this community and our customers has never been stronger. We think our community, Docker wouldn't be Docker without you, and whether you're one of the 50 Docker captains, they're almost 400 meetup organizers, the thousands of contributors and maintainers. Every day you show up, you give back, you teach new support. We thank our users, more than six and a half million developers who have built more than 7 million applications and are then sharing those applications through Docker hub at a rate of more than one and a half billion poles per week. Those apps are then run, are more than 44 million Docker engines. And finally, we thank our customers, the over 18,000 docker subscribers, both individual developers and development teams from startups to large organizations, 60% of which are outside the United States. And they spend every industry vertical, from media, to entertainment to manufacturing. healthcare and much more. Thank you. Now looking forward, given these unprecedented times, we would like to offer a challenge. While it would be easy to feel helpless and miss this global pandemic, the challenge is for us as individuals and as a community to instead see and grasp the tremendous opportunities before us to be forces for good. For starters, look no further than the pandemic itself, in the fight against this global disaster, applications and data are playing a critical role, and the Docker Community quickly recognize this and rose to the challenge. There are over 600 COVID-19 related publicly available projects on Docker hub today, from data processing to genome analytics to data visualization folding at home. The distributed computing project for simulating protein dynamics, is also available on Docker hub, and it uses spirit compute capacity to analyze COVID-19 proteins to aid in the design of new therapies. And right here at DockerCon, you can hear how Clemente Biondo and his company engineering in Gagne area Informatica are using Docker in the fight with COVID-19 in Italy every day. Now, in addition to fighting the pandemic directly, as a community, we also have an opportunity to bridge the disruption the pandemic is wreaking. It's impacting us at work and at home in every country around the world and every aspect of our lives. For example, many of you have a student at home, whose world is going to be very different when they returned to school. As employees, all of us have experienced the stresses from working from home as well as many of the benefits and in fact 75% of us say that going forward, we're going to continue to work from home at least occasionally. And of course one of the biggest disruptions has been job losses, over 35 million in the United States alone. And we know that's affected many of you. And yet your skills are in such demand and so important now more than ever. And that's why here at DockerCon, we want to try to do our part to help, and we're promoting this hashtag on Twitter, hashtag DockerCon jobs, where job seekers and those offering jobs can reach out to one another and connect. Now, pandemics disruption is accelerating the shift of more and more of our time, our priorities, our dollars from offline to online to hybrid, and even online only ways of living. We need to find new ways to collaborate, new approaches to engage customers, new modes for education and much more. And what is going to fill the needs created by this acceleration from offline, online? New applications. And it's this need, this demand for all these new applications that represents a great opportunity for the Docker community of developers. The world needs us, needs you developers now more than ever. So let's seize this moment. Let us in our teams, go build share and run great new applications. Thank you for joining today. And let's have a great DockerCon. >> Okay, welcome back to the DockerCon studio headquarters in your hosts, Jenny Burcio and myself John Furrier. u@farrier on Twitter. If you want to tweet me anything @DockerCon as well, share what you're thinking. Great keynote there from Scott CEO. Jenny, demo DockerCon jobs, some highlights there from Scott. Yeah, I love the intro. It's okay I'm about to do the keynote. The little green room comes on, makes it human. We're all trying to survive-- >> Let me answer the reality of what we are all doing with right now. I had to ask my kids to leave though or they would crash the whole stream but yes, we have a great community, a large community gather gathered here today, and we do want to take the opportunity for those that are looking for jobs, are hiring, to share with the hashtag DockerCon jobs. In addition, we want to support direct health care workers, and Bret Fisher and the captains will be running a all day charity stream on the captain's channel. Go there and you'll get the link to donate to directrelief.org which is a California based nonprofit, delivering and aid and supporting health care workers globally response to the COVID-19 crisis. >> Okay, if you jumping into the stream, I'm John Farrie with Jenny Webby, your hosts all day today throughout DockerCon. It's a packed house of great content. You have a main stream, theCUBE which is the mainstream that we'll be promoting a lot of cube interviews. But check out the 40 plus sessions underneath in the interactive calendar on dockercon.com site. Check it out, they're going to be live on a clock. So if you want to participate in real time in the chat, jump into your session on the track of your choice and participate with the folks in there chatting. If you miss it, it's going to go right on demand right after sort of all content will be immediately be available. So make sure you check it out. Docker selfie is a hashtag. Take a selfie, share it. Docker hashtag Docker jobs. If you're looking for a job or have openings, please share with the community and of course give us feedback on what you can do. We got James Governor, the keynote coming up next. He's with Red monk. Not afraid to share his opinion on open source on what companies should be doing, and also the evolution of this Cambrin explosion of apps that are going to be coming as we come out of this post pandemic world. A lot of people are thinking about this, the crisis and following through. So stay with us for more and more coverage. Jenny, favorite sessions on your mind for people to pay attention to that they should (murmurs)? >> I just want to address a few things that continue to come up in the chat sessions, especially breakout sessions after they play live and the speakers in chat with you, those go on demand, they are recorded, you will be able to access them. Also, if the screen is too small, there is the button to expand full screen, and different quality levels for the video that you can choose on your end. All the breakout sessions also have closed captioning, so please if you would like to read along, turn that on so you can, stay with the sessions. We have some great sessions, kicking off right at 10:00 a.m, getting started with Docker. We have a full track really in the how to enhance on that you should check out devs in action, hear what other people are doing and then of course our sponsors are delivering great content to you all day long. >> Tons of content. It's all available. They'll always be up always on at large scale. Thanks for watching. Now we got James Governor, the keynote. He's with Red Monk, the analyst firm and has been tracking open source for many generations. He's been doing amazing work. Watch his great keynote. I'm going to be interviewing him live right after. So stay with us and enjoy the rest of the day. We'll see you back shortly. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm James Governor, one of the co-founders of a company called RedMonk. We're an industry research firm focusing on developer led technology adoption. So that's I guess why Docker invited me to DockerCon 2020 to talk about some trends that we're seeing in the world of work and software development. So Monk Chips, that's who I am. I spent a lot of time on Twitter. It's a great research tool. It's a great way to find out what's going on with keep track of, as I say, there's people that we value so highly software developers, engineers and practitioners. So when I started talking to Docker about this event and it was pre Rhona, should we say, the idea of a crowd wasn't a scary thing, but today you see something like this, it makes you feel uncomfortable. This is not a place that I want to be. I'm pretty sure it's a place you don't want to be. And you know, to that end, I think it's interesting quote by Ellen Powell, she says, "Work from home is now just work" And we're going to see more and more of that. Organizations aren't feeling the same way they did about work before. Who all these people? Who is my cLancaern? So GitHub says has 50 million developers right on its network. Now, one of the things I think is most interesting, it's not that it has 50 million developers. Perhaps that's a proxy for number of developers worldwide. But quite frankly, a lot of those accounts, there's all kinds of people there. They're just Selena's. There are data engineers, there are data scientists, there are product managers, there were tech marketers. It's a big, big community and it goes way beyond just software developers itself. Frankly for me, I'd probably be saying there's more like 20 to 25 million developers worldwide, but GitHub knows a lot about the world of code. So what else do they know? One of the things they know is that world of code software and opensource, is becoming increasingly global. I get so excited about this stuff. The idea that there are these different software communities around the planet where we're seeing massive expansions in terms of things like open source. Great example is Nigeria. So Nigeria more than 200 million people, right? The energy there in terms of events, in terms of learning, in terms of teaching, in terms of the desire to code, the desire to launch businesses, desire to be part of a global software community is just so exciting. And you know, these, this sort of energy is not just in Nigeria, it's in other countries in Africa, it's happening in Egypt. It's happening around the world. This energy is something that's super interesting to me. We need to think about that. We've got global that we need to solve. And software is going to be a big part of that. At the moment, we can talk about other countries, but what about frankly the gender gap, the gender issue that, you know, from 1984 onwards, the number of women taking computer science degrees began to, not track but to create in comparison to what men were doing. The tech industry is way too male focused, there are men that are dominant, it's not welcoming, we haven't found ways to have those pathways and frankly to drive inclusion. And the women I know in tech, have to deal with the massively disproportionate amount of stress and things like online networks. But talking about online networks and talking about a better way of living, I was really excited by get up satellite recently, was a fantastic demo by Alison McMillan and she did a demo of a code spaces. So code spaces is Microsoft online ID, new platform that they've built. And online IDs, we're never quite sure, you know, plenty of people still out there just using the max. But, visual studio code has been a big success. And so this idea of moving to one online IDE, it's been around that for awhile. What they did was just make really tight integration. So you're in your GitHub repo and just be able to create a development environment with effectively one click, getting rid of all of the act shaving, making it super easy. And what I loved was it the demo, what Ali's like, yeah cause this is great. One of my kids are having a nap, I can just start (murmurs) and I don't have to sort out all the rest of it. And to me that was amazing. It was like productivity as inclusion. I'm here was a senior director at GitHub. They're doing this amazing work and then making this clear statement about being a parent. And I think that was fantastic. Because that's what, to me, importantly just working from home, which has been so challenging for so many of us, began to open up new possibilities, and frankly exciting possibilities. So Alley's also got a podcast parent-driven development, which I think is super important. Because this is about men and women rule in this together show parenting is a team sport, same as software development. And the idea that we should be thinking about, how to be more productive, is super important to me. So I want to talk a bit about developer culture and how it led to social media. Because you know, your social media, we're in this ad bomb stage now. It's TikTok, it's like exercise, people doing incredible back flips and stuff like that. Doing a bunch of dancing. We've had the world of sharing cat gifts, Facebook, we sort of see social media is I think a phenomenon in its own right. Whereas the me, I think it's interesting because it's its progenitors, where did it come from? So here's (murmurs) So 1971, one of the features in the emergency management information system, that he built, which it's topical, it was for medical tracking medical information as well, medical emergencies, included a bulletin board system. So that it could keep track of what people were doing on a team and make sure that they were collaborating effectively, boom! That was the start of something big, obviously. Another day I think is worth looking at 1983, Sorania Pullman, spanning tree protocol. So at DEC, they were very good at distributed systems. And the idea was that you can have a distributed system and so much of the internet working that we do today was based on radius work. And then it showed that basically, you could span out a huge network so that everyone could collaborate. That is incredibly exciting in terms of the trends, that I'm talking about. So then let's look at 1988, you've got IRC. IRC what developer has not used IRC, right. Well, I guess maybe some of the other ones might not have. But I don't know if we're post IRC yet, but (murmurs) at a finished university, really nailed it with IRC as a platform that people could communicate effectively with. And then we go into like 1991. So we've had IRC, we've had finished universities, doing a lot of really fantastic work about collaboration. And I don't think it was necessarily an accident that this is where the line is twofold, announced Linux. So Linux was a wonderfully packaged, idea in terms of we're going to take this Unix thing. And when I say package, what a package was the idea that we could collaborate on software. So, it may have just been the work of one person, but clearly what made it important, made it interesting, was finding a social networking pattern, for software development so that everybody could work on something at scale. That was really, I think, fundamental and foundational. Now I think it's important, We're going to talk about Linus, to talk about some things that are not good about software culture, not good about open source culture, not good about hacker culture. And that's where I'm going to talk about code of conduct. We have not been welcoming to new people. We got the acronyms, JFTI, We call people news, that's super unhelpful. We've got to find ways to be more welcoming and more self-sustaining in our communities, because otherwise communities will fail. And I'd like to thank everyone that has a code of conduct and has encouraged others to have codes of conduct. We need to have codes of conduct that are enforced to ensure that we have better diversity at our events. And that's what women, underrepresented minorities, all different kinds of people need to be well looked off to and be in safe and inclusive spaces. And that's the online events. But of course it's also for all of our activities offline. So Linus, as I say, I'm not the most charming of characters at all time, but he has done some amazing technology. So we got to like 2005 the creation of GIT. Not necessarily the distributed version control system that would win. But there was some interesting principles there, and they'd come out of the work that he had done in terms of trying to build and sustain the Linux code base. So it was very much based on experience. He had an itch that he needed to scratch and there was a community that was this building, this thing. So what was going to be the option, came up with Git foundational to another huge wave of social change, frankly get to logical awesome. April 20 April, 2008 GitHub, right? GiHub comes up, they've looked at Git, they've packaged it up, they found a way to make it consumable so the teams could use it and really begin to take advantage of the power of that distributed version control model. Now, ironically enough, of course they centralized the service in doing so. So we have a single point of failure on GitHub. But on the other hand, the notion of the poll request, the primitives that they established and made usable by people, that changed everything in terms of software development. I think another one that I'd really like to look at is Slack. So Slack is a huge success used by all different kinds of businesses. But it began specifically as a pivot from a company called Glitch. It was a game company and they still wanted, a tool internally that was better than IRC. So they built out something that later became Slack. So Slack 2014, is established as a company and basically it was this Slack fit software engineering. The focus on automation, the conversational aspects, the asynchronous aspects. It really pulled things together in a way that was interesting to software developers. And I think we've seen this pattern in the world, frankly, of the last few years. Software developers are influences. So Slack first used by the engineering teams, later used by everybody. And arguably you could say the same thing actually happened with Apple. Apple was mainstreamed by developers adopting that platform. Get to 2013, boom again, Solomon Hikes, Docker, right? So Docker was, I mean containers were not new, they were just super hard to use. People found it difficult technology, it was Easter Terek. It wasn't something that they could fully understand. Solomon did an incredible job of understanding how containers could fit into modern developer workflows. So if we think about immutable images, if we think about the ability to have everything required in the package where you are, it really tied into what people were trying to do with CICD, tied into microservices. And certainly the notion of sort of display usability Docker nailed that, and I guess from this conference, at least the rest is history. So I want to talk a little bit about, scratching the itch. And particularly what has become, I call it the developer authentic. So let's go into dark mode now. I've talked about developers laying out these foundations and frameworks that, the mainstream, frankly now my son, he's 14, he (murmurs) at me if I don't have dark mode on in an application. And it's this notion that developers, they have an aesthetic, it does get adopted I mean it's quite often jokey. One of the things we've seen in the really successful platforms like GitHub, Docker, NPM, let's look at GitHub. Let's look at over that Playfulness. I think was really interesting. And that changes the world of work, right? So we've got the world of work which can be buttoned up, which can be somewhat tight. I think both of those companies were really influential, in thinking that software development, which is a profession, it's also something that can and is fun. And I think about how can we make it more fun? How can we develop better applications together? Takes me to, if we think about Docker talking about build, share and run, for me the key word is share, because development has to be a team sport. It needs to be sharing. It needs to be kind and it needs to bring together people to do more effective work. Because that's what it's all about, doing effective work. If you think about zoom, it's a proxy for collaboration in terms of its value. So we've got all of these airlines and frankly, add up that their share that add up their total value. It's currently less than Zoom. So video conferencing has become so much of how we live now on a consumer basis. But certainly from a business to business perspective. I want to talk about how we live now. I want to think about like, what will come out all of this traumatic and it is incredibly traumatic time? I'd like to say I'm very privileged. I can work from home. So thank you to all the frontline workers that are out there that they're not in that position. But overall what I'm really thinking about, there's some things that will come out of this that will benefit us as a culture. Looking at cities like Paris, Milan, London, New York, putting a new cycling infrastructure, so that people can social distance and travel outside because they don't feel comfortable on public transport. I think sort of amazing widening pavements or we can't do that. All these cities have done it literally overnight. This sort of changes is exciting. And what does come off that like, oh there are some positive aspects of the current issues that we face. So I've got a conference or I've got a community that may and some of those, I've been working on. So Katie from HashiCorp and Carla from container solutions basically about, look, what will the world look like in developer relations? Can we have developer relations without the air miles? 'Cause developer advocates, they do too much travel ends up, you know, burning them out, develop relations. People don't like to say no. They may have bosses that say, you know, I was like, Oh that corporates went great. Now we're going to roll it out worldwide to 47 cities. That's stuff is terrible. It's terrible from a personal perspective, it's really terrible from an environmental perspective. We need to travel less. Virtual events are crushing it. Microsoft just at build, right? Normally that'd be just over 10,000 people, they had 245,000 plus registrations. 40,000 of them in the last day, right? Red Hat summit, 80,000 people, IBM think 90,000 people, GitHub Crushed it as well. Like this is a more inclusive way people can dip in. They can be from all around the world. I mentioned Nigeria and how fantastic it is. Very often Nigerian developers and advocates find it hard to get visas. Why should they be shut out of events? Events are going to start to become remote first because frankly, look at it, if you're turning in those kinds of numbers, and Microsoft was already doing great online events, but they absolutely nailed it. They're going to have to ask some serious questions about why everybody should get back on a plane again. So if you're going to do remote, you've got to be intentional about it. It's one thing I've learned some exciting about GitLab. GitLab's culture is amazing. Everything is documented, everything is public, everything is transparent. Think that really clear and if you look at their principles, everything, you can't have implicit collaboration models. Everything needs to be documented and explicit, so that anyone can work anywhere and they can still be part of the team. Remote first is where we're at now, Coinbase, Shopify, even Barkley says the not going to go back to having everybody in offices in the way they used to. This is a fundamental shift. And I think it's got significant implications for all industries, but definitely for software development. Here's the thing, the last 20 years were about distributed computing, microservices, the cloud, we've got pretty good at that. The next 20 years will be about distributed work. We can't have everybody living in San Francisco and London and Berlin. The talent is distributed, the talent is elsewhere. So how are we going to build tools? Who is going to scratch that itch to build tools to make them more effective? Who's building the next generation of apps, you are, thanks.

(slow music) >> From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020. The event happening digitally this year. We are bringing in Red Hat executives, customers and partners from where they are around the globe. And happy to welcome back to the program. One of our cube alumni. Robin Bergeron is the senior principal community architect with Ansible part of Red Hat. Robin, great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. So we've got the community coming together even while we're apart. >> Indeed. That's what we're good at. So, I'm glad to be back here again with you all. So, hello. >> All right. So, Robin, we caught up with you last at AnsibleFest of course Red Hat Summit. So much community activity that goes on. The Ansible, community is a big piece of summit even though they also have, the separate AnsibleFest. So just give us a little bit update what's happening in your world and in the community. >> Well. I hate to say it's a, "it's a big wide world" because it sounds very cliche, but the Ansible world is fairly big. I don't know if, let's see, we talked, lasted, AnsibleFest and that was in September in Atlanta, is that correct? >> Sounds right. Yep. >> I believe so. So right around that time was when GitHub released their annual list of, they have a report called the Octoverse they publish every year, in conjunction with their annual event. And one of their metrics they have on that list is, most active projects. So, we clocked in at the number ninth most active project on Github this past year. And that's out of, I've lost count of github, like number of projects. It's not quite the, United States national debt status, but it's a, like a hundred million repositories or something like that. So we're the number nine most active repository this year. And I believe we are one of two projects who's been on that list every year since 2016 I want to say. So, yeah, we're at 5900 contributors right now. So it's, all over the globe. A lot of people keeping us very busy. I guess that and fact it's so busy and we talked about collections a bit when we were at AnsibleFest this past year and it's been a thing that we've been talking about continuously in Ansible community and also, as part of Red Hats product line for a while and we've actually now gotten to the point of sort of splitting out the Ansible repository. Ansible is going to continue to be the, you a car and you look under the engine and there's like the things that make the car run. >> Ansible base, separate from the windshield wipers and all the ad-ons and all the cool stuff that you actually, want to get when you get a car. And that stuff is actually getting split out into Ansible collections that we'll have or repository that's actually more managed by the community, which will empower them to be able to make more decisions for us to be able to get things done, more rapidly. Cause in the past it's always been a really a tug of war between, work and github have always been very respectful about, how the balances between community and product because obviously without a community you don't have a product. And this is a obviously a method that Red Hat has sort of nailed down. I guess IBM really liked the idea. So here we are. But we're really looking forward to, right now we've got a handful of contributors who are adding new modules into this new repo. But, they're also helping us work out all the kinks in the contributor process and how it works that way. Once we opened for business, since we've got several thousand contributors, we don't say, open for business and then have everybody comes running into a glass wall like it and then all on the floor, right? We want the doors to be open. We want the, registers so to speak to be processing things. We want, all the box to be working, all of the, all of the magic to be happening just as it is, as it has in past. But, this time with a little bit more empowerment to the community, that's on a work progress for it was like forever, but, nine months, and here in the next few weeks that will be open for business and we're hoping that, by the time the AnsibleFest rolls around, that will be part of the two, part and parcel to the 2.10 release. And, we're hoping that, even though under the hood for contributors, that's changed. We believe we'll be very transparent brand eaters, which has been one of the most important things for us because, we don't like to break people. That's, >> yeah, >> {Robin] Glad yeah >> Absolutely Robin. So it was one of the key things a announced at a AnsibleFest last year. Anybody that knows the software world is the traditional release train. Get on that train. Got to make sure you get your feature in there. But for a solution like Ansible, which as you said, has a lot of partners and it's a very big ecosystem. If you have to worry about how much stuff do I get shoved into one release, it's a little bit limiting. So you break those pieces up more like the, containers, that go on the train and you can make sure that you're adding and, doing the various pieces as they go. So maybe >> Yeah >> not the perfect analogy. >> Yeah. >> But very important so, Robin, as you've been going through this, I'm wondering, what feedback are you getting from the contributors there? and how about as you said, very active community. We know if anybody you know, says something, you got, the crowd and the wisdom coming in and giving you ideas. But, how do you balance that? You're not going to have everybody be happy about every decision, but making sure that the ultimate release train, does the job and delivers the overall solution. >> Yes. What color are we going to paint? Paint our bike shed. Right? Like the yak for circling. So it's, I don't want to to say it's been mixed, it's, you know, we, I can, I compare and contrast this, one of my, previous roles was being the newer project leader, right. And, which is, as we know the upstream, for Red Hat enterprise Linux, and its some of the, Linux and, a lot of the Linux distributions have been around for forever. Back when there were like, I don't know. 10, 15 opensource projects that anybody at all, could contribute to. Now as we can see looking on, github and many other places get lab, open dev. There's a, you name it, there's a gazillion opensource projects out there. People aren't always as attached to, I don't want to say attached, coz that sounds, terrible, but open source has become such a norm people are just very used to, there's something wrong. I'm going to submit it, I'm going to hope it gets accepted, but I'm going to move on with my life because I also have all these other places that I can also contribute, right. That said, we do have, a significant number of compute of contributors who have been with us back since Ansible started. Some of those folks go back with us to Fidor days, on Linux days on and on and on. Some of them, some folks I have concerns, they do like that this is the opportunity to give them more empowerment to figure out better ways to run the, contributor process. I think the number one thing that everybody's been concerned about is what diseases your experience going to be. And I think that's a testament to, just the power of our community is that, people aren't just concerned about how am I going to get my stuff in and your stuff in and like the tug of war of like, is one person can get something else in before someone else. Everybody's very concerned about is this going to still work for the end users? Is this going to disrupt them? Because it's a change under hood. Are they going to have to change all their playbooks and all of their, rules and everything that they have. And right now the goal is, it should be transparent. Anything that you have written right now, you should continue work, you shouldn't notice. Once we get your 3.O our goal is to ramp people up into harnessing the power of collections. But first we need to get the collections, infrastructure in place, before we get in. Start giving them to artists the power of collections. You can't just flip the switch and be like, hi . So it used to be this way, now we have collections and now you've got to redo everything, right. Because that's-- you still have the opportunity because it's open source. We'll have this window where we can still find all the bugs and get that re rapid feedback, which means, once we roll out, Red Hat Ansible automation platform, the next version. I'm not going to say an AnsibleFest. That would be shocking, right? We never do announcements at events. But, whenever that product comes out, we want to make sure, that power of open source and, having that rapid feedback loop, ensures that, what we end up, we'll bring to customers, winds up being solid, but I believe it will be very, very solid for contributors because or, and, a community. There's, because, a significant number of our contributors are community users and they have that in their own interest in mind. And we've seen that not just from, I'm a community user at a university, but all of our partners are actually participating in the community as well. And there, just painting and chatting and we had a, we had planned to have a European as well contributor summit, which is a thing we normally run in combination or the day before AnsibleFest. and we had planned that for Sweden. I was so excited. I was going to go to Gothenburg. I hear it's a charming little town, except, when we are all stuck in, the a world that we are in currently. so we ran that virtually and a lot of our longterm contributors are actually from Europe. So that was really exciting except for me, cause I had to get up 8 Am but it was still nice to see them all. So we had, 50 some odd folks pop in over the course of, that day. And we talked through elections and debated and, got some demos from folks. Had some folks talk through some specific collections, folks talking about AWS and some of the networking things. So, yeah it was nice to see everyone. I was sad that it wasn't in Gothenburg. But it is what it is. I'm going to roll. >> So Robin, I think back to 2019 an automation, was right at the top of a hot topics. When I talk to practitioners out there, many conferences I went to, not just of course Ansible test, which focus on it, but many other shows and events. Well when you talk to people about key initiatives, its in a really leveraging automation, something that I've heard talked about my entire career, but really it feels like the last painful of years and people are much more serious about it. You know, you referenced the times that we live in right now, we're unprecedented global pandemics. So I'm not saying that, somebody, everybody all of a sudden woke up and say, Oh my gosh, I have to work from home and I need to be smarter. Let me finally use this automation that I've been hearing about all these years. But why don't you bring us into, what is happening today, what you are hearing customers, because automation obviously is a critical piece of what everybody is doing and probably just, shines a light on it even more. Now that we need to make sure that people are being efficient and still being able to deal with their lives while everything else is going on. >> Yeah. It's interesting because some of is, as well as used. Yeah, there's actually a, there's the dependency graph that you can look at on github and it will tell you how many other things in github are actually depending on the Ansible. It's, I can't even remember the number. It's a very large number, like tens of thousands of things as I recall. Disclaimer, my memory is terrible sometimes. I believe it was in the tens of thousands of things. Lots of people use Ansible and it's almost like probably not quite as popular as, the uses Docker container to get started, but, venture to guess it might be a number to that. Type this Ansible thing and this thing will magically come up. Right. For folks that are, in a traditional IT department, just trying to get along, day to day right now who are, they're like me. They're at home, they're with their spouse, they're sharing an office. They're also homeschooling their kids if they got out of bed. Hopefully we all have enough bandwidth. For those folks it's, I'm just glad that I continue to have this Ansible thing, they're using Ansible tower, they're glad that they can still manage to figure out how to collaborate their coworkers in that type of environment. For all the folks out there who are doing, research or trying to set up any type of infrastructure anywhere to related to this, I don't care if it's a, grocery store or you're a research laboratory, whatever it is. Last thing you want to do is spend five hours, be like, oh God okay, let me get out my manual. Where did I, it's hey, there's an Ansible. Excellent, I can type this Ansible thing in. And if for some reason it gets hung up. We have folks on IRC, we have, there's folks on stack overflow . There folks literally everywhere. You can ask a question on Twitter and It's a Pretty large, friendly, global community of people who have plenty of answers. And that's, I can't say we're like, hey, we solved everything, but we got all the >> stuff out of the way so that people can actually solve all of their, they can get down to what's actually important for them. And so that, that's always been one of the most redeeming things about Ansible that it's, for me, it's, the thing that I work on is, it's easy and it helps people solve their problems and gets all there, stuff out of the way so that they can concentrate on what's actually important to them. So I like to think, it's most important to them. And I know it is, but it's interesting seeing how things change, as people are like, are you going to teach a bunch of people Ansible now? And it's like, well, if they're in need of a job, there are a lot of online resources for that. But if they're just trying to get through their job, like everybody's sort of in a don't rock the boat position. Like if I can get a little bit ahead, that's cool. If I've already got a bunch of stuff automated Yes. That's one less thing that I have to worry about right now and that's all we can really hope for at this moment. >> Yeah, great stuff Robin. One of the high point always is seeing, the value and support of the community and as you said, it's something that we definitely see highlighted up out there. All right, Robyn Bergeron, greatest as always to catch up with you. Thank you so much. I'm sure you know so many community activities that people will be able to participate in. This week at Red Hat Summit, even though we're, all doing it remotely, >> and the >> yeah >> challenges there. >> Glad I, great uni central area city. You can come on, come on by and see all of the, various Red Hat open source communities doing their thing. >> All right, watch lots more coverage from Red Hat Summit coming at you. I'm Stu Miniman and always, thank you for watching, the cube (slow music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone and welcome to the special Cube remote conversation. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE. We're here in our Palo Alto studio. We do all of our digital events. We do all of our content, original content here in studio. Of course, we can reach anyone around the world through our remote technology. And we like to bring experts in, to talk about some of the cutting edge issues and one of the most important things that I've been really doing a lot of thinking on lately and putting it into practice is, the role of individuals in groups in digital and since we're using software, this is becoming a really critical dynamic for the concept of engagement. Which is the holy grail of digital marketing. And now with the Coronavirus you're going to see a lot of events being canceled. You're going to see new norms being formed around how people engage, how they bond and ultimately, how they get work done. So we got a great guest J Metz, who has got a Ph.D in Communications Technology. Dr. Jay Metz, thank you for taking the time to jump on our remote interview. >> Hello. >> So I got to ask you, you know, we were talking before you came on you've got your doctorate and going back thirty years ago, you were doing a lot of pioneering work with others in academic circles around group behavior, software and you know, for us old guys but you rolled back the clock back then, you're talking message groups, you're talking about, you know, online tech systems. But the world is pretty similar evolved evolution in terms of those same concepts. Now more than ever, you're seeing Facebook breaking democracy, the government wants to try and create an e-democracy model. How do you do voting? All these things now are cutting edge issues and certainly with the Coronavirus, you're looking at people wanting to take content and posting it on the internet. It sounds so easy but it's now, it's going to be different. So, I got to ask you, you know, how do you see this world because you've done a lot of thinking on this? You know networks, you know technology and digital. How do you see the role of content and people and groups forming on the internet? >> Well I think that the role of technology hasn't really changed all that much when it comes to slowest moving piece, which is human nature. When we were, as you pointed out we were talking about this a long time ago way back before there were pretty pictures to look at on computers, you know. We had, we had IRC Chat, we had Bitnet Relay, we had Minitel in France, we've had different places had different forms of communicating through the use of computer. And at the time, they were really curious as to what was going to wind up happening. Were you going to get, you know, a bunch of freaks running things? Or are you going to get people you know, effectively isolated from society? All these questions that we're kind of asking nowadays. We still had them back then and we don't have a new answer. The same problem exists, even if there are prettier pictures to look at on the screen. >> David Vellante put and I put out a post, he actually did an interview, an article, where we talk about digital events and his advice was, "Don't just think about the software, "think about the outcome." So I have to ask you, when you start looking at digital interactions and human behavior, you're looking at stuff from whether it's visualization, Sigchi did a ton of work going back to the 80s to today. You're seeing, you're getting group theory coming in. The outcome is just people either getting something done, finding what they're looking for, making new friends and connecting. Digital is not just the software, there's a human component. Can you share your view about you know, the role of engagement, how content in groups, group social formation, social capital, social organizations can emerge from this new dynamic that is going to be forced upon us as we start thinking about virtual and work remotely and everything else. >> Well, I always felt that engagement was sort of a misnomer, to be honest. I always felt that engagement really had to do with the way that participation was counted. And participation is not necessarily an indication of how closely somebody feels to somebody else. How much of a part of the group they actually feel. And we start to look at group dynamics, as we start to look at the communication part, we look at the actual points on the graph as individual elements of participation, as if that's a good thing or tells us something. It doesn't tell us where the vector spin is going, right? Is it going in a positive way? Is it going in a negative way? And the reality as I've been able to find out over the last several decades and I can't believe I said that out loud. But the reality over time and this was always back to you know, before the radio even, I mean. This is a common theme in human nature. How people form groups through the use of technology is relatively consistent. And it has to go through the nature of the medium as it pertains to making our conversations either delayed by time or increased by time. So that synchronicity makes a huge difference as to what we call engagement and what kind of meaning we can apply to it. >> I want to get with you on asynchronous versus synchronous. Now that's an important concept and you know, the cloud native technologies are all asynchronous and horizontally scalable. These are the benefits of large scale systems now. But i get to your point about participation, you mentioned about engagement. Conventional wisdom says that, "Hey I need a lot of "people in the funnel. "I want more people, "what are the numbers? "We have a million views?." You're kind of saying it's kind of going the other way. That's actually not good engagement in digital or in these kind of group formations. Can you explain that? >> Well I mean, we just don't know. So when I was, when I was doing way back when I was doing my dissertation, I thought the same thing. I thought that if I could find out how much somebody participated in a group, I would be able to determine how closely affiliated they feel to that group. And it turns out, that's just not the case. What I found out especially in the short term, was the participation inside of a group usually was indicating that they disagree with the group, not agree. So if you only stop there, you won't get the full story. And what we'll find out is over time, there is an evolutionary approach to this, more about a fractal way of recursively coming in and an iterative approach to being part of a group, bringing yourself into it, letting the group accept you, that kind of a thing. And it simply isn't true that because I have X number of views or this level of rewatches on my videos, that that means that they were either each participating or even affiliated with what I got. Are they part of my group or not? I can't tell simply by the number of views. That's what I mean. >> Yeah, great great stuff. I want to get your thoughts on, and we, I saw your comments on my LinkedIn post, I just posted on my plane ride back from Washington, D.C. But I want to get your reaction to a couple edits here. So I wrote, "In the age of digitals, "not the individual that makes a change, "it's the group or mob. "Often groups are where "individuals voices are processed, "refined, and validated as a collective. "And then, "New social constructs "emerge in digital, "where we interact as "individuals within groups." With digital now pervasive, and certainly everyone working at home, this is going to be highlighted a lot. Can you comment and your reaction to those statements? What's your thoughts? >> Well think about the way we start conversations digitally versus in person, right? So, our idea and this goes to what you said you want to get to regarding synchronicity. So, when we have conversations in a group, in a face to face environment, it is a lot more dynamic, it is a lot more chaotic. There's a lot more complexity and the adaptive system of the group emerges in it's own particular pattern. That same adaptive system does exist inside of the digital world but it is highly regulated. It's regulated by the kind of software and platform that we use. So we will get different types of that group evolution based upon what the actual software will allow us to do. Just like Twitter has a different engagement level. And I use that in a sense of how we interact. It has a different interaction level than the way LinkedIn does. So for example, I could not have responded to you on LinkedIn the way we did because you couldn't have even posted the message on Twitter the way you did on LinkedIn. And the way that we handle the individualism is going to be handled in such a way that we have a more paced turn taking approach to doing things. So, it's not going to be a complete collective and it's not going to be complete individualistic approach depending upon which platform we're using for communication. >> Yeah, one of the beautiful things about the internet is you've seen the evolution, there has been pros and cons. A lot of value has been created. You got the website, you can self-serve yourself. Social networks, you meet some friends, you get some connections. But as we start to see more digital connection, people being connected together or individually if you will, the progression of learning has been somewhat nonlinear. You go to Google type something in, you pop to a webpage or you and I see each other on Twitter, I jump into Discord, talk to my gaming friends, next thing I'm on LinkedIn. I'm kind of popping around in a very nonlinear way. Creates for a very asynchronous kind of consumption or communication pattern. Could you talk about the difference between or the value or the pros and cons between asynchronous communication and consumption of that content and synchronous. >> Well, I think that ultimately, the concept of time is an underrated approach to evaluating how successful something is or is not. So, the time between the way that we communicate and our expectations of it makes a huge difference. If I were to have a, even a slice of a five second delay between your question and my answer, like we are doing some sort of satellite messaging, it would be very disruptive to our flow, right? We would not be able to bond in quite a way. And yet, if I write something that's five seconds after you posted, wow, that's amazing, right? So, our expectations for how time plays a role in the development of our relationship makes a huge difference. But you also sort of talking about the idea of multitasking and the content switching that we do from place to place whether it be gaming in Discord and whether it be in storage or it's, you know, my background or whether it be networking or whether it be medicine or whatever the concept that we have to involve, that probability to content switch even with the same people in the room, the "digital room", that still winds up being a place inside of our head because we've conceptualized those time elements quite differently based upon where we're actually having the conversation. And so ultimately, at the very end of the day, it's a complex system that we tend to forget that we're even doing naturally. We just, we just do. >> It's interesting. You may talk earlier about adaptive and what not. I was talking with a friend this past weekend, we're talking about the difference in organism and a mechanism. You know, organisms are self healing, they repair. You don't have, if people act as a group, there's kind of that, kind of group feel like a social organism versus a mechanism. Software today feels like a mechanism. I got a chat window open, you can't see me. You're like "Hey you're there?", and I'm like, I could be making coffee, doing whatever. I'm not really present. So, you start to see what organism and mechanism concepts and then the notion of presence and commitment. If I'm face to face, that's value and time matters, and presence matters. I'm looking over there, talking to you. So presence and commitment are also concepts. So talk about those two things. You got being an organism, a social organism, social being versus a mechanism, it's like a software and then, you know, the commitment and presence dynamic. What's your view of those things? >> So you brought up the idea of linearity earlier and non-linearity. And when you look at something called, Complex Adaptive Systems, we take very static rules and they don't have to be a lot of rules, just a couple rules and just like the mechanisms that you're talking about. They can be very simple but, you know, in a stasis way and the human nature is to work around it. So our organistic, (laughs), you know what I mean. >> Yeah. >> That element that we bring to the table, tends to wind up working within that rule set or without that rule set and depending on what our particular needs are. But what happens in that parlance is called emergence. In other words, the process is called, autopoiesis, a technical term that means a pattern self-emerges from the mixture of a static mechanical element, those rules of communication and the way that we dynamically as organisms tend to work within and without those rules. And a pattern will emerge as a result. >> I want to get your thoughts on a digital event building out with the next generation kind of constructs for, how people can actually use the digital network, Zoom, Keynotes, Breakouts and then the other community aspect of it. But I want to get your thoughts on the role within groups, online groups. One is a group that self forms, has roles and responsibilities, there's decision making, there's group interaction, there's a dynamic kind of organism feel to it. Versus a mob, people just kind of gather up, grass roots Where it's just more free and loose. Can you talk about how you see those differences 'cuz you, you know, people could just gather publicly and chat. It could be self governed in some way but there's no real roles, no decision making, it's more mob like. And then, social constructs around decision making and group formation and decision making. >> In reality, it doesn't, if all things were being equal in terms of amount of time they had spent, the human element of forming groups does not change. The social development of groups has been something that's been studied since the 1840s in academia. And when you look back at that, those as basic ground rules of how groups form, they really haven't changed all that much. The facilitation of that may have changed. But have you ever gone to a group where the first meeting will have all whole bunch of people show up, and the second, people a lot less and by the third time it's already dead? You know, that game of life that we're familiar with with the whole, you know, software program, well that's very true. That's a good metaphor for the way that humans form groups in the first place. Just because it doesn't necessarily form in a digital way, it doesn't mean that was the nature of that particular way. It means that, that particular group itself, that participation, that affiliation, didn't happen in the timeframe necessary to keep it going. And I really think and I really believe that understanding the nature of the people involved, the marriage with the content that they are for and the medium that provides that facilitation is what will provide the idea of whether or not the entire group digital or other wise lives or dies. >> That's great insight J. I really appreciate that. You know, final question on this whole digital shift. The Coronavirus is forcing people to stay at home, events are being canceled. And you've been following theCUBE, you kind of know what SiliconANGLE and theCUBE have been doing. We would go to events where people would be there, physical spaces, and we would interview people in our authentic way and face to face and bond and but gather the data from the guests and distribute it digitally to our audiences. We've been doing that for 10 years. Now what's interesting though is the worlds now changed. There's no more venue. But the people running these events still want to take content value but now they got to digitally distribute it to where the people are in digital streams or digital space. Okay, or cyber space. So, this has been a real challenge for us people that are used to relying on the venue to handle a lot of the structural things. Decisions, stage, boom, breakouts, areas for hallway tracks, happy hour, networking. So, the venue handled all that. Now you have a flip of the script where it's still content value but the distribution to digital is chaotic and distributed. There's a group challenge, right? So, the question I have for you based on your expertise, how should people be thinking about the complexity to do a digital event 'cuz you got to have content, you have a digital stage, you need distribution, but you need to have the humans involved because they are the consumers and the actors. What your view of this and if we run a team together trying to figure this out, what we would say to people to help them along? >> I think, so there's a short game and there's long game here. And the long game is that, there are elements to digital forms of communication in asynchronous method just to use the terminology we've been doing. There are realities that cannot be met, the same way that you met in a face to face. And those are ages ago they used to be called, social context cues. But effectively the richness of a face to face just simply cannot be held in an asynchronous format for long. So, the long term game here, the long game is that, this is temporary setback because you still need to be able to do things that you can't normally do just through you know, watch pre-recorded content. Even if it winds up being a recorded content that will be a pre-recorded at some point. You're watching it live, you're still going to view it that way, right? If I watch a webinar live, hell, I have produced dozens and dozens of these things. I'm always aware that this is basically being viewed as if it were a, you know, pre-recorded content. On the short term now to answer your question, what has to happen is that, we have to look at a multi-pronged communication approach. How do I get that synchronicity of communication? How do I get people to feel like they've been heard? That's the problem. When your in a face to face situation in conferences you know you've been heard. In the hallways, in the walkways you would stand up and you would do a question. You know that. That's is one of the biggest problems we have to solve digitally because ultimately, I'm broadcasting something to you and it's a very different communication style than if we're having a interpersonal communication. >> Yeah, and you know one of the things over the years with the internet, the content acquisition which was the primary use case of an event. You go and learn. That can be done online. So, we've seen the progression of the networking peaks, the face to face value, meeting new people. My friends is there, I haven't seen him in a while. Or we work remotely and we see each other and we have beers together or we're bonding. So, is that's just really hard to replicate in software. It really really is. It can be a big challenge. >> Oh, without question. I mean, but at the same time think about reality of how much time you spend with people that you don't normally spend time with at the conferences. Entire friendships had been based on 30 minute conversations spread out over three conferences, right? I mean, you'll go and you'll dinner with one group of people, one conference and then you won't see them again for another three conferences. You go back to that fourth conference and, "Hey we're back "to where we left off "and we're good friends and "that'll never really change." So, we're able to kind of fill in the blanks mentally and emotionally in that sense. The question is, can we do that through the use of a digital technology or to your other point that you mentioned earlier, do other forms whether it be the politics that come out on Twitter or the you know, the other groups we're associated with, but they are worthy, God help us the cancel culture that's coming up. Will that affect everything digitally, that you can skip over when you're actually in a face to face situation. Those are questions that I don't have an answer to. >> Yeah I mean, we're looking at it hard. We think content is key, content value. And again, timing is critical. I like your perspective on timing. There's a time series involved. And there's asynchronous, right? So, it being there. You know, content with, you know, people who are heard or participating, contribution, forming bonds, and interacting. The digital venue that has to facilitate a community loop in, right? So, it's a really complicated but new emerging trend. We're really watching this closely and we really appreciate your insight. Thanks for taking the time. >> My best. >> J Metz, Dr. J Metz here, helping me unpack and sitting back in looking at the philosophy but really the practice of 30 years of internet and online research and sociology around the role of people, individuals in context to groups, this is a big discussion as people start to figure out and operationalize what is the right mix for digital and virtual with physical of spaces. And certainly, we think events will come back soon. But J, thanks for giving us the time and we'll talk to you later. >> Thanks for the invite. >> I'm John Furrier here at theCUBE studios for remote interview with Dr. J Metz talking about the social theory around digital groups. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>live from Atlanta, Georgia. It's the Q covering answerable best 2019. Brought to you by Red hat. >>Welcome back, everyone to the Cube. Live coverage in Atlanta, Georgia for answerable fest. This is Red Hats Event where all the practices come together. The community to talk about automation anywhere. John Kerry with my coast to Minutemen, our next two guests arrive. And Bergeron, principal community architect for answerable now Red Hat and Greg Dankers Berg, senior director, Community Ansel's. Well, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. >>Okay, So we were talking before camera that you guys had. This is a two day event. We're covering the Cube. You guys have an awful fast, but you got your community day yesterday. The day before the people came in early. The core community heard great things about it. Love to get an update. Could you share just what happened yesterday? And then we'll get in some of the community. Sure. >>We s o uh, for all of our answer professed for a while now we've started them with ah, community contributor conference. And the goal of that conference is to get together. Ah, lot of the people we work with online right people we see is IRC nicks or get hub handles rights to get them together in the same room. Ah, have them interact with, uh, with core members of our team. Uh, and that's where we really do, uh, make a lot of decisions about how we're gonna be going forward, get really direct feedback from some of our key contributors about the decisions were making The things were thinking about, uh, with the goal of, you know, involving our community deeply in a lot of decisions we make, that's >>a working session, meets social, get together. That's >>right, Several working sessions and then, you know, drinks afterward for those who want the drinks and just hang out time that >>way. Drinks and their last night was really good. I got the end of it. I missed the session, but >>they have the peaches, peaches, it on the >>table. That was good. But this is the dynamic community. This is one things we notice here. Not a seat open in the house on the keynote Skinny Ramon Lee, active participant base from this organic as well Be now going mainstream. How >>you >>guys handling it, how you guys ride in this way? Because certainly you certainly do. The communities which is great for feedback get from the community. But as you have the commercial eyes open sores and answerable, it's a tough task. >>Well, I'd like to think part of it is, I guess maybe it's not our first rodeo. Is that what we'd say? I mean, yeah, uh, for Ansel. I worked at ELASTICSEARCH, uh, doing community stuff. Before that, I worked at Red Hat. It was a fedora. Project leader, number five. And you were Fedora project Leader. What number was that? Number one depends >>on how you count, but >>you're the You're the one that got us to be able to call it having a federal project leader. So I sort of was number one. So we've been dealing with this stuff for a really long time. It's different in Anselm that, you know, unlike a lot of, you know, holds old school things like fedora. You know, a lot of this stuff is newer and part of the reason it's really important for us to get You know, some of these folks here to talk to us in person is that you know especially. And you saw my keynote this morning where they talked about we talked about modularity. Lot of these folks are really just focused on. They're one little bit and they don't always have is much time. People are working in lots of open source projects now, right, and it's hard to pay deep attention to every single little thing all the time. So this gives them a day of in case you missed it. Here's the deep, dark dive into everything that you know we're planning or thinking about, and they really are. You know, people who are managing those smaller parts all around answerable, really are some of our best feedback loops, right? Because they're people who probably wrote that model because they're using it every single day and their hard core Ansel users. But they also understand how to participate in community so we can get those people actually talking with the rest of us who a lot of us used to be so sad. Men's. I used to be a sis admin, lots of us. You know. A lot of our employees actually just got into wanting to work on Ansel because they loved using it so much of their jobs. And when you're not, actually, since admitting every day, you you lose a little bit of >>the front lines with the truth of what's around. Truth is right there >>and putting all these people together in room make sure that they all also, you know, when you have to look at someone in the eye and tell them news that they might not like you have a different level of empathy and you approach it a little bit differently than you may on the Internet. So, >>Robin So I lived in your keynote this morning. You talked about answerable. First commit was only back in 2012. So that simplicity of that modularity and the learnings from where open source had been in the past Yes, they're a little bit, you know, what could answerable do, being a relatively young project that it might not have been able to dio if it had a couple of decades of history? >>Maybe Greg should tell the story about the funk project >>way. There was a There was a project, a tread hat that we started in 2007 in a coffee shop in Chapel Hill, North Carolina is Ah, myself and Michael the Han and Seth the doll on entry likens Who still works with this with us? A danceable Ah, and we we put together Ah, an idea with all the same underpinnings, right? Ah, highly modular automation tool We debated at the time whether it should be based on SSL or SS H for funk. We chose SSL Ah, and you know, after watching that grow to a certain point and then stagnates and it being inside of red Hat where, you know, there were a lot of other business pressures, things like that. We learned a lot from that experience and we were able to take that experience. And then in 2012 there there's the open source community was a little different. Open source was more acceptable. Get Hubbell was becoming a common plat platform for open source project hosting. And so a lot of things came together in a short pier Time All that experience, although, >>and also market conditions, agenda market conditions in 2007 Cloud was sort of a weird thing that not really everyone was doing 2012 rolls around. Everyone has these cloud images and they need to figure out how to get something in it. Um, and it turns out that Hansel's a really great way to actually do that. And, you know, even if we had picked SS H back in the beginning, I don't know, you know, not have had time projects grow to a certain point. And I could point a lots of projects that were just It's a shame they were so ahead of their time. And because of that, you know, >>timing is everything with the key. I think now what I've always admired about the simplicity is automation requires that the abstract, the way, the complexities and so I think you bring a cloud that brings up more complexity, more use cases for some of the underlying paintings of the plumbing. And this is always gonna This is a moving train that's never going to stop. What was the feedback from the community this year around? As you guys get into some of these analytical capabilities, so the new features have a platform flair to it. It's a platform you guys announced answerable automation platform that implies that enables some value. >>You know, I >>think in >>a way. We've always been a platform, right, because platform is a set of small rules and then modules that attached to it. It's about how that grows, right? And, uh, traditionally, we've had a batteries included model where every module and plug in was built to go into answerable Boy, that got really big bright and >>we like to hear it. I don't even know how many I keep say, I'll >>say 2000. Then it'll be 3000 say 3000 >>something else, a lot of content. And it's, you know, in the beginning, it was I can't imagine this ever being more than 202 150 batteries included, and at some point, you know, it's like, Whoa, yeah, taking care of this and making sure it all works together all the time gets >>You guys have done a great You guys have done a great job with community, and one of the things that you met with Cloud is as more use cases come, scale becomes a big question, and there's real business benefits now, so open source has become part of the business. People talk about business, models will open source. You guys know that you've been part of that 28 years of history with Lennox. But now you're seeing Dev Ops, which is you'll go back to 78 2009 10 time frame The only the purest we're talking Dev ops. At that time, Infrastructures Co was being kicked around. We certainly been covering the cubes is 2010 on that? But now, in mainstream enterprise, it seems like the commercialization and operational izing of Dev ops is here. You guys have a proof point in your own community. People talk about culture, about relationships. We have one guest on time, but they're now friends with the other guy group dowels. So you stay. The collaboration is now becoming a big part of it because of the playbook because of the of these these instances. So talk about that dynamic of operational izing the Dev Ops movement for Enterprise. >>All right, so I remember Ah, an example at one of the first answer professed I ever went thio There were there were a few before I came on board. Ah, but it was I >>think it was >>the 1st 1 I came to when I was about to make the jump from my previous company, and I was just There is a visitor and a friend of the team, and there was an adman who talked to me and said, For the first time, I have this thing, this playbook, that I can write and that I can hand to my manager and say this is what we're going to D'oh! Right? And so there was this artifact that allowed for a bridging between different parts of the organization. That was the simplicity of that playbook that was human readable, that he could show to his boss or to someone else in the organ that they could agree on. And suddenly there was this sort of a document that was a mechanism for collaboration that everyone could understand buy into that hadn't really existed before. Answerable existed after me. That was one of the many, you know, flip of the light moments where I was like, Oh, wow, maybe we have something >>really big. There were plenty of other infrastructures, code things that you could hand to someone. But, you know, for a lot of people, it's like I don't speak that language right? That's why we like to say like Ansel sort of this universal automation language, right? Like everybody can read it. You don't have to be a rocket scientist. Uh, it's, you know, great for your exact example, right? I'm showing this to my manager and saying This is the order of operations and you don't have to be a genius to read it because it's really, really readable >>connecting system which connects people >>right. It's fascinating to May is there was this whole wave of enterprise collaboration tools that the enterprise would try to push down and force people to collaborate. But here is a technology tool that from the ground up, is getting people to do that collaboration. And they want to do it. And it's helping bury some >>of those walls. And it's interesting you mention that I'm sure that something like slack is a thing that falls into that category. And they've built around making sure that the 20 billion people inside a company all sign up until somebody in the I T departments like, What do you mean? These random people are just everyone's using it. No one saving it isn't secure, and they all freak out, and, um, well, I mean, this is sort of, you know, everybody tells her friend about Ansel and they go, Oh, right, Tool. That's gonna save the world Number 22 0 wait, actually, yeah. No, this is This actually is pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get started. >>Well, you know, sometimes the better mouse trap will always drive people to that solution. You guys have proven that organic. What's interesting to me is not only does it keep win on capabilities, it actually grew organically. And this connective tissue between different groups, >>right? Got it >>breaks down that hole silo mentality. And that's really where I tease been stuck? Yes. And as software becomes more prominent and data becomes more prominent, it's gonna just shift more power in the hands of developer and to the, uh, just add mons who are now being redeployed into being systems, architects or whatever they are. This transitional human rolls with automation, >>transformation architect >>Oh my God, that's a real title. I don't >>have it, but >>double my pay. I'll take it. >>So collections is one of the key things talked about when we talk about the Antelope Automation platform. Been hearing a lot discussion about how the partner ecosystems really stepping up even more than before. You know, 4600 plus contributors out there in community, But the partners stepping up Where do you see this going? Where? Well, collections really catalyze the next growth for your >>It's got to be the future for us that, you know, there there were a >>few >>key problems that we recognize that the collections was ultimately the the dissolution that we chose. Uh, you know, one key problem is that with the batteries included model that put a lot of pressure on vendors to conform to whatever our processes were, they had to get their batteries in tow. Are thing to be a part of the ecosystem. And there was a huge demand to be a part of our ecosystem. The partners would just sort of, you know, swallow hard and do what they needed to d'oh. But it really wasn't optimized Tol partners, right? So they might have different development processes. They might have different release cycles. They might have different testing on the back end. That would be, you know, more difficult to hook together collections, breaks a lot of that out and gives our partners a lot of freedom to innovate in their own time. Uh, >>release on their own cycle, the down cycle. We just released our new version of software, but you can't actually get the new Ansel modules that are updated for it until answerable releases is not always the thing that you know makes their product immediately useful. You know, you're a vendor, you really something new. You want people to start using it right away, not wait until, you know answerable comes around so >>and that new artifact also creates more network effects with the, you know, galaxy and automation hub. And you know, the new deployment options that we're gonna have available for that stuff. So it's, I think it's just leveling up, right? It's taking the same approach that's gotten us this foreign, just taking out to, uh, to another level. >>I certainly wouldn't consider it to be like that. Partners air separate part of our They're still definitely part of the community. It's just they have slightly different problems. And, you know, there were folks from all sorts of different companies who are partners in the contributor summit. Yesterday >>there were >>actually, you know, participating and you know, folks swapping stories and listening to each other and again being part of that feedback. >>Maybe just a little bit broader. You know, the other communities out there, I think of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the Open Infrastructure Foundation. You're wearing your soul pin. I talk a little bit of our handsome How rentable plays across these other communities, which are, you know, very much mixture of the vendors and the end users. >>Well, I mean and will certainly had Sorry. Are you asking about how Ansel is relating to those other communities? Okay, Yeah, because I'm all about that. I mean, we certainly had a long standing sort of, ah fan base over in the open stacks slash open infrastructure foundation land. Most of the deployment tools for all of you know, all the different ways. So many ways to deploy open stack. A lot of them wound up settling on Ansel towards the end of time. You know, that community sort of matured, and, you know, there's a lot of periods of experimentation and, you know, that's one of the things is something's live. Something's didn't but the core parts of what you actually need to make a cloud or, you know, basically still there. Um And then we also have a ton of modules, actually unanswerable, that, you know, help people to operationalize all their open stack cloud stuff. Just like we have modules for AWS and Google Cloud and Azure and whoever else I'm leaving out this week as far as the C N. C f stuff goes, I mean again, we've seen a lot of you know how to get this thing up and running. Turns out Cooper Daddy's is not particularly easy to get up and running. It's even more complicated than a cloud sometimes, because it also assumes you've got a cloud of some sort already. And I like working on our thing. It's I can actually use it. It's pretty cool. Um, cube spray on. Then A lot of the other projects also have, you know, things that are related to Ansel. Now there's the answer. Will operator stuff? I don't know if you want to touch on that, but >>yeah, uh, we're working on. We know one of the big questions is ah, how do answerable, uh, and open shift slash kubernetes work together frequently and in sort of kubernetes land Open shift land. You want to keep his much as you can on the cluster. Lots of operations on the cluster. >>Sometimes you got >>to talk to things outside of the cluster, right? You got to set up some networking stuff, or you gotta go talk to an S three bucket. There's always something some storage thing. As much as you try to get things in a container land, there's all there's always legacy stuff. There's always new stuff, maybe edge stuff that might not all be part of your cluster. And so one of the things we're working on is making it easier to use answerable as part of your operator structure, to go and manage some of those things, using the operator framework that's already built into kubernetes and >>again, more complexity out there. >>Well, and and the thing is, we're great glue. Answerable is such great glue, and it's accessible to so many people and as the moon. As we move away from monolithic code bases to micro service's and vastly spread out code basis, it's not like the complexity goes away. The complexity simply moves to the relationship between the components and answerable. It's excellent glue for helping to manage those relationships between. >>Who doesn't like a glue layer >>everyone, if it's good and easy to understand, even better, >>the glue layers key guys, Thanks for coming on. Sharing your insights. Thank you so much for a quick minute to give a quick plug for the community. What's up? Stats updates. Quick projects Give a quick plug for what's going on the community real quick. >>You go first. >>We're big. We're 67 >>snow. It was number six. Number seven was kubernetes >>right. Number six out of 96 million projects on Get Hub. So lots of contributors. Lots of energy. >>Anytime. I tried to cite a stat, I find that I have to actually go and look it up. And I was about to sight again. >>So active, high, high numbers of people activity. What's that mean? You're running the plumbing, so obviously it's it's cloud on premise. Other updates. Projects of the contributor day. What's next, what's on the schedule. >>We're looking to put together our next contributor summit. We're hoping in Europe sometime in the spring, so we've got to get that on the plate. I don't know if we've announced the next answer will fast yet >>I know that happens tomorrow. So don't Don't really don't >>ruin that for everybody. >>Gradual ages on the great community. You guys done great. Work out in the open sores opened business. Open everything these days. Can't bet against open. >>But again, >>I wouldn't bet against open. >>We're here. Cube were open. Was sharing all the data here in Atlanta with the interviews. I'm John for his stupid men. Stayed with us for more after this short break.

>> Live, from Barcelona Spain, it's theCube! Covering, KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019: Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and the Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi, and welcome back. this is theCube's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. We're at the end of day one of two days of live, wall-to-wall coverage. I'm Stu Miniman, and at the end of the day, what we try to do always is do our independent analysis and say what we really think. And joining me is someone that usually has no problem telling you exactly what he thinks online. So, I've challenged Mr. Corey Quinn. Cloud economist, of the Duckbill Group. and the curator, author, Last Week in AWS. To tell us what he actually thinks. >> Well, Stu, you know what your problem is. All the best feedback starts off that way. Now, this has been a fascinating experience for me. This is the first time I've ever been to KubeCon. I didn't quite know what to expect- >> It's KubeCon, not Koob-Con. Come on. It is in GitHub, how you have to make the pronunciation correct. >> We are on theCube. We would think that we would be subject matter experts on this. >> CNCF will be cracking down on you if I don't correct you on this. >> I still maintain we're in Barcelona, Italy. But that's a whole separate argument to have with other people. >> Yes, well, most Americans are geographically challenged. And we understand you have some challenges too. >> Exactly, most Americans need to learn geography, we go to war. (chuckling) >> All right, so, Corey, I guess the first question for you is, you usually go to mostly AWS shows. Most of the customers we've talked to have been AWS customers. So is this feeling much different from the usual show you go to? >> The focus of the conversations is different, and to be clear, I'm not much of a cloud partisan myself. I deal with AWS primarily because, not for nothing, that's where my customers are. That tends to be exactly where the expensive problems tend to live. For better or worse. If that changes, so will I. >> So, you're saying yet that the other cloud providers don't have their customers big enough bills, or they just haven't figured out how you might be able to help them in the future? >> To be very honest with you. Yes, is the short answer. Right now on aggregate, my customers spend about a billion dollars a year on AWS. I don't see the same order of magnitude on other providers, but it's coming. It is very clearly coming. None of these providers are shrinking as far as size goes. It's largely a matter of time. >> Alright. But Corey, I hope at least you've understood that Kubernetes at the center for all things. And that multi-cloud is the way that we are today and will always be in the future. And we should all hold hands and sing along, that we all get along. Is that what you've learned so far? >> I think that's absolutely what I've learned so far. It comes down to religion and it's perfectly name for it. I mean, Kubernetes was the Greek God of spending money on cloud services. >> All right. But seriously. Corey, I think one of the things that I really liked is. We talk to customers and there were some interesting things at least I heard when you talked about they see huge value in what they're doing with Kubernetes. Many of them only have one cloud provider today. Yet they are choosing to lay on Kubernetes either with AWS or with another solution there. What's been your take of what you've heard about. Kind of the why and what they're doing? >> There've been a few different reasons on it. One that resonated with me did validate what I talked about at the beginning of the day. Which was, that by trying to position yourself to be strategically amenable to any potential provider you might want to use in the future. You are sacrificing velocity. And you're gaining agility, losing velocity to do that. Is that trade off worth it? I don't think I'm qualified to judge. I think that's a decision every business has to make on its own. My argument has always been that if that's the decision you make, do it knowingly. And I don't think we've talked to anyone who's made that unknowingly today. >> Yeah. I think that's a really good point. What is it, you know, surprised you or interest you that we've heard so far? >> I have to be honest. I have a long and storied history in open source. I was staff at the Freenode IRC network for about a decade. Which was an interesting time. And I've seen a lot of stuff, but I don't think I've ever seen two open source projects merge before. The fact that we saw that today is still swirling around in my head for better or worse. >> Yeah. And it was OpenCensus and OpenTracing coming together. Open Telemetry. So, definitely check out Ben Siegelman. and it was Morgan McLean from a Google cloud. You know, really interested in discussion. I don't think we're sharing too much when we say off camera. There were like, look, it's like, yes, they got us in a room and we worked, but we'll try not to throw punches here on the set and everything like that. We understand that look, there are people that put these things together and you have smart people that build things the way that it should be done. And these were not like two very similar projects going in the same direction, they were built with different design principles and therefore there'll be somethings that they all need to reconcile to be able to go forward. But yeah, very interesting. >> And everyone we spoke to today was very focused on what the needs of their customers, whoever they happen to be and how to meet those customers and their business requirements. There's no one that we spoke to that was sitting here saying, oh, this is the right answer because it is technically correct. The answer is we're always of the form. This is what we need to do in order to serve customers. And it's very hard to argue against that strategy. >> All right, but none of this really matters because Serverless, right Corey? >> Oh, absolutely. Serverless is the way and the light of the future and to some extent I believe that. >> But they're not doing Serverless. I'm pretty sure they're half a step behind you. Yes, it tends to be, it's easy to make go ahead and die and say, Oh, if you're not running the absolute latest bleeding edge thing, you're behind, you're backwards, etc. And I don't get that all the sense that that is reality. I think that there's, if you're building something greenfield today, you are fundamentally going to make different choices, than if you have something you're trying to carry forward. And I don't just mean carrying forward a technical sense. I mean carrying it forward in terms of process, in terms of culture, in terms of existing business units that need to modernize. People are moving in the same general direction. The question that I think is still on answered is, today, there's a perception rightly or wrongly, that Containers are slightly behind Serverless. I don't know that that necessarily holds true. I think that they are aligned towards the same business value. I think, judge either one of them by today's constraints in the context of longer term strategy is a mistake. I'm curious to see what happens. >> Corey, I love. So we had Jeff Brewer from Intuit and they were like look, we're doing Serverless, we're doing a lot of Containerless stuffs and I'd love it for my developer not to have to worry about. And they've had been moved down that path. So, we know one of the truisms out there is everything in IT is always additive. When you talk to them and say, oh, well I'm going into cloud wait, I still have some stuff that, running on my main frame or my eyes series. And that we'll probably be running there when I've retired. We were talking offline. It's like, well, there's been a little resurgence in COBOL. Just because it did not die after Y2K and so did these things always come back and it's always additive and the longer you've been in business as a company, the more legacy you need to be able to maintain and extend and connect to where you want to go with the future. >> It's almost a sawtooth curve. As complexity continues to rise it becomes to a point where it's untenable. There's something that comes out that abstracts that away and you're back down to a level a human being might actually be able to understand. And you take it a step further and you start to see it again and again and again, and then it collapses down. Docker and a lot of the handbuilt orchestration systems were like that. And then Kubernetes came out. Initially it was fairly simple and then things have been added to it now. And I think we're climbing that sawtooth curve again. Whether or not that maintains? Whether or not that simplifies again? I find that history rhymes particularly in tech. >> Well yeah and I always worry sometimes when you talk about the abstraction layer you got to be really careful what you're abstracting. What we see here a lot, is a lot of times it's people, how can I just consume that? I want to buy it as a service and somebody take care of that not, it hides the complexity for me but some of the complexity is still there. >> Right. So our site is now intermittently slow what do you plan to do? Its update my resume immediately cause we're never untangling that Gordian knot of an infrastructure. That's not a great answer but it is an honest one in some shops. >> I've talked to, we know that there was, for a long time people outsourced what they were doing. And we need to make sure that when you're buying something as a service that you haven't outsourced, That you understand what's important to your business, what happens when things go wrong. We had some discussion today about, networking and observability that we need to be able to go down that rabbit hole, at least turn to somebody who can. Because just because I can't touch that gear doesn't mean my next not on the line, If something goes wrong. >> You can outsource a lot of work. You can't outsource responsibility. I put slightly more succinctly, the line I've always liked was you own your own availability. If you have a provider that you've thrown a lot of these things over to and they go down, well sure you're going to have loud angry phone calls and maybe a few bucks back from an SLA credit. We your customers we're down and we're suffering. So the choices you made impact your businesses perception in the market and your customer's happiness. So as much as fun as it is to be able to throw things over the wall for someone else to deal with, you're still responsible. And I think that people forget that at their own peril. >> One of the things I like. I've got a long history in open source to. If there are things that aren't perfect or things that are maturing. A lot of times we're talking about them in public. Because there is a roadmap and people are working on it and we can all go to the repositories and see where people are complaining. So at a show like this, I feel like we do have some level of transparency and we can actually have realism here. What's been your experience so far? >> I think that people have been remarkably transparent about the challenges that they're facing in a way that you don't often get at a vendor show. Where you have a single vendor, you're at their show, regardless of who that might be. You're not going to be invited back if you wind up with a litany of people coming on a video show or a podcast or screaming and sobbing in the bathroom, however you want to, whatever your media is. Just have a litany of complaints the entire time or make that provider look bad. I don't sense that there's any of that pressure. And for some reason, and this is my first coop gone, so maybe this is just the way this culture it works. Everyone, regardless of who they worked for or what they're working on or what their experience has been, seems happy. I can only assume there's something in the water. >> All right. Well, I've just been informed that the CNCF had asked me to remove Corey because he refuses to say KubeCon. But, Corey. Since this might be your last time on the program, any other final words that you have for it or I will let you do something very rare and if you have any questions for me. Love on my way. >> Absolutely. What did you find today that you didn't expect to find? >> The one that jumps out for me really is two things. One, we discussed it already is the, the observability piece coming together. The other one is. You talk about that maturation of where Amazon fits in this ecosystem. And we had lovely conversation, with Abby fuller. But not just that one. We talked to the users and how they think about it. Which is what really matters is, there's so much talk about, who contributes more code and who does the most here. But look, we're talking cloud. Most of these customers are using AWS as if not the cloud, one of the clouds. I've set it on theCube many times. When you live in a hybrid and multi-cloud world and the public cloud, AWS is the far leader. There's no debating that. So they are participating here. They are doing plenty for what their customers want and they give choice and they listen to the feedback. So that was interesting to me that maturation of where that sits because when I come into the show and many times it is, it is the open source in this whole ecosystem, trying to prevent Amazon from taking over the world. And look, we want a good robust ecosystem out there. >> We absolutely do. >> While I have many friends that work for Amazon. We probably don't want to all be working for a single company down the road. >> I certainly don't. >> We like a nice robust ecosystem where there is choice out there and that keeps its (mumbles). So that maturation of where they are on has been interesting to me so far, especially from the user stand point. >> Very much so. I don't think that anyone wants to look back and say, wow, I'm sure glad we have only one option in this entire space that does anything useful. And then a whole bunch of could have the didn't. And for better or worse, I don't think that the future is nearly as clear cut as the past of cloud. Historically, AWS has been the 800 pound gorilla. I think that we hearing fascinating things from GCP and from Azure. I don't necessarily think that the future is preordained. I do think right now it is AWS game to lose, but I'm starting to see a lot of other players in his face start to make a lot of very interesting and arguably very correct moves. >> All right. Well, we know you as our audience have lots of places where you can turn to find your information and we are always pleased that when you turn to us to watch theCube. if you have any feedback for ourselves, Corey Quinn and myself, Stu Miniman. Reach out on Twitter. We are easy to reach on that. And we have lots of posts. So if you're like, Hey, tired of looking at this mug here. Let us know. But hopefully we're asking the questions and digging into the areas that you want and we'll help your businesses going forward. So we are at the end of day one, Two days live coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon. This is the cube. You're a leader in live tech coverage. Thanks for watching. (music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. And happy to welcome back to the program, fresh off the keynote stage, Mark Collier, who's the chief operating officer of the OpenStack Foundation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me back. >> Thank you for having us back and thank you again for doing the show in Vancouver, so-- >> Oh man, such an amazing place. Like this convention center, I don't think it's fair to call it a convention center because it's like a work of art, you know? >> And it's my second time here for this show, and I think kudos to your team because you have good enough content that people aren't just wandering around, taking pictures of the mountains. My wife is off seizing the whale watching right now, but everybody else here, they're engaged. And that's what you want in the community. >> Yeah, definitely. I guess you have to make sure you don't lose their attention to the whales and the sea planes, but so far everyone seems to be gettin' down to business. >> You know, I think it would be fair to say that there's some transitions going on in the marketplace in general, and at this show I notice when I got the invitation, it's like the OpenStack slash open infrastructure summit. Got a big track on edge computing, got another one on containers, been talking about containers for a few years at this show, which really interesting to talk about. And I mean, the edge stuff, we were talking about it as NFV and the telcos and all that stuff in the past. What is the OpenStack Summit these days, Mark? >> Yeah, I mean I think that it's evolving to reflect what people are doing with open source when it comes to infrastructure. And so we call it open infrastructure, but basically it's just a world of possibilities have been opened up by, of course, OpenStack, but also many, many other components, some of which came before like Linux and things like that, and some of which started after, like Kubernetes, and there's many other examples, TensorFlow for AI machine learning. So there's kind of this like embarrassment of riches these days if yo want to automate your infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. You can do so many more things with it, and OpenStack solves a very specific, very important layer which is that kind of traditional infrastructure as a service layer, compute storage and networking. But once you automate that, it's proven, it's reliable, you could run millions of cores with it like some of our users are doing. You want to do more and that means layering other things on top or sort of connecting them in different ways. So just trying to help users get something more out of the technology is really what we're about and OpenStack becomes like an enabler rather than kind of like the whole conversation. Yeah, one of the things I always say in this industry, sometimes we just don't have the right expectations going into these environments. You know, when I think back 15 years ago as to what we thought Linux was going to do. Oh it's going to crush Microsoft. It's like, well, Microsoft is still doing quite well and Linux has done phenomenal. We wouldn't have companies like, Google if it wasn't for the likes of Linux. In an open source you've got a lot of tools out there. So while there are the CERNs and Walmarts of the world that take a full OpenStack distribution and put out tons of cores, I've run into software companies where when I dig into their IP, oh what do ya know, there's a project from OpenStack in there that enables what they're doing. So I've seen at a lot of shows they're like, there's companies that are like, yes, I want it, and then there's like, oh no, there's this piece of it I want, there's that piece what I want. And that's kind of the wonder of OpenStack that I can do all of those things. >> Yeah exactly. I think we've talked before about sort of calling it composable open infrastructure, and making, OpenStack's always been architecturally designed from, in terms of the goals around it, to be pluggable so from the beginning you could plug multiple hypervisors kind of underneath and you could plug different backends for storage and networking, so that sort of concept of being something, integration engine that plugs things in is part of the OpenStack kind of philosophy, but now you see that the OpenStack services themselves are sort of, you can think of them as microservices, and like if you just need block storage you can use sender. And that may make sense for some specific environments, and are you running OpenStack? Well, you are, but it gets a little bit fuzzy in terms of are you running all of it or part of it? And the reality is the things are not as simple as a binary yes or no. It's just that the options are much greater now. >> Well Mark, that has been some of the discussion in the community over the last few years, the core versus the big tent, and now of course with all this interoperability, conversations with both OpenStack participating in other communities and other communities here today, this week. I mean, what's the current state of that conversation about what is OpenStack and how does it interrelate? I think you kind of touched on it with this composable idea. >> Yeah, I mean I think that basically it's kind of like OpenStack is as OpenStack does, you know? So what are people doing with it and that tells you kind of what it is and what people are doing with it. There are a lot of different patterns. There's no like one specific deployment pattern that everyone uses, but probably by and large, by far the most common pattern is OpenStack plus Kubernetes. And so when you talk about the interop piece, this is a really good example where OpenStack has evolved to become a better, kind of better citizen, I guess, of open infrastructure by having more reliable APIs, kind of being a target that tools that build on top can rely on and not sort of have to worry about the snowflakes of different clouds and there's still more work to be done in that area, but we talked about OpenLab, which is an initiative, this morning, that puts together OpenStack, Kubernetes, and other pieces like Terraform and things like that, and does constant end-to-end testing on it, and that's really how you make sure that you know kind of what combinations work well together, and sometimes you just find bugs, and it turns out a couple of changes need to be made upstream in Kubernetes or in OpenStack or in gophercloud or in Terraform, and just if you don't know, then the user kind of with the some assembly required model, finds out and they're like, I don't know, it doesn't work, it's broken. Well, is it OpenStack's fault or Kubernetes's fault, and they don't, they just want it to work. >> So you're saying >> Identified upstream we can fix it. >> You're saying OpenStack has become more of a stable layer of the (mumbles). >> Yes exactly, yes. It has become a much more stable layer. >> Which means there wasn't a whole lot of flashy storage network and compute up on stage actually. >> A lot of the talk-- >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I think it's just really proven in that way, and you know, one of the things that was highlighted was like the virtual GPUs, right? So, if OpenStack is designed to be pluggable, what do people want to have as an option now in terms of compute storage and networking, on the compute side is they want GPUs, because that gives an AI machine learning much faster, if they're bit coin miners, like I'm sure you all are in your basement, they're going to want GPUs. And what was really interesting is that the PTL, like the technical leader of the Nova Project, got up and talked about virtual GPUs. I was back in the green room and like three of the other keynote speakers were like, oh man, we are so excited about this VGPU support. Like, our customers are asking for it, the guy, Mohammad from Vexos, is the CEO of Vexos, he said, our customers are demanding this queens release, which is the latest OpenStack, and we were kind of surprised, they just really want this queens release. So we asked them why and they're like well they want VGPU. So that's kind of an example of an evolution in OpenStack itself, but it's an extension, enabler for things like GPUs, and that's kind of an exciting area as well. >> You know, it's interesting because in previous years it was the major release was one of the main things we talked about. Queens, as you mentioned, other than the VGPUs and that little discussions, spent a lot more time outside, talked to a lot of the users. You talked about the new tracks that were there. And something I heard a lot this year that I hadn't heard for a few years was, get involved, we're looking to build. And I was trying to think of a sports analogy, and maybe it was like, okay, we're actually building more of a league here and we're looking to recruit as opposed to or is it rebuilding what exactly OpenStack 2.0 is in the future? >> Yeah, that's a really interesting point. You're absolutely right, and I can imagine or can remember sort of talking to some of the speakers as they were working on their content, and I don't think I totally picked up that that was a big trend, but you're absolutely right, that was a major call to action from so many different people. I think it's because when we think about what we are as a community, I talked about how we're a community of people who build and operate open infrastructure, and it's really about solving problems, and if you're as open to community collaboration and you want to solve problems, you can't be afraid to stand up and say we have problems. And sometimes maybe that feels awkward. It's like the tech 101 is get up and say you solved all the problems and you should buy it today. It's online or downloaded or whatever. And I think we just realized that the magic of our community is solving problems. There's always going to be more problems to solve, now you're putting more pieces together, which means the pieces themselves have to evolve and the testing and integration has to evolve. Like it's just a new set of challenges and sort of saying, here's what we're trying to solve, it's not done, help us, actually is more, I think, true to kind of what the community is all about. >> I'm wondering, do we know how many people are at the show this year? >> I don't have the exact count. I think it's around 2600, something like that. >> Yeah, so fair to say it might be a little bit less than last year's North America show? >> Yeah, it is a little bit less. >> And what are you hearing from the user? What are the main things they come for? That you got the new tracks, you've got the open dev conference co-located. What kind of key themes can you get from the users? >> Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we found is that we have twice as many cloud architects this year than a year ago. So I think there's always this period of time where conference attendance is driven by curiosity. Like, I've heard about this thing, what is it, or it's the cool factor, hype curves and all that stuff, I want to learn about it. At this point people know what OpenStack is. We've got tons of ways you can learn about it. There's local meetups, there's OpenStack Days all over the world, there's content, videos online. It's just not like a mystery anymore. Like the mystery draws in kind of the people that are just poking around to learn. Now we're at that point of, okay I know what it is, I know what it's for, I want to architect a solution around it, so seeing twice as many cloud architects I think is an interesting data point to think about how we're shifting more towards, people are not asking if it's proven, they're like it's been proven for whatever, two, three years, however, the perception is, but the technology is just very, very solid. It's running infrastructure all over the world, the largest banks and so on and so, I think that's kind of how things are shifting to what else can we do and put on top of it, now that it's a solid foundation. >> I wonder, sometimes there's that buzz as to what's going on out there. There was a certain large analyst firm that wrote a report a couple months ago that wasn't all that favorable about OpenStack. There's others that watching on Twitter during the keynote, and they're like, they're spending all their time talking about containers, why isn't this just part of the Cloud Native Con, KubCon show? What's the foundation's feedback on, what are you hearing kind of, what's your core deliverables? And why this show should continue in the future? >> Sure, I mean I think that what we're hearing generally from users and seeing in our data as well as from analysts like 451 and IDC, those are a couple of different reports coming out, like right now or just came out, that Jonathan mentioned this morning, I think is adoption just continues to grow, and so you know, I think people are not looking at just one technology stack. And maybe they never were, but I think there was this kind of temptation to just think of it, is it containers versus VMs or is it Kubernetes versus OpenStack? And it's like, no one who really runs infrastructure thinks like that because they might have thought it until they tried it, they realized these things go together. So I think the future of this conference is just becoming more and more centered around what are the use cases? What are the technical challenges we're trying to solve? And to the extent we're getting patterns and tools that are emerging like the lamp stack of the cloud, so to speak. How can people adopt them? So you think about cloud as taking all kinds of new forms, edge computing, those are the kinds of things that I think will become a bigger part of the conference in the future. I do like the open infrastructure angle on this. I mean, as infrastructure folks, right, you know that that storage compute network doesn't manage itself, doesn't configure itself. >> Mark: Totally. >> Doesn't provision itself. And so a lot of the app layer things should rely on this lower layer. And I thought last year in Boston there was this kind of curious OpenStack or containers conversation, which seemed odd at the time, and that's clarified, I think, at a number of levels from a number of camps and vendors. >> Yeah I agree, I think we have done our best from our point of view, from the foundation, myself, and the others that are involved in our community to try to dispell those myths or tamper down that kind of sense of a rivalry, but it takes time and I do feel like there is kind of a sea change now. There are just so many people running in production with various container tools, predominantly Kubernetes and in OpenStack that I think that that sort of myth that they're, that one's replacing the other, it's hard for that cognitive dissonance to last forever when you're given like the hundredth example of like somebody running in production at scale. Like they must be doing it for a reason, and then people start to go, well why is that? >> And I did like the comment you did make about cloud is not consolidating and simplifying, right? Even at the Dell Technologies World show, Michael Dell got up and talked about the distributed core, which is a little bit of an oxymoron, but the fact is compute and compute is everywhere, right? And it's not only, it's on the edge, it's on telephone poles, it's in little boxes in our, you know, going to be on our walls, in our walls, right? And this open infrastructure idea can play everywhere. It's not just about an on-prem data center anymore. >> Yeah and I think that's a big part of why we started to say open infrastructure instead of cloud, just because, I mean, you know, I guess we spent 10 years arguing over the definition of cloud, now we can argue over open infrastructure. But to me it's a little more descriptive and a little less kind of, I don't know, a little less baggage than the term cloud. >> Yeah, definitely differentiates it as to where you sit in the marketplace. And one thing I definitely want to give the foundation great kudos on, the diversity of this show is excellent. Not just that there was a welcome happy hour and there's a lunch, but look at all the PTLs, the project leads that are there, a lot of diversity, up on stage. It's just evident. >> Mark: Thank you. >> And it's just something kind of built into the community, so great job there. >> Thank you, I'm very proud of the fact that we had just so many excellent keynote speakers this morning, and you know, that's always something that we strive for, but I feel like we got closer to the goal than ever in terms of just getting broad representation up on the stage. And some amazing leaders. >> It's always nice from our standpoint because we always say give us your keynote speakers and give us some of the main people making things happen, and it just naturally flows that we have a nice diversity, from gender, from geography. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> From various backgrounds, so that's good. All right, want to give you the final word. Take aways that you want people after the show or maybe some things that people might not know if they didn't make it here for the show. >> I mean, I think, you know, the number one take away is it's all about the people, and we want to make it about the headlines or the technology, and even the technology is about the people, but certainly the operators are not, like I said, logos don't operate clouds or infrastructure, people do, so getting to meet the people, seeing what they're doing, like the Adobe I mentioned, they're marketing cloud. They have 100,000 cores of compute with four people operating it. So if you've got the right four people and the right playbook, you can do that, too. But you got to meet those people and find out how they're doing it, get their recipe, get their playbook, and they're happy to share it, and then you can run at that kind of scale, too, without a big team and you can change the way you operate. >> Yeah, I know I said in my last question, but the last thing, I know there's been a big emphasis to not just do the two big shows a year, but the OpenStack days and other events globally, give people, how do they get involved and where can they come to find out more? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked because, there are so many ways to get involved and of course it's online, it's IRC, it's mailing lists 24/7, but there's no substitute when it's about the people for meeting in person. So we have the two summits a year. We're also having an event which is called the PTG, which is really for the developers and some of the operators will be coming this fall as well where we're having it in Denver, but the summits are the big shows twice a year, but the OpenStack days are really important. Those are annual, typically one to two day events, in 15 plus countries around the world. One in particular that is going to be really exciting this year is in Beijing. You know, we've had that for the last couple of years. Huge event, but of course, others throughout Europe and Asia. Tokyo is always an awesome OpenStack day, and then there are quite a few in Europe as well. So that's another way you can get involved. Not necessarily have to fly around the world, but if you do have to fly around the world, being in Vancouver is not a bad spot, so. >> Yeah, absolutely, and boy we know there's a lot of OpenStack happening in China. >> Yes there is. >> So Mark Collier, thanks again to the foundation for allowing theCUBE to cover this. >> Sure. >> And thanks so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back here with lots more of three days wall-to-wall coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music) (shutter clicks)

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone live here in San Francisco California at Moscone West is the cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for your Cohoes with my co Sam John Troy co-founder of tech reckoning and as an analyst firm and community development advisory a next guests a star meter senior manager community leads at Red Hat welcome to the cube good to see you again so obviously the success of open source is grounded in community we'd love talking about community and there's a lot of new things happening new dynamics that are somewhat similar to us in the past but a new generation is coming into open source it's clear by the growth I mean go to any any event and you know just that the Linux Foundation event Jim's daylan's or is it to slide out exponential growth more code coming in so you know give to trot out all the ethos contribute be part of a project and so that the lines are still there but it's evolving and what's your thoughts on on it as it grows I'm looking at the big ecosystem here growing at Red Hat more contributors more projects more products yeah we definitely have the communities are growing and we have more participation and all the projects across the board and I think one of the things that's interesting is the the projects that we're working on are things that one person can't develop or use all on their own and we're talking like software-defined storage or talking OpenStack big solutions and so companies are paying people to work on them and I think over the last 10 years that's been the really big difference like our shares with Dirk at VM was heading up all their open sources and we just didn't Copenhagen and he was reiterating and reminding me because I found myself falling in the trap and a lot of new companies that come into open source I am gonna I'm gonna get people involved in a product I'm gonna join that project so we can commercialize the project versus commercialize their offering and being part of our project so Dirk when I were talking and he was emphasizing languages everything language defines behavior and that the project is an open contributed project on it the product that's commercialized is different and this is not new to read that but it's worth just reeling some of the language as new people come in your thoughts on this yeah so Red Hat we're really clear on what's upstream what's the open source version that everyone is working on together and then what's the version that we're supporting for our customers they have the same codebase they have the same features but the upstream version we call a project and the downstream version we call a product and sometimes they're even branded differently for example manage IQ is the upstream project in cloud forms Red Hat cloud forms is the downstream product and that's where the action is for Red Hat to to commercialize and or productize alright Lord and get all around it but then they contribute everything backups everything's developed upstream so you and you and the other community managers are you at Red Hat it's a little bit different right open source the open source way and open source ethos so you do have a you know these open source communities as well as user communities are you involved with both I mean how do you how do you meld the two how do you differentiate the two you know in the context of Red Hat if I'm a Red Hat customer yes so they're all the same or overlapping so usually you'll have a core group of contributors who maybe some maybe Red Hat employees some may work at another company that either a user company or a partner company some may be individuals working on it and it's kind of your core base but then you have like people that that are participating watching very carefully may be contributing once in a while that are watching that and then you have users and so they're not separate groups of people they're overlapping groups of people that's great the in terms of community here at the show right once you have community that's that's 365 right you come you come to an event and it's like kind of like homecoming so how has the experience been this year for you at Red Hat summit with the Red Hat community people coming together you know a community activities that sort of thing it's it's a really great place to bring people together so that we have all of our customers we have contributors and everyone is on the floor talking so like we're in community central here the floor and our booth has been full of people all day long even when they announce that it's closing there's still people around and talking and we have everything from customer events where we talk to customers about how we work on an upstream - actually that we've had contributor meetups where everyone gets together and meets all their fellow contributors in person how do you guys handle the growth because you know with with growth you have still new ideas coming in so you want to keep an open inclusive environment is there any new things you guys are doing they make sure all the best ideas are being surfaced up or is it the same program seems to think keep going that that way I think I think the best projects evolve over time so we're always looking at the governance of our projects and does it fit where that project is right now and so when a project first starts out it might have a benevolent dictator and then later when it has more contributors and more companies involved you might have even might evolve to a board or to a technical group so for example Gluster we just graduated to a group of maintainer x' that make decisions as opposed to just a project lead is there like a norm or is there a certain pattern that emerges for the puck the programs up I mean the project's having a certain format that you seen that works best or this is more ad hoc based on who's involved it's a little ad hoc but I think most of them start with a very strong personality who has a vision and so a lot of them start either as benevolent dictators or as you know someone who's the main project lead and then as they grow bigger over time you end up with more of a voting member to board of directors Stiles to like Apache and then now today there's a lot of foundations involved to write some some things are are in the Red Hat orbit more more closely others we you know like we were just at KU con so the all the Linux Foundation different the for instance the kubernetes the CN CF as well as stuff like you know the Cloud Foundry and OpenStack foundation so I mean can you talk a little bit about the role of foundations now in modern community in socially open-source yeah I think it's it's part of this evolution from all the contributors we're working as individuals which they still are two companies being able to to pay for people to work on these projects and so the companies want to not just give people time to these projects they also want to donate money and pull their resources to do joint marketing or to push kubernetes forward and so organizations like the CNCs the Linux Foundation enable those companies to work together more effectively if done a good job of balancing I mean they got a lot of logos I mean a lot of people paying them money so there's a commercial aspect but they've been very transparent about that trying to create a great core community and they've separated the technical steering committee from the membership which is smart most the foundations are really good about leaving the technical steering committee to work as it's worked well in open-source and then having the company has pulled their money for for marketing or for filling in the holes where they're not getting volunteers start go ahead well story I just wanted to extend the governance conversation a little bit to the culture as well the I mean we're we're in an interesting place again 2018 in our bigger culture those of us who've been involved in online culture and online communities we know the ways these things can go wrong and we've seen it you know how do you as an individual and your team develop and foster a inclusive and participatory culture in your in the communities of Red Hat I think he said we've all seen things go wrong but I think we also have a lot of experience now about how to foster the culture that we would like and how to include people and so you're seeing a lot more efforts like most online communities are pretty nice places to hang out these days and you're seeing a lot of effort to make sure there's code of conduct for the projects that there's kind of conduct for the events that people are welcome there's a diversity event tomorrow here and so I think we're seeing a lot more inclusiveness and a real effort to bring people in you guys attract a younger demographic we were talking earlier with Denise and because it's open source you got academic you could go as high school is seeing everything from robotics clubs - you know coding early on so you get the redheads getting the mirth for her Li and so she made the kind we're gonna grow our own talent so you know kind of a tongue-in-cheek but you guys have access to a lot of the younger developers any commentary on you know the orientation shop see their loved mission-driven act the younger folks love mission driven and tech but is there any kind of a new school kind of concepts you seen coming from the young guns that are coming up through the ranks so I recently had a chance to speak to a classroom full of college students and that was you really impressed like they knew what open source was they were familiar with licenses and they all wanted to like make their app or make money but they were really focused on humanitarian causes at the same time and so as you really impressed with that I want to do well in my career but I want to make a difference in the world in a better place on that I was really exciting the safe and now more than ever you with a global footprint we just had UNICEF on earlier here Red Hat labs doing some pretty cool things around you know code for good so I think that's cool the challenge we're seeing is is that okay as enterprises come in the continued balance has always been the case you don't want the big one vendor coming in for on their weight around and we're seeing like even with Java you know which is Oracle Java emails Oracle seeing movement that's kind of opening up so it seems the business model seems to be pretty clear opens winning we certainly think so at Red Hat the best model is to be open what's it like to work here it's a really awesome place to work I love all the people that I work with you know everyone red hat really takes the open-source culture not just to its codebase but also to the culture that it has within the organization and decisions are made openly discussed openly everyone gets input everyone doesn't always get to a vote but everyone gets to to have a say and it's listen to it it's a great place to work technical culture as well I'll see techies very technical - as the as the ecosystem grows right there's obviously a lot more participants in the community and so if a company wants to get involved either say like in the kubernetes community or in the openshift community you know what's the right way for a company to come in and participate in that kind of a community and and maybe what are some wrong ways if a company wants to get involved in the community I think the first thing they do is find them online right are they on IRC talking are they on flack talking join the mailing list go to whatever events are local to you your local meetups go to the big events if you can and just put people on it people that know what you're trying to do with it and can contribute you know either with getting started documentation or with bug reports yeah I think it does have to come down to the people you have to send actual people and it can't be some sort of corporate motion and in some ways community is all about people and making connections it's absolutely about people I start talk about your experience this year right had somehow see the numbers are bigger they're getting great the company's being rate reviews from financial analysts open ship has been very popular some of the obviously this is what kubernetes has been phenomenal o open stacks got a bunch of life into it you seen separation clear visibility now on how things are kind of clicking together on the app side core OS is in it's just interesting right is there it heads kind of going to a home of the level what's the conversations like here inside the hall people who aren't here watching didn't have a chance to come what's what's the main conversations the chatter what's been the focus in the community central booth I think the focus has been on how things work together like how our different products work together and how you can use them together as well as like how do I follow along like how do I participate if I want to know where our do is going where do I go to to be part of it what's the coolest thing you've heard here at the show and you could share story oh the coolest thing I've heard I don't know if I have a moment but it's just been all the conversations and like the fact that there's people flowing through all the time it's like standing room only in the booth because people want to talk there's a lot of action a lot of face-to-face engagement all right I do have a stir so we had um we taught these uh these red hat when she Boston and taught these middle school girls how to make cameras that open the hardware and open-source software has anyone talked to you about this no and so they made these cameras and then we flew a couple of them out here and they taught a group of people here at the events on Monday how to make so these 11 year olds twelve year olds taught them how to make cameras how to open hardware and open-source software and I was out talking to one of them about what was different about teaching it that that was probably my favorite moment it's hard to be teacher when yeah you got em together know the material yeah but that's paying it forward that's the open sore thief ethos yeah that's we're talking about sorry thanks for coming on the cube and sharing good to see you again congratulations on all the success and again the community is buzzing you guys are doing great and exciting so thanks for coming on and sharing appreciate it thanks for having me live cube coverage here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John Frusciante for stay with us day 2 coverage continues for three days of coverage after this short break be right back [Music]

>> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCube, covering CoinAgenda, brought to you by SiliconANGLE. (salsa music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to our special CUBE exclusive coverage in Puerto Rico. I've been here on the island all week, talking to the most important people, entrepreneurs, citizens of Puerto Rico, the entrepreneur, the students, connecting with Blockchain, investors, thought leaders, and the pioneers. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of theCUBE, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, and we're here with Crystal Rose, who is the CEO and co-founder of Sensay, doing something really cutting edge, really relevant, and kind of ahead of its time, but I think it's time to get it out there and get that token program. Crystal Rose, thanks for joining me and spending time with me. >> Thank you for having me. >> So one of the things I think that you're doing, and I want you to explain this because it's nuanced, and a lot of the super geeks get it and alpha geeks will get it, but the mainstream people are used to dealing in their silos. I use Facebook, I use LinkedIn, I use Twitter, I use chat, I use Telegram, I use these apps. The world's kind of horizontally being disrupted because of the network affect that Blockchain and Crypto is now the underpinnings of, and there's ICOs out there and other things happening, but it's a disruption at the technology stack with software. You guys are doing something with Sensay in the SENSE token that is changing the equation of how people come together, how people grow and learn, whether it's a nonlinear path of some proficiency or connecting with folks or just learning, whatever it is, it's a discovery mechanism. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing and why it's so important. >> Well we built Sensay to connect everyone together without any borders or intermediaries, and so really it's as simple as every phone has the capability to have a messenger. We have five billion phones that have SMS on them, and so we wanted to take the most basic messaging system, which is the most important thing that people do, and connect it to any other messenger, so Facebook Messenger, Telegram, Slack, anywhere where people are chatting, we wanted to create a system that is interoperable and can decentralize your contact list, essentially. >> Yeah, so this is important, so like most people when they go to social networks you got to find a friend, you get connected. In some cases I don't want to have to friend someone just to have a chat, I mean I may not want to friend them, or I might want to or it's a hassle, I don't know who to friend. Is that kind of where you guys come in? >> Yeah, that's one really great use case, because things like Facebook max you at five thousand friends, so if you friended everybody that you had a conversation with, if you needed to know something. Let's say that every Google search that you did was actually a conversation, you would cap the number of potential contacts. We have a circle of people around us that extends out with different tiers. But I think some of the most important people in our lives are actually strangers. So instead of building the social graph we wanted to build the stranger graph. Sensay cares more about what you know than who you know. Because if we can connect people together around similar interests and like-mindedness, we're connecting tribes, and that's really the innate human connection that we're all looking for. And it's also when you extend yourself outside of your social graph, you're most likely to educate yourself or to uplift yourself more. So the way to level up is to get somebody who's an eight or a 10 if you're a five or a two, and find someone outside of your current circle. >> And that also eliminates all this group think we've seen on some of these hate threads that have been on, whether it's Facebook or some IRC backchannel or Slack channel, you see the hate just comes in because everyone's just talking to themselves. This is the new way, right? Connecting out? Through the metadata of the chat. >> Exactly, we want people to seek out good connections, helpful connections, and so if you can both contribute what you know you get rewarded. And if you can ask people on the network you also get rewarded. So by asking something, you're receiving a reward. It's a two-way system. So it's not just the person who is helping, so we don't really encourage an economy of experts. We think that everyone is a sensei. A sensei literally means a person who's been there before. So we think of that as somebody who has had that life experience. And I think if we look at the internet, the internet democratized expertise. It gave us the ability for every single person to write what they were thinking, or contribute some kind of content in some way. But for 20 years the internet has been free. It's a really beautiful thing for consumption, and open source is the absolute right methodology for software. When it comes to your own content a reward makes sense, and so we wanted to create SENSE on top of the platform as a value exchange. It was a point system, so kind of like Reddit Karma. And we wanted to let people exchange it out for some value that they could transact in the world. >> So basically you're going to reward folks with a system that says, okay, first ante up some content, that's your SENSE token, and then based upon how you want to work with people in the network, there's a token transaction that could come out of it. Did I get that right? >> Exactly. So the person who contributes on the network gets rewarded for that data, and it can be anything that you've done in the past, too. So if you have a lot historical data on Facebook or on GitHub for instance. Let's say you're a developer and you have a bunch of repos out there that could be analyzed to see what kind of developer you are, or if you've contributed a lot to Reddit, all of that data is out there, and it's been something that defines you and your personality and your skills and who you are, so you can leverage that, and you can get a reward for it just by letting Sensay understand more about you, so the AI runs through it. You get more rewards, though, if you have real conversations. So it's almost like a bounty program on conversation. >> So we have the same mission. We love what you're doing. I'm really so glad you're doing it. I want to get to an example in Puerto Rico where you've reached out with strangers, I know you have. And get that, I want to get to that in a minute, but I want to continue on the Sensay for a second and the SENSE token. As you guys do this, what is the token going to be looking like to the user? Because you have a user who's contributing content and data, and then you have people who are going to transact with the token, it could be a bounty, it could be someone trying to connect. How is the token economics, just so I can get that out there, how does that work? >> Well right now in Sensay the transaction is peer to peer, so both users who are chatting have the ability to tip each other, essentially. They can give each other some coins within the chat. We have the concept that when you're having a conversation it's always a buyer and a seller. It's always a merchant and a consumer, and sometimes those roles flip, too. I'll be selling you something and eventually you're selling me something. But it's a natural way that we chat to transact. So that was the first way that the token could be used. We then realized that the powerful part of the platform is actually everything underlying the application. So the layer underneath really was the most powerful thing. And so SENSE network evolved as a way for developers who are creating apps or bots to be able to build on top of the network and leverage the access to the humans or to their data, and so now the token can be used to access the network. You get paid if you contribute data or users and vice versa, you can pay to access them. What that's doing is it's taking away the advertising model from being the only entity that's earning a profit on the data. So you, the user, when you're giving your data to Facebook, Facebook earns a lot of money on it, selling it over and over repeatedly to advertisers, and while it's technically yours in the terms you own it, you don't actually have any upside of that profit, and so what we're doing is saying, well why don't we just let a potential business talk to you directly on your consent and give you the money directly for that? So that two or five dollars for one connection would go straight to you. >> This is the new business model. I mean, this is something that, I mean first of all, don't get me started on my ad and tech rant because advertising creates a bad behavior. Okay? You're chasing a business model that's failing, attention and page views, so the content is not optimized the proper way. And you mentioned the Facebook example. Facebook's not optimizing their data for a user experience, they're optimizing for their monetization, which is counter to what users want to do. So I think you kind of are taking it in another direction, which we love 'cause that's what we do, we are open source content, but the role of the data is critical so I got to ask you the hard question. I'm a user, it's my data, how do the developers get access to it? Do they pay me coins or... You want developers because that's going to be a nice piece of the growth so what's the relationship between the developer, who's trying to add value, but also respecting the user's data? >> Exactly, so the developer pays the network and as a user you're a token holder, you own the network, essentially. So there is really no real middle layer since the token will take a small amount out for continuing to power the network, but a nominal amount. Right now the most expensive thing that happens is the gas that's on top of Ethereum because we're an ERC20 token. So we're looking to be polychain. We want to move onto other types of blockchains that have better, faster transactions with no fees and be able to pass that through as well. So we really want to just do a peer-to-peer connection. There's no interest in owning that connection or owning the repository of data. That's why the blockchain's important. We want the data to be distributed, we want it to be owned by the user, and we want it to be accessible by anyone that they want to give access to. So if it's a developer, they're building a bot maybe, or if it's a brand, they're using a developer on their behalf they have to pay the user for that data. So the developer's incentives are completely aligned with the peer-to-peer architecture that you have, users interests, and the technical underpinnings of the plumbing. Is that right? >> Exactly. >> Okay, good, so check. Now I got that. All right, now let's talk about my favorite topic, since we're on this kind of data topic. Who's influential? I mean, what does an influencer mean to you? Is it the most followers (mumbles) it's kind of a canned question, you can hear it coming. I'll just say it. I don't like the influencer model right now because it's all about followers. It's the wrong signal. 'Cause you can have a zillion followers and not be influential. And we know people are buying followers. So there's kind of been that gamification. What should influence really be like in this network? Because sometimes you can be really influential and then discover and go outside your comfort zone into a new area for some reason, whether it's a discovery or progression to some proficiency or connection, you're not an influencer, you're a newbie. So, context is very important. How do you guys look at, how do you look at influencers and how influence is measured? >> I think at the bare bones an influencer is someone who drives action. So it's a person who can elicit an action in another person. And if you can do that at scale, so one to many, then you have more power as an influencer. So that's sort of the traditional thinking. But I think we're missing something there, which is good action. So an influencer to me, a good influencer, is somebody who can encourage positive action. And so if it's one to one and you get one person to do one positive thing, versus one to a thousand and you get a thousand people to do something not so great, like buy a product that's crap because it was advertised to them for the purpose of that influencer making profit, that metric doesn't add up. So I think we live in a world of vanity metrics, where we have tons of numbers all over the place, we have hearts and likes and stars and followers and all of these things that keep adding up, but they have no real value. And so I think it's a really, like you said before, the behavior is being trained in the wrong way. We're encouraged to just get numbers rather than quality, and so what I think a really good influencer is is somebody who has a small group of people who will always take action. It can be any number of people. But let's say a group of followers who will take action based on that person's movements and will follow them in a positive direction. >> And guess what, its a network graph so you can actually measure it. That's interesting... >> Exactly, exactly. >> I can see where you're going with this. Okay, so I got to talk about your role here in Puerto Rico. You mentioned earlier about reaching out to strangers, the stranger graph, which is a way, people's outside of their comfort zones sometimes, reaching out to strangers. You came here in the analog sense, you're in person, but on the digital side as well, kind of blends together. Give an example where you reached out to strangers and how that's impacted your life and their life, because this is the heart of your system, if I can get that right. You're connecting people and creating value, I mean sometimes there might not be value, but you're creating connections, which have the potential for more value. What have you done here in Puerto Rico that's been a stranger outreach that turned into a wow moment. >> Our outreach has been so far an invitation. So we bought a space here that's turned into a community center. Even at the very beginning we had no power as most of the places around that have been sitting for a year or two or since the hurricane, and so we put a call out and said we'd like to get to know the community. We're doing something called Let There Be Light, which is turn the power on, and you know, we put it out to a public group and saw who would show up. So basically it's a community, central building, it's a historical building, so a lot of people know it. There's a lot of curiosity, so it was just a call, it was a call for help. It was really, I think the biggest thing people love is when you're asking them for help, and then you give gratitude in return for that help and you create a connection around it. So that's why we built Sensay the way that we did, and I think there's a lot of possibilities for how it could be used, but having that encouragement of the community to come and share, we've done that now this whole week, so this is restart week, and one of the other things that we've done is help all of the conferences come together, collaborate rather than compete, so go into the same week, and put all of these satellite groups around it. And then we blanketed a week around it so that we had one place for people to go and look for all of the events, and also for them to understand a movement. So we since then have done a dinner every single night, and it's been an open invitation. It's basically whoever comes in first, and we've had drinks every night as well, open. So it's really been an invitation. It's been an open invitation. >> Well congratulations. I really love what you're doing. You guys are doing great work down here. The event this week has been great. We've got great content. We have some amazing people and it's working, so congratulations on that. As you guys look forward, one of the things I've observed in my many years of history, is that there are a lot of waves, I've seen all the waves, this wave's the biggest. But what jumps out at me is the mission-driven aspect of it. So I mean I can geek out on what's the decentralize and the stacks and all the tech stuff happening, but what's most impressive is the mission oriented, the impact kind of thinking. This is now, society is now software driven. This is a new major thinking. Used to be philanthropy was a waterfall model. Yeah, donate, it either goes or doesn't go. Go to the next one, go to the next one. Now you have this integrated model where it's not just philanthropy, it's action, there's money behind it, there's coding, there's community. This is now a new era of societal entrepreneurship, societal missions. Let's talk about your vision on this mission and impact culture that's part of this ethos. >> I think impact is the important word there. So we think about, we think about bringing capital, like you said with normal philanthropy, you can bring capital and you can continuously pump capital into something, but if the model is wrong it's just going to drain, and it's going to go to inefficient systems, and in the end maybe do some help, but a very small percentage of the capacity of what it could do. So what we have the concept of is bringing funds here. We have a fund that was just launched called Restart Ventures, and the idea is instead of compounding interests, we want to make compounding impact, and so it's a social good focused fund, but at the same time all of the proceeds generated from the fund recycle back into other things that are making more impact. So we're measuring based on how much impact can be created with different projects. It could be a charity or it could be an entrepreneur. And if we're getting a multiple, most of that money is going back. So a very small percentage goes to the actual fund and to the fund managers, and the lion's share of the fund is going back into Puerto Rico. So I think if we look at how we can help in a way that is constantly regenerative, sustainable is good, regenerative is better. We want to at least elevate ourselves and get to the point of sustainability, but we're not improving at that point. We're still just fixing problems. We want regenerative. So if we can keep planting things that regrow themselves, if we can make it so that we're setting up the ecosystem to constantly mend itself, it's like a self-healing system of software, this is the right way to do it. So I think that's the new model. >> You built in some nurturing into the algorithm, I like that. 'Cause you're not going to do the classic venture capital carry, you're going to rotate in, but still pay some operators to run it, so they got to get paid. So I noticed in the announcement there was some money for managing directors to do it. So they get paid, and the rest goes into the compounding impact. >> Right. >> Okay, so I got to ask you what your view is these days on something that's really been important in open source software, which again, when I started it was a tier 2 citizen, at best, now it's running the world, tier 1. Open source ethoses are sprinkled throughout these new, awesome opportunities, but community made it happen. What is your current view on the role of the community, communities in general, to make this new compounding impact, whether it's software development, innovation, impact giving, regenerative growth. What's your view on community? >> If community operates with a mentality of giving or contribution over consumption we do a lot better. So when you have an open source network, if a community comes and they contribute to it more, that's something that regenerates. It keeps adding value. But if a community comes and they just keep consuming, then you have to continue to have more and more people giving. I think a really good example of this is Wikipedia. Wikipedia has hundreds of thousands of people who constantly contribute, and the only reward that they've ever gotten for that is a banner ad that says please donate because we don't do ads. So it's a broken model, because you want it to be free and you want it to continue to have the same ethos and you want it to have no advertising, yet the people who contribute most of the time also contribute most of the funding to keep it alive because they love it and care about it so much. So how could we change that model so that the community could give contributions while also receiving a way to make sure that they're able to keep doing that. And a reward system works, and maybe that's not the only solution, but we have to think about how we can keep creating more and more. >> Well I think transparency is one thing I've always loved. The thing that I always hear, especially with women in tech and these new important areas like underserved minorities, and also the bad behavior that goes on in other groups, is to shine the light on things. Having the data being open, changes everything. That is a huge thing. So community and open data. Your thoughts? I'm sure you agree? Open data and the importance of having the data exposed. >> One hundred percent. So our platform also has a layer of anonymity on the user by default, and part of the idea of being able to understand whether or not data is good. Because think of human data, we have to figure out quality. In the past there would be a validation system that is actually other humans telling you whether or not you're good and giving you some accreditation, some verification. This is our concept of experts on things. Now we would rather take consensus. So let's just crowdsource this validation and use a consensus mechanism that would see whether or not other humans think the data is good. If we're using a system like that, we have to have open data, it has to be transparent and it has to be able to be viewed in order to be voted on. So on our platform on just the first application on Sensay, we expose this consensus mechanism in a feature called Peek. So Peek basically lets you peek inside of conversations happening on the network. You can watch all the conversations that happen, the AI pulls out the good ones, and then you vote on them. >> It's kind of like when you walk into a nightclub, do I want to kind of hang out here? >> Yeah, you're kind of a voyeur but you get rewarded for doing it. It's a way for us to help classify, it's a way for us to help train the AI, and also it's a way for people to have passive ability to interact without having to have a conversation with an actual human. >> Well you're exposing the conversation to folks, but also you get signaling data. Who jumps in, who kind of walks away. I mean it's a gesture data, but it's a data point. >> Right, and it's completely private. So the beauty of the transparency is there's actually privacy baked in. And that's what I love about blockchain is it has all of the good things. >> Crystal, I got to ask you a final question. I know you're very busy, and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me today here on theCUBE here in Puerto Rico. This week you've been super busy, you look great. I'm sure you've been up, burning the midnight oil, as they say. What is the, I won't say craziest thing because I've seen a lot of cool, crazy things going on here, it's been fun, what is some highlights for you? Conversations, meeting new people, can you just share a couple anecdotal highlights from restart week that have moved you or surprised you or just in general might be worth noting. >> I've been overall extremely surprised but the sheer number of people who showed up. I feel like a few months ago there was a small group of us sitting around wondering what it would be like if we could encourage our friends to come here and share the space. So just to see the thousands of people who have come here to support these several conferences has been amazing. My most surprising thing, though, is the amount of people that have told me that they bought a one-way ticket and have no intention of going home. So to make Puerto Rico your home I think is a really amazing first step, and I just did a panel earlier today with the person in government who had instituted Act 20 and 22, and that was the initial incentive-- >> Just take a minute to explain what that is for the folks that don't know what it is. >> Sure. So Act 20 and 22 are for the company and the individual respectively. They are a way for you to get a tax incentive for moving here as a resident or domiciling your company here. So you get 0% taxes. I think companies range up to 4% or something like that, and that incentive was created to bring more brilliant minds and entrepreneurs and different types of people with different vocations to the island. So basically, give them a tax incentive and encourage the stimulation of economy. So that has brought this wave of people in who have an idea that no taxes are great. At the same time they fall in love with the island. It's amazing because to me Puerto Rico is a combination of LA's weather, San Francisco's open-mindedness, and Barcelona's deep European history. It's just a really beautiful place. >> And it's US territory, so it's a short hop and a jump to the States if you need to, or Europe. >> Yeah exactly. And no customs and you have your driver's license to get here. Also it's a US dollar. And I say that because most people in America mainland don't realize that Puerto Rico is an American territory, and so they sort of think they're going to a foreign country because it's treated that way by our government. But what I've been really shocked about, though, is the sheer amount of innovation already here. The forward thinking ways of people and the embracing of things like open source and blockchain technology, because their minds are already in a mode of community, a mode of sharing, a mode of giving. >> We interviewed Michael Angelo from Edublock.ido, Edublock, they're connecting all the universities with blockchain. We also interviewed Damaris Rivera, with Puerto Rico Advantage. They'll move you down here. You can press a button, it's instant move. So folks in Silicon Valley who are watching who know us and around the world know theCUBE, there's a group of like-minded people here that have tech chops, there's capital flowing. There's capital people I know have moved here, setting up shop, as well as the Caymans and everywhere else, but it's nice. So it's kind of like LA. >> There is a lot of capital. I have just witnessed a couple hundred million dollars of funds that were established in the last couple of months. And this is around all different types of technology sectors. You don't have to be a blockchain company. You can be innovating in any way possible. One of my favorite projects is a machine that turns plastic bottles into diesel fuel. So one of the problems here is that the generators on the island, when we were here last time we met a guy that was working at a bar in a restaurant, and he was like, "Hey I saw you guys in New York Times "and I think you're like the Crypto people." And he had a conversation, and he said, "I was wondering if you could help my grandmother "who is stuck with no power, and it's been months, "and she's in her 90s, and she needs a generator to run "a machine that keeps her life supported." and so a couple of people went out to bring more fuel, bring a generator to donate. They started understanding that there are so many areas that still need this level of help, that there's a lot that we can do. So when I see projects like that, that's something I want to back. >> Yeah, it's entrepreneurial action taking impact. Crystal, thanks so much for coming out. Crystal Rose, CEO, co-founder of Sensay, real innovative company, pioneer here in the Puerto Rico movement. It's a movement, a lot of tech, entrepreneurs, capital, investors, and the pioneers in the blockchain, decentralized internet are all here. This is like the Silicon Valley of Crypto, right? >> I think they're calling it Crypto Island. >> Crypto Island, yes. It sounds like a TV show. We should be on it. It's not lost, it's Crypto Island. >> Exactly. >> Thanks so much for spending the time on theCUBE. >> Thanks John. >> John: I appreciate it. >> I appreciate it so much. Thanks for making sense of me. >> I'm John Furrier here on theCUBE here in Puerto Rico. Our coverage continues after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat an additional ecosystem is support. >> Welcome back to the Cube. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program two first-time guests. We have Anne McCormick who is a technical leader with Cisco. And we also have Sandhya Dasu who is a OpenStack engineer with Cisco. Thank you both for joining us. >> Sandhya: Thank you. >> Anne: Thank you. >> So Anne let's start with you, tell us just a little bit about your role at Cisco and what you're involved with when it comes to OpenStack. >> Absolutely, I've been at Cisco for 11 years. I have been working on OpenStack for about two-and-a-half now. It's been a blast, I've been to six different summits. I'm having a great time. My role at Cisco is I work under the Metacloud acquisition which is basically a managed, on-prem Cloud solution. And what my role is, is to bring Cisco technology into those deployments, so basically bringing the power of Cisco networking into OpenStack. >> Great so just to clarify, you weren't part of the Metacloud, you were part of Cisco. >> Anne: Yes. >> And you're working with that team who we know. We actually interviewed them back before the acquisition. Great to see you. Sandhya, tell us a little about your role, what you do at Cisco and with OpenStack. >> Sure, I have been with OpenStack the last three years. And Cisco about the same time as Anne, about 11 years. Worked in different routing technologies. But in OpenStack I'm responsible for the Neutron ML2 mechanism driver for Cisco UCS managers. So I've been having a great time in the OpenStack community. Developing in Neutron, giving upstreaming code and stuff like that, yeah. >> We wanted to talk about women of OpenStack but also the Women of OpenStack organization. Can you talk a little bit about what that group is here in the OpenStack community and how you got involved? >> Absolutely, Women of OpenStack is fantastic. It's something I discovered at my very first summit in Paris. I was a little leery going in 'cause I wasn't sure what the attitude would be, if it's us versus them kind of thing, that's definitely not what I'm looking for. But what I found was an extremely inclusive and encouraging community of women and men. It basically addresses the need for more women in technology and tries to make the community a more welcoming place and I think it takes both men and women to do that. And I think their charter is fantastic. They have really great events. >> Yeah, so I have been involved with Women in OpenStack also. Like Anne said, very inclusive community. I have been able to be at different levels of involvement, at different times based on the other work that I'm doing. But I also believe that just showing up and doing your work everyday is also setting a good example for everybody else to feel welcome. >> Great could you share a little bit, maybe start with Anne. The activities going on at the show. We know, like, just down the road from us here there's the Women in OpenStack lounge. I believe there's a lunch you had. What does it encompass at one of the summits? >> Yes, that's fairly typical that they have a lounge area. Today they had a working session during lunch. To kind of go over different things and discussion points. Also yesterday there was a speed mentoring session that I was a part of, it was fantastic. It was my first time doing that but I really enjoyed it. And they have ongoing mentoring for six month sessions which I'm also starting to get involved with. And I know I'm missing one, but there's just so many activities that they do, it's great. >> Sandhya? >> So I help out mostly with people trying to put their first code out for review. And I think that seems a bit daunting in the beginning because this is a very big community. You get a lot of code reviews. From lots of different people, how do you handle all the feedback? So I help out with people with their first upstreaming goal. Once they enter OpenStack. >> So I mean, tech has some diversity challenges, right. We, it's well-known, many communities in the technical realm, right? So the OpenStack community being an open source community. Comes out of a particular set of codes of conduct and expectations and participation. What have your experiences been working in the OpenStack community over the years? Does it feel, is it a, is it a welcoming egalitarian community? I mean, the Code of Conduct, last week we just had, there were some issues in the Kubernetes community which were swiftly addressed. I think the people's awareness actually is much higher than it was even say five years ago, let alone 10 or 20. But how have your experiences been working in OpenStack as a diverse and supportive community? >> I've found that my experience in the OpenStack community has been extremely positive. So I find that, I mean, before the open source, before I got into open source I did work with smart engineers but a comparatively smaller number. But now you get to interact with a whole, large number of really smart people and I think you should tap into that portion of your experience more than anything else. So the first time, I mean, I always found that I was happy with the code that I put out for review. But after making all the changes that I got as review comments, I was really proud of the output. So I think there are lots of positives in this environment. You need to make use of that, focus on that. And in terms of the Code of Conduct. I have only had very positive experiences here. >> And I find the community to be equally welcoming. When I walk into one of these big rooms with a predominantly male population I don't go in thinking I'm a female minority, I go in thinking I'm an engineer and this is my tribe, you know? So I think it's great. >> Alright, anything in particular that Sandhya was talking about. You know, setting an example as an engineer and as a female engineer. Anne what has your experience been? >> It's interesting, when I first started out in engineering. I got a scholarship to an engineering school, that was my first, when I started off on the road. And I remember being so proud and going up to receive this scholarship. And I heard somebody next to me say, "Oh what a waste, they're giving it to a girl." And it's funny because it had never until that point occurred to me that there might be any kind of perception like that. So my first knee-jerk reaction was, "Well I guess all the dinosaurs didn't go extinct." But after that-- >> John: Good for you. >> (laughs) But I mean I could easily have been bitter about it but instead I kind of saw it as an opportunity to set an example and to lead with my work and with my confidence. And to help to change the perception that gender matters when it comes to what you do for a living 'cause I don't believe it does. >> I studied in engineering. I know when I had group projects and had women on the project it helped, you need diversity of ideas. You need diversity of background and skillset. Sandhya, any comments about just diversity in general that you'd comment from the engineering standpoint? >> I think like Anne mentioned, once in a while you do get, you are conscious of the fact that there are very few other women in the room. But that's really, that should not be hindering your progress in any way. Just focus on being an engineer. And I think after a point everybody starts looking past the gender thing and just look at your work. >> Once you're around the table or you know, working on a shared whiteboard or Google doc, right, the gender falls away, you're working on the project. >> Sandhya: Exactly. >> Anne: Absolutely. >> And the same thing applies to IRC too. It's a very democratic channel. Everyone has an equal voice. And then in the end it turns out to be a meritocracy there. And if you have a good idea people will take it. Otherwise like everybody else, you just have to work on tweaking it. >> The concept of mentoring has come up a couple of times in this conversation already. As people look at the diverse workforce, and diverse workforce in tech. People talk about things like the pipeline problem. But from what I understand and have read, you know, a lot of it is supporting underrepresented groups within their careers and in their career growth right? And so that, a lot of that comes down to setting examples and mentoring. Can you talk a little bit about Women of OpenStack and how you talked about speed mentoring maybe and how, one let's talk about Women of OpenStack and mentoring. And then maybe even how you're doing mentoring in your own personal career at Cisco. >> Absolutely, mentoring is something that I'm kind of new to but it's becoming a passion of mine. As a way to both give back and to help encourage other people but also I get something out of it. I get inspired by the energy that people bring to things and by the enthusiasm. Yesterday at my speed mentoring session, one of the women that I talked to was very, very qualified and very excited about OpenStack. She has a full time job that doesn't involve OpenStack so she was involved in OpenStack on the side, you know, 'cause that's fun (laughs) to do on the side. But basically she was telling me that it was hard for her to break into the community. And she was a little bit shy about handing off her resume and stuff. And I think, I kind of said to her, "You know you're selling yourself short. "You've got a lot of enthusiasm. "And I think companies would be inspired by that. "And want to include you." So it was just kind of a nice way to help inspire people and encourage them. >> Have you done any mentoring yourself? >> Yes so I find that while I'm mentoring someone there's something that I get out of it too, because whenever you talk to a new grad you get this enthusiasm, this burst of enthusiasm. That helps you fuel your own work again. But I have heard lot of people discouraging each other from entering this field because they say it's not set up for their success. But then I think that's a self-possessing processing. So the more of them that there are in this field the better it is for everyone else. So that should not be a reason for not getting into this field. >> Sandhya could you talk to us a little about your upstream contributions, what things you've been proud of and excited about when it comes to OpenStack in general? >> Yeah so I have been active in the Neutron community. Mostly in the ML2 area of Neutron plugins. What I'm working on is the Cisco UCS mechanism driver for the Neutron ML2. What it helps you do is to use the Cisco UCS Manager to set up virtual networks, Neutron virtual networks and configure SR-IOV ports. And basically use the entire UCS ecosystem in context of OpenStack. >> Great, Anne you've been to six of these summits. Anything as you reflect back, just the maturity of the project, the maturity of the community. Or one of the themes this week has been kind of resetting expectations about what OpenStack is and isn't. What's your take on the community? >> That's interesting. I feel that there was a bit of a bubble perhaps. Maybe a year or so ago with OpenStack. But I don't think, I don't think we have to reset expectations too far. I do think that it's necessary, I don't think it's going anywhere. I think it's evolving and I really do see it as the second wave of the Internet. So we need it and I think it's great. >> Anne, Sandhya, really appreciate you joining, sharing your perspectives. We always love to have the diverse experience and OpenStack actually one of the better shows in making sure we have, you know, smart, energetic, contributing, you know, women participants in the community. We've had a number on, have a few more. So thanks so much for joining us and thanks for all of your contributions in the community. >> Anne: Thank you very much. >> Sandhya: Thank you for having us. >> John and myself, we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the Cube at OpenStack Summit Boston, Massachusetts. Thanks for watching the Cube. (upbeat techno music)